From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jan 1 14:40:09 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 11:40:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless float switch control In-Reply-To: References: <1C4255AB-9F53-4F81-85B4-A9929409166F@me.com> Message-ID: <8355a535-b32c-2e67-c0c7-b256ed7f608e@villagepowerdesign.com> Welcome Back Nick! Nice to see your name here - Wrenches continues to be a fabulous resource - some of us have been here close to 25 years! So check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhUGGjv5WM I don't have direct experience with this wireless sensor but it looks solid: https://www.rpssolarpumps.com/ A google search reveals some others that look less expensive so take a look. Hope that helps, Best > Nick A Lucchese > December 31, 2020 at 10:20 AM > Greetings Wrenches, > > I’ve mostly been trying to get away from pumping systems but decided > to take on a small solar direct Grundfos system for a friend’s mother > that lives on my road. The well and ideal spot for the array sits > about 1000’ away from the tanks and it’s the typical scenario of > switching over an existing setup where all the plumbing lines have > been buried for many years so there is no opportunity to bury a > conduit or cable for the float switch conductors. I’m aware of the > reverse action pressure switch strategy but do not want to pressure > the fill lines for multiple reasons. Also, the existing float switch > wires do not run all the way to the well head either even if I did > want to rework those and invert the logic with another relay > elsewhere. For obvious reasons I can’t reassign the old power > conductors to the pump either since I need to keep those in place to > use with the IO101 as backup. > > I’ve installed many dozens of these systems over the years and have > always found a way around it but this job really begs for some sort of > wireless solution. I’ve been off the Wrenches list for 10 years now so > there are many threads I’ve not seen and figured maybe the group has > come up with a solution strategy for these scenarios by now? Obviously > the age of Wifi, Bluetooth etc has brought us many wireless solutions > that did not exist years ago so I’m hopeful we now have an answer to > these headaches? Even if I needed to add a small battery system to > power it. > > Also just want to say how much I appreciate this list. I rejoined a > few weeks ago after 10 years off of it and it is so great to see all > the familiar technicians here. Thank you to Michael and all of you, > new and old, for being part of the good fight to strive for quality > and integrity in this passion we all share. The planet needs us more > than ever and I feel fortunate for every one of you. This list is an > incredible resource! > > Hope all of you have a great last few hours of 2020 and a prosperous > 2021! > > Nick A Lucchese > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sat Jan 2 04:13:38 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 01:13:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery switch 1, 2 or both for 65VDC In-Reply-To: <1f926b1d59890f272d6701252caa4d7b@127.0.0.1> References: <1f926b1d59890f272d6701252caa4d7b@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <546f578f-3d2b-0501-1da1-0c9b782f68de@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Dave, I doubt you'll find anything in the normal marine rotary selector switch configuration for above 50VDC.  How many Amps you need?  You could work up your own relay system using these perhaps: https://www.imopc.com/products/61700000 But actually 2 of the standard 125VDC Inverter 175/250 A discos in an enclosure is actually pretty straightforward and readily available.  I'd stick with that- You could use either a Midnite Solar Mini-DC-X2 box https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=325&productCatName=Mini%20%20DC%20Disconnect&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=13&act=p (not cheap) or perhaps Outback Flexware DC switchboxes.  The old Trace DC switchbox also held two 125 vdc 175/250 A breakers. Happy New Year! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > December 31, 2020 at 8:18 AM > > I can't find a Battery switch for 1, 2 or both for 65VDC. In the past > I did this with (2) 125vdc 250adc disco's in a metal box. > > Anyone seen one of these? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sat Jan 2 04:16:31 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2021 01:16:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery switch 1, 2 or both for 65VDC In-Reply-To: <546f578f-3d2b-0501-1da1-0c9b782f68de@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <1f926b1d59890f272d6701252caa4d7b@127.0.0.1> <546f578f-3d2b-0501-1da1-0c9b782f68de@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <32338e71-9811-9fba-909e-ea0a4705e46a@villagepowerdesign.com> Actually this Perko is rated to 60 VDC - will that suffice? https://www.boatid.com/perko/250a-medium-duty-battery-selector-switch-with-afd-and-key-lock-mpn-8504dp.html jc > Jeff Clearwater > January 2, 2021 at 1:13 AM > Hi Dave, > > I doubt you'll find anything in the normal marine rotary selector > switch configuration for above 50VDC.  How many Amps you need?  You > could work up your own relay system using these perhaps: > > https://www.imopc.com/products/61700000 > > But actually 2 of the standard 125VDC Inverter 175/250 A discos in an > enclosure is actually pretty straightforward and readily available.  > I'd stick with that- You could use either a Midnite Solar Mini-DC-X2 > box > https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=325&productCatName=Mini%20%20DC%20Disconnect&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=13&act=p > (not cheap) or perhaps Outback Flexware DC switchboxes.  The old Trace > DC switchbox also held two 125 vdc 175/250 A breakers. > > Happy New Year! > > Jeff > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > December 31, 2020 at 8:18 AM > > I can't find a Battery switch for 1, 2 or both for 65VDC. In the past > I did this with (2) 125vdc 250adc disco's in a metal box. > > Anyone seen one of these? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jan 2 11:44:31 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 2021 08:44:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery switch 1, 2 or both for 65VDC In-Reply-To: <32338e71-9811-9fba-909e-ea0a4705e46a@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <1f926b1d59890f272d6701252caa4d7b@127.0.0.1> <546f578f-3d2b-0501-1da1-0c9b782f68de@villagepowerdesign.com> <32338e71-9811-9fba-909e-ea0a4705e46a@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Well. not according to the subject here This is not a temporary fix. It really needs a 65V or higher to last. The Perko and other Chinese origin are not going to last at 65Vdc. I was hoping that someone made even an on/off switch that was 125Vdc and could take battery current of 250adc. There already is the main disco breaker in the PDP. Thanks! I think I will just add a second 250A disco. The app is too correct a design that had too much battery in (2) strings for the solar or the 140ADC charger to charge. Bad mistake above latitude 38. It was the year for that was it not? Getting rid of the electric water heater did wonders also. Cheers! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 01:16:31 -0800, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Actually this Perko is rated to 60 VDC - will that suffice? https://www.boatid.com/perko/250a-medium-duty-battery-selector-switch-with-afd-and-key-lock-mpn-8504dp.html [3] jc Jeff Clearwater [4] January 2, 2021 at 1:13 AM Hi Dave, I doubt you'll find anything in the normal marine rotary selector switch configuration for above 50VDC. How many Amps you need? You could work up your own relay system using these perhaps: https://www.imopc.com/products/61700000 [5] But actually 2 of the standard 125VDC Inverter 175/250 A discos in an enclosure is actually pretty straightforward and readily available. I'd stick with that- You could use either a Midnite Solar Mini-DC-X2 box https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=325&productCatName=Mini%20%20DC%20Disconnect&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=13&act=p [6] (not cheap) or perhaps Outback Flexware DC switchboxes. The old Trace DC switchbox also held two 125 vdc 175/250 A breakers. Happy New Year! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules "> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar [13] December 31, 2020 at 8:18 AM I can't find a Battery switch for 1, 2 or both for 65VDC. In the past I did this with (2) 125vdc 250adc disco's in a metal box. Anyone seen one of these? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [14] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [15] text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.boatid.com/perko/250a-medium-duty-battery-selector-switch-with-afd-and-key-lock-mpn-8504dp.html [4] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [5] https://www.imopc.com/products/61700000 [6] https://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=325&productCatName=Mini%20%20DC%20Disconnect&productCat_ID=8&sortOrder=13&act=p [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [14] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [15] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Wondering if anyone has had any luck getting warranty replacement on the Ben Q micro inverters as it looks like they are no longer in the micro inverter biz. -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 C: 707-273-7387 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AC UNISON BENQ SOLAR PANELS.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 700981 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Mon Jan 4 15:44:39 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 12:44:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless float switch control In-Reply-To: References: <1C4255AB-9F53-4F81-85B4-A9929409166F@me.com> Message-ID: <86EDB317-AAB5-42FD-9405-AA252016F921@me.com> Thanks a bunch Jeff, I was on Wrenches from 2000-2010 but then when I left the business of my previous employer working for Jon Hill at Sierra Solar Systems I never took the time to rejoin. I thought I had changed my email a couple times but apparently not successfully. Too much time out in the field but never stopped thinking about all of you! Thanks a bunch for letting me know about the RPS solution. After I had posted that inquiry last week I did do a little more searching but definitely seems like a lot of them either have range issues or cost hurdles. Heading back to the site this week to confirm line of site for the RPS solution. Still waiting on a call back from them about pricing. Happy 2021, Nick > On Jan 1, 2021, at 11:39 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Welcome Back Nick! > > Nice to see your name here - Wrenches continues to be a fabulous resource - some of us have been here close to 25 years! > > So check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhUGGjv5WM > > I don't have direct experience with this wireless sensor but it looks solid: https://www.rpssolarpumps.com/ > > A google search reveals some others that look less expensive so take a look. > > Hope that helps, > > Best > >> Nick A Lucchese December 31, 2020 at 10:20 AM >> Greetings Wrenches, >> >> I’ve mostly been trying to get away from pumping systems but decided to take on a small solar direct Grundfos system for a friend’s mother that lives on my road. The well and ideal spot for the array sits about 1000’ away from the tanks and it’s the typical scenario of switching over an existing setup where all the plumbing lines have been buried for many years so there is no opportunity to bury a conduit or cable for the float switch conductors. I’m aware of the reverse action pressure switch strategy but do not want to pressure the fill lines for multiple reasons. Also, the existing float switch wires do not run all the way to the well head either even if I did want to rework those and invert the logic with another relay elsewhere. For obvious reasons I can’t reassign the old power conductors to the pump either since I need to keep those in place to use with the IO101 as backup. >> >> I’ve installed many dozens of these systems over the years and have always found a way around it but this job really begs for some sort of wireless solution. I’ve been off the Wrenches list for 10 years now so there are many threads I’ve not seen and figured maybe the group has come up with a solution strategy for these scenarios by now? Obviously the age of Wifi, Bluetooth etc has brought us many wireless solutions that did not exist years ago so I’m hopeful we now have an answer to these headaches? Even if I needed to add a small battery system to power it. >> >> Also just want to say how much I appreciate this list. I rejoined a few weeks ago after 10 years off of it and it is so great to see all the familiar technicians here. Thank you to Michael and all of you, new and old, for being part of the good fight to strive for quality and integrity in this passion we all share. The planet needs us more than ever and I feel fortunate for every one of you. This list is an incredible resource! >> >> Hope all of you have a great last few hours of 2020 and a prosperous 2021! >> >> Nick A Lucchese >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Jan 4 18:33:03 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 18:33:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Growatt 5k inverter w/ transformer, more China junk? Message-ID: G'Day and Happy New Year's All, Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased a somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an installer. I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt SPF-5000 ES inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The twist to the story is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a single leg and the transformers are required to split the 240vac into two legs of 120. I've never come across an inverter like this. As an off gridder the first thing I think of is the inefficiencies of the additional transformers to do something like this when we have plenty of manufacturers that don't require this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this setup and possible experiences and pitfalls to beware of. PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. Gratefully, Christopher-- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Jan 4 18:49:17 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 15:49:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Growatt 5k inverter w/ transformer, more China junk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The "Contact Us" page on their website gives a contact number in China. And none of the documentation shows a UL listing. I would tell the customer that I can't install it - too risky. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 1/4/2021 3:33 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day and Happy New Year's All, > > Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased a > somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an > installer. I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt > SPF-5000 ES inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The > twist to the story is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a > single leg and the transformers are required to split the 240vac into > two legs of 120. I've never come across an inverter like this. As an > off gridder the first thing I think of is the inefficiencies of the > additional transformers to do something like this when we have plenty > of manufacturers that don't require this. I'd love to hear your > thoughts on this setup and possible experiences and pitfalls to beware of. > > PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. > > Gratefully, > Christopher-- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 18:56:57 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 16:56:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Growatt 5k inverter w/ transformer, more China junk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1E6DBBF3-879D-4300-8591-57701DCAB3FD@gmail.com> I just was looking at them the other day. They do make US versions. I don’t think they are junk, Growatt is one if not the largest inverter company in the world. jay > On Jan 4, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > > G'Day and Happy New Year's All, > > Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased a somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an installer. I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt SPF-5000 ES inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The twist to the story is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a single leg and the transformers are required to split the 240vac into two legs of 120. I've never come across an inverter like this. As an off gridder the first thing I think of is the inefficiencies of the additional transformers to do something like this when we have plenty of manufacturers that don't require this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this setup and possible experiences and pitfalls to beware of. > > PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. > > Gratefully, > Christopher-- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Jan 4 19:43:56 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:43:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Growatt 5k inverter w/ transformer, more China junk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris; Of course as Kent points out, the equipment does not appear to be UL listed, so would not pass inspection. But, I realize there are situations where a UL listing is not required. It appears to me that the Growatt/Huawei setup this person bought is very similar to the architecture of the SolarEdge StorEdge solution. It uses an autotransformer in exactly the same way, to split 240VAC output into a pair of 120VAC legs, but the SE AT is only needed when powering household loads from only the battery bank. In a purely off-grid situation, of course this would be all the time. But autotransformers are certainly more efficient than dual winding transformers, and I think the In/Out voltage ratio would be low if the secondary is simply dual tapped....but that is WAY beyond my pay grade. Perhaps you can glean some efficiency info from the StorEdge documentation, or even better, from one of the power electronics experts here. All in all, though, a great example of how NOT to design an off grid system, as you've likely already informed the potential client! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 4:33 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day and Happy New Year's All, > > Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased a > somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an installer. > I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt SPF-5000 ES > inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The twist to the story > is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a single leg and the > transformers are required to split the 240vac into two legs of 120. I've > never come across an inverter like this. As an off gridder the first thing > I think of is the inefficiencies of the additional transformers to do > something like this when we have plenty of manufacturers that don't require > this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this setup and possible experiences > and pitfalls to beware of. > > PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. > > Gratefully, > Christopher-- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jan 4 19:53:04 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 19:53:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Growatt 5k inverter w/ transformer, more China junk? In-Reply-To: <1E6DBBF3-879D-4300-8591-57701DCAB3FD@gmail.com> References: <1E6DBBF3-879D-4300-8591-57701DCAB3FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: 20 years ago, I thought I had to fix every solar problem that crossed my path.  I've since gone into a 12 step recovery program, and have successfully stayed "solar sober" for the past decade, with only a very occasional relapse.  The Wrenches list has many a recovering "solarholic" among its ranks. Listen to them. You just don't want the responsibility or the call backs.  My customers that I set up with all the right equipment hardly ever have problems, but the few orphaned systems I've inherited, have a couple of problems a year.  Its not just your sanity, its for your customers as well.  If they're just playing around with it/ weekend fun, that's one thing, but if this is Home Sweet Home for multiple fellow Americans, they deserve better. Sounds like a Euro spec (230 vac single phase) inverter that they switched the frequency from 50 Hz to 60 Hz. Even if this is a good brand over seas, its not the right voltage, its not UL listed, and you have no tech support. (What could possibly go wrong?) We get a couple calls a month from folks that got a 'deal on the internet'.  We don't even take them anymore even if its installing good equipment. It's still 1/2 the money, for double the work. And one last thing: folks that are trying to cheap out are on average going to be less likely to appreciate and pay for your expertise. Just curious, who sold this to them? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/4/21 6:56 PM, jay wrote: > I just was looking at them the other day.  They do make US versions. > > I don’t think they are junk, Growatt is one if not the largest > inverter company in the world. > > jay > >> On Jan 4, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Chris Schaefer > > wrote: >> >> G'Day and Happy New Year's All, >> >> Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased >> a somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an >> installer. I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt >> SPF-5000 ES inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The >> twist to the story is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a >> single leg and the transformers are required to split the 240vac into >> two legs of 120. I've never come across an inverter like this. As an >> off gridder the first thing I think of is the inefficiencies of the >> additional transformers to do something like this when we have plenty >> of manufacturers that don't require this. I'd love to hear your >> thoughts on this setup and possible experiences and pitfalls to >> beware of. >> >> PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. >> >> Gratefully, >> Christopher-- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: >> chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 08:38:25 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 09:38:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Growatt 5k inverter w/ transformer, more China junk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Growatt inverters are top quality, they ship a huge amount of inverters. They make US models in split phase. What happened here is the client ordered something he knew nothing about from a vendor that also knew nothing. I run into this all the time. That's what we get the big bucks for. We buy a lot of chinese inverters for different islands. If we want 230V 2 wire to suit the island, that's what we order. In some cases we order 120V, some are 240V split phase, and some are 230V. If it's off-grid, will there be a requirement for UL listing? I would not worry about the quality of the inverter, they are excellent. I would worry about the design. If you are not confident, walk away. You will be expected to make it work or keep trying, and the damage to your reputation if it all fails will be hard to counter. The client is never wrong. On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'Day and Happy New Year's All, > > Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased a > somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an installer. > I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt SPF-5000 ES > inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The twist to the story > is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a single leg and the > transformers are required to split the 240vac into two legs of 120. I've > never come across an inverter like this. As an off gridder the first thing > I think of is the inefficiencies of the additional transformers to do > something like this when we have plenty of manufacturers that don't require > this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this setup and possible experiences > and pitfalls to beware of. > > PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. > > Gratefully, > Christopher-- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 08:56:16 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 08:56:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Growatt 5k inverter w/ transformer, more China junk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I totally get that most off-grid jobs won’t be inspected, however isn’t it still a good idea for components to carry a UL listing in the event of a fire? It seems like an easy thing for a fire investigator/insurance company to pick out, even if it was not the origin of the fire. That’s been a (perhaps self made) deterrent for me over the years. Any thoughts? On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 8:38 AM Chris Mason wrote: > The Growatt inverters are top quality, they ship a huge amount of > inverters. They make US models in split phase. What happened here is the > client ordered something he knew nothing about from a vendor that also > knew nothing. I run into this all the time. That's what we get the big > bucks for. > We buy a lot of chinese inverters for different islands. If we want 230V 2 > wire to suit the island, that's what we order. In some cases we order 120V, > some are 240V split phase, and some are 230V. > If it's off-grid, will there be a requirement for UL listing? I would not > worry about the quality of the inverter, they are excellent. I would worry > about the design. If you are not confident, walk away. You will be expected > to make it work or keep trying, and the damage to your reputation if it all > fails will be hard to counter. The client is never wrong. > > On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> G'Day and Happy New Year's All, >> >> Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased a >> somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an installer. >> I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt SPF-5000 ES >> inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The twist to the story >> is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a single leg and the >> transformers are required to split the 240vac into two legs of 120. I've >> never come across an inverter like this. As an off gridder the first thing >> I think of is the inefficiencies of the additional transformers to do >> something like this when we have plenty of manufacturers that don't require >> this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this setup and possible experiences >> and pitfalls to beware of. >> >> PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. >> >> Gratefully, >> Christopher-- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road >> >> ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jan 5 10:39:41 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 07:39:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Growatt_5k_inverter_w/_transformer=2C_mo?= =?utf-8?q?re_China_junk=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28cb23ea044155db22d5b00f7b1caf67@127.0.0.1> We want to see the certificate of compliance for UL and all the good paperwork for power system electronics, especially offgrid. Most in the Sierra can't get fire insurance so we build even better redundant systems with that in mind. I do not care so much where the equipmens origin is as much as the company behind it. I like it when a company diversifies it's manufacturing to many countries. This plays really well right now in the times of C19 and supply lines being strained. Trying also to keep an open mind about the Chinese government. Weird how certain items have back-logs also these days. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 08:56:16 -0500, Chris Sparadeo wrote: I totally get that most off-grid jobs won't be inspected, however isn't it still a good idea for components to carry a UL listing in the event of a fire? It seems like an easy thing for a fire investigator/insurance company to pick out, even if it was not the origin of the fire. That's been a (perhaps self made) deterrent for me over the years. Any thoughts? On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 8:38 AM Chris Mason wrote: The Growatt inverters are top quality, they ship a huge amount of inverters. They make US models in split phase. What happened here is the client ordered something he knew nothing about from a vendor that also knew nothing. I run into this all the time. That's what we get the big bucks for. We buy a lot of chinese inverters for different islands. If we want 230V 2 wire to suit the island, that's what we order. In some cases we order 120V, some are 240V split phase, and some are 230V. If it's off-grid, will there be a requirement for UL listing? I would not worry about the quality of the inverter, they are excellent. I would worry about the design. If you are not confident, walk away. You will be expected to make it work or keep trying, and the damage to your reputation if it all fails will be hard to counter. The client is never wrong. On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: G'Day and Happy New Year's All, Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased a somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an installer. I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt SPF-5000 ES inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The twist to the story is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a single leg and the transformers are required to split the 240vac into two legs of 120. I've never come across an inverter like this. As an off gridder the first thing I think of is the inefficiencies of the additional transformers to do something like this when we have plenty of manufacturers that don't require this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this setup and possible experiences and pitfalls to beware of. PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. Gratefully, Christopher-- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road [6] ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [7] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [8]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List rules ">Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com [15] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:cometenergysystems at gmail.com [4] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [5] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [6] https://www.google.com/maps/search/5115%0D%0ASouth+Hill+Road?entry=gmail&source=g [7] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [8] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.cometenergysystems.com/ [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 10:50:13 2021 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 15:50:13 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wireless float switch control In-Reply-To: <86EDB317-AAB5-42FD-9405-AA252016F921@me.com> References: <1C4255AB-9F53-4F81-85B4-A9929409166F@me.com> , <86EDB317-AAB5-42FD-9405-AA252016F921@me.com> Message-ID: Welcome back Nick, our wrenches community is by far the last remaining bastion of "open sourced knowledge" .. I feel so much love and appreciation for all of you! (I think LOS communications will do the trick for your application).. Joe Nelson Project Manager C-46/C-10 Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation CSL# 868816 www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com 530-273-4422 (Office) 530-217-8385 (Cell)      ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nick A Lucchese Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 12:44:39 PM To: Jeff Clearwater Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wireless float switch control Thanks a bunch Jeff, I was on Wrenches from 2000-2010 but then when I left the business of my previous employer working for Jon Hill at Sierra Solar Systems I never took the time to rejoin. I thought I had changed my email a couple times but apparently not successfully. Too much time out in the field but never stopped thinking about all of you! Thanks a bunch for letting me know about the RPS solution. After I had posted that inquiry last week I did do a little more searching but definitely seems like a lot of them either have range issues or cost hurdles. Heading back to the site this week to confirm line of site for the RPS solution. Still waiting on a call back from them about pricing. Happy 2021, Nick On Jan 1, 2021, at 11:39 AM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: Welcome Back Nick! Nice to see your name here - Wrenches continues to be a fabulous resource - some of us have been here close to 25 years! So check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhUGGjv5WM I don't have direct experience with this wireless sensor but it looks solid: https://www.rpssolarpumps.com/ A google search reveals some others that look less expensive so take a look. Hope that helps, Best Nick A Lucchese December 31, 2020 at 10:20 AM Greetings Wrenches, I’ve mostly been trying to get away from pumping systems but decided to take on a small solar direct Grundfos system for a friend’s mother that lives on my road. The well and ideal spot for the array sits about 1000’ away from the tanks and it’s the typical scenario of switching over an existing setup where all the plumbing lines have been buried for many years so there is no opportunity to bury a conduit or cable for the float switch conductors. I’m aware of the reverse action pressure switch strategy but do not want to pressure the fill lines for multiple reasons. Also, the existing float switch wires do not run all the way to the well head either even if I did want to rework those and invert the logic with another relay elsewhere. For obvious reasons I can’t reassign the old power conductors to the pump either since I need to keep those in place to use with the IO101 as backup. I’ve installed many dozens of these systems over the years and have always found a way around it but this job really begs for some sort of wireless solution. I’ve been off the Wrenches list for 10 years now so there are many threads I’ve not seen and figured maybe the group has come up with a solution strategy for these scenarios by now? Obviously the age of Wifi, Bluetooth etc has brought us many wireless solutions that did not exist years ago so I’m hopeful we now have an answer to these headaches? Even if I needed to add a small battery system to power it. Also just want to say how much I appreciate this list. I rejoined a few weeks ago after 10 years off of it and it is so great to see all the familiar technicians here. Thank you to Michael and all of you, new and old, for being part of the good fight to strive for quality and integrity in this passion we all share. The planet needs us more than ever and I feel fortunate for every one of you. This list is an incredible resource! Hope all of you have a great last few hours of 2020 and a prosperous 2021! Nick A Lucchese _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue Jan 5 14:52:32 2021 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 19:52:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programmable battery chargers Message-ID: <176d41bacd4.10729ea1e915451.2116529102121739044@greenwired.com> Hello Wrenches,       I have been looking for some programmable battery chargers probably around 50 amps that I can set a specific voltage, I have been using IOTA in the past but its only a fixed voltage and some of the batteries I have been selling require higher charge setpoints. I am mainly using these on 12v systems any thing higher I have just been using inverter/chargers like Magnum or Schneider. Just seeing what other people have been using out there.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue Jan 5 14:59:30 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 13:59:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] looking for a glass-on-glass, frameless module; bifacial preferred but not essential Message-ID: <000b01d6e39d$47e726b0$d7b57410$@solarcentex.com> Good day, wrenches: Seeking any insight on a module that fits my needs. We used to use Sunpreme glass on glass frameless but they went under with little fanfare (and after winning a significant manufacturing award kind of like Solyndra but smaller.). We use there on our solar pergolas. WE have used framed modules but it just looks horrible. Does anybody know of anyone but Lumos is making this product (their LSX is frameless)? Lumos is beautiful but hard to make work in low-electricity cost Texas. Thanks, Scot Arey, Solar CenTex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Jan 5 15:54:06 2021 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 15:54:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] looking for a glass-on-glass, frameless module; bifacial preferred but not essential In-Reply-To: <000b01d6e39d$47e726b0$d7b57410$@solarcentex.com> References: <000b01d6e39d$47e726b0$d7b57410$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Scot, We have used Prism Solar for glass on glass pergolas. Not sure if the price is any better than Lumos. Im not totally in love with the custom racking option that they pointed us towards though...if you go that route give a shout for what we learned installing it... AK Www.prismsolar.com On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 3:33 PM wrote: > Good day, wrenches: > > > > Seeking any insight on a module that fits my needs. > > > > We used to use Sunpreme glass on glass frameless but they went under with > little fanfare (and after winning a significant manufacturing award kind of > like Solyndra but smaller…). > > > > We use there on our solar pergolas. WE have used framed modules but it > just looks horrible. > > > > Does anybody know of anyone but Lumos is making this product (their LSX is > frameless)? Lumos is beautiful but hard to make work in low-electricity > cost Texas. > > > > Thanks, > > Scot Arey, Solar CenTex > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Jan 5 17:38:14 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2021 15:38:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programmable battery chargers In-Reply-To: <176d41bacd4.10729ea1e915451.2116529102121739044@greenwired.com> References: <176d41bacd4.10729ea1e915451.2116529102121739044@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <28435A72-B859-408B-9790-EC2703E11D85@starlightsolar.com> Andrew, We open the Iota DLS series and adjust the output voltage for our needs. Have done that for many years. The dual voltage jack can then be used for 0.6 Volts switching. We have also used relays and external voltage controllers to automate the DLS voltage switching when the IQ module is insufficient. Also look at the Powermax PM series. They have a voltage adjustment but don’t have the dual voltage that DLS offers. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 5, 2021, at 12:52 PM, Andrew Perkins wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have been looking for some programmable battery chargers probably around 50 amps that I can set a specific voltage, I have been using IOTA in the past but its only a fixed voltage and some of the batteries I have been selling require higher charge setpoints. I am mainly using these on 12v systems any thing higher I have just been using inverter/chargers like Magnum or Schneider. Just seeing what other people have been using out there. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com <1596050015677007_1701277005.png> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Tue Jan 5 18:15:02 2021 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 23:15:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programmable battery chargers In-Reply-To: <28435A72-B859-408B-9790-EC2703E11D85@starlightsolar.com> References: <176d41bacd4.10729ea1e915451.2116529102121739044@greenwired.com> <28435A72-B859-408B-9790-EC2703E11D85@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <176d4d5138b.102979797942320.7374840601125111704@greenwired.com> Yeah we used to be able to open up the IOTAs and do that now they are all riveted shut! I was using Powermax for a long while but they kept failing on us so I went back to iota. I am selling those Rolls S6 series L16s and they need to be charged at a higher voltage but none of the standard presets will go that high. Maybe ill give them another shot. Thanks for the reminder. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com ---- On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 22:38:14 +0000 wrote ---- Andrew, We open the Iota DLS series and adjust the output voltage for our needs. Have done that for many years. The dual voltage jack can then be used for 0.6 Volts switching. We have also used relays and external voltage controllers to automate the DLS voltage switching when the IQ module is insufficient.   Also look at the Powermax PM series. They have a voltage adjustment but don’t have the dual voltage that DLS offers. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 5, 2021, at 12:52 PM, Andrew Perkins wrote: Hello Wrenches,       I have been looking for some programmable battery chargers probably around 50 amps that I can set a specific voltage, I have been using IOTA in the past but its only a fixed voltage and some of the batteries I have been selling require higher charge setpoints. I am mainly using these on 12v systems any thing higher I have just been using inverter/chargers like Magnum or Schneider. Just seeing what other people have been using out there.  Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com/ <1596050015677007_1701277005.png> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From daniel at greenwired.com Wed Jan 6 11:10:25 2021 From: daniel at greenwired.com (Daniel) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 09:10:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG chem resu 10 RMA In-Reply-To: <176d4d5138b.102979797942320.7374840601125111704@greenwired.com> References: <176d41bacd4.10729ea1e915451.2116529102121739044@greenwired.com> <28435A72-B859-408B-9790-EC2703E11D85@starlightsolar.com> <176d4d5138b.102979797942320.7374840601125111704@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <176d876af36.baea8f50310168.5935917080614601785@greenwired.com> Anyone out here have experience with processing a warranty claim with LG chem? Any contacts or tips and tricks would be appreciated. Seems like they are making it very difficult to process a warranty claim or even get tech support to diagnose.Thanks for any advice you can provide.CheersDanielDaniel Tittmann Greenwiredwww.greenwired.comdaniel at greenwired.com707-206-5088  -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 6 11:50:37 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 08:50:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG chem resu 10 RMA In-Reply-To: <176d876af36.baea8f50310168.5935917080614601785@greenwired.com> References: <176d41bacd4.10729ea1e915451.2116529102121739044@greenwired.com> <28435A72-B859-408B-9790-EC2703E11D85@starlightsolar.com> <176d4d5138b.102979797942320.7374840601125111704@greenwired.com> <176d876af36.baea8f50310168.5935917080614601785@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <826b919a0206753b828af2b13457d3c7@127.0.0.1> Not great for my project either but, here you go Daniel! LINH TRAN Director of Sales - Residential ESS 415-715-4673 (c) RESU Resource Page [1] www.lgesspartner.com Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 09:10:25 -0700, Daniel wrote: Anyone out here have experience with processing a warranty claim with LG chem? Any contacts or tips and tricks would be appreciated. Seems like they are making it very difficult to process a warranty claim or even get tech support to diagnose. Thanks for any advice you can provide. Cheers Daniel Daniel Tittmann Greenwired www.greenwired.com [4] daniel at greenwired.com [5] 707-206-5088 Links: ------ [1] https://mailchi.mp/830aaacb3c75/lgchem_ess_northamerica [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://www.greenwired.com [5] mailto:daniel at greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Jan 6 13:59:49 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:59:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Electric XW Pro Message-ID: I just finished a call with Schneider Electric tech support about setting up a multi-inverter XW Pro system. My complaint was (and is) that despite what the manual says, you can't set up a XW Pro slave unit in a multi-inverter system using the system control panel (SCP); that can only be done using the gateway or the configuration tool. And once a XW Pro is set up to be a slave, the only path back to being a master is with the gateway or the configuration tool, or to reset the unit to factory defaults with the SCP. Technician explained that the 20-year old design of the SCP doesn't have enough memory to allow the 120/240 split phase options. However, it does seem to have enough memory for 120 or 240 single phase and 120/208 three phase, ... The reason this is a thorn in my side is that Schneider wants to market this inverter for off grid use and seems to totally ignore what happens when you have an off grid power system failure. If you have a master inverter failure and need to reconfigure the system, it needs to be something that can be corrected easily - in the middle of the night. No ac power, no computer, no phones, no internet. The only option seems to be to reset a slave unit with the SCP and then reprogram it. No longer as enthusiastic about using Schneider for off grid power. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jan 6 14:12:11 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2021 11:12:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Electric XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f6872cd669d06507ab74d92391ba12e@127.0.0.1> Kent, We field tested XWP here for Schneider offgrid a couple years back. We have never had any issues with it for offgrid. Since its inception, the Gateway has been required (stated on website) for major commissioning changes. I have a spare here for my clients. You are welcome to borrow it, but I do not think that is what you want. Just have to live with it. You do not need a gateway at all once the system is configured and it can be done remotely with Insight Cloud. Part number XW Pro 120/240V – 865-6848-21 Note: Please note that Conext™ Gateway is required to commission the XW Pro. Note: XW Pro is not compatible with Conext ComBox. The Conext Gateway is used for the monitoring, commission, and configuration of the XW Pro. Gateway and Combox Compatibility Matrix (PDF) is also available for download. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:59:49 -0800, Kent Osterberg wrote: > I just finished a call with Schneider Electric tech support about > setting up a multi-inverter XW Pro system. My complaint was (and is) > that despite what the manual says, you can't set up a XW Pro slave unit > in a multi-inverter system using the system control panel (SCP); that > can only be done using the gateway or the configuration tool. And once a > XW Pro is set up to be a slave, the only path back to being a master is > with the gateway or the configuration tool, or to reset the unit to > factory defaults with the SCP. Technician explained that the 20-year old > design of the SCP doesn't have enough memory to allow the 120/240 split > phase options. However, it does seem to have enough memory for 120 or > 240 single phase and 120/208 three phase, ... > > The reason this is a thorn in my side is that Schneider wants to market > this inverter for off grid use and seems to totally ignore what happens > when you have an off grid power system failure. If you have a master > inverter failure and need to reconfigure the system, it needs to be > something that can be corrected easily - in the middle of the night. No > ac power, no computer, no phones, no internet. The only option seems to > be to reset a slave unit with the SCP and then reprogram it. > > No longer as enthusiastic about using Schneider for off grid power. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: xwp.PNG Type: image/png Size: 152656 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Jan 6 14:11:46 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 13:11:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Electric XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whaaat? Can’t you use Multi Unit Config using the SCP Advanced menu to set additional inverters as Slave? Thank you, Maverick > On Jan 6, 2021, at 1:00 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > > I just finished a call with Schneider Electric tech support about setting up a multi-inverter XW Pro system. My complaint was (and is) that despite what the manual says, you can't set up a XW Pro slave unit in a multi-inverter system using the system control panel (SCP); that can only be done using the gateway or the configuration tool. And once a XW Pro is set up to be a slave, the only path back to being a master is with the gateway or the configuration tool, or to reset the unit to factory defaults with the SCP. Technician explained that the 20-year old design of the SCP doesn't have enough memory to allow the 120/240 split phase options. However, it does seem to have enough memory for 120 or 240 single phase and 120/208 three phase, ... > > The reason this is a thorn in my side is that Schneider wants to market this inverter for off grid use and seems to totally ignore what happens when you have an off grid power system failure. If you have a master inverter failure and need to reconfigure the system, it needs to be something that can be corrected easily - in the middle of the night. No ac power, no computer, no phones, no internet. The only option seems to be to reset a slave unit with the SCP and then reprogram it. > > No longer as enthusiastic about using Schneider for off grid power. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Jan 6 16:25:32 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 15:25:32 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG chem resu 10 RMA In-Reply-To: <826b919a0206753b828af2b13457d3c7@127.0.0.1> References: <176d41bacd4.10729ea1e915451.2116529102121739044@greenwired.com> <28435A72-B859-408B-9790-EC2703E11D85@starlightsolar.com> <176d4d5138b.102979797942320.7374840601125111704@greenwired.com> <176d876af36.baea8f50310168.5935917080614601785@greenwired.com> <826b919a0206753b828af2b13457d3c7@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <036101d6e472$776746b0$6635d410$@solarcentex.com> I have found LG and Linh to be very helpful. She is much more than “director of sales” but really the overall point person for LG Resu. Scot Arey Solar CenTex From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 10:51 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LG chem resu 10 RMA Not great for my project either but, here you go Daniel! Linh Tran Director of Sales – Residential ESS 415-715-4673 (c) RESU Resource Page www.lgesspartner.com Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 06 Jan 2021 09:10:25 -0700, Daniel > wrote: Anyone out here have experience with processing a warranty claim with LG chem? Any contacts or tips and tricks would be appreciated. Seems like they are making it very difficult to process a warranty claim or even get tech support to diagnose. Thanks for any advice you can provide. Cheers Daniel Daniel Tittmann Greenwired www.greenwired.com daniel at greenwired.com 707-206-5088 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jan 6 19:09:04 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 19:09:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Electric XW Pro In-Reply-To: <6f6872cd669d06507ab74d92391ba12e@127.0.0.1> References: <6f6872cd669d06507ab74d92391ba12e@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <8D2E65FF-544E-4705-9E21-791D409A6BBD@swnl.net> Am I the only off grid installer that doesn’t always have cell/internet service. Most of my larger off grid installs, I design them w/2 separate inverters, 2 charge controllers, 2 volt cell batteries, redundancy can save ones butt in the middle of nowhere. Take a look at the Victron product line, Multi Plus or the Quattro inverters & CCs, most of their products can be set using dip switches, computer, or in some cases settings w/ones “smart" phone. As with most things there IS a learning curve but but the do have a lot of videos, white papers & their config tools has demo mode where you can learn the program. > On Jan 6, 2021, at 2:12 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Kent, > > We field tested XWP here for Schneider offgrid a couple years back. We > have never had any issues with it for offgrid. Since its inception, the > Gateway has been required (stated on website) for major commissioning > changes. I have a spare here for my clients. You are welcome to borrow it, > but I do not think that is what you want. > > Just have to live with it. You do not need a gateway at all once the > system is configured and it can be done remotely with Insight Cloud. > > Part number > XW Pro 120/240V – 865-6848-21 > Note: Please note that Conext™ Gateway is required to commission the XW > Pro. > > Note: XW Pro is not compatible with Conext ComBox. The Conext Gateway is > used for the monitoring, commission, and configuration of the XW Pro. > Gateway and Combox Compatibility Matrix (PDF) is also available for > download. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:59:49 -0800, Kent Osterberg > wrote: >> I just finished a call with Schneider Electric tech support about >> setting up a multi-inverter XW Pro system. My complaint was (and is) >> that despite what the manual says, you can't set up a XW Pro slave unit >> in a multi-inverter system using the system control panel (SCP); that >> can only be done using the gateway or the configuration tool. And once a > >> XW Pro is set up to be a slave, the only path back to being a master is >> with the gateway or the configuration tool, or to reset the unit to >> factory defaults with the SCP. Technician explained that the 20-year old > >> design of the SCP doesn't have enough memory to allow the 120/240 split >> phase options. However, it does seem to have enough memory for 120 or >> 240 single phase and 120/208 three phase, ... >> >> The reason this is a thorn in my side is that Schneider wants to market >> this inverter for off grid use and seems to totally ignore what happens >> when you have an off grid power system failure. If you have a master >> inverter failure and need to reconfigure the system, it needs to be >> something that can be corrected easily - in the middle of the night. No >> ac power, no computer, no phones, no internet. The only option seems to >> be to reset a slave unit with the SCP and then reprogram it. >> >> No longer as enthusiastic about using Schneider for off grid power. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Jan 6 19:43:22 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 16:43:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Electric XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3d135262-ad36-6b19-c8e6-02b94b9f0744@coveoregon.com> Not for 120/240 split phase. Kent On 1/6/2021 11:11 AM, Maverick Brown wrote: > Whaaat? Can’t you use Multi Unit Config using the SCP Advanced menu to set additional inverters as Slave? > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > >> On Jan 6, 2021, at 1:00 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: >> >> I just finished a call with Schneider Electric tech support about setting up a multi-inverter XW Pro system. My complaint was (and is) that despite what the manual says, you can't set up a XW Pro slave unit in a multi-inverter system using the system control panel (SCP); that can only be done using the gateway or the configuration tool. And once a XW Pro is set up to be a slave, the only path back to being a master is with the gateway or the configuration tool, or to reset the unit to factory defaults with the SCP. Technician explained that the 20-year old design of the SCP doesn't have enough memory to allow the 120/240 split phase options. However, it does seem to have enough memory for 120 or 240 single phase and 120/208 three phase, ... >> >> The reason this is a thorn in my side is that Schneider wants to market this inverter for off grid use and seems to totally ignore what happens when you have an off grid power system failure. If you have a master inverter failure and need to reconfigure the system, it needs to be something that can be corrected easily - in the middle of the night. No ac power, no computer, no phones, no internet. The only option seems to be to reset a slave unit with the SCP and then reprogram it. >> >> No longer as enthusiastic about using Schneider for off grid power. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 7 08:21:37 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 06:21:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL listing searches Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Has anyone found a good way to do a search that will tell you what products have been listed to a particular UL standard? The free version of Product iQ isn't very useful in this regard as far as I can tell, but I might not be using it correctly. In particular, I'm interested in batteries, BMS & systems listed to UL 1973 & UL 9540 Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jan 7 11:10:44 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 09:10:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programmable battery chargers In-Reply-To: <176d4d5138b.102979797942320.7374840601125111704@greenwired.com> References: <176d41bacd4.10729ea1e915451.2116529102121739044@greenwired.com> <28435A72-B859-408B-9790-EC2703E11D85@starlightsolar.com> <176d4d5138b.102979797942320.7374840601125111704@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <8E995ACA-CA6D-4FED-8027-56FAA852F471@starlightsolar.com> I have never seen a DLS converter with rivets. Screws are used in the sides or top panel. Are you thinking of the DLS-X series? Larry On Jan 5, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Andrew Perkins wrote: Yeah we used to be able to open up the IOTAs and do that now they are all riveted shut! I was using Powermax for a long while but they kept failing on us so I went back to iota. I am selling those Rolls S6 series L16s and they need to be charged at a higher voltage but none of the standard presets will go that high. Maybe ill give them another shot. Thanks for the reminder. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com <1596050015677007_1701277005.png> ---- On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 22:38:14 +0000 wrote ---- Andrew, We open the Iota DLS series and adjust the output voltage for our needs. Have done that for many years. The dual voltage jack can then be used for 0.6 Volts switching. We have also used relays and external voltage controllers to automate the DLS voltage switching when the IQ module is insufficient. Also look at the Powermax PM series. They have a voltage adjustment but don’t have the dual voltage that DLS offers. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 5, 2021, at 12:52 PM, Andrew Perkins > wrote: Hello Wrenches, I have been looking for some programmable battery chargers probably around 50 amps that I can set a specific voltage, I have been using IOTA in the past but its only a fixed voltage and some of the batteries I have been selling require higher charge setpoints. I am mainly using these on 12v systems any thing higher I have just been using inverter/chargers like Magnum or Schneider. Just seeing what other people have been using out there. Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com <1596050015677007_1701277005.png> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 7 12:11:17 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2021 09:11:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] UL listing searches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31fdc20160726af5232c2f7b1ff6ee7c@127.0.0.1> I just go to the website and get the data. I use the same gear all of the time and so it is not a big deal for me. The link and data below is to the Discover AES battery I use. https://discoverbattery.com/products/lithium-batteries/lifepo4-solar-batteries/42-48-6650 CERTIFIED QUALITY Discover(R) manufacturing facilities are fully certified to ISO 9001/14001 and OSHA 18001 standards. CERTIFICATION STANDARDS * IEC 62133 * UL 1973 * UL 2271 * CE * UN 38.3 SHIPPING CLASSIFICATION * UN 3480, Class 9 (Lithium batteries) Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 06:21:37 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello Wrenches, Has anyone found a good way to do a search that will tell you what products have been listed to a particular UL standard? The free version of Product iQ isn't very useful in this regard as far as I can tell, but I might not be using it correctly. In particular, I'm interested in batteries, BMS & systems listed to UL 1973 font-family: 'times new roman', serif;"> Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 7 12:58:33 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2021 09:58:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Electric XW Pro In-Reply-To: <6E9D303E-D09F-4B09-AD5E-A51F7253DA16@swnl.net> References: <6f6872cd669d06507ab74d92391ba12e@127.0.0.1> <8D2E65FF-544E-4705-9E21-791D409A6BBD@swnl.net> <89915d7bd9dea62aa48e0b01e21315af@127.0.0.1> <6E9D303E-D09F-4B09-AD5E-A51F7253DA16@swnl.net> Message-ID: <425b7b69b059111c93432fc2aba3d56a@127.0.0.1> Ok I do get it. thanks Tump ! I have not tried this yet but Kent said at the end of his post " The only option seems to be to reset a slave unit with the SCP and then reprogram it." So one can do the above by removing the xanbus from the dead master and use the SCP to reset to factory or restore defaults on the old slave. There would not be any programming to get power on. Configuration of all the setpoints, AC settings, Inverter settings and Charger settings can be done after you/they sleep in. The defaults are pretty forgiving for a master to buy some time. I do have some clients who could not remove the 4 screws and remove the 2 xanbus connectors and use and use network connector double female to bypass the old master with my guidance. They concern me, but they know it is their choice not to have back-up. XW is super reliable though and there is always AC bypass to the genset. It is really funny to me that there are people still out there offgrid that tell me my back-up is candles and kerosene Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:14:55 -0500, Tump wrote: My point was there are other Manu options we have available to us. I too travel w/ an oval mate, a mate3, the SCP the Gateway, my computer, BUT there are situations that its quite nice to NOT need these things to address changes. On Jan 7, 2021, at 11:26 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Not sure what you mean below Tump. The gateway DOES NOT need any cell or internet to configure/use with XW Pro. Most people who use Gateway think it is a much better system than Combox. Even easier would be the Configuration tool which works with a laptop only into XANBUS. It lacks the graphics. The SCP does work fine with XWP for most all normal settings. Schneider knows about the SCP and also know how ridiculously small it is to read. A replacement with a larger screen is on my feedback to them. A wish that never comes true. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 19:09:04 -0500, Tump wrote: Am I the only off grid installer that doesn't always have cell/internet service. Most of my larger off grid installs, I design them w/2 separate inverters, 2 charge controllers, 2 volt cell batteries, redundancy can save ones butt in the middle of nowhere. Take a look at the Victron product line, Multi Plus or the Quattro inverters & CCs, most of their products can be set using dip switches, computer, or in some cases settings w/ones "smart" phone. As with most things there IS a learning curve but but the do have a lot of videos, white papers border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin-left: 5px; width: 100%;"> On Jan 6, 2021, at 2:12 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Kent, We field tested XWP here for Schneider offgrid a couple years back. We have never had any issues with it for offgrid. Since its inception, the Gateway has been required (stated on website) for major commissioning changes. I have a spare here for my clients. You are welcome to borrow it, but I do not think that is what you want. Just have to live with it. You do not need a gateway at all once the system is configured and it can be done remotely with Insight Cloud. Part number XW Pro 120/240V - 865-6848-21 Note: Please note that Conext(tm) Gateway is required to commission the XW Pro. Note: XW Pro is not compatible with Conext ComBox. The Conext Gateway is used for the monitoring, commission, and configuration of the XW Pro. Gateway and Combox Compatibility Matrix (PDF) is also available for download. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [8] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [9] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 10:59:49 -0800, Kent Osterberg wrote: I just finished a call with Schneider Electric tech support about setting up a multi-inverter XW Pro system. My complaint was (and is) that despite what the manual says, you can't set up a XW Pro slave unit in a multi-inverter system using the system control panel (SCP); that can only be done using the gateway or the configuration tool. And once a XW Pro is set up to be a slave, the only path back to being a master is with the gateway or the configuration tool, or to reset the unit to factory defaults with the SCP. Technician explained that the 20-year old design of the SCP doesn't have enough memory to allow the 120/240 split phase options. However, it does seem to have enough memory for 120 or 240 single phase and 120/208 three phase, ... The reason this is a thorn in my side is that Schneider wants to market this inverter for off grid use and seems to totally ignore what happens when you have an off grid power system failure. If you have a master inverter failure and need to reconfigure the system, it needs to be something that can be corrected easily - in the middle of the night. No ac power, no computer, no phones, no internet. The only option seems to be to reset a slave unit with the SCP and then reprogram it. No longer as enthusiastic about using Schneider for off grid power. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin-left: 5px; width: 100%;">other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin-left: 5px; width: 100%;"> WWW.SWNL.NET [16] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ WWW.SWNL.NET [17] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE "> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:tump at swnl.net [7] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [8] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [10] mailto:kent at coveoregon.com [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ [17] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-surprised.gif Type: image/gif Size: 338 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Sandra.Herrera at se.com Thu Jan 7 14:21:47 2021 From: Sandra.Herrera at se.com (Sandra Herrera) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2021 19:21:47 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Electric XW Pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Kent, Thank you for your feedback. While the SCP is available for basic configuration, the Gateway is the best option to maximize the XW Pro's full features and configuration options. The XW Pro Owner's Manual has been updated with monitoring and configuration information based on the Gateway. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/ML202003_Conext-XW-Pro-NA-Owners-Guide-990-91227A-01.pdf With the Gateway, you and your customer can have full access to monitor and control with great flexibility: * Local connection with no internet required * Via InsightCloud for remote monitoring and support The XW Pro powers Gateway through Xanbus, ensuring it is accessible for configuration even if the AC power has been disconnected. Best Regards, Sandra Herrera -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 11:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Electric XW Pro [External email: Use caution with links and attachments] ________________________________ I just finished a call with Schneider Electric tech support about setting up a multi-inverter XW Pro system. My complaint was (and is) that despite what the manual says, you can't set up a XW Pro slave unit in a multi-inverter system using the system control panel (SCP); that can only be done using the gateway or the configuration tool. And once a XW Pro is set up to be a slave, the only path back to being a master is with the gateway or the configuration tool, or to reset the unit to factory defaults with the SCP. Technician explained that the 20-year old design of the SCP doesn't have enough memory to allow the 120/240 split phase options. However, it does seem to have enough memory for 120 or 240 single phase and 120/208 three phase, ... The reason this is a thorn in my side is that Schneider wants to market this inverter for off grid use and seems to totally ignore what happens when you have an off grid power system failure. If you have a master inverter failure and need to reconfigure the system, it needs to be something that can be corrected easily - in the middle of the night. No ac power, no computer, no phones, no internet. The only option seems to be to reset a slave unit with the SCP and then reprogram it. No longer as enthusiastic about using Schneider for off grid power. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=04%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C24e9b2630af942449b5a08d8b2754302%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637455563995540755%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BkT5WrzXPnWKn%2BHwS%2FUK36oeWQPKFA5gy6RaPb3m5d0%3D&reserved=0 There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C24e9b2630af942449b5a08d8b2754302%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637455563995540755%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=3FgcDoIrA6pbeHg696FrWZ6U%2BfYVF%2B0ZzVY8lM69ges%3D&reserved=0 https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&data=04%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C24e9b2630af942449b5a08d8b2754302%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637455563995540755%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=q6e1AvzaqB9S3sfY62%2FSat5nl0ZOcMu4ZDlrtgZViII%3D&reserved=0 List rules & etiquette: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&data=04%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C24e9b2630af942449b5a08d8b2754302%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637455563995540755%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=ZsC9qXnZhr9KVI9lalh65xuj4sU6AVZIqY%2Biu7QhUNo%3D&reserved=0 Check out or update participant bios: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Csandra.herrera%40se.com%7C24e9b2630af942449b5a08d8b2754302%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C637455563995540755%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=fIzFE%2FIjQ4LzvbUWjeE23Wegl5Qin9gYGd6jcp6idd4%3D&reserved=0 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________ From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jan 8 13:33:56 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:33:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day Message-ID: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was previously to absorb for 2 hours. He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? Thank you, Drake -- From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 8 14:23:08 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 14:23:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Magic PV cell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <993f01c6-7e9f-4267-65f4-948180b1b899@solarray.com> > HI All; > > I'm forwarding this from a friend and client of mine.  I need to check > to see what modules these are, but it looks like we might have a high > resistance cell?  Is this something that may go away once the modules > warm up, or is this an impending failure? > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Magic PV cell > Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 05:29:24 -0700 > > > > > > > > > One cold morning on my way to work I noticed that both panels were > covered in light frost, except for this one cell. > > Isn’t that odd? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fnflljdkndeceoid.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 137165 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Fri Jan 8 14:51:38 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 14:51:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Growatt 5k inverter w/ transformer, more China junk? In-Reply-To: <28cb23ea044155db22d5b00f7b1caf67@127.0.0.1> References: <28cb23ea044155db22d5b00f7b1caf67@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: G'Day All, Just wanted to update you on what has transpired. So the inverter is indeed NOT UL listed. I did look at other inverters on their (GroWatt) website and did find some US models that stated they did carry UL 1741. The internet company was Signature Solar out of TX and after my phone call with them, once they realized that they were talking with an actual installer they have since decided to take back the inverter equipment. The client only has to pay for the shipping. The client did state what they wanted in equipment. To begin with they have two frig's and two freezers on top of the rest of the home's electrical equipment to be powered at the time of a utility outage, yet they only received two 100Ah batteries w/ 80% DoD. Hmm? They consist of two G4LL, 100Ah lithium batteries. Now this ties into a recent wrenches post about where to find UL listings. Apparently the battery that comes in a rack style mounting form has no UL listing. However the cells themselves carry some kind of UL lettering is the best way to describe it. I've attached the document for your reference. So they sold this unsuspecting client two batteries with no cabinet or jumpers to connect them, unlike a Blue Ion or Fortress system. I sent the documentation off to my local AHJ for their opinion but I'm confident they'll tell me to pass on these batteries. I've since provided a quote to install the PV modules they purchased (REC315's) along with a UL listed inverter and battery obviously at a much higher cost. Thanks for all your inputs. Stay safe and healthy, Christopher On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 10:39 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > We want to see the certificate of compliance for UL and all the good > paperwork for power system electronics, especially offgrid. > > Most in the Sierra can't get fire insurance so we build even better > redundant systems with that in mind. I do not care so much where the > equipmens origin is as much as the company behind it. I like it when a > company diversifies it's manufacturing to many countries. > > This plays really well right now in the times of C19 and supply lines > being strained. Trying also to keep an open mind about the Chinese > government. Weird how certain items have back-logs also these days. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 08:56:16 -0500, Chris Sparadeo < > sparadeo.chris at gmail.com> wrote: > > I totally get that most off-grid jobs won't be inspected, however isn't it > still a good idea for components to carry a UL listing in the event of a > fire? It seems like an easy thing for a fire investigator/insurance company > to pick out, even if it was not the origin of the fire. That's been a > (perhaps self made) deterrent for me over the years. Any thoughts? > > On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 8:38 AM Chris Mason > wrote: > >> The Growatt inverters are top quality, they ship a huge amount of >> inverters. They make US models in split phase. What happened here is the >> client ordered something he knew nothing about from a vendor that also >> knew nothing. I run into this all the time. That's what we get the big >> bucks for. >> We buy a lot of chinese inverters for different islands. If we want 230V >> 2 wire to suit the island, that's what we order. In some cases we order >> 120V, some are 240V split phase, and some are 230V. >> If it's off-grid, will there be a requirement for UL listing? I would not >> worry about the quality of the inverter, they are excellent. I would worry >> about the design. If you are not confident, walk away. You will be expected >> to make it work or keep trying, and the damage to your reputation if it all >> fails will be hard to counter. The client is never wrong. >> >> On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 7:33 PM Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >>> G'Day and Happy New Year's All, >>> >>> Just wanted to share this with you all. A potential client purchased a >>> somewhat complete system off the internet and is now seeking an installer. >>> I know, same old story. The package came with two Growatt SPF-5000 ES >>> inverters with two Huawei HW-TX-5000 transformers. The twist to the story >>> is apparently the inverters put out 230vac on a single leg and the >>> transformers are required to split the 240vac into two legs of 120. I've >>> never come across an inverter like this. As an off gridder the first thing >>> I think of is the inefficiencies of the additional transformers to do >>> something like this when we have plenty of manufacturers that don't require >>> this. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this setup and possible experiences >>> and pitfalls to beware of. >>> >>> PS the client is kicking themselves in the butt, lol. >>> >>> Gratefully, >>> Christopher-- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road >>> >>> ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> Solar systems designer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> www.cometsolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: G4LL-ULdoc.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 305086 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: G4LL LiFePOWER4 51.2V100AH Battery Spec.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 799145 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 8 15:10:54 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2021 12:10:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> References: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: You said both, it will go into absorb for an hour only and it will net go into absorb. Which one please? Is there an AGS? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:33:56 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked > flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go > into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was > previously to absorb for 2 hours. > > He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The > inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. > > During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about > 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. > > I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware > problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by > the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? > > Thank you, > > Drake From mick at abrahamsolar.com Fri Jan 8 15:45:36 2021 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:45:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day Message-ID: Happy Friday, Mechanix~ Drake Chamberlin wrote about the Radian inverter that began running a "too short" absorption interval after several years of normal operations. Drake said the possible culprit is inverter firmware per Outback; I wish to add a data point & follow up questions: I sold an Outback SE-830BLU-300AFCI Systemedge Package--which includes Outback batteries & all for quick deployment--to a longtime retail client in the Autumn of 2020. Firmware seems likely to be the latest version on all components since it shipped from OB so recently. The client's internet service to the site was lost along with everything else in a CA wildfire--so I can't look in remotely & I can't physically travel to the site. He has much prior experience with inverter/chargers, off grid living etc. but he's new to the Radian, Mate3s, etc. My off grid client reports his new Radian is shifting to float before the Absorption target voltage is even reached & the shift occurs around 56.1 volts battery voltage on the way up. The battery is cool, not warm. He's been through the menus & couldn't find a likely suspect for this behavior. The FM100 PV controller on the same system is able to push the battery to the absorption target then hang there as would be expected before it shifts to float. That's if the daylight lasts long enough, of course. As with Drake's client, my friend needs to be able to pump the battery to a higher state of charge with his generator than what he's getting. His upscale (but lead acid) Outback BLU batteries we bought in the package seem at risk of harm due to this problem--& I'm sure Drake has similar concerns. I asked the client to reboot the generator AC (breaker off, then back on) to see if he could push the battery closer to the absorb voltage that way but I am still waiting for that answer. Thanks to the clues & cues from Drake, I'll cut & paste this into a trouble ticket with OB. While waiting for that to percolate through the system, here's one more question for the hive mind: * When a Systemedge Package is purchased complete with batteries & all, are the chargers & the FNDC battery monitor already pre-programmed for the battery type & size? Here's hoping, and as always, the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 8 16:16:53 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:16:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: <3DC9A63C-7BBC-44FC-894E-9C7D1E1240D4@gmail.com> References: <3DC9A63C-7BBC-44FC-894E-9C7D1E1240D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Same page with you Jay, as usual... Does the battery system go to absorb with solar still even if it is cloudy? Maybe a bad battery? Tis the season! Can the user go thru the set-points and make sure nothing has changed? Gen sets can do weird surges that can corrupt settings. If he has to leave, shut down the inverter? Is that an option? It is only a week right. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsola e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:39:40 -0700, Jay wrote: > Is it ags start and is it starting on volts or %, or load? > > >> On Jan 8, 2021, at 1:10 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> wrote: >> >> You said both, it will go into absorb for an hour only and it will net >> go >> into absorb. Which one please? >> >> Is there an AGS? >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >>> On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:33:56 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>> wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked >> >>> flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go >>> into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was >>> previously to absorb for 2 hours. >>> >>> He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The >>> inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. >>> >>> During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about >> >>> 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. >>> >>> I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware >>> problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by >>> the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> From steve at surrette.com Fri Jan 8 16:23:46 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:23:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: References: <3DC9A63C-7BBC-44FC-894E-9C7D1E1240D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't know if this will help, but there is a setting under the AGS menus called DC Generator. There is DC Absrob timer and DC Absrob Votlage. It's imperative that this is left alone if you are using an AC source, I find many systems that are doing this the customer or installer freaked out because the DC Genset Voltage is set at the default of 76 volts. Make sure that this setting is back to 76 volts and left alone if you are using an AC Generator. Even if this is set to No and you have the voltage set too low it will mess with your absorb timers. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Become a Certified PV Professional. Register for* *NABCEP CEC 2020* *using promo code* *20RBE* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 1:17 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Same page with you Jay, as usual... > > Does the battery system go to absorb with solar still even if it is > cloudy? Maybe a bad battery? Tis the season! > Can the user go thru the set-points and make sure nothing has changed? Gen > sets can do weird surges that can corrupt settings. > > If he has to leave, shut down the inverter? Is that an option? It is only > a week right. > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsola > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:39:40 -0700, Jay wrote: > > Is it ags start and is it starting on volts or %, or load? > > > > > >> On Jan 8, 2021, at 1:10 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >> wrote: > >> > >> You said both, it will go into absorb for an hour only and it will net > >> go > >> into absorb. Which one please? > >> > >> Is there an AGS? > >> > >> > >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > >> "we go where powerlines don't" > >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > >> text 209 813 0060 > >> > >>> On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:33:56 -0500, > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > >>> wrote: > >>> Hello Wrenches, > >>> > >>> An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has > worked > >> > >>> flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go > >>> into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was > >>> previously to absorb for 2 hours. > >>> > >>> He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The > >>> inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. > >>> > >>> During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to > about > >> > >>> 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. > >>> > >>> I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware > >>> problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by > >>> the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> > >>> Drake > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > >> the other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Jan 8 17:13:21 2021 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 22:13:21 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> References: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hello Drake Have the customer initiate a new bulk cycle from the Mate3. Do this by Pressing the Charger button on the Mate3 Select Bulk Charge then Start Bulk. This will initiate a full Bulk/Absorb Cycle as programmed in the inverter. If the Absorb time is set to 2 hours that is what will happen. By way of explanation the time on the absorb cycle is incremented up from zero when the dc battery voltage is at or below the re-bulk voltage as programmed in the inverter. So if the batteries were at or below re-bulk for 1 hour that is all the time that was incremented back onto the absorb timer. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day Hello Wrenches, An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was previously to absorb for 2 hours. He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? Thank you, Drake -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=a32a3bea-fcb1028c-a3293261-860397a5e393-91fe1ac488a022ac&q=1&e=208544b9-63a8-495d-b470-5abb1026e5e5&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jan 8 15:38:35 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2021 15:38:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: References: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: It will initially go into absorb, but only stay there for 1 hour. He has tried to get it back in absorb by shutting the generator off. He turns the generator back on, and it doesn't trigger an absorb charge. The system will only take a charge from the generator for 1 hour each calendar day. --- On 2021-01-08 15:10, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > You said both, it will go into absorb for an hour only and it will net > go > into absorb. Which one please? > > Is there an AGS? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:33:56 -0500, > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has >> worked > >> flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go >> into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was >> previously to absorb for 2 hours. >> >> He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The >> inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. >> >> During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to >> about > >> 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. >> >> I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware >> problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by >> the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 8 14:54:12 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 11:54:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> References: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake: I would suggest the following course of action: 1. Reboot Mate 2. Reboot inverter 3. Reset all equipment to factory defaults and manually reprogram each item 4. Update Mate Firmware 5. Update Inverter Firmware. We have solved mystery Radian problems with a firmware update. Good luck! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 10:34 AM To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day Hello Wrenches, An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was previously to absorb for 2 hours. He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? Thank you, Drake -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 15:39:40 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:39:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DC9A63C-7BBC-44FC-894E-9C7D1E1240D4@gmail.com> Is it ags start and is it starting on volts or %, or load? > On Jan 8, 2021, at 1:10 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > You said both, it will go into absorb for an hour only and it will net go > into absorb. Which one please? > > Is there an AGS? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:33:56 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked > >> flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go >> into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was >> previously to absorb for 2 hours. >> >> He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The >> inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. >> >> During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about > >> 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. >> >> I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware >> problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by >> the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 8 16:24:19 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:24:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8bd8bf08bd3c7521780c0448f69062b7@mail.gmail.com> Mick: Here’s a thought: If the system has an FNDC, the charging may be programmed to terminate at a specific SOC. I have been told by OB tech support, and I believe this, that using SOC and battery voltage over time and/or charge taper to control charging is like the old adage, “too many cooks.” My understanding is the best parameter for terminating an absorption charge is charge taper, if your system has this option. Taper is the best indication of complete charging. This is typically set at 3% of the 20 hour AH rating. All other charge termination options should be disabled. Too many charge termination “cooks” may be the cause of your problem, Mick and the problem Drake posted I believe just today. I have been meaning to write some thoughts on the very concept of SOC. As I understand it, SOC is a calculated value, using AH in versus AH out and adjusted for charging efficiency. I believe this process has a high probability for inaccuracy because the actual efficiency value is a moving target. It changes with temperature, battery charge state, battery age and probably other factors. This belief is reinforced by the fact all of these SOC measuring systems must have a built in recalibration that typically occurs when some voltage over time condition is met. The default values for this reset to 100% SOC are deliberately too low to ensure calibration actually occurs, but it gives clients an inaccurate impression of when battery charging is fully accomplished. Way too often I have seen clients manually terminate generator charging of a battery bank prematurely because they see the SOC is 100% and yet their generator is still consuming fuel and making noise, something they do not want to occur unless they know it is required. This means batteries do not get the absorption time they need for a long life span. I have contemplated discontinuing installation of FNDC units for this reason. In fact, the only benefit I see to an FNDC unit is to allow battery parameter logging. I tell my client to ignore any number followed by a % sign. I am BCC-ing several clients on this post because I want them to have more background on why I say this. I am interested in what others think about the benefit, or lack thereof, of using derived SOC values. William PS: I would not assume a recently purchased system has the latest firmware. Wm Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mick Abraham *Sent:* Friday, January 8, 2021 12:46 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day Happy Friday, Mechanix~ Drake Chamberlin wrote about the Radian inverter that began running a "too short" absorption interval after several years of normal operations. Drake said the possible culprit is inverter firmware per Outback; I wish to add a data point & follow up questions: I sold an Outback SE-830BLU-300AFCI Systemedge Package--which includes Outback batteries & all for quick deployment--to a longtime retail client in the Autumn of 2020. Firmware seems likely to be the latest version on all components since it shipped from OB so recently. The client's internet service to the site was lost along with everything else in a CA wildfire--so I can't look in remotely & I can't physically travel to the site. He has much prior experience with inverter/chargers, off grid living etc. but he's new to the Radian, Mate3s, etc. My off grid client reports his new Radian is shifting to float before the Absorption target voltage is even reached & the shift occurs around 56.1 volts battery voltage on the way up. The battery is cool, not warm. He's been through the menus & couldn't find a likely suspect for this behavior. The FM100 PV controller on the same system is able to push the battery to the absorption target then hang there as would be expected before it shifts to float. That's if the daylight lasts long enough, of course. As with Drake's client, my friend needs to be able to pump the battery to a higher state of charge with his generator than what he's getting. His upscale (but lead acid) Outback BLU batteries we bought in the package seem at risk of harm due to this problem--& I'm sure Drake has similar concerns. I asked the client to reboot the generator AC (breaker off, then back on) to see if he could push the battery closer to the absorb voltage that way but I am still waiting for that answer. Thanks to the clues & cues from Drake, I'll cut & paste this into a trouble ticket with OB. While waiting for that to percolate through the system, here's one more question for the hive mind: * When a Systemedge Package is purchased complete with batteries & all, are the chargers & the FNDC battery monitor already pre-programmed for the battery type & size? Here's hoping, and as always, the Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 8 18:03:52 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 18:03:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: <8bd8bf08bd3c7521780c0448f69062b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <8bd8bf08bd3c7521780c0448f69062b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <445fdae6-5d27-78c2-d413-477ef7d557e3@solarray.com> I agree with William, SOC is just a calculation, that can change with temperature, age of batteries, and even when the last full charge occurred. We just had trouble with an inherited Sunny Island system that only allows gen start settings based on SOC. The actual battery SOC didn't correspond to the programming after a while, and the dumb thing would shut off due to low voltage, BEFORE starting the generator.  Then being AC coupled, you also have disabled the PV charging source.  Triggering gen start off SOC and having your array AC coupled is a RECIPE for disaster, speaking of Cooks in the Kitchen, William.   Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/8/21 4:24 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Mick: > > Here’s a thought:  If the system has an FNDC, the charging may be > programmed to terminate at a specific SOC.  I have been told by OB > tech support, and I believe this, that using SOC and battery voltage > over time and/or charge taper to control charging is like the old > adage, “too many cooks.” > > My understanding is the best parameter for terminating an absorption > charge is charge taper, if your system has this option.  Taper is the > best indication of complete charging. This is typically set at 3% of > the 20 hour AH rating.  All other charge termination options should be > disabled. > > Too many charge termination “cooks” may be the cause of your problem, > Mick and the problem Drake posted I believe just today. > > I have been meaning to write some thoughts on the very concept of > SOC.  As I understand it, SOC is a calculated value, using AH in > versus AH out and adjusted for charging efficiency.  I believe this > process has a high probability for inaccuracy because the actual > efficiency value is a moving target.  It changes with temperature, > battery charge state, battery age and probably other factors.  This > belief is reinforced by the fact all of these SOC measuring systems > must have a built in recalibration that typically occurs when some > voltage over time condition is met.  The default values for this reset > to 100% SOC are deliberately too low to ensure calibration actually > occurs, but it gives clients an inaccurate impression of when battery > charging is fully accomplished. > > Way too often I have seen clients manually terminate generator > charging of a battery bank prematurely because they see the SOC is > 100% and yet their generator is still consuming fuel and making noise, > something they do not want to occur unless they know it is required.  > This means batteries do not get the absorption time they need for a > long life span. > > I have contemplated discontinuing installation of FNDC units for this > reason.  In fact, the only benefit I see to an FNDC unit is to allow > battery parameter logging.  I tell my client to ignore any number > followed by a % sign.  I am BCC-ing several clients on this post > because I want them to have more background on why I say this. > > I am interested in what others think about the benefit, or lack > thereof, of using derived SOC values. > > William > > PS: I would not assume a recently purchased system has the latest > firmware. > > Wm > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Mick Abraham > *Sent:* Friday, January 8, 2021 12:46 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day > > Happy Friday, Mechanix~ > > Drake Chamberlin wrote about the Radian inverter that began running a > "too short" absorption interval after several years of normal > operations. Drake said the possible culprit is inverter firmware per > Outback; I wish to add a data point & follow up questions: > > I sold an Outback SE-830BLU-300AFCI Systemedge Package--which includes > Outback batteries & all for quick deployment--to a longtime retail > client in the Autumn of 2020. Firmware seems likely to be the latest > version on all components since it shipped from OB so recently. The > client's internet service to the site was lost along with everything > else in a CA wildfire--so I can't look in remotely & I can't > physically travel to the site. He has much prior experience with > inverter/chargers, off grid living etc. but he's new to the Radian, > Mate3s, etc. > > My off grid client reports his new Radian is shifting to float before > the Absorption target voltage is even reached & the shift occurs > around 56.1 volts battery voltage on the way up. The battery is cool, > not warm. He's been through the menus & couldn't find a likely suspect > for this behavior. The FM100 PV controller on the same system is able > to push the battery to the absorption target then hang there as would > be expected before it shifts to float. That's if the daylight lasts > long enough, of course. As with Drake's client, my friend needs to be > able to pump the battery to a higher state of charge with his > generator than what he's getting. His upscale (but lead acid) Outback > BLU batteries we bought in the package seem at risk of harm due to > this problem--& I'm sure Drake has similar concerns. I asked the > client to reboot the generator AC (breaker off, then back on) to see > if he could push the battery closer to the absorb voltage that way but > I am still waiting for that answer. > > Thanks to the clues & cues from Drake, I'll cut & paste this into a > trouble ticket with OB. While waiting for that to percolate through > the system, here's one more question for the hive mind: > > * When a Systemedge Package is purchased complete with batteries & > all, are the chargers & the FNDC battery monitor already > pre-programmed for the battery type & size? Here's hoping, and as > always, the Wrench List is the Bomb! > > Mick Abraham, Proprietor > > www.abrahamsolar.com > > Landline: 970-731-4675 > > Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 > > ᐧ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 19:41:00 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 17:41:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: References: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <7B7DC8DB-6F4F-4B01-97B3-B0DE02AC6976@gmail.com> Lones is correct as usual The newer Mate3 when battery charging with the generator has to have time below rebuik or it won’t work. So your options are to raise the rebulk voltage, this allows more time below the rebulk, which allows for a complete charge. This situation is especially often when someone is trying to keep their batteries at a higher SOC. So again, raise the rebulk voltage, it doesn’t have any impact on offgrid systems. It will fix the problem. jay > On Jan 8, 2021, at 12:54 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Drake: > > I would suggest the following course of action: > > 1. Reboot Mate > 2. Reboot inverter > 3. Reset all equipment to factory defaults and manually reprogram each item > 4. Update Mate Firmware > 5. Update Inverter Firmware. > > We have solved mystery Radian problems with a firmware update. > > Good luck! > > William Miller > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 10:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day > > Hello Wrenches, > > An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked > flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go > into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was > previously to absorb for 2 hours. > > He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The > inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. > > During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about > 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. > > I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware > problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by > the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 8 19:48:00 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 17:48:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: <445fdae6-5d27-78c2-d413-477ef7d557e3@solarray.com> References: <8bd8bf08bd3c7521780c0448f69062b7@mail.gmail.com> <445fdae6-5d27-78c2-d413-477ef7d557e3@solarray.com> Message-ID: <339C41BB-DF94-4F66-8232-845914004024@gmail.com> Yes SOC is a calculation and with proper setup it works perfectly. This includes changes over its lifespan etc. However one issue that I’ve found is if you tie the PV to the SOC it does set up problems and usually creates short cycling, sulfation and premature battery life. The fix is: Go to FLEXnet DC advanced Control It defaults to: Enable charge termination control Y change that to N That way if you are using OB charge controllers tied to the system via the HUB it will not allow the SOC/FLEXnet DC to stop the charge. The CC will operate as to their own internal programing to absorb time, return amps etc. Cheers jay > On Jan 8, 2021, at 4:03 PM, Ray wrote: > > I agree with William, SOC is just a calculation, that can change with temperature, age of batteries, and even when the last full charge occurred. We just had trouble with an inherited Sunny Island system that only allows gen start settings based on SOC. The actual battery SOC didn't correspond to the programming after a while, and the dumb thing would shut off due to low voltage, BEFORE starting the generator. Then being AC coupled, you also have disabled the PV charging source. Triggering gen start off SOC and having your array AC coupled is a RECIPE for disaster, speaking of Cooks in the Kitchen, William. > > Ray Walters > > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 1/8/21 4:24 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Mick: >> >> Here’s a thought: If the system has an FNDC, the charging may be programmed to terminate at a specific SOC. I have been told by OB tech support, and I believe this, that using SOC and battery voltage over time and/or charge taper to control charging is like the old adage, “too many cooks.” >> >> My understanding is the best parameter for terminating an absorption charge is charge taper, if your system has this option. Taper is the best indication of complete charging. This is typically set at 3% of the 20 hour AH rating. All other charge termination options should be disabled. >> >> Too many charge termination “cooks” may be the cause of your problem, Mick and the problem Drake posted I believe just today. >> >> I have been meaning to write some thoughts on the very concept of SOC. As I understand it, SOC is a calculated value, using AH in versus AH out and adjusted for charging efficiency. I believe this process has a high probability for inaccuracy because the actual efficiency value is a moving target. It changes with temperature, battery charge state, battery age and probably other factors. This belief is reinforced by the fact all of these SOC measuring systems must have a built in recalibration that typically occurs when some voltage over time condition is met. The default values for this reset to 100% SOC are deliberately too low to ensure calibration actually occurs, but it gives clients an inaccurate impression of when battery charging is fully accomplished. >> >> Way too often I have seen clients manually terminate generator charging of a battery bank prematurely because they see the SOC is 100% and yet their generator is still consuming fuel and making noise, something they do not want to occur unless they know it is required. This means batteries do not get the absorption time they need for a long life span. >> >> I have contemplated discontinuing installation of FNDC units for this reason. In fact, the only benefit I see to an FNDC unit is to allow battery parameter logging. I tell my client to ignore any number followed by a % sign. I am BCC-ing several clients on this post because I want them to have more background on why I say this. >> >> I am interested in what others think about the benefit, or lack thereof, of using derived SOC values. >> >> William >> >> PS: I would not assume a recently purchased system has the latest firmware. >> >> Wm >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Mick Abraham >> Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 12:46 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day >> >> Happy Friday, Mechanix~ >> >> Drake Chamberlin wrote about the Radian inverter that began running a "too short" absorption interval after several years of normal operations. Drake said the possible culprit is inverter firmware per Outback; I wish to add a data point & follow up questions: >> >> I sold an Outback SE-830BLU-300AFCI Systemedge Package--which includes Outback batteries & all for quick deployment--to a longtime retail client in the Autumn of 2020. Firmware seems likely to be the latest version on all components since it shipped from OB so recently. The client's internet service to the site was lost along with everything else in a CA wildfire--so I can't look in remotely & I can't physically travel to the site. He has much prior experience with inverter/chargers, off grid living etc. but he's new to the Radian, Mate3s, etc. >> >> My off grid client reports his new Radian is shifting to float before the Absorption target voltage is even reached & the shift occurs around 56.1 volts battery voltage on the way up. The battery is cool, not warm. He's been through the menus & couldn't find a likely suspect for this behavior. The FM100 PV controller on the same system is able to push the battery to the absorption target then hang there as would be expected before it shifts to float. That's if the daylight lasts long enough, of course. As with Drake's client, my friend needs to be able to pump the battery to a higher state of charge with his generator than what he's getting. His upscale (but lead acid) Outback BLU batteries we bought in the package seem at risk of harm due to this problem--& I'm sure Drake has similar concerns. I asked the client to reboot the generator AC (breaker off, then back on) to see if he could push the battery closer to the absorb voltage that way but I am still waiting for that answer. >> >> Thanks to the clues & cues from Drake, I'll cut & paste this into a trouble ticket with OB. While waiting for that to percolate through the system, here's one more question for the hive mind: >> >> * When a Systemedge Package is purchased complete with batteries & all, are the chargers & the FNDC battery monitor already pre-programmed for the battery type & size? Here's hoping, and as always, the Wrench List is the Bomb! >> >> Mick Abraham, Proprietor >> www.abrahamsolar.com >> >> Landline: 970-731-4675 >> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 >> ᐧ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Jan 8 23:58:15 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 20:58:15 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: References: <839136a08c4549048c998353f6a5a2ea@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The only thing I would add to William's list of things to do to solve this issue is that there is a proper sequence in shutting down and rebooting the inverter, found in Outback  docs.  There is also firmware for the HUB but not sure if that would help or is necessary in this situation. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/8/2021 11:54 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Drake: > > I would suggest the following course of action: > > 1.Reboot Mate > > 2.Reboot inverter > > 3.Reset all equipment to factory defaults and manually reprogram each item > > 4.Update Mate Firmware > > 5.Update Inverter Firmware. > > We have solved mystery Radian problems with a firmware update. > > Good luck! > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On Behalf Of > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 10:34 AM > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day > > Hello Wrenches, > > An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked > > flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go > > into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was > > previously to absorb for 2 hours. > > He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The > > inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. > > During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about > > 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. > > I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware > > problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by > > the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jan 9 10:02:28 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2021 10:02:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: <3DC9A63C-7BBC-44FC-894E-9C7D1E1240D4@gmail.com> References: <3DC9A63C-7BBC-44FC-894E-9C7D1E1240D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22f6e22c78ec126d321cc47132d2e895@redwoodalliance.org> Jay, The generator is manual start. Drake --- On 2021-01-08 15:39, Jay wrote: > Is it ags start and is it starting on volts or %, or load? > > >> On Jan 8, 2021, at 1:10 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> wrote: >> >> You said both, it will go into absorb for an hour only and it will >> net go >> into absorb. Which one please? >> >> Is there an AGS? >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >>> On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:33:56 -0500, >>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>> wrote: >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has >>> worked >> >>> flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go >>> into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was >>> previously to absorb for 2 hours. >>> >>> He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The >>> inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. >>> >>> During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to >>> about >> >>> 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. >>> >>> I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware >>> problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by >>> the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> Drake >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 12:57:40 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 10:57:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Charges 1 hour per calendar day In-Reply-To: <22f6e22c78ec126d321cc47132d2e895@redwoodalliance.org> References: <3DC9A63C-7BBC-44FC-894E-9C7D1E1240D4@gmail.com> <22f6e22c78ec126d321cc47132d2e895@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <48E66AB1-C913-4FAD-BCED-9B9ADDDE414B@gmail.com> HI Drake, Yes the issue with rebulk setting effects both AGS and manual. Raise it way up and they won’t have any issues with it not charging jay > On Jan 9, 2021, at 8:02 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Jay, > > The generator is manual start. > > Drake > > --- > > > On 2021-01-08 15:39, Jay wrote: >> Is it ags start and is it starting on volts or %, or load? >>> On Jan 8, 2021, at 1:10 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> You said both, it will go into absorb for an hour only and it will net go >>> into absorb. Which one please? >>> Is there an AGS? >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:33:56 -0500, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>>> wrote: >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> An off grid, Radian / Mate 3 system we set up some years back has worked >>>> flawlessly. The client is now reporting that his system will only go >>>> into absorption charge for 1 hour per calendar day. The setting was >>>> previously to absorb for 2 hours. >>>> He has tried shutting off the generator and then restarting. The >>>> inverter will connect, but not go into absorb. >>>> During this cloudy period, he is only able to get the batteries to about >>>> 80 percent before he needs to leave the site for a week or so. >>>> I finally go through to Outback, and they think it is a Firmware >>>> problem. As it is a long drive out, it seems worth while to run it by >>>> the list. Does FW this seem like the issue? >>>> Thank you, >>>> Drake >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jan 9 13:55:09 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2021 10:55:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Magic PV cell In-Reply-To: <993f01c6-7e9f-4267-65f4-948180b1b899@solarray.com> References: <993f01c6-7e9f-4267-65f4-948180b1b899@solarray.com> Message-ID: Wrenches To be sure you will need an IR Camera but yes it does happen one cell is failing and has become an energy consumer instead of a supplier, you will see a discolored cell and to the touch it will be noticeably hotter than the surrounding cells, I have seen this with several manufactures. I attached a pic of a module that was too hot to put your hand on on the failed cell. It may de difficult to get manufacturer assistance without a IV curve test on each module. You also should look at the back sheet as it may be discolored or even burned. Jerry Shafer NABCEP PV Inspector On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 11:23 AM Ray wrote: > HI All; > I'm forwarding this from a friend and client of mine. I need to check to > see what modules these are, but it looks like we might have a high > resistance cell? Is this something that may go away once the modules warm > up, or is this an impending failure? > > Thanks, > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Magic PV cell > Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 05:29:24 -0700 > > > > > > > > One cold morning on my way to work I noticed that both panels were covered > in light frost, except for this one cell. > > Isn’t that odd? > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fnflljdkndeceoid.