From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Jan 2 16:14:48 2023 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2023 16:14:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB and LiFe Message-ID: <009e01d91eef$41279370$c376ba50$@glbcc.com> Hello all - best wishes for the new year. I have a client with an aging (dead) AGM (16x Concorde PVX-3050T) battery bank with two Sunny Island 5048 inverters (and a few SB in the mix too) in a GTWB configuration. Has anyone successfully replaced an AGM battery bank with a LiFe ESS solution with closed loop comms and Sunny Islands? Something like a Fortress eVault max? Or should I simply replace the existing AGM's with the same model batteries and let it go another 10 years? Thanks for the feedback! Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 09:15:03 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 07:15:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question Message-ID: <411D6522-9EA9-44FA-ACEA-57845285CE81@gmail.com> Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current settings, I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac charge It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time. I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem? And given the age a new board set is probably in order. Thoughts? Thx Jay From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 09:42:19 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 09:42:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Multi Mode Inverter Options Message-ID: Hey there, I have a client with a dead 24V Xantrex SW…It had a good 20+ year run with a few rebuilds. The customer is looking to upgrade their inverter, but keep their 24V battery bank. My first thoughts were Outback FX or Victron Quattro, but I am curious what others are using out there. It seems like 24V has been left in the dust with regards to more sophisticated multimode and hybrid inverters. Schnider makes a 24V SW but it has a short warranty and after a welded AC input relay I’m not a big fan of that model. Just wondering if I am missing any options out there? Kindly, Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 09:46:38 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 06:46:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Multi Mode Inverter Options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Samlex EVO4024 is supposed to be a very robust simple inverter. 120VAC output, AC charging, good value. Brad On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 6:44 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey there, > > I have a client with a dead 24V Xantrex SW…It had a good 20+ year run with > a few rebuilds. The customer is looking to upgrade their inverter, but keep > their 24V battery bank. My first thoughts were Outback FX or Victron > Quattro, but I am curious what others are using out there. It seems like > 24V has been left in the dust with regards to more sophisticated multimode > and hybrid inverters. Schnider makes a 24V SW but it has a short warranty > and after a welded AC input relay I’m not a big fan of that model. > > Just wondering if I am missing any options out there? > > Kindly, > > Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Tue Jan 3 10:18:18 2023 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 15:18:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB and LiFe In-Reply-To: <009e01d91eef$41279370$c376ba50$@glbcc.com> References: <009e01d91eef$41279370$c376ba50$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Hey Glenn, I just started running a LIFEPO4 battery with a Sunny Island, no closed loop communication but with settings pretty much what Fortress has on their Sunny Island sheet. Settings are lower than what some LIFE’s specify, to avoid a voltage jump / high voltage error at the end of the charge cycle from what I’ve seen. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Inaugural Certified PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at SunstruckConsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (mobile) From: Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 2, 2023 4:15 PM To: RE-Wrenches Cc: Glenn Burt Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB and LiFe Hello all – best wishes for the new year. I have a client with an aging (dead) AGM (16x Concorde PVX-3050T) battery bank with two Sunny Island 5048 inverters (and a few SB in the mix too) in a GTWB configuration. Has anyone successfully replaced an AGM battery bank with a LiFe ESS solution with closed loop comms and Sunny Islands? Something like a Fortress eVault max? Or should I simply replace the existing AGM’s with the same model batteries and let it go another 10 years? Thanks for the feedback! Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 11:08:43 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 08:08:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question In-Reply-To: <411D6522-9EA9-44FA-ACEA-57845285CE81@gmail.com> References: <411D6522-9EA9-44FA-ACEA-57845285CE81@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Jay You may want to remove the battery temp sensor and see what it does, an open/short in the sensor will send it all over to compensate for the range issue, the issue may also be in the temp compensation board inside the inverter. Jerry On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 6:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current > settings, > > I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following > > Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac charge > > It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging > Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds > Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place > > Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time. > > I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem? > > And given the age a new board set is probably in order. > > Thoughts? > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 11:38:26 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 08:38:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB and LiFe In-Reply-To: <009e01d91eef$41279370$c376ba50$@glbcc.com> References: <009e01d91eef$41279370$c376ba50$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Glen I have installed fortress Evaults on both the older and newer SMA SI inverter/chargers, you will need to make some changes to the charger config with the temp sensor. It is somewhat wild in the current state and must be locked down, it is not very difficult to do and makes a big difference on how the charger works. You will need to remove the battery temp sensor and install a rheostat with a fixed resistor to simulate the 25 C reading, the resistor gets you close but the rheostat can be adjusted for your particular climate and system. BTW, this goes for most any Li type battery. Outback is easier as the sensor unplugged defaults to 25 C. Jerry Fun Times!! On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 1:16 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello all – best wishes for the new year. > > > > I have a client with an aging (dead) AGM (16x Concorde PVX-3050T) battery > bank with two Sunny Island 5048 inverters (and a few SB in the mix too) in > a GTWB configuration. > > Has anyone successfully replaced an AGM battery bank with a LiFe ESS > solution with closed loop comms and Sunny Islands? > > Something like a Fortress eVault max? > > > > Or should I simply replace the existing AGM’s with the same model > batteries and let it go another 10 years? > > > > Thanks for the feedback! > > Glenn > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 11:41:44 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 08:41:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Multi Mode Inverter Options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Chris I would only look at outback, Date available and easy to access, can be easily connected to additional components in the future. Fun Times Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 6:43 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey there, > > I have a client with a dead 24V Xantrex SW…It had a good 20+ year run with > a few rebuilds. The customer is looking to upgrade their inverter, but keep > their 24V battery bank. My first thoughts were Outback FX or Victron > Quattro, but I am curious what others are using out there. It seems like > 24V has been left in the dust with regards to more sophisticated multimode > and hybrid inverters. Schnider makes a 24V SW but it has a short warranty > and after a welded AC input relay I’m not a big fan of that model. > > Just wondering if I am missing any options out there? > > Kindly, > > Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 14:14:41 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 12:14:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 22:13:19 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 22:13:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question In-Reply-To: <411D6522-9EA9-44FA-ACEA-57845285CE81@gmail.com> References: <411D6522-9EA9-44FA-ACEA-57845285CE81@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I have seen this a few times but usually with a generator that is not designed for hard wired system. I have a Ryobi work generator that does this on both of my outback systems. It says in the instructions that it is not to be used for stationary applications (ie normally grounded systems). John On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 9:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current settings, > > I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following > > Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac charge > > It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging > Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds > Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place > > Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time. > > I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem? > > And given the age a new board set is probably in order. > > Thoughts? > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 22:32:45 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 22:32:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V Multi Mode Inverter Options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would vote for Outback FX series. FIELD REPAIRABLE. Only down side is if he is using the multiple relays for a 3 wire start generator. John On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 11:42 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, Chris > I would only look at outback, Date available and easy to access, can be easily connected to additional components in the future. > Fun Times > > > Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 6:43 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hey there, >> >> I have a client with a dead 24V Xantrex SW…It had a good 20+ year run with a few rebuilds. The customer is looking to upgrade their inverter, but keep their 24V battery bank. My first thoughts were Outback FX or Victron Quattro, but I am curious what others are using out there. It seems like 24V has been left in the dust with regards to more sophisticated multimode and hybrid inverters. Schnider makes a 24V SW but it has a short warranty and after a welded AC input relay I’m not a big fan of that model. >> >> Just wondering if I am missing any options out there? >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris >> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 09:06:17 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 07:06:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B30CEF1-9345-4A51-825E-4A6C33EF1642@gmail.com> Hi john Good to hear from you. Your system charges at above Outback programmed amp setpoints? And in a sort of cyclical way? Sometimes it’s normal for an hour then will go to 2x charge rate then back down then maybe 1.5. I talked to a senior Outback tech and they haven’t heard of this issue. But if you say is true, how do you adjust the settings so it won’t trip the generator breaker? This one is already at 5aac on ac input and 5 aac on charge and it will still, not often trip the generator breaker. Thx Jay > On Jan 3, 2023, at 8:13 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > I have seen this a few times but usually with a generator that is not > designed for hard wired system. I have a Ryobi > work generator that does this on both of my outback systems. It says > in the instructions that it is not to be used for stationary > applications (ie normally grounded systems). > > John > >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 9:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current settings, >> >> I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following >> >> Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac charge >> >> It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging >> Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds >> Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place >> >> Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time. >> >> I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem? >> >> And given the age a new board set is probably in order. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Thx >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Jan 4 10:22:26 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 10:22:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] gravity storage of excess PV generation Message-ID: Happy New year All, I'm sure most have heard of this technology, using excess PV-powered motors to raise large weights to the top of a tower, then slowly lowering them to release energy, the motors now rotating as generators. I've only read articles of a few of these under construction on a utility scale. I wonder if this has been tried on a smaller scale anywhere. Thoughts? Resources? Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 11:21:36 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 08:21:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] gravity storage of excess PV generation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, wrenches, There are several gravity storage systems out there in the renewable energy industry. I did water lift and drain back through lift pumps and hydro-electric. No different than all storage systems, it's all about capacity. Great talks Jerry On Wed, Jan 4, 2023, 7:23 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Happy New year All, > > I'm sure most have heard of this technology, using excess PV-powered > motors to raise large weights to the top of a tower, then slowly lowering > them to release energy, the motors now rotating as generators. > > I've only read articles of a few of these under construction on a utility > scale. I wonder if this has been tried on a smaller scale anywhere. > Thoughts? Resources? Thanks. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jan 4 11:33:40 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 08:33:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question In-Reply-To: <2B30CEF1-9345-4A51-825E-4A6C33EF1642@gmail.com> References: <2B30CEF1-9345-4A51-825E-4A6C33EF1642@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay. The AC input Amps should be the "Total" Amperage the inverter uses for pass-thru and charging. Having the AC In at five and the Charger at five may be what is causing the pulsing. Something else to consider the charging output of the inverter is not monitored very closely so there is a chance of sugaring/pulsing, but usually, 20-30 seconds is the most you can see it fluctuate. I have seen this in the field myself as well. So if the Generator has a max peak of 10 amps output, I would set up the AC input at 8 to 9 amps and the charging amps to 4-5. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 6:07 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi john > > Good to hear from you. > > Your system charges at above Outback programmed amp setpoints? > And in a sort of cyclical way? Sometimes it’s normal for an hour then > will go to 2x charge rate then back down then maybe 1.5. > > I talked to a senior Outback tech and they haven’t heard of this issue. > > But if you say is true, how do you adjust the settings so it won’t trip > the generator breaker? > > This one is already at 5aac on ac input and 5 aac on charge and it will > still, not often trip the generator breaker. > > Thx > Jay > > > > > On Jan 3, 2023, at 8:13 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Jay, > > I have seen this a few times but usually with a generator that is not > > designed for hard wired system. I have a Ryobi > > work generator that does this on both of my outback systems. It says > > in the instructions that it is not to be used for stationary > > applications (ie normally grounded systems). > > > > John > > > >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 9:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > >> wrote: > >> > >> Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current > settings, > >> > >> I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following > >> > >> Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac charge > >> > >> It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging > >> Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds > >> Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place > >> > >> Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time. > >> > >> I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem? > >> > >> And given the age a new board set is probably in order. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> Thx > >> Jay > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 18:49:10 2023 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 18:49:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] gravity storage of excess PV generation Message-ID: A one metric ton weight on a 30 meter tall tower has a potential energy of 81 watt hours. I’d stick with batteries. The only places gravity storage works are where you have “free” height and huge amounts of free weight. That is, an existing lake at a good elevation for pumped storage. But on that note, it’s cheaper to buy and opportunistically fill a 1,000 gallon plastic storage tank than to buy the batteries needed to fill that storage tank on demand. Store the final product if you can. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 17:50:14 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2023 15:50:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problem Outback update Message-ID: <8204069F-C5DF-4B95-802C-5322D5E815E1@gmail.com> Hi all It turns out it was the voltage regulator in the generator. It was replaced and the inverter acts normally. Have a nice weekend Jay From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Jan 10 13:06:44 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 18:06:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover LiFe battery question Message-ID: Is the Lynx II gateway required for battery to battery comms? Model 42-48-6650 We will be installing with an inverter that cannot communicate. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 14:21:12 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 11:21:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover LiFe battery question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A5A8208-D38C-4CC8-A1E5-9E35CD593D55@gmail.com> It’s not required but it has the only reliable means of generator start stop. There are three relays that can be programmed. You can’t get accurate battery state of charge by using voltage except near empty or full. The LynkII also has a little bar graph showing state of charge to the nearest 10%. Unfortunately it does not connect to a LAN yet. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 10, 2023, at 10:06 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Is the Lynx II gateway required for battery to battery comms? > Model 42-48-6650 > We will be installing with an inverter that cannot communicate. > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jan 12 09:39:38 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2023 09:39:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3524 VFX delay Message-ID: <19d54de3eb273312535faa789dcbc5bf@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, A pair of off grid Outback VFX 3524 inverters are being used as an AC coupled backup system. They have worked flawlessly for many years. During a recent power outage it was reported that the house was dark for 20 minutes before the backup kicked on. Does anyone know what could have caused the delay? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Jan 12 12:02:32 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2023 17:02:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Problems In-Reply-To: <83a57e00-a2eb-87e9-abb1-82467bca5088@solarray.com> References: <8d28685f-f829-b3e9-377c-b85988eee4ca@solarray.com> <83a57e00-a2eb-87e9-abb1-82467bca5088@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, I'm curious if your Fortress system is doing better now. Fortress used to do their support using a platform that was open to the public. It allowed anyone who wanted to see what they had suggested to other people. I've seen them recommend a one-time charge of up to 56V to get everything in sync. When charging above the normal charge voltage, it's advisable to use a low current. As far as the master/slave configureation... the batteries don't control how much they discharge/recharge. They shut themselves off for certain protective reasons, and they balance themselves when they're above a certain voltage, but other than that, they don't have any control. The master/slave is for communication and safety purposes only. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 1:14 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Problems I finally heard back from Fortress, I'm going to try their suggestion of "equalizing" the batteries at 55.5 v, and adjust some settings. I'll report back to the list on what I come up with. This is an interesting application: quad stack of VFX inverters with Midnite CCs. Using the aux out on the Classic to control a relay to turn on/off the inverters for LVD, since Outback programming (like Schneider) won't allow LVD settings above 48v. Ray On 11/16/2022 12:40 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Ray, I would suggest pushing the latest firmware update to both units. https://www.fortresspower.com/firmware/ re: tech support… I have had good luck speaking directly to Tom: Thomas Honey Fortress Power Applications Engineering (215) 613-4318 x4318 tomh at fortresspower.com I agree that Fortress’ Discord, online ticketing system and phone support are subpar. Call me old school, but an answered phone call when on-site is a must have feature of any manufacturer. Hope this helps, -Chris On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 2:20 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Ray, I have been having a difficult time communicating with Fortress as well. I filed a support ticket several times and only got a response a couple of days later asking another question that was easily answered, but then do not receive any reply to that without filing another support ticket, which again takes days for them to respond to. Very unsatisfactory and frustrating after having invested in 7 eVault Max for a long time client. Don't have any suggestions for you. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ [https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1MQF8aTcFNnBR59ia5JAm1DsPHCxzNkPx&export=download] Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 2:02 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: Greetings Fellow Wrenches; Based on glowing reports from the RE list, I finally used Fortress for a battery replacement for a long time customer. Overall, it seems to be a better solution than others I've seen. However, we are having issues. First the two batteries are supposed to be linked together in a master/ slave configuration, but they charge and discharge unevenly, and have SOC often 20% different. Batteries are connected to a common buss with equal length 4/0 cables. I've been truly disappointed with Fortress customer support. First, I've called multiple times over the past two weeks, and never got through to anyone. Their online support system is quite flawed as well, and I had a very difficult time even setting up a support ticket. Now I can't even log in to view the support ticket, and I've only received one email back asking if I had properly paralleled the batteries. Has anyone else had a hard time with Fortress support? Does anyone have a direct contact? Customer is beyond pissed now, after almost 2 weeks hearing nothing, and having spent tens of thousands. Thanks; Ray Walters Remote Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Jan 12 12:31:27 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2023 12:31:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 3524 VFX delay In-Reply-To: <1673537614.928921386@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <19d54de3eb273312535faa789dcbc5bf@redwoodalliance.org> <1673537614.928921386@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <4b9172b1b9c089addcb36051896e5722@redwoodalliance.org> Would that mean that the control board needs to be replaced in the master? --- On 2023-01-12 10:33, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > stuck relay? > > On Thursday, January 12, 2023 6:39am, "Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" said: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> A pair of off grid Outback VFX 3524 inverters are being used as an AC >> coupled backup system. They have worked flawlessly for many years. >> >> During a recent power outage it was reported that the house was dark for >> 20 minutes before the backup kicked on. Does anyone know what could have >> caused the delay? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician's License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Jan 13 13:20:25 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 13:20:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone know if you can get any old used Envoy-R (the one in the attached image) off ebay to replace a failed one? If the used one used to be associated with another site, would there be issues with installing it somewhere else? Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1673559286911.png Type: image/png Size: 204891 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 13:33:10 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 11:33:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq transformer based inverters at these surges. I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) What are my options? Schneider XW Pro 6848 Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian should? I appreciate your input! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 13 13:41:16 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 11:41:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF06A0C-3E2E-4464-B079-7EC370D37775@starlightsolar.com> Mac, What was the lowest voltage measured at inverter battery terminals during the inrush measurement? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq transformer based inverters at these surges. I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) What are my options? Schneider XW Pro 6848 Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian should? I appreciate your input! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 13:48:01 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 11:48:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: <4BF06A0C-3E2E-4464-B079-7EC370D37775@starlightsolar.com> References: <4BF06A0C-3E2E-4464-B079-7EC370D37775@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Good question Larry, Rock solid 52V on a lithium battery system. Doesn't appear to be a battery problem at all. On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 11:41 AM Starlight wrote: > Mac, > > What was the lowest voltage measured at inverter battery terminals during > the inrush measurement? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 > years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, > compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of > equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for > the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse > lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc > > He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a test > with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was a > little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq > transformer based inverters at these surges. > > I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V > loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 > (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) > > What are my options? > Schneider XW Pro 6848 > Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) > Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly > > Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only > loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. > > Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian > should? > > I appreciate your input! > > -- > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jan 13 13:52:18 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 13:52:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: <4BF06A0C-3E2E-4464-B079-7EC370D37775@starlightsolar.com> References: <4BF06A0C-3E2E-4464-B079-7EC370D37775@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Have they already installed soft starts on these motors?  Chris On 1/13/2023 1:41 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Mac, > > What was the lowest voltage measured at inverter battery terminals > during the inrush measurement? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about > 10 years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, > compressors vacuums etc.  They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of > equipment.  Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads > for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten > worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc > > He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc.  I tried a > test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads.  I > was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the > low freq transformer based inverters at these surges. > > I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the > 240V loads will also overload it.  I got an inrush measurement of > 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut > off) > > What are my options? > Schneider XW Pro 6848 > Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) > Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly > > Any others I should consider?  He does have some significant 120 only > loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. > > Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the > Radian should? > > I appreciate your input! > > -- > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jan 13 13:54:08 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 11:54:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: <4BF06A0C-3E2E-4464-B079-7EC370D37775@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <061D0B0B-0833-41A5-80BA-16C9191DF687@starlightsolar.com> Any new AC equipment connected and running during test? Scope the waveform during equipment start to see if the distortion is severe. I have seen a 300W load make a mess of a Magnum AC waveform. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:48 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Good question Larry, Rock solid 52V on a lithium battery system. Doesn't appear to be a battery problem at all. On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 11:41 AM Starlight > wrote: Mac, What was the lowest voltage measured at inverter battery terminals during the inrush measurement? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq transformer based inverters at these surges. I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) What are my options? Schneider XW Pro 6848 Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian should? I appreciate your input! -- Mac Lewis _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bzp at brick.net Fri Jan 13 14:24:12 2023 From: bzp at brick.net (bzp) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 13:24:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: <061D0B0B-0833-41A5-80BA-16C9191DF687@starlightsolar.com> References: <4BF06A0C-3E2E-4464-B079-7EC370D37775@starlightsolar.com> <061D0B0B-0833-41A5-80BA-16C9191DF687@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <491735dc-93a1-e6ed-d538-c4e680417209@brick.net> Larry. Hera's an idea. Put a 1:1 isolation transformer of suitable power rating between the inverter and load. The iron core will act as a energy storage element allowing for a cleaner ac waveform during start. Frank BZP On 1/13/2023 12:54 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Any new AC equipment connected and running during test? Scope the > waveform during equipment start to see if the distortion is severe. I > have seen a 300W load make a mess of a Magnum AC waveform. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:48 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Good question Larry, > > Rock solid 52V on a lithium battery system. Doesn't appear to be a > battery problem at all. > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 11:41 AM Starlight wrote: > > Mac, > > What was the lowest voltage measured at inverter battery terminals > during the inrush measurement? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for > about 10 years on a Magnum 4448.  He's got some large loads, > planers, saws, compressors vacuums etc.  They are really nice, > heavy duty pieces of equipment.  Amazingly, the Magnum has been > able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, but he > has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load > issue), brown outs, dimming etc > > He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc.  I > tried a test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large > motor loads.  I was a little surprised by that but I know they > aren't as good as the low freq transformer based inverters at > these surges. > > I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because > the 240V loads will also overload it.  I got an inrush measurement > of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark > would shut off) > > What are my options? > Schneider XW Pro 6848 > Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) > Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly > > Any others I should consider?  He does have some significant 120 > only loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. > > Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the > Radian should? > > I appreciate your input! > > -- > Mac Lewis > > * > > > * > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 14:57:33 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 12:57:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F24B646-8410-4BEB-A2CE-300149827347@gmail.com> Hi Mac The radian is low voltage transformer Based. Has hella surge capacity I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with that platform. Regardless of system I’d install soft start/vfd on the larger units. Just easier on everything. The solark 12 doesn’t seem to be good for larger loads and doesn’t do out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won’t run even though its under its rating. Good luck Jay > On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc > > He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq transformer based inverters at these surges. > > I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) > > What are my options? > Schneider XW Pro 6848 > Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) > Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly > > Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. > > Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian should? > > I appreciate your input! > > -- > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 13 15:54:45 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 12:54:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: <8F24B646-8410-4BEB-A2CE-300149827347@gmail.com> References: <8F24B646-8410-4BEB-A2CE-300149827347@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19f029ee424cd0e655119aab0b9edecf@sti.net> There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A great monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the last 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-01-13 11:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Mac > > The radian is low voltage transformer > Based. Has hella surge capacity > > I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with > that platform. > > Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. > Just easier on everything. > > The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do > out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be > better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW > and radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run > even though its under its rating. > > Good luck > > Jay > >> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about >> 10 years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, >> compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of >> equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads >> for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten >> worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc >> >> He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a >> test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I >> was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the >> low freq transformer based inverters at these surges. >> >> I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the >> 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of >> 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut >> off) >> >> What are my options? >> Schneider XW Pro 6848 >> Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) >> Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly >> >> Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only >> loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. >> >> Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the >> Radian should? >> >> I appreciate your input! >> >> -- >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jan 13 16:14:15 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 16:14:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Be very careful with old units on eBay. They may not be usable. There was a security certificate update that was necessary to keep units communicating with Enlighten. If the unit was offline and the update was not applied, it was essentially bricked from a remote upgradeability standpoint. I can't remember how I got around that once - there was someone in engineering that I think was able to remotely recover it, but it wasn't something they necessarily are willing or want to do. It stinks to have to upgrade people to a hardwired Envoy S or Envoy S-Metered, but ultimately its a better unit with ITK capability and a better warranty. On that note, I'm going to be replacing quite a few very soon due to submersion issues from Hurricane Ian. I'm not even thinking of offering the Envoy-R option. Everyone has to upgrade. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 1:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone know if you can get any old used Envoy-R (the one in the > attached image) off ebay to replace a failed one? If the used one used to > be associated with another site, would there be issues with installing it > somewhere else? > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 13 17:22:55 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 14:22:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Shipping Message-ID: Friends: A while ago I posted some questions about shipping. I know this is tangential to solar installation, but you can’t install what you can’t get. I got my rail but there were some hiccups. I thought some of you might benefit from my experience: I contracted for the shipping using Shiply. The vendor sent the wrong quantity of the wrong rail and it arrived damaged. I refused the shipment. I was also charge for use of a lift gate even though I used my forklift. I turns out I was liable for the cost to ship back the wrong, defective rail. This was because I contracted the shipment. Fortunately the vendor paid for the return and did so promptly. Here is what I will do next time: 1. I will always pay for damage insurance. 2. On the PO I will put a note that the shipper is responsible for paying for return shipping in the case of incorrect parts or damage that could be attributed to poor packaging. 3. Before contracting for the shipping I will insist I have a contact number for the vendors warehouse foreperson. 4. I will ask the foreperson to send me photographs of the shipment after it is packaged. I want the photos to show the quantity, the part number label and that the packaging is adequate. 5. Only after I see all is correct will I approve the pickup. 6. At the time of delivery, and before the driver leaves, I will photograph the unloading using my forklift with the delivery truck in-frame. I will check carefully for damages. If there is damage to the contents I will refuse the shipment. If there is damage to that packaging I will photograph that with the truck or driver in frame and note the damage on the BOL. I hope none of you ever have this many problems with shipping. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Fri Jan 13 19:32:24 2023 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 00:32:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Enphase sells the Envoy-S Standard which includes a 120V cord. These can be purchased on the Enphase store at: https://enphase.com/store/communication/gateway-s-standard The Envoy-S Standard does not require hardwiring. Gateway-S Standard | Enphase The Enphase Gateway-S Standard is an integral component of the Enphase Home Energy Solution, as it bridges the communication between Enphase Microinverters on the rooftop with the cloud-based Enphase monitoring software. enphase.com Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 1:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Be very careful with old units on eBay. They may not be usable. There was a security certificate update that was necessary to keep units communicating with Enlighten. If the unit was offline and the update was not applied, it was essentially bricked from a remote upgradeability standpoint. I can't remember how I got around that once - there was someone in engineering that I think was able to remotely recover it, but it wasn't something they necessarily are willing or want to do. It stinks to have to upgrade people to a hardwired Envoy S or Envoy S-Metered, but ultimately its a better unit with ITK capability and a better warranty. On that note, I'm going to be replacing quite a few very soon due to submersion issues from Hurricane Ian. I'm not even thinking of offering the Envoy-R option. Everyone has to upgrade. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 1:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi all, Does anyone know if you can get any old used Envoy-R (the one in the attached image) off ebay to replace a failed one? If the used one used to be associated with another site, would there be issues with installing it somewhere else? Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jan 13 19:33:18 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 19:33:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options Message-ID: According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie will...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A great monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the last 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges.   Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-01-13 11:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:   Hi Mac   The radian is low voltage transformer Based. Has hella surge capacity    I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with that platform.    Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. Just easier on everything.   The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even though its under its rating.    Good luck   Jay               On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello Wrenches,   I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years on a Magnum 4448.  He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors vacuums etc.  They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment.  Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc   He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc.  I tried a test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads.  I was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq transformer based inverters at these surges.   I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V loads will also overload it.  I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off)     What are my options? Schneider XW Pro 6848 Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly   Any others I should consider?  He does have some significant 120 only loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice.   Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian should?   I appreciate your input!   -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Jan 13 19:34:25 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 19:34:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Nick. Is that available through distribution at wholesale pricing? Jason On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 7:32 PM Nick Soleil wrote: > Enphase sells the Envoy-S Standard which includes a 120V cord. These can > be purchased on the Enphase store at: > https://enphase.com/store/communication/gateway-s-standard > > The Envoy-S Standard does not require hardwiring. > Gateway-S Standard | Enphase > > The Enphase Gateway-S Standard is an integral component of the Enphase > Home Energy Solution, as it bridges the communication between Enphase > Microinverters on the rooftop with the cloud-based Enphase monitoring > software. > enphase.com > > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 13, 2023 1:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement > > *EXTERNAL EMAIL* - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments.* > > > > > Be very careful with old units on eBay. They may not be usable. There was > a security certificate update that was necessary to keep units > communicating with Enlighten. If the unit was offline and the update was > not applied, it was essentially bricked from a remote upgradeability > standpoint. I can't remember how I got around that once - there was someone > in engineering that I think was able to remotely recover it, but it wasn't > something they necessarily are willing or want to do. > > It stinks to have to upgrade people to a hardwired Envoy S or Envoy > S-Metered, but ultimately its a better unit with ITK capability and a > better warranty. > > On that note, I'm going to be replacing quite a few very soon due to > submersion issues from Hurricane Ian. I'm not even thinking of offering the > Envoy-R option. Everyone has to upgrade. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 1:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Does anyone know if you can get any old used Envoy-R (the one in the > attached image) off ebay to replace a failed one? If the used one used to > be associated with another site, would there be issues with installing it > somewhere else? > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jan 13 19:36:39 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 19:36:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement Message-ID: <40p3b0f6nkr0436afqgaf83l.1673656506907@email.lge.com> We too have a couple of customers whose Envoys have done the offline, memory filled, then bricked issue and we are waiting for a good solution to be able to offer them.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Jan 13, 2023 1:21 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Dave Tedeyan;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacementHi all, Does anyone know if you can get any old used Envoy-R (the one in the attached image) off ebay to replace a failed one? If the used one used to be associated with another site, would there be issues with installing it somewhere else?Cheers, Dave-- Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solarp: he | him | hisa: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850w: www.sungineersolar.comc: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 21:53:46 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 21:53:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet table saw, large 20” 240V bench planer, chop saws, compressors and a vacuum system. A single Sol Ark 15K takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that inductive load snag with the smaller models has been resolved with the 15K. Best, Chris On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie will... > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter > options > > There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A great > monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the last > 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* > > > On 2023-01-13 11:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > Hi Mac > > The radian is low voltage transformer > Based. Has hella surge capacity > > I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with > that platform. > > Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. Just > easier on everything. > > The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do out > of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be better, > not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and radian. > Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even though its > under its rating. > > Good luck > > Jay > > > > > > > > > On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > <%3Cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 > years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, > compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of > equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for > the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse > lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc > > He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a test > with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was a > little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq > transformer based inverters at these surges. > > I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V > loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 > (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) > > What are my options? > Schneider XW Pro 6848 > Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) > Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly > > Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only > loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. > > Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian > should? > > I appreciate your input! > > -- > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > <%0D+RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Fri Jan 13 23:24:40 2023 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don energysolarnow.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 04:24:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envoy R replacement (Dave Tedayan) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave You can get a used Envoy-R to talk to the local microinverters, but you will not be able to reassign it to the new site. You will have to beg Enphase to do this for you. Sometimes this costs money if they think you are reassigning the whole system to a new owner. But why bother? The Envoy-R was superseded by the Envoy-S that can do Wifi and talk to the app in AP mode as well. Don Barch Energy Solar ________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2023 13:20:25 -0500 From: Dave Tedeyan To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, Does anyone know if you can get any old used Envoy-R (the one in the attached image) off ebay to replace a failed one? If the used one used to be associated with another site, would there be issues with installing it somewhere else? Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Sat Jan 14 02:41:41 2023 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 07:41:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My experience is that this was a low volume product that most distributors don't stock. We sell it on the Enphase store as a service to installers and homeowners. . Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 4:34 PM To: Nick Soleil Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Thanks, Nick. Is that available through distribution at wholesale pricing? Jason On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 7:32 PM Nick Soleil > wrote: Enphase sells the Envoy-S Standard which includes a 120V cord. These can be purchased on the Enphase store at: https://enphase.com/store/communication/gateway-s-standard The Envoy-S Standard does not require hardwiring. Gateway-S Standard | Enphase The Enphase Gateway-S Standard is an integral component of the Enphase Home Energy Solution, as it bridges the communication between Enphase Microinverters on the rooftop with the cloud-based Enphase monitoring software. enphase.com Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 1:14 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Envoy-R replacement EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Be very careful with old units on eBay. They may not be usable. There was a security certificate update that was necessary to keep units communicating with Enlighten. If the unit was offline and the update was not applied, it was essentially bricked from a remote upgradeability standpoint. I can't remember how I got around that once - there was someone in engineering that I think was able to remotely recover it, but it wasn't something they necessarily are willing or want to do. It stinks to have to upgrade people to a hardwired Envoy S or Envoy S-Metered, but ultimately its a better unit with ITK capability and a better warranty. On that note, I'm going to be replacing quite a few very soon due to submersion issues from Hurricane Ian. I'm not even thinking of offering the Envoy-R option. Everyone has to upgrade. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 1:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi all, Does anyone know if you can get any old used Envoy-R (the one in the attached image) off ebay to replace a failed one? If the used one used to be associated with another site, would there be issues with installing it somewhere else? Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Jan 14 10:33:28 2023 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 10:33:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I run the XW6848 in my shop. When running my CNC plasma table the XW will shutdown due to exceeding its output rating if it is a long cut on metal when the 4HP compressor kicks on. I also have a Midnite Solar Rosey, both are connected to the same battery so it's an equal comparison. The Rosy inverter will surge right through and finish the job, the XW is not in the same league when comparing surge capability. A bonus is that the Rosey is really quiet as it does not have that big heavy transformer making noise under heavy load. It is easy to install as it is not as heavy. So far it's a game changer in regards to inverter hardware that I have tested. On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:54 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet table saw, large 20” > 240V bench planer, chop saws, compressors and a vacuum system. A single Sol > Ark 15K takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that inductive > load snag with the smaller models has been resolved with the 15K. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie >> will... >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >> *Date: *Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter >> options >> >> There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A great >> monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the last >> 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* >> >> >> On 2023-01-13 11:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> >> Hi Mac >> >> The radian is low voltage transformer >> Based. Has hella surge capacity >> >> I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with >> that platform. >> >> Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. Just >> easier on everything. >> >> The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do out >> of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be better, >> not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and radian. >> Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even though its >> under its rating. >> >> Good luck >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> <%3Cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 >> years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, >> compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of >> equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for >> the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse >> lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc >> >> He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a >> test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was >> a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq >> transformer based inverters at these surges. >> >> I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V >> loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 >> (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) >> >> What are my options? >> Schneider XW Pro 6848 >> Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) >> Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly >> >> Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only >> loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. >> >> Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian >> should? >> >> I appreciate your input! >> >> -- >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> <%0D+RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 14 11:20:49 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 09:20:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fully appreciate everyone's input. The Midnite Rosie sounds interesting for sure. Midnite is a great company with great support. Smart people answer the phone and that really counts for a lot. How are you getting your hands on these? I can't seem to find much info, no spec sheets etc. None of my vendors have them and Midnite is estimating Apr 2023 as the release date. On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 8:34 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I run the XW6848 in my shop. When running my CNC plasma table the XW will > shutdown due to exceeding its output rating if it is a long cut on metal > when the 4HP compressor kicks on. > I also have a Midnite Solar Rosey, both are connected to the same battery > so it's an equal comparison. The Rosy inverter will surge right through and > finish the job, the XW is not in the same league when comparing surge > capability. > > A bonus is that the Rosey is really quiet as it does not have that big > heavy transformer making noise under heavy load. It is easy to install as > it is not as heavy. So far it's a game changer in regards to inverter > hardware that I have tested. > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:54 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet table saw, large >> 20” 240V bench planer, chop saws, compressors and a vacuum system. A single >> Sol Ark 15K takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that >> inductive load snag with the smaller models has been resolved with the 15K. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie >>> will... >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; >>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter >>> options >>> >>> There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A great >>> monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the last >>> 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* >>> >>> >>> On 2023-01-13 11:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Mac >>> >>> The radian is low voltage transformer >>> Based. Has hella surge capacity >>> >>> I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with >>> that platform. >>> >>> Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. >>> Just easier on everything. >>> >>> The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do >>> out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be >>> better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and >>> radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even >>> though its under its rating. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> <%3Cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 >>> years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, >>> compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of >>> equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for >>> the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse >>> lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc >>> >>> He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a >>> test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was >>> a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq >>> transformer based inverters at these surges. >>> >>> I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the >>> 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A >>> Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) >>> >>> What are my options? >>> Schneider XW Pro 6848 >>> Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) >>> Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly >>> >>> Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only >>> loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. >>> >>> Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian >>> should? >>> >>> I appreciate your input! >>> >>> -- >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> <%0D+RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Jan 14 14:40:53 2023 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 14:40:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am told the RE (off grid version) will be available through normal distribution in 3 weeks. As a Beta tester for this inverter I can say the use of SiC Fets is a game changer. On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 11:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Fully appreciate everyone's input. > > The Midnite Rosie sounds interesting for sure. Midnite is a great company > with great support. Smart people answer the phone and that really counts > for a lot. > > How are you getting your hands on these? I can't seem to find much info, > no spec sheets etc. None of my vendors have them and Midnite is estimating > Apr 2023 as the release date. > > > > On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 8:34 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I run the XW6848 in my shop. When running my CNC plasma table the XW will >> shutdown due to exceeding its output rating if it is a long cut on metal >> when the 4HP compressor kicks on. >> I also have a Midnite Solar Rosey, both are connected to the same battery >> so it's an equal comparison. The Rosy inverter will surge right through and >> finish the job, the XW is not in the same league when comparing surge >> capability. >> >> A bonus is that the Rosey is really quiet as it does not have that big >> heavy transformer making noise under heavy load. It is easy to install as >> it is not as heavy. So far it's a game changer in regards to inverter >> hardware that I have tested. >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:54 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet table saw, large >>> 20” 240V bench planer, chop saws, compressors and a vacuum system. A single >>> Sol Ark 15K takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that >>> inductive load snag with the smaller models has been resolved with the 15K. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie >>>> will... >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>>> >>>> ------ Original message------ >>>> *From: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >>>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM >>>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>>> *Cc: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; >>>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid >>>> inverter options >>>> >>>> There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A >>>> great monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the >>>> last 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2023-01-13 11:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Mac >>>> >>>> The radian is low voltage transformer >>>> Based. Has hella surge capacity >>>> >>>> I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with >>>> that platform. >>>> >>>> Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. >>>> Just easier on everything. >>>> >>>> The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do >>>> out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be >>>> better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and >>>> radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even >>>> though its under its rating. >>>> >>>> Good luck >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> <%3Cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 >>>> years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, >>>> compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of >>>> equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for >>>> the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse >>>> lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc >>>> >>>> He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a >>>> test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was >>>> a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq >>>> transformer based inverters at these surges. >>>> >>>> I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the >>>> 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A >>>> Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) >>>> >>>> What are my options? >>>> Schneider XW Pro 6848 >>>> Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) >>>> Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly >>>> >>>> Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only >>>> loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. >>>> >>>> Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian >>>> should? >>>> >>>> I appreciate your input! >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> <%0D+RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> H_802-728-3059 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Sat Jan 14 17:13:09 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 14:13:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34f2d2ba-cb26-220e-f912-f816de7f03fa@midnitesolar.com> Three (3) weeks is also what I am being told.   Part of the delay was that ETL/Intertek dropped the ball, big time. Actually, ETL ran out of brains and we had to go to another NRTL altogether for inverters. And yes, it does surge very well. Merry new year, all ! 🌜boB🌛 On 1/14/2023 11:40 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > I am told the RE (off grid version) will be available through normal > distribution in 3 weeks. >  As a Beta tester for this inverter I can say the use of SiC Fets is a > game changer. > > On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 11:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Fully appreciate everyone's input. > > The Midnite Rosie sounds interesting for sure.  Midnite is a great > company with great support.  Smart people answer the phone and > that really counts for a lot. > > How are you getting your hands on these?  I can't seem to find > much info, no spec sheets etc.  None of my vendors have them and > Midnite is estimating Apr 2023 as the release date. > > > > On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 8:34 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I run the XW6848 in my shop. When running my CNC plasma table > the XW will shutdown due to exceeding its output rating if it > is a long cut on metal when the 4HP compressor kicks on. > I also have a Midnite Solar Rosey, both are connected to the > same battery so it's an equal comparison. The Rosy inverter > will surge right through and finish the job, the XW is not in  > the same league when comparing surge capability. > >  A bonus is that the Rosey is really quiet as it does not have > that big heavy transformer making noise under heavy load. It > is easy to install as it is not as heavy. So far it's a game > changer in regards to inverter hardware that I have tested. > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:54 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet > table saw, large 20” 240V bench planer, chop saws, > compressors and a vacuum system. A single Sol Ark 15K > takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that > inductive load snag with the smaller models has been > resolved with the 15K. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > According to a seminar I just attended, the new > Midnite Solar Rosie will... > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and > spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer > off-grid inverter options > > There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW > pro 6948. A great monitoring platform and much better > support/installer training in the last 18 months. > Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines > don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail > offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 > * > > > On 2023-01-13 11 :57 am, Jay via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi Mac >> The radian is low voltage transformer >> Based. Has hella surge capacity >> I would consider what web based monitoring system he >> wants and go with that platform. >> Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on >> the larger units. Just easier on everything. >> The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger >> loads and doesn't do out of balance well, and limited >> to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be better, not >> sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs >> XW and radian. Both run stuff over their rating which >> the SolA won't run even though its under its rating. >> Good luck >> Jay >> >>> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via >>> RE-wrenches > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent >>> wood shop for about 10 years on a Magnum 4448.  He's >>> got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors >>> vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces >>> of equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to >>> start these loads for the most part for 10 >>> years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse >>> lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc >>> He wants to upgrade the system, get remote >>> monitoring etc.  I tried a test with a Sol-Ark 12, >>> and it won't start these large motor loads.  I was a >>> little surprised by that but I know they aren't as >>> good as the low freq transformer based inverters at >>> these surges. >>> I confirmed that its not just an overload from >>> imbalance because the 240V loads will also overload >>> it.  I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 >>> (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would >>> shut off) >>> What are my options? >>> Schneider XW Pro 6848 >>> Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) >>> Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and >>> not user friendly >>> Any others I should consider?  He does have some >>> significant 120 only loads so I don't think the >>> Outback vfxr are a good choice. >>> Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start >>> this load, the Radian should? >>> I appreciate your input! >>> -- >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Jan 14 17:37:52 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2023 17:37:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: <34f2d2ba-cb26-220e-f912-f816de7f03fa@midnitesolar.com> References: <34f2d2ba-cb26-220e-f912-f816de7f03fa@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Hello i have an XW Pro that starts a 2 HP induction motor reliably, i noticed th scope indicates battery voltage current issue, be sure your batteries can supply the starting surge. I recently installed a new set of batteries. Some not all Li can surge. On Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 5:13 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Three (3) weeks is also what I am being told. Part of the delay was that > ETL/Intertek dropped the ball, big time. > > Actually, ETL ran out of brains and we had to go to another NRTL > altogether for inverters. > > And yes, it does surge very well. > > Merry new year, all ! > > 🌜boB🌛 > > On 1/14/2023 11:40 AM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I am told the RE (off grid version) will be available through normal > distribution in 3 weeks. > As a Beta tester for this inverter I can say the use of SiC Fets is a > game changer. > > On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 11:22 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Fully appreciate everyone's input. >> >> The Midnite Rosie sounds interesting for sure. Midnite is a great >> company with great support. Smart people answer the phone and that really >> counts for a lot. >> >> How are you getting your hands on these? I can't seem to find much info, >> no spec sheets etc. None of my vendors have them and Midnite is estimating >> Apr 2023 as the release date. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 8:34 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I run the XW6848 in my shop. When running my CNC plasma table the XW >>> will shutdown due to exceeding its output rating if it is a long cut on >>> metal when the 4HP compressor kicks on. >>> I also have a Midnite Solar Rosey, both are connected to the same >>> battery so it's an equal comparison. The Rosy inverter will surge right >>> through and finish the job, the XW is not in the same league when >>> comparing surge capability. >>> >>> A bonus is that the Rosey is really quiet as it does not have that big >>> heavy transformer making noise under heavy load. It is easy to install as >>> it is not as heavy. So far it's a game changer in regards to inverter >>> hardware that I have tested. >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:54 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet table saw, large >>>> 20” 240V bench planer, chop saws, compressors and a vacuum system. A single >>>> Sol Ark 15K takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that >>>> inductive load snag with the smaller models has been resolved with the 15K. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie >>>>> will... >>>>> >>>>> -Glenn >>>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>>>> >>>>> ------ Original message------ >>>>> *From: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >>>>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM >>>>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>>>> *Cc: *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; >>>>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid >>>>> inverter options >>>>> >>>>> There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A >>>>> great monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the >>>>> last 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>>> text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2023-01-13 11 <2023-01-13%2011>:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mac >>>>> >>>>> The radian is low voltage transformer >>>>> Based. Has hella surge capacity >>>>> >>>>> I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with >>>>> that platform. >>>>> >>>>> Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. >>>>> Just easier on everything. >>>>> >>>>> The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do >>>>> out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be >>>>> better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and >>>>> radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even >>>>> though its under its rating. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>>> <%3Cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>> >>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>> >>>>> I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about >>>>> 10 years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, >>>>> compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of >>>>> equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for >>>>> the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse >>>>> lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc >>>>> >>>>> He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a >>>>> test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was >>>>> a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq >>>>> transformer based inverters at these surges. >>>>> >>>>> I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the >>>>> 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A >>>>> Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) >>>>> >>>>> What are my options? >>>>> Schneider XW Pro 6848 >>>>> Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) >>>>> Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly >>>>> >>>>> Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only >>>>> loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. >>>>> >>>>> Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the >>>>> Radian should? >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate your input! >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Mac Lewis >>>>> >>>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> <%0D+RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Chris Sparadeo >>>> >>>> >>>> C_802-369-4458 >>>> H_802-728-3059 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jan 16 13:53:47 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 10:53:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c82858365fe4a56796c27882c099097@sti.net> Happy to hear that ! When it is on the market and gets reviewed and tested for split phase balance, surge, and has a networked/monitored all in one power system it will be great. Costing, a 10 year warranty and training also. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-01-13 4:33 pm, Glenn Burt wrote: > According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie > will... > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > Date: Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter > options > > There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A > great monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in > the last 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 [1] > > On 2023-01-13 11 [2]:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Mac > > The radian is low voltage transformer > Based. Has hella surge capacity > > I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with > that platform. > > Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. > Just easier on everything. > > The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do > out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be > better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW > and radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run > even though its under its rating. > > Good luck > > Jay > > On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 > years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, > compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of > equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads > for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten > worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc > > He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a > test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I > was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the > low freq transformer based inverters at these surges. > > I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the > 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A > Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) > > What are my options? > Schneider XW Pro 6848 > Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) > Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly > > Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only > loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. > > Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian > should? > > I appreciate your input! > > -- > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] tel:2098130060 [2] tel:2023-01-1311 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Jan 16 16:29:08 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 21:29:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, Victron would work quite well as well. The biggest drawback is that they don't have a single unit for 120/240, but stacking two units works great and they have been really good for surge capacity in my opinion. I admit that I am biased. I've been using Victron for 6 years, and 3 years ago. About 3 years ago, I switched away from Outback and Schneider and started primarily using Victron. When I did, my equipment failure rate plummeted. In my own experience, Victron has been significantly more reliable, so I've become a real Victron advocate. Obviously, the other brands do have some advantages. Outback's online platform (optics RE) is the best for making it easy to adjust settings remotely from any device like your phone. Contact me off-list if you are interested in Victron, and I'll give you a lot more info about Victron. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2023 9:20 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options Fully appreciate everyone's input. The Midnite Rosie sounds interesting for sure. Midnite is a great company with great support. Smart people answer the phone and that really counts for a lot. How are you getting your hands on these? I can't seem to find much info, no spec sheets etc. None of my vendors have them and Midnite is estimating Apr 2023 as the release date. On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 8:34 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches > wrote: I run the XW6848 in my shop. When running my CNC plasma table the XW will shutdown due to exceeding its output rating if it is a long cut on metal when the 4HP compressor kicks on. I also have a Midnite Solar Rosey, both are connected to the same battery so it's an equal comparison. The Rosy inverter will surge right through and finish the job, the XW is not in the same league when comparing surge capability. A bonus is that the Rosey is really quiet as it does not have that big heavy transformer making noise under heavy load. It is easy to install as it is not as heavy. So far it's a game changer in regards to inverter hardware that I have tested. On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:54 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > wrote: I have a client with a large woodworking shop…cabinet table saw, large 20” 240V bench planer, chop saws, compressors and a vacuum system. A single Sol Ark 15K takes care of these loads flawlessly. It seems that that inductive load snag with the smaller models has been resolved with the 15K. Best, Chris On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 7:34 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > wrote: According to a seminar I just attended, the new Midnite Solar Rosie will... -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Date: Fri, Jan 13, 2023 3:55 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar; Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options There is not anything I know of that will out surge XW pro 6948. A great monitoring platform and much better support/installer training in the last 18 months. Perfect for a shop with unknown peak surges. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-01-13 11:57 am, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Mac The radian is low voltage transformer Based. Has hella surge capacity I would consider what web based monitoring system he wants and go with that platform. Regardless of system I'd install soft start/vfd on the larger units. Just easier on everything. The solark 12 doesn't seem to be good for larger loads and doesn't do out of balance well, and limited to 6kw per phase. The new 15 might be better, not sure. Numerous YouTube videos showing side by side vs XW and radian. Both run stuff over their rating which the SolA won't run even though its under its rating. Good luck Jay On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:34 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years on a Magnum 4448. He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors vacuums etc. They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment. Amazingly, the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issue), brown outs, dimming etc He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc. I tried a test with a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads. I was a little surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq transformer based inverters at these surges. I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V loads will also overload it. I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off) What are my options? Schneider XW Pro 6848 Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?) Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly Any others I should consider? He does have some significant 120 only loads so I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice. Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian should? I appreciate your input! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 12:53:19 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 10:53:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 Message-ID: HI All, Does anyone have any updated info about when the FM-100 and Mate3S will be available? thx jay From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Jan 17 14:27:34 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:27:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017901d92aa9$c09dd8b0$41d98a10$@solarcentex.com> Hate to ask but are these long lead like SMA and Fronius have become? If shortage, is this some sign that charge controllers are being overtaken by hybrid inverters with integrated chargers (like Sol-Ark?). -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 HI All, Does anyone have any updated info about when the FM-100 and Mate3S will be available? thx jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Tue Jan 17 16:34:50 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 13:34:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 In-Reply-To: <017901d92aa9$c09dd8b0$41d98a10$@solarcentex.com> References: <017901d92aa9$c09dd8b0$41d98a10$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <1a492363610c9fc5b935b6c85acf51c4@mail.gmail.com> Scott: I don't know about lead items for other than Outback as that is what we are using on the jobs we have going. I show May as the delivery for Mate3ses (who names these parts anyway?). I have never liked integrated systems. Ever since I was a kid I preferred component stereo equipment because it gave me more control of my options. The same is true for off-grid power equipment. Some systems need more charge control, some less, for example. Having the charge controller built into the inverters makes customizing difficult. Another issue is cases of failure. If an integrated inverter/charge controller experiences a failure it makes it more likely the whole system is non-operational. And finally, now component parts area becoming harder to procure. If everything is built into one box and that box is held up by lack of one chip, my project is stalled. If I can get some of the components I can start an installation and possibly work around missing parts. To answer your question, I think you are worse off now with an integrated system than with separate parts. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Scot Arey via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:28 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 Hate to ask but are these long lead like SMA and Fronius have become? If shortage, is this some sign that charge controllers are being overtaken by hybrid inverters with integrated chargers (like Sol-Ark?). -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:53 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 HI All, Does anyone have any updated info about when the FM-100 and Mate3S will be available? thx jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jan 18 21:42:43 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:42:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4024PAE Won't Charge Message-ID: <17a7b9d96ea0931601dabcc523195255@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, A Magnum 4024 won't charge batteries or transfer loads. The owner of the system, now well out of warranty, has spent hours on the phone with tech support and even took the unit into a Magnum authorized repair shop. The technician declared that it was working perfectly. On connection to the utility grid, the ME-ARC shows no sign of seeing the power. Once in a great while, it will connect and start charging batteries. Then it will quit. This seems to me like a matter of a relay not operating. The technician, who checked it out, believes that the problem is with the AC coming in. One tech support agent thought the same. The inverter is 1000' plus from the transformer. The incoming voltage, with light loads, is 248 VAC. Shouldn't the ME-ARC at least show that it sees the grid, even if the voltage dropped upon connection to the point it couldn't hold it? Isn't the Magnum charger pretty forgiving about voltage input? I've heard they can have issues with inverter-generators, but this is 60 Hz grid power. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Jan 19 07:42:31 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:42:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB-41 without WLAN Message-ID: Now that there has been some time since the non WLAN units came out, does anyone have recommendations for a good WiFi extender to utilize? Is it OK to use the onboard USB port to power one. I’ve seen the white paper on this set up but have yet to try it. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 09:09:55 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:09:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB-41 without WLAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jeremy, However, I have had good success with TP Link Nano Router in Client Mode (as opposed to router, repeat, AP and hotspot mode). Client mode is great because it's not re-broadcasting the wireless signal for other devices, it's basically just acting as an ethernet port. They seem to be robust and fairly cheap. I can't speak to using the USB ports to power them (worth a try). Thanks! On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 5:47 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Now that there has been some time since the non WLAN units came out, does > anyone have recommendations for a good WiFi extender to utilize? > > Is it OK to use the onboard USB port to power one. I’ve seen the white > paper on this set up but have yet to try it. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 10:22:52 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 08:22:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 In-Reply-To: <1a492363610c9fc5b935b6c85acf51c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <017901d92aa9$c09dd8b0$41d98a10$@solarcentex.com> <1a492363610c9fc5b935b6c85acf51c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Not sure about the Mate3s but I just got shipping notification for Fm100s from two different vendors. I had given up on them but I think they are out there now. Cheers On Tue, Jan 17, 2023, 2:43 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Scott: > > I don't know about lead items for other than Outback as that is what we > are using on the jobs we have going. I show May as the delivery for > Mate3ses (who names these parts anyway?). > > I have never liked integrated systems. Ever since I was a kid I preferred > component stereo equipment because it gave me more control of my options. > The same is true for off-grid power equipment. Some systems need more > charge control, some less, for example. Having the charge controller > built into the inverters makes customizing difficult. > > Another issue is cases of failure. If an integrated inverter/charge > controller experiences a failure it makes it more likely the whole system > is non-operational. > > And finally, now component parts area becoming harder to procure. If > everything is built into one box and that box is held up by lack of one > chip, my project is stalled. If I can get some of the components I can > start an installation and possibly work around missing parts. > > To answer your question, I think you are worse off now with an integrated > system than with separate parts. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Scot Arey via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:28 AM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Cc: scot.arey at solarcentex.com > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 > > Hate to ask but are these long lead like SMA and Fronius have become? If > shortage, is this some sign that charge controllers are being overtaken by > hybrid inverters with integrated chargers (like Sol-Ark?). > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of > jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 11:53 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback FM-100 > > HI All, > > Does anyone have any updated info about when the FM-100 and Mate3S will be > available? > > thx > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jan 19 10:24:55 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 08:24:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4024PAE Won't Charge In-Reply-To: <17a7b9d96ea0931601dabcc523195255@redwoodalliance.org> References: <17a7b9d96ea0931601dabcc523195255@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <5F7D060D-EF05-45D0-A15D-E61AC6C3B882@starlightsolar.com> Hello Drake, Since the relay board is functioning some times, I would more suspect (1) an intermittent controller board or (2) corrosion on the contact area of the header connection. They are relatively easy to change and not too expensive. One thing I would test first is to unplug the ARC remote the apply AC power. The ARC has the ability to control when incoming AC is used. Unplugging it will bypass all remote function as a cause, though I highly doubt it is. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 18, 2023, at 7:42 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches, A Magnum 4024 won't charge batteries or transfer loads. The owner of the system, now well out of warranty, has spent hours on the phone with tech support and even took the unit into a Magnum authorized repair shop. The technician declared that it was working perfectly. On connection to the utility grid, the ME-ARC shows no sign of seeing the power. Once in a great while, it will connect and start charging batteries. Then it will quit. This seems to me like a matter of a relay not operating. The technician, who checked it out, believes that the problem is with the AC coming in. One tech support agent thought the same. The inverter is 1000' plus from the transformer. The incoming voltage, with light loads, is 248 VAC. Shouldn't the ME-ARC at least show that it sees the grid, even if the voltage dropped upon connection to the point it couldn't hold it? Isn't the Magnum charger pretty forgiving about voltage input? I've heard they can have issues with inverter-generators, but this is 60 Hz grid power. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jan 19 10:33:26 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 10:33:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB-41 without WLAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, I've seen that whitepaper from SMA about using the USB to power a Vonets wifi adapter. It does not work well at all. I tried this and it worked great for about a week. Then one of the two inverters stopped being able to power the Vonets at all, and the other Vonets device could not stay connected to the wifi signal. I called tech support and the person I talked to said not to use the USB for power and didn't even know that the whitepaper existed. I had already purchased a few of the vonets devices, so I tried on another site and had similar bad luck. It connected great at first, and then a week later stopped working. These were both ground mounts. The first one, the wifi was coming from a wireless radio at the house, but that was in front of the array. But the second time, there was a strong wifi signal coming from behind the array, and it still would not work. At both sites, I ended up installing an outlet in a box and used this, which has an ethernet port and ran a cable to the inverters: https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Wi-Fi-Range-Extender-EX2700/dp/B00L0YLRUW/ Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 9:10 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Jeremy, > > However, I have had good success with TP Link Nano Router in Client Mode > (as opposed to router, repeat, AP and hotspot mode). Client mode is great > because it's not re-broadcasting the wireless signal for other devices, > it's basically just acting as an ethernet port. They seem to be robust and > fairly cheap. I can't speak to using the USB ports to power them (worth a > try). > > Thanks! > > > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 5:47 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Now that there has been some time since the non WLAN units came out, does >> anyone have recommendations for a good WiFi extender to utilize? >> >> Is it OK to use the onboard USB port to power one. I’ve seen the white >> paper on this set up but have yet to try it. >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Mon Jan 23 12:39:18 2023 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 09:39:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment? Message-ID: Hello All, I have a long time off-grid customer who is ready to upgrade his FX/L-16 system, and I was suggesting Sol-Ark with Ampliphi closed loop. After getting my rough estimate, and being the due-diligence guy that he is, he asked around a bit. Someone who has “some” off-grid experience recommended equipment called EG4. It looks to have most of the features of a Sol-Ark plus offers server-rack Lithium batteries, all for about half the price. Looks like a cheap knock-off to me, and I said so, but promised to ask around. Anyone had any experience or know anything about these? Thanks, Bruce Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/ https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-6-5k-off-grid-inverter-6500ex-48/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reosolar at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 12:57:19 2023 From: reosolar at gmail.com (Aaron Mandelkorn) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:57:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had great success with the life power eg4 batteries but have no experience with the inverter signature solar offers. It is quite a bit less expensive. Not sure if it ul listed. I have been using nothing but sol ark inverters for the last 4 years. They have always treated me well. Aaron Mandelkorn President / Founder Renewable Energy Outfitters www.reosolar.com Off Grid Depot www.offgridnow.com 970-596-3744 On Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 10:40 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > I have a long time off-grid customer who is ready to upgrade his FX/L-16 > system, and I was suggesting Sol-Ark with Ampliphi closed loop. After > getting my rough estimate, and being the due-diligence guy that he is, he > asked around a bit. Someone who has “some” off-grid experience recommended > equipment called EG4. It looks to have most of the features of a Sol-Ark > plus offers server-rack Lithium batteries, all for about half the price. > Looks like a cheap knock-off to me, and I said so, but promised to ask > around. Anyone had any experience or know anything about these? > > Thanks, > Bruce > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/ > > > https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-6-5k-off-grid-inverter-6500ex-48/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay at nunatakenergy.com Mon Jan 23 13:22:08 2023 From: jay at nunatakenergy.com (Jay Pozner) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:22:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bruce I just had a similar experience. We had an individual approach us as a consultant to furnish a code compliant plan set for their off-grid new construction home. Ultimately we did most of the install. He already purchased all the equipment from Signature Solar (EG4 US distributors). We couldn't use the inverter because there wasn't a listing on it at the time. We did use the batteries. I found Signature Solar does answer the phone and was responsive to my enquerys, though a few times it seemed they weren't able to answer questions, and there is no way to get support from the manufacturer. There are several videos they direct me to which were somewhat helpful. It seems though that they are genuinely trying to improve support, and through the process more and more resources became available. They told me Solark and EG4 batteries played together, and even had me update their past generation batteries (which is what he purchased) with a firmware patch that ultimately Solark said didn't work for the closed loop coms. I believe the new generation batteries have a protocol with Solark, but I would definitely verify that with them. It was a bit of a headache in the end, and I don't love the incompatibility, but it's online now. The price point did interest me, but I am still waiting to see how this system functions after they move in. Contact me off post if you want more info. Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 10:40 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > I have a long time off-grid customer who is ready to upgrade his FX/L-16 > system, and I was suggesting Sol-Ark with Ampliphi closed loop. After > getting my rough estimate, and being the due-diligence guy that he is, he > asked around a bit. Someone who has “some” off-grid experience recommended > equipment called EG4. It looks to have most of the features of a Sol-Ark > plus offers server-rack Lithium batteries, all for about half the price. > Looks like a cheap knock-off to me, and I said so, but promised to ask > around. Anyone had any experience or know anything about these? > > Thanks, > Bruce > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/ > > > https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-6-5k-off-grid-inverter-6500ex-48/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 17:12:07 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 14:12:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches and Bruce I have sent some people there that are not practical and want want want, they are a DYI shop and what l get from customers is there in house design and engineering is not what l would use myself. As a last ditch l tell the prospective buyers to get what they want and l can do an install with only warranty on the work performed and if there is an issue it's on them. The solar industry is getting inundated with DYI guys and out of state shops selling incomplete so called kits resulting in a bad customer experience so its touchy to even get involved. "Not so fun times" On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 9:40 AM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > I have a long time off-grid customer who is ready to upgrade his FX/L-16 > system, and I was suggesting Sol-Ark with Ampliphi closed loop. After > getting my rough estimate, and being the due-diligence guy that he is, he > asked around a bit. Someone who has “some” off-grid experience recommended > equipment called EG4. It looks to have most of the features of a Sol-Ark > plus offers server-rack Lithium batteries, all for about half the price. > Looks like a cheap knock-off to me, and I said so, but promised to ask > around. Anyone had any experience or know anything about these? > > Thanks, > Bruce > > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/ > > > https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-6-5k-off-grid-inverter-6500ex-48/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jan 23 21:00:16 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 21:00:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries Message-ID: Has anyone had any experience with the VillaGrid Lithium Titanium batteries? They are supposedly usable in below zero temperatures, which of course the LFP batteries are not. They also apparently have a 20 year 10,000 cycle warranty (not that I really put much stock in being able to exercise a warranty even 15 years out). They are doing their own distribution at this point, but the sales person wouldn't tell me pricing until I sat in on a more formal presentation, which tells me I'm not going to be overly thrilled with the price point. They are very new on the market, but just thought I'd ask. Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jan 25 23:35:13 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 22:35:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does anybody know if the LG Prime 16 battery has been test to UL9540A standards that would allow units to be closer than three feet apart? Message-ID: <1a2b01d9313f$951ac300$bf504900$@solarcentex.com> A new inspector asked a new question. >From my studies tonight it looks like UL9540A is not a listing but a test standard and in fact UL has a database of batteries that have been test to the A standard which according to UL can allow (with AHJ approval) less than 3-feet separation between batteries. The database not the easiest and LG is in there but cannot ascertain if for the Prime 16 so thought I'd share what I've learned and ask if others run across same. The IRC 328 section requires UL9540. But it also requires 3-feet unless tested in fire conditions for battery to battery inducement of thermal runaway. Anybody have any insight or recommendations? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 26 11:31:03 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:31:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does anybody know if the LG Prime 16 battery has been test to UL9540A standards that would allow units to be closer than three feet apart? In-Reply-To: <1a2b01d9313f$951ac300$bf504900$@solarcentex.com> References: <1a2b01d9313f$951ac300$bf504900$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <3ed4e52bc73bc08036e2ea472be51fd9@sti.net> The LG Prime is an NMC chemistry Lithium I believe. It probably needs as much protection as possible from thermal runaway as it is a definitely not as safe as LFP Lithium. I hope I am wrong but that is what I know at this time. The first system I saw that met UL9540 was the pairing of Discover AES and Schneider electronics. Others should be doing this and maybe are. The LG is an all in one battery and inverter and similar to Tesla Powerwall right? https://blog.discoverbattery.com/discover-battery-aes-lifepo4-battery-certified-ul9540-for-solar-energy-storage-systems I think you are right about 9540A from a quick look. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-01-25 8:35 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > A new inspector asked a new question. > > From my studies tonight it looks like UL9540A is not a listing but a > test standard and in fact UL has a database of batteries that have been > test to the A standard which according to UL can allow (with AHJ > approval) less than 3-feet separation between batteries. > > The database not the easiest and LG is in there but cannot ascertain if > for the Prime 16 so thought I'd share what I've learned and ask if > others run across same. > > The IRC 328 section requires UL9540. But it also requires 3-feet unless > tested in fire conditions for battery to battery inducement of thermal > runaway. Anybody have any insight or recommendations? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Jan 26 13:48:59 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 12:48:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does anybody know if the LG Prime 16 battery has been test to UL9540A standards that would allow units to be closer than three feet apart? In-Reply-To: <3ed4e52bc73bc08036e2ea472be51fd9@sti.net> References: <1a2b01d9313f$951ac300$bf504900$@solarcentex.com> <3ed4e52bc73bc08036e2ea472be51fd9@sti.net> Message-ID: <220e01d931b6$da8a0eb0$8f9e2c10$@solarcentex.com> The LG Prime 16 is a battery only. 16KWH with 10KW discharge makes it a very nice match with SolarEdge 11400. There is no integrated inverter within the battery. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2023 10:31 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Does anybody know if the LG Prime 16 battery has been test to UL9540A standards that would allow units to be closer than three feet apart? The LG Prime is an NMC chemistry Lithium I believe. It probably needs as much protection as possible from thermal runaway as it is a definitely not as safe as LFP Lithium. I hope I am wrong but that is what I know at this time. The first system I saw that met UL9540 was the pairing of Discover AES and Schneider electronics. Others should be doing this and maybe are. The LG is an all in one battery and inverter and similar to Tesla Powerwall right? https://blog.discoverbattery.com/discover-battery-aes-lifepo4-battery-certified-ul9540-for-solar-energy-storage-systems I think you are right about 9540A from a quick look. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-01-25 8:35 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: A new inspector asked a new question. >From my studies tonight it looks like UL9540A is not a listing but a test standard and in fact UL has a database of batteries that have been test to the A standard which according to UL can allow (with AHJ approval) less than 3-feet separation between batteries. The database not the easiest and LG is in there but cannot ascertain if for the Prime 16 so thought I’d share what I’ve learned and ask if others run across same. The IRC 328 section requires UL9540. But it also requires 3-feet unless tested in fire conditions for battery to battery inducement of thermal runaway. Anybody have any insight or recommendations? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Thu Jan 26 14:57:00 2023 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:57:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Does anybody know if the LG Prime 16 battery has been test to UL9540A standards that would allow units to be closer than three feet apart? In-Reply-To: <220e01d931b6$da8a0eb0$8f9e2c10$@solarcentex.com> References: <1a2b01d9313f$951ac300$bf504900$@solarcentex.com> <3ed4e52bc73bc08036e2ea472be51fd9@sti.net> <220e01d931b6$da8a0eb0$8f9e2c10$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: My understanding is that UL9540A documentation is required if one plans to exceed the limitations on size and quantity of ESS as well as separation distances. The UL9540A report has to be included in the Instructions and made available to the AHJ if the IRC, IFC or NFPA855 limits are to be exceeded. According to the documents on the LG website, the LGPrime series only has UL9540 for a limited number of inverters in the US - SolarEdge, SMA, Goodwe and Growatt. And they can not be used in Off-grid mode. *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 at 10:49, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The LG Prime 16 is a battery only. 16KWH with 10KW discharge makes it a > very nice match with SolarEdge 11400. There is no integrated inverter > within the battery. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2023 10:31 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Does anybody know if the LG Prime 16 battery > has been test to UL9540A standards that would allow units to be closer than > three feet apart? > > > > The LG Prime is an NMC chemistry Lithium I believe. It probably needs as > much protection as possible from thermal runaway as it is a definitely not > as safe as LFP Lithium. I hope I am wrong but that is what I know at this > time. > > > > The first system I saw that met UL9540 was the pairing of Discover AES and > Schneider electronics. Others should be doing this and maybe are. The LG is > an all in one battery and inverter and similar to Tesla Powerwall right? > > > > > https://blog.discoverbattery.com/discover-battery-aes-lifepo4-battery-certified-ul9540-for-solar-energy-storage-systems > > > > I think you are right about 9540A from a quick look. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2023-01-25 8:35 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > > A new inspector asked a new question. > > > > From my studies tonight it looks like UL9540A is not a listing but a test > standard and in fact UL has a database of batteries that have been test to > the A standard which according to UL can allow (with AHJ approval) less > than 3-feet separation between batteries. > > The database not the easiest and LG is in there but cannot ascertain if > for the Prime 16 so thought I’d share what I’ve learned and ask if others > run across same. > > The IRC 328 section requires UL9540. But it also requires 3-feet unless > tested in fire conditions for battery to battery inducement of thermal > runaway. Anybody have any insight or recommendations? > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 27 14:24:10 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:24:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Message-ID: <9efc5402e1362dadfadc656f2b864b2b@mail.gmail.com> Friends: We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a waiver. The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment. To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Jan 27 14:45:51 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:45:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Message-ID: Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC within the house?Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code evolves.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnectsFriends: We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged.  In this case we will apply for a waiver. The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020.  At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment.   To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs.  That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects.     The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. William Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 14:50:54 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:50:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 14:53:04 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:53:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <9efc5402e1362dadfadc656f2b864b2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9efc5402e1362dadfadc656f2b864b2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William We have done 80 kwh Blue planet resi installs in the past (at the time this was as large as we could go in resi) anyway the BMS has a push to start and on/off buttons we just connected into them and we compliant, rotory switch at 24 volts 10 mA is all that is needed, Now not all BMS.s can do this so verify first, Fortress has a start up button but I am not sure if it is serviceable like blue planet is. Jerry On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:26 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The > AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect > there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become > inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a > waiver. > > > > The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of > 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect > equipment. > > > > To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters > (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner > outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand > yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system > that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, > we will not have that luxury. > > > > I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high > amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > > > I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery > disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Jan 27 15:02:46 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 15:02:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ce273e8-3d1d-7160-4e94-e24e957c8f98@entech-engineering.com> This was my first thought too.  An ac disconnect that is readily available that controls the ac conductors to the back up loads panel(s) would be less dangerous and has much less worries about it failing.  Chris On 1/27/2023 2:45 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, > or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and > producing AC within the house? > Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the > code evolves. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *William Miller; > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > Friends: > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  > The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I > suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that > would become inoperable if this system were engaged.  In this case we > will apply for a waiver. > > The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October > of 2020.  At that time no one suggested any specific battery > disconnect equipment. > > To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 > inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV > recombiner outputs.  That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a > brand yet to be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a > system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA > lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. > > I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high > amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote > battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Jan 27 15:27:01 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:27:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <9efc5402e1362dadfadc656f2b864b2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9efc5402e1362dadfadc656f2b864b2b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I believe midnite still has the remote trip DC PNL mount breakers, but of course, no birdhouse to make it work. Not sure what the trip trigger needs either as far as voltage. -MNEDC250RT Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jan 27, 2023, at 12:26 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:  Friends: We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a waiver. The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment. To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 27 15:35:35 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:35:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <892a682bf31f311ae9e49c986852cbed@mail.gmail.com> Glenn: As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A with the building official: 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC output of the inverter system from premise wiring? Yes, as required per 230.85 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries from the inverters? Yes If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches *Cc:* Glenn Burt *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC within the house? Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code evolves. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM *To: *RE-wrenches; *Cc: *William Miller; *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Friends: We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a waiver. The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment. To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 16:38:11 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 13:38:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <892a682bf31f311ae9e49c986852cbed@mail.gmail.com> References: <892a682bf31f311ae9e49c986852cbed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wiliam, I designed a system for this using the MidNite RT breakers. They use 24VDC to trigger them, but you must then open the 24VDC to them once they have tripped or it will burn out the coil in the breaker. What I designed was a 48VDC to 24VDC power supply and a EPO button that is normally open. We have both of these, the N.O. button is rare. The power supply is from OutBack. Then once the breaker has tripped the power is no longer supplied to the switch or RT breaker. It does require a manual reset of the breaker. I've attached a drawing of this. Brad AEE Solar On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:54 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Glenn: > > > > As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A > with the building official: > > > > 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC > output of the inverter system from premise wiring? > > Yes, as required per 230.85 > > 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries > from the inverters? > > Yes > > > > If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s > time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own > before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not > to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM > *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Glenn Burt > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or > does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC > within the house? > > Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the > code evolves. > > > > -Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches > > *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: *William Miller; > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Friends: > > > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The > AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect > there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become > inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a > waiver. > > > > The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of > 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect > equipment. > > > > To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters > (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner > outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand > yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system > that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, > we will not have that luxury. > > > > I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high > amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > > > I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery > disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Battery disconnect wiring.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 119166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 16:46:52 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:46:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <892a682bf31f311ae9e49c986852cbed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Keep in mind that the bigger Midnite remote trip breakers aren't UL listed last I checked. Let us know what you come up with. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 2:39 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wiliam, > > I designed a system for this using the MidNite RT breakers. They use 24VDC > to trigger them, but you must then open the 24VDC to them once they have > tripped or it will burn out the coil in the breaker. What I designed was a > 48VDC to 24VDC power supply and a EPO button that is normally open. We have > both of these, the N.O. button is rare. The power supply is from OutBack. > Then once the breaker has tripped the power is no longer supplied to the > switch or RT breaker. It does require a manual reset of the breaker. I've > attached a drawing of this. > > Brad > AEE Solar > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 12:54 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Glenn: >> >> >> >> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A >> with the building official: >> >> >> >> 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC >> output of the inverter system from premise wiring? >> >> Yes, as required per 230.85 >> >> 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect >> batteries from the inverters? >> >> Yes >> >> >> >> If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s >> time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own >> before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not >> to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >> >> >> >> Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or >> does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC >> within the house? >> >> Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the >> code evolves. >> >> >> >> -Glenn >> >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> >> >> ------ Original message------ >> >> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >> >> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >> >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> >> *Cc: *William Miller; >> >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >> >> >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The >> AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect >> there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become >> inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a >> waiver. >> >> >> >> The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of >> 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect >> equipment. >> >> >> >> To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters >> (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner >> outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. >> >> >> >> The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand >> yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system >> that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, >> we will not have that luxury. >> >> >> >> I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high >> amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. >> >> >> >> I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote >> battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Jan 28 09:28:10 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:28:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <892a682bf31f311ae9e49c986852cbed@mail.gmail.com> References: <892a682bf31f311ae9e49c986852cbed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no code reference.  Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach.  A lot of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation.  Chris On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Glenn: > > As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  Here is an excerpt from the > Q&A with the building official: > > 4.Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC > output of the inverter system from premise wiring? > > Yes, as required per 230.85 > > 5.Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries > from the inverters? > > Yes > > If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting > everyone’s time with my post.  I try to be careful about that, > researching on my own before posting and trying to make my questions > very clear.  I also try not to embarrass myself with dumb questions, > but that does happen occasionally… > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM > *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Glenn Burt > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, > or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and > producing AC within the house? > > Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the > code evolves. > > -Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches > > *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: *William Miller; > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > Friends: > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  > The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I > suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that > would become inoperable if this system were engaged.  In this case we > will apply for a waiver. > > The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October > of 2020.  At that time no one suggested any specific battery > disconnect equipment. > > To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 > inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV > recombiner outputs.  That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a > brand yet to be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a > system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA > lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. > > I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high > amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote > battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Jan 28 09:33:20 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:33:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701d93325$78bf74c0$6a3e5e40$@mindspring.com> Bruce Good morning, just reread your email. For some reason I thought you were asking about their batteries which have been great and pricing fair. We have yet to install any of the EG4,6000 or 6500. Know several installers that have and they are tough little work horses but not to be compared ( at least today ) to a Sol-Ark. Have you had any issues with the Sol-Ark 15? We have two different sites where they were not connecting to the grid, only battery and solar. After 3 + weeks of going back and forth they finally admitted a firm ware problem. Thx Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 23, 2023 12:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bruce Erickson Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment? Hello All, I have a long time off-grid customer who is ready to upgrade his FX/L-16 system, and I was suggesting Sol-Ark with Ampliphi closed loop. After getting my rough estimate, and being the due-diligence guy that he is, he asked around a bit. Someone who has “some” off-grid experience recommended equipment called EG4. It looks to have most of the features of a Sol-Ark plus offers server-rack Lithium batteries, all for about half the price. Looks like a cheap knock-off to me, and I said so, but promised to ask around. Anyone had any experience or know anything about these? Thanks, Bruce Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/ https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-6-5k-off-grid-inverter-6500ex-48/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sat Jan 28 13:12:18 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:12:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Message-ID:  2020 Code Language: 480.7 DC Disconnect Methods. (A) Disconnecting Means. A disconnecting means shall be provided for all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and located within sight of the battery system. N (B) Emergency Disconnect. For one-family and two-family dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”. N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. Battery circuits exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote:  Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Glenn: As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A with the building official: 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC output of the inverter system from premise wiring? Yes, as required per 230.85 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries from the inverters? Yes If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM To: William Miller via RE-wrenches Cc: Glenn Burt Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC within the house? Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code evolves. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: William Miller via RE-wrenches Date: Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: William Miller; Subject:[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Friends: We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a waiver. The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment. To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: EEIlogolong.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 210 bytes Desc: cwarfel.vcf URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Jan 28 14:48:55 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 14:48:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <892a682bf31f311ae9e49c986852cbed@mail.gmail.com> References: <892a682bf31f311ae9e49c986852cbed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A dc-rated shunt trip breaker @ 250A (Blue Planet / OB Radian cabinet breaker) would do the trick if they exist. The trip device could be mounted outside. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 3:55 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Glenn: > > > > As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A > with the building official: > > > > 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC > output of the inverter system from premise wiring? > > Yes, as required per 230.85 > > 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries > from the inverters? > > Yes > > > > If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s > time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own > before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not > to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM > *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Glenn Burt > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or > does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC > within the house? > > Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the > code evolves. > > > > -Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches > > *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: *William Miller; > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Friends: > > > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The > AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect > there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become > inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a > waiver. > > > > The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of > 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect > equipment. > > > > To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters > (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner > outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand > yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system > that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, > we will not have that luxury. > > > > I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high > amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > > > I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery > disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 28 15:16:44 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:16:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fe16a6e72093025da71201debd2a81@mail.gmail.com> Jeremy: Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them up. Chris: What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types”? All: Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements above and beyond the code. It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery leads. In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects  *2020 Code Language:* *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and located within sight of the battery system.* *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.* *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted.* Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Glenn: As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A with the building official: 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC output of the inverter system from premise wiring? Yes, as required per 230.85 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries from the inverters? Yes If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches *Cc:* Glenn Burt *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC within the house? Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code evolves. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM *To: *RE-wrenches; *Cc: *William Miller; *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Friends: We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a waiver. The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment. To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Sat Jan 28 17:32:37 2023 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 17:32:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <00fe16a6e72093025da71201debd2a81@mail.gmail.com> References: <00fe16a6e72093025da71201debd2a81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: All One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under full load. Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jeremy: > > > > Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked > them up. > > > > Chris: > > > > What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or > both panel types”? > > > > All: > > > > Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, > but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should already be > versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own > requirements above and beyond the code. > > > > It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as > well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the > inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the > generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when > disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components > of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery > leads. > > > > In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is > pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being > powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver > to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure > pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to > supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and > marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. > > > > By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage > specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a > nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. > > > > I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how this > works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth > trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some > officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. > > > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM > *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > >  > > *2020 Code Language:* > > *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* > > *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for > all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a > voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible > and located within sight of the battery system.* > > *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family dwellings, > a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system > shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for > emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.* > > *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits > exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject > to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected > strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by > qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be > permitted.* > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1453 M St. > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > > > On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not > specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no > code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot > of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of > money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris > > On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Glenn: > > > > As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A > with the building official: > > > > 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC > output of the inverter system from premise wiring? > > Yes, as required per 230.85 > > 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries > from the inverters? > > Yes > > > > If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s > time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own > before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not > to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM > *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Glenn Burt > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or > does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC > within the house? > > Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the > code evolves. > > > > -Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches > > *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: *William Miller; > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Friends: > > > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The > AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect > there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become > inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a > waiver. > > > > The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of > 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect > equipment. > > > > To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters > (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner > outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand > yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system > that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, > we will not have that luxury. > > > > I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high > amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > > > I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery > disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 18:20:51 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 16:20:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <00fe16a6e72093025da71201debd2a81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <547DF66A-93AD-4648-8BEA-475B196829CB@gmail.com> HI William B, That is a good point. And even beyond the potential CC damage, since your now potentially powering the inverter it could actually stay alive ( I’ve seen this happen ) or it can cause a voltage spike from the CC which can damage the inverter which I”ve also seen. I don’t know what that section of the code is trying to do, but its doing it extremely poorly. jay > On Jan 28, 2023, at 3:32 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: > > All > > One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under full load. > Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jeremy: > > > Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them up. > > > Chris: > > > What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types”? > > > All: > > > Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements above and beyond the code. > > > It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery leads. > > > In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. > > > By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. > > > I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. > > > > William Miller > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM > To: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com ; RE-wrenches > Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > >  > > 2020 Code Language: > > 480.7 DC Disconnect Methods. > > (A) Disconnecting Means. A disconnecting means shall be provided for all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and located within sight of the battery system. > > N (B) Emergency Disconnect. For one-family and two-family dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”. > > N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. Battery circuits exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1453 M St. > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > > > > On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >  > > Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris > > On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Glenn: > > > As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A with the building official: > > > 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC output of the inverter system from premise wiring? > > Yes, as required per 230.85 > > 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries from the inverters? > > Yes > > > If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… > > > William > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM > To: William Miller via RE-wrenches > Cc: Glenn Burt > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC within the house? > > Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code evolves. > > > -Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > > ------ Original message------ > > From: William Miller via RE-wrenches > > Date: Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM > > To: RE-wrenches; > > Cc: William Miller; > > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > Friends: > > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a waiver. > > > The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment. > > > To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. > > > I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > > I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > > William > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 28 19:21:38 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 16:21:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <00fe16a6e72093025da71201debd2a81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Esteemed wrenches: Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge controllers later. Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes… Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. William On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce wrote: > All > > One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge > controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers > are under full load. > Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk when > the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jeremy: >> >> >> >> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked >> them up. >> >> >> >> Chris: >> >> >> >> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which >> or both panel types”? >> >> >> >> All: >> >> >> >> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, >> but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should already be >> versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own >> requirements above and beyond the code. >> >> >> >> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as >> well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the >> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the >> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when >> disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components >> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery >> leads. >> >> >> >> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is >> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being >> powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver >> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure >> pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to >> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and >> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. >> >> >> >> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the >> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project >> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. >> >> >> >> I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how >> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments >> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some >> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. >> >> >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM >> *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >> >> >> >>  >> >> *2020 Code Language:* >> >> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* >> >> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for >> all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a >> voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible >> and located within sight of the battery system.* >> >> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family >> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary >> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside >> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY >> DISCONNECT”.* >> >> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits >> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject >> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected >> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by >> qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be >> permitted.* >> >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> >> Solar Installation / Design >> >> All Solar, Inc. >> >> 1453 M St. >> >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> >> >> >> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not >> specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no >> code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot >> of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of >> money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris >> >> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Glenn: >> >> >> >> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A >> with the building official: >> >> >> >> 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC >> output of the inverter system from premise wiring? >> >> Yes, as required per 230.85 >> >> 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect >> batteries from the inverters? >> >> Yes >> >> >> >> If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s >> time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own >> before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not >> to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >> >> >> >> Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or >> does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC >> within the house? >> >> Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the >> code evolves. >> >> >> >> -Glenn >> >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> >> >> ------ Original message------ >> >> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >> >> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >> >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> >> *Cc: *William Miller; >> >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >> >> >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The >> AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect >> there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become >> inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a >> waiver. >> >> >> >> The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of >> 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect >> equipment. >> >> >> >> To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters >> (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner >> outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. >> >> >> >> The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand >> yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system >> that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, >> we will not have that luxury. >> >> >> >> I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high >> amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. >> >> >> >> I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote >> battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Sat Jan 28 19:58:27 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:58:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <00fe16a6e72093025da71201debd2a81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Esteemed wrenches: > > Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed > for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about > the charge controllers later. > > Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes… > > Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from > messing with it. Test it only after dark. > > William > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce < > wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: > >> All >> >> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge >> controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers >> are under full load. >> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk when >> the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jeremy: >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked >>> them up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris: >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which >>> or both panel types”? >>> >>> >>> >>> All: >>> >>> >>> >>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, >>> but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should already be >>> versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own >>> requirements above and beyond the code. >>> >>> >>> >>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as >>> well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the >>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the >>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when >>> disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components >>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery >>> leads. >>> >>> >>> >>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is >>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being >>> powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver >>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure >>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to >>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and >>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the >>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project >>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. >>> >>> >>> >>> I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how >>> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments >>> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some >>> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM >>> *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>> >>> >>>  >>> >>> *2020 Code Language:* >>> >>> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* >>> >>> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for >>> all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a >>> voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible >>> and located within sight of the battery system.* >>> >>> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family >>> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary >>> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside >>> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY >>> DISCONNECT”.* >>> >>> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits >>> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject >>> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected >>> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by >>> qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be >>> permitted.* >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> >>> Solar Installation / Design >>> >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> >>> 1453 M St. >>> >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, >>> not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no >>> code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot >>> of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of >>> money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris >>> >>> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Glenn: >>> >>> >>> >>> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the >>> Q&A with the building official: >>> >>> >>> >>> 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC >>> output of the inverter system from premise wiring? >>> >>> Yes, as required per 230.85 >>> >>> 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect >>> batteries from the inverters? >>> >>> Yes >>> >>> >>> >>> If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s >>> time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own >>> before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not >>> to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >>> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>> >>> >>> Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or >>> does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC >>> within the house? >>> >>> Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the >>> code evolves. >>> >>> >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> >>> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >>> >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> >>> *Cc: *William Miller; >>> >>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>> >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The >>> AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect >>> there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become >>> inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a >>> waiver. >>> >>> >>> >>> The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October >>> of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect >>> equipment. >>> >>> >>> >>> To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters >>> (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner >>> outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. >>> >>> >>> >>> The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand >>> yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system >>> that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, >>> we will not have that luxury. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high >>> amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote >>> battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 895-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Jan 28 20:14:50 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 17:14:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <00fe16a6e72093025da71201debd2a81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: James: Your on-grid home or business already has a quick and efficient means of disconnecting power by a random person: If you have a non-CT meter it’s a matter of clipping the meter tag and pulling the meter. If there is a CT meter, there will be a switch to flip. Fortunately off-grid homes do not usually have random people on the premises. I have always felt it beyond my expertise to second-guess what first responders require to perform their jobs safely. Most code requirements do add expense and inconvenience. However most requirements seem well founded in logic. When I travel in third world countries or read about building system failures, I personally appreciate the codes we have. William On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 4:58 PM James Jarvis wrote: > It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the > property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off > my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there > is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Esteemed wrenches: >> >> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed >> for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about >> the charge controllers later. >> >> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes… >> >> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from >> messing with it. Test it only after dark. >> >> William >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce < >> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >> >>> All >>> >>> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT >>> charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge >>> controllers are under full load. >>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk >>> when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Jeremy: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked >>>> them up. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which >>>> or both panel types”? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building >>>> officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should >>>> already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their >>>> own requirements above and beyond the code. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as >>>> well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the >>>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the >>>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when >>>> disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components >>>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery >>>> leads. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is >>>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being >>>> powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver >>>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure >>>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to >>>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and >>>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the >>>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project >>>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how >>>> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments >>>> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some >>>> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM >>>> *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> *2020 Code Language:* >>>> >>>> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* >>>> >>>> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided >>>> for all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with >>>> a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily >>>> accessible and located within sight of the battery system.* >>>> >>>> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family >>>> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary >>>> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside >>>> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY >>>> DISCONNECT”.* >>>> >>>> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits >>>> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject >>>> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected >>>> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by >>>> qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be >>>> permitted.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> >>>> Solar Installation / Design >>>> >>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>> >>>> 1453 M St. >>>> >>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, >>>> not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no >>>> code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot >>>> of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of >>>> money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris >>>> >>>> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Glenn: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the >>>> Q&A with the building official: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC >>>> output of the inverter system from premise wiring? >>>> >>>> Yes, as required per 230.85 >>>> >>>> 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect >>>> batteries from the inverters? >>>> >>>> Yes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s >>>> time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own >>>> before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not >>>> to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >>>> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or >>>> does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC >>>> within the house? >>>> >>>> Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the >>>> code evolves. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> >>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------ Original message------ >>>> >>>> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> >>>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >>>> >>>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>>> >>>> *Cc: *William Miller; >>>> >>>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The >>>> AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect >>>> there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become >>>> inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a >>>> waiver. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October >>>> of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect >>>> equipment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 >>>> inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV >>>> recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand >>>> yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system >>>> that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, >>>> we will not have that luxury. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high >>>> amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote >>>> battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 895-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sat Jan 28 20:35:23 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 18:35:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Sat Jan 28 22:02:31 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 21:02:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Brian and William, With all due respect, I think your geographical location of California may be limiting in your understanding of the implications of local power security. Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F outside and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours before their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after that pipes start to freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts to spray everywhere and then things can very quickly run into six-figure dollars amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this risk is by installing an ESS. Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior disconnects available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't for businesses. My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible disconnects on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or access controlled disconnects. William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the battery disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT controllers can and do blow up when they lose their voltage reference (battery) under load. And removing the battery from the circuit does allow the charge controllers to island with the inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a telecom customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when their battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full load, I'd guess you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a > main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many > cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!” > > In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for > stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and > two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an > emergency disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family > dwellings [230.85]. > > Brian Mehalic > > On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the > property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off > my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there > is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Esteemed wrenches: >> >> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed >> for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about >> the charge controllers later. >> >> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes… >> >> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from >> messing with it. Test it only after dark. >> >> William >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce < >> wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >> >>> All >>> >>> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT >>> charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge >>> controllers are under full load. >>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk >>> when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Jeremy: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked >>>> them up. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which >>>> or both panel types”? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building >>>> officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should >>>> already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their >>>> own requirements above and beyond the code. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as >>>> well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the >>>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the >>>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when >>>> disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components >>>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery >>>> leads. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is >>>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being >>>> powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver >>>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure >>>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to >>>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and >>>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the >>>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project >>>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how >>>> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments >>>> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some >>>> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM >>>> *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> *2020 Code Language:* >>>> >>>> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* >>>> >>>> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided >>>> for all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with >>>> a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily >>>> accessible and located within sight of the battery system.* >>>> >>>> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family >>>> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary >>>> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside >>>> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY >>>> DISCONNECT”.* >>>> >>>> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits >>>> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject >>>> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected >>>> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by >>>> qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be >>>> permitted.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> >>>> Solar Installation / Design >>>> >>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>> >>>> 1453 M St. >>>> >>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> >>>> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, >>>> not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no >>>> code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot >>>> of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of >>>> money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris >>>> >>>> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Glenn: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the >>>> Q&A with the building official: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC >>>> output of the inverter system from premise wiring? >>>> >>>> Yes, as required per 230.85 >>>> >>>> 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect >>>> batteries from the inverters? >>>> >>>> Yes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s >>>> time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own >>>> before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not >>>> to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >>>> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or >>>> does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC >>>> within the house? >>>> >>>> Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the >>>> code evolves. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> >>>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------ Original message------ >>>> >>>> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> >>>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >>>> >>>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>>> >>>> *Cc: *William Miller; >>>> >>>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The >>>> AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect >>>> there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become >>>> inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a >>>> waiver. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October >>>> of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect >>>> equipment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 >>>> inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV >>>> recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand >>>> yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system >>>> that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, >>>> we will not have that luxury. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high >>>> amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote >>>> battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 895-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sat Jan 28 22:08:43 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 20:08:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 22:42:31 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 19:42:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <00fe16a6e72093025da71201debd2a81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My design for one customer was to have one initiator for the PV and inverter, and a separate one for the battery initiator. And, to put up a plaque giving instructions to turn off the PV and inverter first, then the battery. Brad On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 4:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Esteemed wrenches: > > Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed > for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about > the charge controllers later. > > Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes… > > Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from > messing with it. Test it only after dark. > > William > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce < > wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: > >> All >> >> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge >> controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers >> are under full load. >> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk when >> the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jeremy: >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked >>> them up. >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris: >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which >>> or both panel types”? >>> >>> >>> >>> All: >>> >>> >>> >>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, >>> but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should already be >>> versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own >>> requirements above and beyond the code. >>> >>> >>> >>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as >>> well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the >>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the >>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when >>> disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components >>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery >>> leads. >>> >>> >>> >>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is >>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being >>> powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver >>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure >>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to >>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and >>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the >>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project >>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. >>> >>> >>> >>> I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how >>> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments >>> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some >>> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM >>> *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>> >>> >>>  >>> >>> *2020 Code Language:* >>> >>> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* >>> >>> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for >>> all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a >>> voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible >>> and located within sight of the battery system.* >>> >>> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family >>> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary >>> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside >>> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY >>> DISCONNECT”.* >>> >>> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits >>> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject >>> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected >>> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by >>> qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be >>> permitted.* >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> >>> Solar Installation / Design >>> >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> >>> 1453 M St. >>> >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, >>> not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no >>> code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot >>> of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of >>> money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris >>> >>> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Glenn: >>> >>> >>> >>> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the >>> Q&A with the building official: >>> >>> >>> >>> 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC >>> output of the inverter system from premise wiring? >>> >>> Yes, as required per 230.85 >>> >>> 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect >>> batteries from the inverters? >>> >>> Yes >>> >>> >>> >>> If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s >>> time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own >>> before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not >>> to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >>> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>> >>> >>> Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or >>> does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC >>> within the house? >>> >>> Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the >>> code evolves. >>> >>> >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> >>> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >>> >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> >>> *Cc: *William Miller; >>> >>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>> >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The >>> AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect >>> there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become >>> inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a >>> waiver. >>> >>> >>> >>> The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October >>> of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect >>> equipment. >>> >>> >>> >>> To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters >>> (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner >>> outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. >>> >>> >>> >>> The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand >>> yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system >>> that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, >>> we will not have that luxury. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high >>> amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote >>> battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 895-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Jan 29 07:22:24 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 07:22:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6eeab64a-b761-a8cb-129d-c5a9dd536f74@entech-engineering.com> I think California is the first place that I realized external MSP and breakers are common. Not so in the northeast and many other parts of the country. It doesn't matter with respect to battery systems in any case. As for getting involved in writing the Code, that is a pretty rotten things to say.  Brian, why don't you post the schedule for the next two Code cycles as best you can that says when: 1) Open for receiving recommendations for revised language, 2) How to submit, and 3) reference to the process for how this works? I, and many other people I know, have submitted language for consideration. Not one suggestion for twenty years has made it. And it's not as though they were bad ideas.  I stopped once I saw how it didn't work. The CMP have made solar increasingly more convoluted and less safe instead of the other direction. I've had it with cloistered processes infiltrated by special interests. It's like lobbyists writing bills. This discussion is an example.  I am familiar with 480.7. It is an example of Not seeing the trees for the forest. It is using a sledge hammer with a bad handle to address an issue that a tack hammer could solve. Not too long ago I was part of a team that trained about 10,000 fire fighters/first responders in solar systems.  To not second guess them would be wrong.  Many had a very bad understanding of pv (thanks again to those great ex fire fighters turned solar experts making lots of money providing incomplete information on this technology).  Fire fighters need better education.  This battery disconnect requirement to control 10 feet of conductors is nonsensical and counterproductive and should not be enforced. NEC should issue a memo stating that it is a mistake and serves no material purpose immediately. Would someone please explain stepwise how this requirement is better protection than an ac conductor disconnect on the battery supplied panel.  Step wise, cost wise, performance wise??? At a time when we are engaged in an international struggle where energy is being used as a weapon against those who stand for representative governments, freedom of speech, etc. to have language such as this has always been suspect, but now shows up as really glaringly wrong.  We need distributed energy storage systems. We need greater use of our renewable energy resources to reduce ours, and our allies dependence upon energy sources from countries who are hostile to our way of life and freedom.  This NEC language just plays into the hands of those that would like to harm the free world. Chris On 1/28/2023 10:08 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: > Easy buddy. First off you are wrong about where I live. And secondly > your whining about being cold will win you no sympathy; old folks die > in heat waves when the air conditioning fails! > > And if it such a big deal to you then don’t just complain - get > involved in the process, since I’m sure your ideas are the absolute > best and we’d all be better off if you wrote the Code. > > Brian > >> On Jan 28, 2023, at 8:02 PM, James Jarvis wrote: >> >>  >> Brian and William, >> >> With all due respect, I think your geographical location of >> California may be limiting in your understanding of the implications >> of local power security. >> >> Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and >> backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F >> outside and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours >> before their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after >> that pipes start to freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts >> to spray everywhere and then things can very quickly run into >> six-figure dollars amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this >> risk is by installing an ESS. >> >> Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior >> disconnects available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't >> for businesses. >> >> My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a >> buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible >> disconnects on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, >> there could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or >> access controlled disconnects. >> >> William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the >> battery disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just >> cheating. You had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT >> controllers can and do blow up when they lose their voltage reference >> (battery) under load. And removing the battery from the circuit does >> allow the charge controllers to island with the inverter and DC loads >> and do other damage. I know of a telecom customer that had hundreds >> of thousands of dollars of damage when their battery became >> disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full load, I'd guess >> you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea. >> >> -James Jefferson Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> +1-507-454-2727 >> http://www.aprsworld.com/ >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic >> wrote: >> >> Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel >> with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house >> already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about >> someone “flicking your switch!” >> >> In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for >> stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in >> one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the >> requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those >> same one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> >>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant >>> of the property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be >>> able to turn off my house or business with the flick of a >>> switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much fear >>> mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. >>> >>> -James Jefferson Jarvis >>> APRS World, LLC >>> +1-507-454-2727 >>> http://www.aprsworld.com/ >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches: >>> >>> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders >>> is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the >>> disconnect. I can worry about the charge controllers later. >>> >>> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes… >>> >>> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage >>> kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. >>> >>> William >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce >>> wrote: >>> >>> All >>> >>> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens >>> to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery >>> Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under >>> full load. >>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker >>> on a SolaArk  when the charge controllers are maxed, and >>> see if you get lucky. >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Jeremy: >>> >>> Thanks for posting the code references for those >>> that had never looked them up. >>> >>> Chris: >>> >>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not >>> specific to which or both panel types”? >>> >>> All: >>> >>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from >>> building officials, but not required, IMHO, for two >>> reasons:  The contractor should already be versed in >>> the codes and, building departments can mandate >>> their own requirements above and beyond the code. >>> >>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect >>> for premise wiring as well as a DC battery >>> disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the >>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  >>> However if the generator is running at the time, >>> some battery inverters can operate when disconnected >>> from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all >>> components of an off-grid home you need to >>> disconnect the generator and the battery leads. >>> >>> In this case the home is required to have fire >>> sprinklers.  There is pressure pump to provide flow >>> to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being powered >>> by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply >>> for a waiver to remove the DC disconnect requirement >>> on the grounds that the pressure pump is essential >>> fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose >>> to supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements >>> for accessibility and marking) that will disconnect >>> all premise wiring except the pressure pump. >>> >>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the >>> logic that the voltage specification is for nominal >>> battery voltage and this project having a nominal 48 >>> volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. >>> >>> I will let the group know what response I receive.  >>> Regardless of how this works in this jurisdiction, I >>> think these are both valid arguments worth trying in >>> any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  >>> Some officials are amenable to dialog and >>> negotiation and some are less so. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>> *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM >>> *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>>  >>> >>> *2020 Code Language:* >>> >>> /*480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*/ >>> >>> /*(A) Disconnecting Means.*/*//*/A disconnecting >>> means shall be provided for all ungrounded >>> conductors derived from a stationary battery system >>> with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting >>> means shall be readily accessible and located within >>> sight of the battery system./ >>> >>> /*N*/*//*/*(B) Emergency Disconnect.*/*//*/For >>> one-family and two-family dwellings, a disconnecting >>> means or its remote control for a stationary battery >>> system shall be located at a readily accessible >>> location outside the building for emergency use. The >>> disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”./ >>> >>> */N/*/*(C) Disconnection of Series Battery >>> Circuits.*/*//*/Battery circuits exceeding 240 volts >>> dc nominal between conductors or to ground and >>> subject to field servicing shall have provisions to >>> disconnect the series-connected strings into >>> segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for >>> maintenance by qualified persons. Non-load-break >>> bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted./ >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> >>> Solar Installation / Design >>> >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> >>> 1453 M St. >>> >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a >>> disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which >>> or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect >>> with no code reference.  Was trying to convey a >>> reasonable, safe approach.  A lot of bad >>> information from fire department solar >>> consultants making a lot of money fear >>> mongering, which has led to this type of >>> situation.  Chris >>> >>> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Glenn: >>> >>> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. >>> Here is an excerpt from the Q&A with the >>> building official: >>> >>> 4.Will you be requiring an external >>> disconnect to disconnect the AC output of >>> the inverter system from premise wiring? >>> >>> Yes, as required per 230.85 >>> >>> 5.Will you be requiring an external >>> disconnect to disconnect batteries from the >>> inverters? >>> >>> Yes >>> >>> If the DC disconnect was not required I >>> would not be wasting everyone’s time with my >>> post.  I try to be careful about that, >>> researching on my own before posting and >>> trying to make my questions very clear.  I >>> also try not to embarrass myself with dumb >>> questions, but that does happen occasionally… >>> >>> William >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>> *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >>> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery >>> disconnects >>> >>> Does the AHJ really want the batteries >>> disconnected from conductors, or does he >>> really just want the inverters to stop >>> operating and producing AC within the house? >>> >>> Obviously there is a big difference here and >>> it may be changing as the code evolves. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse >>> typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> >>> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >>> >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> >>> *Cc: *William Miller; >>> >>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery >>> disconnects >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> We have a large-ish residential off-grid >>> system install coming up. The AHJ has said >>> they will require a remote battery >>> disconnect.  I suspect there will be fire >>> sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that >>> would become inoperable if this system were >>> engaged. In this case we will apply for a >>> waiver. >>> >>> The last time this was discussed here as far >>> as I can find was October of 2020.  At that >>> time no one suggested any specific battery >>> disconnect equipment. >>> >>> To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 >>> or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 >>> battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 >>> amp PV recombiner outputs.  That is 6 poles >>> of high amperage DC disconnects. >>> >>> The battery array will be either a UnigyII >>> VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be >>> determined. In the case of lithium we will >>> look for a system that can remotely enable a >>> BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA >>> lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. >>> >>> I have done some considerable research and >>> have not found viable, high amperage, >>> remotely activated shutdown equipment. >>> >>> I am wondering what hardware others may be >>> using to achieve remote battery >>> disconnecting in these types of cases.. >>> >>> William >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 895-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Christopher Warfel, PE Entech Engineering, Inc. POB 871 Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Jan 29 14:41:09 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2023 11:41:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> James, Brian and others: Thank you all for the lively discussion. I am always interested in my colleague’s perspectives and this has been illuminating. It appears to me the discussion has forked: One topic is how to deal with the reality of the new code regarding a very narrow scenario: ESS inside of a residence. The other topic is: has the NEC evolved to be overly restrictive without factual basis? Regarding the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage systems located in one or two family homes if the battery voltage exceeds 60 VDC. There are very few areas that do not adopt the NEC. If you install ESS you will eventually have to deal with this code requirement one way or another. Due to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local building departments, some of you may be able to skirt this requirement. This is great until something happens. If your non-compliant installation causes a loss, you will end up in the defendants chair, not the building inspector. Here is how I approach these compliance conundrums: If I could argue the code does not apply or there is a good reason to waive the requirement; if the building official agrees; if I feel the installation is really and truly safe without meeting the requirement—only then could I proceed without the disconnect. Otherwise I am going to have to find a way to comply. As contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: What is safe enough for my clients? If any of you think you know more than the people who write the codes, then install what you can get away with and keep your fingers crossed. I am not willing to live like that. Regarding the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly scare-mongering NFPA? What is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is trying to protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an earthquake happens or a dump truck runs into your house, etc.). When California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters, I got my feelings hurt because I was losing business and I did not understand what it takes to fight a house fire. I spoke with a few fire fighters and learned about roof and wall venting and how it is affected by prevailing winds. I came around to appreciate there is a real need for rooftop fire setbacks. It is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into a wall with a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage conductors in or on that wall. This code requirement for battery disconnecting means is fundamentally sensible. That ends the discussion for me. Oh, yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing: Does anyone have any factual data to share on this? Regardless of that, does it really matter if the charge controller is saved but the house burns down? The islanding thing: To be compliant, all ungrounded battery conductors need to be disconnected. This includes the charge controller circuit(s). With the charge controllers and inverters disconnected from the batteries and from each other there cannot be DC “islanding”. The house flooding thing: At the surface, it appears you have a choice of disasters: flood or fire. I submit that fire is more destructive (I don’t think many people have died from a ruptured water pipe). I don’t think it has to be either or: Find a way to provide emergency power to freeze protection devices with that disconnect waived or under key in cooperation with the fire department. This may mean the batteries need to remain connected. Put those leads in metal raceway and mark their locations from the outside. Work with building and fire officials. Limit your liability. Thanks again to all of you for the discussion. I know what I need to do. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* James Jarvis [mailto:jj at aprsworld.com] *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 7:03 PM *To:* Brian Mehalic *Cc:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Brian and William, With all due respect, I think your geographical location of California may be limiting in your understanding of the implications of local power security. Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F outside and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours before their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after that pipes start to freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts to spray everywhere and then things can very quickly run into six-figure dollars amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this risk is by installing an ESS. Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior disconnects available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't for businesses. My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible disconnects on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or access controlled disconnects. William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the battery disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT controllers can and do blow up when they lose their voltage reference (battery) under load. And removing the battery from the circuit does allow the charge controllers to island with the inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a telecom customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when their battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full load, I'd guess you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!” In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. Brian Mehalic On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Esteemed wrenches: Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge controllers later. Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes… Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. William On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce wrote: All One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under full load. Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jeremy: Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them up. Chris: What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types”? All: Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements above and beyond the code. It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery leads. In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects  *2020 Code Language:* *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and located within sight of the battery system.* *N** (B) Emergency Disconnect. **For one-family and two-family dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.* *N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. **Battery circuits exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted.* Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Glenn: As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A with the building official: 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC output of the inverter system from premise wiring? Yes, as required per 230.85 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries from the inverters? Yes If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches *Cc:* Glenn Burt *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC within the house? Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code evolves. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM *To: *RE-wrenches; *Cc: *William Miller; *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects Friends: We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a waiver. The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment. To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery disconnecting in these types of cases.. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Jan 30 06:46:33 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 06:46:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't think the discussion has forked at all.  A solution to this problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time imaging them being exposed to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY indicating that this section of the code is no longer to be considered a requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this requirement. The other solutions discussed would only work for a few configurations realistically and would introduce more danger. Chris On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > James, Brian and others: > > Thank you all for the lively discussion.  I am always interested in my > colleague’s perspectives and this has been illuminating. > > It appears to me the discussion has forked:  One topic is how to deal > with the reality of the new code regarding a very narrow scenario: ESS > inside of a residence.  The other topic is: has the NEC evolved to be > overly restrictive without factual basis? > > Regarding the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must > provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage systems located > in one or two family homes if the battery voltage exceeds 60 VDC.  > There are very few areas that do not adopt the NEC.  If you install > ESS you will eventually have to deal with this code requirement one > way or another. > > Due to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local building > departments, some of you may be able to skirt this requirement.  This > is great until something happens.  If your non-compliant installation > causes a loss, you will end up in the defendants chair, not the > building inspector. > > Here is how I approach these compliance conundrums:  If I could argue > the code does not apply or there is a good reason to waive the > requirement; if the building official agrees; if I feel the > installation is really and truly safe without meeting the >  requirement—only then could I proceed without the disconnect.  > Otherwise I am going to have to find a way to comply. > > As contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: What is > safe enough for my clients?  If any of you think you know more than > the people who write the codes, then install what you can get away > with and keep your fingers crossed.  I am not willing to live like that. > > Regarding the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly > scare-mongering NFPA? > > What is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are > trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is trying to > protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an earthquake happens or > a dump truck runs into your house, etc.). > > When California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters, I got > my feelings hurt because I was losing business and I did not > understand what it takes to fight a house fire.  I spoke with a few > fire fighters and learned about roof and wall venting and how it is > affected by prevailing winds.  I came around to appreciate there is a > real need for rooftop fire setbacks. > > It is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into a wall > with a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage conductors in or > on that wall.  This code requirement for battery disconnecting means > is fundamentally sensible.  That ends the discussion for me. > > Oh, yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing:  Does anyone have > any factual data to share on this?  Regardless of that, does it really > matter if the charge controller is saved but the house burns down? > > The islanding thing:  To be compliant, all ungrounded battery > conductors need to be disconnected.  This includes the charge > controller circuit(s).  With the charge controllers and inverters > disconnected from the batteries and from each other there cannot be DC > “islanding”. > > The house flooding thing:  At the surface, it appears you have a > choice of disasters:  flood or fire.  I submit that fire is more > destructive (I don’t think many people have died from a ruptured water > pipe).  I don’t think it has to be either or:  Find a way to provide > emergency power to freeze protection devices with that disconnect > waived or under key in cooperation with the fire department.  This may > mean the batteries need to remain connected.  Put those leads in metal > raceway and mark their locations from the outside. Work with building > and fire officials.  Limit your liability. > > Thanks again to all of you for the discussion.  I know what I need to do. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*James Jarvis [mailto:jj at aprsworld.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 7:03 PM > *To:* Brian Mehalic > *Cc:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > Brian and William, > > With all due respect, I think your geographical location of California > may be limiting in your understanding of the implications of local > power security. > > Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and > backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F > outside and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours before > their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after that pipes > start to freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts to spray > everywhere and then things can very quickly run into six-figure > dollars amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this risk is by > installing an ESS. > > Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior > disconnects available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't for > businesses. > > My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a > buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible > disconnects on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, > there could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or > access controlled disconnects. > > William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the > battery disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just > cheating. You had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT > controllers can and do blow up when they lose their voltage reference > (battery) under load. And removing the battery from the circuit does > allow the charge controllers to island with the inverter and DC loads > and do other damage. I know of a telecom customer that had hundreds of > thousands of dollars of damage when their battery became disconnected. > If you are unwilling to test it at full load, I'd guess you know that > the whole concept is a dumb idea. > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic > wrote: > > Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel > with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house > already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about > someone “flicking your switch!” > > In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for > stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in > one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the > requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those same > one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. > > Brian Mehalic > > > > On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >  > > It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / > occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random > person to be able to turn off my house or business with the > flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much > fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches: > > Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire > responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose > having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge > controllers later. > > Others may prioritize their charge controller over their > homes… > > Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage > kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. > > William > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce > wrote: > > All > > One thing that no one is talking about is what happens > to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery > Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under > full load. > > Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker > on a SolaArk  when the charge controllers are maxed, > and see if you get lucky. > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jeremy: > > Thanks for posting the code references for those > that had never looked them up. > > Chris: > > What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, > not specific to which or both panel types”? > > All: > > Code references are handy when receiving edicts > from building officials, but not required, IMHO, > for two reasons:  The contractor should already be > versed in the codes and, building departments can > mandate their own requirements above and beyond > the code. > > It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect > for premise wiring as well as a DC battery > disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the > inverter from the batteries the AC power goes > off.  However if the generator is running at the > time, some battery inverters can operate when > disconnected from batteries.  So to completely > de-energize all components of an off-grid home you > need to disconnect the generator and the battery > leads. > > In this case the home is required to have fire > sprinklers.  There is pressure pump to provide > flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being > powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am > going to apply for a waiver to remove the DC > disconnect requirement on the grounds that the > pressure pump is essential fire suppression > equipment. Instead I will propose to supply an AC > disconnect (meeting all requirements for > accessibility and marking) that will disconnect > all premise wiring except the pressure pump. > > By the way, I will of course be trying to apply > the logic that the voltage specification is for > nominal battery voltage and this project having a > nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery > disconnect. > > I will let the group know what response I receive. > Regardless of how this works in this jurisdiction, > I think these are both valid arguments worth > trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery > disconnect. Some officials are amenable to dialog > and negotiation and some are less so. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM > *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery > disconnects > >  > > *2020 Code Language:* > > /*480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*/ > > /*(A) Disconnecting Means.*/*//*/A disconnecting > means shall be provided for all ungrounded > conductors derived from a stationary battery > system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A > disconnecting means shall be readily accessible > and located within sight of the battery system./ > > /*N*/*//(B) Emergency Disconnect./ /*/For > one-family and two-family dwellings, a > disconnecting means or its remote control for a > stationary battery system shall be located at a > readily accessible location outside the building > for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled > “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”./ > > */N/(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits./ > /*/Battery circuits exceeding 240 volts dc nominal > between conductors or to ground and subject to > field servicing shall have provisions to > disconnect the series-connected strings into > segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for > maintenance by qualified persons. Non-load-break > bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted./ > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1453 M St. > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and > shorthand. > > On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel > via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >  > > Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a > disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to > which or both panel types, and then a dc > disconnect with no code reference.  Was trying > to convey a reasonable, safe approach.  A lot > of bad information from fire department solar > consultants making a lot of money fear > mongering, which has led to this type of > situation.  Chris > > On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Glenn: > > As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  > Here is an excerpt from the Q&A with the > building official: > > 4.Will you be requiring an external > disconnect to disconnect the AC output of > the inverter system from premise wiring? > > Yes, as required per 230.85 > > 5.Will you be requiring an external > disconnect to disconnect batteries from > the inverters? > > Yes > > If the DC disconnect was not required I > would not be wasting everyone’s time with > my post.  I try to be careful about that, > researching on my own before posting and > trying to make my questions very clear.  I > also try not to embarrass myself with dumb > questions, but that does happen occasionally… > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM > *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Glenn Burt > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote > battery disconnects > > Does the AHJ really want the batteries > disconnected from conductors, or does he > really just want the inverters to stop > operating and producing AC within the house? > > Obviously there is a big difference here > and it may be changing as the code evolves. > > -Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please > excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches > > *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: *William Miller; > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery > disconnects > > Friends: > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid > system install coming up. The AHJ has said > they will require a remote battery > disconnect.  I suspect there will be fire > sprinkler controls and a pressure pump > that would become inoperable if this > system were engaged. In this case we will > apply for a waiver. > > The last time this was discussed here as > far as I can find was October of 2020.  At > that time no one suggested any specific > battery disconnect equipment. > > To further clarify my needs:  There will > be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 > 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two > 175 amp PV recombiner outputs.  That is 6 > poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII > VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to be > determined. In the case of lithium we will > look for a system that can remotely enable > a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA > lead-acid, we will not have that luxury. > > I have done some considerable research and > have not found viable, high amperage, > remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > I am wondering what hardware others may be > using to achieve remote battery > disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When > one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 895-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jan 30 10:31:31 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 09:31:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Notes from Solar CenTex - lack of SolarEdge support has directly contributed to angry customers which has materially harmed my company References: Message-ID: <03c701d934bf$ee1bd6a0$ca5383e0$@solarcentex.com> Save yourself from SolarEdge. I bet on the wrong horse. From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Sent: Monday, January 30, 2023 9:30 AM To: 'Jeff Zissulis' ; 'jeff.zissulis at solaredge.com' Cc: 'Andrew Gasper' Subject: Notes from Solar CenTex - lack of SolarEdge support has directly contributed to angry customers which has materially harmed my company Importance: High Good morning, Jeff. There is nothing you can do but I'm closing out the long, winding story of poor SolarEdge support to its installers. This unanswered email on an even older issue seemed like the right one to attach this email to. I previously wrote that SolarEdge, by not providing timely RMA support gets to have its cake and eat it, too while allowing the installer to take the brunt of criticism for non-support. SolarEdge gets to keep putting parts in new product and under-resources its warranty support to installers. I'm sure Wall Street loves the allocation. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/i-like-you-solaredgestop-shifting-your-saving s-my-small-arey This latest example is this enraged customer and 100% is what I referred to in this article. A dual SE7600EH setup with a pair of LG Prime16 batteries has been at half production as the communications board of the follower inverter failed o/a Dec 7th with the RMA bring approved Dec 8th. I still do not have comms board and there is NO ETA on when it will arrive. The customer has trashed me on Facebook. I got a 2-star review on SolarReviews.com from her. All because SolarEdge can't provide me a communications card for a SE7600EH. We asked for a new inverter because we thought that might be quicker and we had a hunch from another case that the comms card - when it arrives - will likely not solve the issue. Tech support said that is not possible. But the damage has been done. Severely. To me. Not SolarEdge. I'm not trying to call in a favor to shake the parts tree at SolarEdge for this part. It's too late and the customer has trashed me sufficiently that I'll save any chits I might have to salvage other cases. I can't even get a response back from Andrew Gasper on this original email. Is he even with SolarEdge any longer? If he is not, I have zero idea who my rep might be. So here we are coming up at 2-months of a system down for a communications card that still has not been released from SolarEdge. But don't worry, SolarEdge has not received one caustic comment but even as I pass along the chat sessions from SolarEdge tech support to the hyper-writing customer on social media, the customer fully lays blame on my team. And I suppose that is how SolarEdge expected this would go down with your team anticipating that installers like me would crowd-source RMAs from our own stock. Just as my LinkedIn article presciently described. I hope you push this up your side of the company to the COO and CEO. They need to hear this. From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2023 9:07 AM To: 'Andrew Gasper' > Subject: RE: Action Items from 8/23/22 Andrew - are you still with SolarEdge? From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2022 4:06 PM To: 'Andrew Gasper' > Subject: RE: Action Items from 8/23/22 Any update on the generator support? One of my customers - a major electrical contract - has been politely asking and my non-answer to him is killing me reputation-wise? Any statement or better, yet a firmware solution? From: Andrew Gasper > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2022 3:57 PM To: scot.arey at solarcentex.com Subject: Action Items from 8/23/22 Hi Scot, I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with me today, and your candor in sharing your experiences working with SolarEdge. I wanted to follow up our call with a list of the action items I am moving forward with. First, I will again pass along your feedback on the hold times for tech support, and the messaging that was shared with your customer from our support team. This is valuable feedback for us to receive, and I want to assure you that we will use any and all feedback you provide to improve ourselves every day. Next, I am going to work to secure a formal statement for you, in writing, to share with your customers about the generator support status. I know that this is a very important topic for you, and one that has caused stress both currently and in the past. When I receive guidance on this request, I will promptly share with you. Finally, I will begin looking into the specific RMA timeline and the potential for securing seed stock for you to use as RMA replacements. In order to best do this, I recommend that we work together to better understand your entire fleet, and additionally use the existing cases that you have open and are waiting for RMA replacements. Please share with me any specific cases that you would like me to take a closer look at to see if I am able to escalate any issues. I hope again that you found our conversation to be a valuable use of your time. I look forward to working with you going forward. Best regards, Andy Gasper Inside Sales Account Executive M +1-510-880-4277 andrew.ga at solaredge.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 30 14:47:02 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:47:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris: Just because you can’t imagine something does not mean it is not reality. [image: a firefighter using a saw to cut into a metal wall to gain access to a fire | Nancy Greifenhagen] Respectfully, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 I don't think the discussion has forked at all. A solution to this problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time imaging them being exposed to, is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY indicating that this section of the code is no longer to be considered a requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this requirement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 131433 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jan 30 13:16:50 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:16:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3b1b1ac9-a3fe-5000-2caa-cbda3267261d@solarray.com> Another point is that the tougher the code requirements, the more DIY folks will just do it on their own with little regard for the code at all.  Already in Colorado, most solar companies won't even touch off grid because of the code complications.  That just puts more folks off grid with horribly dangerous systems that don't have disconnects at all, much less remote accessible disconnects. The 2nd thing that happens, is that many of those potential off grid customers may then decide to go On grid because of the overly complicated requirements.  Those power lines being extended into remote areas, cause many of the forest fires devastating California and Colorado.  I think if the NFPA pulled back to consider the overall fire safety of the entire country, they would realize that off grid systems are better than extending the grid.  I think an off grid system wired to NEC 2008 is a reasonable combination of safety requirements. We need reasonable exceptions to these rules, and we need the code to quit changing so dramatically every cycle. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 1/30/2023 4:46 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I don't think the discussion has forked at all. A solution to this > problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including > firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time > imaging them being exposed to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo > IMMEDIATELY indicating that this section of the code is no longer to > be considered a requirement and that the next Code cycle will > eliminate this requirement. > > The other solutions discussed would only work for a few configurations > realistically and would introduce more danger. Chris > > > > On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> James, Brian and others: >> >> Thank you all for the lively discussion.  I am always interested in >> my colleague’s perspectives and this has been illuminating. >> >> It appears to me the discussion has forked:  One topic is how to deal >> with the reality of the new code regarding a very narrow scenario: >> ESS inside of a residence.  The other topic is: has the NEC evolved >> to be overly restrictive without factual basis? >> >> Regarding the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must >> provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage systems >> located in one or two family homes if the battery voltage exceeds 60 >> VDC.  There are very few areas that do not adopt the NEC.  If you >> install ESS you will eventually have to deal with this code >> requirement one way or another. >> >> Due to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local building >> departments, some of you may be able to skirt this requirement.  This >> is great until something happens. If your non-compliant installation >> causes a loss, you will end up in the defendants chair, not the >> building inspector. >> >> Here is how I approach these compliance conundrums:  If I could argue >> the code does not apply or there is a good reason to waive the >> requirement; if the building official agrees; if I feel the >> installation is really and truly safe without meeting the >>  requirement—only then could I proceed without the disconnect.  >> Otherwise I am going to have to find a way to comply. >> >> As contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: What is >> safe enough for my clients?  If any of you think you know more than >> the people who write the codes, then install what you can get away >> with and keep your fingers crossed.  I am not willing to live like that. >> >> Regarding the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly >> scare-mongering NFPA? >> >> What is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are >> trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is trying to >> protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an earthquake happens >> or a dump truck runs into your house, etc.). >> >> When California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters, I >> got my feelings hurt because I was losing business and I did not >> understand what it takes to fight a house fire.  I spoke with a few >> fire fighters and learned about roof and wall venting and how it is >> affected by prevailing winds.  I came around to appreciate there is a >> real need for rooftop fire setbacks. >> >> It is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into a wall >> with a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage conductors in >> or on that wall.  This code requirement for battery disconnecting >> means is fundamentally sensible.  That ends the discussion for me. >> >> Oh, yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing:  Does anyone have >> any factual data to share on this?  Regardless of that, does it >> really matter if the charge controller is saved but the house burns down? >> >> The islanding thing:  To be compliant, all ungrounded battery >> conductors need to be disconnected.  This includes the charge >> controller circuit(s).  With the charge controllers and inverters >> disconnected from the batteries and from each other there cannot be >> DC “islanding”. >> >> The house flooding thing:  At the surface, it appears you have a >> choice of disasters:  flood or fire.  I submit that fire is more >> destructive (I don’t think many people have died from a ruptured >> water pipe).  I don’t think it has to be either or:  Find a way to >> provide emergency power to freeze protection devices with that >> disconnect waived or under key in cooperation with the fire >> department.  This may mean the batteries need to remain connected.  >> Put those leads in metal raceway and mark their locations from the >> outside.  Work with building and fire officials. Limit your liability. >> >> Thanks again to all of you for the discussion.  I know what I need to do. >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*James Jarvis [mailto:jj at aprsworld.com] >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 7:03 PM >> *To:* Brian Mehalic >> *Cc:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >> >> Brian and William, >> >> With all due respect, I think your geographical location of >> California may be limiting in your understanding of the implications >> of local power security. >> >> Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and >> backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F >> outside and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours >> before their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after >> that pipes start to freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts >> to spray everywhere and then things can very quickly run into >> six-figure dollars amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this >> risk is by installing an ESS. >> >> Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior >> disconnects available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't >> for businesses. >> >> My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a >> buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible >> disconnects on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, >> there could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or >> access controlled disconnects. >> >> William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the >> battery disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just >> cheating. You had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT >> controllers can and do blow up when they lose their voltage reference >> (battery) under load. And removing the battery from the circuit does >> allow the charge controllers to island with the inverter and DC loads >> and do other damage. I know of a telecom customer that had hundreds >> of thousands of dollars of damage when their battery became >> disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full load, I'd guess >> you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea. >> >> >> -James Jefferson Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> +1-507-454-2727 >> >> http://www.aprsworld.com/ >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic >> wrote: >> >> Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel >> with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house >> already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about >> someone “flicking your switch!” >> >> In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for >> stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in >> one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the >> requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those >> same one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> >> >> >> On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / >> occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random >> person to be able to turn off my house or business with the >> flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much >> fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. >> >> >> -James Jefferson Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> +1-507-454-2727 >> >> http://www.aprsworld.com/ >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Esteemed wrenches: >> >> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire >> responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose >> having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge >> controllers later. >> >> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their >> homes… >> >> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage >> kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. >> >> William >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce >> wrote: >> >> All >> >> One thing that no one is talking about is what >> happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the >> Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers >> are under full load. >> >> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery >> breaker on a SolaArk  when the charge controllers are >> maxed, and see if you get lucky. >> >> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Jeremy: >> >> Thanks for posting the code references for those >> that had never looked them up. >> >> Chris: >> >> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, >> not specific to which or both panel types”? >> >> All: >> >> Code references are handy when receiving edicts >> from building officials, but not required, IMHO, >> for two reasons:  The contractor should already >> be versed in the codes and, building departments >> can mandate their own requirements above and >> beyond the code. >> >> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect >> for premise wiring as well as a DC battery >> disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the >> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes >> off.  However if the generator is running at the >> time, some battery inverters can operate when >> disconnected from batteries.  So to completely >> de-energize all components of an off-grid home >> you need to disconnect the generator and the >> battery leads. >> >> In this case the home is required to have fire >> sprinklers.  There is pressure pump to provide >> flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being >> powered by the inverter/battery system. I am >> going to apply for a waiver to remove the DC >> disconnect requirement on the grounds that the >> pressure pump is essential fire suppression >> equipment.  Instead I will propose to supply an >> AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for >> accessibility and marking) that will disconnect >> all premise wiring except the pressure pump. >> >> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply >> the logic that the voltage specification is for >> nominal battery voltage and this project having a >> nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery >> disconnect. >> >> I will let the group know what response I >> receive. Regardless of how this works in this >> jurisdiction, I think these are both valid >> arguments worth trying in any jurisdiction >> requiring the battery disconnect. Some officials >> are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some >> are less so. >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM >> *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery >> disconnects >> >>  >> >> *2020 Code Language:* >> >> /*480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*/ >> >> /*(A) Disconnecting Means.*/*//*/A disconnecting >> means shall be provided for all ungrounded >> conductors derived from a stationary battery >> system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A >> disconnecting means shall be readily accessible >> and located within sight of the battery system./ >> >> /*N*/*//(B) Emergency Disconnect./ /*/For >> one-family and two-family dwellings, a >> disconnecting means or its remote control for a >> stationary battery system shall be located at a >> readily accessible location outside the building >> for emergency use. The disconnect shall be >> labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”./ >> >> */N/(C) Disconnection of Series Battery >> Circuits./ /*/Battery circuits exceeding 240 >> volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground >> and subject to field servicing shall have >> provisions to disconnect the series-connected >> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc >> nominal for maintenance by qualified persons. >> Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects >> shall be permitted./ >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> >> Solar Installation / Design >> >> All Solar, Inc. >> >> 1453 M St. >> >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and >> shorthand. >> >> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel >> via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a >> disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to >> which or both panel types, and then a dc >> disconnect with no code reference.  Was >> trying to convey a reasonable, safe >> approach.  A lot of bad information from fire >> department solar consultants making a lot of >> money fear mongering, which has led to this >> type of situation.  Chris >> >> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Glenn: >> >> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  >> Here is an excerpt from the Q&A with the >> building official: >> >> 4.Will you be requiring an external >> disconnect to disconnect the AC output of >> the inverter system from premise wiring? >> >> Yes, as required per 230.85 >> >> 5.Will you be requiring an external >> disconnect to disconnect batteries from >> the inverters? >> >> Yes >> >> If the DC disconnect was not required I >> would not be wasting everyone’s time with >> my post.  I try to be careful about that, >> researching on my own before posting and >> trying to make my questions very clear.  >> I also try not to embarrass myself with >> dumb questions, but that does happen >> occasionally… >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote >> battery disconnects >> >> Does the AHJ really want the batteries >> disconnected from conductors, or does he >> really just want the inverters to stop >> operating and producing AC within the house? >> >> Obviously there is a big difference here >> and it may be changing as the code evolves. >> >> -Glenn >> >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please >> excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> >> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >> >> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >> >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> >> *Cc: *William Miller; >> >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery >> disconnects >> >> Friends: >> >> We have a large-ish residential off-grid >> system install coming up. The AHJ has >> said they will require a remote battery >> disconnect.  I suspect there will be fire >> sprinkler controls and a pressure pump >> that would become inoperable if this >> system were engaged. In this case we will >> apply for a waiver. >> >> The last time this was discussed here as >> far as I can find was October of 2020.  >> At that time no one suggested any >> specific battery disconnect equipment. >> >> To further clarify my needs:  There will >> be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 >> 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two >> 175 amp PV recombiner outputs.  That is 6 >> poles of high amperage DC disconnects. >> >> The battery array will be either a >> UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet >> to be determined. In the case of lithium >> we will look for a system that can >> remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the >> case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not >> have that luxury. >> >> I have done some considerable research >> and have not found viable, high amperage, >> remotely activated shutdown equipment. >> >> I am wondering what hardware others may >> be using to achieve remote battery >> disconnecting in these types of cases.. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When >> one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 895-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- >                 Christopher Warfel >                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                                 401-466-8978 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 17:08:32 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:08:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches. You might want to consider turning off the inverter as a solution to turning off the batteries, we have this feature as part of our installs with outback real simple then no chance of AC anywhere, Not going to pop a CC, no chance of run on and it has passed every time. Just a thought that's a safe solution. With Outback you just have to turn off the master nothing else. "Fun time in a crazy world" On Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 7:58 AM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey folks - love the Code, hate it, don’t care about it or follow it: it > doesn’t matter to me. But if you want to change it you have to realize it > is a process with rules and procedures, and posting on this list that “the > NEC” should immediately “issue a memo” to do what you want or change what > you don’t like has ZERO effect. > > Brian > > On Jan 30, 2023, at 4:47 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > I don't think the discussion has forked at all. A solution to this > problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including > firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time imaging > them being exposed to, is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY > indicating that this section of the code is no longer to be considered a > requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this requirement. > > The other solutions discussed would only work for a few configurations > realistically and would introduce more danger. Chris > > > > On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > James, Brian and others: > > > > Thank you all for the lively discussion. I am always interested in my > colleague’s perspectives and this has been illuminating. > > > > It appears to me the discussion has forked: One topic is how to deal with > the reality of the new code regarding a very narrow scenario: ESS inside of > a residence. The other topic is: has the NEC evolved to be overly > restrictive without factual basis? > > > > Regarding the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must provide > battery disconnecting means for energy storage systems located in one or > two family homes if the battery voltage exceeds 60 VDC. There are very few > areas that do not adopt the NEC. If you install ESS you will eventually > have to deal with this code requirement one way or another. > > > > Due to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local building > departments, some of you may be able to skirt this requirement. This is > great until something happens. If your non-compliant installation causes a > loss, you will end up in the defendants chair, not the building inspector. > > > > Here is how I approach these compliance conundrums: If I could argue the > code does not apply or there is a good reason to waive the requirement; if > the building official agrees; if I feel the installation is really and > truly safe without meeting the requirement—only then could I proceed > without the disconnect. Otherwise I am going to have to find a way to > comply. > > > > As contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: What is safe > enough for my clients? If any of you think you know more than the people > who write the codes, then install what you can get away with and keep your > fingers crossed. I am not willing to live like that. > > > > Regarding the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly > scare-mongering NFPA? > > > > What is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are trying to > prevent house fires, this particular section is trying to protect fire > fighters after a fire starts (or an earthquake happens or a dump truck runs > into your house, etc.). > > > > When California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters, I got my > feelings hurt because I was losing business and I did not understand what > it takes to fight a house fire. I spoke with a few fire fighters and > learned about roof and wall venting and how it is affected by prevailing > winds. I came around to appreciate there is a real need for rooftop fire > setbacks. > > > > It is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into a wall with > a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage conductors in or on that > wall. This code requirement for battery disconnecting means is > fundamentally sensible. That ends the discussion for me. > > > > Oh, yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing: Does anyone have any > factual data to share on this? Regardless of that, does it really matter > if the charge controller is saved but the house burns down? > > > > The islanding thing: To be compliant, all ungrounded battery conductors > need to be disconnected. This includes the charge controller circuit(s). > With the charge controllers and inverters disconnected from the batteries > and from each other there cannot be DC “islanding”. > > > > The house flooding thing: At the surface, it appears you have a choice of > disasters: flood or fire. I submit that fire is more destructive (I don’t > think many people have died from a ruptured water pipe). I don’t think it > has to be either or: Find a way to provide emergency power to freeze > protection devices with that disconnect waived or under key in cooperation > with the fire department. This may mean the batteries need to remain > connected. Put those leads in metal raceway and mark their locations from > the outside. Work with building and fire officials. Limit your liability. > > > > Thanks again to all of you for the discussion. I know what I need to do. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* James Jarvis [mailto:jj at aprsworld.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 7:03 PM > *To:* Brian Mehalic > *Cc:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Brian and William, > > > > With all due respect, I think your geographical location of California may > be limiting in your understanding of the implications of local power > security. > > > > Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and > backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F outside > and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours before their > interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after that pipes start to > freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts to spray everywhere and > then things can very quickly run into six-figure dollars amounts of damage. > So one way of reducing this risk is by installing an ESS. > > > > Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior disconnects > available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't for businesses. > > > > My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a > buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible disconnects > on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there could be > slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or access controlled > disconnects. > > > > William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the battery > disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You > had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT controllers can and do blow > up when they lose their voltage reference (battery) under load. And > removing the battery from the circuit does allow the charge controllers to > island with the inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a > telecom customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when > their battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full > load, I'd guess you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea. > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic > wrote: > > Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a > main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many > cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!” > > > > In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for > stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and > two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an > emergency disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family > dwellings [230.85]. > > Brian Mehalic > > > > On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the > property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off > my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there > is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Esteemed wrenches: > > > > Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed > for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about > the charge controllers later. > > > > Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes… > > > > Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from > messing with it. Test it only after dark. > > > > William > > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce < > wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: > > All > > > > One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge > controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers > are under full load. > > Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk when > the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky. > > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jeremy: > > > > Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked > them up. > > > > Chris: > > > > What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or > both panel types”? > > > > All: > > > > Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, > but not required, IMHO, for two reasons: The contractor should already be > versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own > requirements above and beyond the code. > > > > It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as > well as a DC battery disconnect. In most cases if you disconnect the > inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off. However if the > generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when > disconnected from batteries. So to completely de-energize all components > of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery > leads. > > > > In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers. There is > pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being > powered by the inverter/battery system. I am going to apply for a waiver > to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure > pump is essential fire suppression equipment. Instead I will propose to > supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and > marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. > > > > By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage > specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a > nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. > > > > I will let the group know what response I receive. Regardless of how this > works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth > trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect. Some > officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so. > > > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM > *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > >  > > *2020 Code Language:* > > *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.* > > *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for > all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a > voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible > and located within sight of the battery system.* > > *N** (B) Emergency Disconnect. **For one-family and two-family dwellings, > a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system > shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for > emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.* > > *N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. **Battery circuits > exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject > to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected > strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by > qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be > permitted.* > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > > 1453 M St. > > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > > > On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not > specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no > code reference. Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach. A lot > of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of > money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation. Chris > > On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Glenn: > > > > As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required. Here is an excerpt from the Q&A > with the building official: > > > > 4. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC > output of the inverter system from premise wiring? > > Yes, as required per 230.85 > > 5. Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries > from the inverters? > > Yes > > > > If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s > time with my post. I try to be careful about that, researching on my own > before posting and trying to make my questions very clear. I also try not > to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally… > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM > *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Glenn Burt > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or > does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC > within the house? > > Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the > code evolves. > > > > -Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches > > *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: *William Miller; > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > > Friends: > > > > We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up. The > AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect. I suspect > there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become > inoperable if this system were engaged. In this case we will apply for a > waiver. > > > > The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of > 2020. At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect > equipment. > > > > To further clarify my needs: There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters > (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner > outputs. That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. > > > > The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand > yet to be determined. In the case of lithium we will look for a system > that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown. In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, > we will not have that luxury. > > > > I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high > amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment. > > > > I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery > disconnecting in these types of cases.. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 895-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Jan 30 17:44:58 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 22:44:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, I have never heard about them, but I am interested. If you get any more information, I'd love to hear about it. Do they do 48V batteries? or an AC ESS? Are there spec sheets available? I've been able to find very little information about them. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 23, 2023 7:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries Has anyone had any experience with the VillaGrid Lithium Titanium batteries? They are supposedly usable in below zero temperatures, which of course the LFP batteries are not. They also apparently have a 20 year 10,000 cycle warranty (not that I really put much stock in being able to exercise a warranty even 15 years out). They are doing their own distribution at this point, but the sales person wouldn't tell me pricing until I sat in on a more formal presentation, which tells me I'm not going to be overly thrilled with the price point. They are very new on the market, but just thought I'd ask. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ [https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1MQF8aTcFNnBR59ia5JAm1DsPHCxzNkPx&export=download] Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 18:13:56 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 15:13:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey wrenches I have been to the Sacramento facility, they are 48 vdc nom. We ran some tests on site pushing pretty hard and the battery did well, no volt drop, was well over 250 amps for an extended period of time. It might be good to reach out to them and do a visit to see how it works, bring your own DC Clamp to confirm the instrument readings. Jerry On Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 2:45 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Howie, > > I have never heard about them, but I am interested. If you get any more > information, I'd love to hear about it. Do they do 48V batteries? or an AC > ESS? > > Are there spec sheets available? > > I've been able to find very little information about them. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC* > *Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > * (801) 631-5584 (Cell) * > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, January 23, 2023 7:00 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Howie Michaelson > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries > > Has anyone had any experience with the VillaGrid Lithium Titanium > batteries? They are supposedly usable in below zero temperatures, which of > course the LFP batteries are not. They also apparently have a 20 year > 10,000 cycle warranty (not that I really put much stock in being able to > exercise a warranty even 15 years out). They are doing their own > distribution at this point, but the sales person wouldn't tell me pricing > until I sat in on a more formal presentation, which tells me I'm not going > to be overly thrilled with the price point. They are very new on the > market, but just thought I'd ask. > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Mon Jan 30 20:42:48 2023 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 20:42:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing Message-ID: Hello wrenches, I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building where he has four points of connection for four tenants. Are there any good solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this situation. Production metering will be done via SolarEdge revenue grade meters. With kind of regards Carl Adams SunRock Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com Mon Jan 30 21:38:25 2023 From: thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com (Thomas Hall) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 02:38:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78730B9F-3321-4862-80AA-B55F11B46D1A@solarspecialtygroup.com> In my opinion, the eGauge meter is the Cadillac, and has multiple inputs. Thomas Hall > On Jan 30, 2023, at 3:43 PM, Carl Adams via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello wrenches, > I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building where he has four points of connection for four tenants. Are there any good solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this situation. Production metering will be done via SolarEdge revenue grade meters. > > With kind of regards > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jan 30 21:55:27 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 18:55:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl,             In my area (PG&E, N. California) I've installed solar on four of my rentals.  Rather than trying to figure out monthly billing, renters come, renters go, true-up, some occasionally don't pay their bills, etc. I decided to just bump up the rent to cover the average cost of power.  The tenant still gets the PG&E bill and pays the ~$10/mo. meter charge and if they are there at true-up time they pay zero or a small end-of-year amount.  My renters have been happy with this arrangement.             You have to do some math to have it come out close and I did the grid-ties after each rental had some electrical history.  Fortunately nobody has decided to have a grow-room, yet.  Whenever an appliance needs replacing, I install Energy Star replacements.  Of course I tell them that if they are reasonably careful their true-up will be little to none.  Eventually my investment gets paid off and the higher rent goes into my pocket instead of PG&E's.  Win-win. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 1/30/2023 5:42 PM, Carl Adams via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello wrenches, > I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building > where he has four points of connection for four tenants.  Are there > any good solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this > situation.  Production metering will be done via  SolarEdge revenue > grade meters. > > With kind of regards > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 22:02:16 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 19:02:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carl Wrenches, E Guage make a great energy monitoring platform Jerry On Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 5:43 PM Carl Adams via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello wrenches, > I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building where he > has four points of connection for four tenants. Are there any good > solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this situation. > Production metering will be done via SolarEdge revenue grade meters. > > With kind of regards > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jan 30 22:21:07 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 19:21:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill: I’m not sure what you are doing is entirely legal. Tenants can only be billed for actual (measured) utility usage. This does not necessarily apply to your situation but it should be noted: Tenants must be billed at the rate the landlord is charged— no marking up the cost. I’d say anyone with tenants wanting to pass on utility costs needs to sub-meter. Good records need to be kept. If you are being billed at TOU and/or tiered rates then you need to do the accounting and bill at the variable rates. E-Gauge is a fine platform for that. You can download an hour-by-hour record and apply the correct rates. William Miller On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:54 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Carl, > > In my area (PG&E, N. California) I've installed solar on > four of my rentals. Rather than trying to figure out monthly billing, > renters come, renters go, true-up, some occasionally don't pay their > bills, etc. I decided to just bump up the rent to cover the average cost > of power. The tenant still gets the PG&E bill and pays the ~$10/mo. > meter charge and if they are there at true-up time they pay zero or a > small end-of-year amount. My renters have been happy with this > arrangement. > > You have to do some math to have it come out close and I > did the grid-ties after each rental had some electrical history. > Fortunately nobody has decided to have a grow-room, yet. Whenever an > appliance needs replacing, I install Energy Star replacements. Of > course I tell them that if they are reasonably careful their true-up > will be little to none. Eventually my investment gets paid off and the > higher rent goes into my pocket instead of PG&E's. Win-win. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd > . > (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 1/30/2023 5:42 PM, Carl Adams via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building > > where he has four points of connection for four tenants. Are there > > any good solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this > > situation. Production metering will be done via SolarEdge revenue > > grade meters. > > > > With kind of regards > > Carl Adams > > SunRock Solar > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Jan 31 09:23:21 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 09:23:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c4b64b8-5e2d-4f29-a35f-5948409e61f6@entech-engineering.com> There are quite a few utility grade submeters out there. Leviton is one, and here is a link: https://www.leviton.com/en/products/commercial/submetering/submeters#t=Products&sort=%40wcs_site_tree_rank%20ascending&layout=card Usually a utility will not let you distribute renewable energy to more than one meter, but some programs allow this, so I am just mentioning to make sure this can happen. In any case, these meters will give you an inexpensive way to know what each tenant is using. Chris On 1/30/2023 8:42 PM, Carl Adams via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello wrenches, > I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building > where he has four points of connection for four tenants.  Are there > any good solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this > situation.  Production metering will be done via  SolarEdge revenue > grade meters. > > With kind of regards > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Jan 31 19:56:02 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 16:56:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 230.46 spliced and tapped conductors Message-ID: Hi Wrenches - Occasionally we will do supply side connection for our PV systems. As of 1/1/2023 in CA, we follow the 2020 NEC 705.11 Supply-Side Source Connections section. Recently, an inspector asked us to comply with the following: 230.46 Spliced and Tapped Conductors Service-entrance conductors shall be permitted to be spliced or tapped in accordance with 110.14, 300.5(E), 300.13, and 300.15. Power distribution blocks, pressure connectors, and devices for splices and taps shall be listed. Power distribution blocks installed on service conductors shall be marked "suitable for use on the line side of the service equipment" or equivalent. Effective January 1, 2023, pressure connectors and devices for splices and taps installed on service conductors shall be marked "suitable for use on the line side of the service equipment" or equivalent. When we reached out to one supplier of insulation piercing connectors (ILSCO), they responded: "We are still in testing, I just checked and from what I see there are no products listed for this new requirement yet by any manufacturer." Has anyone bumped into this before and/or have any proposed solutions? Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at sunforgellc.com Wed Feb 1 13:25:11 2023 From: alex at sunforgellc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 10:25:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Oh, yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing: Does anyone have any factual data to share on this? Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would be considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and likely would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The charge controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly when the output voltage gets too high. The only time we run into trouble during a load dump is if there is another charger that is less well-behaved, such as an alternator, running at the same time. This most commonly happens on sailboats, when someone turns off the ignominious battery switch with the engine still running. The alternator spikes the battery line from 12V up to 50-100V+ before the alternator regulator can respond, and the charge controller (and other electronics aboard) might not survive. Tangential to this conversation, it seems battery switches cause our marine and RV customers way more problems than they solve. It seems important to have one, but I wish they were a little more towards the break-glass-in-case-of-emergency end of the accessibility spectrum. Thank as always, Wrenches, for the information you share and high level of discourse. Alex MeVay Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Feb 1 13:31:55 2023 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 13:31:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Esteemed Wrenchies, Love this discussion. It is clear to me after many years of watching this that the industry needs to have an Emergency Shutdown standard that includes an emergency shutdown of the BMS of every battery as well as the inverter's circuits including MPPTs if all all-in-one. We are pushing now for all battery and inverter manufacturers to include this feature in their inverter communications so that if the inverter emergency shutdown pins are shorted -every battery shuts down. This would avoid the ridiculous requirement of every battery cable being on a relay/contactor or bringing it to the outside of the house! > Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > January 30, 2023 at 5:08 PM > Wrenches. > You might want to consider turning off the inverter as a solution to > turning off the batteries, we have this feature as part of our > installs with outback real simple then no chance of AC anywhere, Not > going to pop a CC, no chance of run on and it has passed every time. > Just a thought that's a safe solution. With Outback you just have to > turn off the master nothing else. > "Fun time in a crazy world" > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches > January 30, 2023 at 10:54 AM > Hey folks - love the Code, hate it, don’t care about it or follow it: > it doesn’t matter to me. But if you want to change it you have to > realize it is a process with rules and procedures, and posting on this > list that “the NEC” should immediately “issue a memo” to do what you > want or change what you don’t like has ZERO effect. > > Brian > >> On Jan 30, 2023, at 4:47 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> I don't think the discussion has forked at all.  A solution to this >> problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including >> firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time >> imaging them being exposed to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo >> IMMEDIATELY indicating that this section of the code is no longer to >> be considered a requirement and that the next Code cycle will >> eliminate this requirement. >> >> The other solutions discussed would only work for a few >> configurations realistically and would introduce more danger. Chris >> >> >> >> On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> James, Brian and others: >>> >>> Thank you all for the lively discussion.  I am always interested in >>> my colleague’s perspectives and this has been illuminating. >>> >>> It appears to me the discussion has forked:  One topic is how to >>> deal with the reality of the new code regarding a very narrow >>> scenario: ESS inside of a residence.  The other topic is: has the >>> NEC evolved to be overly restrictive without factual basis? >>> >>> Regarding the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must >>> provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage systems >>> located in one or two family homes if the battery voltage exceeds 60 >>> VDC.  There are very few areas that do not adopt the NEC.  If you >>> install ESS you will eventually have to deal with this code >>> requirement one way or another. >>> >>> Due to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local >>> building departments, some of you may be able to skirt this >>> requirement.  This is great until something happens.  If your >>> non-compliant installation causes a loss, you will end up in the >>> defendants chair, not the building inspector. >>> >>> Here is how I approach these compliance conundrums:  If I could >>> argue the code does not apply or there is a good reason to waive the >>> requirement; if the building official agrees; if I feel the >>> installation is really and truly safe without meeting the >>>  requirement—only then could I proceed without the disconnect.  >>> Otherwise I am going to have to find a way to comply. >>> >>> As contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: What is >>> safe enough for my clients?  If any of you think you know more than >>> the people who write the codes, then install what you can get away >>> with and keep your fingers crossed.  I am not willing to live like that. >>> >>> Regarding the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly >>> scare-mongering NFPA? >>> >>> What is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are >>> trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is trying to >>> protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an earthquake happens >>> or a dump truck runs into your house, etc.). >>> >>> When California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters, I >>> got my feelings hurt because I was losing business and I did not >>> understand what it takes to fight a house fire.  I spoke with a few >>> fire fighters and learned about roof and wall venting and how it is >>> affected by prevailing winds.  I came around to appreciate there is >>> a real need for rooftop fire setbacks. >>> >>> It is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into a >>> wall with a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage >>> conductors in or on that wall.  This code requirement for battery >>> disconnecting means is fundamentally sensible.  That ends the >>> discussion for me. >>> >>> Oh, yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing:  Does anyone have >>> any factual data to share on this?  Regardless of that, does it >>> really matter if the charge controller is saved but the house burns >>> down? >>> >>> The islanding thing:  To be compliant, all ungrounded battery >>> conductors need to be disconnected.  This includes the charge >>> controller circuit(s).  With the charge controllers and inverters >>> disconnected from the batteries and from each other there cannot be >>> DC “islanding”. >>> >>> The house flooding thing:  At the surface, it appears you have a >>> choice of disasters:  flood or fire.  I submit that fire is more >>> destructive (I don’t think many people have died from a ruptured >>> water pipe).  I don’t think it has to be either or:  Find a way to >>> provide emergency power to freeze protection devices with that >>> disconnect waived or under key in cooperation with the fire >>> department.  This may mean the batteries need to remain connected.  >>> Put those leads in metal raceway and mark their locations from the >>> outside. Work with building and fire officials.  Limit your liability. >>> >>> Thanks again to all of you for the discussion.  I know what I need >>> to do. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> *From:*James Jarvis [mailto:jj at aprsworld.com] >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 7:03 PM >>> *To:* Brian Mehalic >>> *Cc:* RE-wrenches; william at millersolar.com >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>> Brian and William, >>> >>> With all due respect, I think your geographical location of >>> California may be limiting in your understanding of the implications >>> of local power security. >>> >>> Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power >>> and backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is >>> -30F outside and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours >>> before their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after >>> that pipes start to freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts >>> to spray everywhere and then things can very quickly run into >>> six-figure dollars amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this >>> risk is by installing an ESS. >>> >>> Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior >>> disconnects available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't >>> for businesses. >>> >>> My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a >>> buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible >>> disconnects on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, >>> there could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX >>> or access controlled disconnects. >>> >>> William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the >>> battery disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just >>> cheating. You had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT >>> controllers can and do blow up when they lose their voltage >>> reference (battery) under load. And removing the battery from the >>> circuit does allow the charge controllers to island with the >>> inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a telecom >>> customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when >>> their battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it >>> at full load, I'd guess you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea. >>> >>> >>> -James Jefferson Jarvis >>> APRS World, LLC >>> +1-507-454-2727 >>> >>> http://www.aprsworld.com/ >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic >>> wrote: >>> >>> Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel >>> with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house >>> already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about >>> someone “flicking your switch!” >>> >>> In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for >>> stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in >>> one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the >>> requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those >>> same one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. >>> >>> Brian Mehalic >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / >>> occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random >>> person to be able to turn off my house or business with the >>> flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too >>> much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy. >>> >>> >>> -James Jefferson Jarvis >>> APRS World, LLC >>> +1-507-454-2727 >>> >>> http://www.aprsworld.com/ >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Esteemed wrenches: >>> >>> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire >>> responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose >>> having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge >>> controllers later. >>> >>> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their >>> homes… >>> >>> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to >>> discourage kids from messing with it. Test it only after >>> dark. >>> >>> William >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce >>> wrote: >>> >>> All >>> >>> One thing that no one is talking about is what >>> happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the >>> Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers >>> are under full load. >>> >>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery >>> breaker on a SolaArk  when the charge controllers >>> are maxed, and see if you get lucky. >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Jeremy: >>> >>> Thanks for posting the code references for those >>> that had never looked them up. >>> >>> Chris: >>> >>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, >>> not specific to which or both panel types”? >>> >>> All: >>> >>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts >>> from building officials, but not required, IMHO, >>> for two reasons:  The contractor should already >>> be versed in the codes and, building departments >>> can mandate their own requirements above and >>> beyond the code. >>> >>> It may seem redundant to require an AC >>> disconnect for premise wiring as well as a DC >>> battery disconnect.  In most cases if you >>> disconnect the inverter from the batteries the >>> AC power goes off.  However if the generator is >>> running at the time, some battery inverters can >>> operate when disconnected from batteries.  So to >>> completely de-energize all components of an >>> off-grid home you need to disconnect the >>> generator and the battery leads. >>> >>> In this case the home is required to have fire >>> sprinklers.  There is pressure pump to provide >>> flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being >>> powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am >>> going to apply for a waiver to remove the DC >>> disconnect requirement on the grounds that the >>> pressure pump is essential fire suppression >>> equipment. Instead I will propose to supply an >>> AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for >>> accessibility and marking) that will disconnect >>> all premise wiring except the pressure pump. >>> >>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply >>> the logic that the voltage specification is for >>> nominal battery voltage and this project having >>> a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the >>> battery disconnect. >>> >>> I will let the group know what response I >>> receive. Regardless of how this works in this >>> jurisdiction, I think these are both valid >>> arguments worth trying in any jurisdiction >>> requiring the battery disconnect. Some officials >>> are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some >>> are less so. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>> *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM >>> *To:* cwarfel at entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery >>> disconnects >>> >>>  >>> >>> *2020 Code Language:* >>> >>> /*480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*/ >>> >>> /*(A) Disconnecting Means.*/*//*/A disconnecting >>> means shall be provided for all ungrounded >>> conductors derived from a stationary battery >>> system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A >>> disconnecting means shall be readily accessible >>> and located within sight of the battery system./ >>> >>> /*N*/*//(B) Emergency Disconnect./ /*/For >>> one-family and two-family dwellings, a >>> disconnecting means or its remote control for a >>> stationary battery system shall be located at a >>> readily accessible location outside the building >>> for emergency use. The disconnect shall be >>> labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”./ >>> >>> */N/(C) Disconnection of Series Battery >>> Circuits./ /*/Battery circuits exceeding 240 >>> volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground >>> and subject to field servicing shall have >>> provisions to disconnect the series-connected >>> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc >>> nominal for maintenance by qualified persons. >>> Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects >>> shall be permitted./ >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> >>> Solar Installation / Design >>> >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> >>> 1453 M St. >>> >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and >>> shorthand. >>> >>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel >>> via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a >>> disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to >>> which or both panel types, and then a dc >>> disconnect with no code reference.  Was >>> trying to convey a reasonable, safe >>> approach.  A lot of bad information from >>> fire department solar consultants making a >>> lot of money fear mongering, which has led >>> to this type of situation.  Chris >>> >>> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Glenn: >>> >>> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is >>> required.  Here is an excerpt from the >>> Q&A with the building official: >>> >>> 4.Will you be requiring an external >>> disconnect to disconnect the AC output >>> of the inverter system from premise wiring? >>> >>> Yes, as required per 230.85 >>> >>> 5.Will you be requiring an external >>> disconnect to disconnect batteries from >>> the inverters? >>> >>> Yes >>> >>> If the DC disconnect was not required I >>> would not be wasting everyone’s time >>> with my post.  I try to be careful about >>> that, researching on my own before >>> posting and trying to make my questions >>> very clear.  I also try not to embarrass >>> myself with dumb questions, but that >>> does happen occasionally… >>> >>> William >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] >>> *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM >>> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* Glenn Burt >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote >>> battery disconnects >>> >>> Does the AHJ really want the batteries >>> disconnected from conductors, or does he >>> really just want the inverters to stop >>> operating and producing AC within the house? >>> >>> Obviously there is a big difference here >>> and it may be changing as the code evolves. >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please >>> excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> >>> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM >>> >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> >>> *Cc: *William Miller; >>> >>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery >>> disconnects >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> We have a large-ish residential off-grid >>> system install coming up. The AHJ has >>> said they will require a remote battery >>> disconnect.  I suspect there will be >>> fire sprinkler controls and a pressure >>> pump that would become inoperable if >>> this system were engaged. In this case >>> we will apply for a waiver. >>> >>> The last time this was discussed here as >>> far as I can find was October of 2020.  >>> At that time no one suggested any >>> specific battery disconnect equipment. >>> >>> To further clarify my needs:  There will >>> be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 6 >>> 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and >>> two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs.  That >>> is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects. >>> >>> The battery array will be either a >>> UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet >>> to be determined. In the case of lithium >>> we will look for a system that can >>> remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the >>> case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not >>> have that luxury. >>> >>> I have done some considerable research >>> and have not found viable, high >>> amperage, remotely activated shutdown >>> equipment. >>> >>> I am wondering what hardware others may >>> be using to achieve remote battery >>> disconnecting in these types of cases.. >>> >>> William >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: >>> http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When >>> one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 895-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > > January 30, 2023 at 6:46 AM > > I don't think the discussion has forked at all.  A solution to this > problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including > firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time > imaging them being exposed to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo > IMMEDIATELY indicating that this section of the code is no longer to > be considered a requirement and that the next Code cycle will > eliminate this requirement. > > The other solutions discussed would only work for a few configurations > realistically and would introduce more danger. Chris > > > > On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Wed Feb 1 14:49:16 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 13:49:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would be > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and likely > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The charge > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly > when the output voltage gets too high. So that's part of the picture. The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The discussion and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As far as I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that all of the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly the same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or generator or something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the case of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage stability will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 volt battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a fraction of second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause failures. Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input voltage on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At 34 volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a 150V input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it would be too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no way that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and expensive and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is with transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage spike caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the system adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see how equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn off the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, your system survived a load dump. If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by shutting off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before things catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and the box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when things do get wild. But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from the rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has been destroyed in these islanding events. Some thoughts, for what they are worth. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Feb 1 15:23:50 2023 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 15:23:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the SolArk will give up the smoke. Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big issue depending on what gear your using. On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would be > > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly > > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and likely > > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The charge > > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or > > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly > > when the output voltage gets too high. > > So that's part of the picture. > > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The discussion > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As far as > I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that all of > the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly the > same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers > getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or generator or > something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is > mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are > online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the case > of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is > providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is > acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, > there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage stability > will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 volt > battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a fraction of > second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause failures. > > > Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input voltage > on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at > their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At 34 > volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a 150V > input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it would be > too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no way > that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and expensive > and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of > stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is with > transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage spike > caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in > parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to > size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the system > adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. > > > There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see how > equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn off > the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on > battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, your > system survived a load dump. > > If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets > destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments > about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building > allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. > > I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar > controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by shutting > off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and > secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before things > catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and the > box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when things do > get wild. > > But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. > > I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to > cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from the > rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has been > destroyed in these islanding events. > > > Some thoughts, for what they are worth. > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 1 15:58:12 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 13:58:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> Message-ID: <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to clamp the open circuit voltage surge? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches wrote: I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the SolArk will give up the smoke. Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big issue depending on what gear your using. On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches > wrote: On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would be > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and likely > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The charge > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly > when the output voltage gets too high. So that's part of the picture. The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The discussion and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As far as I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that all of the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly the same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or generator or something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the case of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage stability will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 volt battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a fraction of second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause failures. Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input voltage on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At 34 volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a 150V input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it would be too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no way that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and expensive and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is with transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage spike caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the system adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see how equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn off the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, your system survived a load dump. If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by shutting off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before things catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and the box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when things do get wild. But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from the rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has been destroyed in these islanding events. Some thoughts, for what they are worth. -James Jarvis APRS World, LLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Wed Feb 1 16:10:05 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jefferson Jarvis) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 15:10:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers inductor to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds somewhere to go. Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more than Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of wire in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping requires additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile semiconductors. If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the voltage of an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the battery is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. It's not a regulator. - To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design electronics that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes space to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge controllers so they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy with the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude more expensive. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. > > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. > > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the > SolArk will give up the smoke. > > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big > issue depending on what gear your using. > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > > > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would be > > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly > > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and > likely > > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?).  The charge > > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or > > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly > > when the output voltage gets too high. > > So that's part of the picture. > > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The discussion > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As > far as > I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that > all of > the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly > the > same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers > getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or generator or > something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is > mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are > online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the case > of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is > providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is > acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, > there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage stability > will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 volt > battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a fraction of > second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause > failures. > > > Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input voltage > on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at > their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At 34 > volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a > 150V > input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it > would be > too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no way > that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and expensive > and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of > stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is with > transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage > spike > caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in > parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to > size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the system > adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. > > > There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see how > equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn off > the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on > battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, your > system survived a load dump. > > If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets > destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments > about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building > allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. > > I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar > controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by shutting > off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and > secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before things > catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and the > box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when things do > get wild. > > But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. > > I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to > cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from the > rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has been > destroyed in these islanding events. > > > Some thoughts, for what they are worth. > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Feb 1 16:49:19 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 14:49:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence over codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the fact of the matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, and very often none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact sometimes a group accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage that for something they do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would appeal to y'all to submit a proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due by September of this year. Better yet would be to circulate language that this, or some other, group can work on, agree on, write a solid technical justification for, and sign their names to and submit - the more stakeholders that support a proposal the more weight it has. It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may again begin work to develop PV and storage industry stakeholder-consensus PIs to submit; in the past this was a very successful endeavor. I'll post on this list if and when that happens so that anyone that is interested can get involved, but don't let that possibility keep you from submitting any PIs on your own. Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and then the batteries, would be worth designing. Brian Mehalic On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to > > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? > > That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I > explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the > output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers inductor > to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds > somewhere to go. > > Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more than > Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of wire > in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. > > MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge > controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping requires > additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile semiconductors. > > > If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the voltage of > an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the battery > is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays > clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. > It's not a regulator. > > - > > To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design electronics > that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace > electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes space > to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge controllers so > they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC > requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy with > the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude > more expensive. > > > > > > > > Larry Crutcher > > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear > > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under > > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. > > > > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when > > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. > > > > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the > > SolArk will give up the smoke. > > > > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big > > issue depending on what gear your using. > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would > be > > > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly > > > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and > > likely > > > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The > charge > > > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or > > > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly > > > when the output voltage gets too high. > > > > So that's part of the picture. > > > > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The > discussion > > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As > > far as > > I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that > > all of > > the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly > > the > > same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers > > getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or generator > or > > something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is > > mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are > > online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the > case > > of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is > > providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is > > acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, > > there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage stability > > will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 volt > > battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a fraction > of > > second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause > > failures. > > > > > > Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input > voltage > > on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at > > their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At > 34 > > volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a > > 150V > > input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it > > would be > > too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no way > > that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and expensive > > and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of > > stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is with > > transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage > > spike > > caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in > > parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to > > size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the > system > > adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. > > > > > > There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see how > > equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn > off > > the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on > > battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, > your > > system survived a load dump. > > > > If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets > > destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments > > about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building > > allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. > > > > I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar > > controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by > shutting > > off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and > > secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before > things > > catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and > the > > box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when things > do > > get wild. > > > > But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. > > > > I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to > > cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from > the > > rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has > been > > destroyed in these islanding events. > > > > > > Some thoughts, for what they are worth. > > > > -James Jarvis > > APRS World, LLC > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 1 17:57:45 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 17:57:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I have been following this discussion intently. I hate to say it, but it all sounds like a major case being made for AC-coupled system architecture, and even integrated "AC Batteries" like Powerwalls and Encharge that integrate the battery and inverter into listed Energy Storage Systems. As someone who keeps exploring getting back to DC Coupled systems for some significant reasons, the complexity and lack of standardization makes that a big leap. I started out with Heart 12V inverters and moved toward Xantrex SW and moved on to Outback GFX and dabbled in other brands before changing businesses and going basically all grid tie with Enphase, later with some Powerwalls and then back into battery backup exclusively with Enphase. In the last three years, I've dabbled with Sol-Ark and done service on a bunch of DC coupled brands (begrudgingly usually). The Enphase system is so limited in terms of max battery capacity, but in terms of design simplicity and safety, I can't think of a better option for consumers right now. The problem of dealing with high ampacity DC circuits keeps me from wanting to jump back into DC Coupled systems despite the advantages of cost, capacity and efficiency for off-grid applications and backup. So from what I'm reading here, the DC charge control is an issue when DC batteries are abruptly disconnected. It seems like an AC-coupled PV system is the answer to that, but it still leaves some DC battery disconnect issues to be considered, especially the remote disconnect issue that can come up. My pipe dream is for Enphase to drastically cut their price and drastically increase their battery capacity, and then get rid of all of the ridiculous communication issues that frustrate me endlessly. Their unique AC coupling that parallels generator output to PV via the System Controller is a novel approach, albeit limited in flexibility. Absent my dreams coming true, maybe someone will come along with an integrated answer that solves some of these DC coupling issues. I'm not holding my breath that standards will be developed. We're more likely to have a slow march toward AC coupling as codes make it harder and harder to comply with the DC issues. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 4:50 PM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance > agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence over > codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the fact of the > matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, and very often > none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact sometimes a group > accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage that for something they > do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would appeal to y'all to submit a > proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due by September of this year. Better > yet would be to circulate language that this, or some other, group can work > on, agree on, write a solid technical justification for, and sign their > names to and submit - the more stakeholders that support a proposal the > more weight it has. > > It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may again > begin work to develop PV and storage industry stakeholder-consensus PIs to > submit; in the past this was a very successful endeavor. I'll post on this > list if and when that happens so that anyone that is interested can get > involved, but don't let that possibility keep you from submitting any PIs > on your own. > > Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and then > the batteries, would be worth designing. > > Brian Mehalic > > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to >> > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? >> >> That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I >> explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the >> output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers inductor >> to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds >> somewhere to go. >> >> Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more than >> Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of wire >> in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. >> >> MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge >> controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping requires >> additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile semiconductors. >> >> >> If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the voltage of >> an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the battery >> is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays >> clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. >> It's not a regulator. >> >> - >> >> To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design electronics >> that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace >> electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes space >> to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge controllers so >> they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC >> requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy with >> the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude >> more expensive. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Larry Crutcher >> > Starlight Solar Power Systems >> > >> > >> > >> > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches >> > > > > wrote: >> > >> > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear >> > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under >> > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. >> > >> > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when >> > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. >> > >> > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the >> > SolArk will give up the smoke. >> > >> > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big >> > issue depending on what gear your using. >> > >> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches >> > > > > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you >> would be >> > > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly >> > > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and >> > likely >> > > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The >> charge >> > > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or >> > > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down >> instantly >> > > when the output voltage gets too high. >> > >> > So that's part of the picture. >> > >> > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The >> discussion >> > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As >> > far as >> > I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that >> > all of >> > the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly >> > the >> > same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers >> > getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or >> generator or >> > something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is >> > mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are >> > online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the >> case >> > of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is >> > providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is >> > acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, >> > there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage >> stability >> > will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 >> volt >> > battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a >> fraction of >> > second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause >> > failures. >> > >> > >> > Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input >> voltage >> > on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at >> > their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At >> 34 >> > volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a >> > 150V >> > input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it >> > would be >> > too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no >> way >> > that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and >> expensive >> > and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of >> > stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is >> with >> > transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage >> > spike >> > caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in >> > parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to >> > size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the >> system >> > adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. >> > >> > >> > There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see >> how >> > equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn >> off >> > the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on >> > battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, >> your >> > system survived a load dump. >> > >> > If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets >> > destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments >> > about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building >> > allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. >> > >> > I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar >> > controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by >> shutting >> > off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and >> > secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before >> things >> > catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and >> the >> > box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when >> things do >> > get wild. >> > >> > But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. >> > >> > I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to >> > cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from >> the >> > rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has >> been >> > destroyed in these islanding events. >> > >> > >> > Some thoughts, for what they are worth. >> > >> > -James Jarvis >> > APRS World, LLC >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 1 18:25:05 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 18:25:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 230.46 spliced and tapped conductors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As someone who does 75%+ supply-side interconnections, this kind of terrifies me. We have another year of NEC 2017 here, so I have time to prepare, but I'm watching this closely. Meter disconnects/reconnects here are difficult due to the lack of good utility company cooperation and the requirement for an inspection prior to reconnection, which leaves homeowners without power for many hours at times. Otherwise, I would just pop in a 200A main disconnect between the meter and main distribution panel and do a feeder tap for the inverter output between the new service disconnect and the existing distribution equipment. Unfortunately, that usually means bringing grounding electrodes and conductors up to current standards, but that's how we would be forced to comply if this splice/tap rule comes into effect here and there are no suitable products available. Side note: 200A 2-pole fusible disconnects are all but impossible to get here. Even 200A main breaker enclosures are very hard to find. Hurricane Ian didn't help that with thousands of people who had their service equipment under water... It has been a challenge. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 7:56 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches - > > Occasionally we will do supply side connection for our PV systems. As of > 1/1/2023 in CA, we follow the 2020 NEC 705.11 Supply-Side Source > Connections section. Recently, an inspector asked us to comply with the > following: > > 230.46 Spliced and Tapped Conductors > Service-entrance conductors shall be permitted to be spliced or tapped in > accordance with 110.14, 300.5(E), 300.13, and 300.15. Power distribution > blocks, pressure connectors, and devices for splices and taps shall be > listed. Power distribution blocks installed on service conductors shall be > marked "suitable for use on the line side of the service equipment" or > equivalent. > Effective January 1, 2023, pressure connectors and devices for splices and > taps installed on service conductors shall be marked "suitable for use on > the line side of the service equipment" or equivalent. > > > > When we reached out to one supplier of insulation piercing connectors > (ILSCO), they responded: "We are still in testing, I just checked and from > what I see there are no products listed for this new requirement yet by any > manufacturer." > > Has anyone bumped into this before and/or have any proposed solutions? > > Best, August > Luminalt > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Feb 1 19:18:03 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 17:18:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 230.46 spliced and tapped conductors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The requirements for power distribution blocks (PDB) to be marked “*suitable for use on the line side*…” when installed connected in that manner in wireways (Art. 376) and pull/junction boxes (Art. 314) have been in the NEC® for quite a few cycles. It looks like the additions to 230.46 in the 2020 NEC® (PDBs and splices/pressure connectors connected to service conductors must be marked “suitable for use…”) coincided with this explicit requirement being removed from 314 (though it remains in 376); this makes sense - if you’re using a PDB on the line side, well you’re connecting to some type of service conductors, so why not cover it in Art. 230 (maybe it’ll also be removed from 376 in 2026). UL 1953 allows for PDBs (UL product code QPQS) to be listed for connection on the line side, load side, or both, with those that can connect on the line side having the marking mentioned above. Note that many have an SCCR of 10 kA unless combined with the manufacturer-specified fuse type and size (or smaller), and have minimum enclosure sizes that must be followed as well. I have had a difficult time finding PDBs that are marked for use on the line side while just using the internet (and have been too lazy to pick up the phone thus far...plus it doesn't help that all PDBs have a line and load side of the device regardless of whether or not they are being connected on the line or load side of the service!). Of course many folks are not going to want to use PDBs due to re-routing conductors to them (if even possible) and having to shut down the utility supply to install them. Enter pressure connectors, and the seemingly industry-fave insulation-piercing style; unfortunately I'm not aware of any that are available *yet* with the proper listing and markings as required by 230.46. A colleague that works for a large electrical product manufacturer passed this along: *“No test existed for qualifying single polarity connectors suitable for line side use when this was added to the 2020 code with the January 1, 2023 date for enforcement. A strategy and test procedure needed to be developed and adopted by the UL CSDS working group. Not a speedy process. Long story short, after developing a strategy, public comment period and voting the standard wasn’t published until August of last year. On average the testing requirements take about 90 days. To further complicate matters, I was recently told that UL is still developing the submittal process. I know that there are a lot of companies currently testing products but until the UL submittal process catches up, no one will be official. The UL product code is ZMWW; as companies become qualified they should show up in the ZMWW search. As of today, no one is listed. This leaves power distribution blocks as the lone connector product rated for line side use. I know that Bussmann has some PDBs rated for line side use."So this begs the question of whether or not NEC® 90.4(D) can be invoked (new products not yet available at the time the Code is adopted...); PDBs already exist, so no dice there, and it is likely that since they exist, an argument using 90.4(D) in regards to pressure connectors/splices will fall on deaf ears because, well, use PDBs."* Ugh. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 4:26 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > As someone who does 75%+ supply-side interconnections, this kind of > terrifies me. We have another year of NEC 2017 here, so I have time to > prepare, but I'm watching this closely. > > Meter disconnects/reconnects here are difficult due to the lack of good > utility company cooperation and the requirement for an inspection prior to > reconnection, which leaves homeowners without power for many hours at > times. Otherwise, I would just pop in a 200A main disconnect between the > meter and main distribution panel and do a feeder tap for the inverter > output between the new service disconnect and the existing distribution > equipment. Unfortunately, that usually means bringing grounding electrodes > and conductors up to current standards, but that's how we would be forced > to comply if this splice/tap rule comes into effect here and there are no > suitable products available. > > Side note: 200A 2-pole fusible disconnects are all but impossible to get > here. Even 200A main breaker enclosures are very hard to find. Hurricane > Ian didn't help that with thousands of people who had their service > equipment under water... It has been a challenge. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 7:56 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches - >> >> Occasionally we will do supply side connection for our PV systems. As of >> 1/1/2023 in CA, we follow the 2020 NEC 705.11 Supply-Side Source >> Connections section. Recently, an inspector asked us to comply with the >> following: >> >> 230.46 Spliced and Tapped Conductors >> Service-entrance conductors shall be permitted to be spliced or tapped in >> accordance with 110.14, 300.5(E), 300.13, and 300.15. Power distribution >> blocks, pressure connectors, and devices for splices and taps shall be >> listed. Power distribution blocks installed on service conductors shall be >> marked "suitable for use on the line side of the service equipment" or >> equivalent. >> Effective January 1, 2023, pressure connectors and devices for splices >> and taps installed on service conductors shall be marked "suitable for use >> on the line side of the service equipment" or equivalent. >> >> >> >> When we reached out to one supplier of insulation piercing connectors >> (ILSCO), they responded: "We are still in testing, I just checked and from >> what I see there are no products listed for this new requirement yet by any >> manufacturer." >> >> Has anyone bumped into this before and/or have any proposed solutions? >> >> Best, August >> Luminalt >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Feb 1 22:06:49 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 20:06:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <9116e670-5f65-95c6-78be-8c7a5b38b075@midnitesolar.com>  SPDs or (MOVs) on the PV input side of a charge controller are not wired to snub excessive PV voltage. They are wired from PV+ to GND and the other from PV- to GND and only the two in series, at double the MOV clamp voltage would have any effect on clamping the PV+/PV- voltage. SPDs are wired to keep the charge controller's insulation system to below the Hi-Pot voltage the unit is tested with.  i.e.  They are wired for common-mode and not differential.  That voltage is much higher than maximum controller or inverter input voltage. What *IS* in place that might help limit PV voltage is the PV array itself.  Any PV voltage that would try go go above the array's  Voc  would be clamped across the array.  This would be during the day or at night and of course that Voc is determined mainly by PV cell temperature. Solar panels are just a bunch of diodes in series so will be forward-biased when Voc is exceeded by an inverter or charge controller.   PV modules make great space heaters and can even melt snow, ya know. 😁 As for charge controllers blowing up when charging hard and then disconnecting,  I am very anal in designing in safe guards to keep this from happening on the MidNite Classic at least.  That was done several years ago now. But even then, electronics, especially power  electronics, break once in a while and it is sometimes very hard to know why it happened. With our new HV MPPT controllers,  their E-Panels also include remote-trip PV breakers, triggered by the controller's hardware in order to reduce   battery side  over-voltage in case something goes wrong. So, I understand that we have a remote battery disconnect device basically done but have held off due to not knowing how important it would actually be.  300 amps from an external switch closure or open. Our older BD module basically went away with the bird house and bird next shut down system. There are NEC requirements that are not enforced and some installers don't  worry about including, but from this discussion, it sounds like this battery disconnect better be finished sooner than later. Now we know.  Thanks ! 🌜boB🌛  MidNite Solar On 2/1/2023 2:49 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: > Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance > agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence > over codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the > fact of the matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, > and very often none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact > sometimes a group accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage > that for something they do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would > appeal to y'all to submit a proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due > by September of this year. Better yet would be to circulate language > that this, or some other, group can work on, agree on, write a solid > technical justification for, and sign their names to and submit - the > more stakeholders that support a proposal the more weight it has. > > It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may > again begin work to develop PV and storage industry > stakeholder-consensus PIs to submit; in the past this was a very > successful endeavor. I'll post on this list if and when that happens > so that anyone that is interested can get involved, but don't let that > possibility keep you from submitting any PIs on your own. > > Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and > then the batteries, would be worth designing. > > Brian Mehalic > > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > > On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input > side to > > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? > > That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I > explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the > output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers > inductor > to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds > somewhere to go. > > Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more > than > Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of > wire > in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. > > MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge > controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping > requires > additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile > semiconductors. > > > If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the > voltage of > an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the > battery > is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays > clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. > It's not a regulator. > > - > > To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design > electronics > that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace > electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes > space > to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge > controllers so > they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC > requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy > with > the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude > more expensive. > > > > > > > > Larry Crutcher > > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear > > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller > is under > > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. > > > > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when > > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. > > > > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and > the > > SolArk will give up the smoke. > > > > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is > a big > > issue depending on what gear your using. > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via > RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >     On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >      > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what > you would be > >      > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump > (suddenly > >      > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for > us, and > >     likely > >      > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list > (boB?).  The charge > >      > controller can either handle full input voltage on the > output, or > >      > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down > instantly > >      > when the output voltage gets too high. > > > >     So that's part of the picture. > > > >     The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The > discussion > >     and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be > disconnected. As > >     far as > >     I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases > that > >     all of > >     the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at > exactly > >     the > >     same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge > controllers > >     getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or > generator or > >     something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is > >     mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the > loads are > >     online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply > in the case > >     of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and > nothing is > >     providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the > battery is > >     acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the > battery, > >     there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage > stability > >     will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your > normally 48 volt > >     battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a > fraction of > >     second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause > >     failures. > > > > > >     Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full > input voltage > >     on the output is probably unique to their niche product. > Looking at > >     their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 > volts. At 34 > >     volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his > output. For a > >     150V > >     input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it > >     would be > >     too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's > just no way > >     that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and > expensive > >     and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level > sort of > >     stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load > dump is with > >     transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the > voltage > >     spike > >     caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in > >     parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be > interesting to > >     size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in > the system > >     adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. > > > > > >     There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform > to see how > >     equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day > and turn off > >     the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn > back on > >     battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then > great, your > >     system survived a load dump. > > > >     If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your > system gets > >     destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security > comments > >     about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your > building > >     allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. > > > >     I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar > >     controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps > by shutting > >     off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and > >     secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips > before things > >     catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit > board and the > >     box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading > when things do > >     get wild. > > > >     But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. > > > >     I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery > systems to > >     cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the > battery from the > >     rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of > equipment has been > >     destroyed in these islanding events. > > > > > >     Some thoughts, for what they are worth. > > > >     -James Jarvis > >     APRS World, LLC > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Feb 1 22:22:52 2023 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 22:22:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 230.46 spliced and tapped conductors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <870b91c6-d69e-d527-bfc5-35d804a00b87@villagepowerdesign.com> We've transitioned from using supply-side taps to using Feeder taps re: 705.12(B) almost exclusively. The advantages are numerous - and you just added one more - not needing line side listing on your tap hardware. One of the most dangerous things I see looming in the present code is the fact that supply side taps can be safe for backfeeding up to 160 Amps of PV on a standard 200 Amps service IF you are only grid-tie and the current is canceling incoming current. But as soon as you add hybrid inverters and batteries.  Now you are adding significant battery charging amperage  to the NEC 220 load calcs that the service entrance connectors are based on..  Given that many residences utilized the downsize table for service entrance conductors you can quickly end up with a situation where your supply side tap is overloading your service entrance conductors if pulling the inverters full capability for battery charging and adding that to your normal house loads. Feeder taps take care of this vulnerability in the present code.  By having a main 200 Amp breaker on both sides of the tap as per 705.122 B - all conductors are protected for both the increased loads due to battery charging as well as being able to still use the full 160 Amps available for backfeed.  And you don't have to shut down the utility to install. Now you also add not needing to list your taps for supply side and you can use the venerable ILscos again . . . Hope that helps! Best, Jeff > Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches > February 1, 2023 at 7:18 PM > The requirements for power distribution blocks (PDB) to be marked > “*suitable for use on the line side*…” when installed connected in > that manner in wireways (Art. 376) and pull/junction boxes (Art. 314) > have been in the NEC® for quite a few cycles. > > It looks like the additions to 230.46 in the 2020 NEC® (PDBs and > splices/pressure connectors connected to service conductors must be > marked “suitable for use…”) coincided with this explicit requirement > being removed from 314 (though it remains in 376); this makes sense - > if you’re using a PDB on the line side, well you’re connecting to some > type of service conductors, so why not cover it in Art. 230 (maybe > it’ll also be removed from 376 in 2026). > > UL 1953 allows for PDBs (UL product code QPQS) to be listed for > connection on the line side, load side, or both, with those that can > connect on the line side having the marking mentioned above. Note that > many have an SCCR of 10 kA unless combined with > the manufacturer-specified fuse type and size (or smaller), and have > minimum enclosure sizes that must be followed as well. I have had a > difficult time finding PDBs that are marked for use on the line side > while just using the internet (and have been too lazy to pick up the > phone thus far...plus it doesn't help that all PDBs have a line and > load side of the device regardless of whether or not they are being > connected on the line or load side of the service!). > > Of course many folks are not going to want to use PDBs due to > re-routing conductors to them (if even possible) and having to shut > down the utility supply to install them. Enter pressure connectors, > and the seemingly industry-fave insulation-piercing style; > unfortunately I'm not aware of any that are available *yet* with the > proper listing and markings as required by 230.46. > > A colleague that works for a large electrical product manufacturer > passed this along: > > /“No test existed for qualifying single polarity connectors suitable > for line side use when this was added to the 2020 code with the > January 1, 2023 date for enforcement.  A strategy and test procedure > needed to be developed and adopted by the UL CSDS working group.  Not > a speedy process.  Long story short, after developing a strategy, > public comment period and voting the *standard wasn’t published until > August of last year.*  On average the testing requirements take about > 90 days.  To further complicate matters, I was recently told that UL > is still developing the submittal process. > > I know that there are a lot of companies currently testing products > but until the UL submittal process catches up, no one will be > official.  The *UL product code is ZMWW*; as companies become > qualified they should show up in the ZMWW search.  As of today, no one > is listed.  This leaves power distribution blocks as the lone > connector product rated for line side use.  I know that Bussmann has > some PDBs rated for line side use." > > So this begs the question of whether or not NEC® 90.4(D) can be > invoked (new products not yet available at the time the Code is > adopted...); PDBs already exist, so no dice there, and it is likely > that since they exist, an argument using 90.4(D) in regards to > pressure connectors/splices will fall on deaf ears because, well, use > PDBs."/ > > Ugh. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > February 1, 2023 at 6:25 PM > As someone who does 75%+ supply-side interconnections, this kind of > terrifies me. We have another year of NEC 2017 here, so I have time to > prepare, but I'm watching this closely. > > Meter disconnects/reconnects here are difficult due to the lack of > good utility company cooperation and the requirement for an inspection > prior to reconnection, which leaves homeowners without power for many > hours at times. Otherwise, I would just pop in a 200A main disconnect > between the meter and main distribution panel and do a feeder tap for > the inverter output between the new service disconnect and the > existing distribution equipment. Unfortunately, that usually means > bringing grounding electrodes and conductors up to current standards, > but that's how we would be forced to comply if this splice/tap rule > comes into effect here and there are no suitable products available. > > Side note: 200A 2-pole fusible disconnects are all but impossible to > get here. Even 200A main breaker enclosures are very hard to find. > Hurricane Ian didn't help that with thousands of people who had their > service equipment under water... It has been a challenge. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > August Goers via RE-wrenches > January 31, 2023 at 7:56 PM > Hi Wrenches - > > Occasionally we will do supply side connection for our PV systems. As > of 1/1/2023 in CA, we follow the 2020 NEC 705.11 Supply-Side Source > Connections section. Recently, an inspector asked us to comply with > the following: > > > > When we reached out to one supplier of insulation piercing connectors > (ILSCO), they responded: "We are still in testing, I just checked and > from what I see there are no products listed for this new requirement > yet by any manufacturer." > > Has anyone bumped into this before and/or have any proposed solutions? > > Best, August > Luminalt > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Feb 2 18:53:10 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2023 23:53:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: <9116e670-5f65-95c6-78be-8c7a5b38b075@midnitesolar.com> References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> <9116e670-5f65-95c6-78be-8c7a5b38b075@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Hello all, I have been an off-grid specialist for 12 years now, and I have never seen or heard of a charge controller blowing itself up when it was disconnected from the battery while it was in steady state. What I mean is that if it's in bulk mode, or absorb mode, or float mode, and the battery disconnect is suddenly opened, nothing has ever happened. And this actually has happened a lot of times in my career. Most of my clients have a DIY attitude, so if they think something is wrong, they'll start flipping breakers off randomly until they have shut everything down in order to "reset" the system, and then they turn it all back on, and if the problem persists, they feel like they've tried something, so then they call. I've had helpers who just can't remember which breaker to shut off first. Since I've never seen or heard of an actual case where this happened, I don't worry about it to much. I have seen something similar blow up an Outback FM80 once. The charge controller was 7 years old at the time. I was watching the whole time. The system was shut down when we arrived, then the PV breaker was turned on, then the battery breaker was turned on momentarily, then the battery breaker was shut back off. The charge controller went into the startup procedure, and it went to sweep the IV curve, and as it did, it was pumping all that power into it's capacitors and it had nowhere to go. I watched the voltage on the screen skyrocket and then it suddenly burned out with a small pop. The charge controller was stuck in the startup, and it wasn't able to stop producing current. If the battery breaker had been left on while it stabilized, then it was shut off, it would have been fine. So if you turn on the system, don't suddenly trip the disconnect until it has been on for a minute. Also, inverters have capacitors that are much, much, much larger than the capacitors in the charge controller, so when a main battery disconnect is thrown and the charge controller is connected to an inverter Now, I completely avoid cheap charge controllers (Amazon charge controllers, etc.). I don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. I have seen so many DIYers reject my advice, install a cheap one, and have it burn up within a couple of years or less. I wouldn't be surprised if suddenly disconnecting the battery would be a likely cause of failure in these cases. Also, with any quality brand, if this somehow did happen, they'll still honor it under their warranty, and this will be a rare occurrence. William said that SolArk can't handle having the breaker thrown while it's charging the battery, so there are definitely exceptions. I've never used SolArk, but with everything else I've heard about them, I'm really not too surprised. I'm not faulting SolArk, and I'm not a SolArk hater, I just know that their hands are somewhat bound by the real manufacturer who is in China. SolArk only has limited control of their product. But as boB from MidNite pointed out, it all equipment can and should be designed with this in mind. Fuses will blow, breakers will get tripped, and any quality manufacturer is going to take that into consideration. They can take the low road and simply plan on replacing some under warranty, or the can engineer the product to withstand it. One last note about codes, there are some codes that I hate and try to avoid, but I also personally know 2 or 3 of the people on the code panels. There are some people on the code panels who are not kind to our industry, but there are a couple of people on those panels who really are our advocates. If someone is on the code panel, they are actually limited in how they can suggest new changes to the codes, they can only promote public inputs that are submitted by people like us, so even if it feels like a waist of time, it really is important that we all submit our ideas and thoughts through the official pathways so that our advocates who really want to promote our best interests have something they can leverage for us. To those here who do help with the codes and help to advocate for us, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of bob--- via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:06 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: bob at midnitesolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects SPDs or (MOVs) on the PV input side of a charge controller are not wired to snub excessive PV voltage. They are wired from PV+ to GND and the other from PV- to GND and only the two in series, at double the MOV clamp voltage would have any effect on clamping the PV+/PV- voltage. SPDs are wired to keep the charge controller's insulation system to below the Hi-Pot voltage the unit is tested with. i.e. They are wired for common-mode and not differential. That voltage is much higher than maximum controller or inverter input voltage. What *IS* in place that might help limit PV voltage is the PV array itself. Any PV voltage that would try go go above the array's Voc would be clamped across the array. This would be during the day or at night and of course that Voc is determined mainly by PV cell temperature. Solar panels are just a bunch of diodes in series so will be forward-biased when Voc is exceeded by an inverter or charge controller. PV modules make great space heaters and can even melt snow, ya know. 😁 As for charge controllers blowing up when charging hard and then disconnecting, I am very anal in designing in safe guards to keep this from happening on the MidNite Classic at least. That was done several years ago now. But even then, electronics, especially power electronics, break once in a while and it is sometimes very hard to know why it happened. With our new HV MPPT controllers, their E-Panels also include remote-trip PV breakers, triggered by the controller's hardware in order to reduce battery side over-voltage in case something goes wrong. So, I understand that we have a remote battery disconnect device basically done but have held off due to not knowing how important it would actually be. 300 amps from an external switch closure or open. Our older BD module basically went away with the bird house and bird next shut down system. There are NEC requirements that are not enforced and some installers don't worry about including, but from this discussion, it sounds like this battery disconnect better be finished sooner than later. Now we know. Thanks ! 🌜boB🌛 MidNite Solar On 2/1/2023 2:49 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence over codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the fact of the matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, and very often none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact sometimes a group accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage that for something they do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would appeal to y'all to submit a proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due by September of this year. Better yet would be to circulate language that this, or some other, group can work on, agree on, write a solid technical justification for, and sign their names to and submit - the more stakeholders that support a proposal the more weight it has. It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may again begin work to develop PV and storage industry stakeholder-consensus PIs to submit; in the past this was a very successful endeavor. I'll post on this list if and when that happens so that anyone that is interested can get involved, but don't let that possibility keep you from submitting any PIs on your own. Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and then the batteries, would be worth designing. Brian Mehalic On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches > wrote: On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers inductor to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds somewhere to go. Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more than Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of wire in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping requires additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile semiconductors. If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the voltage of an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the battery is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. It's not a regulator. - To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design electronics that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes space to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge controllers so they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy with the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude more expensive. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > >> wrote: > > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. > > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. > > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the > SolArk will give up the smoke. > > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big > issue depending on what gear your using. > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches > > >> wrote: > > > > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would be > > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly > > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and > likely > > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The charge > > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or > > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly > > when the output voltage gets too high. > > So that's part of the picture. > > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The discussion > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As > far as > I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that > all of > the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly > the > same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers > getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or generator or > something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is > mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are > online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the case > of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is > providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is > acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, > there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage stability > will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 volt > battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a fraction of > second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause > failures. > > > Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input voltage > on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at > their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At 34 > volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a > 150V > input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it > would be > too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no way > that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and expensive > and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of > stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is with > transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage > spike > caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in > parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to > size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the system > adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. > > > There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see how > equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn off > the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on > battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, your > system survived a load dump. > > If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets > destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments > about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building > allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. > > I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar > controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by shutting > off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and > secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before things > catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and the > box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when things do > get wild. > > But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. > > I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to > cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from the > rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has been > destroyed in these islanding events. > > > Some thoughts, for what they are worth. > > -James Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 2 20:12:44 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2023 17:12:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> <9116e670-5f65-95c6-78be-8c7a5b38b075@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Kieran: You’ve got me confused with someone else. I do not pretend to know anything about Sol-arc. ( I do know if I was inventing electrical equipment I would not put “arc” in the name.) Wm On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 3:53 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > William said that SolArk can't handle having the breaker thrown while it's > charging the battery, so there are definitely exceptions. I've never used > -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 3 08:26:38 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 08:26:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> <9116e670-5f65-95c6-78be-8c7a5b38b075@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Just a quick comment about flipping breakers randomly. This also applies to AC-coupled systems. There should be zero risk of flipping breakers in random order. These devices are there to prevent overcurrent and disconnect circuits safely under load. If there is a specific order in which breakers must be turned on for the system to function properly, I consider that poor system design. And the issue is pervasive in the industry. If there is a safety hazard with flipping breakers in random order, these components should never pass testing IMO. On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 6:53 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello all, > > I have been an off-grid specialist for 12 years now, and I have never seen > or heard of a charge controller blowing itself up when it was disconnected > from the battery while it was in steady state. What I mean is that if it's > in bulk mode, or absorb mode, or float mode, and the battery disconnect is > suddenly opened, nothing has ever happened. And this actually has happened > a lot of times in my career. Most of my clients have a DIY attitude, so if > they think something is wrong, they'll start flipping breakers off randomly > until they have shut everything down in order to "reset" the system, and > then they turn it all back on, and if the problem persists, they feel like > they've tried something, so then they call. I've had helpers who just can't > remember which breaker to shut off first. Since I've never seen or heard of > an actual case where this happened, I don't worry about it to much. > > I have seen something similar blow up an Outback FM80 once. The charge > controller was 7 years old at the time. I was watching the whole time. The > system was shut down when we arrived, then the PV breaker was turned on, > then the battery breaker was turned on momentarily, then the battery > breaker was shut back off. The charge controller went into the startup > procedure, and it went to sweep the IV curve, and as it did, it was pumping > all that power into it's capacitors and it had nowhere to go. I watched the > voltage on the screen skyrocket and then it suddenly burned out with a > small pop. The charge controller was stuck in the startup, and it wasn't > able to stop producing current. If the battery breaker had been left on > while it stabilized, then it was shut off, it would have been fine. So if > you turn on the system, don't suddenly trip the disconnect until it has > been on for a minute. > > Also, inverters have capacitors that are much, much, much larger than the > capacitors in the charge controller, so when a main battery disconnect is > thrown and the charge controller is connected to an inverter > > Now, I completely avoid cheap charge controllers (Amazon charge > controllers, etc.). I don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. I have seen so > many DIYers reject my advice, install a cheap one, and have it burn up > within a couple of years or less. I wouldn't be surprised if suddenly > disconnecting the battery would be a likely cause of failure in these cases. > > Also, with any quality brand, if this somehow did happen, they'll still > honor it under their warranty, and this will be a rare occurrence. > > William said that SolArk can't handle having the breaker thrown while it's > charging the battery, so there are definitely exceptions. I've never used > SolArk, but with everything else I've heard about them, I'm really not too > surprised. I'm not faulting SolArk, and I'm not a SolArk hater, I just know > that their hands are somewhat bound by the real manufacturer who is in > China. SolArk only has limited control of their product. But as boB from > MidNite pointed out, it all equipment can and should be designed with this > in mind. Fuses will blow, breakers will get tripped, and any quality > manufacturer is going to take that into consideration. They can take the > low road and simply plan on replacing some under warranty, or the can > engineer the product to withstand it. > > One last note about codes, there are some codes that I hate and try to > avoid, but I also personally know 2 or 3 of the people on the code panels. > There are some people on the code panels who are not kind to our industry, > but there are a couple of people on those panels who really are our > advocates. If someone is on the code panel, they are actually limited in > how they can suggest new changes to the codes, they can only promote public > inputs that are submitted by people like us, so even if it feels like a > waist of time, it really is important that we all submit our ideas and > thoughts through the official pathways so that our advocates who really > want to promote our best interests have something they can leverage for us. > To those here who do help with the codes and help to advocate for us, THANK > YOU SO MUCH!!! > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and > consulting company) * > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of bob--- via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:06 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* bob at midnitesolar.com > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects > > > SPDs or (MOVs) on the PV input side of a charge controller are not wired > to snub excessive PV voltage. > > They are wired from PV+ to GND and the other from PV- to GND and only the > two in series, at double the > MOV clamp voltage would have any effect on clamping the PV+/PV- voltage. > SPDs are wired to keep the charge controller's insulation system to below > the Hi-Pot voltage the unit is > tested with. i.e. They are wired for common-mode and not differential. > That voltage is much higher > than maximum controller or inverter input voltage. > > What *IS* in place that might help limit PV voltage is the PV array > itself. Any PV voltage that would try go > go above the array's Voc would be clamped across the array. This would > be during the day or at night and > of course that Voc is determined mainly by PV cell temperature. Solar > panels are just a bunch of diodes > in series so will be forward-biased when Voc is exceeded by an inverter or > charge controller. > PV modules make great space heaters and can even melt snow, ya know. 😁 > > As for charge controllers blowing up when charging hard and then > disconnecting, I am very anal in > designing in safe guards to keep this from happening on the MidNite > Classic at least. That was done > several years ago now. > > But even then, electronics, especially power electronics, break once in a > while and it is sometimes very > hard to know why it happened. > > With our new HV MPPT controllers, their E-Panels also include > remote-trip PV breakers, triggered by the controller's > hardware in order to reduce battery side over-voltage in case something > goes wrong. > > So, I understand that we have a remote battery disconnect device basically > done but have held off due to > not knowing how important it would actually be. 300 amps from an external > switch closure or open. > Our older BD module basically went away with the bird house and bird next > shut down system. > > There are NEC requirements that are not enforced and some installers > don't worry about including, > but from this discussion, it sounds like this battery disconnect better be > finished sooner than later. > > Now we know. Thanks ! > > 🌜boB🌛 MidNite Solar > > > > > On 2/1/2023 2:49 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance > agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence over > codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the fact of the > matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, and very often > none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact sometimes a group > accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage that for something they > do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would appeal to y'all to submit a > proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due by September of this year. Better > yet would be to circulate language that this, or some other, group can work > on, agree on, write a solid technical justification for, and sign their > names to and submit - the more stakeholders that support a proposal the > more weight it has. > > It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may again > begin work to develop PV and storage industry stakeholder-consensus PIs to > submit; in the past this was a very successful endeavor. I'll post on this > list if and when that happens so that anyone that is interested can get > involved, but don't let that possibility keep you from submitting any PIs > on your own. > > Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and then > the batteries, would be worth designing. > > Brian Mehalic > > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to > > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? > > That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I > explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the > output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers inductor > to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds > somewhere to go. > > Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more than > Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of wire > in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. > > MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge > controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping requires > additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile semiconductors. > > > If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the voltage of > an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the battery > is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays > clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. > It's not a regulator. > > - > > To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design electronics > that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace > electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes space > to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge controllers so > they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC > requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy with > the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude > more expensive. > > > > > > > > Larry Crutcher > > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear > > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under > > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. > > > > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when > > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. > > > > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the > > SolArk will give up the smoke. > > > > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big > > issue depending on what gear your using. > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would > be > > > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly > > > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and > > likely > > > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The > charge > > > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or > > > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly > > > when the output voltage gets too high. > > > > So that's part of the picture. > > > > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The > discussion > > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As > > far as > > I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that > > all of > > the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly > > the > > same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers > > getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or generator > or > > something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is > > mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are > > online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the > case > > of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is > > providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is > > acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, > > there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage stability > > will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 volt > > battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a fraction > of > > second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause > > failures. > > > > > > Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input > voltage > > on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at > > their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At > 34 > > volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a > > 150V > > input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it > > would be > > too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no way > > that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and expensive > > and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of > > stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is with > > transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage > > spike > > caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in > > parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to > > size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the > system > > adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. > > > > > > There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see how > > equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn > off > > the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on > > battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, > your > > system survived a load dump. > > > > If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets > > destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments > > about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building > > allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. > > > > I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar > > controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by > shutting > > off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and > > secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before > things > > catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and > the > > box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when things > do > > get wild. > > > > But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. > > > > I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to > > cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from > the > > rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has > been > > destroyed in these islanding events. > > > > > > Some thoughts, for what they are worth. > > > > -James Jarvis > > APRS World, LLC > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Feb 3 09:29:43 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 06:29:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> <9116e670-5f65-95c6-78be-8c7a5b38b075@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: It’s been fun watching this (at times) rather lively discussion. It’s been making me think about the differences between NEC 480 Storage Batteries vs 706 Energy Storage Systems. If I can boil it down, it seems like the offgridders are frequently working with systems that are custom assembled including separate DC batteries. This is because the more mainstream energy storage systems on the market are primarily focused on the on-grid market with both grid-tied features and battery backup. But these ESS systems frequently don’t include all the features, especially generator control, to run in full off-grid mode 365 days a year. It seems increasingly difficult to meet the NEC with these legacy battery systems - tons of disconnects, bespoke design, assembly, programming, rapid shutdown, etc. I feel for those of you that need to put together really robust off grid systems and meet all of these codes. On there flip side, we’ve fully embraced energy storage systems for our urban market in the Bay Area. It’s been super challenging in many ways, but I can’t say that the NEC is particularly causing us the majority of pain. The fire code is causing a lot of pain, but that is a whole different story. We’ve recently started selling Tesla’s Powerwall+ systems which includes a solar inverter, battery, and battery inverter in one ESS. One nice part of this system is that we can meet NEC 706.15 ESS Disconnecting Means and 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems all with one switch. That’s pretty nice. Some AHJ’s may still be insisting on visible blade lockable disconnects, so we always in a process of educating them, but most are accepting this one switch to do it all. Good luck out there everyone - it seems like one thing is for certain - batteries and energy storage (in all their forms) are here to stay! August On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 5:27 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Just a quick comment about flipping breakers randomly. This also applies > to AC-coupled systems. There should be zero risk of flipping breakers in > random order. These devices are there to prevent overcurrent and disconnect > circuits safely under load. If there is a specific order in which breakers > must be turned on for the system to function properly, I consider that poor > system design. And the issue is pervasive in the industry. If there is a > safety hazard with flipping breakers in random order, these components > should never pass testing IMO. > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 6:53 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I have been an off-grid specialist for 12 years now, and I have never >> seen or heard of a charge controller blowing itself up when it was >> disconnected from the battery while it was in steady state. What I mean is >> that if it's in bulk mode, or absorb mode, or float mode, and the battery >> disconnect is suddenly opened, nothing has ever happened. And this actually >> has happened a lot of times in my career. Most of my clients have a DIY >> attitude, so if they think something is wrong, they'll start flipping >> breakers off randomly until they have shut everything down in order to >> "reset" the system, and then they turn it all back on, and if the problem >> persists, they feel like they've tried something, so then they call. I've >> had helpers who just can't remember which breaker to shut off first. Since >> I've never seen or heard of an actual case where this happened, I don't >> worry about it to much. >> >> I have seen something similar blow up an Outback FM80 once. The charge >> controller was 7 years old at the time. I was watching the whole time. The >> system was shut down when we arrived, then the PV breaker was turned on, >> then the battery breaker was turned on momentarily, then the battery >> breaker was shut back off. The charge controller went into the startup >> procedure, and it went to sweep the IV curve, and as it did, it was pumping >> all that power into it's capacitors and it had nowhere to go. I watched the >> voltage on the screen skyrocket and then it suddenly burned out with a >> small pop. The charge controller was stuck in the startup, and it wasn't >> able to stop producing current. If the battery breaker had been left on >> while it stabilized, then it was shut off, it would have been fine. So if >> you turn on the system, don't suddenly trip the disconnect until it has >> been on for a minute. >> >> Also, inverters have capacitors that are much, much, much larger than the >> capacitors in the charge controller, so when a main battery disconnect is >> thrown and the charge controller is connected to an inverter >> >> Now, I completely avoid cheap charge controllers (Amazon charge >> controllers, etc.). I don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. I have seen so >> many DIYers reject my advice, install a cheap one, and have it burn up >> within a couple of years or less. I wouldn't be surprised if suddenly >> disconnecting the battery would be a likely cause of failure in these cases. >> >> Also, with any quality brand, if this somehow did happen, they'll still >> honor it under their warranty, and this will be a rare occurrence. >> >> William said that SolArk can't handle having the breaker thrown while >> it's charging the battery, so there are definitely exceptions. I've never >> used SolArk, but with everything else I've heard about them, I'm really not >> too surprised. I'm not faulting SolArk, and I'm not a SolArk hater, I just >> know that their hands are somewhat bound by the real manufacturer who is >> in China. SolArk only has limited control of their product. But as boB >> from MidNite pointed out, it all equipment can and should be designed with >> this in mind. Fuses will blow, breakers will get tripped, and any quality >> manufacturer is going to take that into consideration. They can take the >> low road and simply plan on replacing some under warranty, or the can >> engineer the product to withstand it. >> >> One last note about codes, there are some codes that I hate and try to >> avoid, but I also personally know 2 or 3 of the people on the code panels. >> There are some people on the code panels who are not kind to our industry, >> but there are a couple of people on those panels who really are our >> advocates. If someone is on the code panel, they are actually limited in >> how they can suggest new changes to the codes, they can only promote public >> inputs that are submitted by people like us, so even if it feels like a >> waist of time, it really is important that we all submit our ideas and >> thoughts through the official pathways so that our advocates who really >> want to promote our best interests have something they can leverage for us. >> To those here who do help with the codes and help to advocate for us, THANK >> YOU SO MUCH!!! >> >> Thanks, >> Kienan >> >> >> *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and >> consulting company) * >> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >> *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of bob--- via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:06 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* bob at midnitesolar.com >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >> >> >> SPDs or (MOVs) on the PV input side of a charge controller are not wired >> to snub excessive PV voltage. >> >> They are wired from PV+ to GND and the other from PV- to GND and only the >> two in series, at double the >> MOV clamp voltage would have any effect on clamping the PV+/PV- voltage. >> SPDs are wired to keep the charge controller's insulation system to below >> the Hi-Pot voltage the unit is >> tested with. i.e. They are wired for common-mode and not differential. >> That voltage is much higher >> than maximum controller or inverter input voltage. >> >> What *IS* in place that might help limit PV voltage is the PV array >> itself. Any PV voltage that would try go >> go above the array's Voc would be clamped across the array. This would >> be during the day or at night and >> of course that Voc is determined mainly by PV cell temperature. Solar >> panels are just a bunch of diodes >> in series so will be forward-biased when Voc is exceeded by an inverter >> or charge controller. >> PV modules make great space heaters and can even melt snow, ya know. 😁 >> >> As for charge controllers blowing up when charging hard and then >> disconnecting, I am very anal in >> designing in safe guards to keep this from happening on the MidNite >> Classic at least. That was done >> several years ago now. >> >> But even then, electronics, especially power electronics, break once in >> a while and it is sometimes very >> hard to know why it happened. >> >> With our new HV MPPT controllers, their E-Panels also include >> remote-trip PV breakers, triggered by the controller's >> hardware in order to reduce battery side over-voltage in case >> something goes wrong. >> >> So, I understand that we have a remote battery disconnect device >> basically done but have held off due to >> not knowing how important it would actually be. 300 amps from an >> external switch closure or open. >> Our older BD module basically went away with the bird house and bird next >> shut down system. >> >> There are NEC requirements that are not enforced and some installers >> don't worry about including, >> but from this discussion, it sounds like this battery disconnect better >> be finished sooner than later. >> >> Now we know. Thanks ! >> >> 🌜boB🌛 MidNite Solar >> >> >> >> >> On 2/1/2023 2:49 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance >> agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence over >> codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the fact of the >> matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, and very often >> none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact sometimes a group >> accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage that for something they >> do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would appeal to y'all to submit a >> proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due by September of this year. Better >> yet would be to circulate language that this, or some other, group can work >> on, agree on, write a solid technical justification for, and sign their >> names to and submit - the more stakeholders that support a proposal the >> more weight it has. >> >> It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may again >> begin work to develop PV and storage industry stakeholder-consensus PIs to >> submit; in the past this was a very successful endeavor. I'll post on this >> list if and when that happens so that anyone that is interested can get >> involved, but don't let that possibility keep you from submitting any PIs >> on your own. >> >> Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and then >> the batteries, would be worth designing. >> >> Brian Mehalic >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to >> > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? >> >> That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I >> explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the >> output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers inductor >> to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds >> somewhere to go. >> >> Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more than >> Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of wire >> in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. >> >> MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge >> controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping requires >> additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile semiconductors. >> >> >> If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the voltage of >> an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the battery >> is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays >> clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. >> It's not a regulator. >> >> - >> >> To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design electronics >> that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace >> electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes space >> to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge controllers so >> they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC >> requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy with >> the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude >> more expensive. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Larry Crutcher >> > Starlight Solar Power Systems >> > >> > >> > >> > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches >> > > > > wrote: >> > >> > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear >> > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under >> > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. >> > >> > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when >> > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. >> > >> > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the >> > SolArk will give up the smoke. >> > >> > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big >> > issue depending on what gear your using. >> > >> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches >> > > > > wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> > > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you >> would be >> > > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly >> > > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and >> > likely >> > > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The >> charge >> > > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or >> > > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down >> instantly >> > > when the output voltage gets too high. >> > >> > So that's part of the picture. >> > >> > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The >> discussion >> > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As >> > far as >> > I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that >> > all of >> > the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly >> > the >> > same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers >> > getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or >> generator or >> > something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is >> > mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are >> > online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the >> case >> > of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is >> > providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is >> > acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, >> > there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage >> stability >> > will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 >> volt >> > battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a >> fraction of >> > second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause >> > failures. >> > >> > >> > Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input >> voltage >> > on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at >> > their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At >> 34 >> > volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a >> > 150V >> > input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it >> > would be >> > too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no >> way >> > that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and >> expensive >> > and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of >> > stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is >> with >> > transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage >> > spike >> > caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in >> > parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to >> > size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the >> system >> > adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. >> > >> > >> > There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see >> how >> > equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn >> off >> > the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on >> > battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, >> your >> > system survived a load dump. >> > >> > If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets >> > destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments >> > about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building >> > allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. >> > >> > I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar >> > controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by >> shutting >> > off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and >> > secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before >> things >> > catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and >> the >> > box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when >> things do >> > get wild. >> > >> > But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. >> > >> > I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to >> > cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from >> the >> > rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has >> been >> > destroyed in these islanding events. >> > >> > >> > Some thoughts, for what they are worth. >> > >> > -James Jarvis >> > APRS World, LLC >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- August Goers Luminalt o: 415.792.6666 m: 415.559.1525 august at luminalt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 3 09:39:28 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 09:39:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> <9116e670-5f65-95c6-78be-8c7a5b38b075@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: The visible load break disconnect thing really needs to die. We no longer have problems with AHJs, but both of our local utilities still require them for PV systems over 10kWac (after a short stint where they were not required). It's a bizarre requirement and actually creates a potential safety problem because the utility disconnect switch may not be the rapid shutdown switch in some situations and could be misconstrued as such. In many cases, the utility disconnect switch doesn't shut down the PV in an ESS system, and a separate RSD switch is required, but not necessarily colocated. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:29 AM August Goers wrote: > It’s been fun watching this (at times) rather lively discussion. It’s been > making me think about the differences between NEC 480 Storage Batteries vs > 706 Energy Storage Systems. > > If I can boil it down, it seems like the offgridders are frequently > working with systems that are custom assembled including separate DC > batteries. This is because the more mainstream energy storage systems on > the market are primarily focused on the on-grid market with both grid-tied > features and battery backup. But these ESS systems frequently don’t include > all the features, especially generator control, to run in full off-grid > mode 365 days a year. > > It seems increasingly difficult to meet the NEC with these legacy battery > systems - tons of disconnects, bespoke design, assembly, programming, rapid > shutdown, etc. I feel for those of you that need to put together really > robust off grid systems and meet all of these codes. > > On there flip side, we’ve fully embraced energy storage systems for our > urban market in the Bay Area. It’s been super challenging in many ways, but > I can’t say that the NEC is particularly causing us the majority of pain. > The fire code is causing a lot of pain, but that is a whole different > story. We’ve recently started selling Tesla’s Powerwall+ systems which > includes a solar inverter, battery, and battery inverter in one ESS. One > nice part of this system is that we can meet NEC 706.15 ESS Disconnecting > Means and 690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems all with one switch. That’s > pretty nice. Some AHJ’s may still be insisting on visible blade lockable > disconnects, so we always in a process of educating them, but most are > accepting this one switch to do it all. > > Good luck out there everyone - it seems like one thing is for certain - > batteries and energy storage (in all their forms) are here to stay! > > August > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 5:27 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Just a quick comment about flipping breakers randomly. This also applies >> to AC-coupled systems. There should be zero risk of flipping breakers in >> random order. These devices are there to prevent overcurrent and disconnect >> circuits safely under load. If there is a specific order in which breakers >> must be turned on for the system to function properly, I consider that poor >> system design. And the issue is pervasive in the industry. If there is a >> safety hazard with flipping breakers in random order, these components >> should never pass testing IMO. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 6:53 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I have been an off-grid specialist for 12 years now, and I have never >>> seen or heard of a charge controller blowing itself up when it was >>> disconnected from the battery while it was in steady state. What I mean is >>> that if it's in bulk mode, or absorb mode, or float mode, and the battery >>> disconnect is suddenly opened, nothing has ever happened. And this actually >>> has happened a lot of times in my career. Most of my clients have a DIY >>> attitude, so if they think something is wrong, they'll start flipping >>> breakers off randomly until they have shut everything down in order to >>> "reset" the system, and then they turn it all back on, and if the problem >>> persists, they feel like they've tried something, so then they call. I've >>> had helpers who just can't remember which breaker to shut off first. Since >>> I've never seen or heard of an actual case where this happened, I don't >>> worry about it to much. >>> >>> I have seen something similar blow up an Outback FM80 once. The charge >>> controller was 7 years old at the time. I was watching the whole time. The >>> system was shut down when we arrived, then the PV breaker was turned on, >>> then the battery breaker was turned on momentarily, then the battery >>> breaker was shut back off. The charge controller went into the startup >>> procedure, and it went to sweep the IV curve, and as it did, it was pumping >>> all that power into it's capacitors and it had nowhere to go. I watched the >>> voltage on the screen skyrocket and then it suddenly burned out with a >>> small pop. The charge controller was stuck in the startup, and it wasn't >>> able to stop producing current. If the battery breaker had been left on >>> while it stabilized, then it was shut off, it would have been fine. So if >>> you turn on the system, don't suddenly trip the disconnect until it has >>> been on for a minute. >>> >>> Also, inverters have capacitors that are much, much, much larger than >>> the capacitors in the charge controller, so when a main battery disconnect >>> is thrown and the charge controller is connected to an inverter >>> >>> Now, I completely avoid cheap charge controllers (Amazon charge >>> controllers, etc.). I don't touch them with a 10 foot pole. I have seen so >>> many DIYers reject my advice, install a cheap one, and have it burn up >>> within a couple of years or less. I wouldn't be surprised if suddenly >>> disconnecting the battery would be a likely cause of failure in these cases. >>> >>> Also, with any quality brand, if this somehow did happen, they'll still >>> honor it under their warranty, and this will be a rare occurrence. >>> >>> William said that SolArk can't handle having the breaker thrown while >>> it's charging the battery, so there are definitely exceptions. I've never >>> used SolArk, but with everything else I've heard about them, I'm really not >>> too surprised. I'm not faulting SolArk, and I'm not a SolArk hater, I just >>> know that their hands are somewhat bound by the real manufacturer who >>> is in China. SolArk only has limited control of their product. But as >>> boB from MidNite pointed out, it all equipment can and should be designed >>> with this in mind. Fuses will blow, breakers will get tripped, and any >>> quality manufacturer is going to take that into consideration. They can >>> take the low road and simply plan on replacing some under warranty, or the >>> can engineer the product to withstand it. >>> >>> One last note about codes, there are some codes that I hate and try to >>> avoid, but I also personally know 2 or 3 of the people on the code panels. >>> There are some people on the code panels who are not kind to our industry, >>> but there are a couple of people on those panels who really are our >>> advocates. If someone is on the code panel, they are actually limited in >>> how they can suggest new changes to the codes, they can only promote public >>> inputs that are submitted by people like us, so even if it feels like a >>> waist of time, it really is important that we all submit our ideas and >>> thoughts through the official pathways so that our advocates who really >>> want to promote our best interests have something they can leverage for us. >>> To those here who do help with the codes and help to advocate for us, THANK >>> YOU SO MUCH!!! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Kienan >>> >>> >>> *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and >>> consulting company) * >>> *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* >>> *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* RE-wrenches on >>> behalf of bob--- via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:06 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* bob at midnitesolar.com >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects >>> >>> >>> SPDs or (MOVs) on the PV input side of a charge controller are not >>> wired to snub excessive PV voltage. >>> >>> They are wired from PV+ to GND and the other from PV- to GND and only >>> the two in series, at double the >>> MOV clamp voltage would have any effect on clamping the PV+/PV- >>> voltage. >>> SPDs are wired to keep the charge controller's insulation system to >>> below the Hi-Pot voltage the unit is >>> tested with. i.e. They are wired for common-mode and not >>> differential. That voltage is much higher >>> than maximum controller or inverter input voltage. >>> >>> What *IS* in place that might help limit PV voltage is the PV array >>> itself. Any PV voltage that would try go >>> go above the array's Voc would be clamped across the array. This >>> would be during the day or at night and >>> of course that Voc is determined mainly by PV cell temperature. Solar >>> panels are just a bunch of diodes >>> in series so will be forward-biased when Voc is exceeded by an inverter >>> or charge controller. >>> PV modules make great space heaters and can even melt snow, ya know. 😁 >>> >>> As for charge controllers blowing up when charging hard and then >>> disconnecting, I am very anal in >>> designing in safe guards to keep this from happening on the MidNite >>> Classic at least. That was done >>> several years ago now. >>> >>> But even then, electronics, especially power electronics, break once in >>> a while and it is sometimes very >>> hard to know why it happened. >>> >>> With our new HV MPPT controllers, their E-Panels also include >>> remote-trip PV breakers, triggered by the controller's >>> hardware in order to reduce battery side over-voltage in case >>> something goes wrong. >>> >>> So, I understand that we have a remote battery disconnect device >>> basically done but have held off due to >>> not knowing how important it would actually be. 300 amps from an >>> external switch closure or open. >>> Our older BD module basically went away with the bird house and bird >>> next shut down system. >>> >>> There are NEC requirements that are not enforced and some installers >>> don't worry about including, >>> but from this discussion, it sounds like this battery disconnect better >>> be finished sooner than later. >>> >>> Now we know. Thanks ! >>> >>> 🌜boB🌛 MidNite Solar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/1/2023 2:49 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance >>> agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence over >>> codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the fact of the >>> matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, and very often >>> none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact sometimes a group >>> accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage that for something they >>> do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would appeal to y'all to submit a >>> proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due by September of this year. Better >>> yet would be to circulate language that this, or some other, group can work >>> on, agree on, write a solid technical justification for, and sign their >>> names to and submit - the more stakeholders that support a proposal the >>> more weight it has. >>> >>> It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may again >>> begin work to develop PV and storage industry stakeholder-consensus PIs to >>> submit; in the past this was a very successful endeavor. I'll post on this >>> list if and when that happens so that anyone that is interested can get >>> involved, but don't let that possibility keep you from submitting any PIs >>> on your own. >>> >>> Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and then >>> the batteries, would be worth designing. >>> >>> Brian Mehalic >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to >>> > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? >>> >>> That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I >>> explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the >>> output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers inductor >>> to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds >>> somewhere to go. >>> >>> Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more than >>> Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of wire >>> in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. >>> >>> MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge >>> controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping requires >>> additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile semiconductors. >>> >>> >>> If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the voltage of >>> an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the battery >>> is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays >>> clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. >>> It's not a regulator. >>> >>> - >>> >>> To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design electronics >>> that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace >>> electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes space >>> to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge controllers so >>> they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC >>> requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy with >>> the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude >>> more expensive. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > Larry Crutcher >>> > Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches >>> > >> > > wrote: >>> > >>> > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear >>> > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is >>> under >>> > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. >>> > >>> > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when >>> > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. >>> > >>> > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the >>> > SolArk will give up the smoke. >>> > >>> > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big >>> > issue depending on what gear your using. >>> > >>> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches >>> > >> > > wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> > > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you >>> would be >>> > > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly >>> > > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and >>> > likely >>> > > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?). The >>> charge >>> > > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, >>> or >>> > > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down >>> instantly >>> > > when the output voltage gets too high. >>> > >>> > So that's part of the picture. >>> > >>> > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The >>> discussion >>> > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As >>> > far as >>> > I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that >>> > all of >>> > the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at >>> exactly >>> > the >>> > same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers >>> > getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or >>> generator or >>> > something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is >>> > mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads >>> are >>> > online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the >>> case >>> > of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is >>> > providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is >>> > acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the >>> battery, >>> > there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage >>> stability >>> > will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 >>> volt >>> > battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a >>> fraction of >>> > second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause >>> > failures. >>> > >>> > >>> > Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input >>> voltage >>> > on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at >>> > their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. >>> At 34 >>> > volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a >>> > 150V >>> > input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it >>> > would be >>> > too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no >>> way >>> > that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and >>> expensive >>> > and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of >>> > stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is >>> with >>> > transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage >>> > spike >>> > caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in >>> > parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting >>> to >>> > size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the >>> system >>> > adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. >>> > >>> > >>> > There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see >>> how >>> > equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and >>> turn off >>> > the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on >>> > battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, >>> your >>> > system survived a load dump. >>> > >>> > If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets >>> > destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security >>> comments >>> > about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building >>> > allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. >>> > >>> > I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar >>> > controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by >>> shutting >>> > off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and >>> > secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before >>> things >>> > catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and >>> the >>> > box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when >>> things do >>> > get wild. >>> > >>> > But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. >>> > >>> > I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems >>> to >>> > cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery >>> from the >>> > rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has >>> been >>> > destroyed in these islanding events. >>> > >>> > >>> > Some thoughts, for what they are worth. >>> > >>> > -James Jarvis >>> > APRS World, LLC >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > August Goers > Luminalt > o: 415.792.6666 > m: 415.559.1525 > august at luminalt.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 10:26:00 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2023 08:26:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> <9116e670-5f65-95c6-78be-8c7a5b38b075@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: As 480.7(B) says single and double homes, that going with the mike holt literal interpretation to me says that even if you have a remote power shed it would still require the remote disconnect. As that section doesn’t say that the power system is in the house or not. (A) doesn’t apply as the batteries are sub 60v (C) doesn’t apply because its a 48v battery However, as we’ve seen in the past with NEC requirements that there was no UL part for: GFCI for charge controllers, or RS as just 2 examples, that gives an out because there is no part to use. I’d say its a perfect new part for midnite to make. William’s point about making one, sure can do that but then the AHJ will ask for the UL listing. I still have the question as to what is the design of the battery conductor disconnect? What is it trying to protect? Sure its the battery conductors, but why? If the goal is to make sure its safe for the fire personal to cut through walls, ok then they could be cutting into the battery just as easily as the conductors. If its to shut off power to the house, then it fails on that one. Power goes out and the back up generator starts for just one example. Which puts us back to the main AC disconnect which is going to shut off all the AC power in the house. Rapid shut down already has requirements for house mounted systems which takes care of the +60v DC conductors although is not required for separate power sheds. Thanks jay From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sat Feb 4 15:57:50 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 15:57:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects In-Reply-To: References: <6EDF77A2-6427-46C3-93B1-1E22F2954860@solarenergy.org> <263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com> <81ee49b0-4f5e-0ed1-1d7e-47e205d42af5@aprsworld.com> <0085F2A1-13CC-4477-8CF0-1A3114DA1508@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks for doing this.  Chris On 2/1/2023 4:49 PM, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: > Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance > agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence > over codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the > fact of the matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, > and very often none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact > sometimes a group accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage > that for something they do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would > appeal to y'all to submit a proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due > by September of this year. Better yet would be to circulate language > that this, or some other, group can work on, agree on, write a solid > technical justification for, and sign their names to and submit - the > more stakeholders that support a proposal the more weight it has. > > It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may > again begin work to develop PV and storage industry > stakeholder-consensus PIs to submit; in the past this was a very > successful endeavor. I'll post on this list if and when that happens > so that anyone that is interested can get involved, but don't let that > possibility keep you from submitting any PIs on your own. > > Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and > then the batteries, would be worth designing. > > Brian Mehalic > > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > > On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input > side to > > clamp the open circuit voltage surge? > > That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I > explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the > output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers > inductor > to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds > somewhere to go. > > Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more > than > Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of > wire > in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct. > > MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge > controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping > requires > additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile > semiconductors. > > > If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the > voltage of > an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the > battery > is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays > clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up. > It's not a regulator. > > - > > To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design > electronics > that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace > electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes > space > to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge > controllers so > they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC > requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy > with > the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude > more expensive. > > > > > > > > Larry Crutcher > > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear > > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller > is under > > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly. > > > > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when > > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue. > > > > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and > the > > SolArk will give up the smoke. > > > > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is > a big > > issue depending on what gear your using. > > > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via > RE-wrenches > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >     On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >      > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what > you would be > >      > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump > (suddenly > >      > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for > us, and > >     likely > >      > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list > (boB?).  The charge > >      > controller can either handle full input voltage on the > output, or > >      > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down > instantly > >      > when the output voltage gets too high. > > > >     So that's part of the picture. > > > >     The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The > discussion > >     and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be > disconnected. As > >     far as > >     I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases > that > >     all of > >     the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at > exactly > >     the > >     same time .... or ever. This leaves things like charge > controllers > >     getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or > generator or > >     something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is > >     mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the > loads are > >     online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply > in the case > >     of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and > nothing is > >     providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the > battery is > >     acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the > battery, > >     there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage > stability > >     will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your > normally 48 volt > >     battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a > fraction of > >     second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause > >     failures. > > > > > >     Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full > input voltage > >     on the output is probably unique to their niche product. > Looking at > >     their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 > volts. At 34 > >     volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his > output. For a > >     150V > >     input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it > >     would be > >     too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's > just no way > >     that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and > expensive > >     and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level > sort of > >     stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load > dump is with > >     transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the > voltage > >     spike > >     caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in > >     parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be > interesting to > >     size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in > the system > >     adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed. > > > > > >     There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform > to see how > >     equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day > and turn off > >     the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn > back on > >     battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then > great, your > >     system survived a load dump. > > > >     If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your > system gets > >     destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security > comments > >     about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your > building > >     allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you. > > > >     I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar > >     controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps > by shutting > >     off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and > >     secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips > before things > >     catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit > board and the > >     box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading > when things do > >     get wild. > > > >     But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump. > > > >     I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery > systems to > >     cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the > battery from the > >     rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of > equipment has been > >     destroyed in these islanding events. > > > > > >     Some thoughts, for what they are worth. > > > >     -James Jarvis > >     APRS World, LLC > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Feb 5 15:48:04 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2023 15:48:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cable trays and battery cable Message-ID: All, I'm just starting a 500kwh LFP battery system that requires a max. distance of 40' from each battery cabinet to the DC combiner. I am considering using a cable tray instead of an enclosed wireway for this. The battery cable used is ALL-Flex CT multi-rated MTW / THHW, and will be greater than or equal to 1/0, per NEC 392. I haven't read up a lot yet on it but I assume cable tray allows single conductor ampacity to be sized as in free air per 310.17, with perhaps some caveats. Have any of you used cable tray in a similar fashion? Pointers? Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 16:56:42 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2023 14:56:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cable trays and battery cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you looked at https://www.snaketray.com/product-catalog/solar-snake-tray/ jay > On Feb 5, 2023, at 1:48 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > > All, > I'm just starting a 500kwh LFP battery system that requires a max. distance of 40' from each battery cabinet to the DC combiner. > > I am considering using a cable tray instead of an enclosed wireway for this. The battery cable used is ALL-Flex CT multi-rated MTW / THHW, and will be greater than or equal to 1/0, per NEC 392. > I haven't read up a lot yet on it but I assume cable tray allows single conductor ampacity to be sized as in free air per 310.17, with perhaps some caveats. > > Have any of you used cable tray in a similar fashion? Pointers? Thanks. > > -- > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Mon Feb 6 00:23:31 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2023 22:23:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] cable trays and battery cable Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ Kirk Herander asked about cable trays & basing the wire calculations as if the wires are in "free air". The 2023 Article 100 definition of Free Air is unchanged from the 2020 NEC: 2023: "Open or ventilated environment that allows for heat dissipation and air flow around an installed conductor." However at the 2020 sessions for CMP6 Code Making Panel 6, the original draft language was: 2020 first draft: "Open or ventilated environment that allows for air flow around an installed conductor with no other conductors closer than one cable diameter and no insulation or building materials in contact with the conductor insulation for more than 75 mm (3 in.) for every 3 m (10 ft) of conductor." This is not the letter of the law since it was changed in the second draft but it does show the thinking process. I specified some cable tray recently which was "solid" on the sides & bottom (unlike some other types that are perforated or ladder style). This tray was for AC wires & the electricians did support the wires so there's ~ one cable diameter of air space around each insulated conductor. There's no forced air ventilation on this project; only natural convection via the open top of the trays. The wires were sized for "free air" conditions & there was no pushback from the AHJ. As with so many cases, this goes to the individual AHJ's interpretation, but the air-gaps seem more appropriate (compared to laying the wires in a heap) if one wants the installation to be interpreted as "free air", especially when the tray sides & bottom surface are solid as in this example. I hope this will be helpful; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Feb 8 18:04:11 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 16:04:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Heater Message-ID: Hi All; I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter.  The batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below freezing.  What are the best options for setting up a heating system for the E Vault? Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery that is wired to only run off the generator.  Run the generator until the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery would begin accepting a charge. 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the battery was below 50F.   I don't quite know how to set this up with the Solark's load controls. I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and sheet rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar in the Colorado mountain cold..... From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 18:42:45 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2023 15:42:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Heater In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power but does the trick Fun times On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All; > > I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. The > batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is > not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below > freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system for > the E Vault? > > Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: > 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery > that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until > the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery > would begin accepting a charge. > > 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired > to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so > that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the battery > was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the Solark's > load controls. > > I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since > the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. > > The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and sheet > rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > in the Colorado mountain cold..... > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 10:31:16 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 08:31:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Woodland Park Wrench Message-ID: Hello, Are there any wrenches out there that service Woodland Park CO? Please contact me off list. Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Feb 9 13:01:37 2023 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 13:01:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Heater In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ray, I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just introduced a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't believe they have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to make it work. Christopher On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the > battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power > but does the trick > Fun times > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All; >> >> I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. The >> batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is >> not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below >> freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system for >> the E Vault? >> >> Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: >> 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery >> that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until >> the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery >> would begin accepting a charge. >> >> 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired >> to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so >> that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the battery >> was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the Solark's >> load controls. >> >> I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since >> the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. >> >> The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and sheet >> rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> in the Colorado mountain cold..... >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 9 17:34:44 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 15:34:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> Hi Chris; That's not for the eVault.  Other Wrenches have mentioned using a pet heating pad with a 120 vac plug in thermostat.  I'm going to try that, I'll report back to the list what I find. Secondly, I am having issues figuring out how to do the closed loop coms.  The Fortress instructions contradict themselves on how to even make up the proper CANbus cable, as apparently MODbus is not stable anymore, after the latest Solark firmware upgrades. I'm about to just apply the KISSbus,  which is to blow off the closed loop com all together, and /*K*eep *I*t *S*imple *S#@$%*/!, otherwise known as No Coms at all. I've screwed with Com stuff since the 90s, but usually been disappointed, to downright horrified with the final results. Somebody explain to me like a 2 year old again, why closed loop is so much better?  Think off grid, where reliability is 10 times more important than squeezing an extra 5% capacity out of the battery.... Notes in the online instructions such as "/Failure to properly upgrade the firmware may cause the battery to stop working!", / are not making we want to push ahead with closed loop either. Ray On 2/9/2023 11:01 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Ray, > > I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just > introduced a heater product for their enclosure products. While I > don't believe they have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be > able to make it work. > > Christopher > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under > the battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery.  It's slow > and low power but does the trick > Fun times > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All; > > I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark > inverter.  The > batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the > customer is > not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below > freezing.  What are the best options for setting up a heating > system for > the E Vault? > > Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: > 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the > battery > that is wired to only run off the generator.  Run the > generator until > the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the > battery > would begin accepting a charge. > > 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would > be wired > to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV > system, so > that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and > the battery > was below 50F.   I don't quite know how to set this up with > the Solark's > load controls. > > I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much > sense, since > the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. > > The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, > and sheet > rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > in the Colorado mountain cold..... > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com/ > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Feb 9 18:58:03 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 23:58:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Heater In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've wanted to find a thermostat that could handle DC Voltage for a while now, but I haven't done the research. What I've wanted to do is to tap right off the PV input, through a thermostat, into a simple resistive heater. That way, it won't drain the battery to warm the array. If the resistive heater is designed for 120V AC, then it should work pretty well with 3 60 cell modules in series. I'd want to actually do the math with the Voc and Vmp and temperatures before suggesting an actual design, but shooting from the hip, If you have 5 or 6 modules in series, then just wire 2 heating pads in series. If you have 10 to 12 modules in series, just put 3 heating pads in series. You get the gist. I think the only difficult part to really figure out is the thermostat. I don't know if anyone makes a thermostat that would work with the DC voltage. Otherwise, you'd need a DC relay or contactor, but then you'd need a source for the control voltage... Anyways, just some food for thought. If anyone has ideas about a high voltage DC thermostat, I'd love to hear about it. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 11:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Chris Schaefer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Battery Heater Ray, I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just introduced a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't believe they have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to make it work. Christopher On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power but does the trick Fun times On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All; I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. The batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system for the E Vault? Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery would begin accepting a charge. 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the battery was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the Solark's load controls. I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and sheet rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar in the Colorado mountain cold..... _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 20:08:56 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 20:08:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) In-Reply-To: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> References: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, Establishing CAN is straightforward. Most important steps: -Pins 1,2,3 on eVault go to pins 4,5,6 in that order - Update the eVault with CAN firmware -Use protocol 6 on the battery and protocol 00 on the Sol Ark Closed loop is an important feature that I personally wouldn’t want to pass up. I have found CAN to be much more solid than RS485 with regards to the eVault Max. I’ve conducted plenty of firmware upgrades and have yet to run into trouble. Key is to turn off breaker so battery is not charging or discharging. I’d reconsider blowing off this feature. Kindly, Chris On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 5:35 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Chris; > > That's not for the eVault. Other Wrenches have mentioned using a pet > heating pad with a 120 vac plug in thermostat. I'm going to try that, I'll > report back to the list what I find. > > Secondly, I am having issues figuring out how to do the closed loop coms. > The Fortress instructions contradict themselves on how to even make up the > proper CANbus cable, as apparently MODbus is not stable anymore, after the > latest Solark firmware upgrades. I'm about to just apply the KISSbus, > which is to blow off the closed loop com all together, and *Keep It > Simple S#@$%*!, otherwise known as No Coms at all. > > I've screwed with Com stuff since the 90s, but usually been disappointed, > to downright horrified with the final results. Somebody explain to me like > a 2 year old again, why closed loop is so much better? Think off grid, > where reliability is 10 times more important than squeezing an extra 5% > capacity out of the battery.... Notes in the online instructions such as "*Failure > to properly upgrade the firmware may cause the battery to stop working!", * > are not making we want to push ahead with closed loop either. > > Ray > On 2/9/2023 11:01 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Ray, > > I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just introduced > a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't believe they > have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to make it work. > > Christopher > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the >> battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power >> but does the trick >> Fun times >> >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All; >>> >>> I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. The >>> batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is >>> not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below >>> freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system for >>> the E Vault? >>> >>> Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: >>> 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery >>> that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until >>> the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery >>> would begin accepting a charge. >>> >>> 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired >>> to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so >>> that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the battery >>> was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the Solark's >>> load controls. >>> >>> I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since >>> the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. >>> >>> The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and sheet >>> rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> in the Colorado mountain cold..... >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > > **www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 20:56:35 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 20:56:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) In-Reply-To: References: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> Message-ID: For systems where the batteries are getting a relatively full charge every week or and cycling down below 30% at least every now and then, closed loop is certainly the safest way to go since the battery BMS is determining the SOC, not the inverter's algorithm. I've been told by a tech at Fortress that has done installation and service that unless the batteries cycle at least occasionally, the battery's BMS can really lose accuracy. So even in closed loop, you can have significant discrepancies. I ran into this a couple of weeks ago on a system that had been cycling between 20 and 45% for several weeks. Even though the BMS was reporting around 40%, the batteries shut down on low voltage. In cases where the batteries aren't getting a relatively full cycle at least every week (or 2),I was told to switch over to switch the Sol Ark over to operate on voltage instead. And to set up the charge algorithm to bring the batteries up higher every now and then. So far, things have worked better. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Thu, Feb 9, 2023, 8:10 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ray, > > Establishing CAN is straightforward. Most important steps: > > -Pins 1,2,3 on eVault go to pins 4,5,6 in that order > - Update the eVault with CAN firmware > -Use protocol 6 on the battery and protocol 00 on the Sol Ark > > Closed loop is an important feature that I personally wouldn’t want to > pass up. I have found CAN to be much more solid than RS485 with regards to > the eVault Max. I’ve conducted plenty of firmware upgrades and have yet to > run into trouble. Key is to turn off breaker so battery is not charging or > discharging. > > I’d reconsider blowing off this feature. > > Kindly, > > Chris > > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 5:35 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Chris; >> >> That's not for the eVault. Other Wrenches have mentioned using a pet >> heating pad with a 120 vac plug in thermostat. I'm going to try that, I'll >> report back to the list what I find. >> >> Secondly, I am having issues figuring out how to do the closed loop >> coms. The Fortress instructions contradict themselves on how to even make >> up the proper CANbus cable, as apparently MODbus is not stable anymore, >> after the latest Solark firmware upgrades. I'm about to just apply the >> KISSbus, which is to blow off the closed loop com all together, and *Keep >> It Simple S#@$%*!, otherwise known as No Coms at all. >> >> I've screwed with Com stuff since the 90s, but usually been disappointed, >> to downright horrified with the final results. Somebody explain to me like >> a 2 year old again, why closed loop is so much better? Think off grid, >> where reliability is 10 times more important than squeezing an extra 5% >> capacity out of the battery.... Notes in the online instructions such as "*Failure >> to properly upgrade the firmware may cause the battery to stop working!", * >> are not making we want to push ahead with closed loop either. >> >> Ray >> On 2/9/2023 11:01 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just introduced >> a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't believe they >> have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to make it work. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the >>> battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power >>> but does the trick >>> Fun times >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All; >>>> >>>> I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. >>>> The >>>> batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is >>>> not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below >>>> freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system >>>> for >>>> the E Vault? >>>> >>>> Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: >>>> 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery >>>> that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until >>>> the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery >>>> would begin accepting a charge. >>>> >>>> 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired >>>> to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so >>>> that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the >>>> battery >>>> was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the >>>> Solark's >>>> load controls. >>>> >>>> I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since >>>> the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. >>>> >>>> The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and >>>> sheet >>>> rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> in the Colorado mountain cold..... >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> >> **www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >> chris at solarandwindfx.com * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 21:46:02 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 21:46:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) In-Reply-To: References: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> Message-ID: It all comes back to voltage.....Learned that with the TriMetric a long time ago. I have a dozen eVaults out there, mostly singles but one set up with 3, all working just fine using voltage control. John Blittersdorf On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 8:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > For systems where the batteries are getting a relatively full charge every > week or and cycling down below 30% at least every now and then, closed loop > is certainly the safest way to go since the battery BMS is determining the > SOC, not the inverter's algorithm. > > I've been told by a tech at Fortress that has done installation and > service that unless the batteries cycle at least occasionally, the > battery's BMS can really lose accuracy. So even in closed loop, you can > have significant discrepancies. > > I ran into this a couple of weeks ago on a system that had been cycling > between 20 and 45% for several weeks. Even though the BMS was reporting > around 40%, the batteries shut down on low voltage. In cases where the > batteries aren't getting a relatively full cycle at least every week (or > 2),I was told to switch over to switch the Sol Ark over to operate on > voltage instead. And to set up the charge algorithm to bring the batteries > up higher every now and then. > > So far, things have worked better. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2023, 8:10 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Ray, >> >> Establishing CAN is straightforward. Most important steps: >> >> -Pins 1,2,3 on eVault go to pins 4,5,6 in that order >> - Update the eVault with CAN firmware >> -Use protocol 6 on the battery and protocol 00 on the Sol Ark >> >> Closed loop is an important feature that I personally wouldn’t want to >> pass up. I have found CAN to be much more solid than RS485 with regards to >> the eVault Max. I’ve conducted plenty of firmware upgrades and have yet to >> run into trouble. Key is to turn off breaker so battery is not charging or >> discharging. >> >> I’d reconsider blowing off this feature. >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 5:35 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris; >>> >>> That's not for the eVault. Other Wrenches have mentioned using a pet >>> heating pad with a 120 vac plug in thermostat. I'm going to try that, I'll >>> report back to the list what I find. >>> >>> Secondly, I am having issues figuring out how to do the closed loop >>> coms. The Fortress instructions contradict themselves on how to even make >>> up the proper CANbus cable, as apparently MODbus is not stable anymore, >>> after the latest Solark firmware upgrades. I'm about to just apply the >>> KISSbus, which is to blow off the closed loop com all together, and *Keep >>> It Simple S#@$%*!, otherwise known as No Coms at all. >>> >>> I've screwed with Com stuff since the 90s, but usually been >>> disappointed, to downright horrified with the final results. Somebody >>> explain to me like a 2 year old again, why closed loop is so much better? >>> Think off grid, where reliability is 10 times more important than squeezing >>> an extra 5% capacity out of the battery.... Notes in the online >>> instructions such as "*Failure to properly upgrade the firmware may >>> cause the battery to stop working!", * are not making we want to push >>> ahead with closed loop either. >>> >>> Ray >>> On 2/9/2023 11:01 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Ray, >>> >>> I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just >>> introduced a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't >>> believe they have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to >>> make it work. >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the >>>> battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power >>>> but does the trick >>>> Fun times >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All; >>>>> >>>>> I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. >>>>> The >>>>> batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is >>>>> not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below >>>>> freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system >>>>> for >>>>> the E Vault? >>>>> >>>>> Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: >>>>> 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery >>>>> that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until >>>>> the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery >>>>> would begin accepting a charge. >>>>> >>>>> 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired >>>>> to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so >>>>> that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the >>>>> battery >>>>> was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the >>>>> Solark's >>>>> load controls. >>>>> >>>>> I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since >>>>> the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. >>>>> >>>>> The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and >>>>> sheet >>>>> rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Ray Walters >>>>> Remote Solar >>>>> in the Colorado mountain cold..... >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> >>> **www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >>> chris at solarandwindfx.com * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Feb 10 06:40:34 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 06:40:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) In-Reply-To: References: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> Message-ID: John, Unfortunately with lithium, voltage isn’t a great indicator of precise SOC%. There could be a 30% swing in accuracy with a 52.7VDC reading. When we get into smart load management and EV2H, voltage isn’t going to cut it. The future of energy storage requires accurate BMS readings and if current manufacturers are falling short of this, we need to ask more from them. I’ve also noticed that in closed loop, the generator charge cycle is tremendously more concise, averaging 1.5hrs less per run than voltage based settings. On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 9:46 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > It all comes back to voltage.....Learned that with the TriMetric a long > time ago. I have a dozen eVaults out there, mostly singles but one set up > with 3, all working just fine using voltage control. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 8:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> For systems where the batteries are getting a relatively full charge >> every week or and cycling down below 30% at least every now and then, >> closed loop is certainly the safest way to go since the battery BMS is >> determining the SOC, not the inverter's algorithm. >> >> I've been told by a tech at Fortress that has done installation and >> service that unless the batteries cycle at least occasionally, the >> battery's BMS can really lose accuracy. So even in closed loop, you can >> have significant discrepancies. >> >> I ran into this a couple of weeks ago on a system that had been cycling >> between 20 and 45% for several weeks. Even though the BMS was reporting >> around 40%, the batteries shut down on low voltage. In cases where the >> batteries aren't getting a relatively full cycle at least every week (or >> 2),I was told to switch over to switch the Sol Ark over to operate on >> voltage instead. And to set up the charge algorithm to bring the batteries >> up higher every now and then. >> >> So far, things have worked better. >> >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 9, 2023, 8:10 PM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Ray, >>> >>> Establishing CAN is straightforward. Most important steps: >>> >>> -Pins 1,2,3 on eVault go to pins 4,5,6 in that order >>> - Update the eVault with CAN firmware >>> -Use protocol 6 on the battery and protocol 00 on the Sol Ark >>> >>> Closed loop is an important feature that I personally wouldn’t want to >>> pass up. I have found CAN to be much more solid than RS485 with regards to >>> the eVault Max. I’ve conducted plenty of firmware upgrades and have yet to >>> run into trouble. Key is to turn off breaker so battery is not charging or >>> discharging. >>> >>> I’d reconsider blowing off this feature. >>> >>> Kindly, >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 5:35 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chris; >>>> >>>> That's not for the eVault. Other Wrenches have mentioned using a pet >>>> heating pad with a 120 vac plug in thermostat. I'm going to try that, I'll >>>> report back to the list what I find. >>>> >>>> Secondly, I am having issues figuring out how to do the closed loop >>>> coms. The Fortress instructions contradict themselves on how to even make >>>> up the proper CANbus cable, as apparently MODbus is not stable anymore, >>>> after the latest Solark firmware upgrades. I'm about to just apply the >>>> KISSbus, which is to blow off the closed loop com all together, and *Keep >>>> It Simple S#@$%*!, otherwise known as No Coms at all. >>>> >>>> I've screwed with Com stuff since the 90s, but usually been >>>> disappointed, to downright horrified with the final results. Somebody >>>> explain to me like a 2 year old again, why closed loop is so much better? >>>> Think off grid, where reliability is 10 times more important than squeezing >>>> an extra 5% capacity out of the battery.... Notes in the online >>>> instructions such as "*Failure to properly upgrade the firmware may >>>> cause the battery to stop working!", * are not making we want to push >>>> ahead with closed loop either. >>>> >>>> Ray >>>> On 2/9/2023 11:01 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Ray, >>>> >>>> I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just >>>> introduced a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't >>>> believe they have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to >>>> make it work. >>>> >>>> Christopher >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the >>>>> battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power >>>>> but does the trick >>>>> Fun times >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All; >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. >>>>>> The >>>>>> batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is >>>>>> not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below >>>>>> freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system >>>>>> for >>>>>> the E Vault? >>>>>> >>>>>> Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: >>>>>> 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery >>>>>> that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until >>>>>> the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery >>>>>> would begin accepting a charge. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be >>>>>> wired >>>>>> to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so >>>>>> that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the >>>>>> battery >>>>>> was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the >>>>>> Solark's >>>>>> load controls. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, >>>>>> since >>>>>> the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. >>>>>> >>>>>> The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and >>>>>> sheet >>>>>> rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>> in the Colorado mountain cold..... >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Chris Schaefer’s >>>> >>>> >>>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>>> >>>> **www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >>>> chris at solarandwindfx.com * >>>> >>>> >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> H_802-728-3059 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Fri Feb 10 08:15:45 2023 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 13:15:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) In-Reply-To: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> References: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, I can’t speak to the Fortress product, but Discover will do what they call “dynamic charging” in closed-loop installations. Basically, the BMS will tell the power electronics how to charge the battery, which will lead to a better charging cycle. For example, if the batteries are discharged, and their cell temperature is low, the BMS will push the charging voltage above what the recommended setting would be in an open loop setup. I saw David Norman give a presentation about this topic at the NABCEP conference last year. It was very insightful. Here’s a short article about it: https://blog.discoverbattery.com/benefits-of-closed-loop-charging-with-lynk Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 5:35 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Chris; That's not for the eVault. Other Wrenches have mentioned using a pet heating pad with a 120 vac plug in thermostat. I'm going to try that, I'll report back to the list what I find. Secondly, I am having issues figuring out how to do the closed loop coms. The Fortress instructions contradict themselves on how to even make up the proper CANbus cable, as apparently MODbus is not stable anymore, after the latest Solark firmware upgrades. I'm about to just apply the KISSbus, which is to blow off the closed loop com all together, and Keep It Simple S#@$%!, otherwise known as No Coms at all. I've screwed with Com stuff since the 90s, but usually been disappointed, to downright horrified with the final results. Somebody explain to me like a 2 year old again, why closed loop is so much better? Think off grid, where reliability is 10 times more important than squeezing an extra 5% capacity out of the battery.... Notes in the online instructions such as "Failure to properly upgrade the firmware may cause the battery to stop working!", are not making we want to push ahead with closed loop either. Ray On 2/9/2023 11:01 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: Ray, I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just introduced a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't believe they have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to make it work. Christopher On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power but does the trick Fun times On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All; I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. The batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system for the E Vault? Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery would begin accepting a charge. 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the battery was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the Solark's load controls. I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and sheet rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar in the Colorado mountain cold..... _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 10 11:34:48 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 08:34:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) In-Reply-To: References: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> Message-ID: Agree Will and adding that for generator users closed loop will save 25% or more on fuel. I know alot of you folks do not use Schneider but it is so easy to close loop for offgrid. You just plug Xanbus into one battery and the whole group gets closed loop charged and discharged by XW and its chargers. It is the only Battery that does this with Schneider xanbus. No data to enter! Ever! Been using this since just after the 48 V LG failed beta testing with Schneider in 2017. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-02-10 5:15 am, White, Will via RE-wrenches wrote: > Ray, > > I can't speak to the Fortress product, but Discover will do what they > call "dynamic charging" in closed-loop installations. Basically, the > BMS will tell the power electronics how to charge the battery, which > will lead to a better charging cycle. For example, if the batteries are > discharged, and their cell temperature is low, the BMS will push the > charging voltage above what the recommended setting would be in an open > loop setup. > > I saw David Norman give a presentation about this topic at the NABCEP > conference last year. It was very insightful. > > Here's a short article about it: > https://blog.discoverbattery.com/benefits-of-closed-loop-charging-with-lynk > [1] > > Thanks, > > Will > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 5:35 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Ray Walters > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress > Battery Heater) > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and > know the content is safe. > > Hi Chris; > > That's not for the eVault. Other Wrenches have mentioned using a pet > heating pad with a 120 vac plug in thermostat. I'm going to try that, > I'll report back to the list what I find. > > Secondly, I am having issues figuring out how to do the closed loop > coms. The Fortress instructions contradict themselves on how to even > make up the proper CANbus cable, as apparently MODbus is not stable > anymore, after the latest Solark firmware upgrades. I'm about to just > apply the KISSbus, which is to blow off the closed loop com all > together, and _K__eep It Simple S#@$%_!, otherwise known as No Coms at > all. > > I've screwed with Com stuff since the 90s, but usually been > disappointed, to downright horrified with the final results. Somebody > explain to me like a 2 year old again, why closed loop is so much > better? Think off grid, where reliability is 10 times more important > than squeezing an extra 5% capacity out of the battery.... Notes in the > online instructions such as "_Failure to properly upgrade the firmware > may cause the battery to stop working!", _ are not making we want to > push ahead with closed loop either. > > Ray > > On 2/9/2023 11:01 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Ray, > > I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just > introduced a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't > believe they have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to > make it work. > > Christopher > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the > battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low > power but does the trick > > Fun times > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All; > > I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. > The > batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is > not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below > freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system > for > the E Vault? > > Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: > 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery > that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until > the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery > would begin accepting a charge. > > 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired > to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so > that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the > battery > was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the > Solark's > load controls. > > I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since > the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. > > The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and > sheet > rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > in the Colorado mountain cold..... > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [3] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [4] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [3] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [4] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] -- Chris Schaefer's [8] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com [9] ~ E-mail: _chris at solarandwindfx.com_ __ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [2] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [3] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] ------------------------- Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://blog.discoverbattery.com/benefits-of-closed-loop-charging-with-lynk [2] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!aOirLqAKOkutrK3kXMVPQFUvTVwi5Ed2-z8al950WZ8AsjxzLvQv5vuWAD-edZoHz-NI79e9HeGbXJvZOXZT3SL13xntRMUQ$ [3] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!aOirLqAKOkutrK3kXMVPQFUvTVwi5Ed2-z8al950WZ8AsjxzLvQv5vuWAD-edZoHz-NI79e9HeGbXJvZOXZT3SL131rUae9B$ [4] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!aOirLqAKOkutrK3kXMVPQFUvTVwi5Ed2-z8al950WZ8AsjxzLvQv5vuWAD-edZoHz-NI79e9HeGbXJvZOXZT3SL130uFLxPI$ [5] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!aOirLqAKOkutrK3kXMVPQFUvTVwi5Ed2-z8al950WZ8AsjxzLvQv5vuWAD-edZoHz-NI79e9HeGbXJvZOXZT3SL13zSDOT-Y$ [6] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!aOirLqAKOkutrK3kXMVPQFUvTVwi5Ed2-z8al950WZ8AsjxzLvQv5vuWAD-edZoHz-NI79e9HeGbXJvZOXZT3SL13-ZWuS23$ [7] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.members.re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!aOirLqAKOkutrK3kXMVPQFUvTVwi5Ed2-z8al950WZ8AsjxzLvQv5vuWAD-edZoHz-NI79e9HeGbXJvZOXZT3SL133Qi5YPL$ [8] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [9] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.solarandwindfx.com__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!aOirLqAKOkutrK3kXMVPQFUvTVwi5Ed2-z8al950WZ8AsjxzLvQv5vuWAD-edZoHz-NI79e9HeGbXJvZOXZT3SL13-Xdex0q$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Fri Feb 10 12:44:07 2023 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier III) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 12:44:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Stupid Outlet Message-ID: With the talk about heating battery banks on the list lately I thought I'd share fix that I did last year. I have an off grid customer with a place used by an extended family. They were engaging in the usual mission creep. Maybe mission leap would be a better expression. Anyway, they were plugging in stupid things and periodically crashing the battery bank. I got a 6x6 metal box and put a standard 120V outlet in it, as well as a 40A* rated solid state relay. There's a heavy duty extension cord coming out of it and a control wire for the relay. I stuck it on the wall next to the Outback panel, wired it into an aux relay, and plugged it into the outlet on the side of the panel. I programmed the system to only turn on the relay/outlet when the battery voltage was 56.8V or higher. The battery pack would have to be charged and the sun shining to turn on the outlet. I (privately) call it the Stupid Outlet. I suppose, to be kind, I should call it the Ignorant Outlet, but I've been over this with them a few times. I told the clients that if they had any question at all about whether they should plug something in, plug it into the gray box. For example, they have a dehumidifier they want to use in the basement. About 450 watts. Into the Stupid Outlet it goes. It only runs when the sun is shining. It reduces my stress level. I suppose you could tell clients it is the Sunshine Outlet. *40A because I want it to be 2x oversized for absolute durability. -- Hilton Dier III Missisquoi River Hydro Renewable Energy Design -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Fri Feb 10 14:42:04 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 11:42:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) In-Reply-To: References: <99ef2ed3-3d72-7c78-e7b7-5b0f4d87eb6d@solarray.com> Message-ID: That is with Discover batteries. Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 10, 2023, at 8:34 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Agree Will and adding that for generator users closed loop will save 25% or more on fuel. > > I know alot of you folks do not use Schneider but it is so easy to close loop for offgrid. You just plug Xanbus into one battery and the whole group gets closed loop charged and discharged by XW and its chargers. It is the only Battery that does this with Schneider xanbus. > > No data to enter! Ever! Been using this since just after the 48 V LG failed beta testing with Schneider in 2017. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > >> On 2023-02-10 5:15 am, White, Will via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> >> >> I can't speak to the Fortress product, but Discover will do what they call "dynamic charging" in closed-loop installations. Basically, the BMS will tell the power electronics how to charge the battery, which will lead to a better charging cycle. For example, if the batteries are discharged, and their cell temperature is low, the BMS will push the charging voltage above what the recommended setting would be in an open loop setup. >> >> >> >> I saw David Norman give a presentation about this topic at the NABCEP conference last year. It was very insightful. >> >> >> >> Here's a short article about it: https://blog.discoverbattery.com/benefits-of-closed-loop-charging-with-lynk >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Will >> >> >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 5:35 PM >> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Cc: Ray Walters >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Solark-Fortress Com? (was Fortress Battery Heater) >> >> >> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >> >> >> >> Hi Chris; >> >> That's not for the eVault. Other Wrenches have mentioned using a pet heating pad with a 120 vac plug in thermostat. I'm going to try that, I'll report back to the list what I find. >> >> Secondly, I am having issues figuring out how to do the closed loop coms. The Fortress instructions contradict themselves on how to even make up the proper CANbus cable, as apparently MODbus is not stable anymore, after the latest Solark firmware upgrades. I'm about to just apply the KISSbus, which is to blow off the closed loop com all together, and Keep It Simple S#@$%!, otherwise known as No Coms at all. >> >> I've screwed with Com stuff since the 90s, but usually been disappointed, to downright horrified with the final results. Somebody explain to me like a 2 year old again, why closed loop is so much better? Think off grid, where reliability is 10 times more important than squeezing an extra 5% capacity out of the battery.... Notes in the online instructions such as "Failure to properly upgrade the firmware may cause the battery to stop working!", are not making we want to push ahead with closed loop either. >> >> Ray >> >> On 2/9/2023 11:01 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Ray, >> >> >> >> I'd suggest reaching out to the Fortress techie's as they just introduced a heater product for their enclosure products. While I don't believe they have a unit specif to the eVault but you should be able to make it work. >> >> >> >> Christopher >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:43 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Pet heater have worked for me, I air gap a sealed heater box under the battery, thermostat inside the top of the battery. It's slow and low power but does the trick >> >> Fun times >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 3:05 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi All; >> >> I have a fresh Fortress Evault installation with a Solark inverter. The >> batteries are indoors in the center of the house, but the customer is >> not there full time, so the battery is unfortunately going below >> freezing. What are the best options for setting up a heating system for >> the E Vault? >> >> Here are ideas that I have not tried, but am considering: >> 1) add a 240 v, 1000 w baseboard heater in the room near the battery >> that is wired to only run off the generator. Run the generator until >> the heat comes up, and then hopefully after 30 minutes, the battery >> would begin accepting a charge. >> >> 2) Add an 120 vac heating blanket under the evault that would be wired >> to a thermostat, but also have a relay control from the PV system, so >> that the heater would only operate when the sun was out, and the battery >> was below 50F. I don't quite know how to set this up with the Solark's >> load controls. >> >> I've considered some DC options, but they don't make much sense, since >> the inverter has to be on to charge from PV anyway. >> >> The long term plan is for the client to finish the insulation, and sheet >> rock, and add a gas wall heater in there as needed. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> in the Colorado mountain cold..... >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Wed Feb 15 17:39:13 2023 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 14:39:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin test & Leads on Wrench List Message-ID: <1676500764215.022d72556739fbbf@re-wrenches.org> Hi Wrenches, haven't seen any postings in a few days, so I'm sending this to see if it goes out to the list. I don't need a response, but if you do please make it off-list. It's also a good opportunity to remind folks about posing leads and the like to the list. - - - - - - - - Hi there. Some time ago, the Wrenches reached consensus to not allow leads on this list 1. If you get a lead you cannot handle, then either send it directly to someone you think will be interested (but not the list) or, 2. Send the inquirer a piece of email giving them references to find someone else, like the www.nabcep.org web site. 3. Check the Wrench List bio page to see if any of us are nearby the proposed site, www.members.re-wrenches.org 4. It is OK to post leads on the other list, RE-Markets, if you are a member. ------------------------ Michael Welch Sr. Editor Home Power magazine www.homepower.com From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sun Feb 19 17:33:18 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 22:33:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tile Roof Install Message-ID: Can someone possibly send me a few pictures of installs on a tile roof with tiles removed where the mods would go, and asphalt shingles or similar installed under the mods? We have a client that is wanting to see how this could look Please email me off list, if so Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From welch.nicholas.r at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 10:33:36 2023 From: welch.nicholas.r at gmail.com (Nicholas Welch) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 10:33:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] In Need of a Solaredge 17.3k Inverter Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, ` If anyone has an SE 17.3k in stock that they do not need in the immediate future (~12 weeks) please contact me off list. We have just wrapped a 140 kW commercial job and we were shorted one inverter. Thanks in advance, Nick Welch Sugar Hollow Solar (937) 623-4026 NC Electrical License #U34779, NABCEP PVIP 102216-012581 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Feb 20 13:21:39 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 10:21:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Disconnect for first responders Message-ID: <712d8861ff894cf03b0f783cfcd441ae@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Here is how this resolved for my upcoming project: I submitted a request to the building department to waive the requirement for a DC disconnect. I based the justification on the need to keep a pressure pump for the fire sprinklers and a fire alarm operational. I will supply an external AC disconnect to de-energize all premise wiring except those circuits mentioned above. The request was granted. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Mon Feb 20 13:39:38 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:39:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Disconnect for first responders In-Reply-To: <712d8861ff894cf03b0f783cfcd441ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <712d8861ff894cf03b0f783cfcd441ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Did they ever explain why they were requiring it on a nominal 48 volt system? NEC 480.7(B) (from memory, I think that is the right article) says it is for nominal voltage of 60 volts or higher. IE your 48 volt system is exempt. Jay pointed this out on February 3rd. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Here is how this resolved for my upcoming project: I submitted a request > to the building department to waive the requirement for a DC disconnect. I > based the justification on the need to keep a pressure pump for the fire > sprinklers and a fire alarm operational. I will supply an external AC > disconnect to de-energize all premise wiring except those circuits > mentioned above. The request was granted. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Feb 20 14:03:56 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 12:03:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Disconnect for first responders In-Reply-To: References: <712d8861ff894cf03b0f783cfcd441ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 480.7 is Disconnect Methods, and addresses different scenarios and voltages (A) is for batteries "with a voltage over 60 volts dc" requiring a disconnect accessible to and within sight of the battery (B) is in regards to 1- and 2-family dwellings, and doesn't specify a voltage, just that an external, emergency disconnect is required (C) is segmenting strings into 240 Vdc nominal or less segments, and on it goes to (G) I don't agree with the earlier statement in this chain (and I didn't dig up the original thread to see it in context) - based on how the Section is arranged; if the 60 volt requirement applied to both (A) and (B) then they would most likely be (A)(1) and (A)(2), under an (A) heading that included a statement to the effect of "For stationary storage batteries of 60 volts blah blah the following shall apply." As it is now, the emergency disconnect requirement (B) doesn't specify a voltage above which it applies, and the voltage specification in (A) doesn't apply to (B). Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 11:40 AM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Did they ever explain why they were requiring it on a nominal 48 volt > system? NEC 480.7(B) (from memory, I think that is the right article) says > it is for nominal voltage of 60 volts or higher. IE your 48 volt system is > exempt. > > Jay pointed this out on February 3rd. > > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> Here is how this resolved for my upcoming project: I submitted a request >> to the building department to waive the requirement for a DC disconnect. I >> based the justification on the need to keep a pressure pump for the fire >> sprinklers and a fire alarm operational. I will supply an external AC >> disconnect to de-energize all premise wiring except those circuits >> mentioned above. The request was granted. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 16:43:13 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 14:43:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] absolyte GP battery question/ sideways mounting. Message-ID: HI All, I was just contacted by someone who has a 6 yr old absolyte GP 100G33 battery that has lost a lot of capacity. The manual only lists a horizontal install, but this was installed on its side which I”m guessing was due to space issues. I am thinking that isn’t good for it, but hopefully someone actually knows if this is bad for it or not. I have only seen pictures but am just trying to inform myself before I head out. Its also possible that the settings are incorrect which could be the cause as well. Thanks in advance jay From toddcory at finestplanet.com Mon Feb 20 17:09:12 2023 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (Todd Cory) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 14:09:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] absolyte GP battery question/ sideways mounting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18670dfa758.27c7.4317fda5bda71af373de9c45c94f08a7@finestplanet.com> Hey Jay, This is this is only anecdotal but I have two UPS's with sealed batteries. One sits where the battery is up right. The other one sits on its side and the battery is horizontal. The longevity of the battery in the one oriented upright is about double the other one. Todd On February 20, 2023 1:43:49 PM jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > HI All, > > I was just contacted by someone who has a 6 yr old absolyte GP 100G33 > battery that has lost a lot of capacity. > > The manual only lists a horizontal install, but this was installed on its > side which I”m guessing was due to space issues. > > I am thinking that isn’t good for it, but hopefully someone actually knows > if this is bad for it or not. > > I have only seen pictures but am just trying to inform myself before I head > out. Its also possible that the settings are incorrect which could be the > cause as well. > > Thanks in advance > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent with AquaMail for Android https://www.mobisystems.com/aqua-mail From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 17:12:59 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 14:12:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] absolyte GP battery question/ sideways mounting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Flat is the preferred orientation and they say that if installed with the cells vertical it would lose some small percentage of capacity. They never said anything about reduced life that I remember. It is very easy to have short life on these if not fully charged very often. The will sulphate very easily. Also quality is not what it had been. Brad Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 20, 2023, at 1:43 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI All, > > I was just contacted by someone who has a 6 yr old absolyte GP 100G33 battery that has lost a lot of capacity. > > The manual only lists a horizontal install, but this was installed on its side which I”m guessing was due to space issues. > > I am thinking that isn’t good for it, but hopefully someone actually knows if this is bad for it or not. > > I have only seen pictures but am just trying to inform myself before I head out. Its also possible that the settings are incorrect which could be the cause as well. > > Thanks in advance > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Feb 20 17:18:31 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 15:18:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] absolyte GP battery question/ sideways mounting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They do make a "single cell module" version that is upright, in a steel case, with the terminals on top; its top is a different color and dimensions than the front of the rack-mounted ones in their literature. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 3:13 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Flat is the preferred orientation and they say that if installed with the > cells vertical it would lose some small percentage of capacity. They never > said anything about reduced life that I remember. It is very easy to have > short life on these if not fully charged very often. The will sulphate very > easily. Also quality is not what it had been. > > Brad > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Feb 20, 2023, at 1:43 PM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > HI All, > > > > I was just contacted by someone who has a 6 yr old absolyte GP 100G33 > battery that has lost a lot of capacity. > > > > The manual only lists a horizontal install, but this was installed on > its side which I”m guessing was due to space issues. > > > > I am thinking that isn’t good for it, but hopefully someone actually > knows if this is bad for it or not. > > > > I have only seen pictures but am just trying to inform myself before I > head out. Its also possible that the settings are incorrect which could be > the cause as well. > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 10:18:23 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 07:18:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] absolyte GP battery question/ sideways mounting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the single cells are series 50 plates only. They are shorter so the orientation is not as critical as the taller cells. Brad On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 2:18 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > They do make a "single cell module" version that is upright, in a steel > case, with the terminals on top; its top is a different color and > dimensions than the front of the rack-mounted ones in their literature. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 3:13 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Flat is the preferred orientation and they say that if installed with the >> cells vertical it would lose some small percentage of capacity. They never >> said anything about reduced life that I remember. It is very easy to have >> short life on these if not fully charged very often. The will sulphate very >> easily. Also quality is not what it had been. >> >> Brad >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Feb 20, 2023, at 1:43 PM, jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> > HI All, >> > >> > I was just contacted by someone who has a 6 yr old absolyte GP 100G33 >> battery that has lost a lot of capacity. >> > >> > The manual only lists a horizontal install, but this was installed on >> its side which I”m guessing was due to space issues. >> > >> > I am thinking that isn’t good for it, but hopefully someone actually >> knows if this is bad for it or not. >> > >> > I have only seen pictures but am just trying to inform myself before I >> head out. Its also possible that the settings are incorrect which could be >> the cause as well. >> > >> > Thanks in advance >> > >> > jay >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 22 11:40:19 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 11:40:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI 14TL Message-ID: If anyone knows where I might be able to find a couple of replacements for this inverter, please let me know. I have a couple that were underwater from Hurricane Ian. I'm debating what to do. Any other thoughts for an easy replacement would be appreciated if these are no longer available. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 22 12:25:04 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 12:25:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI 14TL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction, I just found out what I need are actually PVI-7600TL On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 11:40 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > If anyone knows where I might be able to find a couple of replacements for > this inverter, please let me know. > > I have a couple that were underwater from Hurricane Ian. I'm debating what > to do. Any other thoughts for an easy replacement would be appreciated if > these are no longer available. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Feb 22 19:16:36 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 00:16:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal tank coils Message-ID: Thermal Wrenches, can someone recommend a supplier for pre-coiled stainless or copper tube heat exchangers? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 21:04:11 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 18:04:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal tank coils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any plumbing supply shop has these, soft copper comes in 50 feet and up,you can use 1t2",5/8" or 3/4" I use double 1/2" and "T" it on top of the tank, Funtimes On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 4:16 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thermal Wrenches, > can someone recommend a supplier for pre-coiled stainless or copper tube > heat exchangers? > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Feb 23 12:02:16 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:02:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Rise Message-ID: Hi All, I've got a customer who is having issues with high voltage at their house. This first became an issue after installing 23.1kw of AC solar output. They have some GREE heat pumps which have been having some failures. The heat pump people are saying that the problem is that the voltage is above 252V. The grid voltage was measured at 246V with the solar off, and 260V with the solar cranking. The inverters are within 10' of the MSP where there is a line side connection. Then there is 4/0 AL cable which has to go roughly 175' before it reaches the transformer. At 246V and 92A, there should only be about a 3.6V rise, or maybe 4V including the wire from the inverters to the combiner to the MSP. Yet somehow there is about 14V of rise. The service entrance cable is buried. It is in conduit where it goes into and out of the ground, but I have no idea whether there is conduit for most of the run underground. Maybe there is a nick in the cable underground which has caused corrosion? Does anyone have any ideas of how to find the cause of the increased resistance? I should go back out there with an IR camera to check the connections that I can at least get to in the house. I have suggested that they install a buck/boost transformer on the heat pump circuits to bring down the voltage a little bit. But they are also concerned about the high voltage causing issues with other electrical appliances in the house. Does anyone have any anecdata to show whether there are other hidden issues if the house is at 260V during times of high solar production? Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 12:18:09 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:18:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Rise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 12:31:33 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:31:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Rise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, Where is the utility voltage being measured? I might suggest doing point to point voltage calculations based on the true wire size and then verifying with measurement. It's great to use an IR camera to look for hot spots. Do this when the problem is the worst. Is it symmetric with L1 to Neutral and L2 to Neutral? Sounds like a utility issue to me, perhaps an undersized transformer. Good luck and please let us know what you find. Thanks On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 10:18 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dave > It might be that the utility transformer is where the extra voltage rise > is coming from? > > Jay > > > > On Feb 23, 2023, at 10:03 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi All, > > I've got a customer who is having issues with high voltage at their house. > This first became an issue after installing 23.1kw of AC solar output. They > have some GREE heat pumps which have been having some failures. The heat > pump people are saying that the problem is that the voltage is above 252V. > > The grid voltage was measured at 246V with the solar off, and 260V with > the solar cranking. The inverters are within 10' of the MSP where there is > a line side connection. Then there is 4/0 AL cable which has to go roughly > 175' before it reaches the transformer. At 246V and 92A, there should only > be about a 3.6V rise, or maybe 4V including the wire from the inverters to > the combiner to the MSP. Yet somehow there is about 14V of rise. > > The service entrance cable is buried. It is in conduit where it goes into > and out of the ground, but I have no idea whether there is conduit for most > of the run underground. Maybe there is a nick in the cable underground > which has caused corrosion? Does anyone have any ideas of how to find the > cause of the increased resistance? I should go back out there with an IR > camera to check the connections that I can at least get to in the house. > > I have suggested that they install a buck/boost transformer on the heat > pump circuits to bring down the voltage a little bit. But they are also > concerned about the high voltage causing issues with other electrical > appliances in the house. Does anyone have any anecdata to show whether > there are other hidden issues if the house is at 260V during times of high > solar production? > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 12:56:03 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:56:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, We are in the middle of planning for a full solar panel replacement at a house with AC modules. It was a Solaria 355 with an Enphase IQ7+. Solaria is going to replace the modules with a standard module, not an AC module (MC4 cabling not an Q Cable to J-box). This seems OK but the issue is the that microinverters don't have an integrated plate to mount to the existing rail. I've talked with Enphase and it doesn't appear that they are willing to sell us this mounting flange plate (or it could have been too unusual for this particular tech support contact to deal with). Im sure I can fab up something, but curious if anyone has dealt with this? Or has a good contact at enphase that might be able to help with this unusual request. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 23 13:09:50 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:09:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac: Maybe the SnapnRack MLPE flange kit is what you need? https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/SNR_MLPE-Frame-Attachment-Kit-Installation-Manual_v.1.1.pdf William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, February 23, 2023 9:56 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Mac Lewis *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate Hello Wrenches, We are in the middle of planning for a full solar panel replacement at a house with AC modules. It was a Solaria 355 with an Enphase IQ7+. Solaria is going to replace the modules with a standard module, not an AC module (MC4 cabling not an Q Cable to J-box). This seems OK but the issue is the that microinverters don't have an integrated plate to mount to the existing rail. I've talked with Enphase and it doesn't appear that they are willing to sell us this mounting flange plate (or it could have been too unusual for this particular tech support contact to deal with). Im sure I can fab up something, but curious if anyone has dealt with this? Or has a good contact at enphase that might be able to help with this unusual request. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Thu Feb 23 13:16:49 2023 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:16:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Voltage Rise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve run into a similar issue, and the problem was on the utilities side. They had shut down the local substation for repairs and were pumping power in from the next town over. To push the power that far, they increased the line voltage, which was causing issues with the PV inverter. I’d suggest asking the utility to check the voltage at the transformer. They should be able to reduce it if it’s too high. Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 12:02 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Tedeyan Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Voltage Rise CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi All, I've got a customer who is having issues with high voltage at their house. This first became an issue after installing 23.1kw of AC solar output. They have some GREE heat pumps which have been having some failures. The heat pump people are saying that the problem is that the voltage is above 252V. The grid voltage was measured at 246V with the solar off, and 260V with the solar cranking. The inverters are within 10' of the MSP where there is a line side connection. Then there is 4/0 AL cable which has to go roughly 175' before it reaches the transformer. At 246V and 92A, there should only be about a 3.6V rise, or maybe 4V including the wire from the inverters to the combiner to the MSP. Yet somehow there is about 14V of rise. The service entrance cable is buried. It is in conduit where it goes into and out of the ground, but I have no idea whether there is conduit for most of the run underground. Maybe there is a nick in the cable underground which has caused corrosion? Does anyone have any ideas of how to find the cause of the increased resistance? I should go back out there with an IR camera to check the connections that I can at least get to in the house. I have suggested that they install a buck/boost transformer on the heat pump circuits to bring down the voltage a little bit. But they are also concerned about the high voltage causing issues with other electrical appliances in the house. Does anyone have any anecdata to show whether there are other hidden issues if the house is at 260V during times of high solar production? Thanks! -Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Feb 23 13:27:20 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 11:27:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] US Dept of energy tax guidelines Message-ID: <006301d947b4$77faa2a0$67efe7e0$@solarwork.com> https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2022-11/Federal-Solar-Tax-Credits -for-Businesses-11-22.pdf Hey All - I just found this hope it's helpful to someone! It turned around my level of information on commercial tax credits for solar write-off & is a great doc to send to prospective clients & their CPA's. I find that a lot of CPA's still are in the dark as to what to do with solar tax incentives. If nothing else it will possibly cure insomnia. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 www.greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 13:32:26 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 10:32:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Rise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Dave I have had this issue, first turn off everything, check static voltage, this will drive everything else. If the static is 240 L-L look at the utility side you might have small conductors, you might also have a transformer size issue bottlenecking the current. Next turn loads more the better watch if there is a drop and how much. Now turn off everything and power up the solar again watch the voltage at the meter if it climbs up and close to limit it might be the feeders. It's all process of elimination. Lots of fun On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 9:03 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I've got a customer who is having issues with high voltage at their house. > This first became an issue after installing 23.1kw of AC solar output. They > have some GREE heat pumps which have been having some failures. The heat > pump people are saying that the problem is that the voltage is above 252V. > > The grid voltage was measured at 246V with the solar off, and 260V with > the solar cranking. The inverters are within 10' of the MSP where there is > a line side connection. Then there is 4/0 AL cable which has to go roughly > 175' before it reaches the transformer. At 246V and 92A, there should only > be about a 3.6V rise, or maybe 4V including the wire from the inverters to > the combiner to the MSP. Yet somehow there is about 14V of rise. > > The service entrance cable is buried. It is in conduit where it goes into > and out of the ground, but I have no idea whether there is conduit for most > of the run underground. Maybe there is a nick in the cable underground > which has caused corrosion? Does anyone have any ideas of how to find the > cause of the increased resistance? I should go back out there with an IR > camera to check the connections that I can at least get to in the house. > > I have suggested that they install a buck/boost transformer on the heat > pump circuits to bring down the voltage a little bit. But they are also > concerned about the high voltage causing issues with other electrical > appliances in the house. Does anyone have any anecdata to show whether > there are other hidden issues if the house is at 260V during times of high > solar production? > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Feb 23 13:36:20 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:36:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Rise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The customer has already had the utility come out to take a look. He says they had him turn off the solar, and then they measured 246V at the transformer and then said it's not their problem. He was going to try to get them back out to check the connections at the transformer and the meter. Also, that's a good suggestion to check each leg separately to see if maybe there is only one line that has a bad connection. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 1:33 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, Dave > I have had this issue, first turn off everything, check static voltage, > this will drive everything else. If the static is 240 L-L look at the > utility side you might have small conductors, you might also have a > transformer size issue bottlenecking the current. Next turn loads more the > better watch if there is a drop and how much. Now turn off everything and > power up the solar again watch the voltage at the meter if it climbs up and > close to limit it might be the feeders. It's all process of elimination. > Lots of fun > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 9:03 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I've got a customer who is having issues with high voltage at their >> house. This first became an issue after installing 23.1kw of AC solar >> output. They have some GREE heat pumps which have been having some >> failures. The heat pump people are saying that the problem is that the >> voltage is above 252V. >> >> The grid voltage was measured at 246V with the solar off, and 260V with >> the solar cranking. The inverters are within 10' of the MSP where there is >> a line side connection. Then there is 4/0 AL cable which has to go roughly >> 175' before it reaches the transformer. At 246V and 92A, there should only >> be about a 3.6V rise, or maybe 4V including the wire from the inverters to >> the combiner to the MSP. Yet somehow there is about 14V of rise. >> >> The service entrance cable is buried. It is in conduit where it goes into >> and out of the ground, but I have no idea whether there is conduit for most >> of the run underground. Maybe there is a nick in the cable underground >> which has caused corrosion? Does anyone have any ideas of how to find the >> cause of the increased resistance? I should go back out there with an IR >> camera to check the connections that I can at least get to in the house. >> >> I have suggested that they install a buck/boost transformer on the heat >> pump circuits to bring down the voltage a little bit. But they are also >> concerned about the high voltage causing issues with other electrical >> appliances in the house. Does anyone have any anecdata to show whether >> there are other hidden issues if the house is at 260V during times of high >> solar production? >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 288-2898 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:06:20 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 12:06:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Its actually the alumium flange that is typically tapped into the microinverter plastic housing that I'm after (the part that is attached to the rail during installation). In this case, the micros were in held a plastic bracket that was glued onto the module backsheet and so the standard mounting flange wasn't part of the set up. This is certainly a disadvantage of an AC module... On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 11:13 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Mac: > > > > Maybe the SnapnRack MLPE flange kit is what you need? > > > > > https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/SNR_MLPE-Frame-Attachment-Kit-Installation-Manual_v.1.1.pdf > > > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, February 23, 2023 9:56 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Mac Lewis > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > We are in the middle of planning for a full solar panel replacement at a > house with AC modules. It was a Solaria 355 with an Enphase IQ7+. Solaria > is going to replace the modules with a standard module, not an AC module > (MC4 cabling not an Q Cable to J-box). This seems OK but the issue is the > that microinverters don't have an integrated plate to mount to the existing > rail. > > > > I've talked with Enphase and it doesn't appear that they are willing to > sell us this mounting flange plate (or it could have been too unusual for > this particular tech support contact to deal with). Im sure I can fab up > something, but curious if anyone has dealt with this? Or has a good > contact at enphase that might be able to help with this unusual request. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Feb 23 14:32:35 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 14:32:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this a warranty issue? If so, the manufacturer should be supplying a new microinverter as well. We had a little "experiment" with Qcell AC modules. A couple dozen contracts and our guys hate them. The wire management is a nightmare for the Q cable, and The module manufacturer didn't do us any favors with wire management for the DC conductors. Not being able to make the array map before the panels are laid is also a problem. We abandoned this product pretty quickly. This is definitely a downside of AC modules. You really have to replace it with another AC module unless you are replacing the microinverter as well. Post Hurricane Ian, with all of the modules damaged from winborne debris here, I'm glad we don't have many AC modules out there. It's hard enough finding a module that looks similar and has a similar size. Finding an AC module with similar characteristics would be a nightmare. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 2:07 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Its actually the alumium flange that is typically tapped into the > microinverter plastic housing that I'm after (the part that is attached to > the rail during installation). In this case, the micros were in held a > plastic bracket that was glued onto the module backsheet and so the > standard mounting flange wasn't part of the set up. This is certainly a > disadvantage of an AC module... > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 11:13 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Mac: >> >> >> >> Maybe the SnapnRack MLPE flange kit is what you need? >> >> >> >> >> https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/SNR_MLPE-Frame-Attachment-Kit-Installation-Manual_v.1.1.pdf >> >> >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 23, 2023 9:56 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Mac Lewis >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate >> >> >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> We are in the middle of planning for a full solar panel replacement at a >> house with AC modules. It was a Solaria 355 with an Enphase IQ7+. Solaria >> is going to replace the modules with a standard module, not an AC module >> (MC4 cabling not an Q Cable to J-box). This seems OK but the issue is the >> that microinverters don't have an integrated plate to mount to the existing >> rail. >> >> >> >> I've talked with Enphase and it doesn't appear that they are willing to >> sell us this mounting flange plate (or it could have been too unusual for >> this particular tech support contact to deal with). Im sure I can fab up >> something, but curious if anyone has dealt with this? Or has a good >> contact at enphase that might be able to help with this unusual request. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:44:43 2023 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:44:43 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mac, If you have rails beneath the module wouldn't it be easier to mount an inverter there with a bolt that fastens to rail? William's solution looks great, but I thought to ask because this would be cheaper and easier to wire. Have a great day everyone 🌞 James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-39784 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 7:57 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > We are in the middle of planning for a full solar panel replacement at a > house with AC modules. It was a Solaria 355 with an Enphase IQ7+. Solaria > is going to replace the modules with a standard module, not an AC module > (MC4 cabling not an Q Cable to J-box). This seems OK but the issue is the > that microinverters don't have an integrated plate to mount to the existing > rail. > > I've talked with Enphase and it doesn't appear that they are willing to > sell us this mounting flange plate (or it could have been too unusual for > this particular tech support contact to deal with). Im sure I can fab up > something, but curious if anyone has dealt with this? Or has a good > contact at enphase that might be able to help with this unusual request. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Feb 23 19:21:32 2023 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 16:21:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar panel warranty exclusion for salt water spray Message-ID: Aloha all, Does anyone know of a module manufacturer who does NOT have a warranty exclusion when it comes to placing modules in the vicinity of the ocean and salt water spray? Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathanjstumpff at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 21:26:44 2023 From: nathanjstumpff at gmail.com (Nathan J. Stumpff) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:26:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal tank coils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, I bought those once a long time ago but sorry, striking out finding documentation from where. Bought only once because it really is pretty simple and we just started making them ourselves. The hardest part is getting a good, consistent and even bend. The ultimate rig (after lots of trial and error) was a large gas hot water tank. It had a whole perfectly down the center for the gas flu, we inserted a piece of 2" or 2-1/2" rigid pipe and then put the pipe on pipe rollers (so the tank was now horizontal and could roll freely.) Secure one end of your tubing to one end of the tank and then just slowly roll the tank around, wrapping the CU tubing as you go. With a little practice you can make them look perfect. We used Type M soft CU. While they are still on the tank, you lay a support 1/2" piece of hard CU tube perpendicular to the tubing coils and tack the coils to the support maybe every 2 or 3 coils. We would evenly space three supports around the coils. Run them a bit long on the bottom for temporary feet and longer still on the top for structure to hang them (assuming you are going at the top of your tank.) CU is pretty easy to work with but obviously stainless would be a whole different animal. Trying to dig up some photos of the rig but striking out there too, but here is a final product shot. Good luck, -Nathan [image: Coils.jpg] On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 6:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Any plumbing supply shop has these, soft copper comes in 50 feet and > up,you can use 1t2",5/8" or 3/4" I use double 1/2" and "T" it on top of the > tank, > Funtimes > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 4:16 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thermal Wrenches, >> can someone recommend a supplier for pre-coiled stainless or copper tube >> heat exchangers? >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Coils.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 311744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 24 09:14:12 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 09:14:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase ACM to rail mount plate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What Mac is saying is there is no metal flange on the microinverters that are attached to AC modules. They just snap into a plastic flange adhered to the backsheet. It's just a plastic case with no way to attach it to rails or a panel frame. William's solution requires a microinverter with a metal flange. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 2:45 PM James Rudolph via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Mac, > If you have rails beneath the module wouldn't it be easier to mount an > inverter there with a bolt that fastens to rail? > William's solution looks great, but I thought to ask because this would be > cheaper and easier to wire. > > Have a great day everyone 🌞 > > James B. Rudolph > > > Independent Energy > > C-39784 ES #10816 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 > > C. 808.313.9701 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 7:57 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> We are in the middle of planning for a full solar panel replacement at a >> house with AC modules. It was a Solaria 355 with an Enphase IQ7+. Solaria >> is going to replace the modules with a standard module, not an AC module >> (MC4 cabling not an Q Cable to J-box). This seems OK but the issue is the >> that microinverters don't have an integrated plate to mount to the existing >> rail. >> >> I've talked with Enphase and it doesn't appear that they are willing to >> sell us this mounting flange plate (or it could have been too unusual for >> this particular tech support contact to deal with). Im sure I can fab up >> something, but curious if anyone has dealt with this? Or has a good >> contact at enphase that might be able to help with this unusual request. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Fri Feb 24 08:29:37 2023 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 08:29:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar panel warranty exclusion for salt water spray In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1287A5A6-5D60-4C41-9B0D-FE1F65291721@solshineenergy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 462494 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: preview.png Type: image/png Size: 194746 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 10:53:54 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 08:53:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing Message-ID: Good Morning Wrenches, I am looking for suggestions on suppliers that work in the 1000Vdc UL listed equipment space. Specifically, I'm trying to build a 1000Vdc rated combiner (Combining 4 x 100A rated battery outputs up to 900Vdc) as well as add OCPD (fuse or breaker) on the output going to the storage inverter. I'd love to find a packaged UL listed combiner for this, but I've had no luck with that. Any suggestions/supplier contacts are appreciated Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danny at sesre.com Wed Mar 1 09:32:34 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2023 14:32:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have not used them in some time, but used to a LOT and generally happy with them. http://www.solarbos.com/Products Lead times were a bit long, in the 1-2 month range, but who knows what they are now, last time I used them was pre-pandemic. -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2023 10:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing Good Morning Wrenches, I am looking for suggestions on suppliers that work in the 1000Vdc UL listed equipment space. Specifically, I'm trying to build a 1000Vdc rated combiner (Combining 4 x 100A rated battery outputs up to 900Vdc) as well as add OCPD (fuse or breaker) on the output going to the storage inverter. I'd love to find a packaged UL listed combiner for this, but I've had no luck with that. Any suggestions/supplier contacts are appreciated Thanks! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 1 09:42:49 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2023 07:42:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Daniel, yes I was hopeful with SolarBOS, but they let me know they are unable to do this right now. I may need to do a fully custom solution but that's always iffy with inspectors. This really should be a product at this point so I'm a bit surprised how difficult it is to find something. Thanks! On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 7:32 AM Daniel Young wrote: > Have not used them in some time, but used to a LOT and generally happy > with them. > > > > http://www.solarbos.com/Products > > > > Lead times were a bit long, in the 1-2 month range, but who knows what > they are now, last time I used them was pre-pandemic. > > > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Sunday, February 26, 2023 10:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Mac Lewis > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing > > > > Good Morning Wrenches, > > > > I am looking for suggestions on suppliers that work in the 1000Vdc UL > listed equipment space. Specifically, I'm trying to build a 1000Vdc rated > combiner (Combining 4 x 100A rated battery outputs up to 900Vdc) as well as > add OCPD (fuse or breaker) on the output going to the storage inverter. > I'd love to find a packaged UL listed combiner for this, but I've had no > luck with that. Any suggestions/supplier contacts are appreciated > > > > Thanks! > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Mar 1 13:39:54 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:39:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes there is a definite need for 1000vdc Combiner. it does not exist without as you say custom work by BOS or others. This was mentioned in past threads but I ended up building my own for a 1 mwh high voltage LFP system. All ul Components and fusing, but inspection was not required. Contact me off list no give you a de facto BOM of Items used. On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 9:44 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thanks Daniel, yes I was hopeful with SolarBOS, but they let me know they > are unable to do this right now. I may need to do a fully custom solution > but that's always iffy with inspectors. This really should be a product at > this point so I'm a bit surprised how difficult it is to find something. > > Thanks! > > On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 7:32 AM Daniel Young wrote: > >> Have not used them in some time, but used to a LOT and generally happy >> with them. >> >> >> >> http://www.solarbos.com/Products >> >> >> >> Lead times were a bit long, in the 1-2 month range, but who knows what >> they are now, last time I used them was pre-pandemic. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Danny Young >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 >> >> Engineering Team Lead >> Solar Energy Solutions >> >> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | >> Indianapolis >> >> 513-448-5176 (mobile) >> >> 877-312-7456 (Main Office) >> >> danny at sesre.com >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Sunday, February 26, 2023 10:54 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Mac Lewis >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing >> >> >> >> Good Morning Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I am looking for suggestions on suppliers that work in the 1000Vdc UL >> listed equipment space. Specifically, I'm trying to build a 1000Vdc rated >> combiner (Combining 4 x 100A rated battery outputs up to 900Vdc) as well as >> add OCPD (fuse or breaker) on the output going to the storage inverter. >> I'd love to find a packaged UL listed combiner for this, but I've had no >> luck with that. Any suggestions/supplier contacts are appreciated >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 2 12:36:01 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 12:36:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing out equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've begun the process of clearing out my solar inventory as I reach the age equivalent of a junk yard.  Reclaimed modules with plenty of life have found homes.  I have quite a few older PV Power (5), Fronius (2) old non arc fault "new inverters", and all the usual suspects of miscellaneous equipment. Has anyone ideas on how to distribute them to interested people?   I don't want any money for them, but pay for shipping or ferry freight.  I was thinking a community solar project, but we need new local utility management and board people to achieve that. Thanks for any advice.  Chris --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Mar 2 12:46:43 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 11:46:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass Message-ID: Hi All, I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my needs? Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Mar 2 13:01:01 2023 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 18:01:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.zoro.com/square-d-cb-accessory-interlock-attachment-qou2dtila/i/G0840896/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping%20feed&utm_content=free%20google%20shopping%20clicks&gclid=CjwKCAiAr4GgBhBFEiwAgwORrQ7ciEpSjpyftUryryWGfWJ7kiFdpiRnJ1DZ3k9ifEZYYBQJ_KYULBoC9qQQAvD_BwE Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2023 12:46:43 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kristopher Schmid Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass Hi All, I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my needs? Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Thu Mar 2 13:18:26 2023 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 13:18:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing out equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Mar 2 13:57:35 2023 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 12:57:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c16b212-e938-7312-1225-3893c8ef1084@sindelarsolar.com> Kris, It was SqD QO403, and it was a 3-pole load center/disconnect, not 4-pole. You may recall that the dual-inverter Trace Power Panels of long ago used two of these, each one serving as an inverter bypass switch to one 120V AC leg. On 3/2/2023 11:46 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a > Radian WITHOUT  the companion load center.  I would like to add an > inverter bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power.  > There used to be a 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch > preventing both breakers from being in the on position > simultaneously.  I have not been able to find it on the interweb.  > Anyone know of something out there that would meet my needs? > > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com (No longer) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional (Still) New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician (Retired) Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. (Retired) Founder, Sindelar Solar *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 2 18:21:35 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 16:21:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: <3c16b212-e938-7312-1225-3893c8ef1084@sindelarsolar.com> References: <3c16b212-e938-7312-1225-3893c8ef1084@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: I probably still have one of the old QO boxes on the shelf, but I never liked them.  Single pole, very tight, and you had to double lug or use a weird split bolt arrangement with exposed copper out past the breaker. I started using these 60A T switches from Northern: https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200653609_200653609 Midnite makes small 30A and 60A T switches as well: https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=416&productCat_ID=29&sortOrder=3&act=p Ray Walters On 3/2/2023 11:57 AM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Kris, It was SqD QO403, and it was a 3-pole load center/disconnect, > not 4-pole. You may recall that the dual-inverter Trace Power Panels > of long ago used two of these, each one serving as an inverter bypass > switch to one 120V AC leg. > > On 3/2/2023 11:46 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to >> a Radian WITHOUT  the companion load center.  I would like to add an >> inverter bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power.  >> There used to be a 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch >> preventing both breakers from being in the on position >> simultaneously.  I have not been able to find it on the interweb.  >> Anyone know of something out there that would meet my needs? >> >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > > (No longer) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > (Still) New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > (Retired) Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. > (Retired) Founder, Sindelar Solar > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 20:10:20 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 20:10:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: <3c16b212-e938-7312-1225-3893c8ef1084@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Does anyone know of any bypass switch/breaker setup for anything greater than 60 amps for 2 poles, other than large DPDT switches which get pricey and hard to source especially for 200 amps? Howie On Thu, Mar 2, 2023, 6:23 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I probably still have one of the old QO boxes on the shelf, but I never > liked them. Single pole, very tight, and you had to double lug or use a > weird split bolt arrangement with exposed copper out past the breaker. > > I started using these 60A T switches from Northern: > > https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200653609_200653609 > > Midnite makes small 30A and 60A T switches as well: > > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=416&productCat_ID=29&sortOrder=3&act=p > > Ray Walters > On 3/2/2023 11:57 AM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Kris, It was SqD QO403, and it was a 3-pole load center/disconnect, not > 4-pole. You may recall that the dual-inverter Trace Power Panels of long > ago used two of these, each one serving as an inverter bypass switch to one > 120V AC leg. > > On 3/2/2023 11:46 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a > Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter > bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a > 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers > from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find > it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my > needs? > > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > (No longer) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > (Still) New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > (Retired) Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. > (Retired) Founder, Sindelar Solar > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 20:39:44 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 20:39:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: <3c16b212-e938-7312-1225-3893c8ef1084@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Howie, I use the QO612 small breaker box with two double pole breakers and the QO2DTI toggle. John Blittersdorf On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 8:11 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone know of any bypass switch/breaker setup for anything greater > than 60 amps for 2 poles, other than large DPDT switches which get pricey > and hard to source especially for 200 amps? > Howie > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023, 6:23 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I probably still have one of the old QO boxes on the shelf, but I never >> liked them. Single pole, very tight, and you had to double lug or use a >> weird split bolt arrangement with exposed copper out past the breaker. >> >> I started using these 60A T switches from Northern: >> >> https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200653609_200653609 >> >> Midnite makes small 30A and 60A T switches as well: >> >> >> https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=416&productCat_ID=29&sortOrder=3&act=p >> >> Ray Walters >> On 3/2/2023 11:57 AM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Kris, It was SqD QO403, and it was a 3-pole load center/disconnect, not >> 4-pole. You may recall that the dual-inverter Trace Power Panels of long >> ago used two of these, each one serving as an inverter bypass switch to one >> 120V AC leg. >> >> On 3/2/2023 11:46 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a >> Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter >> bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a >> 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers >> from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find >> it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my >> needs? >> >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> >> Luck, WI 54853 >> >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> (No longer) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> (Still) New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> (Retired) Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. >> (Retired) Founder, Sindelar Solar >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Thu Mar 2 20:58:13 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 19:58:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: <3c16b212-e938-7312-1225-3893c8ef1084@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the help and suggestions! Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Thu, Mar 2, 2023, 7:40 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Howie, > I use the QO612 small breaker box with two double pole breakers and the > QO2DTI toggle. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 8:11 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone know of any bypass switch/breaker setup for anything greater >> than 60 amps for 2 poles, other than large DPDT switches which get pricey >> and hard to source especially for 200 amps? >> Howie >> >> On Thu, Mar 2, 2023, 6:23 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I probably still have one of the old QO boxes on the shelf, but I never >>> liked them. Single pole, very tight, and you had to double lug or use a >>> weird split bolt arrangement with exposed copper out past the breaker. >>> >>> I started using these 60A T switches from Northern: >>> >>> https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200653609_200653609 >>> >>> Midnite makes small 30A and 60A T switches as well: >>> >>> >>> https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=416&productCat_ID=29&sortOrder=3&act=p >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> On 3/2/2023 11:57 AM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Kris, It was SqD QO403, and it was a 3-pole load center/disconnect, not >>> 4-pole. You may recall that the dual-inverter Trace Power Panels of long >>> ago used two of these, each one serving as an inverter bypass switch to one >>> 120V AC leg. >>> >>> On 3/2/2023 11:46 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a >>> Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter >>> bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a >>> 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers >>> from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find >>> it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my >>> needs? >>> >>> Kris >>> >>> >>> Shine On! >>> >>> Kris Schmid >>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>> 137 West 1st Avenue >>> >>> Luck, WI 54853 >>> >>> www.legacysolar.com >>> 715-653-4295 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>> BSEE >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> (No longer) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> (Still) New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> (Retired) Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. >>> (Retired) Founder, Sindelar Solar >>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 2 21:34:20 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 19:34:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: <3c16b212-e938-7312-1225-3893c8ef1084@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <1f898605-a804-ea42-ec86-a4fa8d8485d4@solarray.com> Here's a 100 amp version of the Reliance box.  Cheap, lots of room, easy to wire up, but NEMA 1. https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-TCA1006D/p1102.html On 3/2/2023 6:10 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone know of any bypass switch/breaker setup for anything > greater than 60 amps for 2 poles, other than large DPDT switches which > get pricey and hard to source especially for 200 amps? > Howie > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023, 6:23 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I probably still have one of the old QO boxes on the shelf, but I > never liked them.  Single pole, very tight, and you had to double > lug or use a weird split bolt arrangement with exposed copper out > past the breaker. > > I started using these 60A T switches from Northern: > > https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200653609_200653609 > > Midnite makes small 30A and 60A T switches as well: > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=416&productCat_ID=29&sortOrder=3&act=p > > > Ray Walters > > On 3/2/2023 11:57 AM, Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Kris, It was SqD QO403, and it was a 3-pole load >> center/disconnect, not 4-pole. You may recall that the >> dual-inverter Trace Power Panels of long ago used two of these, >> each one serving as an inverter bypass switch to one 120V AC leg. >> >> On 3/2/2023 11:46 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX >>> inverter to a Radian WITHOUT  the companion load center.  I >>> would like to add an inverter bypass circuit to operate the >>> house on generator power.  There used to be a 4 slot breaker >>> panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers >>> from being in the on position simultaneously.  I have not been >>> able to find it on the interweb.  Anyone know of something out >>> there that would meet my needs? >>> >>> Kris >>> >>> >>> Shine On! >>> >>> Kris Schmid >>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>> 137 West 1st Avenue >>> Luck, WI 54853 >>> www.legacysolar.com >>> 715-653-4295 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>> BSEE >>> >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> >> (No longer) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> (Still) New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> (Retired) Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. >> (Retired) Founder, Sindelar Solar >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 2 22:05:45 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 20:05:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60v Inverter? Message-ID: Hi all; I'm putting together a small backup system that will use an electric motorcycle battery (60 V, 35 AH, Li+) Normal charge voltage is at 67.2v, so that excludes most inverters I know of. I've found a few from China that claim 60v and 72v nominal input, but output is listed at 230vac, and the frequency is not listed at all.  They show universal Euro output receptacles.....and only available straight from China. Ideally I'd like a unit in the 1500 to 3000 watt range that I could program the input voltage range, but also the output frequency.  For other strange musical reasons, I want an inverter (or VFD) that I can fine tune the frequency output at 120 vac. I'd like something I could vary the output from 55 to 65 Hz in roughly 0.1 Hz increments. This could be the same inverter, or a different one.  I want to slow the frequency of a 1/4 Hp synchronous motor that is in an Hammond organ, so that I can tune the organ down from A=440 Hz to A =432 Hz to match an even older piano.........Yep, I'm living on the edge...... Ray Walters (Now Even More) Remote Solar From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Mar 2 23:36:49 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2023 20:36:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches It might be easier to use the wire cabinet for the radian, but hey thats just me On Thu, Mar 2, 2023, 9:47 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a > Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter > bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a > 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers > from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find > it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my > needs? > > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 3 08:06:04 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 06:06:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can also build them with the interlock kits for (almost) whatever load center you like. https://interlockkit.com/shop/ Some of these are UL listed, some are not. The disadvantage of this route is that they are typically made for a high ampacity main circuit breaker, probably overkill for most applications like this. On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 9:37 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > It might be easier to use the wire cabinet for the radian, but hey thats > just me > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023, 9:47 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a >> Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter >> bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a >> 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers >> from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find >> it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my >> needs? >> >> Kris >> >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Fri Mar 3 11:24:21 2023 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 08:24:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14F7B50A-0681-49AE-AB61-70EAA000B1F4@pacific.net> I have found this Electricenter accessory part # ECSBPK01. to be very useful with locally available load centers. labelled for Siemens and Murray. Fits well on Eaton tho not listed for that brand. Available locally for $32 or so lately. Does the same thing the Generac sub panel does for the price of the interlock only. For an image try: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-Standby-Power-Interlock-Kit-ECSBPK01/203197660#overlay > On Mar 2, 2023, at 9:46 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have a stand alone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my needs? > > Kris > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 3 11:41:58 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 08:41:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter bypass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484c18499e87249753b3053847efdfd8@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Interesting topic. Thanks to all for the various options. If we are going to support off-grid customers we insist they have a generator and bypass capabilities. We usually fabricate our own interlocks. Sure they are not UL listed, but no inspector has balked as of yet. Below is an example for a three inverter Radian system: William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 On Thu, Mar 2, 2023, 9:47 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi All, I have a standalone system that was upgraded from an FX inverter to a Radian WITHOUT the companion load center. I would like to add an inverter bypass circuit to operate the house on generator power. There used to be a 4 slot breaker panel (SqD?) with the rocker switch preventing both breakers from being in the on position simultaneously. I have not been able to find it on the interweb. Anyone know of something out there that would meet my needs? Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 201987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 3 11:46:06 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 08:46:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California NEM3 specific question Message-ID: To my Friends on the Wrenches forum: This is a question that likely can only be answered by a California based grid-tied contractor. The subject itself may be of more general interest as it is demonstrative of a trend that has dogged the industry and may be more prevalent in the future. The subject has many layers to discuss, but I have a very specific question: The new NEM3.0 legislation applies to current and future grid-tied customers connected to Investor Owned Utilities (IOU) in California. It specifies in part that when NEM3 takes effect on 4/14/23, all customers that are currently categorized as NEM1 and NEM2 keep their existing status for 20 years from date of system commission. After that 20 years these customers will be demoted to NEM3. The reality of NEM3 is that it sucks for customers. My home system was commissioned in October of 2003. That means that in eight months I will be forced into significantly worse terms for trading kWh with PG&E. It’s not just me-- we installed a lot of grid-tied systems in the early 2000s and I want to do what I can to protect my clients. I worry for all people that supported solar when it was much more expensive. This is really a sad result for early adopters. BTW, everyone is talking about the poor people that have yet to install solar but don’t want to get the future bad deal. The hidden story is this sunset provision. As I said above, this part seems pretty unfair. I called PG&E today and was told that there is no way to extend NEM1 or 2 status, short of removing all solar, having the roof inspected, and re-installing. So do any of you California wrenches know what options there are to keep NEM1 and NEM2 accounts off of NEM3? Any advice is appreciated. If you agree that this is a problem, spread the word and give your customers a heads up. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Mar 3 12:56:59 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 09:56:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California NEM3 specific question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not aware of any other option than completely removing and decommissioning the old PV system and installing a new system to lock in NEM2 for a new 20 year term. We are experiencing unprecedented demand for PV right now as people sign up to lock in under NEM2. There are a lot of nuances to getting our clients locked in so we've been working closely with CALSSA and PG&E to make sure we're following the rules the best we can. That said, the category of clients with old systems are some of the trickiest to deal with. It doesn't seem like PG&E's internal process is very well baked at this point. PG&E is holding some NEM2 webinars next week, so we continue to learn more. As far as NBT (Net Billing Tariff, formerly called NEM3) goes - there is no question it is a major step down for new PV-only projects. Projects with PV paired batteries may fare a bit better since they can be programmed to discharge and earn credits at higher rates. We are having a really hard time getting ESS permits in many Bay Area jurisdictions due to challenging fire code and fire code interpretation. That is really slowing us down. Anyway, there are a lot of challenges ahead but at the same time lots of opportunities! I for one have PV and a battery at my house and I love it, although I am benefitting from NEM2. Best, August Luminalt On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 8:49 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > To my Friends on the Wrenches forum: > > > > This is a question that likely can only be answered by a California based > grid-tied contractor. The subject itself may be of more general interest > as it is demonstrative of a trend that has dogged the industry and may be > more prevalent in the future. The subject has many layers to discuss, but > I have a very specific question: > > > > The new NEM3.0 legislation applies to current and future grid-tied > customers connected to Investor Owned Utilities (IOU) in California. It > specifies in part that when NEM3 takes effect on 4/14/23, all customers > that are currently categorized as NEM1 and NEM2 keep their existing status > for 20 years from date of system commission. After that 20 years these > customers will be demoted to NEM3. The reality of NEM3 is that it sucks > for customers. > > > > My home system was commissioned in October of 2003. That means that in > eight months I will be forced into significantly worse terms for trading > kWh with PG&E. It’s not just me-- we installed a lot of grid-tied systems > in the early 2000s and I want to do what I can to protect my clients. I > worry for all people that supported solar when it was much more expensive. > This is really a sad result for early adopters. > > > > BTW, everyone is talking about the poor people that have yet to install > solar but don’t want to get the future bad deal. The hidden story is this > sunset provision. As I said above, this part seems pretty unfair. > > > > I called PG&E today and was told that there is no way to extend NEM1 or 2 > status, short of removing all solar, having the roof inspected, and > re-installing. > > > > So do any of you California wrenches know what options there are to keep > NEM1 and NEM2 accounts off of NEM3? Any advice is appreciated. > > > > If you agree that this is a problem, spread the word and give your > customers a heads up. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Fri Mar 3 18:44:06 2023 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 15:44:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] California NEM3 specific question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1677887046.89761567@webmail.finestplanet.com> My 2005 yearly billing, net metering agreement with Pacific Power says nothing about it being only valid for 20 years. Todd On Friday, March 3, 2023 8:46am, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" said: To my Friends on the Wrenches forum: This is a question that likely can only be answered by a California based grid-tied contractor. The subject itself may be of more general interest as it is demonstrative of a trend that has dogged the industry and may be more prevalent in the future. The subject has many layers to discuss, but I have a very specific question: The new NEM3.0 legislation applies to current and future grid-tied customers connected to Investor Owned Utilities (IOU) in California. It specifies in part that when NEM3 takes effect on 4/14/23, all customers that are currently categorized as NEM1 and NEM2 keep their existing status for 20 years from date of system commission. After that 20 years these customers will be demoted to NEM3. The reality of NEM3 is that it sucks for customers. My home system was commissioned in October of 2003. That means that in eight months I will be forced into significantly worse terms for trading kWh with PG&E. It’s not just me-- we installed a lot of grid-tied systems in the early 2000s and I want to do what I can to protect my clients. I worry for all people that supported solar when it was much more expensive. This is really a sad result for early adopters. BTW, everyone is talking about the poor people that have yet to install solar but don’t want to get the future bad deal. The hidden story is this sunset provision. As I said above, this part seems pretty unfair. I called PG&E today and was told that there is no way to extend NEM1 or 2 status, short of removing all solar, having the roof inspected, and re-installing. So do any of you California wrenches know what options there are to keep NEM1 and NEM2 accounts off of NEM3? Any advice is appreciated. If you agree that this is a problem, spread the word and give your customers a heads up. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 [ www.millersolar.com ]( http://www.millersolar.com/ ) CA Lic. 773985 Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Mar 3 19:01:04 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 16:01:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California NEM3 specific question In-Reply-To: <1677887046.89761567@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1677887046.89761567@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Pacific power is not an investor owned utility. On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 3:44 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My 2005 yearly billing, net metering agreement with Pacific Power says > nothing about it being only valid for 20 years. > > > > Todd > > > > > > On Friday, March 3, 2023 8:46am, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > To my Friends on the Wrenches forum: > > > > This is a question that likely can only be answered by a California based > grid-tied contractor. The subject itself may be of more general interest > as it is demonstrative of a trend that has dogged the industry and may be > more prevalent in the future. The subject has many layers to discuss, but > I have a very specific question: > > > > The new NEM3.0 legislation applies to current and future grid-tied > customers connected to Investor Owned Utilities (IOU) in California. It > specifies in part that when NEM3 takes effect on 4/14/23, all customers > that are currently categorized as NEM1 and NEM2 keep their existing status > for 20 years from date of system commission. After that 20 years these > customers will be demoted to NEM3. The reality of NEM3 is that it sucks > for customers. > > > > My home system was commissioned in October of 2003. That means that in > eight months I will be forced into significantly worse terms for trading > kWh with PG&E. It’s not just me-- we installed a lot of grid-tied systems > in the early 2000s and I want to do what I can to protect my clients. I > worry for all people that supported solar when it was much more expensive. > This is really a sad result for early adopters. > > > > BTW, everyone is talking about the poor people that have yet to install > solar but don’t want to get the future bad deal. The hidden story is this > sunset provision. As I said above, this part seems pretty unfair. > > > > I called PG&E today and was told that there is no way to extend NEM1 or 2 > status, short of removing all solar, having the roof inspected, and > re-installing. > > > > So do any of you California wrenches know what options there are to keep > NEM1 and NEM2 accounts off of NEM3? Any advice is appreciated. > > > > If you agree that this is a problem, spread the word and give your > customers a heads up. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Mar 3 19:01:48 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2023 16:01:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California NEM3 specific question In-Reply-To: <1677887046.89761567@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1677887046.89761567@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: The NEM2 / NBT transition is only mandated for the three investor-owned utilities in California. Other privately or municipally owned utilities play by their own rules - I believe there are several such as Palo Alto, SMUD, Alameda Municipal Power, LADWP, etc that aren't necessarily changing their rules at this time or may have already changed their rules over time. August On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 3:44 PM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My 2005 yearly billing, net metering agreement with Pacific Power says > nothing about it being only valid for 20 years. > > > > Todd > > > > > > On Friday, March 3, 2023 8:46am, "William Miller via RE-wrenches" < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> said: > > To my Friends on the Wrenches forum: > > > > This is a question that likely can only be answered by a California based > grid-tied contractor. The subject itself may be of more general interest > as it is demonstrative of a trend that has dogged the industry and may be > more prevalent in the future. The subject has many layers to discuss, but > I have a very specific question: > > > > The new NEM3.0 legislation applies to current and future grid-tied > customers connected to Investor Owned Utilities (IOU) in California. It > specifies in part that when NEM3 takes effect on 4/14/23, all customers > that are currently categorized as NEM1 and NEM2 keep their existing status > for 20 years from date of system commission. After that 20 years these > customers will be demoted to NEM3. The reality of NEM3 is that it sucks > for customers. > > > > My home system was commissioned in October of 2003. That means that in > eight months I will be forced into significantly worse terms for trading > kWh with PG&E. It’s not just me-- we installed a lot of grid-tied systems > in the early 2000s and I want to do what I can to protect my clients. I > worry for all people that supported solar when it was much more expensive. > This is really a sad result for early adopters. > > > > BTW, everyone is talking about the poor people that have yet to install > solar but don’t want to get the future bad deal. The hidden story is this > sunset provision. As I said above, this part seems pretty unfair. > > > > I called PG&E today and was told that there is no way to extend NEM1 or 2 > status, short of removing all solar, having the roof inspected, and > re-installing. > > > > So do any of you California wrenches know what options there are to keep > NEM1 and NEM2 accounts off of NEM3? Any advice is appreciated. > > > > If you agree that this is a problem, spread the word and give your > customers a heads up. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Mar 4 12:06:46 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2023 12:06:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hydrogen and storage education Message-ID: Hello, Anyone out there have suggestions for an online education on this subject? A primo customer of mine wants to incorporate hydro somehow into a large PV + LFP system. I've looked at Heatspring offerings but really want something of nuts and bolts design & installation style. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atersol at gmail.com Sat Mar 4 16:59:55 2023 From: atersol at gmail.com (Antony Tersol) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2023 13:59:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] California NEM3 specific question Message-ID: In the early days of California net metering, PGE distributed the net metering agreement as pdfs that were scans of printouts of the forms, meaning essentially that each page was an image, and short of using image-to-text software, one couldn't extract from, nor do a search on, the text. This meant that (in the days of dialup internet), the forms were large and slow to download. To automate fill-out with client info (instead of printing our PGE's forms and hand-writing them) I copied word-by-word the the official forms. This discussion prompted me to look for them. The net metering agreement says on the last page: 12. TERM OF AGREEMENT This Agreement shall become effective as of the last date set forth in Section 5 of the Declarations and shall continue in full force and effect until terminated by either Party providing 30-days prior written notice to the other Party in accordance with Section 11. This Agreement may be terminated prior to 30 days notice by agreement of both Parties. 13. GOVERNING AUTHORITY This contract shall at all times be subject to such changes or modification by the Public Utilities Commission of the State of California as said Commission may, from time to time, direct in the exercise of its jurisdiction. I have attached an .rtf (rich text format) version if interested. Antony Tersol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: E79-854_template.rtf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 24247 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Mar 7 11:19:16 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 11:19:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric on LiFe Blue Message-ID: <49220a23927c5fb2636b7b2a382c12c7@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Lithium Battery Wrenches, A 48 V bank of 8, 12 V LiFe Blue batteries, 2 series sets of four in parallel, for a 400 AH bank, is being monitored by a Trimetric 2020. What should the "charged setpoint amps" be set to? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From jay at nunatakenergy.com Tue Mar 7 12:43:11 2023 From: jay at nunatakenergy.com (Jay Pozner) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 10:43:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clearing out equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, You can contact Rich Stromberg at Equitable Solar Solutions in Gunnison CO. He has made the mission of the organization to repurpose old PV gear. Here is the website: https://www.coldharbourinstitute.org/equitable-solar-solutions.html Let me know if you still can't contact him, and I will make a direct connection. Thanks for giving back! Jay Jay Pozner (970) 642-5554 www.nunatakenergy.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer: Cert.#031310-177 On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 10:37 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've begun the process of clearing out my solar inventory as I reach the > age equivalent of a junk yard. Reclaimed modules with plenty of life have > found homes. I have quite a few older PV Power (5), Fronius (2) old non > arc fault "new inverters", and all the usual suspects of miscellaneous > equipment. Has anyone ideas on how to distribute them to interested people? > I don't want any money for them, but pay for shipping or ferry freight. > I was thinking a community solar project, but we need new local utility > management and board people to achieve that. Thanks for any advice. Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 7 16:43:53 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 14:43:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trimetric on LiFe Blue In-Reply-To: <49220a23927c5fb2636b7b2a382c12c7@redwoodalliance.org> References: <49220a23927c5fb2636b7b2a382c12c7@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake I’ve had success with amps turned off. Jay > On Mar 7, 2023, at 9:20 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Lithium Battery Wrenches, > > A 48 V bank of 8, 12 V LiFe Blue batteries, 2 series sets of four in parallel, for a 400 AH bank, is being monitored by a Trimetric 2020. > > What should the "charged setpoint amps" be set to? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Mar 7 18:15:37 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2023 23:15:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Service rated line taps Message-ID: hello does anyone know of a source for service rated line side piercing connectors? 200A rated Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Mar 8 10:31:24 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 09:31:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters Message-ID: Hi wrenches, In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that stumped me. At night, will the light from the flames or the fire fighters' flood lights energize the array to a dangerous potential? Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Mar 8 10:38:29 2023 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:38:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kris, This UL testing report covers firefighting lighting on PV https://fsri.org/research-update/firefighter-safety-and-photovoltaic-systems-summary-released Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 10:31:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kristopher Schmid Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters Hi wrenches, In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that stumped me. At night, will the light from the flames or the fire fighters' flood lights energize the array to a dangerous potential? Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Mar 8 11:35:37 2023 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 08:35:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP Message-ID: Aloha all, Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV systems (including energy storage) fare under conditions of electromagnetic pulses and solar flares? Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Mar 8 11:49:37 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2023 11:49:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP Message-ID: I would review Sol Arks website as they say they are immune. Probably have something to back that up published there.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenchesDate: Wed, Mar 8, 2023 11:37 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Marco Mangelsdorf;Subject:[RE-wrenches] PV and EMPAloha all, Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV systems (including energy storage) fare under conditions of electromagnetic pulses and solar flares?Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Mar 8 12:32:46 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:32:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a8ef4d4-40d9-5450-ea2d-f4d2eaa4b491@entech-engineering.com> They can generate enough illumination to have the module(s) reach ~ Voc. On 3/8/2023 10:31 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that > stumped me.  At night, will the light from the flames or the fire > fighters' flood lights energize the array to a dangerous potential? > > Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome. > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Mar 8 12:43:58 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 10:43:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters In-Reply-To: <3a8ef4d4-40d9-5450-ea2d-f4d2eaa4b491@entech-engineering.com> References: <3a8ef4d4-40d9-5450-ea2d-f4d2eaa4b491@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <827360fb-3bbb-0f53-46c9-fef2581481dc@midnitesolar.com> I believe that kind of  illumination  could certainly put out some voltage but wouldn't have much, if any, current or power behind it.  But could shock someone. Any dangerous energy would have to come from a capacitor being charged up that SHOULD be disconnected through the rapid shutdown system at that point.  And it would have to have the light shining on it for quite a while to rack up any watt-hours. 🌜boB🌛 On 3/8/2023 10:32 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > They can generate enough illumination to have the module(s) reach ~ Voc. > > On 3/8/2023 10:31 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Hi wrenches, >> >> In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that >> stumped me.  At night, will the light from the flames or the fire >> fighters' flood lights energize the array to a dangerous potential? >> >> Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome. >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- >                 Christopher Warfel >                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                                 401-466-8978 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Mar 8 14:29:47 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:29:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters In-Reply-To: <827360fb-3bbb-0f53-46c9-fef2581481dc@midnitesolar.com> References: <3a8ef4d4-40d9-5450-ea2d-f4d2eaa4b491@entech-engineering.com> <827360fb-3bbb-0f53-46c9-fef2581481dc@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Well, turns out there might actually be something to bright scene lighting enabling some power output during a fire at night. Here is one paper from San Francisco. http://ufsw.org/pdfs/photovoltaic_systems.pdf However, firefighters have particular safeguards they should follow day or night. The present day lighting may not have enough light energy to be a problem but that doesn't matter. Still have to play it safe.   I have not seen any facts and figures but I may just have some firefighter friends let me take a PV module and illuminate it to test there when I get back up north. I think it would be a good experiment at least. 🌜boB🌛 🌜boB🌛 On 3/8/2023 10:43 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > I believe that kind of  illumination  could certainly put out some voltage > but wouldn't have much, if any, current or power behind it.  But could > shock someone. > > Any dangerous energy would have to come from a capacitor being charged > up that SHOULD be disconnected > through the rapid shutdown system at that point.  And it would have to > have the light shining on it for quite > a while to rack up any watt-hours. > > 🌜boB🌛 > On 3/8/2023 10:32 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> They can generate enough illumination to have the module(s) reach ~ Voc. >> >> On 3/8/2023 10:31 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> Hi wrenches, >>> >>> In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that >>> stumped me.  At night, will the light from the flames or the fire >>> fighters' flood lights energize the array to a dangerous potential? >>> >>> Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome. >>> >>> Shine On! >>> >>> Kris Schmid >>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>> 137 West 1st Avenue >>> Luck, WI 54853 >>> www.legacysolar.com >>> 715-653-4295 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>> BSEE >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >>                 Christopher Warfel >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                                     401-466-8978 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 8 16:13:39 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:13:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello the answer is yes. On a job several years ago to finish I worked after dark. It was a full moon, and a street light was nearby I got bit from a 500 Voc module string. I am sure I did not have 500 V but it only takes 20 ma. To be deadly. I did not get my volt ohm meter out but I should have. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 9:34 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi wrenches, > > In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that stumped > me. At night, will the light from the flames or the fire fighters' flood > lights energize the array to a dangerous potential? > > Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome. > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 8 16:31:04 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 14:31:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <943E0B48-59F2-4519-B26F-D72947EEB6E8@starlightsolar.com> To all techies, what if a bleeder resister, similar to what is used on a capacitor, was in parallel with the PV strings or array? That should pull down any high voltage from a low illuminance light source. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello the answer is yes. On a job several years ago to finish I worked after dark. It was a full moon, and a street light was nearby I got bit from a 500 Voc module string. I am sure I did not have 500 V but it only takes 20 ma. To be deadly. I did not get my volt ohm meter out but I should have. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 9:34 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi wrenches, In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that stumped me. At night, will the light from the flames or the fire fighters' flood lights energize the array to a dangerous potential? Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Mar 9 09:14:18 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 09:14:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Voltage Rise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi All, Just thought I'd follow up here. Turns out the transformer was rated at 10kva. (remember, this system has three 7.7kw inverters...) We were able to get the utility to come out and put in a 25kVa transformer, and the voltage rise is now way more in line with what we would expect. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 1:36 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > The customer has already had the utility come out to take a look. He says > they had him turn off the solar, and then they measured 246V at the > transformer and then said it's not their problem. He was going to try to > get them back out to check the connections at the transformer and the > meter. > Also, that's a good suggestion to check each leg separately to see if > maybe there is only one line that has a bad connection. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 1:33 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, Dave >> I have had this issue, first turn off everything, check static voltage, >> this will drive everything else. If the static is 240 L-L look at the >> utility side you might have small conductors, you might also have a >> transformer size issue bottlenecking the current. Next turn loads more the >> better watch if there is a drop and how much. Now turn off everything and >> power up the solar again watch the voltage at the meter if it climbs up and >> close to limit it might be the feeders. It's all process of elimination. >> Lots of fun >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 9:03 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I've got a customer who is having issues with high voltage at their >>> house. This first became an issue after installing 23.1kw of AC solar >>> output. They have some GREE heat pumps which have been having some >>> failures. The heat pump people are saying that the problem is that the >>> voltage is above 252V. >>> >>> The grid voltage was measured at 246V with the solar off, and 260V with >>> the solar cranking. The inverters are within 10' of the MSP where there is >>> a line side connection. Then there is 4/0 AL cable which has to go roughly >>> 175' before it reaches the transformer. At 246V and 92A, there should only >>> be about a 3.6V rise, or maybe 4V including the wire from the inverters to >>> the combiner to the MSP. Yet somehow there is about 14V of rise. >>> >>> The service entrance cable is buried. It is in conduit where it goes >>> into and out of the ground, but I have no idea whether there is conduit for >>> most of the run underground. Maybe there is a nick in the cable underground >>> which has caused corrosion? Does anyone have any ideas of how to find the >>> cause of the increased resistance? I should go back out there with an IR >>> camera to check the connections that I can at least get to in the house. >>> >>> I have suggested that they install a buck/boost transformer on the heat >>> pump circuits to bring down the voltage a little bit. But they are also >>> concerned about the high voltage causing issues with other electrical >>> appliances in the house. Does anyone have any anecdata to show whether >>> there are other hidden issues if the house is at 260V during times of high >>> solar production? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Mar 9 12:09:35 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 12:09:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50e732d1721b298c18cf2f87ea45c560@redwoodalliance.org> Backwoods Solar sells kits to harden against EMP. I am wondering how effective they would be. Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-03-08 11:49, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > I would review Sol Arks website as they say they are immune. Probably have something to back that up published there. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches > Date: Wed, Mar 8, 2023 11:37 AM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Marco Mangelsdorf; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] PV and EMP > Aloha all, > > Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV systems (including energy storage) fare under conditions of electromagnetic pulses and solar flares? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Mar 9 12:58:31 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:58:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP In-Reply-To: <50e732d1721b298c18cf2f87ea45c560@redwoodalliance.org> References: <50e732d1721b298c18cf2f87ea45c560@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <0b1b1ab84c5dc6dd30ef4990cad8695d@sti.net> Depends on how close and how strong the pulse or strike is. In Mil satellites, the same thing. You can harden but are dreaming if you think your electronics can really survive it. Even harder to protect electronics that are powered on. The KH series spy sats I saw schematics for had redundant systems that were off or rotated I seem to remember. This was back in the 90's so very sketchy in the fog of time. For Offgrid, and High Rel power systems, a faraday cage for your inverter and CC is a must if you are in high lightning zone. A top of a mountain is often really hard on a house or Telcom. One place I have blows SPD's yearly. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-03-09 9:09 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Backwoods Solar sells kits to harden against EMP. I am wondering how > effective they would be. > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2023-03-08 11:49, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I would review Sol Arks website as they say they are immune. Probably >> have something to back that up published there. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches >> Date: Wed, Mar 8, 2023 11:37 AM >> To: RE-wrenches; >> Cc: Marco Mangelsdorf; >> Subject:[RE-wrenches] PV and EMP >> Aloha all, >> >> Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV >> systems (including energy storage) fare under conditions of >> electromagnetic pulses and solar flares? >> >> Mahalo, >> marco >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Mar 9 13:18:48 2023 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 10:18:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP In-Reply-To: <0b1b1ab84c5dc6dd30ef4990cad8695d@sti.net> References: <50e732d1721b298c18cf2f87ea45c560@redwoodalliance.org> <0b1b1ab84c5dc6dd30ef4990cad8695d@sti.net> Message-ID: Hmmm...I wonder how much SolArk is dreaming. https://www.sol-ark.com/e-m-p/ On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 9:58 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Depends on how close and how strong the pulse or strike is. In Mil > satellites, the same thing. You can harden but are dreaming if you think > your electronics can really survive it. Even harder to protect electronics > that are powered on. The KH series spy sats I saw schematics for had > redundant systems that were off or rotated I seem to remember. This was > back in the 90's so very sketchy in the fog of time. > > For Offgrid, and High Rel power systems, a faraday cage for your inverter > and CC is a must if you are in high lightning zone. A top of a mountain is > often really hard on a house or Telcom. One place I have blows SPD's > yearly. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-03-09 9:09 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Backwoods Solar sells kits to harden against EMP. I am wondering how > effective they would be. > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > --- > > > > On 2023-03-08 11:49, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I would review Sol Arks website as they say they are immune. Probably have > something to back that up published there. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Wed, Mar 8, 2023 11:37 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Marco Mangelsdorf; > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] PV and EMP > > Aloha all, > > Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV systems > (including energy storage) fare under conditions of electromagnetic pulses > and solar flares? > > Mahalo, > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Mar 9 14:39:20 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:39:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP In-Reply-To: References: <50e732d1721b298c18cf2f87ea45c560@redwoodalliance.org> <0b1b1ab84c5dc6dd30ef4990cad8695d@sti.net> Message-ID: Right Dave. The VooDoo of EMI filtering, lightning protection or EMP induced voltage reduction attempts are similar and governed by the inverse square law. How much energy and how close is it? You must properly reduce energy propagation at every point. I have seen very expensive protection systems with poor implementation making the entire scheme useless. So, is the cost and effort worth the results? Study, then study more. It may be more cost effective to have a back part rather than spending money on an expensive preventative measure. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: Hmmm...I wonder how much SolArk is dreaming. https://www.sol-ark.com/e-m-p/ On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 9:58 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Depends on how close and how strong the pulse or strike is. In Mil satellites, the same thing. You can harden but are dreaming if you think your electronics can really survive it. Even harder to protect electronics that are powered on. The KH series spy sats I saw schematics for had redundant systems that were off or rotated I seem to remember. This was back in the 90's so very sketchy in the fog of time. For Offgrid, and High Rel power systems, a faraday cage for your inverter and CC is a must if you are in high lightning zone. A top of a mountain is often really hard on a house or Telcom. One place I have blows SPD's yearly. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-03-09 9:09 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Backwoods Solar sells kits to harden against EMP. I am wondering how effective they would be. > > Drake > > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > --- > > > > On 2023-03-08 11:49, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I would review Sol Arks website as they say they are immune. Probably have something to back that up published there. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches > Date: Wed, Mar 8, 2023 11:37 AM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Marco Mangelsdorf; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] PV and EMP > > Aloha all, > > Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV systems (including energy storage) fare under conditions of electromagnetic pulses and solar flares? > > Mahalo, > marco > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 9 15:03:21 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 13:03:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP In-Reply-To: References: <50e732d1721b298c18cf2f87ea45c560@redwoodalliance.org> <0b1b1ab84c5dc6dd30ef4990cad8695d@sti.net> Message-ID: <8e76e43c-5091-d600-1b0c-d99bf1df0ea1@solarray.com> I'm not an EMP expert by any means, but I've dealt with quite a few lightning damaged systems.  Having a good connection to a low impedance grounding system (steel cased well, Ufer ground) is crucial.  I also have had fantastic luck with Midnite's MNSPD line.  Delta, not so much. On 3/9/2023 12:39 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Right Dave. The VooDoo of EMI filtering, lightning protection or EMP > induced voltage reduction attempts are similar and governed by the > inverse square law. How much energy and how close is it? You must > properly reduce energy propagation _at every point._ I have seen very > expensive protection systems with poor implementation making the > entire scheme useless.  So, is the cost and effort worth the results? > Study, then study more. It may be more cost effective to have a back > part rather than spending money on an expensive preventative measure. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hmmm...I wonder how much SolArk is dreaming. > https://www.sol-ark.com/e-m-p/ > > On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 9:58 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Depends on how close and how strong the pulse or strike is. In Mil > satellites, the same thing. You can harden but are dreaming if you > think your electronics can really survive it. Even harder to > protect electronics that are powered on. The KH series spy sats I > saw schematics for had redundant systems that were off or rotated > I seem to remember. This was back in the 90's so very sketchy in > the fog of time. > For Offgrid, and High Rel power systems, a faraday cage for your > inverter and CC is a must if you are in high lightning zone. A top > of a mountain is often really hard on a house or Telcom. One place > I have blows SPD's yearly. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-03-09 9:09 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Backwoods Solar sells kits to harden against EMP. I am wondering >> how effective they would be. >> >> Drake >> >> >> /Drake Chamberlin/ >> >> /Athens Electric LLC/ >> >> /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ >> >> /CO Master Electrician’s License 4526/ >> >> /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2023-03-08 11:49, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I would review Sol Arks website as they say they are immune. >> Probably have something to back that up published there. >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and >> spelling errors. >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches >> *Date: *Wed, Mar 8, 2023 11:37 AM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: *Marco Mangelsdorf; >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] PV and EMP >> Aloha all, >> Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on >> how PV systems (including energy storage) fare under >> conditions of electromagnetic pulses and solar flares? >> Mahalo, >> marco >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 10 16:44:09 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:44:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP In-Reply-To: <8e76e43c-5091-d600-1b0c-d99bf1df0ea1@solarray.com> References: <50e732d1721b298c18cf2f87ea45c560@redwoodalliance.org> <0b1b1ab84c5dc6dd30ef4990cad8695d@sti.net> <8e76e43c-5091-d600-1b0c-d99bf1df0ea1@solarray.com> Message-ID: <596678af4e39a58a3bbacfbdbc5a9061@sti.net> Good Grounds, SPD's, Luck, and Prayer. Cheers Friday ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-03-09 12:03 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > I'm not an EMP expert by any means, but I've dealt with quite a few > lightning damaged systems. Having a good connection to a low impedance > grounding system (steel cased well, Ufer ground) is crucial. I also > have had fantastic luck with Midnite's MNSPD line. Delta, not so much. > > On 3/9/2023 12:39 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Right Dave. The VooDoo of EMI filtering, lightning protection or EMP > induced voltage reduction attempts are similar and governed by the > inverse square law. How much energy and how close is it? You must > properly reduce energy propagation at every point. I have seen very > expensive protection systems with poor implementation making the entire > scheme useless. So, is the cost and effort worth the results? Study, > then study more. It may be more cost effective to have a back part > rather than spending money on an expensive preventative measure. > Larry Crutcher > > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hmmm...I wonder how much SolArk is dreaming. > https://www.sol-ark.com/e-m-p/ > > On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 9:58 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Depends on how close and how strong the pulse or strike is. In Mil > satellites, the same thing. You can harden but are dreaming if you > think your electronics can really survive it. Even harder to protect > electronics that are powered on. The KH series spy sats I saw > schematics for had redundant systems that were off or rotated I seem to > remember. This was back in the 90's so very sketchy in the fog of time. > > For Offgrid, and High Rel power systems, a faraday cage for your > inverter and CC is a must if you are in high lightning zone. A top of a > mountain is often really hard on a house or Telcom. One place I have > blows SPD's yearly. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2023-03-09 9:09 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Backwoods Solar sells kits to harden against EMP. I am wondering how > effective they would be. > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2023-03-08 11:49, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I would review Sol Arks website as they say they are immune. Probably > have something to back that up published there. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches > Date: Wed, Mar 8, 2023 11:37 AM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Marco Mangelsdorf; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] PV and EMP > Aloha all, > > Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV > systems (including energy storage) fare under conditions of > electromagnetic pulses and solar flares? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org/ [2] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 17:30:43 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 16:30:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It depends upon the pulse. It you are referring to a an EMP caused by a solar storm this is hard on large electrical grids. No problem on Solar equipment. The voltage current is Ndf/dt number of turns times rate of change of flux, the grid can collapse but if you disconnect from grid (multimode inverter) and surge suppressor on grid side you should be ok. As it is there are transformers that get destroyed by solar flares On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 10:36 AM Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha all, > > Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV systems > (including energy storage) fare under conditions of electromagnetic pulses > and solar flares? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Mar 10 20:21:34 2023 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 17:21:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PID and iLumen Message-ID: Hi all, Have any of you sourced this device (see attached) from any U.S. distributor? It's used to be able to match old-style positive-grounded SunPower modules with transformerless inverters and avoid the performance-robbing surface polarization effect. I was in contact with the manufacturer, iLumen, in Belgium and could purchase them in quantity from them. But I don't want to buy a dozen of them. And SunPower (what's left of it), isn't interested in purchasing them in bulk and reselling them to their loyal channel partners. Effectively their message is: it's your problem, deal with it. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ilumen-PID-Box-Mini installation manual v1.95-ENG-1.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 993878 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robertnuese at sonic.net Mon Mar 13 12:32:09 2023 From: robertnuese at sonic.net (Robert Nuese) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 09:32:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electrical Stock - Cheap Message-ID: <5621E18C-7DE4-483E-B4ED-75488EFAA499@sonic.net> Hello Fellow PVers, It’s struck me that I need to stop carrying solar equipment onto roofs, and crawling in crawlspaces, before I fall off, or can’t crawl out. I’m going to try to make a living with SLD drawing, consulting, etc. So I’m getting rid of a storage unit full of 22 years of electrical parts. Cheap. Conduit fittings. Wire. Odds. Ends. No modules or working inverters. Much of it mint - for very cheap. Some not so mint for super cheap or free. So if you are anywhere near Healdsburg CA, you might benefit. Please contact be off-list. robertnuese at sonic.net or (707) 738-2973 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org Mon Mar 13 13:59:26 2023 From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 10:59:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin post: equipment available reminder Message-ID: <1678730395388.7408d1f064960a59@redwoodalliance.org> Hi folks. Contact me off list if you have any questions or concerns. This is our occasional reminder not to offer equipment on the Wrench List. Like posting jobs and referrals, it is considered off-topic. All those are allowed on the RE-Markets list. But note that the Markets list membership is comprised of more than Wrench list members. From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon Mar 13 15:07:47 2023 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 12:07:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin post: equipment available reminder In-Reply-To: <1678730395388.7408d1f064960a59@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1678730395388.7408d1f064960a59@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1678734475460.5a03f76c421053f0@re-wrenches.org> Hi again, Wrenches. I should have included this in my last admin email: It is totally fine to ask the list for specific pieces of equipment that you might need. You never can tell what kind of old stock Wrench members might have around. Suggest something like this: Subject: Needed, 2 Canadian Solar PV modules Text: Looking for 2 Canadian Solar Bifacial 635 W PV modules to replace hail-damaged modules. Supplier no longer has them in stock. Please contact me off-list if you can help. Michael Welch via RE-wrenches wrote at 10:59 AM 3/13/2023: >Hi folks. Contact me off list if you have any questions or concerns. > >This is our occasional reminder not to offer equipment on the Wrench List. Like posting jobs and referrals, it is considered off-topic. > >All those are allowed on the RE-Markets list. But note that the Markets list membership is comprised of more than Wrench list members. > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 15:47:39 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:47:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control Message-ID: <29BF48C8-37CE-426F-A4B3-2C0A5481C70D@gmail.com> Hi all Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay? Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex pump, only a dry dpst contact is required. Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that one could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. Thanks Jay From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 13 16:08:26 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:08:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control In-Reply-To: <29BF48C8-37CE-426F-A4B3-2C0A5481C70D@gmail.com> References: <29BF48C8-37CE-426F-A4B3-2C0A5481C70D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3bdc3641b1c278adf735c865311eb935@mail.gmail.com> Jay: Control by Web. The hardware is robust. You can write code or use built-in functions. There is a smart-pone app or you can interface by browser. Here is a link to a job we did with CBW equipment. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 13, 2023 12:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control Hi all Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay? Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex pump, only a dry dpst contact is required. Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that one could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. Thanks Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 13 16:22:24 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:22:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control In-Reply-To: <29BF48C8-37CE-426F-A4B3-2C0A5481C70D@gmail.com> References: <29BF48C8-37CE-426F-A4B3-2C0A5481C70D@gmail.com> Message-ID: https://www.amazon.com/Solenoid-Control-Wireless-Contact-T-Mobile/dp/B07Q7PKW5Z?th=1 Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 13, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi all Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay? Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex pump, only a dry dpst contact is required. Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that one could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. Thanks Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 16:34:38 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:34:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control In-Reply-To: References: <29BF48C8-37CE-426F-A4B3-2C0A5481C70D@gmail.com> Message-ID: WebRelay. I use one to turn off my WEEDS (Wind Enabled Ember Dousing System) sprinkler system via a 12V solenoid On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 1:22 PM Starlight via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > https://www.amazon.com/Solenoid-Control-Wireless-Contact-T-Mobile/dp/B07Q7PKW5Z?th=1 > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Mar 13, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi all > > Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay? > > Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. > I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex pump, only a dry dpst > contact is required. > > Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that one > could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 19:32:39 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:32:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control Message-ID: <4FB1118E-2A58-49A5-B9FB-45848539E8AC@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Mar 13 21:37:02 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 19:37:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control In-Reply-To: References: <29BF48C8-37CE-426F-A4B3-2C0A5481C70D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Michael; Can you share more about your sprinkler system and the power supply for it?  Over the years, at least two of my customers have lost their homes (and PV arrays) in wild fires. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/13/2023 2:34 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > WebRelay. I use one to turn off my WEEDS (Wind Enabled Ember Dousing > System) sprinkler system via a 12V solenoid > > On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 1:22 PM Starlight via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > https://www.amazon.com/Solenoid-Control-Wireless-Contact-T-Mobile/dp/B07Q7PKW5Z?th=1 > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Mar 13, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi all > > Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay? > > Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. > I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex  pump, only a dry > dpst contact is required. > > Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so > that one could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. > > Thanks > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 22:32:54 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 19:32:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control In-Reply-To: References: <29BF48C8-37CE-426F-A4B3-2C0A5481C70D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sure thing. Todd Cory turned me on to this. Thanks Todd! chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/ https://www.7thgenerationdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/fire-WEEDS.pdf I spaced sprayers 3' from corners, and then every 8' My hydro penstock feeds 10K gallons of buried concrete cisterns that sit 400' above my home. They supply the WEEDS system. When the system is activated, it uses about 30GPM. I also have a diesel water pump that drafts off of a year round creek that will "backfeed" the water supply. It is activated by a WebRelay also. Each year I invite our local wildland fire crews up and get them familiarized with the system (It can be manually actuated) and the locations of two other steel 10K tanks w/ hose reels, situated by our shops. I also have cell phone surveillance cameras, one on a mountain above us that is dialed into our drainage, and one looking out the rear door, where a fire would be coming from. This is so that if I'm out in the field and a fire takes off, either myself, family, friends, or neighbors that get notice of a fire can take a look at the camera feeds and start the system if need be. It's a sight to behold. The entire house is enveloped in a vertical wall of water. I'm including a picture showing the line circling the eaves. Not shown, are the 6" brass nipples w/ shrub heads which I was reinstalling last Spring. I remove them each fall so snow doesn't tear them off. Pro tip: There are only two manufacturers of brass shrub sprayers that offer a flat 360 pattern. Arrow and Orbit. The Orbit's are garbage. [image: sprinkler Small.jpeg] On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 6:37 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Michael; > > Can you share more about your sprinkler system and the power supply for > it? Over the years, at least two of my customers have lost their homes > (and PV arrays) in wild fires. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 3/13/2023 2:34 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > WebRelay. I use one to turn off my WEEDS (Wind Enabled Ember Dousing > System) sprinkler system via a 12V solenoid > > On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 1:22 PM Starlight via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Solenoid-Control-Wireless-Contact-T-Mobile/dp/B07Q7PKW5Z?th=1 >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 13, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi all >> >> Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay? >> >> Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. >> I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex pump, only a dry dpst >> contact is required. >> >> Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that >> one could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sprinkler Small.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28034 bytes Desc: not available URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Mar 14 12:03:04 2023 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 09:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control Message-ID: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> I can help with this as Michael built something similar to what I designed and installed in 2001: I plumbed small irrigation sprayers every ~15' around the perimeter of my buildings under the eaves. This wets down the perimeter of the structures, particularly the combustion zone where the building meets the ground. Roof mounted sprayers leave a vulnerable dry gap between the drip edge and the building. Under eave sprayers wet this area and the siding. I have 40 of these sprayers which maxes out my well pump at 35 PSI/~15 gallons a minute creating a rainstorm of water around the 8 buildings they are plumbed on. My GVFX-3648 is easily capable of operating the well pump during a grid outage. I also have window shutters and metal roofs. I use this to activate the solenoid valve from my phone if I am gone: [ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06X6NBDFW ]( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06X6NBDFW ) It is controlled by this phone application: [ https://ewelink.cc/ ]( https://ewelink.cc/ )[ ]( https://ewelink.cc/ ) It is perplexing why Cal Fire and others do not test and recommend these kinds of systems. The best answer I have been able to come up with is they fear people prepared like this would have a tendency to "stay and defend" their homes rather than evacuating. Todd On Monday, March 13, 2023 6:37pm, "Ray Walters via RE-wrenches" said: Michael; Can you share more about your sprinkler system and the power supply for it? Over the years, at least two of my customers have lost their homes (and PV arrays) in wild fires. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/13/2023 2:34 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: WebRelay. I use one to turn off my WEEDS (Wind Enabled Ember Dousing System) sprinkler system via a 12V solenoid Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Mar 14 14:32:24 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 12:32:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Sprinklers (was Re: Cell phone based relay control) In-Reply-To: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> I decided to make this a 2nd thread, so as not to high jack the original theme. I have a question: it sounds like you are not spraying the roof, because its metal?  Isn't the plywood and rafters still vulnerable underneath the metal, or no? I'm concerned with large hot embers. Can you post a couple pics of your sprayer install? 2nd question:  what are the field results of these systems in actual fires? Thanks, Ray On 3/14/2023 10:03 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I can help with this as Michael built something similar to what I > designed and installed in 2001: > > I plumbed small irrigation sprayers every ~15' around the perimeter of > my buildingsunder the eaves. This wets down the perimeter of the > structures, particularly the combustion zone where the building meets > the ground. Roof mounted sprayers leave a vulnerable dry gap between > the drip edge and the building. Under eave sprayers wet this area and > the siding. > > I have 40 of these sprayers which maxes out my well pump at 35 PSI/~15 > gallons a minute creating a rainstorm of water around the 8 buildings > they are plumbed on. My GVFX-3648 is easily capable of operating the > well pump during a grid outage. > > I also have window shutters and metal roofs. > > I use this to activate the solenoid valve from my phone if I am gone: > > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06X6NBDFW > > It is controlled by this phone application: > https://ewelink.cc/ > > It is perplexing why Cal Fire and others do not test and recommend > these kinds of systems. The best answer I have been able to come up > with is they fear people prepared like this would have a tendency to > "stay and defend" their homes rather than evacuating. > > Todd > > > > > On Monday, March 13, 2023 6:37pm, "Ray Walters via RE-wrenches" > said: > > Michael; > > Can you share more about your sprinkler system and the power supply > for it?  Over the years, at least two of my customers have lost their > homes (and PV arrays) in wild fires. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 3/13/2023 2:34 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > WebRelay. I use one to turn off my WEEDS (Wind Enabled Ember > Dousing System) sprinkler system via a 12V solenoid > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 16:20:03 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 14:20:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fire Sprinklers (was Re: Cell phone based relay control) In-Reply-To: <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> References: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <57B602CE-FC11-4C3E-A29D-501FC1E67098@gmail.com> HI Ray, I’d researched this when I lived in an area that was fire prone. I would recommend reading this info about the product and how it works and what it doesn’t work for. https://www.7thgenerationdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/fire-WEEDS.pdf jay > On Mar 14, 2023, at 12:32 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I decided to make this a 2nd thread, so as not to high jack the original theme. > > I have a question: it sounds like you are not spraying the roof, because its metal? Isn't the plywood and rafters still vulnerable underneath the metal, or no? I'm concerned with large hot embers. > > Can you post a couple pics of your sprayer install? > > 2nd question: what are the field results of these systems in actual fires? > > Thanks, > > Ray > > On 3/14/2023 10:03 AM, Todd Cory via RE-wrenches wrote: >> I can help with this as Michael built something similar to what I designed and installed in 2001: >> >> I plumbed small irrigation sprayers every ~15' around the perimeter of my buildings under the eaves. This wets down the perimeter of the structures, particularly the combustion zone where the building meets the ground. Roof mounted sprayers leave a vulnerable dry gap between the drip edge and the building. Under eave sprayers wet this area and the siding. >> >> I have 40 of these sprayers which maxes out my well pump at 35 PSI/~15 gallons a minute creating a rainstorm of water around the 8 buildings they are plumbed on. My GVFX-3648 is easily capable of operating the well pump during a grid outage. >> >> I also have window shutters and metal roofs. >> >> I use this to activate the solenoid valve from my phone if I am gone: >> >> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06X6NBDFW >> >> It is controlled by this phone application: >> https://ewelink.cc/ >> >> It is perplexing why Cal Fire and others do not test and recommend these kinds of systems. The best answer I have been able to come up with is they fear people prepared like this would have a tendency to "stay and defend" their homes rather than evacuating. >> >> Todd >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, March 13, 2023 6:37pm, "Ray Walters via RE-wrenches" said: >> >> Michael; >> Can you share more about your sprinkler system and the power supply for it? Over the years, at least two of my customers have lost their homes (and PV arrays) in wild fires. >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 3/13/2023 2:34 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> WebRelay. I use one to turn off my WEEDS (Wind Enabled Ember Dousing System) sprinkler system via a 12V solenoid >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 17:52:53 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 15:52:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark contact Message-ID: <1877FFEB-E107-45BE-94A4-10C2546CC0A5@gmail.com> HI All, Does anyone have a very high up contact at sol ark? A few months ago I was writing about a buddy who had a stacked 12k. Hes a competent installer. It was designed by sol ark, All loads were included correctly. The system was monitored by sol ark Numerous board failures, incorrect firmware replacement parts, inverters with different firmwares causing issues etc, a giant long list of screwups. No issues from incorrect installation such as poor or incorrect wiring, or not torqued correctly or programmed correctly. In the end they sent him 2 new 12k units after admitting that the firmwares had been incorrect and that had caused other damage which caused other damage. This did take care of the issue. However they are still billing him $1600 for fixing his warranty inverter which they replaced with new because see above. Which is beyond bonkers. Hes getting nowhere with this, and I asking if anyone knows who to talk to who can fix this. The tech dept seems very clear that its not his fault, but billing and above are not on the same page. Thanks jay From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Mar 14 23:11:23 2023 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 20:11:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Primo 3.8 with State 573 error code Message-ID: Wrenches, I'm out of town and trying to help a customer with a STATE 573 error on a Fronius 3.8 kW inverter installed in 2017.  I looked on line and could find State codes but no "573".  Customer sent me a photo of the screen and it's definitely 573 so not a typo.  If anyone has run into this before and can provide any guidance that would be great.  Also if you have a current phone # for Fronius Tech support that wouldn't hurt either. All the best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK From frenergy at psln.com Tue Mar 14 23:23:52 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 20:23:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Primo 3.8 with State 573 error code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg,             My Fronius manual goes up to a code 517 but no "higher".  I assume you're talking about an "IG".  The last Ph # I used for them was 810-220-4414. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 3/14/2023 8:11 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, > > I'm out of town and trying to help a customer with a STATE 573 error > on a Fronius 3.8 kW inverter installed in 2017.  I looked on line and > could find State codes but no "573".  Customer sent me a photo of the > screen and it's definitely 573 so not a typo.  If anyone has run into > this before and can provide any guidance that would be great.  Also if > you have a current phone # for Fronius Tech support that wouldn't hurt > either. > > All the best, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From dlee at roamsolar.com Wed Mar 15 00:04:35 2023 From: dlee at roamsolar.com (Dave Lee) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 21:04:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Primo 3.8 with State 573 error code In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I logged into SOS.Fronius.com and entered the 573 error code for a Primo 3.8 inverter. The diagnosis says "Power derating because of too low ambient temperature." Does it get too cold in Alaska? 😁 Dave Lee ROAM Solar San Carlos, CA On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 8:12 PM greg egan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I'm out of town and trying to help a customer with a STATE 573 error on > a Fronius 3.8 kW inverter installed in 2017. I looked on line and could > find State codes but no "573". Customer sent me a photo of the screen > and it's definitely 573 so not a typo. If anyone has run into this > before and can provide any guidance that would be great. Also if you > have a current phone # for Fronius Tech support that wouldn't hurt either. > > All the best, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 15 14:07:11 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 11:07:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW remote display adapter Message-ID: <5d05fde3d6c1a24573743d32f3dde571@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am trying to help a client connect a Trace SW replacement display to a PS series inverter . I have done this once but it was using a stand-alone remote display (SWRC) that was packaged in a shallow enclosure with a standard DB25 connector. We are trying to do this with a replacement display. The display itself has a ribbon cable with a header connector. Does anyone have a wiring diagram on how to convert the 20 pin header to a DB25 connector? This could then be connected to the PS Series remote display connector. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Mar 15 16:19:08 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:19:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PID and iLumen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marco - You might want to check with SunPower again, my understanding is that they are planning on releasing a PID solution (it might be the iLumen PIDbox). I don't know about timing or other details at this point. Best, August Luminalt On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 5:23 PM Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > Have any of you sourced this device (see attached) from any U.S. > distributor? > It's used to be able to match old-style positive-grounded SunPower modules > with transformerless inverters and avoid the performance-robbing surface > polarization effect. > I was in contact with the manufacturer, iLumen, in Belgium and could > purchase them in quantity from them. > But I don't want to buy a dozen of them. And SunPower (what's left of > it), isn't interested in purchasing them in bulk and reselling them to > their loyal channel partners. > Effectively their message is: it's your problem, deal with it. > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Mar 15 16:40:24 2023 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:40:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXT] PID and iLumen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, August. Yes, indeed I have been in communication with SunPower on this matter. While they are supporting the use of the iLumen PID with their old style positive-grounded arrays and transformerless inverters, they are not at the point of bringing them in bulk from iLumen in Belgium to offer their dealers. I am trying to reestablish direct contact with Dirk at iLumen to see about purchasing one or two at a time as I don't want to get a dozen of them. And so it goes. marco On Wednesday, March 15, 2023, August Goers wrote: > Hi Marco - You might want to check with SunPower again, my understanding > is that they are planning on releasing a PID solution (it might be the > iLumen PIDbox). I don't know about timing or other details at this point. > > Best, August > Luminalt > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 5:23 PM Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> Have any of you sourced this device (see attached) from any U.S. >> distributor? >> It's used to be able to match old-style positive-grounded SunPower >> modules with transformerless inverters and avoid the performance-robbing >> surface polarization effect. >> I was in contact with the manufacturer, iLumen, in Belgium and could >> purchase them in quantity from them. >> But I don't want to buy a dozen of them. And SunPower (what's left of >> it), isn't interested in purchasing them in bulk and reselling them to >> their loyal channel partners. >> Effectively their message is: it's your problem, deal with it. >> Mahalo, >> marco >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 17:15:20 2023 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:15:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent Message-ID: Hello Wrenches Here’s a classic problem for you. I installed an array of 11 Trina 380s on a ground mount, commissioned January 6 of this year. It worked fine for a while, but in the last week it has had an intermittent power problem. For example, this morning it was putting out zero watts at the inverter. I measured voltage at the disconnect at the array and got zero volts. I checked all the connections and wires and it all seemed solid. I had to leave so I couldn’t start isolating modules. I came back this afternoon and it was producing an appropriate amount of power for the light conditions. What’s the most obvious thing that could be going on? Some kind of micro crack and thermal expansion? Thanks, Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Mar 16 17:23:11 2023 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 14:23:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03a801d9584d$833895b0$89a9c110$@pv-cables.com> In my experience, if the Trina modules have the TS4 connectors on them and are mated to an MC4 connector they tend to have issues. Bryan -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2023 2:15 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Hilton Dier Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent Hello Wrenches Here’s a classic problem for you. I installed an array of 11 Trina 380s on a ground mount, commissioned January 6 of this year. It worked fine for a while, but in the last week it has had an intermittent power problem. For example, this morning it was putting out zero watts at the inverter. I measured voltage at the disconnect at the array and got zero volts. I checked all the connections and wires and it all seemed solid. I had to leave so I couldn’t start isolating modules. I came back this afternoon and it was producing an appropriate amount of power for the light conditions. What’s the most obvious thing that could be going on? Some kind of micro crack and thermal expansion? Thanks, Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 17:24:09 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:24:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hilton, Can you give more details about the inverter? And when the DC was reading 0 volts, did you try turning off the disconnect at the array to see if isolating it from the inverter, it would show voltage? Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 5:15 PM Hilton Dier via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches > > Here’s a classic problem for you. I installed an array of 11 Trina 380s on > a ground mount, commissioned January 6 of this year. It worked fine for a > while, but in the last week it has had an intermittent power problem. > > For example, this morning it was putting out zero watts at the inverter. I > measured voltage at the disconnect at the array and got zero volts. I > checked all the connections and wires and it all seemed solid. I had to > leave so I couldn’t start isolating modules. I came back this afternoon and > it was producing an appropriate amount of power for the light conditions. > > What’s the most obvious thing that could be going on? Some kind of micro > crack and thermal expansion? > > Thanks, > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 17:46:31 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 14:46:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Intermittent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches/Hilton Home run connections, confirm brand, had issue where it needed more volts to overcome the poor connections. You will need to be on site with at least two techs and check each homerun first but l have had module to module issues. I have also had internal issues at the Jbox some brands are just pushed in and don't seem to work well. Got to love PV On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 2:15 PM Hilton Dier via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches > > Here’s a classic problem for you. I installed an array of 11 Trina 380s on > a ground mount, commissioned January 6 of this year. It worked fine for a > while, but in the last week it has had an intermittent power problem. > > For example, this morning it was putting out zero watts at the inverter. I > measured voltage at the disconnect at the array and got zero volts. I > checked all the connections and wires and it all seemed solid. I had to > leave so I couldn’t start isolating modules. I came back this afternoon and > it was producing an appropriate amount of power for the light conditions. > > What’s the most obvious thing that could be going on? Some kind of micro > crack and thermal expansion? > > Thanks, > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Thu Mar 16 17:58:43 2023 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:58:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging Message-ID: Wrenches I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago The system is performing well The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with her stationary bicycle operating a small generator Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on a breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the inverter When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off No need for any back up other times of year That is the only use of the grid Her request was to be off grid This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter low light conditions So far all is working as designed But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, there is a back up available The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 strings of 8 batteries per string They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 Charge Controllers The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank Anyone ever played with setting this up? She wants to try this out and see what is possible Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full without using the grid or a back up gas generator All suggestions welcome Thanks Larry Larry Brown Sun Mountain From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Mar 16 18:09:30 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 17:09:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bicycle charging her L16 battery bank would be fine waste of effort. In good shape she might be able to make 200 watts for some part of an hour before being tired. Even Lance Armstrong in his peak probably wouldn't be producing multiple kWh per day. My $0.02 worth, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 4:59 PM Larry Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Wrenches > > I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago > The system is performing well > The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with her > stationary bicycle operating a small generator > Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on a > breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the inverter > When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off > No need for any back up other times of year > That is the only use of the grid > > Her request was to be off grid > This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter low > light conditions > So far all is working as designed > But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, > there is a back up available > > The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 > strings of 8 batteries per string > They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC > They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 > Charge Controllers > The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter > > Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary > bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank > Anyone ever played with setting this up? > She wants to try this out and see what is possible > Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full > without using the grid or a back up gas generator > > All suggestions welcome > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 16 18:10:53 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:10:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I recall from pushing the "wayback" button, Backwoods and Real Goods used to sell something like that in the 90s.  I would only see a pyschological benefit, based on the system size. I recall that the charge rate was less than 50 watts, so its really not going to be worth wiring into the system.  Maybe she could do what several folks have done: power a TV while you pedal.  Anyway, here is device that might do it:   https://www.econvergence.net/ Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/16/2023 3:58 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches > > I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago > The system is performing well > The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with her stationary bicycle operating a small generator > Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on a breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the inverter > When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off > No need for any back up other times of year > That is the only use of the grid > > Her request was to be off grid > This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter low light conditions > So far all is working as designed > But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, there is a back up available > > The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 strings of 8 batteries per string > They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC > They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 Charge Controllers > The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter > > Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank > Anyone ever played with setting this up? > She wants to try this out and see what is possible > Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full without using the grid or a back up gas generator > > All suggestions welcome > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 18:29:28 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 15:29:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I tried this back in the 1970's with an exercise bike and a high efficiency generator (still have this if anyone wants it). If I pushed hard I could get it up to 200W, but only sustain about 100W. The only time I used it is when my battery was depleted and I wanted to watch TV. I had a 12VDC 5" B&W TV (so cute), so I would pedal like crazy during the commercials and it would just make it to the next commercial. It was way too loud to do it while watching. I eventually got a generator setup from Backwoods. Brad On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 3:11 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > As I recall from pushing the "wayback" button, Backwoods and Real Goods > used to sell something like that in the 90s. I would only see a > pyschological benefit, based on the system size. I recall that the > charge rate was less than 50 watts, so its really not going to be worth > wiring into the system. Maybe she could do what several folks have > done: power a TV while you pedal. Anyway, here is device that might do > it: https://www.econvergence.net/ > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 3/16/2023 3:58 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches > > > > I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago > > The system is performing well > > The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with > her stationary bicycle operating a small generator > > Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on > a breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the > inverter > > When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off > > No need for any back up other times of year > > That is the only use of the grid > > > > Her request was to be off grid > > This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter > low light conditions > > So far all is working as designed > > But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, > there is a back up available > > > > The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 > strings of 8 batteries per string > > They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC > > They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 > Charge Controllers > > The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter > > > > Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary > bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank > > Anyone ever played with setting this up? > > She wants to try this out and see what is possible > > Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full > without using the grid or a back up gas generator > > > > All suggestions welcome > > > > Thanks > > Larry > > > > Larry Brown > > Sun Mountain > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 16 18:49:21 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:49:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B23B31D-40BC-4A35-899E-F08DB8195A6C@gmail.com> HI Brad, I was just about to hit send on those exact wattages, yes completely agree. As a sort of joke, the self discharge of the batteries is probably more than what she could make in a day. Jay > On Mar 16, 2023, at 4:29 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I tried this back in the 1970's with an exercise bike and a high efficiency generator (still have this if anyone wants it). If I pushed hard I could get it up to 200W, but only sustain about 100W. The only time I used it is when my battery was depleted and I wanted to watch TV. I had a 12VDC 5" B&W TV (so cute), so I would pedal like crazy during the commercials and it would just make it to the next commercial. It was way too loud to do it while watching. I eventually got a generator setup from Backwoods. > > Brad > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 3:11 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > As I recall from pushing the "wayback" button, Backwoods and Real Goods > used to sell something like that in the 90s. I would only see a > pyschological benefit, based on the system size. I recall that the > charge rate was less than 50 watts, so its really not going to be worth > wiring into the system. Maybe she could do what several folks have > done: power a TV while you pedal. Anyway, here is device that might do > it: https://www.econvergence.net/ > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 3/16/2023 3:58 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches > > > > I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago > > The system is performing well > > The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with her stationary bicycle operating a small generator > > Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on a breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the inverter > > When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off > > No need for any back up other times of year > > That is the only use of the grid > > > > Her request was to be off grid > > This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter low light conditions > > So far all is working as designed > > But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, there is a back up available > > > > The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 strings of 8 batteries per string > > They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC > > They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 Charge Controllers > > The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter > > > > Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank > > Anyone ever played with setting this up? > > She wants to try this out and see what is possible > > Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full without using the grid or a back up gas generator > > > > All suggestions welcome > > > > Thanks > > Larry > > > > Larry Brown > > Sun Mountain > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Mar 16 19:13:04 2023 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 16:13:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin: RE-Markets list Message-ID: <1679008392818.590d16184f3723d6@re-wrenches.org> Hi Wrenches. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact me off-list. Several folks have asked me about the RE-Markets list that I set up, and run in conjunction with Bill Roush. Here is what it is for: The RE-Markets list was set up specifically for discussing marketing and similar topics that are related to installing dealers, and other things that are not allowed on the Wrench List. It is also the best place to discuss region-specific incentives, etc., so not everyone on the Wrench list needs to toil through discussions that do not relate to their geographic area. It is the right place to forward customer leads and (until something better becomes available) you can use it to let other wrenches know of any inventory for sale. Please note that not all Wrenches participate, and there are some people participating who are not installers/dealiers. To join the RE-Markets list, sign up at http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-markets-re-wrenches.org. From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Mar 23 18:19:39 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 22:19:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging In-Reply-To: <0B23B31D-40BC-4A35-899E-F08DB8195A6C@gmail.com> References: <0B23B31D-40BC-4A35-899E-F08DB8195A6C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On the topic of producing energy by pedaling… [maxresdefault.jpg] Olympic Cyclist Vs. Toaster: Can He Power It? youtube.com Cheers, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Mar 16, 2023, at 4:50 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:  HI Brad, I was just about to hit send on those exact wattages, yes completely agree. As a sort of joke, the self discharge of the batteries is probably more than what she could make in a day. Jay On Mar 16, 2023, at 4:29 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: I tried this back in the 1970's with an exercise bike and a high efficiency generator (still have this if anyone wants it). If I pushed hard I could get it up to 200W, but only sustain about 100W. The only time I used it is when my battery was depleted and I wanted to watch TV. I had a 12VDC 5" B&W TV (so cute), so I would pedal like crazy during the commercials and it would just make it to the next commercial. It was way too loud to do it while watching. I eventually got a generator setup from Backwoods. Brad On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 3:11 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: As I recall from pushing the "wayback" button, Backwoods and Real Goods used to sell something like that in the 90s. I would only see a pyschological benefit, based on the system size. I recall that the charge rate was less than 50 watts, so its really not going to be worth wiring into the system. Maybe she could do what several folks have done: power a TV while you pedal. Anyway, here is device that might do it: https://www.econvergence.net/ Ray Walters Remote Solar On 3/16/2023 3:58 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches > > I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago > The system is performing well > The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with her stationary bicycle operating a small generator > Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on a breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the inverter > When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off > No need for any back up other times of year > That is the only use of the grid > > Her request was to be off grid > This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter low light conditions > So far all is working as designed > But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, there is a back up available > > The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 strings of 8 batteries per string > They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC > They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 Charge Controllers > The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter > > Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank > Anyone ever played with setting this up? > She wants to try this out and see what is possible > Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full without using the grid or a back up gas generator > > All suggestions welcome > > Thanks > Larry > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 130170 bytes Desc: maxresdefault.jpg URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Mar 25 10:21:39 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 10:21:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging In-Reply-To: References: <0B23B31D-40BC-4A35-899E-F08DB8195A6C@gmail.com> Message-ID: That quantifies it. With 746 W being 1 horsepower, a top cyclist can produce a bit less than 1 horsepower for several minutes before exhaustion. This demonstrates how much power a solar array produces. A moderate array produces more power than is expended in a bicycle race with a team of seasoned athletes, even more power than a team of work horses. Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-03-23 18:19, Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches wrote: > On the topic of producing energy by pedaling... > > Olympic Cyclist Vs. Toaster: Can He Power It? [1] > youtube.com [1] > > Cheers, > Kienan > > Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC > > Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) > > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com [2] > > (801) 631-5584(Cell) > > www.distribution.solar > >> On Mar 16, 2023, at 4:50 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI Brad, > > I was just about to hit send on those exact wattages, yes completely agree. > > As a sort of joke, the self discharge of the batteries is probably more than what she could make in a day. > > Jay > > On Mar 16, 2023, at 4:29 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I tried this back in the 1970's with an exercise bike and a high efficiency generator (still have this if anyone wants it). If I pushed hard I could get it up to 200W, but only sustain about 100W. The only time I used it is when my battery was depleted and I wanted to watch TV. I had a 12VDC 5" B&W TV (so cute), so I would pedal like crazy during the commercials and it would just make it to the next commercial. It was way too loud to do it while watching. I eventually got a generator setup from Backwoods. > > Brad > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 3:11 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: As I recall from pushing the "wayback" button, Backwoods and Real Goods > used to sell something like that in the 90s. I would only see a > pyschological benefit, based on the system size. I recall that the > charge rate was less than 50 watts, so its really not going to be worth > wiring into the system. Maybe she could do what several folks have > done: power a TV while you pedal. Anyway, here is device that might do > it: https://www.econvergence.net/ [3] > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 3/16/2023 3:58 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Wrenches >> >> I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago >> The system is performing well >> The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with her stationary bicycle operating a small generator >> Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on a breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the inverter >> When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off >> No need for any back up other times of year >> That is the only use of the grid >> >> Her request was to be off grid >> This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter low light conditions >> So far all is working as designed >> But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, there is a back up available >> >> The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 strings of 8 batteries per string >> They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC >> They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 Charge Controllers >> The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter >> >> Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank >> Anyone ever played with setting this up? >> She wants to try this out and see what is possible >> Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full without using the grid or a back up gas generator >> >> All suggestions welcome >> >> Thanks >> Larry >> >> Larry Brown >> Sun Mountain >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [6] >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S4O5voOCqAQ [2] https://maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com/ [3] https://www.econvergence.net/ [4] http://re-wrenches.org/ [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 130170 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Mar 25 12:35:24 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2023 11:35:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Battery Charging In-Reply-To: References: <0B23B31D-40BC-4A35-899E-F08DB8195A6C@gmail.com> Message-ID: I noticed none have addressed the question of what is the minimum energy needs. Is the house all dc or is it AC/DC or all AC? During critical periods what really needs power? Can any of these super-critical loads be powered not on electricity? in 1992 I presented a paper that said in Mpls MN, during a ten-year period, the longest no-see-sun was 7 days. Can the super-critical loads have a separate battery on a 7-day clock? How is the water heated? How is the house heated? Several years ago, perhaps 30 yrs. 3-M corp had a Pelter-Seebeck device that could power a 1/4 hp motor off a furnace flame. On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 9:21 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That quantifies it. With 746 W being 1 horsepower, a top cyclist can > produce a bit less than 1 horsepower for several minutes before exhaustion. > > This demonstrates how much power a solar array produces. A moderate array > produces more power than is expended in a bicycle race with a team of > seasoned athletes, even more power than a team of work horses. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > --- > > > > On 2023-03-23 18:19, Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches wrote: > > On the topic of producing energy by pedaling... > > [image: maxresdefault.jpg] > > Olympic Cyclist Vs. Toaster: Can He Power It? > > youtube.com > > Cheers, > Kienan > > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC* > > *Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)* > > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * > > *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* > > *www.distribution.solar* > > On Mar 16, 2023, at 4:50 PM, jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > HI Brad, > > I was just about to hit send on those exact wattages, yes completely agree. > > As a sort of joke, the self discharge of the batteries is probably more > than what she could make in a day. > > Jay > > > > On Mar 16, 2023, at 4:29 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I tried this back in the 1970's with an exercise bike and a high > efficiency generator (still have this if anyone wants it). If I pushed hard > I could get it up to 200W, but only sustain about 100W. The only time I > used it is when my battery was depleted and I wanted to watch TV. I had a > 12VDC 5" B&W TV (so cute), so I would pedal like crazy during the > commercials and it would just make it to the next commercial. It was way > too loud to do it while watching. I eventually got a generator setup from > Backwoods. > > Brad > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 3:11 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > As I recall from pushing the "wayback" button, Backwoods and Real Goods > used to sell something like that in the 90s. I would only see a > pyschological benefit, based on the system size. I recall that the > charge rate was less than 50 watts, so its really not going to be worth > wiring into the system. Maybe she could do what several folks have > done: power a TV while you pedal. Anyway, here is device that might do > it: https://www.econvergence.net/ > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 3/16/2023 3:58 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches > > > > I have a client that we did an off grid system for about 4 years ago > > The system is performing well > > The client would like to keep charged her batteries in the winter with > her stationary bicycle operating a small generator > > Right now she uses a grid connection that was available and she turns on > a breaker if needed to charge the batteries in the winter through the > inverter > > When the batteries are fully charged she turns the breaker back off > > No need for any back up other times of year > > That is the only use of the grid > > > > Her request was to be off grid > > This set up eliminated the need for her to have a generator for winter > low light conditions > > So far all is working as designed > > But there is talk of adding a gas generator so that if the grid is down, > there is a back up available > > > > The system has 16- AGM Concorde SunXtener Batteries configured in 2 > strings of 8 batteries per string > > They are PVX 3050T 6 volt batteries operating at 48VDC > > They are charged from the PV Array by 2- Schneider Conext MPPT 80 600 > Charge Controllers > > The system has a Schneider Conext XW+ 5548 Single Inverter > > > > Any thoughts or ideas of what equipment can be matched with a stationary > bicycle that might give a trickle charge to the battery bank > > Anyone ever played with setting this up? > > She wants to try this out and see what is possible > > Get some winter exercise and perhaps keep the batteries as close to full > without using the grid or a back up gas generator > > > > All suggestions welcome > > > > Thanks > > Larry > > > > Larry Brown > > Sun Mountain > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 130170 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Sun Mar 26 13:17:46 2023 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:17:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small 48V wind turbine recommendations Message-ID: Greetings folks! Anybody have a recommendation for a small decent quality wind turbine manufacturer with decent quality equipment? We had a small SWWP turbine that has officially gone belly up and are looking to replace it. We don't do much these days in the wind scene and are a bit out of the loop. 500-1000 watt size would be wonderful. Thanks for any input -opinions - advice! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Mar 27 14:11:20 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 14:11:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small 48V wind turbine recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirpal, Since Bergey stopped making the XL.1 I have been looking as well. In the affordable range I can only find a few Chinese models and tried a rated 1000 watt Tumo. It was well built but with a small rotor diameter I was not expecting much from it. It managed to put out 550 watts in a 35 mph wind and eventually blew off some blades and then left the tower. It landed in tact but I'm debating trying to get blades and hub from China or just wait for something better. The same company puts out a 2000 watt which I call a possible 1000 watt. My customer has bought one from China for around $2000 and we are in the process of installing it. Check back with me in a few months and I can let you know how it goes. I'm still hoping the PIKA 1.6 kw turbine will somehow get back in production. They work great and the two in my area are still working fine after many years. JohnBlittersdorf CV Wind Service John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service. On Sun, Mar 26, 2023 at 1:18 PM Kirpal via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Greetings folks! > Anybody have a recommendation for a small decent quality wind turbine manufacturer with decent quality equipment? We had a small SWWP turbine that has officially gone belly up and are looking to replace it. We don't do much these days in the wind scene and are a bit out of the loop. 500-1000 watt size would be wonderful. > Thanks for any input -opinions - advice! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 23:07:00 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 21:07:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backwards compatibility Schneider Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have someone who would like to move away from Iron Edison batteries. They want to go to Lithium, I'm thinking 2 x eVault Max would be a good fit for them. They have dual 5548 XW+ (not XW Pro) inverters with a Schneider Gateway device, I am curious if anyone has had issues/challenges trying to get closed loop communications to work with this set up. If not, how about schneiders battery monitor with Lithium? Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Wed Mar 29 10:37:18 2023 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:37:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply Message-ID: Hi All, I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the following: Comp shingle Plywood Foam board T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for fastening the full extent of the array. This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have addressed similar situations. One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad for any opinions on that or another solution. -Matt -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Mar 29 10:53:16 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:53:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Matt, I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good way to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the > following: > > Comp shingle > Plywood > Foam board > T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) > > The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for > fastening the full extent of the array. > > This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am > writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have > addressed similar situations. > > One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad > for any opinions on that or another solution. > > -Matt > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Mar 29 11:09:01 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:09:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very timely post for me, Matt. Thanks. I was just asked to bid a roof mount with SIP panels. My first thought is to just say no. I am very hesitant to rely on the pull out strength of screws in OSB. I will be watching this thread. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 9:37 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the > following: > > Comp shingle > Plywood > Foam board > T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) > > The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for > fastening the full extent of the array. > > This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am > writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have > addressed similar situations. > > One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad > for any opinions on that or another solution. > > -Matt > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Mar 29 11:31:54 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:31:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Matt,             I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick is the foam?  Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G?  Do you know how the plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, nailers or whatever they're called? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Matt, > I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good > way to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) > https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ > > You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and > beefier though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with > the following: > > Comp shingle > Plywood > Foam board > T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) > > The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient > for fastening the full extent of the array. > > This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and > am writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how > others have addressed similar situations. > > One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be > glad for any opinions on that or another solution. > > -Matt > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Mar 29 11:44:34 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:44:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backwards compatibility Schneider In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94b1a9ee8f9cd3143e0fea17f4a1a23e@sti.net> It will be some work to make this work right for you! The XWP is based on Soc and or V. If you use the Schneider bat mon, it will be a settings guess for Soc. You will have to do this yearly to compare BMS Soc to the input you set for the bat mon. I doubt you will get this to work closed loop unless you use the discover AES and it's closed loop gear. (not xanbus). XW+ is missing the memory and is V only, to communicate with Evault thru gateway. The easy way here is to use XWP and not have any of the settings fiasco. It will charge Soc thru gateway to eVault BMS on canbus. Or use the Discover and go all xanbus and super easy set-up. Iron Edison also makes LFP and they may shed some light. Ask them if they can close loop with Gateway and XW+ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-03-28 8:07 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have someone who would like to move away from Iron Edison batteries. > They want to go to Lithium, I'm thinking 2 x eVault Max would be a > good fit for them. They have dual 5548 XW+ (not XW Pro) inverters with > a Schneider Gateway device, > > I am curious if anyone has had issues/challenges trying to get closed > loop communications to work with this set up. If not, how about > schneiders battery monitor with Lithium? > > Thanks! -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Mar 29 12:26:35 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:26:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backwards compatibility Schneider In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It will be some work to make this work right for you! The XWP is based on Soc and or V. If you use the Schneider bat mon, it will be a settings guess for Soc. You will have to do this yearly to compare BMS Soc to the input you set for the bat mon. I doubt you will get this to work closed loop unless you use the discover AES and it's closed loop gear. (not xanbus). XW+ is missing the memory and is V only, to communicate with Evault thru gateway. Check with Fortress as I am using older info. They may have a way to use close loop gateway with their product. The easy way here is to use XWP and not have any of the settings fiasco. It will charge Soc thru gateway to eVault BMS on canbus. Or use the Discover and go all xanbus and super easy set-up. Iron Edison also makes LFP and they may shed some light. Ask them if they can close loop with Gateway and XW+ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-03-28 8:07 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have someone who would like to move away from Iron Edison batteries. > They want to go to Lithium, I'm thinking 2 x eVault Max would be a > good fit for them. They have dual 5548 XW+ (not XW Pro) inverters with > a Schneider Gateway device, > > I am curious if anyone has had issues/challenges trying to get closed > loop communications to work with this set up. If not, how about > schneiders battery monitor with Lithium? > > Thanks! -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Mar 29 13:57:01 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:57:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a3bbbb8-2c62-9c51-778a-f404c9efe8b4@entech-engineering.com> Quickbolt makes a similar product to the nano. I've used it several times. The last time when I was trying to attach to oak beam and had no experience with how difficult that was.  They work well, but no greater than 36" spacing. https://quickbolt.com/catalog?field_roof_type_tid=1175&field_rain_mount_tid=All&field_adjustablility_tid=All&items_per_page=12 Chris On 3/29/2023 11:09 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > Very timely post for me, Matt.  Thanks. > > I was just asked to bid a roof mount with SIP panels.  My first > thought is to just say no.  I am very hesitant to rely on the pull out > strength of screws in OSB. > > I will be watching this thread. > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 9:37 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with > the following: > > Comp shingle > Plywood > Foam board > T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) > > The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient > for fastening the full extent of the array. > > This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and > am writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how > others have addressed similar situations. > > One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be > glad for any opinions on that or another solution. > > -Matt > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 14:02:56 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:02:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base, lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath to attach. Fun times On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Matt, > > I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick is > the foam? Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the > plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, > nailers or whatever they're called? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Matt, > I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good way > to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) > https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ > > You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier > though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the >> following: >> >> Comp shingle >> Plywood >> Foam board >> T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) >> >> The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for >> fastening the full extent of the array. >> >> This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am >> writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have >> addressed similar situations. >> >> One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad >> for any opinions on that or another solution. >> >> -Matt >> >> -- >> Matt Sherald >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> 304-704-5943 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_5060834515090526244_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed Mar 29 14:33:59 2023 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:33:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Mar 29 14:46:42 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:46:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> Message-ID: We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions typically pencil out structurally (via a structural professional engineer) as long as the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info on how the roof is constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing structures. We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount products like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do think that they offer several significant advantages including not needing to find rafters, thus virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the flashing. August Luminalt On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! > > Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting > spiderrax.com > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > President > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > *Since 1987,** helping you and your * > *Portland neighbors move** towards an environmentally sustainable future.* > > > *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Wrenches > Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole > attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base, > lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath > to attach. > Fun times > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Matt, >> >> I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick >> is the foam? Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the >> plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, >> nailers or whatever they're called? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> CA Lic 874049 >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Matt, >> I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good way >> to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) >> https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ >> >> You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier >> though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the >>> following: >>> >>> Comp shingle >>> Plywood >>> Foam board >>> T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) >>> >>> The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for >>> fastening the full extent of the array. >>> >>> This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am >>> writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have >>> addressed similar situations. >>> >>> One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad >>> for any opinions on that or another solution. >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sherald >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> 304-704-5943 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 288-2898 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> Virus-free.www.avast.com >> >> <#m_3963197914649838960_m_5060834515090526244_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 14:51:06 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 11:51:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backwards compatibility Schneider In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D6A32B9-47CD-47F3-A73B-415614A9BD91@gmail.com> I have an XW5548+ with Gateway and Discover AES battery and can vouch that it works slick. Brad AEE Solar Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 29, 2023, at 9:26 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > It will be some work to make this work right for you! The XWP is based on Soc and or V. If you use the Schneider bat mon, it will be a settings guess for Soc. You will have to do this yearly to compare BMS Soc to the input you set for the bat mon. I doubt you will get this to work closed loop unless you use the discover AES and it's closed loop gear. (not xanbus). XW+ is missing the memory and is V only, to communicate with Evault thru gateway. Check with Fortress as I am using older info. They may have a way to use close loop gateway with their product. > > The easy way here is to use XWP and not have any of the settings fiasco. It will charge Soc thru gateway to eVault BMS on canbus. Or use the Discover and go all xanbus and super easy set-up. > > Iron Edison also makes LFP and they may shed some light. Ask them if they can close loop with Gateway and XW+ > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > >> On 2023-03-28 8:07 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I have someone who would like to move away from Iron Edison batteries. They want to go to Lithium, I'm thinking 2 x eVault Max would be a good fit for them. They have dual 5548 XW+ (not XW Pro) inverters with a Schneider Gateway device, >> >> I am curious if anyone has had issues/challenges trying to get closed loop communications to work with this set up. If not, how about schneiders battery monitor with Lithium? >> >> Thanks! >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 15:25:21 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 12:25:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Backwards compatibility Schneider In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Mac You might want to find out what size battery you currently have so you can build from there, this way you can know the current values under sized Li on will make for an unhappy customer service. Fun times On Tue, Mar 28, 2023, 8:07 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I have someone who would like to move away from Iron Edison batteries. > They want to go to Lithium, I'm thinking 2 x eVault Max would be a good > fit for them. They have dual 5548 XW+ (not XW Pro) inverters with a > Schneider Gateway device, > > I am curious if anyone has had issues/challenges trying to get closed loop > communications to work with this set up. If not, how about schneiders > battery monitor with Lithium? > > Thanks! > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Mar 30 02:38:19 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 23:38:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Thanks for bringing up this scenario. I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or other deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: 1. I worry about compression of the foam material over time. This could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or wobbly brackets. 2. I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof rain-proofing. By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc. Since roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom is that gravity is the only way to reliably shed water. Overlapping, seamless material is the only method to use. Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the rafter is often under an architectural feature or seam in the shingles. I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW. The fasteners provided were not rated for the application, according to the fastener manufacturer. If you can match the fasteners to the decking and the forces, then maybe you have a start to a mounting solution. Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of flashing metal, lapped under the next course up. The flashing gives a flat, seamless surface to caulk or gasket to. The thicker and wider the flashing, the more you distribute the downward force applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids under the bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. I hope these musings help you find a solution. William Miller PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on flat, built-up roofing (BUR ). We have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on top of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into the roofing with cant strips . A pitched roof is a different situation, however. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* August Goers *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions typically pencil out structurally (via a structural professional engineer) as long as the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info on how the roof is constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing structures. We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount products like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do think that they offer several significant advantages including not needing to find rafters, thus virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the flashing. August Luminalt On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * *spiderrax.com * *Error! Filename not specified.* *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* President *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* *Since 1987, helping you and your * *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.* *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com * On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Wrenches Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base, lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath to attach. Fun times On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Matt, I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick is the foam? Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, nailers or whatever they're called? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Matt, I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good way to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi All, I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the following: Comp shingle Plywood Foam board T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for fastening the full extent of the array. This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have addressed similar situations. One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad for any opinions on that or another solution. -Matt -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- [image: Logo] *Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solar* *p: *he | him | his *a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 *w:* www.sungineersolar.com *c:* (607) 288-2898 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Virus-free.www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 30 05:56:41 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 05:56:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for good reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal information, having just gone through arguably the most catastrophic wind event in Florida's history (Ian) since the boom in solar energy started, and another major wind event (Irrma) just 5 years ago. First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only products, I would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the market, the IronRidge HUG. If you can't find info on it, ask your distributor or IronRidge sales rep. They have data on truss attachments and also missed truss installation procedures. It's a unique approach to a dual-purpose product, and they did a stellar job on the engineering documentation in my opinion. Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane Ian, the number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed that failed due to fastener pull-out (mine or competitors): ZERO The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof with pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, but the mounts themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing system itself failed, causing a small section of the PV system to fail. But even in that case, the following applies... The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the fastener or flashing system. The module to rail connection is where we saw failures. These failures fell into a few categories: - Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel popped out of mid-clamps. - Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a good percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional on the ground!) I suspect the panels became covex in the wind, bending frames inward. - Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC leads. - Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge UFO, Unirac SM). - Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). - Unexplained module detachment failures. On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my front door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how many roof leaks my clients were about to endure, and wondered about the efficacy of my business going forward. Those fears never materialized. Aside from a handful of minor panel dislodgements, there was no panic following the storm (with respect to solar panels). The bigger problem became all of the people needing to remove panels for roof replacements, but PV panels largely protected roofs in the areas where they were installed. Sadly, the rest of the roof often did not fare as well. Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My thinking is coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust IronRidge's testing regime). And sealants have come so far. This method will remain up for debate probably for a long time. Around here, I am pretty certain these products will outlast the shingles they are placed upon. We only get 15 years out of most shingle roofs around here. About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat roofs with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. These screws are usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths from 5 - 12". Not a single failure. We have also used Quick Mount QBase Low-Slope bases on pitched tile roofs that were only screwed into decking with 4 fasteners each (due to horizontal truss transitions) in some cases. Zero failures. But the most relevant attachments I can think of that are germane to this discussion are the many thousands of S-5 SolarFoot that we have screwed into decking on 5V metal roofs around here. These have four screws per attachment, and S-5 load tests show something like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB (adjusted for safety factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we usually get anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 inches in certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure. I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers Beach (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have decking-only attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other attachments other than trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that I trust decking-only attachments from a pull-out strength standpoint. When properly engineered, with cautious attachment spacing, these mounts work in both OSB and plywood. Because of the inconsistencies in OSB, we always err on the side of caution, if not in the engineering, then in the installation, by installing more attachments than prescribed. But the evidence is clear. It works. Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, and no experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12. And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. Aside from one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 failure, we had zero failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report. I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears aside. Please reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics or details about our experience with catastrophic wind events. Sincerely, Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > Thanks for bringing up this scenario. > > > > I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or other > deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: > > > > 1. I worry about compression of the foam material over time. This > could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or wobbly > brackets. > > 2. I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof > rain-proofing. By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc. Since > roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom is that gravity is the > only way to reliably shed water. Overlapping, seamless material is the > only method to use. Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the > rafter is often under an architectural feature or seam in the shingles. > > I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW. The fasteners > provided were not rated for the application, according to the fastener > manufacturer. If you can match the fasteners to the decking and the > forces, then maybe you have a start to a mounting solution. > > > > Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of flashing > metal, lapped under the next course up. The flashing gives a flat, > seamless surface to caulk or gasket to. The thicker and wider the > flashing, the more you distribute the downward force > > applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids under the > bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. > > > > I hope these musings help you find a solution. > > > > William Miller > > > > PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on flat, built-up > roofing (BUR ). We > have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on top > of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into the roofing > with cant strips > . > A pitched roof is a different situation, however. > > > > Wm > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* August Goers > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply > > > > We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions typically > pencil out structurally (via a structural professional engineer) as long as > the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info on how > the roof is constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that > roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing structures. > > > > We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount products > like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do think that they > offer several significant advantages including not needing to find rafters, > thus virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp > shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the flashing. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! > > > > *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * > > *spiderrax.com * > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > > President > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > > > *Since 1987, helping you and your * > > *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.* > > > > > *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > > > On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Wrenches > > Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole > attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base, > lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath > to attach. > > Fun times > > > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Matt, > > I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick is > the foam? Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the > plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, > nailers or whatever they're called? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > > CA Lic 874049 > > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good way > to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) > > https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ > > > > You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier > though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the > following: > > > > Comp shingle > > Plywood > > Foam board > > T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) > > > > The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for > fastening the full extent of the array. > > > > This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am > writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have > addressed similar situations. > > > > One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad > for any opinions on that or another solution. > > > > -Matt > > > -- > > Matt Sherald > > PIMBY Energy, LLC > > 304-704-5943 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > [image: Logo] > > > *Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solar* > > *p: *he | him | his > *a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > *w:* www.sungineersolar.com > *c:* (607) 288-2898 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Mar 30 07:34:20 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 07:34:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in FL and the Caribbean, the recommended module to rail attachment method is back to using the attachment holes in the solar module.  Chris On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for good > reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal information, having > just gone through arguably the most catastrophic wind event in > Florida's history (Ian) since the boom in solar energy started, and > another major wind event (Irrma) just 5 years ago. > > First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only products, I > would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the market, the IronRidge > HUG. If you can't find info on it, ask your distributor or IronRidge > sales rep. They have data on truss attachments and also missed truss > installation procedures. It's a unique approach to a dual-purpose > product, and they did a stellar job on the engineering documentation > in my opinion. > > Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane Ian, > the number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed that failed > due to fastener pull-out (mine or competitors): > > ZERO > > The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof with > pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, but the > mounts themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing system itself > failed, causing a small section of the PV system to fail. But even in > that case, the following applies... > > The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the > fastener or flashing system. The module to rail connection is where we > saw failures. These failures fell into a few categories: > > * Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel popped > out of mid-clamps. > * Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a good > percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional on the > ground!) I suspect the panels became covex in the wind, bending > frames inward. > * Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel > dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC leads. > * Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge UFO, > Unirac SM). > * Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). > * Unexplained module detachment failures. > > On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my > front door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how many > roof leaks my clients were about to endure, and wondered about the > efficacy of my business going forward. Those fears never materialized. > Aside from a handful of minor panel dislodgements, there was no panic > following the storm (with respect to solar panels). The bigger problem > became all of the people needing to remove panels for roof > replacements, but PV panels largely protected roofs in the areas where > they were installed. Sadly, the rest of the roof often did not fare as > well. > > Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of > non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My > thinking is coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust > IronRidge's testing regime). And sealants have come so far. This > method will remain up for debate probably for a long time. Around > here, I am pretty certain these products will outlast the shingles > they are placed upon. We only get 15 years out of most shingle roofs > around here. > > About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat > roofs with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. These > screws are usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths from 5 - > 12". Not a single failure. We have also used Quick Mount QBase > Low-Slope bases on pitched tile roofs that were only screwed into > decking with 4 fasteners each (due to horizontal truss transitions) in > some cases. Zero failures. But the most relevant attachments I can > think of that are germane to this discussion are the many thousands of > S-5 SolarFoot that we have screwed into decking on 5V metal roofs > around here. These have four screws per attachment, and S-5 load tests > show something like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB (adjusted for > safety factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we usually get > anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 inches in > certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure. > > I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers Beach > (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have > decking-only attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other attachments > other than trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that I trust > decking-only attachments from a pull-out strength standpoint. When > properly engineered, with cautious attachment spacing, these mounts > work in both OSB and plywood. Because of the inconsistencies in OSB, > we always err on the side of caution, if not in the engineering, then > in the installation, by installing more attachments than prescribed. > But the evidence is clear. It works. > > > Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, and > no experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12. > > And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. Aside > from one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 failure, > we had zero failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report. > > I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears aside. > Please reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics or details > about our experience with catastrophic wind events. > > Sincerely, > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > Thanks for bringing up this scenario. > > I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or > other deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid > foam-above-sheeting roof: > > 1.I worry about compression of the foam material over time.  This > could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or > wobbly brackets. > > 2.I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof > rain-proofing.  By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc.  > Since roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom is that > gravity is the only way to reliably shed water.  Overlapping, > seamless material is the only method to use. Caulks degrade, roof > surfaces become powdery, and the rafter is often under an > architectural feature or seam in the shingles. > > I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW.  The > fasteners provided were not rated for the application, according > to the fastener manufacturer.  If you can match the fasteners to > the decking and the forces, then maybe you have a start to a > mounting solution. > > Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of > flashing metal, lapped under the next course up.  The flashing > gives a flat, seamless surface to caulk or gasket to.  The thicker > and wider the flashing, the more you distribute the downward force > > applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners.  Any voids under > the bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. > > I hope these musings help you find a solution. > > William Miller > > PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on > flat, built-up roofing (BUR > ).  We have > dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on > top of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into > the roofing with cant strips > .  > A pitched roof is a different situation, however. > > Wm > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of > *August Goers via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* August Goers > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply > > We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions > typically pencil out structurally (via a structural professional > engineer) as long as the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming > we have all the info on how the roof is constructed. The big > assumption is that we can get all that roof construction info, > which can be difficult for existing structures. > > We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount > products like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do > think that they offer several significant advantages including not > needing to find rafters, thus virtually eliminating missed pilot > holes, and not disturbing the comp shingle by eliminating prying > up the courses to insert the flashing. > > August > > Luminalt > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! > > *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * > > *spiderrax.com * > > > > *Error! Filename not specified.* > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > > President > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > /The BRIGHT CHOICE/* > > *Since 1987, helping you and your * > > *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally > sustainable future.* > > *503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com * > > > > On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >  > > Wrenches > > Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few > multi hole attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. > Most will have a larger base, lots of holes for screws to > attach that do not require rafters underneath to attach. > > Fun times > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Matt, > >             I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or > 5/8" and how thick is the foam?  Oh and I assume its > nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the plywood is > attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to > stringers, nailers or whatever they're called? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > > CA Lic 874049 > > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > I've used these in the past when on a comp roof > and there was no good way to get into the rafters > (or TJI's in this case) > > https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ > > You might want to replace the screws with > something shorter and beefier though to get more > grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've run into a roof-mounted job where the > roof is built-up with the following: > > Comp shingle > > Plywood > > Foam board > > T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) > > The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced > and not convenient for fastening the full > extent of the array. > > This being the case, I was considering other > fastening options and am writing to pick the > collective brain of the Wrenches to see how > others have addressed similar situations. > > One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy > Mounting Foot and I'd be glad for any opinions > on that or another solution. > > -Matt > > > -- > > Matt Sherald > > PIMBY Energy, LLC > > 304-704-5943 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: > http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. > When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > Logo > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar* > > *p: *he | him | his* > a: *1653 Slaterville Rd.| Ithaca, NY 14850 > *w:* www.sungineersolar.com > > *c:* (607) 288-2898 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Mar 30 09:48:59 2023 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 13:48:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: System installed on Loggerhead Key in 2002 with spacing between subarrays and back bolted still there after much hurricane activity (John Calhoun design)[X] Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2023 7:34:20 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Christopher Warfel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in FL and the Caribbean, the recommended module to rail attachment method is back to using the attachment holes in the solar module. Chris On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for good reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal information, having just gone through arguably the most catastrophic wind event in Florida's history (Ian) since the boom in solar energy started, and another major wind event (Irrma) just 5 years ago. First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only products, I would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the market, the IronRidge HUG. If you can't find info on it, ask your distributor or IronRidge sales rep. They have data on truss attachments and also missed truss installation procedures. It's a unique approach to a dual-purpose product, and they did a stellar job on the engineering documentation in my opinion. Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane Ian, the number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed that failed due to fastener pull-out (mine or competitors): ZERO The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof with pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, but the mounts themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing system itself failed, causing a small section of the PV system to fail. But even in that case, the following applies... The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the fastener or flashing system. The module to rail connection is where we saw failures. These failures fell into a few categories: * Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel popped out of mid-clamps. * Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a good percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional on the ground!) I suspect the panels became covex in the wind, bending frames inward. * Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC leads. * Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge UFO, Unirac SM). * Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). * Unexplained module detachment failures. On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my front door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how many roof leaks my clients were about to endure, and wondered about the efficacy of my business going forward. Those fears never materialized. Aside from a handful of minor panel dislodgements, there was no panic following the storm (with respect to solar panels). The bigger problem became all of the people needing to remove panels for roof replacements, but PV panels largely protected roofs in the areas where they were installed. Sadly, the rest of the roof often did not fare as well. Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My thinking is coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust IronRidge's testing regime). And sealants have come so far. This method will remain up for debate probably for a long time. Around here, I am pretty certain these products will outlast the shingles they are placed upon. We only get 15 years out of most shingle roofs around here. About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat roofs with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. These screws are usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths from 5 - 12". Not a single failure. We have also used Quick Mount QBase Low-Slope bases on pitched tile roofs that were only screwed into decking with 4 fasteners each (due to horizontal truss transitions) in some cases. Zero failures. But the most relevant attachments I can think of that are germane to this discussion are the many thousands of S-5 SolarFoot that we have screwed into decking on 5V metal roofs around here. These have four screws per attachment, and S-5 load tests show something like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB (adjusted for safety factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we usually get anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 inches in certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure. I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers Beach (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have decking-only attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other attachments other than trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that I trust decking-only attachments from a pull-out strength standpoint. When properly engineered, with cautious attachment spacing, these mounts work in both OSB and plywood. Because of the inconsistencies in OSB, we always err on the side of caution, if not in the engineering, then in the installation, by installing more attachments than prescribed. But the evidence is clear. It works. Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, and no experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12. And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. Aside from one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 failure, we had zero failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report. I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears aside. Please reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics or details about our experience with catastrophic wind events. Sincerely, Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: Thanks for bringing up this scenario. I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or other deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: 1. I worry about compression of the foam material over time. This could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or wobbly brackets. 2. I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof rain-proofing. By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc. Since roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom is that gravity is the only way to reliably shed water. Overlapping, seamless material is the only method to use. Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the rafter is often under an architectural feature or seam in the shingles. I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW. The fasteners provided were not rated for the application, according to the fastener manufacturer. If you can match the fasteners to the decking and the forces, then maybe you have a start to a mounting solution. Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of flashing metal, lapped under the next course up. The flashing gives a flat, seamless surface to caulk or gasket to. The thicker and wider the flashing, the more you distribute the downward force applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids under the bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. I hope these musings help you find a solution. William Miller PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on flat, built-up roofing (BUR). We have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on top of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into the roofing with cant strips. A pitched roof is a different situation, however. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: August Goers Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions typically pencil out structurally (via a structural professional engineer) as long as the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info on how the roof is constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing structures. We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount products like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do think that they offer several significant advantages including not needing to find rafters, thus virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the flashing. August Luminalt On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches > wrote: We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting spiderrax.com Error! Filename not specified. Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Wrenches Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base, lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath to attach. Fun times On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: Matt, I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick is the foam? Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, nailers or whatever they're called? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Matt, I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good way to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All, I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the following: Comp shingle Plywood Foam board T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for fastening the full extent of the array. This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have addressed similar situations. One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad for any opinions on that or another solution. -Matt -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:part1.aRXOEXfc.7BYvD0zC at entech-engineering.com] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: EEIlogolong.jpg URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 30 18:34:56 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:34:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: That would be great if it were possible! I'm not sure how you bottom mount a flush mount array. For a brief period many years ago, I was building solar trailers. I would bottom mount 4-6 panel arrays on rails in my warehouse and then hoist them up and through-bolt the whole array on the top of a trailer. I wasn't about to allow a trailer going 80 mph on the interstate to have panels mounted on the roof with mid-clamps! I had no idea what I was doing, but I had enough sense to know that would have been a bad idea! I did provide feedback to IronRidge regarding a handful of failures from Hurricane Ian, but most of the issues we saw were most likely related to catastrophic module failure. After all, they are only tested to 5600 Pa uplift for even the best options we have on the market and 2400 Pa for some (which I refuse to use). The mid-clamp T-bolts tearing out of the rail are slightly concerning, but this was pretty rare, and honestly it could be related to installation torque issues, misalignment, or coupled with module failure. There was no widespread or definitive reason for rail failures at the clamp locations. I would suggest that FEMA's recommendation is overkill and not based on much science, but conclusions based on anecdotal information without statistical data. It should be scrutinized. I think it would be a good idea to consider bottom mount for ground racks and tilt mounts that allow it, but it's just not practical or possible in the vast majority of residential installation cases. On that note, I am not aware of any ground mount failures around here from Hurricane Ian except for submerged arrays that were washed away from storm surge (Yikes!). And the handful of failures that we observed were a drop in the bucket relative to the installed numbers here. One other thing. Wind direction, upwind obstructions/windbreaks, and luck have a huge amount to do with failures (of both PV and roofs themselves). These storms pick winners and losers. You will have ten houses in a row with pool enclosures mangled, and one in the middle that is unscathed. It's crazy to see. We have lots of gated communities with houses close together. When wind accelerates between houses, it can topple air conditioning units and pool equipment. If you look hard enough at where the wind was coming from and the surrounding area, you can really see how there are so many factors that come into play. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 7:35 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in FL and the > Caribbean, the recommended module to rail attachment method is back to > using the attachment holes in the solar module. Chris > On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for good reason. > I want to provide some practical/anecdotal information, having just gone > through arguably the most catastrophic wind event in Florida's history > (Ian) since the boom in solar energy started, and another major wind event > (Irrma) just 5 years ago. > > First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only products, I would > check out IronRidge's new entrant into the market, the IronRidge HUG. If > you can't find info on it, ask your distributor or IronRidge sales rep. > They have data on truss attachments and also missed truss installation > procedures. It's a unique approach to a dual-purpose product, and they did > a stellar job on the engineering documentation in my opinion. > > Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane Ian, the > number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed that failed due to > fastener pull-out (mine or competitors): > > ZERO > > The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof with > pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, but the mounts > themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing system itself failed, > causing a small section of the PV system to fail. But even in that case, > the following applies... > > The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the fastener > or flashing system. The module to rail connection is where we saw failures. > These failures fell into a few categories: > > - Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel popped out > of mid-clamps. > - Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a good > percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional on the ground!) I > suspect the panels became covex in the wind, bending frames inward. > - Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel dislodged, > often still on the roof suspended by DC leads. > - Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge UFO, > Unirac SM). > - Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). > - Unexplained module detachment failures. > > On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my front > door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how many roof leaks > my clients were about to endure, and wondered about the efficacy of my > business going forward. Those fears never materialized. Aside from a > handful of minor panel dislodgements, there was no panic following the > storm (with respect to solar panels). The bigger problem became all of the > people needing to remove panels for roof replacements, but PV panels > largely protected roofs in the areas where they were installed. Sadly, the > rest of the roof often did not fare as well. > > Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of > non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My thinking is > coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust IronRidge's testing > regime). And sealants have come so far. This method will remain up for > debate probably for a long time. Around here, I am pretty certain these > products will outlast the shingles they are placed upon. We only get 15 > years out of most shingle roofs around here. > > About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat roofs > with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. These screws are > usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths from 5 - 12". Not a single > failure. We have also used Quick Mount QBase Low-Slope bases on pitched > tile roofs that were only screwed into decking with 4 fasteners each (due > to horizontal truss transitions) in some cases. Zero failures. But the most > relevant attachments I can think of that are germane to this discussion are > the many thousands of S-5 SolarFoot that we have screwed into decking on 5V > metal roofs around here. These have four screws per attachment, and S-5 > load tests show something like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB > (adjusted for safety factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we > usually get anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 > inches in certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure. > > I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers Beach > (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have decking-only > attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other attachments other than > trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that I trust decking-only attachments > from a pull-out strength standpoint. When properly engineered, with > cautious attachment spacing, these mounts work in both OSB and plywood. > Because of the inconsistencies in OSB, we always err on the side of > caution, if not in the engineering, then in the installation, by installing > more attachments than prescribed. But the evidence is clear. It works. > > > Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, and no > experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12. > > And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. Aside from > one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 failure, we had zero > failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report. > > I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears aside. Please > reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics or details about our > experience with catastrophic wind events. > > Sincerely, > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> Thanks for bringing up this scenario. >> >> >> >> I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or other >> deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: >> >> >> >> 1. I worry about compression of the foam material over time. This >> could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or wobbly >> brackets. >> >> 2. I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof >> rain-proofing. By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc. Since >> roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom is that gravity is the >> only way to reliably shed water. Overlapping, seamless material is the >> only method to use. Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the >> rafter is often under an architectural feature or seam in the shingles. >> >> I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW. The >> fasteners provided were not rated for the application, according to the >> fastener manufacturer. If you can match the fasteners to the decking and >> the forces, then maybe you have a start to a mounting solution. >> >> >> >> Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of flashing >> metal, lapped under the next course up. The flashing gives a flat, >> seamless surface to caulk or gasket to. The thicker and wider the >> flashing, the more you distribute the downward force >> >> applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids under the >> bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. >> >> >> >> I hope these musings help you find a solution. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on flat, built-up >> roofing (BUR ). We >> have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on top >> of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into the roofing >> with cant strips >> . >> A pitched roof is a different situation, however. >> >> >> >> Wm >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* August Goers >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply >> >> >> >> We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions typically >> pencil out structurally (via a structural professional engineer) as long as >> the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info on how >> the roof is constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that >> roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing structures. >> >> >> >> We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount products >> like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do think that they >> offer several significant advantages including not needing to find rafters, >> thus virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp >> shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the flashing. >> >> >> >> August >> >> Luminalt >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! >> >> >> >> *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * >> >> *spiderrax.com * >> >> *Error! Filename not specified.* >> >> >> >> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >> >> President >> >> >> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE* >> >> >> >> *Since 1987, helping you and your * >> >> *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.* >> >> >> >> >> *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> * >> >> >> >> On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Wrenches >> >> Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole >> attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base, >> lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath >> to attach. >> >> Fun times >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Matt, >> >> I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick >> is the foam? Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the >> plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, >> nailers or whatever they're called? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> >> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >> >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> >> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> >> CA Lic 874049 >> >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Matt, >> >> I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good way >> to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) >> >> https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ >> >> >> >> You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier >> though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the >> following: >> >> >> >> Comp shingle >> >> Plywood >> >> Foam board >> >> T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) >> >> >> >> The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for >> fastening the full extent of the array. >> >> >> >> This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am >> writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have >> addressed similar situations. >> >> >> >> One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad >> for any opinions on that or another solution. >> >> >> >> -Matt >> >> >> -- >> >> Matt Sherald >> >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> >> 304-704-5943 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Mar 30 21:44:27 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 19:44:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason; I was like you: thinking good ol' bottom mounting with SS hardware was the best.  All of us old wrenches were wrong. The top down mounting system is much stronger.  I've only had a handful of failures over 25 years, and all were bottom mounted. The module completely ripped off the rack, leaving the stainless hardware, washers, etc with a thin sliver of module frame between.  For repairs, I come back and install 1/2" SS angle on the inside of the module frame to spread the load more.  AND....on new installs, no more bottom mounting. If you compare today's modules with old 12v models from 20 years ago, you'll see: much thinner metal on the bottom frames now. Meanwhile I saw several systems survive Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico: all top down mounting.  You are correct that the failures come from the modules themselves letting go, not the racking. Either the wind itself is so strong as to blow the glass, then the frame looses its structure, or flying debris breaks the glass. There were some MW PV fields that got tore up pretty bad.  So no, ground mounts definitely can be destroyed. They had tornadoes moving inside of the hurricane, and you could see it in the damage, 50' wide strips of total carnage with undamaged modules a few feet away. Like you said, The storm has a mind of its own. As far as mid clamp T bolt failures, I can confirm that probably a majority are not installed correctly, especially Unirac, which are terrible to get the T lined up right.  I've done numerous inspections world wide, and a signifcant % of racking I looked at was NOT installed correctly. 1) The Ts not squarely lined up with the rail, 2) massive over torqueing, to the point the bolt can't be reversed 3)  under torqueing, to the point the modules had slipped down a little. Most of these problems come from installing with an impact driver.  Impact drivers are a great tool (so is a hammer), but you got to know when and where to Not use them, too.  They're great for installing the lags and L feet, but then get that tool off the roof. Use an electric screw driver, socket wrench, or *drill with a clutch* set low to snug up the clamps, and then final torque with a torque wrench. Period. Ray Walters Remote Solar Former NABCEP 2004-2016 On 3/30/2023 4:34 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > That would be great if it were possible! I'm not sure how you bottom > mount a flush mount array. For a brief period many years ago, I was > building solar trailers. I would bottom mount 4-6 panel arrays on > rails in my warehouse and then hoist them up and through-bolt the > whole array on the top of a trailer. I wasn't about to allow a trailer > going 80 mph on the interstate to have panels mounted on the roof with > mid-clamps! I had no idea what I was doing, but I had enough sense to > know that would have been a bad idea! > > I did provide feedback to IronRidge regarding a handful of failures > from Hurricane Ian, but most of the issues we saw were most likely > related to catastrophic module failure. After all, they are only > tested to 5600 Pa uplift for even the best options we have on the > market and 2400 Pa for some (which I refuse to use). The mid-clamp > T-bolts tearing out of the rail are slightly concerning, but this was > pretty rare, and honestly it could be related to installation torque > issues, misalignment, or coupled with module failure. There was no > widespread or definitive reason for rail failures at the clamp locations. > > I would suggest that FEMA's recommendation is overkill and not based > on much science, but conclusions based on anecdotal information > without statistical data. It should be scrutinized. I think it would > be a good idea to consider bottom mount for ground racks and tilt > mounts that allow it, but it's just not practical or possible in the > vast majority of residential installation cases. On that note, I am > not aware of any ground mount failures around here from Hurricane Ian > except for submerged arrays that were washed away from storm surge > (Yikes!). And the handful of failures that we observed were a drop in > the bucket relative to the installed numbers here. > > One other thing. Wind direction, upwind obstructions/windbreaks, and > luck have a huge amount to do with failures (of both PV and roofs > themselves). These storms pick winners and losers. You will have ten > houses in a row with pool enclosures mangled, and one in the middle > that is unscathed. It's crazy to see. We have lots of gated > communities with houses close together. When wind accelerates between > houses, it can topple air conditioning units and pool equipment. If > you look hard enough at where the wind was coming from and the > surrounding area, you can really see how there are so many factors > that come into play. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 7:35 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in FL > and the Caribbean, the recommended module to rail attachment > method is back to using the attachment holes in the solar module. > Chris > > On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for >> good reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal >> information, having just gone through arguably the most >> catastrophic wind event in Florida's history (Ian) since the boom >> in solar energy started, and another major wind event (Irrma) >> just 5 years ago. >> >> First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only >> products, I would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the >> market, the IronRidge HUG. If you can't find info on it, ask your >> distributor or IronRidge sales rep. They have data on truss >> attachments and also missed truss installation procedures. It's a >> unique approach to a dual-purpose product, and they did >> a stellar job on the engineering documentation in my opinion. >> >> Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane >> Ian, the number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed >> that failed due to fastener pull-out (mine or competitors): >> >> ZERO >> >> The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof >> with pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, >> but the mounts themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing >> system itself failed, causing a small section of the PV system to >> fail. But even in that case, the following applies... >> >> The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the >> fastener or flashing system. The module to rail connection is >> where we saw failures. These failures fell into a few categories: >> >> * Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel >> popped out of mid-clamps. >> * Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a >> good percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional >> on the ground!) I suspect the panels became covex in the >> wind, bending frames inward. >> * Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel >> dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC leads. >> * Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge >> UFO, Unirac SM). >> * Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). >> * Unexplained module detachment failures. >> >> On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my >> front door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how >> many roof leaks my clients were about to endure, and wondered >> about the efficacy of my business going forward. Those fears >> never materialized. Aside from a handful of minor panel >> dislodgements, there was no panic following the storm (with >> respect to solar panels). The bigger problem became all of the >> people needing to remove panels for roof replacements, but PV >> panels largely protected roofs in the areas where they were >> installed. Sadly, the rest of the roof often did not fare as well. >> >> Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of >> non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My >> thinking is coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust >> IronRidge's testing regime). And sealants have come so far. This >> method will remain up for debate probably for a long time. Around >> here, I am pretty certain these products will outlast the >> shingles they are placed upon. We only get 15 years out of most >> shingle roofs around here. >> >> About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat >> roofs with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. >> These screws are usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths >> from 5 - 12". Not a single failure. We have also used Quick Mount >> QBase Low-Slope bases on pitched tile roofs that were only >> screwed into decking with 4 fasteners each (due to horizontal >> truss transitions) in some cases. Zero failures. But the most >> relevant attachments I can think of that are germane to this >> discussion are the many thousands of S-5 SolarFoot that we have >> screwed into decking on 5V metal roofs around here. These have >> four screws per attachment, and S-5 load tests show something >> like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB (adjusted for safety >> factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we usually get >> anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 inches >> in certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure. >> >> I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers >> Beach (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have >> decking-only attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other >> attachments other than trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that >> I trust decking-only attachments from a pull-out strength >> standpoint. When properly engineered, with cautious attachment >> spacing, these mounts work in both OSB and plywood. Because of >> the inconsistencies in OSB, we always err on the side of caution, >> if not in the engineering, then in the installation, by >> installing more attachments than prescribed. But the evidence is >> clear. It works. >> >> >> Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, >> and no experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12. >> >> And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. >> Aside from one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 >> failure, we had zero failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report. >> >> I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears >> aside. Please reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics >> or details about our experience with catastrophic wind events. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> Thanks for bringing up this scenario. >> >> I have two problems with using a product such as the >> easy-feet or other deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a >> rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: >> >> 1.I worry about compression of the foam material over time.  >> This could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to >> leaks or wobbly brackets. >> >> 2.I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof >> rain-proofing.  By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, >> etc. Since roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom >> is that gravity is the only way to reliably shed water. >> Overlapping, seamless material is the only method to use.  >> Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the rafter >> is often under an architectural feature or seam in the shingles. >> >> I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW.  >> The fasteners provided were not rated for the application, >> according to the fastener manufacturer. If you can match the >> fasteners to the decking and the forces, then maybe you have >> a start to a mounting solution. >> >> Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of >> flashing metal, lapped under the next course up.  The >> flashing gives a flat, seamless surface to caulk or gasket >> to.  The thicker and wider the flashing, the more you >> distribute the downward force >> >> applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids >> under the bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. >> >> I hope these musings help you find a solution. >> >> William Miller >> >> PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on >> flat, built-up roofing (BUR >> ).  We >> have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing >> blocking on top of the sheeting and having a roofer feather >> the blocks into the roofing with cant strips >> .  >> A pitched roof is a different situation, however. >> >> Wm >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf >> Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* August Goers >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply >> >> We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions >> typically pencil out structurally (via a structural >> professional engineer) as long as the deck is 1/2" plywood or >> thicker, assuming we have all the info on how the roof is >> constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that >> roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing >> structures. >> >> We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount >> products like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I >> do think that they offer several significant advantages >> including not needing to find rafters, thus virtually >> eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp >> shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the >> flashing. >> >> August >> >> Luminalt >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! >> >> *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * >> >> *spiderrax.com * >> >> >> >> *Error! Filename not specified.* >> >> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >> >> President >> >> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >> /The BRIGHT CHOICE/* >> >> *Since 1987, helping you and your * >> >> *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally >> sustainable future.* >> >> *503-238-4502 >> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> * >> >> >> >> On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> >> Wrenches >> >> Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a >> few multi hole attachment bases that are designed for >> SIP's. Most will have a larger base, lots of holes >> for screws to attach that do not require rafters >> underneath to attach. >> >> Fun times >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Matt, >> >>             I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood >> or 5/8" and how thick is the foam?  Oh and I >> assume its nominal 2X6 T&G?  Do you know how the >> plywood is attached?.....through the foam into >> the T&G?... to stringers, nailers or whatever >> they're called? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> >> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >> >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> >> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> >> CA Lic 874049 >> >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Matt, >> >> I've used these in the past when on a comp >> roof and there was no good way to get into >> the rafters (or TJI's in this case) >> >> https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ >> >> You might want to replace the screws with >> something shorter and beefier though to get >> more grip if you are only going into 1/2" >> plywood. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald >> via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I've run into a roof-mounted job where >> the roof is built-up with the following: >> >> Comp shingle >> >> Plywood >> >> Foam board >> >> T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) >> >> The beams that hold the t&g up are >> wide-spaced and not convenient for >> fastening the full extent of the array. >> >> This being the case, I was considering >> other fastening options and am writing to >> pick the collective brain of the Wrenches >> to see how others have addressed similar >> situations. >> >> One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy >> Mounting Foot and I'd be glad for any >> opinions on that or another solution. >> >> -Matt >> >> >> -- >> >> Matt Sherald >> >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> >> 304-704-5943 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > -- >                             Christopher Warfel >      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Mar 30 21:55:01 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2023 21:55:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: In high uplift scenarios, I have used both IronRidge Camo clips on the bottom frame of the module and UFO clips on the top. More expensive, but definitely an all around rock solid approach. -Chris On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 9:45 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason; > > I was like you: thinking good ol' bottom mounting with SS hardware was the > best. All of us old wrenches were wrong. > > The top down mounting system is much stronger. I've only had a handful of > failures over 25 years, and all were bottom mounted. The module completely > ripped off the rack, leaving the stainless hardware, washers, etc with a > thin sliver of module frame between. For repairs, I come back and install > 1/2" SS angle on the inside of the module frame to spread the load more. > AND....on new installs, no more bottom mounting. If you compare today's > modules with old 12v models from 20 years ago, you'll see: much thinner > metal on the bottom frames now. > > Meanwhile I saw several systems survive Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico: > all top down mounting. You are correct that the failures come from the > modules themselves letting go, not the racking. Either the wind itself is > so strong as to blow the glass, then the frame looses its structure, or > flying debris breaks the glass. There were some MW PV fields that got tore > up pretty bad. So no, ground mounts definitely can be destroyed. They had > tornadoes moving inside of the hurricane, and you could see it in the > damage, 50' wide strips of total carnage with undamaged modules a few feet > away. Like you said, The storm has a mind of its own. > > As far as mid clamp T bolt failures, I can confirm that probably a > majority are not installed correctly, especially Unirac, which are terrible > to get the T lined up right. I've done numerous inspections world wide, > and a signifcant % of racking I looked at was NOT installed correctly. > 1) The Ts not squarely lined up with the rail, > 2) massive over torqueing, to the point the bolt can't be reversed > 3) under torqueing, to the point the modules had slipped down a little. > > Most of these problems come from installing with an impact driver. Impact > drivers are a great tool (so is a hammer), but you got to know when and > where to Not use them, too. They're great for installing the lags and L > feet, but then get that tool off the roof. > > Use an electric screw driver, socket wrench, or *drill with a clutch* set > low to snug up the clamps, and then final torque with a torque wrench. > Period. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > Former NABCEP 2004-2016 > > > On 3/30/2023 4:34 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > That would be great if it were possible! I'm not sure how you bottom mount > a flush mount array. For a brief period many years ago, I was building > solar trailers. I would bottom mount 4-6 panel arrays on rails in my > warehouse and then hoist them up and through-bolt the whole array on the > top of a trailer. I wasn't about to allow a trailer going 80 mph on the > interstate to have panels mounted on the roof with mid-clamps! I had no > idea what I was doing, but I had enough sense to know that would have been > a bad idea! > > I did provide feedback to IronRidge regarding a handful of failures from > Hurricane Ian, but most of the issues we saw were most likely related to > catastrophic module failure. After all, they are only tested to 5600 Pa > uplift for even the best options we have on the market and 2400 Pa for some > (which I refuse to use). The mid-clamp T-bolts tearing out of the rail are > slightly concerning, but this was pretty rare, and honestly it could be > related to installation torque issues, misalignment, or coupled with module > failure. There was no widespread or definitive reason for rail failures at > the clamp locations. > > I would suggest that FEMA's recommendation is overkill and not based on > much science, but conclusions based on anecdotal information without > statistical data. It should be scrutinized. I think it would be a good idea > to consider bottom mount for ground racks and tilt mounts that allow it, > but it's just not practical or possible in the vast majority of residential > installation cases. On that note, I am not aware of any ground mount > failures around here from Hurricane Ian except for submerged arrays that > were washed away from storm surge (Yikes!). And the handful of failures > that we observed were a drop in the bucket relative to the installed > numbers here. > > One other thing. Wind direction, upwind obstructions/windbreaks, and luck > have a huge amount to do with failures (of both PV and roofs themselves). > These storms pick winners and losers. You will have ten houses in a row > with pool enclosures mangled, and one in the middle that is unscathed. It's > crazy to see. We have lots of gated communities with houses close together. > When wind accelerates between houses, it can topple air conditioning units > and pool equipment. If you look hard enough at where the wind was coming > from and the surrounding area, you can really see how there are so many > factors that come into play. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 7:35 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in FL and the >> Caribbean, the recommended module to rail attachment method is back to >> using the attachment holes in the solar module. Chris >> On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for good >> reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal information, having just >> gone through arguably the most catastrophic wind event in Florida's history >> (Ian) since the boom in solar energy started, and another major wind event >> (Irrma) just 5 years ago. >> >> First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only products, I >> would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the market, the IronRidge HUG. >> If you can't find info on it, ask your distributor or IronRidge sales rep. >> They have data on truss attachments and also missed truss installation >> procedures. It's a unique approach to a dual-purpose product, and they did >> a stellar job on the engineering documentation in my opinion. >> >> Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane Ian, the >> number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed that failed due to >> fastener pull-out (mine or competitors): >> >> ZERO >> >> The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof with >> pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, but the mounts >> themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing system itself failed, >> causing a small section of the PV system to fail. But even in that case, >> the following applies... >> >> The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the >> fastener or flashing system. The module to rail connection is where we saw >> failures. These failures fell into a few categories: >> >> - Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel popped out >> of mid-clamps. >> - Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a good >> percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional on the ground!) I >> suspect the panels became covex in the wind, bending frames inward. >> - Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel >> dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC leads. >> - Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge UFO, >> Unirac SM). >> - Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). >> - Unexplained module detachment failures. >> >> On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my front >> door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how many roof leaks >> my clients were about to endure, and wondered about the efficacy of my >> business going forward. Those fears never materialized. Aside from a >> handful of minor panel dislodgements, there was no panic following the >> storm (with respect to solar panels). The bigger problem became all of the >> people needing to remove panels for roof replacements, but PV panels >> largely protected roofs in the areas where they were installed. Sadly, the >> rest of the roof often did not fare as well. >> >> Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of >> non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My thinking is >> coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust IronRidge's testing >> regime). And sealants have come so far. This method will remain up for >> debate probably for a long time. Around here, I am pretty certain these >> products will outlast the shingles they are placed upon. We only get 15 >> years out of most shingle roofs around here. >> >> About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat roofs >> with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. These screws are >> usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths from 5 - 12". Not a single >> failure. We have also used Quick Mount QBase Low-Slope bases on pitched >> tile roofs that were only screwed into decking with 4 fasteners each (due >> to horizontal truss transitions) in some cases. Zero failures. But the most >> relevant attachments I can think of that are germane to this discussion are >> the many thousands of S-5 SolarFoot that we have screwed into decking on 5V >> metal roofs around here. These have four screws per attachment, and S-5 >> load tests show something like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB >> (adjusted for safety factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we >> usually get anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 >> inches in certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure. >> >> I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers Beach >> (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have decking-only >> attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other attachments other than >> trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that I trust decking-only attachments >> from a pull-out strength standpoint. When properly engineered, with >> cautious attachment spacing, these mounts work in both OSB and plywood. >> Because of the inconsistencies in OSB, we always err on the side of >> caution, if not in the engineering, then in the installation, by installing >> more attachments than prescribed. But the evidence is clear. It works. >> >> >> Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, and no >> experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12. >> >> And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. Aside from >> one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 failure, we had zero >> failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report. >> >> I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears aside. Please >> reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics or details about our >> experience with catastrophic wind events. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for bringing up this scenario. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or other >>> deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. I worry about compression of the foam material over time. This >>> could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or wobbly >>> brackets. >>> >>> 2. I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof >>> rain-proofing. By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc. Since >>> roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom is that gravity is the >>> only way to reliably shed water. Overlapping, seamless material is the >>> only method to use. Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the >>> rafter is often under an architectural feature or seam in the shingles. >>> >>> I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW. The >>> fasteners provided were not rated for the application, according to the >>> fastener manufacturer. If you can match the fasteners to the decking and >>> the forces, then maybe you have a start to a mounting solution. >>> >>> >>> >>> Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of flashing >>> metal, lapped under the next course up. The flashing gives a flat, >>> seamless surface to caulk or gasket to. The thicker and wider the >>> flashing, the more you distribute the downward force >>> >>> applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids under the >>> bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. >>> >>> >>> >>> I hope these musings help you find a solution. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on flat, built-up >>> roofing (BUR ). >>> We have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on >>> top of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into the roofing >>> with cant strips >>> . >>> A pitched roof is a different situation, however. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wm >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* August Goers >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply >>> >>> >>> >>> We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions typically >>> pencil out structurally (via a structural professional engineer) as long as >>> the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info on how >>> the roof is constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that >>> roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing structures. >>> >>> >>> >>> We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount products >>> like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do think that they >>> offer several significant advantages including not needing to find rafters, >>> thus virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp >>> shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the flashing. >>> >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> Luminalt >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! >>> >>> >>> >>> *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * >>> >>> *spiderrax.com * >>> >>> *Error! Filename not specified.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >>> >>> President >>> >>> >>> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Since 1987, helping you and your * >>> >>> *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Wrenches >>> >>> Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole >>> attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base, >>> lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath >>> to attach. >>> >>> Fun times >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>> I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick >>> is the foam? Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the >>> plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, >>> nailers or whatever they're called? >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> >>> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >>> >>> 5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) >>> >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> >>> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >>> >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> >>> Solar powered since 1982 >>> >>> On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi Matt, >>> >>> I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good >>> way to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) >>> >>> https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ >>> >>> >>> >>> You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier >>> though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the >>> following: >>> >>> >>> >>> Comp shingle >>> >>> Plywood >>> >>> Foam board >>> >>> T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) >>> >>> >>> >>> The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for >>> fastening the full extent of the array. >>> >>> >>> >>> This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am >>> writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have >>> addressed similar situations. >>> >>> >>> >>> One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad >>> for any opinions on that or another solution. >>> >>> >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Matt Sherald >>> >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> >>> 304-704-5943 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Mar 31 08:46:33 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 08:46:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <5b17a135-1b31-06e2-9ae8-68f9352199ee@entech-engineering.com> I had worked in USVI after those two hurricanes and I don't think FEMA is overkill. Their design manual is very thorough. It considers the factors mentioned here. Having done a fair amount of high wind compliance engineering for structures, the FEMA approach is just something you have to organize to install. Yes it will take longer. Chris On 3/30/2023 6:34 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > That would be great if it were possible! I'm not sure how you bottom > mount a flush mount array. For a brief period many years ago, I was > building solar trailers. I would bottom mount 4-6 panel arrays on > rails in my warehouse and then hoist them up and through-bolt the > whole array on the top of a trailer. I wasn't about to allow a trailer > going 80 mph on the interstate to have panels mounted on the roof with > mid-clamps! I had no idea what I was doing, but I had enough sense to > know that would have been a bad idea! > > I did provide feedback to IronRidge regarding a handful of failures > from Hurricane Ian, but most of the issues we saw were most likely > related to catastrophic module failure. After all, they are only > tested to 5600 Pa uplift for even the best options we have on the > market and 2400 Pa for some (which I refuse to use). The mid-clamp > T-bolts tearing out of the rail are slightly concerning, but this was > pretty rare, and honestly it could be related to installation torque > issues, misalignment, or coupled with module failure. There was no > widespread or definitive reason for rail failures at the clamp locations. > > I would suggest that FEMA's recommendation is overkill and not based > on much science, but conclusions based on anecdotal information > without statistical data. It should be scrutinized. I think it would > be a good idea to consider bottom mount for ground racks and tilt > mounts that allow it, but it's just not practical or possible in the > vast majority of residential installation cases. On that note, I am > not aware of any ground mount failures around here from Hurricane Ian > except for submerged arrays that were washed away from storm surge > (Yikes!). And the handful of failures that we observed were a drop in > the bucket relative to the installed numbers here. > > One other thing. Wind direction, upwind obstructions/windbreaks, and > luck have a huge amount to do with failures (of both PV and roofs > themselves). These storms pick winners and losers. You will have ten > houses in a row with pool enclosures mangled, and one in the middle > that is unscathed. It's crazy to see. We have lots of gated > communities with houses close together. When wind accelerates between > houses, it can topple air conditioning units and pool equipment. If > you look hard enough at where the wind was coming from and the > surrounding area, you can really see how there are so many factors > that come into play. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 7:35 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in FL > and the Caribbean, the recommended module to rail attachment > method is back to using the attachment holes in the solar module. > Chris > > On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for >> good reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal >> information, having just gone through arguably the most >> catastrophic wind event in Florida's history (Ian) since the boom >> in solar energy started, and another major wind event (Irrma) >> just 5 years ago. >> >> First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only >> products, I would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the >> market, the IronRidge HUG. If you can't find info on it, ask your >> distributor or IronRidge sales rep. They have data on truss >> attachments and also missed truss installation procedures. It's a >> unique approach to a dual-purpose product, and they did >> a stellar job on the engineering documentation in my opinion. >> >> Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane >> Ian, the number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed >> that failed due to fastener pull-out (mine or competitors): >> >> ZERO >> >> The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof >> with pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, >> but the mounts themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing >> system itself failed, causing a small section of the PV system to >> fail. But even in that case, the following applies... >> >> The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the >> fastener or flashing system. The module to rail connection is >> where we saw failures. These failures fell into a few categories: >> >> * Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel >> popped out of mid-clamps. >> * Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a >> good percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional >> on the ground!) I suspect the panels became covex in the >> wind, bending frames inward. >> * Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel >> dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC leads. >> * Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge >> UFO, Unirac SM). >> * Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). >> * Unexplained module detachment failures. >> >> On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my >> front door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how >> many roof leaks my clients were about to endure, and wondered >> about the efficacy of my business going forward. Those fears >> never materialized. Aside from a handful of minor panel >> dislodgements, there was no panic following the storm (with >> respect to solar panels). The bigger problem became all of the >> people needing to remove panels for roof replacements, but PV >> panels largely protected roofs in the areas where they were >> installed. Sadly, the rest of the roof often did not fare as well. >> >> Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of >> non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My >> thinking is coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust >> IronRidge's testing regime). And sealants have come so far. This >> method will remain up for debate probably for a long time. Around >> here, I am pretty certain these products will outlast the >> shingles they are placed upon. We only get 15 years out of most >> shingle roofs around here. >> >> About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat >> roofs with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. >> These screws are usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths >> from 5 - 12". Not a single failure. We have also used Quick Mount >> QBase Low-Slope bases on pitched tile roofs that were only >> screwed into decking with 4 fasteners each (due to horizontal >> truss transitions) in some cases. Zero failures. But the most >> relevant attachments I can think of that are germane to this >> discussion are the many thousands of S-5 SolarFoot that we have >> screwed into decking on 5V metal roofs around here. These have >> four screws per attachment, and S-5 load tests show something >> like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB (adjusted for safety >> factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we usually get >> anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 inches >> in certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure. >> >> I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers >> Beach (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have >> decking-only attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other >> attachments other than trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that >> I trust decking-only attachments from a pull-out strength >> standpoint. When properly engineered, with cautious attachment >> spacing, these mounts work in both OSB and plywood. Because of >> the inconsistencies in OSB, we always err on the side of caution, >> if not in the engineering, then in the installation, by >> installing more attachments than prescribed. But the evidence is >> clear. It works. >> >> >> Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, >> and no experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12. >> >> And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. >> Aside from one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 >> failure, we had zero failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report. >> >> I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears >> aside. Please reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics >> or details about our experience with catastrophic wind events. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> Thanks for bringing up this scenario. >> >> I have two problems with using a product such as the >> easy-feet or other deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a >> rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: >> >> 1.I worry about compression of the foam material over time.  >> This could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to >> leaks or wobbly brackets. >> >> 2.I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof >> rain-proofing.  By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, >> etc. Since roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom >> is that gravity is the only way to reliably shed water. >> Overlapping, seamless material is the only method to use.  >> Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the rafter >> is often under an architectural feature or seam in the shingles. >> >> I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW.  >> The fasteners provided were not rated for the application, >> according to the fastener manufacturer. If you can match the >> fasteners to the decking and the forces, then maybe you have >> a start to a mounting solution. >> >> Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of >> flashing metal, lapped under the next course up.  The >> flashing gives a flat, seamless surface to caulk or gasket >> to.  The thicker and wider the flashing, the more you >> distribute the downward force >> >> applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids >> under the bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. >> >> I hope these musings help you find a solution. >> >> William Miller >> >> PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on >> flat, built-up roofing (BUR >> ).  We >> have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing >> blocking on top of the sheeting and having a roofer feather >> the blocks into the roofing with cant strips >> .  >> A pitched roof is a different situation, however. >> >> Wm >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches >> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf >> Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* August Goers >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply >> >> We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions >> typically pencil out structurally (via a structural >> professional engineer) as long as the deck is 1/2" plywood or >> thicker, assuming we have all the info on how the roof is >> constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that >> roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing >> structures. >> >> We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount >> products like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I >> do think that they offer several significant advantages >> including not needing to find rafters, thus virtually >> eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp >> shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the >> flashing. >> >> August >> >> Luminalt >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! >> >> *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * >> >> *spiderrax.com * >> >> >> >> *Error! Filename not specified.* >> >> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >> >> President >> >> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >> /The BRIGHT CHOICE/* >> >> *Since 1987, helping you and your * >> >> *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally >> sustainable future.* >> >> *503-238-4502 >> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> * >> >> >> >> On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> >> Wrenches >> >> Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a >> few multi hole attachment bases that are designed for >> SIP's. Most will have a larger base, lots of holes >> for screws to attach that do not require rafters >> underneath to attach. >> >> Fun times >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Matt, >> >>             I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood >> or 5/8" and how thick is the foam?  Oh and I >> assume its nominal 2X6 T&G?  Do you know how the >> plywood is attached?.....through the foam into >> the T&G?... to stringers, nailers or whatever >> they're called? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> >> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >> >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> >> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> >> CA Lic 874049 >> >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Matt, >> >> I've used these in the past when on a comp >> roof and there was no good way to get into >> the rafters (or TJI's in this case) >> >> https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ >> >> You might want to replace the screws with >> something shorter and beefier though to get >> more grip if you are only going into 1/2" >> plywood. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald >> via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I've run into a roof-mounted job where >> the roof is built-up with the following: >> >> Comp shingle >> >> Plywood >> >> Foam board >> >> T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) >> >> The beams that hold the t&g up are >> wide-spaced and not convenient for >> fastening the full extent of the array. >> >> This being the case, I was considering >> other fastening options and am writing to >> pick the collective brain of the Wrenches >> to see how others have addressed similar >> situations. >> >> One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy >> Mounting Foot and I'd be glad for any >> opinions on that or another solution. >> >> -Matt >> >> >> -- >> >> Matt Sherald >> >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> >> 304-704-5943 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > -- >                             Christopher Warfel >      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Mar 31 16:15:38 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:15:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Ray, I'm happy to have some confirmation from another major storm's impact. My father has a home in Dominica, which was hit by Maria with 165 mph winds before it moved on to PR. He had a mixed bag of results with solar panels (forget about the pole mounts I installed there over 20 years ago!) I was just reminded by your email about something I plan to try. For panels that are pitched on flat roofs, I am going to double up and install BOTH IronRidge CAMO and UFOs. With proper planning, it would be pretty easy to install with UFOs first and then go back and snap in all of the CAMOs without much labor cost and an acceptable material cost for the added peace of mind. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 9:45 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason; > > I was like you: thinking good ol' bottom mounting with SS hardware was the > best. All of us old wrenches were wrong. > > The top down mounting system is much stronger. I've only had a handful of > failures over 25 years, and all were bottom mounted. The module completely > ripped off the rack, leaving the stainless hardware, washers, etc with a > thin sliver of module frame between. For repairs, I come back and install > 1/2" SS angle on the inside of the module frame to spread the load more. > AND....on new installs, no more bottom mounting. If you compare today's > modules with old 12v models from 20 years ago, you'll see: much thinner > metal on the bottom frames now. > > Meanwhile I saw several systems survive Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico: > all top down mounting. You are correct that the failures come from the > modules themselves letting go, not the racking. Either the wind itself is > so strong as to blow the glass, then the frame looses its structure, or > flying debris breaks the glass. There were some MW PV fields that got tore > up pretty bad. So no, ground mounts definitely can be destroyed. They had > tornadoes moving inside of the hurricane, and you could see it in the > damage, 50' wide strips of total carnage with undamaged modules a few feet > away. Like you said, The storm has a mind of its own. > > As far as mid clamp T bolt failures, I can confirm that probably a > majority are not installed correctly, especially Unirac, which are terrible > to get the T lined up right. I've done numerous inspections world wide, > and a signifcant % of racking I looked at was NOT installed correctly. > 1) The Ts not squarely lined up with the rail, > 2) massive over torqueing, to the point the bolt can't be reversed > 3) under torqueing, to the point the modules had slipped down a little. > > Most of these problems come from installing with an impact driver. Impact > drivers are a great tool (so is a hammer), but you got to know when and > where to Not use them, too. They're great for installing the lags and L > feet, but then get that tool off the roof. > > Use an electric screw driver, socket wrench, or *drill with a clutch* set > low to snug up the clamps, and then final torque with a torque wrench. > Period. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > Former NABCEP 2004-2016 > > > On 3/30/2023 4:34 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > That would be great if it were possible! I'm not sure how you bottom mount > a flush mount array. For a brief period many years ago, I was building > solar trailers. I would bottom mount 4-6 panel arrays on rails in my > warehouse and then hoist them up and through-bolt the whole array on the > top of a trailer. I wasn't about to allow a trailer going 80 mph on the > interstate to have panels mounted on the roof with mid-clamps! I had no > idea what I was doing, but I had enough sense to know that would have been > a bad idea! > > I did provide feedback to IronRidge regarding a handful of failures from > Hurricane Ian, but most of the issues we saw were most likely related to > catastrophic module failure. After all, they are only tested to 5600 Pa > uplift for even the best options we have on the market and 2400 Pa for some > (which I refuse to use). The mid-clamp T-bolts tearing out of the rail are > slightly concerning, but this was pretty rare, and honestly it could be > related to installation torque issues, misalignment, or coupled with module > failure. There was no widespread or definitive reason for rail failures at > the clamp locations. > > I would suggest that FEMA's recommendation is overkill and not based on > much science, but conclusions based on anecdotal information without > statistical data. It should be scrutinized. I think it would be a good idea > to consider bottom mount for ground racks and tilt mounts that allow it, > but it's just not practical or possible in the vast majority of residential > installation cases. On that note, I am not aware of any ground mount > failures around here from Hurricane Ian except for submerged arrays that > were washed away from storm surge (Yikes!). And the handful of failures > that we observed were a drop in the bucket relative to the installed > numbers here. > > One other thing. Wind direction, upwind obstructions/windbreaks, and luck > have a huge amount to do with failures (of both PV and roofs themselves). > These storms pick winners and losers. You will have ten houses in a row > with pool enclosures mangled, and one in the middle that is unscathed. It's > crazy to see. We have lots of gated communities with houses close together. > When wind accelerates between houses, it can topple air conditioning units > and pool equipment. If you look hard enough at where the wind was coming > from and the surrounding area, you can really see how there are so many > factors that come into play. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 7:35 AM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in FL and the >> Caribbean, the recommended module to rail attachment method is back to >> using the attachment holes in the solar module. Chris >> On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and for good >> reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal information, having just >> gone through arguably the most catastrophic wind event in Florida's history >> (Ian) since the boom in solar energy started, and another major wind event >> (Irrma) just 5 years ago. >> >> First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only products, I >> would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the market, the IronRidge HUG. >> If you can't find info on it, ask your distributor or IronRidge sales rep. >> They have data on truss attachments and also missed truss installation >> procedures. It's a unique approach to a dual-purpose product, and they did >> a stellar job on the engineering documentation in my opinion. >> >> Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to Hurricane Ian, the >> number of roofing PV attachments that I have witnessed that failed due to >> fastener pull-out (mine or competitors): >> >> ZERO >> >> The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat roof with >> pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO membrane, but the mounts >> themselves did not cause the failure. The roofing system itself failed, >> causing a small section of the PV system to fail. But even in that case, >> the following applies... >> >> The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is not the >> fastener or flashing system. The module to rail connection is where we saw >> failures. These failures fell into a few categories: >> >> - Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel popped out >> of mid-clamps. >> - Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps (a good >> percentage of panels found INTACT and still functional on the ground!) I >> suspect the panels became covex in the wind, bending frames inward. >> - Windborne debris struck mounting system components, panel >> dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC leads. >> - Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel (IronRidge UFO, >> Unirac SM). >> - Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). >> - Unexplained module detachment failures. >> >> On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself against my front >> door that I thought was about to fail, I was imagining how many roof leaks >> my clients were about to endure, and wondered about the efficacy of my >> business going forward. Those fears never materialized. Aside from a >> handful of minor panel dislodgements, there was no panic following the >> storm (with respect to solar panels). The bigger problem became all of the >> people needing to remove panels for roof replacements, but PV panels >> largely protected roofs in the areas where they were installed. Sadly, the >> rest of the roof often did not fare as well. >> >> Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been skeptical of >> non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for a long time. My thinking is >> coming around, particularly with the HUG (I trust IronRidge's testing >> regime). And sealants have come so far. This method will remain up for >> debate probably for a long time. Around here, I am pretty certain these >> products will outlast the shingles they are placed upon. We only get 15 >> years out of most shingle roofs around here. >> >> About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many flat roofs >> with long fasteners through steel decking or wood decking. These screws are >> usually something like #15 XHD screws in lengths from 5 - 12". Not a single >> failure. We have also used Quick Mount QBase Low-Slope bases on pitched >> tile roofs that were only screwed into decking with 4 fasteners each (due >> to horizontal truss transitions) in some cases. Zero failures. But the most >> relevant attachments I can think of that are germane to this discussion are >> the many thousands of S-5 SolarFoot that we have screwed into decking on 5V >> metal roofs around here. These have four screws per attachment, and S-5 >> load tests show something like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB >> (adjusted for safety factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we >> usually get anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, sometimes 24 >> inches in certain roof zones. Again, not a single failure. >> >> I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort Myers Beach >> (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of those have decking-only >> attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, or other attachments other than >> trusses. I can tell you unequivocally that I trust decking-only attachments >> from a pull-out strength standpoint. When properly engineered, with >> cautious attachment spacing, these mounts work in both OSB and plywood. >> Because of the inconsistencies in OSB, we always err on the side of >> caution, if not in the engineering, then in the installation, by installing >> more attachments than prescribed. But the evidence is clear. It works. >> >> >> Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or seismic, and no >> experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 pitch, and few above 6:12. >> >> And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. Aside from >> one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not an S-5 failure, we had zero >> failures of S-5 clamps attachments to report. >> >> I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears aside. Please >> reach out to me off-list if you want any specifics or details about our >> experience with catastrophic wind events. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for bringing up this scenario. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have two problems with using a product such as the easy-feet or other >>> deck-fastened brackets, particularly on a rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. I worry about compression of the foam material over time. This >>> could leave a void under the bracket which could lead to leaks or wobbly >>> brackets. >>> >>> 2. I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof >>> rain-proofing. By that I mean the use of caulks, gaskets, etc. Since >>> roofs were first thatched, the overriding wisdom is that gravity is the >>> only way to reliably shed water. Overlapping, seamless material is the >>> only method to use. Caulks degrade, roof surfaces become powdery, and the >>> rafter is often under an architectural feature or seam in the shingles. >>> >>> I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was DPW. The >>> fasteners provided were not rated for the application, according to the >>> fastener manufacturer. If you can match the fasteners to the decking and >>> the forces, then maybe you have a start to a mounting solution. >>> >>> >>> >>> Whatever product you use, I would install it on a section of flashing >>> metal, lapped under the next course up. The flashing gives a flat, >>> seamless surface to caulk or gasket to. The thicker and wider the >>> flashing, the more you distribute the downward force >>> >>> applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners. Any voids under the >>> bracket will have an overlapped flashing above it. >>> >>> >>> >>> I hope these musings help you find a solution. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few times on flat, built-up >>> roofing (BUR ). >>> We have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, installing blocking on >>> top of the sheeting and having a roofer feather the blocks into the roofing >>> with cant strips >>> . >>> A pitched roof is a different situation, however. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wm >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* August Goers >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply >>> >>> >>> >>> We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount solutions typically >>> pencil out structurally (via a structural professional engineer) as long as >>> the deck is 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info on how >>> the roof is constructed. The big assumption is that we can get all that >>> roof construction info, which can be difficult for existing structures. >>> >>> >>> >>> We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck mount products >>> like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac Flashloc Duo. I do think that they >>> offer several significant advantages including not needing to find rafters, >>> thus virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, and not disturbing the comp >>> shingle by eliminating prying up the courses to insert the flashing. >>> >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> Luminalt >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! >>> >>> >>> >>> *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * >>> >>> *spiderrax.com * >>> >>> *Error! Filename not specified.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >>> >>> President >>> >>> >>> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Since 1987, helping you and your * >>> >>> *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Wrenches >>> >>> Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are quite a few multi hole >>> attachment bases that are designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger base, >>> lots of holes for screws to attach that do not require rafters underneath >>> to attach. >>> >>> Fun times >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>> I guess my questions are 1/2" plywood or 5/8" and how thick >>> is the foam? Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you know how the >>> plywood is attached?.....through the foam into the T&G?... to stringers, >>> nailers or whatever they're called? >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> >>> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >>> >>> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> >>> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >>> >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> >>> Solar powered since 1982 >>> >>> On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi Matt, >>> >>> I've used these in the past when on a comp roof and there was no good >>> way to get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) >>> >>> https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ >>> >>> >>> >>> You might want to replace the screws with something shorter and beefier >>> though to get more grip if you are only going into 1/2" plywood. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I've run into a roof-mounted job where the roof is built-up with the >>> following: >>> >>> >>> >>> Comp shingle >>> >>> Plywood >>> >>> Foam board >>> >>> T&G (roof deck, but also interior ceiling) >>> >>> >>> >>> The beams that hold the t&g up are wide-spaced and not convenient for >>> fastening the full extent of the array. >>> >>> >>> >>> This being the case, I was considering other fastening options and am >>> writing to pick the collective brain of the Wrenches to see how others have >>> addressed similar situations. >>> >>> >>> >>> One thought I had was to use the PLP Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad >>> for any opinions on that or another solution. >>> >>> >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Matt Sherald >>> >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> >>> 304-704-5943 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 31 22:13:37 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2023 20:13:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or Through Ply In-Reply-To: References: <0E4FB260-B246-4745-B504-4821AE801D44@yahoo.com> <2721982a23675f7b79c71aa1016c2064@mail.gmail.com> <070d3d43-5128-8ddc-4137-35c385a21615@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Chris, Jason, all; I really like the idea of double clamping in serious situations. I wish we had had this conversation about 2 months ago, before we installed 2 more systems in Puerto Rico.  I definitely would have suggested the team try that.  Save it for next time, and hopefully we get a bit better with new found idea on each install. Thanks again for great ideas Wrenches, Ray On 3/31/2023 2:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Hi Ray, > > I'm happy to have some confirmation from another major storm's impact. > My father has a home in Dominica, which was hit by Maria with 165 mph > winds before it moved on to PR. He had a mixed bag of results with > solar panels (forget about the pole mounts I installed there over 20 > years ago!) > > I was just reminded by your email about something I plan to try. For > panels that are pitched on flat roofs, I am going to double up and > install BOTH IronRidge CAMO and UFOs. With proper planning, it would > be pretty easy to install with UFOs first and then go back and snap in > all of the CAMOs without much labor cost and an acceptable material > cost for the added peace of mind. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 9:45 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jason; > > I was like you: thinking good ol' bottom mounting with SS hardware > was the best.  All of us old wrenches were wrong. > > The top down mounting system is much stronger.  I've only had a > handful of failures over 25 years, and all were bottom mounted.  > The module completely ripped off the rack, leaving the stainless > hardware, washers, etc with a thin sliver of module frame > between.  For repairs, I come back and install 1/2" SS angle on > the inside of the module frame to spread the load more. AND....on > new installs, no more bottom mounting. If you compare today's > modules with old 12v models from 20 years ago, you'll see: much > thinner metal on the bottom frames now. > > Meanwhile I saw several systems survive Hurricane Maria in Puerto > Rico: all top down mounting.  You are correct that the failures > come from the modules themselves letting go, not the racking.  > Either the wind itself is so strong as to blow the glass, then the > frame looses its structure, or flying debris breaks the glass. > There were some MW PV fields that got tore up pretty bad.  So no, > ground mounts definitely can be destroyed. They had tornadoes > moving inside of the hurricane, and you could see it in the > damage, 50' wide strips of total carnage with undamaged modules a > few feet away. Like you said, The storm has a mind of its own. > > As far as mid clamp T bolt failures, I can confirm that probably a > majority are not installed correctly, especially Unirac, which are > terrible to get the T lined up right.  I've done numerous > inspections world wide, and a signifcant % of racking I looked at > was NOT installed correctly. > 1) The Ts not squarely lined up with the rail, > 2) massive over torqueing, to the point the bolt can't be reversed > 3)  under torqueing, to the point the modules had slipped down a > little. > > Most of these problems come from installing with an impact > driver.  Impact drivers are a great tool (so is a hammer), but you > got to know when and where to Not use them, too.  They're great > for installing the lags and L feet, but then get that tool off the > roof. > > Use an electric screw driver, socket wrench, or *drill with a > clutch* set low to snug up the clamps, and then final torque with > a torque wrench. Period. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > Former NABCEP 2004-2016 > > > On 3/30/2023 4:34 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> That would be great if it were possible! I'm not sure how you >> bottom mount a flush mount array. For a brief period many years >> ago, I was building solar trailers. I would bottom mount 4-6 >> panel arrays on rails in my warehouse and then hoist them up and >> through-bolt the whole array on the top of a trailer. I wasn't >> about to allow a trailer going 80 mph on the interstate to have >> panels mounted on the roof with mid-clamps! I had no idea what I >> was doing, but I had enough sense to know that would have been a >> bad idea! >> >> I did provide feedback to IronRidge regarding a handful of >> failures from Hurricane Ian, but most of the issues we saw were >> most likely related to catastrophic module failure. After all, >> they are only tested to 5600 Pa uplift for even the best options >> we have on the market and 2400 Pa for some (which I refuse to >> use). The mid-clamp T-bolts tearing out of the rail are slightly >> concerning, but this was pretty rare, and honestly it could be >> related to installation torque issues, misalignment, or coupled >> with module failure. There was no widespread or definitive reason >> for rail failures at the clamp locations. >> >> I would suggest that FEMA's recommendation is overkill and not >> based on much science, but conclusions based on anecdotal >> information without statistical data. It should be scrutinized. I >> think it would be a good idea to consider bottom mount for ground >> racks and tilt mounts that allow it, but it's just not practical >> or possible in the vast majority of residential installation >> cases. On that note, I am not aware of any ground mount failures >> around here from Hurricane Ian except for submerged arrays that >> were washed away from storm surge (Yikes!). And the handful of >> failures that we observed were a drop in the bucket relative to >> the installed numbers here. >> >> One other thing. Wind direction, upwind obstructions/windbreaks, >> and luck have a huge amount to do with failures (of both PV and >> roofs themselves). These storms pick winners and losers. You will >> have ten houses in a row with pool enclosures mangled, and one in >> the middle that is unscathed. It's crazy to see. We have lots of >> gated communities with houses close together. When wind >> accelerates between houses, it can topple air conditioning units >> and pool equipment. If you look hard enough at where the wind was >> coming from and the surrounding area, you can really see how >> there are so many factors that come into play. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 7:35 AM Christopher Warfel via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> If you look at FEMA's design guide for solar installations in >> FL and the Caribbean, the recommended module to rail >> attachment method is back to using the attachment holes in >> the solar module.  Chris >> >> On 3/30/2023 5:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> This thread has morphed into more than it started as, and >>> for good reason. I want to provide some practical/anecdotal >>> information, having just gone through arguably the most >>> catastrophic wind event in Florida's history (Ian) since the >>> boom in solar energy started, and another major wind event >>> (Irrma) just 5 years ago. >>> >>> First, Aside from the Sunmodo and Quickbolt decking-only >>> products, I would check out IronRidge's new entrant into the >>> market, the IronRidge HUG. If you can't find info on it, ask >>> your distributor or IronRidge sales rep. They have data on >>> truss attachments and also missed truss installation >>> procedures. It's a unique approach to a dual-purpose >>> product, and they did a stellar job on the engineering >>> documentation in my opinion. >>> >>> Ok, now let's get to my most important point. Due to >>> Hurricane Ian, the number of roofing PV attachments that I >>> have witnessed that failed due to fastener pull-out (mine or >>> competitors): >>> >>> ZERO >>> >>> The only building where we had any mounts fail was on a flat >>> roof with pitched panels and Anchor Products mounts on TPO >>> membrane, but the mounts themselves did not cause the >>> failure. The roofing system itself failed, causing a small >>> section of the PV system to fail. But even in that case, the >>> following applies... >>> >>> The weak point in a well-designed and installed system is >>> not the fastener or flashing system. The module to rail >>> connection is where we saw failures. These failures fell >>> into a few categories: >>> >>> * Windborne debris struck panel, panel frame failed, panel >>> popped out of mid-clamps. >>> * Catastrophic wind forces popped panels out of mid-clamps >>> (a good percentage of panels found INTACT and still >>> functional on the ground!) I suspect the panels became >>> covex in the wind, bending frames inward. >>> * Windborne debris struck mounting system components, >>> panel dislodged, often still on the roof suspended by DC >>> leads. >>> * Mid-clamp t-bolt tore out of aluminum rail channel >>> (IronRidge UFO, Unirac SM). >>> * Mid-clamp sheared off (Quick Mount QRail). >>> * Unexplained module detachment failures. >>> >>> On 9/28/22, while I stayed up all night bracing myself >>> against my front door that I thought was about to fail, I >>> was imagining how many roof leaks my clients were about to >>> endure, and wondered about the efficacy of my business going >>> forward. Those fears never materialized. Aside from a >>> handful of minor panel dislodgements, there was no panic >>> following the storm (with respect to solar panels). The >>> bigger problem became all of the people needing to remove >>> panels for roof replacements, but PV panels largely >>> protected roofs in the areas where they were installed. >>> Sadly, the rest of the roof often did not fare as well. >>> >>> Anyway, back to the decking attachments. I have been >>> skeptical of non-flashed products for comp shingle roofs for >>> a long time. My thinking is coming around, particularly with >>> the HUG (I trust IronRidge's testing regime). And sealants >>> have come so far. This method will remain up for debate >>> probably for a long time. Around here, I am pretty certain >>> these products will outlast the shingles they are placed >>> upon. We only get 15 years out of most shingle roofs around >>> here. >>> >>> About the pull-out fears... Mine are gone. We have done many >>> flat roofs with long fasteners through steel decking or wood >>> decking. These screws are usually something like #15 XHD >>> screws in lengths from 5 - 12". Not a single failure. We >>> have also used Quick Mount QBase Low-Slope bases on pitched >>> tile roofs that were only screwed into decking with 4 >>> fasteners each (due to horizontal truss transitions) in some >>> cases. Zero failures. But the most relevant attachments I >>> can think of that are germane to this discussion are the >>> many thousands of S-5 SolarFoot that we have screwed into >>> decking on 5V metal roofs around here. These have four >>> screws per attachment, and S-5 load tests show something >>> like 240 lbs of pull-out strength in OSB (adjusted for >>> safety factor). When engineered for our wind loads, we >>> usually get anywhere from 36-48 inch attachment spacing, >>> sometimes 24 inches in certain roof zones. Again, not a >>> single failure. >>> >>> I have more solar installations on Sanibel Island and Fort >>> Myers Beach (Hurricane Ian Ground zero) than anyone. Many of >>> those have decking-only attachments, S-5 clamps, flat roofs, >>> or other attachments other than trusses. I can tell you >>> unequivocally that I trust decking-only attachments from a >>> pull-out strength standpoint. When properly engineered, with >>> cautious attachment spacing, these mounts work in both OSB >>> and plywood. Because of the inconsistencies in OSB, we >>> always err on the side of caution, if not in the >>> engineering, then in the installation, by installing more >>> attachments than prescribed. But the evidence is clear. It >>> works. >>> >>> >>> Caveat to the above: I have zero experience with snow or >>> seismic, and no experience on roofs exceeding 8:12 >>> pitch, and few above 6:12. >>> >>> And one more shout-out to S-5 clamps on standing seam roofs. >>> Aside from one minor failure of the roof metal itself, not >>> an S-5 failure, we had zero failures of S-5 clamps >>> attachments to report. >>> >>> I hope this anecdotal information helps and sets some fears >>> aside. Please reach out to me off-list if you want any >>> specifics or details about our experience with catastrophic >>> wind events. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 2:47 AM William Miller via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> Thanks for bringing up this scenario. >>> >>> I have two problems with using a product such as the >>> easy-feet or other deck-fastened brackets, particularly >>> on a rigid foam-above-sheeting roof: >>> >>> 1.I worry about compression of the foam material over >>> time.  This could leave a void under the bracket which >>> could lead to leaks or wobbly brackets. >>> >>> 2.I don’t believe in chemical solutions for sloped-roof >>> rain-proofing.  By that I mean the use of caulks, >>> gaskets, etc.  Since roofs were first thatched, the >>> overriding wisdom is that gravity is the only way to >>> reliably shed water.  Overlapping, seamless material is >>> the only method to use.  Caulks degrade, roof surfaces >>> become powdery, and the rafter is often under an >>> architectural feature or seam in the shingles. >>> >>> I researched the PLP EZ foot back when the company was >>> DPW.  The fasteners provided were not rated for the >>> application, according to the fastener manufacturer.  If >>> you can match the fasteners to the decking and the >>> forces, then maybe you have a start to a mounting solution. >>> >>> Whatever product you use, I would install it on a >>> section of flashing metal, lapped under the next course >>> up.  The flashing gives a flat, seamless surface to >>> caulk or gasket to.  The thicker and wider the flashing, >>> the more you distribute the downward force >>> >>> applied to the bracket by weight and fasteners.  Any >>> voids under the bracket will have an overlapped flashing >>> above it. >>> >>> I hope these musings help you find a solution. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> PS: I have encountered this roof configuration a few >>> times on flat, built-up roofing (BUR >>> ).  >>> We have dealt with it by cutting through the foam, >>> installing blocking on top of the sheeting and having a >>> roofer feather the blocks into the roofing with cant >>> strips >>> .  >>> A pitched roof is a different situation, however. >>> >>> Wm >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *August Goers via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:47 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* August Goers >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching Array To or >>> Through Ply >>> >>> We've found that in the Bay Area that deck-mount >>> solutions typically pencil out structurally (via a >>> structural professional engineer) as long as the deck is >>> 1/2" plywood or thicker, assuming we have all the info >>> on how the roof is constructed. The big assumption is >>> that we can get all that roof construction info, which >>> can be difficult for existing structures. >>> >>> We haven't taken the plunge yet on the flahingless deck >>> mount products like the Sunmodo Nanomount or Unirac >>> Flashloc Duo. I do think that they offer several >>> significant advantages including not needing to find >>> rafters, thus virtually eliminating missed pilot holes, >>> and not disturbing the comp shingle by eliminating >>> prying up the courses to insert the flashing. >>> >>> August >>> >>> Luminalt >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:34 AM Solar Energy Solutions >>> via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> We like Spider Rax… with the flashing! >>> >>> *Spider-Rax PV Solar Mounting * >>> >>> *spiderrax.com * >>> >>> >>> >>> *Error! Filename not specified.* >>> >>> >>> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >>> >>> President >>> >>> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >>> /The BRIGHT CHOICE/* >>> >>> *Since 1987, helping you and your * >>> >>> *Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally >>> sustainable future.* >>> >>> *503-238-4502 >>> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 29, 2023, at 11:04 AM, Jerry Shafer via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Wrenches >>> >>> Sounds like a SIP's type product, there are >>> quite a few multi hole attachment bases that are >>> designed for SIP's. Most will have a larger >>> base, lots of holes for screws to attach that do >>> not require rafters underneath to attach. >>> >>> Fun times >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023, 8:30 AM frenergy via >>> RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>>             I guess my questions are 1/2" >>> plywood or 5/8" and how thick is the foam?  >>> Oh and I assume its nominal 2X6 T&G? Do you >>> know how the plywood is >>> attached?.....through the foam into the >>> T&G?... to stringers, nailers or whatever >>> they're called? >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> >>> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >>> >>> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> >>> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >>> >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> >>> Solar powered since 1982 >>> >>> On 3/29/2023 7:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi Matt, >>> >>> I've used these in the past when on a >>> comp roof and there was no good way to >>> get into the rafters (or TJI's in this case) >>> >>> https://sunmodo.com/nanomount/ >>> >>> You might want to replace the screws >>> with something shorter and beefier >>> though to get more grip if you are only >>> going into 1/2" plywood. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:38 AM Matt >>> Sherald via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I've run into a roof-mounted job >>> where the roof is built-up with the >>> following: >>> >>> Comp shingle >>> >>> Plywood >>> >>> Foam board >>> >>> T&G (roof deck, but also interior >>> ceiling) >>> >>> The beams that hold the t&g up are >>> wide-spaced and not convenient for >>> fastening the full extent of the array. >>> >>> This being the case, I was >>> considering other fastening options >>> and am writing to pick the >>> collective brain of the Wrenches to >>> see how others have addressed >>> similar situations. >>> >>> One thought I had was to use the PLP >>> Easy Mounting Foot and I'd be glad >>> for any opinions on that or another >>> solution. >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Matt Sherald >>> >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> >>> 304-704-5943 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >>              ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                     401-466-8978 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danny at sesre.com Mon Apr 3 14:03:51 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2023 18:03:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? 3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead batteries are on the same string. Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would cause. Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out. With Regards, -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 14:36:13 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2023 14:36:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Daniel, If it was me, I wouldn't do it. The biggest issue is that dissimilar batteries (as well as different age batteries) have different internal resistance. This will only exacerbate the problem with running multiple strings of batteries - that is they will charge and discharge at different rates, causing the individual batteries to drift farther and farther apart. And even if the new batteries settled down into a similar charge/discharge routine as the remaining bank, my experience has been that often, when a couple batteries in a larger bank die, they are only the first of many to find their way to becoming boat anchors. So you will potentially find yourself needing replacement of more batteries sooner than you'll be happy about. My suggestion would be to sort through the remaining batteries to find the healthiest 16 (through load and specific gravity testing), rearrange the bank into 2 strings of 8, keeping the others for replacement of future potential failures. This will give you some breathing room to propare to make the investment into a full replacement bank, be it Lead-Acid or Lithium. Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 2:04 PM Daniel Young via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the > ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. > > > > The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls > batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries > from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new > Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net > result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No > freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add > the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the > 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) > > > > Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? > > > > 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead > batteries are on the same string. > > Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. > > The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they > baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) > > > > I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them > shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are > of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a > big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older > faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery > bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other > batteries would cause. > > > > Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a > fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the > whole battery bank finally gives out. > > > > With Regards, > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Apr 3 14:39:18 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2023 11:39:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Daniel: I feel your pain: In October of 2021 one of our off-grid clients had failed flooded L-16 batteries. We needed 16 replacement batteries and chose Rolls VRLA batteries. We could not get 16 due to supply chain constraints so we went for 8 with a back order for another 8. It took until May of 2022 before we could get 8 more. The Rolls batteries subsequently failed. We were denied warranty relief in part because we mixed the exact same batteries but delivered 7 months apart. The cost of resolution came out of my pocket. If you can’t mix the same batteries of slightly different age, I would extrapolate that you can’t mix batteries of different manufacturer. My guess is if you mix batteries the entire array would experience a hastened decline. This conclusion is consistent with research done over many years. I looked up the S550 batteries and learned they are 6 volts units. Assuming the system is 48 volt nominal this would be 3 strings of 8. Three strings is pushing the envelope of acceptable design. Multiple parallel strings encourage circulating currents resulting in a process I call “battery cannibalism”: Lower voltage batteries discharge the higher voltage batteries over time. If it were me I would rearrange the batteries into two strings of the best batteries and wait for the rest of them to fail. I would then redesign the system for one string with an appropriate AH rating. Two volt cells are a practical way to achieve this. Also look carefully at your thermal compliance. Make sure you are using the proper temperature compensation value applied to all charging sources. Avoid re-radiated heat from sunlit surfaces and proved good ventilation. I hope this helps. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Daniel Young via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 11:04 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Daniel Young *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank Hello Wrenches, Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead batteries are on the same string. Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would cause. Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out. With Regards, -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Apr 3 15:08:40 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2023 13:08:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My 2 cents:  L16s are not a good choice in the first place. Compare the cycle life vs cost. 2nd that sounds like way too many batteries/ strings and definitely a candidate for larger format 2 v cells or Li+. I second William's idea of creating 2 strings of the best cells, and start shopping for a better solution. You're going to start playing wack a mole, replace a couple of batteries now, a couple more in 2 months, and so on, until both you and the client are in tears. Put all that money and effort towards a new battery. If they want sealed, Li+ is really the only decent choice, I've seen less than 5 years from sealed L16s like Trojan.  Full River is about the best in that field, and still only going to see 7 to 8 years.  It just doesn't pencil out compared to HUPs or Li+. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/3/2023 12:39 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Daniel: > > I feel your pain:  In October of 2021 one of our off-grid clients had > failed flooded L-16 batteries.  We needed 16 replacement batteries and > chose Rolls VRLA batteries.  We could not get 16 due to supply chain > constraints so we went for 8 with a back order for another 8.  It took > until May of 2022 before we could get 8 more. > > The Rolls batteries subsequently failed.  We were denied warranty > relief in part because we mixed the exact same batteries but delivered > 7 months apart.  The cost of resolution came out of my pocket. > > If you can’t mix the same batteries of slightly different age, I would > extrapolate that you can’t mix batteries of different manufacturer.  > My guess is if you mix batteries the entire array would experience a > hastened decline.  This conclusion is consistent with research done > over many years. > > I looked up the S550 batteries and learned they are 6 volts units.  > Assuming the system is 48 volt nominal this would be 3 strings of 8.  > Three strings is pushing the envelope of acceptable design.  Multiple > parallel strings encourage circulating currents resulting in a process > I call “battery cannibalism”:  Lower voltage batteries discharge the > higher voltage batteries over time. > > If it were me I would rearrange the batteries into two strings of the > best batteries and wait for the rest of them to fail.  I would then > redesign the system for one string with an appropriate AH rating.  Two > volt cells are a practical way to achieve this. > > Also look carefully at your thermal compliance.  Make sure you are > using the proper temperature compensation value applied to all > charging sources.  Avoid re-radiated heat from sunlit surfaces and > proved good ventilation. > > I hope this helps. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Daniel Young via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 11:04 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Daniel Young > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank > > Hello Wrenches, > > Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up > the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. > > The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls > batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA > batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to > get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for > freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the > batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we > provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do > need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) > > Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? > > 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead > batteries are on the same string. > > Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. > > The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they > baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) > > I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let > them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the > chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my > head, I don’t see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will > likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the > rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m unsure if there are any > more subtle issue that these other batteries would cause. > > Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a > fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when > the whole battery bank finally gives out. > > With Regards, > > -- > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 15:43:39 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2023 12:43:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Danny Lots of variables. As the warranty is over, that is no longer a concern to deal with The fact that you’ve had 2 go bad at the 5 year point, usually means you can expect other failures soon. There are 2 options I’ve done. 1. is to hi grade the battery bank into best 16 batteries, but that only works if that capacity is enough. Then as you get more failures in the near future ( probably) you’ll have extras to pop in. 2. is to go buy as close as possible another L16. Given the age of them, a new battery is going to be in the ball park to the same capacity. The chemistry of the rolls likes 2.5vpc but as they age that goes down in my experience as they begin to use way too much water. So that allows the newer battery to actually be a better match. But you’re probably only looking at another few years to go. My attitude with older batteries is they are already paid for, you might as well use the crap out of them, treat them hard as they don’t have long to live. And most people just don’t have the extra money to just go out and buy a new expensive battery bank. jay > On Apr 3, 2023, at 11:03 AM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. > > The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) > > Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? > > 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead batteries are on the same string. > Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. > The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) > > I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would cause. > > Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out. > > With Regards, > -- > > Danny Young > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > danny at sesre.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Apr 3 16:34:06 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2023 13:34:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for a new bank. I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up > the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. > > The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls > batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA > batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to > get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for > freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the > batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we > provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do > need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the > batteries) > > Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? > > 3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead > batteries are on the same string. > > Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. > > The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they > baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) > > I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let > them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the > chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my > head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will > likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest > of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm unsure if there are any more > subtle issue that these other batteries would cause. > > Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a > fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when > the whole battery bank finally gives out. > > With Regards, > > -- > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 19:30:00 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2023 17:30:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI onsite for non-savvy consumers? Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Apr 3 19:50:58 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2023 16:50:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <663be914b211f33b19cc1362664c1d80@sti.net> You should tell Schneider this! I have been for a year now. There was not enough SCP memory for new XWP functions and a component became unavailable. The Connext Home and Facility are definitely not for the non savvy as you say. They are easy for most to install and the non savvy can have it on their smart phone, if they can do that... You can easily monitor it for them and bill them. I do ! It does not require the internet for configuration and use. https://solar.se.com/us/en/contact-us/ Or contact me off- list and I will give you a Schneider sales application engineers email. On one hand they have really improved support but this was not an improvement. They should have known this but..... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-03 4:30 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI > onsite for non-savvy consumers? > > Thanks! > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Apr 3 22:14:45 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2023 22:14:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP Message-ID: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet.I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference.I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the tablet-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenchesDate: Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Mac Lewis;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCPHello Wrenches,Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI onsite for non-savvy consumers?Thanks!-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Apr 3 22:28:50 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2023 21:28:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <34B7458C-6D12-44E1-8ADD-1165632FE2DC@mavericksolar.com> The key word there is Cobbled. The off grid or grid interactive (battery backup in case of grid down) world really needs to rely on a smart phone? Why couldn’t Schnieder go the extra step and put a display “with enough memory” to support legacy and XW Pro equipment on the Insight product family. I.E. Cerbo GX with display from Victron. Schneider has all these cheap Chinese all in one product competition with display screens built in and some other products like the most excellent Outback Radian that has yet to delete the Simple Man’s display. I understand the potential semiconductor shortage. I just hope Schneider can balance their approach. Thank you, Maverick > On Apr 3, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. > I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. > I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the tablet > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > Date: Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Mac Lewis; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP > > Hello Wrenches, > > Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI onsite for non-savvy consumers? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 07:21:11 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 07:21:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: <34B7458C-6D12-44E1-8ADD-1165632FE2DC@mavericksolar.com> References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> <34B7458C-6D12-44E1-8ADD-1165632FE2DC@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I don’t like the idea of a system being dependent on the functionality of the insight home/facility or the battery life of a smart device / AC output of the inverter to be able to change settings. As limited as the SCP is, I think it serves a very important function in system operation. I’m all for removing unnecessary components, but don’t paint the windshield black. Schneider should offer a Xanbus tablet if this is the route they want to go. On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 10:29 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The key word there is Cobbled. The off grid or grid interactive (battery > backup in case of grid down) world really needs to rely on a smart phone? > > Why couldn’t Schnieder go the extra step and put a display “with enough > memory” to support legacy and XW Pro equipment on the Insight product > family. I.E. Cerbo GX with display from Victron. Schneider has all these > cheap Chinese all in one product competition with display screens built in > and some other products like the most excellent Outback Radian that has > yet to delete the Simple Man’s display. > > I understand the potential semiconductor shortage. I just hope Schneider > can balance their approach. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > On Apr 3, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled > together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. > I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. > I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is > basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither > WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the > tablet > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Mac Lewis; > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP > > Hello Wrenches, > > Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI > onsite for non-savvy consumers? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 11:31:24 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 08:31:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> <34B7458C-6D12-44E1-8ADD-1165632FE2DC@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Yah, What the heck? The XW Pro/Discover AES pairing makes up 2/3s of our installs. Right now I have a client who's Insight Home is glitching and drops out his smartphone connection. Without the SCP He'd be in the dark. I just purchased an SCP off of Ebay for 700.00 for a system we are building for a retiree who uses a flip-phone and doesn't use the internet. Him having to login in to Insight on a tablet every time he wants to see SOC would be laughable. On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:22 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I don’t like the idea of a system being dependent on the functionality of > the insight home/facility or the battery life of a smart device / AC output > of the inverter to be able to change settings. As limited as the SCP is, I > think it serves a very important function in system operation. I’m all for > removing unnecessary components, but don’t paint the windshield black. > Schneider should offer a Xanbus tablet if this is the route they want to > go. > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 10:29 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The key word there is Cobbled. The off grid or grid interactive (battery >> backup in case of grid down) world really needs to rely on a smart phone? >> >> Why couldn’t Schnieder go the extra step and put a display “with enough >> memory” to support legacy and XW Pro equipment on the Insight product >> family. I.E. Cerbo GX with display from Victron. Schneider has all these >> cheap Chinese all in one product competition with display screens built in >> and some other products like the most excellent Outback Radian that has >> yet to delete the Simple Man’s display. >> >> I understand the potential semiconductor shortage. I just hope Schneider >> can balance their approach. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >> On Apr 3, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled >> together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. >> I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. >> I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is >> basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither >> WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the >> tablet >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> *Date: *Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: *Mac Lewis; >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI >> onsite for non-savvy consumers? >> >> Thanks! >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 4 11:33:12 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2023 08:33:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Thanks Glen ! I will ask him on Thursday at a webinar. Register here: https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/webinar-backup-control-switch-launch/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-03 7:14 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled > together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. > I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. > I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is > basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart > usingneither WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall > mount for the tablet > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > Date: Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Mac Lewis; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP > > Hello Wrenches, > > Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI > onsite for non-savvy consumers? > > Thanks! > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Apr 4 11:56:18 2023 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 11:56:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> Message-ID: akin to outback and their FM100 charger controller with no display. I use the Midnite classic 200 instead. Christopher On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 11:34 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Thanks Glen ! I will ask him on Thursday at a webinar. > > > Register here: > > https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/webinar-backup-control-switch-launch/ > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-04-03 7:14 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled > together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. > I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. > I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is > basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither > WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the > tablet > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Mac Lewis; > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP > > Hello Wrenches, > > Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI > onsite for non-savvy consumers? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Apr 4 12:28:07 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 09:28:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Chris: Respectfully: it’s not the same thing. Outback is not discontinuing the Mate. If you have an Outback inverter you need a Mate and the Mate accesses the FM100. Sure it would be better if the FM100 had a display, but there is a viable option in the Mate. William On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > akin to outback and their FM100 charger controller with no display. I use > the Midnite classic 200 instead. > > Christopher > > On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 11:34 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Thanks Glen ! I will ask him on Thursday at a webinar. >> >> >> Register here: >> >> https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/webinar-backup-control-switch-launch/ >> >> >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2023-04-03 7:14 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled >> together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. >> I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. >> I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is >> basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither >> WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the >> tablet >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> *Date: *Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: *Mac Lewis; >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI >> onsite for non-savvy consumers? >> >> Thanks! >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > **www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 12:45:58 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 09:45:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> Message-ID: Here's a doc from Schenider on how to install a tablet and keep it always on. Brad On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 9:29 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Chris: > > Respectfully: it’s not the same thing. Outback is not discontinuing the > Mate. > > If you have an Outback inverter you need a Mate and the Mate accesses the > FM100. > > Sure it would be better if the FM100 had a display, but there is a viable > option in the Mate. > > William > > On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 8:57 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> akin to outback and their FM100 charger controller with no display. I use >> the Midnite classic 200 instead. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 11:34 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Thanks Glen ! I will ask him on Thursday at a webinar. >>> >>> >>> Register here: >>> >>> https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/webinar-backup-control-switch-launch/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2023-04-03 7:14 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled >>> together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. >>> I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. >>> I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is >>> basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither >>> WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the >>> tablet >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >>> *Date: *Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: *Mac Lewis; >>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI >>> onsite for non-savvy consumers? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> **www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 895-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Samsung tablet setup for HW connection to InsightLocal.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 233430 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 4 12:49:55 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2023 12:49:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP Message-ID: The setup I described is dedicated to the system only, only requires a login once and it on all the time.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Apr 4, 2023 11:31 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Michael Morningstar;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCPYah, What the heck? The XW Pro/Discover AES pairing makes up 2/3s of our installs. Right now I have a client who's Insight Home is glitching and drops out his smartphone connection. Without the SCP He'd be in the dark. I just purchased an SCP off of Ebay for 700.00 for a system we are building for a retiree who uses a flip-phone and doesn't use the internet. Him having to login in to Insight on a tablet every time he wants to see SOC would be laughable.On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:22 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:I don’t like the idea of a system being dependent on the functionality of the insight home/facility or the battery life of a smart device / AC output of the inverter to be able to change settings. As limited as the SCP is, I think it serves a very important function in system operation. I’m all for removing unnecessary components, but don’t paint the windshield black. Schneider should offer a Xanbus tablet if this is the route they want to go. On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 10:29 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote:The key word there is Cobbled. The off grid or grid interactive (battery backup in case of grid down) world really needs to rely on a smart phone?Why couldn’t Schnieder go the extra step and put a display “with enough memory” to support legacy and XW Pro equipment on the Insight product family. I.E. Cerbo GX with display from Victron. Schneider has all these cheap Chinese all in one product competition with display screens built in and some other products like the most excellent  Outback Radian that has yet to delete the Simple Man’s display. I understand the potential semiconductor shortage. I just hope Schneider can balance their approach. Thank you,MaverickOn Apr 3, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet.I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference.I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the tablet-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenchesDate: Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Mac Lewis;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCPHello Wrenches,Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI onsite for non-savvy consumers?Thanks!-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris SparadeoC_802-369-4458H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael MorningstarMorningstar ElectricPO Box 1494Mount Shasta, CA 96067530-921-0560mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 4 13:08:58 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2023 10:08:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7e249ad26c99f7541a47795df7732e2d@sti.net> Saying this again, you all should tell Schneider this. BTW, a tablet can wifi station mode connect to a non internet installed "conext home" with a saved password. It also can be set-up as a "user" and no password is required. Neither of these require wifi at the home. It is all in the 3 ways to install conext home or facility for configuration. Maybe this is what Eric Bentsen was telling Glen? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-04 9:49 am, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > The setup I described is dedicated to the system only, only requires a > login once and it on all the time. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > Date: Tue, Apr 4, 2023 11:31 AM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Michael Morningstar; > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP > > Yah, What the heck? The XW Pro/Discover AES pairing makes up 2/3s of > our installs. Right now I have a client who's Insight Home is glitching > and drops out his smartphone connection. Without the SCP He'd be in the > dark. I just purchased an SCP off of Ebay for 700.00 for a system we > are building for a retiree who uses a flip-phone and doesn't use the > internet. Him having to login in to Insight on a tablet every time he > wants to see SOC would be laughable. > > On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 4:22 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I don't like the idea of a system being dependent on the functionality > of the insight home/facility or the battery life of a smart device / AC > output of the inverter to be able to change settings. As limited as the > SCP is, I think it serves a very important function in system > operation. I'm all for removing unnecessary components, but don't paint > the windshield black. Schneider should offer a Xanbus tablet if this is > the route they want to go. > > On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 10:29 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: > The key word there is Cobbled. The off grid or grid interactive > (battery backup in case of grid down) world really needs to rely on a > smart phone? > > Why couldn't Schnieder go the extra step and put a display "with enough > memory" to support legacy and XW Pro equipment on the Insight product > family. I.E. Cerbo GX with display from Victron. Schneider has all > these cheap Chinese all in one product competition with display screens > built in and some other products like the most excellent Outback > Radian that has yet to delete the Simple Man's display. > > I understand the potential semiconductor shortage. I just hope > Schneider can balance their approach. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > On Apr 3, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled > together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. > I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. > I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is > basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart > usingneither WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall > mount for the tablet > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > Date: Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: Mac Lewis; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP > > Hello Wrenches, > > Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI > onsite for non-savvy consumers? > > Thanks! > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 [1] H_802-728-3059 [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 [3] mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] tel:802-369-4458 [2] tel:802-728-3059 [3] tel:530-921-0560 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danny at sesre.com Tue Apr 4 16:45:44 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and asked my peers. The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before planning to replace. Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don’t want a client with essentially nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at least. That’ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it’s needed. With Regards, -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for a new bank. I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches, Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead batteries are on the same string. Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would cause. Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out. With Regards, -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 4 17:43:28 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2023 14:43:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: <34B7458C-6D12-44E1-8ADD-1165632FE2DC@mavericksolar.com> References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> <34B7458C-6D12-44E1-8ADD-1165632FE2DC@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: This just went up on the Schneider website thanks to Eric Bentsen. A complete guide on how to do this with a Samsung tablet https://solar.se.com/us/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2022/02/Tablet-Setup-for-InsightLocal-e-Guide.pdf It is under the Insight down loads at the bottom of page. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-03 7:28 pm, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > The key word there is Cobbled. The off grid or grid interactive > (battery backup in case of grid down) world really needs to rely on a > smart phone? > > Why couldn't Schnieder go the extra step and put a display "with enough > memory" to support legacy and XW Pro equipment on the Insight product > family. I.E. Cerbo GX with display from Victron. Schneider has all > these cheap Chinese all in one product competition with display screens > built in and some other products like the most excellent Outback > Radian that has yet to delete the Simple Man's display. > > I understand the potential semiconductor shortage. I just hope > Schneider can balance their approach. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > >> On Apr 3, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > >> Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled >> together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. >> I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. >> I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is >> basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart >> usingneither WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a >> wall mount for the tablet >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> Date: Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM >> To: RE-wrenches; >> Cc: Mac Lewis; >> Subject:[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI >> onsite for non-savvy consumers? >> >> Thanks! >> -- >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 4 19:21:20 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 17:21:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84043ac7-627a-a1fc-fd0b-a856c6e5c760@solarray.com> So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to charge equally, with essentially no BMS.  Its not just max strings, but max # of cells, and that's double my maximum. You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of how long L16s will last.  If the customer is barely using the available capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this case, I think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into using batteries for as long as possible as well, but customer and installer suffering come into play, as well as the fact they'll use much more water at the end of life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage. Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on another 2 years of service.  My guess is that you will probably have more cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty replacements.  Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells are going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop) Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially LVD) can be tricky with older inverters.  I had to use the aux out on the CC to switch off the inverters.  IF the inverters are Outback, they have a remote switch, if its something else, you might have to actually switch off a relay on the AC output. Ray On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a > different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I > researched it and asked my peers. > > The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really > want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls > under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years > out of the bank before planning to replace. > > Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays > prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. > > Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible > (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best > option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don’t want a > client with essentially nothing available until we can get a > replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at > least. That’ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at > Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will > see what changes in the market by the time it’s needed. > > With Regards, > > -- > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank > > 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready > for a new bank. > > I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to > 10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. > > Good Luck! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/* > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net* > *text 209 813 0060* > > On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have > given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated > warranty. > > The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls > batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA > batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going > to get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to > pay for freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by > getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the > batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back > in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way > drive to swap the batteries) > > Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like > this? > > 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both > dead batteries are on the same string. > > Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. > > The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. > (they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance > seriously) > > I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to > let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know > what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different > brand. In my head, I don’t see a big issue, even if they are sub > par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the > same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m > unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other > batteries would cause. > > Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give > them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to > lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out. > > With Regards, > > -- > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Apr 4 19:42:08 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2023 16:42:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: <84043ac7-627a-a1fc-fd0b-a856c6e5c760@solarray.com> References: <84043ac7-627a-a1fc-fd0b-a856c6e5c760@solarray.com> Message-ID: <4a6966e84ce50e6b7c40b126f219f99f@sti.net> Hurts my head ! Agree that you will have more trips to this house after the next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more years. All of the wiring is good, clean, and tight? Who really knows how long it could last? Probably fine thru summer and fall. Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of capacity choices there from Rolls and others. Almost Cheers time ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to > charge equally, with essentially no BMS. Its not just max strings, but > max # of cells, and that's double my maximum. > > You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of > how long L16s will last. If the customer is barely using the available > capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this > case, I think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into using > batteries for as long as possible as well, but customer and installer > suffering come into play, as well as the fact they'll use much more > water at the end of life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage. > > Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on > another 2 years of service. My guess is that you will probably have > more cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty > replacements. Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells are > going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop) > > Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially > LVD) can be tricky with older inverters. I had to use the aux out on > the CC to switch off the inverters. IF the inverters are Outback, they > have a remote switch, if its something else, you might have to actually > switch off a relay on the AC output. > > Ray > > On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a > different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I > researched it and asked my peers. > > The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really > want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls > under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years > out of the bank before planning to replace. > > Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays > prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. > > Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible > (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best > option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a > client with essentially nothing available until we can get a > replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at > least. That'll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at > Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will > see what changes in the market by the time it's needed. > > With Regards, > > -- > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank > > 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready > for a new bank. > > I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to > 10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. > > Good Luck! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up > the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. > > The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls > batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA > batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to > get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for > freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the > batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we > provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do > need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the > batteries) > > Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? > > 3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead > batteries are on the same string. > > Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. > > The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they > baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) > > I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let > them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the > chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my > head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will > likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest > of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm unsure if there are any more > subtle issue that these other batteries would cause. > > Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a > fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when > the whole battery bank finally gives out. > > With Regards, > > -- > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 4 22:46:56 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:46:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: <4a6966e84ce50e6b7c40b126f219f99f@sti.net> References: <84043ac7-627a-a1fc-fd0b-a856c6e5c760@solarray.com> <4a6966e84ce50e6b7c40b126f219f99f@sti.net> Message-ID: <1f1c3efa-112a-b35b-f76b-6c5665358ba1@solarray.com> I highly recommend _against_ the 2v L16s.  You are not going to a better battery, or fewer cells; just the cells are wired internally, making it very difficult to assess each cell independently.  I trouble shot a system of Trojan 2 v L16s, that was only 2 years old, but was trying to run a large compound.  I had to use my infared camera to ID the dead cells, and there were plenty of them, but each individual"2v" battery had correct voltage. A system anywhere in this size range needs to go to real 2 v cells, like the HUP or other large format battery that is designed for what you are trying to do.  L16s are the equivalent of buying 4 VW bugs, when you really need one 3/4 ton Dodge. Do yourself and your customers a favor, and save the L16s for systems that require less than 800 AH.   Batteries are the number one source of failure and dissatisfaction off grid.  Don't cheap out. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 4/4/2023 5:42 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hurts my head !  Agree that you will have more trips to this house > after the next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more > years. All of the wiring is good, clean, and tight?  Who really knows > how long it could last? Probably fine thru summer and fall. > Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of > capacity choices there from Rolls and others. > Almost Cheers time ! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text > 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying >> to charge equally, with essentially no BMS. Its not just max strings, >> but max # of cells, and that's double my maximum. >> >> You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part >> of how long L16s will last.  If the customer is barely using the >> available capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but >> in this case, I think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm >> into using batteries for as long as possible as well, but customer >> and installer suffering come into play, as well as the fact they'll >> use much more water at the end of life, and cause a lot more >> corrosion damage. >> >> Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on >> another 2 years of service.  My guess is that you will probably have >> more cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty >> replacements.  Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells >> are going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop) >> >> Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially >> LVD) can be tricky with older inverters.  I had to use the aux out on >> the CC to switch off the inverters.  IF the inverters are Outback, >> they have a remote switch, if its something else, you might have to >> actually switch off a relay on the AC output. >> >> Ray >> >> On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a >>> different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I >>> researched it and asked my peers. >>> >>> The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really >>> want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two >>> Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful >>> years out of the bank before planning to replace. >>> >>> Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays >>> prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. >>> >>> Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible >>> (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best >>> option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a >>> client with essentially nothing available until we can get a >>> replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at >>> least. That'll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at >>> Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we >>> will see what changes in the market by the time it's needed. >>> >>> With Regards, >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Danny Young >>> >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 >>> >>> Engineering Team Lead >>> Solar Energy Solutions >>> >>> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | >>> Indianapolis >>> >>> 513-448-5176 (mobile) >>> >>> 877-312-7456 (Main Office) >>> >>> danny at sesre.com >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> *On Behalf Of >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank >>> >>> 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get >>> ready for a new bank. >>> >>> I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer >>> to 10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. >>> >>> Good Luck! >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> * >>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>> *text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have >>> given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated >>> warranty. >>> >>> The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non >>> Rolls batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form >>> factor FLA batteries from a local battery house for the same >>> price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that also means >>> they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they >>> could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, >>> and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add >>> the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something >>> off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) >>> >>> Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands >>> like this? >>> >>> 3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) >>> both dead batteries are on the same string. >>> >>> Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. >>> >>> The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. >>> (they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance >>> seriously) >>> >>> I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to >>> let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know >>> what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different >>> brand. In my head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub >>> par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the >>> same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm >>> unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other >>> batteries would cause. >>> >>> Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give >>> them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to >>> lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out. >>> >>> With Regards, >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Danny Young >>> >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 >>> >>> Engineering Team Lead >>> Solar Energy Solutions >>> >>> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | >>> Indianapolis >>> >>> 513-448-5176 (mobile) >>> >>> 877-312-7456 (Main Office) >>> >>> danny at sesre.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Wed Apr 5 17:26:04 2023 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2023 13:26:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank Message-ID: Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use _equal length conductors_ for all 3 strings you can get good results.  The main problem I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the customer with 72 cells to check and fill.  That's a lot of work if you don't have a watering system. I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a battery or 2.  Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get replacements - during the best of times. Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 48V system.   You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go.  That way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should be able to keep them limping along until the replacement battery(s) show up.  Need to check and _make sure_ your charge controller and inverter can charge at the slightly higher V but usually that's not a problem. Best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. greg at remotepowerinc.com Message: 1 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +0000 From: Daniel Young To:"offgridsolar at sti.net" , RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and asked my peers. The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before planning to replace. Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a client with essentially nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it?s needed. With Regards, -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Wed Apr 5 17:57:29 2023 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2023 13:57:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius Primo 3.8 with state 573 error code Message-ID: <3fefd7de-6062-14d9-b0c1-9b6956637da3@remotepowerinc.com> Bill, I've been in touch with Fronius on this.  It is listed as a "low temp" error code.  I got sick and the inverter/system is generating power as it should now so I'm just now following up. The Primo 3.8 has been running for 5 years and I'm sure has seen some cold temps but it was ~ 0F the day I was out there and saw the STATE 573 error code.  I've been in touch with Fronius Tech support.  When they get back with me with an explanation I'll post it here.  The Primo is rated to run at -40F.  Fairbanks used to see -40 in low lying areas a few weeks a year (in the 70's) but seldom these days.  This install is in the hills.  They usually are 10+ degrees warmer than town. Anyway, they _could have_ experienced -40 a time or 2 in the last 5 years but not this year for sure. No reason it shouldn't run at -40 imo.  That's why I read the spec sheets before installing inverters outdoors. Thanks, Greg Greg,             My Fronius manual goes up to a code 517 but no "higher".  I assume you're talking about an "IG".  The last Ph # I used for them was 810-220-4414. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 3/14/2023 8:11 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: Wrenches, I'm out of town and trying to help a customer with a STATE 573 error on a Fronius 3.8 kW inverter installed in 2017.  I looked on line and could find State codes but no "573". Customer sent me a photo of the screen and it's definitely 573 so not a typo.  If anyone has run into this before and can provide any guidance that would be great.  Also if you have a current phone # for Fronius Tech support that wouldn't hurt either. All the best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Apr 5 19:23:52 2023 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2023 19:23:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3928A068-F371-49CC-AECD-D28597E5F89C@swnl.net> I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many times on very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi voltage cut out settings, as this can be a real bummer having the system shut down in full sun. Another thing; IF you have battery strings, cables of equal length from each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to inverter or inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop as well as providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on internal resistance). I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is 2 volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah there heavy but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is always my choice. OR the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable battery Surrette has put out. After almost 30 + years of installing their batteries this one has been the best. They do have a EX series 2 Volt cell that has the same plate thickness as the 6 CS but I have had issues w/ them. IF you are using the EX 2 volt check the polarity PRIOR to installing them & mark the positive side. I have had the plastic covers installed incorrectly and it plays havoc on your install. Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can spot problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette warrantee Pit BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when Steve OKs a replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings. My $.02 TUMP > On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use equal length conductors for all 3 strings you can get good results. The main problem I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the customer with 72 cells to check and fill. That's a lot of work if you don't have a watering system. > > I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a battery or 2. Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get replacements - during the best of times. > > Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 48V system. You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go. That way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should be able to keep them limping along until the replacement battery(s) show up. Need to check and make sure your charge controller and inverter can charge at the slightly higher V but usually that's not a problem. > > Best, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > greg at remotepowerinc.com > > > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +0000 > From: Daniel Young > To: "offgridsolar at sti.net" , RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and asked my peers. > > The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before planning to replace. > > Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. > > Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a client with essentially nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it?s needed. > > With Regards, > -- > > Danny Young > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > danny at sesre.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 20:16:34 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2023 20:16:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP In-Reply-To: References: <1c03ekm7sr9oc9gtq7949i0h.1680574237118@email.lge.com> <34B7458C-6D12-44E1-8ADD-1165632FE2DC@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Dave, It looks like the dedicated tablet would occupy the Ethernet port of the gateway/facility. That would mean the installer would have to choose between having local system interface OR a solid Ethernet connection. I get that in many cases, the WiFi connection could allow for remote monitoring, but a solid LAN is always preferred. Am I interpreting this correctly? Kindly, Chris On Tue, Apr 4, 2023 at 5:43 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This just went up on the Schneider website thanks to Eric Bentsen. A > complete guide on how to do this with a Samsung tablet > > > https://solar.se.com/us/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2022/02/Tablet-Setup-for-InsightLocal-e-Guide.pdf > > It is under the Insight down loads at the bottom of page. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-04-03 7:28 pm, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > The key word there is Cobbled. The off grid or grid interactive (battery > backup in case of grid down) world really needs to rely on a smart phone? > > Why couldn't Schnieder go the extra step and put a display "with enough > memory" to support legacy and XW Pro equipment on the Insight product > family. I.E. Cerbo GX with display from Victron. Schneider has all these > cheap Chinese all in one product competition with display screens built in > and some other products like the most excellent Outback Radian that has > yet to delete the Simple Man's display. > > I understand the potential semiconductor shortage. I just hope Schneider > can balance their approach. > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > On Apr 3, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Eric Benstennof SE demoed a pretty slick replacement that he cobbled > together from off the shelf parts using a small tablet. > I saw it in Jan at an Alt-E installer conference. > I think I might have the details somewhere in my files, but it is > basically an inexpensive android tablet, a USB charging wart usingneither > WiFi or a USB type c Ethernet and power adaptwr and a wall mount for the > tablet > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Mon, Apr 3, 2023 7:31 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Mac Lewis; > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Phased out Schneider Electric SCP > > Hello Wrenches, > > Now that Schneider has phased out SCP, what are the options for a GUI > onsite for non-savvy consumers? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Apr 5 21:30:40 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2023 20:30:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: <3928A068-F371-49CC-AECD-D28597E5F89C@swnl.net> References: <3928A068-F371-49CC-AECD-D28597E5F89C@swnl.net> Message-ID: <001601d96827$6635b7b0$32a12710$@solarcentex.com> Just attended the NABCEP conference last week and took in CEU classes from Rolls and Midnite on battery charging and design. Just awesome classes and I walked away thinking the FLA were kind of like my old 7.3 Powerstroke diesel.I could work on them and could see when issues were developing. The lithium batteries are kind of like my 6.7 PSD. Great power, fast but when something happens with a BMS.no idea except to go to the manufacturer. Just wanted to share this after reading your awesome post. Scot From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Tump Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many times on very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi voltage cut out settings, as this can be a real bummer having the system shut down in full sun. Another thing; IF you have battery strings, cables of equal length from each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to inverter or inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop as well as providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on internal resistance). I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is 2 volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah there heavy but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is always my choice. OR the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable battery Surrette has put out. After almost 30 + years of installing their batteries this one has been the best. They do have a EX series 2 Volt cell that has the same plate thickness as the 6 CS but I have had issues w/ them. IF you are using the EX 2 volt check the polarity PRIOR to installing them & mark the positive side. I have had the plastic covers installed incorrectly and it plays havoc on your install. Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can spot problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette warrantee Pit BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when Steve OKs a replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings. My $.02 TUMP On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use equal length conductors for all 3 strings you can get good results. The main problem I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the customer with 72 cells to check and fill. That's a lot of work if you don't have a watering system. I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a battery or 2. Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get replacements - during the best of times. Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 48V system. You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go. That way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should be able to keep them limping along until the replacement battery(s) show up. Need to check and make sure your charge controller and inverter can charge at the slightly higher V but usually that's not a problem. Best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. greg at remotepowerinc.com Message: 1 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +0000 From: Daniel Young To: "offgridsolar at sti.net" , RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and asked my peers. The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before planning to replace. Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a client with essentially nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it?s needed. With Regards, -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org "We must all learn to live together as brothers, or we all will perish as fools." MLK Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Apr 5 22:35:57 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2023 19:35:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: <4a6966e84ce50e6b7c40b126f219f99f@sti.net> References: <84043ac7-627a-a1fc-fd0b-a856c6e5c760@solarray.com> <4a6966e84ce50e6b7c40b126f219f99f@sti.net> Message-ID: <1a7e19e8-c62c-0f8c-4c26-29041b1cc1d7@psln.com> Wrenches,             I feel compelled to chime in here.  Ten years ago, we installed 24, Rolls 2-KS-33P, 2 volt batteries for the shop. Though they were in a climate-controlled environment and maybe went to 50% SOC a dozen times over 10 years, usually ranged 75-100% SOC, we had the first failure just before 7 year warranty ended.  Unfortunately soon after there were two more failures we had to pay for, then most recently 2-3 more were very difficult to maintain good SGs and were sagging more in voltage when loaded. We tried several EQs and then deep discharges and hard and long re-charges to try and de-sulphate without luck.  So we recently replaced the pack.  We know how to care for FLA batteries, been doing so since the 80's.             I'm not faulting Rolls/Surrette, Steve Higgins tried to help, /maybe/ I should take some responsibility but the reason I am sharing this bad experience (I was expecting 15++ years from this kind of battery) is at some point after installation I checked the date codes and found there were 5, count them FIVE different dates, one or two of which were /more than a year old/ when purchased. Ouch.  Another expensive lesson learned.  Hopefully Rolls has a better handle now-a-days on their post manufacture supply chain.  Do you think the different distributors that sent their "back-in-the-corner" unclaimed 2-KS-33p's to my distributor to make up my pack had their 2V chargers floating the batteries all that time? me neither.             Moral of the story: *Check date codes* on that big beautiful pack of lead you're ready to load onto the truck. I'm now making it clear to our distributor that I won't be loading batteries on my truck unless dates codes match, which they did on the replacement SimpliPHI's.             Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 4/4/2023 4:42 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hurts my head !  Agree that you will have more trips to this house > after the next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more > years. All of the wiring is good, clean, and tight?  Who really knows > how long it could last? Probably fine thru summer and fall. > Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of > capacity choices there from Rolls and others. > Almost Cheers time ! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text > 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying >> to charge equally, with essentially no BMS. Its not just max strings, >> but max # of cells, and that's double my maximum. >> >> You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part >> of how long L16s will last.  If the customer is barely using the >> available capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but >> in this case, I think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm >> into using batteries for as long as possible as well, but customer >> and installer suffering come into play, as well as the fact they'll >> use much more water at the end of life, and cause a lot more >> corrosion damage. >> >> Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on >> another 2 years of service.  My guess is that you will probably have >> more cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty >> replacements.  Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells >> are going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop) >> >> Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially >> LVD) can be tricky with older inverters.  I had to use the aux out on >> the CC to switch off the inverters.  IF the inverters are Outback, >> they have a remote switch, if its something else, you might have to >> actually switch off a relay on the AC output. >> >> Ray >> >> On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a >>> different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I >>> researched it and asked my peers. >>> >>> The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really >>> want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two >>> Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful >>> years out of the bank before planning to replace. >>> >>> Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays >>> prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. >>> >>> Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible >>> (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best >>> option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a >>> client with essentially nothing available until we can get a >>> replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at >>> least. That'll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at >>> Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we >>> will see what changes in the market by the time it's needed. >>> >>> With Regards, >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Danny Young >>> >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 >>> >>> Engineering Team Lead >>> Solar Energy Solutions >>> >>> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | >>> Indianapolis >>> >>> 513-448-5176 (mobile) >>> >>> 877-312-7456 (Main Office) >>> >>> danny at sesre.com >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> *On Behalf Of >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank >>> >>> 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get >>> ready for a new bank. >>> >>> I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer >>> to 10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. >>> >>> Good Luck! >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* >>> *"we go where powerlines don't"* >>> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> * >>> *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * >>> *text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have >>> given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated >>> warranty. >>> >>> The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non >>> Rolls batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form >>> factor FLA batteries from a local battery house for the same >>> price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that also means >>> they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they >>> could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, >>> and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add >>> the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something >>> off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) >>> >>> Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands >>> like this? >>> >>> 3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) >>> both dead batteries are on the same string. >>> >>> Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. >>> >>> The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. >>> (they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance >>> seriously) >>> >>> I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to >>> let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know >>> what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different >>> brand. In my head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub >>> par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the >>> same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm >>> unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other >>> batteries would cause. >>> >>> Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give >>> them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to >>> lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out. >>> >>> With Regards, >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Danny Young >>> >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 >>> >>> Engineering Team Lead >>> Solar Energy Solutions >>> >>> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | >>> Indianapolis >>> >>> 513-448-5176 (mobile) >>> >>> 877-312-7456 (Main Office) >>> >>> danny at sesre.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 6 11:43:19 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2023 08:43:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: <001601d96827$6635b7b0$32a12710$@solarcentex.com> References: <3928A068-F371-49CC-AECD-D28597E5F89C@swnl.net> <001601d96827$6635b7b0$32a12710$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <4e3f003272caf3e9a2a1e300b9aa4954@sti.net> And the next step for hi reliability offgrid is to have both types of battery in there own independent inverter power systems. Just switch the DC bus from one power system or the other. I like the LFP just turned off sitting as a spare power system. You can rotate or do a monthly test like it is a genset. This is also a good way to use up the old flooded and retire it when it becomes useless and ready to recycle. Some LFP manufactures do provide a spare BMS but probably better to just have an extra battery at the offgrid home. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-05 6:30 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > Just attended the NABCEP conference last week and took in CEU classes > from Rolls and Midnite on battery charging and design. Just awesome > classes and I walked away thinking the FLA were kind of like my old 7.3 > Powerstroke diesel…I could work on them and could see when issues were > developing. The lithium batteries are kind of like my 6.7 PSD. Great > power, fast but when something happens with a BMS…no idea except to go > to the manufacturer. > > Just wanted to share this after reading your awesome post. > > Scot > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Tump via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:24 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Tump > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery > bank > > I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery > voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many > times on very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi > voltage cut out settings, as this can be a real bummer having the > system shut down in full sun. > > Another thing; IF you have battery strings, cables of equal length > from each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to > inverter or inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop > as well as providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on > internal resistance). > > I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is > 2 volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah > there heavy but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is > always my choice. OR the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable > battery Surrette has put out. After almost 30 + years of installing > their batteries this one has been the best. They do have a EX series 2 > Volt cell that has the same plate thickness as the 6 CS but I have had > issues w/ them. IF you are using the EX 2 volt check the polarity PRIOR > to installing them & mark the positive side. I have had the plastic > covers installed incorrectly and it plays havoc on your install. > > Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can > spot problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette > warrantee Pit BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when > Steve OKs a replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings. > > My $.02 TUMP > >> On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use equal length >> conductors for all 3 strings you can get good results. The main >> problem I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the >> customer with 72 cells to check and fill. That's a lot of work if you >> don't have a watering system. >> >> I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose >> a battery or 2. Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from >> the battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get >> replacements - during the best of times. >> >> Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a >> 48V system. You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go. >> That way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank >> should be able to keep them limping along until the replacement >> battery(s) show up. Need to check and make sure your charge >> controller and inverter can charge at the slightly higher V but >> usually that's not a problem. >> >> Best, >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> >> greg at remotepowerinc.com >> >> Message: 1 >> >> Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +0000 >> >> From: Daniel Young >> >> To: "offgridsolar at sti.net" , RE-wrenches >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank >> >> Message-ID: >> >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a >> different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I >> researched it and asked my peers. >> >> The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really >> want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls >> under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years >> out of the bank before planning to replace. >> >> Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays >> prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. >> >> Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible >> (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best >> option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a >> client with essentially nothing available until we can get a >> replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at >> least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at >> Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will >> see what changes in the market by the time it?s needed. >> >> With Regards, >> >> -- >> >> Danny Young >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 >> >> Engineering Team Lead >> >> Solar Energy Solutions >> >> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | >> Indianapolis >> >> 513-448-5176 (mobile) >> >> 877-312-7456 (Main Office) >> >> danny at sesre.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, > > or we all will perish as fools." > > MLK > >> Tump [2]3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net [3] >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ >> >> _ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California_ >> _ 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> _ >> >> _ __Blair "TUMP" May_ >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> _ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"_ >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> _ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org/ [2] blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net [3] blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 18:04:51 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2023 18:04:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: <4e3f003272caf3e9a2a1e300b9aa4954@sti.net> References: <3928A068-F371-49CC-AECD-D28597E5F89C@swnl.net> <001601d96827$6635b7b0$32a12710$@solarcentex.com> <4e3f003272caf3e9a2a1e300b9aa4954@sti.net> Message-ID: Multiple battery banks work well as long as you are consuming. When charging the charge parameters change. I’m running 8 Interstate L16’s, 1 Fortress e-flex, And 3 Simpliphi 3.8. With big switches between them. I was using all three but changing charge parameters on My two controllers and inverter got to be too much trouble. I ran all with lithium settings but I’m retiring the L16s and putting in a second eFlex. 2 eFlex or 3 Simpliphis do a great job replacing the 8. The 3 simpliphis will be leaving for their summer home at a fishing club. Hi John B On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 11:50 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > And the next step for hi reliability offgrid is to have both types of > battery in there own independent inverter power systems. Just switch the DC > bus from one power system or the other. I like the LFP just turned off > sitting as a spare power system. You can rotate or do a monthly test like > it is a genset. > > This is also a good way to use up the old flooded and retire it when it > becomes useless and ready to recycle. Some LFP manufactures do provide a > spare BMS but probably better to just have an extra battery at the offgrid > home. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-04-05 6:30 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Just attended the NABCEP conference last week and took in CEU classes from > Rolls and Midnite on battery charging and design. Just awesome classes and > I walked away thinking the FLA were kind of like my old 7.3 Powerstroke > diesel…I could work on them and could see when issues were developing. The > lithium batteries are kind of like my 6.7 PSD. Great power, fast but when > something happens with a BMS…no idea except to go to the manufacturer. > > > > Just wanted to share this after reading your awesome post. > > > > Scot > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Tump via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:24 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Tump > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery > bank > > > > I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery > voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many times on > very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi voltage cut out > settings, as this can be a real bummer having the system shut down in full > sun. > > Another thing; IF you have battery strings, cables of equal length from > each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to inverter or > inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop as well as > providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on internal resistance). > > I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is 2 > volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah there > heavy but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is always my > choice. OR the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable battery Surrette > has put out. After almost 30 + years of installing their batteries this one > has been the best. They do have a EX series 2 Volt cell that has the same > plate thickness as the 6 CS but I have had issues w/ them. IF you are using > the EX 2 volt check the polarity PRIOR to installing them & mark the > positive side. I have had the plastic covers installed incorrectly and it > plays havoc on your install. > > Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can > spot problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette > warrantee Pit BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when Steve > OKs a replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings. > > My $.02 TUMP > > > > On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use *equal length > conductors* for all 3 strings you can get good results. The main problem > I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the customer with 72 > cells to check and fill. That's a lot of work if you don't have a watering > system. > > I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a > battery or 2. Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the > battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get > replacements - during the best of times. > > Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 48V > system. You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go. That > way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should be able > to keep them limping along until the replacement battery(s) show up. Need > to check and *make sure* your charge controller and inverter can charge > at the slightly higher V but usually that's not a problem. > > Best, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > greg at remotepowerinc.com > > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +0000 > > From: Daniel Young > > To: "offgridsolar at sti.net" , RE-wrenches > > > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and asked my peers. > > > > The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before planning to replace. > > > > Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. > > > > Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a client with essentially nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it?s needed. > > > > With Regards, > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, > > or we all will perish as fools." > > MLK > > > > > > > > > > > > *Tump3391 at gmail.com <3391 at gmail.com>* *www.SWNL.net* > > Solarwinds Northernlights > > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Apr 7 19:06:02 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2023 16:06:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: <4e3f003272caf3e9a2a1e300b9aa4954@sti.net> References: <3928A068-F371-49CC-AECD-D28597E5F89C@swnl.net> <001601d96827$6635b7b0$32a12710$@solarcentex.com> <4e3f003272caf3e9a2a1e300b9aa4954@sti.net> Message-ID: Multiple battery banks of different topology work fine charging and discharging. Think about how you can do it and not how you can't. Any takers? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches [4] Thu, 06 Apr 2023 15:06:08 -0700 [5] Multiple battery banks work well as long as you are consuming. When charging the charge parameters change. I'm running 8 Interstate L16's, 1 Fortress e-flex, And 3 Simpliphi 3.8. With big switches between them. I was using all three but changing charge parameters on My two controllers and inverter got to be too much trouble. I ran all with lithium settings but I'm retiring the L16s and putting in a second eFlex. 2 eFlex or 3 Simpliphis do a great job replacing the 8. The 3 simpliphis will be leaving for their summer home at a fishing club. Hi John B On 2023-04-06 8:43 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > And the next step for hi reliability offgrid is to have both types of > battery in there own independent inverter power systems. Just switch > the DC bus from one power system or the other. I like the LFP just > turned off sitting as a spare power system. You can rotate or do a > monthly test like it is a genset. > > This is also a good way to use up the old flooded and retire it when it > becomes useless and ready to recycle. Some LFP manufactures do provide > a spare BMS but probably better to just have an extra battery at the > offgrid home. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2023-04-05 6:30 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Just attended the NABCEP conference last week and took in CEU classes > from Rolls and Midnite on battery charging and design. Just awesome > classes and I walked away thinking the FLA were kind of like my old 7.3 > Powerstroke diesel…I could work on them and could see when issues were > developing. The lithium batteries are kind of like my 6.7 PSD. Great > power, fast but when something happens with a BMS…no idea except to go > to the manufacturer. > > Just wanted to share this after reading your awesome post. > > Scot > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Tump via RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:24 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Tump > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery > bank > > I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery > voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many > times on very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi > voltage cut out settings, as this can be a real bummer having the > system shut down in full sun. > > Another thing; IF you have battery strings, cables of equal length > from each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to > inverter or inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop > as well as providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on > internal resistance). > > I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is > 2 volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah > there heavy but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is > always my choice. OR the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable > battery Surrette has put out. After almost 30 + years of installing > their batteries this one has been the best. They do have a EX series 2 > Volt cell that has the same plate thickness as the 6 CS but I have had > issues w/ them. IF you are using the EX 2 volt check the polarity PRIOR > to installing them & mark the positive side. I have had the plastic > covers installed incorrectly and it plays havoc on your install. > > Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can > spot problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette > warrantee Pit BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when > Steve OKs a replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings. > > My $.02 TUMP > > On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use equal length > conductors for all 3 strings you can get good results. The main > problem I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the > customer with 72 cells to check and fill. That's a lot of work if you > don't have a watering system. > > I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a > battery or 2. Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the > battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get > replacements - during the best of times. > > Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a > 48V system. You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go. > That way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should > be able to keep them limping along until the replacement battery(s) > show up. Need to check and make sure your charge controller and > inverter can charge at the slightly higher V but usually that's not a > problem. > > Best, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > greg at remotepowerinc.com > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +0000 > > From: Daniel Young > > To: "offgridsolar at sti.net" , RE-wrenches > > > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a > different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I > researched it and asked my peers. > > The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really > want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls > under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years > out of the bank before planning to replace. > > Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays > prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. > > Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible > (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best > option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a > client with essentially nothing available until we can get a > replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at > least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at > Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will > see what changes in the market by the time it?s needed. > > With Regards, > > -- > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > "We must all learn to live together as brothers, > > or we all will perish as fools." > > MLK > > Tump [2]3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net [3] > > Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ > > _ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California_ > _ 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > _ > > _ __Blair "TUMP" May_ > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > _ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"_ > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > _ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org/ [2] blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net [3] blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ [4] https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org&q=from:%22John+Blittersdorf+via+RE%5C-wrenches%22 [5] https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org&q=date:20230406 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 14:13:29 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 18:13:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: <1a7e19e8-c62c-0f8c-4c26-29041b1cc1d7@psln.com> References: <84043ac7-627a-a1fc-fd0b-a856c6e5c760@solarray.com> <4a6966e84ce50e6b7c40b126f219f99f@sti.net> <1a7e19e8-c62c-0f8c-4c26-29041b1cc1d7@psln.com> Message-ID: Here’s my two cents, If you do end up putting in two new batteries, and you leave everything wired the way it is, you’d better really watch the rest of the batteries that are in that string. The new batteries will have a lower internal resistance, so the two strings that are all old batteries will have a lower current. This means they charge much more slowly, and the one string that has the two new batteries in it will charge much more quickly. This increased current in the one string often results in overheating of the weakest cells that are in the same string with the new cells. While charging, the old batteries that are in the same string as the new batteries will have a higher voltage because of this internal resistance. The worst cells will get the hottest, then the heat will cause the internal resistance to increase, which will cause more heat. The batteries can seem good at first, but after a little while, this cycle can get dangerous. The last time that one of my clients tried this maneuver of replacing two “bad” L16s in the bank of otherwise “good” L16s, the plastic started melting and I believe it was close to a catastrophe. Unless you’re running a laboratory experiment, I strongly recommend never mixing all the new batteries. Make sure you are fully aware of the hazards, do you know what to expect in terms of internal resistance is changing the charging characteristics. Best of luck, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Apr 5, 2023, at 7:34 PM, frenergy via RE-wrenches wrote:  Wrenches, I feel compelled to chime in here. Ten years ago, we installed 24, Rolls 2-KS-33P, 2 volt batteries for the shop. Though they were in a climate-controlled environment and maybe went to 50% SOC a dozen times over 10 years, usually ranged 75-100% SOC, we had the first failure just before 7 year warranty ended. Unfortunately soon after there were two more failures we had to pay for, then most recently 2-3 more were very difficult to maintain good SGs and were sagging more in voltage when loaded. We tried several EQs and then deep discharges and hard and long re-charges to try and de-sulphate without luck. So we recently replaced the pack. We know how to care for FLA batteries, been doing so since the 80's. I'm not faulting Rolls/Surrette, Steve Higgins tried to help, maybe I should take some responsibility but the reason I am sharing this bad experience (I was expecting 15++ years from this kind of battery) is at some point after installation I checked the date codes and found there were 5, count them FIVE different dates, one or two of which were more than a year old when purchased. Ouch. Another expensive lesson learned. Hopefully Rolls has a better handle now-a-days on their post manufacture supply chain. Do you think the different distributors that sent their "back-in-the-corner" unclaimed 2-KS-33p's to my distributor to make up my pack had their 2V chargers floating the batteries all that time? me neither. Moral of the story: Check date codes on that big beautiful pack of lead you're ready to load onto the truck. I'm now making it clear to our distributor that I won't be loading batteries on my truck unless dates codes match, which they did on the replacement SimpliPHI's. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 4/4/2023 4:42 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: Hurts my head ! Agree that you will have more trips to this house after the next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more years. All of the wiring is good, clean, and tight? Who really knows how long it could last? Probably fine thru summer and fall. Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of capacity choices there from Rolls and others. Almost Cheers time ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to charge equally, with essentially no BMS. Its not just max strings, but max # of cells, and that's double my maximum. You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of how long L16s will last. If the customer is barely using the available capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this case, I think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into using batteries for as long as possible as well, but customer and installer suffering come into play, as well as the fact they'll use much more water at the end of life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage. Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on another 2 years of service. My guess is that you will probably have more cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty replacements. Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells are going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop) Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially LVD) can be tricky with older inverters. I had to use the aux out on the CC to switch off the inverters. IF the inverters are Outback, they have a remote switch, if its something else, you might have to actually switch off a relay on the AC output. Ray On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and asked my peers. The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before planning to replace. Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading. Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a client with essentially nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at least. That'll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it's needed. With Regards, -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for a new bank. I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches, Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? 3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead batteries are on the same string. Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would cause. Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out. With Regards, -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 [https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free.www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Apr 10 19:38:14 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 16:38:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ski-ark without batteries Message-ID: Friends: Can the Sol-ark 15 be installed without batteries in grid-tie mode? I have been told the answer is yes but I’d like confirmation. Thanks in advance. William Miller -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 19:54:42 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 19:54:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <84043ac7-627a-a1fc-fd0b-a856c6e5c760@solarray.com> <4a6966e84ce50e6b7c40b126f219f99f@sti.net> <1a7e19e8-c62c-0f8c-4c26-29041b1cc1d7@psln.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 2:14 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Here’s my two cents, > > If you do end up putting in two new batteries, and you leave everything > wired the way it is, you’d better really watch the rest of the batteries > that are in that string. The new batteries will have a lower internal > resistance, so the two strings that are all old batteries will have a lower > current. This means they charge much more slowly, and the one string that > has the two new batteries in it will charge much more quickly. This > increased current in the one string often results in overheating of the > weakest cells that are in the same string with the new cells. While > charging, the old batteries that are in the same string as the new > batteries will have a higher voltage because of this internal resistance. > > The worst cells will get the hottest, then the heat will cause the > internal resistance to increase, which will cause more heat. The batteries > can seem good at first, but after a little while, this cycle can get > dangerous. The last time that one of my clients tried this maneuver of > replacing two “bad” L16s in the bank of otherwise “good” L16s, the plastic > started melting and I believe it was close to a catastrophe. > > Unless you’re running a laboratory experiment, I strongly recommend never > mixing all the new batteries. Make sure you are fully aware of the hazards, > do you know what to expect in terms of internal resistance is changing the > charging characteristics. > > Best of luck, > Kienan > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC* > > *Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)* > > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * > > *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* > > *www.distribution.solar* > > On Apr 5, 2023, at 7:34 PM, frenergy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Wrenches, > > I feel compelled to chime in here. Ten years ago, we > installed 24, Rolls 2-KS-33P, 2 volt batteries for the shop. Though they > were in a climate-controlled environment and maybe went to 50% SOC a dozen > times over 10 years, usually ranged 75-100% SOC, we had the first failure > just before 7 year warranty ended. Unfortunately soon after there were two > more failures we had to pay for, then most recently 2-3 more were very > difficult to maintain good SGs and were sagging more in voltage when > loaded. We tried several EQs and then deep discharges and hard and long > re-charges to try and de-sulphate without luck. So we recently replaced > the pack. We know how to care for FLA batteries, been doing so since the > 80's. > > I'm not faulting Rolls/Surrette, Steve Higgins tried to help, > *maybe* I should take some responsibility but the reason I am sharing > this bad experience (I was expecting 15++ years from this kind of battery) > is at some point after installation I checked the date codes and found > there were 5, count them FIVE different dates, one or two of which were *more > than a year old* when purchased. Ouch. Another expensive lesson > learned. Hopefully Rolls has a better handle now-a-days on their post > manufacture supply chain. Do you think the different distributors that > sent their "back-in-the-corner" unclaimed 2-KS-33p's to my distributor to > make up my pack had their 2V chargers floating the batteries all that time? > me neither. > > Moral of the story: *Check date codes* on that big beautiful > pack of lead you're ready to load onto the truck. I'm now making it clear > to our distributor that I won't be loading batteries on my truck unless > dates codes match, which they did on the replacement SimpliPHI's. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 4/4/2023 4:42 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hurts my head ! Agree that you will have more trips to this house after > the next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more years. All of > the wiring is good, clean, and tight? Who really knows how long it could > last? Probably fine thru summer and fall. > > Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of capacity > choices there from Rolls and others. > > Almost Cheers time ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to > charge equally, with essentially no BMS. Its not just max strings, but max > # of cells, and that's double my maximum. > > You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of how > long L16s will last. If the customer is barely using the available > capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this case, I > think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into using batteries > for as long as possible as well, but customer and installer suffering come > into play, as well as the fact they'll use much more water at the end of > life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage. > > Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on > another 2 years of service. My guess is that you will probably have more > cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty replacements. > Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells are going to start > failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop) > > Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially LVD) > can be tricky with older inverters. I had to use the aux out on the CC to > switch off the inverters. IF the inverters are Outback, they have a remote > switch, if its something else, you might have to actually switch off a > relay on the AC output. > > Ray > On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a > different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I > researched it and asked my peers. > > > > The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want > to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the > prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank > before planning to replace. > > > > Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. > So he knows roughly where he is heading. > > > > Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree > that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply > because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a client with essentially > nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 > strings, they can make due at least. That'll go out the window with Lithium > though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this > client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it's needed. > > > > With Regards, > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of *Dave Angelini > Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank > > > > 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for > a new bank. > > I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 > years life, so maybe there is better advice out there. > > > > Good Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the > ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty. > > > > The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls > batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries > from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new > Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net > result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No > freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add > the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the > 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries) > > > > Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this? > > > > 3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead > batteries are on the same string. > > Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark. > > The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they > baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously) > > > > I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them > shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are > of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don't see a > big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older > faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery > bank. But I'm unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other > batteries would cause. > > > > Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a > fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the > whole battery bank finally gives out. > > > > With Regards, > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_8343809753306198965_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Apr 11 16:19:59 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 16:19:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ed3f932-5bf9-4224-8b28-34694dc4e51f@entech-engineering.com> Yes, we just did one.  Chris On 4/10/2023 7:38 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > Can the Sol-ark 15 be installed without batteries in grid-tie mode? > > I have been told the answer is yes but I’d like confirmation. > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > -- > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 895-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 16:48:21 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 16:48:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries In-Reply-To: <7ed3f932-5bf9-4224-8b28-34694dc4e51f@entech-engineering.com> References: <7ed3f932-5bf9-4224-8b28-34694dc4e51f@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi William, I think my opinion would be yes, but why? We have a few no-battery installs, but they don’t preform well in grid outage scenarios. If the client is looking for future battery back-up, but not ready to invest just yet, it’s an option. Don’t expect seamless grid forming output with an outage. Also, don’t expect to connect a generator via Sol Ark for pass through during and outage. My $0.02 is to convince the client to tag on a battery, albeit minimal capacity. Kindly, Chris On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 4:22 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Yes, we just did one. Chris > On 4/10/2023 7:38 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > Can the Sol-ark 15 be installed without batteries in grid-tie mode? > > I have been told the answer is yes but I’d like confirmation. > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > -- > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 895-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 17:39:58 2023 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 16:39:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO Message-ID: Wrenches, As far out as the subject line might seem, a company in Italy has apparently developed a system for attaching PV arrays to flat roofs using strips of VELCRO . The potential advantages of this system seem hard to ignore: - lightweight - no ballast required (also, no mechanical attachments) - quick installation and easy assembly Has anyone ever encountered anything similar here in the states? Any opinions about the feasibility of this approach? Corey Shalanski Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 17:50:13 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 14:50:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Corey Yes it was a thing in California but soon fell off the radar, They were based or had a shop in Sacramento CA. It was mainly designed for BIPV but was adopted to framed panels, grounding is an issue, mounting of the electrical another. l have had bolted modules rip out of unirac in Hawaii during a hurricane so no velcro for me. I would also question the adhesive if it will take years of heat, water and the material it's adhered too. Fun times On Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:41 PM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > As far out as the subject line might seem, a company in Italy has > apparently developed a system for attaching PV arrays to flat roofs using > strips of VELCRO > > . > > The potential advantages of this system seem hard to ignore: > - lightweight > - no ballast required (also, no mechanical attachments) > - quick installation and easy assembly > > Has anyone ever encountered anything similar here in the states? Any > opinions about the feasibility of this approach? > > Corey Shalanski > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danny at sesre.com Tue Apr 11 18:00:24 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 22:00:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: “I would also question the adhesive if it will take years of heat, water and the material it's adhered too. “ That is the issue I found wit this. I installed hundreds of kW of a “not to be named” roofing manufacturers solar system that used Velcro years back. Lets just say we spent more hours carrying solar modules back on the roof after they blew off over the next 4 years than we did installing the original system (at least it felt like it). The Velcro to roof glue connection is what gave up every time. Biological growth under the hot modules I think really deteriorated the glue joint quickly. In case anyone is wondering, we used the roofers provided adhesive primer, rolled on adhesive, and did so under their direct supervision and sign off. That array has since been removed at the roofers expense. Every system is different, and materials science is changing all the time, maybe this is better? I would approach this with caution. -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2023 5:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jerry Shafer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO Wrenches, Corey Yes it was a thing in California but soon fell off the radar, They were based or had a shop in Sacramento CA. It was mainly designed for BIPV but was adopted to framed panels, grounding is an issue, mounting of the electrical another. l have had bolted modules rip out of unirac in Hawaii during a hurricane so no velcro for me. I would also question the adhesive if it will take years of heat, water and the material it's adhered too. Fun times On Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:41 PM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches, As far out as the subject line might seem, a company in Italy has apparently developed a system for attaching PV arrays to flat roofs using strips of VELCRO. The potential advantages of this system seem hard to ignore: - lightweight - no ballast required (also, no mechanical attachments) - quick installation and easy assembly Has anyone ever encountered anything similar here in the states? Any opinions about the feasibility of this approach? Corey Shalanski Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Tue Apr 11 18:16:56 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2023 18:16:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00eb01d96cc3$54844f40$fd8cedc0$@mindspring.com> Corey Thin film like Unisolar but with Velcro?? Hard to see it making wind requirements or lasting. Thx for the smile peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2023 5:40 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Corey Shalanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO Wrenches, As far out as the subject line might seem, a company in Italy has apparently developed a system for attaching PV arrays to flat roofs using strips of VELCRO . The potential advantages of this system seem hard to ignore: - lightweight - no ballast required (also, no mechanical attachments) - quick installation and easy assembly Has anyone ever encountered anything similar here in the states? Any opinions about the feasibility of this approach? Corey Shalanski Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Apr 12 09:30:38 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:30:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries In-Reply-To: References: <7ed3f932-5bf9-4224-8b28-34694dc4e51f@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <02a401d96d42$f8e1b170$eaa51450$@solarcentex.com> There is no backup if there are no batteries with a Sol-Ark. You just have a grid-tied inverter that is one step away from being a robust battery backup system. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2023 3:48 PM To: RE-wrenches ; cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Cc: Chris Sparadeo Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries Hi William, I think my opinion would be yes, but why? We have a few no-battery installs, but they don’t preform well in grid outage scenarios. If the client is looking for future battery back-up, but not ready to invest just yet, it’s an option. Don’t expect seamless grid forming output with an outage. Also, don’t expect to connect a generator via Sol Ark for pass through during and outage. My $0.02 is to convince the client to tag on a battery, albeit minimal capacity. Kindly, Chris On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 4:22 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Yes, we just did one. Chris On 4/10/2023 7:38 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Friends: Can the Sol-ark 15 be installed without batteries in grid-tie mode? I have been told the answer is yes but I’d like confirmation. Thanks in advance. William Miller -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 895-438-5600 www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Apr 12 10:13:45 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 07:13:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries In-Reply-To: <02a401d96d42$f8e1b170$eaa51450$@solarcentex.com> References: <7ed3f932-5bf9-4224-8b28-34694dc4e51f@entech-engineering.com> <02a401d96d42$f8e1b170$eaa51450$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I only wanted to respond to this: “Also, don’t expect to connect a generator via Sol Ark for pass through during and outage” Why not? In my experience SolArk work fine for generator backup, especially the 15K model which has 200A pass through. On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 6:30 AM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > There is no backup if there are no batteries with a Sol-Ark. You just have > a grid-tied inverter that is one step away from being a robust battery > backup system. > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 11, 2023 3:48 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches ; > cwarfel at entech-engineering.com > *Cc:* Chris Sparadeo > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries > > > > Hi William, > > > > I think my opinion would be yes, but why? We have a few no-battery > installs, but they don’t preform well in grid outage scenarios. If the > client is looking for future battery back-up, but not ready to invest just > yet, it’s an option. Don’t expect seamless grid forming output with an > outage. Also, don’t expect to connect a generator via Sol Ark for pass > through during and outage. > > > > My $0.02 is to convince the client to tag on a battery, albeit minimal > capacity. > > > > Kindly, > > > > Chris > > > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 4:22 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Yes, we just did one. Chris > > On 4/10/2023 7:38 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > > > Can the Sol-ark 15 be installed without batteries in grid-tie mode? > > > > I have been told the answer is yes but I’d like confirmation. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > -- > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 895-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Chris Sparadeo > > > > > > C_802-369-4458 > > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 10:26:38 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 10:26:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries In-Reply-To: References: <7ed3f932-5bf9-4224-8b28-34694dc4e51f@entech-engineering.com> <02a401d96d42$f8e1b170$eaa51450$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: David, According to Sol Ark engineers, the generator input terminals on the inverter need to see battery voltage in order to pass through power from Gen terminals to load terminals when the grid is not present. -Chris On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 10:14 AM david quattro via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, I only wanted to respond to this: > “Also, don’t expect to connect a generator via Sol Ark for pass through > during and outage” > Why not? In my experience SolArk work fine for generator backup, > especially the 15K model which has 200A pass through. > > > > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 6:30 AM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> There is no backup if there are no batteries with a Sol-Ark. You just >> have a grid-tied inverter that is one step away from being a robust battery >> backup system. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 11, 2023 3:48 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches ; >> cwarfel at entech-engineering.com >> *Cc:* Chris Sparadeo >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries >> >> >> >> Hi William, >> >> >> >> I think my opinion would be yes, but why? We have a few no-battery >> installs, but they don’t preform well in grid outage scenarios. If the >> client is looking for future battery back-up, but not ready to invest just >> yet, it’s an option. Don’t expect seamless grid forming output with an >> outage. Also, don’t expect to connect a generator via Sol Ark for pass >> through during and outage. >> >> >> >> My $0.02 is to convince the client to tag on a battery, albeit minimal >> capacity. >> >> >> >> Kindly, >> >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 4:22 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Yes, we just did one. Chris >> >> On 4/10/2023 7:38 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> >> >> Can the Sol-ark 15 be installed without batteries in grid-tie mode? >> >> >> >> I have been told the answer is yes but I’d like confirmation. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> -- >> >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 895-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Warfel >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > David Quattro > CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 > ph (415) 312-2661 > www.quattrosolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at sesre.com Wed Apr 12 10:51:38 2023 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:51:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO In-Reply-To: <00eb01d96cc3$54844f40$fd8cedc0$@mindspring.com> References: <00eb01d96cc3$54844f40$fd8cedc0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: We used to see Unisolar go to market with hook and loop attachments. Never installed any myself but there were definitely a number of those systems installed. In fact, we were hired to remove a decade-old hail damaged array from a school in 2020 – roughly 200 kW. The hook and loop attachment method was mostly successful but had failed in a few areas resulting in edges coming up a bit and ponding on the laminates. Other failures to the modules were as significant as hook and loop failures. Far from the worst array I’ve seen. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 859-312-7456 (Office) 877-312-7456 (General) matt at sesre.com Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com [cid:image006.png at 01D96D2C.C0E7B6E0] [cid:image007.png at 01D96D2C.C0E7B6E0] [cid:image008.png at 01D96D2C.C0E7B6E0] [cid:image009.png at 01D96D2C.C0E7B6E0] [cid:image010.png at 01D96D2C.C0E7B6E0] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2023 6:17 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: pgiroux at mindspring.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO Corey Thin film like Unisolar but with Velcro?? Hard to see it making wind requirements or lasting. Thx for the smile peter From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2023 5:40 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Corey Shalanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO Wrenches, As far out as the subject line might seem, a company in Italy has apparently developed a system for attaching PV arrays to flat roofs using strips of VELCRO. The potential advantages of this system seem hard to ignore: - lightweight - no ballast required (also, no mechanical attachments) - quick installation and easy assembly Has anyone ever encountered anything similar here in the states? Any opinions about the feasibility of this approach? Corey Shalanski Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 4219 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 3646 bytes Desc: image007.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 5367 bytes Desc: image008.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 3137 bytes Desc: image009.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 3114 bytes Desc: image010.png URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 12 11:23:01 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:23:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-ark without batteries Message-ID: <8ccdf1efda85b45251870b3122f390d5@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Thanks for the replies on the subject. I was impressed that Sol-ark got back to me the next day and confirmed the answer is yes. We are well aware of the limitations of installing without batteries. The option provides several benefits, including meeting a filing deadline without being forced to pick a battery model and allowing the expense of batteries to be delayed until the budget is in place. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 17:34:13 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:34:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase failure Message-ID: Hi all I’m just starting to try and figure out a failed enphase system that was just noticed to be off line a few days ago. 12 x IQ7A 400 watt panels The install is 20’ from the main transformer/load center. 1000 amp commercial panel There is no monitoring because they couldn’t get cat 5 to it and they won’t allow wifi as it’s on federal land. Ground mount Installed 5/21 Failed 10/22 240vac at the trunk cable connection points where the inverter connects All inverters show orange LED meaning no communication. All of the inverters don’t work. Does anyone have any ideas? I’m sort of stumped how all 12 inverters are broken? Thanks Jay From rick at solshineenergy.com Wed Apr 12 17:37:55 2023 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 17:37:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, What’re you seeing with the Enphase Toolkit? rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Apr 12, 2023, at 5:35 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all > > I’m just starting to try and figure out a failed enphase system that was just noticed to be off line a few days ago. > > 12 x IQ7A > 400 watt panels > The install is 20’ from the main transformer/load center. 1000 amp commercial panel > > There is no monitoring because they couldn’t get cat 5 to it and they won’t allow wifi as it’s on federal land. > > Ground mount > > Installed 5/21 > Failed 10/22 > > 240vac at the trunk cable connection points where the inverter connects > > All inverters show orange LED meaning no communication. > > All of the inverters don’t work. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > I’m sort of stumped how all 12 inverters are broken? > > Thanks > > Jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 09:00:39 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 07:00:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A follow up on this I talked to a buddy at a large company that installs enphase. He said the issue is that the firmware fails without the web for updates. He’s seen it lots of times. Which means this project will have to get web connected to hopefully fix it. I haven’t found in the instructions or warranty that web connection is mandatory, but maybe I missed it. Jay > On Apr 12, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > I’m just starting to try and figure out a failed enphase system that was just noticed to be off line a few days ago. > > 12 x IQ7A > 400 watt panels > The install is 20’ from the main transformer/load center. 1000 amp commercial panel > > There is no monitoring because they couldn’t get cat 5 to it and they won’t allow wifi as it’s on federal land. > > Ground mount > > Installed 5/21 > Failed 10/22 > > 240vac at the trunk cable connection points where the inverter connects > > All inverters show orange LED meaning no communication. > > All of the inverters don’t work. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > I’m sort of stumped how all 12 inverters are broken? > > Thanks > > Jay > > > > > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Apr 13 17:27:46 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:27:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's always the Cellular connection option (if available there). Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 9:01 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > A follow up on this > > I talked to a buddy at a large company that installs enphase. > > He said the issue is that the firmware fails without the web for updates. > He’s seen it lots of times. > > Which means this project will have to get web connected to hopefully fix > it. > > I haven’t found in the instructions or warranty that web connection is > mandatory, but maybe I missed it. > > Jay > > > > > On Apr 12, 2023, at 3:34 PM, Jay wrote: > > > > Hi all > > > > I’m just starting to try and figure out a failed enphase system that was > just noticed to be off line a few days ago. > > > > 12 x IQ7A > > 400 watt panels > > The install is 20’ from the main transformer/load center. 1000 amp > commercial panel > > > > There is no monitoring because they couldn’t get cat 5 to it and they > won’t allow wifi as it’s on federal land. > > > > Ground mount > > > > Installed 5/21 > > Failed 10/22 > > > > 240vac at the trunk cable connection points where the inverter connects > > > > All inverters show orange LED meaning no communication. > > > > All of the inverters don’t work. > > > > Does anyone have any ideas? > > I’m sort of stumped how all 12 inverters are broken? > > > > Thanks > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Thu Apr 13 20:00:10 2023 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 20:00:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Installers in Nazareth, PA? Message-ID: My cousin lives in Nazareth, PA and is ready to go solar. Any reputable installers serve that area? Thanks in advance, Nik -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 nponzio at buildingenergyus.com http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Apr 14 11:02:49 2023 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:02:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Installers in Nazareth, PA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nik - Paradise Energy Solutions would be a good choice for that area. https://www.paradisesolarenergy.com/ Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon Solar Academy Manager | SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy website Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English [cid:image001.png at 01D96EAF.998F5560] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Nik Ponzio, Building Energy via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2023 6:00 PM To: RE Marketing for home scale RE industry ; RE-wrenches Cc: Nik Ponzio, Building Energy Subject: [RE-wrenches] Installers in Nazareth, PA? My cousin lives in Nazareth, PA and is ready to go solar. Any reputable installers serve that area? Thanks in advance, Nik -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 nponzio at buildingenergyus.com http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 70730 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 11:11:30 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 09:11:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Free sunpump core Message-ID: <65645BA7-FD4D-4D1E-8714-D7CFB6A19752@gmail.com> Hi all I inherited a sunpump model SDS-t-128 It just a core at this point, needs a complete rebuild. If anyone wants it contact me offsite. Just shipping charge. Jay From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 17:03:08 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 17:03:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience Message-ID: Hi All, I am looking to upgrade an offgrid client's battery bank from 2-volt Rolls KS17s to LiFePO4 batteries. I'm basically looking at one Fortress eVault Max cabinet vs. a HomeGrid 4 stack option. I have used the eVault Maxs before, and generally like them. The 2 options are relatively equivalent cost and size. The advantage of the eVault is that I've used them with good success several times, and they have a better listed warranty (6,000 cycles vs. 4,000, slightly more favorable end of life capacity retention). The reason I am considering the HomeGrid is because the promise of more incremental increases if that becomes a need (4.8 kWh blocks vs. 18.5 kWh) and the promised ease of adding up to another 4 blocks with apparently little or no effort compared to the need for a whole other large battery connection. These will be matched up to an existing Sol-Ark 12k inverter. If anyone has any experience with the HomeGrid (positive or negative), or experience with both brands, I'd love to hear any feedback. I hate installing equipment I haven't used before! 😕 Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sat Apr 15 10:49:10 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 14:49:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, I don't have experience with HomeGrid, but I have a well respected friend (Jason Lerner) who loves them. I have had awesome experiences with Fortress, and I have been looking for a chance to try HomeGrid as well. I think the stack idea is really cool!! I know that this is extremely nit-picky... The only thing I've seen so far that I don't like about HomeGrid is that they use 15 cells in series instead of the standard 16 cells. This just means that the voltages will be lower than what I'm used to, and amperage will be a little higher. It's not a big deal, everything will still work great, but I like the higher voltage of a 16 cell bank. I just have all the numbers memorized for a 16 cell battery bank, and while you should always double check the manufacturer's instructions, it's nice to know off the top of your head if the numbers are appoximately correct. When Fortress released their new inverterter that's essentially the same as the Solark (comes from the same factory), Solark got mad and they pushed out a new non-voluntary firmware update that broke the Modbus communication with Fortress. People didn't even know that the Firmware had changed. All they knew is that suddenly, their system wasn't working and it was shutting down randomly. It worked one day, didn't work the next. Fortress made a new firmware to communicate with Solark via canbus instead, so everything is working great again now. I don't know if Solark is finished with their vendeta against Fortress, but if Solark figures out a way to cause trouble again, then anyone with a Fortress-Solark combo could experience a coms disruption again... I really don't believe this was an accident on Solark's part. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Solark isn't mad at HomeGrid right now, so that might be a better bet. I personally don't use Solark. I'm leary of a company who pushes out Firmware updates that break things. One question, does HomeGrid officially support combining new batteries with old batteries? Fortress does not, they say in their documentation that you shouldn't mix different ages of batteries together. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that it should actually be fine, but the SOC will be different on the different ages of batteries... particularly when the batteries are between 30% and 80%. They'll be more tight with eachother near the top and the bottom of their ranges, but they'll drift in the middle. So I think it's fine to mix them like that, but I'm wondering if HomeGrid specifically says it's okay or if they specifically say not to do it? Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 3:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience Hi All, I am looking to upgrade an offgrid client's battery bank from 2-volt Rolls KS17s to LiFePO4 batteries. I'm basically looking at one Fortress eVault Max cabinet vs. a HomeGrid 4 stack option. I have used the eVault Maxs before, and generally like them. The 2 options are relatively equivalent cost and size. The advantage of the eVault is that I've used them with good success several times, and they have a better listed warranty (6,000 cycles vs. 4,000, slightly more favorable end of life capacity retention). The reason I am considering the HomeGrid is because the promise of more incremental increases if that becomes a need (4.8 kWh blocks vs. 18.5 kWh) and the promised ease of adding up to another 4 blocks with apparently little or no effort compared to the need for a whole other large battery connection. These will be matched up to an existing Sol-Ark 12k inverter. If anyone has any experience with the HomeGrid (positive or negative), or experience with both brands, I'd love to hear any feedback. I hate installing equipment I haven't used before! 😕 Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ [https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1MQF8aTcFNnBR59ia5JAm1DsPHCxzNkPx&export=download] Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 11:02:59 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 09:02:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One nice thing about the 15 cell vs the 16 cell is that the LBCO settings for older inverters will work fine. I haven't used HomeGrid yet, but it's a good advantage for drop-in replacements with older inverters. I've used a Chinese battery called FNS for this reason. It operates between 47V and 51.7V. Seems to work very well if you can keep all devices calibrated. Enjoy the weekend! On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 8:49 AM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Howie, > > I don't have experience with HomeGrid, but I have a well respected friend > (Jason Lerner) who loves them. > > I have had awesome experiences with Fortress, and I have been looking for > a chance to try HomeGrid as well. I think the stack idea is really cool!! > > I know that this is extremely nit-picky... The only thing I've seen so far > that I don't like about HomeGrid is that they use 15 cells in series > instead of the standard 16 cells. This just means that the voltages will be > lower than what I'm used to, and amperage will be a little higher. It's not > a big deal, everything will still work great, but I like the higher voltage > of a 16 cell bank. I just have all the numbers memorized for a 16 cell > battery bank, and while you should always double check the manufacturer's > instructions, it's nice to know off the top of your head if the numbers are > appoximately correct. > > When Fortress released their new inverterter that's essentially the same > as the Solark (comes from the same factory), Solark got mad and they pushed > out a new non-voluntary firmware update that broke the Modbus communication > with Fortress. People didn't even know that the Firmware had changed. All > they knew is that suddenly, their system wasn't working and it was shutting > down randomly. It worked one day, didn't work the next. Fortress made a > new firmware to communicate with Solark via canbus instead, so everything > is working great again now. I don't know if Solark is finished with their > vendeta against Fortress, but if Solark figures out a way to cause trouble > again, then anyone with a Fortress-Solark combo could experience a coms > disruption again... I really don't believe this was an accident on Solark's > part. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Solark isn't mad at > HomeGrid right now, so that might be a better bet. I personally don't use > Solark. I'm leary of a company who pushes out Firmware updates that break > things. > > One question, does HomeGrid officially support combining new batteries > with old batteries? Fortress does not, they say in their documentation that > you shouldn't mix different ages of batteries together. I could be wrong, > but my understanding is that it should actually be fine, but the SOC will > be different on the different ages of batteries... particularly when the > batteries are between 30% and 80%. They'll be more tight with eachother > near the top and the bottom of their ranges, but they'll drift in the > middle. So I think it's fine to mix them like that, but I'm wondering if > HomeGrid specifically says it's okay or if they specifically say not to do > it? > > Thanks, > Kienan > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC* > > *Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)* > > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * > > *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* > > *distribution.solar* > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, April 14, 2023 3:03 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Howie Michaelson > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience > > Hi All, > I am looking to upgrade an offgrid client's battery bank from 2-volt Rolls > KS17s to LiFePO4 batteries. I'm basically looking at one Fortress eVault > Max cabinet vs. a HomeGrid 4 stack option. I have used the eVault Maxs > before, and generally like them. The 2 options are relatively equivalent > cost and size. The advantage of the eVault is that I've used them with > good success several times, and they have a better listed warranty (6,000 > cycles vs. 4,000, slightly more favorable end of life capacity retention). > The reason I am considering the HomeGrid is because the promise of more > incremental increases if that becomes a need (4.8 kWh blocks vs. 18.5 kWh) > and the promised ease of adding up to another 4 blocks with apparently > little or no effort compared to the need for a whole other large battery > connection. These will be matched up to an existing Sol-Ark 12k inverter. > If anyone has any experience with the HomeGrid (positive or negative), or > experience with both brands, I'd love to hear any feedback. I hate > installing equipment I haven't used before! 😕 > Thanks, > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ * > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Apr 15 11:07:29 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 08:07:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie,             SimpliPhi also has the benefit of adding smaller KWhr batteries (3.8).  They have a ten year warranty but also say:" AmpliPHI and PHI batteries’ /expected/ cycle life rating is 10,000 cycles when a maximum of 80% DOD is maintained" Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 4/14/2023 2:03 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > I am looking to upgrade an offgrid client's battery bank from 2-volt > Rolls KS17s to LiFePO4 batteries.  I'm basically looking at one > Fortress eVault Max cabinet vs. a HomeGrid 4 stack option.  I have > used the eVault Maxs before, and generally like them.  The 2 options > are relatively equivalent cost and size.  The advantage of the eVault > is that I've used them with good success several times, and they have > a better listed warranty (6,000 cycles vs. 4,000, slightly more > favorable end of life capacity retention).  The reason I am > considering the HomeGrid is because the promise of more incremental > increases if that becomes a need (4.8 kWh blocks vs. 18.5 kWh) and the > promised ease of adding up to another 4 blocks with apparently little > or no effort compared to the need for a whole other large battery > connection.  These will be matched up to an existing Sol-Ark 12k > inverter. If anyone has any experience with the HomeGrid (positive or > negative), or experience with both brands, I'd love to hear any > feedback.  