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 137165 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FLIR0443.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 103685 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jan 10 12:27:46 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 09:27:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall Message-ID: <239fcb52ea262cbd69b5c9ee78219553@127.0.0.1> Hello Wrenches ! The last time I looked the Tesla Powerwall that is current, could not be easily made to work with existing 48v charge controllers? In other words it is AC coupled and can't be easily DC coupled? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sun Jan 10 13:03:27 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:03:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall In-Reply-To: <239fcb52ea262cbd69b5c9ee78219553@127.0.0.1> References: <239fcb52ea262cbd69b5c9ee78219553@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Dave, Yes, your understanding is correct. No access to DC terminals. Definitely not a great off-grid solution and is complicated and clunky at best to integrate a gen. Best, Chris On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 12:57 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hello Wrenches ! > > The last time I looked the Tesla Powerwall that is current, could not be > easily made to work with existing 48v charge controllers? > > In other words it is AC coupled and can't be easily DC coupled? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun Jan 10 13:08:12 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:08:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall Message-ID: The Powerwall 2 is only AC coupleable to a PV system.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Dave Angelini Offgrid SolarDate: Sun, Jan 10, 2021 12:57 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] PowerwallHello Wrenches ! The last time I looked the Tesla Powerwall that is current, could not be easily made to work with existing 48v charge controllers? In other words it is AC coupled and can't be easily DC coupled?   Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jan 13 15:36:10 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2021 13:36:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter Message-ID: <409E6B46-9BD2-4773-BB4D-E60C2E61DB03@gmail.com> Hi all I’ve got someone looking for a 1500-2000 watt 120vac GT inverter Could be micro or sting. Any ideas? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Jan 14 08:22:37 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 13:22:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter In-Reply-To: <409E6B46-9BD2-4773-BB4D-E60C2E61DB03@gmail.com> References: <409E6B46-9BD2-4773-BB4D-E60C2E61DB03@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Suggest micros - minimal DC, less labeling, RSD compliant, simple tie-in. Best regards Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jay Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 3:36:10 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter Hi all I’ve got someone looking for a 1500-2000 watt 120vac GT inverter Could be micro or sting. Any ideas? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Jan 14 09:19:26 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 09:19:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter Message-ID: <3pu5e4fdjmv4i1gn1f5hgm5a.1610633736567@email.lge.com> I dont think micros do only 120 volts though...Maybe a Schneider SW inverter? I recently was called to work on a DIY special that used a 4024 that was wired for 120V, including generator input.I also have a Magnum in my garage that does 120V quite well. I think it is their 2412?-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Lloyd HoffstatterDate: Thu, Jan 14, 2021 8:22 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter Jay, Suggest micros - minimal DC, less labeling, RSD compliant, simple tie-in. Best regards Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jay > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 3:36:10 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter   Hi all I’ve got someone looking for a 1500-2000 watt 120vac GT inverter Could be micro or sting. Any ideas? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 10:28:21 2021 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 07:28:21 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter In-Reply-To: <3pu5e4fdjmv4i1gn1f5hgm5a.1610633736567@email.lge.com> References: <3pu5e4fdjmv4i1gn1f5hgm5a.1610633736567@email.lge.com> Message-ID: The only 120VAC grid tie inverters that I know of are the OutBack FXR series. Brad On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 6:19 AM Glenn Burt wrote: > I dont think micros do only 120 volts though... > > Maybe a Schneider SW inverter? I recently was called to work on a DIY > special that used a 4024 that was wired for 120V, including generator input. > > I also have a Magnum in my garage that does 120V quite well. I think it is > their 2412? > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Lloyd Hoffstatter > *Date: *Thu, Jan 14, 2021 8:22 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter > > Jay, > Suggest micros - minimal DC, less labeling, RSD compliant, simple tie-in. > > Best regards > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jay > <%3Cre-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org>> <%3Cjay.peltz at gmail.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 13, 2021 3:36:10 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > <%3Cre-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter > > Hi all > > I’ve got someone looking for a 1500-2000 watt 120vac GT inverter > > Could be micro or sting. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > <+RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jan 14 09:26:56 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2021 07:26:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter In-Reply-To: <3pu5e4fdjmv4i1gn1f5hgm5a.1610633736567@email.lge.com> References: <3pu5e4fdjmv4i1gn1f5hgm5a.1610633736567@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <226B428B-9A56-427B-A91E-A3E8BF8833DD@gmail.com> Hi Glenn My goal is to get rid of the batteries as per the clients request. And given it’s only a 1200 watt array, micros make a lot of sense. A few folks have recommended the SB1800 but I don’t want to install 15+ old outdated tech. And given the cost I can install new emphase with a transformer for much less. I was just hoping someone knew of a UL 120v micro. Guess there are none left. Thx Jay > On Jan 14, 2021, at 7:19 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > >  > I dont think micros do only 120 volts though... > > Maybe a Schneider SW inverter? I recently was called to work on a DIY special that used a 4024 that was wired for 120V, including generator input. > > I also have a Magnum in my garage that does 120V quite well. I think it is their 2412? > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > From: Lloyd Hoffstatter > Date: Thu, Jan 14, 2021 8:22 AM > To: RE-wrenches; > Cc: > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter > > Jay, > Suggest micros - minimal DC, less labeling, RSD compliant, simple tie-in. > > Best regards > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Get Outlook for iOS > From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jay > > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 3:36:10 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter > > Hi all > > I’ve got someone looking for a 1500-2000 watt 120vac GT inverter > > Could be micro or sting. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks > Jay > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jan 15 08:02:01 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 06:02:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV shade structure Message-ID: <005401d6eb3e$9ead1010$dc073030$@solarwork.com> Hey Now All You Wise Ones! I got a request for a 2nd story flat roof PV - shade structure yesterday. This being snow country we have 100#/sqft snow loading. Has anyone done something in this range? Supplier suggestions? Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Fri Jan 15 08:41:26 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 13:41:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV shade structure In-Reply-To: <005401d6eb3e$9ead1010$dc073030$@solarwork.com> References: <005401d6eb3e$9ead1010$dc073030$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Dana, You may want to see if brooklynsolarworks.com has a solution that will meet the loading... Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dana Orzel Sent: Friday, January 15, 2021 8:02 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV shade structure Hey Now All You Wise Ones! I got a request for a 2nd story flat roof PV - shade structure yesterday. This being snow country we have 100#/sqft snow loading. Has anyone done something in this range? Supplier suggestions? Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 12:40:05 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 10:40:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 120v batteryless gT inverter References: Message-ID: I was made of aware of this from Lloyd. Thanks Lloyd. It does actually appear to have a UL listing. Posting it here in case anyone else is looking for such a unit. jay peltz power > > > You may want to look at Nignbo Dye website (deyeinverter.com ). Loos like a large company making all types ion inverters. They have a 2 module 600W 120V microinverter (SUN600G2-US-127) supposedly has UL and warranty, only finding it available in EBay so far. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atersol at gmail.com Fri Jan 15 18:28:14 2021 From: atersol at gmail.com (Antony Tersol) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 15:28:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Subject: PV shade structure Message-ID: We are just finishing a PV structure on a 2nd floor patio. It is not purpose built for solar, but has engineering available. It uses something called Alumiwood, which is aluminum with a finish that makes it look like painted wood. This project used 4 23' 3x8 beams, doubled, with a steel c-beam insert for each doubled span. It had 7 pairs of 2x6 rafters. The steel beams were heavy but the alumiwood rafters surprisingly light. 3x3 Posts had steel inserts, then sandwiched with 2x6 for visual treatment. We found it from PatioKitsOnline. We worked with Katie. They send engineering which encompasses all their variants, so it was a little bit of guesswork for the assembly. They do have online videos which help to clarify. We added short pieces of ProSolar 1.5" rail to mount the panels. Could do the same with any of the other rail solutions. Could mount direct to the rafters and avoid the extra track - pluses and minuses to each method. You can see them in the picture before modules were mounted. Still figuring out how to waterproof it. We have no snow-load to worry about, but PatioKits considers snow load, as they sell into all areas of the country. > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 06:02:01 -0700 > From: "Dana Orzel" > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV shade structure > Message-ID: <005401d6eb3e$9ead1010$dc073030$@solarwork.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hey Now All You Wise Ones! > > > > I got a request for a 2nd story flat roof PV - shade structure yesterday. > This being snow country we have 100#/sqft snow loading. > > > > Has anyone done something in this range? Supplier suggestions? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2020-12-30 14.53.52-small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 724360 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2021-01-04 14.50.02-small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 598148 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jan 19 16:35:37 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 16:35:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 19 20:48:25 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 18:48:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I have done this with mercury displacement relays: https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. Good luck On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in > SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Jan 20 11:06:11 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2021 11:06:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The mercury displacement relays are very robust. They do have a lead warning. --- On 2021-01-19 20:48, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I have done this with mercury displacement relays: > https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp > > They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. > > Good luck > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 21 13:59:13 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 13:59:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed through on this terminal? The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection with how critical the loads are. I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough? Jason On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I have done this with mercury displacement relays: > > https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp > > > They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. > > Good luck > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in >> SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 14:37:02 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 12:37:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation mode is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other loads that you shed. The various preservation modes can be complex, especially if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your strategy. You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that. Unfortunately, its just one more piece to fail... On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement relay's > coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage can exceed > 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the output > voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed > through on this terminal? > > The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems > overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor > coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good > for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection > with how critical the loads are. > > I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient > enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the > same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a > nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough? > > Jason > > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> I have done this with mercury displacement relays: >> >> https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp >> >> >> They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. >> >> Good luck >> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in >>> SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 21 15:15:47 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 15:15:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, Yes, I considered using a pilot relay - it makes sense to run it on 120V because relays are readily available. I had the exact same concern - more to fail. In this scenario, the inverter/battery room is remote from the house so there is only one load I can switch easily with a contactor, and that's the whole house load. Otherwise, I would definitely consider switching non-critical loads in a low battery situation. It just seems prudent enough to use the integrated Battery Preservation Mode (BPM), even in this AC coupled system. I considered a small DC array to charge the batteries in a heavily depleted situation, but it's a 60kWh battery so I would need a pretty substantial "backup" array I think. It does not seem like a reasonable solution. I would expect BPM to do it's job and keep the batteries from reaching a state that they are not recovered quite easily. Jason On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 2:37 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jason, > > The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation mode > is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other loads > that you shed. The various preservation modes can be complex, especially > if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your strategy. > > You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your > needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that. Unfortunately, its just > one more piece to fail... > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement >> relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage >> can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the >> output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed >> through on this terminal? >> >> The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems >> overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor >> coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good >> for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection >> with how critical the loads are. >> >> I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient >> enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the >> same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a >> nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough? >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> I have done this with mercury displacement relays: >>> >>> https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp >>> >>> >>> They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. >>> >>> Good luck >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in >>>> SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Jan 21 15:36:40 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 15:36:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IF this system has yet to be built I would STRONGLY suggest that AC coupling is NOT considered. IF it is them i would consider HV CC DC coupling. T > On Jan 21, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Hi Mac, > > Yes, I considered using a pilot relay - it makes sense to run it on 120V because relays are readily available. I had the exact same concern - more to fail. > > In this scenario, the inverter/battery room is remote from the house so there is only one load I can switch easily with a contactor, and that's the whole house load. Otherwise, I would definitely consider switching non-critical loads in a low battery situation. > > It just seems prudent enough to use the integrated Battery Preservation Mode (BPM), even in this AC coupled system. I considered a small DC array to charge the batteries in a heavily depleted situation, but it's a 60kWh battery so I would need a pretty substantial "backup" array I think. It does not seem like a reasonable solution. I would expect BPM to do it's job and keep the batteries from reaching a state that they are not recovered quite easily. > > Jason > > > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 2:37 PM Mac Lewis > wrote: > Hi Jason, > > The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation mode is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other loads that you shed. The various preservation modes can be complex, especially if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your strategy. > > You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that. Unfortunately, its just one more piece to fail... > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed through on this terminal? > > The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection with how critical the loads are. > > I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough? > > Jason > > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis > wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I have done this with mercury displacement relays: > https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp > > They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. > > Good luck > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Jan 21 16:04:46 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:04:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Subject: PV shade structure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the info, I'm interested in using it in the Caribbean. On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 7:28 PM Antony Tersol wrote: > We are just finishing a PV structure on a 2nd floor patio. It is not > purpose built for solar, but has engineering available. It uses > something called Alumiwood, which is aluminum with a finish that makes > it look like painted wood. This project used 4 23' 3x8 beams, > doubled, with a steel c-beam insert for each doubled span. It had 7 > pairs of 2x6 rafters. The steel beams were heavy but the alumiwood > rafters surprisingly light. 3x3 Posts had steel inserts, then > sandwiched with 2x6 for visual treatment. > > We found it from PatioKitsOnline. We worked with Katie. They send > engineering which encompasses all their variants, so it was a little > bit of guesswork for the assembly. They do have online videos which > help to clarify. > > We added short pieces of ProSolar 1.5" rail to mount the panels. > Could do the same with any of the other rail solutions. Could mount > direct to the rafters and avoid the extra track - pluses and minuses > to each method. You can see them in the picture before modules were > mounted. > > Still figuring out how to waterproof it. > > We have no snow-load to worry about, but PatioKits considers snow > load, as they sell into all areas of the country. > > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2021 06:02:01 -0700 > > From: "Dana Orzel" > > To: "'RE-wrenches'" > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV shade structure > > Message-ID: <005401d6eb3e$9ead1010$dc073030$@solarwork.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Hey Now All You Wise Ones! > > > > > > > > I got a request for a 2nd story flat roof PV - shade structure yesterday. > > This being snow country we have 100#/sqft snow loading. > > > > > > > > Has anyone done something in this range? Supplier suggestions? > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com > > > > > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 21 16:05:44 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:05:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's already built - 6 years old - I didn't do it. The new property owner just purchased a very expensive battery bank and wants to protect it, understandably, because she had problems with her generator not starting as expected when not at the property. It was suggested by the original installer to install a load shedding contactor as the manual suggests (albeit in an opaque manner). I just can't seem to wrap my head around why this is a good idea. The integrated battery protection mode should handle this function. A contactor (or series of relays and a contactor) carries too much risk of failure that could result in another problem for the owner altogether. I understand protecting the battery, but the cure can't be worse than the disease. I'm looking for a balanced approach, which I believe is to just implement the BPM unless I'm missing some deficiency in that strategy. The system worked great in an AC coupled configuration until the generator started becoming unreliable. In Florida I like AC coupling in a scenario like this where the most challenging load is in the summer, essentially concurrent with peak sunlight (air conditioning). However, I have been looking at trying out a Sol-Ark as soon as the opportunity arises with a combination of DC and AC coupling. With no separate charge controller involved, it becomes much less complicated and you get the best of both worlds in theory. Jason On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 3:36 PM Tump wrote: > IF this system has yet to be built I would STRONGLY suggest that AC > coupling is NOT considered. IF it is them i would consider HV CC DC > coupling. > T > > On Jan 21, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Hi Mac, > > Yes, I considered using a pilot relay - it makes sense to run it on 120V > because relays are readily available. I had the exact same concern - more > to fail. > > In this scenario, the inverter/battery room is remote from the house so > there is only one load I can switch easily with a contactor, and that's the > whole house load. Otherwise, I would definitely consider switching > non-critical loads in a low battery situation. > > It just seems prudent enough to use the integrated Battery > Preservation Mode (BPM), even in this AC coupled system. I considered a > small DC array to charge the batteries in a heavily depleted situation, but > it's a 60kWh battery so I would need a pretty substantial "backup" array I > think. It does not seem like a reasonable solution. I would expect BPM to > do it's job and keep the batteries from reaching a state that they are not > recovered quite easily. > > Jason > > > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 2:37 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation >> mode is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other >> loads that you shed. The various preservation modes can be complex, >> especially if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your >> strategy. >> >> You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your >> needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that. Unfortunately, its just >> one more piece to fail... >> >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement >>> relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage >>> can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the >>> output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed >>> through on this terminal? >>> >>> The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems >>> overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor >>> coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good >>> for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection >>> with how critical the loads are. >>> >>> I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't >>> sufficient enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does >>> effectively the same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the >>> load and that is a nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't >>> BPM enough? >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Jason, >>>> >>>> I have done this with mercury displacement relays: >>>> >>>> https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp >>>> >>>> >>>> They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. >>>> >>>> Good luck >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described >>>>> in SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jan 21 17:34:16 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 14:34:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033d7113a09ad2d6ce11faab5aa8b6c8@127.0.0.1> Hi Jason, The downside of an all-in one, that may be acceptable for grid, is in a failure an all-in-one becomes unusable unless there is a spare. Even with one it is often a bigger job to deal with. This was my feedback to Schneider when they were looking into this 5 years back. I know they made the right decision for offgrid. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:05:44 -0500, Jason Szumlanski wrote: It's already built - 6 years old - I didn't do it. The new property owner just purchased a very expensive battery bank and wants to protect it, understandably, because she had problems with her generator not starting as expected when not at the property. It was suggested by the original installer to install a load shedding contactor as the manual suggests (albeit in an opaque manner). I just can't seem to wrap my head around why this is a good idea. The integrated battery protection mode should handle this function. A contactor (or series of relays and a contactor) carries too much risk of failure that could result in another problem for the owner altogether. I understand protecting the battery, but the cure can't be worse than the disease. I'm looking for a balanced approach, which I believe is to just implement the BPM unless I'm missing some deficiency in that strategy. The system worked great in an AC coupled configuration until the generator started becoming unreliable. In Florida I like AC coupling in a scenario like this where the most challenging load is in the summer, essentially concurrent with peak sunlight (air conditioning). However, I have been looking at trying out a Sol-Ark as soon as the opportunity arises with a combination of DC and AC coupling. With no separate charge controller involved, it becomes much less complicated and you get the best of both worlds in theory. Jason On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 3:36 PM Tump wrote: IF this system has yet to be built I would STRONGLY suggest that AC coupling is NOT considered. IF it is them i would consider HV CC DC coupling. T On Jan 21, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Hi Mac, Yes, I considered using a pilot relay - it makes sense to run it on 120V because relays are readily available. I had the exact same concern - more to fail. In this scenario, the inverter/battery room is remote from the house so there is only one load I can switch easily with a contactor, and that's the whole house load. Otherwise, I would definitely consider switching non-critical loads in a low battery situation. It just seems prudent enough to use the integrated Battery Preservation Mode (BPM), even in this AC coupled system. I considered a small DC array to charge the batteries in a heavily depleted situation, but it's a 60kWh battery so I would need a pretty substantial "backup" array I think. It does not seem like a reasonable solution. I would expect BPM to do it's job and keep the batteries from reaching a state that they are not recovered quite easily. Jason On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 2:37 PM Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Jason, The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation mode is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other loads that you shed. The various preservation modes can be complex, especially if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your strategy. You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that. Unfortunately, its just one more piece to fail... On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed through on this terminal? The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection with how critical the loads are. I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough? Jason On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Jason, I have done this with mercury displacement relays: https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp [8] They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. Good luck On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? Thanks, Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jan 21 21:34:14 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 21:34:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: <033d7113a09ad2d6ce11faab5aa8b6c8@127.0.0.1> References: <033d7113a09ad2d6ce11faab5aa8b6c8@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: No, I would not use a Sol-Ark unless it was redundant, as in two paralleled for AC output. I agree with you. That's the other advantage of AC Coupling in a dual Sol-Ark configuration. If done right the "extra" AC coupled PV can be usable in the event of a single inverter failure (to an extent). But I don't have enough experience with it to know for sure if this is a viable option. Jason On Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 5:34 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > The downside of an all-in one, that may be acceptable for grid, is in a > failure an all-in-one becomes unusable unless there is a spare. Even with > one it is often a bigger job to deal with. This was my feedback to > Schneider when they were looking into this 5 years back. I know they made > the right decision for offgrid.[image: Wink] > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:05:44 -0500, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > It's already built - 6 years old - I didn't do it. The new property owner > just purchased a very expensive battery bank and wants to protect it, > understandably, because she had problems with her generator not starting as > expected when not at the property. It was suggested by the original > installer to install a load shedding contactor as the manual suggests > (albeit in an opaque manner). I just can't seem to wrap my head around why > this is a good idea. The integrated battery protection mode should handle > this function. A contactor (or series of relays and a contactor) carries > too much risk of failure that could result in another problem for the owner > altogether. I understand protecting the battery, but the cure can't be > worse than the disease. I'm looking for a balanced approach, which I > believe is to just implement the BPM unless I'm missing some deficiency in > that strategy. > > The system worked great in an AC coupled configuration until the generator > started becoming unreliable. In Florida I like AC coupling in a scenario > like this where the most challenging load is in the summer, essentially > concurrent with peak sunlight (air conditioning). However, I have been > looking at trying out a Sol-Ark as soon as the opportunity arises with a > combination of DC and AC coupling. With no separate charge controller > involved, it becomes much less complicated and you get the best of both > worlds in theory. > > Jason > > > > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 3:36 PM Tump wrote: > >> IF this system has yet to be built I would STRONGLY suggest that AC >> coupling is NOT considered. IF it is them i would consider HV CC DC >> coupling. >> T >> >> On Jan 21, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Mac, >> >> Yes, I considered using a pilot relay - it makes sense to run it on 120V >> because relays are readily available. I had the exact same concern - more >> to fail. >> >> In this scenario, the inverter/battery room is remote from the house so >> there is only one load I can switch easily with a contactor, and that's the >> whole house load. Otherwise, I would definitely consider switching >> non-critical loads in a low battery situation. >> >> It just seems prudent enough to use the integrated Battery >> Preservation Mode (BPM), even in this AC coupled system. I considered a >> small DC array to charge the batteries in a heavily depleted situation, but >> it's a 60kWh battery so I would need a pretty substantial "backup" array I >> think. It does not seem like a reasonable solution. I would expect BPM to >> do it's job and keep the batteries from reaching a state that they are not >> recovered quite easily. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 2:37 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation >>> mode is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other >>> loads that you shed. The various preservation modes can be complex, >>> especially if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your >>> strategy. >>> >>> You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your >>> needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that. Unfortunately, its just >>> one more piece to fail... >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement >>>> relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage >>>> can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the >>>> output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed >>>> through on this terminal? >>>> >>>> The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems >>>> overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor >>>> coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good >>>> for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection >>>> with how critical the loads are. >>>> >>>> I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't >>>> sufficient enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does >>>> effectively the same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the >>>> load and that is a nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't >>>> BPM enough? >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jason, >>>>> >>>>> I have done this with mercury displacement relays: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. >>>>> >>>>> Good luck >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described >>>>>> in SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mac Lewis >>>>> >>>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jan 22 15:24:38 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 15:24:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Use series resistors around the coil. --- On 2021-01-21 13:59, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed through on this terminal? > > The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection with how critical the loads are. > > I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough? > > Jason > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I have done this with mercury displacement relays: > https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp [1] > > They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. > > Good luck > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [2] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [3] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] > > -- > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/507c3cd242097f112c86a155d1e20d50857a422b?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdius.com%2Fmercury-relays%2Ftwo-pole-relays-contactors%2Ftwo-pole-100-amp&userId=1613865&signature=1f785f791758ce12 [2] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/17da3db56895ddc360fdc714312bb15c810b3d9c?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c48369ecaf4e553d [3] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/194df01af7007a27cee95e424186cee92dfb90aa?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=b359cf98f4845669 [4] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a90c679cc6b08e0d8f9d077b1a0286cf0ac4450b?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c436e3437bcfefb9 [5] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/6cad44ddc698382911f831e8f1c1dac0a8bcc288?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=4f7688074d106a23 [6] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/46eb9172fba39b9b7cf250fe1773ec71c148de8a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a916ce63ec434074 [7] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/709f6cb68c9bbc03071cb9842f0296828f708159?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=fbe2717c33dde0b9 [8] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f2fb60bbff6e61e6d195e34d56d723dd6f26ad63?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=f68a2f06bcc591b8 [9] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3147a7eacfc37ebda032d9848afdc4f2325e2fd7?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=0be6d941cf767375 [10] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/70fcc571777b9499feea16489030706bbcdc3569?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=3e11754cd74c5658 [11] https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b701fd0e223b4ee024479d318e2335d0e5f7ad0a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=566dc63b61cef07d -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 22 21:20:44 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:20:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover Battery with older XW system Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Has anyone paired the Discover batteries with Xanbus lynk card with an older XW system (not XW+ or XW Pro)? If so, did the Xanbus comm work OK with the Discover batteries? Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jan 23 10:41:05 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 07:41:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Discover Battery with older XW system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mac, I did not have issues but would make sure xw is up to it's last firmware 1.07. I did not do this with the 24 volt XW but I would assume it would be fine as long as it is 1.07 as well. Make sure the SCP is good also with updates. AES will show up as a device on SCP with Soc and time remaining before it needs a charge. Very useful. It would be better if old people could read the SCP display but that is an old problem Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:20:44 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hi Wrenches, Has anyone paired the Discover batteries with Xanbus lynk card with an older XW system (not XW+ or XW Pro)? If so, did the Xanbus comm work OK with the Discover batteries? Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jan 23 08:27:47 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 08:27:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is a potential solution, but if SMA is recommending load shedding contactors, shouldn't they supply a device or kit to implement this? Or at least specify products or at a bare minimum provide better documentation on how and why to implement it. I still don't understand why it's recommended with Battery Protection Mode providing essentially the same function, unless you are trying to shed a subset of loads. Jason On Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 3:24 PM wrote: > Use series resistors around the coil. > --- > > > > On 2021-01-21 13:59, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement relay's > coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage can exceed > 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the output > voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed > through on this terminal? > > The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems > overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor > coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good > for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection > with how critical the loads are. > > I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient > enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the > same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a > nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough? > > Jason > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > I have done this with mercury displacement relays: > > https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp > > > They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay. They seem to work perfectly. > > Good luck > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in > SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island? > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 10:36:43 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 08:36:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar scrim Message-ID: <14DA8F04-F996-45D0-B9BA-FA2B8A425968@gmail.com> HI All, Someone recently recommended solar scrim for back of ground array wire protection. Their website doesn’t say anything about any kind of listing but does it need it? When I emailed them about it, I have gotten no response. Can anyone provide any info as to listing: does it need to be listed? Thanks jay peltz power From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 10:08:43 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 08:08:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla new gt inverter Message-ID: <3F68CD1E-6D01-455C-9F13-6021F548E1DC@gmail.com> Any of the Tesla dealers have any info, costs, features about the new gt inverter? Thx Jay From marco at pvthawaii.com Sat Jan 23 12:03:15 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 07:03:15 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla new gt inverter In-Reply-To: <3F68CD1E-6D01-455C-9F13-6021F548E1DC@gmail.com> References: <3F68CD1E-6D01-455C-9F13-6021F548E1DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, Pricing info has yet to be released. If you are a Tesla Energy dealer, you can ask your rep for a copy of the preliminary spec sheet. marco On Saturday, January 23, 2021, Jay wrote: > Any of the Tesla dealers have any info, costs, features about the new gt > inverter? > > Thx > Jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 12:37:59 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 09:37:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar scrim In-Reply-To: <14DA8F04-F996-45D0-B9BA-FA2B8A425968@gmail.com> References: <14DA8F04-F996-45D0-B9BA-FA2B8A425968@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have, price point seems good, been to wet to install yet. When you ca them they are very receptive to discussing design Jerry On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 9:28 AM jay wrote: > HI All, > > Someone recently recommended solar scrim for back of ground array wire > protection. Their website doesn’t say anything about any kind of listing > but does it need it? > > When I emailed them about it, I have gotten no response. > > Can anyone provide any info as to listing: does it need to be listed? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 13:19:58 2021 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 11:19:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar scrim In-Reply-To: References: <14DA8F04-F996-45D0-B9BA-FA2B8A425968@gmail.com> Message-ID: Does not require listing, though it may be listed as part of racking assembly by manufacturer. If made of metal you are going to run into more questions from AHJ regarding bonding, thus I would recommend plastic. Rebekah On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 10:38 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > I have, price point seems good, been to wet to install yet. When you ca > them they are very receptive to discussing design > Jerry > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 9:28 AM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> Someone recently recommended solar scrim for back of ground array wire >> protection. Their website doesn’t say anything about any kind of listing >> but does it need it? >> >> When I emailed them about it, I have gotten no response. >> >> Can anyone provide any info as to listing: does it need to be listed? >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jan 23 13:25:58 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 10:25:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar scrim In-Reply-To: References: <14DA8F04-F996-45D0-B9BA-FA2B8A425968@gmail.com> Message-ID: Its not metal On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 10:20 AM Rebekah Hren wrote: > Does not require listing, though it may be listed as part of racking > assembly by manufacturer. If made of metal you are going to run into more > questions from AHJ regarding bonding, thus I would recommend plastic. > Rebekah > > > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 10:38 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> I have, price point seems good, been to wet to install yet. When you ca >> them they are very receptive to discussing design >> Jerry >> >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 9:28 AM jay wrote: >> >>> HI All, >>> >>> Someone recently recommended solar scrim for back of ground array wire >>> protection. Their website doesn’t say anything about any kind of listing >>> but does it need it? >>> >>> When I emailed them about it, I have gotten no response. >>> >>> Can anyone provide any info as to listing: does it need to be listed? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Jan 23 13:41:10 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 11:41:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] solar scrim In-Reply-To: <14DA8F04-F996-45D0-B9BA-FA2B8A425968@gmail.com> References: <14DA8F04-F996-45D0-B9BA-FA2B8A425968@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5e2eb6f6-1dfa-3343-eece-3981ea4da49f@sindelarsolar.com> Jay, I used SolarScrim on one project. They were good to work with and the product was well made. But it's a nylon(?) mesh with grommets for mounting to the underside of a rack structure, custom made to fit a specific application, to keep hands from touching the conductors. As it's not an electrical product, there's no way that it could be listed. Allan On 1/23/2021 8:36 AM, jay wrote: > HI All, > > Someone recently recommended solar scrim for back of ground array wire protection. Their website doesn’t say anything about any kind of listing but does it need it? > > When I emailed them about it, I have gotten no response. > > Can anyone provide any info as to listing: does it need to be listed? > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 17:07:32 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 15:07:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small handheld oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI All, Someone just told me about some small inexpensive Oscope. I’m wondering if anyone has any recommendations. I’ve been wanting one, and given the inexpensive price it might be a good option for simple waveform and diagnostics on problematic generators and inverters. Here is one for example. https://www.google.com/shopping/product/1?client=safari&q=kecheer+rechargeable+digital+oscilloscope&prds=epd:16622952485030158500,eto:16622952485030158500_0,pid:16622952485030158500,prmr:1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZre6_qbXuAhUNWs0KHRUaB60Q9pwGCAs thanks jay peltz power -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 19:29:11 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 19:29:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small handheld oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Having never taken any formal training on using oscilloscopes, but knowing that it might be useful to use one for diagnostics, does anyone have a good resource for explaining how to use one for diagnostics of inverters/generators/grid outputs? Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 5:33 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > Someone just told me about some small inexpensive Oscope. > > I’m wondering if anyone has any recommendations. > I’ve been wanting one, and given the inexpensive price it might be a good > option for simple waveform and diagnostics on problematic generators and > inverters. > > Here is one for example. > > > https://www.google.com/shopping/product/1?client=safari&q=kecheer+rechargeable+digital+oscilloscope&prds=epd:16622952485030158500,eto:16622952485030158500_0,pid:16622952485030158500,prmr:1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZre6_qbXuAhUNWs0KHRUaB60Q9pwGCAs > > thanks > > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Jan 24 21:38:58 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2021 21:38:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small handheld oscilloscopes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, I just bought a Kmoon KKM828 for $80.55 on Amazon. Got it in 12 days. Works fine. The last one I bought a few years ago was $170 and I lost it and the one before that was $380 and it died from getting wet. This is a good multimeter with big colorful numbers when trying to read voltages in dark places and has a sharper screen showing the waveform than the last one I had. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 5:33 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > Someone just told me about some small inexpensive Oscope. > > I’m wondering if anyone has any recommendations. > I’ve been wanting one, and given the inexpensive price it might be a good > option for simple waveform and diagnostics on problematic generators and > inverters. > > Here is one for example. > > > https://www.google.com/shopping/product/1?client=safari&q=kecheer+rechargeable+digital+oscilloscope&prds=epd:16622952485030158500,eto:16622952485030158500_0,pid:16622952485030158500,prmr:1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZre6_qbXuAhUNWs0KHRUaB60Q9pwGCAs > > thanks > > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbuckner at solaresystems.com Wed Jan 27 15:12:45 2021 From: dbuckner at solaresystems.com (David Buckner) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 20:12:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - Positive grounded system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Picking up an old thread here. We were able to get this unit going for a while but now it appears down for the count. If anyone knows of a refurbished Xantrex GT100 out there, please let me know! Or any other ideas that may have materialized since summer of 2019 to get a Sunpower AC grounded system repowered. Regards, David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems, LLC 1205 Manhattan Ave., Suite 1210 Brooklyn, NY 11222 Ph: 917-848-0215 www.solaresystems.com [LinkedIn] From: David Buckner Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 4:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - Positive grounded system Circling back on this, it was suggested I check out this company: http://alenconsystems.com/news/alencon-solectria/ Pretty interesting. First we're going to try changing the motherboard and getting the GT100 back up and running, but if that doesn't work maybe we'll give this a try. David From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of David Buckner Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2019 4:05 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Replacing Xantrex GT 100 - AC grounded system Thank you, Jerry. It's 480Vac. On Jun 6, 2019 1:09 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: David We had a very high Hi-Q failure rate and the test h said we three options,1, in advance send in the failed unit. Wait till one is available to release to the RMA, 3, buy extras so we dont need to wait and they had plenty in stock to sell but not to be the RMA. That really was my final straw. You might want to look at segmentating the combiner and going with manageable inverters, what AC side voltage are you running. Jerry On Thu, Jun 6, 2019, 9:15 AM David Buckner > wrote: Thanks Jerry. Yes, there is a single combiner box. I believe it's 49 strings of 11 Sunpower 220's, positive grounded. Regarding Hi-Q, how many failures did you have? Maybe we order some spares to limit downtime when one fails. Are they any better now that they're called Pro Harvest? David On Jun 5, 2019 10:30 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: David We had a real issue with Hi-Q warranty replacements, it took months. Does this GT System have a combiner that you could go with any of the three phase inverters. Just a thought Jerry On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 2:11 PM David Buckner > wrote: Hi all, We are working with a Xantrex GT 100 that appears on it's last legs. Schneider shipped a matrix and we installed it but that didn't work. Now they say we need to install a CCU and new motherboard. I believe I have all this right. If there is a way to replace the whole inverter with a legacy 600Vdc inverter instead, I'd do that. Any ideas on were to get those? Solectria PVI 95 seems like it would work. Otherwise our engineer could look at retrofitting the system with Hi-Q inverters. Any wisdom here would be greatly appreciated! David -- David Buckner President Solar Energy Systems, LLC. 1205 Manhattan Avenue Suite 1210 Brooklyn, NY 11222-1058 ph 917-848-0215 e dbuckner at solaresystems.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 901 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Fri Jan 29 14:09:48 2021 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (sky at ecologicalsystems.biz) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended goal of the requirement. I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. Your thoughts are appreciated, Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz “Just An Old Wrench” From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Fri Jan 29 14:56:08 2021 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 19:56:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> Dear All, I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the reasons folks do.  However, I have come around.  We have witnessed too many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... mostly squirrels.  We have seen everything from residential fires to holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.   I never thought I would see the day when I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. Smiles,  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended goal of the requirement. I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. Your thoughts are appreciated, Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz “Just An Old Wrench” _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri Jan 29 15:17:06 2021 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:17:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sky, I, for one, totally agree. While I agree with the need to keep firefighters safe, it seems to me that rules regarding solar conduit would serve the same purpose; required labeling of rooftop conduit beyond the array boundary, required distance below roof deck for attic conduit, etc. I am sure that there is a fair amount of lobbying by SolarEdge and Enphase to keep the rapid shutdown rules unchanged and retain their market share. While MLPE have their place in the industry, they should not be the only viable choice for a roof mounted array. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 1:25 PM wrote: > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our > industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation > standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement > was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on > the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd > installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do > with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to > premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is > a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > installers less safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended goal > of the requirement. > I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more > sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > “Just An Old Wrench” > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Jan 29 15:58:08 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:58:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> Andrew,             If these are the only two examples of justification of MLSD and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I suggest there is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less expensive, durable solution.  For the squirrel problem, an alternate solution is one of the available edge of array screen products.  Not only does it stop the squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine needles, etc.             Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires that were caused from the lack of MLSD's?  Poor wire management? And was the hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on the wiring?             I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of reasons. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: > Dear All, > > I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the > reasons folks do.  However, I have come around.  We have witnessed too > many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... > mostly squirrels.  We have seen everything from residential fires to > holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.   I never thought I would see > the day when I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but > advocating for it. > > Smiles, > **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** > *President* > **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ > ** > *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors > move**towards an environmentally sustainable future.* > **503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ** > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, > sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out > and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of > the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue > costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less > safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended goal of the > requirement. > I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > more sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > “Just An Old Wrench” > _______________________________________________ > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 29 16:32:30 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sly, The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground mounting and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid shutdown at MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned with. The Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in it, that is useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the extra electronics that can affect reliability. We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a rare defect from causing a wildfire. I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys please? FRIDAY !!! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our > industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation > standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement > was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on > the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd > installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do > with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to > premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is > a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > installers less safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended goal > of the requirement. > I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more > sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > “Just An Old Wrench” > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 29 17:26:49 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:26:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> Message-ID: <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> Yes, I would like more info too.  I'm all about safety, but it needs to be based on reality not theory.  For instance, would string level shut down have stopped the arcs you mentioned?  Also, I second the screening.  Even if MLSD stops the fire, the rodents have still won the day by taking out part of the array.  How about an exemption from MLSD for systems below a certain voltage, and having animal guard in place, and those would still have string level shut down. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/29/21 3:58 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Andrew, > >             If these are the only two examples of justification of > MLSD and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I > suggest there is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less > expensive, durable solution.  For the squirrel problem, an alternate > solution is one of the available edge of array screen products.  Not > only does it stop the squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine > needles, etc. > >             Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires > that were caused from the lack of MLSD's?  Poor wire management? And > was the hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on > the wiring? > >             I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of > reasons. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the >> reasons folks do.  However, I have come around.  We have witnessed >> too many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by >> critters... mostly squirrels.  We have seen everything from >> residential fires to holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.   I >> never thought I would see the day when I would not only be thinking >> MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. >> >> Smiles, >> **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** >> *President* >> **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >> /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ >> ** >> *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors >> move**towards an environmentally sustainable future.* >> **503-238-4502 >> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ** >> >> >> On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, >> sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: >> >> >> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow >> to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and >> installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels >> like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough >> forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going >> out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. >> Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the >> installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure >> of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious >> issue costing the industry time and resources and making our >> installers less safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended >> goal of the requirement. >> I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I >> recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on >> bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. >> >> Your thoughts are appreciated, >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> “Just An Old Wrench” >> _______________________________________________ >> > -- > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jan 29 17:29:12 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:29:12 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ben, Dave had to go on a service call up into the high county. No cell ! I expect him back before dark. Probably will get back in the AM Thanks, Ingrid Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Hi Sly, > > The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground mounting > and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid shutdown at > MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned with. The > Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in it, that is > useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the extra electronics that > can affect reliability. > > We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a > rare defect from causing a wildfire. > > I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys > please? FRIDAY !!! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: >> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our >> industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation >> standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this > requirement >> was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact > on >> the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd >> installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to > do >> with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due > to >> premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This > is >> a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our >> installers less safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended > goal >> of the requirement. >> I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently >> became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > more >> sensible approach to this requirement. >> >> Your thoughts are appreciated, >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> “Just An Old Wrench” >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From william at millersolar.com Fri Jan 29 18:16:14 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:16:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bonding of metal PV guards Message-ID: <2731e0424a9977baddd1d501af5e22b1@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Recently it was posited here that metallic scrims or wire guarding is required to be bonded. This is not technically correct. Section 250.4(A)(4) states bonding is required for …*non–current-carrying electrically* *conductive materials that are likely to become energized…* If it can be demonstrated that the PV wiring is not likely to ever come into contact with non-current carrying conductive parts, then bonding of those parts is not required. This link shows photos of a ground mount system I finished a few days ago. Note in the lower part of this page the superior wire management capabilities of the Snap-N-Rack 200 series channel allows the PV wire to be contained so that there is no likelihood of the conductors ever touching the mesh. Therefore there is no requirement for bonding. Note also that I did elect to bond. This is because of my general approach to do everything possible to provide the most bullet-proof product possible. It is actually quite easy to bond this type of mesh so there is no reason not to. Here is where this concept is more applicable: metal perimeter scrim. Metal scrim around the perimeter of arrays is not nearly as easy to bond. Metal scrim on the circumference of an array is located even further from the PV wiring than any mesh under panels on a ground mount. Therefore for perimeter scrim, the likelihood of PV wires touching the scrim is even more remote. This is an application where opting not to bond may save a lot of unnecessary time and materials. I think it is important that assumptions be checked for accuracy. I do not want industry wide assumptions to get accepted as gospel and require unnecessary work. This is all assuming the obvious that the elements that are in contact with the PV wire are bonded—the module frames and the mounting rail. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Fri Jan 29 17:54:08 2021 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:54:08 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ray, That's a great point it seems like people are really concerned about squirrels and I simply don't understand how adding more components and more potential points of failure helps to address a potential rodent attack, If anything it seems like MLSD just increases the amount of risk of damage from animals. Your suggestion of exempting systems from the MLSD requirement if they implement a rodent guard of some sort seems like a reasonable middle ground that the industry has a lot of experience with already. Sky Sims https://EcologicalSystems.org 732-462-3858 f)732-462-3962 "Just An Old Wrench" On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 5:26 PM Ray wrote: > Yes, I would like more info too. I'm all about safety, but it needs to be > based on reality not theory. For instance, would string level shut down > have stopped the arcs you mentioned? Also, I second the screening. Even > if MLSD stops the fire, the rodents have still won the day by taking out > part of the array. How about an exemption from MLSD for systems below a > certain voltage, and having animal guard in place, and those would still > have string level shut down. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/29/21 3:58 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Andrew, > > If these are the only two examples of justification of MLSD > and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I suggest there > is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less expensive, durable > solution. For the squirrel problem, an alternate solution is one of the > available edge of array screen products. Not only does it stop the > squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine needles, etc. > > Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires that > were caused from the lack of MLSD's? Poor wire management? And was the > hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on the wiring? > > I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of > reasons. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: > > Dear All, > > I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the > reasons folks do. However, I have come around. We have witnessed too many > systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... mostly > squirrels. We have seen everything from residential fires to holes in > metal roofs caused by a DC arc. I never thought I would see the day when > I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. > > Smiles, > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > *President* > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE * > *Since 1987,* > * helping you and your Portland neighbors move** towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > > *503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz > wrote: > > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our > industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation > standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement > was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on > the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd > installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do > with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to > premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is > a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > installers less safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended goal > of the requirement. > I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more > sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > “Just An Old Wrench” > _______________________________________________ > > -- > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_6982181657532053563_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 19:12:09 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:12:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18B813C0-1369-4F06-BD12-AE78E42A3EC2@gmail.com> I agree with the MLPE concept. It is safer, period. There are no high voltage ground faults, series or parallel. Fire danger is significantly reduced from just a single module. The danger to firefighters is almost 0 with MLPE. Probably greater danger slipping on them than shock. But other advantages are as we go faster ( hopefully) with installs they have to be safer for less educated/trained installers. People working on a roof long after it’s been installed. Etc. micros for example are totally plug and play. Sure us grey beards can do it, but this product ( solar) needs to be just like every other appliance. Easy, cheap, reliable and safe to replace/install . The issue/hassle with fixing/replacing MLPE under a flush roof array is an issue with installation design. If it’s designed to repair easily it becomes much faster. For example, installing jumpers so the MLPE are all along the edge for easy accessibility without removing modules. Better integration with how they are physically attached to racking would make this easier. I’m thinking 90 degree brackets vs top bolts. I agree they are too expensive and too many issues with communication, they seem to fail too often and all that. But I’m still an advocate for them. Offgrid is a whole other ballgame. And that lack of reliability becomes a massive problem. But just my opinion Jay > On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:29 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > Dave had to go on a service call up into the high county. No cell ! I > expect him back before dark. Probably will get back in the AM > > Thanks, Ingrid > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > >> On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> wrote: >> Hi Sly, >> >> The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground mounting >> and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid shutdown at >> MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned with. The >> Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in it, that is >> useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the extra electronics > that >> can affect reliability. >> >> We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a >> rare defect from causing a wildfire. >> >> I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys >> please? FRIDAY !!! >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >>> On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: >>> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to >> our >>> industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation >>> standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this >> requirement >>> was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact >> on >>> the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd >>> installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to >> do >>> with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due >> to >>> premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This >> is >>> a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our >>> installers less safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended >> goal >>> of the requirement. >>> I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently >>> became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a >> more >>> sensible approach to this requirement. >>> >>> Your thoughts are appreciated, >>> Sky Sims >>> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >>> “Just An Old Wrench” >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From hiltondier at gmail.com Fri Jan 29 20:10:30 2021 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 20:10:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> There’s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years. In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails. However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there’s always that one loop of wire hanging in the open. I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box. I’m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I’m thinking of squirrels and ice dams. Why can’t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it? Maybe I’m just being naive. Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From ray at solarray.com Fri Jan 29 23:15:21 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 23:15:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> Message-ID: I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single conductor cables to run unprotected? outdoors?  All because the module manus and industry in general has made no effort, zero, to accommodate any type of electrical industry standard K/Os for conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff BTW).   If we hadn't gone this wacky direction, starting about 15 years ago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would be much less reason for MLSD. I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole quick connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each module. Teck 90 Armoured Power & Control Cable 600V CSA FT4 HL ...Llt M10 Bayonet Lock Molding Waterproof Cable 2 Pole ... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/29/21 8:10 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: > There’s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years. > > In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails. > > However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there’s always that one loop of wire hanging in the open. > > I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box. > > I’m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I’m thinking of squirrels and ice dams. > > Why can’t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it? > > Maybe I’m just being naive. > > Hilton > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Connell.Christopher at fronius.com Sat Jan 30 20:47:45 2021 From: Connell.Christopher at fronius.com (Connell Christopher) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 01:47:45 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown (Solar Energy Solutions) Message-ID: <4eba8da258e44e50af96c7c885539838@fronius.com> Hello Andrew, I find your opinion on needing Rapid Shutdown. Critters chewing on wires is the reason why they implemented article 690.11 of the NEC, arc fault detection. What does module level shut down do? Well mostly nothing, especially in energy storage systems. In standard grid-tie systems IF the inverter detects the arc, the inverter will shut down. Most Rapid shutdown solutions are PLC solutions, so the inverter trips off, and then the voltage gets reduced to less than 80v within the array boundary (rapid shutdown activated). 80v is still high enough for a sustainable arc to occur that can melt MC4s. If the same rapid shutdown topology is for an energy storage system, rapid shutdown won't occur (an inverter error keeps RSD active, due to Energy storage). So in reality the rapid shutdown devices doesn't do a thing. Sustainable regards, Chris Connell -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 4:53 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [GREY] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 14, Issue 28 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. MLSD module level shutdown (sky at ecologicalsystems.biz) 2. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Solar Energy Solutions) 3. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Kristopher Schmid) 4. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (frenergy) 5. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) 6. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Ray) 7. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Cc: Melissa Ann MacCarthy Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the requirement. I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. Your thoughts are appreciated, Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz ?Just An Old Wrench? ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 19:56:08 +0000 (UTC) From: Solar Energy Solutions To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" Cc: Melissa Ann MacCarthy Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <536449831.235766.1611950168229 at mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear All, I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed too many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... mostly squirrels.? We have seen everything from residential fires to holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I never thought I would see the day when I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. Smiles, ?Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the requirement. I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. Your thoughts are appreciated, Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz ?Just An Old Wrench? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:17:06 -0600 From: Kristopher Schmid To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Sky, I, for one, totally agree. While I agree with the need to keep firefighters safe, it seems to me that rules regarding solar conduit would serve the same purpose; required labeling of rooftop conduit beyond the array boundary, required distance below roof deck for attic conduit, etc. I am sure that there is a fair amount of lobbying by SolarEdge and Enphase to keep the rapid shutdown rules unchanged and retain their market share. While MLPE have their place in the industry, they should not be the only viable choice for a roof mounted array. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 1:25 PM wrote: > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out > and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of > the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue > costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less > safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the requirement. > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > more sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > ?Just An Old Wrench? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:58:08 -0800 From: frenergy To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271 at psln.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Andrew, ??? ??? ??? If these are the only two examples of justification of MLSD and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I suggest there is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less expensive, durable solution.? For the squirrel problem, an alternate solution is one of the available edge of array screen products.? Not only does it stop the squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine needles, etc. ??? ??? ??? Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires that were caused from the lack of MLSD's?? Poor wire management? And was the hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on the wiring? ??? ??? ??? I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of reasons. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: > Dear All, > > I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the > reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed too > many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... > mostly squirrels.? We have seen everything from residential fires to > holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I never thought I would see > the day when I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but > advocating for it. > > Smiles, > **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** > *President* > **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ > ** > *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors move**towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > **503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ** > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, > sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out > and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of > the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue > costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less > safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the > requirement. > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > more sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > ?Just An Old Wrench? > _______________________________________________ > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800 From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Sly, The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground mounting and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid shutdown at MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned with. The Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in it, that is useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the extra electronics that can affect reliability. We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a rare defect from causing a wildfire. I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys please? FRIDAY !!! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our > industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation > standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement > was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its > impact on > the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with > mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have > nothing to do > with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to > premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. > This is > a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal > of the requirement. > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more > sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > ?Just An Old Wrench? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:26:49 -0500 From: Ray To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347 at solarray.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Yes, I would like more info too.? I'm all about safety, but it needs to be based on reality not theory.? For instance, would string level shut down have stopped the arcs you mentioned?? Also, I second the screening.? Even if MLSD stops the fire, the rodents have still won the day by taking out part of the array.? How about an exemption from MLSD for systems below a certain voltage, and having animal guard in place, and those would still have string level shut down. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/29/21 3:58 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Andrew, > > ??? ??? ??? If these are the only two examples of justification of > MLSD and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I > suggest there is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less > expensive, durable solution.? For the squirrel problem, an alternate > solution is one of the available edge of array screen products.? Not > only does it stop the squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine > needles, etc. > > ??? ??? ??? Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires > that were caused from the lack of MLSD's?? Poor wire management? And > was the hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on > the wiring? > > ??? ??? ??? I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of > reasons. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the >> reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed >> too many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by >> critters... mostly squirrels.? We have seen everything from >> residential fires to holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I >> never thought I would see the day when I would not only be thinking >> MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. >> >> Smiles, >> **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** >> *President* >> **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. >> /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ >> ** >> *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors move**towards >> an environmentally sustainable future.* >> **503-238-4502 >> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ** >> >> >> On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, >> sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: >> >> >> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow >> to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and >> installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels >> like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough >> forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going >> out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. >> Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the >> installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure >> of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious >> issue costing the industry time and resources and making our >> installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended >> goal of the requirement. >> I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I >> recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on >> bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. >> >> Your thoughts are appreciated, >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> ?Just An Old Wrench? >> _______________________________________________ >> > -- > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link> > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:29:12 -0800 From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar To: "RE-wrenches" Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Ben, Dave had to go on a service call up into the high county. No cell ! I expect him back before dark. Probably will get back in the AM Thanks, Ingrid Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Hi Sly, > > The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground > mounting and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid > shutdown at MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned > with. The Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in > it, that is useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the > extra electronics that > can affect reliability. > > We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a > rare defect from causing a wildfire. > > I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys > please? FRIDAY !!! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: >> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow >> to > our >> industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and >> installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels >> like this > requirement >> was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its >> impact > on >> the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with >> mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have >> nothing to > do >> with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all >> due > to >> premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. >> This > is >> a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making >> our installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the >> intended > goal >> of the requirement. >> I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I >> recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on >> bringing a > more >> sensible approach to this requirement. >> >> Your thoughts are appreciated, >> Sky Sims >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz >> ?Just An Old Wrench? >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ------------------------------ End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 14, Issue 28 ******************************************* From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Jan 30 21:13:44 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 21:13:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown (Solar Energy Solutions) In-Reply-To: <4eba8da258e44e50af96c7c885539838@fronius.com> References: <4eba8da258e44e50af96c7c885539838@fronius.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Point taken. However, module level rapid shut down was also implemented for the safety of first responders as well. So regardless of GT or ESS configuration, when the rapid shut down device is initiated, the situation is intrinsically safer for a first responder. I’m not suggesting that there aren’t issues with current 690.12 requirements in regards to actual real life safety, however the RSD is in theory something of value and does do a thing. Kindly, -Chris On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 8:47 PM Connell Christopher < Connell.Christopher at fronius.com> wrote: > Hello Andrew, > > I find your opinion on needing Rapid Shutdown. Critters chewing on wires > is the reason why they implemented article 690.11 of the NEC, arc fault > detection. > > What does module level shut down do? Well mostly nothing, especially in > energy storage systems. In standard grid-tie systems IF the inverter > detects the arc, the inverter will shut down. Most Rapid shutdown solutions > are PLC solutions, so the inverter trips off, and then the voltage gets > reduced to less than 80v within the array boundary (rapid shutdown > activated). 80v is still high enough for a sustainable arc to occur that > can melt MC4s. > > If the same rapid shutdown topology is for an energy storage system, rapid > shutdown won't occur (an inverter error keeps RSD active, due to Energy > storage). So in reality the rapid shutdown devices doesn't do a thing. > > > Sustainable regards, > Chris Connell > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 4:53 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [GREY] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 14, Issue 28 > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. MLSD module level shutdown (sky at ecologicalsystems.biz) > 2. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Solar Energy Solutions) > 3. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Kristopher Schmid) > 4. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (frenergy) > 5. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) > 6. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Ray) > 7. Re: MLSD module level shutdown (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500 > From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Cc: Melissa Ann MacCarthy > Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to our > industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation > standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement > was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on > the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd > installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do > with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to > premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is > a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal > of the requirement. > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more > sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > ?Just An Old Wrench? > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 19:56:08 +0000 (UTC) > From: Solar Energy Solutions > To: "re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org" > > Cc: Melissa Ann MacCarthy > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown > Message-ID: <536449831.235766.1611950168229 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear All, > I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the > reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed too many > systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... mostly > squirrels.? We have seen everything from residential fires to holes in > metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I never thought I would see the day when > I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. > > Smiles, > ?Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. > The BRIGHT CHOICE > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an > environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, > sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation > standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this requirement > was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its impact on > the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with mlsd > installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have nothing to do > with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due to > premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is > a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal > of the requirement. > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a more > sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > ?Just An Old Wrench? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210129/c80252ee/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:17:06 -0600 > From: Kristopher Schmid > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown > Message-ID: > < > CAJB-iS-9CisjjyaLsuiorRBUHMdM4zwNpVS8AFwqvs-ydgOozg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Sky, > > I, for one, totally agree. While I agree with the need to keep > firefighters safe, it seems to me that rules regarding solar conduit would > serve the same purpose; required labeling of rooftop conduit beyond the > array boundary, required distance below roof deck for attic conduit, etc. > I am sure that there is a fair amount of lobbying by SolarEdge and Enphase > to keep the rapid shutdown rules unchanged and retain their market share. > While MLPE have their place in the industry, they should not be the only > viable choice for a roof mounted array. > > > Shine On! > > Kris Schmid > Legacy Solar, LLC > 137 West 1st Avenue > Luck, WI 54853 > www.legacysolar.com > 715-653-4295 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master > Electrician BSEE > > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 1:25 PM wrote: > > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > > installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > > like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > > forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out > > and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > > Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > > installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of > > the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue > > costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less > > safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the > requirement. > > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > > more sensible approach to this requirement. > > > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > > Sky Sims > > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > ?Just An Old Wrench? > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210129/e2d8f2cd/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 12:58:08 -0800 > From: frenergy > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown > Message-ID: <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271 at psln.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > Andrew, > > ??? ??? ??? If these are the only two examples of justification of MLSD > and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I suggest there > is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less expensive, durable > solution.? For the squirrel problem, an alternate solution is one of the > available edge of array screen products.? Not only does it stop the > squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine needles, etc. > > ??? ??? ??? Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires that > were caused from the lack of MLSD's?? Poor wire management? And was the > hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on the wiring? > > ??? ??? ??? I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of > reasons. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the > > reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed too > > many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by critters... > > mostly squirrels.? We have seen everything from residential fires to > > holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I never thought I would see > > the day when I would not only be thinking MLSD is a good idea but > > advocating for it. > > > > Smiles, > > **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** > > *President* > > **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > > /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ > > ** > > *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors move**towards an > > environmentally sustainable future.* > > **503-238-4502 > > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ** > > > > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, > > sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > > > > > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > > installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > > like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > > forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out > > and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > > Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > > installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of > > the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue > > costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less > > safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended goal of the > > requirement. > > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > > more sensible approach to this requirement. > > > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > > Sky Sims > > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > ?Just An Old Wrench? > > _______________________________________________ > > > -- > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210129/dfccba2d/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800 > From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > To: "RE-wrenches" > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi Sly, > > The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground mounting > and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid shutdown at > MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned with. The > Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in it, that is > useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the extra electronics that > can affect reliability. > > We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a > rare defect from causing a wildfire. > > I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys > please? FRIDAY !!! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our > > industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and installation > > standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels like this > requirement > > was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its > > impact > on > > the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with > > mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have > > nothing to > do > > with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all due > to > > premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. > > This > is > > a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > > installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended > goal > > of the requirement. > > I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > more > > sensible approach to this requirement. > > > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > > Sky Sims > > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > > ?Just An Old Wrench? > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:26:49 -0500 > From: Ray > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown > Message-ID: <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347 at solarray.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > Yes, I would like more info too.? I'm all about safety, but it needs to be > based on reality not theory.? For instance, would string level shut down > have stopped the arcs you mentioned?? Also, I second the screening.? Even > if MLSD stops the fire, the rodents have still won the day by taking out > part of the array.? How about an exemption from MLSD for systems below a > certain voltage, and having animal guard in place, and those would still > have string level shut down. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/29/21 3:58 PM, frenergy wrote: > > > > Andrew, > > > > ??? ??? ??? If these are the only two examples of justification of > > MLSD and not knowing the details of the examples you've cited, I > > suggest there is a more effective, equal in labor to apply, less > > expensive, durable solution.? For the squirrel problem, an alternate > > solution is one of the available edge of array screen products.? Not > > only does it stop the squirrels but it works for mice, leaves, pine > > needles, etc. > > > > ??? ??? ??? Can you enlighten us about the cause of the resi fires > > that were caused from the lack of MLSD's?? Poor wire management? And > > was the hole in the metal roof caused by the squirrel having lunch on > > the wiring? > > > > ??? ??? ??? I feel it worth diving into this deeper for a variety of > > reasons. > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > On 1/29/2021 11:56 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: > >> Dear All, > >> > >> I have been an outspoken critic of module level shutdown for all the > >> reasons folks do.? However, I have come around.? We have witnessed > >> too many systems where rooftop wiring has been chewed up by > >> critters... mostly squirrels.? We have seen everything from > >> residential fires to holes in metal roofs caused by a DC arc.?? I > >> never thought I would see the day when I would not only be thinking > >> MLSD is a good idea but advocating for it. > >> > >> Smiles, > >> **Andrew Koyaanisqatsi** > >> *President* > >> **Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > >> /The BRIGHT CHOICE/ > >> ** > >> *Since 1987,**helping you and your Portland neighbors move**towards > >> an environmentally sustainable future.* > >> **503-238-4502 > >> www.SolarEnergyOregon.com ** > >> > >> > >> On Friday, January 29, 2021, 11:25:28 AM PST, > >> sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > >> > >> > >> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow > >> to our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > >> installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > >> like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > >> forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going > >> out and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > >> Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > >> installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure > >> of the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious > >> issue costing the industry time and resources and making our > >> installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the intended > >> goal of the requirement. > >> I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I > >> recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on > >> bringing a more sensible approach to this requirement. > >> > >> Your thoughts are appreciated, > >> Sky Sims > >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > >> ?Just An Old Wrench? > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > > -- > > > > < > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link> > > > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210129/e8f416c9/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:29:12 -0800 > From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > To: "RE-wrenches" > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi Ben, > > Dave had to go on a service call up into the high county. No cell ! I > expect him back before dark. Probably will get back in the AM > > Thanks, Ingrid > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 13:32:30 -0800, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > Hi Sly, > > > > The small part of the industry ( Offgrid ) mostly uses ground > > mounting and is not using MLSD. On some new offgrid homes I use rapid > > shutdown at MPPT level to get the permit if the AHJ can't be reasoned > > with. The Schneider rapid shutdown has a nice 600 vdc disconnect in > > it, that is useful later if the homeowner decides to abandon the > > extra electronics > that > > can affect reliability. > > > > We also protect the area under and near the modules to guard against a > > rare defect from causing a wildfire. > > > > I would like to hear what Outback is doing for this also from you guys > > please? FRIDAY !!! > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:09:48 -0500, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > >> So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow > >> to > > our > >> industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > >> installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > >> like this > > requirement > >> was rolled out far too quickly without enough forethought to its > >> impact > > on > >> the industry. We are constantly going out and fixing problems with > >> mlsd installed by other contractors. Thankfully the problems have > >> nothing to > > do > >> with the quality of the installations. The problems are almost all > >> due > > to > >> premature failure of the products or some inherent defect in them. > >> This > > is > >> a serious issue costing the industry time and resources and making > >> our installers less safe. It just doesn?t really accomplish the > >> intended > > goal > >> of the requirement. > >> I?m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I > >> recently became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on > >> bringing a > > more > >> sensible approach to this requirement. > >> > >> Your thoughts are appreciated, > >> Sky Sims > >> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > >> ?Just An Old Wrench? > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > the > >> other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 14, Issue 28 > ******************************************* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Jan 30 21:09:29 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 21:09:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <914c6886240f63446f9daa5370cf6b2d@redwoodalliance.org> Is MLSD required in Europe or other parts of the world? What is their track record for safety? --- On 2021-01-29 14:09, sky at ecologicalsystems.biz wrote: > So far the module level shutdown requirements have been a real blow to > our industry. The reliability and cost from a maintenance and > installation standpoint has been very hit or miss so far. It feels > like this requirement was rolled out far too quickly without enough > forethought to its impact on the industry. We are constantly going out > and fixing problems with mlsd installed by other contractors. > Thankfully the problems have nothing to do with the quality of the > installations. The problems are almost all due to premature failure of > the products or some inherent defect in them. This is a serious issue > costing the industry time and resources and making our installers less > safe. It just doesn’t really accomplish the intended goal of the > requirement. > I’m curious how other wrenches are dealing with this issue. I recently > became aware of fixMLSD.com which appears to be focused on bringing a > more sensible approach to this requirement. > > Your thoughts are appreciated, > Sky Sims > Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > “Just An Old Wrench” > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jan 31 14:15:14 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:15:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark Message-ID: For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you recommend? I need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with closed-loop communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with Tesla is tough with some of these ugly beasts. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 15:05:19 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:05:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Blue planet has BMS integration with solar is a very stable product with the best warranty Jerry On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 11:25 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you recommend? > I need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with closed-loop > communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important > consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with Tesla > is tough with some of these ugly beasts. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jan 31 14:27:48 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:27:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment Message-ID: I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as problematic? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jan 31 16:06:41 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:06:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: <198901fd-3cc8-d816-e52e-e9f1712f60ad@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <198901fd-3cc8-d816-e52e-e9f1712f60ad@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: I had another battery manufacturer's BMS contactor weld shut due to an inrush current problem with another brand of inverter. That was "fun." It seems strange that this issue of cap loading hasn't been addressed. Hopefully it will be. To clarify the SOC not drifting... Are you saying in an off-grid system you can reliably use the Sol-Ark SOC to trigger generator start and charging parameters without causing discrepancies in SOC on the battery meter itself and balancing is not a problem? If so, I'm comfortable with that I think. Jason On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:45 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Jason, > > I've installed a few systems now using Fortress eVaults. I like them as > they are a nice 18.5 KW increment and the BMS seems hardy - nice interface > screen showing SOC on each battery. > > However, call Fortress and discuss the status of their closed loop > communications (and talk to Sol-Ark about it too). The tech at Fortress > told me that less than 4 eVaults the closed loop communication is more > trouble than it's worth between batteries. That appears to be because they > simply have not employed a soft-start resistor and the batteries shut down > when exposed to cap loading during inverter start-up. They said relying on > the individual battery BMSs works fine. I've found that to be true so far > - no drift in SOC from battery and Sol-Ark. > > Their eFlex system is supposed to be totally closed loop communication > between batts and with a Sol-Ark. It's a bit of a small increment for > large systems but may be worth it. > > I imagine they will offer an upgrade for eVaults or a new model soon with > full closed loop. Sol-Ark tech said they were still working with them on > that. > > Hope that helps! > > Best, > > Jeff > > Jason Szumlanski > January 31, 2021 at 11:27 AM > I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are > mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with > disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery > systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 > requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are > proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick > out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches > deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great > places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as > problematic? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 15:47:45 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:47:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is the list with closed loop from some time ago here on wrenches. Fortress eFlex Blue Planet Blue Ion 2.0 Simpliphi Amplipi Discover AES Storz Power I lean towards Discover as it’s the only OEM produced battery. Sealed like simpliphi so it keeps bugs/critters out Wall mount brackets for clean easy install and keeping within the code for depth. Jay > On Jan 31, 2021, at 12:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you recommend? I need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with closed-loop communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with Tesla is tough with some of these ugly beasts. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sun Jan 31 15:45:34 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:45:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <198901fd-3cc8-d816-e52e-e9f1712f60ad@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Jason, I've installed a few systems now using Fortress eVaults.  I like them as they are a nice 18.5 KW increment and the BMS seems hardy - nice interface screen showing SOC on each battery. However, call Fortress and discuss the status of their closed loop communications (and talk to Sol-Ark about it too).  The tech at Fortress told me that less than 4 eVaults the closed loop communication is more trouble than it's worth between batteries.  That appears to be because they simply have not employed a soft-start resistor and the batteries shut down when exposed to cap loading during inverter start-up.  They said relying on the individual battery BMSs works fine.  I've found that to be true so far - no drift in SOC from battery and Sol-Ark. Their eFlex system is supposed to be totally closed loop communication between batts and with a Sol-Ark.  It's a bit of a small increment for large systems but may be worth it. I imagine they will offer an upgrade for eVaults or a new model soon with full closed loop.  Sol-Ark tech said they were still working with them on that. Hope that helps! Best, Jeff > Jason Szumlanski > January 31, 2021 at 11:27 AM > I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are > mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with > disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery > systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 > requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are > proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls > stick out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more > than 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery > cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but does > anyone else see this as problematic? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 15:50:46 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:50:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are required for the "system" to operate they are necessary. Jerry On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are > mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with > disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery > systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 > requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are > proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick > out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches > deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great > places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as > problematic? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 15:38:36 2021 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:38:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <655128FD-41C6-4DA9-8FC4-A15278AD27F3@gmail.com> I’m using Simpliphi inside an outback battery box, very nice looking package. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Jan 31, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Blue planet has BMS integration with solar is a very stable product with the best warranty > Jerry > >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 11:25 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you recommend? I need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with closed-loop communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with Tesla is tough with some of these ugly beasts. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jan 31 17:55:17 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 17:55:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade with the exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper than the enclosure for which the working space applies. For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it. I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery enclosure below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, but by the book it seems like a violation. Jason On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or > understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in > the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above > blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an > enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries > further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are > required for the "system" to operate they are necessary. > Jerry > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are >> mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with >> disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery >> systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 >> requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are >> proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick >> out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches >> deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great >> places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as >> problematic? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jan 31 15:58:58 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 12:58:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3f8e88dbd4fd8e8e774da341e85c9e99@127.0.0.1> Hi Jason, You were asking for 60KWH of storage, it has to go somewhere and fit. Too me, that is a ridiculous amount of storage and sounds like someone with an all electric kitchen and laundry, 4 ton ac units, +++. The system pix attached can add 20 of these 6.7 KWH useable AES batteries, but much easier to choose the right appliances. I realize that I am assuming here, I do get requests like that so do not take this wrong! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:27:48 -0500, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as problematic? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 433789 bytes Desc: not available URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Sun Jan 31 15:35:56 2021 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 15:35:56 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17cef7eb50f9a8439f83e28f088cacd2.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> We have been using them regularly with Fortress Power EVaults (18.5 kW) with very good results. Fortress is working on the communications between the two, already have their Flex5Kw battery working with it. Easy to install, dependable and the 400 lb EVault is on wheels. Just back from installing a double 12kW with three EVaults, a double 12 kW with two EVaults, and a single with two EVaults, all on Man O War Cay in the Bahamas. We had three previously installed systems there from last winter and all are working extremely well with happy clients! Daryl > I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are > mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with > disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery > systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 > requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are > proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls > stick > out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches > deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great > places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as > problematic? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From solarjon at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 18:00:20 2021 From: solarjon at gmail.com (Jonathan Hill) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 15:00:20 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall Message-ID: <3C8565CB-D7A7-4E41-AD25-B7E46478477A@gmail.com> Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy inverters ro other string inverters? From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jan 31 18:36:38 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:36:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: <3f8e88dbd4fd8e8e774da341e85c9e99@127.0.0.1> References: <3f8e88dbd4fd8e8e774da341e85c9e99@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: 100kWh/day of consumption is pretty typical during hurricane season in Florida for the type of client that can afford battery backup and enough PV to keep the frozen margarita blender going. My clients don't want to change their lifestyle. After all, they don't have to with a whole house generator. Why would they with solar/battery. Even 60kWh is a tough ask to get through the night with 85F nightime ambient and 95% humidity in August. Telling a grid-tied client that wants whole home backup with solar/ battery that they still need a backup generator is a non-starter. So we need really big batteries here (and a lot of roof space). Some of the new battery players just don't get that. I won't name names, but 40kWh or less max parallel capacity just isn't marketable here. Jason On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:59 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > You were asking for 60KWH of storage, it has to go somewhere and fit. Too > me, that is a ridiculous amount of storage and sounds like someone with > an all electric kitchen and laundry, 4 ton ac units, +++. > > The system pix attached can add 20 of these 6.7 KWH useable AES batteries, > but much easier to choose the right appliances. > > I realize that I am assuming here, I do get requests like that so do not > take this wrong! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:27:48 -0500, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are > mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with > disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery > systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 > requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are > proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick > out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches > deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great > places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as > problematic? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jan 31 18:41:05 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:41:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <655128FD-41C6-4DA9-8FC4-A15278AD27F3@gmail.com> References: <655128FD-41C6-4DA9-8FC4-A15278AD27F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: That sounds interesting. But I see Simpliphi now has a preconfigured Sol-Ark system with the inverter mounted in thier AcceESS enclosure from the factory, not to mention preprogrammed for the number of batteries purchased for the system. If I were to go with Simpliphi I might lean toward this solution unless there are some downsides I'm missing. On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:59 PM MDElectricSolar wrote: > I’m using Simpliphi inside an outback battery box, very nice looking > package. > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Jan 31, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  > Blue planet has BMS integration with solar is a very stable product with > the best warranty > Jerry > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 11:25 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you recommend? >> I need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with closed-loop >> communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important >> consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with Tesla >> is tough with some of these ugly beasts. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 18:50:54 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 16:50:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F11F938-6410-4B7F-B3C2-438BE245FC3E@gmail.com> Hi Jason I’ve seen this happen to battleborn. They sell a totally cobbled part to prevent that. Jay > On Jan 31, 2021, at 3:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I had another battery manufacturer's BMS contactor weld shut due to an inrush current problem with another brand of inverter. That was "fun." It seems strange that this issue of cap loading hasn't been addressed. Hopefully it will be. > > To clarify the SOC not drifting... Are you saying in an off-grid system you can reliably use the Sol-Ark SOC to trigger generator start and charging parameters without causing discrepancies in SOC on the battery meter itself and balancing is not a problem? If so, I'm comfortable with that I think. > > Jason > > > > >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:45 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> Hey Jason, >> >> I've installed a few systems now using Fortress eVaults. I like them as they are a nice 18.5 KW increment and the BMS seems hardy - nice interface screen showing SOC on each battery. >> >> However, call Fortress and discuss the status of their closed loop communications (and talk to Sol-Ark about it too). The tech at Fortress told me that less than 4 eVaults the closed loop communication is more trouble than it's worth between batteries. That appears to be because they simply have not employed a soft-start resistor and the batteries shut down when exposed to cap loading during inverter start-up. They said relying on the individual battery BMSs works fine. I've found that to be true so far - no drift in SOC from battery and Sol-Ark. >> >> Their eFlex system is supposed to be totally closed loop communication between batts and with a Sol-Ark. It's a bit of a small increment for large systems but may be worth it. >> >> I imagine they will offer an upgrade for eVaults or a new model soon with full closed loop. Sol-Ark tech said they were still working with them on that. >> >> Hope that helps! >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >>> Jason Szumlanski January 31, 2021 at 11:27 AM >>> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as problematic? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 18:28:50 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 15:28:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: <3C8565CB-D7A7-4E41-AD25-B7E46478477A@gmail.com> References: <3C8565CB-D7A7-4E41-AD25-B7E46478477A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tesla is ac coupled you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel, everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too. Jerry On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill wrote: > Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy > inverters ro other string inverters? > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From russo.lou at gmail.com Sun Jan 31 18:42:13 2021 From: russo.lou at gmail.com (Lou Russo) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 13:42:13 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Aloha All, I just had a plan reviewer kick out our plans for this very reason! Sol-Ark 12kw mounted above a Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet. Lucky on this job I have the space to offset the 2 pieces of equipment so I didn't push back at all. But it will definitely be a problem in a lot of future installs. Not to mention aesthetically it doesn't look very neat and tidy. I am think that the wording of 110.26(E) (1) (a) and 110.26(E) (2) (c) may be my ticket: "No piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation shall be located in this zone" I have to think that the battery is not foreign to the electrical installation. Any thoughts? Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 345 6762 On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 12:59 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade with > the exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper than the > enclosure for which the working space applies. > > For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and > countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors > around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it. > > I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery enclosure > below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, but by the book > it seems like a violation. > > Jason > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or >> understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in >> the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above >> blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an >> enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries >> further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are >> required for the "system" to operate they are necessary. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are >>> mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with >>> disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery >>> systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 >>> requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are >>> proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick >>> out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches >>> deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great >>> places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as >>> problematic? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Sun Jan 31 22:57:54 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 19:57:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What to do with failed Outback boards Message-ID: Hello again, Just wondering if anyone has been made aware of an ideal solution for failed Outback boards for the VFX and FX series? Maybe it’s their policy with the newer FXR series as well but ever since the Alpha Group acquired them around 2010 (I believe that’s when the headaches started anyway) and they stopped doing the prepaid shipping and replacement boards back and forth I’ve been collecting a nice little stash of their e-waste. A few times I was able to fit them in other boxes being sent to back to them but my shelves are getting a bit encumbered now and in the effort of starting 2021 with less clutter I’ve decided it’s time to stop collecting truly unusable parts. There are plenty of other pieces of used equipment I’m still going to hold onto but really can’t see a purpose for these boards any more. Is there anyone out there taking advantage of this business opportunity and repairing them or are they truly destined to e-waste collection? I thought of doing some cool large art piece out of them as well but thinking I should talk myself out of that option. Any ideas? My guess is Enersys isn’t going to come up with a solution to this any time soon either. Nick Lucchese From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Feb 1 01:13:28 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 23:13:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] E-Meter repair Message-ID: <26f6449f-819a-9748-c8be-3291d121bd6a@sindelarsolar.com> Is there anyone out there who is capable of repairing an old Cruising Equipment E-Meter? I have one 20-year customer whose E-Meter has failed in one function and she has not been pleased with the algorithm of the TriMetric 2030 that I installed to replace it. The old meters are so reliable that I'm not sure I have ever tried to find someone capable of repairing one. Any referrals would be welcome. Thank you, Allan *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Sun Jan 31 21:46:01 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:46:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason - Yes, it's definitely a violation of 110.26 to have batteries/enclosures below things like panelboards if the batteries stick out more than 6" past the face of the panelboards (etc). Specifically, it would be a violation of 110.26(A), which is distinct from 110.26(E) (the section that addresses "other systems" such as ducts, etc). 110.26(A) is all about providing a safe "working space" for an electrician to maintain the panelboard, disconnect, etc without having to reach over or around other equipment (of any kind), which would put the electrician in a compromised position when maintaining potentially energized equipment. Additionally, the 6" allowance granted by 110.26(A)(3) is only valid if the batteries are "associated" with the electrical installation (which they would be, if the panelboards and other equipment whose working space is being infringed upon are related to the batteries). When we are pressed for space, we have built out the wall above the batteries so that the face of the panelboards, etc are within 6" of the outside face of the battery enclosure(s). One example is attached here (with three Powerwalls stacked). Best, Blake On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are > mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with > disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery > systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 > requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are > proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick > out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches > deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great > places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as > problematic? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200814_142541.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 390195 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20200814_142530.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 340772 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Sun Jan 31 22:41:23 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2021 19:41:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <198901fd-3cc8-d816-e52e-e9f1712f60ad@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <6BA15AC5-8B98-49FD-972A-D03F328D6F11@me.com> Good evening Wrenchers, I too have observed this overlooked detail over the last couple decades and always tried to make sure this wasn’t overlooked in the initial design phase. Obviously we often aren’t given the ideal palette we want to build on especially with system upgrades or in newly allocated system placements. For some reason it seems to me it was a little less ideal in the past due to off gassing and frequently accessed lead acid battery boxes but still to this day I cringe a little (much like Jason maybe) every time I see a photo of a poorly planned equipment room but I try to remind myself there are always variables I may not be aware of. Of course as Jerry and others have mentioned since it’s part of the same system it is likely interpreted to be an acceptable installation practice. Luckily in our jurisdiction some of these details are overlooked anyway and it’s the silly things like a missing sticker that they’ll dwell on but nevertheless I always do my best to adhere to articles 110 and 240 when designing equipment room layouts. One strategy that worked well for me on a recent installation with 32 KWH’s of Blue Ions and a couple of Radians was to build out a cove/soffit roughly 14” deep to hang the Radians and wireway. This allowed the Blue Ion 2 cabinets to slide under all of the power conversion equipment which then put nearly everything in a flush vertical plane so 110.26(A)3 was not violated. Also even with their older cabinet at 42.5” high I was still able to have the 10” wire way and GSLC meet 240.24(A) so that none of the overcurrent handles exceeded 79”. I was pushing near this limit by the time the nipples/stubs were mounted in between the wireway and GSLC but their newest cabinet is back to their original height of just 39” so there will be a little more leeway on future installs with this approach. Of course the newer cabinet is 31’5” deep now as well so the cove would need to be closer to 22” deep for everything to line up. If Fortress is your go to battery I believe the eVault is under 39” also so it would work with this layout as well. The framed out upper cove/soffit which to mount the equipment on was built in under a day even after I mudded and taped the drywall and then one more day was added for the client’s laborer to paint it to match the room but ultimately I was very satisfied with this approach and intend to do so on future installations when I have control over all the details early on. Materials cost less than $200 to build it out in this manner. This thread has been a blend of Jason’s original questions of the "Best Lipo battery for Sol-Ark” and “Working Spaces" so I guess I’ll jump on the bandwagon and break best practices for proper thread management as well (ha) and also second Jerry’s recommendation for Blue Planet. Out of all the distributors and manufacturers I’ve ever worked with I can truly say they are my favorite by a long shot. They are to the renewable energy industry what Ben & Jerry’s is to ice cream and Patagonia is to gear. I try to avoid saying anything is the best because what is best for one application may not be for another but I can say my 45th cabinet felt just as rewarding to install as my 1st. I wish I had had the same passion to support all the other providers as much as I do Blue Planet but then nobody delivers like Blue Planet. Also, full disclosure, I’ve yet to install it with a Sol-Ark but I just learned yesterday that the Sol-Ark will communicate with the BMS and restart the battery cabinet up from a cold start on either the DC coupled side or AC side, that is cool, hats off to both company’s for tackling that. Nick Lucchese Aloha All, I just had a plan reviewer kick out our plans for this very reason! Sol-Ark 12kw mounted above a Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet. Lucky on this job I have the space to offset the 2 pieces of equipment so I didn't push back at all. But it will definitely be a problem in a lot of future installs. Not to mention aesthetically it doesn't look very neat and tidy. I am think that the wording of 110.26(E) (1) (a) and 110.26(E) (2) (c) may be my ticket: "No piping, ducts, leak protection apparatus, or other equipment foreign to the electrical installation shall be located in this zone" I have to think that the battery is not foreign to the electrical installation. Any thoughts? Aloha, Lou Russo (808) 345 6762 >> Jason Szumlanski January 31, 2021 at 11:27 AM >> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as problematic? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Feb 1 01:27:00 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 01:27:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This isn't just a Li+ issue, this has been a problem going all the way back to the 90s.  Basically many AHJs don't catch it, but its still a violation.  We either keep the battery cabinet shallow, or we put the battery cabinet to the side.   Just use some common sense, if you are having to lean awkwardly over or around something to get to the breakers, its probably a violation. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/31/21 5:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade > with the exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper > than the enclosure for which the working space applies. > > For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and > countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors > around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it. > > I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery > enclosure below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, > but by the book it seems like a violation. > > Jason > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading > or understanding it, I do see where foreign components are > restricted with in the space. We have systems with two or three > outback radians above blueplanet batteries and have not seen an > issue. The BPE's are in an enclosed cabinet fire approved and > protected from shock, putting batteries further away will create > space issues. Since all of these components are required for the > "system" to operate they are necessary. > Jerry > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and > people are mounting equipment above them like load centers, > inverters with disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. > Some of these battery systems are 24 inches deep or more. This > seems to violate NEC 110.26 requirements for the other > serviceable equipment, but the pictures are proudly displayed > as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick out > significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than > 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery > cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but > does anyone else see this as problematic? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roy at four-winds-energy.com Mon Feb 1 08:08:04 2021 From: roy at four-winds-energy.com (Roy Butler) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:08:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What to do with failed Outback boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <188f2b26-b61b-654b-7326-04ec8fcc402f@four-winds-energy.com> Hi Nick, I have my legacy OB boards repaired by Kris Stone in Washington State. He was the FX repair tech at Outback for 5yrs before they farmed it out to min wage temps in AZ. His prices are reasonable. stkrizzi at yahoo.com Roy Butler Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. On 1/31/2021 10:57 PM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > Hello again, > > Just wondering if anyone has been made aware of an ideal solution for failed Outback boards for the VFX and FX series? Maybe it’s their policy with the newer FXR series as well but ever since the Alpha Group acquired them around 2010 (I believe that’s when the headaches started anyway) and they stopped doing the prepaid shipping and replacement boards back and forth I’ve been collecting a nice little stash of their e-waste. A few times I was able to fit them in other boxes being sent to back to them but my shelves are getting a bit encumbered now and in the effort of starting 2021 with less clutter I’ve decided it’s time to stop collecting truly unusable parts. There are plenty of other pieces of used equipment I’m still going to hold onto but really can’t see a purpose for these boards any more. Is there anyone out there taking advantage of this business opportunity and repairing them or are they truly destined to e-waste collection? I thought of doing some cool large art piece out of them as well but thinking I should talk myself out of that option. Any ideas? My guess is Enersys isn’t going to come up with a solution to this any time soon either. > > Nick Lucchese > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From tump at swnl.net Mon Feb 1 09:02:54 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:02:54 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What to do with failed Outback boards In-Reply-To: <188f2b26-b61b-654b-7326-04ec8fcc402f@four-winds-energy.com> References: <188f2b26-b61b-654b-7326-04ec8fcc402f@four-winds-energy.com> Message-ID: <50143C1B-6523-4DF7-A949-C992F8B0FD85@swnl.net> Kris Stone 425 233 0731 > On Feb 1, 2021, at 8:08 AM, Roy Butler wrote: > > Hi Nick, > > I have my legacy OB boards repaired by Kris Stone in Washington State. > He was the FX repair tech at Outback for 5yrs before they farmed it out to min wage temps in AZ. > > His prices are reasonable. > > stkrizzi at yahoo.com > > Roy Butler > Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC > 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 > 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com > > Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. > > Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, > a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > > On 1/31/2021 10:57 PM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: >> Hello again, >> >> Just wondering if anyone has been made aware of an ideal solution for failed Outback boards for the VFX and FX series? Maybe it’s their policy with the newer FXR series as well but ever since the Alpha Group acquired them around 2010 (I believe that’s when the headaches started anyway) and they stopped doing the prepaid shipping and replacement boards back and forth I’ve been collecting a nice little stash of their e-waste. A few times I was able to fit them in other boxes being sent to back to them but my shelves are getting a bit encumbered now and in the effort of starting 2021 with less clutter I’ve decided it’s time to stop collecting truly unusable parts. There are plenty of other pieces of used equipment I’m still going to hold onto but really can’t see a purpose for these boards any more. Is there anyone out there taking advantage of this business opportunity and repairing them or are they truly destined to e-waste collection? I thought of doing some cool large art piece out of them as well but thinking I should talk myself out of that option. Any ideas? My guess is Enersys isn’t going to come up with a solution to this any time soon either. >> >> Nick Lucchese >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 09:49:32 2021 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:49:32 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> Message-ID: Good day! With regards to Outback and MLSD we have used without a problem the Fire Raptor system. We have done 3 installations so far. It is very time consuming to say the least with wire management being the key culprit. We also use SolarEdge frequently and have found the Fire Raptor system to be significantly more time consuming (2-3x). The installation is straightforward and pretty easy to integrate with Outback Inverters and FM 100's. The Fire Raptor instal manual is close to useless. Brad at AEE provided us with a variety of really good and easy to follow wiring diagrams which give flexibility depending on install preferences and equipment used. We have had no troubles since installation at any of the sites. I am happy to share the diarams - pm me if interested. My thoughts regarding their offering is that they are significantly over priced for what they provide. The wiring provided is clumsy at best. Plenty of room for refinement and improvement in their offerings - but it does provide us with a way to meet code requirements and keep our inspectors happy for our roof mounted solar connected to our Outback based balance of system. The MLSD requirements for off grid systems sure have done a good job of making safety expensive! It helps drive the arguement for gound/pole mount systems - which i prefer anyway! I welcome info about any other system that may be available. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarjon at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 10:38:30 2021 From: solarjon at gmail.com (Jonathan Hill) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 07:38:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> So it can be used with a Sunnyboy, correct? Have you ever installed one? Jon Hill Solar design engineer 530-559-3781 solarjon at gmail.com > On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Tesla is ac coupled you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel, everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too. > Jerry > >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill wrote: >> Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy inverters ro other string inverters? >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Feb 1 11:17:26 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:17:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> References: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon, We've installed Powerwalls in combination with a good handful of different PV inverters including SMA Sunnyboys, SolarEdge, Fronius, Enphase, SunPower SolarBridge MIs, and ABB/PowerOne. They have all worked fine. Of course the true test is how well they AC-couple during a grid outage. We do a thorough commissioning test including making sure that the inverters AC-couple during a simulated power outage, and those have checked out. We've had a number of power outage events throughout the Bay and for the most part the systems have worked well. The Powerwall system has all in all been very impressive. August Luminalt On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 7:38 AM Jonathan Hill wrote: > So it can be used with a Sunnyboy, correct? Have you ever installed one? > > Jon Hill > Solar design engineer > 530-559-3781 > solarjon at gmail.com > > > On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  > Tesla is ac coupled you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel, > everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too. > Jerry > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill wrote: > >> Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy >> inverters ro other string inverters? >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 11:19:35 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 11:19:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <655128FD-41C6-4DA9-8FC4-A15278AD27F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, Simpliphi AccESS taps out at a maximum of 22.8 kWh per unit. I really appreciate the integrated bussing system on the AccESS (reminds me of what Sonnen and BluePlanet have done), but if you are looking for higher storage capacity, this is probably not the best solution. Although you could install multiple units, at that point the price of 3 cabinets to achieve 60+ kWh would be much greater than incorporating either another closed loop battery manufacturer OR installing numerous AmpliPHIs with a battery combiner and avoiding the AccESS cabinet all together. -Chris On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 7:10 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > That sounds interesting. But I see Simpliphi now has a preconfigured > Sol-Ark system with the inverter mounted in thier AcceESS enclosure from > the factory, not to mention preprogrammed for the number of batteries > purchased for the system. If I were to go with Simpliphi I might lean > toward this solution unless there are some downsides I'm missing. > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:59 PM MDElectricSolar > wrote: > >> I’m using Simpliphi inside an outback battery box, very nice looking >> package. >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >> On Jan 31, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>  >> Blue planet has BMS integration with solar is a very stable product with >> the best warranty >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 11:25 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you >>> recommend? I need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with closed-loop >>> communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important >>> consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with Tesla >>> is tough with some of these ugly beasts. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Mon Feb 1 11:39:22 2021 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 11:39:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <655128FD-41C6-4DA9-8FC4-A15278AD27F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07d288f1c798e3bc10c57589eff502d0.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> I would reiterate you take a look at Fortress Evaults. We have many, and in multiple numbers, installed with SolArk and they are an elegant solution. Daryl > Hi Jason, > > Simpliphi AccESS taps out at a maximum of 22.8 kWh per unit. I really > appreciate the integrated bussing system on the AccESS (reminds me of what > Sonnen and BluePlanet have done), but if you are looking for higher > storage > capacity, this is probably not the best solution. Although you could > install multiple units, at that point the price of 3 cabinets to achieve > 60+ kWh would be much greater than incorporating either another closed > loop > battery manufacturer OR installing numerous AmpliPHIs with a > battery combiner and avoiding the AccESS cabinet all together. > > -Chris > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 7:10 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> That sounds interesting. But I see Simpliphi now has a preconfigured >> Sol-Ark system with the inverter mounted in thier AcceESS enclosure from >> the factory, not to mention preprogrammed for the number of batteries >> purchased for the system. If I were to go with Simpliphi I might lean >> toward this solution unless there are some downsides I'm missing. >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:59 PM MDElectricSolar >> >> wrote: >> >>> I’m using Simpliphi inside an outback battery box, very nice looking >>> package. >>> >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>> 707-884-1862 office >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> >>> On Jan 31, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Blue planet has BMS integration with solar is a very stable product >>> with >>> the best warranty >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 11:25 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you >>>> recommend? I need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with >>>> closed-loop >>>> communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important >>>> consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with >>>> Tesla >>>> is tough with some of these ugly beasts. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 10:43:03 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:43:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question In-Reply-To: References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> Message-ID: Some questions to those installing fortress power. 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which inverter 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for communication/monitoring? thx jay From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Feb 1 06:09:04 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 06:09:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: True, but batteries that require service have their own working space requirements. I am referring specifically to batteries that are not service. I would have no problem working safely on a panelboard above Powerwalls stacked 3 deep, but I recognize that it is a violation nonetheless. I like the idea of building out the wall. On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 1:28 AM Ray wrote: > This isn't just a Li+ issue, this has been a problem going all the way > back to the 90s. Basically many AHJs don't catch it, but its still a > violation. We either keep the battery cabinet shallow, or we put the > battery cabinet to the side. Just use some common sense, if you are > having to lean awkwardly over or around something to get to the breakers, > its probably a violation. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/31/21 5:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade with > the exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper than the > enclosure for which the working space applies. > > For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and > countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors > around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it. > > I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery enclosure > below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, but by the book > it seems like a violation. > > Jason > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or >> understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in >> the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above >> blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an >> enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries >> further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are >> required for the "system" to operate they are necessary. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are >>> mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with >>> disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery >>> systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 >>> requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are >>> proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick >>> out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches >>> deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great >>> places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as >>> problematic? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 1 11:56:26 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 08:56:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question In-Reply-To: References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> Message-ID: <090a99ba8e29629fd77b786d8c8f17c0@127.0.0.1> Jay, I worked with them on the XW to close the loop. They did get it working with Eflex and it is easy to commission. However, they were not able to get the conext insight data out to the cloud totally implemented. Until they prove that to me, I will stay with Discover AES. The site at the bottom showing state of charge is an AES battery BTW. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:43:03 -0700, jay wrote: > Some questions to those installing fortress power. > > 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which > inverter > > 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for > communication/monitoring? > > thx > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aj.PNG Type: image/png Size: 46610 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 1 12:09:57 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 09:09:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] E-Meter repair In-Reply-To: <26f6449f-819a-9748-c8be-3291d121bd6a@sindelarsolar.com> References: <26f6449f-819a-9748-c8be-3291d121bd6a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <11e8f563b271ab0020cc5923f149859d@127.0.0.1> I use to know how to fix them when I was a cruising sailor. Had one and spare on board Astraea. I googled and saw some results that might help. Below was my search. Good Luck cruising equipment company digital e-meter + Repair Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 31 Jan 2021 23:13:28 -0700, Sindelar Solar wrote: Is there anyone out there who is capable of repairing an old Cruising Equipment E-Meter? I have one 20-year customer whose E-Meter has failed in one function and she has not been pleased with the algorithm of the TriMetric 2030 that I installed to replace it. The old meters are so reliable that I'm not sure I have ever tried to find someone capable of repairing one. Any referrals would be welcome. Thank you, Allan ALLAN SINDELAR allan at sindelarsolar.com [3] NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 CELL Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:allan at sindelarsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 12:10:01 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 12:10:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question In-Reply-To: <090a99ba8e29629fd77b786d8c8f17c0@127.0.0.1> References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> <090a99ba8e29629fd77b786d8c8f17c0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Jay, I have installed the eFlex paired with Sol Ark and it was very straight forward. You need to make a modified RJ45 cable, but other than that, it’s pretty much plug and play. I believe that Fortress is still working on their WiFi monitoring for the eFlex...They say the eVault will be closed loop by Q2. -Chris On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Jay, > > I worked with them on the XW to close the loop. They did get it working > with Eflex and it is easy to commission. However, they were not able to get > the conext insight data out to the cloud totally implemented. Until they > prove that to me, I will stay with Discover AES. The site at the bottom > showing state of charge is an AES battery BTW. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:43:03 -0700, jay wrote: > > Some questions to those installing fortress power. > > > > 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which > > inverter > > > > 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for > > communication/monitoring? > > > > thx > > jay > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 12:12:41 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:12:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] E-Meter repair In-Reply-To: <26f6449f-819a-9748-c8be-3291d121bd6a@sindelarsolar.com> References: <26f6449f-819a-9748-c8be-3291d121bd6a@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Eguage is a great platform but a little pricey Jerry On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 10:21 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Is there anyone out there who is capable of repairing an old Cruising > Equipment E-Meter? I have one 20-year customer whose E-Meter has failed in > one function and she has not been pleased with the algorithm of the > TriMetric 2030 that I installed to replace it. The old meters are so > reliable that I'm not sure I have ever tried to find someone capable of > repairing one. Any referrals would be welcome. > > Thank you, Allan > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Mon Feb 1 12:37:08 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:37:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What to do with failed Outback boards In-Reply-To: <50143C1B-6523-4DF7-A949-C992F8B0FD85@swnl.net> References: <188f2b26-b61b-654b-7326-04ec8fcc402f@four-winds-energy.com> <50143C1B-6523-4DF7-A949-C992F8B0FD85@swnl.net> Message-ID: <18F1AE86-6FBB-409F-A460-F92DF6C866A4@me.com> That is incredible news Tump and Roy! Thanks so much for that. I would have been bummed if I had gotten rid of them. Enjoy your day, Nick > On Feb 1, 2021, at 6:02 AM, Tump wrote: > > Kris Stone 425 233 0731 >> On Feb 1, 2021, at 8:08 AM, Roy Butler > wrote: >> >> Hi Nick, >> >> I have my legacy OB boards repaired by Kris Stone in Washington State. >> He was the FX repair tech at Outback for 5yrs before they farmed it out to min wage temps in AZ. >> >> His prices are reasonable. >> >> stkrizzi at yahoo.com >> >> Roy Butler >> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC >> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807 >> 607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com >> >> Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don’t. >> >> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, >> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. >> >> >> On 1/31/2021 10:57 PM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: >>> Hello again, >>> >>> Just wondering if anyone has been made aware of an ideal solution for failed Outback boards for the VFX and FX series? Maybe it’s their policy with the newer FXR series as well but ever since the Alpha Group acquired them around 2010 (I believe that’s when the headaches started anyway) and they stopped doing the prepaid shipping and replacement boards back and forth I’ve been collecting a nice little stash of their e-waste. A few times I was able to fit them in other boxes being sent to back to them but my shelves are getting a bit encumbered now and in the effort of starting 2021 with less clutter I’ve decided it’s time to stop collecting truly unusable parts. There are plenty of other pieces of used equipment I’m still going to hold onto but really can’t see a purpose for these boards any more. Is there anyone out there taking advantage of this business opportunity and repairing them or are they truly destined to e-waste collection? I thought of doing some cool large art piece out of them as well but thinking I should talk myself out of that option. Any ideas? My guess is Enersys isn’t going to come up with a solution to this any time soon either. >>> >>> Nick Lucchese >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 12:24:15 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 10:24:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F43FF9C-ED6A-4F8E-8008-A5B12B67667F@gmail.com> Thx Chris. Does the sol ark use the % info from the batteries for ags operation? Jay > On Feb 1, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > >  > Jay, > > I have installed the eFlex paired with Sol Ark and it was very straight forward. You need to make a modified RJ45 cable, but other than that, it’s pretty much plug and play. I believe that Fortress is still working on their WiFi monitoring for the eFlex...They say the eVault will be closed loop by Q2. > > -Chris > >> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Jay, >> >> I worked with them on the XW to close the loop. They did get it working >> with Eflex and it is easy to commission. However, they were not able to get >> the conext insight data out to the cloud totally implemented. Until they >> prove that to me, I will stay with Discover AES. The site at the bottom >> showing state of charge is an AES battery BTW. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:43:03 -0700, jay wrote: >> > Some questions to those installing fortress power. >> > >> > 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which >> > inverter >> > >> > 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for >> > communication/monitoring? >> > >> > thx >> > jay >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >> > other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org_______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Mon Feb 1 12:43:22 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 09:43:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78166AF6-DD2A-43A9-9AE1-E9D95ABC1892@me.com> Here’s the built out wall/cove/soffit of mine as well. Kind of hard to tell though, need to take a side view picture. Before and after expanding the battery bank. It’s about to get expanded again on the PV side and still is missing a piece of trim in the photos. Nick Lucchese > On Feb 1, 2021, at 3:09 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > True, but batteries that require service have their own working space requirements. I am referring specifically to batteries that are not service. > > I would have no problem working safely on a panelboard above Powerwalls stacked 3 deep, but I recognize that it is a violation nonetheless. I like the idea of building out the wall. > > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 1:28 AM Ray > wrote: > This isn't just a Li+ issue, this has been a problem going all the way back to the 90s. Basically many AHJs don't catch it, but its still a violation. We either keep the battery cabinet shallow, or we put the battery cabinet to the side. Just use some common sense, if you are having to lean awkwardly over or around something to get to the breakers, its probably a violation. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 1/31/21 5:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade with the exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper than the enclosure for which the working space applies. >> >> For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it. >> >> I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery enclosure below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, but by the book it seems like a violation. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are required for the "system" to operate they are necessary. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: >> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as problematic? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_4366.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 268292 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_8568.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 282882 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 14:21:46 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 14:21:46 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question In-Reply-To: <7F43FF9C-ED6A-4F8E-8008-A5B12B67667F@gmail.com> References: <7F43FF9C-ED6A-4F8E-8008-A5B12B67667F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Yes, when installed in a closed loop configuration, the Sol Ark uses the SOC% provided by the BMS...which can be used to control the AGS. On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 1:58 PM Jay wrote: > Thx Chris. > > Does the sol ark use the % info from the batteries for ags operation? > > Jay > > On Feb 1, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >  > > Jay, > > I have installed the eFlex paired with Sol Ark and it was very straight > forward. You need to make a modified RJ45 cable, but other than that, it’s > pretty much plug and play. I believe that Fortress is still working on > their WiFi monitoring for the eFlex...They say the eVault will be closed > loop by Q2. > > -Chris > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Jay, >> >> I worked with them on the XW to close the loop. They did get it working >> with Eflex and it is easy to commission. However, they were not able to >> get >> the conext insight data out to the cloud totally implemented. Until they >> prove that to me, I will stay with Discover AES. The site at the bottom >> showing state of charge is an AES battery BTW. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:43:03 -0700, jay wrote: >> > Some questions to those installing fortress power. >> > >> > 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which >> > inverter >> > >> > 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for >> > communication/monitoring? >> > >> > thx >> > jay >> > _______________________________________________ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >> > other: >> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Feb 1 16:59:27 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:59:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question In-Reply-To: References: <7F43FF9C-ED6A-4F8E-8008-A5B12B67667F@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think this was mentioned by others, but Fortress confirmed to me today that closed loop only works with one or two evault batteries with Sol-Ark. More than that and communications breaks down. They're working on a fix, but they told me that there are no guarantees. They could not give me a date. It sounded like it was a hardware fix and existing batteries would not be upgradable. Jason On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 2:22 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Jay, > > Yes, when installed in a closed loop configuration, the Sol Ark uses the > SOC% provided by the BMS...which can be used to control the AGS. > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 1:58 PM Jay wrote: > >> Thx Chris. >> >> Does the sol ark use the % info from the batteries for ags operation? >> >> Jay >> >> On Feb 1, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Jay, >> >> I have installed the eFlex paired with Sol Ark and it was very straight >> forward. You need to make a modified RJ45 cable, but other than that, it’s >> pretty much plug and play. I believe that Fortress is still working on >> their WiFi monitoring for the eFlex...They say the eVault will be closed >> loop by Q2. >> >> -Chris >> >> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> >>> Jay, >>> >>> I worked with them on the XW to close the loop. They did get it working >>> with Eflex and it is easy to commission. However, they were not able to >>> get >>> the conext insight data out to the cloud totally implemented. Until they >>> prove that to me, I will stay with Discover AES. The site at the bottom >>> showing state of charge is an AES battery BTW. >>> >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>> >>> On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:43:03 -0700, jay wrote: >>> > Some questions to those installing fortress power. >>> > >>> > 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which >>> > inverter >>> > >>> > 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for >>> > communication/monitoring? >>> > >>> > thx >>> > jay >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> > >>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the >>> > other: >>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> > >>> > List rules & etiquette: >>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> > >>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 17:37:34 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:37:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raceway Partitions or Barrier in Gutters Message-ID: Hello wrenches, What are folks using for raceway partitions to comply with 690.31(B) when running AC/DC and batteries conductors through a common gutter? Is there a product or just something made by the installer? These multiport inverters make it difficult not to use a gutter and have a clean installation. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Mon Feb 1 17:50:11 2021 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 14:50:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question In-Reply-To: References: <7F43FF9C-ED6A-4F8E-8008-A5B12B67667F@gmail.com> Message-ID: My experience and advice from Tech Support at Fortress was NOT to network the eVault 18.5 with only 2 batteries. We just installed two eVault18.5 with one Sol-Ark12K. The communication doesn't work properly with only two batteries. The tech advised to run both batteries independently as Masters, which was the only way we could make it work. All attempts at networking them failed. We didn't try to network the batteries to the inverter. Of course, Murphy's Law dictated that this was a remote system with no internet or cell reception. So, I had to make a second trip out to make it work after I found this out from Tech Support the next morning. Apparently you can network one battery with the Sol-Ark in closed loop but the tech I talked to said how this is done (special com cable) varies with the version of the Sol-Ark one is using since Sol-Ark has been making changes to their circuit board. Eric Smiley, MASc Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 at 14:01, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I think this was mentioned by others, but Fortress confirmed to me today > that closed loop only works with one or two evault batteries with Sol-Ark. > More than that and communications breaks down. They're working on a fix, > but they told me that there are no guarantees. They could not give me a > date. It sounded like it was a hardware fix and existing batteries would > not be upgradable. > > Jason > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 2:22 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Hi Jay, >> >> Yes, when installed in a closed loop configuration, the Sol Ark uses the >> SOC% provided by the BMS...which can be used to control the AGS. >> >> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 1:58 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Thx Chris. >>> >>> Does the sol ark use the % info from the batteries for ags operation? >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> On Feb 1, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Chris Sparadeo >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> Jay, >>> >>> I have installed the eFlex paired with Sol Ark and it was very straight >>> forward. You need to make a modified RJ45 cable, but other than that, it’s >>> pretty much plug and play. I believe that Fortress is still working on >>> their WiFi monitoring for the eFlex...They say the eVault will be closed >>> loop by Q2. >>> >>> -Chris >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >>> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Jay, >>>> >>>> I worked with them on the XW to close the loop. They did get it working >>>> with Eflex and it is easy to commission. However, they were not able to >>>> get >>>> the conext insight data out to the cloud totally implemented. Until they >>>> prove that to me, I will stay with Discover AES. The site at the bottom >>>> showing state of charge is an AES battery BTW. >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> >>>> On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:43:03 -0700, jay wrote: >>>> > Some questions to those installing fortress power. >>>> > >>>> > 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which >>>> > inverter >>>> > >>>> > 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for >>>> > communication/monitoring? >>>> > >>>> > thx >>>> > jay >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> > >>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the >>>> > other: >>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> > >>>> > List rules & etiquette: >>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> > >>>> > Check out or update participant bios: >>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -- >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> H_802-728-3059 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Feb 1 18:29:22 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:29:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raceway Partitions or Barrier in Gutters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <379bbe433dab73146b8b673883ede054@mail.gmail.com> Mac, Wrenches: I hope y’all can keep a secret: I admit I have been getting away without partitioning due to ignorance on the part of the local inspectors. I do try to follow the letter of the code, but I have not seen the safety hazard presented by not partitioning. Does anyone know why this requirement might make sense? However when I am called on it, I sleeve the PV conductors in some appropriately sized NMLT inside of the gutter. We have also run bonded EMT inside of a gutter in the past to meet separation requirements. The nice thing about this plan is crossing types of conductors inside the gutter is not the huge issue I imagine it could be. If you desire 100% coverage you size the NMLT to slip inside of the conduit entering the gutter for a short distance. Alternatively, we thread a rigid coupler on the inside of the fitting that enters your gutter and thread up an NMLT or other appropriate conduit connector onto that coupling inside of the gutter. Seems one of these methods should make your inspector happy and require minimal fabrication. See photo below for an example: I hope there is something here that helps you out. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Mac Lewis *Sent:* Monday, February 1, 2021 2:38 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Raceway Partitions or Barrier in Gutters Hello wrenches, What are folks using for raceway partitions to comply with 690.31(B) when running AC/DC and batteries conductors through a common gutter? Is there a product or just something made by the installer? These multiport inverters make it difficult not to use a gutter and have a clean installation. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 57716 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 1 18:55:36 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 15:55:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raceway Partitions or Barrier in Gutters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d8a784814c2d76498b692ac494416ff@127.0.0.1> I land 600vdc PV into the Mppt/Mppt's only. I never mix 600vdc with anything except SPD/disco ever! Just not that hard and for offgrid, standard practice for reliability. Same with 150vdc, I never get it into the PDP and disco it up stream form mppt. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:37:34 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello wrenches, What are folks using for raceway partitions to comply with 690.31(B) when running AC/DC and batteries conductors through a common gutter? Is there a product or just something made by the installer? These multiport inverters make it difficult not to use a gutter and have a clean installation. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Feb 1 19:06:10 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 19:06:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raceway Partitions or Barrier in Gutters In-Reply-To: <1d8a784814c2d76498b692ac494416ff@127.0.0.1> References: <1d8a784814c2d76498b692ac494416ff@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On both Outback and Midnites's AC/DC Load centers, they just have separate areas, but there is no partition, or anything like that. They are UL listed.  I don't do GT, so I don't really deal with this issue outside of the E panel, but if it were me, I'd just zip tie the PV wires together, put labeling on them so that it was clear they were PV conductors, and call it a day. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/1/21 6:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I land 600vdc PV into the Mppt/Mppt's only.  I never mix 600vdc with > anything except SPD/disco ever! > > Just not that hard and for offgrid, standard practice for reliability. > Same with 150vdc, I never get it into the PDP and disco it up stream > form mppt. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:37:34 -0700, Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hello wrenches, >> What are folks using for raceway partitions to comply with 690.31(B) >> when running AC/DC and batteries conductors through a common gutter?  >> Is there a product or just something made by the installer?  These >> multiport inverters make it difficult not to use a gutter and have a >> clean installation. >> Thanks! >> -- >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 1 19:12:38 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 16:12:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raceway Partitions or Barrier in Gutters In-Reply-To: References: <1d8a784814c2d76498b692ac494416ff@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5e8edcfdc762f5da528768fc92b62f04@127.0.0.1> Not a day for me. I do not care if it is UL listed or not. The Schneider PDP is UL also. Not high reliability in my opinion! Especially at 600vdc as there is not disco that will fit in the load center or PDP that I would trust. We all have our requirements and they can easily exceed UL ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 19:06:10 -0500, Ray wrote: On both Outback and Midnites's AC/DC Load centers, they just have separate areas, but there is no partition, or anything like that. They are UL listed. I don't do GT, so I don't really deal with this issue outside of the E panel, but if it were me, I'd just zip tie the PV wires together, put labeling on them so that it was clear they were PV conductors, and call it a day. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/1/21 6:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I land 600vdc PV into the Mppt/Mppt's only. I never mix 600vdc with anything except SPD/disco ever! Just not that hard and for offgrid, standard practice for reliability. Same with 150vdc, I never get it into the PDP and disco it up stream form mppt. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:37:34 -0700, Mac Lewis [5] wrote: Hello wrenches, What are folks using for raceway partitions to comply with 690.31(B) when running AC/DC and batteries conductors through a common gutter? Is there a product or just something made by the installer? These multiport inverters make it difficult not to use a gutter and have a clean installation. Thanks! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:maclewis1 at gmail.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Mon Feb 1 19:16:39 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:16:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raceway Partitions or Barrier in Gutters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wire Loom/Split loom Blake Gleason, PE Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence Sun Light & Power On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 2:37 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello wrenches, > > What are folks using for raceway partitions to comply with 690.31(B) when > running AC/DC and batteries conductors through a common gutter? Is there a > product or just something made by the installer? These multiport inverters > make it difficult not to use a gutter and have a clean installation. > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Feb 1 19:44:36 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 16:44:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Raceway Partitions or Barrier in Gutters In-Reply-To: <5e8edcfdc762f5da528768fc92b62f04@127.0.0.1> References: <1d8a784814c2d76498b692ac494416ff@127.0.0.1> <5e8edcfdc762f5da528768fc92b62f04@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Mac, We use wireway "gutters" all the time. Our supplier mostly sends us Hoffman brand wireways and they also sell a barrier kit: Here is an example of a barrier and a 4"x4"x24" wireway, you'd need to spec out the dimensions you need for your project: https://hoffman.nvent.com/en-us/products/barrier-kit-bolt/encf44bk60 https://hoffman.nvent.com/en-us/products/straight-section-lay-flat-cover-type-1/encf44t124gvp August Luminalt On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 4:12 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Not a day for me. > > I do not care if it is UL listed or not. The Schneider PDP is UL also. Not > high reliability in my opinion! Especially at 600vdc as there is not disco > that will fit in the load center or PDP that I would trust. We all have our > requirements and they can easily exceed UL ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 19:06:10 -0500, Ray wrote: > > On both Outback and Midnites's AC/DC Load centers, they just have separate > areas, but there is no partition, or anything like that. They are UL > listed. I don't do GT, so I don't really deal with this issue outside of > the E panel, but if it were me, I'd just zip tie the PV wires together, put > labeling on them so that it was clear they were PV conductors, and call it > a day. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/1/21 6:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I land 600vdc PV into the Mppt/Mppt's only. I never mix 600vdc with > anything except SPD/disco ever! > > Just not that hard and for offgrid, standard practice for reliability. > Same with 150vdc, I never get it into the PDP and disco it up stream form > mppt. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:37:34 -0700, Mac Lewis > wrote: > > Hello wrenches, > > What are folks using for raceway partitions to comply with 690.31(B) when > running AC/DC and batteries conductors through a common gutter? Is there a > product or just something made by the installer? These multiport inverters > make it difficult not to use a gutter and have a clean installation. > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 22:48:11 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 19:48:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well with the BPE 16kWh cabinet is not an issue then when its u der a Outback radian there is just enough room for a note pad. When we did the industrial batteries l will say that would be awkward hence they were never under the inverter mainly for the safety and gassing, blue planets dont gas. Jerry NAPCEP PV inspector On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 10:28 PM Ray wrote: > This isn't just a Li+ issue, this has been a problem going all the way > back to the 90s. Basically many AHJs don't catch it, but its still a > violation. We either keep the battery cabinet shallow, or we put the > battery cabinet to the side. Just use some common sense, if you are > having to lean awkwardly over or around something to get to the breakers, > its probably a violation. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/31/21 5:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade with > the exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper than the > enclosure for which the working space applies. > > For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and > countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors > around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it. > > I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery enclosure > below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, but by the book > it seems like a violation. > > Jason > > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or >> understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in >> the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above >> blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an >> enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries >> further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are >> required for the "system" to operate they are necessary. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are >>> mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with >>> disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery >>> systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 >>> requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are >>> proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick >>> out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches >>> deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great >>> places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as >>> problematic? >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeysolar at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 10:18:03 2021 From: honeysolar at gmail.com (Thomas Honey) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2021 10:18:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question In-Reply-To: References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> Message-ID: I have NOT installed the closed loop yet, but have installed Fortress with Schneider, Outback, and SolArk. Thus far, I have not used the eflex, because 5kWh(s) is not in my sweet spot (10-15kWh), and I always prefer a tighter electrical package. There is some type of communication platform with the closed loop eflex battery. I recommend contacting Fortress directly for more explanation. >From discussions that I have had with Fortress, they may be going to the eflex model for their future battery offerings. The SolArk, allows you to select SOC in present or voltage. In my most recent installation with a Fortress LFP10 and SolArk 12K pairing, I contacted Fortress (Jing) to verify all of my settings, and in the battery setup she had me check the [image: 20201211_141420.jpg] "Use Batt V charged" box. She said that this is a more accurate method of monitoring batt SOC. Thomas Honey On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 11:39 AM jay wrote: > Some questions to those installing fortress power. > > 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which > inverter > > 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for > communication/monitoring? > > thx > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20201211_141420.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 893394 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Feb 2 10:14:14 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 10:14:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One time we built the wall out to bring the equipment in to compliance with the front of the battery enclosure. Drake --- On 2021-02-01 01:27, Ray wrote: > This isn't just a Li+ issue, this has been a problem going all the way back to the 90s. Basically many AHJs don't catch it, but its still a violation. We either keep the battery cabinet shallow, or we put the battery cabinet to the side. Just use some common sense, if you are having to lean awkwardly over or around something to get to the breakers, its probably a violation. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/31/21 5:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade with the exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper than the enclosure for which the working space applies. > > For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it. > > I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery enclosure below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, but by the book it seems like a violation. > > Jason > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are required for the "system" to operate they are necessary. > Jerry > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26 requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as problematic? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 12:41:33 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 10:41:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tabuchi hybrid PV + storage In-Reply-To: References: <536449831.235766.1611950168229@mail.yahoo.com> <941d772c-b613-a11e-0722-ddd251e95271@psln.com> <4fa8e946-819e-a946-d794-14b98ceeb347@solarray.com> Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches: Has anyone here installed or is familiar with Tabuchi Electric out of Japan? All I can find is that they entered the USA market around 2016, and that the equipment I'm looking at is UL listed. 3 x PV MPPT input at 2500W each, 10 kWh Lithium storage (Panasonic cells). There's about 30 sets of components available surplus, in box, never installed. Curious what a non-profit NGO client of mine might be getting themselves into if they can snap them up cheap for a microgrid application. Thanks; Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Feb 3 12:52:47 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 09:52:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? Message-ID: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> Good morning Wrenches, I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? Thanks for your time, Nick A Lucchese From solarjon at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 14:37:18 2021 From: solarjon at gmail.com (Jonathan Hill) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:37:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi August- Thanks for the info. Just what I needed to hear. Jonny Hill > On Feb 1, 2021, at 8:17 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > We've installed Powerwalls in combination with a good handful of different PV inverters including SMA Sunnyboys, SolarEdge, Fronius, Enphase, SunPower SolarBridge MIs, and ABB/PowerOne. They have all worked fine. Of course the true test is how well they AC-couple during a grid outage. We do a thorough commissioning test including making sure that the inverters AC-couple during a simulated power outage, and those have checked out. We've had a number of power outage events throughout the Bay and for the most part the systems have worked well. The Powerwall system has all in all been very impressive. > > August > Luminalt > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 7:38 AM Jonathan Hill > wrote: > So it can be used with a Sunnyboy, correct? Have you ever installed one? > > Jon Hill > Solar design engineer > 530-559-3781 > solarjon at gmail.com > > >> On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> >>  >> Tesla is ac coupled you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel, everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill > wrote: >> Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy inverters ro other string inverters? >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 3 14:41:44 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 12:41:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> Message-ID: <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: Good morning Wrenches, I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? Thanks for your time, Nick A Lucchese -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 15:49:59 2021 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 15:49:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output. Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the road... Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of the house loads using the PSX-240?.. Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese > wrote: > > Good morning Wrenches, > > I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. > > How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? > > Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. > > There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? > > Thanks for your time, > Nick A Lucchese > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 3 16:10:36 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 14:10:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> Amos, When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post wrote: We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output. Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the road... Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of the house loads using the PSX-240?.. Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese > wrote: > > Good morning Wrenches, > > I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. > > How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? > > Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. > > There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? > > Thanks for your time, > Nick A Lucchese > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-02-03 at 2.00.39 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 120686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 3 16:15:30 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 13:15:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Load_imbalance_issues_with_SolArk=3F?= In-Reply-To: <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e44027faee83d4b22163cddb9d8d435@127.0.0.1> Never had this on a Radian or XW BTW. It would be a deal breaker for me to lose power EVER from this! I hope it is wrong! Seem like nice folks at solark. New construction is always a risk also as contractors have the junkiest power tools. There are people who think they can arc weld off an offgrid power system. Pretty crazy! Be careful! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 15:49:59 -0500, Amos Post wrote: We have had this issue with a recent installation. It's a new off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the other leg to balance the inverter's output. Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for "high-current" 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the road... Would be curious to know if there's another way to balance all of the house loads using the PSX-240?.. Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com [3] Facebook [4] On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com [5] wrote: If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: Good morning Wrenches, I've strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if's as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I'd be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home" mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian's 115 but I'm kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the "Limited to Home" mode? Thanks for your time, Nick A Lucchese _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.ienergyvt.com [4] https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=hl [5] mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com [6] mailto:lucchesesolar at me.com [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From integrityenergy101 at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 16:21:33 2021 From: integrityenergy101 at gmail.com (Amos Post) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 16:21:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <2D1161EA-8230-4591-B111-80D25912791F@gmail.com> Thanks Larry, This would be a 240V to 120V step down configuration correct? So the sub panel would be 120V only? Best, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Feb 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > Amos, > > When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post > wrote: > > We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output. > > Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the road... Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of the house loads using the PSX-240?.. > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: >> >> If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese > wrote: >> >> Good morning Wrenches, >> >> I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. >> >> How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? >> >> Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. >> >> There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? >> >> Thanks for your time, >> Nick A Lucchese >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IE LOGO 150x78.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From penobscotsolar at midmaine.com Wed Feb 3 17:03:27 2021 From: penobscotsolar at midmaine.com (penobscotsolar at midmaine.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 17:03:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> Message-ID: <6b3e57d6eba090c562f52e3eaf6d0dd0.squirrel@mail.otelco.net> Hi Nick, We have about 16 SolArk's installed and have a single 12 kW that has that "bus imbalance" error every once in a while. It seems to be a specific appliance (electric mixer) that it does it with, and only occasionally. I spoke with SolArk about it and they have a small "plug in" that doesn't cost much that will absorb the imbalance on that inverter. I bought one and I'll report back on how it works. The client is really happy with his system and considers it a minor nuisance. I'll give him the plug in and see if it helps. The other 15 SolArk's (2 8kw and 13 12kw) do not have this problem and are working perfectly. Daryl > Good morning Wrenches, > > I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but > have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues > with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as > 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with > attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a > delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a > toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back > up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting > calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer > the right equipment. > > How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have > NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? > > Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an > upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX > mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if > the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly > through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays > the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue > with imbalance shutdowns. > > There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the > thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s > 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these > shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long > enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most > reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited > to Home” mode? > > Thanks for your time, > Nick A Lucchese > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Feb 3 17:08:59 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 15:08:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <2D1161EA-8230-4591-B111-80D25912791F@gmail.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> <2D1161EA-8230-4591-B111-80D25912791F@gmail.com> Message-ID: You can have 120V circuits that would never need line balancing and 240V loads on the main panel. Then put any 120V circuits that may need line balancing on the PSX sub panel. Larry On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:21 PM, Amos Post wrote: Thanks Larry, This would be a 240V to 120V step down configuration correct? So the sub panel would be 120V only? Best, Amos Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook > On Feb 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > Amos, > > When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post > wrote: > > We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output. > > Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the road... Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of the house loads using the PSX-240?.. > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: >> >> If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese > wrote: >> >> Good morning Wrenches, >> >> I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. >> >> How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? >> >> Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. >> >> There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? >> >> Thanks for your time, >> Nick A Lucchese >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dustin at sol-ark.com Wed Feb 3 17:09:57 2021 From: dustin at sol-ark.com (Dustin Douglas) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 16:09:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <2D1161EA-8230-4591-B111-80D25912791F@gmail.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> <2D1161EA-8230-4591-B111-80D25912791F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17769f1ea73.fb5c3caa198720.2329343370216500349@sol-ark.com> Hi Nick, The 1400w difference is in terms of a DC load on an AC output, which is common when using variable speed appliances that use internal diodes that modify the sine wave. This does not apply to true AC loads where the Sol-Ark can do 4800w continuous at 120V. Dustin Douglas Engineering Support Lead (972)575-8875 ext. 108 http://www.Sol-Ark.com ---- On Wed, 03 Feb 2021 15:21:33 -0600 Amos Post wrote ---- Thanks Larry, This would be a 240V to 120V step down configuration correct?  So the sub panel would be 120V only? Best, Amos        Amos Post    Integrity Energy   W 802.763.7023    C 802.291.2188     http://www.ienergyvt.com        https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=hl On Feb 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM, mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: Amos, When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post wrote: We have had this issue with a recent installation.  It’s a new off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power tools.  The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table saw.  The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each.  What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output.   Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 to 120.  My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the road...  Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of the house loads using the PSX-240?..        Amos Post    Integrity Energy   W 802.763.7023    C 802.291.2188     http://www.ienergyvt.com/        https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=hl On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: Good morning Wrenches, I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? Thanks for your time, Nick A Lucchese _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1611331343167017_121312429.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46546 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 19:44:34 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 17:44:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> References: <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry I’m not so sure about that. The X-240 doesn’t work with the Radian or FXR versions. IE it won’t balance the loads so that the inverter sees a balance on L1/L2. It did do this for the older FX versions. Jay > On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:10 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > Amos, > > When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post wrote: > > We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output. > > Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the road... Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of the house loads using the PSX-240?.. > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: >> >> If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: >> >> Good morning Wrenches, >> >> I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. >> >> How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? >> >> Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. >> >> There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? >> >> Thanks for your time, >> Nick A Lucchese >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 22:31:41 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 21:31:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <17769f1ea73.fb5c3caa198720.2329343370216500349@sol-ark.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> <2D1161EA-8230-4591-B111-80D25912791F@gmail.com> <17769f1ea73.fb5c3caa198720.2329343370216500349@sol-ark.com> Message-ID: Nick, Larry has it correct, the 4kW autotransformer (PSX 240) will use both of the 120-volt legs of the inverter. It has two winding each able to handle one leg to neutral, but able to transfer power from one leg to the other. You can have 8000 Watts on either leg, one at a time, continuously, as both legs contribute. The autotransformer transfers power from one leg, 4000 watts, and the other leg gets its power directly from the inverter. This allows the use of a 120-240 volt subpanel with auto transfer balancing of the inverter legs. On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 5:08 PM Dustin Douglas wrote: > Hi Nick, > > The 1400w difference is in terms of a DC load on an AC output, which is > common when using variable speed appliances that use internal diodes that > modify the sine wave. This does not apply to true AC loads where the > Sol-Ark can do 4800w continuous at 120V. > > Dustin Douglas > Engineering Support Lead > (972)575-8875 ext. 108 > www.Sol-Ark.com > > > > > > ---- On Wed, 03 Feb 2021 15:21:33 -0600 *Amos Post > >* wrote ---- > > Thanks Larry, > > This would be a 240V to 120V step down configuration correct? So the sub > panel would be 120V only? > > Best, > Amos > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > Amos, > > When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX > will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay > balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a > sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post > wrote: > > We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new off-grid > house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power > tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, > table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps > or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air > compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP > each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load > on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output. > > Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for > “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 > to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these > loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the > road... Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of > the house loads using the PSX-240?.. > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to > balance the loads? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > > Good morning Wrenches, > > I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but > have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with > the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 > watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention > to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 > watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems > like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled > scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple > weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. > > How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have > NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? > > Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an > upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX > mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if > the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly > through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the > majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with > imbalance shutdowns. > > There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the > thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s > 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these > shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long > enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most > reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to > Home” mode? > > Thanks for your time, > Nick A Lucchese > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1611331343167017_121312429.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46546 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 22:47:22 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:47:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Maybe its just me but if an off grid inverter can't start up a 120 vac compressor l might want to look elsewhere. I have the old FX inverters start up and run massive bandsaw while homes were being built. Radians running everything from well pumps to sewer pumps all while off grid all without additional transformers or soft start controllers. I have systems in Honolulu that have 5 AC multi ton units all living just fine with two Radians and no additional transformers. Its just a little concerning that load imbalance was not considered with this inverter manufacture, and maybe they did. KISS! not more complicated Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Wed, Feb 3, 2021, 1:10 PM larry at starlightsolar.com < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > Amos, > > When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX > will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay > balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a > sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post > wrote: > > We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new off-grid > house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power > tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, > table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps > or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air > compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP > each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load > on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output. > > Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for > “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 > to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these > loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the > road... Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of > the house loads using the PSX-240?.. > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to > balance the loads? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > > Good morning Wrenches, > > I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but > have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with > the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 > watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention > to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 > watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems > like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled > scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple > weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. > > How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have > NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? > > Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an > upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX > mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if > the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly > through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the > majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with > imbalance shutdowns. > > There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the > thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s > 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these > shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long > enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most > reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to > Home” mode? > > Thanks for your time, > Nick A Lucchese > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-02-03 at 2.00.39 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 120686 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-02-03 at 2.00.39 PM.png Type: image/png Size: 120686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 4 00:26:06 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 00:26:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: References: <2B59E194-088C-438A-B0BC-134D8CEF415A@me.com> <5FA5DF06-8F80-41BF-8780-897FAEFBDF53@starlightsolar.com> <7B466CDC-1848-49F7-AABF-E24FE8315AAA@gmail.com> <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <86521313-20b4-bdaf-f60b-142b1ac08199@solarray.com> I have concerns as well, because I too have been considering the SolArk for upcoming larger designs.  I regularly expect the builders to test the system and expose any problems before the owners move in.  It should be able to run any properly operating 120 v equipment there is.  Having said that, I once had a contractor's air compressor not run on one of my systems.  It was an archaic monster belt drive thing, and when I checked it, it had a missing starting cap, and a ground fault.  So no, the inverter should not have to operate faulty equipment either. I have never had to use a balancing transformer before on any of my systems.  The Magnum 120/240 vac PAE inverters generally will run everything 120 I've ever thrown at them, have full 240 in/out, but they're rated at 1/3 the power of the Solark.  So something is definitely wrong; shutdowns are not acceptable.  I hope Solark addresses this immediately. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/3/21 10:47 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Maybe its just me but if an off grid inverter can't start up a 120 vac > compressor l might want to look elsewhere. I have the old FX inverters > start up and run massive bandsaw while homes were being built. Radians > running everything from well pumps to sewer pumps all while off grid > all without additional transformers or soft start controllers. I have > systems in Honolulu that have 5 AC multi ton units all living just > fine with two Radians and no additional transformers. Its just a > little concerning that load imbalance was not considered with this > inverter manufacture, and maybe they did. KISS! not more complicated > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021, 1:10 PM larry at starlightsolar.com > > wrote: > > Amos, > > When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, > the PSX will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter > output should stay balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel > goes to the PSX then to a sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on > the main panel. > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post > > wrote: > > We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new > off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, > except mainly power tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: > portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a > miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have > measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table > saw.  The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each.  What helps > is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the > other leg to balance the inverter’s output. > > Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets > for “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the > inverter's 240 to 120.  My understanding is this will solve the > issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into > issues with inbalance down the road...  Would be curious to know > if there’s another way to balance all of the house loads using the > PSX-240?.. > > >      Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 >  C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com > Facebook > >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com >> wrote: >> >> If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback >> PSX-240 to balance the loads? >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese >> > wrote: >> >> Good morning Wrenches, >> >> I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for >> awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat >> frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line >> imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these >> instances would be minimized with attention to detail on >> balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 >> watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster >> oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back >> up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be >> getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that >> trusted me to offer the right equipment. >> >> How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those >> that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? >> >> Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I >> have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple >> Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an >> ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service >> was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting >> and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time >> then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance >> shutdowns. >> >> There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really >> like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger >> versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may >> outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every >> couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them >> to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC >> coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” >> mode? >> >> Thanks for your time, >> Nick A Lucchese >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 02:18:42 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 23:18:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> References: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mr Hill The PW is AC coupled so any inverter but the newer the better with Freq shift capable may take programming to work best. Jerry On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 10:03 AM Jonathan Hill wrote: > So it can be used with a Sunnyboy, correct? Have you ever installed one? > > Jon Hill > Solar design engineer > 530-559-3781 > solarjon at gmail.com > > > On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  > Tesla is ac coupled you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel, > everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too. > Jerry > > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill wrote: > >> Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy >> inverters ro other string inverters? >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 06:59:38 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 05:59:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here is my two cents worth. the PW is "grid following" and so is the sunny boy when the grid is up. When the grid fails the PW becomes grid forming, bi-directional, inverter charger with frequency shift to control charging. The newer SBs will accept frequency shifts and be controlled. So yes it should work, but I have not tried this, and someone with experience should answer. On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 1:19 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Mr Hill > The PW is AC coupled so any inverter but the newer the better with Freq > shift capable may take programming to work best. > Jerry > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 10:03 AM Jonathan Hill wrote: > >> So it can be used with a Sunnyboy, correct? Have you ever installed one? >> >> Jon Hill >> Solar design engineer >> 530-559-3781 >> solarjon at gmail.com >> >> >> On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>  >> Tesla is ac coupled you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel, >> everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too. >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill wrote: >> >>> Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy >>> inverters ro other string inverters? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Feb 4 10:26:28 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 07:26:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Darryl - Yea, you have a good point. We have recently used the SMA freq/watt curtailment feature on a bigger off grid system with SMA Tripower inverters and a Tesla Powerpack. We programmed a curve into the SMA inverters so that the Powerpack can throttle SMA PV production on a smooth curve, rather than just binary on/off. We've done this with Sunny Island based systems too. I don't know about the ability of the Powerwall to do this. It's a good question. It gets tricky trying to meet the utility-approved grid tied settings while optimizing offgrid settings, especially when AC coupling different inverter manufacturers. So, we've been leaving all of our Powerwall and PV systems in the normal ongrid mode. The only real downside is that when the grid is down, and PV is producing more than the battery needs, it will just turn off, wait, and then back on over and over, rather than throttle. It is nice to have it just throttle, but not really a big deal for most applications that are primarily grid tied. I have to think manufacturers are thinking about getting that freq/watt curtailment to work across different AC coupled applications. That would be cool. That is a potential benefit of a all-one-manufacturer AC-coupled solution such as Enphase's Encharge or SunPower's new SunVault system. However, I don't know they're implementing that feature either, yet. August On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:59 AM Darryl Thayer wrote: > Here is my two cents worth. the PW is "grid following" and so is the > sunny boy when the grid is up. When the grid fails the PW becomes grid > forming, bi-directional, inverter charger with frequency shift to control > charging. The newer SBs will accept frequency shifts and be controlled. > So yes it should work, but I have not tried this, and someone with > experience should answer. > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 1:19 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Mr Hill >> The PW is AC coupled so any inverter but the newer the better with Freq >> shift capable may take programming to work best. >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 10:03 AM Jonathan Hill wrote: >> >>> So it can be used with a Sunnyboy, correct? Have you ever installed one? >>> >>> Jon Hill >>> Solar design engineer >>> 530-559-3781 >>> solarjon at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Tesla is ac coupled you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel, >>> everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too. >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy >>>> inverters ro other string inverters? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 11:22:23 2021 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 08:22:23 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid sell back time settings on Outback systems Message-ID: Hi Folks.... We have a scenario where we would like to control when our system sells power back to the grid. Basically, we only want to sell back while the sun is shining. We would like to stop selling based on programmed clock settings. I know in HBX mode we can control when we buy from the grid, wondering if anyone knows how to control if and when we sell to the grid, separate from voltage set points. In this situation we basically don't want to sell hydro power back at night. We can create our own relay controls to prevent if we need to, but hoping someone has a Mate controller based programming solution. I can't seem to find it and at first glance Outback tech support didn't have an answer...It was a new tech support guy I spoke with and he was going to do some research and get back to me. 100 Thanks! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Feb 4 11:02:14 2021 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 16:02:14 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall In-Reply-To: References: <9033E117-A30B-425C-9354-F36C9A4637AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jon – if you are installing in PG&E territory, the Sunny Boys (with CA Rule 21 settings enabled) will have freq-watt enabled, so they will reduce power linearly when the PW begins to increase frequency in backup mode as well. As Jerry mentioned, this has been a required function that must be enabled in all grid interactive PV inverters in the IOU territories of CA for a couple years now, so not unique to the Sunny Boy. Not sure how the PW moves frequency, but Rule 21 inverters will be at 0 power at least by slightly above 62Hz. The ramp is percentage of nameplate not actual production when ramp starts, so can be at zero production at lower frequency. PG&Es required freq-watt: “When system frequency exceeds 60.036 Hz, the active power output produced by the Smart Inverter shall be reduced by 50% of real power nameplate rating per hertz (5% of real power nameplate rating reduction per 0.1 hertz)” Page 196 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_RULES_21.pdf The Sunny Boy put into Offgrid mode has a linear power ramp of 100%/Hz starting at 61 Hz, so will be at zero by 62Hz as well. This freq-watt is how the Sunny Island has been intelligently throttling Sunny Boys for many years. Best – Mike From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2021 8:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall Hi Darryl - Yea, you have a good point. We have recently used the SMA freq/watt curtailment feature on a bigger off grid system with SMA Tripower inverters and a Tesla Powerpack. We programmed a curve into the SMA inverters so that the Powerpack can throttle SMA PV production on a smooth curve, rather than just binary on/off. We've done this with Sunny Island based systems too. I don't know about the ability of the Powerwall to do this. It's a good question. It gets tricky trying to meet the utility-approved grid tied settings while optimizing offgrid settings, especially when AC coupling different inverter manufacturers. So, we've been leaving all of our Powerwall and PV systems in the normal ongrid mode. The only real downside is that when the grid is down, and PV is producing more than the battery needs, it will just turn off, wait, and then back on over and over, rather than throttle. It is nice to have it just throttle, but not really a big deal for most applications that are primarily grid tied. I have to think manufacturers are thinking about getting that freq/watt curtailment to work across different AC coupled applications. That would be cool. That is a potential benefit of a all-one-manufacturer AC-coupled solution such as Enphase's Encharge or SunPower's new SunVault system. However, I don't know they're implementing that feature either, yet. August On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:59 AM Darryl Thayer > wrote: Here is my two cents worth. the PW is "grid following" and so is the sunny boy when the grid is up. When the grid fails the PW becomes grid forming, bi-directional, inverter charger with frequency shift to control charging. The newer SBs will accept frequency shifts and be controlled. So yes it should work, but I have not tried this, and someone with experience should answer. On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 1:19 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: Mr Hill The PW is AC coupled so any inverter but the newer the better with Freq shift capable may take programming to work best. Jerry On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 10:03 AM Jonathan Hill > wrote: So it can be used with a Sunnyboy, correct? Have you ever installed one? Jon Hill Solar design engineer 530-559-3781 solarjon at gmail.com On Jan 31, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote:  Tesla is ac coupled you need the tesla transfer switch and a sub panel, everything into and out of that. But its AC coupled so there is that too. Jerry On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:18 PM Jonathan Hill > wrote: Anyone have experience combining some Tesla Powerwalls with Sunnyboy inverters ro other string inverters? _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Thu Feb 4 12:54:03 2021 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 17:54:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid sell back time settings on Outback systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Kirpal Hello Wrenches This can be accomplished using the Mate3(s) and Flextime. Flextime allows up to 3 modes in a 24 hour day. Flextime uses a 24 hour clock to instruct a system to switch modes based on time. A good knowledge of the modes and how they work is helpful. Results may vary depending on solar vs loads. Below is a picture of a system set up to achieve your request. Adjust the times to suit your individual needs. The setting below are as follows 1800 to 1830 Grid Tied and sell enabled 1830 to 0700 Grid Zero (no sell and no charge from the grid) 0700 to 1800 Back Up (allowing the unit to pass through and charge) Again a good knowledge of how the modes function and the charging triggers (Re-Bulk and Re-Float) is helpful. One of the advantages is this can be done via optics so fine tuning can be accomplished by monitoring the system over time as it goes through the various sequences. [cid:image002.jpg at 01D6FADB.A76193A0] I hope this helps. Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirpal Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2021 8:22 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid sell back time settings on Outback systems Hi Folks.... We have a scenario where we would like to control when our system sells power back to the grid. Basically, we only want to sell back while the sun is shining. We would like to stop selling based on programmed clock settings. I know in HBX mode we can control when we buy from the grid, wondering if anyone knows how to control if and when we sell to the grid, separate from voltage set points. In this situation we basically don't want to sell hydro power back at night. We can create our own relay controls to prevent if we need to, but hoping someone has a Mate controller based programming solution. I can't seem to find it and at first glance Outback tech support didn't have an answer...It was a new tech support guy I spoke with and he was going to do some research and get back to me. 100 Thanks! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 25144 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 12:57:51 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 09:57:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid sell back time settings on Outback systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches, Kirpal I use the grid connection in the mate, grid use, and set the inverter to connect only at that time, its far from. Ideal but seems to do the job. I have tried the HBX but its inverse to what l wanted it to do, we are fortunate to have a Outback guy on this forum and he may chime in also Jerry On Thu, Feb 4, 2021, 8:22 AM Kirpal wrote: > Hi Folks.... > We have a scenario where we would like to control when our system sells > power back to the grid. Basically, we only want to sell back while the sun > is shining. We would like to stop selling based on programmed clock > settings. I know in HBX mode we can control when we buy from the grid, > wondering if anyone knows how to control if and when we sell to the grid, > separate from voltage set points. In this situation we basically don't > want to sell hydro power back at night. > We can create our own relay controls to prevent if we need to, but hoping > someone has a Mate controller based programming solution. I can't seem to > find it and at first glance Outback tech support didn't have an answer...It > was a new tech support guy I spoke with and he was going to do some > research and get back to me. > 100 Thanks! > > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > Oregon LRT#25 > Oregon Solarworks LLC > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-299-0402 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Thu Feb 4 13:34:51 2021 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 18:34:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? In-Reply-To: References: <2D963D39-722D-4D36-A355-C67641F1FFE8@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay Hi Larry The X240 is a 4000 watt transformer it is also available in the PSX-240 Both can be used as a step up, a step down or a balancing xfmr. Below is a link to the manuals. https://www.outbackpower.com/resources/documents/product-documentation/item/autotransformer-technical-documentation Balancing transformer is not required by the Radian or the FXR inverters. I was used in the older FX series usually as a step up/balancing Xfmr. In step up operation it allows a single inverter to be on and will provide a second ac voltage of the opposite phase. If 2 inverters L1 and L2 were present it would load balance which allowed the least used phase to contribute to the most used phase. It can still be used as step up with a single FXR inverter meaning a single unit and the X240 will provide two phases L1 and L2 with 180 degrees of phase separation. It will not work as a load balancing xfmr using the FXR inverter. With the FXR we lost the load balancing ability. What we gained was the ability to sell back in a multi inverter stacked system, the 7 modes available from the Radian and Selling with in a 3 phase 120/208 system up to a 9 inverters. I hope this helps. Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 4:45 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? Hi Larry I’m not so sure about that. The X-240 doesn’t work with the Radian or FXR versions. IE it won’t balance the loads so that the inverter sees a balance on L1/L2. It did do this for the older FX versions. Jay On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:10 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: Amos, When using it in balancing mode, as seen in the attached image, the PSX will provide 120Vac from either leg and the inverter output should stay balanced. A 240Vac circuit from the main panel goes to the PSX then to a sub panel and any 240Vac loads stay on the main panel. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 3, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Amos Post > wrote: We have had this issue with a recent installation. It’s a new off-grid house build, and so not many loads to speak of yet, except mainly power tools. The Solark 12K will not start any of: portable air compressor, table saw, and sometimes struggles with a miter saw, which are each 16amps or less at 120V, but I have measured close to 50amps start up for the air compressor and table saw. The air compressor and table saw are 1.5HP each. What helps is if the motors are warmed up, or putting another load on the other leg to balance the inverter’s output. Was thinking we would install a couple of dedicated 120V outlets for “high-current” 120V loads with a PSX-240, stepping down the inverter's 240 to 120. My understanding is this will solve the issue for starting these loads, but not sure if we might run into issues with inbalance down the road... Would be curious to know if there’s another way to balance all of the house loads using the PSX-240?.. Amos Post Integrity Energy W 802.763.7023 C 802.291.2188 ienergyVT.com Facebook On Feb 3, 2021, at 2:41 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: If it turns out to be true, could you simply add the Outback PSX-240 to balance the loads? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 3, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Nick A Lucchese > wrote: Good morning Wrenches, I’ve strongly been considering using the SolArk 12K unit for awhile but have heard from a few folks that there can be somewhat frequent issues with the inverter shutting down from line to line imbalance. As little as 1400 watts? I could see where these instances would be minimized with attention to detail on balancing all the loads but if’s as little as a delta of 1400 watts that might occur with something as innocent as a toaster oven. Seems like it would also be less of an issue in a grid back up or AC coupled scenario but for off grid I’d be bummed to be getting calls every couple weeks from an off grid client that trusted me to offer the right equipment. How much of an issue is this? Is it getting exaggerated? Those that have NOT had this happening was it on a full time off grid site? Has it happened less on sites using the "Limited to Home” mode? I have an upcoming project that was going to be setup with a couple Radians in HBX mode and my thought was perhaps it might be an ideal solution there but if the continuity of electrical service was going to be provided mainly through batteries and inverting and not through the pass through relays the majority of the time then the site might likely experience this issue with imbalance shutdowns. There are many attractive features of the SolArk and I really like the thought of taking advantage of the 185 amp DC charger versus the Radian’s 115 but I’m kind of thinking the risks may outweigh the benefits if these shutdowns occur even once every couple of months. Any of you have a long enough history with them to chime in with your observations? Are they most reliable for AC coupled with backup rather than off grid or the “Limited to Home” mode? Thanks for your time, Nick A Lucchese _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Thu Feb 4 14:49:25 2021 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 19:49:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> Dear All, I apologize for letting this conversation get a little stale before being able to comment further. Before I reply, I would like to say I don't believe MLSD has anything to do with firefighter safety.  If being on dangerous roofs was really a concern, steep roofs, slate roofs, metal roof, wet metal or shake roofs and snow on roofs would get the same kind of scrutiny as solar on roofs.  I can only guess and think that some HUGE solar hating utility company devised this whole firefighter safety thing.  It is also my understanding none of the string inverter folk turned up to the code development meetings where MLSD was determined and you can guess who was.    But much of this is only rumor and the dark thoughts of a solar bozo. I HATE the hassle and maintenance issues of MLSD.  I loved string inverters and hated to see them go.  So far as I can tell the US is the only place on planet Earth to make String inverters all but illegal.  This said... a picture is worth a thousand words.  All of the attached photos of systems had the wire management done very well.  If you look at the metal roof photo you can see a small hole in it from the arc.  I have many more photos of different squirrel damaged systems.  Ground Fault protection has saved the inverters, but not the roofs. I don't really like the idea of squirrel guards.  It seems like I may be creating another problem down the road that I can't really imagine.  Debris build up could be an issue.  Rainwater could back up from a damn and get under shingles and into the cavity of the house.  For me the easiest thing that could be done is for some kind of a bittering agent to be part of the wires so that one little lick would send a critter looking for a better food source. Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man, https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0Fire 2.JPG | | | | | | | | | | | Fire 2.JPG Shared with Dropbox | | | https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0Fire 3.JPG | | | | | | | | | | | Fire 3.JPG Shared with Dropbox | | | Fire 4.JPG | | | | | | | | | | | Fire 4.JPG Shared with Dropbox | | | Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg | | | | | | | | | | | Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg Shared with Dropbox | | | Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG | | | | | | | | | | | Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG Shared with Dropbox | | | Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG | | | | | | | | | | | Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG Shared with Dropbox | | |  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Friday, January 29, 2021, 8:15:28 PM PST, Ray wrote: I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single conductor cables to run unprotected? outdoors?  All because the module manus and industry in general has made no effort, zero, to accommodate any type of electrical industry standard K/Os for conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff BTW).   If we hadn't gone this wacky direction, starting about 15 years ago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would be much less reason for MLSD. I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole quick connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each module. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/29/21 8:10 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: There’s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years. In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails. However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there’s always that one loop of wire hanging in the open. I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box. I’m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I’m thinking of squirrels and ice dams. Why can’t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it? Maybe I’m just being naive. Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Thu Feb 4 15:13:22 2021 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 12:13:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace DR inverter fan Message-ID: I have a client whose Trace DR 1524 inverter (yes, it's an old system) fan is running constantly. I haven't been to the site (3 hour drive, 1 hour boat ride) but I am guessing that it's a failure of a temperature sensor. Does anyone have experience with something like this? Eric Smiley, MASc Project Manager, North Island E: eric at vecoop.ca T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) C: 250-703-6004 W: viridianenergy.ca RENEWABLE POWER NOW -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu Feb 4 15:39:26 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 15:39:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load imbalance issues with SolArk? References: <0986056F-F97D-4A1F-8C6B-A199AD2C54EE@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <53D00767-05E4-4D4C-8CF9-8FB0451502C0@sunwindpowerinc.com> This issue makes SolArk a non-starter (pun intended) for us. I am not a bit interested in trying to resolve simple issues (like running a 120V table saw - come on!) that should be taken care of before a product is released for sale. Like a lot of places, it looks like net metering is pretty much going away here which means a lot more storage based systems down the road. Based on what I’m reading lately from you guys, the manufacturers have a long long way to go to making these systems perform properly. Most of our customers want whole house back up and they don’t want to manage loads. We compete against a bunch of electricians that are hocking whole house gensets for a few grand, so why would anyone want a more complicated more expensive back up solution. I for one do not want to place my customers in the position of being a test bed for these systems and I sure don’t want to deal with the legal/financial results of a non or semi functional system that isn’t properly engineered. We’ve done a decent amount of DC coupled lead acid off grid/gen and “off grid”/gen/net metered for the last 15 years without any problems - these systems are running well pumps, 5 ton AC units, full wood working shops, you name it. Schneider, Outback, and Magnum have all been able to handle these loads without blinking. After reading glowing reviews about Solark on this forum, I had been seriously considering trying out SolArk on an upcoming large system - not now. I don’t know, it just seems crazy to me to have to put in an autoformer on an 8kW, supposedly balanced, inverter. I’ll think pass. My days of providing free field tech support to solar manufacturers are over. This industry is old enough and large enough now to put that paradigm to rest. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 Vice President MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 16:45:00 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:45:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace DR inverter fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might consider taking a loaner inverter with you, l have had the SW and DR inverters have calibration failures not just sensor failures, if you are getting a boat ride, corrosion is a good possibility so again bring a loaner OB 2524 or maybe he may want to buy it anyway. Jerry On Thu, Feb 4, 2021, 12:13 PM Eric Smiley wrote: > I have a client whose Trace DR 1524 inverter (yes, it's an old system) fan > is running constantly. > I haven't been to the site (3 hour drive, 1 hour boat ride) but I am > guessing that it's a failure of a temperature sensor. > Does anyone have experience with something like this? > > Eric Smiley, MASc > > Project Manager, North Island > > E: eric at vecoop.ca > > T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) > > C: 250-703-6004 > > W: viridianenergy.ca > > > > RENEWABLE POWER NOW > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 4 17:50:29 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2021 14:50:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Victron Message-ID: <88687903b1939be16b61674fac644130@127.0.0.1> Can you folks tell me if Victron is UL listed for a Grid application and can it easily work split phased? Thank-you ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Feb 4 18:20:47 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 18:20:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace DR inverter fan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <243A6B05-10DB-4519-A1D2-A2023AD60AB4@swnl.net> Sounds like the thermistor is bad. Kris @ Tekris power 732 938-4996. To heck w/ the thermistor bring em a new inverter! > On Feb 4, 2021, at 4:45 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I might consider taking a loaner inverter with you, l have had the SW and DR inverters have calibration failures not just sensor failures, if you are getting a boat ride, corrosion is a good possibility so again bring a loaner OB 2524 or maybe he may want to buy it anyway. > Jerry > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2021, 12:13 PM Eric Smiley > wrote: > I have a client whose Trace DR 1524 inverter (yes, it's an old system) fan is running constantly. > I haven't been to the site (3 hour drive, 1 hour boat ride) but I am guessing that it's a failure of a temperature sensor. > Does anyone have experience with something like this? > > Eric Smiley, MASc > Project Manager, North Island > > E: eric at vecoop.ca > T: 1-888-386-0116 ext 702 (toll free) > C: 250-703-6004 > W: viridianenergy.ca > > RENEWABLE POWER NOW > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 07:42:54 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 08:42:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid sell back time settings on Outback systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you don't need a grid connection at other times, I have implemented a solution using a Raspberry Pi, reading the data using XML from the Mate3 and parsing the values, and opening and closing a relay which control a contactor. I used SOC as my guide, that's probably the most important value, but you can also use voltage. If you know a little programming it is easy to implement. Let me know if you want any guidance. On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 1:58 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches, Kirpal > I use the grid connection in the mate, grid use, and set the inverter to > connect only at that time, its far from. Ideal but seems to do the job. I > have tried the HBX but its inverse to what l wanted it to do, we are > fortunate to have a Outback guy on this forum and he may chime in also > Jerry > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2021, 8:22 AM Kirpal wrote: > >> Hi Folks.... >> We have a scenario where we would like to control when our system sells >> power back to the grid. Basically, we only want to sell back while the sun >> is shining. We would like to stop selling based on programmed clock >> settings. I know in HBX mode we can control when we buy from the grid, >> wondering if anyone knows how to control if and when we sell to the grid, >> separate from voltage set points. In this situation we basically don't >> want to sell hydro power back at night. >> We can create our own relay controls to prevent if we need to, but hoping >> someone has a Mate controller based programming solution. I can't seem to >> find it and at first glance Outback tech support didn't have an answer...It >> was a new tech support guy I spoke with and he was going to do some >> research and get back to me. >> 100 Thanks! >> >> Sunny Regards, >> Kirpal Khalsa >> Oregon LRT#25 >> Oregon Solarworks LLC >> www.oregonsolarworks.com >> 541-299-0402 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roberto.kruse at heliotek.solar Fri Feb 5 11:20:43 2021 From: roberto.kruse at heliotek.solar (Roberto Kruse) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 10:20:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Victron In-Reply-To: <88687903b1939be16b61674fac644130@127.0.0.1> References: <88687903b1939be16b61674fac644130@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hi Dave. Victron has a 3kVA UL listed inverter. It can easily work in split phase (120/240V) or three phase (120/208V). I have been told that they are working on UL listing other models. Regards, Roberto Kruse Heliotek El jue, 4 feb 2021 a las 16:50, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar (< offgridsolar at sti.net>) escribió: > Can you folks tell me if Victron is UL listed for a Grid application and > can it easily work split phased? > > Thank-you ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 11:37:02 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 09:37:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: HI Andrew, I’ve been pondering your comments, and I hope you can elaborate on why you don’t think MLPE has anything to do with firefighter safety? And I guess I lump into the firefighter safety, homeowner safety as well. As to the code meeting. I have it on pretty good info that a very senior member of the the NEC was pushing MLPE. It is true that the string inverter OEM’s pushed back hard and that is why for the first time(?) a code rule had a 2 year delay in implantation of the NEC 2017. Thanks jay peltz power > On Feb 4, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: > > Dear All, > > I apologize for letting this conversation get a little stale before being able to comment further. > > Before I reply, I would like to say I don't believe MLSD has anything to do with firefighter safety. If being on dangerous roofs was really a concern, steep roofs, slate roofs, metal roof, wet metal or shake roofs and snow on roofs would get the same kind of scrutiny as solar on roofs. I can only guess and think that some HUGE solar hating utility company devised this whole firefighter safety thing. It is also my understanding none of the string inverter folk turned up to the code development meetings where MLSD was determined and you can guess who was. But much of this is only rumor and the dark thoughts of a solar bozo. > > I HATE the hassle and maintenance issues of MLSD. I loved string inverters and hated to see them go. So far as I can tell the US is the only place on planet Earth to make String inverters all but illegal. This said... a picture is worth a thousand words. All of the attached photos of systems had the wire management done very well. If you look at the metal roof photo you can see a small hole in it from the arc. I have many more photos of different squirrel damaged systems. Ground Fault protection has saved the inverters, but not the roofs. > > I don't really like the idea of squirrel guards. It seems like I may be creating another problem down the road that I can't really imagine. Debris build up could be an issue. Rainwater could back up from a damn and get under shingles and into the cavity of the house. For me the easiest thing that could be done is for some kind of a bittering agent to be part of the wires so that one little lick would send a critter looking for a better food source. > > Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man, > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 > Fire 2.JPG > > > Fire 2.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 > Fire 3.JPG > > > Fire 3.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > Fire 4.JPG > > > Fire 4.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg > > > Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg > Shared with Dropbox > > Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG > > > Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG > > > Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > President > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > The BRIGHT CHOICE > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > 503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 8:15:28 PM PST, Ray wrote: > > > I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single conductor cables to run unprotected? outdoors? All because the module manus and industry in general has made no effort, zero, to accommodate any type of electrical industry standard K/Os for conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff BTW). If we hadn't gone this wacky direction, starting about 15 years ago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would be much less reason for MLSD. > > I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole quick connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each module. > > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 1/29/21 8:10 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: >> There’s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years. >> >> In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails. >> >> However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there’s always that one loop of wire hanging in the open. >> >> I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box. >> >> I’m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I’m thinking of squirrels and ice dams. >> >> Why can’t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it? >> >> Maybe I’m just being naive. >> >> Hilton >> >> Hilton Dier III >> Renewable Energy Design >> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Fri Feb 5 17:40:42 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 17:40:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just saw this and thought it worth sharing Message-ID: <47B89DB0-7015-4DE7-9D3B-FDCE0C2C66ED@sunwindpowerinc.com> Very interesting video, now I know Fronius is pointing fingers at Micro manufacturers but the demo seems to back up their proposal to scrap the 80V limit. This is yet another reason we haven’t used many Micro’s on our systems. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3c9GbLhQhY&t=4s Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 5 18:32:45 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 15:32:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just saw this and thought it worth sharing In-Reply-To: <47B89DB0-7015-4DE7-9D3B-FDCE0C2C66ED@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <47B89DB0-7015-4DE7-9D3B-FDCE0C2C66ED@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <527ad323c6249920293e2e325679431b@127.0.0.1> That was a good vid. Made me happy that there might be more string inverters again. I kind of miss replacing false tripped AFCI's up here in the mountains. Not a bad job either ! No roof to go up on, up front payment because installers do not want to come up here into the rurals, or they have gone out of business. Electronics on a roof, including panels never seemed the way to go. Offgrid is a small part of the pie. Our county is starting to require that the grid ground mounts have less than 4" of height of grass under an array. For offgrid it is bare earth under an array from when it turns brown in late April/May. The Utility PG ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 17:40:42 -0500, Jeremy Coxon wrote: Very interesting video, now I know Fronius is pointing fingers at Micro manufacturers but the demo seems to back up their proposal to scrap the 80V limit. This is yet another reason we haven't used many Micro's on our systems. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3c9GbLhQhY&t=4s [3] Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3c9GbLhQhY&t=4s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aawrench.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 132933 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 5 18:16:51 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2021 18:16:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Just saw this and thought it worth sharing In-Reply-To: <47B89DB0-7015-4DE7-9D3B-FDCE0C2C66ED@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <47B89DB0-7015-4DE7-9D3B-FDCE0C2C66ED@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Here is Enphase's answer (or maybe Fronius was answering Enphase): https://enphase.com/en-us/support/arc-fault-demonstration Also, their literature suggests that the risk of a DC arc fault occuring is far lower due to there being much less DC cabling exposed on the roof. With no long DC home runs, that would obviously lower the probability of an occurrence. I see where they are coming from, but we're talking about severity here, not probability. I have seen a few melted MC4 connectors at the panel to microinverter connection. The results seem to support Enphase's video where the arc is small and possibly intermittent, melting a hole in the connector housing, but falling short of an exposed flame. I think there is a twofold response that a microinverter manufacturer would make. The probability of DC Arc fault is reduced and severity is lower. That's a strong argument. Is anyone aware of a significant fire in a microinverter system caused by a DC arc fault? I assume there are anecdotes out there, but I haven't heard of any. On the flip side, I've seen some pretty gnarled DC conductor bundles melted together on string inverter systems with burned modules above them. That said, I would probably support more safety on the DC side of microinverters. If AC modules weren't so darn expensive, I'd probably go that direction. If PV DC leads were shorter I'd probably mount microinverters to module frames. If integrated AFCI was available on microinverters at a reasonable cost, that would be great. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Feb 5, 2021, 5:40 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > Very interesting video, now I know Fronius is pointing fingers at Micro > manufacturers but the demo seems to back up their proposal to scrap the 80V > limit. This is yet another reason we haven’t used many Micro’s on our > systems. > > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3c9GbLhQhY&t=4s > > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Sat Feb 6 15:30:05 2021 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 13:30:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Victron Message-ID: Hello, Mechanix~ Dave Angelini had asked "if Victron is UL listed for a Grid application...?" I agree with Roberto Kruse that there's one Victron inverter/charger with a UL listing nowadays: the 24v MultiPlus rated 3KVA per unit. Some of the Victron charge controllers are also UL listed. However, "selling into the grid" is not supported by Victron in the US for now. To verify that, today I clicked the "Grid" tab in Victron's "VE Configure 3" software (which updates every time it is launched). A dozen or more "country codes" (aka grid code standards) can be selected in a drop-down but the US is not among those as of 2-6-2021. Dave had also asked, "can it easily work split phased?" To configure for 120/240 US power in the Victron platform, first one must buy Victron's USB converter dongle, pairs of identical inverter/chargers (from among the "120 volt" models), and some standard Cat5 cables. The firmware should be updated if the units are not already identical, then another piece of (free downloadable) Windows software is used to set up the phasing. I've never had a train wreck with the Victron software so far. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Feb 6 16:52:35 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 13:52:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Victron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8fb37370a6613bc69b5309246d419e02@127.0.0.1> Thanks Everyone. I already can get a Radian or XW that out of the box works 48V and 7 or 8 KW . I was asking for a friend. Appreciate the advice and did not want him to get into making a mistake. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 13:30:05 -0700, Mick Abraham wrote: Hello, Mechanix~ Dave Angelini had asked "if Victron is UL listed for a Grid application...?" I agree with Roberto Kruse that there's one Victron inverter/charger with a UL listing nowadays: the 24v MultiPlus rated 3KVA per unit. Some of the Victron charge controllers are also UL listed. However, "selling into the grid" is not supported by Victron in the US for now. To verify that, today I clicked the "Grid" tab in Victron's "VE Configure 3" software (which updates every time it is launched). A dozen or more "country codes" (aka grid code standards) can be selected in a drop-down but the US is not among those as of 2-6-2021. Dave had also asked, "can it easily work split phased?" To configure for 120/240 US power in the Victron platform, first one must buy Victron's USB converter dongle, pairs of identical inverter/chargers (from among the "120 volt" models), and some standard Cat5 cables. The firmware should be updated if the units are not already identical, then another piece of (free downloadable) Windows software is used to set up the phasing. I've never had a train wreck with the Victron software so far. The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com [3] Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.abrahamsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Feb 6 23:38:54 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 20:38:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man: I read this email below several times and looked carefully through all of the photographs. I could not let this message go without comment. See below: The pictures make exactly the case you are arguing against. Extinguishing this fire in the daytime without MLSD would be much more dangerous than with MLSD. Your logic that you don’t like squirrel guards also makes no sense because squirrel guards, if installed properly, would have prevented this event absolutely. Furthermore, I don’t accept the argument that roofs can be dangerous so let’s not bother doing anything to try and make them a bit less dangerous. What also makes no sense is the adoption of MLSD requirements is some kind of conspiracy. You offer that as a rumor without any evidence to the contrary. Letting that go without comment serves to infer that some of us on this forum might agree with the assertion. That is how conspiracy theories thrive. I need facts, not conjecture. I imagine others here might agree. Seatbelts are a hassle. Fall protection harnesses are a hassle. Safety procedures in general are a hassle. That is no reason to blow them off. I try to adapt and get proficient at the procedures so they are a bit less of a hassle and then enjoy the reduction in workplace hazards that those procedures provide. All in all, the entire logic you present makes no sense. No disrespect intended. Most Sincerely, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Solar Energy Solutions *Sent:* Thursday, February 4, 2021 11:49 AM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown Dear All, I apologize for letting this conversation get a little stale before being able to comment further. Before I reply, I would like to say I don't believe MLSD has anything to do with firefighter safety. If being on dangerous roofs was really a concern, steep roofs, slate roofs, metal roof, wet metal or shake roofs and snow on roofs would get the same kind of scrutiny as solar on roofs. I can only guess and think that some HUGE solar hating utility company devised this whole firefighter safety thing. It is also my understanding none of the string inverter folk turned up to the code development meetings where MLSD was determined and you can guess who was. But much of this is only rumor and the dark thoughts of a solar bozo. I HATE the hassle and maintenance issues of MLSD. I loved string inverters and hated to see them go. So far as I can tell the US is the only place on planet Earth to make String inverters all but illegal. This said... a picture is worth a thousand words. All of the attached photos of systems had the wire management done very well. If you look at the metal roof photo you can see a small hole in it from the arc. I have many more photos of different squirrel damaged systems. Ground Fault protection has saved the inverters, but not the roofs. I don't really like the idea of squirrel guards. It seems like I may be creating another problem down the road that I can't really imagine. Debris build up could be an issue. Rainwater could back up from a damn and get under shingles and into the cavity of the house. For me the easiest thing that could be done is for some kind of a bittering agent to be part of the wires so that one little lick would send a critter looking for a better food source. Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man, https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 Fire 2.JPG [image: Text Box:] Fire 2.JPG Shared with Dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 Fire 3.JPG [image: Text Box:] Fire 3.JPG Shared with Dropbox Fire 4.JPG [image: Text Box:] Fire 4.JPG Shared with Dropbox Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg [image: Text Box:] Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg Shared with Dropbox Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG [image: Text Box:] Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG Shared with Dropbox Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG [image: Text Box:] Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG Shared with Dropbox *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* *President* *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* *Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighborsmove towards an environmentally sustainable future.* *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com * On Friday, January 29, 2021, 8:15:28 PM PST, Ray wrote: I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single conductor cables to run unprotected? outdoors? All because the module manus and industry in general has made no effort, zero, to accommodate any type of electrical industry standard K/Os for conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff BTW). If we hadn't gone this wacky direction, starting about 15 years ago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would be much less reason for MLSD. I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole quick connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each module. [image: Teck 90 Armoured Power & Control Cable 600V CSA FT4 HL ...][image: Llt M10 Bayonet Lock Molding Waterproof Cable 2 Pole ...] Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 1/29/21 8:10 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: There’s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years. In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails. However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there’s always that one loop of wire hanging in the open. I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box. I’m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I’m thinking of squirrels and ice dams. Why can’t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it? Maybe I’m just being naive. Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26414 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27448 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Sun Feb 7 12:57:05 2021 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (SES) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 09:57:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown References: <0388F6B8-9BA8-49EE-850E-B7F4AEDF6652.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0388F6B8-9BA8-49EE-850E-B7F4AEDF6652@yahoo.com> Dear Wiliam and all, I am a strong proponent for MLSD. Smiles, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Feb 6, 2021, at 8:38 PM, William Miller wrote: > Dear Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man: > > I read this email below several times and looked carefully through all of the photographs. I could not let this message go without comment. See below: > > The pictures make exactly the case you are arguing against. Extinguishing this fire in the daytime without MLSD would be much more dangerous than with MLSD. > > Your logic that you don’t like squirrel guards also makes no sense because squirrel guards, if installed properly, would have prevented this event absolutely. > > Furthermore, I don’t accept the argument that roofs can be dangerous so let’s not bother doing anything to try and make them a bit less dangerous. > > What also makes no sense is the adoption of MLSD requirements is some kind of conspiracy. You offer that as a rumor without any evidence to the contrary. Letting that go without comment serves to infer that some of us on this forum might agree with the assertion. That is how conspiracy theories thrive. I need facts, not conjecture. I imagine others here might agree. > > Seatbelts are a hassle. Fall protection harnesses are a hassle. Safety procedures in general are a hassle. That is no reason to blow them off. I try to adapt and get proficient at the procedures so they are a bit less of a hassle and then enjoy the reduction in workplace hazards that those procedures provide. > > All in all, the entire logic you present makes no sense. No disrespect intended. > > Most Sincerely, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Solar Energy Solutions > Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2021 11:49 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown > > Dear All, > > I apologize for letting this conversation get a little stale before being able to comment further. > > Before I reply, I would like to say I don't believe MLSD has anything to do with firefighter safety. If being on dangerous roofs was really a concern, steep roofs, slate roofs, metal roof, wet metal or shake roofs and snow on roofs would get the same kind of scrutiny as solar on roofs. I can only guess and think that some HUGE solar hating utility company devised this whole firefighter safety thing. It is also my understanding none of the string inverter folk turned up to the code development meetings where MLSD was determined and you can guess who was. But much of this is only rumor and the dark thoughts of a solar bozo. > > I HATE the hassle and maintenance issues of MLSD. I loved string inverters and hated to see them go. So far as I can tell the US is the only place on planet Earth to make String inverters all but illegal. This said... a picture is worth a thousand words. All of the attached photos of systems had the wire management done very well. If you look at the metal roof photo you can see a small hole in it from the arc. I have many more photos of different squirrel damaged systems. Ground Fault protection has saved the inverters, but not the roofs. > > I don't really like the idea of squirrel guards. It seems like I may be creating another problem down the road that I can't really imagine. Debris build up could be an issue. Rainwater could back up from a damn and get under shingles and into the cavity of the house. For me the easiest thing that could be done is for some kind of a bittering agent to be part of the wires so that one little lick would send a critter looking for a better food source. > > Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man, > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 > Fire 2.JPG > > > > > > > Fire 2.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 > Fire 3.JPG > > > > > > > Fire 3.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > Fire 4.JPG > > > > > > > Fire 4.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg > > > > > > > Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg > Shared with Dropbox > Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG > > > > > > > Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG > > > > > > > Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > > Andrew Koyaanisqatsi > President > Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. > The BRIGHT CHOICE > Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors > move towards an environmentally sustainable future. > 503-238-4502 > www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 8:15:28 PM PST, Ray wrote: > > > I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single conductor cables to run unprotected? outdoors? All because the module manus and industry in general has made no effort, zero, to accommodate any type of electrical industry standard K/Os for conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff BTW). If we hadn't gone this wacky direction, starting about 15 years ago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would be much less reason for MLSD. > > I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole quick connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each module. > > > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 1/29/21 8:10 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: > There’s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years. > > In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails. > > However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there’s always that one loop of wire hanging in the open. > > I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box. > > I’m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I’m thinking of squirrels and ice dams. > > Why can’t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it? > > Maybe I’m just being naive. > > Hilton > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 12:37:14 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 10:37:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Hi All, I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with solar option. There seem to be two basic types. Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such as Emporia Vue. Which can do 16 circuits. Or ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense. I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say that it never seems to learn many of their appliances. Of course prices range from little to a lot. Any recommendations from the gallery? thx Jay peltz power From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Feb 7 13:18:55 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 08:18:55 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: eGauge. On Sunday, February 7, 2021, jay wrote: > Hi All, > > I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with > solar option. > > There seem to be two basic types. > > Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such > as Emporia Vue. Which can do 16 circuits. > > Or > > ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense. > > I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say > that it never seems to learn many of their appliances. > > > Of course prices range from little to a lot. > > Any recommendations from the gallery? > > thx > > Jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 13:49:59 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 11:49:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay; I'm happy with the Emporia system, there's no hassle with the software trying to "learn" anything. I just installed one on an existing PV system that had 2 string inverter arrays, and 1 microinverter array added later. Each array had its own PV breaker in a PV subpanel, so it was really simple to clip a CT on each array in the sub panel, and locate the Main CTs and HVAC etc CTs in the main panel with the Wifi transmitter. I just had to make up 3 x 1/8" phone plug extension cords to run from the PV subpanel to the wifi box in the main panel. I like how we can now monitor each PV array individually, the mains, plus a bunch of appliances. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 > On Sunday, February 7, 2021, jay wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with >> solar option. >> >> There seem to be two basic types. >> >> Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such >> as Emporia Vue. Which can do 16 circuits. >> >> Or >> >> ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense. >> >> I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say >> that it never seems to learn many of their appliances. >> >> >> Of course prices range from little to a lot. >> >> Any recommendations from the gallery? >> >> thx >> >> Jay >> >> peltz power >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 14:25:38 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 11:25:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Eguage makes a great product, its not the cheapest as you get what you pay for, Jerry On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 10:28 AM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > eGauge. > > On Sunday, February 7, 2021, jay wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with >> solar option. >> >> There seem to be two basic types. >> >> Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such >> as Emporia Vue. Which can do 16 circuits. >> >> Or >> >> ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense. >> >> I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say >> that it never seems to learn many of their appliances. >> >> >> Of course prices range from little to a lot. >> >> Any recommendations from the gallery? >> >> thx >> >> Jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 7 16:27:21 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 16:27:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sense is great. It does take a long time to learn appliances. Over a year in and mine at home is still learning some loads. But it picked up the big ones within a few months. Immediately you can see real time granular load data and you can easily surmise what the larger loads are. I was able to take action from day 1 to identify major drivers of my electricity use. It also saved my septic pump. It was running 24/7 due to a faulty float switch. I caught it after about 2 days when it alerted me that the device was using more energy than usual. Because my pump didn't burn up the Sense monitor paid for itself. The only downside I see aside from the learning delay is that there isn't a robust data export function. The whole web interface is a bit wonky. But the app is pretty intuitive, gorgeous, and insightful. I'm guessing it sends a lot of data to the web, so it might not be suitable for satellite internet for those far off-grid locations. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 1:17 PM jay wrote: > Hi All, > > I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with > solar option. > > There seem to be two basic types. > > Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such > as Emporia Vue. Which can do 16 circuits. > > Or > > ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense. > > I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say > that it never seems to learn many of their appliances. > > > Of course prices range from little to a lot. > > Any recommendations from the gallery? > > thx > > Jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 7 16:28:24 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 16:28:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I should also mention.... Dead simple installation. On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 4:27 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Sense is great. It does take a long time to learn appliances. Over a year > in and mine at home is still learning some loads. But it picked up the big > ones within a few months. Immediately you can see real time granular load > data and you can easily surmise what the larger loads are. I was able to > take action from day 1 to identify major drivers of my electricity use. > > It also saved my septic pump. It was running 24/7 due to a faulty float > switch. I caught it after about 2 days when it alerted me that the device > was using more energy than usual. Because my pump didn't burn up the Sense > monitor paid for itself. > > The only downside I see aside from the learning delay is that there isn't > a robust data export function. The whole web interface is a bit wonky. But > the app is pretty intuitive, gorgeous, and insightful. > > I'm guessing it sends a lot of data to the web, so it might not be > suitable for satellite internet for those far off-grid locations. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 1:17 PM jay wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with >> solar option. >> >> There seem to be two basic types. >> >> Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such >> as Emporia Vue. Which can do 16 circuits. >> >> Or >> >> ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense. >> >> I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say >> that it never seems to learn many of their appliances. >> >> >> Of course prices range from little to a lot. >> >> Any recommendations from the gallery? >> >> thx >> >> Jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:37:27 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 18:37:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I love the egauge, but I have used Curb effectively. I now need a multi unit metering solution, for six apartments. Has anyone found an all electronic system? On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 5:59 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I should also mention.... Dead simple installation. > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 4:27 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Sense is great. It does take a long time to learn appliances. Over a year >> in and mine at home is still learning some loads. But it picked up the big >> ones within a few months. Immediately you can see real time granular load >> data and you can easily surmise what the larger loads are. I was able to >> take action from day 1 to identify major drivers of my electricity use. >> >> It also saved my septic pump. It was running 24/7 due to a faulty float >> switch. I caught it after about 2 days when it alerted me that the device >> was using more energy than usual. Because my pump didn't burn up the Sense >> monitor paid for itself. >> >> The only downside I see aside from the learning delay is that there isn't >> a robust data export function. The whole web interface is a bit wonky. But >> the app is pretty intuitive, gorgeous, and insightful. >> >> I'm guessing it sends a lot of data to the web, so it might not be >> suitable for satellite internet for those far off-grid locations. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 1:17 PM jay wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with >>> solar option. >>> >>> There seem to be two basic types. >>> >>> Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits >>> such as Emporia Vue. Which can do 16 circuits. >>> >>> Or >>> >>> ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense. >>> >>> I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people >>> say that it never seems to learn many of their appliances. >>> >>> >>> Of course prices range from little to a lot. >>> >>> Any recommendations from the gallery? >>> >>> thx >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Feb 8 09:11:33 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:11:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5cbffa88-672c-bb54-21a0-fd2e38129887@entech-engineering.com> This is based upon my experience over the last five years.   I think there are a lot of installers who have mentioned EGauge.  It certainly can do a lot and the support historically has been very good.  Chris On 2/7/2021 12:37 PM, jay wrote: > Hi All, > > I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with solar option. > > There seem to be two basic types. > > Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such as Emporia Vue. Which can do 16 circuits. > > Or > > ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense. > > I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say that it never seems to learn many of their appliances. > > > Of course prices range from little to a lot. > > Any recommendations from the gallery? > > thx > > Jay > > peltz power > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Feb 8 11:07:46 2021 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 09:07:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors In-Reply-To: <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: At my home I have an Iotawatt installed in my main panel. It has multiple inputs for CTs so individual home circuits can be monitored but I personally just use two CTs for my mains and one for my solar output. The installation of the physical equipment is extremely simple for anyone comfortable in an electrical panel but the software side of things is geared more toward the tinkerer and less toward the plug-n-play crowd. For those savvy with a little bit of programming the Iotawatt can be paired with a database such as InfluxDB that can output some of the nicest looking graphs and charts I've seen in any commercially available product using Grafana. https://iotawatt.com/ Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager m. (406) 249-6841 | o. (406) 551-6135 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Mon Feb 8 14:58:47 2021 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 11:58:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] News About EnergyToolbase? In-Reply-To: References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> <4d44fbe3658b8b3b6f6eeffc24e39704@mail.gmail.com> <911A9A1E-FF1C-4783-866C-169A81249B1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <905751642.314329.1612814327924@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 9 00:24:02 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 21:24:02 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level Message-ID: Friends: Here is a conundrum I have often pondered. Maybe someone can solve this for me: Flooded cell O&M manuals instruct not to top off battery electrolyte levels before equalizing. They also instruct to check SG before adding water. Imagine two identical cells, one low on water, but above the moss-guard, and one at the recommended level. You equalize the array and then check the SG on both. I am imagining that if the cells were equivalent in capacity, they have the same amount of acid. However if one has less water, it has a higher ratio of acid to water, therefore it will read higher in SG. If the above is true, it is not accurate to compare the SG in cells unless the water level is equal, or close to. If you were to add distilled water to the cell that was low, the water would not immediately mix thoroughly. Then to accurately compare SG, you need to wait some time after watering and you would need to be somewhat accurate in keeping all cells at the same water level. How long would this be? Checking SG is but one part of flooded cell maintenance. My monthly procedure is this: 1. Check to see if water is above moss-guard on all cells. (I sometime skip this if I am confident the cells historically do not dry out in one month.) 2. Initiate an EQ charge cycle. 3. Shortly after the EQ cycle, check and record SG in all cells. 4. Re-water batteries to correct level. The above takes long enough. If I have to add water and let it mix before I test SG, the process takes even longer. Nonetheless, I want accurate results. My advice to clients and actions taken are dependent on these readings. Anyone have any wisdom to pour in? I am going to experiment to see what I can learn. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 08:13:15 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:13:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, It certainly is possible I've missed something, but I've never seen any references to not eating batteries before equalizing. If anything, there is statements saying make sure to check levels before equalizing. I'm not sure why you wouldn't bring levels up before equalizing... Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 2:05 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > Here is a conundrum I have often pondered. Maybe someone can solve this > for me: > > > > Flooded cell O&M manuals instruct not to top off battery electrolyte > levels before equalizing. They also instruct to check SG before adding > water. > > > > Imagine two identical cells, one low on water, but above the moss-guard, > and one at the recommended level. You equalize the array and then check > the SG on both. > > > > I am imagining that if the cells were equivalent in capacity, they have > the same amount of acid. However if one has less water, it has a higher > ratio of acid to water, therefore it will read higher in SG. If the above > is true, it is not accurate to compare the SG in cells unless the water > level is equal, or close to. > > > > If you were to add distilled water to the cell that was low, the water > would not immediately mix thoroughly. Then to accurately compare SG, you > need to wait some time after watering and you would need to be somewhat > accurate in keeping all cells at the same water level. How long would this > be? > > > > Checking SG is but one part of flooded cell maintenance. My monthly > procedure is this: > > > > 1. Check to see if water is above moss-guard on all cells. (I sometime > skip this if I am confident the cells historically do not dry out in one > month.) > > 2. Initiate an EQ charge cycle. > > 3. Shortly after the EQ cycle, check and record SG in all cells. > > 4. Re-water batteries to correct level. > > > > The above takes long enough. If I have to add water and let it mix before > I test SG, the process takes even longer. Nonetheless, I want accurate > results. My advice to clients and actions taken are dependent on these > readings. > > > > Anyone have any wisdom to pour in? I am going to experiment to see what I > can learn. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue Feb 9 08:36:39 2021 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> My Rolls manual says: "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the equalization. This is to assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 08:52:43 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 06:52:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Hi william My experience shows me that first filling with water to normal full mark and then eq provides the best results Many years ago I had my own battery bank that needed an eq. Newer batteries well maintained They were low on water but within the normal range. After 2 eq the sg were not moving as much as I expected. After filling and giving it a few days of normal charging to mix I eq again and the numbers came out perfectly. Every battery I’ve done this technique with has worked well. It was explained this way to me. With less water you have higher acid ratio meaning you need a higher charge voltage to eq making it harder to achieve. Higher voltages create higher heat causing more damage to the battery. Jay Peltz Power > On Feb 9, 2021, at 6:36 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > My Rolls manual says: > > "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the equalization. This is to > assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 09:06:55 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 07:06:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues Message-ID: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E@gmail.com> It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air compressor I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn’t mention if there is a fix coming. I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. Jay Peltz power. From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 9 10:32:32 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:32:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: I think the instructions to "not add water before EQing" are just that the fluid levels will rise as the batteries come to full charge, so you don't want to end up with over filled cells.  I would advise to just fill all the cells to at least a 1/4 to 1/2" over the moss plates, but to be a 1/4" to 1/2" below the bottom of the filler tubes. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/9/21 8:52 AM, Jay wrote: > Hi william > > My experience shows me that first filling with water to normal full mark and then eq provides the best results > > Many years ago I had my own battery bank that needed an eq. Newer batteries well maintained They were low on water but within the normal range. After 2 eq the sg were not moving as much as I expected. > > After filling and giving it a few days of normal charging to mix I eq again and the numbers came out perfectly. Every battery I’ve done this technique with has worked well. > > It was explained this way to me. > With less water you have higher acid ratio meaning you need a higher charge voltage to eq making it harder to achieve. Higher voltages create higher heat causing more damage to the battery. > > > > Jay > Peltz Power > > > > > > >> On Feb 9, 2021, at 6:36 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> My Rolls manual says: >> >> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the equalization. This is to >> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From tump at swnl.net Tue Feb 9 10:34:51 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:34:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level References: Message-ID: <7D80C376-04FD-4FC5-B5A6-AB0AED95794F@swnl.net> > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Jeff Myles > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level > Date: February 9, 2021 at 8:54:04 AM EST > T > Cc: > The main reason the manual instructs not to top up all cells before equalizing is to avoid overfilling to/up in the vent and having a spillover when they bubble. > > We suggest inspecting and topping them up after because they also go through water running the equalization. If a cell is noticeably lower than others it would make sense to top it up slightly to bring the electrolyte to a similar level as the others before beginning the process. If it's just one cell in the bank I would expect the SG reading on that one will be off from the others to begin with. If it's going through more water than others it's getting hotter. Why? > > Lower liquid level doesn't always equate to higher acid concentration. The SG reading in the cell with lower electrolyte would only read higher than others if the cell, like the others, wasn't suflated. If it is sulfated, the SG readings at full charge are lower because the sulfate has accumulated on the plate and not released back into the electrolyte during charging. > > First, he should check all cells at float charge before beginning the equalization so he knows where they're all starting from. Is the cell with the lower electrolyte level reading higher or lower SG than the others? Are the rest completely balanced and this one is off? > > SG readings immediately after equalization and before adding water will be elevated due to temperature. To get accurate readings after adding water he should cycle the batteries 2-3 times, allowing it to mix normally, and then check SG at float charge. SG results after an equalization are accurate after the bank has been cycled a few times. If cell(s) were sulfated, they will continue to desulfate as they're cycled normally so the results aren't immediate. > > > > > > > > > Jeff Myles ⋅ Marketing Manager > t +1.902.597.4012 m +1.902.802.6962 > f +1.902.597.8447 e jeff at rollsbattery.com > international mobile +1.917.463.8389 > <> <> <> <> > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 9 10:35:07 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 07:35:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> That does not sound best to me. I get the point but there are much better ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are checking water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this in case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water goes in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after watering. I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they EQ. I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2 they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye wrote: > My Rolls manual says: > > "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the > equalization. This is to > assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Feb 9 10:35:51 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:35:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues In-Reply-To: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E@gmail.com> References: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is anyone aware if this is alleviated with a parallel connected pair of inverters? I'm not saying that is the right solution, but it might not matter in a larger parallel connected system. On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 10:24 AM Jay wrote: > It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air > compressor > > I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed > installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and > specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw > inverter down. He didn’t mention if there is a fix coming. > > I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Feb 9 11:45:18 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 08:45:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Good morning everyone. The reason you don't fill to full before you EQ is you want to prevent water loss due to pressure. During the EQ process, there is lots of gassing and pressure, part of the reason you should loosen the 1/4 bayonet caps on the tops of the battery If the water level is filled to the top level that you should normally fill to you could potentially push electrolyte out of the battery and over time this loss of electrolyte will also dilute your electrolyte and this will cause a mess but will also cause the losses of sulfur, and you will eventually lose capacity. Unfortutniloy this is very common because many people overfill their batteries. You can tell this by using a voltmeter. Place the negative lead on the negative of the battery, and the positive lead on the top plastic of the battery, if you get voltage, someone has overfilled and spilled acid. You need to keep this in mind as you will no longer get max SG out of the battery if the client has been overfilling for a long time. Many are still EQ'ing too much, Equalizing is bad for a healthy battery bank, There are really only two reasons to EQ, 1. When SG's are more than .025 to .030 points indifference. 2. When the Customers Array can only produce less than 5% of the total max current of the battery bank. What causes the sg indifference is chronic undercharging, if the client got the battery bank to a full charge 2-3 times a week you should never have to Eq a battery bank! Also, you should run the system thru a full Bulk/Absorb cycle before you trigger the EQ. So you goto a site to do some maintenance... you check sg's and there is indifference between cells. With this, you know you *may* have to EQ. Below are not all the steps you would take for this process... See here: http://support.rollsbattery.com/a/solutions/articles/430 for more detail. 1. Check SG's 2. Check and retorque connections. Loosen the connection and retorque, DO NOT "TUG TEST" if already welded you won't detect a loose connection. 3. Check Charging settings, if your SG's are low or have large differences it's a good chance this is a symptom of chronic undercharging and you may need to make corrections or adjustments to settings. Often you have to be more aggressive in the winter and less aggressive in the summer. 4. Fill water to about an inch lower than the bottom of the fill tube, you don't want to fully top off the battery. This is typically 1/2 to a full inch below where you would normally fill them to. 5. Start a Full Bulk/Absorb cycle using the Generator/Grid 6. At the completion of the Absorb Cycle, Recheck SG's if you still have an SG indifference, then loosen the fill caps on all the batteries, you don't need to remove them unless they are hydrocaps. 7. Start EQ. 8 Monitor SG's every 30-60 mins, after target cells stop rising for more than 60 mins the EQ isn't doing much good so you want to terminate the EQ at that time. EQ time is generally 1/2 to 2/3rd of the calculated absorb timers. 9 If imbalance was corrected, then move on but you should consider raising Absorb timers or lowering End amps settings as again the need for EQ is due to chronic undercharging, Have the discussion with the customer that the battery bank is starting to show signs of sulfation and they need to make certain the SG's get to recommended levels at least once if not two or three times a week to prevent sulfation. If the Imbalance was not corrected then the customer is having charging problems, this time of year this is common because many don't like to hear the sound or expense of that generator. If this is the case have the customer run the generator every morning for 2-4 hours before the sun hits the panels. When the sun hits the panels let the panels finish the absorb charge. Have the customer spot check the lower cells every week. If the cells do not recover after 1-2 weeks the try another EQ. Unless the battery bank is in really bad shape do not EQ back to back, This is just going to cook the battery bank and kill them. As for a filling device, stay away from those auto shut off (blue) bottles, they are designed for golf cart batteries and often overfill. You can go out and by a filling station from Philadelphia scientific, but they are costly between $600 and $2,000. https://www.phlsci.com/product-lines/battery-watering-gun/ Me I'm cheap... I got one of these, and it has to be new... https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-1-Gal-Pump-Sprayer-1501HDXA/307766754?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_1_CHEMICALS-MULTI-NA-Feed-LIA-NA-NA-BASE_SHP&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_1_CHEMICALS-MULTI-NA-Feed-LIA-NA-NA-BASE_SHP-71700000041086586-58700005116788847-92700044875627027&gclid=Cj0KCQiAgomBBhDXARIsAFNyUqNOz0X4CH1NhJjSMQOVWjzp7FK3cXZ3ryeRT1eK2QyxM29mHgeyMFQaAjOxEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds You cut off the spray nozzle and mark the normal fill line with white electrical tape and the EQ fill level with the Red Electrical tape. This way you line the tape up with the top lip and when the water hits the nozzle you stop the flow of water. I wear a headlamp when I'm servicing banks so I can see into the battery while filling. Hope I addressed it all, feel free to reach out if you have any questions! Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 7:35 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > That does not sound best to me. I get the point but there are much better > ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are checking > water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this in > case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water goes > in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed > any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the > next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after > watering. > > I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start > the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they EQ. > > I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This > makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2 > they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the > time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye > wrote: > > My Rolls manual says: > > > > "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the > > equalization. This is to > > assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Tue Feb 9 12:31:56 2021 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 07:31:56 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3441B0E3-0884-4BF6-92EE-99849BCFE18F@renewablenergy.com> We have been successful with double and triple Sol-Arks being able to start just about any single phase loads, the imbalance tolerance is multiplied per inverter. Like others we had numerous single inverter sites having issues offgrid, primarily while completing construction, chop saws and air compressors being the main culprits. We measured a max surge amp as high as 60a for a 1hp compressor and large chop saw. We have been successful in using an Outback X240 balancing transformer to resolve the bus unbalance shut downs. Does anyone know of a non outback balancing transformer available on the market? > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. > Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com > On Feb 9, 2021, at 5:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > Is anyone aware if this is alleviated with a parallel connected pair of inverters? I'm not saying that is the right solution, but it might not matter in a larger parallel connected system. > >> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 10:24 AM Jay wrote: >> It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air compressor >> >> I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn’t mention if there is a fix coming. >> >> I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 13:19:44 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:19:44 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues In-Reply-To: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E@gmail.com> References: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E@gmail.com> Message-ID: It is also interesting how sol ark sells over the counter to end users and also through distributors but at nearly the same price so it makes it difficult for our distributors to carry the sol ark products. Jerry On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 7:42 AM Jay wrote: > It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air > compressor > > I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed > installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and > specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw > inverter down. He didn’t mention if there is a fix coming. > > I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Feb 9 14:29:12 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:29:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave makes a good point; I also don't recommend opening the cells while they are charging at a high rate.   I like to get SG readings with the electrolyte being mixed by bubbling, but I turn off the charging sources, and let it settle down for a few minutes, before opening caps. And I second Steve's comments: over charging and over filling the cells can both lead to more problems than EQing might solve. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/9/21 10:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > That does not sound best to me. I get the point but there are much better > ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are checking > water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this in > case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water goes > in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed > any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the > next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after > watering. > > I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start > the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they EQ. > > I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This > makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2 > they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the > time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye > wrote: >> My Rolls manual says: >> >> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the >> equalization. This is to >> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 9 12:25:27 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 09:25:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0aeb6cd07d283dce27ae72407f5d1833@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Thanks for the replies. I am going to assume Howie is not eating his batteries during any point of the recharge process. A few respondents are not aware of constraints against watering batteries prior to charging. Here is a typical passage from a battery O&M manual, below. This is from the Deka manual: Distilled or de-ionized water should only be added to batteries while the batteries are on charge and gassing or as soon after recharge as possible. This will prevent overfilling because the electrolyte is at its maximum level during this time. No one has yet provided any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to answer the primary question. It is rephrased here: Will adding water to a cell change the specific gravity reading? The implied question is: To get accurate SG readings, do all cells need to be at a consistent fill level? My intuition tells me the answers are yes and yes. If correct, I need to change my maintenance procedure to make sure I am getting accurate SG readings. I am curious enough that I will continue to research this. Here is what is on my agenda: I will continue to monitor this forum in case information from a case study arises. I will contact the engineers at Deka with this question. I have a test set of batteries that I am going to record SG before and after watering. The after watering will include SG readings over a period of time to see how long mixing requires. Thanks to everyone who replied. Battery systems present a level of complexity way beyond regular GT systems and deserve a lot of thought and research-- but then you all know that. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Howie Michaelson [mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:13 AM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level William, It certainly is possible I've missed something, but I've never seen any references to not eating batteries before equalizing. If anything, there is statements saying make sure to check levels before equalizing. I'm not sure why you wouldn't bring levels up before equalizing... Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 2:05 AM William Miller wrote: Friends: Here is a conundrum I have often pondered. Maybe someone can solve this for me: Flooded cell O&M manuals instruct not to top off battery electrolyte levels before equalizing. They also instruct to check SG before adding water. Imagine two identical cells, one low on water, but above the moss-guard, and one at the recommended level. You equalize the array and then check the SG on both. I am imagining that if the cells were equivalent in capacity, they have the same amount of acid. However if one has less water, it has a higher ratio of acid to water, therefore it will read higher in SG. If the above is true, it is not accurate to compare the SG in cells unless the water level is equal, or close to. If you were to add distilled water to the cell that was low, the water would not immediately mix thoroughly. Then to accurately compare SG, you need to wait some time after watering and you would need to be somewhat accurate in keeping all cells at the same water level. How long would this be? Checking SG is but one part of flooded cell maintenance. My monthly procedure is this: 1. Check to see if water is above moss-guard on all cells. (I sometime skip this if I am confident the cells historically do not dry out in one month.) 2. Initiate an EQ charge cycle. 3. Shortly after the EQ cycle, check and record SG in all cells. 4. Re-water batteries to correct level. The above takes long enough. If I have to add water and let it mix before I test SG, the process takes even longer. Nonetheless, I want accurate results. My advice to clients and actions taken are dependent on these readings. Anyone have any wisdom to pour in? I am going to experiment to see what I can learn. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 14:42:50 2021 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:42:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <8F849848-6F68-405D-A64F-CE0740D63196@gmail.com> Probably preaching to the choir here and I’m sure not gonna argue with Surrette But the purpose of equalization is to stir up the electrolyte so you have the same strength from the top to the bottom Some of the older industrial cells had a tube where you could sample it all the way down to the bottom and the top to see what the difference was I have seen them but I’ve never used them in our industry, but it was an interesting thought ! I have heard of batteries where they have taken them apart and had the lower portion of the cells considerably more wore than the upper portion, presumably from the electrolyte being stronger and never having been stirred up by a good charge It seems that came from a class at Trojan many years ago but I could be wrong Just my two cents worth and worth everything that you paid for it ! Bob Ellison > On Feb 9, 2021, at 10:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > That does not sound best to me. I get the point but there are much better > ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are checking > water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this in > case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water goes > in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed > any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the > next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after > watering. > > I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start > the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they EQ. > > I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This > makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2 > they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the > time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye > wrote: >> My Rolls manual says: >> >> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the >> equalization. This is to >> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 9 15:09:16 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 12:09:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <837e749e35b7e62730390b8cfdf4c6f9@127.0.0.1> A main point to the choir is that each manufacturer has their own recommendations. The US battery I often use has monthly EQ. Looking at 30 years of batteries here and the Offgrid manufactures seem to change what they like over time. Sometimes it is so complicated that I can't expect my client to succeed. I dumb it down, just the basics, and they still get 10 years or more on a set of L16's. I think it is because battery companies are in the business of selling batteries. I appreciate that also! This is not rocket science though, If I had them do all of the things on that list, well, they would not listen to me on the basics. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:29:12 -0500, Ray wrote: > Dave makes a good point; I also don't recommend opening the cells while > they are charging at a high rate. I like to get SG readings with the > electrolyte being mixed by bubbling, but I turn off the charging > sources, and let it settle down for a few minutes, before opening caps. > > And I second Steve's comments: over charging and over filling the cells > can both lead to more problems than EQing might solve. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/9/21 10:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> That does not sound best to me. I get the point but there are much >> better >> ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are >> checking >> water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this >> in >> case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water >> goes >> in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed >> any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the >> next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after >> watering. >> >> I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start >> the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they >> EQ. >> >> I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This >> makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2 >> they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the >> time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye >> wrote: >>> My Rolls manual says: >>> >>> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the >>> equalization. This is to >>> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Feb 9 15:17:27 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 12:17:27 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues In-Reply-To: References: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9bb40dc24bc5a4dc1a7dd2ea66da6340@127.0.0.1> Yes that has happened with 2 of mine Jerry. I like the Transformer Devils that I know. Might check these out in 2 or 3 years. The whole all in one does not really appeal to me either but I will keep an open mind, in 2 or 3 years! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:19:44 -0800, Jerry Shafer wrote: It is also interesting how sol ark sells over the counter to end users and also through distributors but at nearly the same price so it makes it difficult for our distributors to carry the sol ark products. Jerry On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 7:42 AM Jay wrote: It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can't run a 15 amp 120v air compressor I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn't mention if there is a fix coming. I guess I'll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [9] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Feb 9 15:51:07 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 13:51:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: <837e749e35b7e62730390b8cfdf4c6f9@127.0.0.1> References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> <837e749e35b7e62730390b8cfdf4c6f9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <006d01d6ff25$4b24bce0$e16e36a0$@solarwork.com> My recommendation on the HUPS that I install are: Use a refractometer! Check your SG, & compare all cells & if highest to lowest – If 0.02 or less no need to EQ. If 0.04 or greater time to EQ. I water every 8 weeks with a pump watering system, winter about 2-3 gallons per 2 months summer 4-4.5 gallons per 2 months. IMHO – EQ is rough on most batteries & this recommendation from NWES almost 30+ years ago has served me very well. I have many clients that have gotten 23+ years on their HUPS. I use them & I have only had to EQ once a year for 4years. 2500 AHR @48 VDC on 6000 watts tracked in a narrow N/S canyon, 4 hours of direct sun Nov 25-Jan 25. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level A main point to the choir is that each manufacturer has their own recommendations. The US battery I often use has monthly EQ. Looking at 30 years of batteries here and the Offgrid manufactures seem to change what they like over time. Sometimes it is so complicated that I can't expect my client to succeed. I dumb it down, just the basics, and they still get 10 years or more on a set of L16's. I think it is because battery companies are in the business of selling batteries. I appreciate that also! This is not rocket science though, If I had them do all of the things on that list, well, they would not listen to me on the basics. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:29:12 -0500, Ray > wrote: > Dave makes a good point; I also don't recommend opening the cells while > they are charging at a high rate. I like to get SG readings with the > electrolyte being mixed by bubbling, but I turn off the charging > sources, and let it settle down for a few minutes, before opening caps. > > And I second Steve's comments: over charging and over filling the cells > can both lead to more problems than EQing might solve. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/9/21 10:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> That does not sound best to me. I get the point but there are much >> better >> ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are >> checking >> water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this >> in >> case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water >> goes >> in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed >> any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the >> next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after >> watering. >> >> I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start >> the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they >> EQ. >> >> I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This >> makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2 >> they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the >> time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble. >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye > >> wrote: >>> My Rolls manual says: >>> >>> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the >>> equalization. This is to >>> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Feb 9 15:52:05 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 12:52:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: <8F849848-6F68-405D-A64F-CE0740D63196@gmail.com> References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> <8F849848-6F68-405D-A64F-CE0740D63196@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Guys you do have some great points. Here are my comments. *Taking Readings while EQ'ing. * Yes, this is not fun, and one of the big reasons I'm not a big fan of EQ'ing at all. As a matter of fact, I tell people all the time if you properly charge your battery bank on a regular basis, you should NEVER have to EQ. Last fall I retired a battery bank that was 8 S530's that were purchased in late 2002... This battery bank had been EQ'ed a total of two times, over the years and still had SG readings that were between 1.255 and 1.275. The capacity of the battery bank had fallen off over the past few years and was estimated to be around 60%. When you are EQing you should open all the doors and windows and get as much ventilation as possible. Even so, the Hydrogen-Sulfide case can give you headaches and other symptoms, In the last few years I have resulted using a full-face respirator mask when I work on battery banks as I'm too old and tired to deal with the symptoms of hydrogen gas inhalation. Even so, when you are EQ'ing you are often only checking the cells that you are attempting to balance, you are not checking the entire bank while under the EQ process. Normally this is only 3-4 cells at the most. When taking readings, I use a standard refractometer that is about 23 years old at this point. To collect the sample, I use a glass 8-inch stir stick (Chemistry Stir Stick) to take the drop of electrolyte out of the battery and place it on the slide of the refractometer read it, wipe it with a microfiber towel, and move on to the next cell. I can read a string of 24 cells in less than 9 mins if I'm taking my time, (I have done it in less than 7 mins). and I use an mp3 recorder or the audio recording function of my phone to record the sg readings. *Acid Stratification. * Stratification is an issue for some batteries not all. Rolls batteries are going to gas more and at a lower point than many of the batteries on the market today. Yes, we use more water, the reason for this is we use over 4.25% Antimony in our lead mix, most of our competition is around 1%. The reason for this is the higher antimony content lowers the gassing voltage. This will help mix the battery electrolyte, even when in float. Some companies even have tubes installed so you can inject air into them to help them mix. With this higher antimony content, I have only ever seen a Rolls Battery stratify when they sit in a warehouse for a long period of time. In today's world with the lead times from most battery manufacturers, this issue has pretty much gone away. Stratification can be an issue, but once you put the battery under a nominal Bulk/Absorb Cycle this should be enough to mix the electrolyte enough to get a consistent reading from a good quality hydrometer or refractometer. Try to keep your customers away from those EZ Red hydrometers, I like the refractometer because you can calibrate them and cleaning is easy. *Water Levels and Fill Levels* William, Yes and Yes... Water levels and, when you check the SG's will affect your readings. When I come to the battery room I will often spot check SG's before I add water and go thru the charging process, The after a charge I do a full recoding after the charge just before you top off. If you add enough to make sure you don't run them dry go thru a charging/EQ process and then add the 1-2 cups to finish the top off after you are finished isn't going to affect the SG's that much, maybe .0005 to .0010 points at the most. Now when you do EQ you definitely want to loosen the 1/4 turn bayonet caps, or flip caps. You want to do this because if you do get an ignition event and it's likely possible that you will at some point have this happen. The fumes you smell is hydrogen sulfide. The hydrogen gas fumes are very flammable, almost as flammable as gasoline fumes. So if you do have an ignition event you want the caps loose, you don't want to take them fully off, unless they are hydrocaps which will melt. The reason for this is compression! If you hold a firecracker in your open palm and light it what happens? You get 2nd-3rd degree burns and you may keep all your fingers. If you hold that same firecracker in a closed fist, what happens? It's a good chance you are going to lose fingers. When you get an ignition event on a battery, those fumes ignite and the ignited fumes trace back the source of those fumes. if the cap is in place there is enough compression to blow the top off the battery, if the cap is loose then it'll just flame out. While this flame out even is scary, loud, and may singe a few hairs the system should be okay with very little damage. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 11:42 AM RE Ellison wrote: > Probably preaching to the choir here and I’m sure not gonna argue with > Surrette > > But the purpose of equalization is to stir up the electrolyte so you have > the same strength from the top to the bottom > > Some of the older industrial cells had a tube where you could sample it > all the way down to the bottom and the top to see what the difference was > I have seen them but I’ve never used them in our industry, but it was an > interesting thought ! > > I have heard of batteries where they have taken them apart and had the > lower portion of the cells considerably more wore than the upper portion, > presumably from the electrolyte being stronger and never having been > stirred up by a good charge > > It seems that came from a class at Trojan many years ago but I could be > wrong > > Just my two cents worth and worth everything that you paid for it ! > > Bob Ellison > > > > On Feb 9, 2021, at 10:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > > > That does not sound best to me. I get the point but there are much > better > > ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are > checking > > water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this > in > > case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water > goes > > in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed > > any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the > > next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after > > watering. > > > > I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start > > the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they > EQ. > > > > I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This > > makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2 > > they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the > > time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble. > > > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > "we go where powerlines don't" > > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > > text 209 813 0060 > > > > On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye > > wrote: > >> My Rolls manual says: > >> > >> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the > >> equalization. This is to > >> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte." > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >> > >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >> > >> Change listserver email address & settings: > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > > the > >> other: > >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >> > >> List rules & etiquette: > >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >> > >> Check out or update participant bios: > >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at mcfeeters.net Tue Feb 9 18:42:24 2021 From: ben at mcfeeters.net (Ben's Solar and Battery) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 18:42:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues Message-ID: Jay, That was probably me. I did try it again (on camera again) and it started the compressor 3 times in a row. There could have been an unbalanced load on 1 leg, but I'm not sure. Sol-Ark says they've mostly fixed this issue, so I'll be doing a firmware update and trying the test again. I'll shut the rest of the house down this time and see what happens. I have 2 of them at off grid houses presently with no issues whatsoever. Ben To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues Message-ID: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can?t run a 15 amp 120v air compressor I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn?t mention if there is a fix coming. I guess I?ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. Jay Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Feb 10 00:23:22 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2021 21:23:22 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues In-Reply-To: <9bb40dc24bc5a4dc1a7dd2ea66da6340@127.0.0.1> References: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E@gmail.com> <9bb40dc24bc5a4dc1a7dd2ea66da6340@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5B9207EA-A68B-4D69-8082-61B5857B71FD@me.com> I agree with many of you on waiting awhile longer until these issues are sorted out. While I definitely think there is plenty of room beyond our usual favorites for another robust battery based inverter to offer I don’t intend to embark on another frustrating adventure at mostly my expense. At this point I’m more excited for the Midnite inverters more than anything and know once they’re released I won’t feel like I made a mistake. Meanwhile I’ll definitely be sending wishes of success to Sol-Ark. I’ve heard a lot of good things and will remain optimistic and hopeful it’s shortcomings will be resolved soon without needing to stack multiple units or a transformer. Nick A Lucchese > On Feb 9, 2021, at 12:17 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Yes that has happened with 2 of mine Jerry. I like the Transformer Devils that I know. Might check these out in 2 or 3 years. The whole all in one does not really appeal to me either but I will keep an open mind, in 2 or 3 years! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:19:44 -0800, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >> It is also interesting how sol ark sells over the counter to end users and also through distributors but at nearly the same price so it makes it difficult for our distributors to carry the sol ark products. >> Jerry >> >> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 7:42 AM Jay > wrote: >> It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can't run a 15 amp 120v air compressor >> >> I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn't mention if there is a fix coming. >> >> I guess I'll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 10 13:22:00 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 10:22:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> <8F849848-6F68-405D-A64F-CE0740D63196@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02892aede70032df628add6cd2960882@127.0.0.1> The Plews Lubrimatic water fill jug (not a blue one) is a fine tool for watering L16's. It is very accurate and the valve can be cleaned, I have used them on hundreds off offgrid battery systems from Surrette, US battery, Trojan, and Crown. I am mostly using US battery because they get my clients batteries fast in the days of C19. No other reason BTW. I tell my clients to count when the water starts flowing. This gives them an idea of how much water goes in. It is typically about 15 seconds on a good battery that is checked monthly. By counting, you also get an idea if the valve were to stick and you can then look at the level to avoid over filling. PLEWS 75-030 BLACK PLASTIC 2-QUART PROFESSIONAL BATTERY FILLER https://www.amazon.com/Plews-LubriMatic-2-Quart-Professional-Automatic/dp/B000RFUF12/ref=pd_lpo_263_t_0/141-3602947-2036416?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000RFUF12&pd_rd_r=3b8d6086-8f88-4063-8925-6cf0143abd82&pd_rd_w=3oZSb&pd_rd_wg=uDOW9&pf_rd_p=16b28406-aa34-451d-8a2e-b3930ada000c&pf_rd_r=TBAZ6QJE6RH6RTKQCH6Q&psc=1">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Feb 10 13:39:18 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 10:39:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level In-Reply-To: <02892aede70032df628add6cd2960882@127.0.0.1> References: <69880ac7-2270-6a76-dab2-5fd35c4ded8e@berkeleysolar.com> <49fcc4a4881bc04582facb34e2d16de4@127.0.0.1> <8F849848-6F68-405D-A64F-CE0740D63196@gmail.com> <02892aede70032df628add6cd2960882@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I have also found that the Plews battery filler works well for most L16 batteries. One does need to be careful in recommending it because there are some batteries that it fills higher than the recommended amount. Also, be aware that this type of filler will continue to fill a bit after the electrolyte level reaches the end of the nozzle. One trick to using properly it is to listen to the way it is bubbling. When the sound changes, it is time to stop. Kent Ostberberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/10/2021 10:22 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > The Plews Lubrimatic  water fill jug (not a blue one) is a fine tool > for watering L16's. It is very accurate and the valve can be cleaned, > I have used them on hundreds off offgrid battery systems from > Surrette, US battery, Trojan, and Crown. > > I am mostly using US battery because they get my clients batteries > fast in the days of C19. No other reason BTW. > > I tell my clients to count when the water starts flowing. This gives > them an idea of how much water goes in. It is typically about 15 > seconds on a good battery that is checked monthly. By counting, you > also get an idea if the valve were to stick and you can then look at > the level to avoid over filling. > > > Plews 75-030 Black Plastic 2-Quart Professional Battery Filler > > https://www.amazon.com/Plews-LubriMatic-2-Quart-Professional-Automatic/dp/B000RFUF12/ref=pd_lpo_263_t_0/141-3602947-2036416?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000RFUF12&pd_rd_r=3b8d6086-8f88-4063-8925-6cf0143abd82&pd_rd_w=3oZSb&pd_rd_wg=uDOW9&pf_rd_p=16b28406-aa34-451d-8a2e-b3930ada000c&pf_rd_r=TBAZ6QJE6RH6RTKQCH6Q&psc=1&refRID=TBAZ6QJE6RH6RTKQCH6Q > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Wed Feb 10 14:59:00 2021 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 14:59:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't see any indications that MLSD is making solar safer. It's increasing system cost and maintenance expense but the safety benefits haven't revealed themselves to me yet. Adding all the extra components increases the risk of failure in the system and increases the time our technicians have to spend on the roof. This extra time on the roof reduces overall safety for the installers. Also as per lussers' law, the system is only as reliable as the least reliable component times the reliability of all the other components in the system. By doubling the number of connections with MLSD we're increasing the likelyhood of system failure and exposing ourselves to a potential for increased downtime and lower productivity, this means a technician may have to spend more time on the roof dealing with maintenance issues and less time bringing more production online. Additionally, any potential safety benefit from MLSD hinges on the product performing properly, and if that product fails (which we see regularly) then it could create a false sense of safety for the people and firefighters that makes them less safe than they would be if the MLSD was not present at all. With that said, I recently became aware of a product called PVSTOP that looks like it may be a real solution to the concerns for firefighter safety in the event of a fire, that actually guarantees the panels are de-energized. Apparently it's been used in australia for some time now. It's fairly inexpensive and the cost will likely come down further as they continue to achieve economies of scale. https://www.pv-stop.com/ Your thoughts are appreciated, Sky Sims https://EcologicalSystems.org 732-462-3858 f)732-462-3962 "Just an old wrench" On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:55 AM jay wrote: > HI Andrew, > > I’ve been pondering your comments, and I hope you can elaborate on why you > don’t think MLPE has anything to do with firefighter safety? > And I guess I lump into the firefighter safety, homeowner safety as well. > > As to the code meeting. I have it on pretty good info that a very senior > member of the the NEC was pushing MLPE. It is true that the string > inverter OEM’s pushed back hard and that is why for the first time(?) a > code rule had a 2 year delay in implantation of the NEC 2017. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > > On Feb 4, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Solar Energy Solutions < > solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com> wrote: > > Dear All, > > I apologize for letting this conversation get a little stale before being > able to comment further. > > Before I reply, I would like to say I don't believe MLSD has anything to > do with firefighter safety. If being on dangerous roofs was really a > concern, steep roofs, slate roofs, metal roof, wet metal or shake roofs and > snow on roofs would get the same kind of scrutiny as solar on roofs. I can > only guess and think that some HUGE solar hating utility company devised > this whole firefighter safety thing. It is also my understanding none of > the string inverter folk turned up to the code development meetings where > MLSD was determined and you can guess who was. But much of this is only > rumor and the dark thoughts of a solar bozo. > > I HATE the hassle and maintenance issues of MLSD. I loved string > inverters and hated to see them go. So far as I can tell the US is the > only place on planet Earth to make String inverters all but illegal. This > said... a picture is worth a thousand words. All of the attached photos of > systems had the wire management done very well. If you look at the metal > roof photo you can see a small hole in it from the arc. I have many more > photos of different squirrel damaged systems. Ground Fault protection has > saved the inverters, but not the roofs. > > I don't really like the idea of squirrel guards. It seems like I may be > creating another problem down the road that I can't really imagine. Debris > build up could be an issue. Rainwater could back up from a damn and get > under shingles and into the cavity of the house. For me the easiest thing > that could be done is for some kind of a bittering agent to be part of the > wires so that one little lick would send a critter looking for a better > food source. > > Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man, > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 > Fire 2.JPG > > Fire 2.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 > Fire 3.JPG > > Fire 3.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > Fire 4.JPG > > Fire 4.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg > > > Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg > Shared with Dropbox > > > Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG > > > Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > > Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG > > > Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG > Shared with Dropbox > > > > > *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* > *President* > > > *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE* > *Since 1987,* > * helping you and your Portland neighborsmove** towards an > environmentally sustainable future.* > > *503-238-4502www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > * > > > On Friday, January 29, 2021, 8:15:28 PM PST, Ray > wrote: > > > I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single conductor > cables to run unprotected? outdoors? All because the module manus and > industry in general has made no effort, zero, to accommodate any type of > electrical industry standard K/Os for conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff > BTW). If we hadn't gone this wacky direction, starting about 15 years > ago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would > be much less reason for MLSD. > > I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole quick > connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each module. > > [image: Teck 90 Armoured Power & Control Cable 600V CSA FT4 HL ...][image: > Llt M10 Bayonet Lock Molding Waterproof Cable 2 Pole ...] > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 1/29/21 8:10 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: > > There’s a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years. > > In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails. > > However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there’s always that one loop of wire hanging in the open. > > I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box. > > I’m thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I’m thinking of squirrels and ice dams. > > Why can’t there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it? > > Maybe I’m just being naive. > > Hilton > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 10 17:33:51 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 14:33:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MLSD module level shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <92C1CA18-D8F6-49BA-9339-76738B826957@gmail.com> <1532305839.1813380.1612468165733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <555b300d3d74d53f73371f2755bfbc28@127.0.0.1> Thanks Sky! I can think of a few other uses in a fire if I needed something less destructive than a common fire extinguisher. Please let us know if you hear more and costing info. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 10 Feb 2021 14:59:00 -0500, Sky Sims wrote: I don't see any indications that MLSD is making solar safer. It's increasing system cost and maintenance expense but the safety benefits haven't revealed themselves to me yet. Adding all the extra components increases the risk of failure in the system and increases the time our technicians have to spend on the roof. This extra time on the roof reduces overall safety for the installers. Also as per lussers' law, the system is only as reliable as the least reliable component times the reliability of all the other components in the system. By doubling the number of connections with MLSD we're increasing the likelyhood of system failure and exposing ourselves to a potential for increased downtime and lower productivity, this means a technician may have to spend more time on the roof dealing with maintenance issues and less time bringing more production online. Additionally, any potential safety benefit from MLSD hinges on the product performing properly, and if that product fails (which we see regularly) then it could create a false sense of safety for the people and firefighters that makes them less safe than they would be if the MLSD was not present at all. With that said, I recently became aware of a product called PVSTOP that looks like it may be a real solution to the concerns for firefighter safety in the event of a fire, that actually guarantees the panels are de-energized. Apparently it's been used in australia for some time now. It's fairly inexpensive and the cost will likely come down further as they continue to achieve economies of scale. https://www.pv-stop.com/ [3] Your thoughts are appreciated, Sky Sims https://EcologicalSystems.org [4] 732-462-3858 f)732-462-3962 "Just an old wrench" On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 11:55 AM jay wrote: HI Andrew, I've been pondering your comments, and I hope you can elaborate on why you don't think MLPE has anything to do with firefighter safety? And I guess I lump into the firefighter safety, homeowner safety as well. As to the code meeting. I have it on pretty good info that a very senior member of the the NEC was pushing MLPE. It is true that the string inverter OEM's pushed back hard and that is why for the first time(?) a code rule had a 2 year delay in implantation of the NEC 2017. Thanks jay peltz power On Feb 4, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: Dear All, I apologize for letting this conversation get a little stale before being able to comment further. Before I reply, I would like to say I don't believe MLSD has anything to do with firefighter safety. If being on dangerous roofs was really a concern, steep roofs, slate roofs, metal roof, wet metal or shake roofs and snow on roofs would get the same kind of scrutiny as solar on roofs. I can only guess and think that some HUGE solar hating utility company devised this whole firefighter safety thing. It is also my understanding none of the string inverter folk turned up to the code development meetings where MLSD was determined and you can guess who was. But much of this is only rumor and the dark thoughts of a solar bozo. I HATE the hassle and maintenance issues of MLSD. I loved string inverters and hated to see them go. So far as I can tell the US is the only place on planet Earth to make String inverters all but illegal. This said... a picture is worth a thousand words. All of the attached photos of systems had the wire management done very well. If you look at the metal roof photo you can see a small hole in it from the arc. I have many more photos of different squirrel damaged systems. Ground Fault protection has saved the inverters, but not the roofs. I don't really like the idea of squirrel guards. It seems like I may be creating another problem down the road that I can't really imagine. Debris build up could be an issue. Rainwater could back up from a damn and get under shingles and into the cavity of the house. For me the easiest thing that could be done is for some kind of a bittering agent to be part of the wires so that one little lick would send a critter looking for a better food source. Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Man, https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 [7] Fire 2.JPG [8] FIRE 2.JPG Shared with Dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 [9] Fire 3.JPG [10] FIRE 3.JPG Shared with Dropbox Fire 4.JPG [11] FIRE 4.JPG Shared with Dropbox Fire 5 Voltair the culprit.jpg [12] FIRE 5 VOLTAIR THE CULPRIT.JPG Shared with Dropbox Metal Roof Squirrel damage.JPG [13] METAL ROOF SQUIRREL DAMAGE.JPG Shared with Dropbox Shadow of scorched squirrel on metal roof.JPG [14] SHADOW OF SCORCHED SQUIRREL ON METAL ROOF.JPG Shared with Dropbox ANDREW KOYAANISQATSI PRESIDENT Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. _The BRIGHT CHOICE_ SINCE 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move TOWARDS AN ENVIRONMENTALLY SUSTAINABLE FUTURE. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com [15] On Friday, January 29, 2021, 8:15:28 PM PST, Ray wrote: I totally agree; where else does the NEC allow loose single conductor cables to run unprotected? outdoors? All because the module manus and industry in general has made no effort, zero, to accommodate any type of electrical industry standard K/Os for conduit, or TEK 90 (great stuff BTW). If we hadn't gone this wacky direction, starting about 15 years ago, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would be much less reason for MLSD. I could see whips of TEK 90 that plugged into polarized 2 pole quick connects mounted integrally to a J box on the back of each module. There's a buried-in-plain-sight issue here that has bugged me for years. In the bad old days we had to hard wire into J-boxes on the backs of modules. A pain, but it meant that, if necessary, we could install conduit from the module to the combiner box. Now we have convenient pigtails. However, we are stuck with #10 PV wire hanging under the module from the box to the nearest attachment point. There are all sorts of trays and wire management systems, but there's always that one loop of wire hanging in the open. I know that the module industry has near zero margins as a commodity market. Perhaps one manufacturer could differentiate themselves by making a module with either 1) armored pigtails, or 2) provision for some kind of conduit starting at the J box. I'm thinking of all the various back covers installers have to improvise on ground mounts. I'm thinking of squirrels and ice dams. Why can't there be a module with the equivalent of Teck 90 cable on it? Maybe I'm just being naive. Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [28] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [29] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [30] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [31] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [32] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [33] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [34] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.pv-stop.com/ [4] https://ecologicalsystems.org [5] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [6] mailto:solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com [7] https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 [8] https://www.dropbox.com/s/ksd5yhfsammybdz/Fire%202.JPG?dl=0 [9] https://www.dropbox.com/s/3g5c57nqke9x7b2/Fire%201.JPG?dl=0 [10] https://www.dropbox.com/s/vtehaht4rlcrco7/Fire%203.JPG?dl=0 [11] https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjm01bkquds1b31/Fire%204.JPG?dl=0 [12] https://www.dropbox.com/s/vv6f7je8asgx3ih/Fire%205%20%20Voltair%20the%20culprit.jpg?dl=0 [13] https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4fryj0hleusphd/Metal%20Roof%20Squirrel%20damage.JPG?dl=0 [14] https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bnrgmqzkryu3w5/Shadow%20of%20scorched%20squirrel%20on%20metal%20roof.JPG?dl=0 [15] http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/ [16] mailto:ray at solarray.com [17] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [23] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [26] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [28] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [29] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [32] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [34] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Feb 10 18:08:58 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 15:08:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro multi-inverter Message-ID: <28cc4634-cde8-6373-a8ae-15773768a9a2@coveoregon.com> Have any wrenches out there installed a Schneider XW Pro multi-inverter setup with three inverters per the multi-inverter design guide ? I've got one installed per the manual and am having a devil of a time getting it to stay latched onto the generator with the external contactor. Can't even get it to stay latched on with no load. All advise on getting this to work is appreciated. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 10 18:29:03 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 15:29:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro multi-inverter In-Reply-To: <28cc4634-cde8-6373-a8ae-15773768a9a2@coveoregon.com> References: <28cc4634-cde8-6373-a8ae-15773768a9a2@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <20101c87526db02e3d1498e7700e98af@127.0.0.1> Hi Kent, I appreciate the sound tip on the water fill jug! OK, there is an issue here and I did a temporary fix. There is 1.10 firmware that was supposed to be out at xmas. It is coming and they know about this. I assume you have other devices? Mppts, Bat mon, or SCP. and the Gateway! Let me know. I used all of the XW's on one xanbus and the rest of the devices on the other xanbus. This was approved by Schneider. They are trying to get the XWP to run 3 phase ASAP and I assume that this has gone to the side burner. What firmware and is this grid or offgrid? Have you escalated this to Schneider? They need to hear from you! Back in the AM, going to the big city of Mariposa.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 10 Feb 2021 15:08:58 -0800, Kent Osterberg wrote: Have any wrenches out there installed a Schneider XW Pro multi-inverter setup with three inverters per the multi-inverter design guide [3]? I've got one installed per the manual and am having a devil of a time getting it to stay latched onto the generator with the external contactor. Can't even get it to stay latched on with no load. All advise on getting this to work is appreciated. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/download/xw-pro-iec-technical-publications/?ind=13539&filename=XW-Pro-Multi-unit-Design-Guide-990-91373.pdf&wpdmdl=10327&refresh=6024628387f561612997251 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 10 18:38:39 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 15:38:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW Pro multi-inverter In-Reply-To: <28cc4634-cde8-6373-a8ae-15773768a9a2@coveoregon.com> References: <28cc4634-cde8-6373-a8ae-15773768a9a2@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: <53d17fc443b3754a568ee26def9c0a90@127.0.0.1> What gen are you using? I assume it is stable at 6ohz right? Needs to be darn close, and once it qualifies it can follow the gen. If there is solar and sun it may not do anything as the voltage will be up. You probably know all of this. I attached a cheat sheet for a client who was having a similar problem. Good Luck! Really am going now..... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 10 Feb 2021 15:08:58 -0800, Kent Osterberg wrote: Have any wrenches out there installed a Schneider XW Pro multi-inverter setup with three inverters per the multi-inverter design guide [3]? I've got one installed per the manual and am having a devil of a time getting it to stay latched onto the generator with the external contactor. Can't even get it to stay latched on with no load. All advise on getting this to work is appreciated. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/download/xw-pro-iec-technical-publications/?ind=13539&filename=XW-Pro-Multi-unit-Design-Guide-990-91373.pdf&wpdmdl=10327&refresh=6024628387f561612997251 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: frank2.PNG Type: image/png Size: 400475 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 11 12:27:28 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 09:27:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: XW Pro multi-inverter Message-ID: My comment about the gateway dual xanbus is not going to help you as there are not too many devices. The solar is not in the network. I think you need to eliminate the external contactor as the source. Or, There was an issue I saw on a clients system and we had to revert back to older firmware. This is why I asked what you are running? Also asked if this is offgrid in another email. Good Luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 10 Feb 2021 16:08:23 -0800, Kent Osterberg wrote: Thanks, Dave. Other equipment is a new 50 kW Kohler; steady as a rock at 60.0 Hz, SCP, battery monitor, and AGS. There is a Gateway but not presently installed. 10 kW of solar on Classic charge controllers. I've discussed this with tech support but so far none of their ideas have helped. New firmware was installed on the inverters when the output voltage was calibrated. Occasionally the system will connect with the generator. Usually, the external contactor closes, then opens again. Often within a second. Sometimes it opens a few seconds later or up to 30 seconds later. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/10/2021 3:38 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: What gen are you using? I assume it is stable at 6ohz right? Needs to be darn close, and once it qualifies it can follow the gen. If there is solar and sun it may not do anything as the voltage will be up. You probably know all of this. I attached a cheat sheet for a client who was having a similar problem. Good Luck! Really am going now..... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 10 Feb 2021 15:08:58 -0800, Kent Osterberg [5] wrote: Have any wrenches out there installed a Schneider XW Pro multi-inverter setup with three inverters per the multi-inverter design guide [6]? I've got one installed per the manual and am having a devil of a time getting it to stay latched onto the generator with the external contactor. Can't even get it to stay latched on with no load. All advise on getting this to work is appreciated. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:kent at coveoregon.com [6] https://solar.schneider-electric.com/download/xw-pro-iec-technical-publications/?ind=13539&filename=XW-Pro-Multi-unit-Design-Guide-990-91373.pdf&wpdmdl=10327&refresh=6024628387f561612997251 [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Sun Feb 14 20:15:29 2021 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:15:29 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. Ron From lucchesesolar at me.com Sun Feb 14 20:52:48 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:52:48 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51C175E7-5F85-408A-8424-4A0AE3AC4970@me.com> Greetings Ron, Yes they are quite simple to replace and inexpensive as well. I highly recommend purchasing Outback replacement parts from zonnaenergy.com as they offer great support and often have more replacement parts than Outback themselves. Count on 45 minutes to an hour 15 to remove all the necessary AC and DC conductors and removal from wall plus re-installation. You may want to order a replacement thermistor at the same time depending on it’s age. Nick A Lucchese > On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:15 PM, Ron Young wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. > > Ron > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 21:00:37 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:00:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ron, Yes it is field repairable. Just open up the inverter and the fan is in that outer housing. When lifting the case up, remember the fan power wire needs by be unplugged as you lift the case as not to rip it off the circuit board it is attached to. Then you will just turn the case over and remove the fan and replace with the new one. Then carefully plug it back in before completing the replacement of the case. If you haven’t opened one up before, the red and black round plastic spacers on the dc terminals are screwed off, the six small Phillips head screws removed from the exposed AC board, and the 8 screws holding the case to the inverter base removed and lift the case up part way until you can see the fan wire. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:15 PM Ron Young wrote: > Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has > had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head > start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not > sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. > > Ron > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 14 20:43:35 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:43:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Easy swap. On Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 8:15 PM Ron Young wrote: > Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has > had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head > start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not > sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. > > Ron > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Feb 14 21:06:01 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 18:06:01 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22DC63A6-6F2E-4BE1-9ACC-5A7FE56E0B76@millersolar.com> Also, make sure the ribbon cable is tucked away against the transformer so you don’t pinch it. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Feb 14, 2021, at 6:00 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > >  > Hi Ron, > Yes it is field repairable. Just open up the inverter and the fan is in that outer housing. When lifting the case up, remember the fan power wire needs by be unplugged as you lift the case as not to rip it off the circuit board it is attached to. Then you will just turn the case over and remove the fan and replace with the new one. Then carefully plug it back in before completing the replacement of the case. > > If you haven’t opened one up before, the red and black round plastic spacers on the dc terminals are screwed off, the six small Phillips head screws removed from the exposed AC board, and the 8 screws holding the case to the inverter base removed and lift the case up part way until you can see the fan wire. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > > > > >> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:15 PM Ron Young wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. >> >> Ron >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 21:09:40 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 19:09:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most of the major wholesalers carry this part. Don’t waste your time calling OB. Replace the temp sensor while you are in there. Jay Peltz power. > On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:00 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > >  > Hi Ron, > Yes it is field repairable. Just open up the inverter and the fan is in that outer housing. When lifting the case up, remember the fan power wire needs by be unplugged as you lift the case as not to rip it off the circuit board it is attached to. Then you will just turn the case over and remove the fan and replace with the new one. Then carefully plug it back in before completing the replacement of the case. > > If you haven’t opened one up before, the red and black round plastic spacers on the dc terminals are screwed off, the six small Phillips head screws removed from the exposed AC board, and the 8 screws holding the case to the inverter base removed and lift the case up part way until you can see the fan wire. > > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > > > > >> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:15 PM Ron Young wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. >> >> Ron >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Sun Feb 14 21:26:27 2021 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 02:26:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <3681BF01-1BDC-473B-A2FF-9C10A082AECD@foxfire-energy.com> Fan replacement is easier than boards Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:00 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote:  Hi Ron, Yes it is field repairable. Just open up the inverter and the fan is in that outer housing. When lifting the case up, remember the fan power wire needs by be unplugged as you lift the case as not to rip it off the circuit board it is attached to. Then you will just turn the case over and remove the fan and replace with the new one. Then carefully plug it back in before completing the replacement of the case. If you haven’t opened one up before, the red and black round plastic spacers on the dc terminals are screwed off, the six small Phillips head screws removed from the exposed AC board, and the 8 screws holding the case to the inverter base removed and lift the case up part way until you can see the fan wire. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:15 PM Ron Young > wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. Ron _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 22:24:31 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 19:24:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Field replaceable, just like any work inside the inverter be very carefull to protect the ribbon and when removing front cover the fan is plugged into a board and you can damage the board if you are pull the cover to far away Jerry On Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 5:15 PM Ron Young wrote: > Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has > had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head > start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not > sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. > > Ron > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 23:08:45 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 23:08:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ron, Easier than board replacement, but you need to open the body up the same way. The fan is attached to the upper part of the housing - 4 screws and a single connection. Trick will be finding the fan, although I think lots of distributors still have it in stock. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 8:15 PM Ron Young wrote: > Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has > had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head > start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not > sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. > > Ron > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toddcory at finestplanet.com Sun Feb 14 23:08:32 2021 From: toddcory at finestplanet.com (toddcory at finestplanet.com) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 20:08:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: <3681BF01-1BDC-473B-A2FF-9C10A082AECD@foxfire-energy.com> References: , <3681BF01-1BDC-473B-A2FF-9C10A082AECD@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> has anyone successfully done this without removing the inverter from the wall? todd On Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:26pm, "Foxfire Energy" said: Fan replacement is easier than boards Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:00 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: Hi Ron, Yes it is field repairable. Just open up the inverter and the fan is in that outer housing. When lifting the case up, remember the fan power wire needs by be unplugged as you lift the case as not to rip it off the circuit board it is attached to. Then you will just turn the case over and remove the fan and replace with the new one. Then carefully plug it back in before completing the replacement of the case. If you haven’t opened one up before, the red and black round plastic spacers on the dc terminals are screwed off, the six small Phillips head screws removed from the exposed AC board, and the 8 screws holding the case to the inverter base removed and lift the case up part way until you can see the fan wire. John Blittersdorf CV Wind Service On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:15 PM Ron Young <[ solareagle at solareagle.com ]( mailto:solareagle at solareagle.com )> wrote:Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. Ron _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: [ RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ]( mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org ) Change listserver email address & settings: [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: [ https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ]( https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ ) [ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ]( http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org ) List rules & etiquette: [ http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ]( http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm ) Check out or update participant bios: [ http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ]( http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ) _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Feb 14 23:46:10 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 23:46:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <875b8bb0-3e89-8b49-d081-8cd5beb55474@solarray.com> You'll pinch the ribbon cable, get really pissed and have to take it off the wall anyway.  I just deal with the tight AC connections, the DC main lugs that should not be torqued over 7 ft-lbs, and take it off the wall.  Every time. I also now go ahead and do the control board, and the AC board if the clear covered relays are getting hard to see through from soot on the inside. I just don't have time any more to run out 3 times in 6 months fixing an old Outback system. Its really like replacing the timing belt on a car and not replacing the water pump at the same time.  A year from now, you'll wish you did. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/14/21 11:08 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > Ron, > Easier than board replacement, but you need to open the body up the > same way. The fan is attached to the upper part of the housing - 4 > screws and a single connection. Trick will be finding the fan, > although I think lots of distributors still have it in stock. > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 8:15 PM Ron Young > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter > that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought > I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I > know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much > appreciated, thanks. > > Ron > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 00:14:52 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:14:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: <875b8bb0-3e89-8b49-d081-8cd5beb55474@solarray.com> References: <875b8bb0-3e89-8b49-d081-8cd5beb55474@solarray.com> Message-ID: Supper easy to do hanging on the wall, yes be carfull of the ribbon so use a nylon wire tie to protect the the ribbon when putting the cover back on. The wire tie goes perpendicular to the ribbon as you slide the cover back on. Easy! Jerry On Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 8:46 PM Ray wrote: > You'll pinch the ribbon cable, get really pissed and have to take it off > the wall anyway. I just deal with the tight AC connections, the DC main > lugs that should not be torqued over 7 ft-lbs, and take it off the wall. > Every time. I also now go ahead and do the control board, and the AC board > if the clear covered relays are getting hard to see through from soot on > the inside. I just don't have time any more to run out 3 times in 6 > months fixing an old Outback system. > > Its really like replacing the timing belt on a car and not replacing the > water pump at the same time. A year from now, you'll wish you did. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/14/21 11:08 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Ron, > Easier than board replacement, but you need to open the body up the same > way. The fan is attached to the upper part of the housing - 4 screws and a > single connection. Trick will be finding the fan, although I think lots of > distributors still have it in stock. > Howie > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 8:15 PM Ron Young wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has >> had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head >> start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not >> sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. >> >> Ron >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 23:44:04 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:44:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <7DF24D2C-EEBF-4FB3-9B0F-3C97F6F9BC5F@gmail.com> Yes but it faster to remove it than fight the boards shifting. Best trick I know is to cut a slot in the DCA so you can pull it out without removing the cables first. Of course you have to remove it to cut the slot. Jay Peltz power. > On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:32 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > >  > has anyone successfully done this without removing the inverter from the wall? > > todd > > > > > On Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:26pm, "Foxfire Energy" said: > > Fan replacement is easier than boards > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:00 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > Hi Ron, > Yes it is field repairable. Just open up the inverter and the fan is in that outer housing. When lifting the case up, remember the fan power wire needs by be unplugged as you lift the case as not to rip it off the circuit board it is attached to. Then you will just turn the case over and remove the fan and replace with the new one. Then carefully plug it back in before completing the replacement of the case. > If you haven’t opened one up before, the red and black round plastic spacers on the dc terminals are screwed off, the six small Phillips head screws removed from the exposed AC board, and the 8 screws holding the case to the inverter base removed and lift the case up part way until you can see the fan wire. > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:15 PM Ron Young wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. >> >> Ron >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Feb 15 10:16:52 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 07:16:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <3681BF01-1BDC-473B-A2FF-9C10A082AECD@foxfire-energy.com> <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: <63c55460-18ff-2b30-2759-3724edeacf16@coveoregon.com> For a GVFX you don't have to worry about reinstalling the large o-ring on the perimeter of the case, so you can do it without taking it off the wall. Don't think I'd disassemble a sealed case unit without taking it off the wall because it is just about impossible to get the o-ring back in place. But you have everything removed to the point that there are only four screws left, so you might not be saving any time. To protect the ribbon cable during reassembly I put a heavy piece of paper (like a slick coated business card) over it that extends to the outside. When the case screws are partially tightened, the paper is removed. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 2/14/2021 8:08 PM, toddcory at finestplanet.com wrote: > > has anyone successfully done this without removing the inverter from > the wall? > > todd > > > > On Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:26pm, "Foxfire Energy" > said: > > Fan replacement is easier than boards > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:00 PM, John Blittersdorf > wrote: > > Hi Ron, >     Yes it is field repairable. Just open up the inverter and the > fan is in that outer housing.  When lifting the case up, remember > the fan power wire needs by be unplugged as you lift the case as > not to rip it off the circuit board it is attached to.  Then you > will just turn the case over and remove the fan and replace with > the new one.  Then carefully plug it back in before completing the > replacement of the case. > If you haven’t opened one up before, the red and black round > plastic spacers on the dc terminals are screwed off, the six small > Phillips head screws removed from the exposed AC board, and the 8 > screws holding the case to the inverter base removed and lift the > case up part way until you can see the fan wire. > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:15 PM Ron Young > > wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter > that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but > thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field > replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the > fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. > > Ron > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Feb 15 13:56:06 2021 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:56:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy tech support Message-ID: <022701d703cc$37805d10$a6811730$@OasisMontana.com> Hi all, we have been presented the following from a customer: I have 2 PVP4800 inverters installed in 2011 that include the PVP1010 modules. Now that Advanced Energy has quit supporting them, do you have any suggestions how I can receive my inverter data? This is not our customer, just a fellow we’re trying to help. Any words of advice I can provide? I’ve sent emails to the last address I have uncovered and still not heard anything back. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 15 14:38:53 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:38:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy tech support In-Reply-To: <022701d703cc$37805d10$a6811730$@OasisMontana.com> References: <022701d703cc$37805d10$a6811730$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Email is often alot slower or worse in a case like this. I found this, https://www.advancedenergy.com/services-overview/support/ MEET YOUR SUPPORT TEAM We're always happy to help. Whether you need on-site training, application consulting, or technical assistance, our global service team is dedicated to providing the right support. Let us know what you need. We'll make sure you get it. TECHNICAL SUPPORT U.S.: +1 800 446 9167 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:56:06 -0700, chris at OasisMontana.com wrote: Hi all, we have been presented the following from a customer: I have 2 PVP4800 inverters installed in 2011 that include the PVP1010 modules. Now that Advanced Energy has quit supporting them, do you have any suggestions how I can receive my inverter data? This is not _our_ customer, just a fellow we're trying to help. Any words of advice I can provide? I've sent emails to the last address I have uncovered and still not heard anything back. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com [3] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon Feb 15 14:28:14 2021 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:28:14 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Some admin stuff, please read it all Message-ID: <1613417455550.619b6b073122a1a1@re-wrenches.org> Some housekeeping. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact me off list. First, the Wrench list bios may be offline for awhile today. Our host is forcing us into a major PHP upgrade that soon won't work with our application. So I hired Sharkey to work on that for us, and the new version is almost complete. Next, I know we have many rules and admin suggestions on this list, but they are designed to keep the list as professional and useful as possible to as many members as possible. So please note the following: 1. If you wish your list message to be seen by someone outside of our wrenches group, it is almost always best to Bcc: them. That way any member using Reply-to-All on the list won't continue sending messages to that person. 2. It is almost always best to use "Reply" for your Wrench list replies. "Reply-to-All" will usually send messages to the list AND send a second copies to the Wrench member(s) you are replying to AND send a copy to anyone else who was cc'd in the previous message. Really, we only need one copy. 3a. It is best to include graphics or photo files as *attachments* to a message, rather than embedding the graphic in the body of your message. That will cut down on the number of duplicate graphics files sent to members. 3b. If you are replying to messages with embedded graphics or included files, please edit them out of your reply. We don't need multiple copies of the same graphics sent to hundreds of members. For example, someone might embed 3 photos in their message to the list. Then if there were 5 responses done without editing out the photos. This would result in 18 photos sent to each of us, 15 of which are duplicates, when the original 3 was enough. 4. Remember, the message size is limited to 2 MB (includes all graphics and all text), so that members with slow connections or plans with limited data aren't overwhelmed. Anything larger will be rejected. From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 15:20:16 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:20:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> References: <3681BF01-1BDC-473B-A2FF-9C10A082AECD@foxfire-energy.com> <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Thats the only way I have done repairs and service, why fight the weight if you don't need to plus its just more to do. On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 8:02 AM wrote: > has anyone successfully done this without removing the inverter from the > wall? > > todd > > > > > > > > On Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:26pm, "Foxfire Energy" < > dan at foxfire-energy.com> said: > > Fan replacement is easier than boards > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:00 PM, John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Ron, > Yes it is field repairable. Just open up the inverter and the fan is > in that outer housing. When lifting the case up, remember the fan power > wire needs by be unplugged as you lift the case as not to rip it off the > circuit board it is attached to. Then you will just turn the case over and > remove the fan and replace with the new one. Then carefully plug it back > in before completing the replacement of the case. > If you haven’t opened one up before, the red and black round plastic > spacers on the dc terminals are screwed off, the six small Phillips head > screws removed from the exposed AC board, and the 8 screws holding the case > to the inverter base removed and lift the case up part way until you can > see the fan wire. > John Blittersdorf > CV Wind Service > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:15 PM Ron Young > wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has >> had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head >> start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not >> sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. >> >> Ron >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ltuss at outbackpower.com Mon Feb 15 16:20:33 2021 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 21:20:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Ron Below is a link to a video on how to change a fan in an OutBack Inverter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tlsk0sa1bY I believe there are several videos for doing this. I hope this helps. Take Care -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 5:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks. Ron _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=29b8a005-762398d1-29bba98e-8680d8d86cc5-2eb343a3bde05ce2&q=1&e=71ec85fe-f82f-42f7-9bc2-a4485fe86660&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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From frenergy at psln.com Mon Feb 15 22:23:45 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 19:23:45 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: <3681BF01-1BDC-473B-A2FF-9C10A082AECD@foxfire-energy.com> <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Considering slot/board alignment, ribbon cable, sensor and poor visibility when attempting either a board change or fan swap on a VFX Flex Power 3 or 4, if you're doing it on one of the FX's in the middle, leaving on the wall may not work out so well.  Might be time to pull it off.             Jerry, so is the nylon wire tie idea to allow the casting to push in the ribbon cable a little as the case slides past it without catching on it?             And I think it was Ray about replacing boards when the fan dies.  I've had fans die in 5-6 years and boards last 15+ years though it does depend on how old everything is and the condition of those pesky relay covers.  Both boards are a lot more money than just the fan if the situation doesn't qualify for yanking boards. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 2/15/2021 12:20 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Thats the only way I have done repairs and service, why fight the > weight if you don't need to plus its just more to do. > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 8:02 AM > wrote: > > has anyone successfully done this without removing the inverter > from the wall? > > todd > > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 01:14:52 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 22:14:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement In-Reply-To: References: <3681BF01-1BDC-473B-A2FF-9C10A082AECD@foxfire-energy.com> <1613362113.000229021@webmail.finestplanet.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Yes, the wire tie asks like a deflector protecting the ribbon, works great, goes quick, inverters are too heavy to deal with for a simple fan swap. BTW, Replace the temp sensor at the same time. Jerry On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 7:22 PM frenergy wrote: > Considering slot/board alignment, ribbon cable, sensor and poor visibility > when attempting either a board change or fan swap on a VFX Flex Power 3 or > 4, if you're doing it on one of the FX's in the middle, leaving on the wall > may not work out so well. Might be time to pull it off. > > Jerry, so is the nylon wire tie idea to allow the casting to > push in the ribbon cable a little as the case slides past it without > catching on it? > > And I think it was Ray about replacing boards when the fan > dies. I've had fans die in 5-6 years and boards last 15+ years though it > does depend on how old everything is and the condition of those pesky relay > covers. Both boards are a lot more money than just the fan if the > situation doesn't qualify for yanking boards. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 2/15/2021 12:20 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Thats the only way I have done repairs and service, why fight the weight > if you don't need to plus its just more to do. > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 8:02 AM wrote: > >> has anyone successfully done this without removing the inverter from the >> wall? >> >> todd >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-7010325994735940054_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Fri Feb 19 11:33:15 2021 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 16:33:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount maker In-Reply-To: <1466864064.192888.1613749542748@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1466864064.192888.1613749542748.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1466864064.192888.1613749542748@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <666804720.194284.1613752395220@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks--This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri Feb 19 13:09:16 2021 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:09:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount maker In-Reply-To: <666804720.194284.1613752395220@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1466864064.192888.1613749542748.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1466864064.192888.1613749542748@mail.yahoo.com>, <666804720.194284.1613752395220@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bill, I don't think the picture got attached to your email... unless it's just a problem on my end. Thanks, Kienan Maxfield Solar maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (801) 631-5584 (Cell) ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Bill Hennessy Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 9:33 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount maker Hi folks--This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. [X] regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 19 13:13:08 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 10:13:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount maker In-Reply-To: References: <1466864064.192888.1613749542748.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1466864064.192888.1613749542748@mail.yahoo.com>, <666804720.194284.1613752395220@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9d2848840300fcca39e4d186a1203dce@127.0.0.1> No pix here either! I wanna see a single pole mount with 40 modules on it! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 18:09:16 +0000, Kienan Maxfield wrote: Bill, I don't think the picture got attached to your email... unless it's just a problem on my end. Thanks, Kienan MAXFIELD SOLAR MAXFIELDSOLAR at HOTMAIL.COM [3] (801) 631-5584 (CELL) ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Bill Hennessy SENT: Friday, February 19, 2021 9:33 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] pole mount maker Hi folks--This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Fri Feb 19 17:12:39 2021 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:12:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount manufacturer w pic References: <168413748.318351.1613772760046.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <168413748.318351.1613772760046@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks, Messed up on the first try. Here's the pic. This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1613772493523blob.jpg Type: image/png Size: 764818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Fri Feb 19 17:49:52 2021 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:49:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] third time charm References: <1560275364.328948.1613774992667.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1560275364.328948.1613774992667@mail.yahoo.com> Hi folks--Apologies for the snags. I'll be in my grave before I'm skilled at doing pictures. I've attached the picture as a pdf. This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pole mount maker 48 mods.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 171205 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Feb 19 18:50:08 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:50:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] third time charm In-Reply-To: <1560275364.328948.1613774992667@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1560275364.328948.1613774992667.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1560275364.328948.1613774992667@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b063ab881ddb430da6cd0278acfe19b@127.0.0.1> I did a google pictures search and could not find anything that big. Really need a backside pix. I do not like using 8" poles because of their weight on a hill. The one in the picture must be 10" or larger. Gigundo pole mount! I give up but maybe someone else? Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:49:52 +0000 (UTC), Bill Hennessy wrote: Hi folks--Apologies for the snags. I'll be in my grave before I'm skilled at doing pictures. I've attached the picture as a pdf. This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pole mount maker 48 mods.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 171205 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 19 17:25:50 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:25:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount manufacturer w pic In-Reply-To: <168413748.318351.1613772760046@mail.yahoo.com> References: <168413748.318351.1613772760046.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <168413748.318351.1613772760046@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This might be an artistic rendering. It looks too good to be true for any wind/snow/seismic case. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 5:12 PM Bill Hennessy wrote: > [image: Inline image] > > Hi folks, Messed up on the first try. Here's the pic. > > This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. > Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the > racking? The photo was unattributed. > > regards, bill > > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1613772493523blob.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 764818 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1613772493523blob.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 764818 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Feb 19 17:31:39 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:31:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sketchup for Solar Shading Analysis Message-ID: Is anyone else using Sketchup for quick and dirty (yet surprisingly accurate) shading analyses? If so, I would be interested in trading notes/tips. I'm particularly interested in some rules of thumb regarding hard shading impacts during the early- and late-day in percentage terms. Residential analyses are not worth anything highly scientific for the average grid-tied client. Please contact me off-list. Here's the video output of an analysis I just whipped up for a client concerned about the 2-story house just to the east of his. https://www.youtube.com/embed/lxJygizGxq8 Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 19 19:21:53 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 19:21:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount manufacturer w pic In-Reply-To: References: <168413748.318351.1613772760046.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <168413748.318351.1613772760046@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7eb9dda9-d1bb-a935-421a-d1fa116e777a@solarray.com> I'd be very nervous about how much deflection you could see at the corners in high winds.  If the frame twists enough you could have modules break, or gaps between modules open up enough to lose the midclips and let modules loose.  I would take a look at MT Solar's multi-pole system, that starts really locking things in as you go big.  I've never worked on a single pole mount bigger than 16 modules that I felt good about. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/19/21 5:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > This might be an artistic rendering. It looks too good to be true for > any wind/snow/seismic case. > > Jason Szumlanski > > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 5:12 PM Bill Hennessy > wrote: > > Inline image > > Hi folks, Messed up on the first try. Here's the pic. > > This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a > single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or > experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. > > regards, bill > > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarjon at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 20:32:54 2021 From: solarjon at gmail.com (Jonathan Hill) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:32:54 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount manufacturer w pic In-Reply-To: <168413748.318351.1613772760046@mail.yahoo.com> References: <168413748.318351.1613772760046.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <168413748.318351.1613772760046@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5BF06F45-6548-4757-ADEF-C2A63B24DE61@gmail.com> I’m guessing Tamarack Solar? > On Feb 19, 2021, at 2:12 PM, Bill Hennessy wrote: > > <1613772493523blob.jpg> > > Hi folks, Messed up on the first try. Here's the pic. > > This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. > > regards, bill > > > Bill Hennessy > Berks Solar, LLC > 371 Centennial Rd > Mertztown, PA 19539 > > o 610 682 4300 > c 484 560 4666 > NABCEP certified installer > PA contractor #44411 > www.berkssolar.com > <1613772493523blob.jpg>_______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Fri Feb 19 20:37:39 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 20:37:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] third time charm In-Reply-To: <4b063ab881ddb430da6cd0278acfe19b@127.0.0.1> References: <4b063ab881ddb430da6cd0278acfe19b@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: What Jason said. I did a (3) 16 panel DPW TOP’s on a really steep hill (think about 50deg or more) for Wendell Berry years ago. The good folks at DPW told me then that I was getting the very last 16 mod TOP’s because of wind and seismic. If I recall, I had to use 12” sch80 and let me just say that some projects, even for super cool customers like Wendell, are better left to others lol. We did that job in the middle of an unusually cold and snowy winter- I shiver every time I think about it. All that to say, I have a hard time believing this pic is of a real install- could be wrong. But if it is then the moment on that pole has to be absolutely HUGE, even in a light breeze. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 19, 2021, at 6:50 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > I did a google pictures search and could not find anything that big. Really need a backside pix. I do not like using 8" poles because of their weight on a hill. The one in the picture must be 10" or larger. Gigundo pole mount! > > I give up but maybe someone else? Good Luck! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:49:52 +0000 (UTC), Bill Hennessy wrote: >> >> Hi folks--Apologies for the snags. I'll be in my grave before I'm skilled at doing pictures. I've attached the picture as a pdf. >> >> This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. >> >> regards, bill >> >> >> Bill Hennessy >> Berks Solar, LLC >> 371 Centennial Rd >> Mertztown, PA 19539 >> >> o 610 682 4300 >> c 484 560 4666 >> NABCEP certified installer >> PA contractor #44411 >> www.berkssolar.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Fri Feb 19 20:46:33 2021 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 01:46:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] pole mount manufacturer w pic In-Reply-To: <7eb9dda9-d1bb-a935-421a-d1fa116e777a@solarray.com> References: <168413748.318351.1613772760046.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <168413748.318351.1613772760046@mail.yahoo.com> , <7eb9dda9-d1bb-a935-421a-d1fa116e777a@solarray.com> Message-ID: I’ve done several polls that were 20 modules on one pole using MT Solar. I would highly recommend their product. That being said, that 10 inch schedule 80 steel pipe is a darn heavy... and you’re looking at well over 2 yards of cement for that one pipe. I wonder how heavy the pipe would need to be in order to support 48 modules…… and then how deep would the hole need to be... I’ve done somewhere around 40 MT Solar mounts ranging from 4 to 20 modules on single pole mounts, 32 modules on a 2 pole mount, and 36 modules on a 3 pole mount. They make a great product, but sometimes they have a little spatter from the welds that might need to be ground down a little bit. Thanks, Kienan ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 5:22 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] pole mount manufacturer w pic I'd be very nervous about how much deflection you could see at the corners in high winds. If the frame twists enough you could have modules break, or gaps between modules open up enough to lose the midclips and let modules loose. I would take a look at MT Solar's multi-pole system, that starts really locking things in as you go big. I've never worked on a single pole mount bigger than 16 modules that I felt good about. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/19/21 5:25 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: This might be an artistic rendering. It looks too good to be true for any wind/snow/seismic case. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Feb 19, 2021, 5:12 PM Bill Hennessy > wrote: [Inline image] Hi folks, Messed up on the first try. Here's the pic. This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience with the racking? The photo was unattributed. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Feb 19 22:55:28 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 20:55:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] third time charm In-Reply-To: References: <4b063ab881ddb430da6cd0278acfe19b@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hmm... As I read this I think of the 23 year old array of 18 BP90 modules that powers my own home. Back then modules were typically 36 125mm cells, and the standard dimension for these was 21" by 47". So I don't think of a 16-module or 18 module array as large. Mine is on an early Wattsun tracker (I leave the tracking turned off so that it'll still be working when the time comes to sell my home) on a 6" sch. 40 pole. Allan On 2/19/2021 6:37 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > What Jason said.  I did a (3) 16 panel DPW TOP’s on a really steep > hill (think about 50deg or more) for Wendell Berry years ago.  The > good folks at DPW told me then that I was getting the very last 16 mod > TOP’s because of wind and seismic.  If I recall, I had to use 12” > sch80 and let me just say that some projects, even for super cool > customers like Wendell, are better left to others lol.  We did that > job in the middle of an unusually cold and snowy winter- I shiver > every time I think about it.  All that to say, I have a hard time > believing this pic is of a real install- could be wrong.  But if it is > then the moment on that pole has to be absolutely HUGE, even in a > light breeze. > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE >> On Feb 19, 2021, at 6:50 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> wrote: >> >> I did a google pictures search and could not find anything that big. >> Really need a backside pix. I do not like using 8" poles because of >> their weight on a hill. The one in the picture must be 10" or larger. >> Gigundo pole mount! >> >> I give up but maybe someone else? Good Luck! >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar * >> >> On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:49:52 +0000 (UTC), Bill Hennessy >> wrote: >> >>> Hi folks--Apologies for the snags. I'll be in my grave before I'm >>> skilled at doing pictures. I've attached the picture as a pdf. >>> This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single >>> pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience >>> with the racking? The photo was unattributed. >>> regards, bill >>> Bill Hennessy >>> Berks Solar, LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Feb 19 23:02:12 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 21:02:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] third time charm In-Reply-To: <4b063ab881ddb430da6cd0278acfe19b@127.0.0.1> References: <1560275364.328948.1613774992667.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1560275364.328948.1613774992667@mail.yahoo.com> <4b063ab881ddb430da6cd0278acfe19b@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: My inner skeptic is whispering to me that it's a Photoshop. Notice that the array directly behind the closest one appears to be facing east of south, but its shadow is in line with the others. On 2/19/2021 4:50 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I did a google pictures search and could not find anything that big. > Really need a backside pix. I do not like using 8" poles because of > their weight on a hill. The one in the picture must be 10" or larger. > Gigundo pole mount! > > I give up but maybe someone else? Good Luck! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:49:52 +0000 (UTC), Bill Hennessy > wrote: > >> Hi folks--Apologies for the snags. I'll be in my grave before I'm >> skilled at doing pictures. I've attached the picture as a pdf. >> This mounting system looks pretty efficient--48 modules on a single >> pole. Does anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer or experience >> with the racking? The photo was unattributed. >> regards, bill >> Bill Hennessy >> Berks Solar, LLC >> 371 Centennial Rd >> Mertztown, PA 19539 >> >> o 610 682 4300 >> c 484 560 4666 >> NABCEP certified installer >> PA contractor #44411 >> www.berkssolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Feb 21 15:06:42 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:06:42 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof Message-ID: All, Apparently this is not necessarily a bad idea anymore (from what I recall some pv gurus saying a few years back), relevant to latitude and pitch of the roof. I have a client in Florida it might work for, and there in no room left on the ground or other roofs. Anyone have a resource or rules of thumb for such a thing? Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Sun Feb 21 16:07:07 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 15:07:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <050e01d70895$83b51130$8b1f3390$@solarcentex.com> Often can’t pick one’s roof so I’m not completely turned off to it any longer. With some clients, peak use in the summer (perhaps nat gas for winter) turns out that the north roof provides overall better offset of actual electric costs. Obviously, the lower the roof slope the better. Scot Arey Solar CenTex From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 2:07 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof All, Apparently this is not necessarily a bad idea anymore (from what I recall some pv gurus saying a few years back), relevant to latitude and pitch of the roof. I have a client in Florida it might work for, and there in no room left on the ground or other roofs. Anyone have a resource or rules of thumb for such a thing? Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Feb 21 16:09:17 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:09:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76a13351717034f1c0b063cc848b8c7a@mail.gmail.com> Kirk: One word: PV-Watts. Or is that two words? Plug in your values and see what you get. You can compare to any south facing scenario for reference. William Miller *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander, VSE *Sent:* Sunday, February 21, 2021 12:07 PM *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof All, Apparently this is not necessarily a bad idea anymore (from what I recall some pv gurus saying a few years back), relevant to latitude and pitch of the roof. I have a client in Florida it might work for, and there in no room left on the ground or other roofs. Anyone have a resource or rules of thumb for such a thing? *Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 16:40:30 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 16:40:30 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations Message-ID: Hi all, I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an electric crimper tool for battery lugs? I see that they can get expensive quickly, but a tool that cuts down on the struggle is a tool worth considering. Thanks in advance! -Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 17:27:57 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 14:27:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Low pitch, close to the tropic of cancer with a reverse tilt it works, you just need to consider the tilt to the south 15 degrees maybe, l have customer all over Hawaii and some are north low pitch because we are south of the tropic line the sun is actually in the north sky for a short part of the year. You just need to do the right engineering to see what you need Jerry On Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 1:00 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > All, > > Apparently this is not necessarily a bad idea anymore (from what I recall > some pv gurus saying a few years back), relevant to latitude and pitch of > the roof. I have a client in Florida it might work for, and there in no > room left on the ground or other roofs. Anyone have a resource or rules of > thumb for such a thing? > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Sun Feb 21 19:05:13 2021 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 17:05:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We bought the DeWalt version not too long ago. Makes great crimps and much easier to work with in tight spaces if you have too. Well worth the money... Chad Waits President-Net Zero Solar Cell: (520) 270-4873 On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:40 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi all, > > I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an electric crimper tool > for battery lugs? I see that they can get expensive quickly, but a tool > that cuts down on the struggle is a tool worth considering. > > Thanks in advance! > > -Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart at besolar.bm Sun Feb 21 19:15:46 2021 From: stuart at besolar.bm (Stuart Kriendler) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 20:15:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember the first time I saw East-West racking on a roof from an airplane some years ago. I was initially confused as it was the North facing side of the roof and the south side was a typically jam-packed flush mount install. Quite quickly I smiled thinking that's one way to take advantage of limited roof space and substantially decreasing PV prices. This method, the East West rack up on the North side, can be advantageous to trying to 'back rack' the North side of an array to face south again, especially in high wind areas with multiple rows where you have to leave a massive space for inter row shading, much less the inevitable aesthetic comments. ;-) Best of luck, the attached shows a photo of how E-West racking on the North roof can work. On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 6:41 PM wrote: > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: PV on north roof (Jerry Shafer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 14:27:57 -0800 > From: Jerry Shafer > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof > Message-ID: > HgJKEgqgnA3baHGgKmg-+ydkeGNjZvjbfg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Wrenches > Low pitch, close to the tropic of cancer with a reverse tilt it works, you > just need to consider the tilt to the south 15 degrees maybe, l have > customer all over Hawaii and some are north low pitch because we are south > of the tropic line the sun is actually in the north sky for a short part of > the year. You just need to do the right engineering to see what you need > Jerry > > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 1:00 PM Kirk Herander, VSE > wrote: > > > All, > > > > Apparently this is not necessarily a bad idea anymore (from what I recall > > some pv gurus saying a few years back), relevant to latitude and pitch of > > the roof. I have a client in Florida it might work for, and there in no > > room left on the ground or other roofs. Anyone have a resource or rules > of > > thumb for such a thing? > > > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > > > *www.vermont.solar* > > < > https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > > > 802.863.1202 > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210221/fc17957e/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 14, Issue 62 > ******************************************* > -- *Stuart Kriendler | Managing Director * 48 St. Johns Road, Pembroke, HM 07, Bermuda C: 1.441.599.2105 <(441)%20599-2105> | O: 1.441.279.5907 <(441)%20279-5907> | www.BEsolar.bm [image: BE Solar.bm] *OUR VISION: An efficient Bermuda powered by affordable renewable energy. * *OUR MISSION: To provide the highest quality energy solutions accessible to all. * The information contained in this transmission including any and all attached files is strictly private and confidential and is intended solely for the i ndividual(s) or entity named above in the To and Copy fields. If you received this transmission in error, please delete it from your computer system and notify us immediately. If you are not an intended recipient, please be advised that any use, including viewing, printing, disseminating, distributing, copying and re-transmitting of the information contained in this transmission including any and all attached files is strictly prohibited. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2017-12-20 at 11.46.59 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 30112 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: download.jfif Type: image/jpeg Size: 12050 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Feb 21 17:57:24 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 17:57:24 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We do it from time to time. Just run the numbers. Many clients demand 100% offset and don't care about efficiency. Resources: https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/solar-electricity-output-based-on-tilt-and-orientation/ https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/can-i-put-solar-panels-on-my-north-roof-in-southwest-florida/ If your client is in SW Florida I'd be happy to help in any way I can. Contact me off list. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 4:00 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > All, > > Apparently this is not necessarily a bad idea anymore (from what I recall > some pv gurus saying a few years back), relevant to latitude and pitch of > the roof. I have a client in Florida it might work for, and there in no > room left on the ground or other roofs. Anyone have a resource or rules of > thumb for such a thing? > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 21:02:44 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 21:02:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chad, what ballpark price for the Dewalt crimped. Does it handle 4/0 heavy duty lugs. I’m getting too old for my hand crumper. John Blittersdorf On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:05 PM Chad Waits wrote: > We bought the DeWalt version not too long ago. Makes great crimps and much > easier to work with in tight spaces if you have too. > > Well worth the money... > > > Chad Waits > President-Net Zero Solar > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:40 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an electric crimper tool >> for battery lugs? I see that they can get expensive quickly, but a tool >> that cuts down on the struggle is a tool worth considering. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> -Chris >> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Feb 22 00:20:08 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 21:20:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John,             If you can make up the cables in your shop, I've been putting one of the handles of the BA hand crimper in the vice. You can then put your all on the 'free' handle, much better for 4/0 magnalugs.  Out in the field it is a grunt for sure.  Sorry no idea about electric. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From chadwaits at netzerosolar.net Mon Feb 22 06:58:09 2021 From: chadwaits at netzerosolar.net (Chad Waits) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 04:58:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it was about $3K with dies but we also go a free DeWalt large wire stripper with it as well. And yes, it does 4/0 battery lugs like a champ. Chad Waits President-Net Zero Solar Cell: (520) 270-4873 On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:03 PM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > Chad, what ballpark price for the Dewalt crimped. Does it handle 4/0 > heavy duty lugs. I’m getting too old for my hand crumper. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:05 PM Chad Waits > wrote: > >> We bought the DeWalt version not too long ago. Makes great crimps and >> much easier to work with in tight spaces if you have too. >> >> Well worth the money... >> >> >> Chad Waits >> President-Net Zero Solar >> Cell: (520) 270-4873 >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:40 PM Chris Sparadeo >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an electric crimper tool >>> for battery lugs? I see that they can get expensive quickly, but a tool >>> that cuts down on the struggle is a tool worth considering. >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> -Chris >>> -- >>> Chris Sparadeo >>> >>> >>> C_802-369-4458 >>> H_802-728-3059 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Feb 22 07:04:34 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 07:04:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations Message-ID: I picked up a Temco hydraulic crimper a year ago and have been very happy with it.Quite reasonably priced too.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Chad WaitsDate: Mon, Feb 22, 2021 6:58 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper RecommendationsI think it was about $3K with dies but we also go a free DeWalt large wire stripper with it as well. And yes, it does 4/0 battery lugs like a champ. Chad WaitsPresident-Net Zero SolarCell: (520) 270-4873On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:03 PM John Blittersdorf wrote:Chad, what ballpark price for the Dewalt crimped.  Does it handle 4/0 heavy duty lugs.   I’m getting too old for my hand crumper.  John BlittersdorfOn Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:05 PM Chad Waits wrote:We bought the DeWalt version not too long ago. Makes great crimps and much easier to work with in tight spaces if you have too.Well worth the money...Chad WaitsPresident-Net Zero SolarCell: (520) 270-4873On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:40 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote:Hi all,I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an electric crimper tool for battery lugs? I see that they can get expensive quickly, but a tool that cuts down on the struggle is a tool worth considering.Thanks in advance!-Chris -- Chris SparadeoC_802-369-4458H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Feb 22 11:22:43 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:22:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d424930-5357-a600-4e33-a770a04c2458@solarray.com> We started buying premade cables, and only do a few crimps per job now.  Don't miss cable making at all. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/22/21 6:58 AM, Chad Waits wrote: > I think it was about $3K with dies but we also go a free DeWalt large > wire stripper with it as well. And yes, it does 4/0 battery lugs like > a champ. > > Chad Waits > President-Net Zero Solar > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:03 PM John Blittersdorf > > wrote: > > Chad, what ballpark price for the Dewalt crimped.  Does it handle > 4/0 heavy duty lugs.   I’m getting too old for my hand crumper. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:05 PM Chad Waits > > > wrote: > > We bought the DeWalt version not too long ago. Makes great > crimps and much easier to work with in tight spaces if you > have too. > > Well worth the money... > > > Chad Waits > President-Net Zero Solar > Cell: (520) 270-4873 > > > > On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:40 PM Chris Sparadeo > > > wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an > electric crimper tool for battery lugs? I see that they > can get expensive quickly, but a tool that cuts down on > the struggle is a tool worth considering. > > Thanks in advance! > > -Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 22 16:59:37 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 13:59:37 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600vdc A or B switch Message-ID: Anyone know of an A or B switch rated 600vdc, say 30 adc that is available? In the past I have used these below. They have stopped making or it is unavailable. I also have used 2 of the disco's but it is a bit clunky. Nice to be metal like a Square D! Thank-you ! https://www.industrialcontroldirect.com/dc-disconnect-si16-pel64r-4b-p-4083.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wWy-XIBBc-KxyUfCAQ2_sDgUG2kfd_XHeo-vD_9KDK9j8oamYhsv2ShoCywoQAvD_BwE Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Feb 22 18:52:14 2021 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:52:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600vdc A or B switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's big and expensive, but you can do a SQD DTU361. At least that part number should get you on the right track. You are looking for a double pole double throw switch, correct? Cheers, Dave On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:59 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Anyone know of an A or B switch rated 600vdc, say 30 adc that is available? > > In the past I have used these below. They have stopped making or it is > unavailable. I also have used 2 of the disco's but it is a bit clunky. Nice > to be metal like a Square D! Thank-you ! > > > https://www.industrialcontroldirect.com/dc-disconnect-si16-pel64r-4b-p-4083.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wWy-XIBBc-KxyUfCAQ2_sDgUG2kfd_XHeo-vD_9KDK9j8oamYhsv2ShoCywoQAvD_BwE > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Feb 22 19:10:51 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 16:10:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600vdc A or B switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2c110370202d3a189cfa8b14064a30aa@127.0.0.1> I will search SQD and see if I can get a smaller than 400Adc. 30ADC switch rating would be fine. Really just need single throw to select select where solar DC goes. One path to the grid inverter, and one path to the mppt-600vdc. Thanks Dave! --Dave Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:52:14 -0500, Dave Tedeyan wrote: It's big and expensive, but you can do a SQD DTU361. At least that part number should get you on the right track. You are looking for a double pole double throw switch, correct? Cheers, Dave On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:59 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Anyone know of an A or B switch rated 600vdc, say 30 adc that is available? In the past I have used these below. They have stopped making or it is unavailable. I also have used 2 of the disco's but it is a bit clunky. Nice to be metal like a Square D! Thank-you ! https://www.industrialcontroldirect.com/dc-disconnect-si16-pel64r-4b-p-4083.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wWy-XIBBc-KxyUfCAQ2_sDgUG2kfd_XHeo-vD_9KDK9j8oamYhsv2ShoCywoQAvD_BwE [4] Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [6] text 209 813 0060 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [4] https://www.industrialcontroldirect.com/dc-disconnect-si16-pel64r-4b-p-4083.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wWy-XIBBc-KxyUfCAQ2_sDgUG2kfd_XHeo-vD_9KDK9j8oamYhsv2ShoCywoQAvD_BwE [5] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Feb 22 19:42:50 2021 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 19:42:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600vdc A or B switch In-Reply-To: <2c110370202d3a189cfa8b14064a30aa@127.0.0.1> References: <2c110370202d3a189cfa8b14064a30aa@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave, That is actually exactly how I used this one. It is only rated for 30A. Some sites will only list it for 600V AC, but it is also 600VDC rated as well. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 7:10 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I will search SQD and see if I can get a smaller than 400Adc. 30ADC switch > rating would be fine. Really just need single throw to select select where > solar DC goes. One path to the grid inverter, and one path to the > mppt-600vdc. Thanks Dave! --Dave > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 18:52:14 -0500, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > It's big and expensive, but you can do a SQD DTU361. At least that part > number should get you on the right track. You are looking for a double pole > double throw switch, correct? > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:59 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Anyone know of an A or B switch rated 600vdc, say 30 adc that is >> available? >> >> In the past I have used these below. They have stopped making or it is >> unavailable. I also have used 2 of the disco's but it is a bit clunky. Nice >> to be metal like a Square D! Thank-you ! >> >> >> https://www.industrialcontroldirect.com/dc-disconnect-si16-pel64r-4b-p-4083.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wWy-XIBBc-KxyUfCAQ2_sDgUG2kfd_XHeo-vD_9KDK9j8oamYhsv2ShoCywoQAvD_BwE >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Mon Feb 22 23:17:56 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 20:17:56 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600vdc A or B switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B3879F7-B33B-4196-AEF5-DAA9B1F6AC3E@me.com> Greetings Dave, You’re likely using the Schneider high voltage controller but you know that Morningstar offers the Tristar MPPT 600 with the high voltage transfer switch as an option right? Too bad they don’t sell it as a stand alone option though. Nick A Lucchese > On Feb 22, 2021, at 1:59 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Anyone know of an A or B switch rated 600vdc, say 30 adc that is available? > > In the past I have used these below. They have stopped making or it is unavailable. I also have used 2 of the disco's but it is a bit clunky. Nice to be metal like a Square D! Thank-you ! > > https://www.industrialcontroldirect.com/dc-disconnect-si16-pel64r-4b-p-4083.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAyc2BBhAaEiwA44-wWy-XIBBc-KxyUfCAQ2_sDgUG2kfd_XHeo-vD_9KDK9j8oamYhsv2ShoCywoQAvD_BwE > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 10:41:26 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:41:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Chris, When our company began installing utility-scale PV projects, we purchased a Milwaukee M18 FORCE LOGIC crimper ( https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Power-Tools/Electrical-Installation/Crimpers). I haven't personally worked with any other brands of electric crimpers, so I cannot offer any comparative feedback, but as you said it definitely "cut down on the struggle" and quickly became a prized tool amongst our installers. Since we worked with a wide variety of equipment (inverters, switchboards, transformers, etc.) with a variety of conductor sizes, we opted to purchase one of the accompanying multi-size die kits. All in, I recall the crimper + die kit costing us around $3000. I'm guessing you would be able to bypass the whole-hog die kit and instead purchase just a few different die sizes for your battery lugs - and thereby save some money. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 4:40 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an electric crimper tool > for battery lugs? I see that they can get expensive quickly, but a tool > that cuts down on the struggle is a tool worth considering. > > Thanks in advance! > > -Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 23 17:07:28 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 14:07:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure. Message-ID: <0620ddff7d795d116934b66a9203e6e1@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test I had promised to do. The answer is, add water first. Here is the report on my test: Link Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity: 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to bring water to top of moss-guard if needed. 2. Run Equalizing charge. 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended level. 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte. 5. Test and record Specific Gravity. It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out… William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 17:31:55 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:31:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure. In-Reply-To: <0620ddff7d795d116934b66a9203e6e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <0620ddff7d795d116934b66a9203e6e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge? Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:27 PM William Miller wrote: > Wrenches: > > > > If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, > should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test I had > promised to do. The answer is, add water first. > > > > Here is the report on my test: Link > > > > > Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity: > > 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to > bring water to top of moss-guard if needed. > > 2. Run Equalizing charge. > > 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended > level. > > 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix > electrolyte. > > 5. Test and record Specific Gravity. > > > > It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out… > > > > William > > > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mick at abrahamsolar.com Tue Feb 23 17:39:01 2021 From: mick at abrahamsolar.com (Mick Abraham) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:39:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600vdc A or B switch Message-ID: Hi, that SQD DTU361 suggested by Dave Tedeyan appears to have a center "off" position. The 600v Morningstar charge controller with A:B selectability doesn't have an "off" for the incoming PV. "The Wrench List is the Bomb!" Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Landline: 970-731-4675 Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584 ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 23 18:12:11 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:12:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Open the link. It’s all there. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > >  > William, > How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge? > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > >> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:27 PM William Miller wrote: >> Wrenches: >> >> >> >> If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test I had promised to do. The answer is, add water first. >> >> >> >> Here is the report on my test: Link >> >> >> >> Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity: >> >> 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to bring water to top of moss-guard if needed. >> >> 2. Run Equalizing charge. >> >> 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended level. >> >> 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte. >> >> 5. Test and record Specific Gravity. >> >> >> >> It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out… >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 18:55:34 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:55:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4315C8AD-DBCE-42FD-B23F-64EC264111A1@gmail.com> Hi William I’m wondering what specific batteries you did this test on Thx Jay > On Feb 23, 2021, at 4:32 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Open the link. It’s all there. > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > >>> On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >>> >>  >> William, >> How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge? >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> >>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:27 PM William Miller wrote: >>> Wrenches: >>> >>> >>> >>> If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test I had promised to do. The answer is, add water first. >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is the report on my test: Link >>> >>> >>> >>> Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity: >>> >>> 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to bring water to top of moss-guard if needed. >>> >>> 2. Run Equalizing charge. >>> >>> 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended level. >>> >>> 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte. >>> >>> 5. Test and record Specific Gravity. >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out… >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Feb 23 23:50:58 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:50:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure. In-Reply-To: <4315C8AD-DBCE-42FD-B23F-64EC264111A1@gmail.com> References: <4315C8AD-DBCE-42FD-B23F-64EC264111A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: US Batteries L16s. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Feb 23, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Jay wrote: > >  > Hi William > > I’m wondering what specific batteries you did this test on > > Thx > Jay > >>> On Feb 23, 2021, at 4:32 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> >> Open the link. It’s all there. >> >> William Miller >> www.millersolar.com >> >>>> On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> William, >>> How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge? >>> Howie >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >>> 802-272-0004 >>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:27 PM William Miller wrote: >>>> Wrenches: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test I had promised to do. The answer is, add water first. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here is the report on my test: Link >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity: >>>> >>>> 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to bring water to top of moss-guard if needed. >>>> >>>> 2. Run Equalizing charge. >>>> >>>> 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended level. >>>> >>>> 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte. >>>> >>>> 5. Test and record Specific Gravity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 09:12:06 2021 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 09:12:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <696EDA87-0D83-4CD1-B094-F939736364E3@gmail.com> That’s the procedure I’ve been using for years William, it gives us the best chance of being accurate. Just as a note I get a 2 gallon sprayer from Home Depot or somewhere (get the one with the plastic rod, the spark show is not worth it) and use that to put distilled water into the batteries. it’s a lot faster than a glug glug jug and a lot safer than a funnel Just some thoughts, Bob Ellison > On Feb 23, 2021, at 6:12 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Open the link. It’s all there. > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > >> On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> >>  >> William, >> How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge? >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> >>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:27 PM William Miller wrote: >>> Wrenches: >>> >>> >>> >>> If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test I had promised to do. The answer is, add water first. >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is the report on my test: Link >>> >>> >>> >>> Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity: >>> >>> 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to bring water to top of moss-guard if needed. >>> >>> 2. Run Equalizing charge. >>> >>> 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended level. >>> >>> 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte. >>> >>> 5. Test and record Specific Gravity. >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out… >>> >>> >>> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Feb 24 10:11:28 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 07:11:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure. In-Reply-To: <696EDA87-0D83-4CD1-B094-F939736364E3@gmail.com> References: <696EDA87-0D83-4CD1-B094-F939736364E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5F0C0484-7F98-4268-A303-9FD9BAD4FB79@millersolar.com> Bob: We are way beyond putting our faces over an open battery cell with a flashlight. We use professional auto-stop fill systems from Philadelphia Scientific. I highly recommend the X-Gun with hydrofill cart. https://www.phlsci.com/product-lines/battery-watering-gun/model-gunx/ Thanks though. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Feb 24, 2021, at 6:12 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > >  > That’s the procedure I’ve been using for years William, it gives us the best chance of being accurate. > > Just as a note I get a 2 gallon sprayer from Home Depot or somewhere (get the one with the plastic rod, the spark show is not worth it) and use that to put distilled water into the batteries. it’s a lot faster than a glug glug jug and a lot safer than a funnel > > Just some thoughts, > Bob Ellison > > > >> On Feb 23, 2021, at 6:12 PM, William Miller wrote: >> >> Open the link. It’s all there. >> >> William Miller >> www.millersolar.com >> >>>> On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> William, >>> How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge? >>> Howie >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >>> 802-272-0004 >>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:27 PM William Miller wrote: >>>> Wrenches: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test I had promised to do. The answer is, add water first. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here is the report on my test: Link >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity: >>>> >>>> 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to bring water to top of moss-guard if needed. >>>> >>>> 2. Run Equalizing charge. >>>> >>>> 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended level. >>>> >>>> 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte. >>>> >>>> 5. Test and record Specific Gravity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 24 11:04:06 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 08:04:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure. In-Reply-To: References: <4315C8AD-DBCE-42FD-B23F-64EC264111A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a5397584c705f9397ed2622a3557d6e@127.0.0.1> Ummm, I think you need to add run a normal battery charge cycle first to your list. Pretty dangerous to EQ a bank without doing bulk/absorb first, especially if you are at a clients house! You really do not know the state of the battery! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:50:58 -0800, William Miller wrote: US Batteries L16s. William Miller www.millersolar.com On Feb 23, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Jay wrote: Hi William I'm wondering what specific batteries you did this test on Thx Jay On Feb 23, 2021, at 4:32 PM, William Miller wrote: Open the link. It's all there. William Miller www.millersolar.com On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: William, How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge? Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;"> Wrenches: If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test I had promised to do. The answer is, add water first. Here is the report on my test: Link [4] Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity: 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to bring water to top of moss-guard if needed. 2. Run Equalizing charge. 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended level. 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte. 5. Test and record Specific Gravity. It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out... William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [5] CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:william at millersolar.com [4] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/26%20Specific_Graviity/Specific_Gravity.html [5] http://www.millersolar.com/ [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Feb 24 13:13:57 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:13:57 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? Message-ID: Hi all, I’m sure we’re not alone in this so I thought I’d find out what you all do in these situations: We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair their system. I ask the standard questions you’d expect and also for pictures of their system. Here’s the pic (below). My question is what would you say to this person? Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 Vice President MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image_6546160.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 96218 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Feb 24 13:22:45 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:22:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? Message-ID: <552jhnmhh7d9skp54mplb2ef.1614190946619@email.lge.com> Time and materials, or quote a replacement...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jeremy CoxonDate: Wed, Feb 24, 2021 1:17 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?Hi all,I’m sure we’re not alone in this so I thought I’d find out what you all do in these situations:  We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair their system.  I ask the standard questions you’d expect and also for pictures of their system.  Here’s the pic (below).  My question is what would you say to this person?  Best Regards,Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21Vice PresidentMWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Feb 24 13:43:11 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 10:43:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?What_would_you_do/say=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1aff1d17fdc1f3bb2c13c237e839f12b@127.0.0.1> Since it would not pass a home insurance or building department inspection, it would have to be start fresh. Once you get your hands on it, it is yours. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:13:57 -0500, Jeremy Coxon wrote: Hi all, I'm sure we're not alone in this so I thought I'd find out what you all do in these situations: We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair their system. I ask the standard questions you'd expect and also for pictures of their system. Here's the pic (below). My question is what would you say to this person? Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 Vice President MWBE Certified Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Feb 24 14:02:06 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 14:02:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: <1aff1d17fdc1f3bb2c13c237e839f12b@127.0.0.1> References: <1aff1d17fdc1f3bb2c13c237e839f12b@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <94266a90-32a5-e350-7b26-7df00d4c74e9@solarray.com> I concur with Dave: Delete and start over.  Its actually faster and cheaper than trying to figure out why they did things the way they did, and having callbacks where you discover more problems you didn't see the first time, etc.  I'll reuse as much of the stuff as I can, even cable, but that needs a full DC load center like an E Panel. Also as Dave said, once you touch it, you own it.  If they can't afford to have you redo it, then you can't afford to take it under your wing.  Time and materials is the way I do these, because you never know what else you might find on day 3 of the rebuild.  I've gotten to the point now, that I won't even take these on, unless we are providing a majority of new equipment:  Adding to the array, replacing the batteries, new inverter, switching to 48v, etc. Every compromise you get talked into now, you will regret later. I've come back 10 years after, and had my techs say: " Who did this$#@%!"  and I had to hang my head in shame and explain how we were trying to work with what was there, blah, blah.  I will repeat: once you touch it, you own it.  Your local reputation is represented in the work that you leave behind. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/24/21 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Since it would not pass a home insurance or building department > inspection, it would have to be start fresh. Once you get your hands > on it, it is yours. Good Luck! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:13:57 -0500, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I'm sure we're not alone in this so I thought I'd find out what you >> all do in these situations:  We were contacted by a person that wants >> us to repair their system.  I ask the standard questions you'd expect >> and also for pictures of their system.  Here's the pic (below).  My >> question is what would you say to this person? >> >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> Vice President >> MWBE Certified > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Feb 24 14:29:00 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 14:29:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: <94266a90-32a5-e350-7b26-7df00d4c74e9@solarray.com> References: <1aff1d17fdc1f3bb2c13c237e839f12b@127.0.0.1> <94266a90-32a5-e350-7b26-7df00d4c74e9@solarray.com> Message-ID: Ditto to Ray and I would add that you have no idea how the batteries were treated or mistreated. I would insist on replacing the batteries or having a very clear and strong disclaimer that you take no responsibility for the condition of the batteries or their longevity. Unfortunately, I had a similar looking system in front of me on Monday and the 48V battery bank was sitting at three volts. I could not evaluate the Radian or the Mate which the customer reported not working properly prior to the battery getting depleted. How are you supposed to work with something like that? I can replace the battery, but it could open up a whole can of worms with other equipment being inoperable.In fact, that is likely the reason the batteries got depleted in the first place. These are no win situations. Jason On Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 2:02 PM Ray wrote: > I concur with Dave: Delete and start over. Its actually faster and > cheaper than trying to figure out why they did things the way they did, and > having callbacks where you discover more problems you didn't see the first > time, etc. I'll reuse as much of the stuff as I can, even cable, but that > needs a full DC load center like an E Panel. > > Also as Dave said, once you touch it, you own it. If they can't afford to > have you redo it, then you can't afford to take it under your wing. Time > and materials is the way I do these, because you never know what else you > might find on day 3 of the rebuild. I've gotten to the point now, that I > won't even take these on, unless we are providing a majority of new > equipment: Adding to the array, replacing the batteries, new inverter, > switching to 48v, etc. > > Every compromise you get talked into now, you will regret later. I've > come back 10 years after, and had my techs say: " Who did this$#@%!" and I > had to hang my head in shame and explain how we were trying to work with > what was there, blah, blah. I will repeat: once you touch it, you own it. > Your local reputation is represented in the work that you leave behind. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/24/21 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Since it would not pass a home insurance or building department > inspection, it would have to be start fresh. Once you get your hands on it, > it is yours. Good Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:13:57 -0500, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm sure we're not alone in this so I thought I'd find out what you all do > in these situations: We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair > their system. I ask the standard questions you'd expect and also for > pictures of their system. Here's the pic (below). My question is what > would you say to this person? > > > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > Vice President > MWBE Certified > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dustin at sol-ark.com Wed Feb 24 16:36:41 2021 From: dustin at sol-ark.com (Dustin Douglas) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 15:36:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues In-Reply-To: <5B9207EA-A68B-4D69-8082-61B5857B71FD@me.com> References: <5F2998BE-9E10-4D7D-9325-92F5B439A54E@gmail.com> <9bb40dc24bc5a4dc1a7dd2ea66da6340@127.0.0.1> <5B9207EA-A68B-4D69-8082-61B5857B71FD@me.com> Message-ID: <177d5f901a1.ae7b5ade513715.1320884617798419555@sol-ark.com> Wrenches, You can have 4800W on L1 and 0W on L2. It has huge 240V peak power. But you are correct that some 120V inductive loads >3/4hp can be an issue. We recommend rewiring those massive motors to 240V (most are convertible on the motor). The 1400W limit is with DC Loads. A heat gun on high is an AC load but on low, it only uses 1/2 of the sinewave (DC load). Our limit for DC loads (hair dryer, leaf blower, drill, blender, curling iron, heat gun only on low setting) is 1400W. Thank you and have a blessed day, Dustin Douglas Engineering Support Lead (972)575-8875 ext. 108 http://www.Sol-Ark.com ---- On Tue, 09 Feb 2021 23:23:22 -0600 Nick A Lucchese wrote ---- I agree with many of you on waiting awhile longer until these issues are sorted out. While I definitely think there is plenty of room beyond our usual favorites for another robust battery based inverter to offer I don’t intend to embark on another frustrating adventure at mostly my expense. At this point I’m more excited for the Midnite inverters more than anything and know once they’re released I won’t feel like I made a mistake. Meanwhile I’ll definitely be sending wishes of success to Sol-Ark. I’ve heard a lot of good things and will remain optimistic and hopeful it’s shortcomings will be resolved soon without needing to stack multiple units or a transformer. Nick A Lucchese On Feb 9, 2021, at 12:17 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Yes that has happened with 2 of mine Jerry.  I like the Transformer Devils that I know. Might check these out in 2 or 3 years. The whole all in one does not really appeal to me either but I will keep an open mind, in 2 or 3 years!    Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:19:44 -0800, Jerry Shafer wrote: It is also interesting how sol ark sells over the counter to end users and also through distributors but at nearly the same price so it makes it difficult for our distributors to carry the sol ark products. Jerry On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 7:42 AM Jay wrote: It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can't run a 15 amp 120v air compressor I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn't mention if there is a fix coming. I guess I'll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1611331343167017_121312429.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 46546 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Feb 24 16:45:28 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:45:28 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gosh,  What could possibly go wrong? I would offer my service to remove and replace this pile of.... and then discuss what they need a PV system to power with them filling out a load sheet, essentially start from scratch.  Provide an estimate (if you get that far), If they are not interested in going this route then game over. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 2/24/2021 10:13 AM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > Hi all, > > I’m sure we’re not alone in this so I thought I’d find out what you > all do in these situations:  We were contacted by a person that wants > us to repair their system.  I ask the standard questions you’d expect > and also for pictures of their system.  Here’s the pic (below).  My > question is what would you say to this person? > > > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > Vice President > MWBE Certified > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image_6546160.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 96218 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Feb 24 17:40:12 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:40:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Message-ID: Thanks guys, it was more of a check to see if I’m just being too, oh I don’t know - cautious. We get a fair number of these calls and we do exactly as you all do, i.e. either start over or pass more often (these types of systems are done in shoe strings anyway so they don’t want to hear our answers or prices). Maybe 15yrs ago I would have helped out, but lots of hard knocks since then. I will add that it’s a really sad state of affairs when we come across these and they weren’t just homeowner DIY, instead they were “installed” by other solar contractors. That’s a whole different story. I always seem to hang on to pics like this, some kind of morbid fascination I guess. They make great slide show material as a compare and conrast. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone From tump at swnl.net Wed Feb 24 17:44:51 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:44:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F5F9DF8-F07C-45D8-BB3A-8505E9E0B8AF@swnl.net> It shows you have been in business for 15 years? RUN don’t walk. REDO once you put a wrench to this YOU and your 15 years can quickly find yourself out of biz. > On Feb 24, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > Hi all, > > I’m sure we’re not alone in this so I thought I’d find out what you all do in these situations: We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair their system. I ask the standard questions you’d expect and also for pictures of their system. Here’s the pic (below). My question is what would you say to this person? > > > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > Vice President > MWBE Certified > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 18:22:16 2021 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:22:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <928C5584-15E4-4AF7-8172-9A2CDB44B7C9@gmail.com> Many moons ago I asked this same list the same question and got about the same answer. I tried to help one customer, got sued for not “listening” to them when they told me what to do, even though we fixed the issue. Spent money on attorneys, missed days of work..... That was it for me ever doing that type of work again. Now, if I was given a chance to do it over, I’d have better paper work in place, all that. Much of the trouble could’ve been avoided if I had been more suspicious of people and better protected. I don’t mess with this and I get a handful of opportunities for remote hunting/fishing projects like this. I just don’t mess with it at all anymore. I can’t see ever doing it again. Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 24, 2021, at 3:43 PM, frenergy wrote: > >  > Gosh, What could possibly go wrong? > > I would offer my service to remove and replace this pile of.... and then discuss what they need a PV system to power with them filling out a load sheet, essentially start from scratch. Provide an estimate (if you get that far), If they are not interested in going this route then game over. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 2/24/2021 10:13 AM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I’m sure we’re not alone in this so I thought I’d find out what you all do in these situations: We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair their system. I ask the standard questions you’d expect and also for pictures of their system. Here’s the pic (below). My question is what would you say to this person? >> >> >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> Vice President >> MWBE Certified >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 18:39:21 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:39:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: <1F5F9DF8-F07C-45D8-BB3A-8505E9E0B8AF@swnl.net> References: <1F5F9DF8-F07C-45D8-BB3A-8505E9E0B8AF@swnl.net> Message-ID: I tackle this sort of work frequently, as I only work off the grid and mostly deal with smaller systems for cabins, fishing and hunting lodges, and such, often for land buyers/sellers, Realtors, and insurance agents. By far the most common violation I see out in the bush is lack of a vented battery enclosure and lack of conduit and enclosures, as shown here. Obviously a very detailed system report is in order, and a big caveat about those batteries; they don't look well-cared for. The Midnite breaker panel is a keeper, enclosure for the charge controller, some flex conduit all around and a Midnite Mini DC box with breaker would give the shunt a home and neaten things up quickly. Then after commissioning I'd stick some data acquisition on it to get a feel for those batteries. >From my perspective, this is a pretty typical situation in remote areas, and would take less than a day's work to tighten up. I AM assuming that charge controller and inverter are UL listed, though. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor™ for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector™ Certified Professional Inspector™ d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 20:16:03 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:16:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, I run into situations this this all am the time. Misinformed DIY work strikes again. Luckily, as PV installers, we have an out. We can quickly and easily point to the NEC and tell the customer that there are certain codes and standers we must adhere to. Siting code infractions and giving tangible pathways of corrective measure is key. Outlining a game plan in writing and explicitly listing what is not included in your scope of work (i.e. everything downstream of the MDP) is an important step in documenting the process. If the customer refuses these upgrades or wants to cut corners, don’t lose sleep over it and move on with life. You’ll be better off for it. Best, Chris On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 7:32 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > Thanks guys, it was more of a check to see if I’m just being too, oh I > don’t know - cautious. We get a fair number of these calls and we do > exactly as you all do, i.e. either start over or pass more often (these > types of systems are done in shoe strings anyway so they don’t want to hear > our answers or prices). Maybe 15yrs ago I would have helped out, but lots > of hard knocks since then. I will add that it’s a really sad state of > affairs when we come across these and they weren’t just homeowner DIY, > instead they were “installed” by other solar contractors. That’s a whole > different story. I always seem to hang on to pics like this, some kind of > morbid fascination I guess. They make great slide show material as a > compare and conrast. > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 20:20:01 2021 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:20:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? Message-ID: I’ll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. The “can you cob this back together for $200?” job is a non starter. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Thu Feb 25 08:40:18 2021 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 08:40:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie solar behind a generator Message-ID: We are installing 25kW of PV on a service with an existing backup generator (Eaton 30KW) and auto transfer switch. Because of the remote location of the generator and transfer switch, we can not easily connect on the grid-side of the transfer switch as we usually do (without cutting a very long trench.) So we're looking for a way to lock out the solar during generator use. And then, ideally, reconnect the solar automatically when the grid is restored. Is there an off-the-shelf product available at this point to accomplish this? I see a thread on here from a couple years ago that recommended the Generac SMM for this type of scenario. Any current thoughts on this approach? Any suggestions would be appreciated. -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 direct: 802-318-7003 nponzio at buildingenergyus.com http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 09:31:40 2021 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 06:31:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie solar behind a generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8458C68A-D71E-4C94-85E9-48A8097DBABB@gmail.com> The Generac solution has worked well for me. Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Feb 25, 2021, at 5:40 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote: > >  > We are installing 25kW of PV on a service with an existing backup generator (Eaton 30KW) and auto transfer switch. Because of the remote location of the generator and transfer switch, we can not easily connect on the grid-side of the transfer switch as we usually do (without cutting a very long trench.) So we're looking for a way to lock out the solar during generator use. And then, ideally, reconnect the solar automatically when the grid is restored. > > Is there an off-the-shelf product available at this point to accomplish this? > > I see a thread on here from a couple years ago that recommended the Generac SMM for this type of scenario. Any current thoughts on this approach? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > direct: 802-318-7003 > nponzio at buildingenergyus.com > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Feb 25 10:11:30 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 08:11:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00bb01d70b88$802846e0$8078d4a0$@solarwork.com> Succinctly put & thank you! Add to that "I did it myself what do you think?" Learning to walk away is probably one of the hardest lessons in the solar business I have had to learn (years ago). I just had a request to add batteries to a11 KW Solar Edge system that was according to the phone call that was sold to "to supposed to back up his house" without batteries??? The first time the power went out he was upset?? How do you buy a solar backup system & not know you needed batteries? Red Flag #1 This site is 9 hours away from my shop & he bragged about asking the electrical inspector during the original installation to "find something" so that the original installer would have to do a 26 hour round trip to the site. Red Flag #2 I laid out the inspection trip to do an analysis & layout of the conversion & the associated costs & have not heard back for 3 weeks. I was doing all I could to not be rude & realistically honest as to what it was going to take to pull all the SolarEdge equipment out (he wanted me to take it as trade-in towards the revamp on the system). Junk installs - Being able to say that a system would not pass inspection & therefore probably will VOID their homeowners insurance in the event of a fire related or not to the solar installation is a safe, honest & effective start with a junk installation request. You FEEL that you cannot afford this liability on your company. Ask what they feel about this. Remember their feelings & your feelings are facts! Especially gut feelings, walk away. :-]] Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. __________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Hilton Dier Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 6:20 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? I’ll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. The “can you cob this back together for $200?” job is a non starter. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Feb 25 13:33:17 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:33:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And did you ever walk away from from a longstanding PITA? I call it "firing" a customer. You took them on years ago 'cause maybe you needed the work, or just felt sorry for them. But have been nothing but a pain for all the reasons you mentioned. And they get upset when you finally tell them, nicely or not, to find someone else. I've done firings no less than 5 times in the last several years. At this late date in my career, who needs it. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 2/24/2021 8:28:47 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: I’ll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. The “can you cob this back together for $200?” job is a non starter. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Feb 25 13:54:55 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:54:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy: Sometimes consumers ask for shoddy installations because they are cheap or think they know more than they do. Other times consumers are victims of unscrupulous installers and would just as soon pay a fair price for quality work. We have taken some pretty poor installations and turned them around. I tell rework customers that the repair will be more expensive than the original install because there is time expended to undo the harm before the good work can start. If we sense the customer is not willing to trust us, we make a hasty retreat. A diplomatic exit is sometimes the best course. We have said things like, “Our skill set is not a good match with your needs,” or “We are all booked up for the foreseeable future.” We have made a lot of money and derived a lot of satisfaction doing rework-- under the right conditions. I suggest you have an open mind but follow your gut feelings. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon *Sent:* Wednesday, February 24, 2021 10:14 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? Hi all, I’m sure we’re not alone in this so I thought I’d find out what you all do in these situations: We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair their system. I ask the standard questions you’d expect and also for pictures of their system. Here’s the pic (below). My question is what would you say to this person? Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 Vice President MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 96218 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 25 15:35:38 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 12:35:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?What_would_you_do/say=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely have done some customer firing. My off time is extremely valuable to me at this stage of life. If they can't follow the instructions, it is in the contract and we part ways. The same with manufacturers, If they can't get me product that lasts and has built-in quality I do not want their gear. Recently read about an Inverter that has problems starting 3/4 HP motors and pumps. Half of my clients have 3/4 HP 120vac fire pumps up here in the Sierra. Absolutely can't lose power in an emergency. The picture of the system in the start of this thread was not the worst I have seen, by a long shot! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:33:17 -0500, "Kirk Herander, VSE" wrote: And did you ever walk away from from a longstanding PITA? I call it "firing" a customer. You took them on years ago 'cause maybe you needed the work, or just felt sorry for them. But have been nothing but a pain for all the reasons you mentioned. And they get upset when you finally tell them, nicely or not, to find someone else. I've done firings no less than 5 times in the last several years. At this late date in my career, who needs it. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2021!!_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [3] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 2/24/2021 8:28:47 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: I'll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. The "can you cob this back together for $200?" job is a non starter. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Feb 25 15:48:47 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:48:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is why I have folks send me pics first, before I roll the truck.  I want to know what I'm getting myself into, and they need to know that its not going to be an easy fix. He's got some good equipment (Radians, HUP batteries) but not a fuse in sight.  What could go wrong? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/25/21 3:35 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Definitely have done some customer firing. My off time is extremely > valuable to me at this stage of life. If they can't follow the > instructions, it is in the contract and we part ways. > > The same with manufacturers, If they can't get me product that lasts > and has built-in quality I do not want their gear. Recently read about > an Inverter that has problems starting 3/4 HP motors and pumps. Half > of my clients have 3/4 HP 120vac fire pumps up here in the Sierra. > Absolutely can't lose power in an emergency. > > The picture of the system in the start of this thread was not the > worst I have seen, by a long shot! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:33:17 -0500, "Kirk Herander, VSE" > wrote: > >> And did you ever walk away from from a longstanding PITA? I call it >> "firing" a customer. You took them on years ago 'cause maybe you >> needed the work, or just felt sorry for them. But have been nothing >> but a pain for all the reasons you mentioned. And they get upset when >> you finally tell them, nicely or not, to find someone else. I've done >> firings no less than 5 times in the last several years. At this late >> date in my career, who needs it. >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> */Celebrating our 30^th  Anniversary 1991-2021!!/* >> >> *www.vermont.solar* >> ** >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> >> On 2/24/2021 8:28:47 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: >> >> I'll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you >> turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, >> paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow >> paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the >> warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. >> >> The "can you cob this back together for $200?" job is a non starter. >> >> Hilton Dier III >> Renewable Energy Design >> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ceiodkinocmdghnp.png Type: image/png Size: 815956 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 25 18:57:49 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:57:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?What_would_you_do/say=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Uggg and no load center or power distribution. I just did one for an inspection and the AHJ required a listed load center from the Inverter maker. The wife lost her husband to C19 and she is selling the place as it is over her head. Too many sad stories. Oh look it is almost 5 o'clock. Might have to start early.... Thanks for the pix. I will dig up some with all of the battery tops blown off and still being charged. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:48:47 -0500, Ray wrote: This is why I have folks send me pics first, before I roll the truck. I want to know what I'm getting myself into, and they need to know that its not going to be an easy fix. Definitely have done some customer firing. My off time is extremely valuable to me at this stage of life. If they can't follow the instructions, it is in the contract and we part ways. The same with manufacturers, If they can't get me product that lasts and has built-in quality I do not want their gear. Recently read about an Inverter that has problems starting 3/4 HP motors and pumps. Half of my clients have 3/4 HP 120vac fire pumps up here in the Sierra. Absolutely can't lose power in an emergency. The picture of the system in the start of this thread was not the worst I have seen, by a long shot! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:33:17 -0500, "Kirk Herander, VSE" [5] wrote: And did you ever walk away from from a longstanding PITA? I call it "firing" a customer. You took them on years ago 'cause maybe you needed the work, or just felt sorry for them. But have been nothing but a pain for all the reasons you mentioned. And they get upset when you finally tell them, nicely or not, to find someone else. I've done firings no less than 5 times in the last several years. At this late date in my career, who needs it. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2021!!_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [6] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 2/24/2021 8:28:47 PM, Hilton Dier [7] wrote: I'll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. The "can you cob this back together for $200?" job is a non starter. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar [6] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 [7] mailto:hiltondier at gmail.com [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ceiodkinocmdghnp.png Type: image/png Size: 815956 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Feb 25 19:01:03 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:01:03 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?What_would_you_do/say=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39ddee9af57f0fdf7d69bfc7c949aacf@127.0.0.1> Hmm, I thought I deleted the large pix file. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:48:47 -0500, Ray wrote: This is why I have folks send me pics first, before I roll the truck. I want to know what I'm getting myself into, and they need to know that its not going to be an easy fix. Definitely have done some customer firing. My off time is extremely valuable to me at this stage of life. If they can't follow the instructions, it is in the contract and we part ways. The same with manufacturers, If they can't get me product that lasts and has built-in quality I do not want their gear. Recently read about an Inverter that has problems starting 3/4 HP motors and pumps. Half of my clients have 3/4 HP 120vac fire pumps up here in the Sierra. Absolutely can't lose power in an emergency. The picture of the system in the start of this thread was not the worst I have seen, by a long shot! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 13:33:17 -0500, "Kirk Herander, VSE" [5] wrote: And did you ever walk away from from a longstanding PITA? I call it "firing" a customer. You took them on years ago 'cause maybe you needed the work, or just felt sorry for them. But have been nothing but a pain for all the reasons you mentioned. And they get upset when you finally tell them, nicely or not, to find someone else. I've done firings no less than 5 times in the last several years. At this late date in my career, who needs it. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2021!!_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [6] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 2/24/2021 8:28:47 PM, Hilton Dier [7] wrote: I'll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. The "can you cob this back together for $200?" job is a non starter. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar [6] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 [7] mailto:hiltondier at gmail.com [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Fri Feb 26 00:38:05 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:38:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: <00bb01d70b88$802846e0$8078d4a0$@solarwork.com> References: <00bb01d70b88$802846e0$8078d4a0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <766B2607-FED3-42F4-ADCD-7F3B16569A5E@me.com> Yes, an interesting thread. Glad to hear I’m not the only one seeing this more and more these days. Internet lowballers and Youtube “pros” aren’t helping the situation either. There is always a bit of guilt not helping someone out especially after hearing that declining to help really often unfolds into more unfortunate turns for them. It’s always a balance of what's best for me and my time versus the best for the safety of our community. Just have to accept that I can’t save everyone and perhaps by not they’ll find someone else that needs the experience. As far as “firing" a customer yes that can feel really good. I did that a couple years ago with a client I had been helping for 16 years. It was the best $830 I’ve ever walked away from! Brings a smile to my face to this day! Just for fun, here’s a sweet system I declined to work on a few years back. He didn’t like the fact that I told him I was going to completely remove it before re-installing it and then charge him a $300 fee to clean all the carbon deposits off my tools and body each time I was there. Not shown 4’ away is 100 gallons of diesel fuel and the generator. Yet somehow he got this permitted by parking a tractor in front of the access door (so he claimed). Nick And did you ever walk away from from a longstanding PITA? I call it "firing" a customer. You took them on years ago 'cause maybe you needed the work, or just felt sorry for them. But have been nothing but a pain for all the reasons you mentioned. And they get upset when you finally tell them, nicely or not, to find someone else. I've done firings no less than 5 times in the last several years. At this late date in my career, who needs it. Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 > On 2/24/2021 8:28:47 PM, Hilton Dier wrote: > > I’ll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. > > The “can you cob this back together for $200?” job is a non starter. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > On Feb 25, 2021, at 7:11 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > Succinctly put & thank you! > > Add to that "I did it myself what do you think?" > Learning to walk away is probably one of the hardest lessons in the solar business I have had to learn (years ago). > > I just had a request to add batteries to a11 KW Solar Edge system that was according to the phone call that was sold to "to supposed to back up his house" without batteries??? > The first time the power went out he was upset?? > How do you buy a solar backup system & not know you needed batteries? > Red Flag #1 > > This site is 9 hours away from my shop & he bragged about asking the electrical inspector during the original installation to "find something" so that the original installer would have to do a 26 hour round trip to the site. > Red Flag #2 > > I laid out the inspection trip to do an analysis & layout of the conversion & the associated costs & have not heard back for 3 weeks. I was doing all I could to not be rude & realistically honest as to what it was going to take to pull all the SolarEdge equipment out (he wanted me to take it as trade-in towards the revamp on the system). > > Junk installs - > Being able to say that a system would not pass inspection & therefore probably will VOID their homeowners insurance in the event of a fire related or not to the solar installation is a safe, honest & effective start with a junk installation request. You FEEL that you cannot afford this liability on your company. Ask what they feel about this. > > Remember their feelings & your feelings are facts! Especially gut feelings, walk away. :-]] > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > __________________________________________ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Hilton Dier > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 6:20 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? > > I’ll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim experience. > > The “can you cob this back together for $200?” job is a non starter. > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: old fav2.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 352121 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: odl fav1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 370735 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Feb 26 11:00:40 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:00:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: <766B2607-FED3-42F4-ADCD-7F3B16569A5E@me.com> References: <00bb01d70b88$802846e0$8078d4a0$@solarwork.com> <766B2607-FED3-42F4-ADCD-7F3B16569A5E@me.com> Message-ID: Ok, Nick wins.  That's definitely the worst I've ever seen.  That took years of dedication to make that look that bad. The soot? just insuring you maintain your top spot for years to come.  This brings up another part of this: the customer has to be willing not only to allow you to completely rewire the system, they also have to be willing to possibly relocate equipment, like that generator.  I haven't had the soot, but I have had generators in the same room as the equipment, which caused batteries and electronics to over heat. I too used to think I had to solve every problem I came upon, but you're just going to wear yourself out.  Both for your profit margin but also your sanity, you've got to pick the jobs that are best for you. Back to the firing clients: some of these folks seem to think there is an entire phone book of off grid electricians they can call, if one doesn't work out.  However, savvy customers recognize how important we are to their life style, and so pay promptly and treat us with respect. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/26/21 12:38 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > Yes, an interesting thread. Glad to hear I’m not the only one seeing > this more and more these days. Internet lowballers and Youtube “pros” > aren’t helping the situation either. There is always a bit of guilt > not helping someone out especially after hearing that declining to > help really often unfolds into more unfortunate turns for them. It’s > always a balance of what's best for me and my time versus the best for > the safety of our community. Just have to accept that I can’t save > everyone and perhaps by not they’ll find someone else that needs the > experience. > > As far as “firing" a customer yes that can feel really good. I did > that a couple years ago with a client I had been helping for 16 years. > It was the best $830 I’ve ever walked away from! Brings a smile to my > face to this day! > > Just for fun, here’s a sweet system I declined to work on a few years > back. He didn’t like the fact that I told him I was going to > completely remove it before re-installing it and then charge him a > $300 fee to clean all the carbon deposits off my tools and body each > time I was there. Not shown 4’ away is 100 gallons of diesel fuel and > the generator. Yet somehow he got this permitted by parking a tractor > in front of the access door (so he claimed). > > Nick > > > > From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Feb 26 15:12:17 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 15:12:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: <00bb01d70b88$802846e0$8078d4a0$@solarwork.com> <766B2607-FED3-42F4-ADCD-7F3B16569A5E@me.com> Message-ID: Man, I agree. The soot factor wins the prize. What did the inverters look like inside? I'm surprised they still worked, or did they? Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 2/26/2021 11:57:47 AM, Ray wrote: Ok, Nick wins.  That's definitely the worst I've ever seen.  That took years of dedication to make that look that bad. The soot? just insuring you maintain your top spot for years to come.  This brings up another part of this: the customer has to be willing not only to allow you to completely rewire the system, they also have to be willing to possibly relocate equipment, like that generator.  I haven't had the soot, but I have had generators in the same room as the equipment, which caused batteries and electronics to over heat. I too used to think I had to solve every problem I came upon, but you're just going to wear yourself out.  Both for your profit margin but also your sanity, you've got to pick the jobs that are best for you. Back to the firing clients: some of these folks seem to think there is an entire phone book of off grid electricians they can call, if one doesn't work out.  However, savvy customers recognize how important we are to their life style, and so pay promptly and treat us with respect. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/26/21 12:38 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > Yes, an interesting thread. Glad to hear I’m not the only one seeing > this more and more these days. Internet lowballers and Youtube “pros” > aren’t helping the situation either. There is always a bit of guilt > not helping someone out especially after hearing that declining to > help really often unfolds into more unfortunate turns for them. It’s > always a balance of what's best for me and my time versus the best for > the safety of our community. Just have to accept that I can’t save > everyone and perhaps by not they’ll find someone else that needs the > experience. > > As far as “firing" a customer yes that can feel really good. I did > that a couple years ago with a client I had been helping for 16 years. > It was the best $830 I’ve ever walked away from! Brings a smile to my > face to this day! > > Just for fun, here’s a sweet system I declined to work on a few years > back. He didn’t like the fact that I told him I was going to > completely remove it before re-installing it and then charge him a > $300 fee to clean all the carbon deposits off my tools and body each > time I was there. Not shown 4’ away is 100 gallons of diesel fuel and > the generator. Yet somehow he got this permitted by parking a tractor > in front of the access door (so he claimed). > > Nick > > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Fri Feb 26 18:18:25 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 18:18:25 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? Message-ID: <339D8FB6-1DA9-453F-8818-5C2360B71161@sunwindpowerinc.com> Oops forgot subject on first try. Wow! Ray I think you definitely get the gold star for that one. Great answers everyone, thanks again for confirming my stance. Most of us didn’t get into this industry to become rich, I know I didn’t. There’s always that side of me that wants to help, but then there’s the wealth of knowledge from the school of hard knocks that anyone who’s been in this business long enough knows to really pay attention to or risk losing it all. It’s nice to know that others “fire” their customers too:) - definitely done my share of that. Thanks for the affirmations everyone. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 15:51:08 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 16:51:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? In-Reply-To: References: <00bb01d70b88$802846e0$8078d4a0$@solarwork.com> <766B2607-FED3-42F4-ADCD-7F3B16569A5E@me.com> Message-ID: The most important thing with these types of jobs and customers is to clarify the terms of engagement. If you want to take on the job, make it very clear that you charge by the hour and guarantee no results. Bill frequently and get paid before you move on. Get a substantial deposit, it will probably be the only money you get. Write a contract. I had a customer ask me to install a battery based solar system they bought from China. I agreed as they were previously customers and we needed some work. The system did not work properly, the specs were all wrong for their needs. They argued over everything and would not listen to any reason. I got paid because I had a contract and it was very clear we were only responsible for wiring it up. I had them purchase a disconnect for the grid feed to the inverter and they argued for days that they didn't need it, and that the disconnect was stealing electricity from the grid. You can't win on these jobs, unless you make a load of money. On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 12:36 PM Ray wrote: > Ok, Nick wins. That's definitely the worst I've ever seen. That took > years of dedication to make that look that bad. The soot? just insuring > you maintain your top spot for years to come. This brings up another > part of this: the customer has to be willing not only to allow you to > completely rewire the system, they also have to be willing to possibly > relocate equipment, like that generator. I haven't had the soot, but I > have had generators in the same room as the equipment, which caused > batteries and electronics to over heat. > > I too used to think I had to solve every problem I came upon, but you're > just going to wear yourself out. Both for your profit margin but also > your sanity, you've got to pick the jobs that are best for you. > > Back to the firing clients: some of these folks seem to think there is > an entire phone book of off grid electricians they can call, if one > doesn't work out. However, savvy customers recognize how important we > are to their life style, and so pay promptly and treat us with respect. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 2/26/21 12:38 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > > Yes, an interesting thread. Glad to hear I’m not the only one seeing > > this more and more these days. Internet lowballers and Youtube “pros” > > aren’t helping the situation either. There is always a bit of guilt > > not helping someone out especially after hearing that declining to > > help really often unfolds into more unfortunate turns for them. It’s > > always a balance of what's best for me and my time versus the best for > > the safety of our community. Just have to accept that I can’t save > > everyone and perhaps by not they’ll find someone else that needs the > > experience. > > > > As far as “firing" a customer yes that can feel really good. I did > > that a couple years ago with a client I had been helping for 16 years. > > It was the best $830 I’ve ever walked away from! Brings a smile to my > > face to this day! > > > > Just for fun, here’s a sweet system I declined to work on a few years > > back. He didn’t like the fact that I told him I was going to > > completely remove it before re-installing it and then charge him a > > $300 fee to clean all the carbon deposits off my tools and body each > > time I was there. Not shown 4’ away is 100 gallons of diesel fuel and > > the generator. Yet somehow he got this permitted by parking a tractor > > in front of the access door (so he claimed). > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Sat Feb 27 11:23:51 2021 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 16:23:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Chad, How does that DeWalt large wire stripper work for ultra fine stranded cable, such as our typical 4/0 battery cable? Thanks, Kienan ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Chad Waits Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 2:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Crimper Recommendations I think it was about $3K with dies but we also go a free DeWalt large wire stripper with it as well. And yes, it does 4/0 battery lugs like a champ. Chad Waits President-Net Zero Solar Cell: (520) 270-4873 [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1SGeirEGrzgrqauw5X7tNc-M7cqMa-_dL&revid=0B0cUZ0al4NwMbUFHZXJ2VnZSc1ZtMTI2UUhibWdxK1hNSDMwPQ] On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:03 PM John Blittersdorf > wrote: Chad, what ballpark price for the Dewalt crimped. Does it handle 4/0 heavy duty lugs. I’m getting too old for my hand crumper. John Blittersdorf On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 7:05 PM Chad Waits > wrote: We bought the DeWalt version not too long ago. Makes great crimps and much easier to work with in tight spaces if you have too. Well worth the money... Chad Waits President-Net Zero Solar Cell: (520) 270-4873 [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1SGeirEGrzgrqauw5X7tNc-M7cqMa-_dL&revid=0B0cUZ0al4NwMbUFHZXJ2VnZSc1ZtMTI2UUhibWdxK1hNSDMwPQ] On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:40 PM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: Hi all, I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an electric crimper tool for battery lugs? I see that they can get expensive quickly, but a tool that cuts down on the struggle is a tool worth considering. Thanks in advance! -Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 27 12:54:47 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 10:54:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fronius country set up Message-ID: HI all, I”m setting up a fronius 10kw, here in the usa. It appears that the options are hawaii and California rule 21 for USA. are those the only options? I’m not in California, I don’t need to do VARs or anything like that. And if those are the only options is there a option that gives a wider operating window of both volts and hz? thanks jay peltz power From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Feb 27 13:47:44 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 11:47:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fronius country set up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9EEE1A92-C67B-4F2D-A109-2125BA6C60FD@gmail.com> Further information is that the inverter is attempting to push VAR’s. Its currently set to CA Rule 21. And the frequency here is just slightly 60.01 or 60.02. But I don’t want it to do that. Im guessing there is another 120/240v set up in the set up code. thanks jay > On Feb 27, 2021, at 10:54 AM, jay wrote: > > HI all, > > I”m setting up a fronius 10kw, here in the usa. > > It appears that the options are hawaii and California rule 21 for USA. > > are those the only options? > > I’m not in California, I don’t need to do VARs or anything like that. > > And if those are the only options is there a option that gives a wider operating window of both volts and hz? > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sun Feb 28 13:04:20 2021 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:04:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie solar behind a generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1688A2BF-5BE5-4F59-AED1-BCCA48FB1D34@skyfireenergy.com> I had a similar scenario a few years ago and looked at the Generac SSM, but for some reason(s) I cannot recall, could not go this route. The system was on a house and the auto transfer switch and generator were in a shack that was unreasonable to trench too, and we did not want to rely on a wireless option. The solution we came up with was a contact that would disconnect the inverters from the house panelboard upon a loss of voltage (grid). Unfortunately we did not come up with a solution that would automatically reconnect the inverters once the grid was restored... because we couldn’t reliably distinguish between the generator and the grid, so it required a manual reset once the customer could confirm they had grid power and not running off the generator. The client said they often did not know that there was a power outage so there could be times they would not even know the inverters had shut off... so I ran a low voltage line to a LED light in their kitchen area that would come on upon loss of grid and would go out when the inverters were manually reset. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Feb 25, 2021, at 6:40 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote: > > We are installing 25kW of PV on a service with an existing backup generator (Eaton 30KW) and auto transfer switch. Because of the remote location of the generator and transfer switch, we can not easily connect on the grid-side of the transfer switch as we usually do (without cutting a very long trench.) So we're looking for a way to lock out the solar during generator use. And then, ideally, reconnect the solar automatically when the grid is restored. > > Is there an off-the-shelf product available at this point to accomplish this? > > I see a thread on here from a couple years ago that recommended the Generac SMM for this type of scenario. Any current thoughts on this approach? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > direct: 802-318-7003 > nponzio at buildingenergyus.com > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 14:14:05 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 11:14:05 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie solar behind a generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The inverters have a pretty tight frequency range, I have adjusted gennys to run out of that tight range, they just keep waiting for the frequency to come back. I can take a little tinkering on some models but even 57 hz is enough if your Hawaii with the HECo rule or California. You can go over too but if there is a lug it may still connect the inverter. Jerry On Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 5:40 AM Nik Ponzio, Building Energy < nponzio at buildingenergyus.com> wrote: > We are installing 25kW of PV on a service with an existing backup > generator (Eaton 30KW) and auto transfer switch. Because of the remote > location of the generator and transfer switch, we can not easily connect on > the grid-side of the transfer switch as we usually do (without cutting a > very long trench.) So we're looking for a way to lock out the solar during > generator use. And then, ideally, reconnect the solar automatically when > the grid is restored. > > Is there an off-the-shelf product available at this point to accomplish > this? > > I see a thread on here > > from a couple years ago that recommended the Generac SMM for this type of > scenario. Any current thoughts on this approach? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > direct: 802-318-7003 > nponzio at buildingenergyus.com > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > > > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brettbartmasser at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 15:40:09 2021 From: brettbartmasser at gmail.com (Brett Bartmasser) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2021 12:40:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grid-tie solar behind a generator In-Reply-To: <1688A2BF-5BE5-4F59-AED1-BCCA48FB1D34@skyfireenergy.com> References: <1688A2BF-5BE5-4F59-AED1-BCCA48FB1D34@skyfireenergy.com> Message-ID: We have installed relays that distinguish between generator and grid power. They simply go in-between the solar and the service. They disconnect when the gen runs and reconnect when the grid comes back. They have worked so far as I know. On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 12:32 PM Benn Kilburn wrote: > I had a similar scenario a few years ago and looked at the Generac SSM, > but for some reason(s) I cannot recall, could not go this route. > The system was on a house and the auto transfer switch and generator were > in a shack that was unreasonable to trench too, and we did not want to rely > on a wireless option. > > The solution we came up with was a contact that would disconnect the > inverters from the house panelboard upon a loss of voltage (grid). > Unfortunately we did not come up with a solution that would automatically > reconnect the inverters once the grid was restored... because we couldn’t > reliably distinguish between the generator and the grid, so it required a > manual reset once the customer could confirm they had grid power and not > running off the generator. > The client said they often did not know that there was a power outage so > there could be times they would not even know the inverters had shut off... > so I ran a low voltage line to a LED light in their kitchen area that > would come on upon loss of grid and would go out when the inverters were > manually reset. > > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > > On Feb 25, 2021, at 6:40 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy < > nponzio at buildingenergyus.com> wrote: > > We are installing 25kW of PV on a service with an existing backup > generator (Eaton 30KW) and auto transfer switch. Because of the remote > location of the generator and transfer switch, we can not easily connect on > the grid-side of the transfer switch as we usually do (without cutting a > very long trench.) So we're looking for a way to lock out the solar during > generator use. And then, ideally, reconnect the solar automatically when > the grid is restored. > > Is there an off-the-shelf product available at this point to accomplish > this? > > I see a thread on here > > from a couple years ago that recommended the Generac SMM for this type of > scenario. Any current thoughts on this approach? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > 1570 South Brownell Road > Williston, VT 05495 > direct: 802-318-7003 > nponzio at buildingenergyus.com > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > > > "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 1 08:47:55 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 08:47:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring Message-ID: How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully monitored it? I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the microinverters 300 feet away. I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Mon Mar 1 11:09:52 2021 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 09:09:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fronius country set up In-Reply-To: <9EEE1A92-C67B-4F2D-A109-2125BA6C60FD@gmail.com> References: <9EEE1A92-C67B-4F2D-A109-2125BA6C60FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, Not sure if this will help but you can see all the available country codes and change them using the following method: Access the codes menu by first having the inverter screen on the "home" icon. 1. Press the 3rd button 5 times in a row 3. Enter code 73887. 4. press + or – to change grid voltage settings 5. Press enter to confirm Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Mar 1 11:10:15 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 11:10:15 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, We recently completed a ground-mount array ~350’ from the Envoy and all micros are able to report. > On Mar 1, 2021, at 8:47 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully monitored it? > > I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the microinverters 300 feet away. > > I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Mar 1 11:25:53 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 08:25:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason - I don't have the answer to your question because we've mounted the monitoring box out by the array for similar applications to what you described. I would suggest that if you mount your envoy far from the array, that at least you run a spare 1" PVC with some pull points out to the array in case you need to move the Envoy and feed an internet cable in the future. PVC is cheap to drop in a trench when you're already trenching. Best, August On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 7:35 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully > monitored it? > > I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V > service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at > the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the > interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to > put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an > adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the > microinverters 300 feet away. > > I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry > about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate > the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon Mar 1 12:20:07 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 12:20:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring Message-ID: I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge internet to a remotely located array.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jason SzumlanskiDate: Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for MonitoringHow far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully monitored it?I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the microinverters 300 feet away. I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate the 6-hour delay in data acquisition.Thanks,Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Mar 1 13:02:00 2021 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:02:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] fronius country set up In-Reply-To: References: <9EEE1A92-C67B-4F2D-A109-2125BA6C60FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is also a menu (I don't have the code handy now, but Fronius tech support should be able to tell you) where you can specifically adjust the individual operating windows - voltage and frequency trips and trip times. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 11:10 AM Sam Haraldson wrote: > Jay, > > Not sure if this will help but you can see all the available country codes > and change them using the following method: > > Access the codes menu by first having the inverter screen on the "home" > icon. > 1. Press the 3rd button 5 times in a row > 3. Enter code 73887. > 4. press + or – to change grid voltage settings > 5. Press enter to confirm > > Sam Haraldson > Installation & Service Manager > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Mon Mar 1 13:07:35 2021 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:07:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Along what Glenn is saying - I have often used wireless radios to get wifi to the array. I used to use the Engenius ENH202 all the time and they were great, but last I checked the prices went up. I have recently gotten the TP Link CPE210. They are cheap, but not nearly as powerful. I was able to put the ENH202 in the middle of someone's house and generally aim it in the right direction and there would be great signal 500' away even through some trees. The TP link one needs a much better line of sight. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 12:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge > internet to a remotely located array. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Jason Szumlanski > *Date: *Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring > > How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully > monitored it? > > I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V > service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at > the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the > interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to > put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an > adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the > microinverters 300 feet away. > > I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry > about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate > the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 1 13:15:17 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 10:15:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: We are impressed with the Ubiquiti line of equipment for access points, stations, wifi extenders, and remotely manageable switches. The Unifi system logs up and down time and will notify if there is a failure. We have one RF link that is 5 miles long (it’s not a power system it’s for a community radio station, a volunteer hobby project). Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan *Sent:* Monday, March 1, 2021 10:08 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring Along what Glenn is saying - I have often used wireless radios to get wifi to the array. I used to use the Engenius ENH202 all the time and they were great, but last I checked the prices went up. I have recently gotten the TP Link CPE210. They are cheap, but not nearly as powerful. I was able to put the ENH202 in the middle of someone's house and generally aim it in the right direction and there would be great signal 500' away even through some trees. The TP link one needs a much better line of sight. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 12:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge internet to a remotely located array. -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ *From: *Jason Szumlanski *Date: *Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AM *To: *RE-wrenches; *Cc: * *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully monitored it? I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the microinverters 300 feet away. I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 1 13:23:01 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:23:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't intend to run a grounded conductor (neutral) to the array location. I should have been clearer about that. There will be no way to connect the Envoy out there. That's mainly why I was looking for confirmation that it will pick up microinverters over long wire distances. This saves me 600 feet of 1/0 wire. Jason On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 1:07 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Along what Glenn is saying - I have often used wireless radios to get wifi > to the array. I used to use the Engenius ENH202 all the time and they were > great, but last I checked the prices went up. I have recently gotten the TP > Link CPE210. They are cheap, but not nearly as powerful. I was able to put > the ENH202 in the middle of someone's house and generally aim it in the > right direction and there would be great signal 500' away even through some > trees. The TP link one needs a much better line of sight. > Cheers, > Dave > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 12:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > >> I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge >> internet to a remotely located array. >> >> -Glenn >> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Jason Szumlanski >> *Date: *Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AM >> *To: *RE-wrenches; >> *Cc: * >> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring >> >> How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully >> monitored it? >> >> I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V >> service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at >> the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the >> interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to >> put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an >> adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the >> microinverters 300 feet away. >> >> I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry >> about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate >> the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 1 12:23:28 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 12:23:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I definitely considered this option. I would prefer to hardwire the envoy in this case back at the house. I was pleased to hear another wrench respond with a successful 350 ft distance. I will let you know how this goes. On Mon, Mar 1, 2021, 12:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge > internet to a remotely located array. > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Jason Szumlanski > *Date: *Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring > > How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully > monitored it? > > I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V > service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at > the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the > interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to > put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an > adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the > microinverters 300 feet away. > > I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry > about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate > the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. > > Thanks, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Mar 1 14:28:38 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:28:38 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In 2000 I set up a 5 mile wi-fi link to my off-grid home in the Caribbean with a product I think was called Smartbridges. I doubt they are around anymore. Regardless, I was absolutely floored when it worked. I might have cried. I was streaming a Sling TV device in the middle of nowhere on my first off-grid system! So it can definitely be done. The question is whether it is necessary to go through the effort. I favor keeping the Envoy back at the house, primarily to eliminate the neutral and also for the most reliable connectivity. I can have the low voltage guys install Ethernet for this new home build. Jason On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 1:36 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > We are impressed with the Ubiquiti line of equipment for access points, > stations, wifi extenders, and remotely manageable switches. The Unifi > system logs up and down time and will notify if there is a failure. We > have one RF link that is 5 miles long (it’s not a power system it’s for a > community radio station, a volunteer hobby project). > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan > *Sent:* Monday, March 1, 2021 10:08 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring > > > > Along what Glenn is saying - I have often used wireless radios to get wifi > to the array. I used to use the Engenius ENH202 all the time and they were > great, but last I checked the prices went up. I have recently gotten the TP > Link CPE210. They are cheap, but not nearly as powerful. I was able to put > the ENH202 in the middle of someone's house and generally aim it in the > right direction and there would be great signal 500' away even through some > trees. The TP link one needs a much better line of sight. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > > o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 > > www.taitem.com > > > > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 12:20 PM Glenn Burt wrote: > > I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge > internet to a remotely located array. > > > > -Glenn > > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *Jason Szumlanski > > *Date: *Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AM > > *To: *RE-wrenches; > > *Cc: * > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring > > > > How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully > monitored it? > > > > I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V > service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at > the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the > interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to > put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an > adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the > microinverters 300 feet away. > > > > I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry > about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate > the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 2 10:00:21 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:00:21 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations Message-ID: I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Mar 2 12:33:19 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 12:33:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've done the original Envoy at > 300 feet and was fine. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 3/1/2021 11:03:47 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully monitored it? I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the microinverters 300 feet away. I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate the 6-hour delay in data acquisition. Thanks, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Tue Mar 2 13:31:28 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:31:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, You’re thinking of the IQ7+. The IQ7A is rated for 349W. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 214825 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Mar 2, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? > > Jason > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From rick at solshineenergy.com Tue Mar 2 13:34:03 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:34:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CE0B58-1300-4257-BCF5-02E09195A95F@solshineenergy.com> Oops, that’s at 240V. My mistake. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Mar 2, 2021, at 1:31 PM, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: > > Jason, > > You’re thinking of the IQ7+. The IQ7A is rated for 349W. > > > > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > >> On Mar 2, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >>  >> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? >> >> Jason >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> From chris at solarwindworks.com Tue Mar 2 13:55:04 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:55:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b5f01d70f95$90367230$b0a35690$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Jason, I don’t know if the IQ8 is being produced yet, can’t find much info on it. It might be a contender for the 208 higher wattage club though if you can wait a bit…. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2021 7:00 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Mar 2 18:23:09 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 15:23:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Client Resources Message-ID: Friends: Over the years I have developed some custom resources I provide to my clients. These include abbreviated manuals, training aids, laminate-able instruction sheets (hopefully not lamentable). I have kept these in-house to keep a value-added advantage to my business. Now that I am approaching retirement I want to open these up to the industry in the off chance some one might find them useful. I won’t pretend there is some gold mine here, but maybe something that might be handy or spark your own idea. These can be found here: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/Customer_Resources/Client_Resources.html There is more material I am porting over all the time, so come back if you are curious. The site cautions to not use these if you are not one of our customers, but if you are a member of the re-wrenches forum you have my permission to review and use these documents at your discretion. It is always nice to get attribution, so if you can keep Miller Solar and my web site address on any document you might use or borrow from, that would be appreciated. I am not retiring any time soon, so I will keep asking the tricky questions here, and thanks for all the great advice so far. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 3 00:41:59 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 21:41:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small, non-Tesla GTBB system design Message-ID: Friends: I am getting asked more often to provide design for grid-tied battery backup systems. I generally try to talk clients out of battery backup because I have always felt that the grid is the greenest battery and that the grid reliability is better than one might remember. However, with climate change and media attention, the need and market pressure is becoming stronger. I am really interested in what others have created in the way of solutions to this question. I have thought about it a lot. If its ok, I’d like to free-associate about some of my concerns and conclusions then ask if any of you are willing to share your ideas on how best to fill this need. Here goes: I am a firm believer in segregate load delivery for these reasons: 1. To back up an entire grid service you have to, in good conscience, perform a thorough load study and provide enough through-transfer to provide for maximum load conditions during grid up-time. The backup system cannot be a supply bottle-neck. 2. I don’t accept manual load-shedding for one moment. What if the AC and the dryer are running when the grid goes out? The system crashes. 3. In a home with whole-house backup, it is difficult for the consumer to know there is an outage and to conserve. Cellphone notification features are now more common, but cell phone batteries die and phones get left in the other room with the ringer off, so it is possible for homeowners to leave consumptive loads on after the grid goes down. Conclusion: With segregated loads, the transfer, inverter and storage can be scaled down and the reliability increases. Less cost, better performance. So given that the system sizing will be modest, has anyone come up with a reasonable design using standard, grid-sell capable battery inverters? Here is how I am imagining such a system: I see a modest battery system with a 4 to 8 KW inverter, DC coupled PV and a matching no-maintenance battery system. It would have these components: Inverter: Must have a dedicated generator and grid input and good remote monitoring, robust web interface and email notification. Outback Radian. Batteries: Gel or lithium. I have a client that has been grid-floating a set of MK Powered gel batteries since 1999. Or a Blue Planet or Fortress cabineted system. Generator: Small pad-mount natural gas or propane fueled generator or a portable gas powered unit with stabilized gas. If the generator is portable, provide an AC flanged inlet and sturdy cord long enough so generator can be 10 feet from any opening in the home. Provide durable signage on the generator indicating CO safety practices. PV: DC coupled for simplicity. Sized based on annual energy needs, not on critical loads. Grid power is likely to go down in the stormy winter months or smoky fire season, so PV is not a reliable energy source during grid outages. AC Distribution: Segregated loads with at least one commonly used lighting circuit not on the critical loads panel so the homeowner soon realizes the power is out. Unless you are a Tesla dealer, I am sure many of you have gone through the same mental acrobatics trying to figure out the best solution to this design request. I am very interested in what the rest of you may have come up with. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 01:36:17 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 22:36:17 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small, non-Tesla GTBB system design In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches I am right there with you Outback Radians anywhere from two to four Blue planet Energy batteries no less than 16 kwh. Generally 16 kWh per 8 kW inverter. Always DC Coupled prefer an array with passive seasonal adjustability Back up with a gen and load dump and disconnect contractors. l try not to re-invent the wheel on every system, just the relay use and operation. KIS! Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Tue, Mar 2, 2021, 10:19 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am getting asked more often to provide design for grid-tied battery > backup systems. I generally try to talk clients out of battery backup > because I have always felt that the grid is the greenest battery and that > the grid reliability is better than one might remember. However, with > climate change and media attention, the need and market pressure is > becoming stronger. > > > > I am really interested in what others have created in the way of solutions > to this question. I have thought about it a lot. If its ok, I’d like to > free-associate about some of my concerns and conclusions then ask if any of > you are willing to share your ideas on how best to fill this need. Here > goes: > > > > I am a firm believer in segregate load delivery for these reasons: > > 1. To back up an entire grid service you have to, in good conscience, > perform a thorough load study and provide enough through-transfer to > provide for maximum load conditions during grid up-time. The backup system > cannot be a supply bottle-neck. > > 2. I don’t accept manual load-shedding for one moment. What if the AC > and the dryer are running when the grid goes out? The system crashes. > > 3. In a home with whole-house backup, it is difficult for the consumer > to know there is an outage and to conserve. Cellphone notification > features are now more common, but cell phone batteries die and phones get > left in the other room with the ringer off, so it is possible for > homeowners to leave consumptive loads on after the grid goes down. > > > > Conclusion: With segregated loads, the transfer, inverter and storage can > be scaled down and the reliability increases. Less cost, better > performance. > > > > So given that the system sizing will be modest, has anyone come up with a > reasonable design using standard, grid-sell capable battery inverters? > > > > Here is how I am imagining such a system: > > > > I see a modest battery system with a 4 to 8 KW inverter, DC coupled PV and > a matching no-maintenance battery system. It would have these components: > > > > Inverter: Must have a dedicated generator and grid input and good remote > monitoring, robust web interface and email notification. Outback Radian. > > > > Batteries: Gel or lithium. I have a client that has been grid-floating a > set of MK Powered gel batteries since 1999. Or a Blue Planet or Fortress > cabineted system. > > > > Generator: Small pad-mount natural gas or propane fueled generator or a > portable gas powered unit with stabilized gas. If the generator is > portable, provide an AC flanged inlet and sturdy cord long enough so > generator can be 10 feet from any opening in the home. Provide durable > signage on the generator indicating CO safety practices. > > > > PV: DC coupled for simplicity. Sized based on annual energy needs, not on > critical loads. Grid power is likely to go down in the stormy winter > months or smoky fire season, so PV is not a reliable energy source during > grid outages. > > > > AC Distribution: Segregated loads with at least one commonly used > lighting circuit not on the critical loads panel so the homeowner soon > realizes the power is out. > > > > Unless you are a Tesla dealer, I am sure many of you have gone through the > same mental acrobatics trying to figure out the best solution to this > design request. I am very interested in what the rest of you may have come > up with. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 07:10:36 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 07:10:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small, non-Tesla GTBB system design In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, I agree with you with Radian, Fortress and just add a subpanel identical to the main grid panel as close possible. Put all critical loads on sub and larger loads on grid panel. Being side by side, swapping circuits is easy. I also install an iota charger for generator redundancy. OpticRE works great for monitoring. John Blittersdorf On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:19 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I am getting asked more often to provide design for grid-tied battery > backup systems. I generally try to talk clients out of battery backup > because I have always felt that the grid is the greenest battery and that > the grid reliability is better than one might remember. However, with > climate change and media attention, the need and market pressure is > becoming stronger. > > > > I am really interested in what others have created in the way of solutions > to this question. I have thought about it a lot. If its ok, I’d like to > free-associate about some of my concerns and conclusions then ask if any of > you are willing to share your ideas on how best to fill this need. Here > goes: > > > > I am a firm believer in segregate load delivery for these reasons: > > 1. To back up an entire grid service you have to, in good conscience, > perform a thorough load study and provide enough through-transfer to > provide for maximum load conditions during grid up-time. The backup system > cannot be a supply bottle-neck. > > 2. I don’t accept manual load-shedding for one moment. What if the AC > and the dryer are running when the grid goes out? The system crashes. > > 3. In a home with whole-house backup, it is difficult for the consumer > to know there is an outage and to conserve. Cellphone notification > features are now more common, but cell phone batteries die and phones get > left in the other room with the ringer off, so it is possible for > homeowners to leave consumptive loads on after the grid goes down. > > > > Conclusion: With segregated loads, the transfer, inverter and storage can > be scaled down and the reliability increases. Less cost, better > performance. > > > > So given that the system sizing will be modest, has anyone come up with a > reasonable design using standard, grid-sell capable battery inverters? > > > > Here is how I am imagining such a system: > > > > I see a modest battery system with a 4 to 8 KW inverter, DC coupled PV and > a matching no-maintenance battery system. It would have these components: > > > > Inverter: Must have a dedicated generator and grid input and good remote > monitoring, robust web interface and email notification. Outback Radian. > > > > Batteries: Gel or lithium. I have a client that has been grid-floating a > set of MK Powered gel batteries since 1999. Or a Blue Planet or Fortress > cabineted system. > > > > Generator: Small pad-mount natural gas or propane fueled generator or a > portable gas powered unit with stabilized gas. If the generator is > portable, provide an AC flanged inlet and sturdy cord long enough so > generator can be 10 feet from any opening in the home. Provide durable > signage on the generator indicating CO safety practices. > > > > PV: DC coupled for simplicity. Sized based on annual energy needs, not on > critical loads. Grid power is likely to go down in the stormy winter > months or smoky fire season, so PV is not a reliable energy source during > grid outages. > > > > AC Distribution: Segregated loads with at least one commonly used > lighting circuit not on the critical loads panel so the homeowner soon > realizes the power is out. > > > > Unless you are a Tesla dealer, I am sure many of you have gone through the > same mental acrobatics trying to figure out the best solution to this > design request. I am very interested in what the rest of you may have come > up with. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Mar 3 08:29:49 2021 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:29:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small, non-Tesla GTBB system design In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Radian is also the system that I would typically use in this situation. Although I am interested what people think about using a Sol-Ark inverter here. I have not used one yet, but I am interested in the fact that everything is integrated into one box, the string voltages can be up to 500V, and also if there is a battery failure at some point they can still run as a grid tied system. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. *607.277.1118 x121* f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 7:10 AM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > William, > I agree with you with Radian, Fortress and just add a subpanel > identical to the main grid panel as close possible. Put all critical loads > on sub and larger loads on grid panel. Being side by side, swapping > circuits is easy. I also install an iota charger for generator redundancy. > OpticRE works great for monitoring. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:19 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I am getting asked more often to provide design for grid-tied battery >> backup systems. I generally try to talk clients out of battery backup >> because I have always felt that the grid is the greenest battery and that >> the grid reliability is better than one might remember. However, with >> climate change and media attention, the need and market pressure is >> becoming stronger. >> >> >> >> I am really interested in what others have created in the way of >> solutions to this question. I have thought about it a lot. If its ok, I’d >> like to free-associate about some of my concerns and conclusions then ask >> if any of you are willing to share your ideas on how best to fill this >> need. Here goes: >> >> >> >> I am a firm believer in segregate load delivery for these reasons: >> >> 1. To back up an entire grid service you have to, in good conscience, >> perform a thorough load study and provide enough through-transfer to >> provide for maximum load conditions during grid up-time. The backup system >> cannot be a supply bottle-neck. >> >> 2. I don’t accept manual load-shedding for one moment. What if the AC >> and the dryer are running when the grid goes out? The system crashes. >> >> 3. In a home with whole-house backup, it is difficult for the consumer >> to know there is an outage and to conserve. Cellphone notification >> features are now more common, but cell phone batteries die and phones get >> left in the other room with the ringer off, so it is possible for >> homeowners to leave consumptive loads on after the grid goes down. >> >> >> >> Conclusion: With segregated loads, the transfer, inverter and storage >> can be scaled down and the reliability increases. Less cost, better >> performance. >> >> >> >> So given that the system sizing will be modest, has anyone come up with a >> reasonable design using standard, grid-sell capable battery inverters? >> >> >> >> Here is how I am imagining such a system: >> >> >> >> I see a modest battery system with a 4 to 8 KW inverter, DC coupled PV >> and a matching no-maintenance battery system. It would have these >> components: >> >> >> >> Inverter: Must have a dedicated generator and grid input and good remote >> monitoring, robust web interface and email notification. Outback Radian. >> >> >> >> Batteries: Gel or lithium. I have a client that has been grid-floating >> a set of MK Powered gel batteries since 1999. Or a Blue Planet or Fortress >> cabineted system. >> >> >> >> Generator: Small pad-mount natural gas or propane fueled generator or a >> portable gas powered unit with stabilized gas. If the generator is >> portable, provide an AC flanged inlet and sturdy cord long enough so >> generator can be 10 feet from any opening in the home. Provide durable >> signage on the generator indicating CO safety practices. >> >> >> >> PV: DC coupled for simplicity. Sized based on annual energy needs, not >> on critical loads. Grid power is likely to go down in the stormy winter >> months or smoky fire season, so PV is not a reliable energy source during >> grid outages. >> >> >> >> AC Distribution: Segregated loads with at least one commonly used >> lighting circuit not on the critical loads panel so the homeowner soon >> realizes the power is out. >> >> >> >> Unless you are a Tesla dealer, I am sure many of you have gone through >> the same mental acrobatics trying to figure out the best solution to this >> design request. I am very interested in what the rest of you may have come >> up with. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgiroux at mindspring.com Wed Mar 3 09:44:51 2021 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 09:44:51 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small, non-Tesla GTBB system design In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000201d7103b$c529ba00$4f7d2e00$@mindspring.com> Good morning all. We have installed numerous Sol-Arks for this type of application over the last 2 years and they perform so very well. While they do a great job with FLA’s they really shine with LI’s or maybe it is my bias about only having to install 1 or 2 large batteries. Technology has blessed us with great changes in our industry and like some of you, I, at times, have been reluctant to change. Sol-Ark , while a truly terrific product, will be copied by competitors and upstarts, providing us with additional options in the future, good bad or indifferent. We and our customers will benefit, here’s to change. Peter Giroux American Solar Roswell Ga From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 8:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small, non-Tesla GTBB system design The Radian is also the system that I would typically use in this situation. Although I am interested what people think about using a Sol-Ark inverter here. I have not used one yet, but I am interested in the fact that everything is integrated into one box, the string voltages can be up to 500V, and also if there is a battery failure at some point they can still run as a grid tied system. Cheers, Dave Dave Tedeyan, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 www.taitem.com Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design Certified B-Corporation since 2013 On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 7:10 AM John Blittersdorf > wrote: William, I agree with you with Radian, Fortress and just add a subpanel identical to the main grid panel as close possible. Put all critical loads on sub and larger loads on grid panel. Being side by side, swapping circuits is easy. I also install an iota charger for generator redundancy. OpticRE works great for monitoring. John Blittersdorf On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:19 AM William Miller > wrote: Friends: I am getting asked more often to provide design for grid-tied battery backup systems. I generally try to talk clients out of battery backup because I have always felt that the grid is the greenest battery and that the grid reliability is better than one might remember. However, with climate change and media attention, the need and market pressure is becoming stronger. I am really interested in what others have created in the way of solutions to this question. I have thought about it a lot. If its ok, I’d like to free-associate about some of my concerns and conclusions then ask if any of you are willing to share your ideas on how best to fill this need. Here goes: I am a firm believer in segregate load delivery for these reasons: 1. To back up an entire grid service you have to, in good conscience, perform a thorough load study and provide enough through-transfer to provide for maximum load conditions during grid up-time. The backup system cannot be a supply bottle-neck. 2. I don’t accept manual load-shedding for one moment. What if the AC and the dryer are running when the grid goes out? The system crashes. 3. In a home with whole-house backup, it is difficult for the consumer to know there is an outage and to conserve. Cellphone notification features are now more common, but cell phone batteries die and phones get left in the other room with the ringer off, so it is possible for homeowners to leave consumptive loads on after the grid goes down. Conclusion: With segregated loads, the transfer, inverter and storage can be scaled down and the reliability increases. Less cost, better performance. So given that the system sizing will be modest, has anyone come up with a reasonable design using standard, grid-sell capable battery inverters? Here is how I am imagining such a system: I see a modest battery system with a 4 to 8 KW inverter, DC coupled PV and a matching no-maintenance battery system. It would have these components: Inverter: Must have a dedicated generator and grid input and good remote monitoring, robust web interface and email notification. Outback Radian. Batteries: Gel or lithium. I have a client that has been grid-floating a set of MK Powered gel batteries since 1999. Or a Blue Planet or Fortress cabineted system. Generator: Small pad-mount natural gas or propane fueled generator or a portable gas powered unit with stabilized gas. If the generator is portable, provide an AC flanged inlet and sturdy cord long enough so generator can be 10 feet from any opening in the home. Provide durable signage on the generator indicating CO safety practices. PV: DC coupled for simplicity. Sized based on annual energy needs, not on critical loads. Grid power is likely to go down in the stormy winter months or smoky fire season, so PV is not a reliable energy source during grid outages. AC Distribution: Segregated loads with at least one commonly used lighting circuit not on the critical loads panel so the homeowner soon realizes the power is out. Unless you are a Tesla dealer, I am sure many of you have gone through the same mental acrobatics trying to figure out the best solution to this design request. I am very interested in what the rest of you may have come up with. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ~WRD0000.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 09:19:48 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 07:19:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small, non-Tesla GTBB system design In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7969E991-7A47-4DD4-B6D6-D5AE83C5C8A1@gmail.com> I think whichever system ( Schneider, OB, sol-ark) it has to include closed loop battery communication. I really want to try the sol-ark but I won’t until they completely fix their small 120v load issue. Jay Peltz Power. > On Mar 3, 2021, at 6:30 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >  > The Radian is also the system that I would typically use in this situation. Although I am interested what people think about using a Sol-Ark inverter here. I have not used one yet, but I am interested in the fact that everything is integrated into one box, the string voltages can be up to 500V, and also if there is a battery failure at some point they can still run as a grid tied system. > Cheers, > Dave > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC > > 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 > o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119 > www.taitem.com > > Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design > Certified B-Corporation since 2013 > > >> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 7:10 AM John Blittersdorf wrote: >> William, >> I agree with you with Radian, Fortress and just add a subpanel identical to the main grid panel as close possible. Put all critical loads on sub and larger loads on grid panel. Being side by side, swapping circuits is easy. I also install an iota charger for generator redundancy. OpticRE works great for monitoring. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> >>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:19 AM William Miller wrote: >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I am getting asked more often to provide design for grid-tied battery backup systems. I generally try to talk clients out of battery backup because I have always felt that the grid is the greenest battery and that the grid reliability is better than one might remember. However, with climate change and media attention, the need and market pressure is becoming stronger. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am really interested in what others have created in the way of solutions to this question. I have thought about it a lot. If its ok, I’d like to free-associate about some of my concerns and conclusions then ask if any of you are willing to share your ideas on how best to fill this need. Here goes: >>> >>> >>> >>> I am a firm believer in segregate load delivery for these reasons: >>> >>> 1. To back up an entire grid service you have to, in good conscience, perform a thorough load study and provide enough through-transfer to provide for maximum load conditions during grid up-time. The backup system cannot be a supply bottle-neck. >>> >>> 2. I don’t accept manual load-shedding for one moment. What if the AC and the dryer are running when the grid goes out? The system crashes. >>> >>> 3. In a home with whole-house backup, it is difficult for the consumer to know there is an outage and to conserve. Cellphone notification features are now more common, but cell phone batteries die and phones get left in the other room with the ringer off, so it is possible for homeowners to leave consumptive loads on after the grid goes down. >>> >>> >>> >>> Conclusion: With segregated loads, the transfer, inverter and storage can be scaled down and the reliability increases. Less cost, better performance. >>> >>> >>> >>> So given that the system sizing will be modest, has anyone come up with a reasonable design using standard, grid-sell capable battery inverters? >>> >>> >>> >>> Here is how I am imagining such a system: >>> >>> >>> >>> I see a modest battery system with a 4 to 8 KW inverter, DC coupled PV and a matching no-maintenance battery system. It would have these components: >>> >>> >>> >>> Inverter: Must have a dedicated generator and grid input and good remote monitoring, robust web interface and email notification. Outback Radian. >>> >>> >>> >>> Batteries: Gel or lithium. I have a client that has been grid-floating a set of MK Powered gel batteries since 1999. Or a Blue Planet or Fortress cabineted system. >>> >>> >>> >>> Generator: Small pad-mount natural gas or propane fueled generator or a portable gas powered unit with stabilized gas. If the generator is portable, provide an AC flanged inlet and sturdy cord long enough so generator can be 10 feet from any opening in the home. Provide durable signage on the generator indicating CO safety practices. >>> >>> >>> >>> PV: DC coupled for simplicity. Sized based on annual energy needs, not on critical loads. Grid power is likely to go down in the stormy winter months or smoky fire season, so PV is not a reliable energy source during grid outages. >>> >>> >>> >>> AC Distribution: Segregated loads with at least one commonly used lighting circuit not on the critical loads panel so the homeowner soon realizes the power is out. >>> >>> >>> >>> Unless you are a Tesla dealer, I am sure many of you have gone through the same mental acrobatics trying to figure out the best solution to this design request. I am very interested in what the rest of you may have come up with. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 3 13:47:11 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:47:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with the 385W module. Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+ on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is identical for both inverters? If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping increase. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at > 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light > commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? > > Jason > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 15:46:26 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:46:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and locations around the country. I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it out. Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with the 385W module. > > Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+ on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is identical for both inverters? > > If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping increase. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? >> >> Jason > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Mar 3 16:15:24 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:15:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> References: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d1601d71072$547a5b20$fd6f1160$@solarwindworks.com> There’s the inverter max output amps, that’s it. 290 watts for either the 7 a or 7+ on the 208 VAC, they’re equal for sure. So put on a 420 watt panel but don’t expect to make a bit more production midday, all you get is a bit quicker ramp up in the AM and a bit longer 290w output in the evening. I’d put something in the 320 to 350 w range on these micros, max. We are in a cooler climate too maybe than most, around the Reno Tahoe area. I have LG 310’s on S280’s that are seeing flattening on the Enlighten output graphs midday now in the spring. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 12:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and locations around the country. I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it out. Jay Peltz power. On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote:  I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with the 385W module. Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+ on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is identical for both inverters? If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping increase. Jason Szumlanski On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? Jason _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 3 16:18:35 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:18:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> References: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've used that document many times when clients question the ratio. I wish I knew exactly how the PVWATTS ratio calculation worked. I know there's information on how this is all done, but I don't really have the time or inclination to study it. I'm wondering if someone knows how accurate It is. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 4:04 PM Jay wrote: > Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and locations > around the country. > > I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it > out. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I did > a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial roof > tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W module on > an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% less > annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with the > 385W module. > > Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+ > on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is > identical for both inverters? > > If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it may > vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here > results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the > morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping > increase. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at >> 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light >> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? >> >> Jason >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 3 18:31:00 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:31:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: <0d1601d71072$547a5b20$fd6f1160$@solarwindworks.com> References: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> <0d1601d71072$547a5b20$fd6f1160$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Around here a 385W module on an IQ7+ rarely flatlines, even at optimal orientation. I was concerned that a 420W module at 208V/290W max on an IQ7A would start to be problematic, but PVWATTS disagrees. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 6:14 PM Chris Worcester wrote: > There’s the inverter max output amps, that’s it. 290 watts for either the > 7 a or 7+ on the 208 VAC, they’re equal for sure. So put on a 420 watt > panel but don’t expect to make a bit more production midday, all you get is > a bit quicker ramp up in the AM and a bit longer 290w output in the > evening. I’d put something in the 320 to 350 w range on these micros, max. > We are in a cooler climate too maybe than most, around the Reno Tahoe area. > I have LG 310’s on S280’s that are seeing flattening on the Enlighten > output graphs midday now in the spring. > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jay > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 03, 2021 12:46 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations > > > > Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and locations > around the country. > > > > I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it > out. > > > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > > I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I did > a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial roof > tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W module on > an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% less > annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with the > 385W module. > > > > Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+ > on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is > identical for both inverters? > > > > If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it may > vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here > results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the > morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping > increase. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at > 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light > commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? > > > > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Mar 3 20:35:49 2021 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 20:35:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've never really trusted PVWatts on this. I just did a quick test using my location in the northeast, with all the standard values and then just changing the DC to AC ratio. It's telling me that a ratio of 1.5 is almost exactly the same as a ratio of 1, and that around 1.3 is best. You actually lose about 2% at 0.5 and about 8% production at a ratio of 2. So I can only conclude that either PVWatts does not have a great calculation, or the efficiency loss due to not running the inverter at rated power is worse than I assumed. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 6:14 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I've used that document many times when clients question the ratio. I wish > I knew exactly how the PVWATTS ratio calculation worked. I know there's > information on how this is all done, but I don't really have the time or > inclination to study it. I'm wondering if someone knows how accurate It is. > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 4:04 PM Jay wrote: > >> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and locations >> around the country. >> >> I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it >> out. >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>  >> I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I >> did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial >> roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W >> module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% >> less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with >> the 385W module. >> >> Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+ >> on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is >> identical for both inverters? >> >> If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it >> may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here >> results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the >> morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping >> increase. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at >>> 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light >>> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? >>> >>> Jason >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtedeyan at taitem.com Wed Mar 3 20:40:05 2021 From: dtedeyan at taitem.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 20:40:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Then just as a follow up, I looked at the SMA-41 datasheet. This shows that it runs at it's highest efficiency when the output power / rated power is about 0.4 to 0.6, and the only real loss in efficiency comes when you are running at about 0.1 and below. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 8:35 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > I've never really trusted PVWatts on this. I just did a quick test using > my location in the northeast, with all the standard values and then just > changing the DC to AC ratio. It's telling me that a ratio of 1.5 is almost > exactly the same as a ratio of 1, and that around 1.3 is best. You actually > lose about 2% at 0.5 and about 8% production at a ratio of 2. > > So I can only conclude that either PVWatts does not have a great > calculation, or the efficiency loss due to not running the inverter at > rated power is worse than I assumed. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 6:14 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I've used that document many times when clients question the ratio. I >> wish I knew exactly how the PVWATTS ratio calculation worked. I know >> there's information on how this is all done, but I don't really have the >> time or inclination to study it. I'm wondering if someone knows how >> accurate It is. >> >> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 4:04 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and >>> locations around the country. >>> >>> I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it >>> out. >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I >>> did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial >>> roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W >>> module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% >>> less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with >>> the 385W module. >>> >>> Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the >>> IQ7+ on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output >>> current is identical for both inverters? >>> >>> If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it >>> may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here >>> results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the >>> morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping >>> increase. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous >>>> at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light >>>> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 07:12:48 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 05:12:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, I think Helioscope is more suited for this analysis. If you send me the location, tilt, orientation, array type (roof or ground) and modules that you'd like to compare, I can quickly model this for you. Quite easy to do. They also have a month free trial I believe if you would like to play with it Thanks On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:40 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Then just as a follow up, I looked at the SMA-41 datasheet. This shows > that it runs at it's highest efficiency when the output power / rated > power is about 0.4 to 0.6, and the only real loss in efficiency comes when > you are running at about 0.1 and below. > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 8:35 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> I've never really trusted PVWatts on this. I just did a quick test using >> my location in the northeast, with all the standard values and then just >> changing the DC to AC ratio. It's telling me that a ratio of 1.5 is almost >> exactly the same as a ratio of 1, and that around 1.3 is best. You actually >> lose about 2% at 0.5 and about 8% production at a ratio of 2. >> >> So I can only conclude that either PVWatts does not have a great >> calculation, or the efficiency loss due to not running the inverter at >> rated power is worse than I assumed. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 6:14 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I've used that document many times when clients question the ratio. I >>> wish I knew exactly how the PVWATTS ratio calculation worked. I know >>> there's information on how this is all done, but I don't really have the >>> time or inclination to study it. I'm wondering if someone knows how >>> accurate It is. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 4:04 PM Jay wrote: >>> >>>> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and >>>> locations around the country. >>>> >>>> I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it >>>> out. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I >>>> did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial >>>> roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W >>>> module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% >>>> less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with >>>> the 385W module. >>>> >>>> Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the >>>> IQ7+ on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output >>>> current is identical for both inverters? >>>> >>>> If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it >>>> may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here >>>> results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the >>>> morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping >>>> increase. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous >>>>> at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light >>>>> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Mar 4 08:25:58 2021 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 08:25:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jason, You should dig into the PVWatts help documentation. They get into pretty good detail on how their calculations work. You might find the answer you're looking for there. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:14 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I've used that document many times when clients question the ratio. I wish > I knew exactly how the PVWATTS ratio calculation worked. I know there's > information on how this is all done, but I don't really have the time or > inclination to study it. I'm wondering if someone knows how accurate It is. > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 4:04 PM Jay wrote: > >> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and locations >> around the country. >> >> I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it >> out. >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>  >> I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I >> did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial >> roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W >> module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% >> less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with >> the 385W module. >> >> Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+ >> on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is >> identical for both inverters? >> >> If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it >> may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here >> results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the >> morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping >> increase. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at >>> 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light >>> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? >>> >>> Jason >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 4 13:22:12 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:22:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Piggyback RS-485 Message-ID: Does anyone have two of these on the shelf that will work with both Sunny Boys (SB9000TL-US-12) and Sunny Islands (SI6048-US-10)? If you're willing to part with them I need a couple quickly. Contact me off list please. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Mar 4 14:21:33 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2021 14:21:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Code Question Message-ID: <1614885688866.5813491531185914@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, I believe it is a code requirement to install conduits in their entirety before pulling wire through, and that this applies to all types of rigid conduit. Is this correct? Does anyone know where in the NEC this is stated? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO ME Licence 4526 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Mar 4 15:22:24 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 13:22:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Code Question In-Reply-To: <1614885688866.5813491531185914@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1614885688866.5813491531185914@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <751CD1EA-45FD-42AF-B70E-3CB34D1098DE@solarenergy.org> 300.18 Brian > On Mar 4, 2021, at 1:11 PM, Drake wrote: > >  Hello Wrenches, > > I believe it is a code requirement to install conduits in their entirety before pulling wire through, and that this applies to all types of rigid conduit. > > Is this correct? Does anyone know where in the NEC this is stated? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO ME Licence 4526 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 4 15:45:27 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 15:45:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations In-Reply-To: References: <829236BE-3F41-4934-9AA7-70348F0BC6DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mac Lewis was nice enough to run some Helioscope simulations for me (thank you, Mac). The numbers were almost identical to PVWATTS in that per kW, you get about 1% less energy yield with a 420W/IQ7A than a 385W/IQ7+ when operating at 208Vac. Given that the IQ7A is more costly, and presumably the higher powered modules will start off at a higher $/w cost, it probably doesn't make sense to use the 420W/IQ7A on a commercial building, but the energy yield differences were much smaller than I anticipated. On the flip side, higher energy density is an obvious choice if maximum utilization of the roof is more important than a small difference in ROI. I'm still trying to get a definitive reason that Enphase lists the IQ7+ at a constant 290W for 240/208 (1.21A/1.39A output currents, respectively), but the IQ7A is rated at 349W for 240V and 290W for 208V (1.45A current for both output voltages). Jason On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 8:36 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > I've never really trusted PVWatts on this. I just did a quick test using > my location in the northeast, with all the standard values and then just > changing the DC to AC ratio. It's telling me that a ratio of 1.5 is almost > exactly the same as a ratio of 1, and that around 1.3 is best. You actually > lose about 2% at 0.5 and about 8% production at a ratio of 2. > > So I can only conclude that either PVWatts does not have a great > calculation, or the efficiency loss due to not running the inverter at > rated power is worse than I assumed. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 6:14 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I've used that document many times when clients question the ratio. I >> wish I knew exactly how the PVWATTS ratio calculation worked. I know >> there's information on how this is all done, but I don't really have the >> time or inclination to study it. I'm wondering if someone knows how >> accurate It is. >> >> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 4:04 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and >>> locations around the country. >>> >>> I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it >>> out. >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I >>> did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial >>> roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W >>> module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% >>> less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with >>> the 385W module. >>> >>> Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the >>> IQ7+ on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output >>> current is identical for both inverters? >>> >>> If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it >>> may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here >>> results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the >>> morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping >>> increase. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous >>>> at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light >>>> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this? >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 20:54:49 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 18:54:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Field convertible Lithium bank Message-ID: Hey wrenches, Is anyone familiar with a solid Lithium solution that could be reconfigured in the field from 24V to 48V in the future? Probably in the neighborhood of 20 kWh. Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Mar 5 20:39:11 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 17:39:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Field convertible Lithium bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mac, You could use the 24 Volt LFP packs from BigBattery.com.  It's not a closed loop system with inverter but they have a solid BMS, a good reputation and business model and are coming on strong with new models. They did have a recent issue with some leaking cells - they found 11 out of thousands and are addressing that now.  They use prismatic cells - really quality BMS - cells swappable - come in 6 KWH increments for the 24 V "GRILA" packs: good price point - email me off-list for 10% discount code. https://bigbattery.com/products/24v-grila/ Hope that helps! Best, Jeff > Mac Lewis > March 4, 2021 at 5:54 PM > Hey wrenches, > > Is anyone familiar with a solid Lithium solution that could be > reconfigured in the field from 24V to 48V in the future?  Probably in > the neighborhood of 20 kWh. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sat Mar 6 20:32:24 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 17:32:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Field convertible Lithium bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d75e4e1-9881-5678-4882-52df4b735f38@villagepowerdesign.com> Oh and I forgot to say that that battery comes with Anderson Connectors as the terminals - so easy to reconfigure from 24 to 48 in the future - if you used 4 "Grillas" you'd have 24 KWH rated and easy to go from 2s2p to 4s buy just plugging in a couple of new cables. hope that helps! Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater VillageLab Village Power Design linkedin www.villagelab.net www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jeff Clearwater > March 5, 2021 at 5:39 PM > Hey Mac, > > You could use the 24 Volt LFP packs from BigBattery.com.  It's not a > closed loop system with inverter but they have a solid BMS, a good > reputation and business model and are coming on strong with new > models. They did have a recent issue with some leaking cells - they > found 11 out of thousands and are addressing that now.  They use > prismatic cells - really quality BMS - cells swappable - come in 6 KWH > increments for the 24 V "GRILA" packs: > > good price point - email me off-list for 10% discount code. > > https://bigbattery.com/products/24v-grila/ > > Hope that helps! > > Best, > > Jeff > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Mac Lewis > March 4, 2021 at 5:54 PM > Hey wrenches, > > Is anyone familiar with a solid Lithium solution that could be > reconfigured in the field from 24V to 48V in the future?  Probably in > the neighborhood of 20 kWh. > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james at abundantsolar.com Mon Mar 8 16:52:09 2021 From: james at abundantsolar.com (James Reismiller) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 21:52:09 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer Message-ID: Hi Folks, We're getting a lot of installations on new roofs these days and our old trick of using a soaker hose to keep the roof cool to avoid shingle damage isn't working anymore. The shingles get soft and walking on them damages them. I hear the newer shingles have a polymer that keeps them soft for the first year or so except in cold weather. Rather than wait for cooler weather, does anyone have suggestions for protecting the new roof during installation in warmer weather? Thanks! Be Well, James Reismiller He/Him/His NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(r) Abundant Solar 541-231-8072 xt. 3 CCB#175919 [cid:image001.png at 01D71422.3AFF6A60] www.abundantsolar.com "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 7017 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Mar 8 17:25:04 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 14:25:04 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James - That's interesting to hear about newer model shingles staying softer. We work solely in the San Francisco Bay Area where heat isn't typically a big problem, yet we still run into soft composition shingle issues on warmer days, especially on new roofs. We use scraps of old carpet cut into 18" strips and squares, and also use Yellow Spaghetti Mat: https://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=18959 It is a constant effort to keep reminding the crews to use roof protection because it is a pain to install and doesn't have the same good grip as composition shingles. However, as you know, it doesn't take much to damage the roof. It is also good to train the crews on how to walk on roofs - make sure that they don't twist their feet or slide their feet, both will wear the granules off the shingles. Don't use heavy duty work boots - stick with sport type shoes or light hiking shoes. Work boots (like the steel toe type) will really damage a composition shingle roof fast. Sometimes we get an extra early start and pull off by mid afternoon if it is really hot. August Luminalt On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 1:52 PM James Reismiller wrote: > Hi Folks, > > We’re getting a lot of installations on new roofs these days and our old > trick of using a soaker hose to keep the roof cool to avoid shingle damage > isn’t working anymore. The shingles get soft and walking on them damages > them. I hear the newer shingles have a polymer that keeps them soft for the > first year or so except in cold weather. Rather than wait for cooler > weather, does anyone have suggestions for protecting the new roof during > installation in warmer weather? > > Thanks! > > > > Be Well, > > James Reismiller > > He/Him/His > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > > Abundant Solar > > 541-231-8072 xt. 3 > > CCB#175919 > > www.abundantsolar.com > > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > > > ~William McDonough > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 7017 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 17:06:44 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:06:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02F6BFBE-6CF1-46D7-AE0F-138E222EEA94@gmail.com> This stuff is great https://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=18959 Spaghetti roof walkway jay > On Mar 8, 2021, at 2:52 PM, James Reismiller wrote: > > Hi Folks, > We’re getting a lot of installations on new roofs these days and our old trick of using a soaker hose to keep the roof cool to avoid shingle damage isn’t working anymore. The shingles get soft and walking on them damages them. I hear the newer shingles have a polymer that keeps them soft for the first year or so except in cold weather. Rather than wait for cooler weather, does anyone have suggestions for protecting the new roof during installation in warmer weather? > Thanks! > > Be Well, > James Reismiller > He/Him/His > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > Abundant Solar > 541-231-8072 xt. 3 > CCB#175919 > > www.abundantsolar.com > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Mon Mar 8 18:02:02 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 18:02:02 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summe Message-ID: <3BE8F385-20C8-4476-82CC-A4A9A2E2F036@sunwindpowerinc.com> We install a lot of system on asphalt shingles in the hot sun of the Midwest and have found one really good solution that keeps the roof in tact and us safe- “Cougar Paws” roof boots. No mats to trip on and I’ve found that they actually speed up our installs because of the added grip plus they’re very gentle on the roof. Highly recommend checking them out. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2021, at 5:52 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. > Today's Topics: > > 1. Protecting New Roofing during Summer (James Reismiller) > 2. Re: Protecting New Roofing during Summer (August Goers) > 3. Re: Protecting New Roofing during Summer (jay) > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Mon Mar 8 18:27:12 2021 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 23:27:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summe In-Reply-To: <3BE8F385-20C8-4476-82CC-A4A9A2E2F036@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <3BE8F385-20C8-4476-82CC-A4A9A2E2F036@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <129281900.543380.1615246032605@mail.yahoo.com> Great Question James.  We too have tried sprinklers and soaker hoses, rugs and mats with only mixed success.  After years of blistered feet and even burned butts we try to make a point of being off a hot roof by noon.  I also try to get our guys to think of walking on a roof as one might walking on rice paper without tearing it. Kung Fu Rice Paper FAIL | | | | | | | | | | | Kung Fu Rice Paper FAIL | | | Kung Fu Rice Paper SUCCEED | | | | | | | | | | | Kung Fu Rice Paper SUCCEED | | |  Andrew KoyaanisqatsiPresidentSolar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future.503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com On Monday, March 8, 2021, 3:02:10 PM PST, Jeremy Coxon wrote: We install a lot of system on asphalt shingles in the hot sun of the Midwest and have found one really good solution that keeps the roof in tact and us safe- “Cougar Paws” roof boots.  No mats to trip on and I’ve found that they actually speed up our installs because of the added grip plus they’re very gentle on the roof.  Highly recommend checking them out. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 8, 2021, at 5:52 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to >    re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >    http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >    re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at >    re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. > Today's Topics: > >  1. Protecting New Roofing during Summer (James Reismiller) >  2. Re: Protecting New Roofing during Summer (August Goers) >  3. Re: Protecting New Roofing during Summer (jay) > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Mar 8 18:01:49 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:01:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57544BB6-9D59-41E5-BF0D-5F833FC892F2@millersolar.com> Carpet scraps. Sometimes upside down is better. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Mar 8, 2021, at 1:52 PM, James Reismiller wrote: > >  > Hi Folks, > We’re getting a lot of installations on new roofs these days and our old trick of using a soaker hose to keep the roof cool to avoid shingle damage isn’t working anymore. The shingles get soft and walking on them damages them. I hear the newer shingles have a polymer that keeps them soft for the first year or so except in cold weather. Rather than wait for cooler weather, does anyone have suggestions for protecting the new roof during installation in warmer weather? > Thanks! > > Be Well, > James Reismiller > He/Him/His > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > Abundant Solar > 541-231-8072 xt. 3 > CCB#175919 > > www.abundantsolar.com > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > ~William McDonough > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Mar 8 19:33:27 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 00:33:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summe In-Reply-To: <3BE8F385-20C8-4476-82CC-A4A9A2E2F036@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <3BE8F385-20C8-4476-82CC-A4A9A2E2F036@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Spaghetti walk pad. https://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=18959 Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1463 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Mar 8, 2021, at 4:02 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: We install a lot of system on asphalt shingles in the hot sun of the Midwest and have found one really good solution that keeps the roof in tact and us safe- “Cougar Paws” roof boots. No mats to trip on and I’ve found that they actually speed up our installs because of the added grip plus they’re very gentle on the roof. Highly recommend checking them out. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone On Mar 8, 2021, at 5:52 PM, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 15:03:03 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:03:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello James, Before I knew any better, I used to lay down non-slip foam drawer liners—usually available at Lowe's/HD in 10 ft rolls. See attached photo. A couple words of caution: They don't hold up quite as well as spaghetti mat, and they tend to get blown around the roof in high winds. Now that I know better... I would put in another vote for Cougar Paws. They're like having spaghetti mat attached to your feet. They feature removable/replaceable pads. We ended up buying a pair for every member of our install crew. I would advise reserving them for roof work, though. Wear your normal shoes on the drive to/from the jobsite, and don't wear the Cougar Paws while digging a ditch or doing other ground-based work. One other solution that I have always favored are ordinary foam blocks from couch cushions (cover slip removed). They are especially helpful/comforting for tasks requiring you to lay down on the roof - performing wire management under the array and such. The padding is usually available at craft stores, or you can do what I did and just scout out old couches that people toss to the curb. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 9:52 PM James Reismiller wrote: > We’re getting a lot of installations on new roofs these days and our old > trick of using a soaker hose to keep the roof cool to avoid shingle damage > isn’t working anymore. The shingles get soft and walking on them damages > them. I hear the newer shingles have a polymer that keeps them soft for the > first year or so except in cold weather. Rather than wait for cooler > weather, does anyone have suggestions for protecting the new roof during > installation in warmer weather? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Drawer Liner Roof Walkway.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 580200 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Mar 9 15:47:51 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 12:47:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Corey and Others Who Have Used Cougar Paws: Have you found that these special shoes will protect the roof when it is hot out? It seems like they are touting the good grip on their website, but not necessarily that they protect the roof. Best, August On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:03 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Hello James, > > Before I knew any better, I used to lay down non-slip foam drawer > liners—usually available at Lowe's/HD in 10 ft rolls. See attached photo. > A couple words of caution: They don't hold up quite as well as spaghetti > mat, and they tend to get blown around the roof in high winds. > > Now that I know better... I would put in another vote for Cougar Paws. > They're like having spaghetti mat attached to your feet. They feature > removable/replaceable pads. We ended up buying a pair for every member of > our install crew. I would advise reserving them for roof work, though. Wear > your normal shoes on the drive to/from the jobsite, and don't wear the > Cougar Paws while digging a ditch or doing other ground-based work. > > One other solution that I have always favored are ordinary foam blocks > from couch cushions (cover slip removed). They are especially > helpful/comforting for tasks requiring you to lay down on the roof - > performing wire management under the array and such. The padding is usually > available at craft stores, or you can do what I did and just scout out old > couches that people toss to the curb. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 9:52 PM James Reismiller > wrote: > >> We’re getting a lot of installations on new roofs these days and our old >> trick of using a soaker hose to keep the roof cool to avoid shingle damage >> isn’t working anymore. The shingles get soft and walking on them damages >> them. I hear the newer shingles have a polymer that keeps them soft for the >> first year or so except in cold weather. Rather than wait for cooler >> weather, does anyone have suggestions for protecting the new roof during >> installation in warmer weather? >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Tue Mar 9 17:49:17 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:49:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer Message-ID: <5BBE2A42-C32C-462D-9102-9A2ED2E540A3@sunwindpowerinc.com> To answer your question August - they have replaceable foam soles that come in different densities. I know of nothing more forgiving than foam. There’s another brand that sells a strap on overshoe which uses the same principle - velcro bottom with different foam soles. I have a pair of those, but forget the brand. I’m not a huge fan because they’re so heavy. They are awesome for metal roofs when the pollen makes walking like ice skating, but we prefer cougar paws overall. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 Vice President MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Tue Mar 9 18:22:07 2021 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:22:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <340afb7a-5914-387b-5766-b6e08c2bce05@berkeleysolar.com> I wore cougar paws for many years. I still had to protect brand new asphalt shingle roofs if they were at all warm. On 3/9/2021 12:47 PM, August Goers wrote: > Corey and Others Who Have Used Cougar Paws: > > Have you found that these special shoes will protect the roof when it > is hot out? It seems like they are touting the good grip on their > website, but not necessarily that they protect the roof. > > Best, > > August > > > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:03 PM Corey Shalanski > wrote: > > Hello James, > > Before I knew any better, I used to lay down non-slip foam drawer > liners—usually available at Lowe's/HD in 10 ft rolls. See attached > photo. > A couple words of caution: They don't hold up quite as well as > spaghetti mat, and they tend to get blown around the roof in high > winds. > > Now that I know better... I would put in another vote for Cougar > Paws. They're like having spaghetti mat attached to your feet. > They feature removable/replaceable pads. We ended up buying a pair > for every member of our install crew. I would advise reserving > them for roof work, though. Wear your normal shoes on the drive > to/from the jobsite, and don't wear the Cougar Paws while digging > a ditch or doing other ground-based work. > > One other solution that I have always favored are ordinary foam > blocks from couch cushions (cover slip removed). They are > especially helpful/comforting for tasks requiring you to lay down > on the roof - performing wire management under the array and such. > The padding is usually available at craft stores, or you can do > what I did and just scout out old couches that people toss to the > curb. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 9:52 PM James Reismiller > > wrote: > > We’re getting a lot of installations on new roofs these days > and our old trick of using a soaker hose to keep the roof cool > to avoid shingle damage isn’t working anymore. The shingles > get soft and walking on them damages them. I hear the newer > shingles have a polymer that keeps them soft for the first > year or so except in cold weather. Rather than wait for cooler > weather, does anyone have suggestions for protecting the new > roof during installation in warmer weather? > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Mar 9 18:47:13 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 18:47:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: <5BBE2A42-C32C-462D-9102-9A2ED2E540A3@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <5BBE2A42-C32C-462D-9102-9A2ED2E540A3@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Jeremy, Are you saying the foam soles are great for metal roofs or are you talking about the SteelWalker magnetic boots from Cougar Paws? Jason On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:49 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > To answer your question August - they have replaceable foam soles that > come in different densities. I know of nothing more forgiving than foam. > There’s another brand that sells a strap on overshoe which uses the same > principle - velcro bottom with different foam soles. I have a pair of > those, but forget the brand. I’m not a huge fan because they’re so heavy. > They are awesome for metal roofs when the pollen makes walking like ice > skating, but we prefer cougar paws overall. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > Vice President > MWBE Certified > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Mar 10 10:34:46 2021 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:34:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: <5BBE2A42-C32C-462D-9102-9A2ED2E540A3@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <5BBE2A42-C32C-462D-9102-9A2ED2E540A3@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <9DE8565D-5746-4FF5-9289-8945154CB440@skyfireenergy.com> Jeremy, I think the strap-on ones you’re referring too are Korkers (sp?). They have a very strong Velcro bottom that you can change out from foam, a cleat (with little metal spikes that’s great for cedar or ice, and maybe a felt? Yes, they are kind of big and klunky. Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Mar 9, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > To answer your question August - they have replaceable foam soles that come in different densities. I know of nothing more forgiving than foam. There’s another brand that sells a strap on overshoe which uses the same principle - velcro bottom with different foam soles. I have a pair of those, but forget the brand. I’m not a huge fan because they’re so heavy. They are awesome for metal roofs when the pollen makes walking like ice skating, but we prefer cougar paws overall. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > Vice President > MWBE Certified > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Mar 10 14:34:04 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 14:34:04 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA sunnydesignweb no longer showing TS4 as an adder Message-ID: It’s been a couple of months since I was on SMA’s sunnydesignweb portal - I just noticed that they have removed the option to add rapid shutdown using TS4. Anyone have any insight into this? I’m guessing that since SMA is Sunspec and there was a recall on SMA branded Tigo TS4’s they decided to go RSD agnostic? What are you guys doing for RSD on SMA resi systems? , Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Mar 10 15:12:04 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 14:12:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA sunnydesignweb no longer showing TS4 as an adder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03df01d715e9$a414d170$ec3e7450$@solarcentex.com> Recall on Tigo TS4??? I missed that. Yikes. Scot Arey From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 1:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA sunnydesignweb no longer showing TS4 as an adder It’s been a couple of months since I was on SMA’s sunnydesignweb portal - I just noticed that they have removed the option to add rapid shutdown using TS4. Anyone have any insight into this? I’m guessing that since SMA is Sunspec and there was a recall on SMA branded Tigo TS4’s they decided to go RSD agnostic? What are you guys doing for RSD on SMA resi systems? , Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Mar 10 15:41:11 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 15:41:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian spec sheet " IEEE 1574.1" typo Message-ID: if this has been mentioned before my apologies.... heads up - I am installing a GS4048A model for grid tie here in VT. The local utility would not allow at first since it did not meet our New England interconnection specs of IEEE 1547. The spec sheet typo SHOULD have stated "IEEE 1547" compliance. " IEEE 1574" does not exist. The outback doc "Statement of Compliance" does state IEEE 1547 & 1547.1 approval correctly. Now I am good to go with my utility. And I am talking about the latest spec sheet. Outback Doc dept. were unaware as to this typo until I told them, and looking back it has been an ongoing snafu in previous versions of the Radian spec sheet. Just sayin' if necessary for a similar utility challenge. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Mar 10 19:16:45 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:16:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [SMA sunnydesignweb no longer showing TS4 as an adder In-Reply-To: <03df01d715e9$a414d170$ec3e7450$@solarcentex.com> References: <03df01d715e9$a414d170$ec3e7450$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <6EDF2B63-0864-46D5-AB97-3D264CAA49D6@sunwindpowerinc.com> https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2019/07/sma-recalls-ts4-r-f-42-rapid-shutdown-device/ Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2021, at 3:12 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > >  > Recall on Tigo TS4??? > > I missed that. Yikes. > > Scot Arey > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 1:34 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA sunnydesignweb no longer showing TS4 as an adder > > It’s been a couple of months since I was on SMA’s sunnydesignweb portal - I just noticed that they have removed the option to add rapid shutdown using TS4. Anyone have any insight into this? I’m guessing that since SMA is Sunspec and there was a recall on SMA branded Tigo TS4’s they decided to go RSD agnostic? > > What are you guys doing for RSD on SMA resi systems? > , > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Mar 10 19:17:07 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:17:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 9, 2021, at 6:47 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > Jeremy, > > Are you saying the foam soles are great for metal roofs or are you talking about the SteelWalker magnetic boots from Cougar Paws? > > Jason > > >> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:49 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: >> To answer your question August - they have replaceable foam soles that come in different densities. I know of nothing more forgiving than foam. There’s another brand that sells a strap on overshoe which uses the same principle - velcro bottom with different foam soles. I have a pair of those, but forget the brand. I’m not a huge fan because they’re so heavy. They are awesome for metal roofs when the pollen makes walking like ice skating, but we prefer cougar paws overall. >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> Vice President >> MWBE Certified >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Mar 10 19:34:00 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:34:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2715F8A8-DF10-456A-85E9-5F08165F056E@sunwindpowerinc.com> Foam soles for both asphalt and metal- we always use them on asphalt shingles over 5/12 for grip, also when outdoor temps hit 80’s for roof protection and on every metal roof for same reasons. We get so much pollen here, the roofs turn yellow, so even a 2/12’s painted metal roof is like working on a kids slide - ya gotta hang on or your moving. I’ve never tried any sort of magnetic boot, but now you’ve got my curiosity piqued. Spider-Man watch out! And yes that’s the name -Korkers. They offer a few different soles for different purposes - one of my guys was a fly fishing guide and had a pair that he used in streams with soles that were meant just for that purpose. The foam soles I use flake off pretty quickly IF you rotate your feel on asphalt, so for me it sort of taught me to be extra gentle as I move around- sort of in that ‘Grasshopper’ kind of way. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 9, 2021, at 6:47 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > Jeremy, > > Are you saying the foam soles are great for metal roofs or are you talking about the SteelWalker magnetic boots from Cougar Paws? > > Jason > > >> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:49 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: >> To answer your question August - they have replaceable foam soles that come in different densities. I know of nothing more forgiving than foam. There’s another brand that sells a strap on overshoe which uses the same principle - velcro bottom with different foam soles. I have a pair of those, but forget the brand. I’m not a huge fan because they’re so heavy. They are awesome for metal roofs when the pollen makes walking like ice skating, but we prefer cougar paws overall. >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> Vice President >> MWBE Certified >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 10 20:33:59 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 20:33:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer In-Reply-To: <2715F8A8-DF10-456A-85E9-5F08165F056E@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <2715F8A8-DF10-456A-85E9-5F08165F056E@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: People say never walk on a wet metal roof, but many metal roofs up to 6 in 12 pitch are stickier when wet with vibram soles than when they dry. I find this to be the case especially with new er Kynar finished roofs. I wish I had a shoe closet in my truck sometimes. On Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 7:34 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > Foam soles for both asphalt and metal- we always use them on asphalt > shingles over 5/12 for grip, also when outdoor temps hit 80’s for roof > protection and on every metal roof for same reasons. We get so much pollen > here, the roofs turn yellow, so even a 2/12’s painted metal roof is like > working on a kids slide - ya gotta hang on or your moving. I’ve never > tried any sort of magnetic boot, but now you’ve got my curiosity piqued. > Spider-Man watch out! > > And yes that’s the name -Korkers. They offer a few different soles for > different purposes - one of my guys was a fly fishing guide and had a pair > that he used in streams with soles that were meant just for that purpose. > The foam soles I use flake off pretty quickly IF you rotate your feel on > asphalt, so for me it sort of taught me to be extra gentle as I move > around- sort of in that ‘Grasshopper’ kind of way. > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 9, 2021, at 6:47 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > Jeremy, > > Are you saying the foam soles are great for metal roofs or are you talking > about the SteelWalker magnetic boots from Cougar Paws? > > Jason > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:49 PM Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > >> To answer your question August - they have replaceable foam soles that >> come in different densities. I know of nothing more forgiving than foam. >> There’s another brand that sells a strap on overshoe which uses the same >> principle - velcro bottom with different foam soles. I have a pair of >> those, but forget the brand. I’m not a huge fan because they’re so heavy. >> They are awesome for metal roofs when the pollen makes walking like ice >> skating, but we prefer cougar paws overall. >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> Vice President >> MWBE Certified >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 11:40:27 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 11:40:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer Message-ID: Hi August, I misunderstood James' question a bit at first, but having reread it I would agree that shingles are still subject to softening and potential tearing when they are new and the time is hot. I used to judge the relative success of our roof protection measures by the amount of aggregate found in the gutter at the end of the installation. It is remarkable how much less skidding occurs - and subsequently how much less aggregate gets displaced - when you are wearing Cougar Paws. In that sense at least, I believe their "good grip" does help to protect the roof, no matter the weather (hot, cold, etc.) or shingle age. BTW, I like the walking-on-rice-paper analogy. I would make that video mandatory viewing for each crew member before they climb the ladder on the first day of a hot day/new shingle installation - not to influence their working/safety habits, but just so that they keep the "soft step" mantra in mind. Sometimes you can only do so much, though, and if it looks like shingle damage is going to be a real problem then it might be best to have a realistic conversation with the customer and propose delaying the project a few months? -- Corey On Wed, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:47 PM August Goers wrote: > > Corey and Others Who Have Used Cougar Paws: > > Have you found that these special shoes will protect the roof when it is > hot out? It seems like they are touting the good grip on their website, but > not necessarily that they protect the roof. > > Best, > > August > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Mar 12 17:42:22 2021 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 22:42:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [SMA sunnydesignweb no longer showing TS4 as an adder In-Reply-To: <6EDF2B63-0864-46D5-AB97-3D264CAA49D6@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <03df01d715e9$a414d170$ec3e7450$@solarcentex.com> <6EDF2B63-0864-46D5-AB97-3D264CAA49D6@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Scot – As stated in the article (from July 2019) that Jeremy linked to, this recall was to correct an issue with the TS4-R-F units to ensure compliance with SunSpec standard. Luckily the issue was caught right at product launch. Much of the stock was able to be intercepted at our warehouses and the issue rectified before customer delivery. All stock of this SMA TS4-R-F device has been sold. SMA now maintains an “SMA compatible” SunSpec certified rapid shutdown receiver list – these are the only approved devices for use with SMA America residential and commercial inverters if using SunSpec for rapid shutdown compliance. The list can be found on the SMA America website here: https://files.sma.de/downloads/SunSpec-Kompatibilitaet-TI-en-11.pdf The other two devices on the above list (besides the SMA TS4-R-F-42) are commercially available and have been tested by SMA to ensure the SunSpec shutdown functionality does not interfere with any other operational or safety function of either the Sunny Boy US-41 or CORE1 US-41 inverter lines. Both of these inverter families have a SunSpec certified rapid shutdown transmitter built into them, allowing straightforward code compliance with an easy install while providing a reliable system. And related to the original inquiry, SMA did remove the module level devices as part of the Sunny Design program as a streamlining of the design steps. Thanks! Mike SMA America Michael Mahon Technical Trainer, Solar Academy 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300 Rocklin, CA 95765 U.S.A. Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy website Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English and Spanish [cid:image002.png at 01D71756.49A2EEC0] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image004.jpg at 01D71754.90A28260] [SMAAFORUM_ICON] Follow, Like, Share This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 5:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] [SMA sunnydesignweb no longer showing TS4 as an adder https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2019/07/sma-recalls-ts4-r-f-42-rapid-shutdown-device/ Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2021, at 3:12 PM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote:  Recall on Tigo TS4??? I missed that. Yikes. Scot Arey From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 1:34 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA sunnydesignweb no longer showing TS4 as an adder It’s been a couple of months since I was on SMA’s sunnydesignweb portal - I just noticed that they have removed the option to add rapid shutdown using TS4. Anyone have any insight into this? I’m guessing that since SMA is Sunspec and there was a recall on SMA branded Tigo TS4’s they decided to go RSD agnostic? 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Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 88707 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Mar 15 15:55:41 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:55:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tax credit Message-ID: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, A client would like to have an 11 kW residential system installed. He would like to utilize the federal tax credit, but is retired and doesn’t have sufficient income to benefit. His son would finance most of the system if he could get the credit. His son is grown and lives out of state. Is there a good way to accomplish this? Should they set up a PPA? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional athens-electric.com -- From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Mar 15 16:08:12 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 13:08:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tax credit In-Reply-To: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> References: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <6D5E5002-69DF-4E6E-80AD-9669CBA74F7F@starlightsolar.com> Hi Drake, Whoever owns the property claims the credit. Unless things have changed, the unused portion of the credit can be carried over for up to 20 years. He could use portion of it each year. Larry On Mar 15, 2021, at 12:55 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hello Wrenches, A client would like to have an 11 kW residential system installed. He would like to utilize the federal tax credit, but is retired and doesn’t have sufficient income to benefit. His son would finance most of the system if he could get the credit. His son is grown and lives out of state. Is there a good way to accomplish this? Should they set up a PPA? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional athens-electric.com -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Mar 15 16:13:59 2021 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:13:59 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tax credit In-Reply-To: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> References: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: An early draw on an IRA is a good way to create a tax liability where none exists. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 2:56 PM wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > A client would like to have an 11 kW residential system installed. He > would like to utilize the federal tax credit, but is retired and doesn’t > have sufficient income to benefit. > > His son would finance most of the system if he could get the credit. His > son is grown and lives out of state. Is there a good way to accomplish > this? Should they set up a PPA? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > athens-electric.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 15 19:14:13 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 16:14:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tax credit In-Reply-To: References: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <6afe166b5180e044b408be22085b0230@127.0.0.1> Even better to convert to a ROTH IRA and not have to worry about future taxes, if he can afford cash for the System. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:13:59 -0500, Kristopher Schmid wrote: An early draw on an IRA is a good way to create a tax liability where none exists. Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 137 West 1st Avenue Luck, WI 54853 www.legacysolar.com [3] 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 2:56 PM wrote: Hello Wrenches, A client would like to have an 11 kW residential system installed. He would like to utilize the federal tax credit, but is retired and doesn't have sufficient income to benefit. His son would finance most of the system if he could get the credit. His son is grown and lives out of state. Is there a good way to accomplish this? Should they set up a PPA? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional athens-electric.com [5] -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.legacysolar.com [4] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [5] http://athens-electric.com [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 20:15:09 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 19:15:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.8(A) - Bifacial Modules Message-ID: Wrenches, I am curious if anyone can offer guidance on how to treat the *multiple* Isc ratings for bifacial modules when calculating the maximum circuit current for PV source/output circuits. As a reminder, the maximum circuit current is defined as "the sum of the short-circuit current ratings of the PV modules connected in parallel multiplied by 125 percent." (NEC 2020) However, bifacial module datasheets generally include *two* short-circuit current ratings - one at STC and another at BSTC ("Bifaciality given for rear side irradiation on top of front side STC"). As an example, a certain bifacial module has an Isc @ STC rating of 10.6 A and an Isc @ BSTC rating of 11.6 A. What are designers using for the 690.8(A) calculation? Still sticking with the STC rating? or instead using the BSTC rating? or perhaps a hybrid of both (depending on some qualitative assessment of the site conditions and expected back side gain)? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Mar 16 10:00:26 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 10:00:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tax credit In-Reply-To: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> References: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The credit does not need to be taken in one year. It can be spaced out over successive years.  Chris On 3/15/2021 3:55 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > A client would like to have an 11 kW residential system installed. He > would like to utilize the federal tax credit, but is retired and > doesn’t have sufficient income to benefit. > > His son would finance most of the system if he could get the credit. > His son is grown and lives out of state. Is there a good way to > accomplish this? Should they set up a PPA? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > athens-electric.com > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 10:43:01 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 10:43:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tax credit In-Reply-To: References: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The last I heard, the residential tax credit could only be rolled forward 1 year - so spread out over 2 years. But I'm not an accountant, so if anyone authoritative knows differently, I'd love to but corrected. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 10:39 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > The credit does not need to be taken in one year. It can be spaced out > over successive years. Chris > On 3/15/2021 3:55 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > > Hello Wrenches, > > A client would like to have an 11 kW residential system installed. He > would like to utilize the federal tax credit, but is retired and doesn’t > have sufficient income to benefit. > > His son would finance most of the system if he could get the credit. His > son is grown and lives out of state. Is there a good way to accomplish > this? Should they set up a PPA? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > athens-electric.com > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Mar 16 12:16:15 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:16:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Residential tax credit In-Reply-To: References: <07d9d095e9161cd3bec2a969300bd492@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <9dd4afd7-b01a-7e89-4787-da4aadc13770@entech-engineering.com> This link is not from IRS, and should be verified by a tax expert, but it says it can be carried forward for 20 years. https://www.recsolar.com/blogs/calculate-solar-tax-credit-2021/ Chris On 3/16/2021 10:43 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > The last I heard, the residential tax credit could only be rolled > forward 1 year - so spread out over 2 years. But I'm not an > accountant, so if anyone authoritative knows differently, I'd love to > but corrected. > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 10:39 AM Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > > The credit does not need to be taken in one year. It can be spaced > out over successive years.  Chris > > On 3/15/2021 3:55 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> A client would like to have an 11 kW residential system >> installed. He would like to utilize the federal tax credit, but >> is retired and doesn’t have sufficient income to benefit. >> >> His son would finance most of the system if he could get the >> credit. His son is grown and lives out of state. Is there a good >> way to accomplish this? Should they set up a PPA? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> athens-electric.com >> > -- >                         Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:18:36 2021 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 09:18:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.8(A) - Bifacial Modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Corey, I start off by using the BSTC value as the baseline Isc before I do the classic 1.25x1.25 multiplication. It does end up causing larger currents and oversizing the wire. Most of the time our projects have a strict DC Vdrop requirement so we're always oversizing the wire anyway, so it's not a big deal. However, for the Neher-McGrath calculations, I will typically run a SAM model and re-calculate the ISC that way (on 100kW and larger projects only). I base this off the SolarPro article from a few years back where you calculate Isc0 using nameplate Isc, cell temperature, irradiance, and the module current coefficient. For the irradiance, I use the front side POA and the anti-POA multiplied by the bifaciality factor - usually 70%. My last run had a situation where SAM was calculating a higher Isc value than the Isc0 equation value, so I will probably end up using that. It is, however, less than the traditional BSTC nameplate x 1.25 method. Regards Steven Lawrence, PE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Mar 17 18:35:40 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:35:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? Thanks, Drake -- From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 19:16:41 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 17:16:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Drake Which models are you interested in? Jay > On Mar 17, 2021, at 5:10 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? > > The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Mar 17 19:55:22 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:55:22 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F4828B2-EC47-4C14-9AB1-275211C56341@mavericksolar.com> It’s my understanding that they are exactly the same battery made in a line owned different family members. (More or less). I have used many of them interchangeably (not in the same system). Thank you, Maverick > On Mar 17, 2021, at 6:11 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? > > The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Mar 18 10:04:20 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 10:04:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5991021f067791bd0d58dfbcbf52b7c8@redwoodalliance.org> Hi Jay, We are looking at the GPL-4CT 6V to replace an existing bank of Sun Xtender 224 batteries. --- On 2021-03-17 19:16, Jay wrote: > Hi Drake > > Which models are you interested in? > > Jay > >> On Mar 17, 2021, at 5:10 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of >> Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? >> >> The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 09:35:14 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 07:35:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: <1F4828B2-EC47-4C14-9AB1-275211C56341@mavericksolar.com> References: <1F4828B2-EC47-4C14-9AB1-275211C56341@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <01264727-B074-4E70-8880-971DDFE33142@gmail.com> The technical manuals are identical as well as the specs I looked at. Drake is there a cost difference between them? Jay > On Mar 17, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > It’s my understanding that they are exactly the same battery made in a line owned different family members. (More or less). > > I have used many of them interchangeably (not in the same system). > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > >> On Mar 17, 2021, at 6:11 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? >> >> The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Mar 18 10:50:52 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 07:50:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: <1F4828B2-EC47-4C14-9AB1-275211C56341@mavericksolar.com> References: <1F4828B2-EC47-4C14-9AB1-275211C56341@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <70c8f31a69c26f6de7982978d63ab0e7@127.0.0.1> Also price the Full River. They are from China however but I do have a dealer in Texas that is a friend. He says he has had very similar results with both for Offgrid. He does warranty and sells both concorde and full river. Usually the problem on both, is undercharging! Who would have known Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:55:22 -0500, Maverick Brown wrote: > It's my understanding that they are exactly the same battery made in a > line owned different family members. (More or less). > > I have used many of them interchangeably (not in the same system). > > Thank you, > > Maverick > > >> On Mar 17, 2021, at 6:11 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of >> Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? >> >> The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Mar 18 12:39:00 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 09:39:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B190E5A-EDC5-47F9-9450-F19558745B1D@starlightsolar.com> FWIW, after selling Lifeline for about 13 years, we discontinued sales due to early battery failures. The capacity loss of a single battery in a series bank became very high to where some battery banks needed replacing in 1-3 years. Earlier batteries (from about 2001) were lasting 6 to 10 years. We had one customer that followed our recommendation to use high voltage and equalize regularly that had the batteries for 13 years before changing to Li-ion. That battery bank (12kWh, average discharge about 20% DoD) was sold to someone who is still using it. The early batteries were great and had our highest recommendation. We changed to installing Fullriver instead which has been as good as the early Lifeline batteries. I spoke with Lifeline about the early failures and their conclusion was that we or our customers were doing something wrong. We have probably installed over 600 Lifeline battery systems (2S2P and larger) over the years using practically identical power systems. I’m sure we did not decrease the care of our installations or customer education on proper use. I would like to know if anyone else experienced premature Lifeline failures, especially if it is recent. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems A typical install of Lifeline 2V cells, 15kWh bank, RV system, Magnum Energy, Midnite Solar On Mar 17, 2021, at 3:35 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hello Wrenches, Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? Thanks, Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lifeline-2v-bank-web.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 69603 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Thu Mar 18 16:48:26 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 14:48:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: <6B190E5A-EDC5-47F9-9450-F19558745B1D@starlightsolar.com> References: <6B190E5A-EDC5-47F9-9450-F19558745B1D@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <4d8bf7b1-b786-d08e-6fdb-cfa7f6f72f30@sindelarsolar.com> I had a similar experience, although I only installed Concorde SunXtenders, never using the Lifeline equivalents. After a few early experiences with SunXtenders lasting more than ten years in off grid use (usually the 12V 8Ds, in both series and parallel configurations), I sold and recommended them. Indeed, it was these early experiences that led me to promote AGM batteries in my 2010 Home Power off-grid batteries article. Since then, I had leakage issues with several sets of their 2-volt 900 and 1200 AH batteries - this is going back 7-9 years. In that same time period we were seeing premature loss of capacity in their 6-volt batteries, primarily the 400AH L16s and 300AH GC2Talls. I stopped recommending them and switched to Fullrivers (and more recently some equivalent Centennials, the house brand of battery distributor Battery Systems) and have had no failures of any sort yet - time will tell. Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* On 3/18/2021 10:39 AM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > FWIW, after selling Lifeline for about 13 years, we discontinued sales > due to early battery failures. The capacity loss of a single battery > in a series bank became very high to where some battery banks needed > replacing in 1-3 years. Earlier batteries (from about 2001)  were > lasting 6 to 10 years. We had one customer that followed our > recommendation to use high voltage and equalize regularly that had the > batteries for 13 years before changing to Li-ion. That battery bank > (12kWh, average discharge about 20% DoD) was sold to someone who is > still using it. > The early batteries were great and had our highest recommendation. We > changed to installing Fullriver instead which has been as good as the > early Lifeline batteries. > I spoke with Lifeline about the early failures and their conclusion > was that we or our customers were doing something wrong. We have > probably installed over 600 Lifeline battery systems (2S2P and larger) > over the years using practically identical power systems. I’m sure we > did not decrease the care of our installations or customer education > on proper use. I would like to know if anyone else experienced > premature Lifeline failures, especially if it is recent. > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > On Mar 17, 2021, at 3:35 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of > Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? > The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? > Thanks, > Drake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Mar 18 20:07:11 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 20:07:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: <01264727-B074-4E70-8880-971DDFE33142@gmail.com> References: <1F4828B2-EC47-4C14-9AB1-275211C56341@mavericksolar.com> <01264727-B074-4E70-8880-971DDFE33142@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a6b41e18b359ea8f4ffef5f809b3882@redwoodalliance.org> They are the same price. --- On 2021-03-18 09:35, Jay wrote: > The technical manuals are identical as well as the specs I looked at. > > Drake is there a cost difference between them? > > Jay > >> On Mar 17, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Maverick Brown >> wrote: >> >> It’s my understanding that they are exactly the same battery made in >> a line owned different family members. (More or less). >> >> I have used many of them interchangeably (not in the same system). >> >> Thank you, >> >> Maverick >> >> >>> On Mar 17, 2021, at 6:11 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of >>> Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? >>> >>> The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> -- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Mar 19 09:42:12 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 07:42:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Batteries In-Reply-To: <7a6b41e18b359ea8f4ffef5f809b3882@redwoodalliance.org> References: <7a6b41e18b359ea8f4ffef5f809b3882@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <3B8C7495-F50B-48E4-B2D7-401441A284DD@gmail.com> Hi drake It sure seems like they are the same batteries with different labels on them. Cheers Jay > On Mar 18, 2021, at 11:19 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > They are the same price. > > --- > > >> On 2021-03-18 09:35, Jay wrote: >> The technical manuals are identical as well as the specs I looked at. >> Drake is there a cost difference between them? >> Jay >>>> On Mar 17, 2021, at 9:02 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: >>> It’s my understanding that they are exactly the same battery made in a line owned different family members. (More or less). >>> I have used many of them interchangeably (not in the same system). >>> Thank you, >>> Maverick >>>> On Mar 17, 2021, at 6:11 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> Is there any reason to use Concorde Sun Xtender batteries instead of Concorde Lifeline batteries with PV systems? >>>> The Lifeline is what is available from my supplier at this time? >>>> Thanks, >>>> Drake >>>> -- >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From don at energysolarnow.com Fri Mar 19 11:41:46 2021 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:41:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded inverters for SunPower modules Message-ID: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Mar 19 11:54:40 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:54:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded inverters for SunPower modules In-Reply-To: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Don, The Sunny Boy US models are able to be configured for positive ground. I have found some of them here before for replacements: https://you-love-solar.myshopify.com/search?type=product&q=love+solar Looks like they even have an old Sunpower one on their front page. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 11:41 AM wrote: > We have several older-than-10-year installs with SunPower positively > grounded modules and inverters that have failed. The inverters were > branded by SunPower but made by various vendors like PVPowered and Xantrex > that aren't around any more. > We know if a negative grounded inverter is used with these SunPower > modules they gather some parasitic charge that inhibits normal current > flow. > I have a few used inverters with negative ground that look like they can > be modified to positive ground, with the risk there is some internal > software that cannot be adjusted. > It looks like a Fronius IG can be changed over with a software adjustment > that is actually in the manual. > What I'm wondering is whether a new ungrounded inverter can be used with > these SunPower modules and keep them operating normally. > Does anyone have some pertinent experience with this? > Thanks > Don Barch > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Mar 19 12:21:53 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:21:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: I have not been able to find a way to set my customers battery charging parameters so that the AGM batteries do not consume less of the pv output to maintain charge.  Here is an Optics view of the situation with a small image embedded. (If you can answer, please remove image per Mr. Welch's request. I have the absorb voltage at 54.3 for one hour, the float voltageat 54, the equalize at 56 (disabled for this battery type). It seems like this is a lot of energy being used by the batteries, but I am hoping that some one with more experience in these settings can weigh in on any changes I should make, or if this is just how it is.  Thank you, Chris --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ocakkhfgpkdjhmco.png Type: image/png Size: 411375 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 19 13:12:29 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:12:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: How big is the battery bank? How old is it?  It doesn't look that far off of what I've seen in GTB systems. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/19/21 12:21 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > I have not been able to find a way to set my customers battery > charging parameters so that the AGM batteries do not consume less of > the pv output to maintain charge.  Here is an Optics view of the > situation with a small image embedded. (If you can answer, please > remove image per Mr. Welch's request. > > I have the absorb voltage at 54.3 for one hour, the float voltageat > 54, the equalize at 56 (disabled for this battery type). > > It seems like this is a lot of energy being used by the batteries, but > I am hoping that some one with more experience in these settings can > weigh in on any changes I should make, or if this is just how it is.  > Thank you, Chris > > > > > > From ltuss at outbackpower.com Fri Mar 19 14:02:08 2021 From: ltuss at outbackpower.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:02:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris Thank you for taking my phone call. In looking at the optics site I see your array peeking up to 4230 watts at times. The Inverter being used is a GS4048A so it is selling up to its limits. The good news is with an oversized array your yearly harvest will be increased as you have more solar panels being able to contribute during low sunlight hours. However during peak solar events the inverter becomes the limiting factor as there is more harvest available than the inverter can sell. I hope this helps. Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 9:22 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output I have not been able to find a way to set my customers battery charging parameters so that the AGM batteries do not consume less of the pv output to maintain charge. Here is an Optics view of the situation with a small image embedded. (If you can answer, please remove image per Mr. Welch's request. I have the absorb voltage at 54.3 for one hour, the float voltageat 54, the equalize at 56 (disabled for this battery type). It seems like this is a lot of energy being used by the batteries, but I am hoping that some one with more experience in these settings can weigh in on any changes I should make, or if this is just how it is. Thank you, Chris [cid:image001.png at 01D71CAF.49238C80] -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:image002.jpg at 01D71CAF.49238C80] This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 411375 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com Fri Mar 19 14:59:51 2021 From: David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com (Isaac Opalinsky) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:59:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXT] Re: Positive grounded inverters for SunPower modules In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Don, Have you contacted SunPower Technical Support yet? If you can’t find what you need from third parties, some SMA inverter options might be available directly from SunPower. I’m assuming the original inverters are long out of warranty, but we may have a compatible SMA inverter available for sale. The disconnects and original mounting plates tend to be harder to come by, however. The most important thing to ensure expected performance is that you maintain the positively grounded configuration of the array. Galvanically isolated SMA inverters have proven to be the simplest – reconfigure the jumper and fuse position and then check the voltage and polarity of the array before you recommission. If you have any difficulty finding what you need, please feel free to contact me directly. Best Regards, Isaac Opalinsky | Director, Training & Field Enablement mobile 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com [sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 11:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [EXT] Re: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded inverters for SunPower modules External Email - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. ________________________________ Hi Don, The Sunny Boy US models are able to be configured for positive ground. I have found some of them here before for replacements: https://you-love-solar.myshopify.com/search?type=product&q=love+solar Looks like they even have an old Sunpower one on their front page. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 11:41 AM > wrote: We have several older-than-10-year installs with SunPower positively grounded modules and inverters that have failed. The inverters were branded by SunPower but made by various vendors like PVPowered and Xantrex that aren't around any more. We know if a negative grounded inverter is used with these SunPower modules they gather some parasitic charge that inhibits normal current flow. I have a few used inverters with negative ground that look like they can be modified to positive ground, with the risk there is some internal software that cannot be adjusted. It looks like a Fronius IG can be changed over with a software adjustment that is actually in the manual. What I'm wondering is whether a new ungrounded inverter can be used with these SunPower modules and keep them operating normally. Does anyone have some pertinent experience with this? Thanks Don Barch _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Tedeyan, PE [Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 5843 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Sat Mar 20 20:57:11 2021 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 17:57:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Positive grounded inverters for SunPower modules Message-ID: <20210320175711.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.bb3a3bfd2b.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 20 22:01:15 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:01:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Wrenches So what l got from the question is why when my batteries are at 100% isn't everything just passing through. Well, your batteries may be the issue, l stopped using AGM batteries because of what l called spill over, the batteries are never full and are leaking out as they are getting full. This can just be loss because of the chemical reaction and the electrons, even waist heat. AGM might have a RTE of 82% (round trip efficiency) so some battery storage energy is lost to the cosmos. Lithium ion phosphate can have a RTE of 98%, lead acid 75% Edison batterys maybe 60%. So what l am getting at is different batteries have different losses internally, AGM's are cheaper then some so you pick your efficiencies and losses, a solution may be to fatten up the array to compensate for the storage losses. I am sure someone may have an alternate solution Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 9:49 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I have not been able to find a way to set my customers battery charging > parameters so that the AGM batteries do not consume less of the pv output > to maintain charge. Here is an Optics view of the situation with a small > image embedded. (If you can answer, please remove image per Mr. Welch's > request. > > I have the absorb voltage at 54.3 for one hour, the float voltageat 54, > the equalize at 56 (disabled for this battery type). > > It seems like this is a lot of energy being used by the batteries, but I > am hoping that some one with more experience in these settings can weigh in > on any changes I should make, or if this is just how it is. Thank you, > Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ocakkhfgpkdjhmco.png Type: image/png Size: 411375 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Mar 21 11:38:20 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 08:38:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: Jerry, No doubt about it lithium battery chemistry is more efficient than lead-acid battery chemistry. That is a good reason to choose lithium batteries. However, 98% RTE is wrong. While being charged the terminal voltage for lithium iron phosphate batteries, in a 48-volt system, is typically 54.4 volts. While being discharged at light load the terminal voltage is about 51 volts; it is even lower if being discharged rapidly. The RTE efficiency cannot be greater than 51/54.4 or 94% and typically it will be even lower than that. Many battery manufacturers claim over 95% RTE but that is only possible when the battery doesn't go through a full discharge cycle. There are many sources on the internet that say 98 or 99%, but that is wrong, among us let's get it right. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 3/20/2021 7:01 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > So what l got from the question is why when my batteries are at 100% > isn't everything just passing through. Well, your batteries may be the > issue, l stopped using AGM batteries because of what l called spill > over, the batteries are never full and are leaking out as they are > getting full. This can just be loss because of the chemical reaction > and the electrons, even waist heat. AGM might have a RTE of 82% (round > trip efficiency) so some battery storage energy is lost to the cosmos. > Lithium ion phosphate can have a RTE of 98%, lead acid 75% Edison > batterys maybe 60%. So what l am getting at is different batteries > have different losses internally, AGM's are cheaper then some so you > pick your efficiencies and losses, a solution may be to fatten up the > array to compensate for the storage losses. I am sure someone may have > an alternate solution > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 9:49 AM Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > > I have not been able to find a way to set my customers battery > charging parameters so that the AGM batteries do not consume less > of the pv output to maintain charge. Here is an Optics view of the > situation with a small image embedded. (If you can answer, please > remove image per Mr. Welch's request. > > I have the absorb voltage at 54.3 for one hour, the float > voltageat 54, the equalize at 56 (disabled for this battery type). > > It seems like this is a lot of energy being used by the batteries, > but I am hoping that some one with more experience in these > settings can weigh in on any changes I should make, or if this is > just how it is.  Thank you, Chris > > > > > > -- >                         Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Mar 21 11:53:17 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 08:53:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: <> References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> Message-ID: <7e52ba8e140188250813c610c0307721@127.0.0.1> Something is wrong with your programming of the monitor! Does the battery make give you parameters to program, they should! This is not normal with what I have seen. Reading state of charge on a monitor that does not have a BMS feeding Soc to it, is for indication only. It is a moveable feast and a PITA! I do not know why Outback has chosen to not partner with battery companies and close the loop for LFP like Schneider has? Anyone know why they will not do this? Lightning/gensets, and grid power can damage electronics and even though they may still seem to be working, they are damaged. Probably best to start logging in case there is something deeper! Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:01:15 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches So what l got from the question is why when my batteries are at 100% isn't everything just passing through. Well, your batteries may be the issue, l stopped using AGM batteries because of what l called spill over, the batteries are never full and are leaking out as they are getting full. This can just be loss because of the chemical reaction and the electrons, even waist heat. AGM might have a RTE of 82% (round trip efficiency) so some battery storage energy is lost to the cosmos. Lithium ion phosphate can have a RTE of 98%, lead acid 75% Edison batterys maybe 60%. So what l am getting at is different batteries have different losses internally, AGM's are cheaper then some so you pick your efficiencies and losses, a solution may be to fatten up the array to compensate for the storage losses. I am sure someone may have an alternate solution Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Fri, Mar 19, 2021, 9:49 AM Christopher Warfel wrote: I have not been able to find a way to set my customers battery charging parameters so that the AGM batteries do not consume less of the pv output to maintain charge. Here is an Optics view of the situation with a small image embedded. (If you can answer, please remove image per Mr. Welch's request. I have the absorb voltage at 54.3 for one hour, the float voltageat 54, the equalize at 56 (disabled for this battery type). It seems like this is a lot of energy being used by the batteries, but I am hoping that some one with more experience in these settings can weigh in on any changes I should make, or if this is just how it is. Thank you, Chris -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [4] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:cwarfel at entech-engineering.com [4] http://entech-engineering.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Mar 22 00:00:05 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:00:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: <7e52ba8e140188250813c610c0307721@127.0.0.1> References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <7e52ba8e140188250813c610c0307721@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave,             I just went through a thorough installation/programming regime for an Outback FlexPower2 married to 8, SimpliPhi 3.8's.  Outback and SimpliPhi have spent a great deal of time developing setpoints for several of OB's products in a 23 detailed page integration guide. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 3/21/2021 8:53 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Something is wrong with your programming of the monitor! Does the > battery make give you parameters to program, they should! This is not > normal with what I have seen.  Reading state of charge on a monitor > that does not have a BMS feeding Soc to it, is for indication only. It > is a moveable feast and a PITA!  I do not know why Outback has chosen > to not partner with battery companies and close the loop for LFP like > Schneider has? Anyone know why they will not do this? > > Lightning/gensets, and grid power can damage electronics and even > though they may still seem to be working, they are damaged. > > Probably best to start logging in case there is something deeper!  > Good Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 22 10:41:25 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 07:41:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <7e52ba8e140188250813c610c0307721@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Bill, Unless I am mistaken the new Ampliphi 3.8 is still not closed loop with much other than Solarark. The old line of their batts, well has now been improved but not there yet until they get closed loop done! IMHO. Until Outback is capable of closed loop BMS into optics and their network I am going to stay with Schneider Discover AES and Fortress. It just is too easy and reliable to me than spend time on open loop power systems. After you try a closed loop system you ask yourself, what are setpoints? Why am I 25% faster charging with a genset. Wow true C1 charging! I respect your opinion but I was spoiled early on with closed loop. Have a good week! Bring on the rain! DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:00:05 -0700, frenergy wrote: Dave, I just went through a thorough installation/programming regime for an Outback FlexPower2 married to 8, SimpliPhi 3.8's. Outback and SimpliPhi have spent a great deal of time developing setpoints for several of OB's products in a 23 detailed page integration guide. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [3] On 3/21/2021 8:53 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Something is wrong with your programming of the monitor! Does the battery make give you parameters to program, they should! This is not normal with what I have seen. Reading state of charge on a monitor that does not have a BMS feeding Soc to it, is for indication only. It is a moveable feast and a PITA! I do not know why Outback has chosen to not partner with battery companies and close the loop for LFP like Schneider has? Anyone know why they will not do this? Lightning/gensets, and grid power can damage electronics and even though they may still seem to be working, they are damaged. Probably best to start logging in case there is something deeper! Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 [6] Virus-free. www.avast.com [7] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.frenergy.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [7] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 22 10:45:54 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 07:45:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <7e52ba8e140188250813c610c0307721@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <7ca4ac5f3bcf318aedd257c69fe07bfe@127.0.0.1> The AmpliPHI features a Battery Management System (BMS) with closed loop communications pre-configured with Sol-Ark inverters that reports SOC and other critical real-time data, optimizing the value of storage and functionality within balance-of-system equipment. Combined with our proven overcurrent protection (OCPD) and accessible 100 Amp DC breaker On/Off switch, installation time is reduced and safety is increased during set-up for residential and commercial systems, on and off-grid. Designed to scale up to 40 batteries, the AmpliPHI will offer pre-configured communications with other inverter manufacturers, to be announced soon. CHEMISTRY Lithium Ferro Phosphate (LFP) The safest Lithium Ion chemistry available No cobalt, risk of thermal runaway or fire OCPD Built-in accessible 100 Amp DC breaker On/Off switch BMS Built-in Battery Management System with Communications COMPATIBILITY Compatible with Sol-Ark, SMA (pending) ">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 07:41:25 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Bill, Unless I am mistaken the new Ampliphi 3.8 is still not closed loop with much other than Solarark. The old line of their batts, well has now been improved but not there yet until they get closed loop done! IMHO. Until Outback is capable of closed loop BMS into optics and their network I am going to stay with Schneider Discover AES and Fortress. It just is too easy and reliable to me than spend time on open loop power systems. After you try a closed loop system you ask yourself, what are setpoints? Why am I 25% faster charging with a genset. Wow true C1 charging! I respect your opinion but I was spoiled early on with closed loop. Have a good week! Bring on the rain! DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:00:05 -0700, frenergy wrote: Dave, I just went through a thorough installation/programming regime for an Outback FlexPower2 married to 8, SimpliPhi 3.8's. Outback and SimpliPhi have spent a great deal of time developing setpoints for several of OB's products in a 23 detailed page integration guide. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [5] On 3/21/2021 8:53 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Something is wrong with your programming of the monitor! Does the battery make give you parameters to program, they should! This is not normal with what I have seen. Reading state of charge on a monitor that does not have a BMS feeding Soc to it, is for indication only. It is a moveable feast and a PITA! I do not know why Outback has chosen to not partner with battery companies and close the loop for LFP like Schneider has? Anyone know why they will not do this? Lightning/gensets, and grid power can damage electronics and even though they may still seem to be working, they are damaged. Probably best to start logging in case there is something deeper! Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [7] text 209 813 0060 [8] Virus-free. www.avast.com [9] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] http://www.frenergy.net [6] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [7] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [8] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [9] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Mar 22 21:53:04 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:53:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <7e52ba8e140188250813c610c0307721@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave,             I missed your reference to OB/Simpliphi offering a "close the loop" to mean closed loop comm.  They are working on it, I'm sure its a big job. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 3/22/2021 7:41 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Bill, > > Unless I am mistaken the new Ampliphi 3.8 is still not closed loop > with much other than Solarark. The old line of their batts, well has > now been improved but not there yet until they get closed loop done! IMHO. > > Until Outback is capable of closed loop BMS into optics and their > network I am going to stay with Schneider Discover AES and Fortress. > It just is too easy and reliable to me than spend time on open loop > power systems. After you try a closed loop system you ask yourself, > what are setpoints? Why am I 25% faster charging with a genset. Wow > true C1 charging! > > I respect your opinion but I was spoiled early on with closed loop. > Have a good week! Bring on the rain! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:00:05 -0700, frenergy wrote: > >> Dave, >> >>             I just went through a thorough installation/programming >> regime for an Outback FlexPower2 married to 8, SimpliPhi 3.8's.  >> Outback and SimpliPhi have spent a great deal of time developing >> setpoints for several of OB's products in a 23 detailed page >> integration guide. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> On 3/21/2021 8:53 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> >>> Something is wrong with your programming of the monitor! Does the >>> battery make give you parameters to program, they should! This is >>> not normal with what I have seen.  Reading state of charge on a >>> monitor that does not have a BMS feeding Soc to it, is for >>> indication only. It is a moveable feast and a PITA!  I do not know >>> why Outback has chosen to not partner with battery companies and >>> close the loop for LFP like Schneider has? Anyone know why they will >>> not do this? >>> >>> Lightning/gensets, and grid power can damage electronics and even >>> though they may still seem to be working, they are damaged. >>> >>> Probably best to start logging in case there is something deeper!  >>> Good Luck! >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Mar 23 10:33:13 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 07:33:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback settings adjustment so batteries consume less of PV output In-Reply-To: References: <20210319084146.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.496fbe9e4f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> <7e52ba8e140188250813c610c0307721@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <39968354f9eeb20d23e65284f6c58385@127.0.0.1> Bill, Jay told me he is going to find out why Outback has not been moving forward with this. It is up to Outback to supply a Modbus or Canbus entry into the Outback network. They also have to supply some of their language to a battery company for implementation. I do not know Outback networking like I know Schneider. I am not a programmer. I have Outback clients also and have been slowly moving them to Schneider to allow a much easier life for them and myself when it is battery time. After I do the switch, I get all smiles from them. It is not that hard for some of my clients to make a closed loop system work. No Shunts, Bat Mon, or hard wiring. In some cases all they do is enter the time/date. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 22 Mar 2021 18:53:04 -0700, frenergy wrote: Dave, I missed your reference to OB/Simpliphi offering a "close the loop" to mean closed loop comm. They are working on it, I'm sure its a big job. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [3] On 3/22/2021 7:41 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Bill, Unless I am mistaken the new Ampliphi 3.8 is still not closed loop with much other than Solarark. The old line of their batts, well has now been improved but not there yet until they get closed loop done! IMHO. Until Outback is capable of closed loop BMS into optics and their network I am going to stay with Schneider Discover AES and Fortress. It just is too easy and reliable to me than spend time on open loop power systems. After you try a closed loop system you ask yourself, what are setpoints? Why am I 25% faster charging with a genset. Wow true C1 charging! I respect your opinion but I was spoiled early on with closed loop. Have a good week! Bring on the rain! DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:00:05 -0700, frenergy [6] wrote: Dave, I just went through a thorough installation/programming regime for an Outback FlexPower2 married to 8, SimpliPhi 3.8's. Outback and SimpliPhi have spent a great deal of time developing setpoints for several of OB's products in a 23 detailed page integration guide. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [7] On 3/21/2021 8:53 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Something is wrong with your programming of the monitor! Does the battery make give you parameters to program, they should! This is not normal with what I have seen. Reading state of charge on a monitor that does not have a BMS feeding Soc to it, is for indication only. It is a moveable feast and a PITA! I do not know why Outback has chosen to not partner with battery companies and close the loop for LFP like Schneider has? Anyone know why they will not do this? Lightning/gensets, and grid power can damage electronics and even though they may still seem to be working, they are damaged. Probably best to start logging in case there is something deeper! Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [8] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [9] text 209 813 0060 [10] Virus-free. www.avast.com [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] -- Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.frenergy.net [4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [5] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [6] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [7] http://www.frenergy.net [8] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [10] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [11] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Mar 24 13:48:41 2021 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:48:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream Message-ID: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> Hey Wrenches,       Here to get some advice on mounting options for some Renogy flexible panels on an airstream. I usually say no to any rvs but they are friends of the owner so it's in my lap now. The panels have 6 eyelets on them for mounting so I was thinking of using some sikaflex adhesive for the pack of the panels and then some blind rivets for the eyelets with small piece of butyl between the the bottom of the eyelet and the roof of the airstream to seal the holes. Anyone done these before or have any advise? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Mar 24 14:54:24 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:54:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream In-Reply-To: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> References: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <005801d720df$1c817140$558453c0$@solarwork.com> I have done 2 RVs with these & Used Urethane roof flashing adhesive to attach, very Liberally! Rave reviews from the owner since. Good Product! 2 Thumbs up Just got turned on to: Geocell 4500 adhesive can be applied & cures even under water. Found it online. Excellent product even sticks to EDPM. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Andrew Perkins Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 11:49 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream Hey Wrenches, Here to get some advice on mounting options for some Renogy flexible panels on an airstream. I usually say no to any rvs but they are friends of the owner so it's in my lap now. The panels have 6 eyelets on them for mounting so I was thinking of using some sikaflex adhesive for the pack of the panels and then some blind rivets for the eyelets with small piece of butyl between the the bottom of the eyelet and the roof of the airstream to seal the holes. Anyone done these before or have any advise? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Mar 24 15:25:41 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:25:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream In-Reply-To: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> References: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> Message-ID: We have always used Dicor 501LSW and screws for flexible modules. Apply a few ounces to back of module and around the screw holes if using screws, place the module on roof, roll in with a roller to spread the sealant some. If it oozes out the edges it will self level. Apply 501 over screw tops (photo is example of 501LSW covering 5 lag bolts and mounting foot) Great stuff. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 24, 2021, at 10:48 AM, Andrew Perkins wrote: Hey Wrenches, Here to get some advice on mounting options for some Renogy flexible panels on an airstream. I usually say no to any rvs but they are friends of the owner so it's in my lap now. The panels have 6 eyelets on them for mounting so I was thinking of using some sikaflex adhesive for the pack of the panels and then some blind rivets for the eyelets with small piece of butyl between the the bottom of the eyelet and the roof of the airstream to seal the holes. Anyone done these before or have any advise? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dicor sealant.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14043 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 24 15:28:25 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:28:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream In-Reply-To: <005801d720df$1c817140$558453c0$@solarwork.com> References: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> <005801d720df$1c817140$558453c0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Butyl tape is great when sandwiched between a metal roof and another material. Chemlink m1 also sticks underwater. Geocel 4500 is great, but it lacks some ASTM certifications required for use on roofing, so we don't use it anymore. I expect it would work well in this application, however. You might call the guys at nuCamp. I just purchased one of their trailers and they have a flexible solar panel stuck to the roof that appears to be very solidly adhered with no mechanical fasteners. On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 2:54 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > I have done 2 RVs with these & Used Urethane roof flashing adhesive to > attach, very Liberally! Rave reviews from the owner since. Good Product! > > 2 Thumbs up > > > > Just got turned on to: Geocell 4500 adhesive can be applied & cures even > under water. Found it online. Excellent product even sticks to EDPM. > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Andrew Perkins > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 24, 2021 11:49 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream > > > > Hey Wrenches, > > Here to get some advice on mounting options for some Renogy > flexible panels on an airstream. I usually say no to any rvs but they are > friends of the owner so it's in my lap now. The panels have 6 eyelets on > them for mounting so I was thinking of using some sikaflex adhesive for the > pack of the panels and then some blind rivets for the eyelets with small > piece of butyl between the the bottom of the eyelet and the roof of the > airstream to seal the holes. Anyone done these before or have any advise? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 11:33:21 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 08:33:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream In-Reply-To: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> References: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Sorry but I would still decline this as if you glue anything to na airstream it will be there forever, I have designed ground mount tilt ups that are portable with a long cord to plug in to the coach. Jerry On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:18 PM Andrew Perkins wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > Here to get some advice on mounting options for some Renogy > flexible panels on an airstream. I usually say no to any rvs but they are > friends of the owner so it's in my lap now. The panels have 6 eyelets on > them for mounting so I was thinking of using some sikaflex adhesive for the > pack of the panels and then some blind rivets for the eyelets with small > piece of butyl between the the bottom of the eyelet and the roof of the > airstream to seal the holes. Anyone done these before or have any advise? > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Mar 26 15:39:28 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:39:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deep well pumping In-Reply-To: References: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> Message-ID: Hey Folks,             Why am I having such a difficult time finding a Grundfos distributor that can help me with a pump design for a new well?  Their website seems clunky for getting info  Static at 25 feet, drilled to 340 feet to hit 30+ GPM.  We would like to have 25 GPM at 40 psi, pump set at 300 ft, dynamic water level is 175 feet.  Does Grundfos have a pump for this application? Thanks Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 13:54:15 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 11:54:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2-5kw wind machines Message-ID: <4084C6ED-9A17-429D-BC15-9FE928D8E914@gmail.com> HI All, Any advice or recommendations for battery based 2-5kw wind machines? thanks jay peltz power From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Mar 25 07:22:54 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 07:22:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 54-Cell Solar Modules Message-ID: I'm looking for two 54-cell modules, highest power possible, for a mobile solar project requiring modules under 61 inches long. If you know where I can get these, please let me know off-list. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 24 17:35:15 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:35:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces Message-ID: I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing requirements)? Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Desing Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From KPegg at energyalternatives.ca Fri Mar 26 15:41:33 2021 From: KPegg at energyalternatives.ca (Kevin Pegg) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 19:41:33 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deep well pumping In-Reply-To: References: <178655a53f2.106dcb715274784.6721186160552611794@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <6fe277d8b17e4079966f8735e81f57c1@MAIL.energyalternatives.ca> I use some older software from Grundfos called WinCAPS v 7.8 for pump sizing. It works well. I am only focused on the SQFlex systems, so have not used the other modules but believe it will do the calculations you wish. You may be able to find that software online to download. If not, I could try and locate the original installation CD or run the sizing for you. Kevin Pegg EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 37471 Hwy 16 E Telkwa, BC V0J 2X2 250-846-9888 Http://www.EnergyAlternatives.ca -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: March-26-21 12:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deep well pumping Hey Folks,             Why am I having such a difficult time finding a Grundfos distributor that can help me with a pump design for a new well?  Their website seems clunky for getting info  Static at 25 feet, drilled to 340 feet to hit 30+ GPM.  We would like to have 25 GPM at 40 psi, pump set at 300 ft, dynamic water level is 175 feet.  Does Grundfos have a pump for this application? Thanks Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From dana at solarwork.com Fri Mar 26 17:32:48 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:32:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting a old Troybuilt Roto tiller Message-ID: <003101d72287$92a671f0$b7f355d0$@solarwork.com> Hey All wise ones, I have an old B&S gas powered Troy Built Roto tiller that the safety switches are years past available. I would like to convert this monster to electric drive. Any suggestions or anyone know of someone who has done this? I hate to reinvent the wheel if someone has this idea dialed in or a kit? I just want to get it done. Thanks in advance & if this is an off the topic thing please reply off the list. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Mar 26 18:21:14 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:21:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting a old Troybuilt Roto tiller In-Reply-To: <003101d72287$92a671f0$b7f355d0$@solarwork.com> References: <003101d72287$92a671f0$b7f355d0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I recall seeing something like that in an old Home Power magazine article.  I've done a few odd ball conversions, and that seems like a good one to play with.  Its not a "daily driver", not going long distances or long hours, weight isn't a huge issue, and so lead acid batteries might not be out of the question.  Constant speed too, so you might not need a super PWM controller.  I'd consider something in the 12 to 24 v range, and just go old school with a heavy duty knife switch or over sized relay.  If you start it with the tines in the air, it shouldn't have a big starting surge. Or you could go 21st century, with 48v, Li+ PWM controller, etc....  Another option to consider is using existing Li+ battery packs, like Ryobi's 40 v lawn mower packs..... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/26/21 5:32 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > Hey All wise ones, > > I have an old B&S gas powered Troy Built Roto tiller that the safety > switches are years past available. I would like to convert this > monster to electric drive. > > Any suggestions or anyone know of someone who has done this? > > I hate to reinvent the wheel if someone has this idea dialed in or a > kit? I just want to get it done. > > Thanks in advance & if this is an off the topic thing please reply  > off the list. > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c2 at catamountsolar.com Fri Mar 26 19:08:18 2021 From: c2 at catamountsolar.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 19:08:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, There is a 250A breaker located inside a compartment on the top of the unit. Keeping that reasonably accessible would be important. Also, just out of curiosity, how are you planning of getting these battery cabinets onto their 4’ platform? Forklift? Ramp? On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:40 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due > to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 > inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of > the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall > under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not > likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, > say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing > requirements)? > > Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the > practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Chris Sparadeo* *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional **® **# 042919-015652* *NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector **®** # 052920-015652 * Catamount Solar, LLC 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 C_(802) 369-4458 O_(802) 728-3600 www.CatamountSolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Mar 26 20:08:38 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 17:08:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60cb66bbf6119367ddf6fddbfbb6f676@127.0.0.1> Earthquake safety requirements in CA. Probably not an issue in Florida. Ask your building department! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 19:08:18 -0400, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Hi Jason, There is a 250A breaker located inside a compartment on the top of the unit. Keeping that reasonably accessible would be important. Also, just out of curiosity, how are you planning of getting these battery cabinets onto their 4' platform? Forklift? Ramp? On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:40 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing requirements)? Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Desing Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] List rules ">_Chris Sparadeo_ _NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLATION PROFESSIONAL __(R) __# 042919-015652_ _NABCEP CERTIFIED PV SYSTEM INSPECTOR __(R)__ # 052920-015652 _ Catamount Solar, LLC 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 C_(802) 369-4458 O_(802) 728-3600 www.CatamountSolar.com [10] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [4] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.catamountsolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Mar 26 23:18:34 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 20:18:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can you add a catwalk with handrails in front of it for maintenance?Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: Jason Szumlanski Date: 3/26/21 12:41 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing requirements)? Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade?Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Desing Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Mar 27 06:36:44 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 06:36:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's problematic I think. I guess the next question would be, if I need to keep this breaker at 6'7", I don't see that being accessible be someone standing in front of it anyway without a portable ladder, so what height IS acceptable? Also, maybe I don't need to mount the whole battery above the flood level. Maybe just exposed live parts need to be that high. If that's the case, would that just be the tops? Jason On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 7:13 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Jason, > > There is a 250A breaker located inside a compartment on the top of the > unit. Keeping that reasonably accessible would be important. > > Also, just out of curiosity, how are you planning of getting these battery > cabinets onto their 4’ platform? Forklift? Ramp? > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:40 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due >> to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 >> inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of >> the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall >> under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not >> likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, >> say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing >> requirements)? >> >> Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the >> practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Desing Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > > *Chris Sparadeo* > > *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional **® **# 042919-015652* > > *NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector **®** # 052920-015652 * > > Catamount Solar, LLC > > 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 > > C_(802) 369-4458 > > O_(802) 728-3600 > > www.CatamountSolar.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Mar 27 06:32:15 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 06:32:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces In-Reply-To: <20210327070130.825B110A7B2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <20210327070130.825B110A7B2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: Not an option. Limited garage space. On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 3:01 AM Chris Worcester wrote: > Can you add a catwalk with handrails in front of it for maintenance? > > > > Chris Worcester > chris at solarwindworks.com > 530-448-9692 > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jason Szumlanski > Date: 3/26/21 12:41 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces > > I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due > to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 > inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of > the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall > under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not > likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, > say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing > requirements)? > > Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the > practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Desing Group > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 11:40:49 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 11:40:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces In-Reply-To: References: <20210327070130.825B110A7B2@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: I have been inside the eVault cabinet and there are exposed terminals starting about 1/3 of the way up the unit. Not a very water resistant enclosure, with a loose fitting cowling. The 250A breaker is only accessible by taking out 6 screws and removing the top compartment cover. Good news is their tech support is excellent. Perhaps they have a better idea of where “live parts” begin. techsupport at fortresspower.com On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 11:12 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Not an option. Limited garage space. > > On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 3:01 AM Chris Worcester > wrote: > >> Can you add a catwalk with handrails in front of it for maintenance? >> >> >> >> Chris Worcester >> chris at solarwindworks.com >> 530-448-9692 >> >> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Jason Szumlanski >> Date: 3/26/21 12:41 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces >> >> I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due >> to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 >> inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of >> the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall >> under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not >> likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, >> say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing >> requirements)? >> >> Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the >> practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade? >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Desing Group >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Mar 27 11:30:26 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:30:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would ask Fortress about the heights! If this was offgrid and not inspected, I would have signage indicating there is a battery breaker/disco above this sign. If that breaker is tripped, I would think other things may be wrong and only qualified people should re-energize the breaker. That may need to be on the sign. If this is salt water, blowing water may have already done permanent damage. The higher you go up to the ceiling, the harder it will be to keep the battery from getting too hot, especially in a garage. This is logged for battery warranty! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 06:36:44 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: That's problematic I think. I guess the next question would be, if I need to keep this breaker at 6'7", I don't see that being accessible be someone standing in front of it anyway without a portable ladder, so what height IS acceptable? Also, maybe I don't need to mount the whole battery above the flood level. Maybe just exposed live parts need to be that high. If that's the case, would that just be the tops? Jason On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 7:13 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: Hi Jason, There is a 250A breaker located inside a compartment on the top of the unit. Keeping that reasonably accessible would be important. Also, just out of curiosity, how are you planning of getting these battery cabinets onto their 4' platform? Forklift? Ramp? On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:40 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing requirements)? Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Desing Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules ">_Chris Sparadeo_ _NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLATION PROFESSIONAL __(R) __# 042919-015652_ _NABCEP CERTIFIED PV SYSTEM INSPECTOR __(R)__ # 052920-015652 _ Catamount Solar, LLC 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060 C_(802) 369-4458 O_(802) 728-3600 www.CatamountSolar.com [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:c2 at catamountsolar.com [4] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.catamountsolar.com/ [12] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wstahle at pacific.net Sat Mar 27 12:08:06 2021 From: wstahle at pacific.net (Wallace Stahl) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 09:08:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Converting a old Troybuilt Roto tiller In-Reply-To: <003101d72287$92a671f0$b7f355d0$@solarwork.com> References: <003101d72287$92a671f0$b7f355d0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <2B1A4B54-98C0-4C3C-B914-AB58C79306B7@pacific.net> Dana, You might get some good input from Steve Heckeroth at https://solectrac.com/. as he has been doing electric conversions for years and settled on bigger tractors these days and I believe rototillers in the past. A frequent contributor to Mother Earth News also over the years. Wallace Stahle Future Electric Energy Co PO Box 236 Willits, CA 95490 707-459-0474 Lic.#C10-762093 future at pacific.net > On Mar 26, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > Hey All wise ones, > > I have an old B&S gas powered Troy Built Roto tiller that the safety switches are years past available. I would like to convert this monster to electric drive. > Any suggestions or anyone know of someone who has done this? > > I hate to reinvent the wheel if someone has this idea dialed in or a kit? I just want to get it done. > > Thanks in advance & if this is an off the topic thing please reply off the list. > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Mar 27 12:02:11 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 12:02:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces Message-ID: Can you lay them on their sides?-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Jason SzumlanskiDate: Sat, Mar 27, 2021 11:12 AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working SpacesThat's problematic I think. I guess the next question would be, if I need to keep this breaker at 6'7", I don't see that being accessible be someone standing in front of it anyway without a portable ladder, so what height IS acceptable?Also, maybe I don't need to mount the whole battery above the flood level. Maybe just exposed live parts need to be that high. If that's the case, would that just be the tops?JasonOn Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 7:13 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote:Hi Jason,There is a 250A breaker located inside a compartment on the top of the unit. Keeping that reasonably accessible would be important. Also, just out of curiosity, how are you planning of getting these battery cabinets onto their 4’ platform? Forklift? Ramp? On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:40 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote:I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing requirements)? Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade?Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Desing Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris SparadeoNABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ® # 042919-015652NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector ® # 052920-015652 Catamount Solar, LLC4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060C_(802) 369-4458O_(802) 728-3600www.CatamountSolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Sat Mar 27 12:30:10 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 09:30:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have seen a fold up rolling scaffold assembly that would make a maintenance platform solution for you. They're about 3'×6'×6' tall +/- fold up when not in use, sell it as  part of the system. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: Jason Szumlanski Date: 3/27/21 8:12 AM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces Not an option.  Limited garage space. On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 3:01 AM Chris Worcester wrote:Can you add a catwalk with handrails in front of it for maintenance?Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9.-------- Original message --------From: Jason Szumlanski Date: 3/26/21 12:41 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48 inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher, say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing requirements)? Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade?Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Desing Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Sat Mar 27 21:11:00 2021 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 01:11:00 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch Message-ID: Wrenches and Lones, We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR series on many systems. We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue. The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly and time consuming for us. Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated. All these systems have been assembled by Outback. None of them have OpticsRE. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 22:09:03 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:09:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Just a thought on the mismatch, I have found that i have less issues with my own shielded cat 5 cable instead of the green outback cables, easy enough to make and if you make them they can be routed away from AC fields that may increase the potential Jerry On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 6:11 PM Wayne Irwin wrote: > Wrenches and Lones, > > We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO > FXR series on many systems. > We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures > continue. > > The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error > and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its > own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the > "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like > magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. > > This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as > costly and time consuming for us. > > *Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated.* > > All these systems have been assembled by Outback. > None of them have OpticsRE. > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 10:46:11 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 07:46:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have seen this issue repeatedly as well with FXR stacked inverters. Changing cables, scrubbing the firmware etc will buy time but never fully fixes the issues. It will crop up again at some future date. My general sense is that errors accumulate over time and make these systems unstable. I too would like a permanent solution. Thanks On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 7:09 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Just a thought on the mismatch, I have found that i have less issues with > my own shielded cat 5 cable instead of the green outback cables, easy > enough to make and if you make them they can be routed away from AC fields > that may increase the potential > Jerry > > On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 6:11 PM Wayne Irwin > wrote: > >> Wrenches and Lones, >> >> We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO >> FXR series on many systems. >> We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures >> continue. >> >> The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error >> and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its >> own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the >> "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like >> magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. >> >> This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as >> costly and time consuming for us. >> >> *Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated.* >> >> All these systems have been assembled by Outback. >> None of them have OpticsRE. >> >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com >> SolarChargingStation.com >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> 352 316-1637 Cell >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are >> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use >> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail >> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Sun Mar 28 12:04:36 2021 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 06:04:36 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> Aloha Wayne, We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely frustrating for us and our clients. The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes long delays between the faults we can't be certain. Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long time. But it's worth a check. > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. > Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com > On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > >  > Wrenches and Lones, > > We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR series on many systems. > We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue. > > The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. > > This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly and time consuming for us. > > Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated. > > All these systems have been assembled by Outback. > None of them have OpticsRE. > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Sun Mar 28 14:57:26 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 11:57:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVZH202 Message-ID: <5c00f2e6-09fc-bb61-3859-d678cf269c12@coveoregon.com> Wrenches, Does anyone have a supply of Zhonghuan PVZH202 connectors? These are being used on the Mission Solar MSE60A310 modules. I can't find any except in multiples of 1000 from Zhonghuan. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 16:06:39 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 14:06:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PVZH202 In-Reply-To: <5c00f2e6-09fc-bb61-3859-d678cf269c12@coveoregon.com> References: <5c00f2e6-09fc-bb61-3859-d678cf269c12@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Hi Kent Talk to Bryan at PV cables 707-923-3000 Jay > On Mar 28, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > > Wrenches, > > Does anyone have a supply of Zhonghuan PVZH202 connectors? These are being used on the Mission Solar MSE60A310 modules. I can't find any except in multiples of 1000 from Zhonghuan. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com Mon Mar 29 10:41:22 2021 From: maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com (Kienan Maxfield) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 14:41:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> References: , <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: I have had this problem, on the job site I had, it was caused by a Wi-Fi router to close to the equipment. I moved all the Wi-Fi equipment away, and all of my issues were resolved. The Wi-Fi access point that I used to connect the Mate to Optics also caused problems. I tried replacing all of the cables with shielded cables, and routing them away from AC lines, and it did not help. I had to move the Wi-Fi equipment. Thanks, Kienan ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Roland - RES Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2021 10:04:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch Aloha Wayne, We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely frustrating for us and our clients. The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes long delays between the faults we can't be certain. Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long time. But it's worth a check. Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote:  Wrenches and Lones, We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR series on many systems. We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue. The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly and time consuming for us. Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated. All these systems have been assembled by Outback. None of them have OpticsRE. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 10:02:36 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 08:02:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> References: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: <1A6453FE-E817-4BA4-BCC3-B7F2A721E4C6@gmail.com> Does the 1.4.6 firmware also fix the mate 3S shutdown issue? One system I’ve got has the mate just blank except for a few minor displays. But no buttons work etc. Unplug and replug and it’s all back to normal. Thanks Jay > On Mar 29, 2021, at 3:43 AM, Roland - RES wrote: > > Aloha Wayne, > > We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely frustrating for us and our clients. > > The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes long delays between the faults we can't be certain. > > Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. > > Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long time. But it's worth a check. > >> Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. >> > Roland Shackelford > NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER > President > Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. > Mobile: 808-938-9239 > www.renewablenergy.com > >>> On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: >>> >>  >> Wrenches and Lones, >> >> We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR series on many systems. >> We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue. >> >> The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. >> >> This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly and time consuming for us. >> >> Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated. >> >> All these systems have been assembled by Outback. >> None of them have OpticsRE. >> >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com >> SolarChargingStation.com >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> 352 316-1637 Cell >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Mon Mar 29 09:10:24 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 09:10:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> References: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org> It seems that battery based inverters are not nearly as reliable as they once were. I understand that the Samlex inverters are pretty bulletproof. They are coming out with a 120/240V split phase to work with a 48V battery bank. I don't know that these are grid interactive, or if they can be stacked. We need a manufacturer to produce something equivalent to the FX series inverters, or the earlier Radians. What is the best choice for a grid interactive, battery based inverter? I tend to lean toward Schneider. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-03-28 12:04, Roland - RES wrote: > Aloha Wayne, > > We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely frustrating for us and our clients. > > The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes long delays between the faults we can't be certain. > > Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. > > Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long time. But it's worth a check. > >> Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. > >> > Roland Shackelford > > NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER > President > > Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. > Mobile: 808-938-9239 [3] > www.renewablenergy.com [4] > >> On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > >> Wrenches and Lones, >> >> We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR series on many systems. >> We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue. >> >> The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. >> >> This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly and time consuming for us. >> >> Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated. >> >> All these systems have been assembled by Outback. >> None of them have OpticsRE. >> >> Wayne Irwin >> President >> License #CVC56695 >> State Licensed Solar Contractor >> Pure Energy Solar International Inc. >> Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com >> PureEnergySolar.com [1] >> SolarChargingStation.com [2] >> 352 377-6527 Office >> 352 336-3299 Fax >> 352 316-1637 Cell >> >> The Sun Is Always Shining! >> >> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://pureenergysolar.com/ [2] http://solarchargingstation.com/ [3] http://808-938-9239/ [4] http://www.renewablenergy.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Mar 29 11:50:23 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 08:50:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Outback=5FInverter_firmware_mismatch?= In-Reply-To: <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org> References: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: The XW does not have the stacking cables and is a single 6.8kw inverter. People have trouble with their CSW 4KW. It is too small for split phase. I tend to think that XW is the most reliable way to go. Less is more! Agree Drake! I have so many that just have the defaults running offgrid. Not even the SCP. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 09:10:24 -0400, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: It seems that battery based inverters are not nearly as reliable as they once were. I understand that the Samlex inverters are pretty bulletproof. They are coming out with a 120/240V split phase to work with a 48V battery bank. I don't know that these are grid interactive, or if they can be stacked. We need a manufacturer to produce something equivalent to the FX series inverters, or the earlier Radians. What is the best choice for a grid interactive, battery based inverter? I tend to lean toward Schneider. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-03-28 12:04, Roland - RES wrote: Aloha Wayne, We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely frustrating for us and our clients. The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes long delays between the faults we can't be certain. Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long time. But it's worth a check. Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 [3] www.renewablenergy.com [4] On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: Wrenches and Lones, We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR series on many systems. We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue. The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly and time consuming for us. ANY GUIDANCE IN RESOLVING THIS ISSUE WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. All these systems have been assembled by Outback. None of them have OpticsRE. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com [5] SolarChargingStation.com [6] 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules padding: 0; font-family: monospace;">_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://808-938-9239/ [4] http://www.renewablenergy.com/ [5] http://pureenergysolar.com/ [6] http://solarchargingstation.com/ [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 11:54:36 2021 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 08:54:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org> References: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hello fellow wrenches! We have had this issue with a couple of systems and it drove us crazy. This was for two systems that had been programmed to run in mini grid mode. After replacing all communication wires with shielded cable, replacing the mate, replacing hub, replacing guts from both inverters we still had the problem. What finally solved it was changing it to HBX mode. Havn't had the issue since. What mode are the inverters/mate programmed to operate in. Also, of course making sure all firmwares are most current on all updatable devices. Keep us posted if you find the culprit. Hope that helps! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 8:31 AM wrote: > It seems that battery based inverters are not nearly as reliable as they > once were. I understand that the Samlex inverters are pretty bulletproof. > They are coming out with a 120/240V split phase to work with a 48V battery > bank. I don't know that these are grid interactive, or if they can be > stacked. > > We need a manufacturer to produce something equivalent to the FX series > inverters, or the earlier Radians. > > What is the best choice for a grid interactive, battery based inverter? I > tend to lean toward Schneider. > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > --- > > > > On 2021-03-28 12:04, Roland - RES wrote: > > Aloha Wayne, > > We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely > frustrating for us and our clients. > > The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated > our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes > long delays between the faults we can't be certain. > > Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. > > Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the > wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus > series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long > time. But it's worth a check. > > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse > shortcuts and typos. > > > > Roland Shackelford > NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER > President > Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. > Mobile: *808-938-9239 * > www.renewablenergy.com > > On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin > wrote: > > Wrenches and Lones, > > We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO > FXR series on many systems. > We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures > continue. > > The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error > and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its > own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the > "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like > magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. > > This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as > costly and time consuming for us. > > *Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated.* > > All these systems have been assembled by Outback. > None of them have OpticsRE. > > > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Mon Mar 29 12:18:17 2021 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 16:18:17 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org>, Message-ID: All our systems except for 2 are GT. We've also swapped cables, mates, hubs etc...to no avail. On the other hand, the systems that we installed decades ago with GVFX3648's are still operating without a glitch. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kirpal Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 11:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch Hello fellow wrenches! We have had this issue with a couple of systems and it drove us crazy. This was for two systems that had been programmed to run in mini grid mode. After replacing all communication wires with shielded cable, replacing the mate, replacing hub, replacing guts from both inverters we still had the problem. What finally solved it was changing it to HBX mode. Havn't had the issue since. What mode are the inverters/mate programmed to operate in. Also, of course making sure all firmwares are most current on all updatable devices. Keep us posted if you find the culprit. Hope that helps! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 8:31 AM > wrote: It seems that battery based inverters are not nearly as reliable as they once were. I understand that the Samlex inverters are pretty bulletproof. They are coming out with a 120/240V split phase to work with a 48V battery bank. I don't know that these are grid interactive, or if they can be stacked. We need a manufacturer to produce something equivalent to the FX series inverters, or the earlier Radians. What is the best choice for a grid interactive, battery based inverter? I tend to lean toward Schneider. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-03-28 12:04, Roland - RES wrote: Aloha Wayne, We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely frustrating for us and our clients. The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes long delays between the faults we can't be certain. Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long time. But it's worth a check. Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin > wrote: Wrenches and Lones, We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR series on many systems. We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue. The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly and time consuming for us. Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated. All these systems have been assembled by Outback. None of them have OpticsRE. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 13:55:56 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 13:55:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org> References: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, My 2 cents: After getting over my many years boycott of Schneider due to the legacy of Xantrex, I finally tried the new XW several years ago, and haven't really looked back since. They certainly have had their hiccups, and there is a fair amount of complexity to the programming depending on what you are trying to do, but they are solid both electrically and programmatically from my experience. I also have so far enjoyed using Sol-Ark from my limited experience, although I have yet to use it in an off-grid environment. Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 11:31 AM wrote: > It seems that battery based inverters are not nearly as reliable as they > once were. I understand that the Samlex inverters are pretty bulletproof. > They are coming out with a 120/240V split phase to work with a 48V battery > bank. I don't know that these are grid interactive, or if they can be > stacked. > > We need a manufacturer to produce something equivalent to the FX series > inverters, or the earlier Radians. > > What is the best choice for a grid interactive, battery based inverter? I > tend to lean toward Schneider. > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > --- > > > > On 2021-03-28 12:04, Roland - RES wrote: > > Aloha Wayne, > > We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely > frustrating for us and our clients. > > The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated > our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes > long delays between the faults we can't be certain. > > Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. > > Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the > wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus > series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long > time. But it's worth a check. > > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse > shortcuts and typos. > > > > Roland Shackelford > NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER > President > Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. > Mobile: *808-938-9239 * > www.renewablenergy.com > > On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin > wrote: > > Wrenches and Lones, > > We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO > FXR series on many systems. > We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures > continue. > > The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error > and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its > own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the > "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like > magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. > > This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as > costly and time consuming for us. > > *Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated.* > > All these systems have been assembled by Outback. > None of them have OpticsRE. > > > > > Wayne Irwin > President > License #CVC56695 > State Licensed Solar Contractor > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com > PureEnergySolar.com > SolarChargingStation.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > > The Sun Is Always Shining! > > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are > not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use > or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail > and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Mar 29 19:01:18 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 19:01:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI 15 issue Message-ID: Folks I have been asked to review a issue w/ this inverter. Solectria PVI 15 DMGI245 S/N 070924-14, 3 ph 480V inverter, 70 Solon Blue 230 Watt modules. Issue is; the inverter shuts off due towhees 2 messages; “Contactor Fail" or "AC Contact Open”. Happens more frequently during cloudy weather, but it apparently its faulting more frequently. After reset once the inverter restarts you can hear the contactor pull in and then it faults, contactor has been replaced multiple times. I have not been on site yet. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Tump > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********ctria > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pureenergysolar at hotmail.com Mon Mar 29 19:18:54 2021 From: pureenergysolar at hotmail.com (Wayne Irwin) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 23:18:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch In-Reply-To: References: <867E39F7-6E5D-48E3-AEBE-40D004E3367E@renewablenergy.com> <2c9588c09b6216d25ad5315e56a15f52@redwoodalliance.org>, Message-ID: I've been in contact with OB engineering. I'm told that OB is diligently working on this issue, and that the latest (Mate only) firmware update 1.4.6. is a specific fix to address only the firmware mismatch issue and nothing else. It only works for (if it works) the Mate 3s. If this works, they will try something similar for the Mate 3. So, in the meantime keep on unplugging and replugging. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kirpal Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 11:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback_Inverter firmware mismatch Hello fellow wrenches! We have had this issue with a couple of systems and it drove us crazy. This was for two systems that had been programmed to run in mini grid mode. After replacing all communication wires with shielded cable, replacing the mate, replacing hub, replacing guts from both inverters we still had the problem. What finally solved it was changing it to HBX mode. Havn't had the issue since. What mode are the inverters/mate programmed to operate in. Also, of course making sure all firmwares are most current on all updatable devices. Keep us posted if you find the culprit. Hope that helps! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 8:31 AM > wrote: It seems that battery based inverters are not nearly as reliable as they once were. I understand that the Samlex inverters are pretty bulletproof. They are coming out with a 120/240V split phase to work with a 48V battery bank. I don't know that these are grid interactive, or if they can be stacked. We need a manufacturer to produce something equivalent to the FX series inverters, or the earlier Radians. What is the best choice for a grid interactive, battery based inverter? I tend to lean toward Schneider. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-03-28 12:04, Roland - RES wrote: Aloha Wayne, We too have been plagued by this issue, that has been extremely frustrating for us and our clients. The newest 1.4.6 firmware is supposed to fix this issue. We have updated our systems with this and so far so good. However because of the sometimes long delays between the faults we can't be certain. Prior to this most common fix was replacing the mate. Also on FP2 we had a couple factory units have the hub jumpers set for the wrong stacking. I believe they were set for parallel operations versus series. Strange it would work fine with the jumpers either way for a long time. But it's worth a check. Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com On Mar 27, 2021, at 3:11 PM, Wayne Irwin > wrote: Wrenches and Lones, We have had chronic inverter firmware mismatch issues with FLEXpower TWO FXR series on many systems. We've updated the firmware and replaced mates, yet the system failures continue. The systems will work flawlessly for months and then randomly show error and the firmware mismatch. Occasionally the system will discover (on its own) that the firmware is the same and turn back on. But usually, the "solution" is to unplug the mate and plug it back in and like magic...everything works again anywhere from 3 months to a year. This is disappointing and frustrating to the system owners as well as costly and time consuming for us. Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated. All these systems have been assembled by Outback. None of them have OpticsRE. Wayne Irwin President License #CVC56695 State Licensed Solar Contractor Pure Energy Solar International Inc. Wayne at PureEnergySolar.com PureEnergySolar.com SolarChargingStation.com 352 377-6527 Office 352 336-3299 Fax 352 316-1637 Cell The Sun Is Always Shining! The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 16:08:34 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:08:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solectria PVI 15 issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, could it be a soft grid issue? Where if you put power into the grid, it changes voltages? Measure the grid voltage using a recording meter like an Egauge, use the one (1) second scale (10 minutes regestar). Sorry if this is of no help. On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 5:58 PM Tump wrote: > Folks I have been asked to review a issue w/ this inverter. Solectria PVI > 15 DMGI245 S/N 070924-14, 3 ph 480V inverter, 70 Solon Blue 230 Watt > modules. Issue is; the inverter shuts off due towhees 2 messages; > “Contactor Fail" or "AC Contact Open”. Happens more frequently during > cloudy weather, but it apparently its faulting more frequently. > After reset once the inverter restarts you can hear the contactor pull in > and then it faults, contactor has been replaced multiple times. I have not > been on site yet. > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Tump > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ********ctria ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Tue Mar 30 21:24:38 2021 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 17:24:38 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter Message-ID: Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power to the grid.  That may change but that is how it stands now.  The customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or even give excess power away.  Do any of you have any experience setting up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid under any circumstances?  Just wondering before I dig any deeper if there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. From will at solarenergy.org Wed Mar 31 07:29:12 2021 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 07:29:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to producing more than the loads require. I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well. Thanks, Will -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan wrote: > Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that > is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power > to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The > customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or > even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting > up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid > under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if > there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 31 07:35:57 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 07:35:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would be accomplished. It's an interesting question. I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party listing/certification. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White wrote: > Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but > you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter > can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to > producing more than the loads require. > > I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter > manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge > and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well. > > Thanks, > Will > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan wrote: > >> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that >> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power >> to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The >> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or >> even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting >> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid >> under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if >> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Mar 31 11:06:08 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 08:06:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On the other hand, utilities /have/ accepted inverters to shut-off power production into the grid if the grid fails via, I assume, software and/or electro-mechanical means. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 3/31/2021 4:35 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to > loads that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before > production is curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether > there is a failsafe method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm > not sure how that would be accomplished. It's an interesting question. > > I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based > solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party > listing/certification. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White > wrote: > > Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the > grid) but you need an additional CT on the main service conductors > so the inverter can monitor the loads and ramp down production if > it starts to get close to producing more than the loads require. > > I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the > inverter manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe > both SolarEdge and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well. > > Thanks, > Will > > > -- > *Will White* > Curriculum Developer > > > e: will at solarenergy.org > w: www.solarenergy.org > p: 802-272-3092 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > # 093006-34 > Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change > . > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan > wrote: > > Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 > kW) that > is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow > selling power > to the grid.  That may change but that is how it stands now.  The > customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not > sell or > even give excess power away.  Do any of you have any > experience setting > up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the > grid > under any circumstances?  Just wondering before I dig any > deeper if > there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 11:04:51 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:04:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A number of companies have this feature which is under their UL listing. SE SolArk To name 2. Are you saying that the UL listing isn’t enough and that it needs 3rd party testing. If so what organization/testing would that be? Jay Peltz power > On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would be accomplished. It's an interesting question. > > I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party listing/certification. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > >> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White wrote: >> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to producing more than the loads require. >> >> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well. >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> >> -- >> Will White >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. >> >> >>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan wrote: >>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that >>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power >>> to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The >>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or >>> even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting >>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid >>> under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if >>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, >>> >>> Greg Egan >>> Remote Power Inc. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 31 11:20:04 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:20:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, for certain. Enphase has specific grid profiles (software) to accommodate utilities with zero export rules. It's my understanding that this is widely accepted. Other manufacturers support zero export, too. Even battery manufacturers are in on this, like Tesla Powerwalls can have zero export profiles or sell back stored energy to the grid for time-of-use and smart grid purposes. Jason On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 11:04 AM frenergy wrote: > On the other hand, utilities *have* accepted inverters to shut-off power > production into the grid if the grid fails via, I assume, software and/or > electro-mechanical means. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 3/31/2021 4:35 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads > that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is > curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe > method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would > be accomplished. It's an interesting question. > > I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based > solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party > listing/certification. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White wrote: > >> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but >> you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter >> can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to >> producing more than the loads require. >> >> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter >> manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge >> and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well. >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> >> >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >> >> . >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that >>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power >>> to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The >>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or >>> even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting >>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid >>> under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if >>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, >>> >>> Greg Egan >>> Remote Power Inc. >>> >>> >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 12:28:36 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:28:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Greg, As Will mentioned, this mode of operation is doable with SolarEdge, but it will require some additional hardware—specifically, you will need an energy meter as well as CTs for each power phase. Here is some documentation to get you started: - Export Limitation brochure - Energy Meter webpage - Export Limitation application note You'll note that SolarEdge calls this feature "export limitation" as opposed to simply "zero export." That is because the user can limit the amount of power (e.g., 1 kW, 2 kW, etc.) that is exported - or none* at all. *Related to Jason's point, please note the following information included in the application note (page 24): " “Zero export” term can be misleading at times as one may think that export to the grid is always avoided. In fact, “zero export” mode is expected to export some energy to the grid in some edge cases. The solar systems strives to produce as much power as possible for the site consumption, however, load change events constantly occur. The zero export-regulated system tries to match production-power and load-consumption-power at all times. During the transition periods, some export power is inevitable." -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 5:24 PM wrote: > > Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that > is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power > to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The > customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or > even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting > up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid > under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if > there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 31 12:01:49 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:01:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does UL1741 cover zero sell? I wasn't aware of that. I thought it just covered anti-islanding. If zero sell is covered, I don't see why a utility would not accept that. On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 11:51 AM Jay wrote: > A number of companies have this feature which is under their UL listing. > SE > SolArk > To name 2. > > Are you saying that the UL listing isn’t enough and that it needs 3rd > party testing. > If so what organization/testing would that be? > > Jay > Peltz power > > On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads > that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is > curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe > method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would > be accomplished. It's an interesting question. > > I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based > solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party > listing/certification. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White wrote: > >> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but >> you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter >> can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to >> producing more than the loads require. >> >> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter >> manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge >> and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well. >> >> Thanks, >> Will >> >> >> -- >> *Will White* >> Curriculum Developer >> >> >> e: will at solarenergy.org >> w: www.solarenergy.org >> p: 802-272-3092 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> # 093006-34 >> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change >> . >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that >>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power >>> to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The >>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or >>> even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting >>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid >>> under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if >>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, >>> >>> Greg Egan >>> Remote Power Inc. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 31 12:48:18 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:48:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure Message-ID: Friends: We just finished a grid-tied project that included a pretty complicated service upgrade. The project is in Monterey County, California. The site is pretty remote on the south end of the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the north with a washout. This makes it time consuming for an inspector to reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in hours. Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday. Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a series of photographs to verify the validity of our installation work. Below is the list they provided. Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the fifth one. I was told that this process will be standard operation procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar installs. This seems wrong to me. I can’t believe that any collection of photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer switch, is installed correctly. I know in the 1980s the solar water heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be headed. I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval. I have very mixed feelings about this “success.” I feel like I cheated on a test. I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this. As always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. List of requested photographs: ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the approved plan. ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to prevent physical damage. ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s installation instructions. ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan (e.g., PV modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown equipment). ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved plan. ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as required by the NEC. ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according to the approved plan. ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment such as inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the approved plan [NEC 690.12]. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 31 13:24:39 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:24:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think this highlights my point. Zero export is not "really" zero export in this case and the use of a third-party energy meter to provide net consumption data would surely not qualify the inverter as a listed device for this purpose. While I'm sure most utilities will accept an inverter designed to provide so-called zero export, it's entirely reasonable to expect that some utilities will take an absolute stance. On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Hello Greg, > > As Will mentioned, this mode of operation is doable with SolarEdge, but it > will require some additional hardware—specifically, you will need an energy > meter as well as CTs for each power phase. > > Here is some documentation to get you started: > - Export Limitation brochure > > - Energy Meter webpage > > - Export Limitation application note > > > You'll note that SolarEdge calls this feature "export limitation" as > opposed to simply "zero export." That is because the user can limit the > amount of power (e.g., 1 kW, 2 kW, etc.) that is exported - or none* at all. > *Related to Jason's point, please note the following information included > in the application note (page 24): > " “Zero export” term can be misleading at times as one may think that > export to the grid > is always avoided. In fact, “zero export” mode is expected to export some > energy to the > grid in some edge cases. The solar systems strives to produce as much > power as > possible for the site consumption, however, load change events constantly > occur. The > zero export-regulated system tries to match production-power and > load-consumption-power at all times. During the transition periods, some > export power is inevitable." > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 5:24 PM wrote: > >> >> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that >> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power >> to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The >> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or >> even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting >> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid >> under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if >> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, >> >> Greg Egan >> Remote Power Inc. >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Mar 31 13:55:26 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 07:55:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87BB21A8-669C-4496-BFED-C32022DC7EE0@villagepowerdesign.com> Sol Ark told me they would provide a letter to any utility or jurisdiction if that would help alleviate there sell back fears. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 31, 2021, at 5:51 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > A number of companies have this feature which is under their UL listing. > SE > SolArk > To name 2. > > Are you saying that the UL listing isn’t enough and that it needs 3rd party testing. > If so what organization/testing would that be? > > Jay > Peltz power > >>> On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>  >> I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would be accomplished. It's an interesting question. >> >> I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party listing/certification. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White wrote: >>> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to producing more than the loads require. >>> >>> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Will >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Will White >>> Curriculum Developer >>> >>> >>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>> p: 802-272-3092 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> # 093006-34 >>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan wrote: >>>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that >>>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power >>>> to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The >>>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or >>>> even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting >>>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid >>>> under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if >>>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, >>>> >>>> Greg Egan >>>> Remote Power Inc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 13:37:40 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:37:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I didn’t say it did. 3 options. The OEM are selling a product that isnt code complaint, doubtful. Or it is included in the UL listing or there isn’t a UL standard for this to test to. I don’t have time but a call to the companies that list this feature would clear it up. Jay Peltz power. > On Mar 31, 2021, at 10:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > Does UL1741 cover zero sell? I wasn't aware of that. I thought it just covered anti-islanding. If zero sell is covered, I don't see why a utility would not accept that. > >> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 11:51 AM Jay wrote: >> A number of companies have this feature which is under their UL listing. >> SE >> SolArk >> To name 2. >> >> Are you saying that the UL listing isn’t enough and that it needs 3rd party testing. >> If so what organization/testing would that be? >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >>>> On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would be accomplished. It's an interesting question. >>> >>> I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party listing/certification. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White wrote: >>>> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to producing more than the loads require. >>>> >>>> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Will >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Will White >>>> Curriculum Developer >>>> >>>> >>>> e: will at solarenergy.org >>>> w: www.solarenergy.org >>>> p: 802-272-3092 >>>> >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>> # 093006-34 >>>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan wrote: >>>>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that >>>>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power >>>>> to the grid. That may change but that is how it stands now. The >>>>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or >>>>> even give excess power away. Do any of you have any experience setting >>>>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid >>>>> under any circumstances? Just wondering before I dig any deeper if >>>>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Greg Egan >>>>> Remote Power Inc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 14:25:24 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:25:24 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William; I attended a Zoom webinar last spring during the worst of Covid, there were various AHJs from around the US explaining how they were implementing remote video inspections for solar permits, and photographs, checklists and all that. I think Jeff Spies facilitated it, can't remember the organization that sponsored it though. You might reach out to Jeff, I bet the conference was recorded. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 11:37 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > We just finished a grid-tied project > > that included a pretty complicated service upgrade. The project is in > Monterey County, California. The site is pretty remote on the south end of > the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the > north with a washout. This makes it time consuming for an inspector to > reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in > hours. > > > > Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building > department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday. > Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too > busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a series of > photographs to verify the validity of our installation work. Below is the > list they provided. Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the > fifth one. I was told that this process will be standard operation > procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar > installs. > > > > This seems wrong to me. I can’t believe that any collection of > photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic > system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer > switch, is installed correctly. I know in the 1980s the solar water > heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy > installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be > headed. > > > > I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval. I have > very mixed feelings about this “success.” I feel like I cheated on a > test. > > > > I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this. As > always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. > > > > List of requested photographs: > > > > ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the > approved plan. > > ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to > prevent physical damage. > > ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s > installation instructions. > > ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan > (e.g., PV modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown > equipment). > > ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved > plan. > > ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as > required by the NEC. > > ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according > to the approved plan. > > ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment > such as inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for > PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. > > ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the > approved plan [NEC 690.12]. > > > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Mar 31 15:16:46 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 15:16:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure Message-ID: <5vip27l5mm77ltoq3crt7nov.1617218045720@email.lge.com> Come to VT... No inspection needed for residential solar installations at all (in the majority of the state). Having done hundreds of inspections for NYS, I can tell you that quality and code compliance race for the bottom dollar the majority of the time.Having been called upon to troubleshoot or expand others systems, it is the wild west.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William MillerDate: Wed, Mar 31, 2021 1:37 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedureFriends: We just finished a grid-tied project that included a pretty complicated service upgrade.  The project is in Monterey County, California.  The site is pretty remote on the south end of the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the north with a washout.  This makes it time consuming for an inspector to reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in hours. Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday.  Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too busy to make the appointment.  Instead I was directed to take a series of photographs to verify the validity of our installation work.  Below is the list they provided.  Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the fifth one.  I was told that this process will be standard operation procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar installs.   This seems wrong to me.  I can’t believe that any collection of photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer switch, is installed correctly.  I know in the 1980s the solar water heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be headed.   I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval.  I have very mixed feelings about this “success.”  I feel like I cheated on a test.   I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this.  As always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. List of requested photographs: ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the approved plan.  ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan.  ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to prevent physical damage.  ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s installation instructions.  ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan (e.g., PV   modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown equipment).  ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved plan.  ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as required by the  NEC.  ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan.  ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according to the approved plan.  ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment such as  inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for PV modules) [NEC 110.26].  ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the approved  plan [NEC 690.12].  William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Wed Mar 31 15:24:36 2021 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:24:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, our city inspectors have moved a bit into this direction for some inspections... asking for specific photos fairly similar to the list you were given. While I feel that the inspection process on typical residential (and commercial of all sizes, for that matter) often, but not always, falls terribly short of adequate, in my opinion, I agree with you that the system you described warrants a closer, in person inspection. I would think a follow-up phone call to ask questions would at least help a bit. Maybe if you have (Code) questions about what you did then you should request one? Cheers, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 > On Mar 31, 2021, at 10:48 AM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > We just finished a grid-tied project that included a pretty complicated service upgrade. The project is in Monterey County, California. The site is pretty remote on the south end of the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the north with a washout. This makes it time consuming for an inspector to reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in hours. > > Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday. Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a series of photographs to verify the validity of our installation work. Below is the list they provided. Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the fifth one. I was told that this process will be standard operation procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar installs. > > This seems wrong to me. I can’t believe that any collection of photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer switch, is installed correctly. I know in the 1980s the solar water heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be headed. > > I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval. I have very mixed feelings about this “success.” I feel like I cheated on a test. > > I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this. As always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. > > List of requested photographs: > > ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the approved plan. > ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. > ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to prevent physical damage. > ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s installation instructions. > ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan (e.g., PV modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown equipment). > ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved plan. > ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as required by the NEC. > ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. > ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according to the approved plan. > ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment such as inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. > ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the approved plan [NEC 690.12]. > > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Mar 31 16:48:50 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 16:48:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Imagine this... Hurricane central here and almost no jurisdictions get on the roof. Most do structural inspections by affidavit where the contractor signs their life away and accepts all liability. The structural inspection is a guy coming out and taking a picture of the affidavit (real efficient use of government resources - don't get me started). The electrical inspections are decidedly more thorough, but a good reputation and clean work goes a very long way. Most of our inspections go something like, "wow, this is refreshing." The solar vultures down here end up with multiple failed inspections. based on some of the systems I have had to clean up, I'm not surprised and I'm pretty relieved. But the structural problems slip under the radar. Jason Szumlanski On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 1:37 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > We just finished a grid-tied project > > that included a pretty complicated service upgrade. The project is in > Monterey County, California. The site is pretty remote on the south end of > the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the > north with a washout. This makes it time consuming for an inspector to > reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in > hours. > > > > Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building > department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday. > Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too > busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a series of > photographs to verify the validity of our installation work. Below is the > list they provided. Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the > fifth one. I was told that this process will be standard operation > procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar > installs. > > > > This seems wrong to me. I can’t believe that any collection of > photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic > system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer > switch, is installed correctly. I know in the 1980s the solar water > heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy > installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be > headed. > > > > I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval. I have > very mixed feelings about this “success.” I feel like I cheated on a > test. > > > > I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this. As > always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. > > > > List of requested photographs: > > > > ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the > approved plan. > > ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to > prevent physical damage. > > ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s > installation instructions. > > ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan > (e.g., PV modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown > equipment). > > ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved > plan. > > ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as > required by the NEC. > > ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according > to the approved plan. > > ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment > such as inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for > PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. > > ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the > approved plan [NEC 690.12]. > > > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Mar 31 16:08:08 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:08:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52d5a87d73230c5bc1c1fadd03a7b764@mail.gmail.com> Benn: I have no questions about our work. I have questions about the competition’s work. I want to complete on equal footing: code compliant, quality installations. If houses start burning down due to poor solar installs the industry suffers, as does the effort to mitigate climate change. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Benn Kilburn [mailto:benn at skyfireenergy.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, March 31, 2021 12:25 PM *To:* william at millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure William, our city inspectors have moved a bit into this direction for some inspections... asking for specific photos fairly similar to the list you were given. While I feel that the inspection process on typical residential (and commercial of all sizes, for that matter) often, but not always, falls terribly short of adequate, in my opinion, I agree with you that the system you described warrants a closer, in person inspection. I would think a follow-up phone call to ask questions would at least help a bit. Maybe if you have (Code) questions about what you did then you should request one? Cheers, Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 On Mar 31, 2021, at 10:48 AM, William Miller wrote: Friends: We just finished a grid-tied project that included a pretty complicated service upgrade. The project is in Monterey County, California. The site is pretty remote on the south end of the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the north with a washout. This makes it time consuming for an inspector to reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in hours. Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday. Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a series of photographs to verify the validity of our installation work. Below is the list they provided. Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the fifth one. I was told that this process will be standard operation procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar installs. This seems wrong to me. I can’t believe that any collection of photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer switch, is installed correctly. I know in the 1980s the solar water heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be headed. I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval. I have very mixed feelings about this “success.” I feel like I cheated on a test. I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this. As always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. List of requested photographs: ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the approved plan. ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to prevent physical damage. ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s installation instructions. ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan (e.g., PV modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown equipment). ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved plan. ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as required by the NEC. ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according to the approved plan. ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment such as inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the approved plan [NEC 690.12]. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Mar 31 17:20:20 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 17:20:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the real point is:  even with on site inspections they often don't know what they are looking at, and do not have time or manpower to keep up with the latest in solar industry practices. I've seen just horrible stuff that passed inspection, including a battery cabinet completely blocked by another piece of equipment. With busy construction schedules, many inspectors have to trust that an installer that has been in business for a really long time like you have been William, knows what they are doing, and can be trusted to a certain extent.  I've gotten to a point with repeat inspectors that really don't open every box, and look at everything.  They trust us. Further, when I take on a repair or replacement project, we often think we've checked everything, only to find some grossly negligent connection or wiring scheme that we just didn't catch at first, because it was so out of the ordinary.  How about a #4 ground wire that looks properly attached at the electrode and back at the main AC panel, but turned out to be not connected in the wall.....in a J box that had been plastered over. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 3/31/21 12:48 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > We just finished a grid-tied project > > that included a pretty complicated service upgrade.  The project is in > Monterey County, California.  The site is pretty remote on the south > end of the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not > uncommon) to the north with a washout. This makes it time consuming > for an inspector to reach the site, but even without the washout the > travel time is measured in hours. > > Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building > department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday.  > Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were > too busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a > series of photographs to verify the validity of our installation > work.  Below is the list they provided.  Note how vague the > requirements are, particularly the fifth one.  I was told that this > process will be standard operation procedure for the County of > Monterey in the near future for solar installs. > > This seems wrong to me.  I can’t believe that any collection of > photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple > photovoltaic system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 > amp transfer switch, is installed correctly.  I know in the 1980s the > solar water heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due > to shoddy installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV > industry may be headed. > > I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval.  I > have very mixed feelings about this “success.” I feel like I cheated > on a test. > > I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this.  As > always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. > > List of requested photographs: > > ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the > approved plan. > > ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to > prevent physical damage. > > ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the > manufacturer’s installation instructions. > > ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved > plan (e.g., PV   modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, > rapid shutdown equipment). > > ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved > plan. > > ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as > required by the  NEC. > > ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system > according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV > equipment such as  inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not > required for PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. > > ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to > the approved  plan [NEC 690.12]. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Thu Apr 1 13:26:56 2021 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 11:26:56 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zomeworks reflectors Message-ID: <00af01d7271c$377ff820$a67fe860$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Does anyone know where a replacement set of reflectors for the freon tubes for a UTR-F120 tracker could be found? Feel free to contact me off list. THANKS! Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Thu Apr 1 14:43:05 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 14:43:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions Message-ID: G'day All, We don't seem to see much on wind these days on the wrenches, so now is the time to blow out some of the cobwebs. Anyway, I'm getting dragged kicking and screaming into a Missouri Raptor 7 blade Freedom 1.6kw offgrid wind project and in search of a tilt up tower. Back in the day it would have come from SWWP but now I haven't a clue. The client already purchased the turbine but if you have any experience with this unit and things to be aware of that would be appreciated as well. System voltage is 48vdc. Stay healthy my friends, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Apr 1 15:30:59 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 15:30:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions Message-ID: <44guuuikjdba1nvvet2egj37.1617305375154@email.lge.com> Hi Christopher,Texas Towers is a company that handles a lot of towers for amateur radio use, and may be able to help you out, or refer you to another.Good luck!-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Chris SchaeferDate: Thu, Apr 1, 2021 2:43 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestionsG'day All,We don't seem to see much on wind these days on the wrenches, so now is the time to blow out some of the cobwebs. Anyway, I'm getting dragged kicking and screaming into a Missouri Raptor 7 blade Freedom 1.6kw offgrid wind project and in search of a tilt up tower. Back in the day it would have come from SWWP but now I haven't a clue. The client already purchased the turbine but if you have any experience with this unit and things to be aware of that would be appreciated as well. System voltage is 48vdc.Stay healthy my friends,Christopher-Chris Schaefer’sTel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 15:33:48 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 13:33:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris; I would be kicking and screaming regarding installation of anything provided by that company, including their turbines, controllers, and diversion load heaters. They don't seem to have a grasp on even the basic concepts of successful small wind installations. They don't provide power curves or performance data, and don't seem to understand the physics behind how the number of blades, tip speed ratios, etc. relate to output performance. That "1.6 kW" turbine your customer wants has only a 5-foot diameter rotor! 1.6 kW in a 60 mph wind maybe. How tall does the tower need to be to get at least 30 feet above any obstructions within 500 feet, and will the system need AHJ permits? Anything under 40 feet is a waste of the homeowner's money. You can get steel tower coupling sections fabricated and use standard steel tubing (NOT pipe) for the tower sections. These are easy to work with, and I have even seen them approved and wet stamped by engineers, up to ~80 feet anyway. (photo attached) SWWP used to sell metal couplers to fit standard pipe, which made for a noodly tower, but it was OK, and engineered that way, and has engineering drawings. Not sure if anyone still makes those, perhaps the Indian company that bought out SWWP's designs? I'm guessing you have a DIY type homeowner and that they won't want a tall tower (sigh). Another option is surplus NRG towers, which have swaged ends that slide together, and guy wire rings that slide over the joints. I've seen these successfully fly fairly large turbines approaching 150 feet tower height. Not engineer-stamped for that application though, they are MET towers. And probably WAY more sturdy and expensive than what you need for that dinky "1.6 kW" turbine. If you can't decline the job, I'd go with couplers, either fabricated with and for steel tubing, or those SWWP couplers if you can find them. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 12:43 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'day All, > > We don't seem to see much on wind these days on the wrenches, so now is > the time to blow out some of the cobwebs. Anyway, I'm getting dragged > kicking and screaming into a Missouri Raptor 7 blade Freedom 1.6kw > offgrid wind project and in search of a tilt up tower. Back in the day it > would have come from SWWP but now I haven't a clue. The client already > purchased the turbine but if you have any experience with this unit and > things to be aware of that would be appreciated as well. System voltage is > 48vdc. > > Stay healthy my friends, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oc15#0041.tif Type: image/tiff Size: 173136 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 16:27:02 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 14:27:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDF38F4-A865-45DB-9814-7344E07FA173@gmail.com> Hi Dan Are there any wind machines you would recommend? Jay Peltz Power > On Apr 1, 2021, at 1:34 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > >  > Chris; I would be kicking and screaming regarding installation of anything provided by that company, including their turbines, controllers, and diversion load heaters. They don't seem to have a grasp on even the basic concepts of successful small wind installations. They don't provide power curves or performance data, and don't seem to understand the physics behind how the number of blades, tip speed ratios, etc. relate to output performance. That "1.6 kW" turbine your customer wants has only a 5-foot diameter rotor! 1.6 kW in a 60 mph wind maybe. > > How tall does the tower need to be to get at least 30 feet above any obstructions within 500 feet, and will the system need AHJ permits? Anything under 40 feet is a waste of the homeowner's money. > > You can get steel tower coupling sections fabricated and use standard steel tubing (NOT pipe) for the tower sections. These are easy to work with, and I have even seen them approved and wet stamped by engineers, up to ~80 feet anyway. (photo attached) > > SWWP used to sell metal couplers to fit standard pipe, which made for a noodly tower, but it was OK, and engineered that way, and has engineering drawings. Not sure if anyone still makes those, perhaps the Indian company that bought out SWWP's designs? I'm guessing you have a DIY type homeowner and that they won't want a tall tower (sigh). > > Another option is surplus NRG towers, which have swaged ends that slide together, and guy wire rings that slide over the joints. I've seen these successfully fly fairly large turbines approaching 150 feet tower height. Not engineer-stamped for that application though, they are MET towers. And probably WAY more sturdy and expensive than what you need for that dinky "1.6 kW" turbine. > > If you can't decline the job, I'd go with couplers, either fabricated with and for steel tubing, or those SWWP couplers if you can find them. > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 12:43 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: >> G'day All, >> >> We don't seem to see much on wind these days on the wrenches, so now is the time to blow out some of the cobwebs. Anyway, I'm getting dragged kicking and screaming into a Missouri Raptor 7 blade Freedom 1.6kw offgrid wind project and in search of a tilt up tower. Back in the day it would have come from SWWP but now I haven't a clue. The client already purchased the turbine but if you have any experience with this unit and things to be aware of that would be appreciated as well. System voltage is 48vdc. >> >> Stay healthy my friends, >> Christopher- >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 18:14:06 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 16:14:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions In-Reply-To: <3FDF38F4-A865-45DB-9814-7344E07FA173@gmail.com> References: <3FDF38F4-A865-45DB-9814-7344E07FA173@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay; The fuzzy definition of "small" in most customer's minds makes it hard to answer the question. I absolutely recommend anything by Bergey, but their "smallest" is 10kW, well within the industry definition of small, but pretty huge and expensive for the typical off-grid residential home. I would feel fairly comfortable with turbines certified by the Small Wind Certification Council (https://smallwindcertification.org/) but they don't gather long-term reliability data. There's a 5kW turbine listed that I hadn't heard of before, and the Skystream 3.7kW (which was bought by a different company than the Whisper series.) The SWWP Whispers were decent machines, but I'm not sure why they are not listed there by the new company owner. For remote off-grid situations without AHJ issues, lots of folks have had good results with Hugh Piggott-style turbines, and there are people out there that make and install them well. But they are not a commercial product, not UL listed or AHJ-friendly, etc., I don't know anything about the Hurricane turbines that Dan Lepinski mentions in this thread, but certainly worth checking out. And maybe dive a little deeper into what's up with the Whispers under their new owner. Rohn towers are a great solution, but as Dan L mentions they are not tilt-up. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 2:48 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Dan > > Are there any wind machines you would recommend? > > Jay > Peltz Power > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 22:08:46 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 19:08:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Depending on the height, I've used street lamp poles, and rig them with a Jin pole to put them up. Jerry On Thu, Apr 1, 2021, 11:43 AM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'day All, > > We don't seem to see much on wind these days on the wrenches, so now is > the time to blow out some of the cobwebs. Anyway, I'm getting dragged > kicking and screaming into a Missouri Raptor 7 blade Freedom 1.6kw > offgrid wind project and in search of a tilt up tower. Back in the day it > would have come from SWWP but now I haven't a clue. The client already > purchased the turbine but if you have any experience with this unit and > things to be aware of that would be appreciated as well. System voltage is > 48vdc. > > Stay healthy my friends, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 23:33:57 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 20:33:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches virtual inspections are becoming normal, I am just north of Williams inspection and we started these pics or video all the way back to Late March last year, they do this for the far away location but that also where cell service stinks so video can be difficult Jerry On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:37 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > We just finished a grid-tied project > > that included a pretty complicated service upgrade. The project is in > Monterey County, California. The site is pretty remote on the south end of > the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the > north with a washout. This makes it time consuming for an inspector to > reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in > hours. > > > > Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building > department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday. > Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too > busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a series of > photographs to verify the validity of our installation work. Below is the > list they provided. Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the > fifth one. I was told that this process will be standard operation > procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar > installs. > > > > This seems wrong to me. I can’t believe that any collection of > photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic > system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer > switch, is installed correctly. I know in the 1980s the solar water > heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy > installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be > headed. > > > > I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval. I have > very mixed feelings about this “success.” I feel like I cheated on a > test. > > > > I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this. As > always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. > > > > List of requested photographs: > > > > ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the > approved plan. > > ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to > prevent physical damage. > > ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s > installation instructions. > > ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan > (e.g., PV modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown > equipment). > > ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved > plan. > > ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as > required by the NEC. > > ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according > to the approved plan. > > ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment > such as inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for > PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. > > ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the > approved plan [NEC 690.12]. > > > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Thu Apr 1 22:22:58 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 19:22:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015801d72767$19e67f50$4db37df0$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Chris, Lake Michigan Wind & Sun made a really good tilt up using 5” pipe sourced locally with their engineered tower kit. Not cheap but you got what you paid for! Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2021 11:43 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions G'day All, We don't seem to see much on wind these days on the wrenches, so now is the time to blow out some of the cobwebs. Anyway, I'm getting dragged kicking and screaming into a Missouri Raptor 7 blade Freedom 1.6kw offgrid wind project and in search of a tilt up tower. Back in the day it would have come from SWWP but now I haven't a clue. The client already purchased the turbine but if you have any experience with this unit and things to be aware of that would be appreciated as well. System voltage is 48vdc. Stay healthy my friends, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Apr 2 06:51:30 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (cwarfel at entech-engineering.com) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 06:51:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been on both sides of the part of this process where this has become somewhat normal for smaller installations. The company overseeing the work has a Word template that is pretty clunky. I am not a fan of this for some of the reasons stated, but the cost of on site inspection by those who are specialized in the technology can be pretty high. Some of the on site inspection processes are over the top too. Most of it seems to be about gathering data to generate reports that justifies the expense of hiring the company that is doing the inspections. My recommendation is if you know this is going to be required, take pictures as the system is being built. Some of the requested information is impractical, not acessable, etc after the system is installed unless you are going to start taking things apart, which I am telling the inspection company I am not going to do. Get me the process now, and not after the fact. Chris On 2021-04-01 23:33, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > virtual inspections are becoming normal, I am just north of Williams inspection and we started these pics or video all the way back to Late March last year, they do this for the far away location but that also where cell service stinks so video can be difficult > Jerry > > On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:37 AM William Miller wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> We just finished a grid-tied project [1] that included a pretty complicated service upgrade. The project is in Monterey County, California. The site is pretty remote on the south end of the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the north with a washout. This makes it time consuming for an inspector to reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in hours. >> >> Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday. Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a series of photographs to verify the validity of our installation work. Below is the list they provided. Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the fifth one. I was told that this process will be standard operation procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar installs. >> >> This seems wrong to me. I can't believe that any collection of photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer switch, is installed correctly. I know in the 1980s the solar water heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be headed. >> >> I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval. I have very mixed feelings about this "success." I feel like I cheated on a test. >> >> I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this. As always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. >> >> List of requested photographs: >> >> ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the approved plan. >> >> ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. >> >> ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to prevent physical damage. >> >> ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer's installation instructions. >> >> ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan (e.g., PV modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown equipment). >> >> ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved plan. >> >> ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as required by the NEC. >> >> ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. >> >> ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according to the approved plan. >> >> ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment such as inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. >> >> ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the approved plan [NEC 690.12]. >> >> William Miller >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com [2] >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Rework/BIG-SUR-SERVICE/Big_Sur_Service_Upgrade.html [2] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 14:09:02 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 12:09:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ITC on replacement parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B82C2A6-0967-4259-9062-13C300B0911E@gmail.com> Can anyone clear up for me if the ITC applies to replacement parts? In this case batteries, I’m pretty sure no, but Im not totally sure. Thanks jay Peltz Power From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 22:12:18 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 22:12:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions In-Reply-To: <015801d72767$19e67f50$4db37df0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <015801d72767$19e67f50$4db37df0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Wind Wrenchers, I have been searching the internet extensively in search of a replacement and improvement for the Bergey XL.1. Now that they are no longer available, I have stooped to looking at anything that spins, looks like the blades may stay on, a company that has been around for awhile, has at least 5 reviews, and has a decent power curve. So far I have found two. The SuperWind 1kw made in Germany is a strong, well made unit, designed for mountaintop communications sites. Power production is modest but it has survived two winters atop a 2800' mountain in Vermont. As the site is solar and generator powered and load is a modest 350 watts 24/7, it has done very well reducing the generator time and saving lots of propane and ATV or snowmobile trips up the mountain with 100 lb cylinders. We have it on a 45' 4" diameter tilt up tower custom made from Bergey and NRG tower parts. The only problem has been icing events where we have seen up to 2 weeks with no wind power after an icing event. The nacelle and nose cone clearance is paper thin, where ice can collect. The unit is all white so maybe a dark color would have melted off sooner. Price for just the turbine, controller and dump load was around $7 or $8K. The other one I just ordered and hope it works. It is a 1000 watt TUMO-INT 3 blade furling tail 48v turbine with controller and dump load. The power curve is slightly better than the XL.1 It was on sale on Amazon for $999.00. I should have it in 3 weeks and will report if it works. It is about the same weight as the Bergey XL.1. I have an 85' NRG tilt up tower on the ground waiting for a new turbine. I had a PIKA 1.6kw for a year and a half and it worked great but had to sell it to one of my customers when PIKA stopped making them. It is still running fine at my customers place. What I really want is for the PIKA to be put back in production. It was a perfect off grid supplement with no issues that I could see. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 1:56 AM Chris Worcester wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Lake Michigan Wind & Sun made a really good tilt up using 5” pipe sourced > locally with their engineered tower kit. Not cheap but you got what you > paid for! > > > > Chris Worcester > > Solar Wind Works > > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > Cell 530-448-9692 > > www.solarwindworks.com > > chris at solarwindworks.com > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Thursday, April 01, 2021 11:43 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] guyed tilt up tower suggestions > > > > G'day All, > > > > We don't seem to see much on wind these days on the wrenches, so now is > the time to blow out some of the cobwebs. Anyway, I'm getting dragged > kicking and screaming into a Missouri Raptor 7 blade Freedom 1.6kw offgrid > wind project and in search of a tilt up tower. Back in the day it would > have come from SWWP but now I haven't a clue. The client already purchased > the turbine but if you have any experience with this unit and things to be > aware of that would be appreciated as well. System voltage is 48vdc. > > > > Stay healthy my friends, > > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sat Apr 3 23:14:16 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 22:14:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IAEI Online Articles In-Reply-To: <1598319080822.5cefadb11eae317a@re-wrenches.org> References: <1598319080822.5cefadb11eae317a@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: Just wanted to let everyone know that the IAEI Magazine online articles appear to be back up and running. CS On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 5:55 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Thanks for that info, Ryan. I noticed the following note posted on the > page you linked: [Update: IAEImagazine.org is currently unavailable due to > a network server error.] > So hopefully it is just a temporary technology issue and free access to the > article archive can be restored soon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Apr 5 09:40:08 2021 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 09:40:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, I've never had an AHJ request pictures in lieu of a physical inspection but I've personally performed many inspections as a third-party inspector using photos. As long as you have quality pictures a good inspector can find most major issues. The key is having good photos of the proper equipment. At the very least they should be able to identify when a physical inspection is necessary. I'm all for remote inspections which saves time and money for everyone involved. Thanks, Will On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 1:37 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > We just finished a grid-tied project > > that included a pretty complicated service upgrade. The project is in > Monterey County, California. The site is pretty remote on the south end of > the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the > north with a washout. This makes it time consuming for an inspector to > reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in > hours. > > > > Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building > department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday. > Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too > busy to make the appointment. Instead I was directed to take a series of > photographs to verify the validity of our installation work. Below is the > list they provided. Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the > fifth one. I was told that this process will be standard operation > procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar > installs. > > > > This seems wrong to me. I can’t believe that any collection of > photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic > system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer > switch, is installed correctly. I know in the 1980s the solar water > heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy > installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be > headed. > > > > I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval. I have > very mixed feelings about this “success.” I feel like I cheated on a > test. > > > > I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this. As > always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. > > > > List of requested photographs: > > > > ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the > approved plan. > > ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to > prevent physical damage. > > ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s > installation instructions. > > ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan > (e.g., PV modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown > equipment). > > ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved > plan. > > ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as > required by the NEC. > > ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan. > > ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according > to the approved plan. > > ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment > such as inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for > PV modules) [NEC 110.26]. > > ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the > approved plan [NEC 690.12]. > > > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Apr 5 11:18:32 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:18:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2HP submersible ala OB Flexpower2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Off-gridders,             I'm looking for anyone who has experience powering a 2 HP (or even a 1 1/2 HP) submersible 3-wire well pump with a OB FlexPower2 (30 KWhrs of L-ion battery at 48 volt).  I'm mostly interested in just starting the pump as I'm sure it would run it. The lift out of the well is 110 feet plus it would be starting against 30 psi into an elevated tank.  I'm not concerned about flickering lights because of the elevated storage tank the pump only runs once a day, whilst sunny. Any experiences welcome. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Apr 5 12:01:45 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 09:01:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2HP submersible ala OB Flexpower2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a4ce983f4fbbea922b2fc96ecfbaf3a@127.0.0.1> Hey Bill, I think you need to spec the model that is in there more that the HP. When you say 3 wire is the controller above ground like a Franklin with the capacitors and reduced surge? I do not know the Outback models by memory, it is 240 right? That depth does not sound too expensive to replace the pump with a soft start like Grundfos. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:18:32 -0700, frenergy wrote: > Off-gridders, > >             I'm looking for anyone who has experience powering a 2 HP > (or even a 1 1/2 HP) submersible 3-wire well pump with a OB FlexPower2 > (30 KWhrs of L-ion battery at 48 volt).  I'm mostly interested in just > starting the pump as I'm sure it would run it. The lift out of the well > is 110 feet plus it would be starting against 30 psi into an elevated > tank.  I'm not concerned about flickering lights because of the elevated > storage tank the pump only runs once a day, whilst sunny. > > Any experiences welcome. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 11:46:48 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 09:46:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2HP submersible ala OB Flexpower2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill Yes it will work, of course depends on if there are other large loads on at the same time The radian has greater start surge. Jay Peltz Power > On Apr 5, 2021, at 9:16 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Off-gridders, > > I'm looking for anyone who has experience powering a 2 HP (or even a 1 1/2 HP) submersible 3-wire well pump with a OB FlexPower2 (30 KWhrs of L-ion battery at 48 volt). I'm mostly interested in just starting the pump as I'm sure it would run it. The lift out of the well is 110 feet plus it would be starting against 30 psi into an elevated tank. I'm not concerned about flickering lights because of the elevated storage tank the pump only runs once a day, whilst sunny. > > Any experiences welcome. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Apr 6 20:54:43 2021 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 18:54:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pool heating solutions Message-ID: <017f01d72b48$99964200$ccc2c600$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I have an old customer who’s moved to Palm Springs, CA; and she’s looking for some pool heating ideas. Please feel free to contact me off list. Best, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 22:02:47 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 21:02:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pool heating solutions In-Reply-To: <017f01d72b48$99964200$ccc2c600$@OasisMontana.com> References: <017f01d72b48$99964200$ccc2c600$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, It is about 30 or 40 years since I installed solar pool heating. 0) a pool cover is the best heat source, should be easy on and off 1) use an ECM pool pump, big cost savings. As the pump will run a lot. It will quickly pay for itself 2) I liked the 4 foot, 3 foot? wide headers and downcomers with EPDM rubber tubes. I am not crazy consider a large solar PV Array and an Air Source heat pump 3) They come in various lengths. 8,10,12,feet? On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 8:22 PM wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > I have an old customer who’s moved to Palm Springs, CA; and she’s looking > for some pool heating ideas. Please feel free to contact me off list. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed Apr 7 10:47:05 2021 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (SES) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 07:47:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pool heating solutions In-Reply-To: References: <017f01d72b48$99964200$ccc2c600$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <8C2C5A68-34C9-4130-9C92-8BF468482F55@yahoo.com> We use a SunStar / Heliocol panels for solar pool heating. Properly sized and installed most don’t feel any other source of heat is needed. We consider solar pool heating the no brainer of the solar industry. Smiles, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > On Apr 6, 2021, at 7:02 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > > Hi Chris, It is about 30 or 40 years since I installed solar pool heating. > 0) a pool cover is the best heat source, should be easy on and off > 1) use an ECM pool pump, big cost savings. As the pump will run a lot. It will quickly pay for itself > 2) I liked the 4 foot, 3 foot? wide headers and downcomers with EPDM rubber tubes. > I am not crazy consider a large solar PV Array and an Air Source heat pump > 3) They come in various lengths. 8,10,12,feet? > >> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 8:22 PM wrote: >> Hi folks: >> >> >> >> I have an old customer who’s moved to Palm Springs, CA; and she’s looking for some pool heating ideas. Please feel free to contact me off list. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 12:26:23 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:26:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pool heating solutions In-Reply-To: <017f01d72b48$99964200$ccc2c600$@OasisMontana.com> References: <017f01d72b48$99964200$ccc2c600$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I install pool heating. We use 12" wide EPDM rubber collectors. We usually quote for a collector that is 2/3 of the pool surface area. I can give you a contact that will supply everything as a package and advise on engineering. On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 9:22 PM wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > I have an old customer who’s moved to Palm Springs, CA; and she’s looking > for some pool heating ideas. Please feel free to contact me off list. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Apr 7 13:25:45 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:25:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IAEI Online Articles In-Reply-To: References: <1598319080822.5cefadb11eae317a@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: Thanks Corey, it'd had been a while since I checked, glad to see it back online. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 8:14 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Just wanted to let everyone know that the IAEI Magazine online articles > appear to be back up and running. > CS > > > On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 5:55 PM Corey Shalanski >> wrote: >> Thanks for that info, Ryan. I noticed the following note posted on the >> page you linked: [Update: IAEImagazine.org is currently unavailable due to >> a network server error.] >> > So hopefully it is just a temporary technology issue and free access to >> the article archive can be restored soon. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Wed Apr 7 20:09:20 2021 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 20:09:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pool heating solutions In-Reply-To: References: <017f01d72b48$99964200$ccc2c600$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: I'd recommend the Heliocol pool collectors. UMA Solar is a reliable supplier. With Kind Regards Carl Adams SunRock Solar On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 12:26 PM Chris Mason wrote: > I install pool heating. We use 12" wide EPDM rubber collectors. > We usually quote for a collector that is 2/3 of the pool surface area. > I can give you a contact that will supply everything as a package and > advise on engineering. > > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 9:22 PM wrote: > >> Hi folks: >> >> >> >> I have an old customer who’s moved to Palm Springs, CA; and she’s looking >> for some pool heating ideas. Please feel free to contact me off list. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Apr 10 11:41:11 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 08:41:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tie inverter with zero export or non-selling mode Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I do not see much grid-tie and never with a battery less inverter. I have a client who wants me to explore zero export for them. I have looked at http://www.elgrispower.com/ Is there such a thing in a medium size 6 KW Grid inverter built-in that can zero export? Or, Do I have to externally wire power meters ect? Thank-you ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 12:32:41 2021 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 09:32:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tie inverter with zero export or non-selling mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6AD03938-60CA-45C1-AEE2-0E00D8097137@gmail.com> Check out Sol-Ark. They don’t need batteries to operate, but I’d consider throwing some storage in the mix. I’ve installed several zero-export systems using Sol-Ark. https://www.sol-ark.com/ Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Apr 10, 2021, at 8:41 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > Hi Wrenches, > > I do not see much grid-tie and never with a battery less inverter. I have a client who wants me to explore zero export for them. I have looked at http://www.elgrispower.com/ > > Is there such a thing in a medium size 6 KW Grid inverter built-in that can zero export? Or, Do I have to externally wire power meters ect? > > Thank-you ! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Apr 10 15:53:55 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 12:53:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems Message-ID: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> Friends: We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I am trying to school myself on some of the aspects. Monitoring is the subject at hand. One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online platform. There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that looks like it is simply an analytics service. Have I correctly categorized the above entities? Does anyone have experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as to the pros and cons of these services? Anyone have any documentation on the hardware? Thanks in advance! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 17:52:54 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 14:52:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems In-Reply-To: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches I have used many of the monitoring platforms, many of which are either out or bought out and consolidated. Anybody remember "Fat Spaniel" they were one of the first. We had sites with full motion cameras to string level monitoring. Now if its up to me I go simple with eguage, they have whats needed and have a better chance of being around in a few years. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 1:38 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I am > trying to school myself on some of the aspects. Monitoring is the subject > at hand. > > > > One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online > platform. There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that looks > like it is simply an analytics service. > > > > Have I correctly categorized the above entities? Does anyone have > experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as to the > pros and cons of these services? Anyone have any documentation on the > hardware? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Sat Apr 10 22:42:37 2021 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 19:42:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems In-Reply-To: References: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b4f09d7-0af5-b42e-a425-5eb8bc0d1127@berkeleysolar.com> I do remember Fat Spaniel. I remember the day they came to our office to show us their product. It was an enclosure full of power strips, wall warts and wires going everywhere. Origins. On 4/10/2021 2:52 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I have used many of the monitoring platforms, many of which are either > out or bought out and consolidated. Anybody remember "Fat Spaniel" > they were one of the first. We had sites with full motion cameras to > string level monitoring. Now if its up to me I go simple with eguage, > they have whats needed and have a better chance of being around in a > few years. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 1:38 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I > am trying to school myself on some of the aspects.  Monitoring is > the subject at hand. > > One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online > platform.  There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that > looks like it is simply an analytics service. > > Have I correctly categorized the above entities?  Does anyone have > experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as > to the pros and cons of these services?  Anyone have any > documentation on the hardware? > > Thanks in advance! > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 01:01:58 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 22:01:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems In-Reply-To: <2b4f09d7-0af5-b42e-a425-5eb8bc0d1127@berkeleysolar.com> References: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> <2b4f09d7-0af5-b42e-a425-5eb8bc0d1127@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Yes, fat spaniel was an early adaptor with lots of hardware Jerry On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 7:42 PM Mark Frye wrote: > I do remember Fat Spaniel. I remember the day they came to our office to > show us their product. It was an enclosure full of power strips, wall warts > and wires going everywhere. > > Origins. > On 4/10/2021 2:52 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > I have used many of the monitoring platforms, many of which are either out > or bought out and consolidated. Anybody remember "Fat Spaniel" they were > one of the first. We had sites with full motion cameras to string level > monitoring. Now if its up to me I go simple with eguage, they have whats > needed and have a better chance of being around in a few years. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 1:38 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I am >> trying to school myself on some of the aspects. Monitoring is the subject >> at hand. >> >> >> >> One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online >> platform. There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that looks >> like it is simply an analytics service. >> >> >> >> Have I correctly categorized the above entities? Does anyone have >> experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as to the >> pros and cons of these services? Anyone have any documentation on the >> hardware? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com Sun Apr 11 01:58:32 2021 From: thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com (Thomas Hall) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 05:58:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems In-Reply-To: References: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> <2b4f09d7-0af5-b42e-a425-5eb8bc0d1127@berkeleysolar.com>, Message-ID: AlsoEnergy bought a company called Locus Energy, Locus NOC, and bought a company called Deck Monitoring. All good platforms. I have worked with both of those and they work well for commercial revenue grade monitoring and weather reporting equipment integration. Also Energy also bought Draker Labs. What device are you going to work with, or planning to work with William ? I have info on LGate products. Thomas Hall Solar Specialty Group Www.solarspecialtygroup.com Thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com 808-854-9539 NABCEP PV Installation Professional On Apr 10, 2021, at 7:02 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:  Wrenches Yes, fat spaniel was an early adaptor with lots of hardware Jerry On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 7:42 PM Mark Frye > wrote: I do remember Fat Spaniel. I remember the day they came to our office to show us their product. It was an enclosure full of power strips, wall warts and wires going everywhere. Origins. On 4/10/2021 2:52 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I have used many of the monitoring platforms, many of which are either out or bought out and consolidated. Anybody remember "Fat Spaniel" they were one of the first. We had sites with full motion cameras to string level monitoring. Now if its up to me I go simple with eguage, they have whats needed and have a better chance of being around in a few years. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 1:38 PM William Miller > wrote: Friends: We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I am trying to school myself on some of the aspects. Monitoring is the subject at hand. One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online platform. There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that looks like it is simply an analytics service. Have I correctly categorized the above entities? Does anyone have experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as to the pros and cons of these services? Anyone have any documentation on the hardware? Thanks in advance! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 09:27:28 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:27:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems In-Reply-To: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've used Solar-Log for larger systems, they work with a number of inverter systems. On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 4:38 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I am > trying to school myself on some of the aspects. Monitoring is the subject > at hand. > > > > One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online > platform. There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that looks > like it is simply an analytics service. > > > > Have I correctly categorized the above entities? Does anyone have > experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as to the > pros and cons of these services? Anyone have any documentation on the > hardware? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 13:20:39 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 12:20:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tie inverter with zero export or non-selling mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dave, As far as I know, setting up an inverter for zero export will *always* require installation of current transformers (CTs), and those CTs must be connected to some sort of power meter, which in turn must be connected to some sort of control device. Whether the power meter and/or control device are built-in or external varies by manufacturer. See attached diagrams for several examples by popular manufacturers: - Sol-Ark: both power meter and control device appear* to be built-in - * I have never actually worked with Sol-Ark equipment, so someone please correct if this is not the case. - SolarEdge: control device is built-in, power meter is external - SMA: both power meter and control device are external You'll note the presence of CTs in each diagram. Both SMA and SolarEdge offer 6 kW inverters; Sol-Ark appears to only offer only 8 kW and 12 kW options. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 8:41 AM wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I do not see much grid-tie and never with a battery less inverter. I have > a client who wants me to explore zero export for them. I have looked at > http://www.elgrispower.com/ > > Is there such a thing in a medium size 6 KW Grid inverter built-in that > can zero export? Or, Do I have to externally wire power meters ect? > > Thank-you ! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SMA Zero Export Setup.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 112424 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Sol-Ark Zero Export Setup.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 219288 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SolarEdge Zero Export Setup.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 150509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Apr 11 14:36:06 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 11:36:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tie inverter with zero export or non-selling mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56087bbed9bbf060f3bcfd5e5a02f5e2@127.0.0.1> Thanks Corey, I probably will use the Skybox without the battery for the client future. He will have to change out a well pump to a softstart pump later if he wants batteries. BTW Schneider XWP and CSW can run without the transformers in a zero export mode. They run an amp on the primary to always keep from selling. XWP can also have the power meter if one wants to really drop the very small loss. But, you do have a battery, which is why I will probably use the Skybox. He also is an old friend. I may have a consult for you if my client makes his decision on Eleuthera Bahamas or Jamaica. He wants palm trees.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 12:20:39 -0500, Corey Shalanski wrote: Hello Dave, As far as I know, setting up an inverter for zero export will *always* require installation of current transformers (CTs), and those CTs must be connected to some sort of power meter, which in turn must be connected to some sort of control device. Whether the power meter and/or control device are built-in or external varies by manufacturer. See attached diagrams for several examples by popular manufacturers: * Sol-Ark: both power meter and control device appear* to be built-in * * I have never actually worked with Sol-Ark equipment, so someone please correct if this is not the case. * SolarEdge: control device is built-in, power meter is external * SMA: both power meter and control device are external You'll note the presence of CTs in each diagram. Both SMA [3] and SolarEdge [4] offer 6 kW inverters; Sol-Ark [5] appears to only offer only 8 kW and 12 kW options. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 8:41 AM wrote: Hi Wrenches, I do not see much grid-tie and never with a battery less inverter. I have a client who wants me to explore zero export for them. I have looked at http://www.elgrispower.com/ [7] Is there such a thing in a medium size 6 KW Grid inverter built-in that can zero export? Or, Do I have to externally wire power meters ect? Thank-you ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [8] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [9] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://files.sma.de/downloads/SBxx-US-DS-en-38.pdf?_ga=2.179034083.671752729.1618086517-1642740404.1587256948 [4] https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se-hd-wave-single-phase-inverter-with-setapp-datasheet-na.pdf [5] https://www.sol-ark.com/support/ [6] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [7] http://www.elgrispower.com/ [8] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [9] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lawrencesteven at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 10:19:18 2021 From: lawrencesteven at gmail.com (Steven Lawrence) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:19:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William, I've used a lot of services from Fat Spaniel, SolarMagic, Draker, Noveda, AlsoEnergy, Locus, Qantum, Powerfactors, and Green Power Monitoring. Which one is the best is highly dependent upon your preferences and what services you require. I prefer AlsoEnergy for numerous reasons, one being customized graphs. I download irradiance, ambient temperature, and wind speed for ASTM tests and various time intervals. Also includes calibration certificates stored in the platform so it's easy to download. They're flexible on what pyranometers you need (Class A, B, or C from various vendors), and can monitor some other items like a SEL 651R. However, Also is getting onto the pricier end and their front end proposal group is a bit of a mess right now. Their online platform is very powerful but I can see it be overwhelming for someone not familiar with it. I've seen a lot of companies move towards Green Power Monitoring and Qantum. GPM is very inexpensive and basic and easy to use. Their online platform is nowhere near as powerful as some of the others though, but if you want no frills monitoring, you can look here. Qantum is a lot more flexible in terms of equipment then GPM and their online platform is more powerful than GPM, but Qantum's platform is very, very slow and kind of clunky. I don't have pricing handy so i can't comment on Qantum's pricing. You can still get Locus, but since Locus is owned by AlsoEnergy, I recommend you just go with Also. All of them will give you pre-wired boxes so you just have to mount and hook up. > Friends: > > > > We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I am trying > to school myself on some of the aspects. Monitoring is the subject at > hand. > > > > One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online > platform. There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that looks > like it is simply an analytics service. > > > > Have I correctly categorized the above entities? Does anyone have > experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as to the > pros and cons of these services? Anyone have any documentation on the > hardware? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 12 13:40:08 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:40:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module Message-ID: I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. Vmp is 40.14V. It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. Thanks in advance, Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 14:03:35 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:03:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is a company called Genasun that I believe makes a boost solar charge controller to do this. They are in the marine world and I haven't poured over their specs but they are worth checking out. Try looking at Genasun GVB-8-Li Good Luck! On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 11:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. > Vmp is 40.14V. > > It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity > as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it > takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. > > It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC > solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to > accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly > thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms > of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - > I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring > might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter > be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon Apr 12 14:11:23 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:11:23 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I saw solar charge controller that boosts the voltage to allow a 60-cell module to charge a 48V nominal battery, like in a golf cart to Lithium conversion. I think it was a Genasun GVB-8PB-48V-WP. I’m guessing there is a 72-cell version. Thank you, Maverick > On Apr 12, 2021, at 12:43 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. Vmp is 40.14V. > > It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. > > It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Mon Apr 12 14:14:31 2021 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:14:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1068234080.674279.1618251271169@mail.yahoo.com> I second the Genasun product line. I've done a few golf cart charging systems. works like a charm.  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 On Monday, April 12, 2021, 12:03:52 PM MDT, Mac Lewis wrote: There is a company called Genasun that I believe makes a boost solar charge controller to do this.  They are in the marine world and I haven't poured over their specs but they are worth checking out.   Try looking at  Genasun GVB-8-Li Good Luck! On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 11:43 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. Vmp is 40.14V.  It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. Thanks in advance, Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Design Group_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Apr 12 14:22:50 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 11:22:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, Would a 96 cell Panasonic module fit in the space you have available? It would give you sufficient voltage to charge this battery. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 4/12/2021 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell > module. Vmp is 40.14V. > > It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery > capacity as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't > matter how long it takes to charge it back up. And I have space for > exactly one 72-cell module. > > It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC > solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to > accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was > half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that > has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any > worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably > be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be difficult/limited. And AC > coupling would require that the inverter be on (inverting) which isn't > ideal for this situation either. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 12 14:36:39 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:36:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I considered a 96-cell panel, but the highest watt panels don't compare to new 72-cell panels coming out in the 400+ watt range. It's a good fallback position because I might be losing more in the conversion than I am gaining in the higher power output. Jason Szumlanski On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:23 PM Kent Osterberg wrote: > Jason, > > Would a 96 cell Panasonic module fit in the space you have available? It > would give you sufficient voltage to charge this battery. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar > > On 4/12/2021 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. > Vmp is 40.14V. > > It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity > as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it > takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. > > It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC > solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to > accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly > thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms > of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - > I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring > might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter > be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 12 14:43:31 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:43:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like the Boost versions of the Genasun only go up to an 8A input current rating. However, they have a footnote on the spec sheet that reads: "*Panel ratings have increased since we designed the GVB. Although we don't believe in changing specifications without a corresponding engineering change, based on both our customers' experiences over the years as well as the headroom we designed into the GVB, we feel comfortable recommending the GVB for panels with Imp up to 9A." That won't work for a 420W module with an 11.05A Imp. Very good to know about this product, nonetheless. Thank you! Jason On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:03 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > There is a company called Genasun that I believe makes a boost solar > charge controller to do this. They are in the marine world and I haven't > poured over their specs but they are worth checking out. > > Try looking at > Genasun GVB-8-Li > Good Luck! > > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 11:43 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. >> Vmp is 40.14V. >> >> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity >> as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it >> takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. >> >> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC >> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to >> accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly >> thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms >> of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - >> I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring >> might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter >> be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Apr 12 16:13:23 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:13:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems In-Reply-To: References: <7c77a838e493272f15a95181a99ed4ca@mail.gmail.com> <2b4f09d7-0af5-b42e-a425-5eb8bc0d1127@berkeleysolar.com>, Message-ID: <0272906b81cea68f0630fcf2b5756cd3@mail.gmail.com> Thomas and wrenches: Thanks for your replies. This system has an Elkor WattsOn digitizer feeding an Alsoenergy PowerLogger 1000 encoder. There is an irradiation and module temperature sensors connected to an Adam 4019 data acquisition module someone disconnected and an ambient temperature sensor. The data from the AlsoEnergy feeds the PowerTrack web portal. PowerTrack is a pretty useful online interface, but the service may