I hate installing equipment I haven't used before! 😕 > Thanks, > Howie > *Howie Michaelson > **Sun Catcher* > *****/NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > /** > **Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Apr 15 11:26:28 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2023 09:26:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002401d96fae$a6d611a0$f48234e0$@solarwork.com> I installed a 400AHR set of Home Grid on an existing grid OB Radian system replacing AGM batteries. I had to replace the FM 80 CC for an Fm 100 as the FM 80s were to sloppy on their finish voltage [the microprocessors are too slow]. I received 2 damaged [warped] Top sections with the BMS before I could complete the installation. The shipping boxes were stout & fine so I can only assume that the defect was factory based. HG sated that they open & check every battery box as it come in from China… Hopefully now they will check the BMS units too. Since completion though the system has been working smoothly as in no issues. Grounding straps on the left side secured the battery set together on the left, but the right side relies on gravity to keep the individual batteries nested which is interesting as the right side is where the battery interconnects are located. I would like to see a set of straps typ. Of the left side on the right side to tie the pack tight, literally someone could lift the right side up under load & cause a lead separation & major sparky event. No conduit box on the back just a couple of compression TA’s to secure the battery cable out to the inverter. Communication with Home Grid was very good & they sent me a com box to allow them to look in on the battery bank though with no internet on site that was a miss. Oh yeah the assumptions at the factory level. **Last item - they charge to a lower voltage setting than almost all other LI batteries so check as to whether your CC can stop that low. I think it was 52.4vdc? That said I am sure that I will install more sets of Home Grid batteries. Neat clean look finished. Dana Orzel - E - dana at solarwork.com - C - 208.721.7003 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2023 8:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kienan Maxfield Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience Howie, I don't have experience with HomeGrid, but I have a well respected friend (Jason Lerner) who loves them. I have had awesome experiences with Fortress, and I have been looking for a chance to try HomeGrid as well. I think the stack idea is really cool!! I know that this is extremely nit-picky... The only thing I've seen so far that I don't like about HomeGrid is that they use 15 cells in series instead of the standard 16 cells. This just means that the voltages will be lower than what I'm used to, and amperage will be a little higher. It's not a big deal, everything will still work great, but I like the higher voltage of a 16 cell bank. I just have all the numbers memorized for a 16 cell battery bank, and while you should always double check the manufacturer's instructions, it's nice to know off the top of your head if the numbers are appoximately correct. When Fortress released their new inverterter that's essentially the same as the Solark (comes from the same factory), Solark got mad and they pushed out a new non-voluntary firmware update that broke the Modbus communication with Fortress. People didn't even know that the Firmware had changed. All they knew is that suddenly, their system wasn't working and it was shutting down randomly. It worked one day, didn't work the next. Fortress made a new firmware to communicate with Solark via canbus instead, so everything is working great again now. I don't know if Solark is finished with their vendeta against Fortress, but if Solark figures out a way to cause trouble again, then anyone with a Fortress-Solark combo could experience a coms disruption again... I really don't believe this was an accident on Solark's part. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Solark isn't mad at HomeGrid right now, so that might be a better bet. I personally don't use Solark. I'm leary of a company who pushes out Firmware updates that break things. One question, does HomeGrid officially support combining new batteries with old batteries? Fortress does not, they say in their documentation that you shouldn't mix different ages of batteries together. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that it should actually be fine, but the SOC will be different on the different ages of batteries... particularly when the batteries are between 30% and 80%. They'll be more tight with eachother near the top and the bottom of their ranges, but they'll drift in the middle. So I think it's fine to mix them like that, but I'm wondering if HomeGrid specifically says it's okay or if they specifically say not to do it? Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) distribution.solar _____ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, April 14, 2023 3:03 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Howie Michaelson > Subject: [RE-wrenches] HomeGrid Battery Experience Hi All, I am looking to upgrade an offgrid client's battery bank from 2-volt Rolls KS17s to LiFePO4 batteries. I'm basically looking at one Fortress eVault Max cabinet vs. a HomeGrid 4 stack option. I have used the eVault Maxs before, and generally like them. The 2 options are relatively equivalent cost and size. The advantage of the eVault is that I've used them with good success several times, and they have a better listed warranty (6,000 cycles vs. 4,000, slightly more favorable end of life capacity retention). The reason I am considering the HomeGrid is because the promise of more incremental increases if that becomes a need (4.8 kWh blocks vs. 18.5 kWh) and the promised ease of adding up to another 4 blocks with apparently little or no effort compared to the need for a whole other large battery connection. These will be matched up to an existing Sol-Ark 12k inverter. If anyone has any experience with the HomeGrid (positive or negative), or experience with both brands, I'd love to hear any feedback. I hate installing equipment I haven't used before! 😕 Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Sun Apr 16 11:12:03 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 10:12:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder Message-ID: I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses. Any recommendations or testimonials? Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Apr 16 11:53:10 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 08:53:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1004bde2bb571c8260c73d73959948a0@mail.gmail.com> [image: Hammer | MC Systems] Plus [image: chiptoolz | Rafter Finder] Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Sunday, April 16, 2023 8:12 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Kristopher Schmid *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Truss finder I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses. Any recommendations or testimonials? Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15842 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 77014 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun Apr 16 14:29:30 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 11:29:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98285d25-69e9-ca9b-be82-9c65cb7c0118@psln.com> Kris,             Seems there was discussion about scanners before and I don't remember anyone saying they found one that was reliable especially with varying roofing materials.  Our current method is fist-thumping to get in the area of the rafter, drill exploratory hole then use the Chiptoolz rafter finder: https://www.amazon.com/Rafter-finder-Stud-Center-line-Locator/dp/B07DWFB3XC/ref=sr_1_2?crid=15LCS376NVC9U&keywords=rafter+finder+tool&qid=1681669313&sprefix=rafter+finder%2Caps%2C333&sr=8-2 Its stupid simple low-tech but works great.  Could be there is now a reliable hi-tech scanner that works in all cases. Bill On 4/16/2023 8:12 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches wrote: > I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses.  Any > recommendations or testimonials? > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Sun Apr 16 14:47:16 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 13:47:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks William! Laughed out loud at the first picture! Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 10:12 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses. Any > recommendations or testimonials? > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Apr 16 20:55:01 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:55:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery aging Message-ID: <66989BF6-9438-4A40-878A-71FACD1B6317@gmail.com> Hi all I hope some of you might know the answer to these questions. When a Lithium battery ages, is its voltage reduced? If so by how much? Is the C rate reduced? Is the only change lower amp hours? And finally how does the BMS determine this reduction? How does it know it’s lower capacity without doing a full to empty test? The questions arise from a conversation about adding new to old batteries. Just trying to learn more. Thanks Jay From danny at sesre.com Mon Apr 17 10:04:51 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 14:04:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can echo this, I did a fresh look into this last year and still have not found anything better than a hammer and feeler tool. We are considering going to a deck direct attachment like rooftech as well, which makes rafter locations less critical. We intend to still have crews find the rafter and place the attachments on the rafter as best they can without drilling holes. As the attachments still prefer to be located on a rafter to maximize snow load bearing capacity. Nice thing about the Rooftech is that if you miss the rafter location with the center holes, it’s entirely likely you will hit it with the side screws. In either case you are still sitting above the rafter and can expect to bear significant weight there instead of relying on the OSB/Plywood decking. -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Engineering Team Lead Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2023 2:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kristopher Schmid Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder Thanks William! Laughed out loud at the first picture! Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 10:12 AM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses. Any recommendations or testimonials? Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Apr 17 12:38:59 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:38:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <719fb3cb57386ecdd30d6ee486d13733@sti.net> Another reason why I never put solar panels on a dwelling roof. However, it seems crazy to be drilling holes to find the rafter still in 2023. $.02 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-17 7:04 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: > Can echo this, I did a fresh look into this last year and still have > not found anything better than a hammer and feeler tool. > > We are considering going to a deck direct attachment like rooftech as > well, which makes rafter locations less critical. We intend to still > have crews find the rafter and place the attachments on the rafter as > best they can without drilling holes. As the attachments still prefer > to be located on a rafter to maximize snow load bearing capacity. Nice > thing about the Rooftech is that if you miss the rafter location with > the center holes, it's entirely likely you will hit it with the side > screws. In either case you are still sitting above the rafter and can > expect to bear significant weight there instead of relying on the > OSB/Plywood decking. > > -- > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > Engineering Team Lead > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches > Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2023 2:47 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Kristopher Schmid > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder > > Thanks William! Laughed out loud at the first picture! > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com [1] > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 10:12 AM Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > >> I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses. Any >> recommendations or testimonials? >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com [1] >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.legacysolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Apr 17 12:44:23 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:44:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: <719fb3cb57386ecdd30d6ee486d13733@sti.net> References: <719fb3cb57386ecdd30d6ee486d13733@sti.net> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 15:31:10 2023 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 14:31:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kris, I started using the Bosch D-tect 150 a few years ago after a friend who had success with it recommended it. Works great on most roofs. It needs a smooth surface to roll on so I use a piece of Soladeck box. Older roofs with ply over roof boards don't scan very well so I sometimes go back to the mallet method. I also highly recommend the Chip Tool! Every installer should have one. It's best use in my opinion is for installing fall protection. I don't recommend it be used with a "micro flashing" though, as the pilot hole next to the rafter may only be barely covered by the "flashing". Best, Garrison Riegel Licensed Electrician NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ (c) 773-515-5168 (e) garrison at celestarsolar.com On Sun, Apr 16, 2023 at 10:13 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses. Any > recommendations or testimonials? > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Apr 17 16:13:03 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:13:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90e4bb39-5e6f-0e8c-8ce5-852a0754468c@entech-engineering.com> There are very good roof mounting systems that do not require finding the rafter. There was a thread on this within the past two weeks.  I understand the comfort of lagging into a rafter, but unless you can see the rafters from below, you'll never know 100% you did not come out the side of the rafter, especially if the rafter is checked. We use the hammer, two pilot holes to establish the rafter edge if we are attaching to the rafter. That is a cool tool though that I never saw before.  Chris On 4/17/2023 3:31 PM, Garrison via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Kris, > > I started using the Bosch D-tect 150 a few years ago after a friend > who had success with it recommended it.  Works great on most roofs.  > It needs a smooth surface to roll on so I use a piece of Soladeck > box.  Older roofs with ply over roof boards don't scan very well so I > sometimes go back to the mallet method. > > I also highly recommend the Chip Tool!  Every installer should have > one.  It's best use in my opinion is for installing fall protection.  > I don't recommend it be used with a "micro flashing" though, as the > pilot hole next to the rafter may only be barely covered by the > "flashing". > > Best, > > Garrison Riegel > Licensed Electrician > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > (c) 773-515-5168  (e) garrison at celestarsolar.com > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2023 at 10:13 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses.  Any > recommendations or testimonials? > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Apr 17 17:09:51 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 15:09:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2806aa5f-f436-d326-4d64-45d332b7d7f4@solarray.com> If the temperature is right, my IR camera can see the rafters. Best to check early on a cold morning with the heat on in the building.  Otherwise I'm of the William "Hammer" system persuasion.  Never found anything better. On 4/17/2023 1:31 PM, Garrison via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Kris, > > I started using the Bosch D-tect 150 a few years ago after a friend > who had success with it recommended it.  Works great on most roofs.  > It needs a smooth surface to roll on so I use a piece of Soladeck > box.  Older roofs with ply over roof boards don't scan very well so I > sometimes go back to the mallet method. > > I also highly recommend the Chip Tool!  Every installer should have > one.  It's best use in my opinion is for installing fall protection.  > I don't recommend it be used with a "micro flashing" though, as the > pilot hole next to the rafter may only be barely covered by the > "flashing". > > Best, > > Garrison Riegel > Licensed Electrician > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ > > (c) 773-515-5168  (e) garrison at celestarsolar.com > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2023 at 10:13 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses.  Any > recommendations or testimonials? > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 18 11:19:22 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 11:19:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder Message-ID: I understand that there is a tool that locates underground faults in buried cables. No one in our area has one. There are high tech cable tracers now, but they don't advertise that they can find underground breaks in wires. One company online had one that advertised that function. The entire kit came to $5 or $6K. Does anyone know where one can be rented. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From matt at getpimby.com Tue Apr 18 11:27:11 2023 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 11:27:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Drake, I've rented a set-up from my electrical supply house. I'd check to see if Scott Electric/Advantage Rental serves your part of Ohio. If memory serves, it is two pieces of equipment that you need. One to trace the line and a second to find the fault. -Matt On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 11:20 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I understand that there is a tool that locates underground faults in > buried cables. No one in our area has one. There are high tech cable > tracers now, but they don't advertise that they can find underground > breaks in wires. > > One company online had one that advertised that function. The entire kit > came to $5 or $6K. > > Does anyone know where one can be rented. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Tue Apr 18 12:02:49 2023 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 12:02:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy - AC coupled Message-ID: <51C354F1-8B86-4018-93BD-391FE7E309A7@sunwindpowerinc.com> Wondering if anyone has used the new 12kW Fortress Envy inverter in an AC coupled system yet and what sort of results you might have seen? I’ve heard that this inverter is made by the same manufacturer as SolArk. Don’t know if that’s true or not, but find it interesting. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2022 Logo Blue Tagline 2x no phone - small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23571 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Seal.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18157 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Apr 18 12:04:34 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 09:04:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure about rental sources in your area, but there are two options: 1) An underground cable fault locator, aka a "thumper," which only works on direct buried cables. It is a destructive test (at the fault location), and should only be performed when there is a known fault in order to locate it. It requires "walking" the cable run with a sensing device to hear the "thump" generated by the high current/high voltage induced on the line. 2) A time domain reflectometer (TDR), which is sort of like radar in that low energy signals are reflected by changes in cable impedance; it is non-destructive, but also not as accurate in terms of the location (providing a cable length to the fault, rather than a "thump" at the actual fault location) and typically cannot see higher resistance (≈>200 MΩ) faults that the thumper can. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:27 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Drake, > > I've rented a set-up from my electrical supply house. I'd check to see if > Scott Electric/Advantage Rental serves your part of Ohio. > > If memory serves, it is two pieces of equipment that you need. One to > trace the line and a second to find the fault. > > -Matt > > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 11:20 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I understand that there is a tool that locates underground faults in >> buried cables. No one in our area has one. There are high tech cable >> tracers now, but they don't advertise that they can find underground >> breaks in wires. >> >> One company online had one that advertised that function. The entire kit >> came to $5 or $6K. >> >> Does anyone know where one can be rented. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > 304-704-5943 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Apr 18 12:15:16 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 09:15:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress Envy - AC coupled In-Reply-To: <51C354F1-8B86-4018-93BD-391FE7E309A7@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <51C354F1-8B86-4018-93BD-391FE7E309A7@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: I have not tried the "new" Fortress yet but I certainly will. The Chinese manufacturer is called Deye. https://www.deyeinverter.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Deye.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 249292 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Apr 18 13:31:41 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 11:31:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder Message-ID: Hi, Wrenchies~ Drake Chamberlain asked about renting a gadget to locate the point where an underground wire is broken. In my local region, the fellow who does "call before you dig" wire location services for the local power company is allowed to freelance in his off hours, using the instruments in his work vehicle. I think his particular setup is able to pinpoint the location of a wire break. Drake, it might be worth calling to see if this is an option for your project. The Wrench List is The Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Apr 18 15:54:57 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 13:54:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium upgrade when Magnasine goes to float too soon Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ I have several local clients with various different versions of Magnum pure sine inverters & all of the inverters seem to transition to the float stage soon after the charge cycle begins. I've observed this even when the inverters & batteries were brand new. I'm aware of the menus about adjusting the bulk time duration but even adjusting that to the longest setting never helped. Since these clients are all off grid with no generator automation, I just tweaked the float voltage to match the bulk voltage then instructed the clients to turn off their generator when the target voltage appears on their display. The batteries were always lead acid floodies. Now that some of these clients need better batteries (& I hope they can afford transitioning to lithium), are there any mfr's for drop in replacement lithium which don't care if the gen-powered charger can't shift downward for the float voltage? The customers' PV chargers all have a float function that does work right. I know that Blue Planet suggests 55.2v DC for all charge stages, but my Magnum systems are all either 12v nominal or 24v nominal, so I'll need to find a different brand that builds the lower voltage batteries. The clients can still shut down the generator when the target voltage is reached, but what if they fail to shut down soon after the setpoint is reached? I wouldn't want to put anybody's battery warranty at risk due to this strange charging quirk. Also, I'd like to know if any other Wrenchies have noticed this peculiarity with the Magnum inverters. Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is The Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 17:18:13 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 16:18:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium upgrade when Magnasine goes to float too soon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I have had similar serious problems when working with old batteries. Their voltage rises rapidly when charging. The older batteries will lose in capacity and more so charging rate. Have the batteries been equalized periodically? If not, they will develop sulfur on the plates. The solution is a desulfation routine. I have improved the battery's performance by a long equalization charge (up to 30 hrs), Do not overheat the batteries, keep the water level up, and be careful you will be generating Hydrogen and Oxygen in the batteries and have a possible explosion. I MEAN EXPLOSION!!! it has happened to me twice, Wear splash goggles. Remember LA batteries have a normal charge period of 20 hours. Steve Higgens will tell you you need a bigger solar array or a smaller load. On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 2:55 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ I have several local clients with various different versions > of Magnum pure sine inverters & all of the inverters seem to transition to > the float stage soon after the charge cycle begins. I've observed this even > when the inverters & batteries were brand new. I'm aware of the menus about > adjusting the bulk time duration but even adjusting that to the longest > setting never helped. > > Since these clients are all off grid with no generator automation, I > just tweaked the float voltage to match the bulk voltage then instructed > the clients to turn off their generator when the target voltage appears on > their display. The batteries were always lead acid floodies. > > Now that some of these clients need better batteries (& I hope they can > afford transitioning to lithium), are there any mfr's for drop in > replacement lithium which don't care if the gen-powered charger can't shift > downward for the float voltage? The customers' PV chargers all have a float > function that does work right. I know that Blue Planet suggests 55.2v DC > for all charge stages, but my Magnum systems are all either 12v nominal or > 24v nominal, so I'll need to find a different brand that builds the lower > voltage batteries. > > The clients can still shut down the generator when the target voltage is > reached, but what if they fail to shut down soon after the setpoint is > reached? I wouldn't want to put anybody's battery warranty at risk due to > this strange charging quirk. Also, I'd like to know if any other Wrenchies > have noticed this peculiarity with the Magnum inverters. > > Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is The Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Apr 18 17:49:56 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 14:49:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium upgrade when Magnasine goes to float too soon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Yes, some of the "Older" designed inverters/Chargers don't like the quick rise in voltage when charging batteries. Most LFPs with a BMS and while being charged in "Open communication" can withstand having the voltage at 14.2 to 14.4 volts 24 hours/7 Days a week. As the internal BMS regulates the charge to the cells. Make sure you contact the battery manufacturer,r as some of them need to be charged differently, or you may need to update the charger to one that can support LFP batteries. I can tell you that with the Surrette "R-Series LFP," you can set the charging voltage to 14.4 (28.8v, 57.6v) and leave it there however long you want. With that, generally, Lithium batteries do not like to be fully 100% charged all the time. What we advise on the "R-Series" is you set the Bulk/Absorb Voltage to 14.4v (28.8 or 57.6), and if you see a sudden transition or surging on a charge, then you put the Float voltage from 13.8 to 14.2 and extend the float time to to the total expected charge time. This is something that you should experiment with for the first few months to get the settings right. If you have an Android device, you can download the Bluetooth dashboard to check the State of charge to ensure the battery is charged. If not, you can extend that float time to aid in getting to that full charge. The good news is LFP or L-Ion don't need to be fully charged. As long as you get to that 80% to 90% ballpark, you will not lose capacity like lead batteries. You won't have full capacity on the battery, and you'll need to oversize a bit more if you operate like this. Surrette LFPs like to see the charger setup as a 2-Stage Charger, but as mentioned above, if you can't adjust this, you will need to set the float voltage and time to compensate for voltage surge or early transition to float. With all that being said, parallel string balancing is an issue we often see in the field on batteries that do not have closed-loop communication. If they are not communicating and the customers are cycling the battery bank full time, I suggest balancing the battery bank strings every 3-6 months. The harder they work them, the more balancing you will need to do. Another way to prevent this need for balancing is instead of Absrobing for 15-30 mins, you extend the absorb timers and disable any end amps settings as having the voltage at the 14.4 (28.8 or 57.6) for a more extended period will help keep the parallel strings more balanced. With Lead batteries... If you see this direct rise in voltage while under charge, there is an issue... It could be anything from a connection issue to a dead or dying cell. In any case, when dealing with batteries, make sure that you're wearing your PPE gear. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 12:55 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ I have several local clients with various different versions > of Magnum pure sine inverters & all of the inverters seem to transition to > the float stage soon after the charge cycle begins. I've observed this even > when the inverters & batteries were brand new. I'm aware of the menus about > adjusting the bulk time duration but even adjusting that to the longest > setting never helped. > > Since these clients are all off grid with no generator automation, I > just tweaked the float voltage to match the bulk voltage then instructed > the clients to turn off their generator when the target voltage appears on > their display. The batteries were always lead acid floodies. > > Now that some of these clients need better batteries (& I hope they can > afford transitioning to lithium), are there any mfr's for drop in > replacement lithium which don't care if the gen-powered charger can't shift > downward for the float voltage? The customers' PV chargers all have a float > function that does work right. I know that Blue Planet suggests 55.2v DC > for all charge stages, but my Magnum systems are all either 12v nominal or > 24v nominal, so I'll need to find a different brand that builds the lower > voltage batteries. > > The clients can still shut down the generator when the target voltage is > reached, but what if they fail to shut down soon after the setpoint is > reached? I wouldn't want to put anybody's battery warranty at risk due to > this strange charging quirk. Also, I'd like to know if any other Wrenchies > have noticed this peculiarity with the Magnum inverters. > > Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is The Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 18:33:14 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 16:33:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium upgrade when Magnasine goes to float too soon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Apr 20 18:04:28 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:04:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48126e3de94b6675dd849d0ce26fa02b@redwoodalliance.org> The thumper sounds like the one to use, but what does it destroy? Does it induce a much higher voltage on the line than regular line voltage? We are dealing with open circuit problems. We can return to our original plan of digging up areas and checking for voltage on the lines with a voltage sensor. Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-04-18 12:04, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: > Not sure about rental sources in your area, but there are two options: > > 1) An underground cable fault locator, aka a "thumper," which only works on direct buried cables. It is a destructive test (at the fault location), and should only be performed when there is a known fault in order to locate it. It requires "walking" the cable run with a sensing device to hear the "thump" generated by the high current/high voltage induced on the line. > > 2) A time domain reflectometer (TDR), which is sort of like radar in that low energy signals are reflected by changes in cable impedance; it is non-destructive, but also not as accurate in terms of the location (providing a cable length to the fault, rather than a "thump" at the actual fault location) and typically cannot see higher resistance (≈>200 MΩ) faults that the thumper can. > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 > National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:27 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Drake, > > I've rented a set-up from my electrical supply house. I'd check to see if Scott Electric/Advantage Rental serves your part of Ohio. > > If memory serves, it is two pieces of equipment that you need. One to trace the line and a second to find the fault. > > -Matt > > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 11:20 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: I understand that there is a tool that locates underground faults in > buried cables. No one in our area has one. There are high tech cable > tracers now, but they don't advertise that they can find underground > breaks in wires. > > One company online had one that advertised that function. The entire kit > came to $5 or $6K. > > Does anyone know where one can be rented. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 > CO Master Electrician's License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC > > 304-704-5943 _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Apr 20 20:04:45 2023 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 14:04:45 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite DIY hardware feedback Message-ID: <61e31586-a775-b947-89b0-763a2f986c4c@sindelarsolar.com> Wrenches, Has anyone used, or known customers who have used, Midnite Solar's new, inexpensive imported 'DIY' line? Any stories, any feedback on performance and reliability so far? Thanks, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. (Retired), Sindelar Solar *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Apr 21 11:45:04 2023 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2023 11:45:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need 1 Sanyo (Panasonic) HIP-195BA19 or equiv Message-ID: Hey there Esteemed Wrenches Anyone have one in New England? Anything from. 190-210 watt would do. Physical dimensions have to match. Thanks!!! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 20:17:22 2023 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2023 18:17:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite DIY hardware feedback In-Reply-To: <61e31586-a775-b947-89b0-763a2f986c4c@sindelarsolar.com> References: <61e31586-a775-b947-89b0-763a2f986c4c@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan - I was able to closely examine a Midnite DIY fresh out of the box that a local colleague installed for a summer neighbor off grid up here. It hasn't had any issues, but has yet to be heavily used, the HO was not able to make it up here last summer, so it's just been idling. My observations: - The max wire #AWG size for the DC +/- main cables was way thinner than what I would use. #2AWG max. - The wiring compartment is TINY, a struggle to even get the lock ring for conduit or strain relief gland in there. - No realistic way to attach conduit. - No 120/240 split phase option. - I'm not a fan of high-freq inverters off the grid. - I'm not a fan of all-in-one inverter/charge controller combos. - Not UL listed. You get Midnite tech support and warranty of a Chinese product for the price, which by far beats AliBaba, Ebay,or Amazon. Not something I would install for myself or for any paying client. But hey, the 1st 3 letters of the product name are DIY, so.....I've seen far, far worse solutions for a remote homesteader on a shoestring budget. At least you can call Midnite and talk to a human if everything goes FUBAR. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 6:28 PM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > Has anyone used, or known customers who have used, Midnite Solar's new, > inexpensive imported 'DIY' line? Any stories, any feedback on performance > and reliability so far? > Thanks, Allan > -- > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > (Retired), Sindelar Solar > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Apr 24 13:24:35 2023 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2023 10:24:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need 1 Sanyo (Panasonic) HIP-195BA19 or equiv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeff, I'm nearly as far away from NE as one can be in the continental US, but I have a HIP-195BA19 orphan, never installed, sitting in my garage. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar 70177 Ponderosa Ln Cove, OR 97824 cell: 541-975-3930 On 4/21/2023 8:45 AM, Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey there Esteemed Wrenches > > Anyone have one in New England? > > Anything from. 190-210 watt would do. Physical dimensions have to match. > > Thanks!!! > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 18:28:45 2023 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (David Palumbo) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2023 18:28:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need 1 Sanyo (Panasonic) HIP-195BA19 or equiv In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeff, According to my old inventory I still should have 4 Sanyo’s up in my barn. 2 BA3 200’s purchased in 2009 and 2 Sanyo 190’s from the same time period. Never installed, been sitting in inventory. I’ll go up and check the exact models and measurements for you tomorrow. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT (802) 371-8678 voice or text Sent from my iPad > On Apr 24, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jeff, > I'm nearly as far away from NE as one can be in the continental US, but I have a HIP-195BA19 orphan, never installed, sitting in my garage. > > Kent Osterberg > > Blue Mountain Solar > 70177 Ponderosa Ln > Cove, OR 97824 > cell: 541-975-3930 > > >> On 4/21/2023 8:45 AM, Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Hey there Esteemed Wrenches >> >> Anyone have one in New England? >> >> Anything from. 190-210 watt would do. Physical dimensions have to match. >> >> Thanks!!! >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Apr 25 12:31:59 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 10:31:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum AGS-S auto-gen start module In-Reply-To: <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> References: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <009601d97793$75d966a0$618c33e0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: If anyone’s got one to part with, please contact me off list. I do NOT need the AGS-N… Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Apr 26 11:25:49 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:25:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder In-Reply-To: <48126e3de94b6675dd849d0ce26fa02b@redwoodalliance.org> References: <48126e3de94b6675dd849d0ce26fa02b@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Dave, The Thumper creates a high current, high voltage discharge. It uses a massive capacitor bank that you connect to the conductors on one side. When it works correctly, it'll cause a massive arc blast at the location of the fault. Assuming the fault is underground, it'll cause a big thumping sound. One technician walks as close to where he heard the thump as he can guess, then the other tech fires a second thump. The walking tech then readjusts his location and so on until it seems that he's right above where the thumping sound is coming from. Once that's determined to the best of your ability, you mark that spot and dig there. The wires will be all melted at that location. All the wires in that conduit will need to be spliced. The thumper can be used for overhead lines too. You want to make sure that the fault isn't in an equipment room... the results might not be pleasant. You also want to make sure that all of the wires are isolated on both sides of the run. I think that the TDR is a cooler tool (time domain reflectometer)... it'll give you an estimated distance (in terms of feet of wire) to the fault location. These two tools are actually best used together... use the TDR, and if it says the fault is 100 feet away, and you have a 200 foot run, then you'd know to position your tech as close as you can to the 100 foot mark, then use the thumper, and you can more quickly determine the exact location to dig. If the TDR says that the fault is at 200', and you only have a 200' run, then you know that it might be more risky to use the thumper, and you can go to the far side of the run and try to find the fault from that side. I don't have the hands-on experience with either of these tools, but I've read a lot about them. The TDR should be able to detect most faults including a complete sheering of the line. It works by sending a pulse and reading the capacitive and inductive reflections. Whenever there is a splice, a short circuit, or an open circuit, it will send back a reflection and each different type of issue has a different type of reflection. The primary fault that it may not be able to see is a high resistance short circuit (like insulation breakdown or like a high Ω IRT), so it may not help find an intermittent ground fault. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 4:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder The thumper sounds like the one to use, but what does it destroy? Does it induce a much higher voltage on the line than regular line voltage? We are dealing with open circuit problems. We can return to our original plan of digging up areas and checking for voltage on the lines with a voltage sensor. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2023-04-18 12:04, Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches wrote: Not sure about rental sources in your area, but there are two options: 1) An underground cable fault locator, aka a "thumper," which only works on direct buried cables. It is a destructive test (at the fault location), and should only be performed when there is a known fault in order to locate it. It requires "walking" the cable run with a sensing device to hear the "thump" generated by the high current/high voltage induced on the line. 2) A time domain reflectometer (TDR), which is sort of like radar in that low energy signals are reflected by changes in cable impedance; it is non-destructive, but also not as accurate in terms of the location (providing a cable length to the fault, rather than a "thump" at the actual fault location) and typically cannot see higher resistance (≈>200 MΩ) faults that the thumper can. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:27 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Drake, I've rented a set-up from my electrical supply house. I'd check to see if Scott Electric/Advantage Rental serves your part of Ohio. If memory serves, it is two pieces of equipment that you need. One to trace the line and a second to find the fault. -Matt On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 11:20 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: I understand that there is a tool that locates underground faults in buried cables. No one in our area has one. There are high tech cable tracers now, but they don't advertise that they can find underground breaks in wires. One company online had one that advertised that function. The entire kit came to $5 or $6K. Does anyone know where one can be rented. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC 304-704-5943 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Apr 26 11:39:19 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:39:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ Gateway outside straw bale house Message-ID: <560d95d222d8c6d16391e18389945e41@redwoodalliance.org> We are planning to combine Enphase circuits in an IQ combiner box, with enclosed Gateway, on the outside of a straw bale house. Will the WiFi signal penetrate a straw bale and the two layers of stucco the wall is made of? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 11:56:47 2023 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:56:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ Gateway outside straw bale house In-Reply-To: <560d95d222d8c6d16391e18389945e41@redwoodalliance.org> References: <560d95d222d8c6d16391e18389945e41@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake; How much chicken wire or other metal mesh is in the strawbale walls and stucco? Can you measure wifi signal strength ahead of time with a smartphone? Is it possible to hardwire Cat5 from the homeowner's router/extender/etc to the WAN port of the IQ Gateway? That is always preferable to wifi. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 9:40 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We are planning to combine Enphase circuits in an IQ combiner box, with > enclosed Gateway, on the outside of a straw bale house. > > Will the WiFi signal penetrate a straw bale and the two layers of stucco > the wall is made of? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 12:48:54 2023 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 06:48:54 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ Gateway outside straw bale house In-Reply-To: References: <560d95d222d8c6d16391e18389945e41@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake: Have a wifi extender on hand to help if needed. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-39784 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 5:58 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Drake; How much chicken wire or other metal mesh is in the strawbale walls > and stucco? Can you measure wifi signal strength ahead of time with a > smartphone? Is it possible to hardwire Cat5 from the homeowner's > router/extender/etc to the WAN port of the IQ Gateway? That is always > preferable to wifi. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 9:40 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We are planning to combine Enphase circuits in an IQ combiner box, with >> enclosed Gateway, on the outside of a straw bale house. >> >> Will the WiFi signal penetrate a straw bale and the two layers of stucco >> the wall is made of? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Wed Apr 26 15:18:37 2023 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:18:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] IQ Gateway outside straw bale house In-Reply-To: <560d95d222d8c6d16391e18389945e41@redwoodalliance.org> References: <560d95d222d8c6d16391e18389945e41@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, I can't speak to your specific situation, but I live in a strawbale house and have no problem getting a Wi-Fi signal outside within reasonable distance of the router. Thanks, Will -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] IQ Gateway outside straw bale house CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. We are planning to combine Enphase circuits in an IQ combiner box, with enclosed Gateway, on the outside of a straw bale house. Will the WiFi signal penetrate a straw bale and the two layers of stucco the wall is made of? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!ZzATpci41inG1lVb8nvmJ4GK5dwApFPHy5b0lkvgi8RVLyvcR7jermiIYOMemO8sJs27U7wWm873NSw-gG9z7wFLIN0ZP3mi$ List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!ZzATpci41inG1lVb8nvmJ4GK5dwApFPHy5b0lkvgi8RVLyvcR7jermiIYOMemO8sJs27U7wWm873NSw-gG9z7wFLIMHK71-g$ There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!ZzATpci41inG1lVb8nvmJ4GK5dwApFPHy5b0lkvgi8RVLyvcR7jermiIYOMemO8sJs27U7wWm873NSw-gG9z7wFLIFD3d7hv$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!ZzATpci41inG1lVb8nvmJ4GK5dwApFPHy5b0lkvgi8RVLyvcR7jermiIYOMemO8sJs27U7wWm873NSw-gG9z7wFLIKC7UC22$ List rules & etiquette: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!ZzATpci41inG1lVb8nvmJ4GK5dwApFPHy5b0lkvgi8RVLyvcR7jermiIYOMemO8sJs27U7wWm873NSw-gG9z7wFLIAsafrFh$ Check out or update participant bios: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.members.re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!ZzATpci41inG1lVb8nvmJ4GK5dwApFPHy5b0lkvgi8RVLyvcR7jermiIYOMemO8sJs27U7wWm873NSw-gG9z7wFLIJKBIzFb$ ________________________________ ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. From william at millersolar.com Wed Apr 26 17:02:28 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 14:02:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Straw bale wi-fi Message-ID: I have install a gateway in an exterior equipment space outside of a straw bale envelope once and wi-fi reception was no problem. I think that every situation needs to be evaluated on it’s own, however. Checking with a smart phone is a good start. William -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Apr 27 10:27:59 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2023 10:27:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ Gateway outside straw bale house In-Reply-To: References: <560d95d222d8c6d16391e18389945e41@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <558aa996e3113047c768fd24cdea9eea@redwoodalliance.org> There is chicken wire under the stucco. The Gateway will be near a window, which is not too far from the router. William's experience is encouraging. If it doesn't work, we will run a CAT 5. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-04-26 11:56, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote: > Drake; How much chicken wire or other metal mesh is in the strawbale walls and stucco? Can you measure wifi signal strength ahead of time with a smartphone? Is it possible to hardwire Cat5 from the homeowner's router/extender/etc to the WAN port of the IQ Gateway? That is always preferable to wifi. > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 9:40 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> We are planning to combine Enphase circuits in an IQ combiner box, with >> enclosed Gateway, on the outside of a straw bale house. >> >> Will the WiFi signal penetrate a straw bale and the two layers of stucco >> the wall is made of? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician's License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Thu Apr 27 16:16:12 2023 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] IQ Gateway outside straw bale house In-Reply-To: <558aa996e3113047c768fd24cdea9eea@redwoodalliance.org> References: <560d95d222d8c6d16391e18389945e41@redwoodalliance.org> <558aa996e3113047c768fd24cdea9eea@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1682626572.58075884@webmail.finestplanet.com> And wifi at 2.4 gHz would work better than 5 gHz. Todd On Thursday, April 27, 2023 7:27am, "Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches" said: There is chicken wire under the stucco. The Gateway will be near a window, which is not too far from the router. William's experience is encouraging. If it doesn't work, we will run a CAT 5. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2023-04-26 11:56, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote: Drake; How much chicken wire or other metal mesh is in the strawbale walls and stucco? Can you measure wifi signal strength ahead of time with a smartphone? Is it possible to hardwire Cat5 from the homeowner's router/extender/etc to the WAN port of the IQ Gateway? That is always preferable to wifi. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate [ d ]( mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com )[ anbob88 at gmail.com ]( mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com ) 970-672-4342 On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 9:40 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <[ re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org )> wrote:We are planning to combine Enphase circuits in an IQ combiner box, with enclosed Gateway, on the outside of a straw bale house. Will the WiFi signal penetrate a straw bale and the two layers of stucco the wall is made of? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: [ http://re-wrenches.org ]( http://re-wrenches.org ) List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Apr 27 17:10:23 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2023 14:10:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of measurement reading error, and that the power factor should be around 1. The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably sending some power back to the grid. Note that the phase B active power measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power is positive. This nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05. Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal with negative readings? [image: image.png] Best, August Luminalt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 15663 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 27 19:12:58 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2023 16:12:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ece2ec60867ce5b5b98712a245180cd@sti.net> My metrology experience is he needs to prove it with a second meter. In a lab setting, at least 2 of 3 calibrated meters need to agree. I would also ask Fluke. They have been really good over the years. Good Luck. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-04-27 2:10 pm, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an > electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and > thinks there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is > some sort of measurement reading error, and that the power factor > should be around 1. > > The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided > a spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating > power factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in > to read it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, > presumably sending some power back to the grid. Note that the phase B > active power measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that > the apparent power is positive. This nets in a power factor that is > crazy low of 0.05. > > Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can > properly measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it > can't deal with negative readings? > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 15663 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 09:34:20 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 07:34:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar In-Reply-To: <0ece2ec60867ce5b5b98712a245180cd@sti.net> References: <0ece2ec60867ce5b5b98712a245180cd@sti.net> Message-ID: <7E638696-E7A4-4599-8018-304CB974F5CA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 11:40:02 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 10:40:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This power factor is impossible, can he measure the apparent power then the real power separately devide the real by apparent to get power factor. I guess he has connections wrong, wrong leg of split phase. If the inverter is off, then possible, do you measure current off the inverter and DC into the inverter? On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 4:11 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an > electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks > there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of > measurement reading error, and that the power factor should be around 1. > > The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a > spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power > factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read > it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably > sending some power back to the grid. Note that the phase B active power > measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power > is positive. This nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05. > > Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly > measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal > with negative readings? > > [image: image.png] > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 15663 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 28 15:18:50 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 15:18:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1cc7e895-f47a-ad22-cb66-fac751d613ea@entech-engineering.com> I think the power factor will be very close to one for split phase.  What's the inverter specs say w/r to this? Chris On 4/27/2023 5:10 PM, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an > electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and > thinks there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is > some sort of measurement reading error, and that the power factor > should be around 1. > > The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided > a spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating > power factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in > to read it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, > presumably sending some power back to the grid.  Note that the phase B > active power measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that > the apparent power is positive. This nets in a power factor that is > crazy low of 0.05. > > Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can > properly measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it > can't deal with negative readings? > > image.png > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 15663 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Apr 28 16:16:58 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 13:16:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar In-Reply-To: <1cc7e895-f47a-ad22-cb66-fac751d613ea@entech-engineering.com> References: <1cc7e895-f47a-ad22-cb66-fac751d613ea@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi All - Yea, I'm suspecting some sort of reading / measurement error. The system has SunPower AC modules with Enphase IQ7 microinverters and I believe the electrician measured the readings down by the utility meter, although I'm not certain. You can see from the bottom of the datasheet that the power factor setting is 1.0 or adjustable between 0.85 inductive or capacitive. [image: image.png] *August Goers* On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 12:20 PM Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think the power factor will be very close to one for split phase. > What's the inverter specs say w/r to this? Chris > On 4/27/2023 5:10 PM, August Goers via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an > electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks > there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of > measurement reading error, and that the power factor should be around 1. > > The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a > spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power > factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read > it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably > sending some power back to the grid. Note that the phase B active power > measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power > is positive. This nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05. > > Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly > measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal > with negative readings? > > [image: image.png] > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 15663 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 81378 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 29 13:03:25 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2023 12:03:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, if the micros are not producing power I would expect an extremely low power factor. The power factor of all inverters is low not in use. Make sure electrician is measuring during production. My measurements are extra low for micro inverters. On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 4:11 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an > electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks > there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of > measurement reading error, and that the power factor should be around 1. > > The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a > spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power > factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read > it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably > sending some power back to the grid. Note that the phase B active power > measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power > is positive. This nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05. > > Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly > measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal > with negative readings? > > [image: image.png] > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 15663 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon May 1 16:34:45 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 1 May 2023 20:34:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp Module search Message-ID: If anyone has a model # NE170-U1 Or similar size / wattage 72 cell modules laying around in good condition please contact me off the list Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon May 1 17:11:56 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 May 2023 14:11:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp Module search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy I got a bunch of sharp 185's Jerry On Mon, May 1, 2023, 1:35 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If anyone has a model # NE170-U1 Or similar size / wattage 72 cell > modules laying around in good condition please contact me off the list > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon May 1 17:17:18 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 1 May 2023 21:17:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp Module search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Okay. I’d be interested in at least 2 qty. What’s a price on them? Model # ? We’d need them shipped to us in Colorado. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On May 1, 2023, at 3:12 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote:  Jeremy I got a bunch of sharp 185's Jerry On Mon, May 1, 2023, 1:35 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: If anyone has a model # NE170-U1 Or similar size / wattage 72 cell modules laying around in good condition please contact me off the list Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon May 1 17:19:18 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 1 May 2023 21:19:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sharp Module search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops. I will not post on the forum about this any longer. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On May 1, 2023, at 3:17 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:  Okay. I’d be interested in at least 2 qty. What’s a price on them? Model # ? We’d need them shipped to us in Colorado. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On May 1, 2023, at 3:12 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote:  Jeremy I got a bunch of sharp 185's Jerry On Mon, May 1, 2023, 1:35 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: If anyone has a model # NE170-U1 Or similar size / wattage 72 cell modules laying around in good condition please contact me off the list Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue May 2 11:29:17 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 2 May 2023 15:29:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] active vs apparent power readings with solar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’m not sure if I fully get what’s was going on or where he was measuring… all of the readings are low (below 1 kW) if he was messing at the meter after the household load has combined with the PV output, then this could make sense. The household loads could be using some apparent power, but the inverters are only putting out real power, so the PV is offsetting all the real power but there’s still some apparent power left, so the overall power factor is ridiculously low. On the other hand, if all the loads are turned off and he’s really only measuring the PV output, then something wrong and I’d think it’s more likely that the measurements are wrong because I don’t see any way that the PV could put out such a bad power factor. Here’s a hypothetical of what I mean in the first paragraph… if load A had a PF of 0.8, and it’s consuming 3 kW, then it’s apparent power is 3.75 kVA. If the PV is producing 2.8 kW at a PF of 1, then it’s producing 2.8 kVA. The net reading would then be 0.2 kW real power and 0.95 kVA. That’s a PF of 0.21. If the PV increases to 2.9 kW, then the real power is 0.1 and apparent power is 0.85 which is a power factor of 0.11 Hopefully this helps… Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Apr 29, 2023, at 11:03 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi all, if the micros are not producing power I would expect an extremely low power factor. The power factor of all inverters is low not in use. Make sure electrician is measuring during production. My measurements are extra low for micro inverters. On Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 4:11 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Wrenches, We have a residential site with grid tied solar where there is an electrician involved who has gotten into taking site readings and thinks there is a power factor problem. My gut on it is that there is some sort of measurement reading error, and that the power factor should be around 1. The electrician is using a Fluke 3540FC power monitor and has provided a spreadsheet comparing active power to apparent power and calculating power factor. See below (you might have to open the image and zoom in to read it). This measurement was taken with a PV system running, presumably sending some power back to the grid. Note that the phase B active power measurement is negative (PV exporting to grid) and that the apparent power is positive. This nets in a power factor that is crazy low of 0.05. Does anyone have experience about whether a meter like this can properly measure these readings - maybe there is a setting error or it can't deal with negative readings? Best, August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 15663 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue May 2 14:04:45 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 2 May 2023 13:04:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering Message-ID: Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question. I did go online to ask Outback twice, no answer. System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each 1.5 kW solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s. Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop. The owner wants the lowest energy bill. The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh and on-peak at 0.21/kWh. My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to 9:00 pm. However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days, AND the Outback will turn off leaving them without power. Is there a way to switch to grid power for this period? I do not want to charge the battery at this time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 2 15:38:19 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 May 2023 12:38:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2a0296909226e824618ede08b7e56646@mail.gmail.com> Darryl: Here are a few suggestions: 1. Don’t move to California. Those rates are unheard of here for many years. 2. Grid-zero. From the manual: In *GridZero *mode, the Radian inverter remains grid-connected, but prioritizes the use of battery or renewable sources to run loads. 3. Mini-grid. From the manual: In Mini Grid mode, the Radian inverter automatically rejects an AC source and runs solely from battery (and renewable) energy. The inverter only connects to the AC source (usually the utility grid) when the batteries run too low. While connected to the utility grid, the inverter’s charger can be set either On or Off. 4. HBX mode. From the manual: In High Battery Transfer (HBX) mode, the system is connected to an AC source such as the utility grid; however, it will use battery power as the fi rst priority. The AC source is locked out until needed. 5. Grid use time: From the manual: This function allows the system to connect to (use) the utility grid and disconnect from (drop) it on a schedule. 6. Grid-tie: Sell back and reduce the energy bill. I will leave it to you to delve into these options and see if the work for your application. Some functions can be mixed, some cannot. I hope this helps. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, May 2, 2023 11:05 AM *To:* newrewrenches *Cc:* Darryl Thayer *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question. I did go online to ask Outback twice, no answer. System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each 1.5 kW solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s. Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop. The owner wants the lowest energy bill. The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh and on-peak at 0.21/kWh. My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to 9:00 pm. However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days, AND the Outback will turn off leaving them without power. Is there a way to switch to grid power for this period? I do not want to charge the battery at this time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 2 17:13:10 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 2 May 2023 15:13:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A7D57BE-22BE-452C-AE07-EA9BEA492125@gmail.com> Which utility has such low rates? SMUD? Jay > On May 2, 2023, at 12:05 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question. I did go online to ask Outback twice, no answer. System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each 1.5 kW solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s. Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop. The owner wants the lowest energy bill. The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh and on-peak at 0.21/kWh. My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to 9:00 pm. However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days, AND the Outback will turn off leaving them without power. Is there a way to switch to grid power for this period? I do not want to charge the battery at this time. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed May 3 10:48:49 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 3 May 2023 09:48:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] problem using Radian on TOU metering In-Reply-To: <6A7D57BE-22BE-452C-AE07-EA9BEA492125@gmail.com> References: <6A7D57BE-22BE-452C-AE07-EA9BEA492125@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am in Minnesota utility is Xcel energy On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 9:12 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Which utility has such low rates? > > SMUD? > > Jay > > > > On May 2, 2023, at 12:05 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello, I apologize for perhaps a dumb question. I did go online to > ask Outback twice, no answer. System Radian 8 kW and Mate3 with 2 each > 1.5 kW solar arrays into 2 ea. MX60s. Battery 20 kWh LiFe open loop. The > owner wants the lowest energy bill. The rates are; off-peak at 0.04/kWh > and on-peak at 0.21/kWh. My choice is battery and solar on-peak 9:00 am to > 9:00 pm. However, the homeowner will deplete the battery on cloudy days, > AND the Outback will turn off leaving them without power. Is there a way > to switch to grid power for this period? I do not want to charge the > battery at this time. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon May 8 12:04:05 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 12:04:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar direct water pumping Message-ID: Hi, I have a friend/client that is looking to keep his pond filled with water pumped from a spring downhill from the pond. He's happy to have the pond filled just when there is enough sun to pump, so no batteries are desired. I have little to no experience with water solar direct pumping, so I'm a little leary of spec'ing anything. The pump will sit 5 feet deep, the distance from spring to pond is about 120' and the head is about 30-40' . He found a pump on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Submersible-Stainless-Built-Circulating-Brushless/dp/B083NHH18K/ Again I know virtually nothing about this topic so I'm not clear whether this pump is appropriate or not. Any advice is appreciated. Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon May 8 13:14:25 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 11:14:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar direct water pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d7880e3-45dc-e6d6-fa38-1f287a32f03a@solarray.com> Just with all other solar equipment, you definitely don't want to go CCC.  I'd recommend you take a look at the Grundfos SQ flex line.  2nd, you need to look at the pump charts to see what the actual flow rate will be at the head you're considering.  The pump you are looking at doesn't even give basic flow rates at pressure. (2nd clue it sucks) Max head is basically where the pump quits pumping, and the 8 GPM rating is at no pressure at all.  I'd "guess" it would pump maybe 4 to 6 GPM at 40 ft of head?  Also, add extra head for the friction losses in the pipe.  That can be looked up (just like wire losses) for the size pipe and flow rate. Finally, you didn't mention how large a pond.  To fill the pond, it needs to overcome both evaporative losses, and leakage into the surrounding soil. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/8/2023 10:04 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, > > I have a friend/client that is looking to keep his pond filled with > water pumped from a spring downhill from the pond. He's happy to have > the pond filled just when there is enough sun to pump, so no batteries > are desired. I have little to no experience with water solar direct > pumping, so I'm a little leary of spec'ing anything. The pump will sit > 5 feet deep, the distance from spring to pond is about 120' and the > head is about 30-40' .  He found a pump on Amazon: > > https://www.amazon.com/Submersible-Stainless-Built-Circulating-Brushless/dp/B083NHH18K/ > > Again I know virtually nothing about this topic so I'm not clear > whether this pump is appropriate or not.  Any advice is appreciated. > > Howie > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon May 8 17:43:14 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 11:43:14 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar direct water pumping In-Reply-To: <1d7880e3-45dc-e6d6-fa38-1f287a32f03a@solarray.com> References: <1d7880e3-45dc-e6d6-fa38-1f287a32f03a@solarray.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon May 8 18:55:12 2023 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 18:55:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo Hybrid Inverter Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, Does anyone have experience with Tigo’s new hybrid inverter? Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue May 9 19:10:23 2023 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 9 May 2023 19:10:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar direct water pumping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <043d01d982cb$71e18f80$55a4ae80$@glbcc.com> I did a Sunrotor pump last year and it works well. They were also very helpful on the phone. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, May 08, 2023 12:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Howie Michaelson Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar direct water pumping Hi, I have a friend/client that is looking to keep his pond filled with water pumped from a spring downhill from the pond. He's happy to have the pond filled just when there is enough sun to pump, so no batteries are desired. I have little to no experience with water solar direct pumping, so I'm a little leary of spec'ing anything. The pump will sit 5 feet deep, the distance from spring to pond is about 120' and the head is about 30-40' . He found a pump on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Submersible-Stainless-Built-Circulating-Brushless/dp/B083NHH18K/ Again I know virtually nothing about this topic so I'm not clear whether this pump is appropriate or not. Any advice is appreciated. Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed May 10 11:06:21 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 08:06:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian In-Reply-To: <043d01d982cb$71e18f80$55a4ae80$@glbcc.com> References: <043d01d982cb$71e18f80$55a4ae80$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com>         The wrench list has some very creative thinkers that may have a go around to be able to master/slave an old Radian's output with a new one.   Outback says this is not do-able.   We're completely off-grid out here and have been charging EVs (one at a time) with an eleven year old Radian (GS8048) for years but the Ford Lightning is on its way.  Outback says I can't add the newer GS8048A to exiting version (no "A"). Ideas?? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed May 10 11:22:07 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 10:22:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian In-Reply-To: <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com> References: <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com> Message-ID: You could find a used not a version of the Radian to Parallel. Or you could make the new a version, the master, and only inverter on your main electrical panel and use the old not a version as your generator battery charger and off grid vehicle charger tied to the same existing battery bank. The downside of this technique is that you’ll need a new additional hub and a new additional mate. The upside is you can marry the two mates together in one system on OpticsRE . Thank you, Maverick > On May 10, 2023, at 10:05 AM, frenergy via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  The wrench list has some very creative thinkers that may have a go around to be able to master/slave an old Radian's output with a new one. Outback says this is not do-able. We're completely off-grid out here and have been charging EVs (one at a time) with an eleven year old Radian (GS8048) for years but the Ford Lightning is on its way. Outback says I can't add the newer GS8048A to exiting version (no "A"). > > Ideas?? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From tump at swnl.net Wed May 10 13:08:41 2023 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 13:08:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian In-Reply-To: References: <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com> Message-ID: <2E261698-DD08-42A0-935E-70C25035A01B@swnl.net> What about replacing the AC board? > On May 10, 2023, at 11:22 AM, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > You could find a used not a version of the Radian to Parallel. > > Or you could make the new a version, the master, and only inverter on your main electrical panel and use the old not a version as your generator battery charger and off grid vehicle charger tied to the same existing battery bank. The downside of this technique is that you’ll need a new additional hub and a new additional mate. The upside is you can marry the two mates together in one system on OpticsRE . > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > >> On May 10, 2023, at 10:05 AM, frenergy via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  The wrench list has some very creative thinkers that may have a go around to be able to master/slave an old Radian's output with a new one. Outback says this is not do-able. We're completely off-grid out here and have been charging EVs (one at a time) with an eleven year old Radian (GS8048) for years but the Ford Lightning is on its way. Outback says I can't add the newer GS8048A to exiting version (no "A"). >> >> Ideas?? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> CA Lic 874049 >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed May 10 14:05:01 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 13:05:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian In-Reply-To: <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com> References: <043d01d982cb$71e18f80$55a4ae80$@glbcc.com> <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com> Message-ID: Sorry if this is nonsense, but your existing Radian is your "AC grid source," It can act as the paralleling. AC coupling source. I did this about 20 to 30 years ago, using FX inverters, not Radians, to power a large motor. Can your Radian Mate 3 run in grid zero? Or if not, one inverter runs all the time as a grid source ( grid forming) the second inverter (grid following) runs in Grid-Zero mode, with "off-set" set at 30 Amps. If the load is less than 30 amps, the grid-following inverter carries the load. (The grid-forming inverter supplies the grid signal, and the following inverter carries the load.) When your load exceeds 30 amps, the extra current comes from the grid-forming inverter. The Radian can pass up to 50 or 60 amps from the forming inverter. You can get 50 to 60 amps to the load when you add the forming and following inverters. Errors: this will double your parasitic load, I have not done this so beware. This is not the answer for V2H; other inverters can work in this combination but On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 10:04 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The wrench list has some very creative thinkers that may have a > go around to be able to master/slave an old Radian's output with a new > one. Outback says this is not do-able. We're completely off-grid out > here and have been charging EVs (one at a time) with an eleven year old > Radian (GS8048) for years but the Ford Lightning is on its way. Outback > says I can't add the newer GS8048A to exiting version (no "A"). > > Ideas?? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed May 10 21:48:19 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 18:48:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian In-Reply-To: References: <043d01d982cb$71e18f80$55a4ae80$@glbcc.com> <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com> Message-ID: I just pulled out an 8048 and replaced it with a 8048A due to the lack of AC boards for 8048s. I didn't know any better and put in a new 8048A board and learned the hard way that they aren't cross compatible. Smoked it. If you think you can find a board for it, it's yours. On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 11:06 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Sorry if this is nonsense, but your existing Radian is your "AC grid > source," It can act as the paralleling. > AC coupling source. I did this about 20 to 30 years ago, using FX > inverters, not Radians, to power a large motor. > Can your Radian Mate 3 run in grid zero? Or if not, one inverter runs all > the time as a grid source ( grid forming) > the second inverter (grid following) runs in Grid-Zero mode, with > "off-set" set at 30 Amps. If the load is less than 30 amps, > the grid-following inverter carries the load. (The grid-forming inverter > supplies the grid signal, and the following inverter > carries the load.) When your load exceeds 30 amps, the extra current > comes from the grid-forming inverter. The Radian can > pass up to 50 or 60 amps from the forming inverter. You can get 50 to 60 > amps > to the load when you add the forming and following inverters. Errors: > this will double your parasitic load, I have not done this > so beware. This is not the answer for V2H; other inverters can work in > this combination but > > > On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 10:04 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> The wrench list has some very creative thinkers that may have a >> go around to be able to master/slave an old Radian's output with a new >> one. Outback says this is not do-able. We're completely off-grid out >> here and have been charging EVs (one at a time) with an eleven year old >> Radian (GS8048) for years but the Ford Lightning is on its way. Outback >> says I can't add the newer GS8048A to exiting version (no "A"). >> >> Ideas?? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> CA Lic 874049 >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu May 11 08:10:18 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 05:10:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian In-Reply-To: References: <043d01d982cb$71e18f80$55a4ae80$@glbcc.com> <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com> Message-ID: Michael,             That's rather dis-heartening if boards are no longer available for a 10 year old product.  Got a long day out of town today but will ruminate on responses. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 5/10/2023 6:48 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I just pulled out an 8048 and replaced it with a 8048A due to the lack > of AC boards for 8048s. I didn't know any better and put in a new > 8048A board and learned the hard way that they aren't cross > compatible. Smoked it. If you think you can find a board for it, it's > yours. > > On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 11:06 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Sorry if this is nonsense,  but your existing Radian is your "AC > grid source," It can act as the paralleling. > AC coupling source.  I did this about 20 to 30 years ago, using FX > inverters, not Radians, to power a large motor. > Can your Radian Mate 3 run in grid zero? Or if not, one inverter > runs all the time as a grid source ( grid forming) > the second inverter (grid following) runs in Grid-Zero mode, with > "off-set" set at 30 Amps.  If the load is less than 30 amps, > the grid-following inverter carries the load.  (The grid-forming > inverter supplies the grid signal, and the following inverter > carries the load.) When your load exceeds 30 amps, the extra > current comes from the grid-forming inverter.  The Radian can > pass up to 50 or 60 amps from the forming inverter.  You can get > 50 to 60 amps > to the load when you add the forming and following inverters.  > Errors: this will double your parasitic load, I have not done this > so beware.  This is not the answer for V2H; other inverters can > work in this combination but > > On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 10:04 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >          The wrench list has some very creative thinkers that > may have a > go around to be able to master/slave an old Radian's output > with a new > one.   Outback says this is not do-able.   We're completely > off-grid out > here and have been charging EVs (one at a time) with an eleven > year old > Radian (GS8048) for years but the Ford Lightning is on its > way.  Outback > says I can't add the newer GS8048A to exiting version (no "A"). > > Ideas?? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 11 11:29:32 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 08:29:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian In-Reply-To: References: <043d01d982cb$71e18f80$55a4ae80$@glbcc.com> <6fca5c71-162a-0942-bc62-dfed44b67dcc@psln.com> Message-ID: Component parts become unavailable, the engineering to make backward compatibles, the liability, and time spent in support can make a company unprofitable. Often the secondary market will step up if there is enough demand. This is nothing new BTW. You have to be in business to do business. Shareholders insist on it! . 02 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-05-11 5:10 am, frenergy via RE-wrenches wrote: > Michael, > > That's rather dis-heartening if boards are no longer available for a 10 > year old product. Got a long day out of town today but will ruminate > on responses. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 5/10/2023 6:48 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I just pulled out an 8048 and replaced it with a 8048A due to the lack > of AC boards for 8048s. I didn't know any better and put in a new 8048A > board and learned the hard way that they aren't cross compatible. > Smoked it. If you think you can find a board for it, it's yours. > > On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 11:06 AM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Sorry if this is nonsense, but your existing Radian is your "AC grid > source," It can act as the paralleling. > AC coupling source. I did this about 20 to 30 years ago, using FX > inverters, not Radians, to power a large motor. > Can your Radian Mate 3 run in grid zero? Or if not, one inverter runs > all the time as a grid source ( grid forming) > the second inverter (grid following) runs in Grid-Zero mode, with > "off-set" set at 30 Amps. If the load is less than 30 amps, > the grid-following inverter carries the load. (The grid-forming > inverter supplies the grid signal, and the following inverter > carries the load.) When your load exceeds 30 amps, the extra current > comes from the grid-forming inverter. The Radian can > pass up to 50 or 60 amps from the forming inverter. You can get 50 to > 60 amps > to the load when you add the forming and following inverters. Errors: > this will double your parasitic load, I have not done this > so beware. This is not the answer for V2H; other inverters can work in > this combination but > > On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 10:04 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: The wrench list has > some very creative thinkers that may have a > go around to be able to master/slave an old Radian's output with a new > one. Outback says this is not do-able. We're completely off-grid > out > here and have been charging EVs (one at a time) with an eleven year old > Radian (GS8048) for years but the Ford Lightning is on its way. > Outback > says I can't add the newer GS8048A to exiting version (no "A"). > > Ideas?? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- [1] Virus-free.www.avast.com [1] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunmountain at netstep.net Thu May 11 16:20:46 2023 From: sunmountain at netstep.net (Larry Brown) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 16:20:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering Message-ID: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually using And how much the solar electric system is producing In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production Thanks Larry Brown Sun Mountain From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu May 11 16:35:35 2023 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 14:35:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering In-Reply-To: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> References: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> Message-ID: The following are brands I have used and trust. eGauge - https://www.egauge.net/ Emporia Vue - https://www.emporiaenergy.com/how-the-vue-energy-monitor-works Verify there is available space within the main service to install the current transformers for the mains. Also verify there is space and a raceway provision (if necessary) for wiring the CT(s) measuring the solar backfeed. Lastly, verify there is an available space for powering the device. Cheers, Sam On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 2:21 PM Larry Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be > installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of > Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System > > The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is > actually using > And how much the solar electric system is producing > > In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client > gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted > from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is > consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production > > Thanks > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu May 11 16:43:02 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 14:43:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering In-Reply-To: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> References: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> Message-ID: If you have a built in monitoring system for the PV (inverter's onboard metering?) that should tell you PV production, and then subtract that from the monthly utility readings to get the household loads.  I don't see the need for a separate inline meter, but I guess it depends how sophisticated the data needs to be.  Is your client just curious, or are they building some monster spread sheet that updates on a 15 minute interval?  Its all about the time interval they want.  Usually monthly intervals are plenty for most home owners, and that doesn't take metering magic, just some arithmetic. Check out the E Guage, it can do what you want.  Personally I don't like being on the hook to support stuff like that years later.  I've already had trouble with Blue Planet dropping support of their phone app, which pissed some customers off, so I'm not into too many bells and whistles that I have to keep supporting down the road.  I've got clients that have systems over 20 years old, so support becomes a bigger issue, the longer you're in business.   Fancy monitoring = double the call backs. Here's all they need to do: Get the monthly electric bill, check the cumulative production on the PV system, and then do some subtraction.  Pretty simple for them, and you only get a call, if the inverter production is low or off. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/11/2023 2:20 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System > > The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually using > And how much the solar electric system is producing > > In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production > > Thanks > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu May 11 16:52:10 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 16:52:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering Message-ID: <99m8v3ji8vs7br6hj42sjb6b.1683838126347@email.lge.com> If they dont need revenue grade measurements, I recommend the Sense monitoring unit.I have had one in my house for years and it is inexpensive and gives me at a glance status on their website amd their mobile app.Clip on a couple of CT's, install a breaker for power and connect it to their WiFi.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Larry Brown via RE-wrenchesDate: Thu, May 11, 2023 4:21 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Larry Brown;Subject:[RE-wrenches] MeteringDoes anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually using And how much the solar electric system is producing In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production Thanks Larry Brown Sun Mountain _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu May 11 17:23:38 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 14:23:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering In-Reply-To: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> References: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> Message-ID: Lary do you want analog or digital, egauge is great for remote monitoring or just your basis utility meter and socket is a inexpensive solution a simple results. Jerry On Thu, May 11, 2023, 1:21 PM Larry Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be > installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of > Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System > > The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is > actually using > And how much the solar electric system is producing > > In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client > gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted > from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is > consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production > > Thanks > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu May 11 17:49:51 2023 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 17:49:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old and new Radian Message-ID: <5C999644-1F1C-480A-89F0-3202B50E57CE@sunwindpowerinc.com> I have at least (3) 8048’s with mates and hubs along with a slew of OB cc’s and OB 3 shelf battery “boxes” that are all functional. Contact off list. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone From kent at coveoregon.com Thu May 11 20:44:58 2023 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 17:44:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering In-Reply-To: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> References: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> Message-ID: <2f0d6de9-4325-31ee-9667-2086bfd76338@coveoregon.com> If the inverter(s) provided energy production data, you would already have all the information you really need. Sounds like it must not. So, if you are looking for something that is relative inexpensive and reasonably accurate, but not revenue grade, you could use an Efergy True Power meter to measure the solar energy produced. It provides daily energy produced or used on the circuit being measured for seven days. Then the data roll up into weekly and monthly totals. This device doesn't communicate via the internet so there is no data storage on a cloud server. I have been using one on my personal system for many years. Transmits about 200 feet from the PV array to the portable monitor that I keep at the house. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 5/11/2023 1:20 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System > > The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually using > And how much the solar electric system is producing > > In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production > > Thanks > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat May 13 13:02:00 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 13 May 2023 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering In-Reply-To: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> References: <7CBDDFCA-5AC6-46FE-BDF4-D9E9274E99DA@netstep.net> Message-ID: I have used Egauge in this situation many times. They even have revenue-grade Current Transformers.(CTs) Their tech support is good, I find even I can set them up easily. They use normal English in their documentation. On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 3:21 PM Larry Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be > installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of > Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System > > The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is > actually using > And how much the solar electric system is producing > > In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client > gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted > from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is > consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production > > Thanks > > Larry Brown > Sun Mountain > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 15 15:17:10 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 15 May 2023 13:17:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery balancers Message-ID: Hi All I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2 12v lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any series communication. Kilovault if that matters. Not my design. It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one. Thanks in advance Jay From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon May 15 18:12:41 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Mon, 15 May 2023 15:12:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery balancers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, I started recommending the Victron battery balancer for all series and series/parallel Li battery banks. It has eliminated trouble in some problematic systems. If you reach a cell over-voltage in the Kilovault BMS, it will block current flow, preventing the other series batteries from charging. This also causes havoc with connected equipment as the battery appears to have disconnected. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On May 15, 2023, at 12:17 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi All I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2 12v lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any series communication. Kilovault if that matters. Not my design. It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one. Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue May 16 09:24:05 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 09:24:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery balancers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would you recommend that for FLAs?  Thank you, Chris On 5/15/2023 6:12 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay, > > I started recommending the Victron battery balancer for all series and > series/parallel Li battery banks. It has eliminated trouble in some > problematic systems. If you reach a cell over-voltage in the Kilovault > BMS, it will block current flow, preventing the other series batteries > from charging. This also causes havoc with connected equipment as the > battery appears to have disconnected. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Power Systems > > > On May 15, 2023, at 12:17 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All > > I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2 >  12v lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any > series communication. > Kilovault if that matters. > Not my design. > > It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 16 09:19:08 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 07:19:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists Message-ID: Hi All I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I think victron might be the only company I’ve actually seen a retail price list for in years. Maybe it’s just marking up labor costs a lot? I’m not doing all that much work these days but enough that I’m trying to figure this out. Thanks Jay From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue May 16 11:44:54 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 08:44:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery balancers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87C18F9A-E6C9-4F05-AE2C-2B82C559E841@starlightsolar.com> Hello Chris, LA batteries do not have a BMS that can block current flow to a series group of cells. Balancers are not likely needed but may benefit an aging battery bank. A long enough charge time (CV) on a healthy bank will fully charge all cells even though some cells will experience high voltage. Cross connecting cables between parallel strings will help the even distribution of voltage as it provides alternative paths for current. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On May 16, 2023, at 6:24 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: Would you recommend that for FLAs? Thank you, Chris On 5/15/2023 6:12 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay, > > I started recommending the Victron battery balancer for all series and series/parallel Li battery banks. It has eliminated trouble in some problematic systems. If you reach a cell over-voltage in the Kilovault BMS, it will block current flow, preventing the other series batteries from charging. This also causes havoc with connected equipment as the battery appears to have disconnected. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Power Systems > > > On May 15, 2023, at 12:17 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi All > > I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2 12v lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any series communication. > Kilovault if that matters. > Not my design. > > It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue May 16 13:47:11 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 12:47:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery balancers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, if this is the LA AGM thin plate, I tried to look into this a few years ago. Being AGM, they have a recombination feature; when overcharged, they recombine the H2 O2, thus self-balancing, just like the top balance in LiFe. The caution is not to charge too fast in absorb mode. I decided not to use the balancer. The system is 3 yrs old and going great. On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 2:38 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All > > I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2 12v > lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any series > communication. > Kilovault if that matters. > Not my design. > > It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue May 16 16:21:00 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 16 May 2023 14:21:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian woes In-Reply-To: <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> References: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <005301d98833$eeeb54d0$ccc1fe70$@OasisMontana.com> Hey folks: On a stacked Outback Radian system, has anyone encountered a HUB 53 fault as noted on the MATE3s? Thanks in advance! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed May 17 18:06:50 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 17:06:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I won't disclose my markup, but I can tell you that I stopped showing itemized prices on my bids years ago for exactly this reason. The customer only sees the final bid amount. If they want to shop around and buy it on their own, they will have to self install or find another installer. Just my $.02 Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 10:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All > > I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for > equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. > > If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I > think victron might be the only company I’ve actually seen a retail price > list for in years. > Maybe it’s just marking up labor costs a lot? > > I’m not doing all that much work these days but enough that I’m trying to > figure this out. > > Thanks > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed May 17 18:55:02 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 15:55:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Bottom line package price, all inclusive one number, I list all the major components inverter, modules ect. and all of what is included permits engineering thats it system cost, tax incentive, rebate (if any) no a la carte here sorry. But thats just me! On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All > > I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for > equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. > > If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I > think victron might be the only company I’ve actually seen a retail price > list for in years. > Maybe it’s just marking up labor costs a lot? > > I’m not doing all that much work these days but enough that I’m trying to > figure this out. > > Thanks > Jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu May 18 00:25:08 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 21:25:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just getting old? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches,             I've got a call from a customer that said their (my install) 17 year old GT system went dead. Basic stats: 23, Mitsubishi PVMF120EC3, label says V mpp= 17.6V and Voc = 22 V; top-of-pole; SMA SB3800U. Its one string of 23 PVs.  Full sun, 75 degrees ambient during testing. When I checked DC voltage at the inverter landings I got ~23-29 volts (fluctuating) same at the input side of the DC switch.  These panels have the old gasketted 4-screw covered J-boxes and screw terminals inside, I removed the covers from three panels and got 9.5 volts at the each of the panels' screw terminals,  all the wiring outside the boxes checks out.             The system had been functioning normally 3 weeks prior. I could check voltage at more panels I guess.  Ideas? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu May 18 01:25:41 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 00:25:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just getting old? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Was the inverter connected at the time of testing? If so I suspect the inverter is loading the solar array below Vmp On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 11:23 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I've got a call from a customer that said their (my > install) 17 year old GT system went dead. Basic stats: 23, Mitsubishi > PVMF120EC3, label says V mpp= 17.6V and Voc = 22 V; top-of-pole; SMA > SB3800U. Its one string of 23 PVs. Full sun, 75 degrees ambient during > testing. When I checked DC voltage at the inverter landings I got ~23-29 > volts (fluctuating) same at the input side of the DC switch. These > panels have the old gasketted 4-screw covered J-boxes and screw > terminals inside, I removed the covers from three panels and got 9.5 > volts at the each of the panels' screw terminals, all the wiring > outside the boxes checks out. > > The system had been functioning normally 3 weeks prior. I > could check voltage at more panels I guess. Ideas? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu May 18 07:14:35 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 07:14:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is how I explain it to customers. Straight out of college, I was a financial analyst for an aerospace company working on government contracts. We did "cost-plus" contracts, which is what the client is essentially looking for. The government ended up paying too much for things this way. A fixed-price competitive contract is all the transparency a client needs. Another way I put it is that we charge what the market allows, and if that is not enough for us to provide an excellent customer experience, we simply pass on the job. No line item prices. The only things we might line item are permit costs and engineering fees for non-standard projects. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > Bottom line package price, all inclusive one number, I list all the major > components inverter, modules ect. and all of what is included permits > engineering thats it system cost, tax incentive, rebate (if any) no a la > carte here sorry. > But thats just me! > > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All >> >> I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for >> equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. >> >> If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I >> think victron might be the only company I’ve actually seen a retail price >> list for in years. >> Maybe it’s just marking up labor costs a lot? >> >> I’m not doing all that much work these days but enough that I’m trying to >> figure this out. >> >> Thanks >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu May 18 11:42:21 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 08:42:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My question is: how/why is it that NAZ and the likes sell equipment for less than what I pay wholesale? On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 4:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Here is how I explain it to customers. Straight out of college, I was a > financial analyst for an aerospace company working on government contracts. > We did "cost-plus" contracts, which is what the client is essentially > looking for. The government ended up paying too much for things this way. A > fixed-price competitive contract is all the transparency a client needs. > > Another way I put it is that we charge what the market allows, and if that > is not enough for us to provide an excellent customer experience, we simply > pass on the job. > > No line item prices. The only things we might line item are permit costs > and engineering fees for non-standard projects. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches >> Bottom line package price, all inclusive one number, I list all the major >> components inverter, modules ect. and all of what is included permits >> engineering thats it system cost, tax incentive, rebate (if any) no a la >> carte here sorry. >> But thats just me! >> >> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All >>> >>> I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for >>> equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. >>> >>> If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I >>> think victron might be the only company I’ve actually seen a retail price >>> list for in years. >>> Maybe it’s just marking up labor costs a lot? >>> >>> I’m not doing all that much work these days but enough that I’m trying >>> to figure this out. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu May 18 11:46:48 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 11:46:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If a customer wants to use some of their own parts, I'll need to add some amount of hours for managing them and their purchase list, and make it clear in the contract that issues arising from incomplete or incorrect parts is on them. Or you can do what I saw at my mechanic shop the other day: Labor = $120/hr. If you bring your own parts, labor = $150/hr. Cheers, Dave On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > My question is: how/why is it that NAZ and the likes sell equipment for > less than what I pay wholesale? > > On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 4:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Here is how I explain it to customers. Straight out of college, I was a >> financial analyst for an aerospace company working on government contracts. >> We did "cost-plus" contracts, which is what the client is essentially >> looking for. The government ended up paying too much for things this way. A >> fixed-price competitive contract is all the transparency a client needs. >> >> Another way I put it is that we charge what the market allows, and if >> that is not enough for us to provide an excellent customer experience, we >> simply pass on the job. >> >> No line item prices. The only things we might line item are permit costs >> and engineering fees for non-standard projects. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches >>> Bottom line package price, all inclusive one number, I list all the >>> major components inverter, modules ect. and all of what is included permits >>> engineering thats it system cost, tax incentive, rebate (if any) no a la >>> carte here sorry. >>> But thats just me! >>> >>> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All >>>> >>>> I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for >>>> equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. >>>> >>>> If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I >>>> think victron might be the only company I’ve actually seen a retail price >>>> list for in years. >>>> Maybe it’s just marking up labor costs a lot? >>>> >>>> I’m not doing all that much work these days but enough that I’m trying >>>> to figure this out. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 18 11:48:08 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 08:48:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: NAZ is an extremely well run company ! Love those guys! On 2023-05-18 8:42 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > My question is: how/why is it that NAZ and the likes sell equipment for > less than what I pay wholesale? > > On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 4:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Here is how I explain it to customers. Straight out of college, I was a > financial analyst for an aerospace company working on government > contracts. We did "cost-plus" contracts, which is what the client is > essentially looking for. The government ended up paying too much for > things this way. A fixed-price competitive contract is all the > transparency a client needs. > > Another way I put it is that we charge what the market allows, and if > that is not enough for us to provide an excellent customer experience, > we simply pass on the job. > > No line item prices. The only things we might line item are permit > costs and engineering fees for non-standard projects. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Wrenches > Bottom line package price, all inclusive one number, I list all the > major components inverter, modules ect. and all of what is included > permits engineering thats it system cost, tax incentive, rebate (if > any) no a la carte here sorry. > But thats just me! > > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All > > I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for > equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below > wholesale. > > If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I > think victron might be the only company I've actually seen a retail > price list for in years. > Maybe it's just marking up labor costs a lot? > > I'm not doing all that much work these days but enough that I'm trying > to figure this out. > > Thanks > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri May 19 06:57:45 2023 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 06:57:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We are in Biz to make $$$$. I do not concern myself w/ what others or internet pricing, can you say AltE? You are a professional we have insurance, equipment , inventory & CE requirements. The client is covering those unseen costs too, as well as the equipment you are selling. We/you have to include the cost of babysitting, as you will always have those phone calls/ DOB equipment etc. I explain to my off grid clients that my pricing includes the inevitable phone time for a year. Remember some of the best jobs are the ones you DONT get! > On May 18, 2023, at 11:48 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > NAZ is an extremely well run company ! Love those guys! > > On 2023-05-18 8:42 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> My question is: how/why is it that NAZ and the likes sell equipment for less than what I pay wholesale? >> >> On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 4:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Here is how I explain it to customers. Straight out of college, I was a financial analyst for an aerospace company working on government contracts. We did "cost-plus" contracts, which is what the client is essentially looking for. The government ended up paying too much for things this way. A fixed-price competitive contract is all the transparency a client needs. >> >> Another way I put it is that we charge what the market allows, and if that is not enough for us to provide an excellent customer experience, we simply pass on the job. >> >> No line item prices. The only things we might line item are permit costs and engineering fees for non-standard projects. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Wrenches >> Bottom line package price, all inclusive one number, I list all the major components inverter, modules ect. and all of what is included permits engineering thats it system cost, tax incentive, rebate (if any) no a la carte here sorry. >> But thats just me! >> >> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hi All >> >> I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. >> >> If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I think victron might be the only company I've actually seen a retail price list for in years. >> Maybe it's just marking up labor costs a lot? >> >> I'm not doing all that much work these days but enough that I'm trying to figure this out. >> >> Thanks >> Jay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> Morningstar Electric >> PO Box 1494 >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> 530-921-0560 >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri May 19 09:13:48 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 07:13:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002d01d98a53$c035a4c0$40a0ee40$@solarwork.com> Every time in the past that I have “priced out” a project, the client has shopped it out including purchasing some equipment & then expecting me to still do the install. It is not worth the headache. Relax and let these people go. I did one 2 years ago (can you say Amnesia?) and it turned into they bought equipment from 4 venders, had plans done by an electrician that was not experienced enough to do plans, had someone else pull the permit. I got to talk with our inspector & his description of the end installation was “what a S$%$T” show”. Sell an installed package. Folks we are professionals who are in business to earn a living & a retirement, we deserve respect, so many people think that solar is this “hobby type of thing” & not a real business because they managed to install a PV module on their van with a battery & an internet inverter & they did not blow anything up (of course all with no fusing). As stated below we have an investment bigtime in shop, support, insurances, vehicles, tools, etc. … Treat yourself with respect and work for people who appreciate & respect you. You deserve it! All of you have a really great weekend not working! You have earned it. Dana Orzel - E - dana at solarwork.com - C - 208.721.7003 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Tump via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, May 19, 2023 4:58 AM To: offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches Cc: Tump Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Retail price lists We are in Biz to make $$$$. I do not concern myself w/ what others or internet pricing, can you say AltE? You are a professional we have insurance, equipment , inventory & CE requirements. The client is covering those unseen costs too, as well as the equipment you are selling. We/you have to include the cost of babysitting, as you will always have those phone calls/ DOB equipment etc. I explain to my off grid clients that my pricing includes the inevitable phone time for a year. Remember some of the best jobs are the ones you DONT get! On May 18, 2023, at 11:48 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: NAZ is an extremely well run company ! Love those guys! On 2023-05-18 8:42 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: My question is: how/why is it that NAZ and the likes sell equipment for less than what I pay wholesale? On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 4:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: Here is how I explain it to customers. Straight out of college, I was a financial analyst for an aerospace company working on government contracts. We did "cost-plus" contracts, which is what the client is essentially looking for. The government ended up paying too much for things this way. A fixed-price competitive contract is all the transparency a client needs. Another way I put it is that we charge what the market allows, and if that is not enough for us to provide an excellent customer experience, we simply pass on the job. No line item prices. The only things we might line item are permit costs and engineering fees for non-standard projects. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 6:56 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches Bottom line package price, all inclusive one number, I list all the major components inverter, modules ect. and all of what is included permits engineering thats it system cost, tax incentive, rebate (if any) no a la carte here sorry. But thats just me! On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 8:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All I have a question about how wrenches are dealing with charging for equipment as most prices of most equipment on line at or below wholesale. If people are marking it up, how much? what metric are people using? I think victron might be the only company I've actually seen a retail price list for in years. Maybe it's just marking up labor costs a lot? I'm not doing all that much work these days but enough that I'm trying to figure this out. Thanks Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon May 22 15:24:36 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 12:24:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just getting old? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a7299d0-ef16-693d-dec7-64868409a915@psln.com> I went back to this array, removed all J-box covers and tested for Voc.  The majority of the PVs were ~ 9.5Voc, about 5 were ~19 Voc, 3 were 0 (that's zero) Voc .  The diodes are in an encapsulant.  The label says Voc = 22V. Another array of Mitsubishi panels takes a dive.             Anybody have contact info for them or recent experience with their warranty? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 5/17/2023 10:25 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Was the inverter connected at the time of testing?  If so I suspect > the inverter is loading the solar array below Vmp > > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 11:23 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Wrenches, > >              I've got a call from a customer that said their (my > install) 17 year old GT system went dead. Basic stats: 23, Mitsubishi > PVMF120EC3, label says V mpp= 17.6V and Voc = 22 V; top-of-pole; SMA > SB3800U. Its one string of 23 PVs.  Full sun, 75 degrees ambient > during > testing. When I checked DC voltage at the inverter landings I got > ~23-29 > volts (fluctuating) same at the input side of the DC switch. These > panels have the old gasketted 4-screw covered J-boxes and screw > terminals inside, I removed the covers from three panels and got 9.5 > volts at the each of the panels' screw terminals,  all the wiring > outside the boxes checks out. > >              The system had been functioning normally 3 weeks > prior. I > could check voltage at more panels I guess.  Ideas? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 22 15:35:38 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 12:35:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just getting old? In-Reply-To: <0a7299d0-ef16-693d-dec7-64868409a915@psln.com> References: <0a7299d0-ef16-693d-dec7-64868409a915@psln.com> Message-ID: <5b12a3cf9442403d787cb78ecc4558b5@sti.net> Bill, I remember the warranty was not great and the ones I had experience were not top Tier. I am thinking dumb looks are still free and a Seventeen year old installation is going to be more free time for you. I hope I am wrong, good luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-05-22 12:24 pm, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches wrote: > I went back to this array, removed all J-box covers and tested for Voc. > The majority of the PVs were ~ 9.5Voc, about 5 were ~19 Voc, 3 were 0 > (that's zero) Voc . The diodes are in an encapsulant. The label says > Voc = 22V. Another array of Mitsubishi panels takes a dive. > > Anybody have contact info for them or recent experience with their > warranty? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 5/17/2023 10:25 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Was the inverter connected at the time of testing? If so I suspect the > inverter is loading the solar array below Vmp > > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 11:23 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches, > > I've got a call from a customer that said their (my > install) 17 year old GT system went dead. Basic stats: 23, Mitsubishi > PVMF120EC3, label says V mpp= 17.6V and Voc = 22 V; top-of-pole; SMA > SB3800U. Its one string of 23 PVs. Full sun, 75 degrees ambient during > testing. When I checked DC voltage at the inverter landings I got > ~23-29 > volts (fluctuating) same at the input side of the DC switch. These > panels have the old gasketted 4-screw covered J-boxes and screw > terminals inside, I removed the covers from three panels and got 9.5 > volts at the each of the panels' screw terminals, all the wiring > outside the boxes checks out. > > The system had been functioning normally 3 weeks prior. I > could check voltage at more panels I guess. Ideas? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com [1] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [2] Virus-free.www.avast.com [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.avast.com [2] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon May 22 15:39:52 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 13:39:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just getting old? In-Reply-To: <0a7299d0-ef16-693d-dec7-64868409a915@psln.com> References: <0a7299d0-ef16-693d-dec7-64868409a915@psln.com> Message-ID: <004101d98ce5$2e4edce0$8aec96a0$@OasisMontana.com> We haven’t sold these modules, but here’s some information: https://www.mitsubishielectricsolar.com/warranty-information/ Good luck! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, May 22, 2023 1:25 PM To: Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches Cc: Bill Battagin Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just getting old? I went back to this array, removed all J-box covers and tested for Voc. The majority of the PVs were ~ 9.5Voc, about 5 were ~19 Voc, 3 were 0 (that's zero) Voc . The diodes are in an encapsulant. The label says Voc = 22V. Another array of Mitsubishi panels takes a dive. Anybody have contact info for them or recent experience with their warranty? Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 5/17/2023 10:25 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: Was the inverter connected at the time of testing? If so I suspect the inverter is loading the solar array below Vmp On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 11:23 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: Wrenches, I've got a call from a customer that said their (my install) 17 year old GT system went dead. Basic stats: 23, Mitsubishi PVMF120EC3, label says V mpp= 17.6V and Voc = 22 V; top-of-pole; SMA SB3800U. Its one string of 23 PVs. Full sun, 75 degrees ambient during testing. When I checked DC voltage at the inverter landings I got ~23-29 volts (fluctuating) same at the input side of the DC switch. These panels have the old gasketted 4-screw covered J-boxes and screw terminals inside, I removed the covers from three panels and got 9.5 volts at the each of the panels' screw terminals, all the wiring outside the boxes checks out. The system had been functioning normally 3 weeks prior. I could check voltage at more panels I guess. Ideas? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon May 22 15:40:38 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 22 May 2023 12:40:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just getting old? In-Reply-To: <0a7299d0-ef16-693d-dec7-64868409a915@psln.com> References: <0a7299d0-ef16-693d-dec7-64868409a915@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill You do need to verify that you also have No current, l see this quite a few times where modules have failed just to find a shorted inverter or damaged conduit where one wire overheats cause unknown and the cascade is they all melt together and it's such a great short that voltage is near zero. Just a thought with fun times Jerry On Mon, May 22, 2023, 12:25 PM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I went back to this array, removed all J-box covers and tested for Voc. > The majority of the PVs were ~ 9.5Voc, about 5 were ~19 Voc, 3 were 0 > (that's zero) Voc . The diodes are in an encapsulant. The label says Voc > = 22V. Another array of Mitsubishi panels takes a dive. > > Anybody have contact info for them or recent experience with > their warranty? > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > On 5/17/2023 10:25 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Was the inverter connected at the time of testing? If so I suspect the > inverter is loading the solar array below Vmp > > On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 11:23 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I've got a call from a customer that said their (my >> install) 17 year old GT system went dead. Basic stats: 23, Mitsubishi >> PVMF120EC3, label says V mpp= 17.6V and Voc = 22 V; top-of-pole; SMA >> SB3800U. Its one string of 23 PVs. Full sun, 75 degrees ambient during >> testing. When I checked DC voltage at the inverter landings I got ~23-29 >> volts (fluctuating) same at the input side of the DC switch. These >> panels have the old gasketted 4-screw covered J-boxes and screw >> terminals inside, I removed the covers from three panels and got 9.5 >> volts at the each of the panels' screw terminals, all the wiring >> outside the boxes checks out. >> >> The system had been functioning normally 3 weeks prior. I >> could check voltage at more panels I guess. Ideas? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> CA Lic 874049 >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_-4106779750629804352_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue May 23 12:59:48 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 09:59:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP Message-ID: Am I missing something? Schneider has come up with a solution to the discontinued SCP by using a tablet connected to the Insight's ethernet port. In doing so, by utilizing that port it seems there is no longer a way to make a wired connection to the internet. -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue May 23 13:37:59 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 12:37:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Monitoring-with-Tablet-Solution-and-SCP-Webinar.jpg Type: image/png Size: 69481 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 23 14:44:57 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 11:44:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c318b7f7d6d89cbe7484e89a1734808@sti.net> I am not having any problem. Doing what Mav does or the wifi. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-05-23 10:37 am, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > I connected the Insight to the internet via the wireless connection and > the tablet get the wired connection. I guess you plug them both into a > network switch or router. > > Also, on the 25th, they have a webinar to discuss this topic. > > Monitoring with Tablet Solution and System Control Panel (SCP) [1] > solar.se.com [1] > > Thank you, > > Maverick > >> On May 23, 2023, at 12:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > >> Am I missing something? Schneider has come up with a solution to the >> discontinued SCP by using a tablet connected to the Insight's ethernet >> port. In doing so, by utilizing that port it seems there is no longer >> a way to make a wired connection to the internet. >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/monitoring-with-tablet-solution-and-system-control-panel-scp/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue May 23 20:01:41 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 23 May 2023 17:01:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP In-Reply-To: <1c318b7f7d6d89cbe7484e89a1734808@sti.net> References: <1c318b7f7d6d89cbe7484e89a1734808@sti.net> Message-ID: So a switch will work? On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 11:45 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I am not having any problem. Doing what Mav does or the wifi. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-05-23 10:37 am, Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I connected the Insight to the internet via the wireless connection and > the tablet get the wired connection. I guess you plug them both into a > network switch or router. > > Also, on the 25th, they have a webinar to discuss this topic. > > > [image: Monitoring-with-Tablet-Solution-and-SCP-Webinar.jpg] > > Monitoring with Tablet Solution and System Control Panel (SCP) > > solar.se.com > > > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > On May 23, 2023, at 12:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Am I missing something? Schneider has come up with a solution to the > discontinued SCP by using a tablet connected to the Insight's ethernet > port. In doing so, by utilizing that port it seems there is no longer a way > to make a wired connection to the internet. > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri May 26 13:27:19 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 17:27:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure if it’s quite public info yet, but the SCP is going to be available for purchase again. “In June 2023, Xantrex will begin selling the System Control Panel (SCP). The Xantrex SCP is functionally identical to the discontinued Schneider Electric SCP (part #865-1050-01). The only difference is the color which is black, and will have the “Xantrex” logo. The programming, display, firmware, and installation are identical to the discontinued Schneider Electric SCP. Support for Schneider Electric SW and XW Pro systems using the Xantrex SCP will still be supported by Schneider Electric Technical Support as you do today. In the event of a defective Xantrex SCP, customers will have to reach out to Xantrex directly for warranty support. The warranty terms and conditions will be provided by Xantrex.” Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: May-23-23 10:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP Am I missing something? Schneider has come up with a solution to the discontinued SCP by using a tablet connected to the Insight's ethernet port. In doing so, by utilizing that port it seems there is no longer a way to make a wired connection to the internet. -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4xkNeAOHZC3SDnZTmnhgML4JHyGwi0PdmG_TrSHASBRfwJtZqGi7vknpXAngaaiawfnr5xCF1Y] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri May 26 13:38:42 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 13:38:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the heads up, Kevin! However I seem to have missed the memo that xantrex and Schneider are separate entities? How far out of the loop am I? Howie Sun Catcher On Fri, May 26, 2023, 1:28 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Not sure if it’s quite public info yet, but the SCP is going to be > available for purchase again. > > > > “In June 2023, Xantrex will begin selling the System Control Panel (SCP). > The Xantrex SCP is functionally identical to the discontinued Schneider > Electric SCP (part #865-1050-01). The only difference is the color which > is black, and will have the “Xantrex” logo. The programming, display, > firmware, and installation are identical to the discontinued Schneider > Electric SCP. > > > > Support for Schneider Electric SW and XW Pro systems using the Xantrex SCP > will still be supported by Schneider Electric Technical Support as you do > today. In the event of a defective Xantrex SCP, customers will have to > reach out to Xantrex directly for warranty support. The warranty terms and > conditions will be provided by Xantrex.” > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* May-23-23 10:00 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Michael Morningstar > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP > > > > Am I missing something? Schneider has come up with a solution to the > discontinued SCP by using a tablet connected to the Insight's ethernet > port. In doing so, by utilizing that port it seems there is no longer a way > to make a wired connection to the internet. > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 26 14:46:35 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 11:46:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <274ed8fd4852aa5680c049ba60a35d3b@sti.net> September 2008 Schneider bought Xantrex Inverters & Solar. The XW and later CSW became a Schneider brand and the Marine and Mobile stayed Xantrex. Schneider later built the first 600vdc MPPT. Later Combox built an excellent Cloud based monitor Insight. It is good news that the SCP will be available again and for now the Marine Freedom/xantrex (black color) SCP can be used with a firmware update. Probably OK to post this Kevin as it was in the Webinar yesterday. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-05-26 10:38 am, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Thanks for the heads up, Kevin! However I seem to have missed the memo > that xantrex and Schneider are separate entities? How far out of the > loop am I? > Howie > Sun Catcher > > On Fri, May 26, 2023, 1:28 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Not sure if it's quite public info yet, but the SCP is going to be >> available for purchase again. >> >> "In June 2023, Xantrex will begin selling the System Control Panel >> (SCP). The Xantrex SCP is functionally identical to the discontinued >> Schneider Electric SCP (part #865-1050-01). The only difference is >> the color which is black, and will have the "Xantrex" logo. The >> programming, display, firmware, and installation are identical to the >> discontinued Schneider Electric SCP. >> >> Support for Schneider Electric SW and XW Pro systems using the Xantrex >> SCP will still be supported by Schneider Electric Technical Support as >> you do today. In the event of a defective Xantrex SCP, customers will >> have to reach out to Xantrex directly for warranty support. The >> warranty terms and conditions will be provided by Xantrex." >> >> Kevin >> >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches >> Sent: May-23-23 10:00 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Michael Morningstar >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Conext SCP >> >> Am I missing something? Schneider has come up with a solution to the >> discontinued SCP by using a tablet connected to the Insight's ethernet >> port. In doing so, by utilizing that port it seems there is no longer >> a way to make a wired connection to the internet. >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 26 18:53:11 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 26 May 2023 15:53:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar installer Technician Message-ID: Need a solar person near Durango Colorado who can onsite troubleshoot a Discover AES battery / XWpro at an Offgrid Cabin. Good Owner. Please contact me off-list Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed May 31 13:37:43 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 13:37:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata Message-ID: Hi all, I have a client with a Magnum MS 4024- PAE inverter. There are some serious issues with power output quality and according to the client, another installer had started the RMA process while the inverter was still under warranty, however Sensata has not been responsive and has lost track of the case. They are asking for a new case to be initiated, but the inverter is now out of warranty. Has anyone out there had similar lack luster support issues with Sensata? Best, Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed May 31 13:50:58 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 11:50:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> What were the issues?  I've not seen a Magnum have power quality troubles, but they are not the "grid" either.  My experience is that they are similar or a bit better than Outback, but certainly have measurable THD in the 4 to 5% range.  Its almost always finicky loads, and the inverter has always been within its tolerances, so I doubt you have an actual warranty issue. However, I have seen inverter output get strange after lightning damage, which is not covered under warranty either. You need a decent meter that can measure THD, and can capture the peak voltage of the waveform.  A good oscilloscope is even better, so you can see the waveform. Stuff like clocks not keeping time, or certain digital controls on certain appliances not functioning, is not a warranty claim. Lights dimming, or LEDs flickering is not a warranty claim.  These are normal living off grid, and the only thing better than a Magnum for power quality is Exeltech in my experience. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/31/2023 11:37 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all, > > I have a client with a Magnum MS 4024- PAE inverter. There are some > serious issues with power output quality and according to the client, > another installer had started the RMA process while the inverter was > still under warranty, however Sensata has not been responsive and has > lost track of the case. They are asking for a new case to be > initiated, but the inverter is now out of warranty. Has anyone out > there had similar lack luster support issues with Sensata? > > Best, > > Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Wed May 31 15:27:37 2023 From: rich at solartechvt.com (rich at solartechvt.com) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 15:27:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata In-Reply-To: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> References: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> Message-ID: <009701d993f5$f61d82a0$e25887e0$@solartechvt.com> Magnum has been difficult that last 3 years – we currently multiple inverters that are down needing boards for repair that can’t be obtained. It appears stock of new inverters is just starting to trickle back into suppliers so we hope to see parts soon. It seemed Magnum quality took also took a hit when purchased by Sensata and I think operations were moved to a new location? – we found MMP’s shipped with missing parts etc. The best tech support engineer they had went to Outback, but then was lost tragically to complications from Covid. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:51 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata What were the issues? I've not seen a Magnum have power quality troubles, but they are not the "grid" either. My experience is that they are similar or a bit better than Outback, but certainly have measurable THD in the 4 to 5% range. Its almost always finicky loads, and the inverter has always been within its tolerances, so I doubt you have an actual warranty issue. However, I have seen inverter output get strange after lightning damage, which is not covered under warranty either. You need a decent meter that can measure THD, and can capture the peak voltage of the waveform. A good oscilloscope is even better, so you can see the waveform. Stuff like clocks not keeping time, or certain digital controls on certain appliances not functioning, is not a warranty claim. Lights dimming, or LEDs flickering is not a warranty claim. These are normal living off grid, and the only thing better than a Magnum for power quality is Exeltech in my experience. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/31/2023 11:37 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi all, I have a client with a Magnum MS 4024- PAE inverter. There are some serious issues with power output quality and according to the client, another installer had started the RMA process while the inverter was still under warranty, however Sensata has not been responsive and has lost track of the case. They are asking for a new case to be initiated, but the inverter is now out of warranty. Has anyone out there had similar lack luster support issues with Sensata? Best, Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed May 31 17:01:07 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 15:01:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata In-Reply-To: <009701d993f5$f61d82a0$e25887e0$@solartechvt.com> References: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> <009701d993f5$f61d82a0$e25887e0$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: <022201d99403$05a480e0$10ed82a0$@solarwork.com> MMPs – Many Missing Parts? Dana Orzel - E - dana at solarwork.com - C - 208.721.7003 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Rich Nicol via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:28 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: rich at solartechvt.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata Magnum has been difficult that last 3 years – we currently multiple inverters that are down needing boards for repair that can’t be obtained. It appears stock of new inverters is just starting to trickle back into suppliers so we hope to see parts soon. It seemed Magnum quality took also took a hit when purchased by Sensata and I think operations were moved to a new location? – we found MMP’s shipped with missing parts etc. The best tech support engineer they had went to Outback, but then was lost tragically to complications from Covid. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:51 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Ray Walters Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata What were the issues? I've not seen a Magnum have power quality troubles, but they are not the "grid" either. My experience is that they are similar or a bit better than Outback, but certainly have measurable THD in the 4 to 5% range. Its almost always finicky loads, and the inverter has always been within its tolerances, so I doubt you have an actual warranty issue. However, I have seen inverter output get strange after lightning damage, which is not covered under warranty either. You need a decent meter that can measure THD, and can capture the peak voltage of the waveform. A good oscilloscope is even better, so you can see the waveform. Stuff like clocks not keeping time, or certain digital controls on certain appliances not functioning, is not a warranty claim. Lights dimming, or LEDs flickering is not a warranty claim. These are normal living off grid, and the only thing better than a Magnum for power quality is Exeltech in my experience. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/31/2023 11:37 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi all, I have a client with a Magnum MS 4024- PAE inverter. There are some serious issues with power output quality and according to the client, another installer had started the RMA process while the inverter was still under warranty, however Sensata has not been responsive and has lost track of the case. They are asking for a new case to be initiated, but the inverter is now out of warranty. Has anyone out there had similar lack luster support issues with Sensata? Best, Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed May 31 17:05:10 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 14:05:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata In-Reply-To: <009701d993f5$f61d82a0$e25887e0$@solartechvt.com> References: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> <009701d993f5$f61d82a0$e25887e0$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: Just so you know, AEE Solar still has a bunch of Magnum panels and controls, no inverters, no support though. At least until they find someone to take it all. Keep an eye out for other close out stuff too. But, yes they are still going and working on getting better. Brad Bassett Retired--- 1985 Solar Engineering Services->Applied Power->Schott Applied Power->AEE Solar->AEE Solar (Mainstream Energy)->AEE Solar (Sunrun) 2023 On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 12:29 PM Rich Nicol via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Magnum has been difficult that last 3 years – we currently multiple > inverters that are down needing boards for repair that can’t be obtained. > It appears stock of new inverters is just starting to trickle back into > suppliers so we hope to see parts soon. > > It seemed Magnum quality took also took a hit when purchased by Sensata > and I think operations were moved to a new location? – we found MMP’s > shipped with missing parts etc. The best tech support engineer they had > went to Outback, but then was lost tragically to complications from Covid. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:51 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* Ray Walters > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata > > > > What were the issues? I've not seen a Magnum have power quality troubles, > but they are not the "grid" either. My experience is that they are similar > or a bit better than Outback, but certainly have measurable THD in the 4 to > 5% range. Its almost always finicky loads, and the inverter has always > been within its tolerances, so I doubt you have an actual warranty issue. > However, I have seen inverter output get strange after lightning damage, > which is not covered under warranty either. > > You need a decent meter that can measure THD, and can capture the peak > voltage of the waveform. A good oscilloscope is even better, so you can > see the waveform. > > Stuff like clocks not keeping time, or certain digital controls on certain > appliances not functioning, is not a warranty claim. Lights dimming, or > LEDs flickering is not a warranty claim. These are normal living off grid, > and the only thing better than a Magnum for power quality is Exeltech in my > experience. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/31/2023 11:37 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I have a client with a Magnum MS 4024- PAE inverter. There are some > serious issues with power output quality and according to the client, > another installer had started the RMA process while the inverter was still > under warranty, however Sensata has not been responsive and has lost track > of the case. They are asking for a new case to be initiated, but the > inverter is now out of warranty. Has anyone out there had similar lack > luster support issues with Sensata? > > > > Best, > > > > Chris > > -- > > Chris Sparadeo > > > > > > C_802-369-4458 > > H_802-728-3059 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed May 31 18:15:52 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 18:15:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata In-Reply-To: References: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> <009701d993f5$f61d82a0$e25887e0$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: Ray, I don’t have too much time into troubleshooting, but I have confirmed that inverter AC output readings on the RC are suggesting steady voltage and frequency but my meter readings are showing voltage from 108-135VAC per leg and 60-95 Hz with or without loads. It sounds like a bad AC relay, but I haven’t put in the head banging against the wall effort to track down tech support that the previous installer had. I agree, a THD would be a good next step. Kindly, Chris On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:06 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Just so you know, AEE Solar still has a bunch of Magnum panels and > controls, no inverters, no support though. At least until they find someone > to take it all. Keep an eye out for other close out stuff too. But, yes > they are still going and working on getting better. > > Brad Bassett > Retired--- > 1985 Solar Engineering Services->Applied Power->Schott Applied Power->AEE > Solar->AEE Solar (Mainstream Energy)->AEE Solar (Sunrun) 2023 > > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 12:29 PM Rich Nicol via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Magnum has been difficult that last 3 years – we currently multiple >> inverters that are down needing boards for repair that can’t be obtained. >> It appears stock of new inverters is just starting to trickle back into >> suppliers so we hope to see parts soon. >> >> It seemed Magnum quality took also took a hit when purchased by Sensata >> and I think operations were moved to a new location? – we found MMP’s >> shipped with missing parts etc. The best tech support engineer they had >> went to Outback, but then was lost tragically to complications from Covid. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:51 PM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Cc:* Ray Walters >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata >> >> >> >> What were the issues? I've not seen a Magnum have power quality >> troubles, but they are not the "grid" either. My experience is that they >> are similar or a bit better than Outback, but certainly have measurable THD >> in the 4 to 5% range. Its almost always finicky loads, and the inverter >> has always been within its tolerances, so I doubt you have an actual >> warranty issue. However, I have seen inverter output get strange after >> lightning damage, which is not covered under warranty either. >> >> You need a decent meter that can measure THD, and can capture the peak >> voltage of the waveform. A good oscilloscope is even better, so you can >> see the waveform. >> >> Stuff like clocks not keeping time, or certain digital controls on >> certain appliances not functioning, is not a warranty claim. Lights >> dimming, or LEDs flickering is not a warranty claim. These are normal >> living off grid, and the only thing better than a Magnum for power quality >> is Exeltech in my experience. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 5/31/2023 11:37 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I have a client with a Magnum MS 4024- PAE inverter. There are some >> serious issues with power output quality and according to the client, >> another installer had started the RMA process while the inverter was still >> under warranty, however Sensata has not been responsive and has lost track >> of the case. They are asking for a new case to be initiated, but the >> inverter is now out of warranty. Has anyone out there had similar lack >> luster support issues with Sensata? >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Chris >> >> -- >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> >> H_802-728-3059 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 1 00:21:12 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 22:21:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata In-Reply-To: References: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> <009701d993f5$f61d82a0$e25887e0$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: <74a53132-a9d5-d20b-2fca-7b90e5d1a59c@solarray.com> Those voltage and frequency variations are way out.  No need for THD readings.  You can't reliably run a household with that much variation, it will start letting the magic smoke out of many of the appliances.  I'm not sure about a bad relay, I don't see how that would cause that variation.  That sounds more like a cooked control board.  I had lightning damage cause an inverter to put out 140 vac, while its onboard electronics read 120 vac. If it helps, I have a used MS 4024 PAE (very low hours) that I could send to you.   Contact me off list if you want. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 5/31/2023 4:15 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Ray, I don’t have too much time into troubleshooting, but I have > confirmed that inverter AC output readings on the RC are suggesting > steady voltage and frequency but my  meter readings are showing > voltage from 108-135VAC per leg and 60-95 Hz with or without loads. It > sounds like a bad AC relay, but I haven’t put in the head banging > against the wall effort to track down tech support that the previous > installer had. > > I agree, a THD would be a good next step. > > Kindly, > > Chris > > > > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:06 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Just so you know, AEE Solar still has a bunch of Magnum panels and > controls, no inverters, no support though. At least until they > find someone to take it all. Keep an eye out for other close out > stuff too. But, yes they are still going and working on getting > better. > > Brad Bassett > Retired--- > 1985 Solar Engineering Services->Applied Power->Schott Applied > Power->AEE Solar->AEE Solar (Mainstream Energy)->AEE Solar > (Sunrun) 2023 > > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 12:29 PM Rich Nicol via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Magnum has been difficult that last 3 years – we currently > multiple inverters that are down needing boards for repair > that can’t be obtained. It appears stock of new inverters is > just starting to trickle back into suppliers so we hope to see > parts soon. > > It seemed Magnum quality took also took a hit when purchased > by Sensata and I think operations were moved to a new > location? – we found MMP’s shipped with missing parts etc. The > best tech support engineer they had went to Outback, but then > was lost tragically to complications from Covid. > > *From:*RE-wrenches > [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf > Of *Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:51 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* Ray Walters > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata > > What were the issues?  I've not seen a Magnum have power > quality troubles, but they are not the "grid" either.  My > experience is that they are similar or a bit better than > Outback, but certainly have measurable THD in the 4 to 5% > range.  Its almost always finicky loads, and the inverter has > always been within its tolerances, so I doubt you have an > actual warranty issue.  However, I have seen inverter output > get strange after lightning damage, which is not covered under > warranty either. > > You need a decent meter that can measure THD, and can capture > the peak voltage of the waveform.  A good oscilloscope is even > better, so you can see the waveform. > > Stuff like clocks not keeping time, or certain digital > controls on certain appliances not functioning, is not a > warranty claim. Lights dimming, or LEDs flickering is not a > warranty claim.  These are normal living off grid, and the > only thing better than a Magnum for power quality is Exeltech > in my experience. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/31/2023 11:37 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a client with a Magnum MS 4024- PAE inverter. There > are some serious issues with power output quality and > according to the client, another installer had started the > RMA process while the inverter was still under warranty, > however Sensata has not been responsive and has lost track > of the case. They are asking for a new case to be > initiated, but the inverter is now out of warranty. Has > anyone out there had similar lack luster support issues > with Sensata? > > Best, > > Chris > > -- > > Chris Sparadeo > > C_802-369-4458 > > H_802-728-3059 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jun 1 12:18:18 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 12:18:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter Message-ID: Hello All, I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters are somewhat similar. Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 12:28:11 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 10:28:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 12:45:27 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 12:45:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, I have not tried the new Envy inverter, and at the moment am slightly reluctant to do so, mostly because I have gone all in on Sol-Ark/eVault Max setups for battery based systems and I hate having more and more different products to stay on top of. That being said, I attended an Envy webinar, and on first pass, programming and interface seemed pretty well thought out with the Envy (although in general, I've been pretty happy with the Sol-Ark, but from a distance the Envy looked like an improvement). The advantage with an Envy is the single company so interface issues won't devolve into a guessing game between 2 companies. None-the-less, for the time being, I'm staying with the Sol-Ark... Howie Sun Catcher On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 12:20 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY > inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters > are somewhat similar. > > Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Jun 1 13:15:48 2023 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 13:15:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69E45C03-8490-47D3-977B-C9C15F982F6F@villagepowerdesign.com> This is incorrect. Deye does not make the ENVY. Contact me off list if you want to discuss Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 1, 2023, at 12:28 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi Kirk > > It’s the same Chinese company who makes both. Deye > > If I understand correctly sol ark’s exclusive arrangement with Deye ended. > > Jay > >>> On Jun 1, 2023, at 10:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>  >> Hello All, >> >> I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters are somewhat similar. >> >> Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. >> >> -- >> Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar >> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >> Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!! >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 15:38:37 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 14:38:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, just an onion of an old person. I have needed a lot of tech help, I find Sol-Ark the best tech, So I would go with experiance. On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 11:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY > inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters > are somewhat similar. > > Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 1 17:01:19 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 14:01:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk Personally I would go with solark that's what they do, make inverters not other stuff just like I would use Fortress for the battery because that's what they do, is it similar sure but why? If it's the same then go with a known product and track record, we are seeing this mre and more and that does not always turn out that well. Jerry On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 9:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY > inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters > are somewhat similar. > > Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu Jun 1 17:33:36 2023 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 17:33:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverte Message-ID: Kirk, I was going to make the jump to Fortress Envy after the recent NABCEP conference. Seemed like a good way to go, i.e. one company to deal with and about same features as SA. When I went to purchase from well known (unnamed) dist, I was warned away due to unresolved issues with AC coupling. I couldn’t get more info or details - just got pointed to other solutions. I’m waiting and watching to see how they do before I make the jump. I’m not in the business of being front line support for these guys. I will say they were very good at responding to my design questions, but when I brought this little AC coupling issue up - crickets. I also don’t like their “ticket” system for tech support. Frustrating! Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jun 2 10:02:58 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2023 10:02:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tech Support Issues with Sensata In-Reply-To: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> References: <7feadc91-1487-2d4f-b612-65c93512c9b1@solarray.com> Message-ID: We had one Magnum PAE 4048 have the frequency go high. It would not AC couple. When checking the frequency, it was out of range for the on grid inverters. So far, my tech support experience with Sensata has been good. The equipment I've installed has been problematic. I like the PAE system, but the inverters keep coming back off the wall. Drake Athens Electric --- On 2023-05-31 13:50, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > What were the issues? I've not seen a Magnum have power quality troubles, but they are not the "grid" either. My experience is that they are similar or a bit better than Outback, but certainly have measurable THD in the 4 to 5% range. Its almost always finicky loads, and the inverter has always been within its tolerances, so I doubt you have an actual warranty issue. However, I have seen inverter output get strange after lightning damage, which is not covered under warranty either. > > You need a decent meter that can measure THD, and can capture the peak voltage of the waveform. A good oscilloscope is even better, so you can see the waveform. > > Stuff like clocks not keeping time, or certain digital controls on certain appliances not functioning, is not a warranty claim. Lights dimming, or LEDs flickering is not a warranty claim. These are normal living off grid, and the only thing better than a Magnum for power quality is Exeltech in my experience. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 5/31/2023 11:37 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have a client with a Magnum MS 4024- PAE inverter. There are some serious issues with power output quality and according to the client, another installer had started the RMA process while the inverter was still under warranty, however Sensata has not been responsive and has lost track of the case. They are asking for a new case to be initiated, but the inverter is now out of warranty. Has anyone out there had similar lack luster support issues with Sensata? >> >> Best, >> >> Chris -- >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Jun 3 13:07:17 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 12:07:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need detailed help with Pytee battery Message-ID: I have a Pytee battery that has gone into alarm. Won't come out. Pytee says to connect the computer and diagnose. That is all they said. They do not answer emails asking for further advice. Does anyone know what to do? Sps to use? Address to use? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Jun 4 20:42:22 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2023 20:42:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need detailed help with Pytee battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Daryl, I purchased some Pytes batteries for my brother-in-law this spring, as I had some contact with them, and he wanted to try their batteries. I've had no contact with their support team at all, and the only real contact I have is the sales person I dealt with, Austin Li (austin_li at pytesgroup.com, WhatsApp:+8618030254164). Maybe contacting him will help you get to their tech support in a more useful way. You can try mentioning my name although I have no idea if that will be at all helpful. If you get anywhere, I'd be curious to know, since I'm sure my brother-in-law will be in need of tech support at some time in the future. Good Luck, Howie Sun Catcher 802-272-0004 On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 1:08 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have a Pytee battery that has gone into alarm. Won't come out. > Pytee says to connect the computer and diagnose. That is all they said. > They do not answer emails asking for further advice. Does anyone know > what to do? Sps to use? Address to use? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Mon Jun 5 09:30:05 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 07:30:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Web based system monitoring via 4GLTE uplink? Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ Web portals such as Optics-RE make for easy well-baby visits for off gridders. The prospective customers that I met yesterday aren't here full time so they may not want to commit $1200/year on satellite internet service, but the Verizon 4G signal is strong at the homesite. Which web-enabled battery based inverter platforms have a dongle for 4G LTE? I know we'd need a data type SIM card & I'd need to live with a slow refresh rate so the SIM wouldn't need data replenishment too often. This wouldn't be as good as if the site had real broadband, but maybe still better than nothing. So far, I've only found this type of accy with the Victron platform: their model GX LTE. Among the other platforms & hybrid inverters I've found next to nothing, but "the Wrench List is the Bomb" at knowing things that I don't. Any suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 10:16:23 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 08:16:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Web based system monitoring via 4GLTE uplink? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, I'll vouch that the Victron solution works great. You need a GSM carrier, TMobile works as well as others, AT&T for one. The GSM piece is important, Verizon won't work with this. Another approach is to do a Mifi box with Verizon, then just use it as a wireless hotspot like any WiFi network. No problems with the single Victron that we have out there. Good luck! On Mon, Jun 5, 2023, 7:30 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ Web portals such as Optics-RE make for easy well-baby visits > for off gridders. The prospective customers that I met yesterday aren't > here full time so they may not want to commit $1200/year on satellite > internet service, but the Verizon 4G signal is strong at the homesite. > > Which web-enabled battery based inverter platforms have a dongle for 4G > LTE? I know we'd need a data type SIM card & I'd need to live with a slow > refresh rate so the SIM wouldn't need data replenishment too often. This > wouldn't be as good as if the site had real broadband, but maybe still > better than nothing. > > So far, I've only found this type of accy with the Victron platform: their > model GX LTE. Among the other platforms & hybrid inverters I've found next > to nothing, but "the Wrench List is the Bomb" at knowing things that I > don't. Any suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance, > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 10:54:14 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 07:54:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Web based system monitoring via 4GLTE uplink? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I have used Verizon cellular modems, looks the same works the same just pay for data mine was 25 per month 2 year contract, very simple, I plugged in both the blueplanet battery's and outback mate and there we had it. I'm sure all the carriers have the same thing. Fun times On Mon, Jun 5, 2023, 6:30 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ Web portals such as Optics-RE make for easy well-baby visits > for off gridders. The prospective customers that I met yesterday aren't > here full time so they may not want to commit $1200/year on satellite > internet service, but the Verizon 4G signal is strong at the homesite. > > Which web-enabled battery based inverter platforms have a dongle for 4G > LTE? I know we'd need a data type SIM card & I'd need to live with a slow > refresh rate so the SIM wouldn't need data replenishment too often. This > wouldn't be as good as if the site had real broadband, but maybe still > better than nothing. > > So far, I've only found this type of accy with the Victron platform: their > model GX LTE. Among the other platforms & hybrid inverters I've found next > to nothing, but "the Wrench List is the Bomb" at knowing things that I > don't. Any suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance, > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 12:15:06 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 11:15:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need detailed help with Pytee battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, I have sent the message to Pytes, and I will let Rewrench know if this works. o On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 7:43 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Daryl, > I purchased some Pytes batteries for my brother-in-law this spring, as I > had some contact with them, and he wanted to try their batteries. I've had > no contact with their support team at all, and the only real contact I have > is the sales person I dealt with, Austin Li (austin_li at pytesgroup.com, > WhatsApp:+8618030254164). Maybe contacting him will help you get to their > tech support in a more useful way. You can try mentioning my name although > I have no idea if that will be at all helpful. If you get anywhere, I'd be > curious to know, since I'm sure my brother-in-law will be in need of tech > support at some time in the future. > Good Luck, > Howie > Sun Catcher > 802-272-0004 > > > > On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 1:08 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have a Pytee battery that has gone into alarm. Won't come out. >> Pytee says to connect the computer and diagnose. That is all they said. >> They do not answer emails asking for further advice. Does anyone know >> what to do? Sps to use? Address to use? >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 18:47:49 2023 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 18:47:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II Message-ID: Hey all, I had started a thread about bonding to metal roofs in 2018 but can't figure out how to respond via the archive. I know some things have changed since then, so I'm circling back and starting a new thread. In NY one of our inspection agencies (NYSERDA) requires bonding of metal roof panels below the array, as well as within a 3' perimeter of the array. S-5! in combination with Ironridge is now listed to bond the roof under the array (so long as you hit every pan with an attachment) but this doesn't solve the problem of trying to bond within the 3' perimeter. For installs where we are only 18" from the ridge, this means we are required to bond the adjacent roof as well. Whenever possible we install Illsco SGB-4 lugs under the ridge cap. But more and more we're finding roofs where the ridge cap feels inaccessible, tricky, or where we simply don't want to get into roof warranty issues associated with opening up a prior contractor's work. Wondering if anyone else is coming up against this and what some possible creative solutions might be. I don't want to walk away from potential projects but... As always, thanks for any thoughts Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Mon Jun 5 18:54:05 2023 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 15:54:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07873DBA-0D83-4E4D-AC85-5B35CCFCF15D@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 5 18:55:19 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2023 15:55:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Adam, Creative solution #1 Do not install solar on any roof if you can ground mount it. Is this He Adam or the Him Adam? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-05 3:47 pm, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey all, > I had started a thread about bonding to metal roofs in 2018 but can't > figure out how to respond via the archive. I know some things have > changed since then, so I'm circling back and starting a new thread. > > In NY one of our inspection agencies (NYSERDA) requires bonding of > metal roof panels below the array, as well as within a 3' perimeter of > the array. S-5! in combination with Ironridge is now listed to bond the > roof under the array (so long as you hit every pan with an attachment) > but this doesn't solve the problem of trying to bond within the 3' > perimeter. For installs where we are only 18" from the ridge, this > means we are required to bond the adjacent roof as well. > > Whenever possible we install Illsco SGB-4 lugs under the ridge cap. But > more and more we're finding roofs where the ridge cap feels > inaccessible, tricky, or where we simply don't want to get into roof > warranty issues associated with opening up a prior contractor's work. > > Wondering if anyone else is coming up against this and what some > possible creative solutions might be. I don't want to walk away from > potential projects but... > > As always, thanks for any thoughts > Adam > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com [1] > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.autonomousenergies.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Jun 6 09:00:03 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 09:00:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Web based system monitoring via 4GLTE uplink? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c77794f88ba36490cbc3774e3ff39fb@redwoodalliance.org> We use a Verizon Jet Pack for our internet. It wants to have its battery charged and then be unplugged, like any cell phone. Is there a variety that can be left plugged in? Charging could be set up to be intermittent with a timer switch. Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-06-05 10:16, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Mick, > > I'll vouch that the Victron solution works great. You need a GSM carrier, TMobile works as well as others, AT&T for one. The GSM piece is important, Verizon won't work with this. > > Another approach is to do a Mifi box with Verizon, then just use it as a wireless hotspot like any WiFi network. > > No problems with the single Victron that we have out there. > > Good luck! > > On Mon, Jun 5, 2023, 7:30 AM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi, Mechanix~ Web portals such as Optics-RE make for easy well-baby visits for off gridders. The prospective customers that I met yesterday aren't here full time so they may not want to commit $1200/year on satellite internet service, but the Verizon 4G signal is strong at the homesite. >> >> Which web-enabled battery based inverter platforms have a dongle for 4G LTE? I know we'd need a data type SIM card & I'd need to live with a slow refresh rate so the SIM wouldn't need data replenishment too often. This wouldn't be as good as if the site had real broadband, but maybe still better than nothing. >> >> So far, I've only found this type of accy with the Victron platform: their model GX LTE. Among the other platforms & hybrid inverters I've found next to nothing, but "the Wrench List is the Bomb" at knowing things that I don't. Any suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks in advance, >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com [1] >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> ᐧ _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abrahamsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 6 10:23:20 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:23:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm watching this thread with interest. Is anyone aware of any serious injury or property damage caused by an energized metal roof, and if so, what were the circumstances? Is bonding metal roofs a solution looking for a problem? In response to the ground mount alternative, that isn't really an option in many areas of Florida where the cost can be 50% higher or more to ground mount if it's even practical due to flood level. Tile and shingle roofs in Southwest Florida are being switched to metal at shocking rates in the wake of Hurricane Ian, and we love it from an installer's standpoint. Fortunately, I haven't run into any bonding inspection issues for over 10 years here. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 8:28 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Adam, > > Creative solution #1 Do not install solar on any roof if you can ground > mount it. > > Is this He Adam or the Him Adam? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-06-05 3:47 pm, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey all, > I had started a thread about bonding to metal roofs in 2018 but can't > figure out how to respond via the archive. I know some things have changed > since then, so I'm circling back and starting a new thread. > > In NY one of our inspection agencies (NYSERDA) requires bonding of metal > roof panels below the array, as well as within a 3' perimeter of the array. > S-5! in combination with Ironridge is now listed to bond the roof under the > array (so long as you hit every pan with an attachment) but this doesn't > solve the problem of trying to bond within the 3' perimeter. For installs > where we are only 18" from the ridge, this means we are required to bond > the adjacent roof as well. > > Whenever possible we install Illsco SGB-4 lugs under the ridge cap. But > more and more we're finding roofs where the ridge cap feels inaccessible, > tricky, or where we simply don't want to get into roof warranty issues > associated with opening up a prior contractor's work. > > Wondering if anyone else is coming up against this and what some possible > creative solutions might be. I don't want to walk away from potential > projects but... > > As always, thanks for any thoughts > Adam > > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Jun 6 11:10:58 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 11:10:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Open Delta to 208Y/120 Volt Message-ID: Hello All, We are looking for a transformer to connect Sol-Ark inverters to an open delta service. The Sol-Ark can only connect to a Wye configuration. We found one which the supplier says will do the job. It is an MGM, 240 Delta to 208Y/120 Volt, 3-Phase. The supplier says this will derive a neutral which can be grounded for a solid neutral connection. My concerns with what we have found so far are: 1) How much efficiency will be lost due to connecting to an open delta? 2) Will the derived neutral really be sufficient? 3) The cost of the unit we found is high. Does anyone know of a source for economically priced transformers. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From william at millersolar.com Tue Jun 6 11:34:59 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 08:34:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Open Delta to 208Y/120 Volt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake: You should be able to connect to a 120/240 split phase feeder. Avoid the stinger. I have done it with FXRs , works just fine. Wm On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 8:11 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > We are looking for a transformer to connect Sol-Ark inverters to an open > delta service. The Sol-Ark can only connect to a Wye configuration. > > We found one which the supplier says will do the job. It is an MGM, 240 > Delta to 208Y/120 Volt, 3-Phase. > > The supplier says this will derive a neutral which can be grounded for a > solid neutral connection. > > My concerns with what we have found so far are: > 1) How much efficiency will be lost due to connecting to an open delta? > 2) Will the derived neutral really be sufficient? > 3) The cost of the unit we found is high. Does anyone know of a source > for economically priced transformers. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Jun 6 12:08:20 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 12:08:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II Message-ID: If I am not mistaken, this derives from some UL testing that showed that a metal roof may become energized during a thermal event.I suppose no less important than our RSD requirements...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Jun 6, 2023 10:25 AMTo: offgridsolar at sti.net;RE-wrenches;Cc: Jason Szumlanski;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part III'm watching this thread with interest. Is anyone aware of any serious injury or property damage caused by an energized metal roof, and if so, what were the circumstances? Is bonding metal roofs a solution looking for a problem?In response to the ground mount alternative, that isn't really an option in many areas of Florida where the cost can be 50% higher or more to ground mount if it's even practical due to flood level. Tile and shingle roofs in Southwest Florida are being switched to metal at shocking rates in the wake of Hurricane Ian, and we love it from an installer's standpoint. Fortunately, I haven't run into any bonding inspection issues for over 10 years here.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 8:28 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: Hey Adam,   Creative solution #1  Do not install solar on any roof if you can ground mount it.   Is this He Adam or the Him Adam?   Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-05 3:47 pm, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: Hey all, I had started a thread about bonding to metal roofs in 2018 but can't figure out how to respond via the archive. I know some things have changed since then, so I'm circling back and starting a new thread.    In NY one of our inspection agencies (NYSERDA) requires bonding of metal roof panels below the array, as well as within a 3' perimeter of the array. S-5! in combination with Ironridge is now listed to bond the roof under the array (so long as you hit every pan with an attachment) but this doesn't solve the problem of trying to bond within the 3' perimeter. For installs where we are only 18" from the ridge, this means we are required to bond the adjacent roof as well.   Whenever possible we install Illsco SGB-4 lugs under the ridge cap. But more and more we're finding roofs where the ridge cap feels inaccessible, tricky, or where we simply don't want to get into roof warranty issues associated with opening up a prior contractor's work.   Wondering if anyone else is coming up against this and what some possible creative solutions might be. I don't want to walk away from potential projects but...   As always, thanks for any thoughts Adam   Adam Katzman (he/him)Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com(518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Jun 6 13:42:47 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2023 13:42:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Open Delta to 208Y/120 Volt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14e97daff4ee61c8e8b4194ed5b8d1e7@redwoodalliance.org> William, Sol-Ark says they can only connect to a Wye, and that they need a neutral. Thanks, Drake --- On 2023-06-06 11:34, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Drake: > > You should be able to connect to a 120/240 split phase feeder. Avoid the stinger. I have done it with FXRs , works just fine. > > Wm > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 8:11 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> We are looking for a transformer to connect Sol-Ark inverters to an open >> delta service. The Sol-Ark can only connect to a Wye configuration. >> >> We found one which the supplier says will do the job. It is an MGM, 240 >> Delta to 208Y/120 Volt, 3-Phase. >> >> The supplier says this will derive a neutral which can be grounded for a >> solid neutral connection. >> >> My concerns with what we have found so far are: >> 1) How much efficiency will be lost due to connecting to an open delta? >> 2) Will the derived neutral really be sufficient? >> 3) The cost of the unit we found is high. Does anyone know of a source >> for economically priced transformers. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician's License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 6 14:33:20 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2023 12:33:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Wed Jun 7 15:01:17 2023 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 15:01:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks Message-ID: <82113A65-62A3-489E-BA55-FB38FF4BC509@solshineenergy.com> Wrenches, Looking for some guidance on setbacks at ridge for PV systems. The 2018 code states the following: R324.6.2 Setback at ridge. For photovoltaic arrays occupying not more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less than an 18-inch (457 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. For photovoltaic arrays occupying more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less than a 36-inch (914 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. In reading this  article put out by Ipsun Solar regarding the setbacks, they state that if there’s no PV on the opposite side of the roof no setback is required, although their diagram shows a 12” setback. I don’t see any exceptions in the code that indicate that. What’re you all doing for ridge setbacks? Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Jun 7 16:26:50 2023 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 13:26:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks In-Reply-To: <82113A65-62A3-489E-BA55-FB38FF4BC509@solshineenergy.com> References: <82113A65-62A3-489E-BA55-FB38FF4BC509@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: 18" setback at the ridge, assuming <33%. Doesn't matter what's on the other side of the ridge. For hips (not ridges), we are usually allowed to take advantage of the "other side" as long as there is a 36" path in total (eg, 6" on one side of the hip, and 30" on the other side). Blake On Wed, Jun 7, 2023, 12:02 PM rick--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > Looking for some guidance on setbacks at ridge for PV systems. The 2018 > code states the following: > > R324.6.2 Setback at ridge. > > For photovoltaic arrays occupying not more than 33 percent of the plan > view total roof area, not less than an 18-inch (457 mm) clear setback is > required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. For photovoltaic arrays > occupying more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less > than a 36-inch (914 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a > horizontal ridge. > > In reading this > article > put out by Ipsun Solar regarding the setbacks, they state that if there’s > no PV on the opposite side of the roof no setback is required, although > their diagram shows a 12” setback. I don’t see any exceptions in the code > that indicate that. What’re you all doing for ridge setbacks? > > Thanks, > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > [image: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 7 16:59:43 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 13:59:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks In-Reply-To: <82113A65-62A3-489E-BA55-FB38FF4BC509@solshineenergy.com> References: <82113A65-62A3-489E-BA55-FB38FF4BC509@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: Rick: I think this is a state by state issue. From this article : “Building codes vary from state to state and between jurisdictions.” In all jusrisdictions in my part of California, the local Fire Marshal is the final arbiter on what is allowed. Some building departments provide specifications for setbacks and some require I submit a plan for review to the Fire Marshal. If you are seeing conflicting requirements, reach out to the Fire Marshal and the building department. What I get away with will have little bearing on how your local officials may rule. I have obtained variances for being a few inches short of the required distance or if the pathway that the setback would create is otherwise inaccesble due to lack of safe ladder-set location. This was accomplished by approaching the Fire Marshall with a clear drawing and good logic. I hope this helps, William Miller PS: The article you cite reads like the world, as we know it, will end with the adoption of setbacks in Virginia. I felt the same way years ago when California adopted setbacks, but I am still alive. Sure, some projects allow less PV on a roof now, but I have to rely on experts to inform me what is safe for firefighters because I have no expertise on the issue. WM Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *rick--- via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, June 7, 2023 12:01 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* rick at solshineenergy.com *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks Wrenches, Looking for some guidance on setbacks at ridge for PV systems. The 2018 code states the following: R324.6.2 Setback at ridge. For photovoltaic arrays occupying not more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less than an 18-inch (457 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. For photovoltaic arrays occupying more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less than a 36-inch (914 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. In reading this article put out by Ipsun Solar regarding the setbacks, they state that if there’s no PV on the opposite side of the roof no setback is required, although their diagram shows a 12” setback. I don’t see any exceptions in the code that indicate that. What’re you all doing for ridge setbacks? Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Roanoke, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 [image: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Jun 7 17:20:56 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 14:20:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks In-Reply-To: References: <82113A65-62A3-489E-BA55-FB38FF4BC509@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: It looks like Virginia is indeed on the amended 2018 version of the IRC. I've found that UpCodes is pretty cool (normally I just use the California codes since that's where we work): https://up.codes/codes/virginia I think that article that Rick pointed to was talking about the 3' pathways required from the roof edge to the ridge, not the 18" setbacks from the ridge. Here's the pathway screenshot: [image: image.png] August On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 2:14 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Rick: > > > > I think this is a state by state issue. From this article > > : > > > > “Building codes vary from state to state and between jurisdictions.” > > > > In all jusrisdictions in my part of California, the local Fire Marshal is > the final arbiter on what is allowed. Some building departments provide > specifications for setbacks and some require I submit a plan for review to > the Fire Marshal. > > > > If you are seeing conflicting requirements, reach out to the Fire Marshal > and the building department. What I get away with will have little bearing > on how your local officials may rule. > > > > I have obtained variances for being a few inches short of the required > distance or if the pathway that the setback would create is otherwise > inaccesble due to lack of safe ladder-set location. This was accomplished > by approaching the Fire Marshall with a clear drawing and good logic. > > > > I hope this helps, > > > > William Miller > > > > PS: The article you cite reads like the world, as we know it, will end > with the adoption of setbacks in Virginia. I felt the same way years ago > when California adopted setbacks, but I am still alive. Sure, some > projects allow less PV on a roof now, but I have to rely on experts to > inform me what is safe for firefighters because I have no expertise on the > issue. > > > > WM > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *rick--- via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 7, 2023 12:01 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* rick at solshineenergy.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks > > > > Wrenches, > > > > Looking for some guidance on setbacks at ridge for PV systems. The 2018 > code states the following: > > > R324.6.2 Setback at ridge. > > For photovoltaic arrays occupying not more than 33 percent of the plan > view total roof area, not less than an 18-inch (457 mm) clear setback is > required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. For photovoltaic arrays > occupying more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less > than a 36-inch (914 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a > horizontal ridge. > > > > In reading this > article > put out by Ipsun Solar regarding the setbacks, they state that if there’s > no PV on the opposite side of the roof no setback is required, although > their diagram shows a 12” setback. I don’t see any exceptions in the code > that indicate that. What’re you all doing for ridge setbacks? > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Roanoke, VA > > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > [image: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg] > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 33229 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 7 18:40:09 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2023 18:40:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2018 Residential Code Fire Setbacks In-Reply-To: <82113A65-62A3-489E-BA55-FB38FF4BC509@solshineenergy.com> References: <82113A65-62A3-489E-BA55-FB38FF4BC509@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: If you read the section carefully, it reads on both sides of "a" horizontal ridge. It does not read "each" or "all'" horizontal ridges. I know that this interpretation has worked in some jurisdictions in Florida. On many hip roofs, there could be several horizontal ridges. It could be interpreted or rationalized that the intent is both sides of the *highest* horizontal ridge. Unfortunately, it's rare for an AHJ around here to enforce fire setbacks at all, so most contractors go right up to the ridge without a second thought. I've seen my share of panels over the ridge even. The Florida Building Code in effect now requires AHJs to enforce setbacks as they are included in the code, but most of them never get on the roof and they do inspections by having the contractor sign away their first born via affidavit saying that we did what is required. Commercial work is different. Usually, the fire marshall is involved in these plan reviews and inspections. Long story short, we thought it was going to be a nightmare here, but as we got to know each jurisdiction's wants, we just complied and it all worked out. It helps to have a menu of different panel lengths to fit multiple rows when it's a close call. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 3:02 PM rick--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > Looking for some guidance on setbacks at ridge for PV systems. The 2018 > code states the following: > > R324.6.2 Setback at ridge. > > For photovoltaic arrays occupying not more than 33 percent of the plan > view total roof area, not less than an 18-inch (457 mm) clear setback is > required on both sides of a horizontal ridge. For photovoltaic arrays > occupying more than 33 percent of the plan view total roof area, not less > than a 36-inch (914 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of a > horizontal ridge. > > In reading this > article > put out by Ipsun Solar regarding the setbacks, they state that if there’s > no PV on the opposite side of the roof no setback is required, although > their diagram shows a 12” setback. I don’t see any exceptions in the code > that indicate that. What’re you all doing for ridge setbacks? > > Thanks, > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Roanoke, VA > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > [image: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jun 8 14:32:35 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 14:32:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also being in NYS, I have been familiar with this requirement for a long time. I believe the idea is that just like how any metal part in a system needs to be grounded, metal roof panels under solar panels are kind of part of the system. What if a wire comes loose and touches the roof? You would not want someone going up there to get zapped. I see the point that the worst you can do with RSD is 80V. But in NY at least, you cant really argue with NYSERDA if they decide they want this. I have never come across a building or electrical inspector here that would care about this, but NYSERDA does and that is where the incentive money comes from... On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 2:34 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > But isn’t the whole concept of RS to prevent the energizing of say a metal > roof? > > The inverter sees a ground fault or ark fault. Trips off line, the RS > activate and now it’s less than 80v. Isn’t that what it’s supposed to do? > > What is the purpose of grounding the metal roof? > > Jay > > On Jun 6, 2023, at 10:09 AM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > If I am not mistaken, this derives from some UL testing that showed that a > metal roof may become energized during a thermal event. > > I suppose no less important than our RSD requirements... > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Tue, Jun 6, 2023 10:25 AM > *To: *offgridsolar at sti.net;RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski; > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II > > I'm watching this thread with interest. Is anyone aware of any serious > injury or property damage caused by an energized metal roof, and if so, > what were the circumstances? Is bonding metal roofs a solution looking for > a problem? > > In response to the ground mount alternative, that isn't really an option > in many areas of Florida where the cost can be 50% higher or more to ground > mount if it's even practical due to flood level. Tile and shingle roofs in > Southwest Florida are being switched to metal at shocking rates in the wake > of Hurricane Ian, and we love it from an installer's standpoint. > Fortunately, I haven't run into any bonding inspection issues for over 10 > years here. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 8:28 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Hey Adam, >> >> Creative solution #1 Do not install solar on any roof if you can ground >> mount it. >> >> Is this He Adam or the Him Adam? >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* >> >> >> On 2023-06-05 3:47 pm, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hey all, >> I had started a thread about bonding to metal roofs in 2018 but can't >> figure out how to respond via the archive. I know some things have changed >> since then, so I'm circling back and starting a new thread. >> >> In NY one of our inspection agencies (NYSERDA) requires bonding of metal >> roof panels below the array, as well as within a 3' perimeter of the array. >> S-5! in combination with Ironridge is now listed to bond the roof under the >> array (so long as you hit every pan with an attachment) but this doesn't >> solve the problem of trying to bond within the 3' perimeter. For installs >> where we are only 18" from the ridge, this means we are required to bond >> the adjacent roof as well. >> >> Whenever possible we install Illsco SGB-4 lugs under the ridge cap. But >> more and more we're finding roofs where the ridge cap feels inaccessible, >> tricky, or where we simply don't want to get into roof warranty issues >> associated with opening up a prior contractor's work. >> >> Wondering if anyone else is coming up against this and what some possible >> creative solutions might be. I don't want to walk away from potential >> projects but... >> >> As always, thanks for any thoughts >> Adam >> >> >> Adam Katzman (he/him) >> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 279-4258 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vince at solarenergydesign.com Thu Jun 8 21:33:38 2023 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 18:33:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Open Delta to 208Y/120 Volt In-Reply-To: <14e97daff4ee61c8e8b4194ed5b8d1e7@redwoodalliance.org> References: <14e97daff4ee61c8e8b4194ed5b8d1e7@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: If you want to go with the transformer route, try Dongan Transformers. They've helped us a few times with tech support, and they should be able to help in this situation. As I understand it though, there is a loss of efficiency when you grid-tie through an open delta. I have the same issue with a large residential installation. My client is deciding whether to upgrade his service to a 240 split phase as he doesn't need the three-phase power. Most utilities I know of are phasing out the old 240 Delta services. Pun intended. Best of luck, Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 10:43 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > Sol-Ark says they can only connect to a Wye, and that they need a neutral. > > Thanks, > > Drake > --- > > > > On 2023-06-06 11:34, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Drake: > > You should be able to connect to a 120/240 split phase feeder. Avoid the > stinger. I have done it with FXRs , works just fine. > > Wm > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 8:11 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello All, > > We are looking for a transformer to connect Sol-Ark inverters to an open > delta service. The Sol-Ark can only connect to a Wye configuration. > > We found one which the supplier says will do the job. It is an MGM, 240 > Delta to 208Y/120 Volt, 3-Phase. > > The supplier says this will derive a neutral which can be grounded for a > solid neutral connection. > > My concerns with what we have found so far are: > 1) How much efficiency will be lost due to connecting to an open delta? > 2) Will the derived neutral really be sufficient? > 3) The cost of the unit we found is high. Does anyone know of a source > for economically priced transformers. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 > CO Master Electrician's License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sun Jun 11 13:37:29 2023 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 09:37:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions Message-ID: <04f0945d-d794-963f-4b46-fc285e704364@remotepowerinc.com> Friends, I'm currently onsite with a system.  Just replaced 4 XW + 6848's with 4 XW Pros.  Updated the Gateway to rev. 1.17 and the Pros to 2.04.  Have some questions/observations so far. System: Off Grid with 4 XW Pros, 18 MPPT 80 600s, 2 SCPs, 1 Gateway, 1 Battery Monitor, 1 AGS.  3000 ahr of NiFe batteries.  36 kW Kubota Genset. I tried using the Inverter SCP to program settings on the new inverters and it took everything but when I checked on InsightLocal the settings had not changed.  They were all still default so I had to go through it again one at a time through insightlocal.  I'm guessing the SCP no longer works for programming with the Gateway? Can anyone confirm?  Programming used to work through the SCP with the old XW+ inverters and firmware. Tried using the Solar SCP to change settings on the charge controls but had to use insight local to change each individually.  Used to be able to use  the "copy from" function which was a real time saver.  Wondering if anyone else has run into the same problem, or if it works for them, what am I missing?  Is there a cool way to change one setting with insightlocal and get it to change the other 17? Observations: - looking at the CC's via insightlocal,     under configuration -> advanced ->controls - I set all chargers "enabled" but the next day or so they all go to "disabled".  They all still work though.  Doesn't seem to affect operations.     under configuration -> advanced ->charger settings - I have the first CC set to "primary" and the rest to secondary.  No idea if that's right or not.  seems to work.  Options are "stand-alone, primary, secondary and echo".  I could not find definitions in the manual on them. - looking at the XW Pros via insight local,     under configuration -> advanced ->controls -> Backup Mode - I disabled BAckup mode since I'm not backing up the grid. _System shut down immediately._  Backup mode must be enabled when you're off grid. Thanks in advance : ) Greg Egan Remote Power Inc Fairbanks, AK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 11 13:49:58 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 11:49:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions In-Reply-To: <04f0945d-d794-963f-4b46-fc285e704364@remotepowerinc.com> References: <04f0945d-d794-963f-4b46-fc285e704364@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <6156905B-DFE0-4FBB-B7EF-6CFC1BC29FC2@gmail.com> Hi greg There was just a thread that discussed you can’t use the scp to program the pro. Have to use insight. If I understand correctly. Hopefully others more knowledgeable will chime in about your other issues too. Good luck Jay > On Jun 11, 2023, at 11:37 AM, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  Friends, > > I'm currently onsite with a system. Just replaced 4 XW + 6848's with 4 XW Pros. Updated the Gateway to rev. 1.17 and the Pros to 2.04. Have some questions/observations so far. > > System: Off Grid with 4 XW Pros, 18 MPPT 80 600s, 2 SCPs, 1 Gateway, 1 Battery Monitor, 1 AGS. 3000 ahr of NiFe batteries. 36 kW Kubota Genset. > > I tried using the Inverter SCP to program settings on the new inverters and it took everything but when I checked on InsightLocal the settings had not changed. They were all still default so I had to go through it again one at a time through insightlocal. I'm guessing the SCP no longer works for programming with the Gateway? Can anyone confirm? Programming used to work through the SCP with the old XW+ inverters and firmware. > > Tried using the Solar SCP to change settings on the charge controls but had to use insight local to change each individually. Used to be able to use the "copy from" function which was a real time saver. Wondering if anyone else has run into the same problem, or if it works for them, what am I missing? Is there a cool way to change one setting with insightlocal and get it to change the other 17? > > Observations: > - looking at the CC's via insightlocal, > under configuration -> advanced ->controls - I set all chargers "enabled" but the next day or so they all go to "disabled". They all still work though. Doesn't seem to affect operations. > > under configuration -> advanced ->charger settings - I have the first CC set to "primary" and the rest to secondary. No idea if that's right or not. seems to work. Options are "stand-alone, primary, secondary and echo". I could not find definitions in the manual on them. > > - looking at the XW Pros via insight local, > under configuration -> advanced ->controls -> Backup Mode - I disabled BAckup mode since I'm not backing up the grid. System shut down immediately. Backup mode must be enabled when you're off grid. > > Thanks in advance : ) > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc > Fairbanks, AK > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 11 14:15:28 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 11:15:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions In-Reply-To: <04f0945d-d794-963f-4b46-fc285e704364@remotepowerinc.com> References: <04f0945d-d794-963f-4b46-fc285e704364@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <854664d61b07aef2b561b2e62eb82a63@sti.net> It is pretty well laid out on the website for 3 + years that you need to use Insight. You should also read the installer info. https://solar.se.com/us/en/2021/06/29/essential-advanced-resources-for-installers/ SCP will work for some basic functions but is out of memory for XWP. Use for indication only. I am guessing that you did not program XWP to set the IEE region code as above in the installers manual? This is probably causing some extra issues for you. You do need the password and I can send it if you do not have it? Good Luck. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-11 10:37 am, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends, > > I'm currently onsite with a system. Just replaced 4 XW + 6848's with 4 > XW Pros. Updated the Gateway to rev. 1.17 and the Pros to 2.04. Have > some questions/observations so far. > > System: Off Grid with 4 XW Pros, 18 MPPT 80 600s, 2 SCPs, 1 Gateway, 1 > Battery Monitor, 1 AGS. 3000 ahr of NiFe batteries. 36 kW Kubota > Genset. > > I tried using the Inverter SCP to program settings on the new inverters > and it took everything but when I checked on InsightLocal the settings > had not changed. They were all still default so I had to go through it > again one at a time through insightlocal. I'm guessing the SCP no > longer works for programming with the Gateway? Can anyone confirm? > Programming used to work through the SCP with the old XW+ inverters and > firmware. > > Tried using the Solar SCP to change settings on the charge controls but > had to use insight local to change each individually. Used to be able > to use the "copy from" function which was a real time saver. > Wondering if anyone else has run into the same problem, or if it works > for them, what am I missing? Is there a cool way to change one setting > with insightlocal and get it to change the other 17? > > Observations: > - looking at the CC's via insightlocal, > under configuration -> advanced ->controls - I set all chargers > "enabled" but the next day or so they all go to "disabled". They all > still work though. Doesn't seem to affect operations. > > under configuration -> advanced ->charger settings - I have the first > CC set to "primary" and the rest to secondary. No idea if that's right > or not. seems to work. Options are "stand-alone, primary, secondary > and echo". I could not find definitions in the manual on them. > > - looking at the XW Pros via insight local, > under configuration -> advanced ->controls -> Backup Mode - I disabled > BAckup mode since I'm not backing up the grid. System shut down > immediately. Backup mode must be enabled when you're off grid. > > Thanks in advance : ) > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc > Fairbanks, AK > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 11 15:16:12 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2023 12:16:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions In-Reply-To: <854664d61b07aef2b561b2e62eb82a63@sti.net> References: <04f0945d-d794-963f-4b46-fc285e704364@remotepowerinc.com> <854664d61b07aef2b561b2e62eb82a63@sti.net> Message-ID: <4a41f86fa48355ad8a25ed3f851e7638@sti.net> It is pretty well laid out on the website for 3 + years that you need to use Insight. You should also read the installer info. https://solar.se.com/us/en/2021/06/29/essential-advanced-resources-for-installers/ SCP will work for some basic functions but is out of memory for XWP. Use for indication only. I am guessing that you did not program XWP to set the IEE region code as above in the installers manual? This is probably causing some extra issues for you. You do need the password and I can send it if you do not have it? Good Luck. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-11 10:37 am, greg egan via RE-wrenches wrote: Friends, I'm currently onsite with a system. Just replaced 4 XW + 6848's with 4 XW Pros. Updated the Gateway to rev. 1.17 and the Pros to 2.04. Have some questions/observations so far. System: Off Grid with 4 XW Pros, 18 MPPT 80 600s, 2 SCPs, 1 Gateway, 1 Battery Monitor, 1 AGS. 3000 ahr of NiFe batteries. 36 kW Kubota Genset. I tried using the Inverter SCP to program settings on the new inverters and it took everything but when I checked on InsightLocal the settings had not changed. They were all still default so I had to go through it again one at a time through insightlocal. I'm guessing the SCP no longer works for programming with the Gateway? Can anyone confirm? Programming used to work through the SCP with the old XW+ inverters and firmware. Tried using the Solar SCP to change settings on the charge controls but had to use insight local to change each individually. Used to be able to use the "copy from" function which was a real time saver. Wondering if anyone else has run into the same problem, or if it works for them, what am I missing? Is there a cool way to change one setting with insightlocal and get it to change the other 17? Observations: - looking at the CC's via insightlocal, under configuration -> advanced ->controls - I set all chargers "enabled" but the next day or so they all go to "disabled". They all still work though. Doesn't seem to affect operations. under configuration -> advanced ->charger settings - I have the first CC set to "primary" and the rest to secondary. No idea if that's right or not. seems to work. Options are "stand-alone, primary, secondary and echo". I could not find definitions in the manual on them. - looking at the XW Pros via insight local, under configuration -> advanced ->controls -> Backup Mode - I disabled BAckup mode since I'm not backing up the grid. System shut down immediately. Backup mode must be enabled when you're off grid. Thanks in advance : ) Greg Egan Remote Power Inc Fairbanks, AK _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Jun 13 05:08:00 2023 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (Greg) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 01:08:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions References: <5828b802-acf9-08d5-5a59-655b1c87bfb9@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Jun 13 09:26:37 2023 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:26:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions In-Reply-To: References: <5828b802-acf9-08d5-5a59-655b1c87bfb9@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <1FDCCD28-2C4D-4111-91C4-124A5D105D34@swnl.net> Greg its a pain, i agree, a few things I have done to help me w/ Schnieder’s love of passwords. In my phone, my personal “Insight Cloud" log in info, and the password for the client’s system on location Insight, so that site is accessible to you. I will also take a picture & file the info, MAC address etc. on the back of your client’s insight to my phone under that clients contact info. This way tech support can get access if there is an issue. Under Schnieder call center & their #; I put the password for “Grid Code” access. PW is; XWproGridCodes Off grid setting is 1547-2003 IF you visit the site you should upgrade the firmware on BOTH the “Insight & XWP”. This will be the first question Tech support will ask you for. Make sure that IF you are doing a FW upgrade DO IT Locally AND use bypass & manually start the Generator. IF you don’t, as the XWP is updating the FW it will turn off power to your insight and then it really can be interesting. Once again grid codes have to be reset, IF you will be resetting the inverters to “factory defaults” select RESET ALL. Once things are up & running you are able to view each individual component as well as an overview. Remote access thru the Cloud there is a time limit on accessibility, & there is a time delay on settings except on the “live” mode. Yeah I bring 2 computers so I can look at the manual and use the other for insight access. I still have issues probably I am using a older computer and my skills using a computer are quite limited. I have asked Schnieder for an option to purchase the XWP manual but that apparently fell on deaf ears. There is I believe a time limit for the warrantee registration i think 60 days so be aware of that too. I think there is a demo mode on the Insight that one can play with & tech support is usually quite helpful. Unfortunately Schnieder believes that their systems will be installed where internet and phone service is available. NOT SO > On Jun 13, 2023, at 5:08 AM, Greg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > Greg Egan > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: greg egan >> Date: June 11, 2023 at 8:12:59 PM AKDT >> To: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: Re: Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions >> >>  Dave, thanks for the info. I did read the manual and saw the reference to the IEE Region. Since the PW wasn't important enough for Schneider to put in the installation manual, and the Model is listed XW Pro 6848 NA (north america?) I figured we were in the right Region and moved on. Any idea what the IEE Region code affects? >> >> I'm also looking for answers to connecting to the modbus registers and being able to pull data from all the devices on the network. I will ping Schneider Tech support again. Any info I get I will share with the list. >> >> I have to say that since these XW pros have been installed a week ago they've performed flawlessly. Hoping for many years of good performance for this very patient customer! >> >> All the best, >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> Fairbanks, AK >> >> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sun, 11 Jun 2023 15:31:28 -0700 >> It is pretty well laid out on the website for 3 + years that you need to use Insight. >> You should also read the installer info. >> >> https://solar.se.com/us/en/2021/06/29/essential-advanced-resources-for-installers/ >> >> SCP will work for some basic functions but is out of memory for XWP. Use for indication only. >> I am guessing that you did not program XWP to set the IEE region code as above in the installers manual? This is probably causing some extra issues for you. >> You do need the password and I can send it if you do not have it? >> >> Good Luck. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridso... at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jun 13 11:13:01 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:13:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions In-Reply-To: <1FDCCD28-2C4D-4111-91C4-124A5D105D34@swnl.net> References: <5828b802-acf9-08d5-5a59-655b1c87bfb9@remotepowerinc.com> <1FDCCD28-2C4D-4111-91C4-124A5D105D34@swnl.net> Message-ID: <0df06d974127be5c005c9c12b5018c67@sti.net> Good advice from Tump, please use it! The main issue is we need to feed back to Schneider that XWP should work out of the box for Offgrid. This is how all of the previous models did. The California and Hawaii rules for grid have taken over. When I beta tested XWP for offgrid it was offgrid friendly. The firmware updates changed how XWP behaves for offgrid, in some modes. I have always thought they should build a model that leaves out all of the firmware for the grid and is just purely an Offgrid model. They taught being born offgrid and it is pretty bulletproof once configured. You can see that it mostly is fine offgrid Greg but that could change. Please tell them to consider making the default IEEE and thank them for keeping the SCP alive. Your 4 X XWP system is much easier/faster to install now with the new 200 amp panel Schneider makes for big systems. Firmware being ready very soon for offgrid and it works fine now with the grid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-13 6:26 am, Tump via RE-wrenches wrote: > Greg its a pain, i agree, a few things I have done to help me w/ > Schnieder's love of passwords. > In my phone, my personal "Insight Cloud" log in info, and the password > for the client's system on location Insight, so that site is accessible > to you. I will also take a picture & file the info, MAC address etc. on > the back of your client's insight to my phone under that clients > contact info. This way tech support can get access if there is an > issue. > > Under Schnieder call center & their #; I put the password for "Grid > Code" access. > PW is; XWproGridCodes Off grid setting is 1547-2003 > IF you visit the site you should upgrade the firmware on BOTH the > "Insight & XWP". This will be the first question Tech support will ask > you for. Make sure that IF you are doing a FW upgrade DO IT Locally AND > use bypass & manually start the Generator. IF you don't, as the XWP is > updating the FW it will turn off power to your insight and then it > really can be interesting. > Once again grid codes have to be reset, IF you will be resetting the > inverters to "factory defaults" select RESET ALL. > Once things are up & running you are able to view each individual > component as well as an overview. Remote access thru the Cloud there > is a time limit on accessibility, & there is a time delay on settings > except on the "live" mode. > Yeah I bring 2 computers so I can look at the manual and use the other > for insight access. > I still have issues probably I am using a older computer and my skills > using a computer are quite limited. I have asked Schnieder for an > option to purchase the XWP manual but that apparently fell on deaf > ears. > There is I believe a time limit for the warrantee registration i think > 60 days so be aware of that too. > I think there is a demo mode on the Insight that one can play with & > tech support is usually quite helpful. Unfortunately Schnieder believes > that their systems will be installed where internet and phone service > is available. NOT SO > > On Jun 13, 2023, at 5:08 AM, Greg via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Greg Egan > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: greg egan > Date: June 11, 2023 at 8:12:59 PM AKDT > To: re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: Schneider SCP / MPPT 80 600 / XW+ / Gateway questions > > Dave, thanks for the info. I did read the manual and saw the reference > to the IEE Region. Since the PW wasn't important enough for Schneider > to put in the installation manual, and the Model is listed XW Pro 6848 > NA (north america?) I figured we were in the right Region and moved on. > Any idea what the IEE Region code affects? > > I'm also looking for answers to connecting to the modbus registers and > being able to pull data from all the devices on the network. I will > ping Schneider Tech support again. Any info I get I will share with > the list. > > I have to say that since these XW pros have been installed a week ago > they've performed flawlessly. Hoping for many years of good > performance for this very patient customer! > > All the best, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches [1] Sun, 11 Jun 2023 > 15:31:28 -0700 [2] > > It is pretty well laid out on the website for 3 + years that you need > to use Insight. > > You should also read the installer info. > > https://solar.se.com/us/en/2021/06/29/essential-advanced-resources-for-installers/ > > SCP will work for some basic functions but is out of memory for XWP. > Use for indication only. > > I am guessing that you did not program XWP to set the IEE region code > as above in the installers manual? This is probably causing some extra > issues for you. > > You do need the password and I can send it if you do not have it? > > Good Luck. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridso... at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump [3]3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net [4] > > Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ > _ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California_ > _ 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > _ > _ __Blair "TUMP" May_ > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > _ __ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"_ > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > _ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"_ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org&q=from:%22Dave+Angelini+Offgrid+Solar+via+RE%5C-wrenches%22 [2] https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org&q=date:20230611 [3] blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net [4] blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Jun 14 08:45:26 2023 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 08:45:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, Interested to hear how you all are complying with NYSERDA on bonding in the 3' perimeter outside of the array. Their QA team just points me towards the Illsco SGB-4 lugs, but sometimes there is no graceful way for us to install them. If we can't get easy access under a ridge cap to hide/protect the lugs, then the only other solution seems to be Michael's idea of running lugs/bare copper on the seams outside of the array perimeter (which sometimes includes whole other adjacent roof sections). Aside from being aesthetically unpleasant, I'm also skeptical that ice and snow won't grab onto the copper and tear the lugs off eventually... Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 2:33 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Also being in NYS, I have been familiar with this requirement for a long > time. I believe the idea is that just like how any metal part in a system > needs to be grounded, metal roof panels under solar panels are kind of part > of the system. What if a wire comes loose and touches the roof? You would > not want someone going up there to get zapped. I see the point that the > worst you can do with RSD is 80V. But in NY at least, you cant really argue > with NYSERDA if they decide they want this. I have never come across a > building or electrical inspector here that would care about this, but > NYSERDA does and that is where the incentive money comes from... > > > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 2:34 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> But isn’t the whole concept of RS to prevent the energizing of say a >> metal roof? >> >> The inverter sees a ground fault or ark fault. Trips off line, the RS >> activate and now it’s less than 80v. Isn’t that what it’s supposed to do? >> >> What is the purpose of grounding the metal roof? >> >> Jay >> >> On Jun 6, 2023, at 10:09 AM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> If I am not mistaken, this derives from some UL testing that showed that >> a metal roof may become energized during a thermal event. >> >> I suppose no less important than our RSD requirements... >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Date: *Tue, Jun 6, 2023 10:25 AM >> *To: *offgridsolar at sti.net;RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski; >> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II >> >> I'm watching this thread with interest. Is anyone aware of any serious >> injury or property damage caused by an energized metal roof, and if so, >> what were the circumstances? Is bonding metal roofs a solution looking for >> a problem? >> >> In response to the ground mount alternative, that isn't really an option >> in many areas of Florida where the cost can be 50% higher or more to ground >> mount if it's even practical due to flood level. Tile and shingle roofs in >> Southwest Florida are being switched to metal at shocking rates in the wake >> of Hurricane Ian, and we love it from an installer's standpoint. >> Fortunately, I haven't run into any bonding inspection issues for over 10 >> years here. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 8:28 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Hey Adam, >>> >>> Creative solution #1 Do not install solar on any roof if you can ground >>> mount it. >>> >>> Is this He Adam or the Him Adam? >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* >>> >>> >>> On 2023-06-05 3:47 pm, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hey all, >>> I had started a thread about bonding to metal roofs in 2018 but can't >>> figure out how to respond via the archive. I know some things have changed >>> since then, so I'm circling back and starting a new thread. >>> >>> In NY one of our inspection agencies (NYSERDA) requires bonding of metal >>> roof panels below the array, as well as within a 3' perimeter of the array. >>> S-5! in combination with Ironridge is now listed to bond the roof under the >>> array (so long as you hit every pan with an attachment) but this doesn't >>> solve the problem of trying to bond within the 3' perimeter. For installs >>> where we are only 18" from the ridge, this means we are required to bond >>> the adjacent roof as well. >>> >>> Whenever possible we install Illsco SGB-4 lugs under the ridge cap. But >>> more and more we're finding roofs where the ridge cap feels inaccessible, >>> tricky, or where we simply don't want to get into roof warranty issues >>> associated with opening up a prior contractor's work. >>> >>> Wondering if anyone else is coming up against this and what some >>> possible creative solutions might be. I don't want to walk away from >>> potential projects but... >>> >>> As always, thanks for any thoughts >>> Adam >>> >>> >>> Adam Katzman (he/him) >>> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >>> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >>> (518) 567-1468 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 279-4258 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Jun 14 09:23:26 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 09:23:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adam, There are so few standing seam metal roofs here in central NY as compared to Ag metal roofs. So I have not come across a standing seam roof in a few years. For the Ag metal roofs, we aim to get just one lug up under the ridge cap, and then at the bottom of the roof where the metal hangs over the eave, we put in a small bolt with star washers where the metal panels overlap. This bonds all the panels together, and then we pick up the ground from the one lug at the top. If you can get under the seam at the bottom of the panel (where you can get a star washer on each panel), then maybe you can do something similar with the standing seam panels? Cheers, Dave On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 8:45 AM AE Solar wrote: > Dave, > Interested to hear how you all are complying with NYSERDA on bonding in > the 3' perimeter outside of the array. Their QA team just points me towards > the Illsco SGB-4 lugs, but sometimes there is no graceful way for us to > install them. If we can't get easy access under a ridge cap to hide/protect > the lugs, then the only other solution seems to be Michael's idea of > running lugs/bare copper on the seams outside of the array perimeter (which > sometimes includes whole other adjacent roof sections). Aside from being > aesthetically unpleasant, I'm also skeptical that ice and snow won't grab > onto the copper and tear the lugs off eventually... > Adam > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > > On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 2:33 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Also being in NYS, I have been familiar with this requirement for a long >> time. I believe the idea is that just like how any metal part in a system >> needs to be grounded, metal roof panels under solar panels are kind of part >> of the system. What if a wire comes loose and touches the roof? You would >> not want someone going up there to get zapped. I see the point that the >> worst you can do with RSD is 80V. But in NY at least, you cant really argue >> with NYSERDA if they decide they want this. I have never come across a >> building or electrical inspector here that would care about this, but >> NYSERDA does and that is where the incentive money comes from... >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023 at 2:34 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> But isn’t the whole concept of RS to prevent the energizing of say a >>> metal roof? >>> >>> The inverter sees a ground fault or ark fault. Trips off line, the RS >>> activate and now it’s less than 80v. Isn’t that what it’s supposed to do? >>> >>> What is the purpose of grounding the metal roof? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Jun 6, 2023, at 10:09 AM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> If I am not mistaken, this derives from some UL testing that showed that >>> a metal roof may become energized during a thermal event. >>> >>> I suppose no less important than our RSD requirements... >>> >>> -Glenn >>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >>> *Date: *Tue, Jun 6, 2023 10:25 AM >>> *To: *offgridsolar at sti.net;RE-wrenches; >>> *Cc: *Jason Szumlanski; >>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Bonding Metal Roofs Part II >>> >>> I'm watching this thread with interest. Is anyone aware of any serious >>> injury or property damage caused by an energized metal roof, and if so, >>> what were the circumstances? Is bonding metal roofs a solution looking for >>> a problem? >>> >>> In response to the ground mount alternative, that isn't really an option >>> in many areas of Florida where the cost can be 50% higher or more to ground >>> mount if it's even practical due to flood level. Tile and shingle roofs in >>> Southwest Florida are being switched to metal at shocking rates in the wake >>> of Hurricane Ian, and we love it from an installer's standpoint. >>> Fortunately, I haven't run into any bonding inspection issues for over 10 >>> years here. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 8:28 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Adam, >>>> >>>> Creative solution #1 Do not install solar on any roof if you can >>>> ground mount it. >>>> >>>> Is this He Adam or the Him Adam? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060 <209%20813%200060>* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2023-06-05 3:47 pm, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey all, >>>> I had started a thread about bonding to metal roofs in 2018 but can't >>>> figure out how to respond via the archive. I know some things have changed >>>> since then, so I'm circling back and starting a new thread. >>>> >>>> In NY one of our inspection agencies (NYSERDA) requires bonding of >>>> metal roof panels below the array, as well as within a 3' perimeter of the >>>> array. S-5! in combination with Ironridge is now listed to bond the roof >>>> under the array (so long as you hit every pan with an attachment) but this >>>> doesn't solve the problem of trying to bond within the 3' perimeter. For >>>> installs where we are only 18" from the ridge, this means we are required >>>> to bond the adjacent roof as well. >>>> >>>> Whenever possible we install Illsco SGB-4 lugs under the ridge cap. But >>>> more and more we're finding roofs where the ridge cap feels inaccessible, >>>> tricky, or where we simply don't want to get into roof warranty issues >>>> associated with opening up a prior contractor's work. >>>> >>>> Wondering if anyone else is coming up against this and what some >>>> possible creative solutions might be. I don't want to walk away from >>>> potential projects but... >>>> >>>> As always, thanks for any thoughts >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> >>>> Adam Katzman (he/him) >>>> Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator >>>> www.AutonomousEnergies.com >>>> (518) 567-1468 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 279-4258 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 279-4258 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jun 14 14:02:30 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:02:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron-Edison going out of business...FYI Message-ID: <048901d99eea$639a4210$2acec630$@solarcentex.com> I figured it had enough of a niche product that it might survive. Wanted folks to be aware -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 274134 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Jun 14 14:14:20 2023 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:14:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron-Edison going out of business...FYI In-Reply-To: <048901d99eea$639a4210$2acec630$@solarcentex.com> References: <048901d99eea$639a4210$2acec630$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Like module manufacturing, the energy storage space is brutal and unforgiving. And it will likely only get more treacherous betting on who's likely to be around in 5 let alone longer years. On Wednesday, June 14, 2023, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I figured it had enough of a niche product that it might survive. Wanted > folks to be aware > > > > [image: A picture containing text, cloud, sky, tree Description > automatically generated] > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 274134 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 14 14:15:51 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:15:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron-Edison going out of business...FYI In-Reply-To: <048901d99eea$639a4210$2acec630$@solarcentex.com> References: <048901d99eea$639a4210$2acec630$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <04efc3f68009a731aa9b3cffecbff335@sti.net> Super helpful Scott ! Really appreciate it. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-14 11:02 am, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > I figured it had enough of a niche product that it might survive. > Wanted folks to be aware > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Jun 15 10:38:52 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 08:38:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Energy ME-AGS-S In-Reply-To: <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> References: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <000b01d99f97$1b3904e0$51ab0ea0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Any chance one of you has this auto gen start module they can part with? I do NOT need the one with the network option…those are readily available. Please contact me off list if you have one. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwrench at asis.com Thu Jun 15 11:19:55 2023 From: solarwrench at asis.com (Kelly Larson) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 08:19:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Thermal Expert in Los Angeles Area? Message-ID: Hi all, I have a student who is looking for a solar thermal expert to look at an ailing system in Anaheim, CA.  Who could he call? Thank you in advance, Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 11:22:08 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 08:22:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Energy ME-AGS-S In-Reply-To: <000b01d99f97$1b3904e0$51ab0ea0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> <000b01d99f97$1b3904e0$51ab0ea0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: AEE might still have some of those if I remember Brad. Retired On Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 7:41 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > Any chance one of you has this auto gen start module they can part with? I > do NOT need the one with the network option…those are readily available. Please > contact me off list if you have one. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Thu Jun 15 13:31:19 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Maxfield Solar) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 11:31:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid AFCI Update... Message-ID: Hello all, I'm trying to find information on how to comply with AFCI with DC-coupled off-grid systems in 2023... Obviously, there are a couple of charge controllers that have AFCI built in such as the MidNite charge controllers and I know about Outback's unreliable AFCI in the FM100 ... but I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to do this now with other brands or retrofit systems... There used to be a lot of equipment available that you could use... but Bentek discontinued their AFCI combiner box, Ouback's ICS is discontinued, Sensata's PVAF-T is discontinued, SolarBOS seems to have discontinued their AFCI combiner box... There's an interesting Sandia report where there were testing an AFCI combiner that MidNite made, but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere... The only non-integrated AFCI option I seem to have found that might not be discontinued is ZJ Beny brand... Their website seems okay... very Chinese... and I can't find it for sale anywhere except maybe Alibaba. And now that Multi MPPT charge controllers are becoming more common (like Victron's 450V 200A charge controller with 4 MPPT inputs), it would be nice to have some kind of AFCI that was totally stand alone, so you could have one on each MPPT... one or two strings into each AFCI. Is anyone addressing this? Someone at a conference this year told me that MidNite solar was working on producing something that would work, but I don't know if that's a true rumor or false... I can't seem to find anything online. Does anyone know of anything I've missed? Last question... is it possible to use schneider's MPPT disconnect RS with other brand charge controllers? It has AFCI. I've read the manual and it's not clear if it can function without the Xanbus connection. Of course, I don't think Schneider wants you to use it with other products... but I'm thinking the AFCI might functionally work... I figured one of you guys might know... I've spent the last number of years with my head in the sand as far as compliant equipment availability because I've been working in locations that aren't inspected, and I mount my arrays on tall poles, so there's no risk of starting a fire. Now that I'm in Off-Grid Focused wholesale distribution and installer consulting, I need to figure out what options are available to satisfy the AHJs... Thanks so much! Kienan Maxfield Technical sales, Technical Support Green-Go Solar Distribution kienan at dist.solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) www.distribution.solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agjahp at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 13:56:10 2023 From: agjahp at gmail.com (Alex Jahp) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 11:56:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid AFCI Update... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kienan, Great question. I have explored it a bit myself, but didn't find any great solutions. As far as the Schneider RS goes, I concluded that it was not a viable solution based upon the highlighted portion of the specifications sheet below, but have never tested it or researched any further. [image: xanbusafci.png] Take care! On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:33 AM Maxfield Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm trying to find information on how to comply with AFCI with DC-coupled > off-grid systems in 2023... Obviously, there are a couple of charge > controllers that have AFCI built in such as the MidNite charge controllers > and I know about Outback's unreliable AFCI in the FM100 ... but I'm trying > to figure out if there is a way to do this now with other brands or > retrofit systems... > > There used to be a lot of equipment available that you could use... but > Bentek discontinued their AFCI combiner box, Ouback's ICS is discontinued, > Sensata's PVAF-T is discontinued, SolarBOS seems to have discontinued their > AFCI combiner box... There's an interesting Sandia report > where > there were testing an AFCI combiner that MidNite made, but it doesn't seem > to be available anywhere... The only non-integrated AFCI option I seem to > have found that might not be discontinued is ZJ Beny brand... Their website > seems okay... very Chinese... and I can't find it for sale anywhere except > maybe Alibaba. > > And now that Multi MPPT charge controllers are becoming more common (like > Victron's 450V 200A charge controller with 4 MPPT inputs), it would be nice > to have some kind of AFCI that was totally stand alone, so you could have > one on each MPPT... one or two strings into each AFCI. > > Is anyone addressing this? Someone at a conference this year told me that > MidNite solar was working on producing something that would work, but I > don't know if that's a true rumor or false... I can't seem to find anything > online. Does anyone know of anything I've missed? > > Last question... is it possible to use schneider's MPPT disconnect RS with > other brand charge controllers? It has AFCI. I've read the manual and it's > not clear if it can function without the Xanbus connection. Of course, I > don't think Schneider wants you to use it with other products... but I'm > thinking the AFCI might functionally work... I figured one of you guys > might know... > > > I've spent the last number of years with my head in the sand as far as > compliant equipment availability because I've been working in locations > that aren't inspected, and I mount my arrays on tall poles, so there's no > risk of starting a fire. Now that I'm in Off-Grid Focused wholesale > distribution and installer consulting, I need to figure out what options > are available to satisfy the AHJs... > > Thanks so much! > > Kienan Maxfield > Technical sales, Technical Support > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution* > *kienan at dist.solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* > *www.distribution.solar* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: xanbusafci.png Type: image/png Size: 119568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 15 15:23:29 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 12:23:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid AFCI Update... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8e714433fc6dbd27c30b99f2587e4344@sti.net> * You do need Xanbus and all of the following One of the reasons I always post here to not use a roof for offgrid is rapid disco. There are a few others also. It is the last thing you want offgrid and if for some reason you can't find a reasonable way to please an inspector, install a system that can easily be retrofitted after the inspection. The Schneider RS is actually valuable as it has a decent dual 600vdc disco that can be used after the retrofit. Good Luck! * 'MPPT Disconnect RS - 865-1036 * RS Initiator Switch - 865-1039 * Required to pair with Tigo(R) TS4-A-F [4] or TS4-A-2F [5] for PV rapid shutdown compliance (purchase separately) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-15 10:31 am, Maxfield Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm trying to find information on how to comply with AFCI with > DC-coupled off-grid systems in 2023... Obviously, there are a couple of > charge controllers that have AFCI built in such as the MidNite charge > controllers and I know about Outback's unreliable AFCI in the FM100 ... > but I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to do this now with > other brands or retrofit systems... > > There used to be a lot of equipment available that you could use... but > Bentek discontinued their AFCI combiner box, Ouback's ICS is > discontinued, Sensata's PVAF-T is discontinued, SolarBOS seems to have > discontinued their AFCI combiner box... There's an interesting Sandia > report [1] where there were testing an AFCI combiner that MidNite made, > but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere... The only non-integrated > AFCI option I seem to have found that might not be discontinued is ZJ > Beny brand... Their website seems okay... very Chinese... and I can't > find it for sale anywhere except maybe Alibaba. > > And now that Multi MPPT charge controllers are becoming more common > (like Victron's 450V 200A charge controller with 4 MPPT inputs), it > would be nice to have some kind of AFCI that was totally stand alone, > so you could have one on each MPPT... one or two strings into each > AFCI. > > Is anyone addressing this? Someone at a conference this year told me > that MidNite solar was working on producing something that would work, > but I don't know if that's a true rumor or false... I can't seem to > find anything online. Does anyone know of anything I've missed? > > Last question... is it possible to use schneider's MPPT disconnect RS > with other brand charge controllers? It has AFCI. I've read the manual > and it's not clear if it can function without the Xanbus connection. Of > course, I don't think Schneider wants you to use it with other > products... but I'm thinking the AFCI might functionally work... I > figured one of you guys might know... > > I've spent the last number of years with my head in the sand as far as > compliant equipment availability because I've been working in locations > that aren't inspected, and I mount my arrays on tall poles, so there's > no risk of starting a fire. Now that I'm in Off-Grid Focused wholesale > distribution and installer consulting, I need to figure out what > options are available to satisfy the AHJs... > > Thanks so much! > > Kienan Maxfield > Technical sales, Technical Support > > Green-Go Solar Distribution > kienan at dist.solar [2] > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584 (Cell) > www.distribution.solar [3] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://energy.sandia.gov/wp-content/gallery/uploads/SAND2013-5916-SeriesAndParallelArc-FaultCircuitInterrupterTests1.pdf [2] https://kienan at dist.solar [3] https://www.distribution.solar [4] https://www.tigoenergy.com/product/ts4-a-f [5] https://www.tigoenergy.com/product/ts4-a-2f -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Thu Jun 15 19:28:01 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 16:28:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid AFCI Update... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9844fb97-0034-00aa-e077-4105f6d9f5c8@midnitesolar.com> Hi Kienan /"There's an interesting //Sandia report // where there were testing an AFCI combiner that MidNite made, // //but it doesn't seem to be available anywhere... "/ What you saw that we were testing down at Sandia years ago was a Disconnecting Combiner with PV input monitoring and PV arc fault on every channel.   It cost too much was the problem.  It worked well though. /"Is anyone addressing this? Someone at a conference this year told me that MidNite solar was working on producing something that would work, but I don't know if that's a true rumor or false... I can't seem to find anything online. Does anyone know of anything I've missed?"/ MidNite has been working on a stand alone AFCI that drives remote-trip HV breakers and works up to 600 V input. Look for this generic arc fault solution in about 4 months.  I think it also has ground fault too ?  They are used in our newer HV MPPTs. One of the issues for some of the others was that they used the Sensata arc fault sensor components and for some reason they stopped making those. 🌜boB🌛 On 6/15/2023 10:31 AM, Maxfield Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm trying to find information on how to comply with AFCI with > DC-coupled off-grid systems in 2023... Obviously, there are a couple > of charge controllers that have AFCI built in such as the MidNite > charge controllers and I know about Outback's unreliable AFCI in the > FM100 ... but I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to do this > now with other brands or retrofit systems... > > There used to be a lot of equipment available that you could use... > but Bentek discontinued their AFCI combiner box, Ouback's ICS is > discontinued, Sensata's PVAF-T is discontinued, SolarBOS seems to have > discontinued their AFCI combiner box... There's an interesting Sandia > report >  where > there were testing an AFCI combiner that MidNite made, but it doesn't > seem to be available anywhere... The only non-integrated AFCI option I > seem to have found that might not be discontinued is ZJ Beny brand... > Their website seems okay... very Chinese... and I can't find it for > sale anywhere except maybe Alibaba. > > And now that Multi MPPT charge controllers are becoming more common > (like Victron's 450V 200A charge controller with 4 MPPT inputs), it > would be nice to have some kind of AFCI that was totally stand alone, > so you could have one on each MPPT... one or two strings into each AFCI. > > Is anyone addressing this? Someone at a conference this year told me > that MidNite solar was working on producing something that would work, > but I don't know if that's a true rumor or false... I can't seem to > find anything online. Does anyone know of anything I've missed? > > Last question... is it possible to use schneider's MPPT disconnect RS > with other brand charge controllers? It has AFCI. I've read the manual > and it's not clear if it can function without the Xanbus connection. > Of course, I don't think Schneider wants you to use it with other > products... but I'm thinking the AFCI might functionally work... I > figured one of you guys might know... > > > I've spent the last number of years with my head in the sand as far as > compliant equipment availability because I've been working in > locations that aren't inspected, and I mount my arrays on tall poles, > so there's no risk of starting a fire. Now that I'm in Off-Grid > Focused wholesale distribution and installer consulting, I need to > figure out what options are available to satisfy the AHJs... > > Thanks so much! > > Kienan Maxfield > Technical sales, Technical Support > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution* > *kienan at dist.solar* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com* > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* > *www.distribution.solar* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 15 20:16:54 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 18:16:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius primo fan Message-ID: <7E1287FB-61D9-4FFE-A055-830BED753BA9@gmail.com> Does anyone know where to get a replacement fan for a fronius promo 10kw? Thx Jay From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Jun 15 20:30:29 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2023 17:30:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius primo fan In-Reply-To: <7E1287FB-61D9-4FFE-A055-830BED753BA9@gmail.com> References: <7E1287FB-61D9-4FFE-A055-830BED753BA9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, in my experience most fans are readily available, you just have to pull the old fan and get a part number from its nameplate. Or you can probably order one from Fronius tech support. Worst case I experienced was on an old SHARP inverter (3 MPPT's), it was supposed to be 3-wire fan, but all i could find was 2-wire. So instead of coming on when temperature sensor triggered it, the fan was just on all the time. not great but better than overheating On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 5:16 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone know where to get a replacement fan for a fronius promo 10kw? > > Thx > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jun 19 13:50:29 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 10:50:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12 Message-ID: <092b8e069e6312f6f8a602a05721e594@mail.gmail.com> Friends: We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost 20 years ago. The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to SB4000US-21 inverters. We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the problem. These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT. The home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel jumpers are THWN. Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter. We isolated the fault to one string. We opened every pull box and panel J-box and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected. We inspected every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion. I have a megger I have never used. The homerun is kind of long so maybe it has insulation problems. I could isolate the homerun and megger those leads. I am researching if I can megger PV modules. It looks like this is commonly done. That looks like my next step. Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Jun 19 14:33:34 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 11:33:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12 In-Reply-To: <092b8e069e6312f6f8a602a05721e594@mail.gmail.com> References: <092b8e069e6312f6f8a602a05721e594@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William - Is this a TL-21 inverter line from maybe 8 or 10 years ago? If I recall correctly, that was around the time period that SMA was first shipping with AFCI detection - we had a few SMA inverters from that vintage producing false AFCI errors. I think that long home runs can be part of the issue and the inverter circuitry was a little too sensitive. You might try calling SMA to see if there is a firmware update or a way to disable AFCI if you feel comfortable with disabling that safety feature. Separately, we've had a few phantom type AFCI errors on older modules and after tons of troubleshooting we think that it might have been internal to the modules themselves. Good luck! Best, August On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 11:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost > 20 years ago. The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to > SB4000US-21 inverters. We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of > years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the > problem. > > > > These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT. The > home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel > jumpers are THWN. > > > > Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter. We > isolated the fault to one string. We opened every pull box and panel J-box > and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected. We inspected > every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion. > > > > I have a megger I have never used. The homerun is kind of long so maybe > it has insulation problems. I could isolate the homerun and megger those > leads. I am researching if I can megger PV modules. It looks like this is > commonly done. That looks like my next step. > > > > Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could > start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in > the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Mon Jun 19 16:01:11 2023 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 13:01:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum issues? Message-ID: I’m in Canada, on the west coast, and while the supply chain issues over the last 2 years with Magnum inverters were severe they seem to have eased over the last few months. However I have just had a local service depot tell me that repair boards are unavailable and to get back to them in 4 - 6 months!! Just asking my U.S. colleagues, have you had the same experience in the last few months or is this just a local issue? Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Mon Jun 19 16:28:20 2023 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don energysolarnow.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 20:28:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12 Message-ID: You should also check the AC wiring. AFCI is detected as radio frequency noise from some kind of arc fault. It can be either AC or DC arcing. I had some AFCI tripping issues that turned out to be loose wiring at the AC connector inside the SunnyBoy. It was easily fixed by tightening the screws. Since this connector is much closer than the DC wiring it would take less faulting to set off the alarm. Don Barch Energy Solar >Friends: > > We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost > 20 years ago. The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to > SB4000US-21 inverters. We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of > years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the > problem. > > These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2? NMLT. The > home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel > jumpers are THWN. > > Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter. We > isolated the fault to one string. We opened every pull box and panel J-box > and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected. We inspected > every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion. > > I have a megger I have never used. The homerun is kind of long so maybe > it has insulation problems. I could isolate the homerun and megger those > leads. I am researching if I can megger PV modules. It looks like this is > commonly done. That looks like my next step. > > Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could > start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in > the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work. > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Jun 19 17:28:26 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:28:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12 In-Reply-To: <092b8e069e6312f6f8a602a05721e594@mail.gmail.com> References: <092b8e069e6312f6f8a602a05721e594@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Modules can be meggered individually in or in series strings (with a caveat). I've done it many times and discovered internal module shorts between positive and gnd,or neg and gnd. I once took the customer's garden house up on the roof, and meggered a string, while trickling water on panels individually. When a short occurred, I knew that the respective soaked panel was internally compromised (old Sanyo 190's BTW). . The caveat with meggering a string is that you have to be sure the series string voltage plus the megger voltage (i.e. V scale you are measuring with on the meter) does not exceed the max. voltage rating of the panels. Obviously most new modules have at least a 1000vdc rating these days, who knows what Shell SQ's rating is/was. For modern mods rated @ 1000v, I use the meggers 500vdc scale. And with Solaredge, you can megger straight through their optimizers if necessary. There's an app note on their site with directions. On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 2:11 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost > 20 years ago. The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to > SB4000US-21 inverters. We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of > years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the > problem. > > > > These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT. The > home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel > jumpers are THWN. > > > > Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter. We > isolated the fault to one string. We opened every pull box and panel J-box > and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected. We inspected > every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion. > > > > I have a megger I have never used. The homerun is kind of long so maybe > it has insulation problems. I could isolate the homerun and megger those > leads. I am researching if I can megger PV modules. It looks like this is > commonly done. That looks like my next step. > > > > Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could > start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in > the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Jun 19 20:47:26 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 20:47:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12 In-Reply-To: References: <092b8e069e6312f6f8a602a05721e594@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, If you swap strings, does the fault stay with the string, or with the input? and if you do run without the string for a while can you determine that the arc faults stop? Just figure it is worth making 100% sure the fault is actually in the DC side of that one string you have isolated, and not something internal to the inverter or on the AC side. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 5:30 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi William, > Modules can be meggered individually in or in series strings (with a > caveat). I've done it many times and discovered internal module shorts > between positive and gnd,or neg and gnd. > > I once took the customer's garden house up on the roof, and meggered a > string, while trickling water on panels individually. When a short > occurred, I knew that the respective soaked panel was internally > compromised (old Sanyo 190's BTW). . > > The caveat with meggering a string is that you have to be sure the series > string voltage plus the megger voltage (i.e. V scale you are measuring with > on the meter) does not exceed the max. voltage rating of the panels. > Obviously most new modules have at least a 1000vdc rating these days, who > knows what Shell SQ's rating is/was. For modern mods rated @ 1000v, I use > the meggers 500vdc scale. > > And with Solaredge, you can megger straight through their optimizers if > necessary. There's an app note on their site with directions. > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 2:11 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost >> 20 years ago. The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to >> SB4000US-21 inverters. We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of >> years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the >> problem. >> >> >> >> These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT. The >> home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel >> jumpers are THWN. >> >> >> >> Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter. We >> isolated the fault to one string. We opened every pull box and panel J-box >> and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected. We inspected >> every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion. >> >> >> >> I have a megger I have never used. The homerun is kind of long so maybe >> it has insulation problems. I could isolate the homerun and megger those >> leads. I am researching if I can megger PV modules. It looks like this is >> commonly done. That looks like my next step. >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could >> start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in >> the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From findsolar at herzfeld.org Tue Jun 20 11:42:00 2023 From: findsolar at herzfeld.org (Martin Herzfeld) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:42:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AFCI tripping on SB 4000US-12 In-Reply-To: References: <092b8e069e6312f6f8a602a05721e594@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Comment below - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer™ Emeritus California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C-46, C-10, C-7, C-61 - D-56, D-31 Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Systems Installer #17, OSHA 30 Certificate OSHA-Authorized Construction Safety Trainer #32-0106614 CompTIA® Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+™ Certified) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG Solar & Electrical Construction Consultant - 2nd Party Evaluations International Code Council® (ICC) Certified Residential Electrical Inspector - E1 #8343181 International Association of Electrical Inspectors (IAEI) Member - #7035507 Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program (EVITP™) Certification #4039206 Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections Certificate - Stanford | Center for Professional Development - Energy Innovation and Emerging Technologies (EIET) On Mon, Jun 19, 2023, 11:33 AM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi William - Is this a TL-21 inverter > > line from maybe 8 or 10 years ago? If I recall correctly, that was around > the time period that SMA was first shipping with AFCI detection - we had a > few SMA inverters from that vintage producing false AFCI errors. I think > that long home runs can be part of the issue and the inverter circuitry was > a little too sensitive. You might try calling SMA to see if there is a > firmware update or a way to disable AFCI if you feel comfortable > with disabling that safety feature. > Simply, would this be 690.11 and not be a situation of comfort, but "not in or on buildings," "metal(lic) raceways" or other requirements to comply with the exception? Separately, we've had a few phantom type AFCI errors on older modules and > after tons of troubleshooting we think that it might have been internal to > the modules themselves. > > Good luck! > > Best, August > > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 11:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> We installed a bunch of Shell SQ-150-PC modules on a ground mount almost >> 20 years ago. The original SB2500 inverters died so we upgraded to >> SB4000US-21 inverters. We had some ground fault or AFCI issues a number of >> years ago so we replaced all homeruns with PV wire which resolved the >> problem. >> >> >> >> These panels have J-boxes which we interconnected with 1/2” NMLT. The >> home runs are with PV wire with absolutely no splices and the inter-panel >> jumpers are THWN. >> >> >> >> Recently we started getting AFCI disturbances on one inverter. We >> isolated the fault to one string. We opened every pull box and panel J-box >> and all of the wiring looks dry, clean and tightly connected. We inspected >> every panel front and back and see no hotspots or visible corrosion. >> >> >> >> I have a megger I have never used. The homerun is kind of long so maybe >> it has insulation problems. I could isolate the homerun and megger those >> leads. I am researching if I can megger PV modules. It looks like this is >> commonly done. That looks like my next step. >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do next? I suppose I could >> start swapping each of the 10 modules in the problem string with panels in >> the non-problem strings, but that seems like a lot of work. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jun 21 11:49:16 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:49:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal paste for battery connections Message-ID: <0a6401d9a457$ef627f20$ce277d60$@solarcentex.com> After returning from the NABCEP CEU forum, I am finally getting around to following up on application of thermal paste to battery connections to mitigate corrosion and improve the connection. What are the preferred products and is there a generic name that will facilitate my search and purchase? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jun 21 12:17:31 2023 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 12:17:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal paste for battery connections In-Reply-To: <0a6401d9a457$ef627f20$ce277d60$@solarcentex.com> References: <0a6401d9a457$ef627f20$ce277d60$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Sanchem NO-OX-ID "A SPECIAL” is what Ive been using for years. It is conductive and works great. Sanchem.com it is available from Wesco, Graybar, Amazon I usually get the tubes and fill tins for the toolbox, warm the tube prior to filling the tins. > On Jun 21, 2023, at 11:49 AM, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote: > > After returning from the NABCEP CEU forum, I am finally getting around to following up on application of thermal paste to battery connections to mitigate corrosion and improve the connection. > > What are the preferred products and is there a generic name that will facilitate my search and purchase? > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 64812 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jun 21 12:33:35 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 09:33:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal paste for battery connections In-Reply-To: <0a6401d9a457$ef627f20$ce277d60$@solarcentex.com> References: <0a6401d9a457$ef627f20$ce277d60$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Scott, Three things cause corrosion on battery terminals. Usually, it's a combination of issues. Loose or poor connections: Connections should be loosened and retorqued every 9-12 months on stationary installs, while mobile installs every 4-6 months. Don't just tug on the cable as if it's already been loose it could have a weld that is building heat. Poor Ventilation: Every battery bank should have some sort of ventilation to prevent hydrogen-sulfide gas buildup. YES, agms gas, not as much as wet cells, but they still can gas. Your average L16 AGM will gas at about 4-6 liters of hydrogen sulfide gas every hour while voltage is at Bulk/Absorb Voltage. In the same condition, FLA's gas at about 25-40 liters per hour per battery. Ambient temperatures also accelerate this gassing, so an explosion-proof fan is necessary in warmer locations. Under normal conditions, Lithium batteries do not emit gas, but if they go thermal, they will, and having a fan extracting air is a good idea in an emergency. It always cracks me up when I see batteries installed under inverters/chargers. These are just time bombs waiting to go off. There are relays in those inverters/chargers that can ignite that gas. Not to mention Hydrogen-Sulfide gas is very corrosive, so any non-conformally coated parts inside that power electronics can become corrosive and eventually accelerate failure. Overfilling: We see this all the time. Simply put, people put too much distilled water in the cells, and while under charge, this pushes out the electrolyte and accelerates corrosion. Not only does this cause corrosion, but it also degrades the battery as you have lost Sulfate, which is the key component that makes the battery work. You can use Petroleum Jelly or dielectric grease on most installations on the terminals. Petroleum Jelly has a low melting point, so this will need to be replaced, usually every 4-6 months, depending on the ambient temperature. Die-electric grease is good as well, but it does not melt away. Using a thermal compound or paste is okay, but good-quality pastes can be expensive. I generally only use this in locations with high ambient temperatures, usually in the Southwest US, Africa, Middle East.... If you use any of this stuff, you must ensure the connections are made first (Unless It's Conductive). Do not apply it before connections. When you apply it, put a little on a gloved hand, and then apply it to the terminals, a little goes a long way! It drives me nuts to get to a site only to find that someone purchased that red corrosion inhibitor and spray-painted the tops of the batteries with it! In those cases, I generally add a few hours to the bill to clean that crap off my tools! I hope this helps... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 8:50 AM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > After returning from the NABCEP CEU forum, I am finally getting around to > following up on application of thermal paste to battery connections to > mitigate corrosion and improve the connection. > > > > What are the preferred products and is there a generic name that will > facilitate my search and purchase? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Jun 21 12:54:24 2023 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 09:54:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum issues? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <188dee0f301.11806aec0143165.3776477515841697351@greenwired.com> Hey Ron,             That used to be the case for me here in California but as of recently I have been able to get MS4448PAE inverters from Zonna Energy over in PA. I don't know if they have boards these days but I would give them a try.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 13:01:11 -0700 Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote --- I’m in Canada, on the west coast, and while the supply chain issues over the last 2 years with Magnum inverters were severe they seem to have eased over the last few months. However I have just had a local service depot tell me that repair boards are unavailable and to get back to them in 4 - 6 months!! Just asking my U.S. colleagues, have you had the same experience in the last few months or is this just a local issue? Ron Young earthRight Products - http://Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ericstev at vermontel.net Wed Jun 21 13:28:32 2023 From: ericstev at vermontel.net (Eric Stevens) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 13:28:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Thermal paste for battery connections Message-ID: <92ae1b562abfc8b5bf99dfd4bf999399@vermontel.net> Wrenches, I second Tump's endorsement of No-Ox-Id "A Special" grease. It is not made for thermal conduction, but will fill the spaces in an electrical joint where gasses, vapors, or liquids might penetrate and cause corrosion over time. It is applied with a brush and only a very thin coating is sufficient. I use it on all connections that I don't solder. Eric Stevens Vermont Made Energy Grafton VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Wed Jun 21 15:13:31 2023 From: rich at solartechvt.com (rich at solartechvt.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 15:13:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum issues? In-Reply-To: <188dee0f301.11806aec0143165.3776477515841697351@greenwired.com> References: <188dee0f301.11806aec0143165.3776477515841697351@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <05fb01d9a474$7839b630$68ad2290$@solartechvt.com> Magnum inverters are indeed trickling back into suppliers but most boards seem to remain unavailable to repair shops. Sensata is apparently selling new equipment 1st rather than taking care of customers with damaged inverters or warranty repairs that have been waiting a couple of years for parts. Frustrating. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2023 12:54 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Andrew Perkins Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum issues? Hey Ron, That used to be the case for me here in California but as of recently I have been able to get MS4448PAE inverters from Zonna Energy over in PA. I don't know if they have boards these days but I would give them a try. Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com Leave us a review! ---- On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 13:01:11 -0700 Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote --- I’m in Canada, on the west coast, and while the supply chain issues over the last 2 years with Magnum inverters were severe they seem to have eased over the last few months. However I have just had a local service depot tell me that repair boards are unavailable and to get back to them in 4 - 6 months!! Just asking my U.S. colleagues, have you had the same experience in the last few months or is this just a local issue? Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 10702 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5972 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 16:57:08 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 14:57:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate Message-ID: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> Hi All I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch? A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. Wondering what you all think and know Thx Jay From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Jun 26 17:25:45 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 14:25:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9E307EE4-B7D7-44B6-A427-ED24ED77FFB3@starlightsolar.com> Hi Jay, For our LFMP and LFP batteries, it has never mattered. As long as current is flowing, the SoC is increasing and the voltage will rise until it reaches the CV set point. Typically cell balance occurs when a cell voltage reaches a set point where a load turns on across that cell. Typically about 3.55 V. When we see out of balance battery packs, we typically find that the bank has been habitually deficit charged. Someone has spread an idea that you should not fully charge your Li battery. (Thanks YouTube gurus) This leads to unbalanced cells over time. Each cell has a slightly different charge efficiency and the SoC will slowly drift. This affects all cells. Unbalanced cells lead to an apparent loss of capacity. We have LFMP banks sitting as back up power for 10 years now with a constant 3.6Vpc. No problems with just very low current maintaining the bank. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:57 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi All I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch? A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. Wondering what you all think and know Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 26 21:51:03 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 20:51:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Larry says is correct. My experience, with cells and there BMS is they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge. My oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All > > I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? > > Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs > pouch? > > A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of > balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did > mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. > > Wondering what you all think and know > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 01:05:31 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 06:05:31 +0100 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote load shedding Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Is anyone aware of a remote load shedding solution that doesn't require additional signal wiring to the loads? Generac has a great solution for this that they adapted from their generator business called a Generac Smart management module. Its a 2P x 50A relay that monitors line frequency going to the load and it will trip it off line when the frequency sags. The inverter does a small wiggle that will trip it offline based on some Dip switch settings. on the unit. This really simplifies code compliance in some cases. I'm wondering if there are any other more general solutions out there for this. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Jun 27 01:22:29 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 01:22:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote load shedding Message-ID: <6nuih8cqvg4enltje6vdsnl5.1687842820132@email.lge.com> There are a couple of smart panel options available like Lumin and SPAN but may be more involved than what you are looking for -GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Jun 27, 2023 1:06 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Mac Lewis;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Remote load sheddingHello Wrenches,Is anyone aware of a remote load shedding solution that doesn't require additional signal wiring to the loads?Generac has a great solution for this that they adapted from their generator business called a Generac Smart management module.  Its a 2P x 50A relay that monitors line frequency going to the load and it will trip it off line when the frequency sags.  The inverter does a small wiggle that will trip it offline based on some Dip switch settings. on the unit.  This really simplifies code compliance in some cases.I'm wondering if there are any other more general solutions out there for this.Thanks in advance!-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 27 06:12:54 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 06:12:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote load shedding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm interested in this also. This is becoming increasingly necessary as we install "whole home" backup systems, but we need to dump a load that is on a downstream subpanel. A common need is to shed pool equipment like electric heat pumps and pool pumps when utility power is lost. In other cases, the backup system interconnection point is outside at a meter/main combination service entrance device, but the loads we need to shed are on a downstream distribution load center. Sometimes wiring control cables to do this is cumbersome or virtually impossible. A while back I ended up purchasing a 24Vac remote 900 Mhz relay to shed air conditioning, but ultimately I never installed it because it was too complicated and introduced an unacceptable point of failure (potential service issue). We need some reliable, simple load shedding products that are brand agnostic. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 1:06 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is anyone aware of a remote load shedding solution that doesn't require > additional signal wiring to the loads? > > Generac has a great solution for this that they adapted from their > generator business called a Generac Smart management module. Its a 2P x > 50A relay that monitors line frequency going to the load and it will trip > it off line when the frequency sags. The inverter does a small wiggle that > will trip it offline based on some Dip switch settings. on the unit. This > really simplifies code compliance in some cases. > > I'm wondering if there are any other more general solutions out there for > this. > > Thanks in advance! > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Jun 27 09:33:09 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 06:33:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> Message-ID: For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, most want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate. While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long as you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to full regularly. Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, they should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate damage to the cells. Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings. Too many people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they have parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, or the batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers. In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get that time if you have longer absorb timers. We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following. Assuming that you are charging at least the C2 Rate. 1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers. 2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins. 3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins. 4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jay, Larry says is correct. My experience, with cells and there BMS is > they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging > the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge. My > oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All >> >> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? >> >> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs >> pouch? >> >> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of >> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did >> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. >> >> Wondering what you all think and know >> >> Thx >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jun 27 09:38:40 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 06:38:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote load shedding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ea3e277e731574785fce60cbbccc80a@sti.net> Hi Mac, Below is what I use from Schneider for 200A grid-tie. They finally made it easy, not inexpensive though. Offgrid version firmware out in the fall. https://solar.se.com/us/en/product/backup-control-switch/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-26 10:05 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is anyone aware of a remote load shedding solution that doesn't require > additional signal wiring to the loads? > > Generac has a great solution for this that they adapted from their > generator business called a Generac Smart management module. Its a 2P > x 50A relay that monitors line frequency going to the load and it will > trip it off line when the frequency sags. The inverter does a small > wiggle that will trip it offline based on some Dip switch settings. on > the unit. This really simplifies code compliance in some cases. > > I'm wondering if there are any other more general solutions out there > for this. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Jun 27 10:37:07 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 07:37:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote load shedding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: GENERAC also makes a 100 amp version of the SMM On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 3:12 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm interested in this also. This is becoming increasingly necessary as we > install "whole home" backup systems, but we need to dump a load that is on > a downstream subpanel. A common need is to shed pool equipment like > electric heat pumps and pool pumps when utility power is lost. In other > cases, the backup system interconnection point is outside at a meter/main > combination service entrance device, but the loads we need to shed are on a > downstream distribution load center. > > Sometimes wiring control cables to do this is cumbersome or virtually > impossible. > > A while back I ended up purchasing a 24Vac remote 900 Mhz relay to shed > air conditioning, but ultimately I never installed it because it was too > complicated and introduced an unacceptable point of failure (potential > service issue). We need some reliable, simple load shedding products that > are brand agnostic. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 1:06 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Is anyone aware of a remote load shedding solution that doesn't require >> additional signal wiring to the loads? >> >> Generac has a great solution for this that they adapted from their >> generator business called a Generac Smart management module. Its a 2P x >> 50A relay that monitors line frequency going to the load and it will trip >> it off line when the frequency sags. The inverter does a small wiggle that >> will trip it offline based on some Dip switch settings. on the unit. This >> really simplifies code compliance in some cases. >> >> I'm wondering if there are any other more general solutions out there for >> this. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Jun 27 12:07:00 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 09:07:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Steve, My experience is different. First, I don’t know of any stationary battery systems that have C2 charge ability, many not even C1. A 20kWh bank C2 rate would be 40kW or over 770Amps @ 52V. I have 10 years experience with Li batteries, (hundreds of Li installations, mobile and off grid), and thousands of LiFeBlue Battery customers, low current charging works without issues. Most of these systems charge at the high end 0.35 C rate or less. Jay did not mention the bank size so we don’t know the C rate for the 30-50 Amp recommendation. But I guess it is far lower than 1C. Long absorb (CV) times may cause a cell to saturate resulting in rapid voltage rise and the BMS protection inhibiting input current. This sudden loss of load (essentially a battery disconnect) can cause havoc with some inverter/chargers and PV solar controllers. In our experience, the best method to set Absorb times for any Li system is by trial. If the cell voltages are staying relatively close during discharge (6mv in the attached image), then balancing time (> 3.55V CV) is sufficient, whether it is 0.1 hours or much more. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (GM, LiFeBlue Battery) On Jun 27, 2023, at 6:33 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, most want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate. While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long as you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to full regularly. Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, they should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate damage to the cells. Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings. Too many people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they have parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, or the batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers. In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get that time if you have longer absorb timers. We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following. Assuming that you are charging at least the C2 Rate. 1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers. 2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins. 3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins. 4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Jay, Larry says is correct. My experience, with cells and there BMS is they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge. My oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch? A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. Wondering what you all think and know Thx Jay _______________________________________________ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 32ED5403-8A66-4ED5-AFFD-E308D5FC48C6_1_105_c.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 123914 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 17:01:41 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 15:01:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26985DEB-B224-411C-B3E3-5FC80909A46C@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jun 27 17:14:26 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 14:14:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: <26985DEB-B224-411C-B3E3-5FC80909A46C@gmail.com> References: <26985DEB-B224-411C-B3E3-5FC80909A46C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5a1f7420deb8156b978ea7f802208fbd@sti.net> Jay, I do not know/use this brand. Got this off the internet. Looks to me like they are telling you max charge is 100A but max life is 30 - 50a charge. only a 5 year warranty so.... Good Luck ! Voltage 51.2V Capacity 100Ah Charging Voltage (Bulk/Absorb) 56.2V (+/- 0.2V) Float 54V (+/- 0.2V) Low DC Cutoff 47-44V (depending on load - start high, lower if needed) Charging Current Max Constant Charge: 100A (30-50A recommended) Discharging Current Max Constant Discharge: 100A Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-27 2:01 pm, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > These are 100 amp hr eg4 48v batteries. > Tech support said their recommended charge rate per battery is 30-50 > amps. > > I asked because Ive never heard this and it still doesn't sound > correct. > > All of the responses have been consistent and I will try to get someone > higher up to review all this and report back > > Thx > Jay > >> On Jun 27, 2023, at 10:07 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches >> wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > My experience is different. First, I don't know of any stationary > battery systems that have C2 charge ability, many not even C1. A 20kWh > bank C2 rate would be 40kW or over 770Amps @ 52V. I have 10 years > experience with Li batteries, (hundreds of Li installations, mobile and > off grid), and thousands of LiFeBlue Battery customers, low current > charging works without issues. Most of these systems charge at the high > end 0.35 C rate or less. Jay did not mention the bank size so we don't > know the C rate for the 30-50 Amp recommendation. But I guess it is far > lower than 1C. > > Long absorb (CV) times may cause a cell to saturate resulting in rapid > voltage rise and the BMS protection inhibiting input current. This > sudden loss of load (essentially a battery disconnect) can cause havoc > with some inverter/chargers and PV solar controllers. In our > experience, the best method to set Absorb times for any Li system is by > trial. If the cell voltages are staying relatively close during > discharge (6mv in the attached image), then balancing time (> 3.55V CV) > is sufficient, whether it is 0.1 hours or much more. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > (GM, LiFeBlue Battery) > > <32ED5403-8A66-4ED5-AFFD-E308D5FC48C6_1_105_c.jpeg> > > On Jun 27, 2023, at 6:33 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, > most want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate. > > While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long > as you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to > full regularly. Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, > they should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate > damage to the cells. > > Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings. Too > many people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they > have parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, > or the batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers. > > In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the > absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need > balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get > that time if you have longer absorb timers. > > We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following. Assuming > that you are charging at least the C2 Rate. > > 1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers. > 2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins. > 3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins. > 4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins > > [1] > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > [2] [3] [4] [5] > > ------------------------- > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use > of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is > prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------- > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi Jay, Larry says is correct. My experience, with cells and there BMS > is they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop > charging the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill > charge. My oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they > have been fine > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All > > I'm wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? > > Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs > pouch? > > A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of > balanced. Tech support didn't suggest higher volts or longer absorb but > did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It's not in the manual. > > Wondering what you all think and know > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.rollsbattery.com/ [2] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [3] https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering [4] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [5] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [6] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 27 22:49:21 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 21:49:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay and all, I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest set of LiFe is almost 10 years? It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2 because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar. These batteries are doing fine. I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All > > I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? > > Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs > pouch? > > A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of > balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did > mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. > > Wondering what you all think and know > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Jun 28 11:46:22 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 08:46:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93666D05-A47C-4870-8FEB-0A09F2877DA5@starlightsolar.com> That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good example, Jay. We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed one mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore power connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots of heat doing so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries excluded. Lower operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower C rates. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Jay and all, I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest set of LiFe is almost 10 years? It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2 because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar. These batteries are doing fine. I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch? A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. Wondering what you all think and know Thx Jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jun 28 11:50:06 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 08:50:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: <93666D05-A47C-4870-8FEB-0A09F2877DA5@starlightsolar.com> References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> <93666D05-A47C-4870-8FEB-0A09F2877DA5@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Yes, thanks, Darryl... I did mean the C/2 or C/3 rate... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:47 AM Starlight via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good > example, Jay. > > We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed > one mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore power > connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots of heat > doing so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries excluded. > Lower operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower C rates. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Jay and all, I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest > set of LiFe is almost 10 years? It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2 > because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar. These batteries are doing > fine. I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All >> >> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? >> >> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs >> pouch? >> >> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of >> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did >> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. >> >> Wondering what you all think and know >> >> Thx >> Jay >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 28 12:55:53 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 09:55:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> <93666D05-A47C-4870-8FEB-0A09F2877DA5@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Steve, you folks still sell the Discover 6650 ? that I use alot. It is faster than C2, they claim. Not that one would want that offgrid where long life is required. Pretty amazing battery for winter genset use. ROLLS S24-2800LFP & S48-6650LFP ESS OPERATING MANUAL ENHANCED RUNTIME * Double the high-current runtime of lead-acid battery * Up to 100% usable capacity * Up to 100% depth of discharge EXTENDED SERVICE LIFE * 10x the life of lead-acid battery (BCI-06) * Unlimited Partial State of Charge cycles * 10-year energy throughput warranty (Requires Registration) FAST CHARGING * Up to 5x faster than new lead-acid batteries * Up to 10x faster than aged lead-acid batteries * 2X faster charging than C/2 Rated lithium batteries * 1C continuous charge rate, regardless of SoC SURGE POWER * Power for off-grid inverter surge demands * Up to 3C peak power discharge rate * 1C continuous discharge ra Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-28 8:50 am, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: > Yes, thanks, Darryl... I did mean the C/2 or C/3 rate... > > [1] > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > [2] [3] [4] [5] > > ------------------------- > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use > of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is > prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------- > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:47 AM Starlight via RE-wrenches > wrote: > That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good > example, Jay. > > We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed > one mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore > power connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots > of heat doing so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries > excluded. Lower operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower > C rates. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Jay and all, I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My > oldest set of LiFe is almost 10 years? It has a fastest charge rate of > C/0.2 because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar. These batteries > are doing fine. I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity > but > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi All > > I'm wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? > > Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs > pouch? > > A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of > balanced. Tech support didn't suggest higher volts or longer absorb but > did mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It's not in the manual. > > Wondering what you all think and know > > Thx > Jay _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.rollsbattery.com [2] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [3] https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering [4] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [5] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jun 28 13:12:23 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 10:12:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate In-Reply-To: References: <2BE22B7F-A892-405E-8C36-6BF7FEF27023@gmail.com> <93666D05-A47C-4870-8FEB-0A09F2877DA5@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: No, we don't. When you quickly charged those, we found they wouldn't balance well (Open Loop Comms). You may be able to do it, but in some systems, we found issues. I don't usually discuss marketing here, as I try to avoid it... But the question was asked. The R Series and the Upcoming S Series batteries are ours manufactured in the same contract mfg plants we manufacture our AGM batteries. Over the past few years, we have released the "R Series," which are Drop-in replacements for G24, G27, G31, 8D, and 4D sizes. These have a Bluetooth Application for Android devices that you can use to check SOCs, errors... etc... In the next few months, we will release the "S Series" Products... Here are a couple of screenshots of some of the information on them. I expect that we will be displaying these at RE+ in Vegas... [image: image.png] [image: image.png] [image: image.png] Contact me offline if you have any further questions. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 9:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Steve, you folks still sell the Discover 6650 ? that I use alot. It is > faster than C2, they claim. Not that one would want that offgrid where long > life is required. Pretty amazing battery for winter genset use. > > Rolls S24-2800LFP & S48-6650LFP ESS Operating Manual > > ENHANCED RUNTIME > > - Double the high-current runtime of lead-acid battery > - Up to 100% usable capacity > - Up to 100% depth of discharge > > EXTENDED SERVICE LIFE > > - 10x the life of lead-acid battery (BCI-06) > - Unlimited Partial State of Charge cycles > - 10-year energy throughput warranty (Requires Registration) > > FAST CHARGING > > - Up to 5x faster than new lead-acid batteries > - Up to 10x faster than aged lead-acid batteries > - 2X faster charging than C/2 Rated lithium batteries > - 1C continuous charge rate, regardless of SoC > > SURGE POWER > > - Power for off-grid inverter surge demands > - Up to 3C peak power discharge rate > - 1C continuous discharge ra > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-06-28 8:50 am, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yes, thanks, Darryl... I did mean the C/2 or C/3 rate... > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:47 AM Starlight via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good > example, Jay. > > We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed > one mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore power > connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots of heat > doing so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries excluded. > Lower operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower C rates. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Jay and all, I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest > set of LiFe is almost 10 years? It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2 > because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar. These batteries are doing > fine. I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All > > I'm wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not? > > Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs > pouch? > > A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of > balanced. Tech support didn't suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did > mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It's not in the manual. > > Wondering what you all think and know > > Thx > Jay > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 446722 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 360103 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 237668 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 29 07:54:59 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 07:54:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar Message-ID: Hi all, I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it (off-list is fine). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Thu Jun 29 07:58:23 2023 From: rich at solartechvt.com (rich at solartechvt.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 07:58:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002d01d9aa81$03639020$0a2ab060$@solartechvt.com> Hi Jason We’re using the Midnite MNCB battery combiner for the same purpose. https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=439 &productCatName=BATTERY I’m curious what others may suggest for options. Thanks Rich From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 7:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar Hi all, I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it (off-list is fine). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Jun 29 08:02:04 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 12:02:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithium SOC drift Message-ID: We have about 20 units out in service. All of the batteries SOC readings have drifted apart greatly. IE always said not pay attention the battery readouts, and as long as voltage is even, that the batteries are working fine. After the last install we did of their batteries, their tech support group had me make up a cable to hook up a computer to the battery to re - set the BMS I believe. I’m scheduled with a new tech support channel for Iron Edison to take this on. Has anyone done this before , and is it really going to do any good ? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Jun 29 08:10:37 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 07:10:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> I recommend the Victron Lynx Power In or the Lynx Distributor. Thank you, Maverick > On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. > > Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it (off-list is fine). > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 08:27:07 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 06:27:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> References: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, The Sol-Ark 15k has dual battery input terminals so they can be combined right inside. This could be a good option to consider. Thanks On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:17 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I recommend the Victron Lynx Power In or the Lynx Distributor. > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > > On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will > feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting > this up in the most elegant way possible. > > Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it > (off-list is fine). > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 29 08:33:16 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:33:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Mac. However, I am also paralleling two Sol-Ark 15k. Since each battery only accepts a single cable lug I believe, I need to make a splice somewhere. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 8:28 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > The Sol-Ark 15k has dual battery input terminals so they can be combined > right inside. This could be a good option to consider. > > Thanks > > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:17 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I recommend the Victron Lynx Power In or the Lynx Distributor. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >> On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi all, >> >> I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They >> will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for >> connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. >> >> Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it >> (off-list is fine). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 29 08:45:23 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:45:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: <002d01d9aa81$03639020$0a2ab060$@solartechvt.com> References: <002d01d9aa81$03639020$0a2ab060$@solartechvt.com> Message-ID: I was thinking the Midnite combiner, but it's a very big product for what we're trying to accomplish. I was hoping Polaris type tap connectors might be able to do it. I think this application is going to require a somewhere around 800A calculated minimum circuit ampacity. I'm not quite certain how to calculate the required ampacity properly for this bus. Either way, I would need to find a connector that accepts fine stranded cable. Such an animal might not exist in the required ampacity. The Ilsco PBTS line accepts find stranded cable, and if you stagger inputs and outputs it is my understanding that the ampacity allowance is additive. The 600 MCM 4-port connectors might have the required ampacity. Maybe I'm dreaming and a Polaris-type connector isn't an easy way out. Alternatively, I was thinking of a Blue Sea 1000A busbar mounted in a trough or junction box. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 7:58 AM wrote: > Hi Jason > > We’re using the Midnite MNCB battery combiner for the same purpose. > > > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=439&productCatName=BATTERY > > I’m curious what others may suggest for options. > > Thanks > > Rich > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2023 7:55 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will > feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting > this up in the most elegant way possible. > > > > Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it > (off-list is fine). > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 09:00:48 2023 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 07:00:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithium SOC drift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One of my clients had to do this a couple years back, and it did seem to reset the %SOC of each BMS. I however was not able to be there for it due to long travel distance. Iron Edison is no longer in business, so I don't know how much tech support you are going to get.... Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:05 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have about 20 units out in service. > All of the batteries SOC readings have drifted apart greatly. IE always > said not pay attention the battery readouts, and as long as voltage is > even, that the batteries are working fine. > After the last install we did of their batteries, their tech support group > had me make up a cable to hook up a computer to the battery to re - set the > BMS I believe. > I’m scheduled with a new tech support channel for Iron Edison to take this > on. Has anyone done this before , and is it really going to do any good ? > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 09:34:34 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 07:34:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 29 09:31:22 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 06:31:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Inverters/battery_iinverters/JP_Radian/JP_Radian.html Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2023 4:55 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar Hi all, I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it (off-list is fine). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Jun 29 09:42:25 2023 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 13:42:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Maverick, Per tech support, you need to buss battery output(s) to both input breakers to get the full 275 Amp output. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Inaugural Certified PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at SunstruckConsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (mobile) From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 8:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar Hi Jason, The Sol-Ark 15k has dual battery input terminals so they can be combined right inside. This could be a good option to consider. Thanks On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:17 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: I recommend the Victron Lynx Power In or the Lynx Distributor. Thank you, Maverick On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hi all, I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it (off-list is fine). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 29 09:42:48 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:42:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, William. I was thinking that exact same JBX12124 junction box. However, I think for my configuration I can fit everything in a single junction box with two Blue Sea Powerbar 1000 busbars. That might be a compact and cost effective solution. Really appreciate the pics! Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 9:35 AM William Miller wrote: > > > > > > https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Inverters/battery_iinverters/JP_Radian/JP_Radian.html > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2023 4:55 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will > feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting > this up in the most elegant way possible. > > > > Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it > (off-list is fine). > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 29 09:56:07 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:56:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Lloyd, Homegrid makes a busbar to combine the two terminals in the Sol-Ark 15k so it can accept a single 4/0 cable and retain the full output capacity. Apparently, Homegrid is the only battery on the market with the output capacity to do this. https://www.homegridenergy.com/stackd-series Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 9:43 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Maverick, > > > > Per tech support, you need to buss battery output(s) to both input > breakers to get the full 275 Amp output. > > > > Best regards, > > Lloyd > > > > Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy > > NABCEP Inaugural Certified PV Installer Emeritus > > Director, Sunstruck Consulting > > Lloyd at SunstruckConsulting.com > > 845-657-8132 (office) > > 914-844-3404 (mobile) > > > > *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > *Sent: *Thursday, June 29, 2023 8:27 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Cc: *Mac Lewis > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar > > > > Hi Jason, > > > > The Sol-Ark 15k has dual battery input terminals so they can be combined > right inside. This could be a good option to consider. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:17 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I recommend the Victron Lynx Power In or the Lynx Distributor. > > Thank you, > > > > Maverick > > > > > > On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Hi all, > > > > I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will > feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting > this up in the most elegant way possible. > > > > Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it > (off-list is fine). > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SOL-ARK-BUS-BAR_800x800.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22175 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BusBarPairforSol-Ark15K_800x800.webp Type: image/webp Size: 10386 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 10:46:46 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 07:46:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: Note that MidNite now also makes 2000A and 500A versions of their BCB. With two Sol-Ark 15k you do need to use the 1000A version with 275A each inverter. I can also confirm that you do need to use both of the battery terminals in the Sol-Ark 15k for full power, or the Homegrid bus bars that Jason shows. Brad Bassett On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:57 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Lloyd, > > Homegrid makes a busbar to combine the two terminals in the Sol-Ark 15k so > it can accept a single 4/0 cable and retain the full output capacity. > Apparently, Homegrid is the only battery on the market with the output > capacity to do this. > > https://www.homegridenergy.com/stackd-series > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 9:43 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Maverick, >> >> >> >> Per tech support, you need to buss battery output(s) to both input >> breakers to get the full 275 Amp output. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Lloyd >> >> >> >> Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy >> >> NABCEP Inaugural Certified PV Installer Emeritus >> >> Director, Sunstruck Consulting >> >> Lloyd at SunstruckConsulting.com >> >> 845-657-8132 (office) >> >> 914-844-3404 (mobile) >> >> >> >> *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches >> *Sent: *Thursday, June 29, 2023 8:27 AM >> *To: *RE-wrenches >> *Cc: *Mac Lewis >> *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar >> >> >> >> Hi Jason, >> >> >> >> The Sol-Ark 15k has dual battery input terminals so they can be combined >> right inside. This could be a good option to consider. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:17 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I recommend the Victron Lynx Power In or the Lynx Distributor. >> >> Thank you, >> >> >> >> Maverick >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They >> will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for >> connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. >> >> >> >> Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it >> (off-list is fine). >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Jun 29 10:58:41 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 10:58:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: References: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <00d101d9aa9a$32620370$97260a50$@mindspring.com> Morning all You may also want to look at the Victron products. They have a 1000 amp version called the Lynx distributor. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 10:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bradley Bassett Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar Note that MidNite now also makes 2000A and 500A versions of their BCB. With two Sol-Ark 15k you do need to use the 1000A version with 275A each inverter. I can also confirm that you do need to use both of the battery terminals in the Sol-Ark 15k for full power, or the Homegrid bus bars that Jason shows. Brad Bassett On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:57 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: Lloyd, Homegrid makes a busbar to combine the two terminals in the Sol-Ark 15k so it can accept a single 4/0 cable and retain the full output capacity. Apparently, Homegrid is the only battery on the market with the output capacity to do this. https://www.homegridenergy.com/stackd-series Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 9:43 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Maverick, Per tech support, you need to buss battery output(s) to both input breakers to get the full 275 Amp output. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Inaugural Certified PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at SunstruckConsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (mobile) From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 8:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar Hi Jason, The Sol-Ark 15k has dual battery input terminals so they can be combined right inside. This could be a good option to consider. Thanks On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:17 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches > wrote: I recommend the Victron Lynx Power In or the Lynx Distributor. Thank you, Maverick On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hi all, I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting this up in the most elegant way possible. Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it (off-list is fine). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jun 29 11:19:04 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 11:19:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration Message-ID: All, I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and inverter outputs. For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters are automatically set to this charge rate as well. Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. Ideas? -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 11:35:30 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 10:35:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithium SOC drift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had similar problems with other equipment. fully the battery to top balance and then reset the SOC On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 7:04 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have about 20 units out in service. > All of the batteries SOC readings have drifted apart greatly. IE always > said not pay attention the battery readouts, and as long as voltage is > even, that the batteries are working fine. > After the last install we did of their batteries, their tech support group > had me make up a cable to hook up a computer to the battery to re - set the > BMS I believe. > I’m scheduled with a new tech support channel for Iron Edison to take this > on. Has anyone done this before , and is it really going to do any good ? > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jun 29 12:24:48 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:24:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94A30F84-A675-42E7-A973-A73A6F90753B@starlightsolar.com> You may already know but… Are your DC cables bonded together and twisted where possible to reduce magnetic fields? Higher the current and greater the loop area, the stronger the fields are. More parallel loops, the greater the combined flux = loud Hums. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 29, 2023, at 8:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: All, I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and inverter outputs. For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters are automatically set to this charge rate as well. Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. Ideas? -- Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 29 12:51:49 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 11:51:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, just a few comments, The inverter charger has a ripple on the DC. All have this; Outback is no exception. However, all wires should be run together, positive and negative same conduit and same hole, as the AC ripple magnetic effects cancel from both wires. Also, the circuit breaker has an internal loop to assist in the trip, you may want to form a loop on the non-breaker conductor. Years ago, I was faced with the ripple on the DC problem using a Xantrex inverter (I think) I added a 150-volt electrolytic capacitor across the battery lines, CAUTION: this may destroy the Radians So check with Outback!!! On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 10:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All, > > I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, > connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. > > For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified > to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and > inverter outputs. > > For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC > amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters > are automatically set to this charge rate as well. > > Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible > vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. > > So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly > by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the > The box itself is also vibrating by feel. > > I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration > definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised > because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost > reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not > seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. > > I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that > this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. > Ideas? > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Thu Jun 29 13:03:55 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 10:03:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: <94A30F84-A675-42E7-A973-A73A6F90753B@starlightsolar.com> References: <94A30F84-A675-42E7-A973-A73A6F90753B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: The battery cables being close together, twisted too if possible, help reduce cable inductance which can cause voltage drop across those cables at higher currents with 120 Hz ripple. Mainly with low frequency transformer inverter/chargers. It's better to have them closer together than far apart, especially for longer battery cables. 🌜boB🌛 On 6/29/2023 9:24 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > You may already know but… Are your DC cables bonded together and > twisted where possible to reduce magnetic fields? Higher the current > and greater the loop area, the stronger the fields are. More parallel > loops, the greater the combined flux = loud Hums. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jun 29, 2023, at 8:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > All, > > I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, > connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. > > For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, > modified to mount  class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery > inputs and inverter outputs. > > For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC > amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other > inverters are automatically set to this charge rate as well. > > Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible > vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to > 500 A. > > So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating > noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting > tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. > > I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration > definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised > because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It > almost reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The > vibration did not seem to be originating at the inverters, then > resonating to the combiner. > > I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised > that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened > properly. Ideas? > > > > > > > > > > > -- > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar* > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > */Celebrating our 32^st  Anniversary 1991-2023!!/* > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jun 29 13:09:58 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 13:09:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: <94A30F84-A675-42E7-A973-A73A6F90753B@starlightsolar.com> References: <94A30F84-A675-42E7-A973-A73A6F90753B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: I have not twisted them. It is a lot of Cable as you might imagine and they aren’t paired close together individual inverter to combiner or combiner to battery cabinets, not 100% of the cable lengths anyway, maybe on average 80% On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 12:25 PM Starlight wrote: > You may already know but… Are your DC cables bonded together and twisted > where possible to reduce magnetic fields? Higher the current and greater > the loop area, the stronger the fields are. More parallel loops, the > greater the combined flux = loud Hums. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jun 29, 2023, at 8:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > All, > > I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, > connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. > > For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified > to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and > inverter outputs. > > For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC > amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters > are automatically set to this charge rate as well. > > Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible > vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. > > So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly > by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the > The box itself is also vibrating by feel. > > I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration > definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised > because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost > reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not > seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. > > I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that > this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. > Ideas? > > > > > > > > > > > -- > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Jun 29 13:24:08 2023 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 10:24:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: <94A30F84-A675-42E7-A973-A73A6F90753B@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <7EA3E16D-0D46-4CDA-972D-0EB2F09BE317@me.com> Good morning all. Seems we’ve all been aware of best practices for keeping DC cables bound together and twisted when possible. Does anyone know why Simpliphi recommends the exact opposite on page 18 of their installation manual? I recall observing this awhile ago and thought it was just something that they would remedy in their next manual revision cycle but appears to still be noted. Has their own validated testing for Simpliphi specific installs concluded to be contrary to others? Off to work, Nick > On Jun 29, 2023, at 10:09 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have not twisted them. It is a lot of Cable as you might imagine and they aren’t paired close together individual inverter to combiner or combiner to battery cabinets, not 100% of the cable lengths anyway, maybe on average 80% > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 12:25 PM Starlight > wrote: > You may already know but… Are your DC cables bonded together and twisted where possible to reduce magnetic fields? Higher the current and greater the loop area, the stronger the fields are. More parallel loops, the greater the combined flux = loud Hums. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jun 29, 2023, at 8:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > All, > > I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. > > For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and inverter outputs. > > For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters are automatically set to this charge rate as well. > > Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. > > So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. > > I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. > > I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. Ideas? > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 29 16:32:50 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 16:32:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar In-Reply-To: <00d101d9aa9a$32620370$97260a50$@mindspring.com> References: <75C6BB45-5ABE-4CD5-923B-E216D3D0ADE5@mavericksolar.com> <00d101d9aa9a$32620370$97260a50$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: It looks like the Lynx Power In (without fuses like the Distributor) would work in my application. In fact, it appears it can be accomplished with a single unit, making it a pretty sleek and cost-effective solution. I'll look into that and let you know what direction I went once it's all installed. Thanks, all. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 10:58 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Morning all > > > > You may also want to look at the Victron products. They have a 1000 amp > version called the Lynx distributor. > > > > Peter Giroux > > ASAE > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, June 29, 2023 10:47 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Bradley Bassett > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar > > > > Note that MidNite now also makes 2000A and 500A versions of their BCB. > With two Sol-Ark 15k you do need to use the 1000A version with 275A each > inverter. I can also confirm that you do need to use both of the battery > terminals in the Sol-Ark 15k for full power, or the Homegrid bus bars that > Jason shows. > > > > Brad Bassett > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:57 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Lloyd, > > > > Homegrid makes a busbar to combine the two terminals in the Sol-Ark 15k so > it can accept a single 4/0 cable and retain the full output capacity. > Apparently, Homegrid is the only battery on the market with the output > capacity to do this. > > > > https://www.homegridenergy.com/stackd-series > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 9:43 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Maverick, > > > > Per tech support, you need to buss battery output(s) to both input > breakers to get the full 275 Amp output. > > > > Best regards, > > Lloyd > > > > Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy > > NABCEP Inaugural Certified PV Installer Emeritus > > Director, Sunstruck Consulting > > Lloyd at SunstruckConsulting.com > > 845-657-8132 (office) > > 914-844-3404 (mobile) > > > > *From: *Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > *Sent: *Thursday, June 29, 2023 8:27 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Cc: *Mac Lewis > *Subject: *Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Homegrid Stack'd Busbar > > > > Hi Jason, > > > > The Sol-Ark 15k has dual battery input terminals so they can be combined > right inside. This could be a good option to consider. > > > > Thanks > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 6:17 AM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I recommend the Victron Lynx Power In or the Lynx Distributor. > > Thank you, > > > > Maverick > > > > > > On Jun 29, 2023, at 6:55 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Hi all, > > > > I'm doing my first installation with two 24 kWh Homegrid stacks. They will > feed two Sol-Ark 15k. I'm seeking recommendations on busbars for connecting > this up in the most elegant way possible. > > > > Pictures speak 1,000 words, so if you have any I would appreciate it > (off-list is fine). > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 00:39:39 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 21:39:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. More information may help with a solution. Fun times solar NABCEP PV Inspector On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All, > > I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, > connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. > > For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified > to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and > inverter outputs. > > For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC > amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters > are automatically set to this charge rate as well. > > Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible > vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. > > So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly > by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the > The box itself is also vibrating by feel. > > I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration > definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised > because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost > reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not > seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. > > I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that > this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. > Ideas? > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Jun 30 06:59:09 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 06:59:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the combiner. They are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for 80% of their respective distance. The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective inverter. They are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length. Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present due to computer issues. I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no derating of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be the issue. I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but doing it from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is willing to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down the road? Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Kirk > As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the > battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC > noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine > come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install > configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long > some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. > More information may help with a solution. > Fun times solar > NABCEP PV Inspector > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> All, >> >> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, >> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. >> >> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified >> to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and >> inverter outputs. >> >> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC >> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters >> are automatically set to this charge rate as well. >> >> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible >> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. >> >> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly >> by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the >> The box itself is also vibrating by feel. >> >> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration >> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised >> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost >> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not >> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. >> >> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that >> this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. >> Ideas? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Jun 30 09:49:01 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 09:49:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Solar Edge, pre HD Wave Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone know if you can make the SolarEdge inverters (the A series, before the HD wave inverters) respond to frequency control? I cannot find a way to update the grid settings, and was wondering if anyone else has AC coupled these inverters to a non-SolarEdge battery system. If not, its not a big deal, since these batteries are just for short term backup, so if the inverter just cycle off and on when the batteries are mostly full, that will be okay. But it would be nice if I can set up the frequency control. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Jun 30 10:07:25 2023 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 08:07:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Solar Edge, pre HD Wave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good Morning, Dave, Take a look at this pdf and see if the info about setting up "Grid Protection" gets you anywhere. Starting on page three it shows how to make the Vmin/max and Fmin/max for screened inverters. What I can't verify for you is whether the A series has the same menu structure as highlighted in this document or not. https://knowledge-center.solaredge.com/sites/kc/files/viewing_grid_protection_values.pdf Cheers, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Field Operations Director (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Jun 30 10:28:16 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 10:28:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC coupling with Solar Edge, pre HD Wave In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sam, Thanks for pointing me in that direction. It looks like you can update some of the grid protection settings, although I am not sure if that will allow for freq-watt control. My LG rep told me to use CA rule 21 grid profile, but I am not sure if there is something like that on the old A series inverters. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 10:07 AM Sam Haraldson wrote: > Good Morning, Dave, > > Take a look at this pdf and see if the info about setting up "Grid > Protection" gets you anywhere. Starting on page three it shows how to make > the Vmin/max and Fmin/max for screened inverters. What I can't verify for > you is whether the A series has the same menu structure as highlighted in > this document or not. > > > https://knowledge-center.solaredge.com/sites/kc/files/viewing_grid_protection_values.pdf > > Cheers, > Sam > > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Field Operations Director > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Jun 30 11:45:19 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 08:45:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ferrite cores can be used for the battery cables to pass through to reduce common mode current On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the combiner. They > are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for 80% of > their respective distance. > > The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective inverter. They > are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length. > Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present due to computer issues. > > I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no derating > of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be the issue. > > I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but doing it > from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. > > And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is willing > to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down the road? > Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. > > > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Kirk >> As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the >> battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC >> noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine >> come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install >> configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long >> some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. >> More information may help with a solution. >> Fun times solar >> NABCEP PV Inspector >> >> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, >>> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. >>> >>> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified >>> to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and >>> inverter outputs. >>> >>> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC >>> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters >>> are automatically set to this charge rate as well. >>> >>> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible >>> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. >>> >>> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly >>> by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the >>> The box itself is also vibrating by feel. >>> >>> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration >>> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised >>> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost >>> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not >>> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. >>> >>> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised >>> that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened >>> properly. Ideas? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.863.1202 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at tamaracksolar.com Fri Jun 30 12:39:24 2023 From: dkatz at tamaracksolar.com (David Katz) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 16:39:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question Message-ID: I have an LG Chem RESU10H Battery that was originally sold with a SunnyStorage inverter. Does anyone know if there is a way to turn on the battery output terminals so it can be charged without the inverter. No lights come on when you turn on the main switch and the output breaker. There is a small terminal strip for control wires. There is a 12V + and - terminal and a Batt En terminal. Does any one know if powering the Batt En. Terminal turns it on? I am going to try that but I am not sure what voltage that terminal wants to see. Thanks David Katz [cid:image001.png at 01D9AB34.2025D660] David Katz President www.tamaracksolar.com (707) 222-6240 Ext: 105 | (707) 832-7487 dkatz at tamaracksolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 9573 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Fri Jun 30 12:45:45 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 09:45:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69d19ba2-a44b-addc-8539-a32c48319d6d@midnitesolar.com> We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue here is that the enclosure for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is ferrous.  That means that when the 120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can vibrate just like a transformer. Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple than the newer HF transformer units but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well. This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and we haven't heard any complaints but maybe others have been silent on this.  I am not surprised at all that this happens. Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor so when the whole enclosure forms around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in a transformer.  It is usually just lossy but should vibrate much less, if at all. There are other issues in switching to aluminum that Robin mentions, here: /"One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press nuts instead of snail shells. // //Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in aluminum. It is too soft. Aluminum would not // //vibrate from magnetic ripple activity though." /He has some ideas to make aluminum work so we will try those./ / Now, plastic could work.   Just has to be real thick.    Darn physics ! Damping can help, like Kirk tried (more can be done here too). Keeping the cables together best as you can inside the chassis may help as well but moving and routing the cables might also reduce the buzzing some more. That's the latest buzz from here. 🌜boB🌛     K7IQ On 6/30/2023 8:45 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > Ferrite cores can be used for the battery cables to pass through to > reduce common mode current > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the > combiner. They are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire > cable tray for 80% of their respective distance. > > The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective > inverter. They are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere > from 10 -20' in length. Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at > present due to computer issues. > > I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no > derating of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be > the issue. > > I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but > doing it from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. > > And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is > willing to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down > the road? Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. > > > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Kirk > As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. > Are the battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have > seen this correct DC noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 > and l have no noise at all, mine come in from each side of the > battery combiner, how is your install configured, how is the > cable length same close or very short to very long some length > is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. > More information may help with a solution. > Fun times solar > NABCEP PV Inspector > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > All, > > I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP > battery bank, connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw > inverter/chargers. > > For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner > boxes, modified to mount  class T fuses on the positive > bus, for both battery inputs and inverter outputs. > > For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge > rate of 20 AC amps, which equates to a DC charge of about > 74 A. All the other inverters are automatically set to > this charge rate as well. > > Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite > an audible vibration from the combiner box at a combined > charge of about 400 to 500 A. > > So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was > vibrating noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from > the cover not fitting tight. But the The box itself is > also vibrating by feel. > > I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of > vibration definitely increases with an increased charge > rate. And I am surprised because after all, we’re not > talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost reminds me of > a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did > not seem to be originating at the inverters, then > resonating to the combiner. > > I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m > surprised that this is happening. All connections in the > combiner are tightened properly. Ideas? > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 32^st  Anniversary 1991-2023!!/* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar* > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 32^st  Anniversary 1991-2023!!/* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 13:09:30 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 12:09:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are we all thinking single phase? Another idea would be to use plastic enclosures in at least some way to break the magnetic path. This is a lot of current, and it will cause magnetic heating where the magnetic loop is complete. On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 10:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All, > > I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, > connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. > > For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified > to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and > inverter outputs. > > For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC > amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters > are automatically set to this charge rate as well. > > Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible > vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. > > So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly > by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the > The box itself is also vibrating by feel. > > I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration > definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised > because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost > reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not > seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. > > I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that > this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. > Ideas? > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 30 13:40:35 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 10:40:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54860d11f6977e3570e4f2c6776c268b@sti.net> Hi David, I own and tested the 48V version Resu10, not the 10H that you have. On the one I have, the battery needs a heartbeat signal to operate. Without that signal from the inverter or a device that talks to LG battery the contactor will open and shut down the battery. This was a pretty early lithium offering and has proven to be very undesirable. We destroyed 2 of the Resu 10's with XW charge currents. Not sure if your plan is safe. Maybe the guy's here will know more. I would hold off until. Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-30 9:39 am, David Katz via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have an LG Chem RESU10H Battery that was originally sold with a > SunnyStorage inverter. Does anyone know if there is a way to turn on > the battery output terminals so it can be charged without the inverter. > No lights come on when you turn on the main switch and the output > breaker. There is a small terminal strip for control wires. There is a > 12V + and - terminal and a Batt En terminal. Does any one know if > powering the Batt En. Terminal turns it on? I am going to try that but > I am not sure what voltage that terminal wants to see. > > Thanks > > David Katz > > David Katz > > President > > www.tamaracksolar.com [1] > > (707) 222-6240 Ext: 105 | (707) 832-7487 > > dkatz at tamaracksolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.tamaracksolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 9573 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Jun 30 14:33:02 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 14:33:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: <69d19ba2-a44b-addc-8539-a32c48319d6d@midnitesolar.com> References: <69d19ba2-a44b-addc-8539-a32c48319d6d@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Hello, what do people think about the suggestion for chokes to filter this noise out? How do I go about sizing a choke for something like that? Would it have to be on each and every positive and negative conductor? And I assume I’d wanna place those chokes as close as practical to the inverters because that’s the assumed source of the 120 Hz ripple. And maybe that approach could also harden the inverters against EMP and other outside induced noise. I am using 2 inch SEU connectors, metallic, to pass the cables into and out of the combiner, I guess that’s not helping things. I was thinking of using some heat resistant rubber tape/mastic to wrap the cables as they pass through those connectors at least for dampening. On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:46 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue here is that > the enclosure > for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is ferrous. That means > that when the > 120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can vibrate just like a > transformer. > > Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple than the newer > HF transformer units > but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well. > > This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and we haven't > heard any complaints > but maybe others have been silent on this. I am not surprised at all that > this happens. > > Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor so when the > whole enclosure forms > around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in a > transformer. It is usually just > lossy but should vibrate much less, if at all. > > There are other issues in switching to aluminum that Robin mentions, here: > > *"One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press > nuts instead of snail shells. * > *Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in aluminum. It is too > soft. Aluminum would not * > > > *vibrate from magnetic ripple activity though." *He has some ideas to > make aluminum work so we will try those. > > Now, plastic could work. Just has to be real thick. Darn physics ! > > Damping can help, like Kirk tried (more can be done here too). Keeping > the cables > together best as you can inside the chassis may help as well but moving > and routing > the cables might also reduce the buzzing some more. > > That's the latest buzz from here. > > 🌜boB🌛 > K7IQ > > On 6/30/2023 8:45 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Ferrite cores can be used for the battery cables to pass through to reduce > common mode current > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the combiner. >> They are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for 80% >> of their respective distance. >> >> The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective inverter. They >> are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length. >> Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present due to computer issues. >> >> I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no derating >> of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be the issue. >> >> I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but doing it >> from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. >> >> And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is willing >> to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down the road? >> Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Kirk >>> As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the >>> battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC >>> noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine >>> come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install >>> configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long >>> some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. >>> More information may help with a solution. >>> Fun times solar >>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, >>>> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. >>>> >>>> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, >>>> modified to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery >>>> inputs and inverter outputs. >>>> >>>> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC >>>> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters >>>> are automatically set to this charge rate as well. >>>> >>>> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible >>>> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. >>>> >>>> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating >>>> noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting >>>> tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. >>>> >>>> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration >>>> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised >>>> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost >>>> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not >>>> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. >>>> >>>> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised >>>> that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened >>>> properly. Ideas? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>> >>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>> >>>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>>> >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> >>>> 802.863.1202 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at tamaracksolar.com Fri Jun 30 15:02:50 2023 From: dkatz at tamaracksolar.com (David Katz) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 19:02:50 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question In-Reply-To: <54860d11f6977e3570e4f2c6776c268b@sti.net> References: <54860d11f6977e3570e4f2c6776c268b@sti.net> Message-ID: Thanks Dave. That’s why I am asking. Does the heart beat come through the Can Bus? There are a lot of these around that did not work as intended. I am consdidering opening this one up and reconfiguring for 56 volts. This one is 450 volts. Maybe that’s what the H stands for. David [cid:image001.png at 01D9AB4A.CA07F8F0] David Katz President www.tamaracksolar.com (707) 222-6240 Ext: 105 | (707) 832-7487 dkatz at tamaracksolar.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 10:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question Hi David, I own and tested the 48V version Resu10, not the 10H that you have. On the one I have, the battery needs a heartbeat signal to operate. Without that signal from the inverter or a device that talks to LG battery the contactor will open and shut down the battery. This was a pretty early lithium offering and has proven to be very undesirable. We destroyed 2 of the Resu 10's with XW charge currents. Not sure if your plan is safe. Maybe the guy's here will know more. I would hold off until. Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-30 9:39 am, David Katz via RE-wrenches wrote: I have an LG Chem RESU10H Battery that was originally sold with a SunnyStorage inverter. Does anyone know if there is a way to turn on the battery output terminals so it can be charged without the inverter. No lights come on when you turn on the main switch and the output breaker. There is a small terminal strip for control wires. There is a 12V + and – terminal and a Batt En terminal. Does any one know if powering the Batt En. Terminal turns it on? I am going to try that but I am not sure what voltage that terminal wants to see. Thanks David Katz [cid:image001.png at 01D9AB4A.CA07F8F0] David Katz President www.tamaracksolar.com (707) 222-6240 Ext: 105 | (707) 832-7487 dkatz at tamaracksolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 9573 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Jun 30 15:15:07 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 12:15:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question In-Reply-To: <54860d11f6977e3570e4f2c6776c268b@sti.net> References: <54860d11f6977e3570e4f2c6776c268b@sti.net> Message-ID: Hi David and David, it’s me David Since no lights come on when you turn the breakers on, it sounds like the battery is deeply discharged. I bought a specialized charger for the RESU10H. If you want to borrow it let me know. David Quattro On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi David, > > I own and tested the 48V version Resu10, not the 10H that you have. On the > one I have, the battery needs a heartbeat signal to operate. > Without that signal from the inverter or a device that talks to LG battery > the contactor will open and shut down the battery. > > This was a pretty early lithium offering and has proven to be very > undesirable. We destroyed 2 of the Resu 10's with XW charge currents. > > Not sure if your plan is safe. Maybe the guy's here will know more. I > would hold off until. Good Luck > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-06-30 9:39 am, David Katz via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have an LG Chem RESU10H Battery that was originally sold with a > SunnyStorage inverter. Does anyone know if there is a way to turn on the > battery output terminals so it can be charged without the inverter. No > lights come on when you turn on the main switch and the output breaker. > There is a small terminal strip for control wires. There is a 12V + and – > terminal and a Batt En terminal. Does any one know if powering the Batt > En. Terminal turns it on? I am going to try that but I am not sure what > voltage that terminal wants to see. > > Thanks > > David Katz > > > > David Katz > > *President* > > *www.tamaracksolar.com * > > (707) 222-6240 Ext: 105 | (707) 832-7487 > > dkatz at tamaracksolar.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 9573 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dkatz at tamaracksolar.com Fri Jun 30 15:18:38 2023 From: dkatz at tamaracksolar.com (David Katz) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 19:18:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question In-Reply-To: References: <54860d11f6977e3570e4f2c6776c268b@sti.net> Message-ID: Hi David. There sure are a lot of David’s around. Where are you. I would love to borrow it. David Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of david quattro via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, June 30, 2023 12:15:07 PM To: RE-wrenches ; offgridsolar at sti.net Cc: david quattro Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question Hi David and David, it’s me David Since no lights come on when you turn the breakers on, it sounds like the battery is deeply discharged. I bought a specialized charger for the RESU10H. If you want to borrow it let me know. David Quattro On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 10:40 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi David, I own and tested the 48V version Resu10, not the 10H that you have. On the one I have, the battery needs a heartbeat signal to operate. Without that signal from the inverter or a device that talks to LG battery the contactor will open and shut down the battery. This was a pretty early lithium offering and has proven to be very undesirable. We destroyed 2 of the Resu 10's with XW charge currents. Not sure if your plan is safe. Maybe the guy's here will know more. I would hold off until. Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-30 9:39 am, David Katz via RE-wrenches wrote: I have an LG Chem RESU10H Battery that was originally sold with a SunnyStorage inverter. Does anyone know if there is a way to turn on the battery output terminals so it can be charged without the inverter. No lights come on when you turn on the main switch and the output breaker. There is a small terminal strip for control wires. There is a 12V + and – terminal and a Batt En terminal. Does any one know if powering the Batt En. Terminal turns it on? I am going to try that but I am not sure what voltage that terminal wants to see. Thanks David Katz [cid:1890d94204ead7999131] David Katz President www.tamaracksolar.com (707) 222-6240 Ext: 105 | (707) 832-7487 dkatz at tamaracksolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4x2CRHFQ2qTbaBSriGv3NFF6o3vPHKxr35HvBHYllFRBH-f8WALTOLOC2nxs0tEJHjB2WO6u2FFqPE4NBNuRqDKo2NJa7HpcNg2TVse5Q] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 9573 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 15:41:22 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 14:41:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10H Battery Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David I think although it is 450 volts out, the battery is actually moch lower voltage and has a buck boost charge controller. It bucks the voltage down to charge the battery and boost the voltage to serve the load. If you open the battery and rewire you will need a BMS, you can find on line but you need to know the battery voltages I think it is 3.8 to 4.1. NMC perhaps some one on line knows On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 11:40 AM David Katz via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have an LG Chem RESU10H Battery that was originally sold with a > SunnyStorage inverter. Does anyone know if there is a way to turn on the > battery output terminals so it can be charged without the inverter. No > lights come on when you turn on the main switch and the output breaker. > There is a small terminal strip for control wires. There is a 12V + and – > terminal and a Batt En terminal. Does any one know if powering the Batt > En. Terminal turns it on? I am going to try that but I am not sure what > voltage that terminal wants to see. > > Thanks > > David Katz > > > > David Katz > > *President* > > *www.tamaracksolar.com * > > (707) 222-6240 Ext: 105 | (707) 832-7487 > > dkatz at tamaracksolar.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 9573 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 9573 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Fri Jun 30 17:14:41 2023 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 14:14:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufactured homes Message-ID: <33225F92-DD3A-4D6F-8D57-983B78A223E9@mendocinosolar.com> Hi California guys, We have a couple of leads that are manufactured homes, that have to be permitted through the CA Housing and Community Development office. The HCD wants roof engineering, and we are having trouble finding anyone local who will do this. Has anyone worked with an engineering firm anywhere in CA that is willing to deal with manufactured housing? (The builder of the houses has been no help other than providing non-stamped drawings.) Thanks, Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 30 17:25:57 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 16:25:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufactured homes In-Reply-To: <33225F92-DD3A-4D6F-8D57-983B78A223E9@mendocinosolar.com> References: <33225F92-DD3A-4D6F-8D57-983B78A223E9@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: check with Iron Ridge as they have done for me On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:15 PM Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi California guys, > > We have a couple of leads that are manufactured homes, that have to be > permitted through the CA Housing and Community Development office. The HCD > wants roof engineering, and we are having trouble finding anyone local who > will do this. Has anyone worked with an engineering firm anywhere in CA > that is willing to deal with manufactured housing? (The builder of the > houses has been no help other than providing non-stamped drawings.) > > Thanks, > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > > > "Serving the Solar System" > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 30 18:25:04 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 15:25:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Manufactured homes In-Reply-To: <33225F92-DD3A-4D6F-8D57-983B78A223E9@mendocinosolar.com> References: <33225F92-DD3A-4D6F-8D57-983B78A223E9@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: <329716d25adb18226d656731be7b4558@sti.net> I lived in Mariposa CA before moving to Nevada. The workaround was to buy a metal roof structure like a car barn and cover the M home with it. The metal car barn had the snow load engineering. This made the building department happy. I definitely would not put solar on a manufactured home and expect any support from the AHJ. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-06-30 2:14 pm, Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi California guys, > > We have a couple of leads that are manufactured homes, that have to be > permitted through the CA Housing and Community Development office. The > HCD wants roof engineering, and we are having trouble finding anyone > local who will do this. Has anyone worked with an engineering firm > anywhere in CA that is willing to deal with manufactured housing? (The > builder of the houses has been no help other than providing non-stamped > drawings.) > > Thanks, > Bruce Erickson > Mendocino Solar Service > 707-937-1701 > PO Box 1252 > Mendocino, CA 95460 > > "Serving the Solar System" > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jul 1 00:38:52 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 21:38:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Kirk Once you learn what is causing the issue then deciding on what to do is safer, If you have access to a scope that may show you a DC side fluctuation, pulsing or plain noise in the system. Fun times in solar On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:00 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the combiner. They > are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for 80% of > their respective distance. > > The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective inverter. They > are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length. > Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present due to computer issues. > > I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no derating > of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be the issue. > > I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but doing it > from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. > > And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is willing > to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down the road? > Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. > > > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Kirk >> As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the >> battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC >> noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine >> come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install >> configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long >> some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. >> More information may help with a solution. >> Fun times solar >> NABCEP PV Inspector >> >> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, >>> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. >>> >>> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified >>> to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and >>> inverter outputs. >>> >>> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC >>> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters >>> are automatically set to this charge rate as well. >>> >>> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible >>> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. >>> >>> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly >>> by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the >>> The box itself is also vibrating by feel. >>> >>> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration >>> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised >>> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost >>> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not >>> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. >>> >>> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised >>> that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened >>> properly. Ideas? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.863.1202 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Jul 1 12:19:11 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2023 12:19:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: <69d19ba2-a44b-addc-8539-a32c48319d6d@midnitesolar.com> References: <69d19ba2-a44b-addc-8539-a32c48319d6d@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: I'm going to first obtain access to an oscilloscope to characterize and screenshot this phenomena, both before and after any mitigation I do. On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:46 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue here is that > the enclosure > for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is ferrous. That means > that when the > 120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can vibrate just like a > transformer. > > Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple than the newer > HF transformer units > but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well. > > This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and we haven't > heard any complaints > but maybe others have been silent on this. I am not surprised at all that > this happens. > > Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor so when the > whole enclosure forms > around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in a > transformer. It is usually just > lossy but should vibrate much less, if at all. > > There are other issues in switching to aluminum that Robin mentions, here: > > *"One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press > nuts instead of snail shells. * > *Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in aluminum. It is too > soft. Aluminum would not * > > > *vibrate from magnetic ripple activity though." *He has some ideas to > make aluminum work so we will try those. > > Now, plastic could work. Just has to be real thick. Darn physics ! > > Damping can help, like Kirk tried (more can be done here too). Keeping > the cables > together best as you can inside the chassis may help as well but moving > and routing > the cables might also reduce the buzzing some more. > > That's the latest buzz from here. > > 🌜boB🌛 > K7IQ > > On 6/30/2023 8:45 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Ferrite cores can be used for the battery cables to pass through to reduce > common mode current > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the combiner. >> They are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for 80% >> of their respective distance. >> >> The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective inverter. They >> are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length. >> Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present due to computer issues. >> >> I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no derating >> of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be the issue. >> >> I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but doing it >> from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. >> >> And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is willing >> to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down the road? >> Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Kirk >>> As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the >>> battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC >>> noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine >>> come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install >>> configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long >>> some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. >>> More information may help with a solution. >>> Fun times solar >>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, >>>> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. >>>> >>>> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, >>>> modified to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery >>>> inputs and inverter outputs. >>>> >>>> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC >>>> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters >>>> are automatically set to this charge rate as well. >>>> >>>> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible >>>> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. >>>> >>>> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating >>>> noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting >>>> tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. >>>> >>>> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration >>>> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised >>>> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost >>>> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not >>>> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. >>>> >>>> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised >>>> that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened >>>> properly. Ideas? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>> >>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>> >>>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>>> >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> >>>> 802.863.1202 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Jul 1 16:15:28 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2023 16:15:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: <42EB10B0-B442-47DF-909D-CE96CAC17E5F@midnitesolar.com> References: <42EB10B0-B442-47DF-909D-CE96CAC17E5F@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Hi, yes I read Robins email, but the class T fuses are in series only with the large DC cable breakers (Heineman, Airpax, etc.) in the Outback GSLC. I might be missing something, perhaps again. On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 3:09 PM Robin wrote: > Ryan thinks it may be the classT fuses. We have a vibration issue when > classT fuses are connected to CBI breakers. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 1, 2023, at 11:32 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > >  > Hi Kirk. Did you receive the email that Robin sent to you ? > > You can measure things like, with your scope but you would want to look at > the current > from the inverter to battery. > > You could also use your clamp meter and look at DC and AC. > Set it to AC to view the ripple current. > > I will copy/paste what Robin and Ryan sent to you and our support team > below in case it didn't come through. > > 🌜boB🌛 > > > > > On 6/30/2023 7:55 AM, ryan at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > Kirk, > > Any chance this is the Class T Fuses resonating from the PWM on the DC > current? Feel free to give me a call would love to discuss this further > > > > 207-416-2006 > > > > *From:* robin > *Sent:* Friday, June 30, 2023 10:47 AM > *To:* kirkh at vermont.solar > *Cc:* bob at midnitesolar.com; ryan > ; James Parish > ; todd at midnitesolar.com; Michelle Neville > > *Subject:* Vibrations > > > > Kirk, Although this is the first I have heard of this, boB says he isn’t > surprised. I am copying the tech support group here in hopes we can all > learn something. > > > > We have been shipping these boxes for about 8 years now and not a peep. > > boB says the ripple current is 120Hz AC and with that many amps it is not > surprising. I will check with our metal suppliers and ask what the cost > ramifications are to add stiffening ribs to the cover and possibly other > surfaces. > > I did this years ago on the Trace DR chassis to give it strength, but the > idea is the same. > > I hate to suggest this, but can you epoxy some ¾” x ¾” angle iron or angle > aluminum to the inside surface of the cover? Not sure about other surfaces > as I tend to fill them up with knockouts and busbars. I suppose you could > just span some unused knockouts though. Maybe even add a couple more > mounting screws towards the center of the box. > > We would be very interested in hearing the results. > > boB says our Rosie may exhibit less noise also as it will have less > ripple. We are testing many Rosie inverters paralleled so soon will be able > to have this same configuration tested although we don’t have loads large > enough to do ten Rosie’s justice. > > I don’t want to change the enclosure to aluminum for a couple of reasons, > but we may have little choice. Aluminum would not vibrate! > > One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press > nuts instead of snail shells. Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do > well in aluminum. It is too soft. Aluminum would not vibrate from magnetic > ripple activity though. > > OK, I will ask about changing to aluminum. That would probably be less > expensive than adding stiffening ribs. > > > > Let us know how it goes. > > Then ask Ryan for a couple of free SPD’s for your trouble. > > > > Thanks, > > Robin Gudgel > > MidNite Solar > > > > > > > > > On 7/1/2023 9:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm going to first obtain access to an oscilloscope to characterize and > screenshot this phenomena, both before and after any mitigation I do. > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:46 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> >> We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue here is that >> the enclosure >> for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is ferrous. That means >> that when the >> 120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can vibrate just like a >> transformer. >> >> Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple than the newer >> HF transformer units >> but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well. >> >> This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and we haven't >> heard any complaints >> but maybe others have been silent on this. I am not surprised at all >> that this happens. >> >> Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor so when the >> whole enclosure forms >> around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in a >> transformer. It is usually just >> lossy but should vibrate much less, if at all. >> >> There are other issues in switching to aluminum that Robin mentions, here: >> >> *"One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press >> nuts instead of snail shells. * >> *Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in aluminum. It is too >> soft. Aluminum would not * >> >> >> *vibrate from magnetic ripple activity though." *He has some ideas to >> make aluminum work so we will try those. >> >> Now, plastic could work. Just has to be real thick. Darn physics ! >> >> Damping can help, like Kirk tried (more can be done here too). Keeping >> the cables >> together best as you can inside the chassis may help as well but moving >> and routing >> the cables might also reduce the buzzing some more. >> >> That's the latest buzz from here. >> >> 🌜boB🌛 >> K7IQ >> On 6/30/2023 8:45 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Ferrite cores can be used for the battery cables to pass through to >> reduce common mode current >> >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the combiner. >>> They are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for 80% >>> of their respective distance. >>> >>> The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective inverter. They >>> are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length. >>> Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present due to computer issues. >>> >>> I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no derating >>> of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be the issue. >>> >>> I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but doing it >>> from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. >>> >>> And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is willing >>> to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down the road? >>> Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Kirk >>>> As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the >>>> battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC >>>> noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine >>>> come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install >>>> configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long >>>> some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. >>>> More information may help with a solution. >>>> Fun times solar >>>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, >>>>> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. >>>>> >>>>> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, >>>>> modified to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery >>>>> inputs and inverter outputs. >>>>> >>>>> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC >>>>> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters >>>>> are automatically set to this charge rate as well. >>>>> >>>>> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible >>>>> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. >>>>> >>>>> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating >>>>> noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting >>>>> tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. >>>>> >>>>> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration >>>>> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised >>>>> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost >>>>> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not >>>>> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. >>>>> >>>>> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised >>>>> that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened >>>>> properly. Ideas? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>>> >>>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>>> >>>>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>>>> >>>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>>> >>>>> 802.863.1202 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.863.1202 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 1 18:09:26 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2023 17:09:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: <42EB10B0-B442-47DF-909D-CE96CAC17E5F@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Hi you have the correct people on the job but get at the basics the forces causing the vibration is magnetic. You have to break the magnetic path. If it was electrical a simple cut in the enclosure. But it is magnetic which is much harder to stop. If the hum stops with the cover off replace the cover with polycarbonate plastic On Sat, Jul 1, 2023, 3:17 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, > yes I read Robins email, but the class T fuses are in series only with the > large DC cable breakers (Heineman, Airpax, etc.) in the Outback GSLC. I > might be missing something, perhaps again. > > > On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 3:09 PM Robin wrote: > >> Ryan thinks it may be the classT fuses. We have a vibration issue when >> classT fuses are connected to CBI breakers. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 1, 2023, at 11:32 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >> >>  >> Hi Kirk. Did you receive the email that Robin sent to you ? >> >> You can measure things like, with your scope but you would want to look >> at the current >> from the inverter to battery. >> >> You could also use your clamp meter and look at DC and AC. >> Set it to AC to view the ripple current. >> >> I will copy/paste what Robin and Ryan sent to you and our support team >> below in case it didn't come through. >> >> 🌜boB🌛 >> >> >> >> >> On 6/30/2023 7:55 AM, ryan at midnitesolar.com wrote: >> >> Kirk, >> >> Any chance this is the Class T Fuses resonating from the PWM on the DC >> current? Feel free to give me a call would love to discuss this further >> >> >> >> 207-416-2006 >> >> >> >> *From:* robin >> *Sent:* Friday, June 30, 2023 10:47 AM >> *To:* kirkh at vermont.solar >> *Cc:* bob at midnitesolar.com; ryan >> ; James Parish >> ; todd at midnitesolar.com; Michelle Neville >> >> *Subject:* Vibrations >> >> >> >> Kirk, Although this is the first I have heard of this, boB says he isn’t >> surprised. I am copying the tech support group here in hopes we can all >> learn something. >> >> >> >> We have been shipping these boxes for about 8 years now and not a peep. >> >> boB says the ripple current is 120Hz AC and with that many amps it is not >> surprising. I will check with our metal suppliers and ask what the cost >> ramifications are to add stiffening ribs to the cover and possibly other >> surfaces. >> >> I did this years ago on the Trace DR chassis to give it strength, but the >> idea is the same. >> >> I hate to suggest this, but can you epoxy some ¾” x ¾” angle iron or >> angle aluminum to the inside surface of the cover? Not sure about other >> surfaces as I tend to fill them up with knockouts and busbars. I suppose >> you could just span some unused knockouts though. Maybe even add a couple >> more mounting screws towards the center of the box. >> >> We would be very interested in hearing the results. >> >> boB says our Rosie may exhibit less noise also as it will have less >> ripple. We are testing many Rosie inverters paralleled so soon will be able >> to have this same configuration tested although we don’t have loads large >> enough to do ten Rosie’s justice. >> >> I don’t want to change the enclosure to aluminum for a couple of reasons, >> but we may have little choice. Aluminum would not vibrate! >> >> One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press >> nuts instead of snail shells. Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do >> well in aluminum. It is too soft. Aluminum would not vibrate from magnetic >> ripple activity though. >> >> OK, I will ask about changing to aluminum. That would probably be less >> expensive than adding stiffening ribs. >> >> >> >> Let us know how it goes. >> >> Then ask Ryan for a couple of free SPD’s for your trouble. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Robin Gudgel >> >> MidNite Solar >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 7/1/2023 9:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I'm going to first obtain access to an oscilloscope to characterize and >> screenshot this phenomena, both before and after any mitigation I do. >> >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:46 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue here is >>> that the enclosure >>> for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is ferrous. That >>> means that when the >>> 120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can vibrate just like >>> a transformer. >>> >>> Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple than the >>> newer HF transformer units >>> but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well. >>> >>> This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and we haven't >>> heard any complaints >>> but maybe others have been silent on this. I am not surprised at all >>> that this happens. >>> >>> Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor so when the >>> whole enclosure forms >>> around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in a >>> transformer. It is usually just >>> lossy but should vibrate much less, if at all. >>> >>> There are other issues in switching to aluminum that Robin mentions, >>> here: >>> >>> *"One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press >>> nuts instead of snail shells. * >>> *Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in aluminum. It is >>> too soft. Aluminum would not * >>> >>> >>> *vibrate from magnetic ripple activity though." *He has some ideas to >>> make aluminum work so we will try those. >>> >>> Now, plastic could work. Just has to be real thick. Darn physics ! >>> >>> Damping can help, like Kirk tried (more can be done here too). Keeping >>> the cables >>> together best as you can inside the chassis may help as well but moving >>> and routing >>> the cables might also reduce the buzzing some more. >>> >>> That's the latest buzz from here. >>> >>> 🌜boB🌛 >>> K7IQ >>> On 6/30/2023 8:45 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Ferrite cores can be used for the battery cables to pass through to >>> reduce common mode current >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the combiner. >>>> They are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for 80% >>>> of their respective distance. >>>> >>>> The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective inverter. >>>> They are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in >>>> length. Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present due to computer >>>> issues. >>>> >>>> I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no >>>> derating of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be the issue. >>>> >>>> I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but doing it >>>> from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. >>>> >>>> And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is >>>> willing to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down the road? >>>> Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Kirk >>>>> As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the >>>>> battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC >>>>> noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine >>>>> come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install >>>>> configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long >>>>> some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. >>>>> More information may help with a solution. >>>>> Fun times solar >>>>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, >>>>>> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, >>>>>> modified to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery >>>>>> inputs and inverter outputs. >>>>>> >>>>>> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC >>>>>> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters >>>>>> are automatically set to this charge rate as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible >>>>>> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating >>>>>> noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting >>>>>> tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. >>>>>> >>>>>> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration >>>>>> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised >>>>>> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost >>>>>> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not >>>>>> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised >>>>>> that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened >>>>>> properly. Ideas? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>>>> >>>>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>>>>> >>>>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>>>> >>>>>> 802.863.1202 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>> >>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>> >>>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>>> >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> >>>> 802.863.1202 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jul 2 15:31:09 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2023 12:31:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration In-Reply-To: References: <69d19ba2-a44b-addc-8539-a32c48319d6d@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: Agree start with data so you know where go On Sat, Jul 1, 2023, 9:20 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'm going to first obtain access to an oscilloscope to characterize and > screenshot this phenomena, both before and after any mitigation I do. > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:46 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> >> >> We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue here is that >> the enclosure >> for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is ferrous. That means >> that when the >> 120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can vibrate just like a >> transformer. >> >> Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple than the newer >> HF transformer units >> but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well. >> >> This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and we haven't >> heard any complaints >> but maybe others have been silent on this. I am not surprised at all >> that this happens. >> >> Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor so when the >> whole enclosure forms >> around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in a >> transformer. It is usually just >> lossy but should vibrate much less, if at all. >> >> There are other issues in switching to aluminum that Robin mentions, here: >> >> *"One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would need to use press >> nuts instead of snail shells. * >> *Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in aluminum. It is too >> soft. Aluminum would not * >> >> >> *vibrate from magnetic ripple activity though." *He has some ideas to >> make aluminum work so we will try those. >> >> Now, plastic could work. Just has to be real thick. Darn physics ! >> >> Damping can help, like Kirk tried (more can be done here too). Keeping >> the cables >> together best as you can inside the chassis may help as well but moving >> and routing >> the cables might also reduce the buzzing some more. >> >> That's the latest buzz from here. >> >> 🌜boB🌛 >> K7IQ >> >> On 6/30/2023 8:45 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Ferrite cores can be used for the battery cables to pass through to >> reduce common mode current >> >> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32 kwh stack) into the combiner. >>> They are paired and within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for 80% >>> of their respective distance. >>> >>> The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each respective inverter. They >>> are paired (not twisted) in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length. >>> Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present due to computer issues. >>> >>> I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is in free air, no derating >>> of current required. But merely pairing the leads may be the issue. >>> >>> I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist the sets, but doing it >>> from combiner to battery cabinets is impossible. >>> >>> And I'm wondering if this is really necessary if the customer is willing >>> to live with the issue. What are the ramifications down the road? >>> Loosening of connections I suppose would be one. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Kirk >>>> As the batteries come up to charge does the vibration subside. Are the >>>> battery cables spun together "corkscrew like" l have seen this correct DC >>>> noise. I have an 8 on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at all, mine >>>> come in from each side of the battery combiner, how is your install >>>> configured, how is the cable length same close or very short to very long >>>> some length is better on FLA's due to resistance under load and charge. >>>> More information may help with a solution. >>>> Fun times solar >>>> NABCEP PV Inspector >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, >>>>> connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers. >>>>> >>>>> For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, >>>>> modified to mount class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery >>>>> inputs and inverter outputs. >>>>> >>>>> For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC >>>>> amps, which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters >>>>> are automatically set to this charge rate as well. >>>>> >>>>> Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible >>>>> vibration from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. >>>>> >>>>> So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating >>>>> noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting >>>>> tight. But the The box itself is also vibrating by feel. >>>>> >>>>> I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration >>>>> definitely increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised >>>>> because after all, we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost >>>>> reminds me of a large AC transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not >>>>> seem to be originating at the inverters, then resonating to the combiner. >>>>> >>>>> I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised >>>>> that this is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened >>>>> properly. Ideas? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>>>> >>>>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>>>> >>>>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>>>> >>>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>>> >>>>> 802.863.1202 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.863.1202 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 3 15:42:43 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 15:42:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations Message-ID: Hi All, I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator for charging. The solution for this pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC charge amperage just enough so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable inconsequential level. And that worked in this case as well. However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has now become fairly intolerable. To my knowledge, no settings changes we made within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make any changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating has started to happen at seemingly random times not related to charging. It happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the generator, or during the afternoons with solar charging. And it is getting progressively worse. Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now? Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 3 19:09:03 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2023 16:09:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers? Are there any loads failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ right. Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms. Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor. Are there any faults, warnings or events ? Check history. There are a few settings in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning strike. XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a visual. There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on. Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes. If that does not work, then a reset to factory values. This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and why it would be getting worse without visual evidence. Good Luck Howie! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a > Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the > batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher > side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled > with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to > symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator for charging. > The solution for this pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC > charge amperage just enough so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable > inconsequential level. And that worked in this case as well. > However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has > now become fairly intolerable. To my knowledge, no settings changes we > made within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make > any changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating > has started to happen at seemingly random times not related to > charging. It happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the > generator, or during the afternoons with solar charging. And it is > getting progressively worse. > Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now? > > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Jul 3 19:41:17 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 17:41:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius PRIMO 5100 In-Reply-To: <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> References: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <009701d9ae07$dd069320$9713b960$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Anybody got one of these, or know where I can get one? Please contact me off list. Have a happy and safe 4th! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 3 19:59:54 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2023 17:59:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It could be the LED bulbs.  I've had different brands flicker like crazy on grid and off.  Seems to relate to other loads that are on, especially stuff like washing machines with VFD drives, and well pumps.   Add dimmers and it can get even worse. IMHO, they really need to improve the quality of the driver circuits on the LED bulbs.  Only gets worse on a less than perfect AC waveform. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 7/3/2023 5:09 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a > few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC > voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are > all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any > loads failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? > Rock solid 60 HZ right. > Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms. > Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor. Are there > any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few > settings in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or > nearby lightning strike. > XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a visual. > There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right > side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. > While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both > LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on. > Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 > minutes.  If that does not work, then a reset to factory values. > This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined > with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of > weirdness and why it would be getting worse without visual evidence. > Good Luck Howie! > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text > 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hi All, >> I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a >> Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the >> batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the >> higher side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC >> coupled with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights >> similar to symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator >> for charging. The solution for this pulsation has usually been to >> kick back the AC charge amperage just enough so the pulsating calmed >> down to a tolerable inconsequential level.  And that worked in this >> case as well. >> However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and >> has now become fairly intolerable.  To my knowledge, no settings >> changes we made within the previous year, and these clients would be >> loath to make any changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling >> is the pulsating has started to happen at seemingly random times not >> related to charging.  It happens at night or pre-dawn mornings >> without the generator, or during the afternoons with solar charging. >> And it is getting progressively worse. >> Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now? >> Howie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Jul 5 09:33:17 2023 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 09:33:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] evacuated solar tubes Message-ID: G'day All, I managed to get myself pulled into an evacuated solar hot water system installed by others. The client is trying to get it reinstated. My question to the community is do you put any kind of high temperature lube on the probe end of the evacuated tube that inserts into the water manifold and if so what do you suggest? I've attached a picture of the tube probe. I believe these are Sunda tubes. Thanks much, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DSCN2113.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 225697 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jul 5 09:45:09 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 07:45:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] evacuated solar tubes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Jul 5 10:05:04 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 10:05:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge and Schneider Conext Message-ID: Hi all, Had anyone successfully established communications between a SolarEdge single phase inverter and a Schneider Gateway? I have a client with a battery backup system which included a dual stack of XW pros and 2 AC coupled SolarEdge inverters. He would really like to be able to use one monitoring site to see all the equipment. Right now, the SolarEdge inverters are invisible on the Insight cloud or local sites, with net production magically appearing from the house loads. Any ideas or there? Thanks, Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jul 5 16:50:09 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2023 16:50:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snapnrack end caps Message-ID: <1d3b2bac1c5cff727c947954433ddd92@redwoodalliance.org> Hello All, We have had a lot of end caps fall off Snapnrack Ultra Rail. Kevin at S&R was wondering if this is a common occurrence. Is it something we are doing, is it freezing and thawing or is it the design of the caps. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Jul 5 18:13:57 2023 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 16:13:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snapnrack end caps In-Reply-To: <1d3b2bac1c5cff727c947954433ddd92@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1d3b2bac1c5cff727c947954433ddd92@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: > ...Kevin at S&R was wondering if this is a common occurrence. Is it > something we are doing, is it freezing and thawing or is it the design of > the caps. > Can confirm. We receive email from customers on the regular that these are popping off. I haven't attempted to draw a correlation between when the systems were installed and the effect of freeze/thaw but that was the assumption I've made. - Sam > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Wed Jul 5 18:25:14 2023 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 17:25:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snapnrack end caps In-Reply-To: <1d3b2bac1c5cff727c947954433ddd92@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1d3b2bac1c5cff727c947954433ddd92@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake, I can confirm. The design could be improved. I’ve noticed that end caps on rails that are flush or a fraction of an inch shorter than the panel frame lose the end caps at a higher rate than when the rail sticks past the module frame. My guess is that module movement from expansion/contraction is popping them off. Best, Garrison Riegel Celestar Solar LLC > On Jul 5, 2023, at 3:51 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello All, > > We have had a lot of end caps fall off Snapnrack Ultra Rail. Kevin at S&R was wondering if this is a common occurrence. Is it something we are doing, is it freezing and thawing or is it the design of the caps. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 5 19:01:11 2023 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (No Name) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 23:01:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] evacuated solar tubes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good day Wrenches (Joe Nelson here) Dan's correct, a Zinc Oxide layer of lube on the "bulb" will keep it from sieze-welding to the "socket". . I did mostly Apricus gear for Evac-tube installs, but any/every manufacturer I've seen uses some sort of anti-sieze for their heat-pipes. . I could not find Apricus' product on their website. .Loctite does make a high temp version (LB 8036) that looks perfectly appropriate, but you'd want your manufacturer blessing if possible. Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2023 6:45:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dana Orzel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] evacuated solar tubes Yes, it’s called zinc oxide just like sunblock but it’s pure zinc oxide Dana Orzel C: 208.721.7003 E- dana at solarwork.com On Jul 5, 2023, at 7:34 AM, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote:  G'day All, I managed to get myself pulled into an evacuated solar hot water system installed by others. The client is trying to get it reinstated. My question to the community is do you put any kind of high temperature lube on the probe end of the evacuated tube that inserts into the water manifold and if so what do you suggest? I've attached a picture of the tube probe. I believe these are Sunda tubes. Thanks much, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zwIEzRtOZdJBisBPW2ba9BZwLKpocRcDBtPtw_dLzSM8MNthtmnA5rIuBZ_I3mSXj7FKHtwYk] Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4x-VMx3KNrBUjGRGaM4iKmHJ8KxC99V1SUtUEwox6UqTgarqNFHzUcmy9RMxD2D0BZ_64Nrd2s] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jul 6 01:04:33 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2023 22:04:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing strings with Tigo Message-ID: Friends: We are in the midst of our first off-grid, DC coupled project using Tigo TS4-A-F RSS switches. In my few years installing solar I am accustomed to testing PV strings with a Fluke 87 for Voc, Isc, Vmp and Imp, or some combination. I do this regularly in the midst of installing PV so I can be confident once we are finished there will be no issues with the panels or the wiring. I understand these tests are not possible with the Tigo units. With the circuits unterminated, I can see the 0.6 VDC/Tigo with no keep-alive signal transmitted. With the signal being transmitted, I do not see the expected readings for Voc. I get only the 0.6/Tigo. When shorted into the Fluke DC input the Isc jumps around between 0 and about 2 amps. I was told by tech support the PV circuits need to be “terminated” at an inverter before any voltage or current can be measured. The circuits do not terminate in an inverter; they will connect to a charge controller (FM100, in this case). We have not pulled the PV feeders so connecting to the charge controllers is not yet possible. I am nervous about installing the remainder of the modules without knowing for certain they will produce as they should. What would you all do to assure yourselves the PV will produce once connected? TIA. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jul 6 10:05:43 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 10:05:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing strings with Tigo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, I recently installed these connected to an FM100, and also on a couple grid tied systems in the past year. I think that as long as you are getting the expected 0.6V per module you know that everything is connected as it should be. Unfortunately I do not think that you will be able to do your other tests until the strings are terminated at the charge controller with the transmitter sending the keep alive signal. But then you can open up the fuses/breakers in your combiner to test strings one at a time. And once the system is running, you can obviously check that your strings have the same Vmp/Imp. If this is your first TS4-A-F installation, then some of it is just that, yes, these things do work when installed correctly. Hope this helps. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 1:12 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > We are in the midst of our first off-grid, DC coupled project using Tigo > TS4-A-F RSS switches. > > > > In my few years installing solar I am accustomed to testing PV strings > with a Fluke 87 for Voc, Isc, Vmp and Imp, or some combination. I do this > regularly in the midst of installing PV so I can be confident once we are > finished there will be no issues with the panels or the wiring. > > > > I understand these tests are not possible with the Tigo units. With the > circuits unterminated, I can see the 0.6 VDC/Tigo with no keep-alive signal > transmitted. With the signal being transmitted, I do not see the expected > readings for Voc. I get only the 0.6/Tigo. When shorted into the Fluke DC > input the Isc jumps around between 0 and about 2 amps. > > > > I was told by tech support the PV circuits need to be “terminated” at an > inverter before any voltage or current can be measured. The circuits do > not terminate in an inverter; they will connect to a charge controller > (FM100, in this case). > > > > We have not pulled the PV feeders so connecting to the charge controllers > is not yet possible. I am nervous about installing the remainder of the > modules without knowing for certain they will produce as they should. > > > > What would you all do to assure yourselves the PV will produce once > connected? > > > > TIA. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Jul 6 13:07:30 2023 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 10:07:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Testing strings with Tigo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FF91ED4-E5A3-42B2-AAE9-9DEBD76D0499@me.com> Good morning William, Yes there are a couple new things to learn when working with these RS units. I’ve done a few now, the most recent three with the same controllers as you and Dave. I am assuming the wording about being terminated at the inverter can also be understood as having landed the conductors inside the GSLC on the appropriate bus bars and 300v breakers. If you’re using Tigo’s AC to 12vdc converter then of course the inverter must be operational to produce the AC source to energize the converter so perhaps that’s why they want it landed at the inverter since they don’t really promote the use of a DC to DC converter. I use a 48 VDC to 12VDC converter so the keep alive signal doesn’t rely on the inverter being on so as long as I’ve got the battery bank assembled it allows me to do all the appropriate testing at the array. One major thing to know is that you don’t want to operate with a partial amount of your strings energized while you work on the others. I (used to in the past) often do this at off grid sites so their continuity of power service is least interrupted and to negate the need to use a fossil fuel based power source. Apparently the TS4 units “learn” the sum of all the paralleled string resistances together so if trying to add additional strings later you may have individual units lock up and not push any power. I’ve had this happen twice where the .6vdc unit expected sums added up but don’t actually pass the array voltage from the two modules out of the affected TS4-2. For example, 3 x TS4-2 units with six modules yet only seeing the expected VOC out of four modules. Each time this occurred it was with the TS4-2 varieties and would happen on the first strings commissioned whereas the newest strings would pass the expected string voltage. Their helpful tech’s suggested power cycling the converter along with transmitter however after multiple attempts I’ve still had this not remedy the situation on one of the projects and required me to swap out the TS4-2 in question. Quite a drag when you’ve already got your cable management all wrapped up and thinking you’re done on a 12/12 roof. Since they’re so inexpensive I held on to affected unit so I can try to recreate this issue on a mock up system. Perhaps they can be “unbricked” if they are the single recipient of the transmitter's output, we’ll see. Looks like we’re going to be stuck with this equipment for awhile so I figure it’s worth playing with at home. The other thing I observed is that when you initiate a rapid shutdown command the FM100’s see it as an arc fault. Again, have had this happen twice however each time a complete power down on the FM100’s cleared it. Earlier FM100’s failed for me frequently so now anytime I need to power down an FM100 anymore I cross my fingers it will come back. So far so good with this particular arc fault scenario and seems like the FM100’s are generally quite more reliable than they were during that painfully long period of Outback woes. As Jerry always says “fun times”. Stay cool up on that roof, Nick > On Jul 5, 2023, at 10:04 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > We are in the midst of our first off-grid, DC coupled project using Tigo TS4-A-F RSS switches. > > In my few years installing solar I am accustomed to testing PV strings with a Fluke 87 for Voc, Isc, Vmp and Imp, or some combination. I do this regularly in the midst of installing PV so I can be confident once we are finished there will be no issues with the panels or the wiring. > > I understand these tests are not possible with the Tigo units. With the circuits unterminated, I can see the 0.6 VDC/Tigo with no keep-alive signal transmitted. With the signal being transmitted, I do not see the expected readings for Voc. I get only the 0.6/Tigo. When shorted into the Fluke DC input the Isc jumps around between 0 and about 2 amps. > > I was told by tech support the PV circuits need to be “terminated” at an inverter before any voltage or current can be measured. The circuits do not terminate in an inverter; they will connect to a charge controller (FM100, in this case). > > We have not pulled the PV feeders so connecting to the charge controllers is not yet possible. I am nervous about installing the remainder of the modules without knowing for certain they will produce as they should. > > What would you all do to assure yourselves the PV will produce once connected? > > TIA. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jul 6 13:25:39 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 11:25:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pro Power saving device Message-ID: <4a3d7d57-bc61-bbaa-caf3-7785c0ed6be9@solarwork.com> Hey all you mighty Wise Folks! I have an off grid client that sent me a adv. for this device. propowersaver.com Does anyone know what this does? Does It work? How does it work? -- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Jul 6 13:35:14 2023 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 10:35:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pro Power saving device In-Reply-To: <4a3d7d57-bc61-bbaa-caf3-7785c0ed6be9@solarwork.com> References: <4a3d7d57-bc61-bbaa-caf3-7785c0ed6be9@solarwork.com> Message-ID: It’s a subsidiary of CitizenRE. If you strap a crystal on it with a rubber bank it apparently amplifies it’s output to almost completely erase your power bill. The flat earth community swears by them. Nick > On Jul 6, 2023, at 10:25 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey all you mighty Wise Folks! > > I have an off grid client that sent me a adv. for this device. > > propowersaver.com > > Does anyone know what this does? > > Does It work? > > How does it work? > > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Jul 6 14:25:17 2023 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 12:25:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pro Power saving device In-Reply-To: <4a3d7d57-bc61-bbaa-caf3-7785c0ed6be9@solarwork.com> References: <4a3d7d57-bc61-bbaa-caf3-7785c0ed6be9@solarwork.com> Message-ID: It's supposed to adjust power factor for the home loads with a teeny tiny capacitor in the overpriced plug-in box. While power factor correction can be done at large scale with big banks of switched capacitors and PF sensing system (cost of $30k+, only for large facilities) , this is ludicrous for home-scale loads with no sensing system. These are 100% a scam. I am very proud of getting one of these dealers getting kicked out of a prominent renewable energy event a few years back. Snake oil has no place in our business model! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 11:25 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey all you mighty Wise Folks! > > I have an off grid client that sent me a adv. for this device. > > propowersaver.com > > Does anyone know what this does? > > Does It work? > > How does it work? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 6 14:29:53 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 12:29:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pro Power saving device In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jul 6 17:54:08 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2023 17:54:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pro Power saving device In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These were so aggressively marketed around here a while back. I had to write multiple articles about them to explain why our competitors were scamming people. They were marketing them as "KVAR" devices for a while. https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/energy-saving-devices/ Ultimately I would just tell people - if a $50 device could save you thousands, why isn't there one on every home in America? That's when the lightbulb would eventually go off. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 2:31 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > And even if it did power factor correction most residential customers are > not charged for power factor. Zero savings. > > On Jul 6, 2023, at 12:27 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > It's supposed to adjust power factor for the home loads with a teeny tiny > capacitor in the overpriced plug-in box. While power factor correction can > be done at large scale with big banks of switched capacitors and PF sensing > system (cost of $30k+, only for large facilities) , this is ludicrous for > home-scale loads with no sensing system. These are 100% a scam. I am very > proud of getting one of these dealers getting kicked out of a prominent > renewable energy event a few years back. Snake oil has no place in our > business model! > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 11:25 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey all you mighty Wise Folks! >> >> I have an off grid client that sent me a adv. for this device. >> >> propowersaver.com >> >> Does anyone know what this does? >> >> Does It work? >> >> How does it work? >> -- >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for >> Responsible People since 1988" >> _______________________________________________ >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Jul 10 11:54:40 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2023 09:54:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius PRIMO 6.0-1 In-Reply-To: <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> References: <1678809784.27862524@webmail.finestplanet.com> <1682eaa8-14e5-dd41-f5d9-9c8c9a86fc7c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <005901d9b346$d6b0bd90$841238b0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi Folks: I’m looking for a Fronius PRIMO 6.0-1 inverter; used but in good working order would be OK too. If you have access to one, please contact me off list. THANKS. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 11 20:19:09 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 18:19:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things running again. I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system. Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system. Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. Thanks for your input! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Jul 11 21:14:28 2023 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2023 18:14:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac, I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a > quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of > Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go > high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he > occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things > running again. > > I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter > on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a > chance to recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to > see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial > load on the system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may > be better. > > Thanks for your input! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 12 09:13:53 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 09:13:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was searching the forums for information on Peimar modules and this is all that came up. Does anyone have any experience with recently produced PERC modules from them? They are being offered through my distribution network at an attractive price, but I am a bit skeptical. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:38 PM Luke Christy wrote: > Ray, > I just saw the same sort of thing on 2-year-old Peimar modules. In my > case, there were visible hot spots that had burned through the backsheet in > several places on several modules. In some places it was just small > blisters, in others there was a clearly melted area of the backsheet. The > hot spots seemed clearly associated with the cells that had cracks, but > they were always at the edges and corners of cells. Unfortunately I did not > have access to an IR camera to view them under load in the sun. > > The manufacturer replaced them under warranty, but I’m not pleased with > these modules at all. > > > -Luke Christy > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: > > > > Solar Gain Services, LLC > PO Box 531 > Monte Vista, CO. 81144 > SGSRenewables at Gmail.com > 719.588.3044 > www.sgsrenewables.com > > > Hi All; >> >> I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears to >> be cracks in cells under the glass. The glass is not damaged. These are >> Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty. Has anyone seen this, and >> are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry >> about? An Infrared camera did not show any issues. >> >> As always your invaluable input is always appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > <20171012_134319.jpg>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Jul 12 09:28:01 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 06:28:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com Wed Jul 12 16:30:23 2023 From: rebecca.lundberg at gmail.com (Rebecca Lundberg) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 14:30:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof-mounted j-box Message-ID: What's currently your best long-lasting and safe solution/product(s) for transitioning from PV wire to wire in conduit on a residential pitched roof? The system I have in mind is on a 6/12 metal roof, in case that matters. Thanks in advance! Rebecca Lundberg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jul 12 17:03:00 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 17:03:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof-mounted j-box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't speak to longevity since it just came out, but EZ Solar just came out with a pretty interesting rail-mounted j-box option that clamps to the rails with hose clamps. It sounds strange at first, but in practice I found the samples to work very well. Check out their JB-3 model. https://ezsolarproducts.com/jb-3/ We have had good success with their JB-1 and JB-2 boxes for shingle and tile roofs, respectively. I can attest from lengthy experience in solar pool heating that stainless steel hose clamps hold up very well in pressure pipe applications on roofs. I can't see why they wouldn't work in this application. I wonder about the grounding of all metallic parts and if an inspector might ding you for the hose clamps, but I think that would be a stretch to cite that as a code violation or a safety issue. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Wed, Jul 12, 2023 at 4:32 PM Rebecca Lundberg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What's currently your best long-lasting and safe solution/product(s) for > transitioning from PV wire to wire in conduit on a residential pitched > roof? The system I have in mind is on a 6/12 metal roof, in case that > matters. Thanks in advance! > > Rebecca Lundberg > _______________________________________________ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Jul 12 17:26:25 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 15:26:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate3SL = no web monitor due to a chip shortage Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ Is the Mate3S in short supply for mid to late 2023? I see there's a "Lite" version with no internet capability--but are enough projects buying the Lite so those who want the full version can still get it from inventory? Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Jul 12 17:31:51 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 16:31:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roof-mounted j-box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On exposed fastener metal, I have had good results with a cord grip connector through the roof to a 4 square metal junction box flat up against the bottom of the metal roof panel in the attic. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Wed, Jul 12, 2023, 3:31 PM Rebecca Lundberg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What's currently your best long-lasting and safe solution/product(s) for > transitioning from PV wire to wire in conduit on a residential pitched > roof? The system I have in mind is on a 6/12 metal roof, in case that > matters. Thanks in advance! > > Rebecca Lundberg > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Jul 12 17:34:08 2023 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2023 14:34:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate3SL = no web monitor due to a chip shortage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B786960-6BEB-4C5E-BB0A-1C99C149C058@me.com> Just ordered one so I’m quite certain they are starting to be available again. That’s what I believe to be the case with Zonna anyway. Additionally, I was told by an Outback technician a couple months ago that once the supply chain issues are dealt with they will upgrade any of the Lite versions to the full “S" version at no cost. Nick > On Jul 12, 2023, at 2:26 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi, Mechanix~ Is the Mate3S in short supply for mid to late 2023? I see there's a "Lite" version with no internet capability--but are enough projects buying the Lite so those who want the full version can still get it from inventory? > > Thanks in advance; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 13 12:29:30 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 10:29:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac; I've used the aux control on charge controllers to turn on/off the FX inverters, just as you planned.  Works fine, and solves the LBCO programming issue. Now, if someone from the manufacturing side could PLEASE explain why they limited the LBCO on all these inverter models. Absolutely makes no sense.  Schneider, Outback, even Magnum is too low.......? Ray Walters On 7/11/2023 6:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a > quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of > Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go > high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he > occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things > running again. > > I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter > on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a > chance to recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to > see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial > load on the system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may > be better. > > Thanks for your input! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jul 13 12:41:43 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 09:41:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They did not anticipate the use with Lithium battery chemistry which is mostly discharged at 12.7V, and that happens to be the fully charged resting voltage of lead batteries. Seems as though by now manufacturers should have increased the LBCO voltage range in the software. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 13, 2023, at 9:29 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Mac; I've used the aux control on charge controllers to turn on/off the FX inverters, just as you planned. Works fine, and solves the LBCO programming issue. Now, if someone from the manufacturing side could PLEASE explain why they limited the LBCO on all these inverter models. Absolutely makes no sense. Schneider, Outback, even Magnum is too low.......? Ray Walters On 7/11/2023 6:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things running again. > > I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system. Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system. Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. > > Thanks for your input! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 18:19:58 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:19:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation Message-ID: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Hi all I’m Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback equipment. That could change but probably not. Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. Blue planet is just too expensive. And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. Any comments about why they say that? Do others say rhat? Thanks in advance Jay From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Jul 13 19:11:56 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 19:11:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002901d9b5df$6c3557f0$44a007d0$@mindspring.com> Jay You may want to look at the EG4's. Have been using them for several years and they have been great. They just brought out a comms hub that could help you. Their racks are great as well. $$ is good, especially compared to Fortress and the other. Take a look Thx Peter Giroux American Solar -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 6:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation Hi all I’m Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback equipment. That could change but probably not. Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. Blue planet is just too expensive. And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. Any comments about why they say that? Do others say rhat? Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 19:12:26 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:12:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: If they are going to spend that kind of money, ditch OB. I've never had an Outback system, going all the way back, that didn't puke prematurely and have issues. Discover AES and Schneider for the win. Once they are set up, they just work. On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > I’m > Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. > System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback > equipment. That could change but probably not. > Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. > > So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. > Blue planet is just too expensive. > > And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This > goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. > Any comments about why they say that? > Do others say rhat? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 19:15:23 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:15:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: Guarantee you EG4 won't be around in 5 years. Their retailers like Signature and Sovereign Solar are a joke. Bet you they won't be around long either. I think you will find more bad experiences than good. On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 4:12 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: > If they are going to spend that kind of money, ditch OB. I've never had an > Outback system, going all the way back, that didn't puke prematurely and > have issues. Discover AES and Schneider for the win. Once they are set up, > they just work. > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> I’m >> Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. >> System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback >> equipment. That could change but probably not. >> Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. >> >> So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. >> Blue planet is just too expensive. >> >> And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This >> goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. >> Any comments about why they say that? >> Do others say rhat? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 19:26:10 2023 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:26:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, We've installed about 400k's worth of Atlas LiFePo4 "Powerwalls" and "powertowers" over the past two years, many on Outback systems. They're located in Utah and the owner picks up the phone most of the time when I call. They're growing and determined to do it right as they do from what I've seen so far. http://www.atlaspowersolutions.com/ Daryl On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 3:21 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > I’m > Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. > System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback > equipment. That could change but probably not. > Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. > > So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. > Blue planet is just too expensive. > > And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This > goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. > Any comments about why they say that? > Do others say rhat? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adirondackbattery at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 20:14:09 2023 From: adirondackbattery at gmail.com (Amanda Potter) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 20:14:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012AC95A-4189-4D73-8C3D-659593B0068D@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 20:40:30 2023 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:40:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <012AC95A-4189-4D73-8C3D-659593B0068D@gmail.com> References: <012AC95A-4189-4D73-8C3D-659593B0068D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I believe(but am not sure) that it was about their inverters and SolArks being made by the same manufacturer. Their batteries had nothing to do with it and while we have had multiple problems with Fortress and other high priced LiFePo batteries with the same warranties and expected life cycles , Atlas continues to provide a very reliable product with very good customer support, when needed. Trying to get tech support from other manufacturers, especially when the installer is on site, can be exhausting and futile. Not so with the few times we've needed support from Atlas. Just my experience, Daryl On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 5:14 PM Amanda Potter via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Didn’t they just lose the lawsuit against them from Sol-Ark? > > Amanda Potter > Energy Storage Specialist > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > Adirondack Battery & Solar, LLC > Potsdam, NY > (315) 212-2114 Call/ Text > > On Jul 13, 2023, at 7:26 PM, Daryl DeJoy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi Jay, > We've installed about 400k's worth of Atlas LiFePo4 "Powerwalls" and > "powertowers" over the past two years, many on Outback systems. > They're located in Utah and the owner picks up the phone most of the > time when I call. They're growing and determined to do it right as they do > from what I've seen so far. > http://www.atlaspowersolutions.com/ > > Daryl > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 3:21 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> I’m >> Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. >> System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback >> equipment. That could change but probably not. >> Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. >> >> So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. >> Blue planet is just too expensive. >> >> And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This >> goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. >> Any comments about why they say that? >> Do others say rhat? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 22:34:23 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 19:34:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay Fortress is a good solution, blueplanet is a great battery also, both have been around long enough. So many manufacturers talk the big warranty but don't have time in the field to support what they say. I ran a lab testing batteries and saw some impossible warranties. Fun times On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 3:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > I’m > Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. > System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback > equipment. That could change but probably not. > Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. > > So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. > Blue planet is just too expensive. > > And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This > goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. > Any comments about why they say that? > Do others say rhat? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Thu Jul 13 23:44:32 2023 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 20:44:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: Keep in mind the Fortress eVault is a 500 lb beast. Our installers complained about it and we've moved to smaller, rack-mount units and are currently testing the HomeGrid Stack'd in various configurations. *Eric Smiley,* Design Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 19:34, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay > Fortress is a good solution, blueplanet is a great battery also, both have > been around long enough. So many manufacturers talk the big warranty but > don't have time in the field to support what they say. I ran a lab testing > batteries and saw some impossible warranties. > Fun times > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 3:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> I’m >> Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. >> System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback >> equipment. That could change but probably not. >> Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. >> >> So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. >> Blue planet is just too expensive. >> >> And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This >> goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. >> Any comments about why they say that? >> Do others say rhat? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jul 13 23:58:43 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 20:58:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: Fortress can be disassembled and moved easily, blue planet comes in seperate parts and can be purchased in 8, 12 or 16 kWhrs and both have a cabinet and BMS Included Fun times On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 8:45 PM Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Keep in mind the Fortress eVault is a 500 lb beast. Our installers > complained about it and we've moved to smaller, rack-mount units and are > currently testing the HomeGrid Stack'd in various configurations. > > > *Eric Smiley,* Design Manager > eric at vecoop.ca > T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> > T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> > *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * > > * * > > > On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 19:34, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jay >> Fortress is a good solution, blueplanet is a great battery also, both >> have been around long enough. So many manufacturers talk the big warranty >> but don't have time in the field to support what they say. I ran a lab >> testing batteries and saw some impossible warranties. >> Fun times >> >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 3:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I’m >>> Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. >>> System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback >>> equipment. That could change but probably not. >>> Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. >>> >>> So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. >>> Blue planet is just too expensive. >>> >>> And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This >>> goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. >>> Any comments about why they say that? >>> Do others say rhat? >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarwks at cybermesa.com Fri Jul 14 00:34:42 2023 From: solarwks at cybermesa.com (Carl Hansen) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 22:34:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <002901d9b5df$6c3557f0$44a007d0$@mindspring.com> References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> <002901d9b5df$6c3557f0$44a007d0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <94b7ef7c-a4a8-949b-1659-09cc4c80e350@cybermesa.com>  Peter,   I've also installed a few EG4 rack battery systems, they are working out well, tech support is easy to reach, not problems so far, customers like the price point. Standard 10 year warranty, company seems pretty solid, easy to communicate with.  Carl Hansen  Hansen&Sun Electric On 7/13/2023 5:11 PM, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay > > You may want to look at the EG4's. Have been using them for several years and they have been great. They just brought out a comms hub that could help you. Their racks are great as well. $$ is good, especially compared to Fortress and the other. > > Take a look > > Thx > Peter Giroux > American Solar > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 6:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jay > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation > > Hi all > > I’m > Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. > System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback equipment. That could change but probably not. > Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. > > So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. > Blue planet is just too expensive. > > And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. > Any comments about why they say that? > Do others say rhat? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Jul 14 01:11:22 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 22:11:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <94b7ef7c-a4a8-949b-1659-09cc4c80e350@cybermesa.com> References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> <002901d9b5df$6c3557f0$44a007d0$@mindspring.com> <94b7ef7c-a4a8-949b-1659-09cc4c80e350@cybermesa.com> Message-ID: SimpliPhi has given me zero problems over about a dozen systems. so far I have only used the 3.8kWh units that are not capable of closed loop communication. On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 9:34 PM Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Peter, > > I've also installed a few EG4 rack battery systems, they are working > out well, tech support is easy to reach, not problems so far, customers > like the price point. Standard 10 year warranty, company seems pretty > solid, easy to communicate with. > > Carl Hansen > > Hansen&Sun Electric > > On 7/13/2023 5:11 PM, Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay > > > > You may want to look at the EG4's. Have been using them for several > years and they have been great. They just brought out a comms hub that > could help you. Their racks are great as well. $$ is good, especially > compared to Fortress and the other. > > > > Take a look > > > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Jay via RE-wrenches > > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 6:20 PM > > To: RE-wrenches > > Cc: Jay > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation > > > > Hi all > > > > I’m > > Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. > > System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback > equipment. That could change but probably not. > > Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. > > > > So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. > > Blue planet is just too expensive. > > > > And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This > goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. > > Any comments about why they say that? > > Do others say rhat? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Fri Jul 14 10:42:52 2023 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:42:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: I’d also look at Victron. They can close loop communicate with several battery systems, and my sources say they’ve also got an EV charger that works with their off-grid systems that can be programmed to charge the EV when you have excess solar. Kienan Maxfield, who’s on the list, is distributing Victron products, and he knows the technology well. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 7:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. If they are going to spend that kind of money, ditch OB. I've never had an Outback system, going all the way back, that didn't puke prematurely and have issues. Discover AES and Schneider for the win. Once they are set up, they just work. On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:20 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi all I’m Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback equipment. That could change but probably not. Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. Blue planet is just too expensive. And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. Any comments about why they say that? Do others say rhat? Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4xkNeAOHZC3SDnZTmnhgML4JHyGwi0PdmG_TrSHASBRfwJtZqGi7vknpXAngaaiawfnr5xCF1Y] ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Fri Jul 14 14:51:11 2023 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 11:51:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18955be246f.f81737c8602315.2305146783161658493@greenwired.com> Jay we have been doing a few of these Pytes they seem like a upgrade from the EG4s, better manuals and integration guides and I can get them from NAZ instead of SignatureSolar. Only real issue so far is they have a special terminal on them so they come with these little jumpers. https://www.solar-electric.com/pytes-e-box-48100r-5-12kwh-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery.html Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 15:19:58 -0700 Jay via RE-wrenches wrote --- Hi all I’m Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback equipment. That could change but probably not. Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. Blue planet is just too expensive. And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. Any comments about why they say that? Do others say rhat? Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 14 14:58:19 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 12:58:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXTERNAL] Re: Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D120637-81AC-4495-8E89-A0E3FF31C408@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 14 15:11:44 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:11:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: <18955be246f.f81737c8602315.2305146783161658493@greenwired.com> References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> <18955be246f.f81737c8602315.2305146783161658493@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Yes the pytes are good price, I had problems and no tech support On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 1:51 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay we have been doing a few of these Pytes they seem like a upgrade from > the EG4s, better manuals and integration guides and I can get them from NAZ > instead of SignatureSolar. > > Only real issue so far is they have a special terminal on them so they > come with these little jumpers. > > > https://www.solar-electric.com/pytes-e-box-48100r-5-12kwh-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery.html > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > Store Manager/Service Tech​ > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > > *Leave us a review!* > > > > > > > ---- On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 15:19:58 -0700 *Jay via RE-wrenches > >* > wrote --- > > Hi all > > I’m > Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. > System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback > equipment. That could change but probably not. > Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. > > So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. > Blue planet is just too expensive. > > And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This > goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. > Any comments about why they say that? > Do others say rhat? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 14 15:28:45 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:28:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> <18955be246f.f81737c8602315.2305146783161658493@greenwired.com> Message-ID: I have one of four one alarm locked no tech support On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 2:11 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > Yes the pytes are good price, I had problems and no tech support > > On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 1:51 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jay we have been doing a few of these Pytes they seem like a upgrade from >> the EG4s, better manuals and integration guides and I can get them from NAZ >> instead of SignatureSolar. >> >> Only real issue so far is they have a special terminal on them so they >> come with these little jumpers. >> >> >> https://www.solar-electric.com/pytes-e-box-48100r-5-12kwh-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery.html >> >> Andrew Perkins >> >> Greenwired >> Store Manager/Service Tech​ >> >> P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 >> >> 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd >> >> Redway, CA 95560 >> www.greenwired.com >> >> >> *Leave us a review!* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 15:19:58 -0700 *Jay via RE-wrenches >> >* >> wrote --- >> >> Hi all >> >> I’m >> Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. >> System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback >> equipment. That could change but probably not. >> Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. >> >> So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. >> Blue planet is just too expensive. >> >> And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This >> goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. >> Any comments about why they say that? >> Do others say rhat? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Fri Jul 14 17:06:23 2023 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:06:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <7691D8B2-3A4A-4EA3-8BA8-A1A4DF48F679@gmail.com> <18955be246f.f81737c8602315.2305146783161658493@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <1895639ec0f.e2def754632649.4219380123115909296@greenwired.com> Issues with Pytes or EG4? I had problems with EG4 and it took over a month for tech support to get back to me.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 12:28:45 -0700 Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote --- I have one of four one alarm locked no tech support  On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 2:11 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: Yes the pytes are good price, I had problems and no tech support  On Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 1:51 PM Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches wrote: Jay we have been doing a few of these Pytes they seem like a upgrade from the EG4s, better manuals and integration guides and I can get them from NAZ instead of SignatureSolar. Only real issue so far is they have a special terminal on them so they come with these little jumpers. https://www.solar-electric.com/pytes-e-box-48100r-5-12kwh-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery.html Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 15:19:58 -0700 Jay via RE-wrenches wrote --- Hi all I’m Looking for recommendations for a lithium battery. 48v. 150-200 kWh. System is probably going to be open comm, as the system has outback equipment. That could change but probably not. Remote monitoring is required even though it is a site with people 24/7. So far fortress and home grid. Have been recommended to look at. Blue planet is just too expensive. And PS. Fortress says that you cannot add batteries after 1 year. This goes against everything I thought I understood about lithium. Any comments about why they say that? Do others say rhat? Thanks in advance Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Jul 16 17:58:40 2023 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 14:58:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells Message-ID: Found some damage to a customer's Grape CS-S-180-DJ PV modules this morning. Unlike anything I've ever seen; so I'm hoping that someone on this list can tell me the cause. I've put several photos of the cells online so you can inspect them. While it looks like there has been some localized heating on the traces, there isn't any evidence of damage on the rear of the PV modules. These are on an off grid system charging some 12-volt batteries. Thanks. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jul 16 18:06:34 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 15:06:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kent, How is output and how old are the panels? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-07-16 2:58 pm, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > Found some damage to a customer's Grape CS-S-180-DJ PV modules this > morning. Unlike anything I've ever seen; so I'm hoping that someone on > this list can tell me the cause. I've put several photos of the cells > online [1] so you can inspect them. While it looks like there has been > some localized heating on the traces, there isn't any evidence of > damage on the rear of the PV modules. These are on an off grid system > charging some 12-volt batteries. Thanks. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nQhTqahEx4whmmWyy89tqaEEGvzkvEps?usp=sharing -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Jul 16 18:18:35 2023 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 15:18:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <213fa2e5-90ff-4f86-baea-6e0506da13c9@coveoregon.com> I think these modules are about 12 years old. I didn't have a voltmeter or ammeter with me this morning when this was discovered so I wasn't able to check the output. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 7/16/2023 3:06 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Kent, How is output and how old are the panels? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text > 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-07-16 2:58 pm, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Found some damage to a customer's Grape CS-S-180-DJ PV modules this >> morning. Unlike anything I've ever seen; so I'm hoping that someone >> on this list can tell me the cause. I've put several photos of the >> cells online >> >> so you can inspect them. While it looks like there has been some >> localized heating on the traces, there isn't any evidence of damage >> on the rear of the PV modules. These are on an off grid system >> charging some 12-volt batteries. Thanks. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sun Jul 16 18:40:28 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 15:40:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells In-Reply-To: <213fa2e5-90ff-4f86-baea-6e0506da13c9@coveoregon.com> References: <213fa2e5-90ff-4f86-baea-6e0506da13c9@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: The cells are cracking. The metal traces are victim (not the cause) along the crack lines-- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jul 16 20:35:15 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 18:35:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells In-Reply-To: <213fa2e5-90ff-4f86-baea-6e0506da13c9@coveoregon.com> References: <213fa2e5-90ff-4f86-baea-6e0506da13c9@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <6f08cb03-33ab-9300-8af5-7a49bc54804b@solarray.com> These days modules are so cheap, and so much more efficient, that I just reuse the racks, even if the existing modules are good. Racking, wiring, excavation all exceed the cost of the mods, so its what ever gets the customer the power they need for the lowest cost. OTOH, if the system is still working, I'd just leave them alone, until there's an actual failure.  Funny thing is, those modules could be losing all kinds of power, but you might not really notice it, if its a non MPPT controller.  I do respect the grey haired folks that can still live on a 12 v system, the next generations do not have the patience. I really don't work on 12 v systems much anymore, except to replace them in total.  I've found I can burn up a lot of $$ messing around, and the customer is still running on a 20+ year old system, that's never going to get younger again.  Grape Solar was not a top brand BTW. Ray Walters On 7/16/2023 4:18 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > I think these modules are about 12 years old. I didn't have a > voltmeter or ammeter with me this morning when this was discovered so > I wasn't able to check the output. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 7/16/2023 3:06 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Hi Kent, How is output and how old are the panels? >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text >> 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2023-07-16 2:58 pm, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Found some damage to a customer's Grape CS-S-180-DJ PV modules this >>> morning. Unlike anything I've ever seen; so I'm hoping that someone >>> on this list can tell me the cause. I've put several photos of the >>> cells online >>> >>> so you can inspect them. While it looks like there has been some >>> localized heating on the traces, there isn't any evidence of damage >>> on the rear of the PV modules. These are on an off grid system >>> charging some 12-volt batteries. Thanks. >>> >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Jul 16 20:40:49 2023 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 17:40:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39e9f60e-26d4-01b0-8aac-dad7b610a01d@coveoregon.com> It took some time digging into internet images but I found a YouTube video of the same type of defect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3a9AW24T_o I can see that microcracks are the likely cause. The prevalence of 45 degree angles seems weird though. Monocrystalline cells should have a random fracture direction. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 7/16/2023 2:58 PM, Kent via RE-wrenches wrote: > Found some damage to a customer's Grape CS-S-180-DJ PV modules this > morning. Unlike anything I've ever seen; so I'm hoping that someone on > this list can tell me the cause. I've put several photos of the cells > online > > so you can inspect them. While it looks like there has been some > localized heating on the traces, there isn't any evidence of damage on > the rear of the PV modules. These are on an off grid system charging > some 12-volt batteries. Thanks. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jul 16 22:10:31 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2023 19:10:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kent I can assume there is no backsheet external damage, These look cell fractures, more common on poly, they may be cause of manufacturing or a result of overheating traces or both. Run an IR Curve test and see if this is resulting in decreased output. Sharp had a similar issue when they stepped up to the 200 larger modules some 20 years ago. Fun times On Sun, Jul 16, 2023, 2:59 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Found some damage to a customer's Grape CS-S-180-DJ PV modules this > morning. Unlike anything I've ever seen; so I'm hoping that someone on this > list can tell me the cause. I've put several photos of the cells online > > so you can inspect them. While it looks like there has been some localized > heating on the traces, there isn't any evidence of damage on the rear of > the PV modules. These are on an off grid system charging some 12-volt > batteries. Thanks. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jul 17 20:18:39 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 17:18:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f275caf-eee2-286a-280d-c2b2ee42673d@psln.com> Not sure where this install is located but here in the Sierra, we had a near record snowfall and we saw a few failures, very few, but... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 7/16/2023 7:10 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Kent > I can assume there is no backsheet external damage, These look cell > fractures, more common on poly, they may be cause of manufacturing or > a result of overheating traces or both. Run an IR Curve test and see > if this is resulting in decreased output. Sharp had a similar issue > when they stepped up to the 200 larger modules some 20 years ago. > Fun times > > On Sun, Jul 16, 2023, 2:59 PM Kent via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Found some damage to a customer's Grape CS-S-180-DJ PV modules > this morning. Unlike anything I've ever seen; so I'm hoping that > someone on this list can tell me the cause. I've put several > photos of the cells online > > so you can inspect them. While it looks like there has been some > localized heating on the traces, there isn't any evidence of > damage on the rear of the PV modules. These are on an off grid > system charging some 12-volt batteries. Thanks. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Jul 18 09:06:12 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2023 09:06:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Damaged PV module cells In-Reply-To: <2f275caf-eee2-286a-280d-c2b2ee42673d@psln.com> References: <2f275caf-eee2-286a-280d-c2b2ee42673d@psln.com> Message-ID: It was a bunch of years ago, but I had seen many of these "snail trails" on some modules. I actually took a curve tracer to them, and they functioned essentially the same as the other modules there that did not have the snail trails. Maybe these will be sources of premature failure in the future, but surprisingly, they were not affecting the module at the time. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 8:16 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Not sure where this install is located but here in the Sierra, we had a > near record snowfall and we saw a few failures, very few, but... > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > On 7/16/2023 7:10 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Kent > I can assume there is no backsheet external damage, These look cell > fractures, more common on poly, they may be cause of manufacturing or a > result of overheating traces or both. Run an IR Curve test and see if this > is resulting in decreased output. Sharp had a similar issue when they > stepped up to the 200 larger modules some 20 years ago. > Fun times > > On Sun, Jul 16, 2023, 2:59 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Found some damage to a customer's Grape CS-S-180-DJ PV modules this >> morning. Unlike anything I've ever seen; so I'm hoping that someone on this >> list can tell me the cause. I've put several photos of the cells online >> >> so you can inspect them. While it looks like there has been some localized >> heating on the traces, there isn't any evidence of damage on the rear of >> the PV modules. These are on an off grid system charging some 12-volt >> batteries. Thanks. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_5367882735140895904_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 19 15:17:24 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 14:17:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north facing roof Message-ID: Customer wants me to propose adding solar modules to north roof. I don't know how to get answer from PV Watts? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 19 15:24:04 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 12:24:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north facing roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ad3c435ae4b75fc4b6889bcffbf447f@mail.gmail.com> Darryl: Set Azimuth to 0 degrees: William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, July 19, 2023 12:17 PM *To:* newrewrenches *Cc:* Darryl Thayer *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north facing roof Customer wants me to propose adding solar modules to north roof. I don't know how to get answer from PV Watts? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 77166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 19 16:14:34 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 15:14:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north facing roof In-Reply-To: <3ad3c435ae4b75fc4b6889bcffbf447f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3ad3c435ae4b75fc4b6889bcffbf447f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for your help. On Wed, Jul 19, 2023, 2:35 PM William Miller wrote: > Darryl: > > > > Set Azimuth to 0 degrees: > > > > > > William > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 19, 2023 12:17 PM > *To:* newrewrenches > *Cc:* Darryl Thayer > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How to make PV Watts calculate solar on north > facing roof > > > > Customer wants me to propose adding solar modules to north roof. I don't > know how to get answer from PV Watts? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 77166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 19 22:01:12 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2023 20:01:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Service rated tap devices Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Is there any tap devices (piercing or other) that are UL Listed for tapping on the utility side of a main breaker for a solar interconnection? Our AHJ won't allow anything that isn't service rated. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jul 20 10:21:48 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 07:21:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Service rated tap devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac - Here's a list of NEC 230.46 compliant multitap connectors from NSI, maker of Polaris brand: https://www.nsiindustries.com/line-side-skus/ Note that only the two-port variants are currently on their list, which is sort of a pain. We've been using the IT-350 which has dual-side wire entry, so we pass the primary conductor through the connector completely and strip the wire in the middle (roughly 1" middle-strip) to make the connection, then our tap conductor goes in the other port. If you go to the datasheet, you'll note they say "Connector sizes 350 to 750 MCM are suitable for use on the line side of the service equipment per NEC 230.46 requirements." That might be worth running by your utility if you need a variant with more than two ports. https://cdn.amplifi.pattern.com/fb4d416f-d614-48a7-b7de-a8f8615f501d I'm not aware of any insulation piercing connectors on the market meeting the NEC requirement, but I haven't been hunting that hard. Best, August On Wed, Jul 19, 2023 at 7:02 PM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there any tap devices (piercing or other) that are UL Listed for > tapping on the utility side of a main breaker for a solar interconnection? > Our AHJ won't allow anything that isn't service rated. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Jul 20 16:44:39 2023 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 16:44:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Service rated tap devices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac and All, If you are about to do a Supply-side tap I'd encourage you to look into the many advantages of using a Feeder Tap instead - one of which is that since it's not on the load side of the Main the equipment need not be Service Rated. (not that you might not want it to be anyway.) Be aware that Supply Side Taps make total sense when you are doing only grid-tie as you are always backfeeding and so the current produced by the solar is always cancelling the incoming utility current.  However as soon as you add battery charging to the equation from a large or multiple parallel multi-modal inverter, then you have the very real possibility of overloading the Service Entrance Conductors.  Basically if you have a 200A residential service whose Service Entrance Conductors were based on calcs that had close to maxed out the 160 Amp continuous capacity of a 200 A service, then adding 50 Amps of battery charging to that can push if over the edge.  Once you have bi-directional flow on your supply side tap you are basically adding loads to a service that may not be able to handle it in the case of large batteries with large charging capability. Feeder Taps on the other hand force you to do 2 things 1) they limit the bi-directional current to your Main Breaker size (200 A) and 2) they then re-protect the main load panel downstream of the tap with another Feeder Tap Breaker (or larger conductor) according to NEC2020 705.12(B) - protecting it from the sum of the 200 A potential from the utililty combined with the sell-back current potential of the grid-tie inverters. (diagram attached).  With this configuration you can safely backfeed up to 160 Amps of solar into a 200 Amp service while still have a large battery bank on that system and not worry at all about overloading during heavy battery charging. For new construction or any large install where I need to reconfigure the Service Entrance anyway we use Feeder Taps pretty much exclusively now - for sure so for anything with batteries.  It does require having a stand-alone Main Breaker and to do away with meter-main combo panels. But the safety and flexibility of what you now have to work with in terms of AC or DC coupled inverters and battery backup - including whole home backup are far superior in my book. And for folks already having a Main Breaker that is tappable after the Main but before any busses, the Feeder Tap approach allows you to not require shut-down of the service during reconfiguration. Hope that helps! Best, Jeff > Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > July 19, 2023 at 10:01 PM > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there any tap devices (piercing or other) that are UL Listed for > tapping on the utility side of a main breaker for a solar > interconnection?   Our AHJ won't allow anything that isn't service rated. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2023-07-20 at 4.36.07 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 66896 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 20 17:04:42 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:04:42 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX Message-ID: <46047C41-C43E-4B10-BCDC-2222CB563147@gmail.com> HI All, I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off. So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. Vs If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house. Am I missing something? thanks jay Here is the last email I think: Mac, I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches, I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things running again. I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system. Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system. Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. Thanks for your input! -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 20 19:06:56 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:06:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: <46047C41-C43E-4B10-BCDC-2222CB563147@gmail.com> References: <46047C41-C43E-4B10-BCDC-2222CB563147@gmail.com> Message-ID: <775088f8-5df3-2341-5829-35d51a04d1bc@solarray.com> The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next day. This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point. On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > HI All, > > I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. > > If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, > then starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off. > So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. > > Vs > > If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it > will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay > to close AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house. > > Am I missing something? > > thanks > > jay > > > > > > > > > Here is the last email I think: > > Mac, > > I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is > an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I > believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is > actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or > contactor on the load side. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  > It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple > of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting > can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he > occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things > running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the > primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery > shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system.  Pretty > simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill > effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of > course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. > > Thanks for your input! > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 20 19:10:10 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:10:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback lithium LVD Message-ID: <52DBD95F-F51D-4E7C-BBD4-50FDBAA1328D@gmail.com> I apologize in advance if this is a duplicate. I was contemplating the discussion about how to deal with an inverter that doesnt have the correct LBCO for a lithium LVD voltage. A suggested option for OB was to install a relay triggered by the AUX and controlling the inverter remote on/off switch. But if the aux switches, then the inverter is off and you won’t be able to charge with a generator. Right? I’m asking as I have this exact situation and I’m planning on a relay on the ac inverter output so the client can just turn on the generator and it’ll charge up. Am I missing something? Thanks Jay From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jul 20 19:15:16 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:15:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: <775088f8-5df3-2341-5829-35d51a04d1bc@solarray.com> References: <775088f8-5df3-2341-5829-35d51a04d1bc@solarray.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jul 20 20:00:00 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 18:00:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: References: <775088f8-5df3-2341-5829-35d51a04d1bc@solarray.com> Message-ID: <41255170-1a86-ca85-f7b6-a2a0e63e640d@solarray.com> I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are: 1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well.  It required a relay for the relay. 2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the home. 3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down. I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on. Ray On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray > > This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only. > > And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when > hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. > > Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. > > Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? > > Thx > > Jay > > As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an > AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge. > I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger? > > > > >> On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set >> the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set >> for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and >> inverter.   Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to >> turn the inverters back on the next day. >> >> This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the >> inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point. >> >> On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. >>> >>> If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX >>> relay, then starting the generator won’t have any impact as the >>> inverter is off. >>> So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. >>> >>> Vs >>> >>> If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it >>> will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX >>> relay to close AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house. >>> >>> Am I missing something? >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is the last email I think: >>> >>> Mac, >>> >>> I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need >>> is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. >>> I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts >>> is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or >>> contactor on the load side. >>> Kent Osterberg >>> Blue Mountain Solar >>> >>> >>> On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  >>> It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a >>> couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The >>> LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults >>> cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault >>> to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay >>> logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go >>> into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the >>> system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are >>> any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the >>> system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. >>> >>> Thanks for your input! >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 21 00:38:11 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 21:38:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback lithium LVD In-Reply-To: <52DBD95F-F51D-4E7C-BBD4-50FDBAA1328D@gmail.com> References: <52DBD95F-F51D-4E7C-BBD4-50FDBAA1328D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay I don't seem to have an issue set the inverter to shut down befor the battery and the CCwill begin to charge again untill voltage rises enough to start the inverter back up. Also set the genny to come on even above the inverter voltage so a shut down does not even accure. If you use lithium don't connect the battery temp sensor, it will mess up the chargers. Fun times On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 4:11 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I apologize in advance if this is a duplicate. > > I was contemplating the discussion about how to deal with an inverter that > doesnt have the correct LBCO for a lithium LVD voltage. > > A suggested option for OB was to install a relay triggered by the AUX and > controlling the inverter remote on/off switch. > > But if the aux switches, then the inverter is off and you won’t be able to > charge with a generator. Right? > > I’m asking as I have this exact situation and I’m planning on a relay on > the ac inverter output so the client can just turn on the generator and > it’ll charge up. > > Am I missing something? > > Thanks > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 21 07:10:55 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 05:10:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: <41255170-1a86-ca85-f7b6-a2a0e63e640d@solarray.com> References: <775088f8-5df3-2341-5829-35d51a04d1bc@solarray.com> <41255170-1a86-ca85-f7b6-a2a0e63e640d@solarray.com> Message-ID: To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter shutdown circuit. This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the generator is on. On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the > easy off switching like the Outbacks. The problems are: > 1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well. It > required a relay for the relay. > 2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the > home. > 3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX > inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries > down. > > I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass > control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the > inverters back on. > > Ray > On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi Ray > > This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only. > > And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when > hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. > > Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. > > Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? > > Thx > > Jay > > As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC > coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge. > I guess you’ll have to install an external battery charger? > > > > > On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > > The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start. You need to set the > gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for > lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter. Hopefully > DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on > the next day. > > This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter > won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point. > On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > HI All, > > I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. > > If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then > starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off. > So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. > > Vs > > If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will > start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close > AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house. > > Am I missing something? > > thanks > > jay > > > > > > > > > Here is the last email I think: > > Mac, > > > I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an > inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe > shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually > less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the > load side. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. It's a quad > stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault > and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut > out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct > charge the eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux > relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go > into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system. > Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill > effects of doing this with substantial load on the system. Of course, I > can use a power relay but this may be better. > > Thanks for your input! > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 21 08:28:36 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 06:28:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <074CA3E3-2504-4A6F-9437-36FF8E885439@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 21 17:50:54 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:50:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator start trigger limits XW+ Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I just installed a set of Discover LFP on an older XW+ system. The communication seems to work great and the battery via Xanbus automatically updates the charge settings and inverter settings and the battery is viewable on the Xanbus network. For some reason, the auto gen start module won't allow me to drop the start trigger below 40%. I am wondering if a firmware update will open that range or if I need to replace the AGS. Any suggestions for me? I'll update all firmware but if I can save a trip, that would be great. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri Jul 21 18:06:35 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 22:06:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: <074CA3E3-2504-4A6F-9437-36FF8E885439@gmail.com> References: <074CA3E3-2504-4A6F-9437-36FF8E885439@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was just about to suggest the same thing Mac suggested. Any 120 V relay would work. Just wire it in parallel with the auxiliary relay that is shutting the inverter off. When the AC input is energized, the relay closes, and your inverter turns on. I like using a relay that has a base. I trust the Eaton ice cube ones, but they’re kind of expensive. Here’s a cheaper one… https://www.platt.com/p/0648927/abb/general-purpose-relay-11-blade-3pdt-120v-ac/abb1svr405612r2000 Base - https://www.platt.com/p/0736026/abb/socket-11-blade-cr-m/abb1svr405651r2000 These are the ones I stock on my work truck - https://www.platt.com/p/0147434/eaton/relay-120vac-coil-dpdt-10a-8-pin-plug-in-style/786685930169/cutd3rf2a Base - https://www.platt.com/p/0384871/eaton/socket-octal-8-pin-screw-clamp-terminals/782114159767/cutd3pa2 I like these ones for a few reasons. One, they seem to be quality. Two, you can get them in a wide variety of coil voltages, including DC voltages. Three, I like the little control tab where you can manually turn the relay on if you ever have a reason to do that. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Jul 21, 2023, at 6:29 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:  I’ve never used one before. Can you recommend one? On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:12 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:  To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter shutdown circuit. This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the generator is on. On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off switching like the Outbacks. The problems are: 1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well. It required a relay for the relay. 2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the home. 3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down. I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on. Ray On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Ray This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only. And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? Thx Jay As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge. I guess you’ll have to install an external battery charger? On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start. You need to set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter. Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next day. This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point. On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: HI All, I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off. So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. Vs If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house. Am I missing something? thanks jay Here is the last email I think: Mac, I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches, I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system. Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system. Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. Thanks for your input! -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri Jul 21 18:35:31 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Maxfield Solar) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 16:35:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: References: <074CA3E3-2504-4A6F-9437-36FF8E885439@gmail.com> Message-ID: See this image to see what we mean... I hope this makes sense. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Jul 21, 2023 at 4:07 PM -0600, Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches , wrote: > I was just about to suggest the same thing Mac suggested. Any 120 V relay would work. Just wire it in parallel with the auxiliary relay that is shutting the inverter off. When the AC input is energized, the relay closes, and your inverter turns on. I like using a relay that has a base. I trust the Eaton ice cube ones, but they’re kind of expensive. Here’s a cheaper one… > > https://www.platt.com/p/0648927/abb/general-purpose-relay-11-blade-3pdt-120v-ac/abb1svr405612r2000 > > Base - https://www.platt.com/p/0736026/abb/socket-11-blade-cr-m/abb1svr405651r2000 > > > These are the ones I stock on my work truck -  https://www.platt.com/p/0147434/eaton/relay-120vac-coil-dpdt-10a-8-pin-plug-in-style/786685930169/cutd3rf2a > > Base - https://www.platt.com/p/0384871/eaton/socket-octal-8-pin-screw-clamp-terminals/782114159767/cutd3pa2 > > I like these ones for a few reasons. One, they seem to be quality. Two, you can get them in a wide variety of coil voltages, including DC voltages. Three, I like the little control tab where you can manually turn the relay on if you ever have a reason to do that. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC > Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company) > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > (801) 631-5584(Cell) > www.distribution.solar > > > On Jul 21, 2023, at 6:29 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > I’ve never used one before. > > > > Can you recommend one? > > > > > On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:12 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > > > To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the generator is on. > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > > I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are: > > > > > 1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well.  It required a relay for the relay. > > > > > 2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the home. > > > > > 3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down. > > > > > I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on. > > > > > Ray > > > > > On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only. > > > > > > > > > > > > And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thx > > > > > > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge. > > > > > > I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next day. > > > > > > > This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point. > > > > > > > On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > > > > > HI All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off. > > > > > > > > So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I missing something? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is the last email I think: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mac, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side. > > > > > > > > Kent Osterberg > > > > > > > > Blue Mountain Solar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your input! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > > > > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > > > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > > > > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > _______________________________________________ > > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot 2023-07-21 at 4.34.48 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 65983 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jul 21 20:05:05 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 17:05:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator start trigger limits XW+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5814ca5abfcb375d8b92dd44ce6077da@sti.net> firmware might help this issue. Without knowing what revisions you have now, and the fact that XW+ is really only a voltage based charger... XWpro is voltage and Soc based and is really the best choice for this combo. There will be some things you just can't do with XW+ and I'd say if you are this far into a good installation, it may be best to leave it alone. Sleep on it 😉 The battery was designed for XW and you won't have all the issues that the Outbacks do with LFP. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-07-21 2:50 pm, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > I just installed a set of Discover LFP on an older XW+ system. The > communication seems to work great and the battery via Xanbus > automatically updates the charge settings and inverter settings and the > battery is viewable on the Xanbus network. > > For some reason, the auto gen start module won't allow me to drop the > start trigger below 40%. I am wondering if a firmware update will open > that range or if I need to replace the AGS. Any suggestions for me? > I'll update all firmware but if I can save a trip, that would be great. > > Thanks! > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 22 10:56:09 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2023 09:56:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: <46047C41-C43E-4B10-BCDC-2222CB563147@gmail.com> References: <46047C41-C43E-4B10-BCDC-2222CB563147@gmail.com> Message-ID: How about a Morningstar relay driver? I have not done this exact thing before.but similar things. On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 4:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > HI All, > > I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. > > If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then > starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off. > So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. > > Vs > > If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will > start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close > AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house. > > Am I missing something? > > thanks > > jay > > > > > > > > > Here is the last email I think: > > Mac, > > > I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an > inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe > shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually > less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the > load side. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. It's a quad > stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault > and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut > out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct > charge the eVault to get things running again. > > I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off > contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to > recover the system. Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there > are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the > system. Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. > > Thanks for your input! > > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat Jul 22 19:02:07 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2023 19:02:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. The output voltage does not change at all. The fluctuations in both the lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters causing this issue. Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider high voltage Charge Controller? Thanks, Howie On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a few > days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC voltage > with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of the > lights flickering? Are they on dimmers? Are there any loads failing that > could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ right. > > Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms. > > Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor. Are there > any faults, warnings or events ? Check history. There are a few settings > in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning > strike. > > XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a visual. > There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side > of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. > > While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both LEDs > (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on. > > Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes. > If that does not work, then a reset to factory values. > This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined > with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and > why it would be getting worse without visual evidence. > > Good Luck Howie! > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > > > On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a > Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries > were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via > generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM > 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other > older inverters when using a generator for charging. The solution for this > pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC charge amperage just enough > so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable inconsequential level. And > that worked in this case as well. > However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has now > become fairly intolerable. To my knowledge, no settings changes we made > within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make any > changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating has > started to happen at seemingly random times not related to charging. It > happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the generator, or during the > afternoons with solar charging. And it is getting progressively worse. > Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now? > Howie > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Jul 22 23:49:05 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2023 20:49:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go. On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, > I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It > turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge > HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher > output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through > the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct > proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, > regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, > but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge > is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. > The output voltage does not change at all. The fluctuations in both the > lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production > is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters > causing this issue. > > Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions > for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider > high voltage Charge Controller? > Thanks, > Howie > > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a >> few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC >> voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of >> the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers? Are there any loads failing >> that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ >> right. >> >> Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms. >> >> Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor. Are there >> any faults, warnings or events ? Check history. There are a few settings >> in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning >> strike. >> >> XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a visual. >> There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side >> of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. >> >> While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both >> LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on. >> >> Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes. >> If that does not work, then a reset to factory values. >> This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined >> with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and >> why it would be getting worse without visual evidence. >> >> Good Luck Howie! >> >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> >> >> On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a >> Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries >> were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via >> generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM >> 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other >> older inverters when using a generator for charging. The solution for this >> pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC charge amperage just enough >> so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable inconsequential level. And >> that worked in this case as well. >> However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has >> now become fairly intolerable. To my knowledge, no settings changes we >> made within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make any >> changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating has >> started to happen at seemingly random times not related to charging. It >> happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the generator, or during the >> afternoons with solar charging. And it is getting progressively worse. >> Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now? >> Howie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Jul 23 00:32:27 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 00:32:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and time. When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few similar installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any issue with the design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this design might cause this type of issue. And this did not become an issue at this site until a few months ago, having operated well until then. As I am now hearing, the XW+ is not well equipped to handle voltage regulation when dealing with AC coupled inverters. I don't really understand why the issue is just now showing up, although I suppose it could possibly be due to lightning damage. If the only solution is to install a high voltage charge controller, so be it. Unfortunately this won't be an insignificant cost in dollars and time, a cost I'm not excited to be affording, particularly right now after taking on some substantial losses due to our recent historical flooding. If there was another, less expensive solution, I'd be happy to hear about it. Sorry to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about this eventuality... *Howie **Sun Catcher* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play > nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go. > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi, >> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It >> turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge >> HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher >> output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through >> the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct >> proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, >> regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, >> but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge >> is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. >> The output voltage does not change at all. The fluctuations in both the >> lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production >> is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters >> causing this issue. >> >> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions >> for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider >> high voltage Charge Controller? >> Thanks, >> Howie >> >> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a >>> few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC >>> voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of >>> the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers? Are there any loads failing >>> that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ >>> right. >>> >>> Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms. >>> >>> Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor. Are there >>> any faults, warnings or events ? Check history. There are a few settings >>> in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning >>> strike. >>> >>> XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a visual. >>> There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side >>> of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. >>> >>> While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both >>> LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on. >>> >>> Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 >>> minutes. If that does not work, then a reset to factory values. >>> This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined >>> with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and >>> why it would be getting worse without visual evidence. >>> >>> Good Luck Howie! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a >>> Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries >>> were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via >>> generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM >>> 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other >>> older inverters when using a generator for charging. The solution for this >>> pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC charge amperage just enough >>> so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable inconsequential level. And >>> that worked in this case as well. >>> However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has >>> now become fairly intolerable. To my knowledge, no settings changes we >>> made within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make any >>> changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating has >>> started to happen at seemingly random times not related to charging. It >>> happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the generator, or during the >>> afternoons with solar charging. And it is getting progressively worse. >>> Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now? >>> Howie >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 23 08:53:13 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 06:53:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DACDB8F-CCF9-4D5E-ADF9-C93A298EE31A@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Jul 23 10:40:39 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 10:40:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: <5DACDB8F-CCF9-4D5E-ADF9-C93A298EE31A@gmail.com> References: <5DACDB8F-CCF9-4D5E-ADF9-C93A298EE31A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I'm not sure what Schneider has to say, since Tech Support has been impossible to reach this week (apparently something is wrong with their phone system) and it was only recently that we determined the cause. It should be under warranty, unless there is lightning damage. I will write to my support contacts and see if they have anything helpful to offer via email, although I find that form of communication with them to often be less than satisfactory. Howie On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an > issue. > > I don’t see how the SE could cause this. > > Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue. > > Jay > > > > On Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and > time. When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few similar > installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any issue with the > design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this design might cause this > type of issue. And this did not become an issue at this site until a few > months ago, having operated well until then. As I am now hearing, the XW+ > is not well equipped to handle voltage regulation when dealing with AC > coupled inverters. I don't really understand why the issue is just now > showing up, although I suppose it could possibly be due to lightning > damage. If the only solution is to install a high voltage charge > controller, so be it. Unfortunately this won't be an insignificant cost in > dollars and time, a cost I'm not excited to be affording, particularly > right now after taking on some substantial losses due to our recent > historical flooding. If there was another, less expensive solution, I'd be > happy to hear about it. Sorry to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about > this eventuality... > > *Howie **Sun Catcher* > > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > > > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play >> nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go. >> >> On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. >>> It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled >>> SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with >>> higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current >>> through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in >>> direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the >>> house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an >>> oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when >>> the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not >>> producing. The output voltage does not change at all. The fluctuations in >>> both the lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge >>> production is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 >>> inverters causing this issue. >>> >>> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any >>> suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a >>> Schneider high voltage Charge Controller? >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a >>>> few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC >>>> voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of >>>> the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers? Are there any loads failing >>>> that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ >>>> right. >>>> >>>> Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms. >>>> >>>> Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor. Are there >>>> any faults, warnings or events ? Check history. There are a few settings >>>> in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning >>>> strike. >>>> >>>> XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a visual. >>>> There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right >>>> side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. >>>> >>>> While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both >>>> LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on. >>>> >>>> Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 >>>> minutes. If that does not work, then a reset to factory values. >>>> This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined >>>> with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and >>>> why it would be getting worse without visual evidence. >>>> >>>> Good Luck Howie! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a >>>> Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries >>>> were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via >>>> generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM >>>> 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other >>>> older inverters when using a generator for charging. The solution for this >>>> pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC charge amperage just enough >>>> so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable inconsequential level. And >>>> that worked in this case as well. >>>> However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has >>>> now become fairly intolerable. To my knowledge, no settings changes we >>>> made within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make any >>>> changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating has >>>> started to happen at seemingly random times not related to charging. It >>>> happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the generator, or during the >>>> afternoons with solar charging. And it is getting progressively worse. >>>> Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now? >>>> Howie >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jul 23 10:57:48 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 07:57:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: <5DACDB8F-CCF9-4D5E-ADF9-C93A298EE31A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57f4e73fa9c4ea6de9537ee2b46a2f95@sti.net> Take the covers off XW+ Boss ! Go to webinar this Thursday below. Happy Sunday ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Friends, Because we ran out of time during the XW Pro Troubleshooting webinar, we weren't able to take any questions. I wanted to give you the opportunity to join this follow-up webinar, and this time I promise to leave plenty of time for Q&A. This session will encapsulate all of the most popular and informative topics into one session. ✅ Understanding what sets XW Pro apart from the competition ✅ Essentials of designing a system ✅ Monitoring options ✅ Q&A Register today! https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/xw-pro-performance-design-and-monitoring/ [1] I look forward to seeing you then .Eric Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-07-23 7:40 am, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay, > I'm not sure what Schneider has to say, since Tech Support has been > impossible to reach this week (apparently something is wrong with their > phone system) and it was only recently that we determined the cause. > It should be under warranty, unless there is lightning damage. I will > write to my support contacts and see if they have anything helpful to > offer via email, although I find that form of communication with them > to often be less than satisfactory. > > Howie > > On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an > issue. > > I don't see how the SE could cause this. > > Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue. > > Jay > > On Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and > time. When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few > similar installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any > issue with the design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this > design might cause this type of issue. And this did not become an issue > at this site until a few months ago, having operated well until then. > As I am now hearing, the XW+ is not well equipped to handle voltage > regulation when dealing with AC coupled inverters. I don't really > understand why the issue is just now showing up, although I suppose it > could possibly be due to lightning damage. If the only solution is to > install a high voltage charge controller, so be it. Unfortunately this > won't be an insignificant cost in dollars and time, a cost I'm not > excited to be affording, particularly right now after taking on some > substantial losses due to our recent historical flooding. If there was > another, less expensive solution, I'd be happy to hear about it. Sorry > to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about this eventuality... > > Howie > Sun Catcher > > Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play > nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go. > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi, > I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. > It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled > SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger > with higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more > current through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably > fluctuates in direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all > the lights in the house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I > did not have an oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very > slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock > solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. The output voltage does not > change at all. The fluctuations in both the lights and the inverter > hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production is shut off. So it > is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters causing this issue. > > Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any > suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge > with a Schneider high voltage Charge Controller? > > Thanks, > > Howie > > On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a > few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC > voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are > all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers? Are there any loads > failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock > solid 60 HZ right. > > Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms. > > Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor. Are there > any faults, warnings or events ? Check history. There are a few > settings in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or > nearby lightning strike. > > XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a visual. > There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right > side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. > > While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both > LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on. > > Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 > minutes. If that does not work, then a reset to factory values. > This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined > with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness > and why it would be getting worse without visual evidence. > > Good Luck Howie! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a > Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the > batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher > side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled > with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to > symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator for charging. > The solution for this pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC > charge amperage just enough so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable > inconsequential level. And that worked in this case as well. > However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has > now become fairly intolerable. To my knowledge, no settings changes we > made within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make > any changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating > has started to happen at seemingly random times not related to > charging. It happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the > generator, or during the afternoons with solar charging. And it is > getting progressively worse. > Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now? > > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/xw-pro-performance-design-and-monitoring/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Sun Jul 23 23:42:15 2023 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don energysolarnow.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 03:42:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations Message-ID: Howie- it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting frequency, and the loads don't like it. When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that AC coupled solar power to go. This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as simple as a dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess energy. Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that. Heat up a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas. DonBarch Energy Solar From: Howie Michaelson To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi, I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. The output voltage does not change at all. The fluctuations in both the lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters causing this issue. Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider high voltage Charge Controller? Thanks, Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 24 00:37:20 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 00:37:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don, Thanks, but this is not the issue here. The fluctuations happen anytime the AC coupled inverter connects to the XW+'s "grid", not just when the batteries are full. The frequency only changes about 1/10 of a herz when it connects, but it doesn't matter what the voltage is of the batteries, the pulsation starts. Going over the settings with Eric Bentsen, we shut off the AC coupled option to prevent the frequency shifting - this made no difference. We do have a contactor installed that disconnects the inverter from AC when the voltage starts elevating past the charge voltage and it has worked well for years. If I set up an AC coupled Off-Grid open loop system in the future, I'm thinking that I would look to disconnect the DC input as the batteries reach charged voltage - generally an easier cycling for the system to endure. There is also a smaller, legacy DC coupled array in this system which takes care of the finishing charge of the batteries through a charge controller. Again, it has all worked well in the past, only having any issues with AC fluctuations due to having the generator charging load set too high for the existing generator. This was solved by simply turning down the charge rate of the batteries and the visible light fluctuations stopped. Howie On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 11:42 PM don energysolarnow.com < don at energysolarnow.com> wrote: > Howie- > it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting > frequency, and the loads don't like it. > When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that AC > coupled solar power to go. > This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as simple as > a dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess energy. > Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that. > Heat up a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas. > > DonBarch > Energy Solar > > From: Howie Michaelson > To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations > Message-ID: > oOj_P0_a_sjyvw7_-+8kC9yVFSnm9PkWvgK-xnjx9MQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi, > I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It > turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge > HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher > output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through > the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct > proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, > regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, > but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge > is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. > The output voltage does not change at all. The fluctuations in both the > lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production > is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters > causing this issue. > > Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions > for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider > high voltage Charge Controller? > Thanks, > Howie > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Jul 24 10:18:04 2023 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 10:18:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tech Support Message-ID: Hey all, After the typical 1 hour wait to get up to Level 2 for SMA tech support, the tech mentioned there might be some option where you get registered (or possibly pay) to bypass Level 1? Or somehow get more streamlined service? He didn't know how or where to access that service. Has anyone heard of this and/or utilized it? Forever frustrated with their wait times. Thanks for any feedback. Adam Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jul 24 10:44:57 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 07:44:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Howie, Can't remember but did you try disabling the charger in XW+ for a pulsation test ? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-07-23 9:37 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Don, > Thanks, but this is not the issue here. The fluctuations happen > anytime the AC coupled inverter connects to the XW+'s "grid", not just > when the batteries are full. The frequency only changes about 1/10 of > a herz when it connects, but it doesn't matter what the voltage is of > the batteries, the pulsation starts. Going over the settings with Eric > Bentsen, we shut off the AC coupled option to prevent the frequency > shifting - this made no difference. We do have a contactor installed > that disconnects the inverter from AC when the voltage starts elevating > past the charge voltage and it has worked well for years. If I set up > an AC coupled Off-Grid open loop system in the future, I'm thinking > that I would look to disconnect the DC input as the batteries reach > charged voltage - generally an easier cycling for the system to endure. > There is also a smaller, legacy DC coupled array in this system which > takes care of the finishing charge of the batteries through a charge > controller. Again, it has all worked well in the past, only having any > issues with AC fluctuations due to having the generator charging load > set too high for the existing generator. This was solved by simply > turning down the charge rate of the batteries and the visible light > fluctuations stopped. > > Howie > > On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 11:42 PM don energysolarnow.com [1] > wrote: > >> Howie- >> it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting >> frequency, and the loads don't like it. >> >> When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that >> AC coupled solar power to go. >> >> This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as >> simple as a dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess >> energy. >> Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that. >> Heat up a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas. >> >> DonBarch >> Energy Solar >> >> From: Howie Michaelson >> To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches >> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi, >> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. >> It >> turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled >> SolarEdge >> HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with >> higher >> output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current >> through >> the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in >> direct >> proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the >> house, >> regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an >> oscilloscope, >> but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the >> SolarEdge >> is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not >> producing. >> The output voltage does not change at all. The fluctuations in both >> the >> lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge >> production >> is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters >> causing this issue. >> >> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any >> suggestions >> for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a >> Schneider >> high voltage Charge Controller? >> Thanks, >> Howie > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://energysolarnow.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jul 24 11:32:47 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 09:32:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for Outback installer dealer troubleshooter Ft. Collins CO area Message-ID: Hey All, Looking for Outback installer dealer troubleshooter Ft. Collins CO area. I did a burly work trailer install for a friend from Ft. Collins Co a few years back (I am in Idaho 14 hours away) & he is having issues with an Outback inverter shutdown. Is there anyone in the Front range/ Ft Collins area that could do some trouble shooting? Please contact me off list - Thank you. -- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 24 14:31:42 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 14:31:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, I'm pretty sure I have not done that test. I'm not currently in sure and won't be for a couple of weeks, but maybe I can try it remotely. Went would disabling the charger make a difference with an AC coupled backfeed issue? Thanks, Howie On Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 10:45 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey Howie, Can't remember but did you try disabling the charger in XW+ for a pulsation test ? > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-07-23 9:37 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Don, > Thanks, but this is not the issue here. The fluctuations happen anytime > the AC coupled inverter connects to the XW+'s "grid", not just when the > batteries are full. The frequency only changes about 1/10 of a herz when > it connects, but it doesn't matter what the voltage is of the batteries, > the pulsation starts. Going over the settings with Eric Bentsen, we shut > off the AC coupled option to prevent the frequency shifting - this made no > difference. We do have a contactor installed that disconnects the inverter > from AC when the voltage starts elevating past the charge voltage and it > has worked well for years. If I set up an AC coupled Off-Grid open loop > system in the future, I'm thinking that I would look to disconnect the DC > input as the batteries reach charged voltage - generally an easier cycling > for the system to endure. There is also a smaller, legacy DC coupled array > in this system which takes care of the finishing charge of the batteries > through a charge controller. Again, it has all worked well in the past, > only having any issues with AC fluctuations due to having the generator > charging load set too high for the existing generator. This was solved by > simply turning down the charge rate of the batteries and the visible light > fluctuations stopped. > Howie > > On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 11:42 PM don energysolarnow.com < > don at energysolarnow.com> wrote: > > Howie- > it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting > frequency, and the loads don't like it. > When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that AC > coupled solar power to go. > This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as simple as > a dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess energy. > Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that. > Heat up a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas. > > DonBarch > Energy Solar > > From: Howie Michaelson > To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations > Message-ID: > oOj_P0_a_sjyvw7_-+8kC9yVFSnm9PkWvgK-xnjx9MQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi, > I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It > turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge > HDwave 6kW inverter. Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher > output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through > the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct > proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, > regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, > but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge > is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. > The output voltage does not change at all. The fluctuations in both the > lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production > is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters > causing this issue. > > Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions > for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider > high voltage Charge Controller? > Thanks, > Howie > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jul 24 16:50:04 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:50:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Tech Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c2608e9-59fd-7f58-c1cc-514cf7a28426@psln.com> Adam,             Have you registered and been working through their new and "improved" Online Service Center?  I just needed a replacement inverter for a 1001 code and it was pretty clunky going through the OSC: https://my.sma-service.com/s/?language=en_US I'm hoping it gets better but it took awhile.  Not like the good ol' days of calling, telling them the code, providing some measurements and tests and having an inverter sent within a day or two.             There's no way I'm knocking SMA, they've been really good for us, this is probably just a bump in the road. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 7/24/2023 7:18 AM, AE Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hey all, > After the typical 1 hour wait to get up to Level 2 for SMA tech > support, the tech mentioned there might be some option where you get > registered (or possibly pay) to bypass Level 1? Or somehow get more > streamlined service? He didn't know how or where to access that > service. Has anyone heard of this and/or utilized it? Forever > frustrated with their wait times. Thanks for any feedback. > Adam > > > Adam Katzman (he/him) > Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator > www.AutonomousEnergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jul 25 18:11:39 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 18:11:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Car Charger Message-ID: Hi All, I have never installed the SolarEdge car charger, and even though it seems to have some capacity advantages over a standalone charger, for some reason I've stayed away from them. I'd be interested to hear others' takes on the advantages/disadvantages of going that route. Thanks, Howie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Wed Jul 26 00:49:32 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2023 21:49:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Car Charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I haven’t installed a Solaredge in years so my info might not be up to date, but I remember that the EV Charger units couldn’t be commissioned without an active internet connection. The early models had high failure rate, but that was within the first year or two that they offered the EV Charger/inverter. I hope they would have fixed those bugs by now. On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 3:11 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > I have never installed the SolarEdge car charger, and even though it seems > to have some capacity advantages over a standalone charger, for some reason > I've stayed away from them. I'd be interested to hear others' takes on the > advantages/disadvantages of going that route. > Thanks, > Howie > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Wed Jul 26 18:24:47 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 16:24:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200a manual xfer switch w/ small aux contact : who makes it? Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project needs dual 40kW diesel generators with easy manual selection between "A" or "B". The output from the manual switch would feed AC into a set of XW Pro inverter/chargers. I seek a 200a manual xfer switch that can also changeover the 12v+ generator automation wire with the same handle. Schneider DTU324N is 3 phase (solid neutral) so that does get me a third blade but since the trigger wire is only a few amps this p/n seems like overkill on size/weight and on cost. The manual switch unit doesn't need to make or break live power because folks always tend to shut down any nearby noisy engine before they do any switching. We also don't need 100k short circuit current rating because the machines can't fault as big as grid power can. Non-fusible seems best b/c each genset will have a 200a main breaker. I'd prefer to buy the switch inside a NEMA1 enclosure rather than getting a bare switch that would require me to mount it into a housing. The project won't be code inspected, so thanks in advance for any suggestions. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 26 18:40:49 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 17:40:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200a manual xfer switch w/ small aux contact : who makes it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have seen such equipment from generator suppliers, they will be reversing contactors, Look for reversing disconnecting switches I have used them from SQ D and Eaton, and GE. On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 5:26 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project needs dual 40kW diesel generators with > easy manual selection between "A" or "B". The output from the manual switch > would feed AC into a set of XW Pro inverter/chargers. > > I seek a 200a manual xfer switch that can also changeover the 12v+ > generator automation wire with the same handle. Schneider DTU324N is 3 > phase (solid neutral) so that does get me a third blade but since the > trigger wire is only a few amps this p/n seems like overkill on size/weight > and on cost. > > The manual switch unit doesn't need to make or break live power because > folks always tend to shut down any nearby noisy engine before they do any > switching. We also don't need 100k short circuit current rating because the > machines can't fault as big as grid power can. Non-fusible seems best b/c > each genset will have a 200a main breaker. I'd prefer to buy the switch > inside a NEMA1 enclosure rather than getting a bare switch that would > require me to mount it into a housing. The project won't be code > inspected, so thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 26 18:57:48 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 15:57:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200a manual xfer switch w/ small aux contact : who makes it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You saw the back-up control switch from Schneider? Probably not what you want. https://solar.se.com/us/en/product/backup-control-switch/ Might be good for something else? Whole home or partial home backup made easy. When paired with Schneider Electric XW Pro inverters, the Backup Control Switch (BCS) automatically disconnects from the grid during an outage, allowing the system to provide backup power to the home. Certified to UL standards for USA, The Backup Control Switch is used for larger XW Pro systems requiring up to 200 A rated MID or service entrance installation. Flexible Installation * Whole home backup or subpanel backup with up to 200 A rating * Service entrance rated when installed with a main breaker * Top or bottom entry for grid input * Optional non-backup circuit, making it easy to backup an existing panel and remove select non-critical loads * Configurable for export limiting with integrated meter Reliable * Fast 50 ms transfer from grid connected to backup power operation * Reliable backup power and load starting performance with the compatible XW Pro inverters * Connect up to 4 XW Pro inverters for up to 27 kW continuous and 48 kW peak backup power capability * Outdoor rated enclosure * 10 year limited warranty Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-07-26 3:24 pm, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project needs dual 40kW diesel generators > with easy manual selection between "A" or "B". The output from the > manual switch would feed AC into a set of XW Pro inverter/chargers. > > I seek a 200a manual xfer switch that can also changeover the 12v+ > generator automation wire with the same handle. Schneider DTU324N is 3 > phase (solid neutral) so that does get me a third blade but since the > trigger wire is only a few amps this p/n seems like overkill on > size/weight and on cost. > > The manual switch unit doesn't need to make or break live power because > folks always tend to shut down any nearby noisy engine before they do > any switching. We also don't need 100k short circuit current rating > because the machines can't fault as big as grid power can. Non-fusible > seems best b/c each genset will have a 200a main breaker. I'd prefer to > buy the switch inside a NEMA1 enclosure rather than getting a bare > switch that would require me to mount it into a housing. The project > won't be code inspected, so thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com [1] > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abrahamsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jul 26 19:28:37 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 16:28:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200a manual xfer switch w/ small aux contact : who makes it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick: Square D offers a set of auxiliary contacts on the double throw switches. It is ordered by adding a suffix to the model number. Check the footnotes in the Digest. My supplier at CED can hook you up and arrange a drop shipment. Eddie Jensen at 805-543-4700. Be careful though, these are micro switches that sometimes come mis-aligned such that they might barely trip when installed and then not quite trip later on. Exercise the switch and observe the throw to ensure it is positive. Good luck. William On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 3:26 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project needs dual 40kW diesel generators with > easy manual selection between "A" or "B". The output from the manual switch > would feed AC into a set of XW Pro inverter/chargers. > > I seek a 200a manual xfer switch that can also changeover the 12v+ > generator automation wire with the same handle. Schneider DTU324N is 3 > phase (solid neutral) so that does get me a third blade but since the > trigger wire is only a few amps this p/n seems like overkill on size/weight > and on cost. > > The manual switch unit doesn't need to make or break live power because > folks always tend to shut down any nearby noisy engine before they do any > switching. We also don't need 100k short circuit current rating because the > machines can't fault as big as grid power can. Non-fusible seems best b/c > each genset will have a 200a main breaker. I'd prefer to buy the switch > inside a NEMA1 enclosure rather than getting a bare switch that would > require me to mount it into a housing. The project won't be code > inspected, so thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Jul 26 20:13:59 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2023 17:13:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 200a manual xfer switch w/ small aux contact : who makes it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ditto what William said about those micro-switches. They really need to be fine tuned On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 4:29 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Mick: > > Square D offers a set of auxiliary contacts on the double throw switches. > It is ordered by adding a suffix to the model number. Check the footnotes > in the Digest. My supplier at CED can hook you up and arrange a drop > shipment. Eddie Jensen at 805-543-4700. > > Be careful though, these are micro switches that sometimes come > mis-aligned such that they might barely trip when installed and then not > quite trip later on. Exercise the switch and observe the throw to ensure it > is positive. > > Good luck. > > William > > On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 3:26 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi, Mechanix~ My off grid project needs dual 40kW diesel generators with >> easy manual selection between "A" or "B". The output from the manual switch >> would feed AC into a set of XW Pro inverter/chargers. >> >> I seek a 200a manual xfer switch that can also changeover the 12v+ >> generator automation wire with the same handle. Schneider DTU324N is 3 >> phase (solid neutral) so that does get me a third blade but since the >> trigger wire is only a few amps this p/n seems like overkill on size/weight >> and on cost. >> >> The manual switch unit doesn't need to make or break live power because >> folks always tend to shut down any nearby noisy engine before they do any >> switching. We also don't need 100k short circuit current rating because the >> machines can't fault as big as grid power can. Non-fusible seems best b/c >> each genset will have a 200a main breaker. I'd prefer to buy the switch >> inside a NEMA1 enclosure rather than getting a bare switch that would >> require me to mount it into a housing. The project won't be code >> inspected, so thanks in advance for any suggestions. >> >> The Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> ᐧ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Jul 30 12:37:25 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:37:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: References: <775088f8-5df3-2341-5829-35d51a04d1bc@solarray.com> <41255170-1a86-ca85-f7b6-a2a0e63e640d@solarray.com> Message-ID: <7277066a75e0a0fdb6639266f5703c43@redwoodalliance.org> Do you have a source for voltage sensing coils? I only know about using the Morningstar relay driver. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-07-21 07:10, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter shutdown circuit. This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the generator is on. > > On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off switching like the Outbacks. The problems are: > 1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well. It required a relay for the relay. > 2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the home. > 3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down. > > I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on. > > Ray > > On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote: > Hi Ray > > This house won't have an AGS, manual start only. > > And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. > > Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. > > Again I'm back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? > > Thx > > Jay > > As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won't charge. > I guess you'll have to install an external battery charger? > > On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start. You need to set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter. Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next day. > > This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point. > > On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: HI All, > > I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. > > If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then starting the generator won't have any impact as the inverter is off. > So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. > > Vs > > If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output relay and you'll have power in the house. > > Am I missing something? > > thanks > > jay > > Here is the last email I think: > > Mac, > > I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system. Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system. Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. > > Thanks for your input! > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue Aug 1 19:00:04 2023 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 16:00:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ Repair Message-ID: <189b35478df.1269851f11055384.7620814982840835208@greenwired.com> Does anyone know anyone working on Schneider inverters? I got a customer who had a ac relay go out on a 5548 XW+ its part of a 3phase unit so I kinda need it. I used to use ASE Supply in OR but they said they really dont work any them anymore mainly in part of Schneider not supplying parts anymore. If it cant be repaired is a 6848 pro going to be able to work, my gut says no?  Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 1 19:16:45 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 16:16:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ Repair In-Reply-To: <189b35478df.1269851f11055384.7620814982840835208@greenwired.com> References: <189b35478df.1269851f11055384.7620814982840835208@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Definitely can't use XWP as it will not like previous generations of XW. There was a way that I did a similar fix by reverting back an XW+ 6848 to 5548. Have to look in the archives. Is your client on or offgrid? You can call and ask who they are recommending now for repair. Sorry to hear about ASE. They were great. Call Support USA: 1-833-391-8640 Support Hours: 8 am - 11 pm, Mon to Fri (Eastern time) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-01 4:00 pm, Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone know anyone working on Schneider inverters? I got a > customer who had a ac relay go out on a 5548 XW+ its part of a 3phase > unit so I kinda need it. I used to use ASE Supply in OR but they said > they really dont work any them anymore mainly in part of Schneider not > supplying parts anymore. If it cant be repaired is a 6848 pro going to > be able to work, my gut says no? > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > Store Manager/Service Tech > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com [1] > > Leave us a review! [2] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.greenwired.com [2] http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a S phone.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 130466 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Aug 1 19:23:55 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 17:23:55 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback GLC Bypass slider plate Message-ID: <9b5024f9-cab0-7576-fea9-3f8393839417@solarwork.com> Oh wise guys, I am looking for (1) Outback GSLC bypass slider plate to allow 2 generators to separately feed an OB GSLC. I will be using a 30 amp 2 pole breaker VS the 60 amp that come in the IO kit from outback. Please contact me off list -- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Tue Aug 1 19:33:18 2023 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 16:33:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ Repair In-Reply-To: <189b35478df.1269851f11055384.7620814982840835208@greenwired.com> References: <189b35478df.1269851f11055384.7620814982840835208@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Last time I had an AC relay go, I ordered a board from Mark Snyder. mseprojects at marksnyderelectric.com Eric Smiley Design Manager E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca On Tue., Aug. 1, 2023, 16:00 Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches, < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone know anyone working on Schneider inverters? I got a customer > who had a ac relay go out on a *5548 XW+ *its part of a 3phase unit so I > kinda need it. I used to use ASE Supply in OR but they said they really > dont work any them anymore mainly in part of Schneider not supplying parts > anymore. If it cant be repaired is a 6848 pro going to be able to work, my > gut says no? > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > Store Manager/Service Tech > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > > *Leave us a review!* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 2 08:20:32 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 06:20:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar edge question Message-ID: Hi all For all you SE experts. I got contacted from someone who has an offgrid system of a SE 7600A and battery. Works fine. They want to connect to grid power, which is right at the street because they want an EV. My question is, what do they need to make this a normal sell back and battery backup ( for a sub panel). Is it just the SE energy hub backup interface? Or? And does the 7600A work with that? Thanks in advance Jay From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Aug 2 08:26:56 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 08:26:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar edge question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, The energy hub is incompatible with older Storedge inverters. And the newer SE battery pack is also incompatible with the Storedge. On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:22 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > For all you SE experts. > > I got contacted from someone who has an offgrid system of a SE 7600A and > battery. Works fine. > > They want to connect to grid power, which is right at the street because > they want an EV. > > My question is, what do they need to make this a normal sell back and > battery backup ( for a sub panel). > > Is it just the SE energy hub backup interface? Or? > And does the 7600A work with that? > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 2 10:00:10 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 08:00:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar edge question Message-ID: <7ED5FBF7-94F4-4465-9FB4-786E395181DA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Aug 2 10:02:30 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 10:02:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar edge question In-Reply-To: <7ED5FBF7-94F4-4465-9FB4-786E395181DA@gmail.com> References: <7ED5FBF7-94F4-4465-9FB4-786E395181DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: it must be an LG RESU battery, right? On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:00 AM Jay wrote: >  > Hi Kirk > > Thanks. > > Their system is from around 2017. Battery/inverter have worked fine. > > Is there a way to go from offgrid like it is now to grid tie battery > backup? > > And what parts are needed? > > Thx > > Jay > > On Aug 2, 2023, at 6:27 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: > >  > Hi Jay, > > The energy hub is incompatible with older Storedge inverters. And the > newer SE battery pack is also incompatible with the Storedge. > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:22 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> For all you SE experts. >> >> I got contacted from someone who has an offgrid system of a SE 7600A and >> battery. Works fine. >> >> They want to connect to grid power, which is right at the street because >> they want an EV. >> >> My question is, what do they need to make this a normal sell back and >> battery backup ( for a sub panel). >> >> Is it just the SE energy hub backup interface? Or? >> And does the 7600A work with that? >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 2 11:02:59 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 11:02:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries Message-ID: I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps 2-in nipples if I have enough room. If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please let me know. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Aug 2 11:23:53 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 10:23:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason The old Sol-Ark had the PV disconnect and the Wi-Fi adapter connection on the bottom and that needed about six or 8 inches of clearance. The current Sol-Ark has those items on the side of the unit so you don’t need such clearance on the bottom. I installed several Sol-Ark and I use the relatively close arrangement between the gutter and the inverter of two EMT male adapters and a just enough EMT to make them connect. Thank you, Maverick > On Aug 2, 2023, at 10:04 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps 2-in nipples if I have enough room. > > If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please let me know. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Aug 2 13:07:21 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 10:07:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe with easy access to the display Fun times On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that > are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are > any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway > below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps > 2-in nipples if I have enough room. > > If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please > let me know. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Wed Aug 2 14:19:59 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 11:19:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" nipples work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut the bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the gutter, placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long. On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason > In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height > is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x > X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not > want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through > the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just > create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe > with easy access to the display > Fun times > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that >> are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are >> any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway >> below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps >> 2-in nipples if I have enough room. >> >> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please >> let me know. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sol ark nipple.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 258830 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Gutter.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 233297 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Aug 2 15:44:49 2023 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 15:44:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: <66fde315-a446-bf86-48f0-1e6183fb1840@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <66fde315-a446-bf86-48f0-1e6183fb1840@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Here's a way to do separate AC and DC gutters right below multiple units. I used offset nipples and 3" rigid nipples (or was it 2"?) to span to the lower DC Gutte(6" x 6")  and close or 1" nipples to the AC Gutter (4" x 4"). However to get the DC PV MPPT circuits out to the back (DC) gutter I had to add KOs behind the little plate (on the 12K) just below the MPPT circuits that also required putting a 3/4" KO in the vertical plate inside the inverter. Hope that helps! Best, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > > August 2, 2023 at 11:02 AM > I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter > that are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if > there are any negative implications of using very short nipples > between a wireway below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using > close nipples or perhaps 2-in nipples if I have enough room. > > If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, > please let me know. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 49056 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_9491.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 863352 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_9498.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 648473 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_9499.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 656151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Aug 2 20:25:12 2023 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 20:25:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ Repair In-Reply-To: <189b35478df.1269851f11055384.7620814982840835208@greenwired.com> References: <189b35478df.1269851f11055384.7620814982840835208@greenwired.com> Message-ID: U might try Inverter service center I think they can replace the relays. I may have a used one contact me off list. T > On Aug 1, 2023, at 7:00 PM, Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Does anyone know anyone working on Schneider inverters? I got a customer who had a ac relay go out on a 5548 XW+ its part of a 3phase unit so I kinda need it. I used to use ASE Supply in OR but they said they really dont work any them anymore mainly in part of Schneider not supplying parts anymore. If it cant be repaired is a 6848 pro going to be able to work, my gut says no? > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > > Store Manager/Service Tech > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > > > Leave us a review! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 70501 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 40561 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 3 06:09:49 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 06:09:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW+ Repair In-Reply-To: References: <189b35478df.1269851f11055384.7620814982840835208@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Slightly off topic, but Inverter Service Center just opened a location in my hometown of Fort Myers, FL in case any of you Florida people need repairs. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:26 PM Tump via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > U might try Inverter service center I think they can replace the relays. I > may have a used one contact me off list. T > > On Aug 1, 2023, at 7:00 PM, Andrew Perkins via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Does anyone know anyone working on Schneider inverters? I got a customer > who had a ac relay go out on a *5548 XW+ *its part of a 3phase unit so I > kinda need it. I used to use ASE Supply in OR but they said they really > dont work any them anymore mainly in part of Schneider not supplying parts > anymore. If it cant be repaired is a 6848 pro going to be able to work, my > gut says no? > > Andrew Perkins > > Greenwired > Store Manager/Service Tech > > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > > > *Leave us a review!* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump3391 at gmail.com <3391 at gmail.com>* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 40561 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 70501 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 3 10:50:26 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2023 10:50:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on a 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in groups of 3. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" nipples work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut the bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the gutter, placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long. > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jason > In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe with easy access to the display > Fun times > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps 2-in nipples if I have enough room. > > If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please let me know. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sol ark nipple.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 258830 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Gutter.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 233297 bytes Desc: not available URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Aug 3 13:02:59 2023 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 13:02:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX In-Reply-To: <7277066a75e0a0fdb6639266f5703c43@redwoodalliance.org> References: <775088f8-5df3-2341-5829-35d51a04d1bc@solarray.com> <41255170-1a86-ca85-f7b6-a2a0e63e640d@solarray.com> <7277066a75e0a0fdb6639266f5703c43@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <012701d9c62c$5dba4750$192ed5f0$@glbcc.com> We have used Dwyer Instrument coils in the past. They detect AC current flow and have contacts you can wire for operation of other circuitry. They have quite a range of devices and you may find one suitable for your needs. Good luck! Best regards, Glenn Burt glb, Consulting Company 1949 East Road Bennington, VT 05201 glenn.burt at glbcc.com (518) 681-2274 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional TM VT Special Electrician EL-06979 Microsoft Certified Professional Member IEEE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 12:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX Do you have a source for voltage sensing coils? I only know about using the Morningstar relay driver. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2023-07-21 07:10, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter shutdown circuit. This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the generator is on. On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > wrote: I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off switching like the Outbacks. The problems are: 1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well. It required a relay for the relay. 2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the home. 3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down. I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on. Ray On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote: Hi Ray This house won't have an AGS, manual start only. And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. Again I'm back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? Thx Jay As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won't charge. I guess you'll have to install an external battery charger? On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start. You need to set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter. Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next day. This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point. On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: HI All, I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then starting the generator won't have any impact as the inverter is off. So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. Vs If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output relay and you'll have power in the house. Am I missing something? thanks jay Here is the last email I think: Mac, I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches, I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system. Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system. Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. Thanks for your input! -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 13:08:43 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 10:08:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Drake, Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new diesels not to have that function. On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on a > 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in > groups of 3. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > --- > > > > On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" nipples > work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut the > bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the > gutter, placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we > have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture > showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long. > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jason > In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height > is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x > X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not > want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through > the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just > create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe > with easy access to the display > Fun times > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that > are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are > any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway > below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps > 2-in nipples if I have enough room. > > If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please > let me know. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 251101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 205218 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 188225 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 184807 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 218078 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 342721 bytes Desc: not available URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 18:39:59 2023 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2023 12:39:59 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All, Super impressive install, Michael. Almost worth a flight, and a site visit! Back to Jason's initial question.... If you are using the 15kW Outdoor Sol-Ark they vent from the top and bottom with a required 6" minimum spacing on both the top and bottom. A 12kW Outdoor with 8x8 gutter and 1" offset nipples have worked great for us. Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 345 6762 On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:09 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Drake, > Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up > as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single > phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV > line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard > to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back of the > gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use > gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses > controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery > hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the > collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the > batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from > the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage > (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch > to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC > cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a > generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new > diesels not to have that function. > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on a >> 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in >> groups of 3. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> >> *Drake Chamberlin* >> >> *Athens Electric LLC* >> >> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >> >> *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526* >> >> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" nipples >> work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut the >> bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the >> gutter, placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we >> have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture >> showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long. >> >> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Jason >> In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height >> is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x >> X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not >> want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through >> the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just >> create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe >> with easy access to the display >> Fun times >> >> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that >> are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are >> any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway >> below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps >> 2-in nipples if I have enough room. >> >> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please >> let me know. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Aug 4 09:00:28 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2023 09:00:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is an amazing, super clean installation. --- On 2023-08-03 13:08, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Drake, > Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new diesels not to have that function. > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on a 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in groups of 3. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" nipples work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut the bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the gutter, placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long. > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jason > In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe with easy access to the display > Fun times > > On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps 2-in nipples if I have enough room. > > If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please let me know. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 251101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 205218 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 188225 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 184807 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 218078 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 342721 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 4 09:51:58 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 09:51:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Lou. I missed that 6" bottom spacing requirement in the manual. That could explain a lot of the installation pictures I have seen. On the flip side, we have seen some examples of installations in this thread without this 6-inch spacing, presumably without any adverse effects. Obviously, NEC requires that we follow the manufacturer's instructions, but for practical purposes or non-NEC installations, I wonder if this bottom spacing is necessary. Perhaps the manufacturer could provide a letter of exception. I might have to reach out to them. The manual seems to indicate the heat dissipation is "from bottom to top," so I'm not sure how critical the intake air spacing really is. I wouldn't want to put anything less than 6 inches above, but perhaps below isn't as critical. My situation is that I want to put a 12x12 gutter above some HomeGrid stacks and the inverters over the gutter. Based on my calculations, if I use more than 2 inches of space between the gutter and inverter, I will exceed the working height limit for the breakers in the inverters. Yes, I am aware of the depth difference between equipment and that will be addressed to meet working space requirements. My technical problem is only the NEC 240.24(A) height limit. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 6:41 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello All, > > Super impressive install, Michael. Almost worth a flight, and a site > visit! Back to Jason's initial question.... > > If you are using the 15kW Outdoor Sol-Ark they vent from the top and > bottom with a required 6" minimum spacing on both the top and bottom. > > A 12kW Outdoor with 8x8 gutter and 1" offset nipples have worked great for > us. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > (808) 345 6762 > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:09 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Drake, >> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up >> as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single >> phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV >> line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard >> to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back of the >> gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use >> gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses >> controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery >> hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the >> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the >> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from >> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage >> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch >> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC >> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a >> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new >> diesels not to have that function. >> >> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on >>> a 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in >>> groups of 3. >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> *Drake Chamberlin* >>> >>> *Athens Electric LLC* >>> >>> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >>> >>> *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526* >>> >>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >>> --- >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" >>> nipples work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut >>> the bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the >>> gutter, placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we >>> have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture >>> showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long. >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> Jason >>> In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, height >>> is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a 8"x8"x >>> X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had AHJ not >>> want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass through >>> the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I just >>> create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is safe >>> with easy access to the display >>> Fun times >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that >>> are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are >>> any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway >>> below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps >>> 2-in nipples if I have enough room. >>> >>> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please >>> let me know. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 10:58:14 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 07:58:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We handle the 15Ks much like most vfds since both have cooling vents in the rear and knockouts or wiring compartments in the rear. What we do is set the units back so that the rear portion is hanging off of the rear of the gutter. The gutter in this case is held off of the wall for air flow. It does take some 3D strut work to accomplish. I'm putting a bank of VFDs in my woodshop today and will photograph this. Yes, it does place things a few inches out of the frontal plane, but the intent of the code is really to prevent things like putting a transformer in front of a panelboard or some similar situation. On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 6:52 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thanks, Lou. I missed that 6" bottom spacing requirement in the manual. > That could explain a lot of the installation pictures I have seen. > > On the flip side, we have seen some examples of installations in this > thread without this 6-inch spacing, presumably without any adverse effects. > Obviously, NEC requires that we follow the manufacturer's instructions, but > for practical purposes or non-NEC installations, I wonder if this bottom > spacing is necessary. Perhaps the manufacturer could provide a letter of > exception. I might have to reach out to them. The manual seems to indicate > the heat dissipation is "from bottom to top," so I'm not sure how critical > the intake air spacing really is. I wouldn't want to put anything less than > 6 inches above, but perhaps below isn't as critical. > > My situation is that I want to put a 12x12 gutter above some HomeGrid > stacks and the inverters over the gutter. Based on my calculations, if I > use more than 2 inches of space between the gutter and inverter, I will > exceed the working height limit for the breakers in the inverters. > > Yes, I am aware of the depth difference between equipment and that will be > addressed to meet working space requirements. My technical problem is only > the NEC 240.24(A) height limit. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 6:41 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello All, >> >> Super impressive install, Michael. Almost worth a flight, and a site >> visit! Back to Jason's initial question.... >> >> If you are using the 15kW Outdoor Sol-Ark they vent from the top and >> bottom with a required 6" minimum spacing on both the top and bottom. >> >> A 12kW Outdoor with 8x8 gutter and 1" offset nipples have worked great >> for us. >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> (808) 345 6762 >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:09 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Drake, >>> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this >>> up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground >>> single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile >>> 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of >>> hard to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back >>> of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often >>> we use gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which >>> houses controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, >>> Battery hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the >>> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the >>> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from >>> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage >>> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch >>> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC >>> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a >>> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new >>> diesels not to have that function. >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters on >>>> a 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected in >>>> groups of 3. >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> *Drake Chamberlin* >>>> >>>> *Athens Electric LLC* >>>> >>>> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >>>> >>>> *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526* >>>> >>>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" >>>> nipples work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut >>>> the bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the >>>> gutter, placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we >>>> have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture >>>> showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, >>>> height is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a >>>> 8"x8"x X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had >>>> AHJ not want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass >>>> through the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I >>>> just create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is >>>> safe with easy access to the display >>>> Fun times >>>> >>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter >>>> that are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if >>>> there are any negative implications of using very short nipples between a >>>> wireway below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or >>>> perhaps 2-in nipples if I have enough room. >>>> >>>> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please >>>> let me know. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 4 11:07:15 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 11:07:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael, I think your work looks stellar, and I seriously doubt there would be any airflow issues. I plan to use strut to put the inverters out from the wall to deal with the working depth issue, which should also help with airflow. That was part of my thought process - even if the inverters don't have much bottom clearance, there will be a gap off the wall. My issue is that the HomeGrid batteries are pretty deep, much like the transformer problem that you are suggesting. I have to get the inverters off the wall to meet the depth requirements if I want the batteries directly below. If I have to give them 6" to the gutter I will have to go back to the drawing board. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 10:59 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We handle the 15Ks much like most vfds since both have cooling vents in > the rear and knockouts or wiring compartments in the rear. What we do is > set the units back so that the rear portion is hanging off of the rear of > the gutter. The gutter in this case is held off of the wall for air flow. > It does take some 3D strut work to accomplish. I'm putting a bank of VFDs > in my woodshop today and will photograph this. Yes, it does place things a > few inches out of the frontal plane, but the intent of the code is really > to prevent things like putting a transformer in front of a panelboard or > some similar situation. > > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 6:52 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Thanks, Lou. I missed that 6" bottom spacing requirement in the manual. >> That could explain a lot of the installation pictures I have seen. >> >> On the flip side, we have seen some examples of installations in this >> thread without this 6-inch spacing, presumably without any adverse effects. >> Obviously, NEC requires that we follow the manufacturer's instructions, but >> for practical purposes or non-NEC installations, I wonder if this bottom >> spacing is necessary. Perhaps the manufacturer could provide a letter of >> exception. I might have to reach out to them. The manual seems to indicate >> the heat dissipation is "from bottom to top," so I'm not sure how critical >> the intake air spacing really is. I wouldn't want to put anything less than >> 6 inches above, but perhaps below isn't as critical. >> >> My situation is that I want to put a 12x12 gutter above some HomeGrid >> stacks and the inverters over the gutter. Based on my calculations, if I >> use more than 2 inches of space between the gutter and inverter, I will >> exceed the working height limit for the breakers in the inverters. >> >> Yes, I am aware of the depth difference between equipment and that will >> be addressed to meet working space requirements. My technical problem is >> only the NEC 240.24(A) height limit. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 6:41 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> Super impressive install, Michael. Almost worth a flight, and a site >>> visit! Back to Jason's initial question.... >>> >>> If you are using the 15kW Outdoor Sol-Ark they vent from the top and >>> bottom with a required 6" minimum spacing on both the top and bottom. >>> >>> A 12kW Outdoor with 8x8 gutter and 1" offset nipples have worked great >>> for us. >>> >>> Aloha, >>> >>> Lou Russo >>> (808) 345 6762 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:09 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Drake, >>>> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this >>>> up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground >>>> single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile >>>> 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of >>>> hard to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back >>>> of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often >>>> we use gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which >>>> houses controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, >>>> Battery hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the >>>> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the >>>> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from >>>> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage >>>> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch >>>> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC >>>> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a >>>> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new >>>> diesels not to have that function. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:50 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That looks really nice. How were you able to put 8 Sol Arc inverters >>>>> on a 3 phase panel? Tech support told me that inverters had to be connected >>>>> in groups of 3. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> >>>>> Drake >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Drake Chamberlin* >>>>> >>>>> *Athens Electric LLC* >>>>> >>>>> *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* >>>>> >>>>> *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526* >>>>> >>>>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2023-08-02 14:19, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>> >>>>> 10x10 gutter. Notice within, a 2.5x2.5 gutter for comms. 1 x 2.5" >>>>> nipples work well. Chase nipples wont due to door clearance. I've also cut >>>>> the bottoms out of the Sol-Arks and a corresponding square window in the >>>>> gutter, placed a 1/4" rubber gasket between the two. We do that when we >>>>> have many VFD's over a gutter. Someone a while ago asked for a picture >>>>> showing how we make long bussbars. This one is 24' long. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 10:08 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> In plenty of applications l will use couplers with chase nipples, >>>>> height is one issue but installed working height is very important. I use a >>>>> 8"x8"x X gutter and sometimes even off set that from the wall, l have had >>>>> AHJ not want to see mixed cables LVDC and AC in the same conduit so pass >>>>> through the battery conductors right out the bottom and to the battery. I >>>>> just create a template for punching into the gutter, looks clean and is >>>>> safe with easy access to the display >>>>> Fun times >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter >>>>> that are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if >>>>> there are any negative implications of using very short nipples between a >>>>> wireway below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or >>>>> perhaps 2-in nipples if I have enough room. >>>>> >>>>> If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, >>>>> please let me know. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Aug 4 12:47:15 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2023 09:47:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9920c9a9901c78c9bf34ed7be91c27f8@sti.net> Very nice Install Michael! Was that the project on the xxCloud River we talked about? It looks like you have kept the gutter heat gain down to protect electronics. "the rule of thumb is that every 10°C increase in temperature reduces component life by half" https://www.electronics-cooling.com/2017/08/10c-increase-temperature-really-reduce-life-electronics-half/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-03 10:08 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Drake, > Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this > up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground > single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half > mile 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, > it's kind of hard to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv > circuits to the back of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed > cable tie holders. Often we use gutter dividers. They originate in the > tall cabinet at the end which houses controls, secondary PV > disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery hub and (Lynk II). On > the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the collection and > distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the batteries are > small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from the > transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage > (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other > switch to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In > the AC cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to > achieve a generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and > it's hell on new diesels not to have that function. > > ___________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 12:55:32 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 09:55:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: <9920c9a9901c78c9bf34ed7be91c27f8@sti.net> References: <9920c9a9901c78c9bf34ed7be91c27f8@sti.net> Message-ID: I just checked out the Homegrid batteries. Just throwing this out there. If there is enough ceiling height you could hang them. That's typically how we deal with transformers in commercial and industrial settings. We usually build a permanent gantry out of square tubing, 1/2" rod and strut. Then ratchet strap or chain hoist them up. Just an idea. Yes Dave, that's the one. On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 9:48 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Very nice Install Michael! Was that the project on the xxCloud River we > talked about? > > It looks like you have kept the gutter heat gain down to protect > electronics. “the rule of thumb is that every 10°C increase in > temperature reduces component life by half” > > https://www.electronics-cooling.com/2017/08/10c-increase-temperature-really-reduce-life-electronics-half/ > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-08-03 10:08 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Drake, > Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up > as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single > phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV > line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard > to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back of the > gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use > gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses > controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery > hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the > collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the > batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from > the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage > (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch > to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC > cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a > generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new > diesels not to have that function. > > > ___________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 4 14:44:40 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 14:44:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: <9920c9a9901c78c9bf34ed7be91c27f8@sti.net> Message-ID: That's an interesting idea for sure. Most residential garages around here are only 8' or 9', so that could present some issues. It might be hard to stack the HomeGrid batteries on a high rack, and then the wire management from the top BMS is another issue. Still, for a more business/industrial setting, I can see that being a plausible solution and could remove the working depth issue altogether if they are high enough. Incidentally, I just found this picture on the HomeGrid website showing essentially zero clearance below a Sol-Ark inverter. [image: image.png] Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 12:56 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just checked out the Homegrid batteries. Just throwing this out there. > If there is enough ceiling height you could hang them. That's typically how > we deal with transformers in commercial and industrial settings. We usually > build a permanent gantry out of square tubing, 1/2" rod and strut. Then > ratchet strap or chain hoist them up. Just an idea. > > Yes Dave, that's the one. > > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 9:48 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Very nice Install Michael! Was that the project on the xxCloud River we >> talked about? >> >> It looks like you have kept the gutter heat gain down to protect >> electronics. “the rule of thumb is that every 10°C increase in >> temperature reduces component life by half” >> >> https://www.electronics-cooling.com/2017/08/10c-increase-temperature-really-reduce-life-electronics-half/ >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2023-08-03 10:08 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi Drake, >> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this up >> as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground single >> phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile 15KV >> line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of hard >> to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back of the >> gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often we use >> gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which houses >> controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, Battery >> hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the >> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the >> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from >> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage >> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch >> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC >> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a >> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new >> diesels not to have that function. >> >> >> ___________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 600241 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 4 15:00:48 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 15:00:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: <9920c9a9901c78c9bf34ed7be91c27f8@sti.net> Message-ID: Now that I look closer at HomeGrid's website, it could be a treasure trove for one of those "spot the code violation" sections in the back of a magazine. https://www.homegridenergy.com/stackd-series (bottom of page) Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 2:44 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > That's an interesting idea for sure. Most residential garages around here > are only 8' or 9', so that could present some issues. It might be hard to > stack the HomeGrid batteries on a high rack, and then the wire management > from the top BMS is another issue. Still, for a more business/industrial > setting, I can see that being a plausible solution and could remove the > working depth issue altogether if they are high enough. > > Incidentally, I just found this picture on the HomeGrid website showing > essentially zero clearance below a Sol-Ark inverter. > > [image: image.png] > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 12:56 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I just checked out the Homegrid batteries. Just throwing this out there. >> If there is enough ceiling height you could hang them. That's typically how >> we deal with transformers in commercial and industrial settings. We usually >> build a permanent gantry out of square tubing, 1/2" rod and strut. Then >> ratchet strap or chain hoist them up. Just an idea. >> >> Yes Dave, that's the one. >> >> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 9:48 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >> RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> Very nice Install Michael! Was that the project on the xxCloud River we >>> talked about? >>> >>> It looks like you have kept the gutter heat gain down to protect >>> electronics. “the rule of thumb is that every 10°C increase in >>> temperature reduces component life by half” >>> >>> https://www.electronics-cooling.com/2017/08/10c-increase-temperature-really-reduce-life-electronics-half/ >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> >>> On 2023-08-03 10:08 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Hi Drake, >>> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this >>> up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground >>> single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile >>> 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of >>> hard to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back >>> of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often >>> we use gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which >>> houses controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, >>> Battery hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the >>> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the >>> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from >>> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage >>> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch >>> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC >>> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a >>> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new >>> diesels not to have that function. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> >>> >>> Morningstar Electric >>> >>> PO Box 1494 >>> >>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>> >>> 530-921-0560 >>> >>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 600241 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Fri Aug 4 15:30:38 2023 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2023 09:30:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: <9920c9a9901c78c9bf34ed7be91c27f8@sti.net> Message-ID: FYI, your previous picture is of a 12k, you can tell by the on off button on the face of inverter, it didn't require any bottom ventilation, just side. Roland Shackelford President / Owner NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 O 808.775.7410 | M 808.938.9239 | 45-487 Lehua St Honokaa, HI 96727 Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 9:02 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Now that I look closer at HomeGrid's website, it could be a treasure trove > for one of those "spot the code violation" sections in the back of a > magazine. > > https://www.homegridenergy.com/stackd-series > > (bottom of page) > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 2:44 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> That's an interesting idea for sure. Most residential garages around here >> are only 8' or 9', so that could present some issues. It might be hard to >> stack the HomeGrid batteries on a high rack, and then the wire management >> from the top BMS is another issue. Still, for a more business/industrial >> setting, I can see that being a plausible solution and could remove the >> working depth issue altogether if they are high enough. >> >> Incidentally, I just found this picture on the HomeGrid website showing >> essentially zero clearance below a Sol-Ark inverter. >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 12:56 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I just checked out the Homegrid batteries. Just throwing this out there. >>> If there is enough ceiling height you could hang them. That's typically how >>> we deal with transformers in commercial and industrial settings. We usually >>> build a permanent gantry out of square tubing, 1/2" rod and strut. Then >>> ratchet strap or chain hoist them up. Just an idea. >>> >>> Yes Dave, that's the one. >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 9:48 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>> RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>>> Very nice Install Michael! Was that the project on the xxCloud River >>>> we talked about? >>>> >>>> It looks like you have kept the gutter heat gain down to protect >>>> electronics. “the rule of thumb is that every 10°C increase in >>>> temperature reduces component life by half” >>>> >>>> https://www.electronics-cooling.com/2017/08/10c-increase-temperature-really-reduce-life-electronics-half/ >>>> >>>> >>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2023-08-03 10:08 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Drake, >>>> Those are single phase combiner panels. I would have loved to set this >>>> up as a three phase system, but there was already a mile of underground >>>> single phase run throughout the property. We ended up running a half mile >>>> 15KV line from the power site to the estate. This is an aside, it's kind of >>>> hard to see, but for seperation, we attached the pv circuits to the back >>>> of the gutter using through bolted adhesive backed cable tie holders. Often >>>> we use gutter dividers. They originate in the tall cabinet at the end which >>>> houses controls, secondary PV disconnects, AC and DC egauges, Tigo hub, >>>> Battery hub and (Lynk II). On the opposite end is a similar cabinet for the >>>> collection and distribution of AC circuits. Also, above and below the >>>> batteries are small gutters for communications and CT wires that run from >>>> the transfer switches to eguage. One transfer switch to alternate usage >>>> (alternating relay) or bypass between Gen 1 and Gen 2, and the other switch >>>> to select inverter or generator power, locally or remotely. In the AC >>>> cabinet there is a 400a contactor and time delay relay to achieve a >>>> generator cooldown as the janky Sol-Arks don't do that and it's hell on new >>>> diesels not to have that function. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael Morningstar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Morningstar Electric >>>> >>>> PO Box 1494 >>>> >>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>> >>>> 530-921-0560 >>>> >>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> >>> Morningstar Electric >>> >>> PO Box 1494 >>> >>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>> >>> 530-921-0560 >>> >>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 600241 bytes Desc: not available URL: From max at seesolar.com Sat Aug 5 09:06:54 2023 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2023 06:06:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k Conduit Entries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i like using gutters, it keeps it clean you can just as easily put the gutter vertical on the side and use close nipples….. Max Balchowsky SEE Systems On Wed, Aug 2, 2023 at 8:04 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I see a lot of pictures with conduit nipples coming out of a gutter that > are fairly long. I have a height limit issue and I'm wondering if there are > any negative implications of using very short nipples between a wireway > below and the inverter. I'm thinking about using close nipples or perhaps > 2-in nipples if I have enough room. > > If there are any practical reasons that this will not work well, please > let me know. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 7 17:36:04 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2023 17:36:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashing Identification Message-ID: Obviously, this is wrong on so many levels, but can someone identify the flashings in the attached picture? Looks like I'm taking on another charity case. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20230803_141940(0).jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 289687 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Aug 7 18:51:31 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2023 18:51:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashing Identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001d9c981$b59c3de0$20d4b9a0$@mindspring.com> Jason Why they are funky weird looking black flashings. May I save the picture for my scrap book on bad installs? My apologies for poking fun but WOW, my guys will think I made it up. Thx Peter Giroux From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, August 7, 2023 5:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashing Identification Obviously, this is wrong on so many levels, but can someone identify the flashings in the attached picture? Looks like I'm taking on another charity case. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Aug 7 18:52:09 2023 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2023 18:52:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashing Identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh my. Well at least there are palm trees in the background, lol. Christopher On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 5:36 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Obviously, this is wrong on so many levels, but can someone identify the > flashings in the attached picture? > > Looks like I'm taking on another charity case. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 7 20:05:10 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2023 20:05:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashing Identification In-Reply-To: <000001d9c981$b59c3de0$20d4b9a0$@mindspring.com> References: <000001d9c981$b59c3de0$20d4b9a0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Feel free to share it and help people avoid disasters like this. I found out from a colleague offline that this is probably a Sunmodo TopTile. It's a decking-only attachment. We only use QuickMoint Tile Replacement Mounts, so I'm not familiar with the newfangled tech. I'm not messing with a good thing, especially here in hurricane central. Jason On Mon, Aug 7, 2023, 6:52 PM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason > > > > Why they are funky weird looking black flashings. May I save the picture > for my scrap book on bad installs? My apologies for poking fun but WOW, my > guys will think I made it up. > > > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, August 7, 2023 5:36 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Flashing Identification > > > > Obviously, this is wrong on so many levels, but can someone identify the > flashings in the attached picture? > > > > Looks like I'm taking on another charity case. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Aug 8 11:11:33 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2023 09:11:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in Message-ID: Oh Wise folks! Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use for yourself in the future. I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack meter  box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. The apts. were a mid 1970's original build.  There are 4 apartment with 1 circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My response was that all we are doing is  achieving a properly sized bus bar to accommodate the back feed. My Utility Idaho Power requires  interconnection with a meter that has a load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve a larger array connection & how it went? -- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Interconnection for Valley View Apts 08072023.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 177755 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 12:34:12 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2023 09:34:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no experience with the Hawaii connection, but another choice for a tap connector is the Ilso GTA type with cover. You don't have to cut the tapped line and don't rely on piercing it. Brad Bassett Application Engineer (ret.) 1985 Solar Eng Svcs -> Applied Power -> Applied Power (Idaho Power)(incl: SES, AscensionTech, Alt Energy Eng)-> Schott Applied Power-> 2003 AEE Solar-> AEE Solar (Mainstream Energy)-> AEE Solar (Sunrun) 2023 On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 8:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use > for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack > meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. > The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 > circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker > boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - > 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past > from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility > is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My > response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar > to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a > load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads > only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve > a larger array connection & how it went? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GTA-250-250-WC.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13848 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Tue Aug 8 13:14:25 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2023 10:14:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Type 1: You’ll be limited to 100A solar because the Utility conductors you’re attaching to are 100A. The Utility tap needs to immediately go to a fused disconnect switch, generally within 6ft (sometimes 10ft) and within line of sight of the meter. Fuses need AIC rating equivalent to that of the Sylvania main breaker On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 8:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use > for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack > meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. > The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 > circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker > boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - > 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past > from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility > is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My > response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar > to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a > load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads > only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve > a larger array connection & how it went? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 13:45:37 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2023 10:45:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does the utility allow line side tie in and then you should not need to be concerned about the 100 amp main as long as you have the wire size correct. Many utilities are not allowing line side tap however. Fun times On Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 8:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use > for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack > meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. > The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 > circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker > boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - > 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past > from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility > is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My > response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar > to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a > load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads > only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve > a larger array connection & how it went? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 14:19:39 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2023 13:19:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I need clarification; however, here is my interpretation for you. The utility feeds the meter and then the 100A breaker. Then you want this 100A breaker to feed the 220A bus panel. This 220A panel then supplies through a 100A breaker the house load. The solar also feeds the 220A panel. If the solar exceeds 100A, and the house load is small, the meter breaker will disconnect, losing power to the solar and the load. On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 10:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use > for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack > meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. > The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 > circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker > boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - > 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past > from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility > is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My > response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar > to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a > load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads > only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve > a larger array connection & how it went? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Aug 8 15:04:43 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2023 13:04:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18916a91-2593-0cb8-db48-d98c9a5d6954@solarwork.com> Correct  & The 225 amp bus bar gives us the busbar ampacity to accept the 120 amp back feed (includes the 25% factor) 22800w /240v = 95 amp On 8/8/2023 12:19 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > I need clarification; however, here is my interpretation for you. > The utility feeds the meter and then the 100A breaker. > Then you want this 100A breaker to feed the 220A bus panel. > This 220A panel then supplies through a 100A breaker the house load. > The solar also feeds the 220A panel. If the solar exceeds 100A, and > the house load is small, the meter breaker will disconnect, losing > power to the solar and the load. > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 10:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to > possibly use for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 > pack meter  box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 > amp busbars. The apts. were a mid 1970's original build.  There > are 4 apartment with 1 circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter > for owners use.The breaker boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I > assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - 100 amp breakers & this was not > the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the > past from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, > the utility is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 > amp breaker. My response was that all we are doing is  achieving a > properly sized bus bar to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires  interconnection with a meter that > has a load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for > the owners loads only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps > each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to > achieve a larger array connection & how it went? > > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 > dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Aug 8 16:13:50 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2023 16:13:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in In-Reply-To: <18916a91-2593-0cb8-db48-d98c9a5d6954@solarwork.com> References: <18916a91-2593-0cb8-db48-d98c9a5d6954@solarwork.com> Message-ID: The Feeder Tap is our preferred method when available. However, I think you will find engineers who disagree that the tap can occur anywhere along the feeder. In my experience, PEs want to see that tap done with the downstream OCPD close to the tap. We would normally tap immediately before the subpanel OCPD within the subpanel. We use a "sum of breakers" and "120%" rule in combination for many situations with meter/main panels and downstream subpanels. I've heard this called the Hawaiian Mai-Tai and/or Mai-Tai with a twist depending on the scenario. The only issue I see potentially with Dana's Hawaii Tie-In example is mixing feeder conductors and service conductors in the same raceway (230.7). It's not completely clear what the intention is. I have seen some inspectors take this to another level and try to apply 230.7 to enclosures, but usually you can talk them through that unless they dig their heels in and consider an enclosure or cabinet a raceway. You might also need to deal with limitations in 312.8 regarding your splices. Regarding the utility asking how you can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker, what business is that of theirs, and why the heck not?! In Florida, once you leave the meter can, that's customer-owned equipment and outside the utility's domain. There are millions of 200A residential services with 225A load centers (bus rating). Maybe they are wondering how you can do it because it is MLO, but that does not matter because the bus is protected by the premises main OCPD. One other consideration is whether you can even do this. If the combined continuous inverter output current exceeds 80A, the conductors between the main disconnect and the subpanel would need to be larger than #3 because the subpanel is MLO and the backfed conductors need to be sized for 125% of the inverter output current (regardless of the 100A OCPD in the meter bank). And then the main disconnect itself would need to be greater than 100A, which would exceed the service rating. It's unclear what the actual inverter output ratings are in the example drawing. Around here, we are limited to 90% of the service rating by the utility, but that's a moot point because you can't exceed 80% of the service rating due to the main breaker needing to be 125% of the inverter output rating. I'm oversimplifying this because the utility's 90% rule is not directly related to the inverter output rating, but is 85% of the system DC rating (which is pretty dumb). Fun, fun, fun... Fortunately, we don't run into too many 100A services around here. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 3:04 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Correct & The 225 amp bus bar gives us the busbar ampacity to accept the > 120 amp back feed (includes the 25% factor) > > 22800w /240v = 95 amp > > > On 8/8/2023 12:19 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I need clarification; however, here is my interpretation for you. > The utility feeds the meter and then the 100A breaker. > Then you want this 100A breaker to feed the 220A bus panel. > This 220A panel then supplies through a 100A breaker the house load. > The solar also feeds the 220A panel. If the solar exceeds 100A, and the > house load is small, the meter breaker will disconnect, losing power to the > solar and the load. > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 10:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Oh Wise folks! >> >> Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use >> for yourself in the future. >> >> I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack >> meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. >> The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 >> circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker >> boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - >> 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... >> >> I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past >> from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility >> is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My >> response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar >> to accommodate the back feed. >> >> My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a >> load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads >> only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. >> >> I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to >> achieve a larger array connection & how it went? >> -- >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for >> Responsible People since 1988" >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Mon Aug 14 21:59:48 2023 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2023 19:59:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for photos of solar water pumps, especially portable, battery-based and grid-tied systems Message-ID: "The Handbook of Solar Water Pumping" is to be published next year by CRC Press. It's very thorough, including portability and integration with battery systems and power grids. We are looking for high-quality photos especially for those applications. Portable - any kind of portable or mobile SWP system, especially showing how it is used. Battery system - a SWP that includes battery for on-demand, stabilizing the flow, and/or pressurizing OR a system that feeds from a home or multi-purpose battery system. Grid-tied - any size of irrigation system that has grid-tied PV with water pumping as a significant load - especially if it has load management to optimally use the PV. They must be good clear images of at least 2mb file size that capture the system aspect, not just components. Photos used will be credited and you'll be acknowledged. Thanks from co-authors: Windy Dankoff, Alma Cota, Robert Foster, Eric Lespin, From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Aug 16 16:20:21 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2023 16:20:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heliene 66M HJT All Black Module 360 or 370 watt module In-Reply-To: <1692216960722.593df7e45fa5d90a@re-wrenches.org> References: <1692216960722.593df7e45fa5d90a@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: /I have had one of these break and I am wondering if anyone has one for sale or knows who is caring them. I have struck out over the past two weeks. Please contact me off list. Thank you for any help. Chris / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 22:09:44 2023 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2023 16:09:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Maui wildfires fundraising Message-ID: Aloha Kakou Wrenches, Please see this link and info below. These guys are installing microgrids to help get basic services back online and even internet/facetime with Starlink. If you can help in any way it would be greatly appreciated. My apologies if this is off-topic, but if you spent any time on the islands you know how special this place and its people are. https://secure.givelively.org/donate/footprint-project/solar-microgrids-for-maui Here is some info on this organization: Footprint Project’s mission is to help build back greener after climate disasters by mobilizing cleaner energy for communities in crisis. We are a 501(c)(3) non-profit disaster service organization that develops and deploys solar generator networks to empower community resilience. We work across the disaster management cycle to expand frontline access to cleaner technologies and reduce fossil fuel use in the field. Since 2018, we’ve mobilized solar microgrids to 20+ disaster response and recovery missions, providing emergency power access to 25,000+ US citizens. Photo Library for this response - photos will be added as we receive them from the field. Scroll down for updates Footprint Project's General Capabilities Statement In response to the devastating Maui wildfires, we are fundraising to deploy solar microgrids for community charging hubs, lighting, wifi communications, shelters, refrigeration, lighting, and other critical energy needs. We are working with on-the-ground relief teams, local solar installers, and microgrid industry leaders, to power up sites across the affected area. All funds will be used to cover equipment procurement, installation, and maintenance costs. RESPONSE PARTNERS: Regenerative Education Centers, Direct Relief , ITDRC , SmartAID , Empowered By Light INDUSTRY PARTNERS: Hawaii Solar Energy Association , Sunrun , Rising Sun , Schneider Electric , LONGi , Greentech Renewables , Elcco Electric , Simpliphi Power , Sol-Ark , DER Task Force To join our coalition of response or industry partners, email logistics at footprintproject.org --- UPDATE 8/15/2023 - #Microgrids4Maui's first deployment was installed today at community leader Archie Kalepa's home, which was saved from the #mauifires thanks to valiant efforts from neighbors and firefighters. The relief hub is collecting and distributing supplies and providing medical services for the community. Local installers Rising Sun Solar and Sunrun set up a palletized solar microgrid to help take the relief hub off gas generators for the long haul towards recovery. Share on Instagram UPDATE 8/13/2023 - RisingSun has assembled five palletized solar microgrids donated by Sunrun, and are prepping for deployment tomorrow. UPDATE 8/12/2023 - We have committed $30,000 from our emergency fund to cover rapid equipment procurements and logistics costs. UPDATE 8/11/2023 - Requests for site power support have started to trickle in. Meeting them quickly will be challenging. UPDATE 8/10/2023 - We are mourning today. And calling every solar microgrid supplier we know to see what's available close by. Mahalo, James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-39784 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 11:09:22 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 09:09:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines Message-ID: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> Hi all Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? All of my searches come up with nothing. Thanks in advance Jay From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Aug 17 11:49:16 2023 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 11:49:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> References: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good luck with that search Jay. Most of the companies that manufactured machines in that size range went out of business quite some time ago. Unfortunately, lots of low quality equipment has filled that void.....buyer beware! Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747www.four-winds-energy.com Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 8/17/2023 11:09 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all > > Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? > > All of my searches come up with nothing. > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 12:03:53 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 10:03:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 14:22:15 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 14:22:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay and Roy, Join me on my crusade to get the PIKA T701 back into production. It was the best I ever owned but had to sell it to a customer when PIKA stopped production. Still lots of their 100 units produced are out there somewhere. I just found one currently running in a very poor wind site that the owner is willing to sell. I can't wait to get it back on my tower! Specs are still found on NAZ website. Google PIKA T701 John Blittersdorf On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 12:04 PM Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Yeah just kinda of sad they are gone. > > Like others, a friend called looking to replace a very old whisper power. > > Ok more solar it is. > > Thx > Jay > > > > On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:51 AM, Roy Butler via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  Good luck with that search Jay. > > Most of the companies that manufactured machines in that size range went out of business quite some time ago. > Unfortunately, lots of low quality equipment has filled that void.....buyer beware! > > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 8/17/2023 11:09 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi all > > Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? > > All of my searches come up with nothing. > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 14:49:58 2023 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 12:49:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> References: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, as Roy mentioned, the small wind situation in the 1-2 kW range right now is pretty grim - Tons of awful imported products with vastly inflated "ratings" flooding the market on Amazon, Ebay and AliBaba. I was particularly impressed (NOT) by a 900mm diameter VAWT that seems very popular there....rated at 8000 watts! (face palm). There's the Superwind 1250 out of Germany that looks legit: https://www.superwind.com/superwind-1250/ The AirForce 1 out of the UK looks possibly legit, though with 1.8m rotor they are counting on a cP of 0.33, which seems kinda high to me. https://futurenergy.co.uk/feshop/airforce-1-wind-turbines/ I have no experience with actually flying these products however. Good luck! Solar is cheap but boring! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 9:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? > > All of my searches come up with nothing. > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Thu Aug 17 14:50:34 2023 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 18:50:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1-2KW windturbine Message-ID: For those of you looking for a viable small wind turbine the Superwind might be worth consideration. I have no field experience with the Superwind products but have seen them in person. The craftsmanship is outstanding, and the system certainly appears to be designed and built to survive the elements. https://www.superwind.com/superwind-1250/ Sent from Mail for Windows -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 15:41:13 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 13:41:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Aug 17 15:57:29 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 12:57:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We installed a total of six different small vertical axis wind turbines in San Francisco at Crissy Field starting over 10 years ago. I'll paste a screenshot of the street view below. The systems were very well monitored but unfortunately the webpage is now down. Long story short, the inverters used more power (just standby loads) than the turbines produced. The best turbine produced annually about what a single 200 watt PV module would produce. So, don't install VAWT if you want any energy! [image: image.png] August Luminalt On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 12:42 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Im curious if anyone has actual measured data on a VAWT. > > It just seems like they are meat for the end of the worlders > > Jay > > On Aug 17, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Jay, as Roy mentioned, the small wind situation in the 1-2 kW range right > now is pretty grim - Tons of awful imported products with vastly inflated > "ratings" flooding the market on Amazon, Ebay and AliBaba. I was > particularly impressed (NOT) by a 900mm diameter VAWT that seems very > popular there....rated at 8000 watts! (face palm). > > There's the Superwind 1250 out of Germany that looks legit: > https://www.superwind.com/superwind-1250/ > > The AirForce 1 out of the UK looks possibly legit, though with 1.8m rotor > they are counting on a cP of 0.33, which seems kinda high to me. > https://futurenergy.co.uk/feshop/airforce-1-wind-turbines/ > > I have no experience with actually flying these products however. > > Good luck! Solar is cheap but boring! > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 9:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? >> >> All of my searches come up with nothing. >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 2180992 bytes Desc: not available URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Thu Aug 17 16:22:10 2023 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 16:22:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: That Superwind is a good turbine, has a good track record but it's a bit spendy for the size. They have targeted the commercial field and are doing well with the railroad and oil and gas industry. I tend to forget about it so I hadn't mentioned it before. As for VAWTs, there are still no commercially viable models on the market today. They have a terrible track record. They look cool, tend to be installed on college campuses and other highly visible locations, so the general public thinks that they must be good. What has been seen cannot be unseen! Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747www.four-winds-energy.com Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 8/17/2023 2:49 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay, as Roy mentioned, the small wind situation in the 1-2 kW range > right now is pretty grim - Tons of awful imported products with vastly > inflated "ratings" flooding the market on Amazon, Ebay and AliBaba. I > was particularly impressed (NOT) by a 900mm diameter VAWT that seems > very popular there....rated at 8000 watts! (face palm). > > There's the Superwind 1250 out of Germany that looks legit: > https://www.superwind.com/superwind-1250/ > > The AirForce 1 out of the UK looks possibly legit, though with 1.8m > rotor they are counting on a cP of 0.33, which seems kinda high to me. > https://futurenergy.co.uk/feshop/airforce-1-wind-turbines/ > > I have no experience with actually flying these products however. > > Good luck! Solar is cheap but boring! > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 9:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi all > > Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? > > All of my searches come up with nothing. > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 21:52:50 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 21:52:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I installed a Superwind 1000 at a mountaintop transmitter site on a 35’ tilt up tower to supplement 4000 watts of solar. That ridge has been tested for a wind farm and the wind speed was wind farm quality. I have data on that site on OpticsRE using a shunt with FlexnetDC. The transmitters site has a continuous 300 watt load and the single wind turbine has produced significant power at night and in stormy weather. The hourly averages for output have been as high as 800 watts and often will carry the 300 watt load for several hours at night. The amount of propane used for the backup generator was significantly reduced, justifying the expense of the Superwind and installation. Figured into the cost savings was the cost of hauling 100 Lb propane cylinders up the mountain on ATV’s and snowmobiles. Had only one down time in 3 years when I’ve storm temporarily froze the blade hub to the nacelle. John Blittersdorf On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:24 PM Roy Butler via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That Superwind is a good turbine, has a good track record but it's a bit > spendy for the size. > They have targeted the commercial field and are doing well with the > railroad and oil and gas industry. > > I tend to forget about it so I hadn't mentioned it before. > > As for VAWTs, there are still no commercially viable models on the market > today. They have a terrible track record. > They look cool, tend to be installed on college campuses and other highly > visible locations, so the general public > thinks that they must be good. > > What has been seen cannot be unseen! > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > > On 8/17/2023 2:49 PM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, as Roy mentioned, the small wind situation in the 1-2 kW range right > now is pretty grim - Tons of awful imported products with vastly inflated > "ratings" flooding the market on Amazon, Ebay and AliBaba. I was > particularly impressed (NOT) by a 900mm diameter VAWT that seems very > popular there....rated at 8000 watts! (face palm). > > There's the Superwind 1250 out of Germany that looks legit: > https://www.superwind.com/superwind-1250/ > > The AirForce 1 out of the UK looks possibly legit, though with 1.8m rotor > they are counting on a cP of 0.33, which seems kinda high to me. > https://futurenergy.co.uk/feshop/airforce-1-wind-turbines/ > > I have no experience with actually flying these products however. > > Good luck! Solar is cheap but boring! > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 9:11 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? >> >> All of my searches come up with nothing. >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image_123927839.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 1560350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Aug 18 00:12:57 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 22:12:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8e8d30cc-a465-c122-22a5-151ac860df8d@solarray.com> I've watched VAWT pop up like its a new idea every few years for almost the past 50 years.  VAWT is just basically a bad idea, as it's trying to make usable power too close to the ground.  I've never seen any that lasted very long, or matched their power claims. It can however be Kinetic art, which is what many folks find attractive, I think. Ray Walters On 8/17/2023 1:41 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Im curious if anyone has actual measured data on a VAWT. > > It just seems like they are meat for the end of the worlders > > Jay > From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Aug 18 10:18:58 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 07:18:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: <8e8d30cc-a465-c122-22a5-151ac860df8d@solarray.com> References: <8e8d30cc-a465-c122-22a5-151ac860df8d@solarray.com> Message-ID: Cat 4 Hillary could overspeed a few props. Better check those torques. I had an old Four Winds on my Sailboat that is still spinning I am told. Four Winds is long out of business but they were really tuff units and protected themselves reliably. Super loud and crank out the amps ! The storm below could impact weather severely in So Cal and minor effects up though Tahoe region and even PNW. Friday ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-17 9:12 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > I've watched VAWT pop up like its a new idea every few years for almost > the past 50 years. VAWT is just basically a bad idea, as it's trying > to make usable power too close to the ground. I've never seen any that > lasted very long, or matched their power claims. > > It can however be Kinetic art, which is what many folks find > attractive, I think. > > Ray Walters > > On 8/17/2023 1:41 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Im curious if anyone has actual measured data on a VAWT. >> >> It just seems like they are meat for the end of the worlders >> >> Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: d220f820.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38956 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: d45e9eb6.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 187805 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 11:50:32 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 08:50:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> References: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I'm sure you did all your due diligence on this location, wind rated output is generally at 25 mph and needs 5 to 7 just to produce a watt. The math is a cube root calculation. Small wind never really produced what people expected. You also need to be higher than anything around the unit and higher is better. Don't get me started on service they all need something done so make your tower easy to lower. Funtimes! On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 8:10 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all > > Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? > > All of my searches come up with nothing. > > Thanks in advance > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 14:48:55 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 13:48:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: <1B591011-0AF1-4B2A-87FF-BC2592BA5E7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree wit most of the comments. I have tested many VAWT none were any good. i had presented my study at the MIdwest Energy Fair, showing much higher trust on the turbine's and much lower performance. I just wanted to let you know that sume no performance at all. On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 10:52 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > I'm sure you did all your due diligence on this location, wind rated > output is generally at 25 mph and needs 5 to 7 just to produce a watt. The > math is a cube root calculation. Small wind never really produced what > people expected. You also need to be higher than anything around the unit > and higher is better. Don't get me started on service they all need > something done so make your tower easy to lower. > Funtimes! > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 8:10 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? >> >> All of my searches come up with nothing. >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Aug 18 15:38:04 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 14:38:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge warranty; you're on your own for comms devices if they send a new style HD to replace an older inverter Message-ID: <01c201d9d20b$821c5b70$86551250$@solarcentex.com> This week we got an HD style inverter as a warranty replacement for an older style SE inverter. OK, but normally when SE does this it sends a new HD-compatible Gateway device or cellular kit. Not this time and we were told that the device is no longer under warranty. It took far too long to explain that me as the installer should not have to buy a new Zigbee gateway because YOUR inverter failed. We've already had to rearrange conduit for the new inverter. Just another moment of angst with SolarEdge and wanted others to be aware as you start getting HD style inverters for your original SolarEdge RMAs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 18 17:36:05 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 17:36:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge warranty; you're on your own for comms devices if they send a new style HD to replace an older inverter In-Reply-To: <01c201d9d20b$821c5b70$86551250$@solarcentex.com> References: <01c201d9d20b$821c5b70$86551250$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: I have stopped processing warranty claims for SolarEdge. It's a nightmare. Fortunately, I never sold the brand so it's all other contractors' repair work for me. The last one I swapped under warranty died a few days later. Thanks for the heads up on the issue you mentioned about them sending new inverters instead of drop-in replacements. Just another reason not to take on these quagmires. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 3:39 PM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This week we got an HD style inverter as a warranty replacement for an > older style SE inverter. > > OK, but normally when SE does this it sends a new HD-compatible Gateway > device or cellular kit. Not this time and we were told that the device is > no longer under warranty. It took far too long to explain that me as the > installer should not have to buy a new Zigbee gateway because YOUR inverter > failed. We’ve already had to rearrange conduit for the new inverter. > > Just another moment of angst with SolarEdge and wanted others to be aware > as you start getting HD style inverters for your original SolarEdge RMAs. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Aug 18 23:25:07 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2023 03:25:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wind machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve got a customer with a Pika still running, maybe three customers, actually… 😎 The one client made his own brush holder ! If that’s what you need, I can get you in contact with him. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > On Aug 17, 2023, at 12:23, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay and Roy, > Join me on my crusade to get the PIKA T701 back into production. > It was the best I ever owned but had to sell it to a customer when > PIKA stopped production. > Still lots of their 100 units produced are out there somewhere. I just > found one currently running > in a very poor wind site that the owner is willing to sell. I can't > wait to get it back on my tower! > Specs are still found on NAZ website. Google PIKA T701 > > John Blittersdorf > > > >> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 12:04 PM Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Yeah just kinda of sad they are gone. >> >> Like others, a friend called looking to replace a very old whisper power. >> >> Ok more solar it is. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Aug 17, 2023, at 9:51 AM, Roy Butler via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  Good luck with that search Jay. >> >> Most of the companies that manufactured machines in that size range went out of business quite some time ago. >> Unfortunately, lots of low quality equipment has filled that void.....buyer beware! >> >> >> Roy Butler >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC >> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 >> 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com >> >> Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. >> >> “The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.” >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> >> On 8/17/2023 11:09 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Hi all >> >> Is anyone making a good quality 1-2kw wind machine? >> >> All of my searches come up with nothing. >> >> Thanks in advance >> Jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Sun Aug 20 12:56:38 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 10:56:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2HP ECM booster pump Message-ID: <001601d9d387$4997ef80$dcc7ce80$@solarwork.com> Hey all you wise ones! I am looking for a recommendation on a 1/2HP ECM domestic water booster pump source if one exists. Currently the existing 3/4HP pump it is a 120 VAC but could be 230VAC. They don't need 3/4HP in this small cabin & not irrigating the vegetation. Thanks in advance Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 www.greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 13:32:23 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 10:32:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2HP ECM booster pump In-Reply-To: <001601d9d387$4997ef80$dcc7ce80$@solarwork.com> References: <001601d9d387$4997ef80$dcc7ce80$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana, wrenches Grunfus makes 120 vac booster pumps, MX Series as l recall they are a variable speed tech Fun times On Sun, Aug 20, 2023, 9:56 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey all you wise ones! > > > > I am looking for a recommendation on a 1/2HP ECM domestic water booster > pump source if one exists. Currently the existing 3/4HP pump it is a 120 > VAC but could be 230VAC. They don’t need 3/4HP in this small cabin & not > irrigating the vegetation. > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, > Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > www.greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 20 14:25:51 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 11:25:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1/2HP ECM booster pump In-Reply-To: References: <001601d9d387$4997ef80$dcc7ce80$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: How is the quality (sediment) of the water? Most of the Scala1 and Scala2 series will not last more than 3 years without really good filtration. I have lost a few to rainwater also.... The MQ series is not made anymore so check for warranty. Nice quiet pumps but.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-20 10:32 am, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Dana, wrenches > Grunfus makes 120 vac booster pumps, MX Series as l recall they are a > variable speed tech > Fun times > > On Sun, Aug 20, 2023, 9:56 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Hey all you wise ones! >> >> I am looking for a recommendation on a 1/2HP ECM domestic water >> booster pump source if one exists. Currently the existing 3/4HP pump >> it is a 120 VAC but could be 230VAC. They don't need 3/4HP in this >> small cabin & not irrigating the vegetation. >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, >> Inc. >> >> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> www.greatsolarworks.com [1] www.solarwork.com [2] >> >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >> >> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.greatsolarworks.com/ [2] http://www.solarwork.com/ [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Aug 21 02:16:22 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 02:16:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling PV Inverters and Generators Message-ID: Are there any options out there similar to the Enphase System Controller MID that directly couple the AC outputs of a PV inverter and generator to simultaneously power loads? And can any do it with or without batteries involved? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkatz at tamaracksolar.com Mon Aug 21 21:36:29 2023 From: dkatz at tamaracksolar.com (David Katz) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 01:36:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian power supply Message-ID: Does anyone have a power supply board for an old Outback Radian 8048. It's the blue board in the upper left of the chassis. It needs to be for the 8048, not the 8048A. Please contact me off list if you have one you would like to sell. Thanks David Katz Get Outlook for iOS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 22:21:55 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 22:21:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silfab Message-ID: Hi All, I have heard mixed comments about Silfab modules. If anyone has experience with these panels, I would appreciate any feedback available. Thanks, *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Aug 21 22:44:45 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 20:44:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silfab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For real I was about to ask the same question for a friend that got a quote with Sulfab mods…any feedback greatly appreciated! Brian > On Aug 21, 2023, at 8:22 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hi All, > I have heard mixed comments about Silfab modules. If anyone has experience with these panels, I would appreciate any feedback available. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Aug 22 10:12:51 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 07:12:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c7a8f82-97cd-ee99-4619-678a11b730a6@psln.com> David,         I don't have your part and it doesn't look like Zonna has it either, though a phone call might be good to confirm: https://www.zonnaenergy.com/solar/replacement-parts/outback/gs-series/outback-power-gs8048-parts/?8060_device=tablet They claim they can fix components also, though you probably need it fixed yesterday. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 8/21/2023 6:36 PM, David Katz via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone have a power supply board for an old Outback Radian 8048. > It's the blue board in the upper left of the chassis. It needs to be > for the 8048, not the 8048A. > Please contact me off list if you have one you would like to sell. > Thanks > David Katz > > Get Outlook for iOS > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonl at mendocinosolar.com Tue Aug 22 11:40:31 2023 From: jasonl at mendocinosolar.com (jasonl at mendocinosolar.com) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 08:40:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silfab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22e240f73a3b7909a9e2b5a9f3036fef@mendocinosolar.com> Hi Howie, We have installed probably 150 jobs with Silfab modules. First their 330W, then their 370 half cell modules and now their 400 watt modules. We have had good experiences with them and there relatively inexpensive for an A tier module. They manufacture them in Washington state and the company is based in Canada. This helps fill our priorities of sourcing products from North America as much as possible. We have had two modules with issues. One being a module that dropped out about mid day, and the second having a partial voltage reading. I troubleshot both and found that Silfab was decent at responding with a warranty credit for replacement through our supplier. I would say that, overall, the value Silfab brings is quite high while also being decently priced. Jason Lord Mendocino Solar Service On 2023-08-21 7:21 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > I have heard mixed comments about Silfab modules. If anyone has > experience with these panels, I would appreciate any feedback > available. > Thanks, > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From wstahle at pacific.net Tue Aug 22 12:32:10 2023 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 09:32:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silfab PVEL scorecard In-Reply-To: <22e240f73a3b7909a9e2b5a9f3036fef@mendocinosolar.com> References: <22e240f73a3b7909a9e2b5a9f3036fef@mendocinosolar.com> Message-ID: For additional info on module performance in testing check out PVEL test results PV Evolution Labs (PVEL) is the globally recognized leader in photovoltaic module testing. Since our founding in 2010, PVEL has defined the long-term reliability standards for PV https://scorecard.pvel.com Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net > On Aug 22, 2023, at 8:40 AM, Jason Lord via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Howie, > > We have installed probably 150 jobs with Silfab modules. First their 330W, then their 370 half cell modules and now their 400 watt modules. We have had good experiences with them and there relatively inexpensive for an A tier module. They manufacture them in Washington state and the company is based in Canada. This helps fill our priorities of sourcing products from North America as much as possible. > We have had two modules with issues. One being a module that dropped out about mid day, and the second having a partial voltage reading. > I troubleshot both and found that Silfab was decent at responding with a warranty credit for replacement through our supplier. I would say that, overall, the value Silfab brings is quite high while also being decently priced. > > Jason Lord > Mendocino Solar Service > > > On 2023-08-21 7:21 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Hi All, >> I have heard mixed comments about Silfab modules. If anyone has >> experience with these panels, I would appreciate any feedback >> available. >> Thanks, >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Aug 22 12:46:21 2023 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 09:46:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Silfab In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <293D4C7F-9211-4DFF-8444-6A485D68F2E8@me.com> While it’s too early to gauge longevity on production output I was impressed with the build quality and appearance. Additionally, their plastic stacking assemblies for keeping them palletized until installation are the best I’ve ever experienced. They line up easily if needing to re-stack, stay in place once gravity is at play and easily detach with a flick of your shoe when handling by yourself. Ultimately it’s a reasonable amount of extra plastic waste to the landfill but better than a broken module. I know plastic aides aren’t something to judge a module by but was pleasantly surprised to discover that someone was looking out for the installer experience as well. Nick > On Aug 21, 2023, at 7:21 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > I have heard mixed comments about Silfab modules. If anyone has experience with these panels, I would appreciate any feedback available. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 22 13:28:50 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 13:28:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Record Low Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Is there a good source for finding record low temperatures in various areas? We are designing a project that has very different temperature characteristics than we are used to. Ashrae.org was recommended as a source. Does anyone know where on the site to look? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 22 13:47:08 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 13:47:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Record Low In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Drake, here you go ASHRAE climatic design conditions 2009/2013/2017/2021 (ashrae-meteo.info) Chris On 8/22/2023 1:28 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > Is there a good source for finding record low temperatures in various > areas? We are designing a project that has very different temperature > characteristics than we are used to. > Ashrae.org was recommended as a source. Does anyone know where on the > site to look? > Thank you, > Drake > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /CO Master Electrician’s License 4526/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danny at sesre.com Tue Aug 22 13:53:56 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 17:53:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Record Low In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I still use the SolarABC’s reference map, pulls the ASHRAE data. Good for the US only. https://energyresearch.ucf.edu/solar-certification/solar-reference-map/ Not record lows, but I have used this for years as the design low temperature for string sizing. They claim the data is outdated, but with climate change I feel safe that the Extreme minimum temperature is likely to only go up 😉 -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 VP of Engineering Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 1:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Christopher Warfel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Record Low Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Drake, here you go ASHRAE climatic design conditions 2009/2013/2017/2021 (ashrae-meteo.info) Chris On 8/22/2023 1:28 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches, Is there a good source for finding record low temperatures in various areas? We are designing a project that has very different temperature characteristics than we are used to. Ashrae.org was recommended as a source. Does anyone know where on the site to look? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:image001.jpg at 01D9D500.181C6290] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From stevemccarney54 at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 19:09:25 2023 From: stevemccarney54 at gmail.com (Steve McCarney) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2023 17:09:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Record Low In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi For USA and global weatherbase.com will have record hi and lo temps as well as a lot of other helpful climate info given monthly and annual. No solar radiation tho. steve mccarney - sunny day llc On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 11:54 AM Daniel Young via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I still use the SolarABC’s reference map, pulls the ASHRAE data. Good for > the US only. > > > > https://energyresearch.ucf.edu/solar-certification/solar-reference-map/ > > > > Not record lows, but I have used this for years as the design low > temperature for string sizing. > > > > They claim the data is outdated, but with climate change I feel safe that > the Extreme minimum temperature is likely to only go up 😉 > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > > VP of Engineering > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 22, 2023 1:47 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* Christopher Warfel > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Record Low > > > > *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > > > > Hi Drake, here you go > > > > ASHRAE climatic design conditions 2009/2013/2017/2021 (ashrae-meteo.info) > > > > > Chris > > On 8/22/2023 1:28 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Is there a good source for finding record low temperatures in various > areas? We are designing a project that has very different temperature > characteristics than we are used to. > > > > Ashrae.org was recommended as a source. Does anyone know where on the site > to look? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Drake > > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *CO Master Electrician’s License 4526* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 23 20:16:11 2023 From: billbrooks7 at sbcglobal.net (William Brooks) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2023 00:16:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Record Low In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <831453072.2160606.1692836171066@mail.yahoo.com> The mean extreme minimum dry bulb temperature is on that database, but you have to look for it. They have not substantively changed. Bill. On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 04:05:58 PM PDT, Steve McCarney via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi  For USA and global weatherbase.com will have record hi and lo temps as well as a lot of other helpful climate info given monthly and annual.  No solar radiation tho. steve mccarney - sunny day llc On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 11:54 AM Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote: I still use the SolarABC’s reference map, pulls the ASHRAE data. Good for the US only.   https://energyresearch.ucf.edu/solar-certification/solar-reference-map/   Not record lows, but I have used this for years as the design low temperature for string sizing.   They claim the data is outdated, but with climate change I feel safe that the Extreme minimum temperature is likely to only go up😉 --   Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 VP of Engineering Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 1:47 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Christopher Warfel Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Record Low   | | Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. |   Hi Drake, here you go   ASHRAE climatic design conditions 2009/2013/2017/2021 (ashrae-meteo.info)   Chris On 8/22/2023 1:28 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: Hello Wrenches,   Is there a good source for finding record low temperatures in various areas? We are designing a project that has very different temperature characteristics than we are used to.   Ashrae.org was recommended as a source. Does anyone know where on the site to look?   Thank you,   Drake   Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional   --   _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org  --                                          Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                                             401-466-8978 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Thu Aug 24 16:23:02 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2023 14:23:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? Message-ID: Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer exists." Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 17:37:52 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:37:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mick, Unlike others in the list, I am still mostly happily using SolarEdge for my straight grid tied roof mounted arrays. There have been significant hiccups with service, although not so much recently, and the failure rate is higher than I like, but it hasn't been dramatic for me. For systems that require RSD, I have not found any other equipment as easy and consistent as SolarEdge, although admittedly I really don't like switching technologies unless there is a really good reason or in forced to. Also, I've been very anti micro inverters for more than a decade, partly fueled by Enphase's early major failure rate and communications dysfunction and probably largely fueled by my prejudice towards the technology. I also have not been inclined to use their battery based systems, even though their architecture seemed smart at the time. And I'm also fading on using them for AC coupling because I've had some significant issues using them that way, and other (DC coupled) systems have come a long way. All that being said, I certainly would move away from RSD systems if there wasn't a need for them. Therefore, I would look at other string inverters like SMA ( I haven't used them much at all recently), or perhaps Solis (haven't used them at all), which I believe respond well to frequency shifting. And, not knowing your circumstances, I might suggest DC coupled systems instead. There are many good options out there at this point. Sorry this wasn't more on point. Howie On Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 4:23 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius > string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) > This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done > much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer > exists." > > Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid > opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA > has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can > be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV > inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift > from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units > would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC > coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in > finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this > gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been > highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pieter at offgridenterprises.org Thu Aug 24 17:41:02 2023 From: pieter at offgridenterprises.org (pieter offgridenterprises.org) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2023 21:41:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fronius is certainly having issues, many of their products are out of stock. We are eight weeks into trying to resolve a service issue, and cannot get parts. Historically this sort of problem would have been resolved in less than one week. I suggest that looking at an alternative would be advisable. If this downward trend continues with Fronius, support after the sale will be a problem for the installer and the customer. I am having good experiences with other manufacturers but have not used any of them in an AC bussed configuration, so for that reason I will not suggest an alternate brand. Pieter Huebner Project Manager Off grid Enterprises From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 3:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mick Abraham Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer exists." Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 21:59:29 2023 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2023 21:59:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was trying to expand on an older fronius install and asked my greentech rep about when they might have their UL1741SB line out and he said he “hadn’t heard from fronius in a while and wouldn’t be surprised if fronius wasn’t a company in a year or two”. So more or less the same info you heard Mick On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 5:42 PM pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches wrote: > Fronius is certainly having issues, many of their products are out of > stock. We are eight weeks into trying to resolve a service issue, and > cannot get parts. Historically this sort of problem would have been > resolved in less than one week. I suggest that looking at an alternative > would be advisable. If this downward trend continues with Fronius, support > after the sale will be a problem for the installer and the customer. I am > having good experiences with other manufacturers but have not used any of > them in an AC bussed configuration, so for that reason I will not suggest > an alternate brand. > > Pieter Huebner > > Project Manager > > Off grid Enterprises > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2023 3:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Mick Abraham > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? > > > > Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius > string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) > This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done > much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer > exists." > > > > Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid > opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA > has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can > be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV > inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift > from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units > would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC > coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in > finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this > gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been > highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? > > > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman (he/him) Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator www.AutonomousEnergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 22:37:56 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2023 19:37:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, Wrenches You may have dodged a bullet with fronius, personally l have not had a good experience with them, yes going back to the beginning with the IG's, put the word out for SMA -41's they are not easy to get but are programable. Just have to ask is there a particular reason why you are going AC coupled? Pre-existing conduit I guess. Funtimes On Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 1:23 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius > string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) > This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done > much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer > exists." > > Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid > opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA > has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can > be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV > inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift > from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units > would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC > coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in > finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this > gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been > highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Aug 25 06:55:47 2023 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 06:55:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, I would avoid trying to use a manufacture that has little NO support OR product availability. IF your using the Schnieder Pros, I would suggest you consider the 600/100 CC. This product is more then capable of handling 7kW of input. They are available, compatible w/ their (Schnieder’s) battery monitoring AND offer a system that is able to “talk” to itself. Off grid should be uniform in design so clients/caretakers and you, have little adding to confusion IF/when their is an issue. Lord knows Im not saying there won’t be an issue w/ Schnieder’s product, but we DO have a product, tech support & other persons w/in the company we are able to call on. AC coupling, for off grid while we have Hi V CCs available is for me a thing of the past. My$0.02 worth TUMP > On Aug 24, 2023, at 4:23 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer exists." > > Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Aug 25 07:14:33 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 07:14:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fronius was dead to me after the IG failure rate and customer dissatisfaction that came from it. I never sold SolarEdge, and I am glad I didn't for the same high failure rate issue. Today I am swapping out so many HD Wave inverters, dealing with the 3G modem shutdowns, and constantly fighting with SolarEdge support on ridiculous diagnostic requirements and even just gaining access to site monitoring for new clients. I don't see any improvement in hardware reliability, either. I just replaced an HD Wave with an RMA unit that died 2 days later! I feel like I'm constantly the bearer of bad news, and I don't like being in that position, even though I have no fault in the matter. I guess some might call me an Enphase fanboy, but I am liking Sol-Ark for a DC coupled solution. The 15K I think has solved some of the unbalanced 120V load issues that were reported with the 12K (correct me if I am wrong), and the 15K is just so versatile. Yes, Enphase had a very high failure rate with the M190 and others. And don't get me started about the Envoy-R falures. But those issues are long behind us. I have 40 M215s above my head right now at my home office that were installed 10 years ago. They have been removed and reinstalled for a new roof and went through 2 major hurricanes. Not a single issue other than a blown fuse in the rooftop SolaDeck aggregator. The reliability of the later generation microinverters is remarkable in my opinion. Do we have some micro swaps? Sure. But they are quick and easy and clients are delighted that we can advance swap them from inventory. In contrast, I can't afford to keep a full inventory of SolarEdge products for advance swaps. The Enphase 3 and 10 batteries surely have some serious communication issues that frustrated me, but the 5P promises to fix that with wired comms, and just like the rooftop microinverters I expect that subsequent generations of Enphase batteries will prove to improve reliability. That's the culture at Enphase, and it doesn't seem to be the same at SolarEdge. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but the point is that Fronius was on a downward spiral with the IG and even IG Plus, and they never recovered. Despite some of the niceties of their Primo line, installers that got burned never regained confidence. I would not be surprised if they go down. They probably should have rebranded at a minimum. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 5:39 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Mick, > Unlike others in the list, I am still mostly happily using SolarEdge for > my straight grid tied roof mounted arrays. There have been significant > hiccups with service, although not so much recently, and the failure rate > is higher than I like, but it hasn't been dramatic for me. For systems that > require RSD, I have not found any other equipment as easy and consistent as > SolarEdge, although admittedly I really don't like switching technologies > unless there is a really good reason or in forced to. Also, I've been very > anti micro inverters for more than a decade, partly fueled by Enphase's > early major failure rate and communications dysfunction and probably > largely fueled by my prejudice towards the technology. > I also have not been inclined to use their battery based systems, even > though their architecture seemed smart at the time. And I'm also fading on > using them for AC coupling because I've had some significant issues using > them that way, and other (DC coupled) systems have come a long way. > All that being said, I certainly would move away from RSD systems if there > wasn't a need for them. Therefore, I would look at other string inverters > like SMA ( I haven't used them much at all recently), or perhaps Solis > (haven't used them at all), which I believe respond well to frequency > shifting. > And, not knowing your circumstances, I might suggest DC coupled systems > instead. There are many good options out there at this point. > Sorry this wasn't more on point. > Howie > > On Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 4:23 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius >> string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) >> This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done >> much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer >> exists." >> >> Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid >> opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA >> has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can >> be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV >> inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift >> from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units >> would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC >> coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in >> finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this >> gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been >> highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? >> >> Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> ᐧ >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Fri Aug 25 08:40:32 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 12:40:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] .5 C charge rate for LiFePO4 Message-ID: Is it correct to size an PV array to provide .5C for a Lithium Iron bank? 130Ah x .5 = 65 65A = ~ 3.5kw PV DC Seems overkill for one battery. Any advice is appreciated. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Aug 25 08:52:50 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 07:52:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001701d9d753$0e912170$2bb36450$@solarcentex.com> I like your summary, especially regarding SolarEdge but like a teenager stuck in the Apple iPhone ecosystem, it has been hard to fully break away from it to Enphase. I have liked Fronius very much and found their IG to be good and their Primo’s to be better. Having a 15KW string inverter that is 1,000-volt design rated is amazing IMO. Perfect for our ground arrays. Tech support has always been good to me, too. Hope they continue on, From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 6:15 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? Fronius was dead to me after the IG failure rate and customer dissatisfaction that came from it. I never sold SolarEdge, and I am glad I didn't for the same high failure rate issue. Today I am swapping out so many HD Wave inverters, dealing with the 3G modem shutdowns, and constantly fighting with SolarEdge support on ridiculous diagnostic requirements and even just gaining access to site monitoring for new clients. I don't see any improvement in hardware reliability, either. I just replaced an HD Wave with an RMA unit that died 2 days later! I feel like I'm constantly the bearer of bad news, and I don't like being in that position, even though I have no fault in the matter. I guess some might call me an Enphase fanboy, but I am liking Sol-Ark for a DC coupled solution. The 15K I think has solved some of the unbalanced 120V load issues that were reported with the 12K (correct me if I am wrong), and the 15K is just so versatile. Yes, Enphase had a very high failure rate with the M190 and others. And don't get me started about the Envoy-R falures. But those issues are long behind us. I have 40 M215s above my head right now at my home office that were installed 10 years ago. They have been removed and reinstalled for a new roof and went through 2 major hurricanes. Not a single issue other than a blown fuse in the rooftop SolaDeck aggregator. The reliability of the later generation microinverters is remarkable in my opinion. Do we have some micro swaps? Sure. But they are quick and easy and clients are delighted that we can advance swap them from inventory. In contrast, I can't afford to keep a full inventory of SolarEdge products for advance swaps. The Enphase 3 and 10 batteries surely have some serious communication issues that frustrated me, but the 5P promises to fix that with wired comms, and just like the rooftop microinverters I expect that subsequent generations of Enphase batteries will prove to improve reliability. That's the culture at Enphase, and it doesn't seem to be the same at SolarEdge. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but the point is that Fronius was on a downward spiral with the IG and even IG Plus, and they never recovered. Despite some of the niceties of their Primo line, installers that got burned never regained confidence. I would not be surprised if they go down. They probably should have rebranded at a minimum. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 5:39 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Mick, Unlike others in the list, I am still mostly happily using SolarEdge for my straight grid tied roof mounted arrays. There have been significant hiccups with service, although not so much recently, and the failure rate is higher than I like, but it hasn't been dramatic for me. For systems that require RSD, I have not found any other equipment as easy and consistent as SolarEdge, although admittedly I really don't like switching technologies unless there is a really good reason or in forced to. Also, I've been very anti micro inverters for more than a decade, partly fueled by Enphase's early major failure rate and communications dysfunction and probably largely fueled by my prejudice towards the technology. I also have not been inclined to use their battery based systems, even though their architecture seemed smart at the time. And I'm also fading on using them for AC coupling because I've had some significant issues using them that way, and other (DC coupled) systems have come a long way. All that being said, I certainly would move away from RSD systems if there wasn't a need for them. Therefore, I would look at other string inverters like SMA ( I haven't used them much at all recently), or perhaps Solis (haven't used them at all), which I believe respond well to frequency shifting. And, not knowing your circumstances, I might suggest DC coupled systems instead. There are many good options out there at this point. Sorry this wasn't more on point. Howie On Thu, Aug 24, 2023, 4:23 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer exists." Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 09:32:51 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 07:32:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] .5 C charge rate for LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, I think LiFePO can handle these high charge rates, but you don't have to provide them for battery health. They are happy at lower C rates too. On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 6:41 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Is it correct to size an PV array to provide .5C for a Lithium Iron bank? > 130Ah x .5 = 65 > 65A = ~ 3.5kw PV DC > Seems overkill for one battery. > Any advice is appreciated. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Fri Aug 25 09:57:40 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 06:57:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] .5 C charge rate for LiFePO4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For Rolls/Surrette LFPs, .5 is the suggested max, but on a 130ah bank, 13 to 65 amps is acceptable. We'd like to see it around 20-40a. Remember, if you go with lower charge rates, this increases charge time, and if you have batteries in parallel, having a bit higher rate gives you more time for the absorb cycle to balance the bank, especially if it's an open-loop comms system. If open-loop and you have 2, 3, or 4 parallel strings, the longer 30-60 mins absorb timers allow for better balancing between the parallel strings. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 6:33 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > I think LiFePO can handle these high charge rates, but you don't have to > provide them for battery health. They are happy at lower C rates too. > > On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 6:41 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Is it correct to size an PV array to provide .5C for a Lithium Iron bank? >> 130Ah x .5 = 65 >> 65A = ~ 3.5kw PV DC >> Seems overkill for one battery. >> Any advice is appreciated. >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Aug 25 11:27:05 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 08:27:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think Fronius has left the building. The reason I know is they stopped sending me AFCI repairs about 2 years ago. There was not any support from their installers in remote places like the Sierra range. I would second Tump on picking a good company with real money and products. Below is a new one this fall. https://shop.se.com/us/en/schneiderhome Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [4]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [5] [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-25 3:55 am, Tump via RE-wrenches wrote: > Mick, I would avoid trying to use a manufacture that has little NO > support OR product availability. > IF your using the Schnieder Pros, I would suggest you consider the > 600/100 CC. This product is more then capable of handling 7kW of > input. They are available, compatible w/ their (Schnieder's) battery > monitoring AND offer a system that is able to "talk" to itself. > Off grid should be uniform in design so clients/caretakers and you, > have little adding to confusion IF/when their is an issue. > Lord knows Im not saying there won't be an issue w/ Schnieder's > product, but we DO have a product, tech support & other persons w/in > the company we are able to call on. > AC coupling, for off grid while we have Hi V CCs available is for me a > thing of the past. My$0.02 worth TUMP > >> On Aug 24, 2023, at 4:23 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius >> string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 >> hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch >> hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me >> "Fronius no longer exists." >> >> Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid >> opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius >> USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters >> that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for >> the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a >> frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). >> Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a >> white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost >> three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. >> Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be >> evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with >> SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? >> >> Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com [1] >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> ᐧ _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> Tump [2]3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net [3] >> >> Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ >> _ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California_ >> _ 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> _ >> _ __Blair "TUMP" May_ >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> _ __ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"_ >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> _ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abrahamsolar.com/ [2] blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:Tump at swnl.net [3] blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Fri Aug 25 12:44:56 2023 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 09:44:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting. Fronius has a strong presence in Canada with good tech support. We also have a very low failure rate - can't remember the last time we replaced one. There were some supply issues earlier this year but we are receiving inverters and parts. They also have a good rep for low failure and good service in Australia and Europe. Not sure why the US gets short shrift. *Eric Smiley,* Design Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 08:27, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think Fronius has left the building. The reason I know is they stopped > sending me AFCI repairs about 2 years ago. There was not any support from > their installers in remote places like the Sierra range. > > I would second Tump on picking a good company with real money and > products. Below is a new one this fall. > > https://shop.se.com/us/en/schneiderhome > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-08-25 3:55 am, Tump via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Mick, I would avoid trying to use a manufacture that has little NO support > OR product availability. > IF your using the Schnieder Pros, I would suggest you consider the 600/100 > CC. This product is more then capable of handling 7kW of input. They are > available, compatible w/ their (Schnieder's) battery monitoring AND offer a > system that is able to "talk" to itself. > Off grid should be uniform in design so clients/caretakers and you, have > little adding to confusion IF/when their is an issue. > Lord knows Im not saying there won't be an issue w/ Schnieder's product, > but we DO have a product, tech support & other persons w/in the company we > are able to call on. > AC coupling, for off grid while we have Hi V CCs available is for me a > thing of the past. My$0.02 worth TUMP > > On Aug 24, 2023, at 4:23 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius > string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) > This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done > much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer > exists." > > Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid > opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA > has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can > be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV > inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift > from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units > would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC > coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in > finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this > gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been > highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump3391 at gmail.com <3391 at gmail.com>* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Connell.Christopher at fronius.com Fri Aug 25 16:28:58 2023 From: Connell.Christopher at fronius.com (Connell Christopher) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 20:28:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Mick, Fronius USA is alive and well. In fact, we are expanding, and aren't going anywhere. To help you get a product Mick, call our general line, (877)376-6487 and we can help you track down a Primo 6.0-1 for your application. We will also be bringing new products to the market very soon. Best regards, Chris Connell Head of Solutions Management Solutions Management Solar Energy Connell.Christopher at fronius.com Fronius USA 6797 Fronius Drive, Portage, IN, 46368, USA https://www.fronius.com/en-us/usa/solar-energy/installers-partners       This message transmitted is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed (recipient) and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, it is prohibited to review, to copy, to retransmit this message or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete this message from any computer. Any use of this message without approval of the sender means your responsibility according to law. From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sat Aug 26 08:41:09 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2023 08:41:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01d9d81a$976c0b50$c64421f0$@mindspring.com> Mick Shame on the Greentech folks. Fronius is alive, well, has great inverters and their customer support is good. While most of our systems have been battery based for the last several year, when we need to do grid tied, Fronius is the go to product. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 4:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Mick Abraham Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer exists." Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Sat Aug 26 11:29:48 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2023 08:29:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: <000a01d9d81a$976c0b50$c64421f0$@mindspring.com> References: <000a01d9d81a$976c0b50$c64421f0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: If you’re dealing with PG&E Utility, Fronius decided a few years ago not to play along anymore. PGE constantly changes the requirements for the inverter manufacturers, and what they call Smart Inverters. from what I understand this is mostly for solar curtailment when the grid is saturated. I think Fronius got sick of chasing PGE around the mulberry bush with their devious, excessive anti-solar obstacles. So under other Utility jurisdictions, I think Fronius is a fine choice. Their uptime is impressive, tech support is quick, knowledgeable and professional, and their PV Arc fault apparently isn’t latching. On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 5:41 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Mick > > > > Shame on the Greentech folks. Fronius is alive, well, has great > inverters and their customer support is good. While most of our systems > have been battery based for the last several year, when we need to do grid > tied, Fronius is the go to product. > > > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2023 4:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Mick Abraham > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? > > > > Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius > string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) > This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done > much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer > exists." > > > > Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid > opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA > has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can > be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV > inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift > from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units > would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC > coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in > finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this > gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been > highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? > > > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > [image: Image removed by sender.]ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Aug 26 11:40:44 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2023 11:40:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: <000a01d9d81a$976c0b50$c64421f0$@mindspring.com> References: <000a01d9d81a$976c0b50$c64421f0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: It is so interesting hearing about different markets and what products are popular and well supported. My impressions of the Florida market is that it's 85% Enphase, 10% SolarEdge, and 5% Other. I'm not a distributor, so that's just my view from the bottom, but there isn't a significant competitor left in my corner of Florida offering anything other than Enphase except for some niche backup scenarios. Enphase absolutely dominates. And I know SolarEdge is far out of favor because I am contacted constantly by desperate system owners who can't find service anywhere it seems. I can't remember the last time I saw a Fronius, and even SMA seems few and far between after dominating in the pre-Enphase era. I might take those percentages back because Tesla is of-and-on active and I can't really gauge what market share they have here, but I don't run into too many service scenarios for Tesla. Maybe that speaks to reliability or maybe people just realize they are stuck going directly to Tesla for service, particularly on batteries. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Sat, Aug 26, 2023 at 8:42 AM Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Mick > > > > Shame on the Greentech folks. Fronius is alive, well, has great > inverters and their customer support is good. While most of our systems > have been battery based for the last several year, when we need to do grid > tied, Fronius is the go to product. > > > > Thx > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2023 4:23 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Mick Abraham > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? > > > > Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius > string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) > This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done > much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer > exists." > > > > Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid > opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA > has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can > be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV > inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift > from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units > would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC > coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in > finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this > gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been > highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? > > > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat Aug 26 19:56:45 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2023 17:56:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? Message-ID: Hi, Team and >>gosh<< I must apologize to Connell.Christopher at fronius.com and to Fronius. I'm sorry that I inadvertently fueled an untrue rumor about Fronius USA. Chris, I should have tracked you down for the correct answer before putting my question on the List. I will also correct this with my Greentech branch manager on Monday, Heaven permitting. I freaked out when my Greentech rep told me Fronius had left the building but I'm glad I don't have to re-shop the string inverter component after all. I did an AC coupled off grid project using Fronius Symo in 2019: No Drama, No Trauma. For those Wrenches who've wondered, "Why, Mick, why..." about off grid AC coupling: most of the rooftops that need PV for my 2023 opportunity will be inconvenient for running DC wires to the battery location. These same rooftops, however, will have AC sub-panels close by, so I had an "A-ha, negative loads!" moment. At least some of the PV will run through a charge controller in any case. I think the wattage from any AC coupled string inverters won't show up on Schneider Insight, so that's another reason for me to heed those Wrenches who suggest DC coupling for all of the PV. Thanks to all who've contributed to this thread. I think the thread should now extinguish & moderator Michael may wish to delete it from the archives. I appreciate accessing the "hive mind" on various 2023 PV inverters and again, Chris, I'm sorry to have caused a temporary smudge on Fronius USA. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Aug 27 13:37:37 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2023 10:37:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mick, I would look at the workings of the Schneider back-up control switch and it's internal watt node. Recent webinar training. This will allow AC coupled power to show on Insight. I am not advocating it though, certainly not for offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-26 4:56 pm, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, Team and >>gosh<< I must apologize to > Connell.Christopher at fronius.com and to Fronius. > I'm sorry that I inadvertently fueled an untrue rumor about Fronius > USA. Chris, I should have tracked you down for the correct answer > before putting my question on the List. I will also correct this with > my Greentech branch manager on Monday, Heaven permitting. > > I freaked out when my Greentech rep told me Fronius had left the > building but I'm glad I don't have to re-shop the string inverter > component after all. I did an AC coupled off grid project using Fronius > Symo in 2019: No Drama, No Trauma. > > For those Wrenches who've wondered, "Why, Mick, why..." about off grid > AC coupling: most of the rooftops that need PV for my 2023 opportunity > will be inconvenient for running DC wires to the battery location. > These same rooftops, however, will have AC sub-panels close by, so I > had an "A-ha, negative loads!" moment. At least some of the PV will run > through a charge controller in any case. I think the wattage from any > AC coupled string inverters won't show up on Schneider Insight, so > that's another reason for me to heed those Wrenches who suggest DC > coupling for all of the PV. > > Thanks to all who've contributed to this thread. I think the thread > should now extinguish & moderator Michael may wish to delete it from > the archives. I appreciate accessing the "hive mind" on various 2023 PV > inverters and again, Chris, I'm sorry to have caused a temporary smudge > on Fronius USA. The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > > www.abrahamsolar.com [1] > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abrahamsolar.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Connell.Christopher at fronius.com Mon Aug 28 16:21:00 2023 From: Connell.Christopher at fronius.com (Connell Christopher) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 20:21:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e547ded47954675b020e951635208f2@fronius.com> Hello Mick, Thank you for the kind words, and if you need anything let me know. Sustainable regards, Chris Connell Head of Solutions Management Solar Energy Connell.Christopher at fronius.com From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Aug 29 09:53:44 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 13:53:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums Message-ID: If anyone has had issues with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please contact me off list But , feel free to comment here if needed. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 12:29:02 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 09:29:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, wrenches It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere Fun times On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If anyone has had issues with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please > contact me off list > But , feel free to comment here if needed. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Aug 29 19:53:03 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 23:53:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Leaking from somewhere mid way in the battery case I’m guessing. The liquid followed a cable down to the BMS board and corroded it badly. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Aug 29, 2023, at 10:30, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote:  Jeremy, wrenches It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere Fun times On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: If anyone has had issues with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please contact me off list But , feel free to comment here if needed. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 20:02:57 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 18:02:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B572F3D-5A00-4478-81C7-AAE38C187AEA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 20:49:05 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 20:49:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: <5B572F3D-5A00-4478-81C7-AAE38C187AEA@gmail.com> References: <5B572F3D-5A00-4478-81C7-AAE38C187AEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: It’s my understanding that Iron Edison went out of business earlier this year. I did have an issue with a few bad cells in a RB48V300, but after the RMA, no issues to date. And certainly nothing explosive in nature, although I do remember a previous thread about an RB cover blowing off. The take away was…these are not field serviceable units. On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 8:04 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Can you send pictures? > > Jay > > On Aug 29, 2023, at 5:54 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  Leaking from somewhere mid way in the battery case I’m guessing. > > The liquid followed a cable down to the BMS board and corroded it badly. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Aug 29, 2023, at 10:30, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Jeremy, wrenches > It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you > seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere > Fun times > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> If anyone has had issues with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please >> contact me off list >> But , feel free to comment here if needed. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 23:13:54 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 20:13:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, Wrenches So clean all of it off water is best then dust it with flower even dust and see where it gets wet, it can be traveling down from the cap but if the caser is cracked then maybe epoxy if you can get it clean enough, the battery chemistry is hard on the skin so be careful. Fun times On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 4:54 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Leaking from somewhere mid way in the battery case I’m guessing. > The liquid followed a cable down to the BMS board and corroded it badly. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Aug 29, 2023, at 10:30, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Jeremy, wrenches > It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you > seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere > Fun times > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> If anyone has had issues with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please >> contact me off list >> But , feel free to comment here if needed. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Aug 30 10:16:09 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2023 07:16:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: References: <5B572F3D-5A00-4478-81C7-AAE38C187AEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes Iron Edison is closed. They had an out of business sale earlier this year. The epoxy fix of leaking fluids is best done by using a fast cure blend and expanding out until the leak stops. You can do this with a diesel fuel tank leak or an oil pan leak. It just needs to be clean and dry long enough for the epoxy to cure. The final coat can be with a quality epoxy like JB weld. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-29 5:49 pm, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > It's my understanding that Iron Edison went out of business earlier > this year. I did have an issue with a few bad cells in a RB48V300, but > after the RMA, no issues to date. And certainly nothing explosive in > nature, although I do remember a previous thread about an RB cover > blowing off. The take away was...these are not field serviceable units. > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 8:04 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Can you send pictures? > > Jay > > On Aug 29, 2023, at 5:54 PM, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Leaking from somewhere mid way in the battery case I'm guessing. > > The liquid followed a cable down to the BMS board and corroded it > badly. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Aug 29, 2023, at 10:30, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Jeremy, wrenches > It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you > seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere > Fun times > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: If anyone has had issues > with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please contact me off list > But , feel free to comment here if needed. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Aug 30 15:19:04 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2023 19:19:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’m working with the manufacturer to get a replacement, as these are two year old batteries. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Aug 29, 2023, at 21:14, Jerry Shafer wrote:  Jeremy, Wrenches So clean all of it off water is best then dust it with flower even dust and see where it gets wet, it can be traveling down from the cap but if the caser is cracked then maybe epoxy if you can get it clean enough, the battery chemistry is hard on the skin so be careful. Fun times On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 4:54 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: Leaking from somewhere mid way in the battery case I’m guessing. The liquid followed a cable down to the BMS board and corroded it badly. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Aug 29, 2023, at 10:30, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Jeremy, wrenches It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere Fun times On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: If anyone has had issues with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please contact me off list But , feel free to comment here if needed. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Aug 30 15:37:37 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2023 12:37:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019e4dc31518d8997ebde2ae03ff47ac@sti.net> Iron Edison or the MFG company in China? Just curious as I have a few clients with their LFP and they are concerned. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-30 12:19 pm, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: > I'm working with the manufacturer to get a replacement, as these are > two year old batteries. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > >> On Aug 29, 2023, at 21:14, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: > > Jeremy, Wrenches > So clean all of it off water is best then dust it with flower even dust > and see where it gets wet, it can be traveling down from the cap but if > the caser is cracked then maybe epoxy if you can get it clean enough, > the battery chemistry is hard on the skin so be careful. > Fun times > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 4:54 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Leaking from somewhere mid way in the battery case I'm guessing. > The liquid followed a cable down to the BMS board and corroded it > badly. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Aug 29, 2023, at 10:30, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Jeremy, wrenches > It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you > seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere > Fun times > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: If anyone has had issues > with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please contact me off list > But , feel free to comment here if needed. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [1] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://re-wrenches.org [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Aug 30 19:29:41 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2023 23:29:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iron Edison Lithiums In-Reply-To: <019e4dc31518d8997ebde2ae03ff47ac@sti.net> References: <019e4dc31518d8997ebde2ae03ff47ac@sti.net> Message-ID: The manufacturer from china. Terravolt does offer tech support for the product. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Aug 30, 2023, at 13:38, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:  Iron Edison or the MFG company in China? Just curious as I have a few clients with their LFP and they are concerned. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-30 12:19 pm, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote: I'm working with the manufacturer to get a replacement, as these are two year old batteries. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Aug 29, 2023, at 21:14, Jerry Shafer wrote: Jeremy, Wrenches So clean all of it off water is best then dust it with flower even dust and see where it gets wet, it can be traveling down from the cap but if the caser is cracked then maybe epoxy if you can get it clean enough, the battery chemistry is hard on the skin so be careful. Fun times On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 4:54 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: Leaking from somewhere mid way in the battery case I'm guessing. The liquid followed a cable down to the BMS board and corroded it badly. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Aug 29, 2023, at 10:30, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jeremy, wrenches It's been some time since as they don't pencil very well, where are you seeing the leakage, case top or elsewhere Fun times On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 6:53 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: If anyone has had issues with the Iron Edison lithiums leaking, please contact me off list But , feel free to comment here if needed. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Sep 1 09:55:25 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:55:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e6f144de3a868e91f444ed03639295f@redwoodalliance.org> My suppliers don't have any Fronius now. I try to buy entire systems, if possible. What is now available for a string inverter is the Grow Watt. Can anyone either recommend them, or warn us not to use them. Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-08-25 12:44, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: > Interesting. Fronius has a strong presence in Canada with good tech support. We also have a very low failure rate - can't remember the last time we replaced one. There were some supply issues earlier this year but we are receiving inverters and parts. They also have a good rep for low failure and good service in Australia and Europe. Not sure why the US gets short shrift. > > Eric Smiley, Design Manager > eric at vecoop.ca > T: 250.703.6004 [2] > T: 888.386.0116 [3] > VIRIDIANENERGY.CA [4] > > [4] > > On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 08:27, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I think Fronius has left the building. The reason I know is they stopped sending me AFCI repairs about 2 years ago. There was not any support from their installers in remote places like the Sierra range. > > I would second Tump on picking a good company with real money and products. Below is a new one this fall. > > https://shop.se.com/us/en/schneiderhome > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2023-08-25 3:55 am, Tump via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Mick, I would avoid trying to use a manufacture that has little NO support OR product availability. > IF your using the Schnieder Pros, I would suggest you consider the 600/100 CC. This product is more then capable of handling 7kW of input. They are available, compatible w/ their (Schnieder's) battery monitoring AND offer a system that is able to "talk" to itself. > Off grid should be uniform in design so clients/caretakers and you, have little adding to confusion IF/when their is an issue. > Lord knows Im not saying there won't be an issue w/ Schnieder's product, but we DO have a product, tech support & other persons w/in the company we are able to call on. > AC coupling, for off grid while we have Hi V CCs available is for me a thing of the past. My$0.02 worth TUMP > > On Aug 24, 2023, at 4:23 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer exists." > > Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? > > Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com [5] > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump [6]3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net [6] > > Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ > _ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California_ > _ 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 _ > _ __Blair "TUMP" May_ > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > _ __ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"_ > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > _ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] tel:+12507036004 [3] tel:+18883860116 [4] https://viridianenergy.ca/ [5] http://www.abrahamsolar.com/ [6] http://webmail.redwoodalliance.org/./#NOP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri Sep 1 11:31:01 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:31:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? Message-ID: I had to replace a failed Fronius with a Solis inverter a few weeks ago. It seems to be working okay.I also had failed to locate a suitable Fronius or SMA inverter in the 4kW range.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenchesDate: Fri, Sep 1, 2023 9:56 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? My suppliers don't have any Fronius now. I try to buy entire systems, if possible. What is now available for a string inverter is the Grow Watt. Can anyone either recommend them, or warn us not to use them. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ---   On 2023-08-25 12:44, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: Interesting. Fronius has a strong presence in Canada with good tech support. We also have a very low failure rate - can't remember the last time we replaced one. There were some supply issues earlier this year but we are receiving inverters and parts. They also have a good rep for low failure and good service in Australia and Europe. Not sure why the US gets short shrift. Eric Smiley, Design Managereric at vecoop.caT: 250.703.6004T: 888.386.0116VIRIDIANENERGY.CA On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 08:27, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: I think Fronius has left the building. The reason I know is they stopped sending me AFCI repairs about 2 years ago. There was not any support from their installers in remote places like the Sierra range.   I would second Tump on picking a good company with real money and products. Below is a new one this fall.   https://shop.se.com/us/en/schneiderhome   Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-25 3:55 am, Tump via RE-wrenches wrote: Mick, I would avoid trying to use a manufacture that has little NO support OR product availability. IF your using the Schnieder Pros, I would suggest you consider the 600/100 CC.  This product is more then capable of handling 7kW of input. They are available, compatible w/ their (Schnieder's) battery monitoring AND offer a system that is able to "talk" to itself.  Off grid should be uniform in design so clients/caretakers and you, have little adding to confusion IF/when their is an issue.  Lord knows Im not saying there won't be an issue w/ Schnieder's product, but we DO have a  product, tech support & other persons w/in the company we are able to call on.   AC coupling, for off grid while we have Hi V CCs available is for me a thing of the past. My$0.02 worth  TUMP On Aug 24, 2023, at 4:23 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer exists."    Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus?   Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietorwww.abrahamsolar.comLandline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump3391 at gmail.com       www.SWNL.net                 Solarwinds Northernlights               Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California                         207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401                                                             Blair "TUMP" May                ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ********                      NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"                  ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ********                  Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"   _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: blocked.gif URL: From mark at hurshtown.com Fri Sep 1 11:47:57 2023 From: mark at hurshtown.com (Mark Downing) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 15:47:57 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? In-Reply-To: <4e6f144de3a868e91f444ed03639295f@redwoodalliance.org> References: <4e6f144de3a868e91f444ed03639295f@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I have zero experience with Growatt string inverters, only off-grid, and have only dealt with dissatisfied customers. Each inverter requires a separate transformer if you want split phase 240v. They also seem a bit wimpy on big loads. But then again - my opinion is worth every penny you have paid for it. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, September 1, 2023 9:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fronius USA available 2023 & 2024 ? My suppliers don't have any Fronius now. I try to buy entire systems, if possible. What is now available for a string inverter is the Grow Watt. Can anyone either recommend them, or warn us not to use them. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2023-08-25 12:44, Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches wrote: Interesting. Fronius has a strong presence in Canada with good tech support. We also have a very low failure rate - can't remember the last time we replaced one. There were some supply issues earlier this year but we are receiving inverters and parts. They also have a good rep for low failure and good service in Australia and Europe. Not sure why the US gets short shrift. [https://viridianenergy.ca/sites/all/themes/viridian/emails/signature-line.png] Eric Smiley, Design Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 T: 888.386.0116 VIRIDIANENERGY.CA [https://viridianenergy.ca/sites/all/themes/viridian/emails/signature-footer.png] On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 at 08:27, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: I think Fronius has left the building. The reason I know is they stopped sending me AFCI repairs about 2 years ago. There was not any support from their installers in remote places like the Sierra range. I would second Tump on picking a good company with real money and products. Below is a new one this fall. https://shop.se.com/us/en/schneiderhome Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-08-25 3:55 am, Tump via RE-wrenches wrote: Mick, I would avoid trying to use a manufacture that has little NO support OR product availability. IF your using the Schnieder Pros, I would suggest you consider the 600/100 CC. This product is more then capable of handling 7kW of input. They are available, compatible w/ their (Schnieder's) battery monitoring AND offer a system that is able to "talk" to itself. Off grid should be uniform in design so clients/caretakers and you, have little adding to confusion IF/when their is an issue. Lord knows Im not saying there won't be an issue w/ Schnieder's product, but we DO have a product, tech support & other persons w/in the company we are able to call on. AC coupling, for off grid while we have Hi V CCs available is for me a thing of the past. My$0.02 worth TUMP On Aug 24, 2023, at 4:23 PM, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi, Mechanix~ I asked a Greentech location about quantity four Fronius string inverter PRIMO 6.0-1. (6kW AC output, single phase 240 volt 60 hz) This p/n is in the Greentech portal but my particular branch hasn't done much with Fronius. Today the branch manager told me "Fronius no longer exists." Can any of you confirm or correct this report? I have an off-grid opportunity for which I wish to AC couple some of the PV. If Fronius USA has indeed "left the building", are there other string inverters that can be selected for country code "off grid 60 hz"? I'd like for the PV inverters to only curtail their output wattage if there's a frequency shift from the grid forming inverter (frequency/watt). Schneider XW Pro units would be forming the grid. Schneider has a white paper # 990-6421 on AC coupling but this document is almost three years old & no help at all in finding compatible PV inverters. Rapid shutdown is not mandated for this gig & each array would be evenly illuminated. IIRC, the List hasn't been highly enamored with SolarEdge in recent years; is that still the consensus? Thanks as always; the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 [cid:169357652564f1ed4d32118273947807 at redwoodalliance.org]ᐧ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump<./#NOP>3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net<./#NOP> Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: blocked.gif URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Sep 1 12:26:50 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 09:26:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mojave/ESS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenchers,             We haven't done any hybrid systems with the Outback Mojave with ESS yet.  Comments up or down accepted. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Sep 1 15:44:04 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2023 15:44:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mojave/ESS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, My understanding of the Mojave is that it is specifically designed to be paired with AC coupled , grid-interactive inverters. It does not allow for closed loop communications via RS485 or CAN with third party manufacturers and cannot be paralleled with multiple units. Because of these limitations, I have not yet used this product. I would be interested in hearing any first hand experience as well. Kindly, Chris On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 12:24 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenchers, > > We haven't done any hybrid systems with the Outback Mojave > with ESS yet. Comments up or down accepted. > > Thanks, Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd > . > (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Mon Sep 4 19:16:58 2023 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2023 16:16:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations Message-ID: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> Hi All, I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger (min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum 85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40. Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one but not sure if there’s anything else out there. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products 1-877-925-2929 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Sep 4 20:05:40 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2023 17:05:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations In-Reply-To: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> References: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <107CE94E-2E92-48A2-9A02-16762F820175@starlightsolar.com> Iota DLS converters can be stacked in series. Using 4 of the 90 Amp in series will get you close. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 4, 2023, at 4:16 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi All, I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger (min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum 85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40. Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one but not sure if there’s anything else out there. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products 1-877-925-2929 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Sep 4 20:09:55 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2023 19:09:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations In-Reply-To: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> References: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <93C36AC8-F4FF-4FE3-A455-9FFE8FE1BB92@mavericksolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 158847d1-0a48-477c-8ec1-1d048007ee1f__99548.1693495224.386.513.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18675 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 165532 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Sep 4 20:19:08 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2023 00:19:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations In-Reply-To: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> References: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> Message-ID: I’m only familiar with two reputable brands that have this… Victron has a 25A and a 50A. I’ve used the 50A and I’m super happy with it. Iota has a 13 amp. It’s a lot less efficient than the Victron. The Victron is also more repairable if it ever has a problem down the line. EG4 does have a 100A 48V charger that’s cheap if you want to take the risk. I have found that when you are looking for high amperage 48 V charging, you can get an inverter/charger that gives you more charging amps for the same price. For example, I have an installer who used the Victron 15 kW inverter and it gave him 200A of charge current for a lot less cost vs installing 200A of battery chargers. You could use a 10 kW to get 140A of charge, or an 8 kW to get 110A. I enjoy helping spec out this kind of stuff, let me know if you have any questions or if you’d like any help. Thanks, Kienan Technical Sales and Technical Support Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Sep 4, 2023, at 5:17 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi All, I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger (min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum 85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40. Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one but not sure if there’s anything else out there. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products 1-877-925-2929 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Mon Sep 4 22:36:29 2023 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2023 22:36:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations In-Reply-To: <107CE94E-2E92-48A2-9A02-16762F820175@starlightsolar.com> References: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> <107CE94E-2E92-48A2-9A02-16762F820175@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: People might be scared of them because they are China built. But the EG4 ChargeVerter is outstanding and reliable. 48v 100 amps. Check it out at Signature Solar. This thing take crap generator power and is just works. Has a good price point. On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 8:06 PM Starlight via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Iota DLS converters can be stacked in series. Using 4 of the 90 Amp in > series will get you close. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > On Sep 4, 2023, at 4:16 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger > (min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum > 85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40. > Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one > but not sure if there’s anything else out there. > > Ron > > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products > 1-877-925-2929 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Sep 4 22:56:16 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2023 19:56:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations In-Reply-To: References: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> <107CE94E-2E92-48A2-9A02-16762F820175@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Good Evening Wrenches... Wow, they can get HOT!!!! [image: image.png] I don't know if I would mount this one near a battery bank of any type. Also, these are not for lead... Most Lead Acids need a higher voltage than 57 volts... You also have no control over how it terminates charging. [image: image.png] At 48 Volts, I suggest using Outback, Victron, Sunny Island, or Magnum Inverter.. You may need to cascade them. The Iota Charger is okay as you can control the (IQ4) voltage, but if the battery is lead and already sulfated, you will have a hard time recovering with an IOTA and an IQ4. Without the IQ4 the voltage may be a bit too low for some Lead-based batteries. Hope this helps. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 7:38 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > People might be scared of them because they are China built. But the EG4 > ChargeVerter is outstanding and reliable. 48v 100 amps. Check it out at > Signature Solar. > > This thing take crap generator power and is just works. Has a good price > point. > > On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 8:06 PM Starlight via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Iota DLS converters can be stacked in series. Using 4 of the 90 Amp in >> series will get you close. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> On Sep 4, 2023, at 4:16 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger >> (min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum >> 85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40. >> Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one >> but not sure if there’s anything else out there. >> >> Ron >> >> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com >> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products >> 1-877-925-2929 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 68933 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 56842 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Sep 4 23:15:43 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2023 20:15:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations In-Reply-To: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> References: <86376ECC-87C3-4CBA-A658-9F26C539A1AB@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <6bb5efb19cedbe758a989030eafcfde8@mail.gmail.com> Ron: If your client has a large battery bank and the inverter/charger cannot deliver enough charging amps, maybe your client has the wrong inverter/charger. Tacking on accessory equipment complicates an installation. There is a reason integrated inverter/chargers are popular. They all have sophisticated charging algorithms. They are remotely programmable and monitorable. An integrated inverter/charger uses one set of AC and DC leads as opposed to adding another set of both for an outboard charger. An integrated unit can handle AGM functions (maybe not the Solark). An integrated unit will transition seamlessly between inverting and charging and transfer AC loads. If you stop and think about it, modern inverter/chargers are amazing devices. There are many models that can do what you need: One Radian 8048 can deliver 115 amps of battery charging. One Schneider XWPro offers 140 amps. One Solark15 has 275 (???) battery charging amps. (I don’t think the Solark published data is organized well. Maybe someone knows the real value). Good luck. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ron Young via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, September 4, 2023 4:17 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Ron Young *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations Hi All, I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger (min. 100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum 85a charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40. Finding high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one but not sure if there’s anything else out there. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products 1-877-925-2929 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Sep 8 14:58:06 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 12:58:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter Message-ID: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001. It's been working great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he's gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don't like the old inverter. Is there some sort of power conditioner or 'line tamer' available that will work for this appliance's operation? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. He's rather loathe to replace his inverter if he doesn't need to. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 8 15:27:00 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 14:27:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave. You have to know the power. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001. It’s > been working great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he’s gotten > a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don’t like the old > inverter. Is there some sort of power conditioner or ‘line tamer’ > available that will work for this appliance’s operation? Any ideas would > be greatly appreciated. He’s rather loathe to replace his inverter if he > doesn’t need to. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 8 15:30:08 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 14:30:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave. You > have to know the power. > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi folks: >> >> >> >> I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001. It’s >> been working great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he’s >> gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don’t like the >> old inverter. Is there some sort of power conditioner or ‘line tamer’ >> available that will work for this appliance’s operation? Any ideas >> would be greatly appreciated. He’s rather loathe to replace his >> inverter if he doesn’t need to. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 8 16:53:06 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 13:53:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET or two. They do not last forever! Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about. > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave. You > have to know the power. > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi folks: > > I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001. It's > been working great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he's > gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don't like > the old inverter. Is there some sort of power conditioner or 'line > tamer' available that will work for this appliance's operation? Any > ideas would be greatly appreciated. He's rather loathe to replace his > inverter if he doesn't need to. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com [1] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.oasismontana.com/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Fri Sep 8 17:03:34 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 14:03:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris, I just helped a friend with his  EV (Bolt) not charging from two stacked SW5548's... The problem is usually those darned sharp edges created by the 3 modified square-wave inverters in series. I guess technology is going backwards for this kind of stuff ?  New electronics designers I guess  😁 The edges mess with the zero crossing position of course along with all the other edges that may confuse the washing machine. Assuming this is a single 120 VAC SW inverter, or stacked actually, try this... Get a 100 foot roll of say, 10 or 12 gauge wire and strip the ends off for connection. You CAN pull off the wire and wind it all into a coil but this using a roll makes it easy to start with. Disconnect L1 (hot) from the SW output and insert the coil of wire in between the L1 SW output and L1 wire end. Then connect one terminal of a capacitor from the coil/L1 wire end. Connect the 2nd capacitor terminal to the SW5548 Neutral connector along with the regularly connected Neutral wire together. The capacitor must be a AC capacitor like a motor run cap (non-polarized) with a voltage rating, usually around 300 or 305 VAC  or higher V. That capacitor appears in parallel with the load or washing machine in this case. If you can't find 100 uF (microfarad) cap, then something lower might work like, 10 uF or 47 uF. Realize that the voltage appearing across the output of this coil/capacitor combination will drop slightly.  The 240 VAC version dropped about 6 to 8 VAC which was OK. You can, if needed, use less wire or smaller capacitor microfarads to increase the voltage but this will also increase the ripples. The reason I used an air coil of wire was so that no iron/steel core would saturate when the current starts. Interested to know, if you try this if it works to help filter those edges and get the washing machine to work better. 🌜boB🌛 On 9/8/2023 11:58 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi folks: > > I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001.It’s > been workinggreat for him all this time, but the dilemma is he’s > gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don’t like > the old inverter.Is there some sort of power conditioner or ‘line > tamer’ available that will work for this appliance’s operation?Any > ideas would be greatly appreciated.He’s rather loathe to replace his > inverter if he doesn’t need to. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Fri Sep 8 20:00:23 2023 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 17:00:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <58144F32-952A-4571-AD94-427DB390C50C@pacific.net> One detail I recall is that the SW’s “mayan temple” waveform improves as the load on the inverter. increases Of course the battery capacity may suffer if an otherwise unneeded load is utilized to achieve this result. If it achieves it at all. A low cost test option in any case. Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net > On Sep 8, 2023, at 11:58 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi folks: > > I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001. It’s been working great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he’s gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don’t like the old inverter. Is there some sort of power conditioner or ‘line tamer’ available that will work for this appliance’s operation? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. He’s rather loathe to replace his inverter if he doesn’t need to. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Fri Sep 8 23:58:54 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 20:58:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: <58144F32-952A-4571-AD94-427DB390C50C@pacific.net> References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> <58144F32-952A-4571-AD94-427DB390C50C@pacific.net> Message-ID: Hey Wally !   This is definitely truth when adding loads improving the waveform of the SW. My friend could make his 2 SW's charge his Chevy Bolt by turning his oven on in the kitchen. The stray inductance along with the higher load current I think is what is doing this. Time =  L/R  in seconds. The inductance doesn't really change much but the Resistance of the load goes way down, from almost NO load, and so the 'T' goes up...  Meaning that the cutoff frequency goes down, closer to 60 Hz. 🌜boB🌛 On 9/8/2023 5:00 PM, Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches wrote: > One detail I recall is that the  SW’s “mayan temple” waveform improves > as the load on the inverter. increases  Of course the battery capacity > may suffer if an otherwise unneeded load is utilized to achieve this > result.   If it achieves it at all. A low cost test option in any case. > > Wallace Stahle > Future Electric Energy Co > PO Box 236 > Willits, CA 95490 > 707-459-0474 > Lic.#C10-762093 > future at pacific.net > >> On Sep 8, 2023, at 11:58 AM, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi folks: >> I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001.It’s >> been workinggreat for him all this time, but the dilemma is he’s >> gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don’t like >> the old inverter.Is there some sort of power conditioner or ‘line >> tamer’ available that will work for this appliance’s operation?Any >> ideas would be greatly appreciated.He’s rather loathe to replace his >> inverter if he doesn’t need to. >> Best, >> Chris Daum >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> 406-777-4309 fax >> www.oasismontana.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 9 01:11:38 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2023 23:11:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: That's about what to expect from the Psuedo Sine Wave that the SWs put out.  They shortened the list of problem appliances significantly compared to "mod sine", but its a stepped pyramid wave.  Later inverters (Outback, Magnum) were step waves too, but just more steps, which translates to less trouble. Trace SW waveform I have cured the "washer not running on the SW" once, by adding a capacitor to the circuit.  I can't recommend it 100% from a safety stand point, but it worked for us. Some body else chime in on the possible dangers?  Cap blowing, fires, shorts?  Definitely needs to be in a metal enclosure. I think its either get a different washer or get a different inverter. At 22+ years, its slowly reaching the time to retire those old SWs. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/8/23 2:53 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET or > two. They do not last forever! Good Luck > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about. >> >> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: >> >> I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine >> wave.  You have to know the power. >> >> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi folks: >> >> I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in >> 2001.It's been workinggreat for him all this time, but the >> dilemma is he's gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and >> its electronics don't like the old inverter.Is there some >> sort of power conditioner or 'line tamer' available that will >> work for this appliance's operation?Any ideas would be >> greatly appreciated.He's rather loathe to replace his >> inverter if he doesn't need to. >> >> Best, >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 12:33:44 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2023 09:33:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I must agree with Ray, that inverter was never intended to run the slew of electronics we have now. There are gadgets out on the market that may do what you want but the reliability is in question. Does this site have a genny? Using the that may get you past the issue but not solving the problem. Upgrading the inverter would be my answer too. Good luck on presenting this to your customer. Not so fun times On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 10:12 PM Ray via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's about what to expect from the Psuedo Sine Wave that the SWs put > out. They shortened the list of problem appliances significantly compared > to "mod sine", but its a stepped pyramid wave. Later inverters (Outback, > Magnum) were step waves too, but just more steps, which translates to less > trouble. > > Trace SW waveform > > > I have cured the "washer not running on the SW" once, by adding a > capacitor to the circuit. I can't recommend it 100% from a safety stand > point, but it worked for us. Some body else chime in on the possible > dangers? Cap blowing, fires, shorts? Definitely needs to be in a metal > enclosure. > > I think its either get a different washer or get a different inverter. At > 22+ years, its slowly reaching the time to retire those old SWs. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/8/23 2:53 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET or two. > They do not last forever! Good Luck > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about. > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > > I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave. You > have to know the power. > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi folks: > > > > I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001. It's > been working great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he's gotten > a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don't like the old > inverter. Is there some sort of power conditioner or 'line tamer' > available that will work for this appliance's operation? Any ideas would > be greatly appreciated. He's rather loathe to replace his inverter if he > doesn't need to. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 9 12:46:53 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2023 11:46:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: It was pointed out that I meant Ferro-resonant transformer. The transformer has a coil and a capacitor tuned to 60 hrzs. Sorry if I confused wrenches. On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 11:35 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I must agree with Ray, that inverter was never intended to run the slew of > electronics we have now. There are gadgets out on the market that may do > what you want but the reliability is in question. Does this site have a > genny? Using the that may get you past the issue but not solving the > problem. Upgrading the inverter would be my answer too. Good luck on > presenting this to your customer. > Not so fun times > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 10:12 PM Ray via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> That's about what to expect from the Psuedo Sine Wave that the SWs put >> out. They shortened the list of problem appliances significantly compared >> to "mod sine", but its a stepped pyramid wave. Later inverters (Outback, >> Magnum) were step waves too, but just more steps, which translates to less >> trouble. >> >> Trace SW waveform >> >> >> I have cured the "washer not running on the SW" once, by adding a >> capacitor to the circuit. I can't recommend it 100% from a safety stand >> point, but it worked for us. Some body else chime in on the possible >> dangers? Cap blowing, fires, shorts? Definitely needs to be in a metal >> enclosure. >> >> I think its either get a different washer or get a different inverter. At >> 22+ years, its slowly reaching the time to retire those old SWs. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 9/8/23 2:53 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET or two. >> They do not last forever! Good Luck >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> https://offgridsolar1.com/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about. >> >> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: >> >> I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave. You >> have to know the power. >> >> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Hi folks: >> >> >> >> I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001. It's >> been working great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he's >> gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don't like the >> old inverter. Is there some sort of power conditioner or 'line tamer' >> available that will work for this appliance's operation? Any ideas >> would be greatly appreciated. He's rather loathe to replace his >> inverter if he doesn't need to. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Sep 9 13:13:30 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2023 10:13:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Friends: I had an experience with a more modern inverter system creating harmonic distortion on the output waveform during generator run. That issue was documented here . The inverter system is Outback Radian. A few weeks ago I received a call from an individual that was researching a similar problem. He called me to tell me he had resolved his harmonic distortion problem by installing a 20 microfarad capacitor in the circuit that was having problems. I have read here about adding a capacitor to solve distortion problems. The same client is still having problems running a modern oven. I ordered a 20 microfarad, non-polarized capacitor rated at 440 VAC. I will let you know if this provides any resolution. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 10:12 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Cc:* Ray *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter That's about what to expect from the Psuedo Sine Wave that the SWs put out. They shortened the list of problem appliances significantly compared to "mod sine", but its a stepped pyramid wave. Later inverters (Outback, Magnum) were step waves too, but just more steps, which translates to less trouble. Trace SW waveform I have cured the "washer not running on the SW" once, by adding a capacitor to the circuit. I can't recommend it 100% from a safety stand point, but it worked for us. Some body else chime in on the possible dangers? Cap blowing, fires, shorts? Definitely needs to be in a metal enclosure. I think its either get a different washer or get a different inverter. At 22+ years, its slowly reaching the time to retire those old SWs. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/8/23 2:53 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET or two. They do not last forever! Good Luck *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* *"we go where powerlines don't"* * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * *text 209 813 0060* On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a sine wave. You have to know the power. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Hi folks: I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us in 2001. It's been working great for him all this time, but the dilemma is he's gotten a new Hotpoint washing machine, and its electronics don't like the old inverter. Is there some sort of power conditioner or 'line tamer' available that will work for this appliance's operation? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. He's rather loathe to replace his inverter if he doesn't need to. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Sat Sep 9 14:41:38 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2023 11:41:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter In-Reply-To: References: <00c201d9e286$674265c0$35c73140$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <4a3ab97f-bca2-12a3-fb76-699cbc3dce9f@midnitesolar.com> William,  you are correct that it is a little harder on the capacitor due to ripple current caused by the little jumps in waveform.  This is where the series inductance will help the filtering a bit too. The added L  will add that bit of needed impedance to complete the L-C  filter. The SW was sure a great inverter and has stood the test of time in many applications. I think it if had a fourth and smaller section, it could have been perfect but I would say it was heavy enough for even two people to lift. BTW, Heart Akerson passed away recently. He was a good man. 🌜boB🌛 On 9/9/2023 10:13 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > I had an experience with a more modern inverter system creating > harmonic distortion on the output waveform during generator run.  That > issue was documented here > .  > The inverter system is Outback Radian. > > A few weeks ago I received a call from an individual that was > researching a similar problem.  He called me to tell me he had > resolved his harmonic distortion problem by installing a 20 microfarad > capacitor in the circuit that was having problems. > > I have read here about adding a capacitor to solve distortion > problems. The same client is still having problems running a modern > oven.  I ordered a 20 microfarad, non-polarized capacitor rated at 440 > VAC.  I will let you know if this provides any resolution. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *Ray via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 10:12 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* Ray > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Power conditioner for Trace inverter > > That's about what to expect from the Psuedo Sine Wave that the SWs put > out.  They shortened the list of problem appliances significantly > compared to "mod sine", but its a stepped pyramid wave.  Later > inverters (Outback, Magnum) were step waves too, but just more steps, > which translates to less trouble. > > Trace SW waveform > > I have cured the "washer not running on the SW" once, by adding a > capacitor to the circuit.  I can't recommend it 100% from a safety > stand point, but it worked for us. Some body else chime in on the > possible dangers?  Cap blowing, fires, shorts?  Definitely needs to be > in a metal enclosure. > > I think its either get a different washer or get a different inverter. > At 22+ years, its slowly reaching the time to retire those old SWs. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 9/8/23 2:53 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I would do a load test on the inverter. It may have a damaged FET > or two. They do not last forever! Good Luck > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *https://offgridsolar1.com/ > * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net* > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On 2023-09-08 12:30 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > New washing machines are small loads 400 Watts about. > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 2:27 PM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > > I once used a ferro-resonant transformer to clean up a > sine wave.  You have to know the power. > > On Fri, Sep 8, 2023, 1:59 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi folks: > > I have a fellow with a Trace SW5548, purchased from us > in 2001.  It's been working  great for him all this > time, but the dilemma is he's gotten a new Hotpoint > washing machine, and its electronics don't like the > old inverter.  Is there some sort of power conditioner > or 'line tamer' available that will work for this > appliance's operation?  Any ideas would be greatly > appreciated.  He's rather loathe to replace his > inverter if he doesn't need to. > > Best, > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Sep 13 13:07:37 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:07:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array Message-ID: All, Looking for recommendations to seal the gaps between modules in a carport array for weather-tightness. I've used the Sunmodo gaskets before, but curious about other reliable options. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Sep 13 13:16:52 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:16:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirk, This probably isn't the answer you want, but we insist that a conventional roof is installed (could be metal, bitumen, etc) and then install the array on top if the client needs it to be watertight. It just seems like everything else such as rubber gaskets or tape will be temporary or problematic over time. Maybe others out there know of a good way to do it! August Luminalt On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All, > > Looking for recommendations to seal the gaps between modules in a carport > array for weather-tightness. I've used the Sunmodo gaskets before, but > curious about other reliable options. Thanks. > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Sep 13 13:29:37 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:29:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am using bifacial panels for albedo harvest, so no roof surface, just open rafters. Mod rails mounted perpendicular. The Sunmodo gasket did work well in combo with bottom mounting the modules ( i.e. no top bolts between the panels to interfere with the press-fit of the gasket). But you really need to make the gap a little wider, 1/2" or more, to get that particular gasket to tap in easy and snug. I used Ironridge camo clamps at additional expense instead of the UFOs. On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 1:17 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi Kirk, > > This probably isn't the answer you want, but we insist that a conventional > roof is installed (could be metal, bitumen, etc) and then install the array > on top if the client needs it to be watertight. It just seems like > everything else such as rubber gaskets or tape will be temporary or > problematic over time. Maybe others out there know of a good way to do it! > > August > Luminalt > > > > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> All, >> >> Looking for recommendations to seal the gaps between modules in a carport >> array for weather-tightness. I've used the Sunmodo gaskets before, but >> curious about other reliable options. Thanks. >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danny at sesre.com Wed Sep 13 13:35:28 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 17:35:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Agreed with August. I have tried professional window teams using pro grade caulks and sealants. I’ve tried gaskets, I’ve tried the foam tape system Lumos suggests for their canopy system. Nothing has allowed a reliable and longer term seal. I moved to the same standard, 100% requiring a roof under the array as part of the canopy if water protection is desired. For me canopies without dedicated roofing provide shade and limited snow protection. Protection from rain is limited to giving pedestrians several larger areas to hide under solar modules but water gets concentrated at the module gaps. -- Danny Young Engineering Team Lead NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of August Goers via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 1:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: August Goers Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi Kirk, This probably isn't the answer you want, but we insist that a conventional roof is installed (could be metal, bitumen, etc) and then install the array on top if the client needs it to be watertight. It just seems like everything else such as rubber gaskets or tape will be temporary or problematic over time. Maybe others out there know of a good way to do it! August Luminalt On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > wrote: All, Looking for recommendations to seal the gaps between modules in a carport array for weather-tightness. I've used the Sunmodo gaskets before, but curious about other reliable options. Thanks. -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 13 17:38:15 2023 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 16:38:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirk, Way back in 2016, Bob Maynard made a recommendation for a racking product called Solar RainFrame. It looks like the weblink in that post is now broken, but I see an updated website at solarrainframe.com. For larger arrays, you might consider a product from Nucor called PowerShingle . One of my buddies recently installed that product on top of a parking garage, and he seems satisfied enough with the results—i.e., he has not observed any leaks after the first few months in service. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > All, > > Looking for recommendations to seal the gaps between modules in a carport > array for weather-tightness. I've used the Sunmodo gaskets before, but > curious about other reliable options. Thanks. > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Sep 13 18:36:25 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 17:36:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You could try contacting the Wisconsin program called "solar for good". They have a system for their timber framed car port. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Wed, Sep 13, 2023, 4:38 PM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Kirk, > > Way back in 2016, Bob Maynard made a recommendation > > for a racking product called Solar RainFrame. It looks like the weblink in > that post is now broken, but I see an updated website at > solarrainframe.com. > > For larger arrays, you might consider a product from Nucor called > PowerShingle > . > One of my buddies recently installed that product on top of a parking > garage, and he seems satisfied enough with the results—i.e., he has not > observed any leaks after the first few months in service. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> All, >> >> Looking for recommendations to seal the gaps between modules in a carport >> array for weather-tightness. I've used the Sunmodo gaskets before, but >> curious about other reliable options. Thanks. >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 14 16:34:45 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:34:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power Message-ID: Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)? I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important. I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart. I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful are going to be limited. I don't need any generator integration. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 14 16:52:23 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 13:52:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault Message-ID: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? Thanks. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danny at sesre.com Thu Sep 14 17:17:25 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 21:17:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe they do. They also have generator support with programable SOC trigger points. They can start either 2 wire start generators, or if the generator is existing and has a complicated signaling system, you can actually wire the Franklin smart module to the existing generator ATS and let Franklin kill the AC power to the ATS to force the generator to start. -- Danny Young Engineering Team Lead NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2023 4:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)? I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important. I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart. I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful are going to be limited. I don't need any generator integration. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 14 17:25:13 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 17:25:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Enphase does generator support as well. Fortunately, I do not need that, so maybe it opens up my options. It's good to know that Franklin supports off-grid. I will reach out to them to confirm. I asked my Enphase rep to run this up the chain of command to see if they would support this installation given that it's kind of high profile and a fantastic marketing opportunity. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 5:17 PM Daniel Young wrote: > I believe they do. They also have generator support with programable SOC > trigger points. They can start either 2 wire start generators, or if the > generator is existing and has a complicated signaling system, you can > actually wire the Franklin smart module to the existing generator ATS and > let Franklin kill the AC power to the ATS to force the generator to start. > > > > -- > > > > Danny Young > > Engineering Team Lead > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 > Solar Energy Solutions > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 513-448-5176 (mobile) > > 877-312-7456 (Main Office) > > danny at sesre.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2023 4:35 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power > > > > *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. > > > > Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in > a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)? > > > > I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads > in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and > have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important. > > > > I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not > officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough > to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports > this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart. > > > > I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something > like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful > are going to be limited. > > > > I don't need any generator integration. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 14 17:26:22 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 15:26:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All, I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool down, kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. Has anyone come up with external fix for this? I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off signal. If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off cycle assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in sending power to the inverter. The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay relay. Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this built in? Thanks in advance Jay From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 01:04:13 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 22:04:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, wrenches ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up and for cool down. Most of the gensets have are programmed cool down after relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range. fun times On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool down, > kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. > > > Has anyone come up with external fix for this? > > I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it > sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off > signal. > > If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off cycle > assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in sending > power to the inverter. > > The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay > relay. > > Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this > built in? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 08:26:36 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 05:26:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No cool down is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a 400amp contactor and macromatic programmable relay. On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay, wrenches > ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up and > for cool down. Most of the gensets have are programmed cool down after > relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects > as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range. > fun times > > > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool down, >> kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. >> >> >> Has anyone come up with external fix for this? >> >> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it >> sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off >> signal. >> >> If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off cycle >> assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in sending >> power to the inverter. >> >> The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay >> relay. >> >> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this >> built in? >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 15 16:55:34 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 16:55:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not install with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me) had already installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get into the logic of it, but from what I understand the generator already had a cool-down period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay. Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark should fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way. I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting generator input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay if it were a utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I would think. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No cool > down is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a > 400amp contactor and macromatic programmable relay. > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jay, wrenches >> ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up and >> for cool down. Most of the gensets have are programmed cool down after >> relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects >> as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range. >> fun times >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool down, >>> kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. >>> >>> >>> Has anyone come up with external fix for this? >>> >>> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it >>> sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off >>> signal. >>> >>> If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off cycle >>> assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in sending >>> power to the inverter. >>> >>> The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay >>> relay. >>> >>> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this >>> built in? >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 17:26:24 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:26:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In an off-grid scenario I would suggest utilizing the grid connect timer as a Gen warm up. I typically set this qualification time to 30 or 60 seconds. Sol Ark fixed the problem with dropping the 2 wire start under full load, so if this is an issue for you, I would update the firmware. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not install > with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me) had > already installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get into > the logic of it, but from what I understand the generator already had a > cool-down period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay. > > Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark > should fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way. > > I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting generator > input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay if it were > a utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I would think. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No cool >> down is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a >> 400amp contactor and macromatic programmable relay. >> >> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Jay, wrenches >>> ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up and >>> for cool down. Most of the gensets have are programmed cool down after >>> relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects >>> as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range. >>> fun times >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool >>>> down, kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. >>>> >>>> >>>> Has anyone come up with external fix for this? >>>> >>>> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it >>>> sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off >>>> signal. >>>> >>>> If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off >>>> cycle assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in >>>> sending power to the inverter. >>>> >>>> The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay >>>> relay. >>>> >>>> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this >>>> built in? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 15 17:31:42 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 17:31:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I saw that setting. I didn't have a chance to look it up today, but I'm going back to the site tomorrow. I'm going to play with that and try to get rid of the ancillary equipment that is no longer necessary. Thanks for the tip. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:26 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > In an off-grid scenario I would suggest utilizing the grid connect timer > as a Gen warm up. I typically set this qualification time to 30 or 60 > seconds. Sol Ark fixed the problem with dropping the 2 wire start under > full load, so if this is an issue for you, I would update the firmware. > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not >> install with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me) >> had already installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get >> into the logic of it, but from what I understand the generator already had >> a cool-down period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay. >> >> Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark >> should fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way. >> >> I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting >> generator input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay >> if it were a utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I >> would think. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No cool >>> down is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a >>> 400amp contactor and macromatic programmable relay. >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Jay, wrenches >>>> ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up and >>>> for cool down. Most of the gensets have are programmed cool down after >>>> relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects >>>> as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range. >>>> fun times >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool >>>>> down, kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Has anyone come up with external fix for this? >>>>> >>>>> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when >>>>> it sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the >>>>> off signal. >>>>> >>>>> If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off >>>>> cycle assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in >>>>> sending power to the inverter. >>>>> >>>>> The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on >>>>> delay relay. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this >>>>> built in? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance >>>>> >>>>> Jay >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> >>> Morningstar Electric >>> >>> PO Box 1494 >>> >>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>> >>> 530-921-0560 >>> >>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 17:41:00 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 14:41:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris, Just so that I understand correctly, are you saying that new firmware allows for generator cool down? On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 2:33 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I saw that setting. I didn't have a chance to look it up today, but I'm > going back to the site tomorrow. I'm going to play with that and try to get > rid of the ancillary equipment that is no longer necessary. Thanks for the > tip. > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:26 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> In an off-grid scenario I would suggest utilizing the grid connect timer >> as a Gen warm up. I typically set this qualification time to 30 or 60 >> seconds. Sol Ark fixed the problem with dropping the 2 wire start under >> full load, so if this is an issue for you, I would update the firmware. >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not >>> install with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me) >>> had already installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get >>> into the logic of it, but from what I understand the generator already had >>> a cool-down period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay. >>> >>> Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark >>> should fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way. >>> >>> I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting >>> generator input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay >>> if it were a utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I >>> would think. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No >>>> cool down is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a >>>> 400amp contactor and macromatic programmable relay. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jay, wrenches >>>>> ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up >>>>> and for cool down. Most of the gensets have are programmed cool down after >>>>> relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects >>>>> as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range. >>>>> fun times >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool >>>>>> down, kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Has anyone come up with external fix for this? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when >>>>>> it sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the >>>>>> off signal. >>>>>> >>>>>> If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off >>>>>> cycle assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in >>>>>> sending power to the inverter. >>>>>> >>>>>> The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on >>>>>> delay relay. >>>>>> >>>>>> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has >>>>>> this built in? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks in advance >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Michael Morningstar >>>> >>>> >>>> Morningstar Electric >>>> >>>> PO Box 1494 >>>> >>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>> >>>> 530-921-0560 >>>> >>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 15 23:24:39 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 20:24:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Wrenches I am familiar with Franklin and when I asked them about the battery they had all the answers but when I asked about the AC coupled inverter inside, mainly who made it is it field serviceable I got deer in the headlights and a few weeks later I asked them the same thing and again no answer. I would go with something that has been around some. You talked about Solark, I have had no issues with any of their inverters and my latest install was today connected to a fortress. Of course time will tell on anything we use, Maybe franklin has made it known what is inside but for me I will not use my customers as unknowing guinea pigs, I test products myself and see what survives. Jerry On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in > a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)? > > I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads > in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and > have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important. > > I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not > officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough > to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports > this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart. > > I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something > like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful > are going to be limited. > > I don't need any generator integration. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 01:11:04 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2023 22:11:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Wrenches Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. OldSchool fun times On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny > Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? > > > > Thanks. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Sep 16 07:02:56 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 07:02:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would definitely consider Sol-Ark if there were a NEMA 3R wall-mountable 48V battery on the market. I'm having a hard time finding that. For what it's worth, Franklin got back to me and they fully and enthusiastically will support an off-grid system. There is no question that they are making inroads. We are getting requests from clients for their brand specifically. That said, I agree that there is significant risk in trying out a newcomer for an important project, but I'm running out of options. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:24 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Jason, Wrenches > I am familiar with Franklin and when I asked them about the battery they > had all the answers but when I asked about the AC coupled inverter inside, > mainly who made it is it field serviceable I got deer in the headlights and > a few weeks later I asked them the same thing and again no answer. I would > go with something that has been around some. You talked about Solark, I > have had no issues with any of their inverters and my latest install was > today connected to a fortress. Of course time will tell on anything we use, > Maybe franklin has made it known what is inside but for me I will not use > my customers as unknowing guinea pigs, I test products myself and see what > survives. > Jerry > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution >> in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)? >> >> I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run >> loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA >> 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important. >> >> I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not >> officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough >> to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports >> this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart. >> >> I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or >> something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and >> beautiful are going to be limited. >> >> I don't need any generator integration. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 09:04:21 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 07:04:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers. Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, Wrenches > Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work > correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a > resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not > charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for > what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. > Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be > happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. > OldSchool fun times > > > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny >> Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 09:29:03 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 06:29:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mac, wrenches SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny. Fun times On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi William, > > Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if > Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. > > We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion > batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto > gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always > way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we > could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since > added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in > the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. > > I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so > State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without > that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the > ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery > communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop > communication for many manufacturers. > > Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> William, Wrenches >> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work >> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a >> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not >> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for >> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. >> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be >> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. >> OldSchool fun times >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny >>> Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Sep 16 10:33:27 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 10:33:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jerry, Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention? On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Mac, wrenches > SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. > Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that > they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command > the genny. > Fun times > > On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi William, >> >> Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if >> Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. >> >> We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion >> batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto >> gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always >> way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we >> could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since >> added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in >> the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. >> >> I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so >> State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without >> that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the >> ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery >> communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop >> communication for many manufacturers. >> >> Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> William, Wrenches >>> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work >>> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a >>> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not >>> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for >>> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. >>> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be >>> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. >>> OldSchool fun times >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny >>>> Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 10:39:21 2023 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 07:39:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AA3C6D8-7C28-4345-B284-4A8B389CD3DA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.png Type: image/png Size: 546347 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 10:54:33 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 08:54:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recently saw this. I haven’t used either, but its looks well done. https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powerpro-ess-14-3-28-6kwh-capacity-eg4-18kpv-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/ > On Sep 16, 2023, at 5:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I would definitely consider Sol-Ark if there were a NEMA 3R wall-mountable 48V battery on the market. I'm having a hard time finding that. > > For what it's worth, Franklin got back to me and they fully and enthusiastically will support an off-grid system. There is no question that they are making inroads. We are getting requests from clients for their brand specifically. That said, I agree that there is significant risk in trying out a newcomer for an important project, but I'm running out of options. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:24 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > Jason, Wrenches > I am familiar with Franklin and when I asked them about the battery they had all the answers but when I asked about the AC coupled inverter inside, mainly who made it is it field serviceable I got deer in the headlights and a few weeks later I asked them the same thing and again no answer. I would go with something that has been around some. You talked about Solark, I have had no issues with any of their inverters and my latest install was today connected to a fortress. Of course time will tell on anything we use, Maybe franklin has made it known what is inside but for me I will not use my customers as unknowing guinea pigs, I test products myself and see what survives. > Jerry > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)? > > I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important. > > I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart. > > I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful are going to be limited. > > I don't need any generator integration. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 11:20:31 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 11:20:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Michael, Sol Ark does not have an explicit or adjustable cool down setting, but it has fixed the problem of dropping the AGS signal under full load. Dustin at sol-ark.com can you confirm this? On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 5:41 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Chris, > Just so that I understand correctly, are you saying that new firmware > allows for generator cool down? > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 2:33 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I saw that setting. I didn't have a chance to look it up today, but I'm >> going back to the site tomorrow. I'm going to play with that and try to get >> rid of the ancillary equipment that is no longer necessary. Thanks for the >> tip. >> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:26 PM Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >>> In an off-grid scenario I would suggest utilizing the grid connect timer >>> as a Gen warm up. I typically set this qualification time to 30 or 60 >>> seconds. Sol Ark fixed the problem with dropping the 2 wire start under >>> full load, so if this is an issue for you, I would update the firmware. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not >>>> install with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me) >>>> had already installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get >>>> into the logic of it, but from what I understand the generator already had >>>> a cool-down period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay. >>>> >>>> Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark >>>> should fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way. >>>> >>>> I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting >>>> generator input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay >>>> if it were a utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I >>>> would think. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No >>>>> cool down is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a >>>>> 400amp contactor and macromatic programmable relay. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jay, wrenches >>>>>> ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up >>>>>> and for cool down. Most of the gensets have are programmed cool down after >>>>>> relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects >>>>>> as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range. >>>>>> fun times >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches < >>>>>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool >>>>>>> down, kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Has anyone come up with external fix for this? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when >>>>>>> it sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the >>>>>>> off signal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off >>>>>>> cycle assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in >>>>>>> sending power to the inverter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on >>>>>>> delay relay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has >>>>>>> this built in? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks in advance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jay >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>>>>> try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Michael Morningstar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Morningstar Electric >>>>> >>>>> PO Box 1494 >>>>> >>>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>>> >>>>> 530-921-0560 >>>>> >>>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Sep 16 11:51:34 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 09:51:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As I’ve been researching this, the Atkinson GSCM can do this when coupled to an external relay. If I understand correctly. Jay The warm up ( on delay ) is 0- 60 seconds, the cool down ( off delay) is 0-120 seconds https://thesolarstore.com/manuals/GSCM.pdf > On Sep 16, 2023, at 9:20 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Michael, > > Sol Ark does not have an explicit or adjustable cool down setting, but it has fixed the problem of dropping the AGS signal under full load. > > Dustin at sol-ark.com can you confirm this? > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 5:41 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Chris, > Just so that I understand correctly, are you saying that new firmware allows for generator cool down? > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 2:33 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I saw that setting. I didn't have a chance to look it up today, but I'm going back to the site tomorrow. I'm going to play with that and try to get rid of the ancillary equipment that is no longer necessary. Thanks for the tip. > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:26 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > In an off-grid scenario I would suggest utilizing the grid connect timer as a Gen warm up. I typically set this qualification time to 30 or 60 seconds. Sol Ark fixed the problem with dropping the 2 wire start under full load, so if this is an issue for you, I would update the firmware. > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not install with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me) had already installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get into the logic of it, but from what I understand the generator already had a cool-down period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay. > > Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark should fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way. > > I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting generator input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay if it were a utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I would think. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No cool down is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a 400amp contactor and macromatic programmable relay. > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Jay, wrenches > ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up and for cool down. Most of the gensets have are programmed cool down after relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range. > fun times > > > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool down, kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. > > > Has anyone come up with external fix for this? > > I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off signal. > > If thats correct I can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off cycle assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in sending power to the inverter. > > The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay relay. > > Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this built in? > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Sep 17 00:22:50 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2023 23:22:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sorry for a dumb question but what is the voltage ranges of the Franklin? On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 4:26 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Enphase does generator support as well. Fortunately, I do not need that, > so maybe it opens up my options. It's good to know that Franklin supports > off-grid. I will reach out to them to confirm. > > I asked my Enphase rep to run this up the chain of command to see if they > would support this installation given that it's kind of high profile and a > fantastic marketing opportunity. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 5:17 PM Daniel Young wrote: > >> I believe they do. They also have generator support with programable SOC >> trigger points. They can start either 2 wire start generators, or if the >> generator is existing and has a complicated signaling system, you can >> actually wire the Franklin smart module to the existing generator ATS and >> let Franklin kill the AC power to the ATS to force the generator to start. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Danny Young >> >> Engineering Team Lead >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 >> Solar Energy Solutions >> >> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | >> Indianapolis >> >> 513-448-5176 (mobile) >> >> 877-312-7456 (Main Office) >> >> danny at sesre.com >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2023 4:35 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power >> >> >> >> *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or >> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >> safe. >> >> >> >> Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution >> in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)? >> >> >> >> I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run >> loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA >> 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important. >> >> >> >> I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not >> officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough >> to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports >> this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart. >> >> >> >> I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or >> something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and >> beautiful are going to be limited. >> >> >> >> I don't need any generator integration. >> >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Sep 18 13:12:40 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:12:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB Message-ID: I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel. Here's the existing infrastructure. 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to various sub-panels on the property 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky. 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. This could increase as several of formerly vacant guest residences could be occupied. My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 or more XWPROs? Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control. I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some SA systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is the speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, they leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches that SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, *what's the preferred combining method?* All that I can come up with is a custom 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where the grid is no longer available. Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. Michael -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Sep 18 13:55:58 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 13:55:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002801d9ea59$61993600$24cba200$@mindspring.com> Michael Great questions. We have had great success with the Sol-Arks, starting with the 8’s. Have completed several with twin 15’s and the systems have been great. There was a software/ firmware issues when they first came out. Having spent years installing AC coupled systems ( thought they were great at the time ) the SA’s have made delivering power so much better. Thx peter From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, September 18, 2023 1:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Michael Morningstar Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel. Here's the existing infrastructure. 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to various sub-panels on the property 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky. 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. This could increase as several of formerly vacant guest residences could be occupied. My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 or more XWPROs? Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control. I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some SA systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is the speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, they leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches that SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, what's the preferred combining method? All that I can come up with is a custom 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where the grid is no longer available. Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. Michael -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Sep 18 14:06:25 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 13:06:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Backup Interface Unit "stuck" and won't go back into grid mode after utility power comes back online Message-ID: <017601d9ea5a$d6f559a0$84e00ce0$@solarcentex.com> Have had this issue twice in 2 weeks on two separate sites. The Solar Edge Backup Interface Unit (BUI) disconnects from grid when utility power goes down but will not go back to utility-interactive moved when the grid power returns. Anybody else having this issue when the BUI is "stuck?" Figured I'd ask here before going to SE to see if a systemic issue. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 136365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 18 14:08:05 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 11:08:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Michael, The screenshot from the June Webinar is max for split phase. I have not done one yet but Eric Bentsen says the Back-up control switch that Schneider sells works well and no imbalance. I would say call him but he is in Vegas at the RE+ tradeshow. Definitely not outdoor rated! Surprised that someone would do that with a big system. I would stay DC coupled always for Offgrid but Eric says it is now supported with the sensors in the BCS. Nice to have Insight Cloud showing the whole system. Does anyone ever specify the right loads for Offgrid anymore? Not directed at you BTW. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-09-18 10:12 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. > We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who > have some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel. > > Here's the existing infrastructure. > 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to > various sub-panels on the property > 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator > 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. > Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is > janky. > 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. > This could increase as several of formerly vacant guest residences > could be occupied. > > My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I > looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller > is needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays > during transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully > stacked 4 or more XWPROs? > > Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in > having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty > weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are > mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to > pull out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with > AC coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control. > > I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some > SA systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like > is the speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than > that, they leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have > glitches that SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do > three 15's, what's the preferred combining method? All that I can come > up with is a custom 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. > > Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this > property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building > something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation > where the grid is no longer available. > > Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. > > Michael > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4 xw no pdp's.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 125679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Sep 18 14:34:39 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 14:34:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently. In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with three units. I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup scenarios. It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So that's another required load center. And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a 400A DPDT switch costs. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. We > haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have some > questions before I go about reinventing the wheel. > > Here's the existing infrastructure. > 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to > various sub-panels on the property > 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator > 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. > Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky. > 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. This > could increase as several of formerly vacant guest residences could be > occupied. > > My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I > looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is > needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during > transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 > or more XWPROs? > > Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in > having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty > weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are > mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull > out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC > coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control. > > I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some SA > systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is the > speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, they > leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches that > SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, *what's > the preferred combining method?* All that I can come up with is a custom > 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. > > Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this > property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building > something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where > the grid is no longer available. > > Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. > > Michael > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 18 16:15:30 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 14:15:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F88E8EF-59D8-4600-86BE-C60D92D20571@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Sep 18 16:46:57 2023 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 14:46:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Back Issues of SolarPro Magazine Message-ID: Wrenches, I have a dusty stack of SolarPro magazines and am curious if there are folks on the list who might want them. At a glance I see issues from 2014 and 2017 and presumably they're all from around that time. There are also some copies of Home Power in there. Please contact me off list if you're interested. Sincerely, Sam [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Field Operations Director (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Sep 18 18:36:22 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:36:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: <7F88E8EF-59D8-4600-86BE-C60D92D20571@gmail.com> References: <7F88E8EF-59D8-4600-86BE-C60D92D20571@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing. Jason, That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out. On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw? > > If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with > future expansion capabilities beyond that. > > Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning > for? > > At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high voltage > battery vs 48v? > I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet. > > Jay > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently. In > terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit wiring > diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with three > 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see the > point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled units. > The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not just > combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there is a > code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with three > units. > > I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC > coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the > system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup > scenarios. > > It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the > meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So > that's another required load center. > > And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer switch > to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a 400A DPDT > switch costs. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. We >> haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have some >> questions before I go about reinventing the wheel. >> >> Here's the existing infrastructure. >> 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to >> various sub-panels on the property >> 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator >> 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. >> Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky. >> 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. This >> could increase as several of formerly vacant guest residences could be >> occupied. >> >> My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I >> looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is >> needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during >> transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 >> or more XWPROs? >> >> Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in >> having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty >> weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are >> mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull >> out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC >> coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control. >> >> I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some SA >> systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is the >> speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, they >> leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches that >> SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, *what's >> the preferred combining method?* All that I can come up with is a custom >> 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. >> >> Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this >> property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building >> something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where >> the grid is no longer available. >> >> Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. >> >> Michael >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Sep 18 18:50:09 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:50:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Sep 18 19:15:11 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:15:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size) bussbar On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay wrote: > Sounds like a good design. > > > As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need > Michael. > > How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in > parallel? > > Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way. > Or > Not worrying about different cable lengths? > Or > Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VD > Or > Making all the cables the same length? > > Thx > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Jay, > I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going > to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing. > Jason, > That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time I > ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out. > > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw? >> >> If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with >> future expansion capabilities beyond that. >> >> Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning >> for? >> >> At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high voltage >> battery vs 48v? >> I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently. In >> terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit wiring >> diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with three >> 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see the >> point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled units. >> The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not just >> combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there is a >> code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with three >> units. >> >> I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC >> coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the >> system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup >> scenarios. >> >> It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the >> meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So >> that's another required load center. >> >> And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer >> switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a >> 400A DPDT switch costs. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. >>> We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have >>> some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel. >>> >>> Here's the existing infrastructure. >>> 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to >>> various sub-panels on the property >>> 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator >>> 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. >>> Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky. >>> 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. >>> This could increase as several of formerly vacant guest residences could >>> be occupied. >>> >>> My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I >>> looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is >>> needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during >>> transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 >>> or more XWPROs? >>> >>> Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in >>> having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty >>> weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are >>> mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull >>> out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC >>> coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control. >>> >>> I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some SA >>> systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is the >>> speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, they >>> leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches that >>> SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, *what's >>> the preferred combining method?* All that I can come up with is a >>> custom 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. >>> >>> Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this >>> property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building >>> something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where >>> the grid is no longer available. >>> >>> Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> >>> Morningstar Electric >>> >>> PO Box 1494 >>> >>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>> >>> 530-921-0560 >>> >>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 19 10:11:52 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 08:11:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC5C2AA-E6DD-46EA-9B1E-377230DAFE97@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Sep 19 11:49:13 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 08:49:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: <4FC5C2AA-E6DD-46EA-9B1E-377230DAFE97@gmail.com> References: <4FC5C2AA-E6DD-46EA-9B1E-377230DAFE97@gmail.com> Message-ID: For a general rule of thumb, I use NEC 366.23 "ampacity of conductors in sheet metal gutters". For anything large or needing inspection, I have my electrical engineer design the bussing as he will factor energy density and temperature rise across the bussing. It's pretty straightforward for DC bussing, whereas AC bussing needs inductance and skin effect taken into consideration. It costs me about $1,500.00 to get a stamped design. On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 7:12 AM Jay wrote: > Thx Michael > > How do you calculate buss bar size? > Is there a specific formula or table I can find? > > Thx > Jay > > On Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: > >  > I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and > inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture > of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted > set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr > batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size) > bussbar > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay wrote: > >> Sounds like a good design. >> >> >> As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need >> Michael. >> >> How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in >> parallel? >> >> Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way. >> Or >> Not worrying about different cable lengths? >> Or >> Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VD >> Or >> Making all the cables the same length? >> >> Thx >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Jay, >> I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going >> to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing. >> Jason, >> That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time >> I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out. >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw? >>> >>> If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with >>> future expansion capabilities beyond that. >>> >>> Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning >>> for? >>> >>> At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high >>> voltage battery vs 48v? >>> I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently. >>> In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit >>> wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with >>> three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see >>> the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled >>> units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not >>> just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there >>> is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with >>> three units. >>> >>> I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC >>> coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the >>> system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup >>> scenarios. >>> >>> It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the >>> meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So >>> that's another required load center. >>> >>> And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer >>> switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a >>> 400A DPDT switch costs. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. >>>> We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have >>>> some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel. >>>> >>>> Here's the existing infrastructure. >>>> 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to >>>> various sub-panels on the property >>>> 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator >>>> 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. >>>> Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky. >>>> 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. >>>> This could increase as several of formerly vacant guest residences could >>>> be occupied. >>>> >>>> My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I >>>> looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is >>>> needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during >>>> transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 >>>> or more XWPROs? >>>> >>>> Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in >>>> having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty >>>> weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are >>>> mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull >>>> out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC >>>> coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control. >>>> >>>> I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some >>>> SA systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is >>>> the speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, >>>> they leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches >>>> that SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, *what's >>>> the preferred combining method?* All that I can come up with is a >>>> custom 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. >>>> >>>> Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this >>>> property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building >>>> something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where >>>> the grid is no longer available. >>>> >>>> Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Michael Morningstar >>>> >>>> >>>> Morningstar Electric >>>> >>>> PO Box 1494 >>>> >>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>> >>>> 530-921-0560 >>>> >>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 19 14:08:01 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 11:08:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB In-Reply-To: <4FC5C2AA-E6DD-46EA-9B1E-377230DAFE97@gmail.com> References: <4FC5C2AA-E6DD-46EA-9B1E-377230DAFE97@gmail.com> Message-ID: Storm Copper has tables. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 7:13 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Thx Michael > > How do you calculate buss bar size? > Is there a specific formula or table I can find? > > Thx > Jay > > On Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: > >  > I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and > inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture > of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted > set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr > batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size) > bussbar > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay wrote: > >> Sounds like a good design. >> >> >> As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need >> Michael. >> >> How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in >> parallel? >> >> Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way. >> Or >> Not worrying about different cable lengths? >> Or >> Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VD >> Or >> Making all the cables the same length? >> >> Thx >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Jay, >> I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going >> to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing. >> Jason, >> That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time >> I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out. >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw? >>> >>> If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with >>> future expansion capabilities beyond that. >>> >>> Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning >>> for? >>> >>> At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high >>> voltage battery vs 48v? >>> I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently. >>> In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit >>> wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with >>> three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see >>> the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled >>> units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not >>> just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there >>> is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with >>> three units. >>> >>> I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC >>> coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the >>> system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup >>> scenarios. >>> >>> It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the >>> meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So >>> that's another required load center. >>> >>> And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer >>> switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a >>> 400A DPDT switch costs. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. >>>> We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have >>>> some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel. >>>> >>>> Here's the existing infrastructure. >>>> 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to >>>> various sub-panels on the property >>>> 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator >>>> 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. >>>> Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky. >>>> 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. >>>> This could increase as several of formerly vacant guest residences could >>>> be occupied. >>>> >>>> My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I >>>> looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is >>>> needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during >>>> transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 >>>> or more XWPROs? >>>> >>>> Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in >>>> having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty >>>> weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are >>>> mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull >>>> out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC >>>> coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control. >>>> >>>> I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some >>>> SA systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is >>>> the speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, >>>> they leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches >>>> that SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, *what's >>>> the preferred combining method?* All that I can come up with is a >>>> custom 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. >>>> >>>> Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this >>>> property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building >>>> something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where >>>> the grid is no longer available. >>>> >>>> Any suggestions or tips are appreciated. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Michael Morningstar >>>> >>>> >>>> Morningstar Electric >>>> >>>> PO Box 1494 >>>> >>>> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >>>> >>>> 530-921-0560 >>>> >>>> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> >> PO Box 1494 >> >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> >> 530-921-0560 >> >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue Sep 19 15:16:26 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:16:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2 Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Technical sales, Technical Support Green-Go Solar Distribution kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584 (Cell) www.distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kirk Herander Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault Jerry, Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention? On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Mac, wrenches SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny. Fun times On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis > wrote: Hi William, Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers. Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: William, Wrenches Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. OldSchool fun times On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? Thanks. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 19 15:39:52 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 12:39:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kieran: I have read the documentation. Fortress tech support said there have been problems and recommended open loop. Do you know what parameters are passed with closed loop? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 12:18 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with > the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has > all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - > https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2 > > Thanks, > > Kienan Maxfield > Technical sales, Technical Support > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution* > *kienan at dist.solar* > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* > *www.distribution.solar * > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Kirk Herander > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault > > Jerry, > > Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention? > > On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Mac, wrenches > SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. > Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that > they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command > the genny. > Fun times > > On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi William, > > Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if > Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. > > We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion > batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto > gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always > way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we > could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since > added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in > the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. > > I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so > State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without > that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the > ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery > communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop > communication for many manufacturers. > > Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > William, Wrenches > Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work > correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a > resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not > charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for > what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. > Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be > happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. > OldSchool fun times > > > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny > Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? > > > > Thanks. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue Sep 19 16:43:15 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 20:43:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, I'm sorry, I was assuming that people posting here simply hadn't found these integration instructions. If you have tried these and they didn't work, then I stand corrected. I have no personal experience paring this with SMA... I have some really bad experience trying to pair other LiFePO4 batteries with SMA open loop... I basically try to avoid The SMA Sunny Island products any more, but that's not always an option... I'm curious if you know which tech support agent told you they've been having problems... I was actually giving someone a price to use Fortress with an existing SMA and if they want to go forward, I might contact my friends at Fortress and see if they would want to work with my client's system as a pilot to try to iron out the kinks... Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Technical sales, Technical Support Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584 (Cell) www.distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:39 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault Kieran: I have read the documentation. Fortress tech support said there have been problems and recommended open loop. Do you know what parameters are passed with closed loop? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 12:18 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches > wrote: That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2 Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Technical sales, Technical Support Green-Go Solar Distribution kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584 (Cell) www.distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Kirk Herander Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault Jerry, Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention? On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: Mac, wrenches SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny. Fun times On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis > wrote: Hi William, Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers. Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > wrote: William, Wrenches Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. OldSchool fun times On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Friends: I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? Thanks. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Sep 19 21:41:11 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 21:41:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB Message-ID: As does Watteredge.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Sep 19, 2023 2:09 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BBStorm Copper has tables. William MillerMiller Solar.com805-438-5600www.millersolar.comOn Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 7:13 AM Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:Thx MichaelHow do you calculate buss bar size?Is there a specific formula or table I can find?ThxJayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size) bussbarOn Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay wrote:Sounds like a good design. As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need Michael. How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in parallel?Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way. Or Not worrying about different cable lengths?Or Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VDOr Making all the cables the same length?Thx JayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:Jay, I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing.Jason,That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out.On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches wrote:If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw?  If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with future expansion capabilities beyond that. Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning for?At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high voltage battery vs 48v?I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet.  JayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently. In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with three units.I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup scenarios.It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So that's another required load center.And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a 400A DPDT switch costs.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel.Here's the existing infrastructure.1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to various sub-panels on the property2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky.4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. This could increase as several of formerly vacant  guest residences could be occupied.My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 or more XWPROs?Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control.I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some SA systems under are belt now and the only thing I can say that I like is the speed of installation and the 200amp pass through. Other than that, they leave me uninspired. One very large system continues to have glitches that SA just shrugs their shoulders about. If we were to do three 15's, what's the preferred combining method? All that I can come up with is a custom 400a panelboard w/ three 200a breakers. Price is not a consideration for this project. The new owners of this property (which is plagued with outages) have tasked me with building something that is ultra reliable and good take over in a situation where the grid is no longer available.Any suggestions or tips are appreciated.Michael-- Michael MorningstarMorningstar ElectricPO Box 1494Mount Shasta, CA 96067530-921-0560mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael MorningstarMorningstar ElectricPO Box 1494Mount Shasta, CA 96067530-921-0560mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org-- Michael MorningstarMorningstar ElectricPO Box 1494Mount Shasta, CA 96067530-921-0560mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Sep 19 21:42:39 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 21:42:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault Message-ID: In my comversations with SMA, they made it clear they do not support closed loop comms with anyone at this time.YMMV-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Sep 19, 2023 3:17 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Kienan Maxfield;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2 Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Technical sales, Technical Support Green-Go Solar Distribution kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584 (Cell) www.distribution.solar From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Kirk Herander > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault   Jerry,  Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention? On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: Mac, wrenches  SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny. Fun times On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis wrote: Hi William, Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers. Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: William, Wrenches Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. OldSchool fun times On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Friends:   I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?   Thanks.   William   Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985     _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 19 23:52:20 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 20:52:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glenn: Thank you for that important clarification. I keep mixing up the concept of Fortress supporting the integration with SMA versus SMA not supporting the integration with Fortress. Fortress is all over how you make the marriage work. When I spoke with SMA to ask a question unrelated to the battery choice, I let slip that I was integrating Fortress batteries. It was like a switch had been flipped: The telephone support tech almost hung up on me. I was told that if you are connecting Sunny Islands to Fortress batteries all tech support on any subject would be suspended. I needled the answer I was looking for out of the dude but it was given very reluctantly. This is very awkward. When I was asked to bid this job I did what I thought was due diligence by looking thoroughly at the Fortress site for guidance. I assumed if Fortress thought the coupling would be happy, SMA felt the same way. I must admit it reminded me of many of my romantic relationships. I got a bit of PTSD just thinking about it. I hope this does not cause problems getting information out of SMA in the future. Fortunately for me the warranty is long over. Also fortunate for me is the resource of the experience pool here at the good old wrenches forum. Thanks to all of you for chiming in. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Tuesday, September 19, 2023 6:43 PM *To:* Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches *Cc:* Glenn Burt *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In my comversations with SMA, they made it clear they do not support closed loop comms with anyone at this time. YMMV -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ *From: *Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches *Date: *Tue, Sep 19, 2023 3:17 PM *To: *RE-wrenches; *Cc: *Kienan Maxfield; *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2 Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Technical sales, Technical Support *Green-Go Solar Distribution* *kienan at dist.solar * *(801) 631-5584 <(801)%20631-5584> (Cell)* *www.distribution.solar * ------------------------------ *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <%3cre-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>> <%3cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM *To:* RE-wrenches > <%3cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> *Cc:* Kirk Herander > <%3ckirkh at vermont.solar> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault Jerry, Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention? On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Mac, wrenches SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny. Fun times On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis wrote: Hi William, Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers. Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: William, Wrenches Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. OldSchool fun times On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? Thanks. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Sep 20 00:06:51 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 21:06:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We may want to distinguish between 4248 and the 6048, the 4248 has no capability to connect to fortress and a viable solution is to set the temp sender to77 degrees to peak charge the fortress evault max. Fun times On Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 6:43 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In my comversations with SMA, they made it clear they do not support > closed loop comms with anyone at this time. > YMMV > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches > *Date: *Tue, Sep 19, 2023 3:17 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: *Kienan Maxfield; > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault > > That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with > the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has > all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - > https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2 > > Thanks, > > Kienan Maxfield > Technical sales, Technical Support > > *Green-Go Solar Distribution* > *kienan at dist.solar * > *(801) 631-5584 <(801)%20631-5584> (Cell)* > *www.distribution.solar * > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches > <%3Cre-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>> > <%3Cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > <%3Cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Kirk Herander > <%3Ckirkh at vermont.solar> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault > > Jerry, > > Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention? > > On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Mac, wrenches > SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. > Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that > they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command > the genny. > Fun times > > On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi William, > > Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if > Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. > > We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion > batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto > gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always > way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we > could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since > added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in > the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. > > I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so > State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without > that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the > ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery > communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop > communication for many manufacturers. > > Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > William, Wrenches > Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work > correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a > resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not > charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for > what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor. > Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be > happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries. > OldSchool fun times > > > > On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny > Island System. Does anyone have any experience with this they could share? > > > > Thanks. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Sep 20 13:33:08 2023 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 10:33:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault (and eFlex) In-Reply-To: References: <8752b5baab9b2f0791da97a7cc32deaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <770DAA07-CEB0-49EC-AD77-1FBCA3678AF4@me.com> William, Mac and Wrenches, Though it’s not the specific model William seeks I’ve generally had good luck with closed loop comms paired with the Fortress Eflex. I did have initial setbacks with earlier firmware since the particular setup still had a negative to ground bond but after their helpful tech support walked me through a firmware update it had been flawless for a year. However, somewhat unrelated is that after realizing their IP65 rating has limitations Fortress has recently updated their manual and changed their warranted configurations for outdoor installations and now only allows one particular orientation for the battery. Unfortunately for me the old allowable orientation with the battery upright let enough moisture into the battery to cause one of four to fail. Still a bit of a mystery how it got moisture inside since I do have them in an open air box with a lid year round and EPDM cover during rain and winter months but I accept that perhaps I was putting too much faith in the IP65 rating especially now that they’ve modified their manual. I’m thinking that water condensed on the underside of the lid and then migrated into the battery somehow even though there were no signs of moisture on tops of the batteries. Now after receiving the replacement battery I am getting inconsistent reliability on the communications side. Frequent ext BMS timeouts on the Islands now. Initially started with only the slave and just a few days ago with the master. A complete power down of the batteries and Islands initially resolved the communications handshake but now even that provides no confidence in connectivity. I’ve yet to make the small effort of replacing the cable so still holding some faith that a bit more effort on my part will resolve this latest issue especially since it worked so well initially. This test installation of mine is on a DC Solar trailer and it’s possible communications connections are being exposed to variables not typically found on permanent installs. Also thinking perhaps may be a firmware mismatch between the first three batteries and the new one they shipped under warranty. Hopefully once I hook up their Guardian communications box it will provide some more beneficial insight as well. Like Jerry and may of you, I don’t deploy anything on customers until I am convinced myself so still have not made a firm decision on Fortress. Even though their closed loop communications was extremely simple to set up initially at this point it’s Blue Ion or nothing! I put too much value in my sleep to offer anything else unless it’s a 24v system paired with Simpliphi. If there was a 24v Fortelion or Blue Planet solution I’d be all over it. Separately I’ve had great success with closed loop communications relating to Blue Ions and four Namakas on a Multicluster system. A couple of hiccups initially but going on 20 months without issue now. Another site with a single Namaka and a pair of Islands suffers frequent BMS timeouts but I understand there is newer firmware that may likely resolve that. I wish SMA would release a firmware revision that would allow us control based on voltage versus their SOC algorithms. It would make the Islands so much more versatile and user friendly. Especially after the surplus of inventory due to the DC Solar auctions, lots of opportunity to bring new life to an otherwise impressive product many of us try to avoid anymore. From an outsider’s perspective this seems like a task SMA could accomplish easily. Maybe Michael Mahon has further insight? Nick > On Sep 16, 2023, at 6:04 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi William, > > Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication? I'm not sure if Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not. > > We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to trigger correctly. Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off. For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown. We have since added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has been working very well. > > I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication). One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers. > > Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution. > > From danny at sesre.com Thu Sep 21 11:24:39 2023 From: danny at sesre.com (Daniel Young) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:24:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Darryl, What voltage ranges do you mean? This is AC coupled, so it will rely on a third party solar inverter for the Solar generation side of things. If you mean AC voltage tolerance, I’d assume it gets wider when “off grid” like Outback. The specs and manuals don’t say. Would be worth asking Franklin unless another Wrench has gotten this already? -- Danny Young NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 VP of Engineering Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 12:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Darryl Thayer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. sorry for a dumb question but what is the voltage ranges of the Franklin? On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 4:26 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > wrote: Enphase does generator support as well. Fortunately, I do not need that, so maybe it opens up my options. It's good to know that Franklin supports off-grid. I will reach out to them to confirm. I asked my Enphase rep to run this up the chain of command to see if they would support this installation given that it's kind of high profile and a fantastic marketing opportunity. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 5:17 PM Daniel Young > wrote: I believe they do. They also have generator support with programable SOC trigger points. They can start either 2 wire start generators, or if the generator is existing and has a complicated signaling system, you can actually wire the Franklin smart module to the existing generator ATS and let Franklin kill the AC power to the ATS to force the generator to start. -- Danny Young Engineering Team Lead NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90 Solar Energy Solutions Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 513-448-5176 (mobile) 877-312-7456 (Main Office) danny at sesre.com From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2023 4:35 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)? I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important. I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart. I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful are going to be limited. I don't need any generator integration. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Sep 21 23:27:37 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 20:27:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT with BB Message-ID: <9ffb729f-e795-58cd-d14c-4765b965ac76@psln.com> Jay,             I sent a diagram of my proposed arrangement and bus sizes to SimpliPhi prior to installation, which they approved. The buses (copper 11000) running across the terminals are 1 1/2" X 3/16", they have a rating of 480 amps.  The "bridge" buses are 2" X 3/16" with a rating of 610 amps.  The greatest possible charge-discharge on this pack will be ~327 amps which is only 16 amps per battery.  Typically the max supply is 11.5 amps, loads are less (1, 8048 Radian). The inverter cables are pairs ( +& -) of 4/0. Picture attached.              I'm never going to reach the 30 degree C. rise in temp with these amperages. The reasoning was the amps moving to each battery is so small that even though the batteries at the ends of the buses have more bus to move through, they are so over-sized that there would be a negligible difference in voltage, small enough for the BMS to handle.             I guess the answer to your question is send your proposal to the battery manufacturer, there are charts all over the internet for bus ampacities. The final touch on the way for this installation is a full sheet of plexiglass mounted on the front of the pack with multiple stand-offs.  BTW, the structural is #1, 4 X 6" doug fir, its a 76 Kwhr pack to 100% DOD. We do a lot of car charging around here. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny side up -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SimpliPhi's installed 2-19-23 (1).JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 884065 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 22 19:45:49 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 17:45:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT with BB In-Reply-To: <9ffb729f-e795-58cd-d14c-4765b965ac76@psln.com> References: <9ffb729f-e795-58cd-d14c-4765b965ac76@psln.com> Message-ID: <7399716C-05EE-4697-923E-460DA49A0E79@gmail.com> Hi Bill Looks good to me! I like the idea of all the copper/connections behind a plexiglass dead front. Makes a lot of sense and seems safe. I’m wondering what your inspectors say about it or how you convince them? It’s definitely got me thinking about doing a job I have in mind with buss bars and plexi dead front vs 4/0 cable. Jay > On Sep 21, 2023, at 9:25 PM, frenergy via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > > I sent a diagram of my proposed arrangement and bus sizes to SimpliPhi prior to installation, which they approved. The buses (copper 11000) running across the terminals are 1 1/2" X 3/16", they have a rating of 480 amps. The "bridge" buses are 2" X 3/16" with a rating of 610 amps. The greatest possible charge-discharge on this pack will be ~327 amps which is only 16 amps per battery. Typically the max supply is 11.5 amps, loads are less (1, 8048 Radian). The inverter cables are pairs ( +& -) of 4/0. Picture attached. > > I'm never going to reach the 30 degree C. rise in temp with these amperages. The reasoning was the amps moving to each battery is so small that even though the batteries at the ends of the buses have more bus to move through, they are so over-sized that there would be a negligible difference in voltage, small enough for the BMS to handle. > > I guess the answer to your question is send your proposal to the battery manufacturer, there are charts all over the internet for bus ampacities. The final touch on the way for this installation is a full sheet of plexiglass mounted on the front of the pack with multiple stand-offs. BTW, the structural is #1, 4 X 6" doug fir, its a 76 Kwhr pack to 100% DOD. We do a lot of car charging around here. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny side up > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sat Sep 23 19:28:40 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 23:28:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MAGNUM INVERTERS and breaker issues Message-ID: Wrenches Has anyone confirmed which AFCI, combo GF/ CAFI , or GF only circuit breaker brand names work with the PAE series inverter? The leviton combos seems to freak out! Regards , Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Sep 25 12:20:46 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 10:20:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator question Message-ID: <006e01d9efcc$3e067e00$ba137a00$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: We have a situation where the Sol-Ark 12kW Inverter isn't able to adequately manage the loads and perform auto-gen start other than low battery level. And despite thorough understanding of the customer's initial loads, after he's bought the system, he's continued to add more and more loads - a severe case of load creep. He's got a 38KW generator and we're looking for the components to make the generator load responsive instead of just kicking on when the battery voltage is low. Are there any ideas on switching equipment that can do this and work with the Sol-Ark? We're waiting for a reply from Sol-Ark, but thought you folks may have some ideas. The original design was for a larger solar system and inverter, but the customer balked at the cost and said he'd reduce his loads accordingly. Unfortunately, that has not happened! Now we're trying to bend the laws of physics and have his 38KW generator make up the difference. We need to come up with a means of accommodating the compromised design and now are faced with additional loads -- along with a significantly reduced solar array. Is there a way to make this (2 wire start) generator more load responsive? Thanks for any and all advice! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 25 12:34:47 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 11:34:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator question In-Reply-To: <006e01d9efcc$3e067e00$ba137a00$@OasisMontana.com> References: <006e01d9efcc$3e067e00$ba137a00$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Generators are load responsive. They can not be back feed, one approach is to take heavy loads and have the inverter drop these loading heav load situations. bring these loads on line with a PLC On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:22 AM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > We have a situation where the Sol-Ark 12kW Inverter isn’t able to > adequately manage the loads and perform auto-gen start other than low > battery level. And despite thorough understanding of the customer’s > initial loads, after he’s bought the system, he’s continued to add more and > more loads – a severe case of load creep. > > > > He’s got a 38KW generator and we’re looking for the components to make the > generator *load responsive* instead of just kicking on when the battery > voltage is low. Are there any ideas on switching equipment that can do > this and work with the Sol-Ark? We’re waiting for a reply from Sol-Ark, > but thought you folks may have some ideas. > > > > The original design was for a larger solar system and inverter, but the > customer balked at the cost and said he’d reduce his loads accordingly. Unfortunately, > that has not happened! Now we’re trying to bend the laws of physics and > have his 38KW generator make up the difference. We need to come up with > a means of accommodating the compromised design and now are faced with > additional loads -- along with a significantly reduced solar array. Is > there a way to make this (2 wire start) generator more load responsive? > > > > Thanks for any and all advice! > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Sep 25 13:25:33 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator question In-Reply-To: <006e01d9efcc$3e067e00$ba137a00$@OasisMontana.com> References: <006e01d9efcc$3e067e00$ba137a00$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <3fe9728b5d7cfcac741cfad3814c7401@sti.net> I would trigger genset on Soc. Is that what you are doing? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-09-25 9:20 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi folks: > > We have a situation where the Sol-Ark 12kW Inverter isn't able to > adequately manage the loads and perform auto-gen start other than low > battery level. And despite thorough understanding of the customer's > initial loads, after he's bought the system, he's continued to add more > and more loads - a severe case of load creep. > > He's got a 38KW generator and we're looking for the components to make > the generator _load responsive_ instead of just kicking on when the > battery voltage is low. Are there any ideas on switching equipment > that can do this and work with the Sol-Ark? We're waiting for a reply > from Sol-Ark, but thought you folks may have some ideas. > > The original design was for a larger solar system and inverter, but the > customer balked at the cost and said he'd reduce his loads accordingly. > Unfortunately, that has not happened! Now we're trying to bend the > laws of physics and have his 38KW generator make up the difference. We > need to come up with a means of accommodating the compromised design > and now are faced with additional loads -- along with a significantly > reduced solar array. Is there a way to make this (2 wire start) > generator more load responsive? > > Thanks for any and all advice! > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > www.oasismontana.com [1] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.oasismontana.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Mon Sep 25 14:29:29 2023 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 14:29:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT with BB In-Reply-To: <7399716C-05EE-4697-923E-460DA49A0E79@gmail.com> References: <9ffb729f-e795-58cd-d14c-4765b965ac76@psln.com> <7399716C-05EE-4697-923E-460DA49A0E79@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, I’m curious where you source your bussing and/or especially the “bridge” pieces? Thanks, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Sep 22, 2023, at 7:45 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Bill > > Looks good to me! > > I like the idea of all the copper/connections behind a plexiglass dead front. Makes a lot of sense and seems safe. > I’m wondering what your inspectors say about it or how you convince them? > > It’s definitely got me thinking about doing a job I have in mind with buss bars and plexi dead front vs 4/0 cable. > > Jay > >> On Sep 21, 2023, at 9:25 PM, frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> Jay, >> >> I sent a diagram of my proposed arrangement and bus sizes to SimpliPhi prior to installation, which they approved. The buses (copper 11000) running across the terminals are 1 1/2" X 3/16", they have a rating of 480 amps. The "bridge" buses are 2" X 3/16" with a rating of 610 amps. The greatest possible charge-discharge on this pack will be ~327 amps which is only 16 amps per battery. Typically the max supply is 11.5 amps, loads are less (1, 8048 Radian). The inverter cables are pairs ( +& -) of 4/0. Picture attached. >> >> I'm never going to reach the 30 degree C. rise in temp with these amperages. The reasoning was the amps moving to each battery is so small that even though the batteries at the ends of the buses have more bus to move through, they are so over-sized that there would be a negligible difference in voltage, small enough for the BMS to handle. >> >> I guess the answer to your question is send your proposal to the battery manufacturer, there are charts all over the internet for bus ampacities. The final touch on the way for this installation is a full sheet of plexiglass mounted on the front of the pack with multiple stand-offs. BTW, the structural is #1, 4 X 6" doug fir, its a 76 Kwhr pack to 100% DOD. We do a lot of car charging around here. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> CA Lic 874049 >> Solar powered since 1982 >> Home of the Sunny side up >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Mon Sep 25 17:43:41 2023 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 14:43:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MAGNUM INVERTERS and breaker issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18ace4c4bb3.bfcc183f765076.5683187469829952125@greenwired.com> Hey Jeremy,             I have run into this issue before and the one we found out to work the best is a Hubbell Part# GFRST20W.  Dont know if things have changed since last but give it a try.  Good luck! Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Sat, 23 Sep 2023 16:28:40 -0700 Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches wrote --- Wrenches Has anyone confirmed which AFCI, combo GF/ CAFI , or GF only circuit breaker brand names work with the PAE series inverter? The leviton combos seems to freak out! Regards , Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Sep 25 21:29:50 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 21:29:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 285 Message-ID: Hi all, I have a client with (3) 15 panel TPMs with 6 completely damaged SolarWorld 285s (black) and another 4 that would be good to replace (so he's in need of ideally 10, but he could get by with 6). Does anyone know of a source for these panels (at least ones that are the same footprint and look)? Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Sep 26 00:17:10 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2023 21:17:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GT with BB In-Reply-To: References: <9ffb729f-e795-58cd-d14c-4765b965ac76@psln.com> <7399716C-05EE-4697-923E-460DA49A0E79@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5bf1f905-cc2f-5d36-8fa8-a72da1359869@psln.com> I'm sure Storm Power Components would have done an excellent job of fabbing what we needed but we didn't have the time to work through their lengthy design/quote/build process.  So the bus bars we used were purchased from Mcmaster-Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/products/bus-bars/       they arrived in two days. Bending and drilling the bus bar we used was not that difficult, though you really need to plan out what you're doing ahead of time.  An advantage of having two rows of batteries is the amperage in and out at the paired 4/0 connections immediately gets halved. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny side up On 9/25/2023 11:29 AM, Amos Post via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Bill, > > I’m curious where you source your bussing and/or especially the > “bridge” pieces? > > Thanks, > Amos > > >        Amos Post > Integrity Energy >   W 802.763.7023 >    C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On Sep 22, 2023, at 7:45 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >> Hi Bill >> >> Looks good to me! >> >> I like the idea of all the copper/connections behind a plexiglass >> dead front. Makes a lot of sense and seems safe. >> I’m wondering what your inspectors say about it or how you convince >> them? >> >> It’s definitely got me thinking about doing a job I have in mind with >> buss bars and plexi dead front vs 4/0 cable. >> >> Jay >> >>> On Sep 21, 2023, at 9:25 PM, frenergy via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>> Jay, >>> >>>            I sent a diagram of my proposed arrangement and bus sizes >>> to SimpliPhi prior to installation, which they approved. The buses >>> (copper 11000) running across the terminals are 1 1/2" X 3/16", they >>> have a rating of 480 amps.  The "bridge" buses are 2" X 3/16" with a >>> rating of 610 amps.  The greatest possible charge-discharge on this >>> pack will be ~327 amps which is only 16 amps per battery.  Typically >>> the max supply is 11.5 amps, loads are less (1, 8048 Radian). The >>> inverter cables are pairs ( +& -) of 4/0. Picture attached. >>> >>>             I'm never going to reach the 30 degree C. rise in temp >>> with these amperages. The reasoning was the amps moving to each >>> battery is so small that even though the batteries at the ends of >>> the buses have more bus to move through, they are so over-sized that >>> there would be a negligible difference in voltage, small enough for >>> the BMS to handle. >>> >>>            I guess the answer to your question is send your proposal >>> to the battery manufacturer, there are charts all over the internet >>> for bus ampacities. The final touch on the way for this installation >>> is a full sheet of plexiglass mounted on the front of the pack with >>> multiple stand-offs. BTW, the structural is #1, 4 X 6" doug fir, its >>> a 76 Kwhr pack to 100% DOD. We do a lot of car charging around here. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) >>> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> Solar powered since 1982 >>> Home of the Sunny side up >>> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 07:58:17 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 05:58:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator question In-Reply-To: <3fe9728b5d7cfcac741cfad3814c7401@sti.net> References: <006e01d9efcc$3e067e00$ba137a00$@OasisMontana.com> <3fe9728b5d7cfcac741cfad3814c7401@sti.net> Message-ID: Hello Chris, I think you will find that the generator interaction with the Sol-Ark is very basic and you won't have much flexibility to do this. As far as ancillary equipment to do a load start, one idea that comes to mind is a Victron shunt, Cerbo and GX device. I'm brainstorming a little bit here but if you add the shunt into the battery negative cabling, the Cerbo can be sent the battery current measurement. The Cerbo could then be programmed to start based on battery current. This is a little different than standard AC load start but it may cover what you need. Unfortunately, if the inverter is getting overloaded while its sunny, battery current alone can't catch the solar current that is being sent directly to the loads and shutdowns will still occur. Before you do this, I would suggest contacting Kienan Maxfield of Green-go Solar Distribution (he's on this list) and knows Victron equipment really well. He can probably tell you if I'm off in the weeds... Let us know what you find out. On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:25 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > I would trigger genset on Soc. Is that what you are doing? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-09-25 9:20 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi folks: > > > > We have a situation where the Sol-Ark 12kW Inverter isn’t able to > adequately manage the loads and perform auto-gen start other than low > battery level. And despite thorough understanding of the customer’s > initial loads, after he’s bought the system, he’s continued to add more and > more loads – a severe case of load creep. > > > > He’s got a 38KW generator and we’re looking for the components to make the > generator *load responsive* instead of just kicking on when the battery > voltage is low. Are there any ideas on switching equipment that can do > this and work with the Sol-Ark? We’re waiting for a reply from Sol-Ark, > but thought you folks may have some ideas. > > > > The original design was for a larger solar system and inverter, but the > customer balked at the cost and said he’d reduce his loads accordingly. Unfortunately, > that has not happened! Now we’re trying to bend the laws of physics and > have his 38KW generator make up the difference. We need to come up with > a means of accommodating the compromised design and now are faced with > additional loads -- along with a significantly reduced solar array. Is > there a way to make this (2 wire start) generator more load responsive? > > > > Thanks for any and all advice! > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue Sep 26 14:02:24 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 18:02:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator question In-Reply-To: References: <006e01d9efcc$3e067e00$ba137a00$@OasisMontana.com> <3fe9728b5d7cfcac741cfad3814c7401@sti.net> Message-ID: The Victron idea for controlling gen start is an interesting one for sure. The idea Mac proposed as far as triggering gen start based on DC current is easy to do, but as he mentioned it's flawed because the PV input would effectively reduce the DC current that the shunt sees. The alternative is slightly more complicated, but with a Victron Cerbo-s GX and an AC meter (such as the EM530), you could totally do this based on AC Load amperage. You'd need a RS485-USB cable to connect the two devices together, and you'd probably have to do the programming in Node-Red (all stuff I'd be happy to help with and walk you through). You'd still have the other general Solark limitations (no warm-up or cool-down)... Then again, you could potentially control a second contactor with the Cerbo-S in order to provide warm-up and cool-down... and then again on the other hand, if you're firing up the generator because the inverter can't support the demand, then maybe you need it to take the load over before it has a substantial warmup time... Cheers, Kienan Maxfield Technical sales, Technical Support Green-Go Solar Distribution kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584 (Cell) www.distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2023 5:58 AM To: offgridsolar at sti.net ; RE-wrenches Cc: Mac Lewis Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator question Hello Chris, I think you will find that the generator interaction with the Sol-Ark is very basic and you won't have much flexibility to do this. As far as ancillary equipment to do a load start, one idea that comes to mind is a Victron shunt, Cerbo and GX device. I'm brainstorming a little bit here but if you add the shunt into the battery negative cabling, the Cerbo can be sent the battery current measurement. The Cerbo could then be programmed to start based on battery current. This is a little different than standard AC load start but it may cover what you need. Unfortunately, if the inverter is getting overloaded while its sunny, battery current alone can't catch the solar current that is being sent directly to the loads and shutdowns will still occur. Before you do this, I would suggest contacting Kienan Maxfield of Green-go Solar Distribution (he's on this list) and knows Victron equipment really well. He can probably tell you if I'm off in the weeds... Let us know what you find out. On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:25 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > wrote: I would trigger genset on Soc. Is that what you are doing? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-09-25 9:20 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi folks: We have a situation where the Sol-Ark 12kW Inverter isn’t able to adequately manage the loads and perform auto-gen start other than low battery level. And despite thorough understanding of the customer’s initial loads, after he’s bought the system, he’s continued to add more and more loads – a severe case of load creep. He’s got a 38KW generator and we’re looking for the components to make the generator load responsive instead of just kicking on when the battery voltage is low. Are there any ideas on switching equipment that can do this and work with the Sol-Ark? We’re waiting for a reply from Sol-Ark, but thought you folks may have some ideas. The original design was for a larger solar system and inverter, but the customer balked at the cost and said he’d reduce his loads accordingly. Unfortunately, that has not happened! Now we’re trying to bend the laws of physics and have his 38KW generator make up the difference. We need to come up with a means of accommodating the compromised design and now are faced with additional loads -- along with a significantly reduced solar array. Is there a way to make this (2 wire start) generator more load responsive? Thanks for any and all advice! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 www.oasismontana.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 17:36:09 2023 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 17:36:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? Message-ID: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 26 18:15:29 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 15:15:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Hey David, I wish I could convince my clients to use a no AC power source ignition for baking and broiling. I gave up years ago and never could convince my wife. The power system needs enough storage for winter use of appliances. The ranges now all have convection cooking and some can air fry. There would be a higher divorce rate by trying to avoid the use of 500 watts to run an igniter. Wife acceptance factor or significant other. 😉 If I had to, I would specify another Premier or the Unique. I have a few clients that have a 2nd range in the garage and that is their spare. It avoids the need of service in the dead of winter offgrid. It would be a fantasy to have good appliance service where many of my people live. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-09-26 2:36 pm, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have old off-grid friends looking for advice on replacing an old LP > Gas range. Here is their email they sent me. Wrench advice will be > appreciated! > > * Dave Palumbo > > << We are ready to replace our cook stove, it is a Premier & we love it > but have had problems finding parts for it & people to work on it. > > The only major appliance co who makes a cordless/non-convection oven > range is Hotpoint, which is pretty basic but could work. > > https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint-specs/RGBS200DMWW#tab2_ > > The other one we are looking at is a Unique Appliances brand propane > stove - for off-grid use - their "classic retro" model doesn't have > great reviews but the basic model sounds good. > > > > Off-Grid Classic 30" Propane Range (Battery Ignition) [1] > > uniqueappliances.com [1] > > I'm wondering if you are familiar with the Unique Appliances brand & if > you'd recommend them? > > We also considered the Premier "Pro Series" ranges but they are spendy > & I'm afraid we'll run into the same trouble finding parts & someone > who will work on them, which could also be an issue for Unique. > > Any thoughts or suggestions on the topic? >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://uniqueappliances.com/product/off-grid-classic-30-propane-range/ [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 18:33:12 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 16:33:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413F2699-CCB0-4808-8491-4A3BFF00F95B@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: white-summit-appliance-single-oven-gas-ranges-wnm210p-64_1000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 18:38:55 2023 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 18:38:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: <413F2699-CCB0-4808-8491-4A3BFF00F95B@gmail.com> References: <413F2699-CCB0-4808-8491-4A3BFF00F95B@gmail.com> Message-ID: When all else fails, go to the Lehman's catalog. https://www.lehmans.com/product/brown-gas-ranges/ Daryl On Tue, Sep 26, 2023, 6:34 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I found this brand at Home Depot. > No Ac required. Uses battery ignition. I didn’t look into reviews and Ive > not used it. > Jay > > > [image: white-summit-appliance-single-oven-gas-ranges-wnm210p-64_1000.jpg] > > Summit Appliance 30 in. 3.7 cu. ft. Gas Range in White WNM210P > > homedepot.com > > > > > > On Sep 26, 2023, at 4:16 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hey David, > > I wish I could convince my clients to use a no AC power source ignition > for baking and broiling. I gave up years ago and never could convince my > wife. > > The power system needs enough storage for winter use of appliances. The > ranges now all have convection cooking and some can air fry. > > There would be a higher divorce rate by trying to avoid the use of 500 > watts to run an igniter. Wife acceptance factor or significant other. 😉 > > If I had to, I would specify another Premier or the Unique. I have a few clients that have a 2nd range in the garage > and that is their spare. It avoids the need of service in the dead of winter offgrid. > > It would be a fantasy to have good appliance service where many of my people live. Good Luck! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-09-26 2:36 pm, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have old off-grid friends looking for advice on replacing an old LP Gas > range. Here is their email they sent me. Wrench advice will be appreciated! > > - Dave Palumbo > > > > << We are ready to replace our cook stove, it is a Premier & we love it > but have had problems finding parts for it & people to work on it. > > > > The only major appliance co who makes a cordless/non-convection oven range > is Hotpoint, which is pretty basic but could work. > > > https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint-specs/RGBS200DMWW#tab2_ > > > > The other one we are looking at is a Unique Appliances brand propane stove > - for off-grid use - their "classic retro" model doesn't have great reviews > but the basic model sounds good. > > > > Off-Grid Classic 30" Propane Range (Battery Ignition) > > > uniqueappliances.com > > > > > I'm wondering if you are familiar with the Unique Appliances brand & if > you'd recommend them? > > > > We also considered the Premier "Pro Series" ranges but they are spendy & > I'm afraid we'll run into the same trouble finding parts & someone who will > work on them, which could also be an issue for Unique. > > > > Any thoughts or suggestions on the topic? >> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: white-summit-appliance-single-oven-gas-ranges-wnm210p-64_1000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22328 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: white-summit-appliance-single-oven-gas-ranges-wnm210p-64_1000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22328 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Sep 26 19:07:20 2023 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 16:07:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: There’s definitely a couple thousand price premium added over Premier and Unique but Bertazzoni ranges only use 250 watts when the oven itself is on otherwise does not add to the idle consumption of the house. Over 10 years without issue here at my residence. The newer models are even better yet I believe. ZLine is slightly more affordable, in the copycat territory and offer similar benefits but have not had time to look into the details lately. Good luck, Nick > On Sep 26, 2023, at 2:36 PM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I have old off-grid friends looking for advice on replacing an old LP Gas range. Here is their email they sent me. Wrench advice will be appreciated! > Dave Palumbo > > << We are ready to replace our cook stove, it is a Premier & we love it but have had problems finding parts for it & people to work on it. > > The only major appliance co who makes a cordless/non-convection oven range is Hotpoint, which is pretty basic but could work. > https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint-specs/RGBS200DMWW#tab2_ > > The other one we are looking at is a Unique Appliances brand propane stove - for off-grid use - their “classic retro” model doesn’t have great reviews but the basic model sounds good. > > Off-Grid Classic 30” Propane Range (Battery Ignition) > uniqueappliances.com > > I’m wondering if you are familiar with the Unique Appliances brand & if you’d recommend them? > > We also considered the Premier “Pro Series” ranges but they are spendy & I’m afraid we’ll run into the same trouble finding parts & someone who will work on them, which could also be an issue for Unique. > > Any thoughts or suggestions on the topic? >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 26 19:16:09 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 17:16:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: <15be01d9f0cf$6f4e76d0$4deb6470$@solarwork.com> Our 6 burner Viking only draws 15 watts off-grid, just saying :) one form of happiness is a great stove! ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 17:07:20 -0600 Size: 28458 URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 19:17:42 2023 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 19:17:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: <15be01d9f0cf$6f4e76d0$4deb6470$@solarwork.com> References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> <15be01d9f0cf$6f4e76d0$4deb6470$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Lehman's sells Brown Stoves. They require no electricity. On Tue, Sep 26, 2023, 7:16 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Our 6 burner Viking only draws 15 watts off-grid, just saying J one form > of happiness is a great stove! > > > > ___________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Nick A Lucchese > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 17:07:20 -0600 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? > There’s definitely a couple thousand price premium added over Premier and > Unique but Bertazzoni ranges only use 250 watts when the oven itself is on > otherwise does not add to the idle consumption of the house. Over 10 years > without issue here at my residence. The newer models are even better yet I > believe. ZLine is slightly more affordable, in the copycat territory and > offer similar benefits but have not had time to look into the details > lately. > > Good luck, Nick > > > > On Sep 26, 2023, at 2:36 PM, David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I have old off-grid friends looking for advice on replacing an old LP Gas > range. Here is their email they sent me. Wrench advice will be appreciated! > > - Dave Palumbo > > > << We are ready to replace our cook stove, it is a Premier & we love it > but have had problems finding parts for it & people to work on it. > > The only major appliance co who makes a cordless/non-convection oven range > is Hotpoint, which is pretty basic but could work. > > https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint-specs/RGBS200DMWW#tab2_ > > The other one we are looking at is a Unique Appliances brand propane stove > - for off-grid use - their “classic retro” model doesn’t have great reviews > but the basic model sounds good. > > Off-Grid Classic 30” Propane Range (Battery Ignition) > > uniqueappliances.com > > > I’m wondering if you are familiar with the Unique Appliances brand & if > you’d recommend them? > > We also considered the Premier “Pro Series” ranges but they are spendy & > I’m afraid we’ll run into the same trouble finding parts & someone who will > work on them, which could also be an issue for Unique. > > Any thoughts or suggestions on the topic? >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Sep 26 19:31:06 2023 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 17:31:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: I just returned from a remote off grid site in Northern Canada, and all their propane appliances are by Unique. They are pretty high quality and they've had no problem getting parts for the range, fridge, chest freezers etc on the rare occasions they were needed (damage from helicopter sling load transport, mouse chewed CO sensor wire etc.) I have a Premier Pro Series range at home and love it. I had no problems getting replacement battery sparker cables from them, but that was aboot 5 years ago. (packrat damage). I would steer clear of the cheap Hotpoint etc ranges, poor build quality and frequent problems, and infuriating trying to turn the burners down to low simmer. Had a couple of them and finally upgraded to the Premier. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 26 19:33:50 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 16:33:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: <15be01d9f0cf$6f4e76d0$4deb6470$@solarwork.com> References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> <15be01d9f0cf$6f4e76d0$4deb6470$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Happiness is a great stove! Can I get the Viking model number Dana. Please PM or Wrench it! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-09-26 4:16 pm, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > Our 6 burner Viking only draws 15 watts off-grid, just saying J one > form of happiness is a great stove! > > ___________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philboutelle at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 02:19:58 2023 From: philboutelle at gmail.com (Philip Boutelle) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2023 23:19:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage Equipped Appliances In-Reply-To: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Haven't seen this discussed on the list yet: startups are making appliances with integrated batteries,"Energy Storage Equipped" appliances. Good podcast interview with someone from DOE on how these are being funded and developed This induction range is a 120V/15A plug and play replacement for a gas range, without needing to run a 240V circuit. The 4 kWh battery handles the intermittent peak load, and slowly recharges at 120V. Battery provides backup power during outages, and you can plug a refrigerator in too. I haven't seen any heat pump water heater ESEs yet, but there is a 15A/120V Rheem plug-in HPWH . Neither one is a good fit for off-grid, more for people trying to electrify but want to avoid rewiring the whole house. -- *Phil Boutelle,* *PE, CEM, NABCEP Emeritus* | Energy Engineer philboutelle at gmail.com | M (831) 359-5268 On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 2:36 PM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have old off-grid friends looking for advice on replacing an old LP Gas > range. Here is their email they sent me. Wrench advice will be appreciated! > > - Dave Palumbo > > > > << We are ready to replace our cook stove, it is a Premier & we love it > but have had problems finding parts for it & people to work on it. > > > > The only major appliance co who makes a cordless/non-convection oven range > is Hotpoint, which is pretty basic but could work. > > > https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint-specs/RGBS200DMWW#tab2_ > > > > The other one we are looking at is a Unique Appliances brand propane stove > - for off-grid use - their “classic retro” model doesn’t have great reviews > but the basic model sounds good. > > > > Off-Grid Classic 30” Propane Range (Battery Ignition) > > > uniqueappliances.com > > > > > I’m wondering if you are familiar with the Unique Appliances brand & if > you’d recommend them? > > > > We also considered the Premier “Pro Series” ranges but they are spendy & > I’m afraid we’ll run into the same trouble finding parts & someone who will > work on them, which could also be an issue for Unique. > > > > Any thoughts or suggestions on the topic? >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Sep 27 08:30:09 2023 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 08:30:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane range options for off-grid? In-Reply-To: References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> <15be01d9f0cf$6f4e76d0$4deb6470$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: When it comes to stove/ovens, been using and recommending Roper by Whirlpool for almost 20 years without issues for our offgrid clientele as well as our own offgrid home and shop/office. Zero electric required. Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, Christopher On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 7:33 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Happiness is a great stove! Can I get the Viking model number Dana. Please PM or Wrench it! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-09-26 4:16 pm, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Our 6 burner Viking only draws 15 watts off-grid, just saying J one form > of happiness is a great stove! > > > > ___________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stevemccarney54 at gmail.com Wed Sep 27 08:45:44 2023 From: stevemccarney54 at gmail.com (Steve McCarney) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2023 06:45:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage Equipped Appliances In-Reply-To: References: <17601B10-6416-4E92-9217-6BFA4915F646@hxcore.ol> Message-ID: Hi Since battery reliance brings it's own set of challenges there have been some products that have used built in storage that is battery free. Fridges can be found that use ice in the walls and/or top to store cool. So no battery needed. Mostly used for DC clinics where vaccines are stored but Sundanzer may have some that are more domestic oriented. Another energy storage "appliance" are pumps that can use stored water as a way around the battery. Steve McCarney,President - Sunny Day LLC On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 12:20 AM Philip Boutelle via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Haven't seen this discussed on the list yet: startups are making > appliances with integrated batteries,"Energy Storage Equipped" appliances. Good > podcast interview > > with someone from DOE on how these are being funded and developed > > This induction range is a 120V/15A plug > and play replacement for a gas range, without needing to run a 240V > circuit. The 4 kWh battery handles the intermittent peak load, and slowly > recharges at 120V. Battery provides backup power during outages, and you > can plug a refrigerator in too. > > I haven't seen any heat pump water heater ESEs yet, but there is a > 15A/120V Rheem plug-in HPWH > . > > Neither one is a good fit for off-grid, more for people trying to > electrify but want to avoid rewiring the whole house. > > > -- > > *Phil Boutelle,* *PE, CEM, NABCEP Emeritus* | Energy Engineer > philboutelle at gmail.com | M (831) 359-5268 > > On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 2:36 PM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I have old off-grid friends looking for advice on replacing an old LP Gas >> range. Here is their email they sent me. Wrench advice will be appreciated! >> >> - Dave Palumbo >> >> >> >> << We are ready to replace our cook stove, it is a Premier & we love it >> but have had problems finding parts for it & people to work on it. >> >> >> >> The only major appliance co who makes a cordless/non-convection oven >> range is Hotpoint, which is pretty basic but could work. >> >> >> https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/hotpoint-specs/RGBS200DMWW#tab2_ >> >> >> >> The other one we are looking at is a Unique Appliances brand propane >> stove - for off-grid use - their “classic retro” model doesn’t have great >> reviews but the basic model sounds good. >> >> >> >> Off-Grid Classic 30” Propane Range (Battery Ignition) >> >> >> uniqueappliances.com >> >> >> >> >> I’m wondering if you are familiar with the Unique Appliances brand & if >> you’d recommend them? >> >> >> >> We also considered the Premier “Pro Series” ranges but they are spendy & >> I’m afraid we’ll run into the same trouble finding parts & someone who will >> work on them, which could also be an issue for Unique. >> >> >> >> Any thoughts or suggestions on the topic? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Sep 28 12:51:04 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:51:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level electronics mounting Message-ID: All, Has anyone ever mounted MLEs (optimizers, microinverters, RSDs) on the perimeter of the array or elsewhere instead of underneath the PV module? I never was a fan of climbing up on a pitched roof and removing modules to replace the electronics. And with a recent knee replacement, I won't be providing this service again. In post-surgery downtime this simple idea surfaced. My next job if it's practical is to create jumper module cables to extend down to the electronics, mounted just outside the array on their own rail. Then create a good-looking TBD cover to shield the MLEs from direct sunlight, snow, etc. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Thu Sep 28 13:02:21 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 12:02:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level electronics mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will meet all the bologna rapid shut down unswitched conductor distances with current national electric code? I quit installing building mounted solar arrays a code cycle ago because it became impossible in my view not to have module level electronics. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) On Thu, Sep 28, 2023, 11:52 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > All, > Has anyone ever mounted MLEs (optimizers, microinverters, RSDs) on the > perimeter of the array or elsewhere instead of underneath the PV module? > > I never was a fan of climbing up on a pitched roof and removing modules to > replace the electronics. And with a recent knee replacement, I won't be > providing this service again. > > In post-surgery downtime this simple idea surfaced. My next job if it's > practical is to create jumper module cables to extend down to the > electronics, mounted just outside the array on their own rail. Then create > a good-looking TBD cover to shield the MLEs from direct sunlight, snow, etc. > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Sep 28 17:04:43 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 15:04:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level electronics mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Sep 28 17:19:55 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2023 17:19:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module level electronics mounting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You might run into 110.3(B). The manufacturer's instructions are likely to say the DC leads of the PV module are to be plugged directly into the MLPE. For example, the Enphase IQ7 microinverter instructions state, "Connect the DC leads of each PV module to the DC input connectors of the corresponding microinverter or adapter." Extending the DC leads of the PV module could easily be construed as a violation. And these would be pretty low voltage circuits, voltage drop could become an issue in terms of performance depending on distance. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 5:06 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I like the idea but haven’t used it yet. > I don’t see any code issues with the longer wiring? > > Jay > > > On Sep 28, 2023, at 10:52 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > All, > Has anyone ever mounted MLEs (optimizers, microinverters, RSDs) on the > perimeter of the array or elsewhere instead of underneath the PV module? > > I never was a fan of climbing up on a pitched roof and removing modules to > replace the electronics. And with a recent knee replacement, I won't be > providing this service again. > > In post-surgery downtime this simple idea surfaced. My next job if it's > practical is to create jumper module cables to extend down to the > electronics, mounted just outside the array on their own rail. Then create > a good-looking TBD cover to shield the MLEs from direct sunlight, snow, etc. > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat Sep 30 14:02:56 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 12:02:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dab Esybox Mini 3 pump Message-ID: Hi, Mechanics~ Any experiences with the pump in my subject line? It's variable speed (constant pressure) in a similar category as Grundfos Scala2. I see the Scala2 has garnered some bad reviews for leakage problems, etc. The Esybox Mini seems to mostly have 5 stars. I'd be using it with an unpressurized holding tank, & prolly I can arrange for flooded suction. Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Sep 30 16:09:12 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2023 13:09:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dab Esybox Mini 3 pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97ed8c1bb75e28818e84d83103198c66@sti.net> No experience but I am interested. I see your pump but it has not been out there long. I can't find it a Home Depot which I depend on for really remote clients. Can you get one fixed in the US or parts? Will it be affected by well water? The Scala2 has had failures and seems to last 3 years if the input water has sediment. Grundfos is a pain but they are there and will help for 2 years. Home Depot will give your money back if you use their CC for a year. All ears on this one! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-09-30 11:02 am, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi, Mechanics~ Any experiences with the pump in my subject line? It's > variable speed (constant pressure) in a similar category as Grundfos > Scala2. I see the Scala2 has garnered some bad reviews for leakage > problems, etc. > > The Esybox Mini seems to mostly have 5 stars. I'd be using it with an > unpressurized holding tank, & prolly I can arrange for flooded suction. > > Thanks in advance. The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com [1] > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abrahamsolar.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sun Oct 1 18:53:50 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2023 16:53:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dab Esybox Mini 3 pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Dave Angelini & All~ Dave posted his usual thoughtful remarks, reminding us that "Murphy" of the infamous law is...everywhere... My reply is below his remarks, thanks. "No experience but I am interested. I see your pump but it has not been out there long. I can't find it a Home Depot which I depend on for really remote clients. Can you get one fixed in the US or parts? Will it be affected by well water? The Scala2 has had failures and seems to last 3 years if the input water has sediment. Grundfos is a pain but they are there and will help for 2 years. Home Depot will give your money back if you use their CC for a year. All ears on this one!" Mick replies: I think the "home office" is in Italy & the earliest youtube video on the Esybox Mini was in 2015...so it does have some track time. They call it Mini3 now because they've changed to three vanes in the pump. Here's the contacts page for DAB USA for the intrepid seekers among us: https://dabpumps.us/en/CONTACTS A home sized pressurizing pump with updateable firmware--is that a good thing? But I digress. I gotta hold back on this until/unless there's more feedback from success stories in the field. I'm too old to continue my "earlier adopter" ways. "Do you know how to tell who the pioneers are? They're the ones with arrows in their back." Thanks, Dave, for your always helpful participation. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 15:05:14 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2023 13:05:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 70-100 amp relay Message-ID: <77D0B59F-1975-48A1-B519-71A535264BE2@gmail.com> Hi All, I’ve gotten approval from Atkinson using their GSCM for warmup/cool down for a generator. Now I”m in search of a 70-100 amp 120v-240v coil DPSP NO relay/contactor. There are lots out there but thought someone might have one they highly recommend. It won’t get used much at all. Thanks jay From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Oct 3 17:45:51 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2023 14:45:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 70-100 amp relay In-Reply-To: <77D0B59F-1975-48A1-B519-71A535264BE2@gmail.com> References: <77D0B59F-1975-48A1-B519-71A535264BE2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02BF842C-2BE0-4659-868F-0E1AB56D3672@starlightsolar.com> I'm sold on Gigavac quality. I’m not sure if they have the AC coil option. https://www.sensata.com/products/gigavac-power-contactors-fuses/gv-contactors Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 3, 2023, at 12:05 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi All, I’ve gotten approval from Atkinson using their GSCM for warmup/cool down for a generator. Now I”m in search of a 70-100 amp 120v-240v coil DPSP NO relay/contactor. There are lots out there but thought someone might have one they highly recommend. It won’t get used much at all. Thanks jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 18:11:23 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2023 16:11:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 70-100 amp relay In-Reply-To: <02BF842C-2BE0-4659-868F-0E1AB56D3672@starlightsolar.com> References: <02BF842C-2BE0-4659-868F-0E1AB56D3672@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi guys It’s for a 240vac relay between the generator and inverter so I can do warm up /cool down. It’s a 15kw generator derates to about 10-12 so 60-75 amps is all I am looking for. I’ll put it into a box of some sort. Thx Jay > On Oct 3, 2023, at 3:47 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm sold on Gigavac quality. I’m not sure if they have the AC coil option. > > https://www.sensata.com/products/gigavac-power-contactors-fuses/gv-contactors > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Oct 3, 2023, at 12:05 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I’ve gotten approval from Atkinson using their GSCM for warmup/cool down for a generator. > > Now I”m in search of a 70-100 amp 120v-240v coil DPSP NO relay/contactor. > > There are lots out there but thought someone might have one they highly recommend. > > It won’t get used much at all. > > Thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Oct 3 18:17:12 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2023 17:17:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 70-100 amp relay In-Reply-To: <77D0B59F-1975-48A1-B519-71A535264BE2@gmail.com> References: <77D0B59F-1975-48A1-B519-71A535264BE2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <95670EE8-1E76-466A-AF86-1AED824D7320@mavericksolar.com> I typically use mouser.com or Grainger.com to select a contactor. They a search box form that allows for specific parameters to be entered and products that are available (and in stock) can be viewed. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Oct 3, 2023, at 2:06 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > > I’ve gotten approval from Atkinson using their GSCM for warmup/cool down for a generator. > > Now I”m in search of a 70-100 amp 120v-240v coil DPSP NO relay/contactor. > > There are lots out there but thought someone might have one they highly recommend. > > It won’t get used much at all. > > Thanks > > jay > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Oct 5 12:46:13 2023 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 12:46:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider BTS Message-ID: G'day All, Having a difficult time locating a distributor for Schneider BTS cables for a twin set of XW Pro 6848's. Schneider will not sell these to installers. Please provide me with a source/supplier. Much Appreciated, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Oct 5 17:14:29 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2023 14:14:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider BTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They do come in the XWP box. You can contact me off list for one. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-05 9:46 am, Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches wrote: > G'day All, > > Having a difficult time locating a distributor for Schneider BTS cables > for a twin set of XW Pro 6848's. Schneider will not sell these to > installers. Please provide me with a source/supplier. > > Much Appreciated, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer's > > Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > _www.solarandwindfx.com [1] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com_ > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Oct 9 10:32:53 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 10:32:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking Message-ID: Hi all, I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount option that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about it: 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact energy as each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. Cordless Kit - https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit Corded Kit - https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very long extension cords. Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 9 10:49:24 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2023 07:49:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73f55982f37ce58720ad6302ca2bc6cb@sti.net> Interesting and the closest I have done to this is a ballast mount. I will say I have broken quite a few cordless drills and killed Lithium batteries with big torque. My vote is a genset/ extension cord. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-09 7:32 am, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all, > > I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount > option that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things > about it: > > 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? > > 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? > > It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - > https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 > I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt > makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same > impact energy as each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee > Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have > 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. > Cordless Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit > Corded Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer > > The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt > equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some > very long extension cords. > > Thanks! > -Dave > -- > > [1] > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com [2] > c: (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.sungineersolar.com/ [2] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Oct 9 11:00:23 2023 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:00:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47edc1eb-8876-e73d-4ea0-8fd860c13d36@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Dave, Yes we were one of the early adopters and installed a 32 KW Nuance system last year in CA. Mixed results though I think it's a very exciting concept and believe in it going forward - they are working out the bugs. The new version is much better execution as far as the above ground rack goes than the first version - now ready for prime time.  It's actually a bit overkill now - but very solid.  they fixed the problem of needing two hands for the end clips too I believe. The installation and then pull testing of the anchors can be straightforward but there are some things to watch for: 1. The first test tool they rented or sold to do pull testing was highly problematic - they've fixed that and have a new tool but it is very expensive - Luke (the lead designer) had one at RE+ in Las Vegas last month - I highly suggest you speak with him and arrange to rent the new tool to do the job - do NOT use the first one 2. They have a new wider anchor that needs to be installed before the post platforms - do you have the wide ones or the original ones?  The wide ones are recommended in clay or any wet soil - refer to Luke on that but with the narrow ones we need 2 or even 3 anchors per post in a few wet areas we had. 3. As for your tool questions - we rented a 30 lb impact drill to install the rods - though the dewalt one you show may work - I'd go heavier if you have hard soils.  That last tool you show may do the trick - but for the $100 rental fee it was worth having the big 30 lb impact drill from the rental shop. Make sure you have a chart or write in marker on the rack itself to show the inspector all of the uplift figures you get.  We were in the 1200-2000 lb range for most of our anchors - sometimes we needed 2 or 3 according to their formulae if one anchor doesn't pull enough resistance. Also make sure the chinese finger cable grips are fully pushed all the way down.  We went back after the first wind storm and made sure they didn't move. All has been great with the rack through two winds storms. After many years of pouring concrete into sonotubes - and even after some recent experience with ground screws - I think the ground anchors are revolutionary!  Just got to be installed correctly!  I think it's a winner going forward and Nuance - though a small company - I think is doing a good job making it work. Hope that helps, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design > Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > October 9, 2023 at 10:32 AM > Hi all, > > I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount > option that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things > about it: > > 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? > > 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? > It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - > https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 > I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. > DeWalt makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the > same impact energy as each other, although both are less than the > Milwaukee Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt > ones have 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. > Cordless Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit > Corded Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer > > The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of > DeWalt equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or > some very long extension cords. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 9 11:32:31 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 08:32:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We had wind lift issues so that will effect your installation. I have used the current Nuance product and prior to that the same manufacturer under a different name. Its more than just driving the rods down we had to do a pull out test. We used hydrolic drivers attacked to the rack due to the necessary torq. We have also used ¹/²" rebar hammer drilled down with a hook on the top so that was easy. Fun times On Mon, Oct 9, 2023, 7:33 AM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount option > that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about it: > > 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? > > 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? > It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - > https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 > I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt > makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact > energy as each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. > Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, > which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. > Cordless Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit > Corded Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer > > The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt > equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very > long extension cords. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Oct 10 20:37:18 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 20:37:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] (no subject) Message-ID: DC-DC converters All, It's been 20+ years since this system was installed, but I again need to find a reliable DC-DC converter to replace/complement a Solar Converter model (still working without any issues).. [image: image.png] I'm replacing an old lead-acid 24v battery / SW2024 inverter system with a 48v Fortress 18.5kw evault / 8kva all-in-one inverter. My customer has existing 24 & 12 vdc loads (lights and ham radios) he will keep. Looking at Victron DC converters to do the conversion 48/24v. Any other thoughts are appreciated. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 177706 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Oct 10 20:39:16 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 20:39:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 8:37 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > DC-DC converters > > All, > > It's been 20+ years since this system was installed, but I again need to > find a reliable DC-DC converter to replace/complement a Solar Converter > model (still working without any issues).. > > [image: image.png] > > I'm replacing an old lead-acid 24v battery / SW2024 inverter system with a > 48v Fortress 18.5kw evault / 8kva all-in-one inverter. My customer has > existing 24 & 12 vdc loads (lights and ham radios) he will keep. > > Looking at Victron DC converters to do the conversion 48/24v. Any other > thoughts are appreciated. Thanks. > > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 177706 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Oct 10 20:45:37 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 20:45:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] (no subject) Message-ID: Lots of options on Amazon-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Kirk Herander via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Oct 10, 2023 8:38 PMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Kirk Herander;Subject:[RE-wrenches] (no subject)DC-DC convertersAll,It's been 20+ years since this system was installed, but I again need to find a reliable DC-DC converter to replace/complement a Solar Converter model (still working without any issues)..I'm replacing an old lead-acid 24v battery / SW2024 inverter system with a 48v Fortress 18.5kw evault / 8kva all-in-one inverter. My customer has existing 24 & 12 vdc loads (lights and ham radios) he will keep.Looking at Victron DC converters to do the conversion 48/24v. Any other thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.-- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solarOwner|Principal, VT Solar, LLCCelebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!dba Vermont Solar Engineering802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 177706 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Oct 10 20:48:54 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2023 20:48:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC-DC converters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirk, I’ve had good luck with the Samlex DC-DC converters. Lots of voltage input and output options and pretty easy to work with. https://samlexamerica.com/product-category/dc-dc-voltage-converters/ Hope this helps! -Chris On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 8:41 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2023 at 8:37 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> DC-DC converters >> >> All, >> >> It's been 20+ years since this system was installed, but I again need to >> find a reliable DC-DC converter to replace/complement a Solar Converter >> model (still working without any issues).. >> >> [image: image.png] >> >> I'm replacing an old lead-acid 24v battery / SW2024 inverter system with >> a 48v Fortress 18.5kw evault / 8kva all-in-one inverter. My customer has >> existing 24 & 12 vdc loads (lights and ham radios) he will keep. >> >> Looking at Victron DC converters to do the conversion 48/24v. Any other >> thoughts are appreciated. Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 177706 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Oct 11 10:14:18 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:14:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <554f240f-0e67-e136-3324-4b205cfd8eed@psln.com> I'm looking for opinions and/or real world experience on recommendation for the largest 240V submersible well pump the Sol-Ark 12KW inverter can start/run.  Assume 500 watt load prior to starting the pump, static level of water in well is 75 feet, system psi when it starts is 40. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 10:19:19 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 08:19:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <554f240f-0e67-e136-3324-4b205cfd8eed@psln.com> References: <554f240f-0e67-e136-3324-4b205cfd8eed@psln.com> Message-ID: <8F15CB44-5FB3-490A-A751-CE5AED7E9502@gmail.com> I’d look at a 3 phase pump with vfd/soft start control and eliminate the start surge. Jay > On Oct 11, 2023, at 8:12 AM, frenergy via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I'm looking for opinions and/or real world experience on recommendation for the largest 240V submersible well pump the Sol-Ark 12KW inverter can start/run. Assume 500 watt load prior to starting the pump, static level of water in well is 75 feet, system psi when it starts is 40. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Oct 11 10:26:40 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:26:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark Message-ID: Based on the youtube video of the Sol Ark vs Schneider, I would never promise a customer it would reliably start up a motor load...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: frenergy via RE-wrenchesDate: Wed, Oct 11, 2023 10:11 AMTo: Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches;Cc: frenergy;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-ArkI'm looking for opinions and/or real world experience on recommendation for the largest 240V submersible well pump the Sol-Ark 12KW inverter can start/run.  Assume 500 watt load prior to starting the pump, static level of water in well is 75 feet, system psi when it starts is 40. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 10:31:41 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 07:31:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <554f240f-0e67-e136-3324-4b205cfd8eed@psln.com> References: <554f240f-0e67-e136-3324-4b205cfd8eed@psln.com> Message-ID: Chris, wrenches I have a few off grid or very close to off grid, I run well pumps, booster pumps, septic system pumps, no issues Fun times On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 7:12 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I'm looking for opinions and/or real world experience on recommendation > for the largest 240V submersible well pump the Sol-Ark 12KW inverter can > start/run. Assume 500 watt load prior to starting the pump, static > level of water in well is 75 feet, system psi when it starts is 40. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 10:35:55 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:35:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <8F15CB44-5FB3-490A-A751-CE5AED7E9502@gmail.com> References: <554f240f-0e67-e136-3324-4b205cfd8eed@psln.com> <8F15CB44-5FB3-490A-A751-CE5AED7E9502@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, I have yet to have an issue with the Sol Ark 12K and water pumps. We have numerous off-grid installations with 3/4 HP well pumps with no issues. I tend to find that compressors and inductive motor loads like chop saws are often an issue. Hope this helps, Chris On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:19 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’d look at a 3 phase pump with vfd/soft start control and eliminate the > start surge. > > Jay > > > > > On Oct 11, 2023, at 8:12 AM, frenergy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > >  > > I'm looking for opinions and/or real world experience on recommendation > for the largest 240V submersible well pump the Sol-Ark 12KW inverter can > start/run. Assume 500 watt load prior to starting the pump, static level > of water in well is 75 feet, system psi when it starts is 40. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St.(s > > hipping) > > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > > CA Lic 874049 > > Solar powered since 1982 > > > > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > www.avast.com > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Oct 11 13:02:33 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 10:02:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <554f240f-0e67-e136-3324-4b205cfd8eed@psln.com> <8F15CB44-5FB3-490A-A751-CE5AED7E9502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07cca9dd-e7df-e28e-98ea-f4f79bb3530d@psln.com> Interesting the variation in experiences. Most of my jobs are off-grid these days which almost always means a (reliable) well pump need.  I'd entertain the idea of 3-phase with VFD but that's quite a bit more  initial expense for this customer and possible higher long term costs with the VFD equipment?  Once again, the value of being transformer based (unlike the Sol-Ark) for surge. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 On 10/11/2023 7:35 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Bill, > > I have yet to have an issue with the Sol Ark 12K and water pumps. We > have numerous off-grid installations with 3/4 HP well pumps with no > issues. I tend to find that compressors and inductive motor loads like > chop saws are often an issue. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:19 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > I’d look at a 3 phase pump with vfd/soft start control and > eliminate the start surge. > > Jay > > > > > On Oct 11, 2023, at 8:12 AM, frenergy via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > > >  > > I'm looking for opinions and/or real world experience on > recommendation for the largest 240V submersible well pump the > Sol-Ark 12KW inverter can start/run.  Assume 500 watt load prior > to starting the pump, static level of water in well is 75 feet, > system psi when it starts is 40. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St.(s > hipping) > > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > > CA Lic 874049 > > Solar powered since 1982 > > > > > > -- > > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com Wed Oct 11 13:38:09 2023 From: wlbryce at pineridgeproducts.com (William Bryce) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 13:38:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <07cca9dd-e7df-e28e-98ea-f4f79bb3530d@psln.com> References: <554f240f-0e67-e136-3324-4b205cfd8eed@psln.com> <8F15CB44-5FB3-490A-A751-CE5AED7E9502@gmail.com> <07cca9dd-e7df-e28e-98ea-f4f79bb3530d@psln.com> Message-ID: For high surge and unbalanced splitphase loads, you can’t beat a Midnite Solar Rosie Inverter. It uses Sic FET’s and is rock solid. I have an early unit and it’s starts my 5hp compressor and still runs other loads without a flicker. Runs loads that even my Schneider XW+ would not. Why complicate the installs with a VFD? Just install an inverter that can do what you need it to do? On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 1:00 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Interesting the variation in experiences. Most of my jobs are off-grid > these days which almost always means a (reliable) well pump need. I'd > entertain the idea of 3-phase with VFD but that's quite a bit more initial > expense for this customer and possible higher long term costs with the VFD > equipment? Once again, the value of being transformer based (unlike the > Sol-Ark) for surge. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd . (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > On 10/11/2023 7:35 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > I have yet to have an issue with the Sol Ark 12K and water pumps. We have > numerous off-grid installations with 3/4 HP well pumps with no issues. I > tend to find that compressors and inductive motor loads like chop saws are > often an issue. > > Hope this helps, > > Chris > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:19 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I’d look at a 3 phase pump with vfd/soft start control and eliminate the >> start surge. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> > On Oct 11, 2023, at 8:12 AM, frenergy via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> > >> >  >> > I'm looking for opinions and/or real world experience on recommendation >> for the largest 240V submersible well pump the Sol-Ark 12KW inverter can >> start/run. Assume 500 watt load prior to starting the pump, static level >> of water in well is 75 feet, system psi when it starts is 40. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > Feather River Solar Electric >> > Bill Battagin, Owner >> > 4291 Nelson St.(s >> >> hipping) >> > 5575 Genesee Rd >> . >> (USPS, UPS) >> > Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell >> > CA Lic 874049 >> > Solar powered since 1982 >> > >> > >> > -- >> > > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_-2547911529825450838_m_-8743225692392957001_m_883597431555829303_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 11 14:14:30 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 11:14:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d16e208dd9df604c5a5bbc61b435dc8@sti.net> Look at a variable speed pump from Grundfos. Not as many choices for large pumping apps. The SQ Flex pump is basically a VFD when used with the controller. It can direct run from solar which tells you there is no surge. Even the SQ pump without the controller will soft start and should work with any inverter built for offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-11 7:26 am, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > Based on the youtube video of the Sol Ark vs Schneider, I would never > promise a customer it would reliably start up a motor load... > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: frenergy via RE-wrenches > Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2023 10:11 AM > To: Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches; > Cc: frenergy; > Subject:[RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark > > I'm looking for opinions > and/or real world experience on recommendation > for the largest 240V submersible well pump the Sol-Ark 12KW inverter > can > start/run. Assume 500 watt load prior to starting the pump, static > level of water in well is 75 feet, system psi when it starts is 40. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St.(shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 [1] Cell > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com [2] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & > settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] tel:530.258.1641 [2] http://www.avast.com [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Wed Oct 11 14:22:04 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 13:22:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <7d16e208dd9df604c5a5bbc61b435dc8@sti.net> References: <7d16e208dd9df604c5a5bbc61b435dc8@sti.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 1:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Even the SQ pump without the controller will soft start and should work with > any inverter built for offgrid. > > The SQ pumps work great off grid. Easily run on 24 volt Magnum inverters without even flickering the lights. Super reliable. I would avoid residential size VFD driven constant pressure pumps. I ended up with one at my current house. The VFDs go pretty regularly. My well service company can swap out a VFD in about 20 minutes and they always have a whole bunch of them on their shelves. They apparently do it quite a bit. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 15:13:43 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 14:13:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <7d16e208dd9df604c5a5bbc61b435dc8@sti.net> Message-ID: I have off grid customers where I have them install 1/2 HP pump, also Franklin soft start seems to help, low cost but I do not know how it works, it has a start capacitor I think. On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:23 PM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 1:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Even the SQ pump without the controller will soft start and should work with >> any inverter built for offgrid. >> >> The SQ pumps work great off grid. Easily run on 24 volt Magnum inverters > without even flickering the lights. Super reliable. > > I would avoid residential size VFD driven constant pressure pumps. I ended > up with one at my current house. The VFDs go pretty regularly. My well > service company can swap out a VFD in about 20 minutes and they always have > a whole bunch of them on their shelves. They apparently do it quite a bit. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > http://www.aprsworld.com/ > > > >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 11 15:51:13 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 12:51:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Well pump with Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <7d16e208dd9df604c5a5bbc61b435dc8@sti.net> Message-ID: The Franklin with capacitor Jbox at top of well helps with the surge. It is not what you would call soft start! An ammeter (or a loud generator) on a soft start pump will tell you what you have. A nice slow over 10 seconds ramping up of amps or gen noise when the pump is energized. You won't get this with a Franklin and Jbox. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-11 12:13 pm, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > I have off grid customers where I have them install 1/2 HP pump, also > Franklin soft start seems to help, low cost but I do not know how it > works, it has a start capacitor I think. > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:23 PM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 1:14 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via > RE-wrenches wrote: > > Even the SQ pump without the controller will soft start and should work > with > any inverter built for offgrid. > > The SQ pumps work great off grid. Easily run on 24 volt Magnum > inverters without even flickering the lights. Super reliable. > > I would avoid residential size VFD driven constant pressure pumps. I > ended up with one at my current house. The VFDs go pretty regularly. My > well service company can swap out a VFD in about 20 minutes and they > always have a whole bunch of them on their shelves. They apparently do > it quite a bit. > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Oct 11 17:01:28 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 15:01:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Outback GS8048 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e001d9fc86$1b316720$51943560$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I have a customer looking for an older (10 year?) GS8048 inverter – to match up with one they’ve got. If you have such a beast available, please feel free to contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Wed Oct 11 19:54:43 2023 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 18:54:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOK Batteries Message-ID: Hello brain trust, Anyone have experience with SOK lithiums? Here's my issue. Client has a tiny home and bought their system online (I know, run away...). Whenever they start a larger load (power tool, hair dryer) it pulls too much current and causes the BMS to shut down the battery output. Not necessarily a huge issue, but I cannot get the app (ABC-BMS) to reset the batteries. I log in with the password and it gives me the reset option, but it will not allow me to click OK. Hooking up an external battery charger has been my only successful reset solution. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Kris Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 20:04:19 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 18:04:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOK Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <610D42D2-1838-4775-BE6B-9C3504196B11@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 20:31:14 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 20:31:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes Batteries Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience with using Pytes LiFePO4 batteries? They appear to be a solid option, but have little to no direct knowledge of them. TIA, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 20:40:43 2023 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:40:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have installed two Sol-Ark and Pytes off grid systems so far, have a couple more coming up. So far so good no issues they seem to be a well-built product. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Does anyone have any experience with using Pytes LiFePO4 batteries? They appear to be a solid option, but have little to no direct knowledge of them. > TIA, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 21:41:15 2023 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 15:41:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOK Batteries In-Reply-To: <610D42D2-1838-4775-BE6B-9C3504196B11@gmail.com> References: <610D42D2-1838-4775-BE6B-9C3504196B11@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would call Current Connected in Nevada. They handle SOKs for the US market and I have found there tech support to be knowledgeable and timely. On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 2:06 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Buy another SOK battery so that doesn’t happen. > > Or maybe happens less > > Jay > > > > On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:55 PM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hello brain trust, > > Anyone have experience with SOK lithiums? Here's my issue. Client has a > tiny home and bought their system online (I know, run away...). Whenever > they start a larger load (power tool, hair dryer) it pulls too much current > and causes the BMS to shut down the battery output. Not necessarily a huge > issue, but I cannot get the app (ABC-BMS) to reset the batteries. I log in > with the password and it gives me the reset option, but it will not allow > me to click OK. Hooking up an external battery charger has been my only > successful reset solution. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Kris > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician > BSEE > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Oct 11 21:53:22 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 18:53:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOK Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <610D42D2-1838-4775-BE6B-9C3504196B11@gmail.com> Message-ID: Some of these BMSs are not very tolerant of heavy loads... the heavier load may have triggered the BMS to shut down and go into self-protect mode. It can take a few hours to days for voltage to recover. Isolate the battery from the parallel connections and give a few days of no load time to recover and reset. After that, use a regulated power supply and connect it to the battery to charge. You only need a slight current, usually less than ten amps. Set the power supply up at the base voltage 54 to 56 volts. Last, supplying charge voltage on and off several times can wake up the BMS, but again, I would only try this with a regulated power supply. The bad news is they may have killed the BMS... once you do that, it's a hard sell for most manufacturers to cover under warranty. Good Luck... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 6:42 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I would call Current Connected in Nevada. > > They handle SOKs for the US market and I have found there tech support to > be knowledgeable and timely. > > > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 2:06 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Buy another SOK battery so that doesn’t happen. >> >> Or maybe happens less >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:55 PM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hello brain trust, >> >> Anyone have experience with SOK lithiums? Here's my issue. Client has a >> tiny home and bought their system online (I know, run away...). Whenever >> they start a larger load (power tool, hair dryer) it pulls too much current >> and causes the BMS to shut down the battery output. Not necessarily a huge >> issue, but I cannot get the app (ABC-BMS) to reset the batteries. I log in >> with the password and it gives me the reset option, but it will not allow >> me to click OK. Hooking up an external battery charger has been my only >> successful reset solution. >> >> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> Kris >> >> Shine On! >> >> Kris Schmid >> Legacy Solar, LLC >> 137 West 1st Avenue >> Luck, WI 54853 >> www.legacysolar.com >> 715-653-4295 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >> BSEE >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Oct 11 21:58:23 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 18:58:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SOK Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <610D42D2-1838-4775-BE6B-9C3504196B11@gmail.com> Message-ID: That voltage I gave was assuming a 48-volt system... Of course, this voltage is lower on a 12-volt battery... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 6:53 PM Steve Higgins wrote: > Some of these BMSs are not very tolerant of heavy loads... the heavier > load may have triggered the BMS to shut down and go into self-protect mode. > It can take a few hours to days for voltage to recover. Isolate the battery > from the parallel connections and give a few days of no load time to > recover and reset. > > After that, use a regulated power supply and connect it to the battery to > charge. You only need a slight current, usually less than ten amps. Set > the power supply up at the base voltage 54 to 56 volts. > > Last, supplying charge voltage on and off several times can wake up the > BMS, but again, I would only try this with a regulated power supply. > > The bad news is they may have killed the BMS... once you do that, it's a > hard sell for most manufacturers to cover under warranty. > > Good Luck... > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 6:42 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I would call Current Connected in Nevada. >> >> They handle SOKs for the US market and I have found there tech support >> to be knowledgeable and timely. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 2:06 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Buy another SOK battery so that doesn’t happen. >>> >>> Or maybe happens less >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:55 PM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hello brain trust, >>> >>> Anyone have experience with SOK lithiums? Here's my issue. Client has >>> a tiny home and bought their system online (I know, run away...). Whenever >>> they start a larger load (power tool, hair dryer) it pulls too much current >>> and causes the BMS to shut down the battery output. Not necessarily a huge >>> issue, but I cannot get the app (ABC-BMS) to reset the batteries. I log in >>> with the password and it gives me the reset option, but it will not allow >>> me to click OK. Hooking up an external battery charger has been my only >>> successful reset solution. >>> >>> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Kris >>> >>> Shine On! >>> >>> Kris Schmid >>> Legacy Solar, LLC >>> 137 West 1st Avenue >>> Luck, WI 54853 >>> www.legacysolar.com >>> 715-653-4295 >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician >>> BSEE >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Oct 11 22:48:20 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 02:48:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I own the Dewalt 2 inch 60V rotary hammer you linked and it is totally awesome. You’ll be blown away by it. It’s totally worth it. You might want to make sure to just use the huge 12ah batteries that it comes with… might be a lot of power demand fire smaller 60V batteries… but I regularly use mine with the smaller batteries and I’ve never had a problem. I mostly use it for drilling 2 inch holes in 8” concrete walls for bringing conduit into basements and crawl spaces. It goes through amazingly easily. Everyone who has tried mine has been totally blown away… probably about 8 professionals and contractors. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:33 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi all, I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount option that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about it: 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact energy as each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. Cordless Kit - https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit Corded Kit - https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very long extension cords. Thanks! -Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Wed Oct 11 22:35:44 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 02:35:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pytes Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From what I’ve seen in the discussions here, some people think they’re well made, but when you do need technical support for any reason, good luck… maybe people have gotten some support, but if my memory serves me correctly, the general feeling I got reading the posts was that there was no support. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Oct 11, 2023, at 6:41 PM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote:  I have installed two Sol-Ark and Pytes off grid systems so far, have a couple more coming up. So far so good no issues they seem to be a well-built product. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:  Does anyone have any experience with using Pytes LiFePO4 batteries? They appear to be a solid option, but have little to no direct knowledge of them. TIA, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 12 06:10:07 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 06:10:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On that subject, what bits are people using to drill holes through block/concrete (for 1" - 2" conduit)? We have been using some dry diamond coring bits we buy online, but they don't seem to last. We have had them break off at the weld. Wet coring seems overkill for the relatively few holes we need to make. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:49 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I own the Dewalt 2 inch 60V rotary hammer you linked and it is totally > awesome. You’ll be blown away by it. It’s totally worth it. > > You might want to make sure to just use the huge 12ah batteries that it > comes with… might be a lot of power demand fire smaller 60V batteries… but > I regularly use mine with the smaller batteries and I’ve never had a > problem. > > I mostly use it for drilling 2 inch holes in 8” concrete walls for > bringing conduit into basements and crawl spaces. It goes through amazingly > easily. Everyone who has tried mine has been totally blown away… probably > about 8 professionals and contractors. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC* > > *kienan at dist.solar* > > *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* > > *www.distribution.solar* > > On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:33 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount option > that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about it: > > 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? > > 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? > It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - > https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 > I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt > makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact > energy as each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. > Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, > which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. > Cordless Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit > Corded Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer > > The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt > equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very > long extension cords. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Oct 12 09:06:46 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 09:06:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeff, Thanks for the notes and things to look for from the field. I was not aware that there are two versions of their PowerJack out there, and I'll make sure to get the newer one. Kienan, I'm glad you have had luck with the cordless drill. I am leaning towards that one, and it does have more rated power than some of the corded drills out there. I think the concern will be if the batteries will last long enough for what we need. Although if I end up with 3 batteries and two chargers, hopefully we will not have to wait for batteries to charge. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 6:10 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > On that subject, what bits are people using to drill holes through > block/concrete (for 1" - 2" conduit)? We have been using some dry diamond > coring bits we buy online, but they don't seem to last. We have had them > break off at the weld. Wet coring seems overkill for the relatively few > holes we need to make. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:49 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I own the Dewalt 2 inch 60V rotary hammer you linked and it is totally >> awesome. You’ll be blown away by it. It’s totally worth it. >> >> You might want to make sure to just use the huge 12ah batteries that it >> comes with… might be a lot of power demand fire smaller 60V batteries… but >> I regularly use mine with the smaller batteries and I’ve never had a >> problem. >> >> I mostly use it for drilling 2 inch holes in 8” concrete walls for >> bringing conduit into basements and crawl spaces. It goes through amazingly >> easily. Everyone who has tried mine has been totally blown away… probably >> about 8 professionals and contractors. >> >> Thanks, >> Kienan >> >> *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC* >> >> *kienan at dist.solar* >> >> *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* >> >> *www.distribution.solar* >> >> On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:33 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi all, >> >> I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount >> option that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about >> it: >> >> 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? >> >> 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? >> It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - >> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 >> I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt >> makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact >> energy as each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. >> Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, >> which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. >> Cordless Kit - >> https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit >> Corded Kit - >> https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer >> >> The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt >> equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very >> long extension cords. >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 12 09:32:30 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 07:32:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Thu Oct 12 11:04:36 2023 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 11:04:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APSystems Micros Message-ID: Wrenches Anyone have experience/thoughts on the APSystems 2:1 single phase micros. I don’t see much in the archives and the internet has some mixed reviews. I’m mostly on the Enphase band wagon, but interested in knowing if APS could be considered as a more cost efficient option for larger single phase projects… Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Oct 12 20:06:18 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 20:06:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Line Side Tap Message-ID: <18dfd12357ff026e00e7f4d81096db70@redwoodalliance.org> We have a design where the conductors will come out of a 400 A meter base to a junction box. Splices in the box will allow for the PV to feed the meter. A maximum of 312 Amps can come from the inverters to feed the grid. The loads on the existing main service are significantly less than 200A. The service is rated at 200 A, 3 phase delta. The conductors from the meter would be rated at 400 A to the splice, as would the conductors to the photovoltaic system. The conductors to the existing service would be downsized to 200 A. We were told that the bus bar rating of the service must also be 400 A, even though the output of the PV does not feed through that box. Is there a rule that says this? What would be the logic? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 69a02214.png Type: image/png Size: 48188 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Thu Oct 12 20:31:55 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 17:31:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Line Side Tap In-Reply-To: <18dfd12357ff026e00e7f4d81096db70@redwoodalliance.org> References: <18dfd12357ff026e00e7f4d81096db70@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake I think you’re right and they’re wrong, as long as the 200A bus is protected by a 200A breaker, and as long as the Utility meter and utility conductors remain 400 David On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 5:06 PM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We have a design where the conductors will come out of a 400 A meter base > to a junction box. Splices in the box will allow for the PV to feed the > meter. > > A maximum of 312 Amps can come from the inverters to feed the grid. > > The loads on the existing main service are significantly less than 200A. > The service is rated at 200 A, 3 phase delta. > > > > > The conductors from the meter would be rated at 400 A to the splice, as > would the conductors to the photovoltaic system. The conductors to the > existing service would be downsized to 200 A. > > We were told that the bus bar rating of the service must also be 400 A, > even though the output of the PV does not feed through that box. Is there a > rule that says this? What would be the logic? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 69a02214.png Type: image/png Size: 48188 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Oct 13 00:28:24 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 04:28:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848's this year? In recent months I've had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; one charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped out), and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, and another have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it's gone dark. I've sold, serviced, and installed 100's of XW's starting with Beta 001 and can't think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned return service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been wildly inconsistent and presently unresponsive. Thanks, Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Oct 13 09:29:23 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 07:29:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Line Side Tap In-Reply-To: References: <18dfd12357ff026e00e7f4d81096db70@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <02f901d9fdd9$4854ae20$d8fe0a60$@solarwork.com> Repost of 2 types of interconnection: this was for dealing with a 100A service. Definitely the opposite of a 400A but I hop[e applicable. ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "david quattro via RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Line Side Tap Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 18:31:55 -0600 Size: 78534 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Interconnection Types (flat).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 177755 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 10:45:27 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 07:45:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird and sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to no avail. Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never had an XW with issues before. On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 9:29 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848’s this > year? In recent months I’ve had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; one > charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped out), > and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, and another > have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it’s gone dark. > > > > I’ve sold, serviced, and installed 100’s of XW’s starting with Beta 001 > and can’t think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned return > service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been wildly > inconsistent and presently unresponsive. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kevin Pegg > > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 10:54:28 2023 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 04:54:28 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a 7 year-old one die 1.5 months ago. F41 APS Under Voltage. No ugly sounds. Just no power. I don't have many out there but this is the first. Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 345 6762 On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 4:47 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird and > sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to no avail. > Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never had an XW with > issues before. > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 9:29 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848’s this >> year? In recent months I’ve had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; one >> charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped out), >> and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, and another >> have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it’s gone dark. >> >> >> >> I’ve sold, serviced, and installed 100’s of XW’s starting with Beta 001 >> and can’t think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned return >> service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been wildly >> inconsistent and presently unresponsive. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Kevin Pegg >> >> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. >> >> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Oct 13 11:01:39 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 08:01:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Line Side Tap In-Reply-To: <02f901d9fdd9$4854ae20$d8fe0a60$@solarwork.com> References: <18dfd12357ff026e00e7f4d81096db70@redwoodalliance.org> <02f901d9fdd9$4854ae20$d8fe0a60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana in your first example it looks like 120A of solar is pushing onto a 100A utility meter, over #3 copper which cannot handle 120A. But I might be missing something. On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 6:29 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Repost of 2 types of interconnection: this was for dealing with a 100A > service. Definitely the opposite of a 400A but I hop[e applicable. > > > > ___________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 11:37:36 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 09:37:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Oct 13 11:39:21 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 08:39:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <813cb40558d8b449c5c88fab18ec57c5@sti.net> It must be an XW+ that died. The XW pro field circuit validation testing beta was complete in early 2019. That XWP is still working fine for me. Not many failures unless the installer did not use surge protection. If it was an XWP and you filled out the 10 year warranty, they might have your back still. If you troubleshoot xw and find it is the power bridge PCB, I see them available on Ebay. Schneider has not provided parts for out of warranty devices for 10 years now. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-13 7:54 am, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > I had a 7 year-old one die 1.5 months ago. > F41 APS Under Voltage. > No ugly sounds. Just no power. > I don't have many out there but this is the first. > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > (808) 345 6762 > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 4:47 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird > and sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to no > avail. Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never had > an XW with issues before. > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 9:29 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848's > this year? In recent months I've had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; > one charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped > out), and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, > and another have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it's gone > dark. > > I've sold, serviced, and installed 100's of XW's starting with Beta 001 > and can't think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned > return service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been > wildly inconsistent and presently unresponsive. > > Thanks, > > Kevin Pegg > > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 12:08:20 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 10:08:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: <813cb40558d8b449c5c88fab18ec57c5@sti.net> References: <813cb40558d8b449c5c88fab18ec57c5@sti.net> Message-ID: <7E5AFE18-89DF-4FD7-8F03-3EF53B221CDA@gmail.com> In my buddies case, most definitely XW Pro jay > On Oct 13, 2023, at 9:39 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > It must be an XW+ that died. The XW pro field circuit validation testing beta was complete in early 2019. > > That XWP is still working fine for me. Not many failures unless the installer did not use surge protection. > If it was an XWP and you filled out the 10 year warranty, they might have your back still. > > If you troubleshoot xw and find it is the power bridge PCB, I see them available on Ebay. > Schneider has not provided parts for out of warranty devices for 10 years now. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On 2023-10-13 7:54 am, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> I had a 7 year-old one die 1.5 months ago. >> F41 APS Under Voltage. >> No ugly sounds. Just no power. >> I don't have many out there but this is the first. >> >> >> Aloha, >> >> Lou Russo >> (808) 345 6762 >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 4:47 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird and sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to no avail. Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never had an XW with issues before. >> >> On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 9:29 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848's this year? In recent months I've had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; one charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped out), and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, and another have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it's gone dark. >> >> >> >> I've sold, serviced, and installed 100's of XW's starting with Beta 001 and can't think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned return service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been wildly inconsistent and presently unresponsive. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Kevin Pegg >> >> EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. >> >> Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> Morningstar Electric >> PO Box 1494 >> Mount Shasta, CA 96067 >> 530-921-0560 >> mjmorningstar at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 14:19:33 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:19:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: <7E5AFE18-89DF-4FD7-8F03-3EF53B221CDA@gmail.com> References: <813cb40558d8b449c5c88fab18ec57c5@sti.net> <7E5AFE18-89DF-4FD7-8F03-3EF53B221CDA@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've only installed one and it is an ongoing nightmare. Almost burned the customers house down with exploding batteries. Voltages all set properly but the unit ignored all settings and went up to 67 volts while I watched and who knows how high it would have gone if I had not shut the system down. Luckily the owner of the spart time home has been there when it needed to be shut down. A grid tie system that has been off line most of its 10 year life. First time Schneider tech support said it must be wrong settings. I had gone over them many times and with another tech with me and there were no incorrect settings. After more than a year, they admitted that the firmware was bad. Wasted another whole day getting the firmware upgraded and it worked for awhile and then did the same thing. Worked OK the last two years after replacing the batteries for the second time and then suddenly it started using lots of water and is doing it again. Not to mention the AGS module not working with the firmware. A New module still has same problem. All wiring tested. I have seen XW's (not my install) making loud noises and seeming to have issues but I wasn't going to touch them Told them to get the original installing company to check it out. I'm about to rip my problem child off the wall and put in a Radian. I've installed dozens with only 2 needing any attention with power supply board and a power module, all quick fixes. John Blittersdorf On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 12:12 PM jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > In my buddies case, most definitely XW Pro > > jay > > On Oct 13, 2023, at 9:39 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > It must be an XW+ that died. The XW pro field circuit validation testing beta was complete in early 2019. > > That XWP is still working fine for me. Not many failures unless the installer did not use surge protection. > If it was an XWP and you filled out the 10 year warranty, they might have your back still. > > If you troubleshoot xw and find it is the power bridge PCB, I see them available on Ebay. > Schneider has not provided parts for out of warranty devices for 10 years now. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-10-13 7:54 am, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I had a 7 year-old one die 1.5 months ago. > F41 APS Under Voltage. > No ugly sounds. Just no power. > I don't have many out there but this is the first. > > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > (808) 345 6762 > > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 4:47 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird and > sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to no avail. > Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never had an XW with > issues before. > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 9:29 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848's this > year? In recent months I've had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; one > charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped out), > and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, and another > have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it's gone dark. > > > > I've sold, serviced, and installed 100's of XW's starting with Beta 001 > and can't think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned return > service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been wildly > inconsistent and presently unresponsive. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Kevin Pegg > > EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. > > Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > 530-921-0560 > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Oct 13 16:51:33 2023 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 16:51:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Line Side Tap In-Reply-To: <18dfd12357ff026e00e7f4d81096db70@redwoodalliance.org> References: <18dfd12357ff026e00e7f4d81096db70@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <06ed1c78-e9d3-48aa-c8da-1518ba1e8eb0@entech-engineering.com> The intent of the line side tap, was to allow larger pv systems to interconnect to the SE conductors and not have to consider the service panel. So, I agree with others that the service panel has no consideration for what you are doing. The panel is protected by the MSP Breaker.  Chris On 10/12/2023 8:06 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > We have a design where the conductors will come out of a 400 A meter > base to a junction box. Splices in the box will allow for the PV to > feed the meter. > A maximum of 312 Amps can come from the inverters to feed the grid. > > The loads on the existing main service are significantly less than > 200A. The service is rated at 200 A, 3 phase delta. > > > > The conductors from the meter would be rated at 400 A to the splice, > as would the conductors to the photovoltaic system. The conductors to > the existing service would be downsized to 200 A. > > We were told that the bus bar rating of the service must also be 400 > A, even though the output of the PV does not feed through that box. Is > there a rule that says this? What would be the logic? > Thank you, > Drake > > /Drake Chamberlin/ > > /Athens Electric LLC/ > > /Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810/ > > /NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 69a02214.png Type: image/png Size: 48188 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cwarfel.vcf Type: text/vcard Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Fri Oct 13 20:04:44 2023 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahle) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:04:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures References: Message-ID: <2FC2B1E9-9721-4E18-819A-B00F074E4351@pacific.net> Hey bleeding edgers, So being alarmed at what I was reading and halfway through purchasing a dual stack XW Pro package I emailed Eric Benson with my concerns and pasted your four descriptive posts with it and my plans to reconsider my choice before committing to problems some have had and I dont need. I pointed out the many solid installs some have had and that this appears to be a new problem in the unit, not the installation or older production runs. Here is his initial response including reaching out to him if tech help is uh, unresponsive. > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Eric Bentsen > Subject: Re: XW Pro problems > Date: October 13, 2023 at 4:09:44 PM PDT > To: Wallace Stahle > > Hi Wallace, > It sounds like someone loaded the wrong firmware, or they attempted calibration without reading the guide. We have thousands of successfully installed XW Pro units in single and multi-unit systems. If anyone on wrenches needs assistance and is unable to reach tech support, they can reach out to me directly. Most issues installers face in the field related to loud buzzing are because they don't follow the commissioning guide on the website, which includes upgrading firmware in InsightLocal first, then upgrade XW Pro unit(s), then restore each XW Pro to ALL factory defaults, finally apply region code. These steps are necessary, in the correct order, to have a smooth commissioning experience. > Let me know how I can help. > Eric > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 FE 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > Internal > From: Wallace Stahle > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 3:12:47 PM > To: Eric Bentsen > Subject: XW Pro problems > > [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] > > > Hello Eric, > > So I just ordered a pair of MPPT 600/100 controllers and PDP for two inverters ahead of the 2 XW Pros that will go in later and I read some posts from experienced installers and realize I can not proceed with the install given these reports from four Re-Wrenches. See pasted comments below. > > The customers need for reliable power supply is critical. > I can not afford the time, trips, on hold phone time and frustration involved with remedies for these problems even if covered under warranty. Tech help generally presumes installer error when problems arise and getting them/you to acknowledge faulty product is an uphill rock rolling experience. > > Your thoughts? > > Wallace Stahle > Future Electric Energy Co > PO Box 236 > Willits, CA 95490 > 707-459-0474 > Lic.#C10-762093 > future at pacific.net > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848’s this year? In recent months I’ve had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; one charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped out), and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, and another have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it’s gone dark. > > I’ve sold, serviced, and installed 100’s of XW’s starting with Beta 001 and can’t think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned return service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been wildly inconsistent and presently unresponsive. > > Thanks, > > Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird and sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to no avail. Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never had an XW with issues before. > > I have a buddy that has had two different stacked pairs with issues. > It took months of back and forth on the one which they did replace them however one of the inverters sent from Schneider was a euro 230/50hz. Taking another trip and more delay. > > And same guy, another project with monitoring etc they refused to do anything and the client had the money to just replace them with another brand, and it’s been working fine ever since. > > Not a good situation > > I've only installed one and it is an ongoing nightmare. Almost burned the customers house down with exploding batteries. > Voltages all set properly but the unit ignored all settings and went up to 67 volts while I watched and who knows how high it would have gone if I had not shut the system down. Luckily the owner of the spart time home has been there when it needed to be shut down. > A grid tie system that has been off line most of its 10 year life. First time Schneider tech support said it must be wrong settings. I had gone over them many times and with another tech with me and there were no incorrect settings. After more than a year, they admitted that the firmware was bad. Wasted another whole day getting the firmware upgraded and it worked for awhile and then did the same thing. Worked OK the last two years after replacing the batteries for the second time and then suddenly it started using lots of water and is doing it again. Not to mention the AGS module not working with the firmware. A New module still has same problem. All wiring tested. I have seen XW's (not my install) making loud noises and seeming to have issues but I wasn't going to touch them Told them to get the original installing company to check it out. > > I'm about to rip my problem child off the wall and put in a Radian. I've installed dozens with only 2 needing any attention with power supply board and a power module, all quick fixes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Sat Oct 14 00:47:59 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 04:47:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: <2FC2B1E9-9721-4E18-819A-B00F074E4351@pacific.net> References: <2FC2B1E9-9721-4E18-819A-B00F074E4351@pacific.net> Message-ID: Hi Wallace, Interesting. Eric has in the past been responsive to my queries. I emailed him over 1 week ago about my most recently failed XWPro and have not heard back. I see he is replying fairly rapidly to your query. I shall bug him more next week. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 5:05 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Wallace Stahle Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures Hey bleeding edgers, So being alarmed at what I was reading and halfway through purchasing a dual stack XW Pro package I emailed Eric Benson with my concerns and pasted your four descriptive posts with it and my plans to reconsider my choice before committing to problems some have had and I dont need. I pointed out the many solid installs some have had and that this appears to be a new problem in the unit, not the installation or older production runs. Here is his initial response including reaching out to him if tech help is uh, unresponsive. Begin forwarded message: From: Eric Bentsen > Subject: Re: XW Pro problems Date: October 13, 2023 at 4:09:44 PM PDT To: Wallace Stahle > Hi Wallace, It sounds like someone loaded the wrong firmware, or they attempted calibration without reading the guide. We have thousands of successfully installed XW Pro units in single and multi-unit systems. If anyone on wrenches needs assistance and is unable to reach tech support, they can reach out to me directly. Most issues installers face in the field related to loud buzzing are because they don't follow the commissioning guide on the website, which includes upgrading firmware in InsightLocal first, then upgrade XW Pro unit(s), then restore each XW Pro to ALL factory defaults, finally apply region code. These steps are necessary, in the correct order, to have a smooth commissioning experience. Let me know how I can help. Eric Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 FE 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Get Outlook for Android Internal ________________________________ From: Wallace Stahle > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 3:12:47 PM To: Eric Bentsen > Subject: XW Pro problems [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ Hello Eric, So I just ordered a pair of MPPT 600/100 controllers and PDP for two inverters ahead of the 2 XW Pros that will go in later and I read some posts from experienced installers and realize I can not proceed with the install given these reports from four Re-Wrenches. See pasted comments below. The customers need for reliable power supply is critical. I can not afford the time, trips, on hold phone time and frustration involved with remedies for these problems even if covered under warranty. Tech help generally presumes installer error when problems arise and getting them/you to acknowledge faulty product is an uphill rock rolling experience. Your thoughts? Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net Hello Wrenches, Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848’s this year? In recent months I’ve had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; one charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped out), and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, and another have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it’s gone dark. I’ve sold, serviced, and installed 100’s of XW’s starting with Beta 001 and can’t think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned return service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been wildly inconsistent and presently unresponsive. Thanks, Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird and sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to no avail. Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never had an XW with issues before. I have a buddy that has had two different stacked pairs with issues. It took months of back and forth on the one which they did replace them however one of the inverters sent from Schneider was a euro 230/50hz. Taking another trip and more delay. And same guy, another project with monitoring etc they refused to do anything and the client had the money to just replace them with another brand, and it’s been working fine ever since. Not a good situation I've only installed one and it is an ongoing nightmare. Almost burned the customers house down with exploding batteries. Voltages all set properly but the unit ignored all settings and went up to 67 volts while I watched and who knows how high it would have gone if I had not shut the system down. Luckily the owner of the spart time home has been there when it needed to be shut down. A grid tie system that has been off line most of its 10 year life. First time Schneider tech support said it must be wrong settings. I had gone over them many times and with another tech with me and there were no incorrect settings. After more than a year, they admitted that the firmware was bad. Wasted another whole day getting the firmware upgraded and it worked for awhile and then did the same thing. Worked OK the last two years after replacing the batteries for the second time and then suddenly it started using lots of water and is doing it again. Not to mention the AGS module not working with the firmware. A New module still has same problem. All wiring tested. I have seen XW's (not my install) making loud noises and seeming to have issues but I wasn't going to touch them Told them to get the original installing company to check it out. I'm about to rip my problem child off the wall and put in a Radian. I've installed dozens with only 2 needing any attention with power supply board and a power module, all quick fixes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Oct 14 12:32:39 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2023 09:32:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: References: <2FC2B1E9-9721-4E18-819A-B00F074E4351@pacific.net> Message-ID: Eric has been great! You may have to remind him in a follow-up as he has a very busy schedule. I know he appreciates the people who show-up for the training webinars. I must say that I hardly ever see anyone from the list here in the live webinars. Maybe they watch the replays? I also am amazed that an installer would need to call tech-support to do a first install. Why would someone pay you to learn on their power system? If you really feel you have been wronged by Schneider inside the 10 year XWpro warranty, get me your case number and I will follow up with the other side of your argument. There always are 2 sides. 😉 https://solar.se.com/us/en/xw-pro-commissioning-guide/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-13 9:47 pm, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Wallace, > > Interesting. Eric has in the past been responsive to my queries. I > emailed him over 1 week ago about my most recently failed XWPro and > have not heard back. I see he is replying fairly rapidly to your query. > I shall bug him more next week. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Wallace Stahle via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 5:05 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Wallace Stahle > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures > > Hey bleeding edgers, > > So being alarmed at what I was reading and halfway through purchasing a > dual stack XW Pro package I emailed Eric Benson with my concerns and > pasted your four descriptive posts with it and my plans to > reconsider my choice before committing to problems some have had and I > dont need. I pointed out the many solid installs some have had and that > this appears to be a new problem in the unit, not the installation or > older production runs. > > Here is his initial response including reaching out to him if tech help > is uh, unresponsive. > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Eric Bentsen >> >> Subject: Re: XW Pro problems >> >> Date: October 13, 2023 at 4:09:44 PM PDT >> >> To: Wallace Stahle >> >> Hi Wallace, >> >> It sounds like someone loaded the wrong firmware, or they attempted >> calibration without reading the guide. We have thousands of >> successfully installed XW Pro units in single and multi-unit systems. >> If anyone on wrenches needs assistance and is unable to reach tech >> support, they can reach out to me directly. Most issues installers >> face in the field related to loud buzzing are because they don't >> follow the commissioning guide on the website, which includes >> upgrading firmware in InsightLocal first, then upgrade XW Pro unit(s), >> then restore each XW Pro to ALL factory defaults, finally apply region >> code. These steps are necessary, in the correct order, to have a >> smooth commissioning experience. >> >> Let me know how I can help. >> >> Eric >> >> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 FE 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone >> Get Outlook for Android [1] >> >> Internal >> >> ------------------------- >> >> From: Wallace Stahle >> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2023 3:12:47 PM >> To: Eric Bentsen >> Subject: XW Pro problems >> >> [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] >> >> ------------------------- >> >> Hello Eric, >> >> So I just ordered a pair of MPPT 600/100 controllers and PDP for two >> inverters ahead of the 2 XW Pros that will go in later and I read some >> posts from experienced installers and realize I can not proceed with >> the install given these reports from four Re-Wrenches. See pasted >> comments below. >> >> The customers need for reliable power supply is critical. >> >> I can not afford the time, trips, on hold phone time and frustration >> involved with remedies for these problems even if covered under >> warranty. Tech help generally presumes installer error when problems >> arise and getting them/you to acknowledge faulty product is an uphill >> rock rolling experience. >> >> Your thoughts? >> >> Wallace Stahle >> >> Future Electric Energy Co >> >> PO Box 236 >> >> Willits, CA 95490 >> >> 707-459-0474 >> >> Lic.#C10-762093 >> >> future at pacific.net >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848's >> this year? In recent months I've had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; >> one charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it >> tripped out), and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just >> failed, and another have yet to take the long drive to figure out but >> it's gone dark. >> >> I've sold, serviced, and installed 100's of XW's starting with Beta >> 001 and can't think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned >> return service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been >> wildly inconsistent and presently unresponsive. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird >> and sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to >> no avail. Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never >> had an XW with issues before. >> >> I have a buddy that has had two different stacked pairs with issues. >> >> It took months of back and forth on the one which they did replace >> them however one of the inverters sent from Schneider was a euro >> 230/50hz. Taking another trip and more delay. >> >> And same guy, another project with monitoring etc they refused to do >> anything and the client had the money to just replace them with >> another brand, and it's been working fine ever since. >> >> Not a good situation >> >> I've only installed one and it is an ongoing nightmare. Almost burned >> the customers house down with exploding batteries. >> >> Voltages all set properly but the unit ignored all settings and went >> up to 67 volts while I watched and who knows how high it would have >> gone if I had not shut the system down. Luckily the owner of the spart >> time home has been there when it needed to be shut down. >> >> A grid tie system that has been off line most of its 10 year life. >> First time Schneider tech support said it must be wrong settings. I >> had gone over them many times and with another tech with me and there >> were no incorrect settings. After more than a year, they admitted >> that the firmware was bad. Wasted another whole day getting the >> firmware upgraded and it worked for awhile and then did the same >> thing. Worked OK the last two years after replacing the batteries for >> the second time and then suddenly it started using lots of water and >> is doing it again. Not to mention the AGS module not working with the >> firmware. A New module still has same problem. All wiring tested. I >> have seen XW's (not my install) making loud noises and seeming to have >> issues but I wasn't going to touch them Told them to get the original >> installing company to check it out. >> >> I'm about to rip my problem child off the wall and put in a Radian. >> I've installed dozens with only 2 needing any attention with power >> supply board and a power module, all quick fixes. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Oct 16 20:02:26 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 00:02:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update: Though this thread shifted to another wrenches challenge, I wanted to give an update on my original post and issue with gen failing to charge. Though it’s taken 4 weeks to get a reply, I did get contacted by three people today from Schneider. They are sending me a warranty XWPro. They also want me to verify a few things onsite, and if that doesn’t resolve, then I swap out the inverter. So that gives me reasonable assurance that I should be able to resolve the issue in one trip (20 hr drive round trip). Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: October-13-23 8:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro failures I have a buddy that has had two different stacked pairs with issues. It took months of back and forth on the one which they did replace them however one of the inverters sent from Schneider was a euro 230/50hz. Taking another trip and more delay. And same guy, another project with monitoring etc they refused to do anything and the client had the money to just replace them with another brand, and it’s been working fine ever since. Not a good situation Jay On Oct 13, 2023, at 8:56 AM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches > wrote:  I had a 7 year-old one die 1.5 months ago. F41 APS Under Voltage. No ugly sounds. Just no power. I don't have many out there but this is the first. Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 345 6762 On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 4:47 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: Funny you should say that. One that I just installed is acting weird and sounds horrible. Waited an hour on the phone for tech support to no avail. Will be a really long drive back to sort things out. Never had an XW with issues before. On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 9:29 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello Wrenches, Curious if anyone else is dealing with failed Schnieder XW PRO6848’s this year? In recent months I’ve had 2 DOA (one producing 180/360VAC; one charger had this nasty building THD and ugly noise until it tripped out), and 2 fail after few weeks in service. One charger just failed, and another have yet to take the long drive to figure out but it’s gone dark. I’ve sold, serviced, and installed 100’s of XW’s starting with Beta 001 and can’t think of any that just failed like of recent. Unplanned return service calls are costly as we all know. Tech support has been wildly inconsistent and presently unresponsive. Thanks, Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Oct 16 22:54:58 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 02:54:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, I've had good luck with DeWalt's carbide 4 blade bits like this one - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004RHF2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 There are other brands that are probably just as good, but I'd look for carbide and I'd look for the 4 cutter design. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584 ________________________________ From: Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2023 4:10 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kienan Maxfield Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking On that subject, what bits are people using to drill holes through block/concrete (for 1" - 2" conduit)? We have been using some dry diamond coring bits we buy online, but they don't seem to last. We have had them break off at the weld. Wet coring seems overkill for the relatively few holes we need to make. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:49 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches > wrote: I own the Dewalt 2 inch 60V rotary hammer you linked and it is totally awesome. You’ll be blown away by it. It’s totally worth it. You might want to make sure to just use the huge 12ah batteries that it comes with… might be a lot of power demand fire smaller 60V batteries… but I regularly use mine with the smaller batteries and I’ve never had a problem. I mostly use it for drilling 2 inch holes in 8” concrete walls for bringing conduit into basements and crawl spaces. It goes through amazingly easily. Everyone who has tried mine has been totally blown away… probably about 8 professionals and contractors. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC kienan at dist.solar (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:33 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hi all, I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount option that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about it: 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact energy as each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. Cordless Kit - https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit Corded Kit - https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very long extension cords. Thanks! -Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 17 06:17:15 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2023 06:17:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These work well for smaller conduit but when you get into 1-1/4" and greater trade sizes, especially when you need to get a fitting into the wall, I think you need to go to core bits. I don't think they make spiral bits that big with SDS shanks, but I could be mistaken. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 10:55 PM Kienan Maxfield wrote: > Jason, > > I've had good luck with DeWalt's carbide 4 blade bits like this one - > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004RHF2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 > > There are other brands that are probably just as good, but I'd look for > carbide and I'd look for the 4 cutter design. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution > kienan at dist.solar > (801) 631-5584 > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Thursday, October 12, 2023 4:10 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Kienan Maxfield > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking > > On that subject, what bits are people using to drill holes through > block/concrete (for 1" - 2" conduit)? We have been using some dry diamond > coring bits we buy online, but they don't seem to last. We have had them > break off at the weld. Wet coring seems overkill for the relatively few > holes we need to make. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 10:49 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > I own the Dewalt 2 inch 60V rotary hammer you linked and it is totally > awesome. You’ll be blown away by it. It’s totally worth it. > > You might want to make sure to just use the huge 12ah batteries that it > comes with… might be a lot of power demand fire smaller 60V batteries… but > I regularly use mine with the smaller batteries and I’ve never had a > problem. > > I mostly use it for drilling 2 inch holes in 8” concrete walls for > bringing conduit into basements and crawl spaces. It goes through amazingly > easily. Everyone who has tried mine has been totally blown away… probably > about 8 professionals and contractors. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC* > > *kienan at dist.solar* > > *(801) 631-5584(Cell)* > > *www.distribution.solar* > > On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:33 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi all, > > I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount option > that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things about it: > > 1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it? > > 2. What drill do you use for the drive rod? > It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - > https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21 > I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. DeWalt > makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the same impact > energy as each other, although both are less than the Milwaukee Drill. > Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt ones have 19.4 Joules, > which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy. > Cordless Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit > Corded Kit - > https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer > > The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of DeWalt > equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or some very > long extension cords. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 20 07:20:09 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 05:20:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacement inverters for legacy SunPower mods Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Does anyone have suggestions for replacement inverters for the older SunPower modules that require positive grounding? Can anyone quantify what the efficiency drop may look like in a transformerless inverter topology paired with these modules? Is it the negative ground we want to avoid or do these require positive ground to avoid the PID? I appreciate any input, suggestions that you may have. Cheers! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Oct 20 15:55:14 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 13:55:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods Message-ID: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Hey ally 'all, Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film mostly on the edges. What does everyone do for cleaning? My array is 16'+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Oct 20 16:19:32 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:19:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Dana, See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all modules. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hey ally ‘all, > > > > Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live > on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film > mostly on the edges. > > > > What does everyone do for cleaning? > > > > My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going > to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. > > > > Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: REC Module Cleaning Guidelines.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 561030 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Oct 20 16:47:03 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 16:47:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them where it rains! I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. Jason On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Dana, > > See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all > modules. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hey ally ‘all, >> >> >> >> Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live >> on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film >> mostly on the edges. >> >> >> >> What does everyone do for cleaning? >> >> >> >> My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was >> going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension >> pole. >> >> >> >> Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Fri Oct 20 18:11:26 2023 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 15:11:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Jason, This is the way thermal shock was explained to me. Thermal shock creates micro fractures in the glass. PV modules have tough tempered glass so one thermal shock event, or a few dozen events, is unlikely to cause a module to fracture; but eventually the glass gets to the last straw when the micro fractures connect to each other and the whole pane breaks up. You can't do much about sun showers but you can certainly avoid spraying the hose on hot glass. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/20/2023 1:47 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts > downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain > is way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose > water from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not > put them where it rains! > > I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it > takes a heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done > numerous tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit > to cleaning solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying > someone to do it. Other climates may have different results. My > suggestion would be to test first. Module level power electronics can > provide incontrovertible proof. > > Jason > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Dana, > > See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would > apply to all modules. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hey ally ‘all, > > Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my > modules & live on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with > the dust but there is a film mostly on the edges. > > What does everyone do for cleaning? > > My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer > & was going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a > painters extension pole. > > Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003      E – dana at solarwork.com > > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com > www.solarwork.com > > /_“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”_/ > > _______________________________________________ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Oct 20 18:30:51 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 15:30:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I now live in a more rural part of California and the dust buildup and bird droppings on my modules cuts energy production down by about 5% during the dry months. I imagine that professional cleaning services would still cost more than the recouped energy production, especially since the dirt builds back up in just a couple of weeks. Anyway, I've had good luck spraying down my array with water and then using a long squeegee similar to but larger than the type they have at gas stations. The sponge side is helpful to scrub the buildup off and the squeegee side helps avoid water spots. Typically no cleanser is necessary, although a mild car wash mix can help if there is sooty or oily buildup. It is satisfying to see clean panels, even if it isn't recommended for most homeowners :) August On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:13 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason, > > This is the way thermal shock was explained to me. Thermal shock creates > micro fractures in the glass. PV modules have tough tempered glass so one > thermal shock event, or a few dozen events, is unlikely to cause a module > to fracture; but eventually the glass gets to the last straw when the micro > fractures connect to each other and the whole pane breaks up. You can't do > much about sun showers but you can certainly avoid spraying the hose on hot > glass. > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > > On 10/20/2023 1:47 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts > downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is > way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water > from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them > where it rains! > > I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a > heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous > tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning > solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. > Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test > first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. > > Jason > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Dana, >> >> See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to >> all modules. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hey ally ‘all, >>> >>> >>> >>> Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live >>> on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film >>> mostly on the edges. >>> >>> >>> >>> What does everyone do for cleaning? >>> >>> >>> >>> My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was >>> going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension >>> pole. >>> >>> >>> >>> Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>> >>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>> >>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>> >>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 20 19:07:21 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 17:07:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 21 01:26:23 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 22:26:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island remote alerts Message-ID: Friends: How can one read error and/or warning code either via Sunny Portal or port forwarding a Webbbox? I can see charts galore on the Portal but I can’t find error or warning logs. Also, I get alerts via email but they are vague, as in “3xx” or “7xx”. Apologies if this is a dumb question. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Oct 21 09:07:40 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 09:07:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The volume of water in a Florida downpour can come on virtually instantly and would be many many times more volume of water than a residential hose. The rate of temperature change in a downpour will be many multiples of what a hose could do. This happens almost daily in summer here. A few hose cleanings a year would pale in comparison to what solar panels endure naturally due to weather. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 7:10 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I tell my clients to wash your panels like you’d wash your car. Similar > soaps if needed to remove pollen or harder to remove things and softer > bristle brushes help. > > Doing it during the heat of the day means a larger chance of mineral > deposits vs cooler times depending on your water. > > Myself I don’t think I’ve cleaned any of my panels in many years. > > Of course you might live in a place that it’s needed because of a larger > drop off in performance. > > As to the shock part I agree it’s a thing. With rain it never starts as > much volume you can do with a hose. Even heavy showers build up which > allows the panel to cool over a longer period of time vs blasting it with a > hose. > > My 2 cents. > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 20, 2023, at 4:32 PM, August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I now live in a more rural part of California and the dust buildup and > bird droppings on my modules cuts energy production down by about 5% during > the dry months. I imagine that professional cleaning services would still > cost more than the recouped energy production, especially since the dirt > builds back up in just a couple of weeks. > > Anyway, I've had good luck spraying down my array with water and then > using a long squeegee similar to but larger than the type they have at gas > stations. The sponge side is helpful to scrub the buildup off and the > squeegee side helps avoid water spots. Typically no cleanser is necessary, > although a mild car wash mix can help if there is sooty or oily buildup. > > It is satisfying to see clean panels, even if it isn't recommended > for most homeowners :) > > August > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:13 PM Kent via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> This is the way thermal shock was explained to me. Thermal shock creates >> micro fractures in the glass. PV modules have tough tempered glass so one >> thermal shock event, or a few dozen events, is unlikely to cause a module >> to fracture; but eventually the glass gets to the last straw when the micro >> fractures connect to each other and the whole pane breaks up. You can't do >> much about sun showers but you can certainly avoid spraying the hose on hot >> glass. >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> >> On 10/20/2023 1:47 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts >> downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is >> way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water >> from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them >> where it rains! >> >> I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a >> heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous >> tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning >> solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. >> Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test >> first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Dana, >>> >>> See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to >>> all modules. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey ally ‘all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & >>>> live on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a >>>> film mostly on the edges. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What does everyone do for cleaning? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was >>>> going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension >>>> pole. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>>> >>>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>>> >>>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>>> >>>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 09:21:17 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 07:21:17 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island remote alerts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, Unfortunately, that's as much detail as you get via Webbox. It seems silly not to pass the exact code to me... On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 11:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > How can one read error and/or warning code either via Sunny Portal or port > forwarding a Webbbox? > > I can see charts galore on the Portal but I can’t find error or warning > logs. > > Also, I get alerts via email but they are vague, as in “3xx” or “7xx”. > > Apologies if this is a dumb question. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 21 19:46:23 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 16:46:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple Message-ID: Friends: I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off grid. When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 pretty quickly and the system shuts off. I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for now and we can rely on generator. Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated. SMA can be less than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 19:51:15 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 17:51:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Oct 21 19:57:06 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 17:57:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What is the array size vs the battery size?  Sounds like a big array on a small battery for the voltage to go that high that fast. Ray Remote Solar On 10/21/2023 5:46 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Friends: > > I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off > grid. When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 > pretty quickly and the system shuts off. > > I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but > apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for > now and we can rely on generator. > > Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated.  SMA can be > less than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries. > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 21 21:01:03 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2023 18:01:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 12 kw PV nominal. Low tilt angle and old panels so reality is far less. 5 e-vault 18.5 kWh batteries 4 SI 6048 2 SB 6000 US System operational for some years with flooded batteries. Just installed the e-vaults. I reset the system to factory defaults. I am not sure how to verify the system will properly offset frequency if batteries are full. Having just written this I realize there is a discrepancy between the SOC the SIs report (46%) and the SOC the e-vaults report (98%). It could be the SIs want to push a lot of charge to the e-vaults but they won’t accept the charge because they are charged. I installed 3 of the vaults temporarily a week ago. At first there was a large discrepancy between SOC from batteries to SIs. Eventually that delta reduced to 4%. Maybe this problem will resolve itself? What settings on the SI are necessary to enable frequency shifting? Thanks everyone for the response. There is nothing worse than being on-site and not knowing how to get a system to operate. I shut off the PV and will let the generator fill in the deficit until Monday. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:57 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > What is the array size vs the battery size? Sounds like a big array on a > small battery for the voltage to go that high that fast. > > Ray > Remote Solar > On 10/21/2023 5:46 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Friends: > > I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off > grid. When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 pretty > quickly and the system shuts off. > > I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but > apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for now > and we can rely on generator. > > Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated. SMA can be > less than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries. > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 07:29:48 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 07:29:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, You will want to make sure that the eVaults are all running that same firmware and that terminator switches and battery ID #s are set correctly. High SOC and large incoming current could definitely be the reason why voltage skyrocketed up. Best, Chris On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 9:39 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > 12 kw PV nominal. Low tilt angle and old panels so reality is far less. > 5 e-vault 18.5 kWh batteries > 4 SI 6048 > 2 SB 6000 US > > System operational for some years with flooded batteries. Just installed > the e-vaults. I reset the system to factory defaults. I am not sure how to > verify the system will properly offset frequency if batteries are full. > > Having just written this I realize there is a discrepancy between the SOC > the SIs report (46%) and the SOC the e-vaults report (98%). It could be the > SIs want to push a lot of charge to the e-vaults but they won’t accept the > charge because they are charged. > > I installed 3 of the vaults temporarily a week ago. At first there was a > large discrepancy between SOC from batteries to SIs. Eventually that delta > reduced to 4%. Maybe this problem will resolve itself? > > What settings on the SI are necessary to enable frequency shifting? > > Thanks everyone for the response. There is nothing worse than being > on-site and not knowing how to get a system to operate. I shut off the PV > and will let the generator fill in the deficit until Monday. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:57 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> What is the array size vs the battery size? Sounds like a big array on a >> small battery for the voltage to go that high that fast. >> >> Ray >> Remote Solar >> On 10/21/2023 5:46 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off >> grid. When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 pretty >> quickly and the system shuts off. >> >> I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but >> apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for now >> and we can rely on generator. >> >> Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated. SMA can be >> less than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 08:13:35 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2023 06:13:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need a hand with Sunny Island/Sunny boy AC couple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William, I think you will find that the state of charge discrepancy will be a continual problem to contend with in voltage mode. The state of charge algorithm that the SI uses (and bases all decisions) is complex and not very Lithium compatible when at the ends of the state of charge spectrum (full, empty). The Sunny Island will continually interpret the SOC much too high when the eVaults are low because there isn't much voltage drop across most of the battery capacity. Do you have RS485 communication going to the Sunnyboys? You will also need to set your Sunnyboys off-grid. I would probably try to get a battery voltage based relay installed that opens the AC connection to the sunnyboys at 56V or so. I would also call Fortress to see how well the SunnyIsland to BMS communications works. Even if SMA won't support it, Fortress may have some honest field experience by now and be able to advise. If the communication stops flowing, the SunnyIsland will register an external BMS fault and shut off which seems lower risk than having the bus voltage spike to 69V Let us know what you learn on this one. On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 5:30 AM Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi William, > > You will want to make sure that the eVaults are all running that same > firmware and that terminator switches and battery ID #s are set correctly. > High SOC and large incoming current could definitely be the reason why > voltage skyrocketed up. > > Best, > > Chris > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 9:39 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> 12 kw PV nominal. Low tilt angle and old panels so reality is far less. >> 5 e-vault 18.5 kWh batteries >> 4 SI 6048 >> 2 SB 6000 US >> >> System operational for some years with flooded batteries. Just installed >> the e-vaults. I reset the system to factory defaults. I am not sure how to >> verify the system will properly offset frequency if batteries are full. >> >> Having just written this I realize there is a discrepancy between the SOC >> the SIs report (46%) and the SOC the e-vaults report (98%). It could be the >> SIs want to push a lot of charge to the e-vaults but they won’t accept the >> charge because they are charged. >> >> I installed 3 of the vaults temporarily a week ago. At first there was a >> large discrepancy between SOC from batteries to SIs. Eventually that delta >> reduced to 4%. Maybe this problem will resolve itself? >> >> What settings on the SI are necessary to enable frequency shifting? >> >> Thanks everyone for the response. There is nothing worse than being >> on-site and not knowing how to get a system to operate. I shut off the PV >> and will let the generator fill in the deficit until Monday. >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 21, 2023 at 4:57 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> What is the array size vs the battery size? Sounds like a big array on >>> a small battery for the voltage to go that high that fast. >>> >>> Ray >>> Remote Solar >>> On 10/21/2023 5:46 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Friends: >>> >>> I’m kinda stuck on a project setting up a SI/SB AC coupled system off >>> grid. When the SB inverters ramp up the battery voltage jumps to 69 pretty >>> quickly and the system shuts off. >>> >>> I checked the mini-grid frequency and it does ramp up to about 62+ but >>> apparently not soon enough to curtail charging. I shut off the SBs for now >>> and we can rely on generator. >>> >>> Any advice via email or a phone call would be appreciated. SMA can be >>> less than helpful, especially for systems with lithium batteries. >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> William Miller >>> Miller Solar.com >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Mon Oct 23 09:44:40 2023 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:44:40 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I worked with a guy who had done installs in Arizona. He had an off-grid customer spray down their array with cold well water in the middle of the day, which shattered the module glass. I’m sure it was an isolated incident, but it happened. Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 4:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them where it rains! I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. Jason On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Dana, See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all modules. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hey ally ‘all, Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film mostly on the edges. What does everyone do for cleaning? My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Oct 23 10:37:28 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 07:37:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: The encapsulant between the glass and the aluminum might be degraded by a surfactant. It’s probably a low risk if you use a gentle soap, but I heard that somewhere about 15 years ago so I thought I’d mention it. I also heard that pressure washers are too strong and can ruin the encapsulant seal. On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 6:44 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I worked with a guy who had done installs in Arizona. He had an off-grid > customer spray down their array with cold well water in the middle of the > day, which shattered the module glass. > > > > I’m sure it was an isolated incident, but it happened. > > > > Thanks, > > Will > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, October 20, 2023 4:47 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods > > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts > downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is > way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water > from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them > where it rains! > > > > I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a > heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous > tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning > solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. > Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test > first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Dana, > > > > See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all > modules. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hey ally ‘all, > > > > Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live > on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film > mostly on the edges. > > > > What does everyone do for cleaning? > > > > My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going > to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. > > > > Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com > > www.solarwork.com > > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > [image: Logo] > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* > > *p: *he | him | his > * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > *w:* www.sungineersolar.com > > *c:* (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If > you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying > to the sender and delete this message. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Oct 23 11:08:52 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 09:08:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017F6746-8AEB-4B65-8DA8-B6F769742121@solarwork.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 23 11:28:58 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 08:28:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Definitely heard stories and have seen a few insurance claims for cracked glass. I have had clients send me pictures of "solar" guys walking on the panels on their roof. I guess it is OK to do this if you change your business name every 5 years😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [11]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [12] [11] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-23 6:44 am, White, Will via RE-wrenches wrote: > I worked with a guy who had done installs in Arizona. He had an > off-grid customer spray down their array with cold well water in the > middle of the day, which shattered the module glass. > > I'm sure it was an isolated incident, but it happened. > > Thanks, > > Will > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 4:47 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and > know the content is safe. > > I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts > downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain > is way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose > water from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put > them where it rains! > > I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes > a heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done > numerous tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit > to cleaning solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying > someone to do it. Other climates may have different results. My > suggestion would be to test first. Module level power electronics can > provide incontrovertible proof. > > Jason > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hi Dana, > > See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to > all modules. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hey ally 'all, > > Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & > live on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there > is a film mostly on the edges. > > What does everyone do for cleaning? > > My array is 16'+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was > going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters > extension pole. > > Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com [1] www.solarwork.com [2] > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [3] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [4] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [5] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] > > -- > > [9] > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com [10] > c: (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [3] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > [4] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [5] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [7] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] ------------------------- Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/greatsolarworks.com__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3PsYzpCS$ [2] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.solarwork.com/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3PW0Drer$ [3] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3CxvfLvy$ [4] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3Evi2PJX$ [5] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3LloGTtE$ [6] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3Gzugvmn$ [7] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3F0anskJ$ [8] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.members.re-wrenches.org__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3KrUjHuR$ [9] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.sungineersolar.com/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3OgqYCzV$ [10] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.sungineersolar.com/__;!!KPww_GFiJXw!Y_kuM7c-s1IyVKAFmwI_3s4QdWIAuH3dA6C9UrdDyGVPbrAubqjhW4VUC0zvVmJ3YqDCwomVHcoSXnJViwOe2rxR3JXku6U_$ [11] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [12] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Mon Oct 23 11:41:28 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:41:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <01c801da05c7$63db05e0$2b9111a0$@mindspring.com> Dave So funny, thanks for the smile. Have had installers tell me it is ok to walk on panels and I thought they were asking for trouble. We recommend a soft brush ( home depot sells one that goes on an extendable pole ) dawn detergent and a hose. Here in the south the pollen wreaks havoc on panels, just bakes on and coats the glass. Just simple cleaning and production #’s jump right back up. Peter Giroux ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 23, 2023 11:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods Definitely heard stories and have seen a few insurance claims for cracked glass. I have had clients send me pictures of "solar" guys walking on the panels on their roof. I guess it is OK to do this if you change your business name every 5 years😉 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-23 6:44 am, White, Will via RE-wrenches wrote: I worked with a guy who had done installs in Arizona. He had an off-grid customer spray down their array with cold well water in the middle of the day, which shattered the module glass. I'm sure it was an isolated incident, but it happened. Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 4:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them where it rains! I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. Jason On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Dana, See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all modules. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hey ally 'all, Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film mostly on the edges. What does everyone do for cleaning? My array is 16'+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Oct 23 12:02:12 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 12:02:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: A customer of mine has both hot and cold water plumbed to his outdoor hose spigots, similar to an indoor sink, so he can clean anything outside with a warm to hot mix if necessary. Obviously better cleaning than cold alone. On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 9:45 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I worked with a guy who had done installs in Arizona. He had an off-grid > customer spray down their array with cold well water in the middle of the > day, which shattered the module glass. > > > > I’m sure it was an isolated incident, but it happened. > > > > Thanks, > > Will > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, October 20, 2023 4:47 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods > > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts > downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is > way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water > from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them > where it rains! > > > > I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a > heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous > tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning > solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. > Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test > first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Dana, > > > > See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all > modules. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hey ally ‘all, > > > > Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live > on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film > mostly on the edges. > > > > What does everyone do for cleaning? > > > > My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going > to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. > > > > Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com > > www.solarwork.com > > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > [image: Logo] > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* > > *p: *he | him | his > * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > *w:* www.sungineersolar.com > > *c:* (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If > you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying > to the sender and delete this message. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Mon Oct 23 12:13:31 2023 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 09:13:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <077a01da05cb$dde6c780$99b45680$@pv-cables.com> When our area experienced a lot of ash from nearby forest fires, I ended up purchasing a telescopic brush that big rig truckers use to wash their trucks and had great success. If I recall it was around $80 and it extended 20ft and came with a few different attachments. Bryan @ PV-Cables From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 23, 2023 9:02 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Kirk Herander Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods A customer of mine has both hot and cold water plumbed to his outdoor hose spigots, similar to an indoor sink, so he can clean anything outside with a warm to hot mix if necessary. Obviously better cleaning than cold alone. On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 9:45 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches wrote: I worked with a guy who had done installs in Arizona. He had an off-grid customer spray down their array with cold well water in the middle of the day, which shattered the module glass. I’m sure it was an isolated incident, but it happened. Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 4:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them where it rains! I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. Jason On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Dana, See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all modules. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: Hey ally ‘all, Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film mostly on the edges. What does everyone do for cleaning? My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Image removed by sender. Logo Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _____ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!! dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Mon Oct 23 13:05:59 2023 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:05:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts or smarts? Message-ID: Me again, Mechanix~ 'Tis the season...for generator problems. Here's mine: Kohler model # 8.5RES air cooled propane Serial number 2159521 Spec number GM29253-GA6 This machine has delivered many off-grid running hours; I suspect a lightning whack took it down. The main DC battery breaker inexplicably tripped the same day; inverter etc. are all OK. How many hours? "A Lot." I can't be more specific b/c the electronic box with the display is black. The 12v cranking battery seems to have adequate energy but the black box is truly "blacked out" & doesn't respond to the red Run button. Three glass fuses near the ADC2100 control box all have continuity. [image: ADC2100 control.PNG] The physical space in the power shed accommodates this machine housing but I doubt if any new machine would fit as well. That "ADC2100" control box in my photo shows several different p/n's on eBay & I haven't done much more sleuthing. I have only a fuzzy picture of ours, but squinting at the p/n, ours might be GM28707. Are they all interchangeable? The ideal case would be if one of the Wrenches has a "known good" control box even if it's used or dusty. Clients might be sad if I persuade them to spend $1k or more for an eBay part then we put it all together only to find the machine still won't run. Contact me off-list if you have a part or parts to sell, or a "value added" parts vendor to suggest. We're in southern Colorado. If something else may have also been damaged, can I get suggestions as to the likely culprits? Finally, how far should we go if the clients really want a new lease on life for this machine? Are there shops that could do an engine overhaul? Assuming that the generator windings are OK, are there bearing replacements or other TLC items to address if we haul it to a shop? I'm aware that the 2023 stationary propane machines may not have the "slam it out" longevity that the clients have enjoyed with this one. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ADC2100 control.PNG Type: image/png Size: 337291 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark at hurshtown.com Mon Oct 23 13:22:05 2023 From: mark at hurshtown.com (Mark Downing) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:22:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Indeed, spraying cold water on hot modules between the hours of 10A-2P (or maybe 9A and 3P) is simply foolish. Now the argument of rain being more dangerous than a cold hose is pretty weak. If it's raining, the modules are simply not going to be hot! It would only be an issue if conditions went from full sun to raining streetcars and busses within the time period of a couple of minutes. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of White, Will via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 23, 2023 9:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: White, Will Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods I worked with a guy who had done installs in Arizona. He had an off-grid customer spray down their array with cold well water in the middle of the day, which shattered the module glass. I’m sure it was an isolated incident, but it happened. Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 4:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them where it rains! I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. Jason On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hi Dana, See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all modules. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hey ally ‘all, Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film mostly on the edges. What does everyone do for cleaning? My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 23 13:34:41 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 13:34:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods In-Reply-To: References: <056501da038f$585568d0$09003a70$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Mark, what you are describing is almost a daily occurrence in Florida in the summer. It can start raining buckets in full sun. And the rainwater is much colder than what comes out of a hose here. There does not seem to be any real data out there - only conjecture and anecdotes. I understand why manufacturers might put that into a manual out of an abundance of caution, but I have never seen any real testing. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 1:22 PM Mark Downing via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Indeed, spraying cold water on hot modules between the hours of 10A-2P (or > maybe 9A and 3P) is simply foolish. > Now the argument of rain being more dangerous than a cold hose is pretty > weak. > If it's raining, the modules are simply not going to be hot! > It would only be an issue if conditions went from full sun to raining > streetcars and busses within the time period of a couple of minutes. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of White, Will via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2023 9:44 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* White, Will > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods > > > I worked with a guy who had done installs in Arizona. He had an off-grid > customer spray down their array with cold well water in the middle of the > day, which shattered the module glass. > > > > I’m sure it was an isolated incident, but it happened. > > > > Thanks, > > Will > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, October 20, 2023 4:47 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning PV mods > > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > I don't understand the thermal shock nonsense. It routinely starts > downpouring here when it's blazing hot out (sun showers) and the rain is > way cooler than ground water in summer. It makes no sense. If hose water > from the ground is going to hurt solar panels, you better not put them > where it rains! > > > > I replied privately to Dana, but for the benefit of the group, it takes a > heavy soiling to make any appreciable difference. I have done numerous > tests at times of high pollen and found little to no benefit to cleaning > solar panels. Certainly it would not be worth paying someone to do it. > Other climates may have different results. My suggestion would be to test > first. Module level power electronics can provide incontrovertible proof. > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 4:21 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hi Dana, > > > > See attached from REC. I would imagine these guidelines would apply to all > modules. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 3:56 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hey ally ‘all, > > > > Ok bad solar installer! 7 years & I have never cleaned my modules & live > on a dirt road. Yeah rain does a good job with the dust but there is a film > mostly on the edges. > > > > What does everyone do for cleaning? > > > > My array is 16’+ tall on a hill side. I have a pressure washer & was going > to pick up a large sponge type mop & mount it on a painters extension pole. > > > > Good Biodegradable cleaning solutions? > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com > > www.solarwork.com > > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > -- > > [image: Logo] > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* > > *p: *he | him | his > * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > *w:* www.sungineersolar.com > > *c:* (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > *Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. > If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by > replying to the sender and delete this message.* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 23 14:58:44 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:58:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts or smarts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the dead of winter a client paid over 2K$ for the PCB. He now has surge protection on the lines from gen out to the XW. I did not say to him I told you so, but I am saying here. Pop a midnite spd on gensets that stay connected all year. If it was nearby lightning, he was lucky it did not jump the transfer relay into the inverter electronics! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-23 10:05 am, Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches wrote: > Me again, Mechanix~ 'Tis the season...for generator problems. Here's > mine: > > Kohler model # 8.5RES air cooled propane > Serial number 2159521 > Spec number GM29253-GA6 > > This machine has delivered many off-grid running hours; I suspect a > lightning whack took it down. The main DC battery breaker inexplicably > tripped the same day; inverter etc. are all OK. > > How many hours? "A Lot." I can't be more specific b/c the electronic > box with the display is black. The 12v cranking battery seems to have > adequate energy but the black box is truly "blacked out" & doesn't > respond to the red Run button. Three glass fuses near the ADC2100 > control box all have continuity. > > The physical space in the power shed accommodates this machine housing > but I doubt if any new machine would fit as well. > That "ADC2100" control box in my photo shows several different p/n's on > eBay & I haven't done much more sleuthing. I have only a fuzzy > picture of ours, but squinting at the p/n, ours might be GM28707. Are > they all interchangeable? > > The ideal case would be if one of the Wrenches has a "known good" > control box even if it's used or dusty. Clients might be sad > if I persuade them to spend $1k or more for an eBay part then we put it > all together only to find the machine still won't run. > Contact me off-list if you have a part or parts to sell, or a "value > added" parts vendor to suggest. We're in southern Colorado. > > If something else may have also been damaged, can I get suggestions as > to the likely culprits? Finally, how far should we go if the clients > really want a new lease on life for this machine? Are there shops that > could do an engine overhaul? Assuming that the generator > windings are OK, are there bearing replacements or other TLC items to > address if we haul it to a shop? > > I'm aware that the 2023 stationary propane machines may not have the > "slam it out" longevity that the clients have enjoyed with this one. > Thanks in advance for any suggestions. The Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > www.abrahamsolar.com [1] > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > ᐧ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abrahamsolar.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Oct 23 18:47:58 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 16:47:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts or smarts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04f301da0602$f9169940$eb43cbc0$@solarwork.com> https://www.partsfortechs.com/ These guys sold me an automatic volt regulator for my 20KW Onan for ¼ of the price that Onan wanted SUPER helpful, not sure if they can help you but reasonable, knowledgeable, & friendly, & They saved my bucket. ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts or smarts? Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:05:59 -0600 Size: 467588 URL: From vince at solarenergydesign.com Mon Oct 23 20:27:33 2023 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:27:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support Message-ID: Hello Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't actually get to tech support. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Mon Oct 23 20:33:16 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 17:33:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vince, You'll want to register with them and get the "special number". You'll also get the grid code password. I tried reaching them two weeks ago and last week and couldn't get through. Kinda bummed as Schneider has been my go to for several years. On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:29 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello > Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't > worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing > another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the > middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago > there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech > support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't > actually get to tech support. > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, > > Vince McClellan > > Energy Design > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 23 21:38:26 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:38:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vince: My notes indicate: (833) 391-8640. Wait for menu options and press 8. It’s been a while since I called. I am not impressed by the product line or tech support. Good luck. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2023 5:28 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Vince McClellan *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support Hello Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't actually get to tech support. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vince at solarenergydesign.com Mon Oct 23 23:16:24 2023 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 20:16:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Michael I appreciate the info. I'll give that a try tomorrow. Even though I haven't used Schneider equipment much in the last few years, I still have a bunch of systems out there with their products. Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Vince, > You'll want to register with them and get the "special number". You'll > also get the grid code password. I tried reaching them two weeks ago and > last week and couldn't get through. Kinda bummed as Schneider has been my > go to for several years. > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:29 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello >> Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't >> worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing >> another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the >> middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago >> there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech >> support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't >> actually get to tech support. >> >> Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, >> >> Vince McClellan >> >> Energy Design >> >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> >> p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 >> >> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, >> please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment >> of this email is strictly prohibited. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 07:04:36 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 05:04:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts or smarts? In-Reply-To: <04f301da0602$f9169940$eb43cbc0$@solarwork.com> References: <04f301da0602$f9169940$eb43cbc0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hello Mick, Here is what I'd do: Check compression on each cylinder, look for psi of about 90(ish). Also verify they are about the same (within a couple of percent). If its way out of this range, stop here. If they think they've gotten at least 5000 run hours, I'd stop here. These air cooled machines can last longer if well taken care of, but that is the design life. I have a few Kohler air-cooled with >5000 run hours so it can happen. I'm a fan of checking the integrity of the alternator/rotor with an excitation test but you may be limited in what is possible with a cooked controller. You can ask me direct for more details on this. Probably the controller is cooked and that's it, but I have had lightning to more things to generators. I would try the parts for techs but here in Colorado you can also call Power systems West in Aurora. They will need make, model, serial number and they can price out the part for you. This will at least get you a best case price for replacing the controller. You can't rely on interchangeability of these controllers. There are often changes that need harness modifications. Good luck On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 4:48 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > https://www.partsfortechs.com/ > > > > These guys sold me an automatic volt regulator for my 20KW Onan for ¼ of > the price that Onan wanted SUPER helpful, not sure if they can help you but > reasonable, knowledgeable, & friendly, & They saved my bucket. > > > > ___________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Oct 24 07:48:57 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 05:48:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] On Gens : 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts or smarts? In-Reply-To: References: <04f301da0602$f9169940$eb43cbc0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <056201da0670$1302def0$39089cd0$@solarwork.com> REF Hours on Generators: Air cooled 3,600 RPM = 80 Mph 5000 hours x 80mph = 400,000 miles Water cooled at 1,800RPM = 40 MPH 5000 hours x 40mph = 200,000 miles Both are a lot of hours but 400K is till a whole lot of wear & tear. I got to thinking about all the other impacts & considerations: * Low elevation VS high elevation * Light loading vs heavy prolonged loading * Air flow & operating temps? * Warm up & Cool down cycle VS on & off. * Synthetic oil VS dinosaur oil? Synthetic = 4x the life & still better than dino oil when it was new. * Are they exceeding the oil intervals because they are always adding & adding oil due to consumption? * Rodent impact on wiring Generators do not have tires but still carry the same maintenance responsibilities as a vehicle, & typically do not get cared for like a vehicle that you climb into & trust your life with. My 0.02 experience is that as long as they are operating all is good & get cared for mostly when a crisis occurs. What I like to call "recycled ignorance." ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts or smarts? Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 05:04:36 -0600 Size: 14403 URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 24 10:29:49 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 07:29:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island AC-Coupled system integration with Fortress E-Vault Message-ID: <8e5399f770af30f76906a4a265a47f9d@mail.gmail.com> Friends: This situation is as yet unresolved. It is complicated enough I created a web page to describe the scenario so I did not have to explain it over and over. I submitted this to Fortress tech support. They said they had likely not tested the Fortress compatibility with SI in an AC-Coupled system. While Fortress technicians and/or engineers ponder the situation I am brainstorming solutions. One idea is to convert to a DC coupled system. DC Charge controllers will have intrinsically better voltage control. The charge controller most likely suitable is the Schneider 600 volt 100 amp unit. I would need two of them. It is compatible with the existing string wiring. In researching it many questions came up about that product’s suitability. There is an integration guide for a Schneider system and Fortress but this would be a mixed system of Schneider and SMA. Would I be able to apply closed loop communication to both systems? Could the charge controllers work in open loop? Has anyone tried anything like this? I will keep you apprised. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 10:39:29 2023 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 07:39:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island AC-Coupled system integration with Fortress E-Vault In-Reply-To: <8e5399f770af30f76906a4a265a47f9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e5399f770af30f76906a4a265a47f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 11:20:12 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 11:20:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island AC-Coupled system integration with Fortress E-Vault In-Reply-To: References: <8e5399f770af30f76906a4a265a47f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, That’s an interesting idea to have close loop comms with two separate manufacturers at the same time. In theory I think this could work, but unfortunately, I don’t think SMA and Schneider share the same protocol # for the eVault. I believe SMA uses protocol #2 and Schneider uses #5. Kindly, Chris On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 10:40 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I would tear all the sunny boys and sunny islands out and install two 15 > kW Sol-Arks, problem solved. DC coupled. I've done this several times now > for existing clients (mostly connected to the grid) but it is so much > cleaner and more compact and effective. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Oct 24, 2023, at 7:31 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > This situation is as yet unresolved. It is complicated enough I created a web > page > > to describe the scenario so I did not have to explain it over and over. I > submitted this to Fortress tech support. They said they had likely not > tested the Fortress compatibility with SI in an AC-Coupled system. > > > > While Fortress technicians and/or engineers ponder the situation I am > brainstorming solutions. One idea is to convert to a DC coupled system. > DC Charge controllers will have intrinsically better voltage control. The > charge controller most likely suitable is the Schneider 600 volt 100 amp > unit. I would need two of them. It is compatible with the existing string > wiring. In researching it many questions came up about that product’s > suitability. There is an integration guide for a Schneider system and > Fortress but this would be a mixed system of Schneider and SMA. Would I be > able to apply closed loop communication to both systems? Could the charge > controllers work in open loop? Has anyone tried anything like this? > > > > I will keep you apprised. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Oct 24 12:39:28 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:39:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island remote alerts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It’s a very poorly designed system. But it is possible to view the full error code on the webbox, but only while it is an active error. I don’t have a webbox online right now to advise exactly what parameter but it was near the bottom of the long list, and the description is not very precise. Sorry I can’t be more specific. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 10:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island remote alerts Friends: How can one read error and/or warning code either via Sunny Portal or port forwarding a Webbbox? I can see charts galore on the Portal but I can’t find error or warning logs. Also, I get alerts via email but they are vague, as in “3xx” or “7xx”. Apologies if this is a dumb question. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Tue Oct 24 12:46:11 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:46:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve not been able to get through to tech support via phone for some time now. Try emailing Rhodes rhodes.carter at se.com. Once he is engaged on an issue the support is quite good and is very knowledgeable about the product. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 23, 2023 5:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Vince McClellan Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support Hello Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't actually get to tech support. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Tue Oct 24 12:56:38 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 16:56:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island AC-Coupled system integration with Fortress E-Vault In-Reply-To: References: <8e5399f770af30f76906a4a265a47f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, The charge controllers could operate in open loop, while the SMA did close the loop. Open loop works really well for charge controllers. I question if the closed loop communication was really working correctly if the SI is reporting 50% SOC when the batteries are reporting 95%… The SI should be getting its % info from the batteries… My thoughts are that the inverter needs to start frequency shifting at a lower voltage. If the closed loop communication isn’t working correctly, you could try setting a lower absorb and float voltage… I’ve had bad luck using open loop Lithium with SMA… If you were to consider switching out the inverters, consider putting in Fortress Envy inverters. -Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC kienan at dist.solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar On Oct 24, 2023, at 9:20 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:  Hi William, That’s an interesting idea to have close loop comms with two separate manufacturers at the same time. In theory I think this could work, but unfortunately, I don’t think SMA and Schneider share the same protocol # for the eVault. I believe SMA uses protocol #2 and Schneider uses #5. Kindly, Chris On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 10:40 AM MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches > wrote: I would tear all the sunny boys and sunny islands out and install two 15 kW Sol-Arks, problem solved. DC coupled. I've done this several times now for existing clients (mostly connected to the grid) but it is so much cleaner and more compact and effective. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar On Oct 24, 2023, at 7:31 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Friends: This situation is as yet unresolved. It is complicated enough I created a web page to describe the scenario so I did not have to explain it over and over. I submitted this to Fortress tech support. They said they had likely not tested the Fortress compatibility with SI in an AC-Coupled system. While Fortress technicians and/or engineers ponder the situation I am brainstorming solutions. One idea is to convert to a DC coupled system. DC Charge controllers will have intrinsically better voltage control. The charge controller most likely suitable is the Schneider 600 volt 100 amp unit. I would need two of them. It is compatible with the existing string wiring. In researching it many questions came up about that product’s suitability. There is an integration guide for a Schneider system and Fortress but this would be a mixed system of Schneider and SMA. Would I be able to apply closed loop communication to both systems? Could the charge controllers work in open loop? Has anyone tried anything like this? I will keep you apprised. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 13:38:03 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 10:38:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] On Gens : 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts or smarts? In-Reply-To: <056201da0670$1302def0$39089cd0$@solarwork.com> References: <04f301da0602$f9169940$eb43cbc0$@solarwork.com> <056201da0670$1302def0$39089cd0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have always used 50 miles per hr as this works well, sure the 3600 rpm unit runs faster but 2000 hrs is 100000 miles and unless you have a prime mover that's about right. I see many with well over 10,000 hrs. Had one last week do 1000 hrs in a month. On Tue, Oct 24, 2023, 4:50 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > REF Hours on Generators: > > > > Air cooled 3,600 RPM = 80 Mph > > 5000 hours x 80mph = 400,000 miles > > > > Water cooled at 1,800RPM = 40 MPH > > 5000 hours x 40mph = 200,000 miles > > > > Both are a lot of hours but 400K is till a whole lot of wear & tear. > > > > I got to thinking about all the other impacts & considerations: > > > > - Low elevation VS high elevation > - Light loading vs heavy prolonged loading > - Air flow & operating temps? > - Warm up & Cool down cycle VS on & off. > - Synthetic oil VS dinosaur oil? Synthetic = 4x the life & still > better than dino oil when it was new… > - Are they exceeding the oil intervals because they are always adding > & adding oil due to consumption? > - Rodent impact on wiring > > > > Generators do not have tires but still carry the same maintenance > responsibilities as a vehicle, & typically do not get cared for like a > vehicle that you climb into & trust your life with. My 0.02 experience is > that as long as they are operating all is good & get cared for mostly when > a crisis occurs. What I like to call “recycled ignorance.” > > > > ___________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Mac Lewis > Bcc: > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 05:04:36 -0600 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2007 Kohler: Wrenches, can you help with parts > or smarts? > Hello Mick, > > Here is what I'd do: > > Check compression on each cylinder, look for psi of about 90(ish). Also > verify they are about the same (within a couple of percent). If its way > out of this range, stop here. > > If they think they've gotten at least 5000 run hours, I'd stop here. > These air cooled machines can last longer if well taken care of, but that > is the design life. I have a few Kohler air-cooled with >5000 run hours so > it can happen. > > I'm a fan of checking the integrity of the alternator/rotor with an > excitation test but you may be limited in what is possible with a cooked > controller. You can ask me direct for more details on this. Probably the > controller is cooked and that's it, but I have had lightning to more things > to generators. > > I would try the parts for techs but here in Colorado you can also call > Power systems West in Aurora. They will need make, model, serial number > and they can price out the part for you. This will at least get you a best > case price for replacing the controller. You can't rely on > interchangeability of these controllers. There are often changes that need > harness modifications. > > Good luck > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 4:48 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> https://www.partsfortechs.com/ >> >> >> >> These guys sold me an automatic volt regulator for my 20KW Onan for ¼ of >> the price that Onan wanted SUPER helpful, not sure if they can help you but >> reasonable, knowledgeable, & friendly, & They saved my bucket. >> >> >> >> ___________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 24 13:38:24 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 10:38:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e0f8d32b45cbbde8fd914acb47812b2@sti.net> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-23 8:16 pm, Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Michael > I appreciate the info. I'll give that a try tomorrow. Even though I > haven't used Schneider equipment much in the last few years, I still > have a bunch of systems out there with their products. > > Vince McClellan > > Energy Design > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, > please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or > attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Vince, > You'll want to register with them and get the "special number". You'll > also get the grid code password. I tried reaching them two weeks ago > and last week and couldn't get through. Kinda bummed as Schneider has > been my go to for several years. > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:29 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello > Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I > haven't worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on > repairing another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech > support in the middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember > several years ago there was a special number to press once you were in > the Schneider tech support answering system, but if you followed the > prompts you wouldn't actually get to tech support. > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, > > Vince McClellan > > Energy Design > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, > please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or > attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 9f6a6df4.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 130466 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 24 14:24:05 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 11:24:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support In-Reply-To: <9e0f8d32b45cbbde8fd914acb47812b2@sti.net> References: <9e0f8d32b45cbbde8fd914acb47812b2@sti.net> Message-ID: <225da8fcfb0657fd47f836fc96dfa246@sti.net> Some of you folks are using really old Phone info. The number changed almost 3 years ago I believe. 1 833 391 8640 5 am to 8 pm Pacific time Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-24 10:38 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2023-10-23 8:16 pm, Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Michael > I appreciate the info. I'll give that a try tomorrow. Even though I > haven't used Schneider equipment much in the last few years, I still > have a bunch of systems out there with their products. > > Vince McClellan > > Energy Design > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, > please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or > attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Vince, > You'll want to register with them and get the "special number". You'll > also get the grid code password. I tried reaching them two weeks ago > and last week and couldn't get through. Kinda bummed as Schneider has > been my go to for several years. > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:29 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Hello > Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I > haven't worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on > repairing another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech > support in the middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember > several years ago there was a special number to press once you were in > the Schneider tech support answering system, but if you followed the > prompts you wouldn't actually get to tech support. > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, > > Vince McClellan > > Energy Design > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, > please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or > attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 24 15:12:08 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 12:12:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support In-Reply-To: <225da8fcfb0657fd47f836fc96dfa246@sti.net> References: <9e0f8d32b45cbbde8fd914acb47812b2@sti.net> <225da8fcfb0657fd47f836fc96dfa246@sti.net> Message-ID: What is the magic extension number? William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 11:24 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Some of you folks are using really old Phone info. The number changed > almost 3 years ago I believe. > > 1 833 391 8640 5 am to 8 pm Pacific time > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-10-24 10:38 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-10-23 8:16 pm, Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Michael > I appreciate the info. I'll give that a try tomorrow. Even though I > haven't used Schneider equipment much in the last few years, I still have a > bunch of systems out there with their products. > > > Vince McClellan > > Energy Design > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:36 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Vince, > You'll want to register with them and get the "special number". You'll > also get the grid code password. I tried reaching them two weeks ago and > last week and couldn't get through. Kinda bummed as Schneider has been my > go to for several years. > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 5:29 PM Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Hello > Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't > worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing > another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the > middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago > there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech > support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't > actually get to tech support. > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, > > Vince McClellan > > Energy Design > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > > Morningstar Electric > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, CA 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > mjmorningstar at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Tue Oct 24 17:17:59 2023 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:17:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter Message-ID: Wrenches, We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here could tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in replacement for a system including the the old power distribution panel accessories. Thanks! Chad Waits President - Net Zero Solar 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 Cell: (520) 270-4873 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vince at solarenergydesign.com Tue Oct 24 17:25:10 2023 From: vince at solarenergydesign.com (Vince McClellan) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:25:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Kevin I'll try emailing him. All it takes is one good tech support person on a team to get somewhere on an issue. Take care, Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 9:46 AM Kevin Pegg wrote: > I’ve not been able to get through to tech support via phone for some time > now. Try emailing Rhodes rhodes.carter at se.com. Once he is engaged on an > issue the support is quite good and is very knowledgeable about the > product. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Vince McClellan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2023 5:28 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Vince McClellan > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Schneider Tech Support > > > > Hello > > Have any of you been in contact with tech support at Schneider? I haven't > worked with their equipment in several years. I'm working on repairing > another contractor's system, and when I tried to call tech support in the > middle of the day, no one answered the call. I remember several years ago > there was a special number to press once you were in the Schneider tech > support answering system, but if you followed the prompts you wouldn't > actually get to tech support. > > > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can help, > > > Vince McClellan > > Energy Design > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient, please > delete this email. Copying or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Oct 24 17:34:29 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:34:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5685e314ec8caf1dcd7eb06bc517fc3c@sti.net> Hi Chad, Yes XWpro 6848 is a drop-in replacement. Exact fit & all connections are the same as way back to 2006 when the "grey box" XW 6048 was sold. You need a connext insight home or facility device to do the initial configuration. It is a one time need for the insight home device to set the mode for offgrid. There are numerous new settings that will not work with the old SCP he has, but you do not need them for a replacement. You should not need to change firmware either as long as the system was working. Most new firmware is for the closed loop support of 10 different LFP battery systems and new grid features. There is one LFP battery Discover AES that all settings are hard written and read by connecting one xanbus network cable. https://solar.se.com/us/en/xw-pro-commissioning-guide/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-24 2:17 pm, Chad Waits via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches, > > We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in > 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm > wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here > could tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in > replacement for a system including the the old power distribution panel > accessories. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Tue Oct 24 17:56:34 2023 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:56:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: <5685e314ec8caf1dcd7eb06bc517fc3c@sti.net> References: <5685e314ec8caf1dcd7eb06bc517fc3c@sti.net> Message-ID: Thank you Dave! Chad Waits President - Net Zero Solar 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 Cell: (520) 270-4873 On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 2:34 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Chad, > > Yes XWpro 6848 is a drop-in replacement. Exact fit & all connections are > the same as way back to 2006 when the "grey box" XW 6048 was sold. You need > a connext insight home or facility device to do the initial configuration. > > It is a one time need for the insight home device to set the mode for > offgrid. There are numerous new settings > that will not work with the old SCP he has, but you do not need them for a > replacement. > > You should not need to change firmware either as long as the system was > working. Most new firmware is for the closed loop support of 10 different > LFP battery systems and new grid features. There is one LFP battery > Discover AES that all settings are hard written and read by connecting one > xanbus network cable. > > https://solar.se.com/us/en/xw-pro-commissioning-guide/ > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-10-24 2:17 pm, Chad Waits via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in > 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm > wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here could > tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in replacement > for a system including the the old power distribution panel accessories. > > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Oct 25 14:57:23 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:57:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Physically it is all the same. Software is way more complex. As Dave mentioned, you have to follow the commissioning process. AC1 will no longer accept generator input, it’s grid-only now. So if you have a genset you will need to move that to AC2. This is one of the most irritating changes with the XWPro. Makes dual-generator configs a lot more complex now. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chad Waits via RE-wrenches Sent: October-24-23 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Chad Waits Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter Wrenches, We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here could tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in replacement for a system including the the old power distribution panel accessories. Thanks! Chad Waits President - Net Zero Solar 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 Cell: (520) 270-4873 [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zMcUl5EhjemfzUnd46zPDuJwyFURzd7bNuklolvQ37rwiNtc0YPbqwUUg3S1lnCs0T7PyfxVg] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 25 15:06:39 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:06:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> Not getting this Kevin, AC2 has always been the generator input as it allows wider frequency and voltage settings for drifting gensets. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-25 11:57 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Physically it is all the same. Software is way more complex. As Dave > mentioned, you have to follow the commissioning process. > > AC1 will no longer accept generator input, it's grid-only now. So if > you have a genset you will need to move that to AC2. This is one of the > most irritating changes with the XWPro. Makes dual-generator configs a > lot more complex now. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Chad Waits via RE-wrenches > Sent: October-24-23 2:18 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Chad Waits > Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter > > Wrenches, > > We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in > 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm > wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here > could tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in > replacement for a system including the the old power distribution panel > accessories. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 15:19:24 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:19:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> References: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> Message-ID: Dave, Aren’t AC 1 and AC 2 technically interchangeable? You can set AC priority, Hz and voltage parameters on both inputs. Best, Chris On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:07 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Not getting this Kevin, AC2 has always been the generator input as it > allows wider frequency and voltage settings for drifting gensets. > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-10-25 11:57 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Physically it is all the same. Software is way more complex. As Dave > mentioned, you have to follow the commissioning process. > > > > AC1 will no longer accept generator input, it's grid-only now. So if you > have a genset you will need to move that to AC2. This is one of the most > irritating changes with the XWPro. Makes dual-generator configs a lot more > complex now. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chad Waits via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* October-24-23 2:18 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Chad Waits > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter > > > > Wrenches, > > > > We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in > 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm > wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here could > tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in replacement > for a system including the the old power distribution panel accessories. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > > > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 15:23:03 2023 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:23:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging Message-ID: <815B9266-7EFF-4187-B739-A86C77E7753F@gmail.com> Hello wrenches, We just installed an GS8048a Radian build with Mate 3SL controller (no Optics). We are having some with charging from the generator, as the generator charging seems to be limited to about 4500Watts +/- (20amps AC) when charging through the Radian. It is a Kohler 8.5RES generator and we have the AC input limit set to 30amps and the Gen input set to 30amps. The house load is only about 200Watts when we are charging. The system is at 2200ft of elevation, but I don’t know if that makes enough of a difference. The Gen output voltage seems pretty good and holds around 234V-236V while charging. Any thoughts as to why it may be limiting would be appreciated. Thanks, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Oct 25 16:11:51 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:11:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <815B9266-7EFF-4187-B739-A86C77E7753F@gmail.com> References: <815B9266-7EFF-4187-B739-A86C77E7753F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001da077f$7e92c580$7bb85080$@solarwork.com> 2200' EL should not influence the generator, seems the first 4500-5000' are covered like sealevel. How old is gen? Have you been into the settings menu as well as the Wizard? I have found settings in one and not the other that definitely effect the overall parameters. A call to OB might shortcut your Q. ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Amos Post via RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:23:03 -0600 Size: 25721 URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Oct 25 16:24:48 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:24:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating Message-ID: <003001da0781$4e0e5a30$ea2b0e90$@solarwork.com> I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new options for heating LI batteries. I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now it is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully generator back up waiting on delivery currently. Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin. Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing in with 3-4" of blue board Styrofoam.. Has anyone else done something similar? Has anyone done this & it did not work? Thought & suggestions... _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 16:28:35 2023 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:28:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating In-Reply-To: <003001da0781$4e0e5a30$ea2b0e90$@solarwork.com> References: <003001da0781$4e0e5a30$ea2b0e90$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I know the new SolArk high voltage outdoor batteries have a built in heat pump (as well as a fire suppression system) Above and beyond that, I haven't heard of any workable solutions. Daryl On Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 4:26 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new options > for heating LI batteries. > > > > I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian > 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now it > is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully generator > back up waiting on delivery currently. > > Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin. > > Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters > controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing in > with 3-4” of blue board Styrofoam…. > > > > Has anyone else done something similar? > > Has anyone done this & it did not work? > > > > Thought & suggestions….. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 16:38:01 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:38:01 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <815B9266-7EFF-4187-B739-A86C77E7753F@gmail.com> References: <815B9266-7EFF-4187-B739-A86C77E7753F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Amos, What input mode are you using? Try switching to "support" mode and see if the charging current increases. On Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 1:24 PM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > We just installed an GS8048a Radian build with Mate 3SL controller (no > Optics). We are having some with charging from the generator, as the > generator charging seems to be limited to about 4500Watts +/- (20amps AC) > when charging through the Radian. It is a Kohler 8.5RES generator and we > have the AC input limit set to 30amps and the Gen input set to 30amps. The > house load is only about 200Watts when we are charging. The system is at > 2200ft of elevation, but I don’t know if that makes enough of a difference. > The Gen output voltage seems pretty good and holds around 234V-236V while > charging. > > Any thoughts as to why it may be limiting would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Amos > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 16:43:05 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 14:43:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 25 16:51:25 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:51:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> References: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> Message-ID: <59c6a24e0fffcb278537b91b38dd097b@sti.net> On the latest firmware V1.18 both AC1 and AC2 have the same wide frequency and voltage choices. This is for watt-node in a self consumption grid mode and also for adding AC coupling to show up on conext insight on or offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-25 12:06 pm, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Not getting this Kevin, AC2 has always been the generator input as it > allows wider frequency and voltage settings for drifting gensets. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2023-10-25 11:57 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Physically it is all the same. Software is way more complex. As Dave >> mentioned, you have to follow the commissioning process. >> >> AC1 will no longer accept generator input, it's grid-only now. So if >> you have a genset you will need to move that to AC2. This is one of >> the most irritating changes with the XWPro. Makes dual-generator >> configs a lot more complex now. >> >> Kevin >> >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of Chad Waits via RE-wrenches >> Sent: October-24-23 2:18 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Cc: Chad Waits >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter >> >> Wrenches, >> >> We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back >> in 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and >> I'm wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on >> here could tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop >> in replacement for a system including the the old power distribution >> panel accessories. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Chad Waits >> President - Net Zero Solar >> >> 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 >> >> Cell: (520) 270-4873 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Wed Oct 25 17:16:34 2023 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don energysolarnow.com) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 21:16:34 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phantom loads Message-ID: Just spent yesterday debugging a Sol-Ark 15 kW inverter phantom load weirdness. With Work Mode set at Limited Power To Home it seemed to get a bit schizo, pulling around 6kW in from the grid on leg L1 and around 13 kW on the other L2 leg, with 7kW of PV added. No house loads were involved. The monitoring called this a 13 kW load. I measured something like 50 amps on L2 and neutral; 120 Volts on L1 and 125 Volts on L2 at the house. My Fluke clamp-on amp meter does not say which way AC current is flowing. The utility meter showed it as power coming in. At the main meter panel about 150 ft away from the house the voltages were better balanced; probably due to proximity to the utility transformer. Those leg voltages were balanced when the inverter was shut down. Oddly, this phantom loading decreased with decreasing PV production later in the day. Working with Sol-Ark tech support we (of course) downloaded new firmware, then changed Work Mode to Limited Power To Load. After a couple of resets this had the effect of allowing the inverter to cover just the loads in the battery-backed subpanel; not those at the house main panel where the CT sensors are located. The phantom 13kW load has not recurred. Has anyone seen an inverter try to mix import and export on different legs by creating phantom loads? Don Barch Energy Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Oct 25 17:31:57 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:31:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phantom loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006c01da078a$aef9aad0$0ced0070$@mindspring.com> Don We recently went through a few issues with a 15. Call me to discuss. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar 678 525 0468 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of don energysolarnow.com via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 5:17 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: don energysolarnow.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phantom loads Just spent yesterday debugging a Sol-Ark 15 kW inverter phantom load weirdness. With Work Mode set at Limited Power To Home it seemed to get a bit schizo, pulling around 6kW in from the grid on leg L1 and around 13 kW on the other L2 leg, with 7kW of PV added. No house loads were involved. The monitoring called this a 13 kW load. I measured something like 50 amps on L2 and neutral; 120 Volts on L1 and 125 Volts on L2 at the house. My Fluke clamp-on amp meter does not say which way AC current is flowing. The utility meter showed it as power coming in. At the main meter panel about 150 ft away from the house the voltages were better balanced; probably due to proximity to the utility transformer. Those leg voltages were balanced when the inverter was shut down. Oddly, this phantom loading decreased with decreasing PV production later in the day. Working with Sol-Ark tech support we (of course) downloaded new firmware, then changed Work Mode to Limited Power To Load. After a couple of resets this had the effect of allowing the inverter to cover just the loads in the battery-backed subpanel; not those at the house main panel where the CT sensors are located. The phantom 13kW load has not recurred. Has anyone seen an inverter try to mix import and export on different legs by creating phantom loads? Don Barch Energy Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at abundantsolar.com Wed Oct 25 18:46:05 2023 From: kirk at abundantsolar.com (Kirk Bailey) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:46:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question Message-ID: Hi All! We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area: Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters! My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was the best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I recently read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in situations where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar radiation is all that makes it through. They indicate that under those conditions a horizontal array will produce significantly more energy than even a two-axis tracker! Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be making it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is usually enough energy the rest of the time, should we be installing off-grid arrays at a shallower angle? Anyone tried this? Kirk Bailey kirk at abundantsolar.com www.abundantsolar.com (1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 18:59:50 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:59:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC and loans Message-ID: <60FACC06-F285-45DC-8106-16D9765A36E8@gmail.com> Hi all. Any quick answers about how the ITC tax credit deals with loans on a solar system? Thanks Jay From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 19:01:39 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:01:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used to have both an array at a 60° tilt and one at 14° tilt. In the winter the high tilt array did better on sunny days, and on cloudy days the shallow array did better. They were different modules and different sized arrays, so without more analysis than I did, it would be hard to tell which is better through the winter, but it looked like they were similar in overall output. However, once March rolled around the steeper array started to do much better (more sun), and by summer the shallow array did much better. I'm at 47° N and I think if I had a choice of any tilt, but without adjustability, I'd probably set it at latitude or therabouts. If you're west of the mountains you're probably going to need another source of power anyway. I say that, but judging from the modelling I did of the output of my micro-inverter system it might just be possible to get through the winter with an array 500% overisized. And that with only 2 or 3 days of battery autonomy. This was surprising to me. Do keep in mind that an array with snow on it has 0 output. Brad Bassett On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:47 PM Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi All! > > > We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across > something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area: > Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters! > > My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was the > best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I recently > read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in situations > where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar radiation is all > that makes it through. They indicate that under those conditions a > horizontal array will produce significantly more energy than even a > two-axis tracker! > > Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be making > it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is usually enough > energy the rest of the time, should we be installing off-grid arrays at a > shallower angle? > > Anyone tried this? > > > Kirk Bailey > > kirk at abundantsolar.com > > www.abundantsolar.com > > > (1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic > energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Oct 25 19:16:18 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 23:16:18 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> References: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> Message-ID: Dave, My work is focused on remote, off-grid clients. With the XW6048, and XW+6048 it worked well. Gen 1 on AC1, Gen 2 on AC2. Set the AGS start settings a bit lower for second gen. Then if any issues with Gen1, Gen 2 would catch it and less urgent service calls to remote wherever to sort out. Whole lot simpler and cost savings for client as compared to external transfer switches and paired gensets. With XWPro, AC1 is no longer available for generator as far as I can tell. I spent a lot of time with tech support on my first XWPro using same configs. They didn’t seem to realize this initially as well. Gen 1/AC1 would kick into passthrough mode but refused to engage charger consistently. Took a lot of time, but finally was informed that AC1 no longer supports generators. I wish there was a way to load XW+ firmware onto XWPro, or such to make the XWPro off-grid friendly and rid of parameters related to grid tie. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches Sent: October-25-23 12:07 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter Not getting this Kevin, AC2 has always been the generator input as it allows wider frequency and voltage settings for drifting gensets. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-25 11:57 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: Physically it is all the same. Software is way more complex. As Dave mentioned, you have to follow the commissioning process. AC1 will no longer accept generator input, it's grid-only now. So if you have a genset you will need to move that to AC2. This is one of the most irritating changes with the XWPro. Makes dual-generator configs a lot more complex now. Kevin From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Chad Waits via RE-wrenches Sent: October-24-23 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Chad Waits > Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter Wrenches, We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here could tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in replacement for a system including the the old power distribution panel accessories. Thanks! Chad Waits President - Net Zero Solar 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 Cell: (520) 270-4873 [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zMcUl5EhjemfzUnd46zPDuJwyFURzd7bNuklolvQ37rwiNtc0YPbqwUUg3S1lnCs0T7PyfxVg] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Oct 25 19:25:57 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:25:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <657d07f4dbe93f78448d61c05a9e1712@sti.net> Kirk, Can you reference your paper on this? So many variables and each location will be different. Most dual axis trackers can always be left flat or any angle so that does not make sense to me. You have to design for winter offgrid if the location is worth it. Or, alot of hours on a genset. Super large arrays in your area will help give you more days/hours before you need the iron genoa. You have to decide if it is worth the money. The home has to have the ability to shed some loads also. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-25 3:46 pm, Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All! > > We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across > something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area: > Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters! > > My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was > the best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I > recently read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in > situations where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar > radiation is all that makes it through. They indicate that under those > conditions a horizontal array will produce significantly more energy > than even a two-axis tracker! > > Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be > making it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is > usually enough energy the rest of the time, should we be installing > off-grid arrays at a shallower angle? > > Anyone tried this? > > Kirk Bailey > > kirk at abundantsolar.com > > www.abundantsolar.com [1] > > (1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic > energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.abundantsolar.com [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 19:49:10 2023 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (integrityenergy101) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:49:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <000001da077f$7e92c580$7bb85080$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <6539a975.0c0a0220.94be5.dd82@mx.google.com> Thanks Dana.  OB wasn't able to help us solve the issue.  The gen is roughly 10 years old. John setup with the Wizard originally and then we've just been using the settings menu since.  Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches Date: 10/25/23 4:12 PM (GMT-05:00) To: 'RE-wrenches' Cc: dana at solarwork.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging 2200’ EL should not influence the generator, seems the first 4500-5000’ are covered like sealevel. How old is gen?Have you been into the settings menu as well as the Wizard?I have found settings in one and not the other that definitely effect the overall parameters. A call to OB might shortcut your Q. ___________________________________________________Dana Orzel  c- 2087217003   e – dana at solarwork.com  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at abundantsolar.com Wed Oct 25 19:49:04 2023 From: kirk at abundantsolar.com (Kirk Bailey) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:49:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question In-Reply-To: <657d07f4dbe93f78448d61c05a9e1712@sti.net> References: <657d07f4dbe93f78448d61c05a9e1712@sti.net> Message-ID: Dave, The paper reference was at the bottom of my original post (1), but a quick summary of what they recommended was exactly what you mentioned - Have two axis trackers "go horizontal" during heavy overcast instead of continuing to track the sun to improve production! I'm familiar with the general tradeoffs for off-grid in terms of array oversizing, generator usage, and load shedding: We have had past customers that have made it work for them, and others that couldn't and ultimately decided to get a grid connection! Cheers, Kirk Bailey kirk at abundantsolar.com Kirk, Can you reference your paper on this? So many variables and each location will be different. Most dual axis trackers can always be left flat or any angle so that does not make sense to me. You have to design for winter offgrid if the location is worth it. Or, alot of hours on a genset. Super large arrays in your area will help give you more days/hours before you need the iron genoa. You have to decide if it is worth the money. The home has to have the ability to shed some loads also. *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://offgridsolar1.com/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060* On 2023-10-25 3:46 pm, Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi All! We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area: Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters! My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was the best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I recently read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in situations where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar radiation is all that makes it through. They indicate that under those conditions a horizontal array will produce significantly more energy than even a two-axis tracker! Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be making it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is usually enough energy the rest of the time, should we be installing off-grid arrays at a shallower angle? Anyone tried this? Kirk Bailey kirk at abundantsolar.com www.abundantsolar.com (1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 19:58:16 2023 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (integrityenergy101) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:58:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> Charger Limit is also set to 30 amps. We tried raising the total AC input limit to max and that may have helped increase the chargeby 200-300watts up to 4.8kw but thats it. By my math we should be able to see about 6KW+/- of charging power. We are using Generator input mode I  believe.  We will try switching to Support mode and see if that helps.  By the way batteries are 8- Simpliphi 3.8.    Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Jay via RE-wrenches Date: 10/25/23 4:43 PM (GMT-05:00) To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging What is the charger ac limit set to?JayOn Oct 25, 2023, at 2:38 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:Hi Amos,What input mode are you using?Try switching to "support" mode and see if the charging current increases. On Wed, Oct 25, 2023, 1:24 PM Amos Post via RE-wrenches wrote:Hello wrenches,We just installed an GS8048a Radian build with Mate 3SL controller (no Optics).  We are having some with charging from the generator, as the generator charging seems to be limited to about 4500Watts +/- (20amps AC) when charging through the Radian.  It is a Kohler 8.5RES generator and we have the AC input limit set to 30amps and the Gen input set to 30amps.  The house load is only about 200Watts when we are charging.  The system is at 2200ft of elevation, but I don’t know if that makes enough of a difference.The Gen output voltage seems pretty good and holds around 234V-236V while charging.Any thoughts as to why it may be limiting would be appreciated.Thanks,Amos        Amos Post   Integrity Energy  W 802.763.7023   C 802.291.2188    ienergyVT.com        Facebook _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 20:30:38 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:30:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> References: <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 20:42:43 2023 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (integrityenergy101) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 20:42:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6539b603.c80a0220.e144e.2f06@mx.google.com> This is too funny.  I just stumbled upon this phenomenon last week and have tested it several times with my irradiance meter over the last week or so.  I'm seeing consistently higher irradiance/panel output with panels at a very shallow to horizontal angle than those set to latitude on cloudy days in VT.  And we have plenty of them this time of year!AmosSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches Date: 10/25/23 7:03 PM (GMT-05:00) To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bradley Bassett Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question I used to have both an array at a 60° tilt and one at 14° tilt. In the winter the high tilt array did better on sunny days, and on cloudy days the shallow array did better. They were different modules and different sized arrays, so without more analysis than I did, it would be hard to tell which is better through the winter, but it looked like they were similar in overall output. However, once March rolled around the steeper array started to do much better (more sun), and by summer the shallow array did much better. I'm at 47° N and I think if I had a choice of any tilt, but without adjustability, I'd probably set it at latitude or therabouts. If you're west of the mountains you're probably going to need another source of power anyway. I say that, but judging from the modelling I did of the output of my micro-inverter system it might just be possible to get through the winter with an array 500% overisized. And that with only 2 or 3 days of battery autonomy. This was surprising to me. Do keep in mind that an array with snow on it has 0 output.  Brad BassettOn Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:47 PM Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi All!We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area: Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters! My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was the best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I recently read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in situations where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar radiation is all that makes it through. They indicate that under those conditions a horizontal array will produce significantly more energy than even a two-axis tracker! Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be making it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is usually enough energy the rest of the time, should we be installing off-grid arrays at a shallower angle? Anyone tried this? Kirk Baileykirk at abundantsolar.com www.abundantsolar.com (1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 21:06:31 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 19:06:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63DF2B1B-B35E-44E5-BF72-BD042F953EAA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Wed Oct 25 21:12:32 2023 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:12:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question In-Reply-To: <6539b603.c80a0220.e144e.2f06@mx.google.com> References: <6539b603.c80a0220.e144e.2f06@mx.google.com> Message-ID: It is difficult to quantify but this was pointed out to me years ago by a long-time off-grid installer, who also lives off grid on Vancouver Island where weeks of solid cloud isn't unusual. We never tilt to latitude + 10 to 15 for off-grid, as many textbooks recommend. Latitude works quite well. When I've tried modelling it, January is the only month that seems to outperform when tilted at less than latitude, which is often our cloudiest month. We also have a lot of conifers here so tilting to 60 degrees often means the modules are facing the trees anyway. Fortunately we don't get much snow so a shallow tilt is OK. *Eric Smiley,* Design Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 17:42, integrityenergy101 via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > This is too funny. I just stumbled upon this phenomenon last week and > have tested it several times with my irradiance meter over the last week or > so. I'm seeing consistently higher irradiance/panel output with panels at > a very shallow to horizontal angle than those set to latitude on cloudy > days in VT. And we have plenty of them this time of year! > > Amos > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches > Date: 10/25/23 7:03 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Bradley Bassett > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question > > I used to have both an array at a 60° tilt and one at 14° tilt. In the > winter the high tilt array did better on sunny days, and on cloudy days the > shallow array did better. They were different modules and different sized > arrays, so without more analysis than I did, it would be hard to tell which > is better through the winter, but it looked like they were similar in > overall output. However, once March rolled around the steeper array started > to do much better (more sun), and by summer the shallow array did much > better. I'm at 47° N and I think if I had a choice of any tilt, but without > adjustability, I'd probably set it at latitude or therabouts. If you're > west of the mountains you're probably going to need another source of power > anyway. I say that, but judging from the modelling I did of the output of > my micro-inverter system it might just be possible to get through the > winter with an array 500% overisized. And that with only 2 or 3 days of > battery autonomy. This was surprising to me. Do keep in mind that an array > with snow on it has 0 output. > > Brad Bassett > > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:47 PM Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All! >> >> >> We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across >> something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area: >> Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters! >> >> My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was the >> best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I recently >> read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in situations >> where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar radiation is all >> that makes it through. They indicate that under those conditions a >> horizontal array will produce significantly more energy than even a >> two-axis tracker! >> >> Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be making >> it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is usually enough >> energy the rest of the time, should we be installing off-grid arrays at a >> shallower angle? >> >> Anyone tried this? >> >> >> Kirk Bailey >> >> kirk at abundantsolar.com >> >> www.abundantsolar.com >> >> >> (1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic >> energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 25 21:12:07 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:12:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <815B9266-7EFF-4187-B739-A86C77E7753F@gmail.com> References: <815B9266-7EFF-4187-B739-A86C77E7753F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Amos: At the risk of stating the obvious: The batteries have to be ready to accept maximum charge. They need to be in good condition and fully discharged. Max charge amps will occur only briefly then the charge rate will start to taper. Your charging settings need to be correct including temperature compensation. Any other charge inputs need to be disabled during testing, such as solar, wind or hydro. Check for THD on the generator output. If the waveform deviates much from sinusoidal the inherent power will be reduced. Radians have been known to instigate high THD rates on generator feeds during charging, especially in Generator input mode. Trying the Support mode is good advice. (We had this case a while back. Recently a random person called to relate he had similar problems and found our case study. He installed a capacitor (20mFd?) on the generator leads and the THD decreased significantly. I have not tried this.) William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Amos Post via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, October 25, 2023 12:23 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Amos Post *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging Hello wrenches, We just installed an GS8048a Radian build with Mate 3SL controller (no Optics). We are having some with charging from the generator, as the generator charging seems to be limited to about 4500Watts +/- (20amps AC) when charging through the Radian. It is a Kohler 8.5RES generator and we have the AC input limit set to 30amps and the Gen input set to 30amps. The house load is only about 200Watts when we are charging. The system is at 2200ft of elevation, but I don’t know if that makes enough of a difference. The Gen output voltage seems pretty good and holds around 234V-236V while charging. Any thoughts as to why it may be limiting would be appreciated. Thanks, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 22:58:36 2023 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 16:58:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Truss Roofs Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I have a good for the group. Does anyone know a lag/fastener other than EJOT that could be used to install PV to a home with metal trusses? To complicate things the roof is tile and the decking is 1/2" ply. We do have access to the attic, but in only half the house because of the cathedral ceilings. I am thinking of reducing the array size and doing through bolts that would have to be fastened from inside the attic. Please let me know if anyone has an idea or solution here. Good times. Mahalo in advance. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-39784 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Thu Oct 26 00:29:44 2023 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 18:29:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island AC-Coupled system integration with Fortress E-Vault In-Reply-To: <8e5399f770af30f76906a4a265a47f9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e5399f770af30f76906a4a265a47f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Michael, Sorry to hear about your problems. We have gone through several SMA SI issues that can be very difficult to narrow down but found most of the time the issues are founded on miss understanding the affects that different set points have on the over all system operation. In your system, I assume but want to confirm that the Sunny boys are set to off grid mode? And they have hardwired communications with Sunny Islands with the proper piggy back cards installed? We have two SMA SI offgrid system that we replaced lead acid batteries with LFP and are successfully operating both in open loop communications. Both are working well with minimal variation in SOC between SMA and batteries, both do have separate DC charging sources and therefore have external shunts enabled for monitoring the external charging sources (not sure if this plays a factor). Both are properly regulating the AC coupled PV, but took some adjustments to the SI charging parameters boost, full charge, float and equalize, to get it working well, as well as we found VRLA default battery SOC algorithm works better with LFP replacements. Also one point of note is on any new battery programing the system attempts to do a full charge and automatically sets battery SOC to 50%, how ever if everything is programmed correctly it should just raise the battery to its full voltage and hold it there, and it will then slowly auto correct the SOC. What did you set the max charge current for the batteries at? Have the batteries discharged over a night and does this still happen when the batteries are at a discharged state? If you want to talk through details, you can reach me on my cell, just be mindful of hawaii time. Aloha, Roland Shackelford President / Owner NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 O 808.775.7410 | M 808.938.9239 | 45-487 Lehua St Honokaa, HI 96727 Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 4:31 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > This situation is as yet unresolved. It is complicated enough I created a web > page > > to describe the scenario so I did not have to explain it over and over. I > submitted this to Fortress tech support. They said they had likely not > tested the Fortress compatibility with SI in an AC-Coupled system. > > > > While Fortress technicians and/or engineers ponder the situation I am > brainstorming solutions. One idea is to convert to a DC coupled system. > DC Charge controllers will have intrinsically better voltage control. The > charge controller most likely suitable is the Schneider 600 volt 100 amp > unit. I would need two of them. It is compatible with the existing string > wiring. In researching it many questions came up about that product’s > suitability. There is an integration guide for a Schneider system and > Fortress but this would be a mixed system of Schneider and SMA. Would I be > able to apply closed loop communication to both systems? Could the charge > controllers work in open loop? Has anyone tried anything like this? > > > > I will keep you apprised. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Oct 26 09:16:12 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:16:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> This may be far fetched but I have encountered good voltage & low amperage = no amperage from solar arrays that baffled me on T/S on others systems & ultimately: We had voltage & low output amperage to no amperage. Turns out there was a junction box that had been forgotten about in the crawl space with never tightened split bolts that were crispy black from arcing. There was enough contact for voltage readings & not enough for any amps to flow. Double check all connections? ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "integrityenergy101 via RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 17:58:16 -0600 Size: 20785 URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 10:29:37 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:29:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid, Cloudy Days, Solar Tilt Question In-Reply-To: <63DF2B1B-B35E-44E5-BF72-BD042F953EAA@gmail.com> References: <63DF2B1B-B35E-44E5-BF72-BD042F953EAA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, I don't really remember, it was years ago that I had that setup, and did not have any way to keep records except on paper which I did not do. Brad On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:07 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Brad > > Out of curiosity, what is the actual difference between the two on those > cloudy days. > > Thx > Jay > > > > On Oct 25, 2023, at 5:04 PM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > I used to have both an array at a 60° tilt and one at 14° tilt. In the > winter the high tilt array did better on sunny days, and on cloudy days the > shallow array did better. They were different modules and different sized > arrays, so without more analysis than I did, it would be hard to tell which > is better through the winter, but it looked like they were similar in > overall output. However, once March rolled around the steeper array started > to do much better (more sun), and by summer the shallow array did much > better. I'm at 47° N and I think if I had a choice of any tilt, but without > adjustability, I'd probably set it at latitude or therabouts. If you're > west of the mountains you're probably going to need another source of power > anyway. I say that, but judging from the modelling I did of the output of > my micro-inverter system it might just be possible to get through the > winter with an array 500% overisized. And that with only 2 or 3 days of > battery autonomy. This was surprising to me. Do keep in mind that an array > with snow on it has 0 output. > > Brad Bassett > > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 3:47 PM Kirk Bailey via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi All! >> >> >> We don't do a lot of pure off-grid systems and I recently ran across >> something I wanted to run by folks with more experience in this area: >> Optimal array tilt for our very cloudy PNW winters! >> >> My understanding has always been that latitude plus 10-15 degrees was the >> best tilt to address our winter energy shortage. However a paper I recently >> read (1), makes a compelling case for a much shallower tilt in situations >> where the cloud cover is so heavy that "diffuse" solar radiation is all >> that makes it through. They indicate that under those conditions a >> horizontal array will produce significantly more energy than even a >> two-axis tracker! >> >> Given that the challenge in our off-grid setups always seems to be making >> it through the really cloudy stretches, and that there is usually enough >> energy the rest of the time, should we be installing off-grid arrays at a >> shallower angle? >> >> Anyone tried this? >> >> >> Kirk Bailey >> >> kirk at abundantsolar.com >> >> www.abundantsolar.com >> >> >> (1) Kelly, N.A., Gibson, T.L, 2011, Increasing the solar photovoltaic >> energy capture on sunny and cloudy days. Solar Energy 85, 111-125. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 10:37:24 2023 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:37:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: References: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> Message-ID: Doh!, We ran into this several months ago and no one at Schneider could explain it. So we had to tell our client to pick their preferred generator as there apparently could only be one. Connected to AC 2. Now I know. On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 4:17 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dave, > > > > My work is focused on remote, off-grid clients. With the XW6048, and > XW+6048 it worked well. Gen 1 on AC1, Gen 2 on AC2. Set the AGS start > settings a bit lower for second gen. Then if any issues with Gen1, Gen 2 > would catch it and less urgent service calls to remote wherever to sort > out. Whole lot simpler and cost savings for client as compared to external > transfer switches and paired gensets. > > > > With XWPro, AC1 is no longer available for generator as far as I can tell. > I spent a lot of time with tech support on my first XWPro using same > configs. They didn’t seem to realize this initially as well. Gen 1/AC1 > would kick into passthrough mode but refused to engage charger > consistently. Took a lot of time, but finally was informed that AC1 no > longer supports generators. > > > > I wish there was a way to load XW+ firmware onto XWPro, or such to make > the XWPro off-grid friendly and rid of parameters related to grid tie. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* October-25-23 12:07 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter > > > > Not getting this Kevin, AC2 has always been the generator input as it > allows wider frequency and voltage settings for drifting gensets. > > > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > * https://offgridsolar1.com/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > > > On 2023-10-25 11:57 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Physically it is all the same. Software is way more complex. As Dave > mentioned, you have to follow the commissioning process. > > > > AC1 will no longer accept generator input, it's grid-only now. So if you > have a genset you will need to move that to AC2. This is one of the most > irritating changes with the XWPro. Makes dual-generator configs a lot more > complex now. > > > > Kevin > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chad Waits via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* October-24-23 2:18 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Chad Waits > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter > > > > Wrenches, > > > > We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in > 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm > wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here could > tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in replacement > for a system including the the old power distribution panel accessories. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 10:42:17 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:42:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APsmart and charge controllers Message-ID: I had a talk with tech support at APS about using the APSmart RSD devices in my DC coupled system. I found it hard to understand him so I'm not completely clear on what he said. One thing was clear and that is they do not test these for use with charge controllers, so can't support that use. Other than that I think he said that they require a certain amount of resistance on the power lines to stay powered up. He said that it would not likely stay powered up when connected directly to a battery bank, and would not stay powered up on an open circuit. What I ran into using 2 strings of 4 modules in series is in low light they would turn on, voltage would rise to open circuit voltage, then collapse back to 0. The charge controller would turn on when the voltage rose and turn off when the voltage fell. Repeat over and over. When full sun was on the array it would stay connected, but operated at a voltage indicating one each APS was not turned on in each string. I now have Fireraptors on the array which of course works fine. But what a lot of wire to deal with. Also note that the Fireraptors work fine powered up with 15 volts instead of the specified 24 volts. Has anyone successfully used these with any charge controllers? Brad Bassett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Thu Oct 26 10:59:48 2023 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 14:59:48 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phantom loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don, Your Fluke clamp meter should indicate the current flow by showing a negative or positive current reading unless you've got an old meter. On the top of the meter inside the jaw is an arrow that points in the direction of current flow if the reading is positive. If it's negative, the current is flowing in the opposite direction of the arrow. Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of don energysolarnow.com via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 5:17 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: don energysolarnow.com Subject: [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phantom loads CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Just spent yesterday debugging a Sol-Ark 15 kW inverter phantom load weirdness. With Work Mode set at Limited Power To Home it seemed to get a bit schizo, pulling around 6kW in from the grid on leg L1 and around 13 kW on the other L2 leg, with 7kW of PV added. No house loads were involved. The monitoring called this a 13 kW load. I measured something like 50 amps on L2 and neutral; 120 Volts on L1 and 125 Volts on L2 at the house. My Fluke clamp-on amp meter does not say which way AC current is flowing. The utility meter showed it as power coming in. At the main meter panel about 150 ft away from the house the voltages were better balanced; probably due to proximity to the utility transformer. Those leg voltages were balanced when the inverter was shut down. Oddly, this phantom loading decreased with decreasing PV production later in the day. Working with Sol-Ark tech support we (of course) downloaded new firmware, then changed Work Mode to Limited Power To Load. After a couple of resets this had the effect of allowing the inverter to cover just the loads in the battery-backed subpanel; not those at the house main panel where the CT sensors are located. The phantom 13kW load has not recurred. Has anyone seen an inverter try to mix import and export on different legs by creating phantom loads? Don Barch Energy Solar ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 11:23:07 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:23:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phantom loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a similar issue once with a Sol-Ark 12k, triple stack. The issue ended up being that the phase relationship got reversed during the installation. AC out and AC in need to be carefully phased out. I don't really understand why, but it's an easy thing to check. Let us know what you find. Good luck On Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 9:03 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Don, > > > > Your Fluke clamp meter should indicate the current flow by showing a > negative or positive current reading unless you’ve got an old meter. On the > top of the meter inside the jaw is an arrow that points in the direction of > current flow if the reading is positive. If it’s negative, the current is > flowing in the opposite direction of the arrow. > > > > Thanks, > > Will > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *don energysolarnow.com via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 25, 2023 5:17 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Cc:* don energysolarnow.com > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phantom loads > > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > Just spent yesterday debugging a Sol-Ark 15 kW inverter phantom load > weirdness. > > With Work Mode set at Limited Power To Home it seemed to get a bit schizo, > pulling around 6kW in from the grid on leg L1 and around 13 kW on the other > L2 leg, with 7kW of PV added. No house loads were involved. The monitoring > called this a 13 kW load. > > I measured something like 50 amps on L2 and neutral; 120 Volts on L1 and > 125 Volts on L2 at the house. My Fluke clamp-on amp meter does not say > which way AC current is flowing. The utility meter showed it as power > coming in. > > At the main meter panel about 150 ft away from the house the voltages were > better balanced; probably due to proximity to the utility transformer. > Those leg voltages were balanced when the inverter was shut down. > > Oddly, this phantom loading decreased with decreasing PV production later > in the day. > > Working with Sol-Ark tech support we (of course) downloaded new firmware, > then changed Work Mode to Limited Power To Load. After a couple of resets > this had the effect of allowing the inverter to cover just the loads in the > battery-backed subpanel; not those at the house main panel where the CT > sensors are located. The phantom 13kW load has not recurred. > > Has anyone seen an inverter try to mix import and export on different legs > by creating phantom loads? > > > > Don Barch > > Energy Solar > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If > you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying > to the sender and delete this message. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Oct 26 12:04:25 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:04:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter In-Reply-To: References: <314ff46a435f241cc78bc40d07163a3a@sti.net> Message-ID: <82d441b01c8e22125cf8cb36ada186db@sti.net> If you load v1.18 and have latest xwp FW you should be good in an Offgrid AEExxx grid code. This was for Grid apps that as you know are 95%+ of the market. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-26 7:37 am, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote: > Doh!, We ran into this several months ago and no one at Schneider could > explain it. So we had to tell our client to pick their preferred > generator as there apparently could only be one. Connected to AC 2. Now > I know. > > On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 4:17 PM Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Dave, > > My work is focused on remote, off-grid clients. With the XW6048, and > XW+6048 it worked well. Gen 1 on AC1, Gen 2 on AC2. Set the AGS start > settings a bit lower for second gen. Then if any issues with Gen1, Gen > 2 would catch it and less urgent service calls to remote wherever to > sort out. Whole lot simpler and cost savings for client as compared to > external transfer switches and paired gensets. > > With XWPro, AC1 is no longer available for generator as far as I can > tell. I spent a lot of time with tech support on my first XWPro using > same configs. They didn't seem to realize this initially as well. Gen > 1/AC1 would kick into passthrough mode but refused to engage charger > consistently. Took a lot of time, but finally was informed that AC1 no > longer supports generators. > > I wish there was a way to load XW+ firmware onto XWPro, or such to make > the XWPro off-grid friendly and rid of parameters related to grid tie. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches > Sent: October-25-23 12:07 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter > > Not getting this Kevin, AC2 has always been the generator input as it > allows wider frequency and voltage settings for drifting gensets. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > On 2023-10-25 11:57 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Physically it is all the same. Software is way more complex. As Dave > mentioned, you have to follow the commissioning process. > > AC1 will no longer accept generator input, it's grid-only now. So if > you have a genset you will need to move that to AC2. This is one of the > most irritating changes with the XWPro. Makes dual-generator configs a > lot more complex now. > > Kevin > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Chad Waits via RE-wrenches > Sent: October-24-23 2:18 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Chad Waits > Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Drop in replacement inverter > > Wrenches, > > We have a client that had us construct a solar trailer for them back in > 2014-2015 timeframe. The Current XW6048-120/240-60 is cooked and I'm > wondering if the Schneider rep (or you savvy off grid guys) on here > could tell me if the newer XW Pro 6.8kW 120/240 is an exact drop in > replacement for a system including the the old power distribution panel > accessories. > > Thanks! > > Chad Waits > President - Net Zero Solar > > 945 W. Silverlake Rd, Tucson AZ 85713 > > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, CA 96067 530-921-0560 mjmorningstar at gmail.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cf2c4967.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 108644 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Oct 26 12:08:20 2023 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:08:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Truss Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, I can think of one install I performed in 2017 that was a metal roof over metal purlins and we opted to through-bolt the entire array using one installer on a ladder inside and another on the roof. We employed butyl mastic and large fender washers to attach a strut frame to the roof, and then we installed traditional L-feet and rails atop the strut. I have zero experience working with tile so I don't know what your best methodology is there but I can attest that the through-bolting has held up well at that site the past five years. Sincerely, Sam Haraldson [image: OnSite Energy] SAM HARALDSON Field Operations Director (406) 551-6135 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 Locally owned and operated since 2012 [image: B Corporation] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 12:26:20 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:26:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wattnode AC Coupling Monitoring on Insight Cloud Message-ID: Hi All, Has anyone successfully implemented the new AC coupled monitoring function using a Wattnode meter (Gateway firmware V1.18) so that it shows up on Insight Cloud? I have been able to get it to display on Insight Local, but not on the Cloud. I have spent perhaps 20-30 hours on getting this function to work (working with Eric Bentsen as well as countless other Schneider support personnel). I've been told that if it shows up on Insight Local but not the Cloud, then that is an issue at Schneider's end. Now I'm wondering if there is something about the oler Gateway (not a "Home" device) which is causing this issue. Just wondering if anyone has been successful at implementing this feature so that it shows up on the Cloud. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Oct 26 12:39:36 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:39:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wattnode AC Coupling Monitoring on Insight Cloud In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36f5ba997ca732edf6e30c335067ba76@sti.net> Hi Howie ! I see the same thing except if you read the last line, they are saying soon on the cloud. Good that it is working local though! Version: v1.18 Build 041 [25 July 2023] Please clear your web browser cache before logging in to web GUI. Download the latest firmware (.epkg) from https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-gateway/ https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/insighthome-and-insightfacility-edgedevices/ Features Summary of features * Support for AC1 Generator * Support WATTNODE CT3 setup to monitor AC coupled solar automatically * Support for AC coupled power flow displayed on dashboard via WATTNODE meter * Add UI for XW Pro AC Output Voltage Calibration * Support closed loop battery configuration pass through to MPPT * Support to download HSM trace log file via web API * Add battery temperature data on XW Pro status screen * Support for operating without SD card * Upgrade IotHubAgent to v3.1.8 * Support XW Pro 2.10 BN25 Summary of fixes provided: * Fix for Modbus time registers returning fixed values * Fix for value setting on "External Contactor" * Fix for not being able to enable Grid support thru Insight Facility * Fix for Aux Relay Time of Day Trigger not working issue * Fix for Low Battery Cut out Warning Offset setting issue * Fix for manual refresh causing XW parameters changes issue * Fix for secondary XW Pro going back into grid forming when in standby mode * Improvement for exported PDF file format * Fix for TPM test failure issue 2 Conext(tm) Gateway Release Notes Internal * Improvement for WATTNODE device status page * Change IEC 61727-2014 grid code name to IEC 61727-2004 Summary of new supported batteries: * DISCOVER AES 44-48-3000 * DISCOVER AES 42-48-6650 * FortressPowerEvaultMax 18_5 * DISCOVER HELIOS 46-48-1540 * DISCOVER ELEMENT 48-48-5120 * PYLONTECH UP5000 * PYLONTECH US5000 * PYLONTECH PELIO * HOMEGRID MQ_1 * HOMEGRID MQ_2 * HOMEGRID MQ_3 * HOMEGRID MQ_4 * HOMEGRID MQ_5 * HOMEGRID MQ_6 * HOMEGRID MQ_7 * HOMEGRID MQ_8 * HOMEGRID COMPACT * EG4-LifePower4 * EG4-LL * DEKA_DURATION_DD5300 Known Limitations * Analog and Digital I/O is not supported * After downgrading an XW device, the gateway must be restarted * Upgrading from v1.07 and earlier to v1.08 and later will cause the cloud to be disabled, requiring the user to re-enable the cloud via the Web UI * The gateway does not have a web server trusted root certificate * PDF Generation does not work correctly in Internet Explorer * Temperature will not be shown in Battery Summary page if only MPPT device installed BTS (Battery Temperature Sensor). * Upgrade from old version to v1.18 may cause the BMS setup status change from "successful" to "modified", re-apply it, or leave it alone. * After changing or applying BMS setup, refreshing configuration is required to make the UI configuration match device value. * AC coupled power flow on InsightCloud & InsightMobile will be coming soon. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-26 9:26 am, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > Has anyone successfully implemented the new AC coupled monitoring > function using a Wattnode meter (Gateway firmware V1.18) so that it > shows up on Insight Cloud? I have been able to get it to display on > Insight Local, but not on the Cloud. I have spent perhaps 20-30 hours > on getting this function to work (working with Eric Bentsen as well as > countless other Schneider support personnel). I've been told that if it > shows up on Insight Local but not the Cloud, then that is an issue at > Schneider's end. Now I'm wondering if there is something about the oler > Gateway (not a "Home" device) which is causing this issue. Just > wondering if anyone has been successful at implementing this feature so > that it shows up on the Cloud. > Thanks, Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Oct 26 12:47:33 2023 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:47:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating In-Reply-To: <003001da0781$4e0e5a30$ea2b0e90$@solarwork.com> References: <003001da0781$4e0e5a30$ea2b0e90$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <2daacc63-79cd-4e8c-adfe-2bce489525c4@sindelarsolar.com> You might be able to get some ideas from this. It's worked well for me on one job. Allan On 10/25/2023 2:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new > options for heating LI batteries. > > I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian > 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now > it is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully > generator back up waiting on delivery currently. > > Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin. > > Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters > controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing > in with 3-4” of blue board Styrofoam…. > > Has anyone else done something similar? > > Has anyone done this & it did not work? > > Thought & suggestions….. > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003      E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > /_“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”_/ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com RETIRED -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Blue Planet Energy Insulated box.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 907975 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 12:54:36 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:54:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wattnode AC Coupling Monitoring on Insight Cloud In-Reply-To: <36f5ba997ca732edf6e30c335067ba76@sti.net> References: <36f5ba997ca732edf6e30c335067ba76@sti.net> Message-ID: Thanks for pointing that limitation out Dave. Would have been helpful if one of the many different techs i spoke and emailed with at Schneider support could have pointed that out to me before I spent too many hours chasing my tail on this one. Howie On Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 12:41 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Howie ! > > I see the same thing except if you read the last line, they are saying > soon on the cloud. Good that it is working local though! > > Version: v1.18 Build 041 [25 July 2023] > Please clear your web browser cache before logging in to web GUI. > Download the latest firmware (.epkg) from > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-gateway/ > > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/insighthome-and-insightfacility-edgedevices/ > Features > Summary of features > • Support for AC1 Generator > • Support WATTNODE CT3 setup to monitor AC coupled solar automatically > • Support for AC coupled power flow displayed on dashboard via WATTNODE > meter > • Add UI for XW Pro AC Output Voltage Calibration > • Support closed loop battery configuration pass through to MPPT > • Support to download HSM trace log file via web API > • Add battery temperature data on XW Pro status screen > • Support for operating without SD card > • Upgrade IotHubAgent to v3.1.8 > • Support XW Pro 2.10 BN25 > Summary of fixes provided: > • Fix for Modbus time registers returning fixed values > • Fix for value setting on "External Contactor" > • Fix for not being able to enable Grid support thru Insight Facility > • Fix for Aux Relay Time of Day Trigger not working issue > • Fix for Low Battery Cut out Warning Offset setting issue > • Fix for manual refresh causing XW parameters changes issue > • Fix for secondary XW Pro going back into grid forming when in standby > mode > • Improvement for exported PDF file format > • Fix for TPM test failure issue > 2 Conext™ Gateway Release Notes > Internal > • Improvement for WATTNODE device status page > • Change IEC 61727-2014 grid code name to IEC 61727-2004 > Summary of new supported batteries: > • DISCOVER AES 44-48-3000 > • DISCOVER AES 42-48-6650 > • FortressPowerEvaultMax 18_5 > • DISCOVER HELIOS 46-48-1540 > • DISCOVER ELEMENT 48-48-5120 > • PYLONTECH UP5000 > • PYLONTECH US5000 > • PYLONTECH PELIO > • HOMEGRID MQ_1 > • HOMEGRID MQ_2 > • HOMEGRID MQ_3 > • HOMEGRID MQ_4 > • HOMEGRID MQ_5 > • HOMEGRID MQ_6 > • HOMEGRID MQ_7 > • HOMEGRID MQ_8 > • HOMEGRID COMPACT > • EG4-LifePower4 > • EG4-LL > • DEKA_DURATION_DD5300 > Known Limitations > • Analog and Digital I/O is not supported > • After downgrading an XW device, the gateway must be restarted > • Upgrading from v1.07 and earlier to v1.08 and later will cause the cloud > to be > disabled, requiring the user to re-enable the cloud via the Web UI > • The gateway does not have a web server trusted root certificate > • PDF Generation does not work correctly in Internet Explorer > • Temperature will not be shown in Battery Summary page if only MPPT device > installed BTS (Battery Temperature Sensor). > • Upgrade from old version to v1.18 may cause the BMS setup status change > from > “successful” to “modified”, re-apply it, or leave it alone. > • After changing or applying BMS setup, refreshing configuration is > required to > make the UI configuration match device value. > • AC coupled power flow on InsightCloud & InsightMobile will be coming > soon. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://offgridsolar1.com/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > On 2023-10-26 9:26 am, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi All, > Has anyone successfully implemented the new AC coupled monitoring function > using a Wattnode meter (Gateway firmware V1.18) so that it shows up on > Insight Cloud? I have been able to get it to display on Insight Local, but > not on the Cloud. I have spent perhaps 20-30 hours on getting this > function to work (working with Eric Bentsen as well as countless other > Schneider support personnel). I've been told that if it shows up on Insight > Local but not the Cloud, then that is an issue at Schneider's end. Now I'm > wondering if there is something about the oler Gateway (not a "Home" > device) which is causing this issue. Just wondering if anyone has been > successful at implementing this feature so that it shows up on the Cloud. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 13:15:42 2023 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 07:15:42 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Truss Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mahalo for your response Sam. That makes me feel a little better. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-39784 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 6:08 AM Sam Haraldson wrote: > James, > > I can think of one install I performed in 2017 that was a metal roof over > metal purlins and we opted to through-bolt the entire array using one > installer on a ladder inside and another on the roof. We employed butyl > mastic and large fender washers to attach a strut frame to the roof, and > then we installed traditional L-feet and rails atop the strut. I have zero > experience working with tile so I don't know what your best methodology is > there but I can attest that the through-bolting has held up well at that > site the past five years. > > Sincerely, > Sam Haraldson > > [image: OnSite Energy] > > > SAM HARALDSON > Field Operations Director > (406) 551-6135 > 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 > Locally owned and operated since 2012 > [image: B Corporation] > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Oct 26 15:05:50 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:05:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Truss Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James, I haven't had an application exactly as you describe with a tile roof / plywood deck over metal trusses. However, we have installed systems with metal roof support structures many times. Metal self-drilling screws have impressive pullouts, so you might be able to use them with any sort of mount that you want that works with the tiles you have on site. We have used ELCO screws in the past, and they are now part of the DeWalt brands, but here is an example: https://anchors.dewalt.com/anchors/products/screw-fasteners/ and a Drill-Flex example: https://anchors.dewalt.com/anchors/_documents/uploads/DWANF_DrilFlex-TP-EN-rA_DDS1.pdf?1698346503 Some of these fasteners are completely self drilling while others require a pilot hole. Best, August Luminalt On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:17 AM James Rudolph via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Mahalo for your response Sam. That makes me feel a little better. > > > James B. Rudolph > > > Independent Energy > > C-39784 ES #10816 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 > > C. 808.313.9701 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 6:08 AM Sam Haraldson > wrote: > >> James, >> >> I can think of one install I performed in 2017 that was a metal roof over >> metal purlins and we opted to through-bolt the entire array using one >> installer on a ladder inside and another on the roof. We employed butyl >> mastic and large fender washers to attach a strut frame to the roof, and >> then we installed traditional L-feet and rails atop the strut. I have zero >> experience working with tile so I don't know what your best methodology is >> there but I can attest that the through-bolting has held up well at that >> site the past five years. >> >> Sincerely, >> Sam Haraldson >> >> [image: OnSite Energy] >> >> >> SAM HARALDSON >> Field Operations Director >> (406) 551-6135 >> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >> [image: B Corporation] >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Thu Oct 26 19:43:24 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 19:43:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] APsmart and charge controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e601da0866$363ec260$a2bc4720$@mindspring.com> Brad We have used these products often, but in Hybrid applications Really need to use their device to activate them. Can be powered by the back up loads panel or main in an off grid panel, just need to have a disconnect in line. The key is all the negative wires have to go through their ct’s and yes it needs 120 volts We have gone through lots of gyrations with these folk and yes the customer support is extremely hard to understand but if run properly works fine. Peter ASAE From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2023 10:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Bradley Bassett Subject: [RE-wrenches] APsmart and charge controllers I had a talk with tech support at APS about using the APSmart RSD devices in my DC coupled system. I found it hard to understand him so I'm not completely clear on what he said. One thing was clear and that is they do not test these for use with charge controllers, so can't support that use. Other than that I think he said that they require a certain amount of resistance on the power lines to stay powered up. He said that it would not likely stay powered up when connected directly to a battery bank, and would not stay powered up on an open circuit. What I ran into using 2 strings of 4 modules in series is in low light they would turn on, voltage would rise to open circuit voltage, then collapse back to 0. The charge controller would turn on when the voltage rose and turn off when the voltage fell. Repeat over and over. When full sun was on the array it would stay connected, but operated at a voltage indicating one each APS was not turned on in each string. I now have Fireraptors on the array which of course works fine. But what a lot of wire to deal with. Also note that the Fireraptors work fine powered up with 15 volts instead of the specified 24 volts. Has anyone successfully used these with any charge controllers? Brad Bassett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 09:25:54 2023 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:25:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Hi all, Changing the Gen Input mode to Support did the trick! Thanks for the advice! Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Oct 26, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > This may be far fetched but I have encountered good voltage & low amperage = no amperage from solar arrays that baffled me on T/S on others systems & ultimately: > We had voltage & low output amperage to no amperage. > Turns out there was a junction box that had been forgotten about in the crawl space with never tightened split bolts that were crispy black from arcing. > There was enough contact for voltage readings & not enough for any amps to flow. > Double check all connections? > > ___________________________________________________ > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Fri Oct 27 11:02:16 2023 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 15:02:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aging Batteries In-Reply-To: <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I installed my off-grid system in 2008. It’s 24 V using 2 V industrial FLA batteries. As you can imagine after 15 years the capacity of my battery bank is significantly less than it used to be. For logistic reasons, I won’t be able to replace them till around June of next year, but it’s not even into winter yet and my generator is already running every day. Does anyone have any tips on how to get through the winter on these batteries while minimizing generator run time? I’ve got two FM80’s with 3.8 kW of PV, two VFX3524 inverters, and a Kohler RES12 generator. I haven’t changed any settings since I installed the system. Thanks, Will ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Oct 27 11:01:51 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:01:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging: Support mode In-Reply-To: <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Can anyone explain why changing to Support mode on the generator input boosts battery charging amps? The Radian manual explanation for Support mode gives no clue about this "fix". It only states that Support mode will allow batteries to provide extra power to loads if demand exceeds max. gen programmed input amps. I also have an offgrid Radian seeming to undercharge from a genny, and I just changed its input mode to Support to see what happens. On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 9:28 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Changing the Gen Input mode to Support did the trick! Thanks for the > advice! > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Oct 26, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > This may be far fetched but I have encountered good voltage & low amperage > = no amperage from solar arrays that baffled me on T/S on others systems & > ultimately: > We had voltage & low output amperage to no amperage. > Turns out there was a junction box that had been forgotten about in the > crawl space with never tightened split bolts that were crispy black from > arcing. > There was enough contact for voltage readings & not enough for any amps to > flow. > Double check all connections? > > ___________________________________________________ > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 11:20:30 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:20:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aging Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, Will This is a hack trick but it can work as long as you don't have failed cells, bring the static voltage up to 26 by adding just one battery, this might be easier on the logistics issue. By doing this you will in the end sacrifice the additional Battery but increasing the static voltage will also increase it under load and reduce the run time of the genny, you will also want to increase the charge voltage settings to accommodate the higher voltage. Yes it's a hack but can help get you through the winter. Fun times On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 8:03 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I installed my off-grid system in 2008. It’s 24 V using 2 V industrial FLA > batteries. As you can imagine after 15 years the capacity of my battery > bank is significantly less than it used to be. > > > > For logistic reasons, I won’t be able to replace them till around June of > next year, but it’s not even into winter yet and my generator is already > running every day. > > > > Does anyone have any tips on how to get through the winter on these > batteries while minimizing generator run time? I’ve got two FM80’s with 3.8 > kW of PV, two VFX3524 inverters, and a Kohler RES12 generator. I haven’t > changed any settings since I installed the system. > > > Thanks, > > Will > ------------------------------ > > Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If > you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying > to the sender and delete this message. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 11:25:27 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 09:25:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aging Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Will, I'd keep inching the start voltage down and see if it helps. Sometimes old batteries just operate at a lower voltage and will sag more under load but they will still carry the load OK Of course you can: 1. Do all of your high power stuff when the sun is out. 2. Disable the generator start at night and see where the voltage goes by morning, perhaps a load kicks on and the voltage is sagging enough to kick on the generator from voltage. It helps if you can plot the voltage over night to see what is happening. (Victron battery monitors are really cool for this). 3. Load starting can help limit overall run time. Sometimes you can do inventive things with Quiet time that will limit generator starting. Not sure what inverter system you have. On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 9:03 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I installed my off-grid system in 2008. It’s 24 V using 2 V industrial FLA > batteries. As you can imagine after 15 years the capacity of my battery > bank is significantly less than it used to be. > > > > For logistic reasons, I won’t be able to replace them till around June of > next year, but it’s not even into winter yet and my generator is already > running every day. > > > > Does anyone have any tips on how to get through the winter on these > batteries while minimizing generator run time? I’ve got two FM80’s with 3.8 > kW of PV, two VFX3524 inverters, and a Kohler RES12 generator. I haven’t > changed any settings since I installed the system. > > > Thanks, > > Will > ------------------------------ > > Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If > you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying > to the sender and delete this message. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 11:49:49 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:49:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aging Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Will, At the risk of being overly simplistic and obvious, have you kept good specific gravity records over the years? Are they showing lowered or uneven readings? I've often been able to get some more life out of flooded batteries by raising the charge and equalize voltages, particularly if these are Rolls 2- volts. I've been known to run the bulk charge as high as 31 sometimes and equalize up to 32 with longer run times (2.5 - 3 hours) for off grid, assuming that there aren't any particularly weak cells. You can also do a simple load test on each individual battery and if you find a very weak or dead one, taking it out of the string often improves capacity (if you've already tried recovering it through extra charging). Of course, you would would need to adjust the inverter and CC settings appropriately. Which model of 2-volts are these? Again, sorry if this is all too obvious for you. Just getting back to basics. Good luck, Howie On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 11:27 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Will, > > I'd keep inching the start voltage down and see if it helps. Sometimes > old batteries just operate at a lower voltage and will sag more under load > but they will still carry the load OK > > Of course you can: > 1. Do all of your high power stuff when the sun is out. > 2. Disable the generator start at night and see where the voltage goes by > morning, perhaps a load kicks on and the voltage is sagging enough to kick > on the generator from voltage. It helps if you can plot the voltage over > night to see what is happening. (Victron battery monitors are really cool > for this). > 3. Load starting can help limit overall run time. > > Sometimes you can do inventive things with Quiet time that will limit > generator starting. Not sure what inverter system you have. > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 9:03 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> >> >> I installed my off-grid system in 2008. It’s 24 V using 2 V industrial >> FLA batteries. As you can imagine after 15 years the capacity of my battery >> bank is significantly less than it used to be. >> >> >> >> For logistic reasons, I won’t be able to replace them till around June of >> next year, but it’s not even into winter yet and my generator is already >> running every day. >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any tips on how to get through the winter on these >> batteries while minimizing generator run time? I’ve got two FM80’s with 3.8 >> kW of PV, two VFX3524 inverters, and a Kohler RES12 generator. I haven’t >> changed any settings since I installed the system. >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Will >> ------------------------------ >> >> Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. >> If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by >> replying to the sender and delete this message. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 13:40:54 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 12:40:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: You have had many good suggestions but note you are on border line power, at 2200 teet your power is down 10% note gen's are 80% of name plate, and you are asking for 7.2 kW from a Genny that with atmospheric correction is 7.2 kW On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 8:27 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > Changing the Gen Input mode to Support did the trick! Thanks for the > advice! > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Oct 26, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > This may be far fetched but I have encountered good voltage & low amperage > = no amperage from solar arrays that baffled me on T/S on others systems & > ultimately: > We had voltage & low output amperage to no amperage. > Turns out there was a junction box that had been forgotten about in the > crawl space with never tightened split bolts that were crispy black from > arcing. > There was enough contact for voltage readings & not enough for any amps to > flow. > Double check all connections? > > ___________________________________________________ > Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 16:51:51 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 14:51:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian Generator Charging In-Reply-To: References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1C42ECFE-4AF0-4F54-A5B3-06ACA273B6B8@gmail.com> What I don’t understand is that the inverter was limiting amps while the generator was not. If the generator wasn’t able to produce the power, then it would have had the usual issues which causes the inverter to drop it and then reconnect. But that wasn’t happening so it appears the generator is doing fine. Its 3% per 1000, and the variables of density altitude are: temperature, humidity, air pressure, elevation. I don’t understand why the generator support would allow for higher amps as well? jay > On Oct 27, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > You have had many good suggestions but note you are on border line power, at 2200 teet your power is down 10% note gen's are 80% of name plate, and you are asking for 7.2 kW from a Genny that with atmospheric correction is 7.2 kW > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 8:27 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi all, > > Changing the Gen Input mode to Support did the trick! Thanks for the advice! > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On Oct 26, 2023, at 9:16 AM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches > wrote: >> >> This may be far fetched but I have encountered good voltage & low amperage = no amperage from solar arrays that baffled me on T/S on others systems & ultimately: >> We had voltage & low output amperage to no amperage. >> Turns out there was a junction box that had been forgotten about in the crawl space with never tightened split bolts that were crispy black from arcing. >> There was enough contact for voltage readings & not enough for any amps to flow. >> Double check all connections? >> >> ___________________________________________________ >> Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e – dana at solarwork.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 17:06:53 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 15:06:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aging Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <6A9E7DE4-1D0E-48F6-BFCE-F84DF84DF1F7@gmail.com> <6539ab98.0c0a0220.94be5.ddb4@mx.google.com> <008501da080e$9811f910$c835eb30$@solarwork.com> <6151DC75-7A34-4975-8F0C-495FC71D5AD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8B68ED27-0691-4C8B-9B35-4E581B4A56B9@gmail.com> I have had a much different experience with older batteries. 1. check the SG and volts under load like at night. And see if there are any weak ones. Since you have 2v cells you can afford to lose a few. 2. If they all check out more or less equal, and i’m guessing that they are using lots of water, then I lower the charge volts, and/or absorb time. Because the internal chemistry is dying and in my experience going higher volts ( unless its a sulphation issue) just creates more heat, and hydrogen gas with greater risk of issues, and more water use and mess. Its not going to fix the chemistry. 3. lower the LBCO all the way down and if using AGS then lower the volts on that to and also reduce the run time/abosrb time. Good luck, Jay > On Oct 27, 2023, at 9:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hey Will, > > At the risk of being overly simplistic and obvious, have you kept good specific gravity records over the years? Are they showing lowered or uneven readings? I've often been able to get some more life out of flooded batteries by raising the charge and equalize voltages, particularly if these are Rolls 2- volts. I've been known to run the bulk charge as high as 31 sometimes and equalize up to 32 with longer run times (2.5 - 3 hours) for off grid, assuming that there aren't any particularly weak cells. > > You can also do a simple load test on each individual battery and if you find a very weak or dead one, taking it out of the string often improves capacity (if you've already tried recovering it through extra charging). Of course, you would would need to adjust the inverter and CC settings appropriately. > > Which model of 2-volts are these? > > Again, sorry if this is all too obvious for you. Just getting back to basics. > > Good luck, > Howie > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 11:27 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hi Will, > > I'd keep inching the start voltage down and see if it helps. Sometimes old batteries just operate at a lower voltage and will sag more under load but they will still carry the load OK > > Of course you can: > 1. Do all of your high power stuff when the sun is out. > 2. Disable the generator start at night and see where the voltage goes by morning, perhaps a load kicks on and the voltage is sagging enough to kick on the generator from voltage. It helps if you can plot the voltage over night to see what is happening. (Victron battery monitors are really cool for this). > 3. Load starting can help limit overall run time. > > Sometimes you can do inventive things with Quiet time that will limit generator starting. Not sure what inverter system you have. > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 9:03 AM White, Will via RE-wrenches > wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > > > I installed my off-grid system in 2008. It’s 24 V using 2 V industrial FLA batteries. As you can imagine after 15 years the capacity of my battery bank is significantly less than it used to be. > > > > For logistic reasons, I won’t be able to replace them till around June of next year, but it’s not even into winter yet and my generator is already running every day. > > > > Does anyone have any tips on how to get through the winter on these batteries while minimizing generator run time? I’ve got two FM80’s with 3.8 kW of PV, two VFX3524 inverters, and a Kohler RES12 generator. I haven’t changed any settings since I installed the system. > > > Thanks, > > Will > > Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Fri Oct 27 20:11:19 2023 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 17:11:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discoloring Solar World panels References: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 253428 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Oct 28 16:12:24 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:12:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discoloring Solar World panels In-Reply-To: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19@yahoo.com> References: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19.ref@yahoo.com> <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <051101da09db$11c14ea0$3543ebe0$@solarwork.com> Reminds me of early Carillo Muds, Bronzes, & Golds from back in the '80s. These modules were affected by reflectors as I remember. I had 60 - bronzes on my house in Washinton in '88. They worked but it took a lot of them. Lots of racking OMG. ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discoloring Solar World panels Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 18:11:19 -0600 Size: 353644 URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 28 16:10:53 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 13:10:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling Message-ID: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I think this definition needs to be clarified. Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope these diagrams come through): A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* AC coupled. Here is an AC-coupled system: What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. Do we have consensus on this definition? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2648 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oledata.mso Type: application/octet-stream Size: 40680 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 10101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.emz Type: application/octet-stream Size: 5493 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 31903 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Oct 28 16:22:59 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 16:22:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree totally with your drawings. On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 4:17 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the > understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I > think this definition needs to be clarified. > > > > Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope > these diagrams come through): > > > > > > A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* > AC coupled. > > > > Here is an AC-coupled system: > > > > > > What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending > power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery > inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require > careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. > > > > Do we have consensus on this definition? > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 10101 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 31903 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 16:57:59 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 14:57:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Sat Oct 28 17:00:24 2023 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 11:00:24 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <21A42FAB-0B7D-41E0-95D5-82D8167B05CA@renewablenergy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 17:13:07 2023 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 17:13:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: <21A42FAB-0B7D-41E0-95D5-82D8167B05CA@renewablenergy.com> References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> <21A42FAB-0B7D-41E0-95D5-82D8167B05CA@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: And just to muddy the waters a little, 2023 NEC uses AC Connected and DC connected wording in place of coupled. Same concept, new name. On Sat, Oct 28, 2023 at 5:01 PM Roland - RES via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Agreed and we'll understand the differences, all of our SMA SI systems > utilize both dc charging and AC coupled charging. > > > Roland Shackelford > > President / Owner > > NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 > > Office 808.775.7410 > > Mobile 808.938.9239 > > Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. > > > " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, > there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 10:17 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the > understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I > think this definition needs to be clarified. > > > > Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope > these diagrams come through): > > > > > > > > A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* > AC coupled. > > > > Here is an AC-coupled system: > > > > > > > > What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending > power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery > inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require > careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. > > > > Do we have consensus on this definition? > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Oct 28 23:49:17 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 20:49:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay: I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and frequency before it can start up. How else could this work? I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output. All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. Here is more information from each of the manufacturers: Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen input to an output and make that your connection point. “*A full AC coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is limited.”* EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online. There is an EG4 inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video . Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual*: It is forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. *That is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled battery charging. I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. This is a work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can. When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this article. There are limited advantages to AC coupling: · AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. · AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this. In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is a crude affair. I am not a fan. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling I’m going to both agree and disagree Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is correct. Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac coupling into the inverter directly. Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not designed for ac coupling. Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works with newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. Jay On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I think this definition needs to be clarified. Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope these diagrams come through): A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* AC coupled. Here is an AC-coupled system: What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. Do we have consensus on this definition? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 01:14:46 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:14:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the any DC side connection. Funtimes On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay: > > > > I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate > with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter > AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and > frequency before it can start up. How else could this work? > > > > I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look to > you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming > the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output. All of the > manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. Here is more information > from each of the manufacturers: > > > > Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen > input to an output and make that your connection point. “*A full AC > coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is > limited.”* > > > > EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online. There is an EG4 > inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the > Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an output. The > EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed > level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. The manual is > pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video > . > > > > Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input for > AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual*: It is > forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. *That is > because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. > > > > So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery > inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an > output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of > AC-coupled battery charging. > > > > I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the > battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift > the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. This is a > work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these systems it is > pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage. These > systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge > controller can. > > > > When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain > conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this > article. > > > > There are limited advantages to AC coupling: > > > > · AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. > This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. > > > > · AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that > has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most > batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, > so I would hesitate to recommend this. > > > > In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters > is a crude affair. I am not a fan. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > > > I’m going to both agree and disagree > > > > Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is > correct. > > > > Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac > coupling into the inverter directly. > > Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. > > > > And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not > designed for ac coupling. > > Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any > internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. > > > > Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works with > newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While > creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the > understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I > think this definition needs to be clarified. > > > > Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope > these diagrams come through): > > > > > > > > A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* > AC coupled. > > > > Here is an AC-coupled system: > > > > > > > > What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending > power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery > inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require > careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. > > > > Do we have consensus on this definition? > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 01:20:26 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:20:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discoloring Solar World panels In-Reply-To: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19@yahoo.com> References: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19.ref@yahoo.com> <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Are you 100% sure there was not a difference when new. I have seen different colors with sharps way back when out of the box, solarworld with some b on b had different shades so unles it's getting hotter then it may be best to monitor and watch over time, it's not like you can call solarworld and get help. Funtimes On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 5:11 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Dear Amazing Wrenchs, > > A client of ours just sent us a photo of a system we installed a while ago > using SolarWorld 300 panels. He, and now I, am concerned about the > discoloration. Thoughts??? > > [image: image0.jpeg] > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > *President* > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* > *The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > *Since 1987,** helping you and your Portland neighbors move** towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > > *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 253428 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sun Oct 29 11:56:15 2023 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 11:56:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discoloring Solar World panels In-Reply-To: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19@yahoo.com> References: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19.ref@yahoo.com> <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004b01da0a80$72d452a0$587cf7e0$@mindspring.com> Andrew Saw your picture and had a few thoughts. I recall from time to time colour differences in some of the SW panels ( we used to install lots of them ). Also in following with the previous weeks stream, maybe cleaning them would lessen the differences. Thx Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, October 27, 2023 8:11 PM To: Wrenches Cc: Solar Energy Solutions Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discoloring Solar World panels Dear Amazing Wrenchs, A client of ours just sent us a photo of a system we installed a while ago using SolarWorld 300 panels. He, and now I, am concerned about the discoloration. Thoughts??? Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 253428 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Oct 29 13:14:13 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:14:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question Message-ID: My Radian GS 8048 intermittently will connect to the grid to charge batteries. The grid voltage seems to run high around here. Yesterday, it wouldn't connect. The grid voltage was at 251 V. Later it did connect. At that point the grid was at 246 V. I am suspecting that the Radian has a voltage acceptance limit of 250 V. Is that true? Is it possible to open up the window? If that isn't it, what could be the problem? Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 15:45:02 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:45:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3C59BA16-1A38-47B0-BCF4-CD04895897C6@gmail.com> Hi drake The early mate 3 has a glitch which I think they changed in the 3s. You e got to set the rebulk volts above what you want it to charge at. IE if the battery volts don’t get below the rebulk volts it won’t charge. So if your shallow cycling the batteries it’s common it won’t get below the rebulk volts. If you’re deep cycling it usually will with default settings The default high voltage window for ac input is default at 140v. Hope this helps Jay > On Oct 29, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > My Radian GS 8048 intermittently will connect to the grid to charge batteries. The grid voltage seems to run high around here. Yesterday, it wouldn't connect. The grid voltage was at 251 V. Later it did connect. At that point the grid was at 246 V. > > I am suspecting that the Radian has a voltage acceptance limit of 250 V. Is that true? Is it possible to open up the window? > > If that isn't it, what could be the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sun Oct 29 17:19:24 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 21:19:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said "This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging." I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get to those below. When you say that the battery inverters "weren't originally designed for this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based inverters 25 years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They weren't "originally" designed for it. But that was then and this is now. Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you can't wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV input... that being said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just critiquing the wiring diagram in the original post to say that it wires up differently, so I'd say that you are both right on this one. That said, I don't think anyone says you have to wire it into the gen port, I think that even with the hybrid inverters, the way in William's original post is still a fully acceptable way to do it. I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair amount and I have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with Lithium and with Lead Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and Victron, but I have some experience with Schneider as well. These systems have been working really well for a good while, but that being said, Schneider had some real problems at first (major headache). Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but I'm starting to try them out. I have not tested AC coupling with any of them yet. I was at a conference less than a year ago and one of the major brands was saying that there is no hybrid inverter that supports both AC coupled PV and a generator at the same time for a grid tied system. They said "you can't have it all." There may be an exception to that, I've never looked into it, but with the Victron and Outback (and probably Scheider... IDK) it's easy to have it all. I've done it and it works well in every mode. The frequency changes super fast and assuming you have a properly programmed rule 21 compliant Grid tied inverter, it responds very quickly, and in the systems I've monitored, the frequency never had to go above 62 Hz, which is good enough for most sensitive loads. The inverters are totally designed for this these days, but if you have highly sensitive loads, then it may not work well. Considerations... First of all, I will be assuming that you are using quality rule 21 grid-direct inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as the Outback Radian or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow in changing their frequency, and special considerations had to be accounted for because of that, but I heard that was fixed a while ago. You had to reduce the charging voltages to account for the delayed throttling, but I can attest that even in the early days, Outback never had this problem, and Victron works smoothly as well. The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or prolonged power outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark start). Simply put, if your battery gets low and the battery inverter turns off, then your PV can't charge the battery. This problem is lessened when you connect the PV Grid Direct inverters to a dedicated output on the inverter so that the loads shut down while the battery is still a few percent above the inverter shutdown level. That is a nice advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't know if the Hybrid inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this little safety net, the inverter can still discharge the battery to the point where the inverter turns off and you have a problem. My solution is that you should have at least a little bit of the PV DC coupled so that when the sun comes out, the voltage will rise and the inverter will turn on. This is also recommended in Victron's AC Coupling manual. The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery based inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full PV power. Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, whichever is lower) does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter (no more than 10kW of power from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback recommends no more than 6 kW of Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian (so that's 75% of the battery inverter's power). In some circumstances, this could demand upsizing the battery inverter, which is another great reason to DC couple half of the PV and AC couple the other half... because then you could effectively have more PV with less battery based inverter, depending on your loads. As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with an AC coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron has been really leading the way with integrating with other PV grid-tied inverters so that you can monitor them through Victron's own monitoring. This depends on the brand you are connecting to, but most of these brands have a way to get this information via TCP/IP, and if so, Victron will read that and report it on their own website, in their app, and on their touchscreen. With some brands, you can even see the error codes etc. remotely through Victron's monitoring. It almost makes it seamless as though it was all one brand. So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but these days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not all of which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) www.distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM To: William Miller ; RE-wrenches Cc: Jerry Shafer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the any DC side connection. Funtimes On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jay: I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and frequency before it can start up. How else could this work? I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output. All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. Here is more information from each of the manufacturers: Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen input to an output and make that your connection point. “A full AC coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is limited.” EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online. There is an EG4 inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video. Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual: It is forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. That is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled battery charging. I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. This is a work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can. When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this article. There are limited advantages to AC coupling: • AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. • AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this. In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is a crude affair. I am not a fan. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling I’m going to both agree and disagree Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is correct. Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac coupling into the inverter directly. Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not designed for ac coupling. Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works with newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. Jay On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Friends: I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I think this definition needs to be clarified. Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope these diagrams come through): A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is not AC coupled. Here is an AC-coupled system: What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending power backwards through a battery inverter. This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. Do we have consensus on this definition? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Oct 30 09:57:42 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:57:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <3C59BA16-1A38-47B0-BCF4-CD04895897C6@gmail.com> References: <3C59BA16-1A38-47B0-BCF4-CD04895897C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, The inverter won't even connect to the grid. It stays in the state where it is sampling the grid, AC in light blinking. Is the default high voltage for the nominal 240 V 280? (IE 140 V X 2). Thanks for your help. Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-10-29 15:45, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi drake > > The early mate 3 has a glitch which I think they changed in the 3s. > > You e got to set the rebulk volts above what you want it to charge at. > > IE if the battery volts don't get below the rebulk volts it won't charge. > > So if your shallow cycling the batteries it's common it won't get below the rebulk volts. If you're deep cycling it usually will with default settings > > The default high voltage window for ac input is default at 140v. > > Hope this helps > > Jay > >> On Oct 29, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> My Radian GS 8048 intermittently will connect to the grid to charge batteries. The grid voltage seems to run high around here. Yesterday, it wouldn't connect. The grid voltage was at 251 V. Later it did connect. At that point the grid was at 246 V. >> >> I am suspecting that the Radian has a voltage acceptance limit of 250 V. Is that true? Is it possible to open up the window? >> >> If that isn't it, what could be the problem? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> _Drake Chamberlin_ >> >> _Athens Electric LLC_ >> >> _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ >> >> _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 30 10:32:39 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:32:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to modern equipment that talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude algorithms for throttling PV don't seem particularly confidence-inspiring. This is one argument for sticking with a single manufacturer system architecture (i.e. Enphase). While there are obvious downsides and limitations to that, the system should work safely and flawlessly in an AC Coupled scenario. With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. For example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the MPPT inputs are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not easily achieved. So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC couple. But this system has a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to be on the AC load output, meaning it will not be monitored by the Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's nice to have that flexibility. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > William, > > My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said > > "This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. > These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging." > > > I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you > mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations > are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get > to those below. > > > > > > When you say that the battery inverters "weren't *originally* designed > for this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based > inverters 25 years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They > weren't "originally" designed for it. But that was then and this is now. > > > > > > Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you > can't wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV input... > that being said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just critiquing the > wiring diagram in the original post to say that it wires up differently, so > I'd say that you are both right on this one. That said, I don't think > anyone says you have to wire it into the gen port, I think that even with > the hybrid inverters, the way in William's original post is still a fully > acceptable way to do it. > > > > I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair amount > and I have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with Lithium and > with Lead Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and Victron, but I > have some experience with Schneider as well. These systems have been > working really well for a good while, but that being said, Schneider had > some real problems at first (major headache). > > > Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but I'm > starting to try them out. I have not tested AC coupling with any of them > yet. I was at a conference less than a year ago and one of the major brands > was saying that there is no hybrid inverter that supports both AC coupled > PV and a generator at the same time for a grid tied system. They said "you > can't have it all." There may be an exception to that, I've never looked > into it, but with the Victron and Outback (and probably Scheider... IDK) > it's easy to have it all. I've done it and it works well in every mode. The > frequency changes super fast and assuming you have a properly programmed > rule 21 compliant Grid tied inverter, it responds very quickly, and in the > systems I've monitored, the frequency never had to go above 62 Hz, which is > good enough for most sensitive loads. The inverters are totally designed > for this these days, but if you have highly sensitive loads, then it may > not work well. > > > > *Considerations...* > First of all, I will be assuming that you are using quality rule 21 > grid-direct inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as the > Outback Radian or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow in > changing their frequency, and special considerations had to be accounted > for because of that, but I heard that was fixed a while ago. You had to > reduce the charging voltages to account for the delayed throttling, but I > can attest that even in the early days, Outback never had this problem, and > Victron works smoothly as well. > > The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or prolonged > power outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark start). Simply > put, if your battery gets low and the battery inverter turns off, then your > PV can't charge the battery. This problem is lessened when you connect the > PV Grid Direct inverters to a dedicated output on the inverter so that the > loads shut down while the battery is still a few percent above the inverter > shutdown level. That is a nice advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't > know if the Hybrid inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this > little safety net, the inverter can still discharge the battery to the > point where the inverter turns off and you have a problem. My solution is > that you should have at least a little bit of the PV DC coupled so that > when the sun comes out, the voltage will rise and the inverter will turn > on. This is also recommended in Victron's AC Coupling manual. > > The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery > based inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full PV > power. Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, whichever is > lower) does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter (no more than > 10kW of power from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback recommends no more > than 6 kW of Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian (so that's 75% of the > battery inverter's power). In some circumstances, this could demand > upsizing the battery inverter, which is another great reason to DC couple > half of the PV and AC couple the other half... because then you could > effectively have more PV with less battery based inverter, depending on > your loads. > > As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with an > AC coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron has been > really leading the way with integrating with other PV grid-tied inverters > so that you can monitor them through Victron's own monitoring. This depends > on the brand you are connecting to, but most of these brands have a way to > get this information via TCP/IP, and if so, Victron will read that and > report it on their own website, in their app, and on their touchscreen. > With some brands, you can even see the error codes etc. remotely through > Victron's monitoring. It almost makes it seamless as though it was all one > brand. > > So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but > these days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not > all of which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system. > > Thanks, > Kienan > > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution* > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* > *www.distribution.solar* > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM > *To:* William Miller ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Jerry Shafer > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with > outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and > charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a > genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the > any DC side connection. > Funtimes > > On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay: > > > > I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate > with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter > AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and > frequency before it can start up. How else could this work? > > > > I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look to > you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming > the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output. All of the > manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. Here is more information > from each of the manufacturers: > > > > Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen > input to an output and make that your connection point. “*A full AC > coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is > limited.”* > > > > EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online. There is an EG4 > inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the > Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an output. The > EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed > level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. The manual is > pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video > . > > > > Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input for > AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual*: It is > forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. *That is > because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. > > > > So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery > inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an > output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of > AC-coupled battery charging. > > > > I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the > battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift > the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. This is a > work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these systems it is > pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage. These > systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge > controller can. > > > > When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain > conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this > article. > > > > There are limited advantages to AC coupling: > > > > · AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. > This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. > > > > · AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that > has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most > batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, > so I would hesitate to recommend this. > > > > In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters > is a crude affair. I am not a fan. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > > > I’m going to both agree and disagree > > > > Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is > correct. > > > > Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac > coupling into the inverter directly. > > Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. > > > > And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not > designed for ac coupling. > > Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any > internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. > > > > Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works with > newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While > creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the > understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I > think this definition needs to be clarified. > > > > Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope > these diagrams come through): > > > > > > > > A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* > AC coupled. > > > > Here is an AC-coupled system: > > > > > > > > What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending > power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery > inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require > careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. > > > > Do we have consensus on this definition? > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 30 10:35:40 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:35:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discoloring Solar World panels In-Reply-To: References: <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19.ref@yahoo.com> <2570CEB1-97F1-43F4-952A-75FD68C0BD19@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have the same question as Jerry. It's not brand-specific, either. We have had panels from various manufacturers over the years where we installed them, and clients noticed a difference in color/look/reflectivity from day one essentially. Sometimes, it's just the angle you are looking at them. We have replaced modules from time to time to "fix" this problem, which isn't a performance issue but an aesthetic one. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 12:23 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > Are you 100% sure there was not a difference when new. I have seen > different colors with sharps way back when out of the box, solarworld with > some b on b had different shades so unles it's getting hotter then it may > be best to monitor and watch over time, it's not like you can call > solarworld and get help. > Funtimes > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2023, 5:11 PM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Dear Amazing Wrenchs, >> >> A client of ours just sent us a photo of a system we installed a while >> ago using SolarWorld 300 panels. He, and now I, am concerned about the >> discoloration. Thoughts??? >> >> [image: image0.jpeg] >> >> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* >> *President* >> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* >> *The BRIGHT CHOICE* >> >> *Since 1987,** helping you and your Portland neighbors move** towards an >> environmentally sustainable future.* >> >> *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com >> * >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 30 10:41:24 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:41:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Truss Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree that you can get impressive pull-out resistance from fasteners in plywood decking only. Two brands that publish pull-out values are OMG/Drill-Tec and Blazer. The #15 OMG screws are what we lean toward. John Mansville also has a "High Load Fastener," but I think it's just a rebranded OMG. It comes in #14, #15, and even #21. They have published pull-out values that are really high. If you use a base plate with 4 fasteners with a 3x safety factor, you still get enormous pull-out values. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 2:06 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi James, > > I haven't had an application exactly as you describe with a tile roof / > plywood deck over metal trusses. However, we have installed systems with > metal roof support structures many times. Metal self-drilling screws have > impressive pullouts, so you might be able to use them with any sort of > mount that you want that works with the tiles you have on site. We have > used ELCO screws in the past, and they are now part of the DeWalt brands, > but here is an example: > > https://anchors.dewalt.com/anchors/products/screw-fasteners/ > > and a Drill-Flex example: > > > https://anchors.dewalt.com/anchors/_documents/uploads/DWANF_DrilFlex-TP-EN-rA_DDS1.pdf?1698346503 > > Some of these fasteners are completely self drilling while others require > a pilot hole. > > Best, > > August > Luminalt > > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:17 AM James Rudolph via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Mahalo for your response Sam. That makes me feel a little better. >> >> >> James B. Rudolph >> >> >> Independent Energy >> >> C-39784 ES #10816 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 >> >> C. 808.313.9701 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 6:08 AM Sam Haraldson >> wrote: >> >>> James, >>> >>> I can think of one install I performed in 2017 that was a metal roof >>> over metal purlins and we opted to through-bolt the entire array using one >>> installer on a ladder inside and another on the roof. We employed butyl >>> mastic and large fender washers to attach a strut frame to the roof, and >>> then we installed traditional L-feet and rails atop the strut. I have zero >>> experience working with tile so I don't know what your best methodology is >>> there but I can attest that the through-bolting has held up well at that >>> site the past five years. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Sam Haraldson >>> >>> [image: OnSite Energy] >>> >>> >>> SAM HARALDSON >>> Field Operations Director >>> (406) 551-6135 >>> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >>> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >>> [image: B Corporation] >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iesbatteries at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 10:53:10 2023 From: iesbatteries at gmail.com (Daryl DeJoy) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 10:53:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metal Truss Roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have used Marutek molybdenum self tapping screws successfully for the past fifteen years in the Bahamas on metal truss roofs. On the East Coat, Manasquan Fasteners is our go-to fastener company. Daryl DeJoy On Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 10:46 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I agree that you can get impressive pull-out resistance from fasteners in > plywood decking only. Two brands that publish pull-out values are > OMG/Drill-Tec and Blazer. The #15 OMG screws are what we lean toward. > > John Mansville also has a "High Load Fastener," but I think it's just a > rebranded OMG. It comes in #14, #15, and even #21. They have published > pull-out values that are really high. If you use a base plate with 4 > fasteners with a 3x safety factor, you still get enormous pull-out values. > > Jason Szumlanski > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 2:06 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi James, >> >> I haven't had an application exactly as you describe with a tile roof / >> plywood deck over metal trusses. However, we have installed systems with >> metal roof support structures many times. Metal self-drilling screws have >> impressive pullouts, so you might be able to use them with any sort of >> mount that you want that works with the tiles you have on site. We have >> used ELCO screws in the past, and they are now part of the DeWalt brands, >> but here is an example: >> >> https://anchors.dewalt.com/anchors/products/screw-fasteners/ >> >> and a Drill-Flex example: >> >> >> https://anchors.dewalt.com/anchors/_documents/uploads/DWANF_DrilFlex-TP-EN-rA_DDS1.pdf?1698346503 >> >> Some of these fasteners are completely self drilling while others require >> a pilot hole. >> >> Best, >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 10:17 AM James Rudolph via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Mahalo for your response Sam. That makes me feel a little better. >>> >>> >>> James B. Rudolph >>> >>> >>> Independent Energy >>> >>> C-39784 ES #10816 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 >>> >>> C. 808.313.9701 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 6:08 AM Sam Haraldson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> James, >>>> >>>> I can think of one install I performed in 2017 that was a metal roof >>>> over metal purlins and we opted to through-bolt the entire array using one >>>> installer on a ladder inside and another on the roof. We employed butyl >>>> mastic and large fender washers to attach a strut frame to the roof, and >>>> then we installed traditional L-feet and rails atop the strut. I have zero >>>> experience working with tile so I don't know what your best methodology is >>>> there but I can attest that the through-bolting has held up well at that >>>> site the past five years. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Sam Haraldson >>>> >>>> [image: OnSite Energy] >>>> >>>> >>>> SAM HARALDSON >>>> Field Operations Director >>>> (406) 551-6135 >>>> 1515 N. Rouse Ave Bozeman, MT 59715 >>>> Locally owned and operated since 2012 >>>> [image: B Corporation] >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Oct 30 11:37:54 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 08:37:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason: Thanks for contributing to this thread. I did not realize it would create so much interest. My main point is to establish a definition for AC-coupling, and I believe we do have consensus on that. The next question to ask is AC-coupling a good thing? You make the point that BMS systems protect lithium batteries from damage. They do so by shutting down, not correcting the problem. But what good is a system that shuts down? When that happens someone has to roll a truck to reset the system. We should not design outages into our systems. I spoke at length this weekend with a very knowledgeable member of this forum (thank you, sir) about closed loop. Their experience is that there were packet losses in the communications and when that occurred the system shut down. I am going to set up my first closed loop today and I hope I do not have the same experience. Traditional charge controllers may seem “crude” but they operate on real, measured values of voltage and current, values that are at the core of battery care. Modern charging systems seem to rely at least partially on sate of charge. State of charge is a calculated value that is notorious for being inaccurate and drifting more so over time. Every SOC scheme I know needs to be recalibrated frequently. The recalibration requires hitting certain charge parameters and if you can’t hit those you don’t recalibrate. I assumed that a BMS system provided within a lithium battery assembly by the manufacturer would be accurate. I spoke with a tech support person from a prominent LFP manufacturer at length recently and was told their BMS is not foolproof on calculating SOC. I am not confident that any of them are. I am new to lithium battery systems. It may be my inexperience talking, but it seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may make them unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully. I do not believe AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium batteries, or any battery. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2023 7:33 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to modern equipment that talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude algorithms for throttling PV don't seem particularly confidence-inspiring. This is one argument for sticking with a single manufacturer system architecture (i.e. Enphase). While there are obvious downsides and limitations to that, the system should work safely and flawlessly in an AC Coupled scenario. With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. For example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the MPPT inputs are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not easily achieved. So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC couple. But this system has a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to be on the AC load output, meaning it will not be monitored by the Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's nice to have that flexibility. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: William, My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said "This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging." I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get to those below. When you say that the battery inverters "weren't *originally* designed for this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based inverters 25 years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They weren't "originally" designed for it. But that was then and this is now. Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you can't wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV input... that being said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just critiquing the wiring diagram in the original post to say that it wires up differently, so I'd say that you are both right on this one. That said, I don't think anyone says you have to wire it into the gen port, I think that even with the hybrid inverters, the way in William's original post is still a fully acceptable way to do it. I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair amount and I have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with Lithium and with Lead Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and Victron, but I have some experience with Schneider as well. These systems have been working really well for a good while, but that being said, Schneider had some real problems at first (major headache). Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but I'm starting to try them out. I have not tested AC coupling with any of them yet. I was at a conference less than a year ago and one of the major brands was saying that there is no hybrid inverter that supports both AC coupled PV and a generator at the same time for a grid tied system. They said "you can't have it all." There may be an exception to that, I've never looked into it, but with the Victron and Outback (and probably Scheider... IDK) it's easy to have it all. I've done it and it works well in every mode. The frequency changes super fast and assuming you have a properly programmed rule 21 compliant Grid tied inverter, it responds very quickly, and in the systems I've monitored, the frequency never had to go above 62 Hz, which is good enough for most sensitive loads. The inverters are totally designed for this these days, but if you have highly sensitive loads, then it may not work well. *Considerations...* First of all, I will be assuming that you are using quality rule 21 grid-direct inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as the Outback Radian or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow in changing their frequency, and special considerations had to be accounted for because of that, but I heard that was fixed a while ago. You had to reduce the charging voltages to account for the delayed throttling, but I can attest that even in the early days, Outback never had this problem, and Victron works smoothly as well. The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or prolonged power outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark start). Simply put, if your battery gets low and the battery inverter turns off, then your PV can't charge the battery. This problem is lessened when you connect the PV Grid Direct inverters to a dedicated output on the inverter so that the loads shut down while the battery is still a few percent above the inverter shutdown level. That is a nice advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't know if the Hybrid inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this little safety net, the inverter can still discharge the battery to the point where the inverter turns off and you have a problem. My solution is that you should have at least a little bit of the PV DC coupled so that when the sun comes out, the voltage will rise and the inverter will turn on. This is also recommended in Victron's AC Coupling manual. The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery based inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full PV power. Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, whichever is lower) does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter (no more than 10kW of power from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback recommends no more than 6 kW of Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian (so that's 75% of the battery inverter's power). In some circumstances, this could demand upsizing the battery inverter, which is another great reason to DC couple half of the PV and AC couple the other half... because then you could effectively have more PV with less battery based inverter, depending on your loads. As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with an AC coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron has been really leading the way with integrating with other PV grid-tied inverters so that you can monitor them through Victron's own monitoring. This depends on the brand you are connecting to, but most of these brands have a way to get this information via TCP/IP, and if so, Victron will read that and report it on their own website, in their app, and on their touchscreen. With some brands, you can even see the error codes etc. remotely through Victron's monitoring. It almost makes it seamless as though it was all one brand. So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but these days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not all of which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system. Thanks, Kienan *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution* *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* *www.distribution.solar* ------------------------------ *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM *To:* William Miller ; RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> *Cc:* Jerry Shafer *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the any DC side connection. Funtimes On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jay: I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and frequency before it can start up. How else could this work? I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output. All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. Here is more information from each of the manufacturers: Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen input to an output and make that your connection point. “*A full AC coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is limited.”* EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online. There is an EG4 inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video . Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual*: It is forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. *That is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled battery charging. I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. This is a work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can. When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this article. There are limited advantages to AC coupling: · AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. · AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this. In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is a crude affair. I am not a fan. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling I’m going to both agree and disagree Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is correct. Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac coupling into the inverter directly. Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not designed for ac coupling. Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works with newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. Jay On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Friends: I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I think this definition needs to be clarified. Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope these diagrams come through): A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* AC coupled. Here is an AC-coupled system: What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. Do we have consensus on this definition? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Mon Oct 30 12:14:17 2023 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:14:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Good Morning Wrenches, AC-coupled systems are generally not pleasant to batteries of any type. I would not AC Couple any Valve Regulated Battery system as you are, in essence, "overcharging" them at times, and this can and has led to battery failures (usually overcharging and swelling) that all battery manufacturers will not cover under warranty. Flooded batteries can take this abuse a bit more, but this can still result in drying the batteries out and corrosion or degradation of the negative plate due to heat. Lithium batteries do not like this, but the BMS will shut off the charge to the battery bank. It doesn't power off the battery but stops the excessive charge to the battery, but these unloaded voltages on the input of the battery can stress the BMS depending on how much voltage is seen. Ideally, if you are AC coupling, it's better to use a system that tapers charging and voltage depending on SOC, to do this you'll need closed loop communication, with the inverter/charger so the battery can shut down or slow charging depending on SOC. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 8:53 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason: > > > > Thanks for contributing to this thread. I did not realize it would create > so much interest. My main point is to establish a definition for > AC-coupling, and I believe we do have consensus on that. The next question > to ask is AC-coupling a good thing? > > > > You make the point that BMS systems protect lithium batteries from > damage. They do so by shutting down, not correcting the problem. But what > good is a system that shuts down? When that happens someone has to roll a > truck to reset the system. We should not design outages into our systems. > > > > I spoke at length this weekend with a very knowledgeable member of this > forum (thank you, sir) about closed loop. Their experience is that there > were packet losses in the communications and when that occurred the system > shut down. I am going to set up my first closed loop today and I hope I do > not have the same experience. > > > > Traditional charge controllers may seem “crude” but they operate on real, > measured values of voltage and current, values that are at the core of > battery care. Modern charging systems seem to rely at least partially on > sate of charge. State of charge is a calculated value that is notorious > for being inaccurate and drifting more so over time. Every SOC scheme I > know needs to be recalibrated frequently. The recalibration requires > hitting certain charge parameters and if you can’t hit those you don’t > recalibrate. > > > > I assumed that a BMS system provided within a lithium battery assembly by > the manufacturer would be accurate. I spoke with a tech support person > from a prominent LFP manufacturer at length recently and was told their BMS > is not foolproof on calculating SOC. I am not confident that any of them > are. > > > > I am new to lithium battery systems. It may be my inexperience talking, > but it seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may make them > unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully. I do not believe > AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium batteries, or any > battery. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2023 7:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > > > I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was > covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with > lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But > LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery > from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery > before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to > modern equipment that talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude > algorithms for throttling PV don't seem particularly confidence-inspiring. > This is one argument for sticking with a single manufacturer system > architecture (i.e. Enphase). While there are obvious downsides and > limitations to that, the system should work safely and flawlessly in an AC > Coupled scenario. > > > > With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the > advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also > greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it > depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most > sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. For > example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the MPPT inputs > are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not easily achieved. > So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC couple. But this system has > a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to be on the AC load output, > meaning it will not be monitored by the Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's > nice to have that flexibility. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > William, > > > > My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said > > "This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. > These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging." > > > > I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you > mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations > are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get > to those below. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you say that the battery inverters "weren't *originally* designed > for this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based > inverters 25 years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They > weren't "originally" designed for it. But that was then and this is now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you > can't wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV input... > that being said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just critiquing the > wiring diagram in the original post to say that it wires up differently, so > I'd say that you are both right on this one. That said, I don't think > anyone says you have to wire it into the gen port, I think that even with > the hybrid inverters, the way in William's original post is still a fully > acceptable way to do it. > > > > > > > > I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair amount > and I have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with Lithium and > with Lead Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and Victron, but I > have some experience with Schneider as well. These systems have been > working really well for a good while, but that being said, Schneider had > some real problems at first (major headache). > > > > > > Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but I'm > starting to try them out. I have not tested AC coupling with any of them > yet. I was at a conference less than a year ago and one of the major brands > was saying that there is no hybrid inverter that supports both AC coupled > PV and a generator at the same time for a grid tied system. They said "you > can't have it all." There may be an exception to that, I've never looked > into it, but with the Victron and Outback (and probably Scheider... IDK) > it's easy to have it all. I've done it and it works well in every mode. The > frequency changes super fast and assuming you have a properly programmed > rule 21 compliant Grid tied inverter, it responds very quickly, and in the > systems I've monitored, the frequency never had to go above 62 Hz, which is > good enough for most sensitive loads. The inverters are totally designed > for this these days, but if you have highly sensitive loads, then it may > not work well. > > > > > > > > *Considerations...* > > First of all, I will be assuming that you are using quality rule 21 > grid-direct inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as the > Outback Radian or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow in > changing their frequency, and special considerations had to be accounted > for because of that, but I heard that was fixed a while ago. You had to > reduce the charging voltages to account for the delayed throttling, but I > can attest that even in the early days, Outback never had this problem, and > Victron works smoothly as well. > > > > The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or prolonged > power outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark start). Simply > put, if your battery gets low and the battery inverter turns off, then your > PV can't charge the battery. This problem is lessened when you connect the > PV Grid Direct inverters to a dedicated output on the inverter so that the > loads shut down while the battery is still a few percent above the inverter > shutdown level. That is a nice advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't > know if the Hybrid inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this > little safety net, the inverter can still discharge the battery to the > point where the inverter turns off and you have a problem. My solution is > that you should have at least a little bit of the PV DC coupled so that > when the sun comes out, the voltage will rise and the inverter will turn > on. This is also recommended in Victron's AC Coupling manual. > > > > The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery > based inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full PV > power. Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, whichever is > lower) does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter (no more than > 10kW of power from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback recommends no more > than 6 kW of Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian (so that's 75% of the > battery inverter's power). In some circumstances, this could demand > upsizing the battery inverter, which is another great reason to DC couple > half of the PV and AC couple the other half... because then you could > effectively have more PV with less battery based inverter, depending on > your loads. > > > > As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with an > AC coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron has been > really leading the way with integrating with other PV grid-tied inverters > so that you can monitor them through Victron's own monitoring. This depends > on the brand you are connecting to, but most of these brands have a way to > get this information via TCP/IP, and if so, Victron will read that and > report it on their own website, in their app, and on their touchscreen. > With some brands, you can even see the error codes etc. remotely through > Victron's monitoring. It almost makes it seamless as though it was all one > brand. > > > > So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but > these days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not > all of which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system. > > > > Thanks, > > Kienan > > > > > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution* > > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * > > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* > > *www.distribution.solar* > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM > *To:* William Miller ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Jerry Shafer > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > > > AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with > outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and > charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a > genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the > any DC side connection. > > Funtimes > > > > On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay: > > > > I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate > with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter > AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and > frequency before it can start up. How else could this work? > > > > I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look to > you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming > the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output. All of the > manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. Here is more information > from each of the manufacturers: > > > > Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen > input to an output and make that your connection point. “*A full AC > coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is > limited.”* > > > > EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online. There is an EG4 > inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the > Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an output. The > EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed > level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. The manual is > pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video > . > > > > Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input for > AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual*: It is > forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. *That is > because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. > > > > So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery > inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an > output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of > AC-coupled battery charging. > > > > I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the > battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift > the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. This is a > work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these systems it is > pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage. These > systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge > controller can. > > > > When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain > conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this > article. > > > > There are limited advantages to AC coupling: > > > > · AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. > This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. > > > > · AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that > has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most > batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, > so I would hesitate to recommend this. > > > > In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters > is a crude affair. I am not a fan. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > > > I’m going to both agree and disagree > > > > Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is > correct. > > > > Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac > coupling into the inverter directly. > > Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. > > > > And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not > designed for ac coupling. > > Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any > internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. > > > > Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works with > newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While > creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the > understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I > think this definition needs to be clarified. > > > > Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope > these diagrams come through): > > > > > > > > A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* > AC coupled. > > > > Here is an AC-coupled system: > > > > > > > > What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending > power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery > inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require > careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. > > > > Do we have consensus on this definition? > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Oct 30 12:17:14 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 11:17:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: There isn't a failsafe system. For example, if you have a battery temperature sensor dislodged from a lead acid battery, you can have overcharged (or undercharged) batteries. And there is no perfect algorithm for charging based on voltage, either. And as batteries age, you have to adjust setpoints for optimum charging (which undoubtedly doesn't happen in many cases). There have been cases where I wish lead acid batteries did have a shutoff to avoid catastrophe (I've "boiled" the electrolyte out of some unattended batteries before). Fortunately, they were my own and not a customer's. I would agree that SOC is a pretty poor metric unless a BMS can accurately relay that to an external charging system. In my opinion, the safest and best way to AC Couple is with a single manufacturer handling all aspects. The number of Enphase battery systems out there is very quickly growing, and aside from wireless communication issues in the past generation, I have not experienced or heard of any significant issues. Battery charging safety is not impaired by communication issues since the batteries simply will not charge or discharge in this error state. And since the system is modular, a single battery failure does not take down the entire system, which is admittedly a problem with some AC Coupled solutions (the potential black start issue). But Enphase has that resolved for systems using the IQ8 microinverters, which have black start capability (they call it Sunlight Jump Start). Of course, Enphase doesn't do off-grid, so it's a moot point for non-grid tied systems. There are a lot of unknowns in new technology, so I am tiptoeing into AC Coupling with other solutions that have closed-loop communication. Admittedly, I have my concerns, but I'm also pretty confident that the manufacturers of the equipment are working very closely together based on what I have seen. However, there is risk in that as well. I have concerns, for example, with Sol-Ark starting to sell their own battery. I'm not saying they will stop cooperating with other brands, but they do have an incentive to push their own brand of battery, I would assume. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 10:54 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jason: > > > > Thanks for contributing to this thread. I did not realize it would create > so much interest. My main point is to establish a definition for > AC-coupling, and I believe we do have consensus on that. The next question > to ask is AC-coupling a good thing? > > > > You make the point that BMS systems protect lithium batteries from > damage. They do so by shutting down, not correcting the problem. But what > good is a system that shuts down? When that happens someone has to roll a > truck to reset the system. We should not design outages into our systems. > > > > I spoke at length this weekend with a very knowledgeable member of this > forum (thank you, sir) about closed loop. Their experience is that there > were packet losses in the communications and when that occurred the system > shut down. I am going to set up my first closed loop today and I hope I do > not have the same experience. > > > > Traditional charge controllers may seem “crude” but they operate on real, > measured values of voltage and current, values that are at the core of > battery care. Modern charging systems seem to rely at least partially on > sate of charge. State of charge is a calculated value that is notorious > for being inaccurate and drifting more so over time. Every SOC scheme I > know needs to be recalibrated frequently. The recalibration requires > hitting certain charge parameters and if you can’t hit those you don’t > recalibrate. > > > > I assumed that a BMS system provided within a lithium battery assembly by > the manufacturer would be accurate. I spoke with a tech support person > from a prominent LFP manufacturer at length recently and was told their BMS > is not foolproof on calculating SOC. I am not confident that any of them > are. > > > > I am new to lithium battery systems. It may be my inexperience talking, > but it seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may make them > unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully. I do not believe > AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium batteries, or any > battery. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2023 7:33 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > > > I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was > covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with > lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But > LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery > from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery > before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to > modern equipment that talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude > algorithms for throttling PV don't seem particularly confidence-inspiring. > This is one argument for sticking with a single manufacturer system > architecture (i.e. Enphase). While there are obvious downsides and > limitations to that, the system should work safely and flawlessly in an AC > Coupled scenario. > > > > With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the > advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also > greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it > depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most > sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. For > example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the MPPT inputs > are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not easily achieved. > So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC couple. But this system has > a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to be on the AC load output, > meaning it will not be monitored by the Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's > nice to have that flexibility. > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > William, > > > > My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said > > "This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. > These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging." > > > > I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you > mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations > are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get > to those below. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you say that the battery inverters "weren't *originally* designed > for this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based > inverters 25 years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They > weren't "originally" designed for it. But that was then and this is now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you > can't wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV input... > that being said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just critiquing the > wiring diagram in the original post to say that it wires up differently, so > I'd say that you are both right on this one. That said, I don't think > anyone says you have to wire it into the gen port, I think that even with > the hybrid inverters, the way in William's original post is still a fully > acceptable way to do it. > > > > > > > > I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair amount > and I have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with Lithium and > with Lead Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and Victron, but I > have some experience with Schneider as well. These systems have been > working really well for a good while, but that being said, Schneider had > some real problems at first (major headache). > > > > > > Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but I'm > starting to try them out. I have not tested AC coupling with any of them > yet. I was at a conference less than a year ago and one of the major brands > was saying that there is no hybrid inverter that supports both AC coupled > PV and a generator at the same time for a grid tied system. They said "you > can't have it all." There may be an exception to that, I've never looked > into it, but with the Victron and Outback (and probably Scheider... IDK) > it's easy to have it all. I've done it and it works well in every mode. The > frequency changes super fast and assuming you have a properly programmed > rule 21 compliant Grid tied inverter, it responds very quickly, and in the > systems I've monitored, the frequency never had to go above 62 Hz, which is > good enough for most sensitive loads. The inverters are totally designed > for this these days, but if you have highly sensitive loads, then it may > not work well. > > > > > > > > *Considerations...* > > First of all, I will be assuming that you are using quality rule 21 > grid-direct inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as the > Outback Radian or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow in > changing their frequency, and special considerations had to be accounted > for because of that, but I heard that was fixed a while ago. You had to > reduce the charging voltages to account for the delayed throttling, but I > can attest that even in the early days, Outback never had this problem, and > Victron works smoothly as well. > > > > The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or prolonged > power outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark start). Simply > put, if your battery gets low and the battery inverter turns off, then your > PV can't charge the battery. This problem is lessened when you connect the > PV Grid Direct inverters to a dedicated output on the inverter so that the > loads shut down while the battery is still a few percent above the inverter > shutdown level. That is a nice advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't > know if the Hybrid inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this > little safety net, the inverter can still discharge the battery to the > point where the inverter turns off and you have a problem. My solution is > that you should have at least a little bit of the PV DC coupled so that > when the sun comes out, the voltage will rise and the inverter will turn > on. This is also recommended in Victron's AC Coupling manual. > > > > The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery > based inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full PV > power. Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, whichever is > lower) does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter (no more than > 10kW of power from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback recommends no more > than 6 kW of Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian (so that's 75% of the > battery inverter's power). In some circumstances, this could demand > upsizing the battery inverter, which is another great reason to DC couple > half of the PV and AC couple the other half... because then you could > effectively have more PV with less battery based inverter, depending on > your loads. > > > > As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with an > AC coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron has been > really leading the way with integrating with other PV grid-tied inverters > so that you can monitor them through Victron's own monitoring. This depends > on the brand you are connecting to, but most of these brands have a way to > get this information via TCP/IP, and if so, Victron will read that and > report it on their own website, in their app, and on their touchscreen. > With some brands, you can even see the error codes etc. remotely through > Victron's monitoring. It almost makes it seamless as though it was all one > brand. > > > > So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but > these days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not > all of which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system. > > > > Thanks, > > Kienan > > > > > > *Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution* > > *maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com * > > *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)* > > *www.distribution.solar* > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM > *To:* William Miller ; RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Jerry Shafer > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > > > AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with > outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and > charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a > genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the > any DC side connection. > > Funtimes > > > > On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay: > > > > I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate > with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter > AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and > frequency before it can start up. How else could this work? > > > > I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look to > you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming > the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output. All of the > manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. Here is more information > from each of the manufacturers: > > > > Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen > input to an output and make that your connection point. “*A full AC > coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is > limited.”* > > > > EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online. There is an EG4 > inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the > Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an output. The > EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed > level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. The manual is > pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video > . > > > > Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input for > AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual*: It is > forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. *That is > because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. > > > > So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery > inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an > output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of > AC-coupled battery charging. > > > > I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the > battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift > the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. This is a > work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these systems it is > pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage. These > systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge > controller can. > > > > When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain > conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this > article. > > > > There are limited advantages to AC coupling: > > > > · AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. > This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. > > > > · AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that > has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most > batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, > so I would hesitate to recommend this. > > > > In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters > is a crude affair. I am not a fan. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > > > I’m going to both agree and disagree > > > > Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is > correct. > > > > Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac > coupling into the inverter directly. > > Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. > > > > And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not > designed for ac coupling. > > Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any > internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. > > > > Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works with > newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While > creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Friends: > > > > I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the > understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I > think this definition needs to be clarified. > > > > Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope > these diagrams come through): > > > > > > > > A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is *not* > AC coupled. > > > > Here is an AC-coupled system: > > > > > > > > What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending > power *backwards* through a battery inverter. This is not how battery > inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require > careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. > > > > Do we have consensus on this definition? > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 30 12:41:57 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 09:41:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9869398e058004e157c8780b0578fb92@sti.net> From Schneider, who leads in it all the way back to Trace Engineering. The interlock is to protect the genset from backfeed. Sometimes a block diagram can help. A link to their guide which explains the history back to Legacy grid tie inverters. https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/Conext-XW-Pro-SW-AC-Coupling-Guide.pdf Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [9]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [10] [9] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-10-30 9:14 am, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches wrote: > Good Morning Wrenches, > > AC-coupled systems are generally not pleasant to batteries of any type. > I would not AC Couple any Valve Regulated Battery system as you are, > in essence, "overcharging" them at times, and this can and has led to > battery failures (usually overcharging and swelling) that all battery > manufacturers will not cover under warranty. Flooded batteries can > take this abuse a bit more, but this can still result in drying the > batteries out and corrosion or degradation of the negative plate due to > heat. > > Lithium batteries do not like this, but the BMS will shut off the > charge to the battery bank. It doesn't power off the battery but stops > the excessive charge to the battery, but these unloaded voltages on the > input of the battery can stress the BMS depending on how much voltage > is seen. > > Ideally, if you are AC coupling, it's better to use a system that > tapers charging and voltage depending on SOC, to do this you'll need > closed loop communication, with the inverter/charger so the battery can > shut down or slow charging depending on SOC. > > [1] > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > [2] [3] [4] [5] > > ------------------------- > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only > for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or > privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use > of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is > prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the > sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------- > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 8:53 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Jason: > > Thanks for contributing to this thread. I did not realize it would > create so much interest. My main point is to establish a definition > for AC-coupling, and I believe we do have consensus on that. The next > question to ask is AC-coupling a good thing? > > You make the point that BMS systems protect lithium batteries from > damage. They do so by shutting down, not correcting the problem. But > what good is a system that shuts down? When that happens someone has > to roll a truck to reset the system. We should not design outages into > our systems. > > I spoke at length this weekend with a very knowledgeable member of this > forum (thank you, sir) about closed loop. Their experience is that > there were packet losses in the communications and when that occurred > the system shut down. I am going to set up my first closed loop today > and I hope I do not have the same experience. > > Traditional charge controllers may seem "crude" but they operate on > real, measured values of voltage and current, values that are at the > core of battery care. Modern charging systems seem to rely at least > partially on sate of charge. State of charge is a calculated value > that is notorious for being inaccurate and drifting more so over time. > Every SOC scheme I know needs to be recalibrated frequently. The > recalibration requires hitting certain charge parameters and if you > can't hit those you don't recalibrate. > > I assumed that a BMS system provided within a lithium battery assembly > by the manufacturer would be accurate. I spoke with a tech support > person from a prominent LFP manufacturer at length recently and was > told their BMS is not foolproof on calculating SOC. I am not confident > that any of them are. > > I am new to lithium battery systems. It may be my inexperience > talking, but it seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may > make them unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully. I > do not believe AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium > batteries, or any battery. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [6] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches > Sent: Monday, October 30, 2023 7:33 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Jason Szumlanski > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was > covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk > with lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC > coupled. But LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to > protect the battery from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to > disconnect the battery before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC > Coupling is better suited to modern equipment that talks to each other > in a closed loop. Crude algorithms for throttling PV don't seem > particularly confidence-inspiring. This is one argument for sticking > with a single manufacturer system architecture (i.e. Enphase). While > there are obvious downsides and limitations to that, the system should > work safely and flawlessly in an AC Coupled scenario. > > With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the > advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also > greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it > depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most > sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. > For example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the > MPPT inputs are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not > easily achieved. So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC > couple. But this system has a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to > be on the AC load output, meaning it will not be monitored by the > Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's nice to have that flexibility. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) > Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > William, > > My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said > > "This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. > These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery > overcharging." > > I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what > you mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful > considerations are required without mentioning what those > considerations are, and I'll get to those below. > > When you say that the battery inverters "weren't originally designed > for this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based > inverters 25 years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. > They weren't "originally" designed for it. But that was then and this > is now. > > Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you > can't wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV > input... that being said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just > critiquing the wiring diagram in the original post to say that it wires > up differently, so I'd say that you are both right on this one. That > said, I don't think anyone says you have to wire it into the gen port, > I think that even with the hybrid inverters, the way in William's > original post is still a fully acceptable way to do it. > > I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair > amount and I have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with > Lithium and with Lead Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and > Victron, but I have some experience with Schneider as well. These > systems have been working really well for a good while, but that being > said, Schneider had some real problems at first (major headache). > > Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but > I'm starting to try them out. I have not tested AC coupling with any of > them yet. I was at a conference less than a year ago and one of the > major brands was saying that there is no hybrid inverter that supports > both AC coupled PV and a generator at the same time for a grid tied > system. They said "you can't have it all." There may be an exception to > that, I've never looked into it, but with the Victron and Outback (and > probably Scheider... IDK) it's easy to have it all. I've done it and it > works well in every mode. The frequency changes super fast and assuming > you have a properly programmed rule 21 compliant Grid tied inverter, it > responds very quickly, and in the systems I've monitored, the frequency > never had to go above 62 Hz, which is good enough for most sensitive > loads. The inverters are totally designed for this these days, but if > you have highly sensitive loads, then it may not work well. > > Considerations... > > First of all, I will be assuming that you are using quality rule 21 > grid-direct inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as > the Outback Radian or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow > in changing their frequency, and special considerations had to be > accounted for because of that, but I heard that was fixed a while ago. > You had to reduce the charging voltages to account for the delayed > throttling, but I can attest that even in the early days, Outback never > had this problem, and Victron works smoothly as well. > > The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or > prolonged power outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark > start). Simply put, if your battery gets low and the battery inverter > turns off, then your PV can't charge the battery. This problem is > lessened when you connect the PV Grid Direct inverters to a dedicated > output on the inverter so that the loads shut down while the battery is > still a few percent above the inverter shutdown level. That is a nice > advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't know if the Hybrid > inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this little safety > net, the inverter can still discharge the battery to the point where > the inverter turns off and you have a problem. My solution is that you > should have at least a little bit of the PV DC coupled so that when the > sun comes out, the voltage will rise and the inverter will turn on. > This is also recommended in Victron's AC Coupling manual. > > The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery > based inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full > PV power. Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, > whichever is lower) does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter > (no more than 10kW of power from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback > recommends no more than 6 kW of Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian > (so that's 75% of the battery inverter's power). In some circumstances, > this could demand upsizing the battery inverter, which is another great > reason to DC couple half of the PV and AC couple the other half... > because then you could effectively have more PV with less battery based > inverter, depending on your loads. > > As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with > an AC coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron > has been really leading the way with integrating with other PV > grid-tied inverters so that you can monitor them through Victron's own > monitoring. This depends on the brand you are connecting to, but most > of these brands have a way to get this information via TCP/IP, and if > so, Victron will read that and report it on their own website, in their > app, and on their touchscreen. With some brands, you can even see the > error codes etc. remotely through Victron's monitoring. It almost makes > it seamless as though it was all one brand. > > So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but > these days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if > not all of which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system. > > Thanks, > > Kienan > > Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution > > maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com > > (801) 631-5584 (Cell) > > www.distribution.solar > > ------------------------- > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM > To: William Miller ; RE-wrenches > > Cc: Jerry Shafer > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of > with outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq > shift and charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if > you connect a genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more > complicated the any DC side connection. > > Funtimes > > On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Jay: > > I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to > operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the > battery inverter AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see > correct voltage and frequency before it can start up. How else could > this work? > > I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look > to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just > reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra > output. All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. > Here is more information from each of the manufacturers: > > Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen > input to an output and make that your connection point. "_A full AC > coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring > is limited."_ > > EG4: I could not find an "ev4" inverter anywhere online. There is an > EG4 inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just > like the Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an > output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC > reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift > function. The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do > provide a video [7]. > > Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input > for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual_: It is > forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. _That > is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. > > So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery > inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to > be an output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage > control of AC-coupled battery charging. > > I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the > battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to > shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. > This is a work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these > systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery > charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery > charging like a DC charge controller can. > > When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain > conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this > article. [8] > > There are limited advantages to AC coupling: > > · AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. > This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge > controllers. > > · AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that > has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most > batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm > provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this. > > In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest > inverters is a crude affair. I am not a fan. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [6] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > From: Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM > To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > I'm going to both agree and disagree > > Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is > correct. > > Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac > coupling into the inverter directly. > > Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. > > And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are > not designed for ac coupling. > > Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn't have any > internal control and required external relay control to prevent > overcharge. > > Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works > with newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. > While creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. > > Jay > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: > > Friends: > > I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the > understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I > think this definition needs to be clarified. > > Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope > these diagrams come through): > > > > A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is not > AC coupled. > > Here is an AC-coupled system: > > > > What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by > sending power backwards through a battery inverter. This is not how > battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems > require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. > > Do we have consensus on this definition? > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [6] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.rollsbattery.com [2] http://www.facebook.com/RollsBattery [3] https://www.youtube.com/RollsBatteryEngineering [4] https://www.linkedin.com/company/rolls-battery-engineering [5] http://www.instagram.com/RollsBattery [6] http://www.millersolar.com/ [7] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRAq9g34VcI&ab_channel=EG4Electronics [8] https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start [9] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 184db342.png Type: image/png Size: 698013 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: grid ac couple.webp Type: image/webp Size: 43164 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Mon Oct 30 13:14:46 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 10:14:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: References: <3C59BA16-1A38-47B0-BCF4-CD04895897C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I’m not familiar with Outback defaults but most inverters I’ve dealt with have a grid tolerance of 10% +/- so 216 to 264VAC. On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 6:57 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Jay, > > The inverter won't even connect to the grid. It stays in the state where > it is sampling the grid, AC in light blinking. > > Is the default high voltage for the nominal 240 V 280? (IE 140 V X 2). > > > Thanks for your help. > > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > --- > > > > On 2023-10-29 15:45, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > > Hi drake > > The early mate 3 has a glitch which I think they changed in the 3s. > > You e got to set the rebulk volts above what you want it to charge at. > > IE if the battery volts don't get below the rebulk volts it won't charge. > > So if your shallow cycling the batteries it's common it won't get below > the rebulk volts. If you're deep cycling it usually will with default > settings > > The default high voltage window for ac input is default at 140v. > > Hope this helps > > Jay > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > My Radian GS 8048 intermittently will connect to the grid to charge > batteries. The grid voltage seems to run high around here. Yesterday, it > wouldn't connect. The grid voltage was at 251 V. Later it did connect. At > that point the grid was at 246 V. > > I am suspecting that the Radian has a voltage acceptance limit of 250 V. > Is that true? Is it possible to open up the window? > > If that isn't it, what could be the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Oct 30 13:19:49 2023 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 17:19:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling In-Reply-To: References: <19459fef11e96318e68b30b7b7dac107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That is my point was that the only consideration that deals with overcharge that I could possibly think of is with systems that have a poor implementation of the frequency shift (like the older Schneiders). I think that AC coupling gets a black eye from the old days and from brands that have bad implementations. They also get a black eye from installers who don't program the systems correctly. So to set matters straight, IF you use good equipment, and IF you program it right, then you do get a nice taper charge with AC coupling. I know it hasn't always been that way, but we are talking about today, not 5 or 10 years ago. I have tested it and seen it myself. You get good smooth 3 stage charging, completely controlled by the battery-based inverter, and it's based on the inverter's voltage sensors. I'm not going to try to make any overarching statements beyond the brands I have hands-on experience with (Outback and Victron) but with these systems, it is no different than charging with a charge controller. The tapering effect is there whether it's open loop (traditional system with no comms) or whether it's closed loop, or SOC based. Most people also misunderstand closed loop communications. With most brands, you can't see what's going on, but because Victron is open source, you can look in and see exactly what is going on. What I'm about to say may have some exceptions (Like the Sunny Island). Generally speaking, the charge controllers and inverters still operate very similar to how they do with Lead Acid batteries, but instead of you manually putting in the charge voltage and current limitations, the BMS sends the Max Voltage and Max Current parameters, so the inverters and charge controllers just override their parameters based on the last instruction from the BMS. The BMS sends 3 parameters, Max Charge Voltage, Max Charge Current, and Max Discharge Current. When you start charging a discharged battery, the BMS will send parameters telling it to charge to a specified voltage not to exceed a specified maximum current (basically a bulk/absorb charge). Once the BMS decides that the battery is sufficiently balanced and at 100%, it ends this "absorb" charge by sending a new set of parameters to the system. The new set of parameters will have either a reduced voltage, a reduced current, or both. If heat is generated in the battery at any time, or if any one cell has too high of a voltage at any time, then the BMS will send a new set of parameters to reduce the charge voltage/current accordingly. The only element that SOC plays in the whole affair is helping the BMS to know when to send what charging parameters. Of course, if the batteries get too cold, the BMS will likely send a new set of parameters with charge current set to 0A. In any case, whether you like Closed Loop comms or whether you hate them, that has no bearing on AC coupled vs DC coupled. So whether you have closed loop communications or whether you have open loop communications won't really determine too much how good or bad the AC coupling is for Lithium batteries... If you have it set up right with frequency-Watt, then you'll have a nice taper charge either way. Without closed loop, you'll have a nice taper charge at your absorb voltage, and you'll have tapered float voltage. With Closed-loop, you'll have a nice tapered charge dictated by the voltages and currents desired by the BMS. I want to make one thing abundantly clear before I sign off... Most AC coupled systems I've seen are not programmed correctly... the installer never programmed the Grid-direct inverter to function correctly for frequency-watt. In this case, then everything I have said goes out the window, and AC coupled systems that are set up in this way are really bad for the batteries. If this mistake is made, then it is really hard on the batteries just like Steve Higgins was talking about, and it totally makes sense that this would void the warranty. Have a great day! 73, Kienan Maxfield Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584(Cell) www.distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, October 30, 2023 8:32 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jason Szumlanski Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling I read through this thread, and I don't think one important aspect was covered with respect to "overcharging" batteries. There may be risk with lead acid batteries connected to a hybrid inverter that is AC coupled. But LiPO batteries have a BMS that is there, in part, to protect the battery from an overcharge scenario. The BMS is going to disconnect the battery before catastrophe strikes. In my opinion, AC Coupling is better suited to modern equipment that talks to each other in a closed loop. Crude algorithms for throttling PV don't seem particularly confidence-inspiring. This is one argument for sticking with a single manufacturer system architecture (i.e. Enphase). While there are obvious downsides and limitations to that, the system should work safely and flawlessly in an AC Coupled scenario. With respect to mixed systems with DC and AC Coupling, while I see the advantages, it really complicates the design and installation. It also greatly confuses the monitoring aspect for PV production. I think it depends on the scenario, but going one way or the other makes the most sense to me in most situations. With that said, there are exceptions. For example, I have a Sol-Ark 15K client right now where all of the MPPT inputs are taken, and reconfiguring the DC coupled strings is not easily achieved. So, to add more PV, the obvious choice is to AC couple. But this system has a generator, so the AC Coupled PV needs to be on the AC load output, meaning it will not be monitored by the Sol-Ark. That's not ideal, but it's nice to have that flexibility. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 4:19 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches > wrote: William, My whole email is in regards to the point you made when you said "This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging." I both agree and disagree with these statements... depending on what you mean. I don't think it's super helpful to say that careful considerations are required without mentioning what those considerations are, and I'll get to those below. When you say that the battery inverters "weren't originally designed for this" I'd agree to an extent.. The "original" battery based inverters 25 years ago were certainly not designed for AC coupling. They weren't "originally" designed for it. But that was then and this is now. Now William is correct that the Gen input becomes an AC output, and you can't wire the gen into that "input" if you are using it as a PV input... that being said, Jay didn't think otherwise, he was just critiquing the wiring diagram in the original post to say that it wires up differently, so I'd say that you are both right on this one. That said, I don't think anyone says you have to wire it into the gen port, I think that even with the hybrid inverters, the way in William's original post is still a fully acceptable way to do it. I am not a huge fan of AC coupling, however, I have done it a fair amount and I have a fair amount of experience with it off-grid with Lithium and with Lead Acid. Most of my experience is with Outback and Victron, but I have some experience with Schneider as well. These systems have been working really well for a good while, but that being said, Schneider had some real problems at first (major headache). Now when it comes to hybrid inverters, I'm still not a huge fan... but I'm starting to try them out. I have not tested AC coupling with any of them yet. I was at a conference less than a year ago and one of the major brands was saying that there is no hybrid inverter that supports both AC coupled PV and a generator at the same time for a grid tied system. They said "you can't have it all." There may be an exception to that, I've never looked into it, but with the Victron and Outback (and probably Scheider... IDK) it's easy to have it all. I've done it and it works well in every mode. The frequency changes super fast and assuming you have a properly programmed rule 21 compliant Grid tied inverter, it responds very quickly, and in the systems I've monitored, the frequency never had to go above 62 Hz, which is good enough for most sensitive loads. The inverters are totally designed for this these days, but if you have highly sensitive loads, then it may not work well. Considerations... First of all, I will be assuming that you are using quality rule 21 grid-direct inverters and a good battery inverter that works as well as the Outback Radian or the Victron. The early Schneiders were too slow in changing their frequency, and special considerations had to be accounted for because of that, but I heard that was fixed a while ago. You had to reduce the charging voltages to account for the delayed throttling, but I can attest that even in the early days, Outback never had this problem, and Victron works smoothly as well. The primary problem for AC coupling is in off-grid scenarios or prolonged power outages, and that's the black start issue (or dark start). Simply put, if your battery gets low and the battery inverter turns off, then your PV can't charge the battery. This problem is lessened when you connect the PV Grid Direct inverters to a dedicated output on the inverter so that the loads shut down while the battery is still a few percent above the inverter shutdown level. That is a nice advantage of the Victron inverters. I don't know if the Hybrid inverters do this or not. In any case, even with this little safety net, the inverter can still discharge the battery to the point where the inverter turns off and you have a problem. My solution is that you should have at least a little bit of the PV DC coupled so that when the sun comes out, the voltage will rise and the inverter will turn on. This is also recommended in Victron's AC Coupling manual. The second consideration is the minimum inverter size... Your battery based inverter needs to be capable of handling and controlling the full PV power. Victron recommends that the maximum PV power (DC or AC, whichever is lower) does not exceed 100% of the rating of the inverter (no more than 10kW of power from the PV on a 10kW inverter). Outback recommends no more than 6 kW of Grid-Tied inverter per 8 kW of Radian (so that's 75% of the battery inverter's power). In some circumstances, this could demand upsizing the battery inverter, which is another great reason to DC couple half of the PV and AC couple the other half... because then you could effectively have more PV with less battery based inverter, depending on your loads. As was mentioned by William, monitoring is generally not as good with an AC coupled system, but here again, that's not always true. Victron has been really leading the way with integrating with other PV grid-tied inverters so that you can monitor them through Victron's own monitoring. This depends on the brand you are connecting to, but most of these brands have a way to get this information via TCP/IP, and if so, Victron will read that and report it on their own website, in their app, and on their touchscreen. With some brands, you can even see the error codes etc. remotely through Victron's monitoring. It almost makes it seamless as though it was all one brand. So in case it's not clear, I'm never a fan of 100% AC coupled PV, but these days there are very few legitimate concerns or issues... Most if not all of which disappear with a 10% - 60% DC coupled system. Thanks, Kienan Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) www.distribution.solar ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 11:14 PM To: William Miller >; RE-wrenches > Cc: Jerry Shafer > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling AC coupled systems used to work like this but with solark and sort of with outback they use the gen set input to the inverter, do the freq shift and charge via a preset voltage. This seams to work well but if you connect a genny it must be on the grid input via an ATS, alot more complicated the any DC side connection. Funtimes On Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 8:51 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote: Jay: I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the battery inverter AC output. The grid-tied inverter needs to see correct voltage and frequency before it can start up. How else could this work? I looked up all of the inverters you cited. In each case it may look to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra output. All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this. Here is more information from each of the manufacturers: Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen input to an output and make that your connection point. “A full AC coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and monitoring is limited.” EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online. There is an EG4 inverter. I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the Sol-arc: You program the generator input to actually be an output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do provide a video. Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k. From that manual: It is forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. That is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an input. So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to be an output. In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage control of AC-coupled battery charging. I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power. This is a work-around, not a design. In each and every one of these systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery charging like a DC charge controller can. When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain conditions battery voltage spikes can occur. See section 2.2 of this article. There are limited advantages to AC coupling: • AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders. This is no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. • AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries. I am not sure most batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this. In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest inverters is a crude affair. I am not a fan. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM To: william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling I’m going to both agree and disagree Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is correct. Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring ac coupling into the inverter directly. Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are not designed for ac coupling. Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any internal control and required external relay control to prevent overcharge. Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have frequently shift which works with newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge concerns. While creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. Jay On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Friends: I am starting to get the impression that there is a diversion on the understanding of the definition of AC coupling within the industry. I think this definition needs to be clarified. Below is a diagram of what I understand is a DC coupled system (I hope these diagrams come through): A battery inverter that receives AC power into an AC input port is not AC coupled. Here is an AC-coupled system: What makes AC-Coupled systems unique are the problems presented by sending power backwards through a battery inverter. This is not how battery inverters were originally designed to operate. These systems require careful consideration to avoid battery overcharging. Do we have consensus on this definition? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 20:37:52 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:37:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C8A48B6-8D33-417A-8A43-AEF22E88DD04@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Oct 31 11:34:23 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:34:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <1C8A48B6-8D33-417A-8A43-AEF22E88DD04@gmail.com> References: <1C8A48B6-8D33-417A-8A43-AEF22E88DD04@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, It was a problem that surfaced before. Outback tech support was unable to figure it out. Then, the problem went away. Recently it showed up again. For the last couple of days it has been connecting normally. The voltage has been 250 VAC or lower. I know that most direct grid tie inverters can go to 264 V. I wondered if the Radian might be limiting voltage to protect loads. Just a theory based on the reading of 251 and higher when the inverter would not connect. Thanks, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-10-30 20:37, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Drake I forgot to ask, but I'm thinking this is a new problem on an older system that was working normally? > > Jay > >> On Oct 30, 2023, at 11:15 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm not familiar with Outback defaults but most inverters I've dealt with have a grid tolerance of 10% +/- so 216 to 264VAC. > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 6:57 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > The inverter won't even connect to the grid. It stays in the state where it is sampling the grid, AC in light blinking. > > Is the default high voltage for the nominal 240 V 280? (IE 140 V X 2). > > Thanks for your help. > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2023-10-29 15:45, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi drake > > The early mate 3 has a glitch which I think they changed in the 3s. > > You e got to set the rebulk volts above what you want it to charge at. > > IE if the battery volts don't get below the rebulk volts it won't charge. > > So if your shallow cycling the batteries it's common it won't get below the rebulk volts. If you're deep cycling it usually will with default settings > > The default high voltage window for ac input is default at 140v. > > Hope this helps > > Jay > > On Oct 29, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > My Radian GS 8048 intermittently will connect to the grid to charge batteries. The grid voltage seems to run high around here. Yesterday, it wouldn't connect. The grid voltage was at 251 V. Later it did connect. At that point the grid was at 246 V. > > I am suspecting that the Radian has a voltage acceptance limit of 250 V. Is that true? Is it possible to open up the window? > > If that isn't it, what could be the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 12:14:06 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:14:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0EFC4839-D4E4-4A88-AC07-326A588451CE@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Tue Oct 31 12:38:01 2023 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:38:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem Message-ID: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> Hello Wrenches, I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it was installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out the door on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. Electrician just had to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The site is a 3 hour trip each way. The electrician was baffled, he had experience installing solar but very limited so I went to the site to see what the problem was. After spending a day checking out the inverter with two different generators, checking all the connections, AC at the inputs at the inverter and at the outputs on the breakers, and even removed the cover from the inverter to make sure some connections had not shaken loose inside the box on the long bumpy road into the property. Everything checked out. So assuming the AC board in the inverter was faulty I ordered a new unit to replace and that has now been done. SAME PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s possible that the Magnum remote monitor could be the problem. It functions properly on every setting but is it possible there is an internal fault? Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from initiating? Seems unlikely to me because the inverter can go into charge mode even without the monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between the monitor and inverter but no luck. The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion 3.8kW. Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of generators in the past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we don’t have it yet to test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. Output to the house on bypass is consistent and without problem. Any suggestions - this is just confounding. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Tue Oct 31 12:44:36 2023 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:44:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem In-Reply-To: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> References: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Are you referring to the MagWeb when you speak of the "remote monitor"? If so, then no, it isn't interfering. It is a completely passive device on the Magnum network and listens only. -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 http://www.aprsworld.com/ On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 11:39 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it > was installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out > the door on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. > Electrician just had to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, > AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The > site is a 3 hour trip each way. The electrician was baffled, he had > experience installing solar but very limited so I went to the site to see > what the problem was. After spending a day checking out the inverter with > two different generators, checking all the connections, AC at the inputs at > the inverter and at the outputs on the breakers, and even removed the cover > from the inverter to make sure some connections had not shaken loose inside > the box on the long bumpy road into the property. Everything checked out. > So assuming the AC board in the inverter was faulty I ordered a new unit to > replace and that has now been done. SAME PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s > possible that the Magnum remote monitor could be the problem. It functions > properly on every setting but is it possible there is an internal fault? > Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from initiating? Seems unlikely > to me because the inverter can go into charge mode even without the > monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between the monitor > and inverter but no luck. > > The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion > 3.8kW. Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of > generators in the past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we > don’t have it yet to test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. > Output to the house on bypass is consistent and without problem. > > Any suggestions - this is just confounding. > > Ron > > > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 12:56:14 2023 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:56:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem In-Reply-To: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> References: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> Message-ID: I have had issues before with Magnum inverter/chargers not accepting AC input from certain generators. In one case, it would not charge from a Honda 3kw cube, but worked fine with camp’s Honda 2kw. Magnum said it was a Honda problem, Honda said it was a Magnum problem. We ended up just rearranging generators and inverters between camps. Weird, we never detected anything odd in voltage or frequency from any of the generators. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 11:39 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it > was installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out > the door on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. > Electrician just had to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, > AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The > site is a 3 hour trip each way. The electrician was baffled, he had > experience installing solar but very limited so I went to the site to see > what the problem was. After spending a day checking out the inverter with > two different generators, checking all the connections, AC at the inputs at > the inverter and at the outputs on the breakers, and even removed the cover > from the inverter to make sure some connections had not shaken loose inside > the box on the long bumpy road into the property. Everything checked out. > So assuming the AC board in the inverter was faulty I ordered a new unit to > replace and that has now been done. SAME PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s > possible that the Magnum remote monitor could be the problem. It functions > properly on every setting but is it possible there is an internal fault? > Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from initiating? Seems unlikely > to me because the inverter can go into charge mode even without the > monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between the monitor > and inverter but no luck. > > The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion > 3.8kW. Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of > generators in the past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we > don’t have it yet to test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. > Output to the house on bypass is consistent and without problem. > > Any suggestions - this is just confounding. > > Ron > > > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Oct 31 13:08:28 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:08:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem In-Reply-To: References: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Dan, Since you are using 120Vac for the source, did you connect to just 1 AC input; AC1 or AC2? You can not parallel same phase to both inputs or damage may occur. Have you measured the generator frequency and voltage at the inverter input? Make sure to reduce the charge rate to 50% or less when supplying 120V only. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:56 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote: I have had issues before with Magnum inverter/chargers not accepting AC input from certain generators. In one case, it would not charge from a Honda 3kw cube, but worked fine with camp’s Honda 2kw. Magnum said it was a Honda problem, Honda said it was a Magnum problem. We ended up just rearranging generators and inverters between camps. Weird, we never detected anything odd in voltage or frequency from any of the generators. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 11:39 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it was installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out the door on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. Electrician just had to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The site is a 3 hour trip each way. The electrician was baffled, he had experience installing solar but very limited so I went to the site to see what the problem was. After spending a day checking out the inverter with two different generators, checking all the connections, AC at the inputs at the inverter and at the outputs on the breakers, and even removed the cover from the inverter to make sure some connections had not shaken loose inside the box on the long bumpy road into the property. Everything checked out. So assuming the AC board in the inverter was faulty I ordered a new unit to replace and that has now been done. SAME PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s possible that the Magnum remote monitor could be the problem. It functions properly on every setting but is it possible there is an internal fault? Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from initiating? Seems unlikely to me because the inverter can go into charge mode even without the monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between the monitor and inverter but no luck. The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion 3.8kW. Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of generators in the past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we don’t have it yet to test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. Output to the house on bypass is consistent and without problem. Any suggestions - this is just confounding. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 13:09:12 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:09:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem In-Reply-To: References: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Have you checked those little pop out breakers up near the wiring compartment? Have you tried "force bulk"? On Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 10:56 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I have had issues before with Magnum inverter/chargers not accepting AC > input from certain generators. In one case, it would not charge from a > Honda 3kw cube, but worked fine with camp’s Honda 2kw. Magnum said it was a > Honda problem, Honda said it was a Magnum problem. We ended up just > rearranging generators and inverters between camps. Weird, we never > detected anything odd in voltage or frequency from any of the generators. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 11:39 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it >> was installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out >> the door on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. >> Electrician just had to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, >> AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The >> site is a 3 hour trip each way. The electrician was baffled, he had >> experience installing solar but very limited so I went to the site to see >> what the problem was. After spending a day checking out the inverter with >> two different generators, checking all the connections, AC at the inputs at >> the inverter and at the outputs on the breakers, and even removed the cover >> from the inverter to make sure some connections had not shaken loose inside >> the box on the long bumpy road into the property. Everything checked out. >> So assuming the AC board in the inverter was faulty I ordered a new unit to >> replace and that has now been done. SAME PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s >> possible that the Magnum remote monitor could be the problem. It functions >> properly on every setting but is it possible there is an internal fault? >> Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from initiating? Seems unlikely >> to me because the inverter can go into charge mode even without the >> monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between the monitor >> and inverter but no luck. >> >> The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion >> 3.8kW. Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of >> generators in the past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we >> don’t have it yet to test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. >> Output to the house on bypass is consistent and without problem. >> >> Any suggestions - this is just confounding. >> >> Ron >> >> >> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Oct 31 13:10:18 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:10:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem In-Reply-To: References: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Sorry Dan, I meant Ron. On Oct 31, 2023, at 11:08 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote: Dan, Since you are using 120Vac for the source, did you connect to just 1 AC input; AC1 or AC2? You can not parallel same phase to both inputs or damage may occur. Have you measured the generator frequency and voltage at the inverter input? Make sure to reduce the charge rate to 50% or less when supplying 120V only. Larry Crutcher Starlight Power Systems On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:56 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches > wrote: I have had issues before with Magnum inverter/chargers not accepting AC input from certain generators. In one case, it would not charge from a Honda 3kw cube, but worked fine with camp’s Honda 2kw. Magnum said it was a Honda problem, Honda said it was a Magnum problem. We ended up just rearranging generators and inverters between camps. Weird, we never detected anything odd in voltage or frequency from any of the generators. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate danbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 11:39 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it was installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out the door on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. Electrician just had to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The site is a 3 hour trip each way. The electrician was baffled, he had experience installing solar but very limited so I went to the site to see what the problem was. After spending a day checking out the inverter with two different generators, checking all the connections, AC at the inputs at the inverter and at the outputs on the breakers, and even removed the cover from the inverter to make sure some connections had not shaken loose inside the box on the long bumpy road into the property. Everything checked out. So assuming the AC board in the inverter was faulty I ordered a new unit to replace and that has now been done. SAME PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s possible that the Magnum remote monitor could be the problem. It functions properly on every setting but is it possible there is an internal fault? Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from initiating? Seems unlikely to me because the inverter can go into charge mode even without the monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between the monitor and inverter but no luck. The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion 3.8kW. Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of generators in the past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we don’t have it yet to test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. Output to the house on bypass is consistent and without problem. Any suggestions - this is just confounding. Ron earthRight Products - Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Tue Oct 31 14:10:40 2023 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Richard Nicol) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 13:10:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 17:12:59 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 15:12:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <0EFC4839-D4E4-4A88-AC07-326A588451CE@gmail.com> References: <0EFC4839-D4E4-4A88-AC07-326A588451CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: You could ask the wrenches bout how to make the window wider? I don’t know jay > On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:14 AM, Jay wrote: > > Is the radian connected to grid sell? > > If so then I’d say yes the higher grid voltage is preventing connection. > > Jay > >> On Oct 31, 2023, at 9:35 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>  >> Jay, >> >> It was a problem that surfaced before. Outback tech support was unable to figure it out. Then, the problem went away. Recently it showed up again. >> >> For the last couple of days it has been connecting normally. The voltage has been 250 VAC or lower. >> >> I know that most direct grid tie inverters can go to 264 V. I wondered if the Radian might be limiting voltage to protect loads. Just a theory based on the reading of 251 and higher when the inverter would not connect. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> Athens Electric LLC >> >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2023-10-30 20:37, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >>> >>> Drake I forgot to ask, but I'm thinking this is a new problem on an older system that was working normally? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 30, 2023, at 11:15 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm not familiar with Outback defaults but most inverters I've dealt with have a grid tolerance of 10% +/- so 216 to 264VAC. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 6:57 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> Hi Jay, >>>> >>>> The inverter won't even connect to the grid. It stays in the state where it is sampling the grid, AC in light blinking. >>>> >>>> Is the default high voltage for the nominal 240 V 280? (IE 140 V X 2). >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for your help. >>>> >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> >>>> Drake Chamberlin >>>> >>>> Athens Electric LLC >>>> >>>> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >>>> >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2023-10-29 15:45, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi drake >>>> >>>> The early mate 3 has a glitch which I think they changed in the 3s. >>>> >>>> You e got to set the rebulk volts above what you want it to charge at. >>>> >>>> IE if the battery volts don't get below the rebulk volts it won't charge. >>>> >>>> So if your shallow cycling the batteries it's common it won't get below the rebulk volts. If you're deep cycling it usually will with default settings >>>> >>>> The default high voltage window for ac input is default at 140v. >>>> >>>> Hope this helps >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 29, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches > wrote: >>>> >>>> My Radian GS 8048 intermittently will connect to the grid to charge batteries. The grid voltage seems to run high around here. Yesterday, it wouldn't connect. The grid voltage was at 251 V. Later it did connect. At that point the grid was at 246 V. >>>> >>>> I am suspecting that the Radian has a voltage acceptance limit of 250 V. Is that true? Is it possible to open up the window? >>>> >>>> If that isn't it, what could be the problem? >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Drake >>>> >>>> Drake Chamberlin >>>> >>>> Athens Electric LLC >>>> >>>> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >>>> >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 22:10:04 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 19:10:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem In-Reply-To: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> References: <5C1258DB-5285-4CD5-BA61-431AC426CA9D@solareagle.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Ron First l would think tech support already asked you this but. I have seen this with outback, What is the incoming voltage and freq, the Honda should be fine but the other hard to say. Frequency is very important to be right otherwise the inverter will sit and wait, voltage not as much. Your inverter is a 240 vac right, are the gennys also? You might want to make sure its in Gen input not grid input, gen is wider. With your little gennys it might latch up and disconnect quickly due to either going out of range. With gennys always use a pf of .8 and go down from there so a 3 k genny charging should be around 1200 watts. Funtimes On Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 9:38 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it > was installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out > the door on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. > Electrician just had to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, > AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The > site is a 3 hour trip each way. The electrician was baffled, he had > experience installing solar but very limited so I went to the site to see > what the problem was. After spending a day checking out the inverter with > two different generators, checking all the connections, AC at the inputs at > the inverter and at the outputs on the breakers, and even removed the cover > from the inverter to make sure some connections had not shaken loose inside > the box on the long bumpy road into the property. Everything checked out. > So assuming the AC board in the inverter was faulty I ordered a new unit to > replace and that has now been done. SAME PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s > possible that the Magnum remote monitor could be the problem. It functions > properly on every setting but is it possible there is an internal fault? > Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from initiating? Seems unlikely > to me because the inverter can go into charge mode even without the > monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between the monitor > and inverter but no luck. > > The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion > 3.8kW. Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of > generators in the past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we > don’t have it yet to test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. > Output to the house on bypass is consistent and without problem. > > Any suggestions - this is just confounding. > > Ron > > > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Wed Nov 1 00:26:52 2023 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2023 22:26:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Nov 1 11:36:01 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2023 11:36:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <0EFC4839-D4E4-4A88-AC07-326A588451CE@gmail.com> References: <0EFC4839-D4E4-4A88-AC07-326A588451CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b01d2256287408ff3f72875a89c49c0@redwoodalliance.org> It isn't in sell mode. The system is 2 or 3 years old, and has had this issue before. Outback couldn't figure it out, and then is started working normally. --- _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ On 2023-10-31 12:14, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > Is the radian connected to grid sell? > > If so then I'd say yes the higher grid voltage is preventing connection. > > Jay > >> On Oct 31, 2023, at 9:35 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Jay, > > It was a problem that surfaced before. Outback tech support was unable to figure it out. Then, the problem went away. Recently it showed up again. > > For the last couple of days it has been connecting normally. The voltage has been 250 VAC or lower. > > I know that most direct grid tie inverters can go to 264 V. I wondered if the Radian might be limiting voltage to protect loads. Just a theory based on the reading of 251 and higher when the inverter would not connect. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2023-10-30 20:37, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Drake I forgot to ask, but I'm thinking this is a new problem on an older system that was working normally? > > Jay > > On Oct 30, 2023, at 11:15 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm not familiar with Outback defaults but most inverters I've dealt with have a grid tolerance of 10% +/- so 216 to 264VAC. > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 6:57 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > The inverter won't even connect to the grid. It stays in the state where it is sampling the grid, AC in light blinking. > > Is the default high voltage for the nominal 240 V 280? (IE 140 V X 2). > > Thanks for your help. > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2023-10-29 15:45, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi drake > > The early mate 3 has a glitch which I think they changed in the 3s. > > You e got to set the rebulk volts above what you want it to charge at. > > IE if the battery volts don't get below the rebulk volts it won't charge. > > So if your shallow cycling the batteries it's common it won't get below the rebulk volts. If you're deep cycling it usually will with default settings > > The default high voltage window for ac input is default at 140v. > > Hope this helps > > Jay > > On Oct 29, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > My Radian GS 8048 intermittently will connect to the grid to charge batteries. The grid voltage seems to run high around here. Yesterday, it wouldn't connect. The grid voltage was at 251 V. Later it did connect. At that point the grid was at 246 V. > > I am suspecting that the Radian has a voltage acceptance limit of 250 V. Is that true? Is it possible to open up the window? > > If that isn't it, what could be the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Nov 1 11:47:07 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2023 09:47:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: <5b01d2256287408ff3f72875a89c49c0@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5b01d2256287408ff3f72875a89c49c0@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Wed Nov 1 19:48:36 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2023 17:48:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld modules sought In-Reply-To: <2FC2B1E9-9721-4E18-819A-B00F074E4351@pacific.net> References: <2FC2B1E9-9721-4E18-819A-B00F074E4351@pacific.net> Message-ID: <001d01da0d1d$eeedde70$ccc99b50$@OasisMontana.com> Dear people: I’ve got a fella looking for three each of the Sunmodule Plus 260 panels or Solarworld SW 260 mono panels. Got anything? I suspect used would be fine. Please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks and stay warm! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Nov 1 21:16:14 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2023 21:16:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Question In-Reply-To: References: <1C8A48B6-8D33-417A-8A43-AEF22E88DD04@gmail.com> Message-ID: Follow up: The charger on the Radian connected to the grid at 252 VAC today. It appears that it is random when the inverter will connect. The AC grid voltage does not appear to be the issue. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-10-31 11:34, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jay, > > It was a problem that surfaced before. Outback tech support was unable to figure it out. Then, the problem went away. Recently it showed up again. > > For the last couple of days it has been connecting normally. The voltage has been 250 VAC or lower. > > I know that most direct grid tie inverters can go to 264 V. I wondered if the Radian might be limiting voltage to protect loads. Just a theory based on the reading of 251 and higher when the inverter would not connect. > > Thanks, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2023-10-30 20:37, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Drake I forgot to ask, but I'm thinking this is a new problem on an older system that was working normally? > > Jay > > On Oct 30, 2023, at 11:15 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm not familiar with Outback defaults but most inverters I've dealt with have a grid tolerance of 10% +/- so 216 to 264VAC. > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 6:57 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi Jay, > > The inverter won't even connect to the grid. It stays in the state where it is sampling the grid, AC in light blinking. > > Is the default high voltage for the nominal 240 V 280? (IE 140 V X 2). > > Thanks for your help. > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > --- > > On 2023-10-29 15:45, Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hi drake > > The early mate 3 has a glitch which I think they changed in the 3s. > > You e got to set the rebulk volts above what you want it to charge at. > > IE if the battery volts don't get below the rebulk volts it won't charge. > > So if your shallow cycling the batteries it's common it won't get below the rebulk volts. If you're deep cycling it usually will with default settings > > The default high voltage window for ac input is default at 140v. > > Hope this helps > > Jay > > On Oct 29, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > > My Radian GS 8048 intermittently will connect to the grid to charge batteries. The grid voltage seems to run high around here. Yesterday, it wouldn't connect. The grid voltage was at 251 V. Later it did connect. At that point the grid was at 246 V. > > I am suspecting that the Radian has a voltage acceptance limit of 250 V. Is that true? Is it possible to open up the window? > > If that isn't it, what could be the problem? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > _Drake Chamberlin_ > > _Athens Electric LLC_ > > _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ > > _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Fri Nov 3 00:19:41 2023 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2023 18:19:41 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark phantom loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don, We have had this happen when you auto calibrate the CT's and the CTs aren't properly positioned to see exported energy from the Sol-Ark inverter. Couple other times it took several calibrations and messing with opening and closing the cts and double checking splices on extensions of CTS. Good luck! Roland Shackelford President / Owner NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 O 808.775.7410 | M 808.938.9239 | 45-487 Lehua St Honokaa, HI 96727 Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 11:18 AM don energysolarnow.com via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Just spent yesterday debugging a Sol-Ark 15 kW inverter phantom load > weirdness. > With Work Mode set at Limited Power To Home it seemed to get a bit schizo, > pulling around 6kW in from the grid on leg L1 and around 13 kW on the other > L2 leg, with 7kW of PV added. No house loads were involved. The monitoring > called this a 13 kW load. > I measured something like 50 amps on L2 and neutral; 120 Volts on L1 and > 125 Volts on L2 at the house. My Fluke clamp-on amp meter does not say > which way AC current is flowing. The utility meter showed it as power > coming in. > At the main meter panel about 150 ft away from the house the voltages were > better balanced; probably due to proximity to the utility transformer. > Those leg voltages were balanced when the inverter was shut down. > Oddly, this phantom loading decreased with decreasing PV production later > in the day. > Working with Sol-Ark tech support we (of course) downloaded new firmware, > then changed Work Mode to Limited Power To Load. After a couple of resets > this had the effect of allowing the inverter to cover just the loads in the > battery-backed subpanel; not those at the house main panel where the CT > sensors are located. The phantom 13kW load has not recurred. > Has anyone seen an inverter try to mix import and export on different legs > by creating phantom loads? > > Don Barch > Energy Solar > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at seesolar.com Fri Nov 3 21:23:10 2023 From: max at seesolar.com (Max Balchowsky) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2023 18:23:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaii projects Message-ID: Hi wrenches, i spoke with someone in Hawaii awhile back and i can’t find my notes or the email. I have a couple of projects on kauai coming up and need to speak with an installer over there. Thanks, Max Balchowsky SEE Systems 760-403-6810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Sat Nov 4 09:02:30 2023 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 13:02:30 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaii projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Max, One possibility: Roland Shackelford President / Owner NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 O 808.775.7410 | M 808.938.9239 | 45-487 Lehua St Honokaa, HI 96727 Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Inaugural Certified PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at SunstruckConsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (mobile) From: Max Balchowsky via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 9:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Max Balchowsky Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaii projects Hi wrenches, i spoke with someone in Hawaii awhile back and i can’t find my notes or the email. I have a couple of projects on kauai coming up and need to speak with an installer over there. Thanks, Max Balchowsky SEE Systems 760-403-6810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 09:45:22 2023 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:45:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Diesel generator recommendation off-grid Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a reliable diesel generator that starts well in the 10-20kW range? Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Nov 4 09:52:56 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 08:52:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Diesel generator recommendation off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: cropped-c5d83fba-4ea0-11ea-b82f-a0369f10330e-180x180.png Type: image/png Size: 10389 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 10:14:07 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 08:14:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Diesel generator recommendation off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It depends a lot on the what you want. open chassis sound enclosed super quite tier 4 prime/standby built in 2 wire start etc. MQ power make great units. https://www.mqpower.com/whisperwatt.html jay > On Nov 4, 2023, at 7:45 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a reliable diesel generator that starts well in the 10-20kW range? > > Thanks! > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Sat Nov 4 10:35:32 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (dana at solarwork.com) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 08:35:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Diesel generator recommendation off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02e301da0f2c$2b3a7540$81af5fc0$@solarwork.com> Wildcat power ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches" Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Diesel generator recommendation off-grid Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:45:22 -0600 Size: 7210 URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 12:34:14 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 09:34:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Diesel generator recommendation off-grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First is it a prime mover or stand by? New or used? You know that's really to small for a diesel and after you take the duty cycle in to it you are 6 to 14 kw here are some options in a 25 k version. KOHLER makes a nice unit DOOSAN makes a good unit TAYLOR does also. All of theses can be made 3 or single phase and yes most of my units in the field are 3 phase for water pumping. Anyway China also has some on the market but buyer beware can't get parts for some of them. On Sat, Nov 4, 2023, 6:45 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a reliable diesel generator that starts well in the > 10-20kW range? > > Thanks! > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com Sat Nov 4 15:49:51 2023 From: thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com (Thomas Hall) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:49:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaii projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8353D1A4-7950-4851-88E6-5E727F82D2AB@solarspecialtygroup.com> Hi Max Balchowsky. It’s been a couple decades since I have seen you. Hope you are well. Roland Shackelford is on the wrong island. Roland’s company is on Big Island. Kauai island has a few contractors. Try Doug Phillips at Solar Plus INC (808) 639-7646. There are others, not to say Roland won’t work on other islands. I myself am on island of Oahu. Good to see you are still in solar. Give me a call. Thomas Hall Solar Specialty Group Www.solarspecialtygroup.com Thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com 808-854-9539 NABCEP PV Installation Professional Sent from my iPhone On Nov 4, 2023, at 3:03 AM, Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches wrote:  HI Max, One possibility: Roland Shackelford President / Owner NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 O 808.775.7410 | M 808.938.9239 | 45-487 Lehua St Honokaa, HI 96727 Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy NABCEP Inaugural Certified PV Installer Emeritus Director, Sunstruck Consulting Lloyd at SunstruckConsulting.com 845-657-8132 (office) 914-844-3404 (mobile) From: Max Balchowsky via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, November 3, 2023 9:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Max Balchowsky Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaii projects Hi wrenches, i spoke with someone in Hawaii awhile back and i can’t find my notes or the email. I have a couple of projects on kauai coming up and need to speak with an installer over there. Thanks, Max Balchowsky SEE Systems 760-403-6810 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 15:01:34 2023 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 14:01:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating In-Reply-To: <2daacc63-79cd-4e8c-adfe-2bce489525c4@sindelarsolar.com> References: <003001da0781$4e0e5a30$ea2b0e90$@solarwork.com> <2daacc63-79cd-4e8c-adfe-2bce489525c4@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Great site, Allan, but many facts still need to be included. Was there a discharge or charge going on? How much power was being drawn by the heaters? If this is for a standalone system, energy consumption is very important. What is the lower temperature cell discharge limit of Blue Planet? What concern was taken for the summer and overheating? What are the blue planet-specific heat and weight of the batteries? More questions, but I doubt if anyone else is interested. Thank you. On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:49 AM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You might be able to get some ideas from this. It's worked well for me on > one job. > Allan > > On 10/25/2023 2:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new options > for heating LI batteries. > > > > I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian > 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now it > is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully generator > back up waiting on delivery currently. > > Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin. > > Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters > controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing in > with 3-4” of blue board Styrofoam…. > > > > Has anyone else done something similar? > > Has anyone done this & it did not work? > > > > Thought & suggestions….. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > RETIRED > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 15:27:26 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 15:27:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating In-Reply-To: References: <003001da0781$4e0e5a30$ea2b0e90$@solarwork.com> <2daacc63-79cd-4e8c-adfe-2bce489525c4@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Daryl, Being in Vermont and dealing with lots of off-grid, occasional use systems, I'm definitely interested in others' experience with cold weather installations. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher On Sun, Nov 5, 2023 at 3:03 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Great site, Allan, but many facts still need to be included. Was there a > discharge or charge going on? How much power was being drawn by the > heaters? If this is for a standalone system, energy consumption is very > important. What is the lower temperature cell discharge limit of Blue > Planet? What concern was taken for the summer and overheating? What are > the blue planet-specific heat and weight of the batteries? More questions, > but I doubt if anyone else is interested. Thank you. > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:49 AM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> You might be able to get some ideas from this. It's worked well for me on >> one job. >> Allan >> >> On 10/25/2023 2:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new >> options for heating LI batteries. >> >> >> >> I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian >> 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now it >> is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully generator >> back up waiting on delivery currently. >> >> Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin. >> >> Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters >> controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing in >> with 3-4” of blue board Styrofoam…. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else done something similar? >> >> Has anyone done this & it did not work? >> >> >> >> Thought & suggestions….. >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> RETIRED >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at abundantsolar.com Sun Nov 5 16:15:14 2023 From: kirk at abundantsolar.com (Kirk Bailey) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 13:15:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating In-Reply-To: References: <003001da0781$4e0e5a30$ea2b0e90$@solarwork.com> <2daacc63-79cd-4e8c-adfe-2bce489525c4@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Something else to consider is that many of the modern LFP batteries use a relatively large amount of power just to keep the internal BMS/contactor(s) energized, independent of whether the battery is being charged/discharged. For example, I believe the Fortress eFlex 5.4's use on the order of 12-20 W continuously, *each*. A stack of four generates a significant amount of heat from this alone! Cheers, Kirk Bailey kirk at abundantsolar.com On Sun, Nov 5, 2023 at 12:28 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Daryl, > Being in Vermont and dealing with lots of off-grid, occasional use > systems, I'm definitely interested in others' experience with cold weather > installations. > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > > > > On Sun, Nov 5, 2023 at 3:03 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Great site, Allan, but many facts still need to be included. Was there a >> discharge or charge going on? How much power was being drawn by the >> heaters? If this is for a standalone system, energy consumption is very >> important. What is the lower temperature cell discharge limit of Blue >> Planet? What concern was taken for the summer and overheating? What are >> the blue planet-specific heat and weight of the batteries? More questions, >> but I doubt if anyone else is interested. Thank you. >> >> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:49 AM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> You might be able to get some ideas from this. It's worked well for me >>> on one job. >>> Allan >>> >>> On 10/25/2023 2:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new >>> options for heating LI batteries. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian >>> 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now it >>> is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully generator >>> back up waiting on delivery currently. >>> >>> Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin. >>> >>> Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters >>> controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing in >>> with 3-4” of blue board Styrofoam…. >>> >>> >>> >>> Has anyone else done something similar? >>> >>> Has anyone done this & it did not work? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thought & suggestions….. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >>> >>> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >>> >>> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >>> >>> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> RETIRED >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sun Nov 5 17:02:09 2023 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 16:02:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F266025-3304-4FAC-95A9-700B83A18AB8@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Nov 5 18:01:50 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 15:01:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home grid stacked battery heating In-Reply-To: <2F266025-3304-4FAC-95A9-700B83A18AB8@sindelarsolar.com> References: <2F266025-3304-4FAC-95A9-700B83A18AB8@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have also used the turtle heater and it's just enough to keep everything up and operating. Insulation and a warm thermal mass makes it all hold together Funtimes Jerry On Sun, Nov 5, 2023, 2:03 PM Allan Sindelar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I did this modification to a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP bank during installation, > following this guide, Darryl. Blue Planet had sent me this. Shortly after > initial installation a plumber had installed an electric space heater in an > unheated space with water pipes, which of course soon drained the batteries > to LVD, so the BMS had shut them down. The BMS won’t accept a charge until > the batteries were about 1 1/2 degrees F above freezing. I did a winter > service call and worked with BP tech support. I plugged the same space > heater into a portable gennie and pointed it to the batteries, and as soon > as the BMS registered above freezing it allowed recharge from the array. > As I recall, besides the bubble/Mylar insulation (which was surprisingly > easy to install) the system used an 18w terrarium heating pad in the bottom > shelf under the batteries and a 9w pad on the upper shelf, controlled by an > external freeze-prevention thermostat. With a sufficient whole-house array > it’s proven to be a negligible load. > It’s a standalone system. I don’t recall the low-temperature discharge > limit; it’s quite a bit lower than the minimum charge temperature. And > summer heating is irrelevant with the thermostat. The rest you can get from > Blue Planet. > Allan > > On Nov 5, 2023, at 2:03 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Great site, Allan, but many facts still need to be included. Was there a > discharge or charge going on? How much power was being drawn by the > heaters? If this is for a standalone system, energy consumption is very > important. What is the lower temperature cell discharge limit of Blue > Planet? What concern was taken for the summer and overheating? What are > the blue planet-specific heat and weight of the batteries? More questions, > but I doubt if anyone else is interested. Thank you. > > On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:49 AM Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> You might be able to get some ideas from this. It's worked well for me on >> one job. >> Allan >> >> On 10/25/2023 2:24 PM, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I know we have had this run thru before & wanted to see if any new >> options for heating LI batteries. >> >> >> >> I have an 8 pack of Homegrid LI batteries that is off grid with Radian >> 8048a. Originally, they were not going to be there for the winter, now it >> is a possibility they may visit. Plenty of solar 6KW+, hopefully generator >> back up waiting on delivery currently. >> >> Currently located in main room high ceilings/log cabin. >> >> Looking at creating an insulated closet & using terrarium heaters >> controlled if over 51volt heater on AC from inverter. Or just boxing in >> with 3-4” of blue board Styrofoam…. >> >> >> >> Has anyone else done something similar? >> >> Has anyone done this & it did not work? >> >> >> >> Thought & suggestions….. >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> >> Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! >> >> C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com >> >> W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com >> >> *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> RETIRED >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 11:22:34 2023 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 06:22:34 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaii projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha Max, I operate out of Oahu as well. I do hear good things about this company on Kauai. Nathan Wood General Contractor, LLC 1595 Haleukana St. Kapaa , Hawaii 96766 808.821.9564 https://www.nathanwoodgc.com Good luck with your projects and let us know if you happen to need any other help. Mahalo, James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-39784 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Fri, Nov 3, 2023 at 3:24 PM Max Balchowsky via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi wrenches, i spoke with someone in Hawaii awhile back and i can’t find > my notes or the email. I have a couple of projects on kauai coming up and > need to speak with an installer over there. > > Thanks, > Max Balchowsky > SEE Systems > 760-403-6810 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 12:24:04 2023 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 10:24:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hawaii projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09FC5598-73A4-4CA1-A320-B1E1C65DC943@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue Nov 7 15:12:31 2023 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 14:12:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] EG4 18kPV Correction - does have frequency shift AC Coupling Message-ID: <07d5127d-0aff-da58-025e-c39f47add0b7@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Folks, Just wanted to make a correction on the EG418kPV of a statement made during the AC Coupling thread. The EG4 18kPV does have frequency shift based AC Coupling.  The confusion comes from the fact that like Sol-Ark there is a SOC set-point override feature for AC Coupling but the video William referred to seemed to imply it is the only control. It is not and EG4 is fixing this video. William Miller wrote: EG4: I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function. Hope that helps, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design www.villagepowerdesign.com > William Miller via RE-wrenches > October 28, 2023 at 10:49 PM > > Jay: > > I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to > operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the > battery inverter AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see > correct voltage and frequency before it can start up.  How else could > this work? > > I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look > to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just > reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra > output.  All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  > Here is more information from each of the manufacturers: > > Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen > input to an output and make that your connection point.  “/A full AC > coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and > monitoring is limited.”/ > > EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an > EG4 inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just > like the Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an > output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC > reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift > function.  The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do > provide a video > . > > Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input > for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual/:  It > is forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. > /That is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an > input. > > So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery > inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to > be an output.  In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage > control of AC-coupled battery charging. > > I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the > battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to > shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  > This is a work-around, not a design.  In each and every one of these > systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery > charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery > charging like a DC charge controller can. > > When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain > conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this > article. > > There are limited advantages to AC coupling: > > ·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This is > no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers. > > ·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has > grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most > batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm > provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this. > > In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest > inverters is a crude affair.  I am not a fan. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com ] > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com ; > RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling > > I’m going to both agree and disagree > > Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is > correct. > > Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring > ac coupling into the inverter directly. > > Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel. > > And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are > not designed for ac coupling. > > Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any > internal control and required external relay control to prevent > overcharge. > > Newer versions of Schneider, OB, have  frequently shift which works > with newer gt inverters to address the ac coupling overcharge > concerns. While creating potential new issues for loads with up to 64 hz. > > Jay > > > > On Oct 28, 2023, at 2:15 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From George.McClellan at recgroup.com Wed Nov 8 12:06:07 2023 From: George.McClellan at recgroup.com (George McClellan) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 17:06:07 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? Message-ID: Team; With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated. Thx, George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 8 12:13:30 2023 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 09:13:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi George, It's good to see you're still with REC. I'd assume this would fall under the purview of UL rather than NEC. Anything that meets UL will pass NEC. With temperature derates I think you'd have had to go to larger wire long ago to meet NEC standards. It might be good to go to a larger wire to keep V drop low. Brad Bassett retired, but still interested. On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 9:07 AM George McClellan via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Team; > > > > With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing > the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar > derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will > exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the > homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module > cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or > reference material would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thx, > > > > George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC > > 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA > > Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 > > www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any > unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this > message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please > notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Nov 8 12:13:39 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 09:13:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: George: Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance. By appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *George McClellan via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* George McClellan *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? Team; With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated. Thx, George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com ------------------------------ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From George.McClellan at recgroup.com Wed Nov 8 12:36:10 2023 From: George.McClellan at recgroup.com (George McClellan) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 17:36:10 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excellent. Thanks for the update! George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:14 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? George: Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance. By appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of George McClellan via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: George McClellan Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? Team; With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated. Thx, George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Nov 8 12:37:05 2023 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Starlight) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 10:37:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AE0F4E4-2E47-4A81-ABDC-772A1B811BB7@starlightsolar.com> Choosing a higher insulation rating for the wire will increase current capability, if that works in your case. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 8, 2023, at 10:06 AM, George McClellan via RE-wrenches wrote: Team; With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated. Thx, George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Nov 8 16:23:27 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 13:23:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big Ag water In-Reply-To: <5AE0F4E4-2E47-4A81-ABDC-772A1B811BB7@starlightsolar.com> References: <5AE0F4E4-2E47-4A81-ABDC-772A1B811BB7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Ag water wrenches,             I've been asked about the feasibility of pumping 2,000 gallons/minute (mid-day) from a pond to open discharge at 40 feet of head, 1,000 ft run.  PV direct. Multiple Grundfos pumps? Any experience appreciated Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Nov 8 16:46:55 2023 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 16:46:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] in need of a Bergey XL.1 controller, 24vdc Message-ID: G'day All, Had one of my clients burn up a controller on an offgrid system. It is an XL.1 24 Vdc unit, early 2000 circa. The resistor dump unit and turbine itself appear to be fine. I've attached a few pictures of the damaged controller for your viewing pleasure. Apparently the newer controllers require a stator upgrade which the client doesn't want to do. If anyone has a spare unit gathering dust I'd be happy to purchase it. Thanks bunches, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20230822_104530.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 198060 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20230822_104544.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 287045 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20230822_104558.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 300057 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Nov 8 16:54:19 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 16:54:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] in need of a Bergey XL.1 controller, 24vdc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a customer who replaced the XL controller with a Midnite Solar controller, using the dump load function. SO IMO you don't need to find the original necessarily. Not up on Midnite controllers, so can't give you specifics now, but can find out the details. On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 4:47 PM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > G'day All, > > Had one of my clients burn up a controller on an offgrid system. It is an > XL.1 24 Vdc unit, early 2000 circa. The resistor dump unit and turbine > itself appear to be fine. I've attached a few pictures of the damaged > controller for your viewing pleasure. Apparently the newer controllers > require a stator upgrade which the client doesn't want to do. If anyone has > a spare unit gathering dust I'd be happy to purchase it. > > Thanks bunches, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Nov 8 19:57:30 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2023 16:57:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big Ag water In-Reply-To: References: <5AE0F4E4-2E47-4A81-ABDC-772A1B811BB7@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Just did one. You have to do the math for costing the grid, a genset, and solar direct. The genset usually wins if the grid is not an option. You can easily find/replace pumps that are not solar direct. If you do the solar, you still need a genset and the electronics to support it. It is not an easy thing to do if someone is not living there. Most Ag run big gensets if no grid is available. If you can add the grid, it will improve the property for the owner. Not sure about that in California anymore. Happy Hour ! Good luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3] [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-11-08 1:23 pm, Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches wrote: > Ag water wrenches, > > I've been asked about the feasibility of pumping 2,000 gallons/minute > (mid-day) from a pond to open discharge at 40 feet of head, 1,000 ft > run. PV direct. Multiple Grundfos pumps? Any experience appreciated > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > [1] > Virus-free.www.avast.com [1] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From windydankoff at mac.com Wed Nov 8 21:38:34 2023 From: windydankoff at mac.com (Windy Dankoff) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2023 19:38:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Big Ag water In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D7528DA-D8DA-4156-8D12-EBB698C1C209@mac.com> You will not find a specific "solar pump" in that range, but that's normal. Pick the best standard 3PH pump that you can, through local channels - NOT with variable frequency drive. The solar controller will be your VFD. Nowadays, any pump motor is almost sure to be "inverter rated" for use with VFD. Be sure it is. When picking the pump, you would normally pick one that is working around the peak of its efficiency curve at the TDH that you need (including pipe loss). In this case, pick one that peaks efficiency at least 20% higher TDH, so it will perform relatively well at reduced speeds. Remember, the pipe friction will greatly reduce at lower flow, so that's on your side. Next, find a controller, also know as "solar pump inverter". Numerous companies make them, Grundfos, Lorentz, etc. The Chinese have done much of the pioneering on these, so some of them are good. I don't know who to send you to, but welcome you to keep in touch with me. Regarding array design, I can give you the general equation for pumping power if you need, based on best-guess pump efficiency. Otherwise, locate the pump and read the power requirement. We (my co-authors) are generally recommending at least 40% oversize on the array. Tracking or further oversizing is very advantageous because centrifugal pumps loose efficiency rapidly as they slow down. Tracking OR a double E-W facing array will allow use of a smaller pump AND smaller pipe, which may be a big saving if adequate pipe is not already in place. The double array is also called "fixed tracking" - can be economical if PV cost is low enough. I hope this will lead you in a good direction. Wind Dankoff The Handbook of Solar Water Pumping (to be published next year) Co-author From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Nov 9 17:02:35 2023 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 17:02:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <069b01da1358$73aa2070$5afe6150$@glbcc.com> Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught on fire because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no responsibility for it… It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get some on them… From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? George: Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance. By appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of George McClellan via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: George McClellan Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? Team; With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated. Thx, George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com _____ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 9 18:47:01 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 16:47:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: <069b01da1358$73aa2070$5afe6150$@glbcc.com> References: <069b01da1358$73aa2070$5afe6150$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: 12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors might.  I just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a bad series MC connector (module to module).  It got quite crispy, deforming and bubbling the plastic on both sides of the connection.  It was still passing current; I didn't get a chance to measure the volt drop.  It was completely plugged in, so not an installation issue. This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules.  That also means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+  hotter than ambient temp, all are tough on connectors.  I predict more connector failures as module current ratings increase. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught on > fire because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no responsibility > for it… > > It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get > some on them… > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *William Miller via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? > NEC interpretation/guidance? > > George: > > Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the > same as the NEC requirements.  As long as you are not modifying the > manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that > appliance.  By appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] > *On Behalf Of *George McClellan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* George McClellan > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC > interpretation/guidance? > > Team; > > With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is > pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire.  If I apply the rule of 156% (or > 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module > this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry.  I understand > that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the > solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be > larger?  Any guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated. > > Thx, > > George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC > > 330 James Way Ste 150| Pismo Beach, CA 93449| USA > > Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 > > www.recgroup.com | > george.mcclellan at recgroup.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any > unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this > message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, > please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Nov 9 18:57:03 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 16:57:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: amphenol_connectors.png Type: image/png Size: 41782 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Nov 9 19:03:45 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 19:03:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fascinating. I emailed the list a little while back asking if anyone knew of a way to make a warranty claim with Solarworld. We had a system with 36 of these panels, and basically every module to module connector was crispy and deformed as Ray mentioned. I never was successful in getting in touch with Solarworld, but we did go and replace the module connectors with MC4 on every module. Ray, I am curious whether you were able to get any help from SolarWorld, or whether you had to take it upon yourself to fix it. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Nov 9, 2023 at 6:58 PM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds like > about the right timeframe. > > BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectors > > pv-magazine-usa.com > > > > > > Brian > > On Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > 12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors might. I > just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a bad series MC > connector (module to module). It got quite crispy, deforming and bubbling > the plastic on both sides of the connection. It was still passing current; > I didn't get a chance to measure the volt drop. It was completely plugged > in, so not an installation issue. > > This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were > Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules. That also > means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. > > 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+ hotter than ambient temp, > all are tough on connectors. I predict more connector failures as module > current ratings increase. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught on fire > because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no responsibility for it… > > It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get some > on them… > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of *William Miller > via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC > interpretation/guidance? > > > > George: > > > > Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same > as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the manufactured > assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance. By > appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *George McClellan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* George McClellan > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC > interpretation/guidance? > > > > Team; > > > > With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing > the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar > derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will > exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the > homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module > cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or > reference material would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thx, > > > > George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC > > 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA > > Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 > > www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any > unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this > message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please > notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Nov 9 19:31:39 2023 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 17:31:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <169db263-84d9-46ef-b8ca-c93bd7088723@solarray.com> I'm trying to find a pic to post, but they were MC4 connectors, not the UTX. Ray On 11/9/2023 4:57 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds > like about the right timeframe. > > BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectors > > pv-magazine-usa.com > > > > > > Brian > >> On Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> 12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors >> might.  I just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a >> bad series MC connector (module to module).  It got quite crispy, >> deforming and bubbling the plastic on both sides of the connection.  >> It was still passing current; I didn't get a chance to measure the >> volt drop.  It was completely plugged in, so not an installation issue. >> >> This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were >> Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules.  >> That also means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. >> >> 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+  hotter than ambient >> temp, all are tough on connectors.  I predict more connector failures >> as module current ratings increase. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> >> On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught >>> on fire because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no >>> responsibility for it… >>> >>> It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get >>> some on them… >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>> Behalf Of *William Miller via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* William Miller >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? >>> NEC interpretation/guidance? >>> >>> George: >>> >>> Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the >>> same as the NEC requirements.  As long as you are not modifying the >>> manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that >>> appliance.  By appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of >>> *George McClellan via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* George McClellan >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC >>> interpretation/guidance? >>> >>> Team; >>> >>> With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is >>> pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire.  If I apply the rule of 156% (or >>> 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc >>> module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry.  I >>> understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), >>> but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need >>> to be larger? Any guidance or reference material would be greatly >>> appreciated. >>> >>> Thx, >>> >>> George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC >>> >>> 330 James Way Ste 150| Pismo Beach, CA 93449| USA >>> >>> Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 >>> >>> www.recgroup.com | >>> george.mcclellan at recgroup.com >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >>> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of >>> this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in >>> error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. >>> Thank you. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Nov 9 19:51:32 2023 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 17:51:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89CACD17-2169-4198-AC33-4AA36696913A@solarenergy.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 416366 bytes Desc: not available URL: From garrison.rie at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 21:28:00 2023 From: garrison.rie at gmail.com (Garrison) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 20:28:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: <169db263-84d9-46ef-b8ca-c93bd7088723@solarray.com> References: <169db263-84d9-46ef-b8ca-c93bd7088723@solarray.com> Message-ID: <8B1B33F1-14C3-457E-8C6F-DE6EEC74A822@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 537857 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Thu Nov 9 21:55:53 2023 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 02:55:53 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: <8B1B33F1-14C3-457E-8C6F-DE6EEC74A822@gmail.com> References: <169db263-84d9-46ef-b8ca-c93bd7088723@solarray.com> <8B1B33F1-14C3-457E-8C6F-DE6EEC74A822@gmail.com> Message-ID: Those are the Amphenol H4 connectors pictured, not the UTX version. Amphenol had issues with the plastic housings on both connectors and I saw more of the H4s fail than that of the UTX. Bryan PV-Cables Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Garrison via RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2023 6:28:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Garrison Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? I just replaced 34 pairs of connectors on SW modules that were installed in 2014 or so. Makes me a bit concerned for the many other installs out there. These were on a SunnyBoy that did it’s job and triggered and arc fault alert. The connector manufacturer seems to have tried to designed a melt-away logo but I think we can figure it out. [image0.jpeg] I see some O&M work in our future. Best, Garrison Riegel Celestar Solar On Nov 9, 2023, at 6:33 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  I'm trying to find a pic to post, but they were MC4 connectors, not the UTX. Ray On 11/9/2023 4:57 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds like about the right timeframe. [X] BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectors pv-magazine-usa.com Brian On Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors might. I just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a bad series MC connector (module to module). It got quite crispy, deforming and bubbling the plastic on both sides of the connection. It was still passing current; I didn't get a chance to measure the volt drop. It was completely plugged in, so not an installation issue. This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules. That also means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+ hotter than ambient temp, all are tough on connectors. I predict more connector failures as module current ratings increase. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught on fire because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no responsibility for it… It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get some on them… From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? George: Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance. By appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of George McClellan via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: George McClellan Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? Team; With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated. Thx, George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 537857 bytes Desc: image0.jpeg URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Nov 9 22:27:24 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 22:27:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] in need of a Bergey XL.1 controller, 24vdc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, I have a shelf full. Contact me off list. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com john.blittersdorf at gmail.com On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 4:47 PM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > G'day All, > > Had one of my clients burn up a controller on an offgrid system. It is an > XL.1 24 Vdc unit, early 2000 circa. The resistor dump unit and turbine > itself appear to be fine. I've attached a few pictures of the damaged > controller for your viewing pleasure. Apparently the newer controllers > require a stator upgrade which the client doesn't want to do. If anyone has > a spare unit gathering dust I'd be happy to purchase it. > > Thanks bunches, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Nov 10 01:24:01 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 22:24:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: <169db263-84d9-46ef-b8ca-c93bd7088723@solarray.com> References: <169db263-84d9-46ef-b8ca-c93bd7088723@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray,             Exactly the same thing happened for me on a ground mount system, 3500 feet elevation the the Sierras so open cooler air, fully engaged MC4 factory connectors PV to PV connectors with SW285's, not passing current, melted.  No attempt to contact SW just made up new connectors.             My calculation is with anything that is no doubt made up by the bazillion with a machine (connectors, light bulbs, pencils, chicken nuggets, etc) you're going to get some duds.  In 20+ years of installing PVs with factory made-up connectors, I've only seen this happen 2-3 times.  Installing in the mountains we no doubt use ground mount much more often than most installs in urban areas which would make a hot, melted connector possibly more of an issue a couple inches above a comp or wood roof.  We've never seen any connectors fail beyond the melted/deformed but still "contained" stage .             Back when SW was first transitioning from one connector to another, I remember them saying they (I think it was UTX and MC or was it UTX and Amphenol?) were compatible.  We NEVER mixed connectors despite their claim. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 11/9/2023 4:31 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm trying to find a pic to post, but they were MC4 connectors, not > the UTX. > > Ray > > On 11/9/2023 4:57 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds >> like about the right timeframe. >> >> BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectors >> >> pv-magazine-usa.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Brian >> >>> On Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> 12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors >>> might.  I just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a >>> bad series MC connector (module to module).  It got quite crispy, >>> deforming and bubbling the plastic on both sides of the connection. >>> It was still passing current; I didn't get a chance to measure the >>> volt drop.  It was completely plugged in, so not an installation issue. >>> >>> This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were >>> Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules.  >>> That also means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. >>> >>> 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+  hotter than ambient >>> temp, all are tough on connectors.  I predict more connector >>> failures as module current ratings increase. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> >>> On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>> >>>> Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught >>>> on fire because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no >>>> responsibility for it… >>>> >>>> It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody >>>> get some on them… >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >>>> Behalf Of *William Miller via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* William Miller >>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? >>>> NEC interpretation/guidance? >>>> >>>> George: >>>> >>>> Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not >>>> the same as the NEC requirements.  As long as you are not modifying >>>> the manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of >>>> that appliance.  By appliance, I mean the solar module, >>>> microinverter, etc. >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> *From:*RE-wrenches >>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of >>>> *George McClellan via RE-wrenches >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>>> *Cc:* George McClellan >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC >>>> interpretation/guidance? >>>> >>>> Team; >>>> >>>> With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is >>>> pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire.  If I apply the rule of 156% (or >>>> 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc >>>> module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry.  I >>>> understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), >>>> but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need >>>> to be larger?  Any guidance or reference material would be greatly >>>> appreciated. >>>> >>>> Thx, >>>> >>>> George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC >>>> >>>> 330 James Way Ste 150| Pismo Beach, CA 93449| USA >>>> >>>> Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 >>>> >>>> www.recgroup.com | >>>> george.mcclellan at recgroup.com >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >>>> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of >>>> this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in >>>> error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Nov 10 08:09:34 2023 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 08:09:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: <169db263-84d9-46ef-b8ca-c93bd7088723@solarray.com> Message-ID: I'd be curious to know of the connector failures y'all have experienced, were the majority of these roof mounts? Just wondering if with better air flow like that of a pole/ground mount, if that helped to minimize connector failure. Christopher On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 1:21 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ray, > > Exactly the same thing happened for me on a ground mount > system, 3500 feet elevation the the Sierras so open cooler air, fully > engaged MC4 factory connectors PV to PV connectors with SW285's, not > passing current, melted. No attempt to contact SW just made up new > connectors. > > My calculation is with anything that is no doubt made up by > the bazillion with a machine (connectors, light bulbs, pencils, chicken > nuggets, etc) you're going to get some duds. In 20+ years of installing > PVs with factory made-up connectors, I've only seen this happen 2-3 times. > Installing in the mountains we no doubt use ground mount much more often > than most installs in urban areas which would make a hot, melted connector > possibly more of an issue a couple inches above a comp or wood roof. We've > never seen any connectors fail beyond the melted/deformed but still > "contained" stage . > > Back when SW was first transitioning from one connector to > another, I remember them saying they (I think it was UTX and MC or was it > UTX and Amphenol?) were compatible. We NEVER mixed connectors despite > their claim. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) > 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) > CA. C10 Lic # 874049 > Solar Powered since 1982 > Home of the Sunny Side Up > > On 11/9/2023 4:31 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I'm trying to find a pic to post, but they were MC4 connectors, not the > UTX. > > Ray > On 11/9/2023 4:57 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds like > about the right timeframe. > > BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectors > > pv-magazine-usa.com > > > > > > Brian > > On Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > > wrote: > >  > > 12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors might. I > just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a bad series MC > connector (module to module). It got quite crispy, deforming and bubbling > the plastic on both sides of the connection. It was still passing current; > I didn't get a chance to measure the volt drop. It was completely plugged > in, so not an installation issue. > > This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were > Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules. That also > means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. > > 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+ hotter than ambient temp, > all are tough on connectors. I predict more connector failures as module > current ratings increase. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught on fire > because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no responsibility for it… > > It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get some > on them… > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of *William Miller > via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Cc:* William Miller > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC > interpretation/guidance? > > > > George: > > > > Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same > as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the manufactured > assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance. By > appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *George McClellan via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* George McClellan > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC > interpretation/guidance? > > > > Team; > > > > With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing > the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar > derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will > exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the > homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module > cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or > reference material would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thx, > > > > George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC > > 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA > > Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 > > www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any > unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this > message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please > notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Virus-free.www.avast.com > > <#m_-436569653518949353_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Nov 10 08:50:26 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 08:50:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: <169db263-84d9-46ef-b8ca-c93bd7088723@solarray.com> Message-ID: Mine was a roof mount. We had very few SolarWorld projects. In fact, this might be our only one. On Fri, Nov 10, 2023, 8:10 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I'd be curious to know of the connector failures y'all have experienced, > were the majority of these roof mounts? > Just wondering if with better air flow like that of a pole/ground mount, > if that helped to minimize connector failure. > > Christopher > > On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 1:21 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Ray, >> >> Exactly the same thing happened for me on a ground mount >> system, 3500 feet elevation the the Sierras so open cooler air, fully >> engaged MC4 factory connectors PV to PV connectors with SW285's, not >> passing current, melted. No attempt to contact SW just made up new >> connectors. >> >> My calculation is with anything that is no doubt made up by >> the bazillion with a machine (connectors, light bulbs, pencils, chicken >> nuggets, etc) you're going to get some duds. In 20+ years of installing >> PVs with factory made-up connectors, I've only seen this happen 2-3 times. >> Installing in the mountains we no doubt use ground mount much more often >> than most installs in urban areas which would make a hot, melted connector >> possibly more of an issue a couple inches above a comp or wood roof. We've >> never seen any connectors fail beyond the melted/deformed but still >> "contained" stage . >> >> Back when SW was first transitioning from one connector to >> another, I remember them saying they (I think it was UTX and MC or was it >> UTX and Amphenol?) were compatible. We NEVER mixed connectors despite >> their claim. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >> Solar Powered since 1982 >> Home of the Sunny Side Up >> >> On 11/9/2023 4:31 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> I'm trying to find a pic to post, but they were MC4 connectors, not the >> UTX. >> >> Ray >> On 11/9/2023 4:57 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> >> Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds >> like about the right timeframe. >> >> BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectors >> >> pv-magazine-usa.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> On Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >> >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> 12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors might. I >> just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a bad series MC >> connector (module to module). It got quite crispy, deforming and bubbling >> the plastic on both sides of the connection. It was still passing current; >> I didn't get a chance to measure the volt drop. It was completely plugged >> in, so not an installation issue. >> >> This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were >> Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules. That also >> means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. >> >> 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+ hotter than ambient temp, >> all are tough on connectors. I predict more connector failures as module >> current ratings increase. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught on >> fire because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no responsibility for it… >> >> It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get some >> on them… >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches >> *On Behalf Of *William >> Miller via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> >> *Cc:* William Miller >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC >> interpretation/guidance? >> >> >> >> George: >> >> >> >> Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same >> as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the manufactured >> assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance. By >> appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *George McClellan via RE-wrenches >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Cc:* George McClellan >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC >> interpretation/guidance? >> >> >> >> Team; >> >> >> >> With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing >> the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar >> derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will >> exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the >> homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module >> cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or >> reference material would be greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thx, >> >> >> >> George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC >> >> 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA >> >> Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 >> >> www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this >> message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please >> notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> Virus-free.www.avast.com >> >> <#m_8749843072533026636_m_-436569653518949353_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 10:39:43 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 07:39:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Nov 10 11:24:24 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 08:24:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches For many years we used Sharp modules, yes they had issues but l dont recall many if at all MC failurs but with SolarWorld a very high number of failures. With some overseas manufacturers I have also seen this level of failure so it does start to look like the sub that made the cables is the issue. Now years ago some MC Knock offs hit the market, say10 to 15 years ago. Issues like this may also be a factor. Fun times On Fri, Nov 10, 2023, 7:41 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’ve wondered what other variables are at work given that mostly these > connectors work as they should. > > I’d like to see them come with plugs covering the openings. This would > keep dirt, salt air, moisture, etc out until they are connected. > > As to if there were lots of failures with SW modules then I wonder if > whoever built the whips had poor quality control. Might be they were not > seated properly or dirty or the crimp they used wasn’t calibrated correctly > or they were stored in a salt environment creating corrosion or something > like that. > > I looked up the specs last night on the mc4 and it’s like 30+ amps > depending on the wire, pretty impressive > > Jay > > > > > > > > On Nov 10, 2023, at 5:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Mine was a roof mount. We had very few SolarWorld projects. In fact, this > might be our only one. > > On Fri, Nov 10, 2023, 8:10 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I'd be curious to know of the connector failures y'all have experienced, >> were the majority of these roof mounts? >> Just wondering if with better air flow like that of a pole/ground mount, >> if that helped to minimize connector failure. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 1:21 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Ray, >>> >>> Exactly the same thing happened for me on a ground mount >>> system, 3500 feet elevation the the Sierras so open cooler air, fully >>> engaged MC4 factory connectors PV to PV connectors with SW285's, not >>> passing current, melted. No attempt to contact SW just made up new >>> connectors. >>> >>> My calculation is with anything that is no doubt made up by >>> the bazillion with a machine (connectors, light bulbs, pencils, chicken >>> nuggets, etc) you're going to get some duds. In 20+ years of installing >>> PVs with factory made-up connectors, I've only seen this happen 2-3 times. >>> Installing in the mountains we no doubt use ground mount much more often >>> than most installs in urban areas which would make a hot, melted connector >>> possibly more of an issue a couple inches above a comp or wood roof. We've >>> never seen any connectors fail beyond the melted/deformed but still >>> "contained" stage . >>> >>> Back when SW was first transitioning from one connector to >>> another, I remember them saying they (I think it was UTX and MC or was it >>> UTX and Amphenol?) were compatible. We NEVER mixed connectors despite >>> their claim. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) >>> 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) >>> CA. C10 Lic # 874049 >>> Solar Powered since 1982 >>> Home of the Sunny Side Up >>> >>> On 11/9/2023 4:31 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> I'm trying to find a pic to post, but they were MC4 connectors, not the >>> UTX. >>> >>> Ray >>> On 11/9/2023 4:57 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >>> >>> Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds >>> like about the right timeframe. >>> >>> BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectors >>> >>> pv-magazine-usa.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> On Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> 12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors might. >>> I just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a bad series MC >>> connector (module to module). It got quite crispy, deforming and bubbling >>> the plastic on both sides of the connection. It was still passing current; >>> I didn't get a chance to measure the volt drop. It was completely plugged >>> in, so not an installation issue. >>> >>> This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were >>> Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules. That also >>> means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. >>> >>> 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+ hotter than ambient temp, >>> all are tough on connectors. I predict more connector failures as module >>> current ratings increase. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: >>> >>> Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught on >>> fire because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no responsibility for it… >>> >>> It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get >>> some on them… >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> *On Behalf Of *William >>> Miller via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> >>> *Cc:* William Miller >>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC >>> interpretation/guidance? >>> >>> >>> >>> George: >>> >>> >>> >>> Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the >>> same as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the >>> manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that >>> appliance. By appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *George McClellan via RE-wrenches >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM >>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> *Cc:* George McClellan >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC >>> interpretation/guidance? >>> >>> >>> >>> Team; >>> >>> >>> >>> With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing >>> the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar >>> derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will >>> exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the >>> homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module >>> cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or >>> reference material would be greatly appreciated. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thx, >>> >>> >>> >>> George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC >>> >>> 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA >>> >>> Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 >>> >>> www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any >>> unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this >>> message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please >>> notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Virus-free.www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_-6374991197620274521_m_8749843072533026636_m_-436569653518949353_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bryan at pv-cables.com Fri Nov 10 11:25:47 2023 From: bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2023 16:25:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was explained to me, the compounds Amphenol used in this large batch of connector housings were bad/incorrect. We started seeing failures on these modules as quickly as 6 months of being in service. Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, November 10, 2023 7:39:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jay Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? I’ve wondered what other variables are at work given that mostly these connectors work as they should. I’d like to see them come with plugs covering the openings. This would keep dirt, salt air, moisture, etc out until they are connected. As to if there were lots of failures with SW modules then I wonder if whoever built the whips had poor quality control. Might be they were not seated properly or dirty or the crimp they used wasn’t calibrated correctly or they were stored in a salt environment creating corrosion or something like that. I looked up the specs last night on the mc4 and it’s like 30+ amps depending on the wire, pretty impressive Jay On Nov 10, 2023, at 5:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote:  Mine was a roof mount. We had very few SolarWorld projects. In fact, this might be our only one. On Fri, Nov 10, 2023, 8:10 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches > wrote: I'd be curious to know of the connector failures y'all have experienced, were the majority of these roof mounts? Just wondering if with better air flow like that of a pole/ground mount, if that helped to minimize connector failure. Christopher On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 1:21 AM Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches > wrote: Ray, Exactly the same thing happened for me on a ground mount system, 3500 feet elevation the the Sierras so open cooler air, fully engaged MC4 factory connectors PV to PV connectors with SW285's, not passing current, melted. No attempt to contact SW just made up new connectors. My calculation is with anything that is no doubt made up by the bazillion with a machine (connectors, light bulbs, pencils, chicken nuggets, etc) you're going to get some duds. In 20+ years of installing PVs with factory made-up connectors, I've only seen this happen 2-3 times. Installing in the mountains we no doubt use ground mount much more often than most installs in urban areas which would make a hot, melted connector possibly more of an issue a couple inches above a comp or wood roof. We've never seen any connectors fail beyond the melted/deformed but still "contained" stage . Back when SW was first transitioning from one connector to another, I remember them saying they (I think it was UTX and MC or was it UTX and Amphenol?) were compatible. We NEVER mixed connectors despite their claim. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up On 11/9/2023 4:31 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: I'm trying to find a pic to post, but they were MC4 connectors, not the UTX. Ray On 11/9/2023 4:57 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds like about the right timeframe. [X] BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectors pv-magazine-usa.com Brian On Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:  12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors might. I just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had a bad series MC connector (module to module). It got quite crispy, deforming and bubbling the plastic on both sides of the connection. It was still passing current; I didn't get a chance to measure the volt drop. It was completely plugged in, so not an installation issue. This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these were Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model modules. That also means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type. 10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+ hotter than ambient temp, all are tough on connectors. I predict more connector failures as module current ratings increase. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: Good luck trying to convince your customer that their house caught on fire because of a manufacturers flaw, and you have no responsibility for it… It may be an out to shift the blame, but it only makes everybody get some on them… From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? George: Appliance manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the same as the NEC requirements. As long as you are not modifying the manufactured assembly you are not responsible for compliance of that appliance. By appliance, I mean the solar module, microinverter, etc. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of George McClellan via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: George McClellan Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance? Team; With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire. If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A that a 12 AWG wire can carry. I understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger? Any guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated. Thx, George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC 330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 www.recgroup.com | george.mcclellan at recgroup.com ________________________________ This message is private and confidential and may be privileged. Any unauthorized use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately and remove it from your system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free.www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zwIEzRtOZdJBisBPW2ba9BZwLKpocRcDBtPtw_dLzSM8MNthtmnA5rIuBZ_I3mSXj7FKHtwYk] Tel 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 S Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4x-VMx3KNrBUjGRGaM4iKmHJ8KxC99V1SUtUEwox6UqTgarqNFHzUcmy9RMxD2D0BZ_64Nrd2s] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 12 15:36:15 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 12:36:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system Message-ID: <0746da843faa4b584a5d9f61f7dcc7a0@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys. With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused unacceptable charging and generator operations. I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. I have documented my research here . There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any integrator that wants that knowledge. Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I am just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help someone someday… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 15:49:43 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 12:49:43 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: <0746da843faa4b584a5d9f61f7dcc7a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <0746da843faa4b584a5d9f61f7dcc7a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the charger over under charge issue. Fun times On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny > Islands and Sunny Boys. > > > > With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of > SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This > discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused > unacceptable charging and generator operations. > > > > I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI > inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I > believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the > battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the > voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions > myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording > with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). > > > > I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and > perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI > (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power > Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control > over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. > > > > I have documented my research here > . > There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I > appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. > > > > By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny > Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up > and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am > the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to > figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those > log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, > if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the > case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any > integrator that wants that knowledge. > > > > Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I am > just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help > someone someday… > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 17:21:03 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 14:21:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 12 17:34:45 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 14:34:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay: Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my assumption. However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance. The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals… William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the > fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage > gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic device to change battery > impedance besides what the actual cells are doing. > > Jay > > On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp > sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the > charger over under charge issue. > Fun times > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny >> Islands and Sunny Boys. >> >> >> >> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting >> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This >> discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused >> unacceptable charging and generator operations. >> >> >> >> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI >> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I >> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the >> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the >> voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions >> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording >> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). >> >> >> >> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter >> and perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the >> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift >> Power Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor >> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. >> >> >> >> I have documented my research here >> . >> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I >> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. >> >> >> >> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny >> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up >> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am >> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to >> figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those >> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, >> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the >> case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any >> integrator that wants that knowledge. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I am >> just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help >> someone someday… >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at abundantsolar.com Sun Nov 12 18:05:13 2023 From: kirk at abundantsolar.com (Kirk Bailey) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:05:13 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo (220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read. I think I ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation. I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high, activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the SI, which then... Cheers, Kirk Bailey kirk at abundantsolar.com On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jay: > > Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my > assumption. > > However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance. > > The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain > connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals… > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the >> fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage >> gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic device to change battery >> impedance besides what the actual cells are doing. >> >> Jay >> >> On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp >> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the >> charger over under charge issue. >> Fun times >> >> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny >>> Islands and Sunny Boys. >>> >>> >>> >>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting >>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This >>> discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused >>> unacceptable charging and generator operations. >>> >>> >>> >>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI >>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I >>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the >>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the >>> voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions >>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording >>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). >>> >>> >>> >>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter >>> and perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the >>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift >>> Power Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor >>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have documented my research here >>> . >>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I >>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny >>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up >>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am >>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to >>> figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those >>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, >>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the >>> case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any >>> integrator that wants that knowledge. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I >>> am just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help >>> someone someday… >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Nov 12 18:07:32 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:07:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6DAC07AB-6284-4DB5-8DE8-FEF54419BE25@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at abundantsolar.com Sun Nov 12 18:09:05 2023 From: kirk at abundantsolar.com (Kirk Bailey) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:09:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Make that 222-10 for ChrgVtgFlo, not 220-10 Kirk On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 3:05 PM Kirk Bailey wrote: > I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop > SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that > Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo > (220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read. I think I > ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation. > > I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high, > activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting > sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the > SI, which then... > > Cheers, > > Kirk Bailey > kirk at abundantsolar.com > > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jay: >> >> Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my >> assumption. >> >> However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance. >> >> The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain >> connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals… >> >> William Miller >> Miller Solar.com >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the >>> fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage >>> gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic device to change battery >>> impedance besides what the actual cells are doing. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat >>> temp sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent >>> the charger over under charge issue. >>> Fun times >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Friends: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny >>>> Islands and Sunny Boys. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting >>>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This >>>> discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused >>>> unacceptable charging and generator operations. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI >>>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I >>>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the >>>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the >>>> voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions >>>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording >>>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter >>>> and perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the >>>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift >>>> Power Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor >>>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have documented my research here >>>> . >>>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I >>>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny >>>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up >>>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am >>>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to >>>> figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those >>>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, >>>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the >>>> case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any >>>> integrator that wants that knowledge. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I >>>> am just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help >>>> someone someday… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 12 19:10:16 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 16:10:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: <6DAC07AB-6284-4DB5-8DE8-FEF54419BE25@gmail.com> References: <6DAC07AB-6284-4DB5-8DE8-FEF54419BE25@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3c8d13600daf4df084fd25be8472d969@mail.gmail.com> Jay: I think that is what usually happens. During one occurrence 2 of the 5 batteries did shut down. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, November 12, 2023 3:08 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system Interesting The high voltage disconnect is 58.4v. Reconnect is 54.4v. Maybe if the spike is fast enough the inverter trips off before the battery shuts off? Jay On Nov 12, 2023, at 2:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Jay: Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my assumption. However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance. The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals… William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage gets too high or low. There isn’t any electronic device to change battery impedance besides what the actual cells are doing. Jay On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Regarding the SI Inverters, for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the charger over under charge issue. Fun times On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys. With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused unacceptable charging and generator operations. I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. I have documented my research here . There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any integrator that wants that knowledge. Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I am just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help someone someday… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change list server email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change list server email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change list server email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change list server email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 12 19:27:22 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 16:27:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12362a5535cb9b993ec9ad8452fbde83@mail.gmail.com> Kirk: There are a lot of misconceptions about AC Coupling in the industry. I think you may have fallen victim to one: When you are feeding AC power backwards through a battery inverter, that inverter cannot exert any control over the charging parameters. You can set bulk, absorption, float, EQ, any charge setting you can find, but if your power source is AC-coupled (coming in through the out door), those settings do not affect the charging at all. Someone please slap me if I am wrong on this. Those settings do apply if you have an AC source like a generator or grid that is connected to an AC *input*. We cannot connect grid-tied inverters to any input because AC inputs do not create a mini-grid. Furthermore, if you set a Sunny Island for battery type “Ext BMS”, you cannot adjust those settings. Pressing the buttons elicits wonky responses. Pressing up arrow jumps to zeros… Pressing the down arrow can reduce settings but they will not be saved. I have seen this and while Fortress cannot replicate this in the lab, they have heard this reported. (This Ext-BMS setting is only available with the latest firmware and by initiating New battery or New system in the quick programming function.) Until this moment I did not realize that this is another reason Closed loop on a Sunny Island is a non-starter: If you can’t set charge parameters for generator or grid battery charging then you have a system that cannot be set to charge batteries from AC sources with precision. If closed loop does not work for this reason, and open loop does not track the critical SOC values, then we may be out of options. Maybe this is why SMA will not talk to anyone with lithium batteries. Hmmmmm… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Kirk Bailey [mailto:kirk at abundantsolar.com] *Sent:* Sunday, November 12, 2023 3:05 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo (220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read. I think I ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation. I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high, activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the SI, which then... Cheers, Kirk Bailey kirk at abundantsolar.com On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Jay: Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my assumption. However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance. The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals… William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic device to change battery impedance besides what the actual cells are doing. Jay On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:  Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the charger over under charge issue. Fun times On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Friends: I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny Islands and Sunny Boys. With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused unacceptable charging and generator operations. I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. I have documented my research here . There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any integrator that wants that knowledge. Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I am just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help someone someday… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Sun Nov 12 20:25:48 2023 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:25:48 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirk at abundantsolar.com Sun Nov 12 20:31:55 2023 From: kirk at abundantsolar.com (Kirk Bailey) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 17:31:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: <12362a5535cb9b993ec9ad8452fbde83@mail.gmail.com> References: <12362a5535cb9b993ec9ad8452fbde83@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, I agree that AC coupled input power can't be "directly" regulated by the battery inverter, but it *can* be indirectly regulated using techniques such as telling the downstream PV inverter(s) to back off via a frequency-watt change, or turning on a diversion load, or worst case simply shutting off the battery inverter AC output connected to the PV inverters (so-called bang-bang control). However, I thought the battery charging parameters were part of the equation when the inverter is making the decision about what to do if the batteries are nearly full? And in my case, with the SI master set to EXT-BMS (most recent firmware), the battery parameters *could* be set and appeared to make a difference in operation. My (possibly incorrect!), assumption was that the closed loop communication was primarily for SOC and fault conditions. If there is any documentation for what the closed loop communication consists of that would be really interesting! Cheers, Kirk Bailey kirk at abundantsolar.com 541-231-8072 x1 On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 4:38 PM William Miller wrote: > Kirk: > > > > There are a lot of misconceptions about AC Coupling in the industry. I > think you may have fallen victim to one: > > > > When you are feeding AC power backwards through a battery inverter, that > inverter cannot exert any control over the charging parameters. You can > set bulk, absorption, float, EQ, any charge setting you can find, but if > your power source is AC-coupled (coming in through the out door), those > settings do not affect the charging at all. > > > > Someone please slap me if I am wrong on this. > > > > Those settings do apply if you have an AC source like a generator or grid > that is connected to an AC *input*. We cannot connect grid-tied > inverters to any input because AC inputs do not create a mini-grid. > > > > Furthermore, if you set a Sunny Island for battery type “Ext BMS”, you > cannot adjust those settings. Pressing the buttons elicits wonky > responses. Pressing up arrow jumps to zeros… Pressing the down arrow can > reduce settings but they will not be saved. I have seen this and while > Fortress cannot replicate this in the lab, they have heard this reported. > (This Ext-BMS setting is only available with the latest firmware and by > initiating New battery or New system in the quick programming function.) > > > > Until this moment I did not realize that this is another reason Closed > loop on a > > Sunny Island is a non-starter: If you can’t set charge parameters for > generator or grid battery charging then you have a system that cannot be > set to charge batteries from AC sources with precision. If closed loop > does not work for this reason, and open loop does not track the critical > SOC values, then we may be out of options. Maybe this is why SMA will not > talk to anyone with lithium batteries. > > > > Hmmmmm… > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* Kirk Bailey [mailto:kirk at abundantsolar.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, November 12, 2023 3:05 PM > *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an > SI AC-coupled system > > > > I went back and looked at my notes on my recent adventure with closed loop > SI to eFlex Fortress, and one thing I had noted at the time is that > Fortress recommends 2.2V, 2.26V, and 2.3V for the setting for ChrgVtgFlo > (220-10), depending on which of three Fortress docs I read. I think I > ended up setting it to 2.26V after some experimentation. > > > > I can imagine a scenario where the voltage gets *slightly* too high, > activating the most trigger-happy of the battery's BMS's, and the resulting > sudden partial loss in load then causes a transitory voltage surge from the > SI, which then... > > > > Cheers, > > > > Kirk Bailey > > kirk at abundantsolar.com > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Jay: > > > > Good question. I assumed some kind of FET circuit but that is only my > assumption. > > > > However an open relay exhibits some fairly high impedance. > > > > The symptoms indicate the SI shuts down but the batteries remain > connected. Something allows 69 volts on the battery terminals… > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:22 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Maybe someone else knows differently but it was explained to me that the > fortress batteries have a relay that disconnects the battery if the voltage > gets to high or low. There isn’t any electronic device to change battery > impedance besides what the actual cells are doing. > > > > Jay > > > > On Nov 12, 2023, at 12:50 PM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp > sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the > charger over under charge issue. > > Fun times > > > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny > Islands and Sunny Boys. > > > > With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting of > SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This > discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused > unacceptable charging and generator operations. > > > > I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI > inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I > believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the > battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the > voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions > myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording > with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). > > > > I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter and > perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the SI > (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift Power > Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor control > over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. > > > > I have documented my research here > . > There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I > appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. > > > > By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny > Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up > and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am > the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to > figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those > log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, > if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the > case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any > integrator that wants that knowledge. > > > > Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I am > just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help > someone someday… > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 12 21:41:07 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 18:41:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2.7 k ohms = about 37 C. Digi key or I can send you a few. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 5:27 PM Roland - RES via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Jerry, > > I have an upcoming project where I will need to add the resister to > eliminate and batt temp charging corrections. I have not done this before > can you provide where I could find a twister to achieve this? > > Mahalo, > > > Roland Shackelford > > President / Owner > > NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 > > Office 808.775.7410 > > Mobile 808.938.9239 > > Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. > > > " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, > there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru > > On Nov 12, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp > sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the > charger over under charge issue. > Fun times > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny >> Islands and Sunny Boys. >> >> >> >> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting >> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This >> discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused >> unacceptable charging and generator operations. >> >> >> >> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI >> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I >> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the >> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the >> voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions >> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording >> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). >> >> >> >> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter >> and perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the >> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift >> Power Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor >> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. >> >> >> >> I have documented my research here >> . >> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I >> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. >> >> >> >> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny >> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up >> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am >> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to >> figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those >> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, >> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the >> case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any >> integrator that wants that knowledge. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I am >> just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help >> someone someday… >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Mon Nov 13 13:28:13 2023 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matthew Sherald) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 13:28:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cummins 13-kW to Schneider AGS Message-ID: <7DF587C0-D1EB-44FC-B478-C9FE152F3763@getpimby.com> Hello Friends, I’m stuck trying to wire a 13-kW Cummins LP gen to a Schneider AGS. If someone has a quick explanation or diagram that they would be willing to share I would be most grateful. Many Thanks! -Matt Sherald Sent from my iPhone From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Mon Nov 13 14:57:24 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 19:57:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cummins 13-kW to Schneider AGS In-Reply-To: <7DF587C0-D1EB-44FC-B478-C9FE152F3763@getpimby.com> References: <7DF587C0-D1EB-44FC-B478-C9FE152F3763@getpimby.com> Message-ID: Hi Matt, Which specific model? I recently figured out the wiring for the Cummins CMQG 6kW. Find it easiest to order the external 5 pin switch and wiring harness and splice into that. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Matthew Sherald via RE-wrenches Sent: November-13-23 10:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Matthew Sherald Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cummins 13-kW to Schneider AGS Hello Friends, I’m stuck trying to wire a 13-kW Cummins LP gen to a Schneider AGS. If someone has a quick explanation or diagram that they would be willing to share I would be most grateful. Many Thanks! -Matt Sherald Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 13 14:59:32 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 14:59:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] USVI Enphase Installers Message-ID: I was approached for a consulting job in St. John, but I would rather hand it over to a competent local installer who is certified with the new 5P battery and related components. Please contact me off list if you are one or know one. Also, just out of curiosity, what are the licensing and permitting requirements typical of USVI? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Nov 13 19:35:49 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 16:35:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cummins 13-kW to Schneider AGS In-Reply-To: References: <7DF587C0-D1EB-44FC-B478-C9FE152F3763@getpimby.com> Message-ID: Probably a type 14. The one below is closed loop Soc, triggers about 20% soc. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-11-13 11:57 am, Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi Matt, > > Which specific model? I recently figured out the wiring for the Cummins > CMQG 6kW. Find it easiest to order the external 5 pin switch and wiring > harness and splice into that. > > Kevin > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Matthew Sherald via RE-wrenches > Sent: November-13-23 10:28 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Cc: Matthew Sherald > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cummins 13-kW to Schneider AGS > > Hello Friends, > > I'm stuck trying to wire a 13-kW Cummins LP gen to a Schneider AGS. If > someone has a quick explanation or diagram that they would be willing > to share I would be most grateful. > > Many Thanks! > > -Matt Sherald > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: f07d4796.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 22104 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b0068d18.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 101601 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Nov 15 09:37:17 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 06:37:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating Fortress E-vault maxes into an SI AC-coupled system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction: 2.2k. Sorry for the confusion, my memory sucks. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 6:41 PM William Miller wrote: > 2.7 k ohms = about 37 C. Digi key or I can send you a few. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 5:27 PM Roland - RES via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Jerry, >> >> I have an upcoming project where I will need to add the resister to >> eliminate and batt temp charging corrections. I have not done this before >> can you provide where I could find a twister to achieve this? >> >> Mahalo, >> >> >> Roland Shackelford >> >> President / Owner >> >> NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 >> >> Office 808.775.7410 >> >> Mobile 808.938.9239 >> >> Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. >> >> >> " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, >> there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru >> >> On Nov 12, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Regarding the SI Inverters,for me it works best to eliminate the bat temp >> sensor and put in a resister set to be 75 degrees, this will prevent the >> charger over under charge issue. >> Fun times >> >> On Sun, Nov 12, 2023, 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I am still working on getting the E-vaults to play nice with the Sunny >>> Islands and Sunny Boys. >>> >>> >>> >>> With Open loop I was getting significant discrepancies in the reporting >>> of SOC in the e-vaults versus that reported by the SI inverters. This >>> discrepancy did not diminish over time. The discrepancy caused >>> unacceptable charging and generator operations. >>> >>> >>> >>> I got Closed loop hooked up, but I found that every few days the SI >>> inverters would shut down due to a battery over-voltage condition. I >>> believe that when the e-vaults are near 100% SOC the BMS units increase the >>> battery impedance which means any charging current applied will cause the >>> voltage spike I have been seeing. I was able to measure these conditions >>> myself on site, although they were very fleeting and required recording >>> with the Fluke87 Min-Max function (love this meter!). >>> >>> >>> >>> I was able to extract log files from the Sunny Island primary inverter >>> and perform some analysis. It appears when I turned on remote BMS on the >>> SI (as part of the Closed loop protocol) it disabled the Frequency-Shift >>> Power Control. This means the SI inverters have gone from having poor >>> control over battery charging to having no control over battery charging. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have documented my research here >>> . >>> There is a table of contents to take you to the latest information. I >>> appreciate pertinent comments any of you might have. >>> >>> >>> >>> By the way, if anyone has called SMA tech support for help on a Sunny >>> Island system, you have likely been asked to extract log files, zip them up >>> and send them off for review (and waited a long time for a reply). I am >>> the kind of guy who does not like to wait for solutions and who likes to >>> figure out things for himself. I have taught myself how to evaluate those >>> log files. I will be posting a web page on the subject. In the meantime, >>> if you are interested, two of my analysis Excel sheets are linked in the >>> case study. I will be expanding on this and providing resources to any >>> integrator that wants that knowledge. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any insight. I hope I am wrong about this and I >>> am just missing something. I also hope revealing my headaches will help >>> someone someday… >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Nov 17 01:07:35 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 22:07:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS in attached garage: Heat or smoke detectors Message-ID: <398252d6942581eaca18b8eaa774e452@mail.gmail.com> Friends: We are installing an off-grid power system in an attached garage with VRLA batteries (UnigyII). I need to show compliance with California Residential Code section R328.7. That code language is below: *R328.7 Fire detection.* Rooms and areas within dwelling units, basements and attached garages in which ESS are installed shall be protected by smoke alarms in accordance with Section R314. A heat detector, listed and interconnected to the smoke alarms, shall be installed in locations within dwelling units and attached garages where smoke alarms cannot be installed based on their listing. [SFMJ ESS installed in Group R-3 and townhomes shall comply with the following: 1. Rooms and areas within dwellings units, sleeping units, basements and attached garages in which ESS are installed shall be protected by smoke alarms in accordance with Section R314. 2. A listed heat alarm interconnected to the smoke alarms shall be installed in locations within dwelling units, sleeping units and attached garages where smoke alarms cannot be installed based on their listing. R314 is the language about how where to install interconnected smoke detectors. The home is already sheet-rocked and painted. Does anyone have any idea how I can comply? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Fri Nov 17 07:43:36 2023 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 06:43:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS in attached garage: Heat or smoke detectors In-Reply-To: <398252d6942581eaca18b8eaa774e452@mail.gmail.com> References: <398252d6942581eaca18b8eaa774e452@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <067901da1953$afefa8b0$0fcefa10$@solarcentex.com> Wireless smoke alarms that interconnect to the home system. UL listed. Gamechanger for applications like this. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, November 17, 2023 12:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: William Miller Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS in attached garage: Heat or smoke detectors Friends: We are installing an off-grid power system in an attached garage with VRLA batteries (UnigyII). I need to show compliance with California Residential Code section R328.7. That code language is below: R328.7 Fire detection. Rooms and areas within dwelling units, basements and attached garages in which ESS are installed shall be protected by smoke alarms in accordance with Section R314. A heat detector, listed and interconnected to the smoke alarms, shall be installed in locations within dwelling units and attached garages where smoke alarms cannot be installed based on their listing. [SFMJ ESS installed in Group R-3 and townhomes shall comply with the following: 1. Rooms and areas within dwellings units, sleeping units, basements and attached garages in which ESS are installed shall be protected by smoke alarms in accordance with Section R314. 2. A listed heat alarm interconnected to the smoke alarms shall be installed in locations within dwelling units, sleeping units and attached garages where smoke alarms cannot be installed based on their listing. R314 is the language about how where to install interconnected smoke detectors. The home is already sheet-rocked and painted. Does anyone have any idea how I can comply? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 10:02:41 2023 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 07:02:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ESS in attached garage: Heat or smoke detectors In-Reply-To: <067901da1953$afefa8b0$0fcefa10$@solarcentex.com> References: <067901da1953$afefa8b0$0fcefa10$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <3814D8FA-D588-45D3-970E-0C5150C4B905@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1crGcadcAvCaM3vElrJMTYKSiFBXygmAJZaGGnNWb2G1Ag3SL9Oy4mYMuQR5oi_3Swc=c0xffffff-rj.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 33705 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 13:01:39 2023 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 11:01:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identification help Message-ID: Wrenches; A colleague found this on an older system and is looking for parts. Kind of like strut crossed with racking, I was unable to identify either. Anyone know what this is? Thanks! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20231115_150223.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 331727 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Fri Nov 17 13:23:50 2023 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 10:23:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identification help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like the Lumos LSX rail but obviously he’d know since the frameless Lumos modules would be unmistakable and nearly impossible to confuse with a typical framed module. I do somewhat recall them selling it separately though. Good luck, Nick > On Nov 17, 2023, at 10:01 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Wrenches; A colleague found this on an older system and is looking for parts. Kind of like strut crossed with racking, I was unable to identify either. Anyone know what this is? > Thanks! > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > <20231115_150223.jpg>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Nov 17 15:40:23 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 12:40:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identification help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unistrut and iron ridge paired up from the one pic l saw On Fri, Nov 17, 2023, 10:02 AM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches; A colleague found this on an older system and is looking for > parts. Kind of like strut crossed with racking, I was unable to identify > either. Anyone know what this is? > Thanks! > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Sun Nov 19 15:29:22 2023 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2023 10:29:22 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for software platforms Message-ID: Aloha All, We are exploring software platforms to manage service calls (HouseCall Pro, Service Titan, etc...) The feature set on these service call related platforms seem to be great for that component of our business but we also need to manage the full installation side of the business and every growing paperwork flow to make sure things don't slip through the cracks. Ideally these 2 needs would be met by one platform and allow us to move on from the Google Workspace kludge, which has been great up until now. I don't know if it is even possible! I am wondering if you all are currently using any software platforms to meet these needs (separately or together) and what your experience has been. Thanks! Aloha, Lou Russo Owner lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Nov 20 10:36:17 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2023 10:36:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] assistance in Montgomery Co. MD area Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for residential permitting and install help in the Montgomery Co., specifically Silver Spring, MD area. If you are anyone you may know might be recommended, please contact me off-list. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 11:33:37 2023 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2023 06:33:37 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for software platforms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha Lou, Companycam has really helped us grow and become more organized with photos, checklists, and job-related documents. Give me a call if you would like to chat. I work mostly in Oahu and would love to hear from you. https://companycam.com/features Mahalo Nui, James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-39784 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 10:30 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Aloha All, > > We are exploring software platforms to manage service calls (HouseCall > Pro, Service Titan, etc...) The feature set on these service call related > platforms seem to be great for that component of our business but we also > need to manage the full installation side of the business and every growing > paperwork flow to make sure things don't slip through the cracks. Ideally > these 2 needs would be met by one platform and allow us to move on from the > Google Workspace kludge, which has been great up until now. I don't know if > it is even possible! > > I am wondering if you all are currently using any software platforms to > meet these needs (separately or together) and what your experience has > been. > > Thanks! > > Aloha, > > Lou Russo > Owner > lou at spreesolarsystems.com > 808 345 6762 > Spree Solar Systems LLC > CT-34322 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue Nov 21 13:12:44 2023 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2023 10:12:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for software platforms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18bf315a5b7.12a31f00f105987.6727115995203599420@greenwired.com> We moved to Zoho CRM for a management of service jobs and installs. We also have Zoho Inventory to manage well inventory. They got a whole hosts of different apps that all link together but it does take some time to get everything setup. Andrew Perkins Greenwired Store Manager/Service Tech​ P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com http://qr.codes/qTa1Mh ---- On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:29:22 -0800 Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote --- Aloha All, We are exploring software platforms to manage service calls (HouseCall Pro, Service Titan, etc...) The feature set on these service call related platforms seem to be great for that component of our business but we also need to manage the full installation side of the business and every growing paperwork flow to make sure things don't slip through the cracks. Ideally these 2 needs would be met by one platform and allow us to move on from the Google Workspace kludge, which has been great up until now. I don't know if it is even possible!  I am wondering if you all are currently using any software platforms to meet these needs (separately or together)  and what your experience has been.  Thanks! Aloha, Lou Russo  Owner mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC  CT-34322 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1667767630048000_655845146.png Type: image/png Size: 56703 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Nov 30 11:24:03 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:24:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring Message-ID: Hello, I installed an Evault 18.5 with Envy 8kw inverter the other day. I'm wondering if there is any way to actually monitor / download system data from a desktop computer? Can't find anything in the Fortress docs (some of which appear to be WIP for content) about this. The Fortress mobile apps are nice, but don't allow for any data download, unless I'm totally missing something. Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Nov 30 11:28:25 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:28:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, I know that with the Guardian Battery monitor the app is working, but they are doing a major overhaul on the website. My login info does not work on the website right now, and I am told that it will not be available until the new year. The website is: https://app.fortresspower.io/ Cheers, Dave On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 11:25 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, > > I installed an Evault 18.5 with Envy 8kw inverter the other day. I'm > wondering if there is any way to actually monitor / download system data > from a desktop computer? Can't find anything in the Fortress docs (some of > which appear to be WIP for content) about this. The Fortress mobile apps > are nice, but don't allow for any data download, unless I'm totally missing > something. Thanks. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Nov 30 12:03:44 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:03:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, I tried that site the other day, my browser gave me warning messages, so I left it alone. So that site will be online access to the Guardian gateway data? I wonder if thats true for the Envy app also. PS I found out the Guardian gateway will not recognise a newer "mesh" wifi signal. Fortress is working on a fix, but the physical LAN connection does work. On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 11:28 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Kirk, > > I know that with the Guardian Battery monitor the app is working, but they > are doing a major overhaul on the website. My login info does not work on > the website right now, and I am told that it will not be available until > the new year. The website is: > https://app.fortresspower.io/ > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 11:25 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I installed an Evault 18.5 with Envy 8kw inverter the other day. I'm >> wondering if there is any way to actually monitor / download system data >> from a desktop computer? Can't find anything in the Fortress docs (some of >> which appear to be WIP for content) about this. The Fortress mobile apps >> are nice, but don't allow for any data download, unless I'm totally missing >> something. Thanks. >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.559.1225 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Nov 30 12:35:29 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:35:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting on the "mesh" wifi. That is good to know. And yes, the site I linked is for the Guardian data. I don't know if there is a separate site for the Envy data, but I'll find out in a couple weeks when I install my first Envy inverter system. For what it's worth, their tech support has been easy to get a hold of. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 12:04 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > Yeah, I tried that site the other day, my browser gave me warning > messages, so I left it alone. So that site will be online access to the > Guardian gateway data? I wonder if thats true for the Envy app also. > > PS I found out the Guardian gateway will not recognise a newer "mesh" wifi > signal. Fortress is working on a fix, but the physical LAN connection does > work. > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 11:28 AM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > >> Kirk, >> >> I know that with the Guardian Battery monitor the app is working, but >> they are doing a major overhaul on the website. My login info does not work >> on the website right now, and I am told that it will not be available until >> the new year. The website is: >> https://app.fortresspower.io/ >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 11:25 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I installed an Evault 18.5 with Envy 8kw inverter the other day. I'm >>> wondering if there is any way to actually monitor / download system data >>> from a desktop computer? Can't find anything in the Fortress docs (some of >>> which appear to be WIP for content) about this. The Fortress mobile apps >>> are nice, but don't allow for any data download, unless I'm totally missing >>> something. Thanks. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >>> >>> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >>> >>> *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.559.1225 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> > > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Thu Nov 30 20:20:11 2023 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 01:20:11 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid Tied Inverter back feed to Generator Message-ID: Has anyone experienced a grid tie inverter back feed a whole house backup generator after a utility outage? What can happen ? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St. Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Dec 1 11:45:14 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 11:45:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid Tied Inverter back feed to Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy, It is my understanding that if the generator wakes up the grid tied inverter and loads are more than the solar then maybe nothing bad would happen. Although I would never do that because you don't have any control over the loads. And if the solar production is more than the loads, then the excess energy feeds back to the generator and can break things. In other words, move the solar interconnection to the line side of the transfer switch so that there is no chance of the generator and solar "seeing" each other. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 8:20 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone experienced a grid tie inverter back feed a whole house backup > generator after a utility outage? > What can happen ? > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Dec 1 13:33:21 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2023 10:33:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid Tied Inverter back feed to Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d755aa8e0a85d0b06e377d48b8661bc@sti.net> A pix may help. Same for Offgrid with AC coupling. (2 sources) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [3]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [4] [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-12-01 8:45 am, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Jeremy, > > It is my understanding that if the generator wakes up the grid tied > inverter and loads are more than the solar then maybe nothing bad would > happen. Although I would never do that because you don't have any > control over the loads. And if the solar production is more than the > loads, then the excess energy feeds back to the generator and can break > things. In other words, move the solar interconnection to the line side > of the transfer switch so that there is no chance of the generator and > solar "seeing" each other. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 8:20 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Has anyone experienced a grid tie inverter back feed a whole house >> backup generator after a utility outage? >> What can happen ? >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > [1] > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com [2] > c: (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.sungineersolar.com/ [2] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 38167649.png Type: image/png Size: 700167 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Fri Dec 1 19:07:52 2023 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 16:07:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid Tied Inverter back feed to Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We were called to repair a system where this happened. All the micro inverters were fried and so was the generator. It caused a voltage rise that the monitoring system recorded at 348 V before it went down, when the PV ran the generator as a motor. *Eric Smiley,* Design Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 at 17:20, Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone experienced a grid tie inverter back feed a whole house backup > generator after a utility outage? > What can happen ? > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 19:16:10 2023 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 16:16:10 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid Tied Inverter back feed to Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Without batteries uou do not want to do this, l have tested small generators to excite larger solar inverters to run constant loads but if the inverters out power the loads then the smoke comes out so not advisable But hey thats just a guy that has been in the business for many years. Fun times. On Thu, Nov 30, 2023, 5:20 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Has anyone experienced a grid tie inverter back feed a whole house backup > generator after a utility outage? > What can happen ? > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St. > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Dec 1 19:25:52 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2023 16:25:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid Tied Inverter back feed to Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f8db336e031c34d29416c60a3bec79a@sti.net> Picture tells one alot also. You can't have 2 or more sources without isolation, batteries or not. Cheers! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-12-01 4:16 pm, Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches wrote: > Wrenches > Without batteries uou do not want to do this, l have tested small > generators to excite larger solar inverters to run constant loads but > if the inverters out power the loads then the smoke comes out so not > advisable > But hey thats just a guy that has been in the business for many years. > Fun times. > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2023, 5:20 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches > wrote: > >> Has anyone experienced a grid tie inverter back feed a whole house >> backup generator after a utility outage? >> What can happen ? >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Dec 2 10:19:28 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2023 10:19:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid Tied Inverter back feed to Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: AC coupling the Enphase IQ8 microinverters with a generator and no batteries is a supported setup with their System Controller 2 or 3G. The "Sunlight Only Backup" system in this configuration starts the generator automatically during a grid outage, but generator power will only be used if the loads exceed the PV inverter combined output. This is intended to reduce fuel burn, presumably, and start up large loads. I'm not sure how they deal with large loads dropping off, but the IQ8 responsiveness to load changes is supposed to be lightning fast, so I assume they have that all figured out. There are sizing ratio limits. We have never installed a system like this (without batteries), and I can't imagine a scenario where I think it would be worthwhile in a residential setting unless there is a consistently moderate to high load during daylight hours. I just don't think the reduction of fuel burn would be substantial enough to justify the expense and complexity of the System Controller. Standby generators often run near idle anyway around here except when air conditioners cycle on and off. With pool pumps being so efficient, and often left out of backup load panels anyway, there are not many consistent loads in a house in a grid-outage scenario that would benefit the homeowner by reducing fuel consumption substantially. Unfortunately, it's hard to find ideal fuel burn figures for many generators to do proper estimates. So a question aside from "what happens" if you AC couple a generator with PV is whether it's even worth it. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 7:16 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > Without batteries uou do not want to do this, l have tested small > generators to excite larger solar inverters to run constant loads but if > the inverters out power the loads then the smoke comes out so not advisable > But hey thats just a guy that has been in the business for many years. > Fun times. > > On Thu, Nov 30, 2023, 5:20 PM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone experienced a grid tie inverter back feed a whole house backup >> generator after a utility outage? >> What can happen ? >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St. >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Wed Dec 6 12:10:15 2023 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 10:10:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is an official communication from Fortress that we received recently when inquiring about monitoring Fortress batteries as an Installer. Some of you may find the info relevant. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 12:37 PM Subject: Re:[## 5635 ##] Remote Monitoring Access To: ----- at ---------------.com Hi -----, As of right now, the Guardian app is designed to be used by the end user only and does not have "fleet management" capabilities as you have described. This is a highly demanded feature so we are working on getting this added by Q2 2024. If you would like to view the info from their Guardian, you can use their login info and log in using their credentials on your phone. Best, ----- ------ Applications Engineer II Fortress Power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Dec 6 12:40:08 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 12:40:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yep, I found this out when I installed my first Fortress Evault / Envy inverter combo last month. What was also a bit different at first is the fact there are -2- different apps: the Guardian gateway app and the Envy inverter app. I bought the guardian thinking it was the only way to see the system remotely, but this is not true IF you've installed the Envy inverter also. The limitation of no "fleet" monitoring is puzzling. But now I'm glad there's a unique app for the inverter. The inverter app is much more detailed and allows most parameters to be tweaked remotely. The Guardian app id for basic system monitoring only. So the single-user per app has worked out OK. My customer uses the at-a-glance Guardian app, and I use the Envy app for more detailed monitoring and programming. On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 12:11 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Here is an official communication from Fortress that we received recently > when inquiring about monitoring Fortress batteries as an Installer. Some > of you may find the info relevant. > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 12:37 PM > Subject: Re:[## 5635 ##] Remote Monitoring Access > To: ----- at ---------------.com > > > Hi -----, > > As of right now, the Guardian app is designed to be used by the end user > only and does not have "fleet management" capabilities as you have > described. This is a highly demanded feature so we are working on getting > this added by Q2 2024. > > If you would like to view the info from their Guardian, you can use their > login info and log in using their credentials on your phone. > > Best, > ----- ------ > Applications Engineer II > Fortress Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Dec 6 13:06:40 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 10:06:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: The Guardian app does not provide any historical data. Fortress says they are working on that. They claim that on request they can provide historical data but the one time I asked there was an hours-long gap in the data at the exact time I needed. Maybe Rose Mary Woods’ incarnation is working for them. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Wednesday, December 6, 2023 9:40 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* Kirk Herander *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress remote monitoring Yep, I found this out when I installed my first Fortress Evault / Envy inverter combo last month. What was also a bit different at first is the fact there are -2- different apps: the Guardian gateway app and the Envy inverter app. I bought the guardian thinking it was the only way to see the system remotely, but this is not true IF you've installed the Envy inverter also. The limitation of no "fleet" monitoring is puzzling. But now I'm glad there's a unique app for the inverter. The inverter app is much more detailed and allows most parameters to be tweaked remotely. The Guardian app id for basic system monitoring only. So the single-user per app has worked out OK. My customer uses the at-a-glance Guardian app, and I use the Envy app for more detailed monitoring and programming. On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 12:11 PM Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: Here is an official communication from Fortress that we received recently when inquiring about monitoring Fortress batteries as an Installer. Some of you may find the info relevant. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 12:37 PM Subject: Re:[## 5635 ##] Remote Monitoring Access To: ----- at ---------------.com Hi -----, As of right now, the Guardian app is designed to be used by the end user only and does not have "fleet management" capabilities as you have described. This is a highly demanded feature so we are working on getting this added by Q2 2024. If you would like to view the info from their Guardian, you can use their login info and log in using their credentials on your phone. Best, ----- ------ Applications Engineer II Fortress Power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 21:07:33 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 21:07:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4448 PAE whimpy charge rate. Message-ID: I have noticed on several Magnum Installations that the charge rate is low compared to the inverter rated output. Typically I would assume the charge rate should be up to about 70 to 80 % of the inverter capacity, but I am getting only about 1400 watts (26 amps DC) from it with a 14kw generator. Is there some setting I am missing that would limit it other than the charge %. I know of one system where they added a 2nd Magnum inverter and then had problems with them working together consistently. I have used the 8 kilowatt Radians for any off grid with significant loads and battery capacity and easily get 6000 charging watts from a large generator. I also needed remote control of the generator (Generac EcoGen 15 kw so a quick inexpensive but clunky solution I came up with was to add an old (2003 vintage) used MX-60 to the system purely to use the Aux relay with a used HUB and old but good Mate3. Works perfectly giving us AGS start and stop voltage settings and basic battery voltage graph. I would be interested in other ways to remote control generators with non Outback inverters. FlexNet DC? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Dec 6 21:46:13 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 20:46:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4448 PAE whimpy charge rate. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83DBDB4D-DEDE-4681-AD82-090D4BE19A88@mavericksolar.com> John I would try the Victron Cerbo GX for remote control of stuff. It has plethora of ports (I/O and temperature) and they can connect to lots of different devices, especially other Victron items like inverters and charge controllers and smart shunts (that one I’d also add to the Cerbo right away for SOC). 1. Cerbo GX 2. SmartShunt 500 amp Battery Monitor (Bluetooth) 3. Temperature sensor BMV-702/712 for the shunt. 4. VE.direct cable of correct length to go from Cerbo to SmartShunt Cerbo GX connects to the internet via wired or wireless internet ports provided. They have a cellular modem add on as well. Victron offers a VRM virtual remote monitoring via the web. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Dec 6, 2023, at 8:08 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > I have noticed on several Magnum Installations that the charge rate is low compared to the inverter rated output. Typically I would assume the charge rate should be up to about 70 to 80 % of the inverter capacity, but I am getting only about 1400 watts (26 amps DC) from it with a 14kw generator. Is there some setting I am missing that would limit it other than the charge %. I know of one system where they added a 2nd Magnum inverter and then had problems with them working together consistently. I have used the 8 kilowatt Radians for any off grid with significant loads and battery capacity and easily get 6000 charging watts from a large generator. I also needed remote control of the generator (Generac EcoGen 15 kw so a quick inexpensive but clunky solution I came up with was to add an old (2003 vintage) used MX-60 to the system purely to use the Aux relay with a used HUB and old but good Mate3. Works perfectly giving us AGS start and stop voltage settings and basic battery voltage graph. I would be interested in other ways to remote control generators with non Outback inverters. FlexNet DC? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Thu Dec 7 15:18:06 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 20:18:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4448 PAE whimpy charge rate. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John, Are these made in Mexico units? We have had a few issues with quality control since the relocation, not specific issue you have, but charger-related. There are two settings – Under the Shore menu make sure Amps are set properly, and then there is the battery charge rate in the setup menu. That inverter should give a 63A charge @ 48VDC, and generally doesn’t really care about power quality even with very cheap generators the charge rate is good. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2023 6:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: John Blittersdorf Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4448 PAE whimpy charge rate. I have noticed on several Magnum Installations that the charge rate is low compared to the inverter rated output. Typically I would assume the charge rate should be up to about 70 to 80 % of the inverter capacity, but I am getting only about 1400 watts (26 amps DC) from it with a 14kw generator. Is there some setting I am missing that would limit it other than the charge %. I know of one system where they added a 2nd Magnum inverter and then had problems with them working together consistently. I have used the 8 kilowatt Radians for any off grid with significant loads and battery capacity and easily get 6000 charging watts from a large generator. I also needed remote control of the generator (Generac EcoGen 15 kw so a quick inexpensive but clunky solution I came up with was to add an old (2003 vintage) used MX-60 to the system purely to use the Aux relay with a used HUB and old but good Mate3. Works perfectly giving us AGS start and stop voltage settings and basic battery voltage graph. I would be interested in other ways to remote control generators with non Outback inverters. FlexNet DC? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Dec 7 15:27:37 2023 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2023 15:27:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combox to Insight Home upgrade Message-ID: <00aa01da294b$d39b7e80$7ad27b80$@glbcc.com> Does anyone know of any gotchas when replacing a Schneider Combox with an Insight Home? I am assuming it is a smooth replacement both from a programming and user online account perspective. I have installed both new upon system installation, but not had to perform an upgrade for a defective unit before. Thanks all! Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Dec 7 16:09:03 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 13:09:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Combox to Insight Home upgrade In-Reply-To: <00aa01da294b$d39b7e80$7ad27b80$@glbcc.com> References: <00aa01da294b$d39b7e80$7ad27b80$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: Follow the quickstart instructions that come with Insight Local. Remove combox from xanbus first as it can cause unspecified behavior. You can connect 3 ways, existing wifi, wifi direct from PC, RJ45 LAN. I would wait on firmware until you have a specific reason for offgrid. Especially with XW+. Good Luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-12-07 12:27 pm, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote: > Does anyone know of any gotchas when replacing a Schneider Combox with > an Insight Home? > > I am assuming it is a smooth replacement both from a programming and > user online account perspective. > > I have installed both new upon system installation, but not had to > perform an upgrade for a defective unit before. > > Thanks all! > > Glenn > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: c488a208.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 129253 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Dec 7 22:09:39 2023 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 19:09:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4448 PAE whimpy charge rate. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi John, I have been vexed about the settings on the 4448 PAE in off grid scenarios too, but am trying to figure out how to make these work as intended? That being said there's a couple of settings that might be messing with this that you can check out. I am  also open to any suggestions here, thanks. Recently I was programming a pair of these using the RTR, check in 02  Control Charger that you're using Multi-Stage. This is also in the Setup 03F Final Charge Stage menu. In Setup 03A AC Input Amps, 60 to 70 Amps max with 1 inverter and 1/2 that with 2. You have probably already set 03E Max Charge Rate up to 100% I reckon. If not give it a shot and see if it will approach the 60 Amps DC per inverter rating. Anyway these RTR menus are from 2014 +/- so I don't know if you have the same menus. Hope this helps. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches Date: 12/6/23 6:08 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Cc: John Blittersdorf Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4448 PAE whimpy charge rate. I have noticed on several Magnum Installations that the charge rate is low compared to the inverter rated output.  Typically I would assume the charge rate should be up to about 70 to 80 % of the inverter capacity, but I am getting only about 1400 watts (26 amps DC) from it with a 14kw generator.  Is there some setting I am missing that would limit it other than the charge %.  I know of one system where they added a 2nd Magnum inverter and then had problems with them working together consistently.  I have used the 8 kilowatt Radians for any off grid with significant loads and battery capacity and easily get 6000 charging watts from a large generator. I also needed remote control of the generator (Generac EcoGen 15 kw so a quick inexpensive but clunky solution I came up with was to add an old (2003 vintage) used MX-60 to the system purely to use the Aux relay with a used HUB and old but good Mate3.  Works perfectly giving us AGS start and stop voltage settings and basic battery voltage graph. I would be interested in other ways to remote control generators with non Outback inverters. FlexNet DC?John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Dec 9 12:42:33 2023 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:42:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow mitigation In-Reply-To: References: <00aa01da294b$d39b7e80$7ad27b80$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <2755cb29-257c-427a-ab39-bc6c9c0cc6ff@psln.com> I've been consulting and helping a friend with a mountaintop PV powered radio system ~7,000' in the No.Sierras. We installed another array this fall but at 60 degree tilt we're still having problems with snow accumulation on the PVs, plus once the weather passes it stays too cold to melt in the bright sun we need to get SOC back up.  Yes, there is genny back-up, but that's no fun for a solar fanatic.             Some wrenches have done this kind of install I know, it would be great to hear of ways to prevent snow from sticking?, ways to shed it unattended, right? Laser from valley floor! Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Sat Dec 9 21:17:54 2023 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don energysolarnow.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2023 02:17:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow mitigation Message-ID: Some time ago there was a post about SMA SunnyBoys that could send current back to the solar panels to melt off snow. This was grid power; but maybe you can use genny or whatever solar power is generated to warm up the snowy panels, presuming some of them are uncovered. Either that or set them steeper to shed the snow. Don Barch Energy Solar Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 09:42:33 -0800 From: Bill Battagin To: offgridsolar at sti.net, Wrenchlist Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snow mitigation Message-ID: <2755cb29-257c-427a-ab39-bc6c9c0cc6ff at psln.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" I've been consulting and helping a friend with a mountaintop PV powered radio system ~7,000' in the No.Sierras. We installed another array this fall but at 60 degree tilt we're still having problems with snow accumulation on the PVs, plus once the weather passes it stays too cold to melt in the bright sun we need to get SOC back up.? Yes, there is genny back-up, but that's no fun for a solar fanatic. ??? ??? ??? Some wrenches have done this kind of install I know, it would be great to hear of ways to prevent snow from sticking?, ways to shed it unattended, right? Laser from valley floor! Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, owner 4291 Nelson St. (Shipping) 5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS) Taylorsville, CA 95983 530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell) CA. C10 Lic # 874049 Solar Powered since 1982 Home of the Sunny Side Up -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 09:55:33 2023 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 09:55:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker Message-ID: Wrenches We have a project where the homeowner has some of those bedside lamps where you touch them to turn them on/off/dim (rather than having a switch). It seems like when the Enphase Gateway is powered up it causes the lights to freak out. Once we flip the breaker to the Gateway off the lamp operates as normalZ Interestingly, with another load (homeowner was using a dehumidifier) plugged into the circuit it seems to stabilize the lights. We isolated the problem to the Gateway specifically (ie having PV breakers on/off doesn’t make a difference). It’s a supply side connection. The house is small but we tried the lamp in multiple parts of the house and it happens everywhere. Enphase doesn’t have any ideas. Anyone have this happen to them? I think we might just need to buy them some new lamps, but I’m also interested to understand what is happening. These are just some cheap lamps, but wondering if other household loads that are more sensitive might be affected as well? Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Dec 11 11:42:36 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 08:42:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adam: I have experienced the same scenario some years ago with an oval gateway. We tried some filters but they did not help. We did not have an isolated load center for the gateway. I think the client bought a new lamp without touch control. You need to connect the gateway and inverter to an isolated load center so you can put a filter on the feeder to that subpanel. William *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *AE Solar via RE-wrenches *Sent:* Monday, December 11, 2023 6:56 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* AE Solar *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker Wrenches We have a project where the homeowner has some of those bedside lamps where you touch them to turn them on/off/dim (rather than having a switch). It seems like when the Enphase Gateway is powered up it causes the lights to freak out. Once we flip the breaker to the Gateway off the lamp operates as normalZ Interestingly, with another load (homeowner was using a dehumidifier) plugged into the circuit it seems to stabilize the lights. We isolated the problem to the Gateway specifically (ie having PV breakers on/off doesn’t make a difference). It’s a supply side connection. The house is small but we tried the lamp in multiple parts of the house and it happens everywhere. Enphase doesn’t have any ideas. Anyone have this happen to them? I think we might just need to buy them some new lamps, but I’m also interested to understand what is happening. These are just some cheap lamps, but wondering if other household loads that are more sensitive might be affected as well? Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 13:11:37 2023 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 10:11:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3920F154-7701-4E56-9525-7C53380ACB55@yahoo.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Dec 11 13:45:22 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 10:45:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker In-Reply-To: <3920F154-7701-4E56-9525-7C53380ACB55@yahoo.com> References: <3920F154-7701-4E56-9525-7C53380ACB55@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't have experience with Enphase's battery system nor have I seen this issue with the touch lights. However, I wonder if there might be something up with neutrals or grounds on the site? Disconnected neutrals, neutrals bonded to ground in more than one location, lack of a good ground grounding electrode system, neutrals mixed up between backup side of IQ System Controller and non-backup side, etc. Might be worth checking out? August Luminalt On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 10:13 AM Solar Energy Solutions via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Adam, > > We have a clause in all of our contracts that reads “prices not include > any un-anticipatable events” > > While I can understand the need to placate clients, the days of solar > martyrdom needs to end! Is that line replacing a $10 lamp with a $40 lamp? > That is up to you. > > Keep up the good work! > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > President > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* > > *Since 1987,** helping you and your * > *Portland neighbors move** towards an environmentally sustainable future.* > > > *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > On Dec 11, 2023, at 8:43 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > > Adam: > > > > I have experienced the same scenario some years ago with an oval gateway. > We tried some filters but they did not help. We did not have an isolated > load center for the gateway. I think the client bought a new lamp without > touch control. > > > > You need to connect the gateway and inverter to an isolated load center so > you can put a filter on the feeder to that subpanel. > > > > William > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *AE Solar via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, December 11, 2023 6:56 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* AE Solar > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker > > > > Wrenches > > We have a project where the homeowner has some of those bedside lamps > where you touch them to turn them on/off/dim (rather than having a switch). > It seems like when the Enphase Gateway is powered up it causes the lights > to freak out. Once we flip the breaker to the Gateway off the lamp operates > as normalZ Interestingly, with another load (homeowner was using a > dehumidifier) plugged into the circuit it seems to stabilize the lights. We > isolated the problem to the Gateway specifically (ie having PV breakers > on/off doesn’t make a difference). It’s a supply side connection. The house > is small but we tried the lamp in multiple parts of the house and it > happens everywhere. Enphase doesn’t have any ideas. Anyone have this > happen to them? > > > > I think we might just need to buy them some new lamps, but I’m also > interested to understand what is happening. These are just some cheap > lamps, but wondering if other household loads that are more sensitive might > be affected as well? > > > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 13:47:38 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 11:47:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydraulic KO tool Message-ID: <7F057898-70D6-47D5-AF49-7740A27AD2F2@gmail.com> I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an inexpensive hydraulic KO tool. I have a project where I need to punch some 4” holes in gutter. I can’t get a jig saw or anything in there and a 4” hole saw bit is crazy expensive. There are many inexpensive hydraulic tools out there that should work for a holes. Just thought I’d check to see if anyone has any suggestions. Thx Jay From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Dec 11 14:07:58 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 14:07:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydraulic KO tool In-Reply-To: <7F057898-70D6-47D5-AF49-7740A27AD2F2@gmail.com> References: <7F057898-70D6-47D5-AF49-7740A27AD2F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Best thing is to buy a hydraulic set from Amazon or another online source. I'm talking China-made, not the highest quality but cheap is what you're looking for, especially if it's only being used once a year. I have a similar set I've had for 6-7 years now and it's been fine. On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 1:48 PM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an inexpensive hydraulic > KO tool. > > I have a project where I need to punch some 4” holes in gutter. > I can’t get a jig saw or anything in there and a 4” hole saw bit is crazy > expensive. > > There are many inexpensive hydraulic tools out there that should work for > a holes. Just thought I’d check to see if anyone has any suggestions. > > Thx > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruce at mendocinosolar.com Mon Dec 11 14:24:09 2023 From: bruce at mendocinosolar.com (Bruce Erickson) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 11:24:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydraulic KO tool In-Reply-To: References: <7F057898-70D6-47D5-AF49-7740A27AD2F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FC4F6D5-E699-4093-932F-8E33AB236187@mendocinosolar.com> A cheap one from Harbor Freight has worked well for us for occasional use. Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service 707-937-1701 PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 "Serving the Solar System" > On Dec 11, 2023, at 11:07 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote: > > Best thing is to buy a hydraulic set from Amazon or another online source. I'm talking China-made, not the highest quality but cheap is what you're looking for, especially if it's only being used once a year. I have a similar set I've had for 6-7 years now and it's been fine. > > On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 1:48 PM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: > I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an inexpensive hydraulic KO tool. > > I have a project where I need to punch some 4” holes in gutter. > I can’t get a jig saw or anything in there and a 4” hole saw bit is crazy expensive. > > There are many inexpensive hydraulic tools out there that should work for a holes. Just thought I’d check to see if anyone has any suggestions. > > Thx > > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!! > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Dec 11 15:49:09 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2023 15:49:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hydraulic KO tool Message-ID: I bought one from Harbor Freight a dozen years ago and it has worked like a champ for a half dozen times a year I need it. I did have to bleed some air from the line earlier this year, but it has been the only maintenance it has needed.I also had to knock some 3" and 4" holes in a 600A panelboard and bought a large KO die set on Amazon made by TEMCo for $170 and have never regretted it!-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jay via RE-wrenchesDate: Mon, Dec 11, 2023 1:48 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Jay;Subject:[RE-wrenches] Hydraulic KO toolI’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an inexpensive hydraulic KO tool. I have a project where I need to punch some 4” holes in gutter. I can’t get a jig saw or anything in there and a 4” hole saw bit is crazy expensive. There are many inexpensive hydraulic tools out there that should work for a holes. Just thought I’d check to see if anyone has any suggestions. Thx Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 09:22:32 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 09:22:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Gateway causing lamp to flicker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My guess is that the lamp is too sensitive. I find that the cheapest LED bulb from home depot flicker whether using inverter power or generator power. All other LEDs in the house work fine. Like a fool, I keep buying the cheap ones. I totally agree with Andrew " While I can understand the need to placate clients, the days of solar martyrdom needs to end! " Being in the darkest time of year, I spend way too much time placating. John Blittersdorf On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 9:56 AM AE Solar via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches > We have a project where the homeowner has some of those bedside lamps > where you touch them to turn them on/off/dim (rather than having a switch). > It seems like when the Enphase Gateway is powered up it causes the lights > to freak out. Once we flip the breaker to the Gateway off the lamp operates > as normalZ Interestingly, with another load (homeowner was using a > dehumidifier) plugged into the circuit it seems to stabilize the lights. We > isolated the problem to the Gateway specifically (ie having PV breakers > on/off doesn’t make a difference). It’s a supply side connection. The house > is small but we tried the lamp in multiple parts of the house and it > happens everywhere. Enphase doesn’t have any ideas. Anyone have this > happen to them? > > I think we might just need to buy them some new lamps, but I’m also > interested to understand what is happening. These are just some cheap > lamps, but wondering if other household loads that are more sensitive might > be affected as well? > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Tue Dec 12 11:24:19 2023 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 08:24:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters Message-ID: <1702398259.93730854@webmail.finestplanet.com> Wrenches, I am receiving conflicting information about using a Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters. Has anyone done this and was the 3s able to function correctly? Thanks, Todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Dec 12 11:44:42 2023 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 16:44:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters In-Reply-To: <1702398259.93730854@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1702398259.93730854@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: I think it depends on the firmware/age on the FX and the software revision on the Mate3s.. Talk to Chris at Outback if you can. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Todd Cory via RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2023 11:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: toddcory at finestplanet.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters Wrenches, I am receiving conflicting information about using a Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters. Has anyone done this and was the 3s able to function correctly? Thanks, Todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Tue Dec 12 12:51:40 2023 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 10:51:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14920b05-bf25-15e5-3425-4b66da3d87fc@midnitesolar.com> Darren Emmons who designed the Mate 3S says that when he left OB, it  DID work with those older products. So, unless they changed something, it should still work with legacy inverters etc. 🌜boB🌛 From roland at renewablenergy.com Tue Dec 12 15:13:46 2023 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 10:13:46 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters In-Reply-To: References: <1702398259.93730854@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: We have numerous systems, with no programing or Mate display issues, however the oldest FX series wont display correctly on Optics RE and wont allow remote programability through Optics RE. Roland Shackelford President / Owner NABCEP PVIP #091209-162 O 808.775.7410 | M 808.938.9239 | 45-487 Lehua St Honokaa, HI 96727 Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc. " Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, there will be an atmosphere for success." - Sadhguru On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 6:45 AM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think it depends on the firmware/age on the FX and the software revision > on the Mate3s.. Talk to Chris at Outback if you can. > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Todd Cory via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 12, 2023 11:24 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* toddcory at finestplanet.com > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters > > > Wrenches, > > I am receiving conflicting information about using a Mate 3s with legacy > FX inverters. Has anyone done this and was the 3s able to function > correctly? > > Thanks, > > Todd > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 16:55:48 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2023 14:55:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s with legacy FX inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <786F81CD-B069-4530-9005-5B2DB0D7CC90@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Dec 13 10:52:02 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 10:52:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance error Message-ID: Hi All, I am curious to hear if anyone else has run into this: This is the system I posted about a little while ago that had the SolarWorld modules and all the module to module connectors were swollen and melted. One of the inverters was giving an insulation resistance error, and so after seeing the module connectors, I was sure that was the issue. We replaced every single module connector with new MC4's, and then the error came back! My next step was to swap in the junction box which strings go to which inverter to identify whether the issue was on the roof or somewhere between the roof jbox and the inverter. (the issue was isolated to only 1 of 4 strings previously). Turns out the same inverter is faulting, which leads me to believe that there may be an issue with the wires in the DC conduit. Maybe they got damaged by a rough wire pull at the initial installation 7 years ago, and its finally degraded enough to cause a problem. The fault is intermittent, only showing up once every couple weeks or so, so it is difficult to catch it while the fault is active. But my question is, could there also be something wrong with the inverter itself? After spending a lot of time on this one, ideally, I would know that replacing the DC wires will fix it. So I am curious if people have done this, to still find that the issue was something internal to the inverter. Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Dec 13 11:01:16 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 11:01:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cb3e53349aeff56f520fb7af7c2b1af@redwoodalliance.org> It could be the inverter. The TL-22 series had a lot of problems with false arc fault errors. _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-12-13 10:52, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi All, > > I am curious to hear if anyone else has run into this: > > This is the system I posted about a little while ago that had the SolarWorld modules and all the module to module connectors were swollen and melted. One of the inverters was giving an insulation resistance error, and so after seeing the module connectors, I was sure that was the issue. We replaced every single module connector with new MC4's, and then the error came back! > > My next step was to swap in the junction box which strings go to which inverter to identify whether the issue was on the roof or somewhere between the roof jbox and the inverter. (the issue was isolated to only 1 of 4 strings previously). Turns out the same inverter is faulting, which leads me to believe that there may be an issue with the wires in the DC conduit. Maybe they got damaged by a rough wire pull at the initial installation 7 years ago, and its finally degraded enough to cause a problem. The fault is intermittent, only showing up once every couple weeks or so, so it is difficult to catch it while the fault is active. > > But my question is, could there also be something wrong with the inverter itself? After spending a lot of time on this one, ideally, I would know that replacing the DC wires will fix it. So I am curious if people have done this, to still find that the issue was something internal to the inverter. > > Thanks! > -Dave > -- > > [1] > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com [2] > c: (607) 270-0370 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://www.sungineersolar.com/ [2] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Dec 13 11:05:13 2023 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 11:05:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance error Message-ID: <1o321bikbdt0mh2e73j8e5p8.1702483306763@email.lge.com> Could be moisture accumulation in the conduit over the years along with a minor insulation damage.I am tracing a similar intermittent on an Aurora roof mount. Incompatible MC connectors are my first pass at repair, however has also not corrected the issue.Only fails after rain.IRT testing did not reveal any clue, but it is hard to coordinate testing availability with weather conditions.Original installer long gone...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenchesDate: Wed, Dec 13, 2023 10:52 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Dave Tedeyan;Subject:[RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance errorHi All,I am curious to hear if anyone else has run into this:This is the system I posted about a little while ago that had the SolarWorld modules and all the module to module connectors were swollen and melted. One of the inverters was giving an insulation resistance error, and so after seeing the module connectors, I was sure that was the issue. We replaced every single module connector with new MC4's, and then the error came back!My next step was to swap in the junction box which strings go to which inverter to identify whether the issue was on the roof or somewhere between the roof jbox and the inverter. (the issue was isolated to only 1 of 4 strings previously). Turns out the same inverter is faulting, which leads me to believe that there may be an issue with the wires in the DC conduit. Maybe they got damaged by a rough wire pull at the initial installation 7 years ago, and its finally degraded enough to cause a problem. The fault is intermittent, only showing up once every couple weeks or so, so it is difficult to catch it while the fault is active. But my question is, could there also be something wrong with the inverter itself? After spending a lot of time on this one, ideally, I would know that replacing the DC wires will fix it. So I am curious if people have done this, to still find that the issue was something internal to the inverter.Thanks!-Dave-- Dave Tedeyan, P.E.Owner | Sungineer Solarp: he | him | hisa: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850w: www.sungineersolar.comc: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Dec 13 11:08:03 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 11:08:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay Message-ID: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> Hello, Does anyone know of a 48 VDC temperature sensing relay? I need to use one to control a fan in a 48 V battery bank, to bring in cold air when the bank gets too hot from the wood heating system in the house. The relay needs to operate with the 48 VDC power supply and disconnect a small current with 48 VDC contacts. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Dec 13 11:25:50 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 08:25:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay In-Reply-To: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> References: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake: I tried running 48 VDC muffin fans on battery voltage. They failed. I switched to a Dc-Dc converter (12 or 24, can’t remember) from digi-key and problem solved. Point being battery voltage ranges may be too extreme for some components. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:08 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, > > Does anyone know of a 48 VDC temperature sensing relay? I need to use one > to control a fan in a 48 V battery bank, to bring in cold air when the bank > gets too hot from the wood heating system in the house. > > The relay needs to operate with the 48 VDC power supply and disconnect a > small current with 48 VDC contacts. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 11:52:17 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:52:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay In-Reply-To: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> References: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <744D2F1C-E824-49D2-816E-8A87C21A97D8@gmail.com> Hi Drake Try this one. I get a lot of equipment from supply house. Since you need on with temp rise it’s an AC type. This one will do 8 amps at 120v so a small amp dc fan won’t hurt the relay. Jay https://www.supplyhouse.com/White-Rodgers-1609-101-Refrigeration-Temperature-Control-30-Degrees-F-To-90-Degrees-F-Range-5-Capillary?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_New_users&gad_source=1 > On Dec 13, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >  > Hello, > > Does anyone know of a 48 VDC temperature sensing relay? I need to use one to control a fan in a 48 V battery bank, to bring in cold air when the bank gets too hot from the wood heating system in the house. > > The relay needs to operate with the 48 VDC power supply and disconnect a small current with 48 VDC contacts. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Dec 13 11:55:23 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 11:55:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay In-Reply-To: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> References: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, Look up Stego snap-action t-stats at automationdirect.com. [image: image.png] They are offered in NO or NC versions. contacts rated for up to 30W @ 24-72 vdc. Din rail mountable, $21 ea. On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 11:08 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hello, > > Does anyone know of a 48 VDC temperature sensing relay? I need to use one > to control a fan in a 48 V battery bank, to bring in cold air when the bank > gets too hot from the wood heating system in the house. > > The relay needs to operate with the 48 VDC power supply and disconnect a > small current with 48 VDC contacts. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > *Drake Chamberlin* > > *Athens Electric LLC* > > *Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional* > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 242845 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 12:05:01 2023 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 10:05:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance error In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7588AC41-D252-4783-9400-DD77AC2CACA4@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Dec 13 12:29:18 2023 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 09:29:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance error In-Reply-To: <7588AC41-D252-4783-9400-DD77AC2CACA4@gmail.com> References: <7588AC41-D252-4783-9400-DD77AC2CACA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: You might want to make sure that the SMA inverter has the latest firmware. It's been a long time since we've routinely installed these, but at one point arc faults were being falsely tripped and firmware updates from SMA helped with the issue. https://my.sma-service.com/s/article/Loading-Firmware-for-an-SB-US-TL22-or-STP-US-10-using-a-2-GB-SD-Card?language=en_US August Luminalt On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 9:07 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > I think that using a megger etc to test the panels and wires is what I’d > do before I yanked out all the > Wires. > > They are not that expensive anymore and maybe possible to rent one? > > Jay > > On Dec 13, 2023, at 8:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >  > Hi All, > > I am curious to hear if anyone else has run into this: > > This is the system I posted about a little while ago that had the > SolarWorld modules and all the module to module connectors were swollen and > melted. One of the inverters was giving an insulation resistance error, and > so after seeing the module connectors, I was sure that was the issue. We > replaced every single module connector with new MC4's, and then the error > came back! > > My next step was to swap in the junction box which strings go to which > inverter to identify whether the issue was on the roof or somewhere between > the roof jbox and the inverter. (the issue was isolated to only 1 of 4 > strings previously). Turns out the same inverter is faulting, which leads > me to believe that there may be an issue with the wires in the DC conduit. > Maybe they got damaged by a rough wire pull at the initial installation 7 > years ago, and its finally degraded enough to cause a problem. The fault is > intermittent, only showing up once every couple weeks or so, so it is > difficult to catch it while the fault is active. > > But my question is, could there also be something wrong with the inverter > itself? After spending a lot of time on this one, ideally, I would know > that replacing the DC wires will fix it. So I am curious if people have > done this, to still find that the issue was something internal to the > inverter. > > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 270-0370 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Dec 13 14:45:32 2023 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 14:45:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance error In-Reply-To: References: <7588AC41-D252-4783-9400-DD77AC2CACA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just an FYI, it is specifically an "insulation resistance" error that the inverter is throwing, and not an "arc fault" error. Fortunately it is not an arc fault. Meggering is not a bad idea, although due to the fact that the fault is intermittent, that might not show anything? Cheers, Dave On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 12:30 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > You might want to make sure that the SMA inverter has the latest firmware. > It's been a long time since we've routinely installed these, but at one > point arc faults were being falsely tripped and firmware updates from SMA > helped with the issue. > > > https://my.sma-service.com/s/article/Loading-Firmware-for-an-SB-US-TL22-or-STP-US-10-using-a-2-GB-SD-Card?language=en_US > > August > Luminalt > > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 9:07 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> I think that using a megger etc to test the panels and wires is what I’d >> do before I yanked out all the >> Wires. >> >> They are not that expensive anymore and maybe possible to rent one? >> >> Jay >> >> On Dec 13, 2023, at 8:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>  >> Hi All, >> >> I am curious to hear if anyone else has run into this: >> >> This is the system I posted about a little while ago that had the >> SolarWorld modules and all the module to module connectors were swollen and >> melted. One of the inverters was giving an insulation resistance error, and >> so after seeing the module connectors, I was sure that was the issue. We >> replaced every single module connector with new MC4's, and then the error >> came back! >> >> My next step was to swap in the junction box which strings go to which >> inverter to identify whether the issue was on the roof or somewhere between >> the roof jbox and the inverter. (the issue was isolated to only 1 of 4 >> strings previously). Turns out the same inverter is faulting, which leads >> me to believe that there may be an issue with the wires in the DC conduit. >> Maybe they got damaged by a rough wire pull at the initial installation 7 >> years ago, and its finally degraded enough to cause a problem. The fault is >> intermittent, only showing up once every couple weeks or so, so it is >> difficult to catch it while the fault is active. >> >> But my question is, could there also be something wrong with the inverter >> itself? After spending a lot of time on this one, ideally, I would know >> that replacing the DC wires will fix it. So I am curious if people have >> done this, to still find that the issue was something internal to the >> inverter. >> >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 270-0370 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.white at fluke.com Wed Dec 13 14:57:38 2023 From: will.white at fluke.com (White, Will) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:57:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance error In-Reply-To: References: <7588AC41-D252-4783-9400-DD77AC2CACA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: It depends on how bad the fault is. Insulation resistance testing can definitely find some intermittent ground faults. Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2023 2:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Dave Tedeyan Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA TL-22 insulation resistance error CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Just an FYI, it is specifically an "insulation resistance" error that the inverter is throwing, and not an "arc fault" error. Fortunately it is not an arc fault. Meggering is not a bad idea, although due to the fact that the fault is intermittent, that might not show anything? Cheers, Dave On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 12:30 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches > wrote: You might want to make sure that the SMA inverter has the latest firmware. It's been a long time since we've routinely installed these, but at one point arc faults were being falsely tripped and firmware updates from SMA helped with the issue. https://my.sma-service.com/s/article/Loading-Firmware-for-an-SB-US-TL22-or-STP-US-10-using-a-2-GB-SD-Card?language=en_US August Luminalt On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 9:07 AM Jay via RE-wrenches > wrote: I think that using a megger etc to test the panels and wires is what I’d do before I yanked out all the Wires. They are not that expensive anymore and maybe possible to rent one? Jay On Dec 13, 2023, at 8:53 AM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches > wrote:  Hi All, I am curious to hear if anyone else has run into this: This is the system I posted about a little while ago that had the SolarWorld modules and all the module to module connectors were swollen and melted. One of the inverters was giving an insulation resistance error, and so after seeing the module connectors, I was sure that was the issue. We replaced every single module connector with new MC4's, and then the error came back! My next step was to swap in the junction box which strings go to which inverter to identify whether the issue was on the roof or somewhere between the roof jbox and the inverter. (the issue was isolated to only 1 of 4 strings previously). Turns out the same inverter is faulting, which leads me to believe that there may be an issue with the wires in the DC conduit. Maybe they got damaged by a rough wire pull at the initial installation 7 years ago, and its finally degraded enough to cause a problem. The fault is intermittent, only showing up once every couple weeks or so, so it is difficult to catch it while the fault is active. But my question is, could there also be something wrong with the inverter itself? After spending a lot of time on this one, ideally, I would know that replacing the DC wires will fix it. So I am curious if people have done this, to still find that the issue was something internal to the inverter. Thanks! -Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 270-0370 ________________________________ Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and delete this message. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Dec 13 19:47:05 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:47:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay In-Reply-To: References: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <04ff5804b58af3a81ae45e8c647782bd@redwoodalliance.org> William, I'm planning to use a 48 V battery vent fan, turned around backwards, to blow air into the box. Thank you, Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-12-13 11:25, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: > Drake: > > I tried running 48 VDC muffin fans on battery voltage. They failed. I switched to a Dc-Dc converter (12 or 24, can't remember) from digi-key and problem solved. > > Point being battery voltage ranges may be too extreme for some components. > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [1] > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:08 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Does anyone know of a 48 VDC temperature sensing relay? I need to use one to control a fan in a 48 V battery bank, to bring in cold air when the bank gets too hot from the wood heating system in the house. >> >> The relay needs to operate with the 48 VDC power supply and disconnect a small current with 48 VDC contacts. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> _Drake Chamberlin_ >> >> _Athens Electric LLC_ >> >> _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ >> >> _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpegg at energyalternatives.ca Wed Dec 13 23:14:15 2023 From: kpegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 04:14:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay In-Reply-To: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> References: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Have you considered using a thermostat? Like the A19 series. Mechanical, non-electric. Kevin From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: December-13-23 8:08 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay Hello, Does anyone know of a 48 VDC temperature sensing relay? I need to use one to control a fan in a 48 V battery bank, to bring in cold air when the bank gets too hot from the wood heating system in the house. The relay needs to operate with the 48 VDC power supply and disconnect a small current with 48 VDC contacts. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Dec 14 08:37:42 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 13:37:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay In-Reply-To: <744D2F1C-E824-49D2-816E-8A87C21A97D8@gmail.com> References: <3ef08410b466cba9112c8719479fb5c1@redwoodalliance.org> <744D2F1C-E824-49D2-816E-8A87C21A97D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: White-Rodgers-1609-101-Refrigeration-Temperature-Control- I have used this many times in various applications some close on temp rise other model closes on temp drop. Quite reliable! ___________________________________________________ Dana Orzel c- 2087217003 e - dana at solarwork.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jay via RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 48 V DC temp sensing relay Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 16:52:17 +0000 Size: 17114 URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 21:36:53 2023 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2023 21:36:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic load control Message-ID: Hi all, I am trying to figure out best options to control loads in a Sol-Ark15k battery backup residential system. It's been quite a few years since I've set up an automatic load control, and never with a Sol-Ark. The Sol-Ark will output to the main breaker panel, so no separate "backed up" panel - all house loads will likely be on the Sol-Ark's load side. What do folks like to use in this type of circumstance to automatically shed loads when the grid is down, either sequentially as the battery bank drops down or more simply triggered by loss of grid? Are they pieces of equipment that work specifically with the Sol-Ark? I'd also be open to considering Fortress's Envy, if there is an option that would work well specifically with it. I'm interested in the range of options from simple to complicated, as long as it is automated. All automated ideas/options appreciated. Thanks! Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at quattrosolar.com Fri Dec 15 04:20:39 2023 From: david at quattrosolar.com (david quattro) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 01:20:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic load control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SPAN Panel, or you can try Generac 7006 automatic load shed device (100A) https://apelectric.com/generac-7006-smart-management-module/ Or G7000 (50Amp) I’ve heard they work with other inverters, not just GENERAC only, but of course you’d have no warranty when mixing brands. David On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 6:36 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I am trying to figure out best options to control loads in a Sol-Ark15k > battery backup residential system. It's been quite a few years since I've > set up an automatic load control, and never with a Sol-Ark. The Sol-Ark > will output to the main breaker panel, so no separate "backed up" panel - > all house loads will likely be on the Sol-Ark's load side. > > What do folks like to use in this type of circumstance to automatically > shed loads when the grid is down, either sequentially as the battery bank > drops down or more simply triggered by loss of grid? Are they pieces of > equipment that work specifically with the Sol-Ark? > I'd also be open to considering Fortress's Envy, if there is an option > that would work well specifically with it. > I'm interested in the range of options from simple to complicated, as long > as it is automated. All automated ideas/options appreciated. > Thanks! > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Dec 15 07:27:03 2023 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 04:27:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic load control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie: Segregated load distribution. Simple, automatic. I don’t get why they put 200 amp pass-through on an inverter that can only produce 62.5 amps. William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 6:37 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I am trying to figure out best options to control loads in a Sol-Ark15k > battery backup residential system. It's been quite a few years since I've > set up an automatic load control, and never with a Sol-Ark. The Sol-Ark > will output to the main breaker panel, so no separate "backed up" panel - > all house loads will likely be on the Sol-Ark's load side. > > What do folks like to use in this type of circumstance to automatically > shed loads when the grid is down, either sequentially as the battery bank > drops down or more simply triggered by loss of grid? Are they pieces of > equipment that work specifically with the Sol-Ark? > I'd also be open to considering Fortress's Envy, if there is an option > that would work well specifically with it. > I'm interested in the range of options from simple to complicated, as long > as it is automated. All automated ideas/options appreciated. > Thanks! > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 08:46:52 2023 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 03:46:52 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic load control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha Howie, The Lumin Smart Panel has worked well for us. https://www.luminsmart.com/ Software is simple and tech support was on point. The app works well also. Bonus...you can remotely monitor power consumption on each controlled load. Two minor hang ups: 1. Having to run a separate "grid sense" circuit. This circuit has to be pulled from a location that is on the grid side of the Sol-Ark. This can be in a pain when the load you wanna dump is on sub panel clear across the property from the inverter. I am sure this the case with all these load shedding type devices. 2. You have to do a training to install them. It was a short webinar. Super easy. On Fri, Dec 15, 2023, 2:28 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Howie: > > Segregated load distribution. Simple, automatic. > > I don’t get why they put 200 amp pass-through on an inverter that can only > produce 62.5 amps. > > > William Miller > Miller Solar.com > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 6:37 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I am trying to figure out best options to control loads in a Sol-Ark15k >> battery backup residential system. It's been quite a few years since I've >> set up an automatic load control, and never with a Sol-Ark. The Sol-Ark >> will output to the main breaker panel, so no separate "backed up" panel - >> all house loads will likely be on the Sol-Ark's load side. >> >> What do folks like to use in this type of circumstance to automatically >> shed loads when the grid is down, either sequentially as the battery bank >> drops down or more simply triggered by loss of grid? Are they pieces of >> equipment that work specifically with the Sol-Ark? >> I'd also be open to considering Fortress's Envy, if there is an option >> that would work well specifically with it. >> I'm interested in the range of options from simple to complicated, as >> long as it is automated. All automated ideas/options appreciated. >> Thanks! >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Dec 15 09:46:20 2023 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 07:46:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic load control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have two Sol-Ark / Fortress deployments just finished/in progress and one uses seven Lumin panels for load shedding and the other has SPANs. In retrospect the Lumin project should have used SPAN since it was a new construction project and the Lumin is more of a retrofit product in my opinion. We have been pairing Lumin panels with Tesla Powerwalls for at least five years as a way of using a single PW to provide whole home backup and it's a very solid product with excellent support. I think we're going to see more and more standard electrical panels being built as "smart" panels that will include load shedding capabilities as demand management becomes more and more of a smart financial decision with rising energy costs. But for now it's still niche products like these. - Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Dec 16 10:27:53 2023 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:27:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Automatic load control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <126b4e3de3f8e80530085927ccdc7929@redwoodalliance.org> I use a Morningstar relay driver and 48 VDC relays to drop loads as the battery voltage drops. It works fine, and avoids the necessity of complex electronics. Drake _Drake Chamberlin_ _Athens Electric LLC_ _Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ _NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_ --- On 2023-12-14 21:36, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote: > Hi all, > > I am trying to figure out best options to control loads in a Sol-Ark15k battery backup residential system. It's been quite a few years since I've set up an automatic load control, and never with a Sol-Ark. The Sol-Ark will output to the main breaker panel, so no separate "backed up" panel - all house loads will likely be on the Sol-Ark's load side. > > What do folks like to use in this type of circumstance to automatically shed loads when the grid is down, either sequentially as the battery bank drops down or more simply triggered by loss of grid? Are they pieces of equipment that work specifically with the Sol-Ark? > I'd also be open to considering Fortress's Envy, if there is an option that would work well specifically with it. > I'm interested in the range of options from simple to complicated, as long as it is automated. All automated ideas/options appreciated. > Thanks! > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Mon Dec 18 18:16:03 2023 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 23:16:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OpticsRE Message-ID: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> Anyone know what’s going on with OpticsRE? Their sites been down since last Friday. TIA Sent from my iPhone From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Dec 18 18:21:06 2023 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:21:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OpticsRE In-Reply-To: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> References: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: <54b2f63fffa95f55b784784bb9787111@sti.net> Did you try it on another ISP? I sometimes hear this about Schneider Insight and it never is down. It always is the ISP or cell. Good Luck Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2] [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On 2023-12-18 3:16 pm, Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches wrote: > Anyone know what's going on with OpticsRE? Their sites been down since > last Friday. TIA > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] https://offgridsolar1.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com Mon Dec 18 18:20:59 2023 From: kirpal at oregonsolarworks.com (Kirpal Khalsa) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 15:20:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OpticsRE In-Reply-To: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> References: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: Add 'www' to the website address instead of just opticsre.com and it should work... Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:17 PM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Anyone know what’s going on with OpticsRE? Their sites been down since > last Friday. TIA > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Dec 18 18:25:38 2023 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 18:25:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OpticsRE In-Reply-To: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> References: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: use the full URL, meaning www.opticsre.com, not just opticsre.com. It works fine for me this way., just discovered this. Somehow related to their recent upgrade. On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 6:17 PM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Anyone know what’s going on with OpticsRE? Their sites been down since > last Friday. TIA > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.559.1225 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Dec 18 21:57:02 2023 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 20:57:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OpticsRE In-Reply-To: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> References: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: favicon.ico Type: image/x-icon Size: 1150 bytes Desc: not available URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 23:08:12 2023 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2023 23:08:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OpticsRE In-Reply-To: References: <7869931C-1C92-419E-BD00-5AC18B14931D@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: Thankyou Kirk. On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 6:26 PM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > use the full URL, meaning www.opticsre.com, not just opticsre.com. It > works fine for me this way., just discovered this. Somehow related to their > recent upgrade. > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 6:17 PM Foxfire Energy via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Anyone know what’s going on with OpticsRE? Their sites been down since >> last Friday. TIA >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!* > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.559.1225 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 20 19:37:41 2023 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 00:37:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] An Aspen Builder asked me an opinion Message-ID: An old friend who works for an Aspen Builder asked me my opinion: * $40M home. * 11,000sqft. * 22KW PV system covers the available roofing. * Large generator for backup. * Dedicated critical load panel. Question was: Would you install a Brightvault or Sonan system? & Why one VS the other? It is one or the other... I have not installed either. Size limitations on battery? Compatibility with genset? Inverter size limitations? Integration with home automation systems issues? Reliability? Warranty issues from either? Other issues? Thanks in advance for your 0.02 _________________________________________________________ Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! C - 208.721.7003 E - dana at solarwork.com W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Dec 21 06:56:52 2023 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2023 06:56:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] An Aspen Builder asked me an opinion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Watching with interest. We deal with similar circumstances/requests in Naples, FL often. I'll comment on the battery capacity limit. If the jurisdiction has adopted and enforces NFPA 1, and by extension, NFPA 855, you will be limited to 80kWh of battery capacity unless you place them in a detached structure. Nonetheless, that is a pretty good pairing for a 22kW system in most circumstances. It should drastically reduce the generator run time while providing a sizable buffer for the available daytime solar energy. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 7:39 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > An old friend who works for an Aspen Builder asked me my opinion: > > > > - $40M home. > - 11,000sqft. > - 22KW PV system covers the available roofing. > - Large generator for backup. > - Dedicated critical load panel. > > > > Question was: Would you install a Brightvault or Sonan system? > > & Why one VS the other? It is one or the other… > > I have not installed either. > > > > Size limitations on battery? > > Compatibility with genset? > > Inverter size limitations? > > Integration with home automation systems issues? > > Reliability? > > Warranty issues from either? > > > > Other issues? > > > > Thanks in advance for your 0.02 > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Dana Orzel GREAT SOLAR WORKS! > > C – 208.721.7003 E – dana at solarwork.com > > W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com > > *“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Sat Dec 23 18:45:59 2023 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 16:45:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conergy solar module issues Message-ID: <006001da35fa$2ea7dca0$8bf795e0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: About 10 years ago we sold some Conergy 250W solar modules. Well, they aren't holding up too well; does anyone have any possible warranty contact info? I believe Soligent bought Conergy in 2014, but they are being largely unhelpful. Please contact me off list if you have any information of use. Happy holidays! Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Dec 23 21:13:16 2023 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2023 19:13:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conergy solar module issues In-Reply-To: <006001da35fa$2ea7dca0$8bf795e0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <006001da35fa$2ea7dca0$8bf795e0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <24A6FE93-60C6-445E-AFCE-8FC6F2017E59@sindelarsolar.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: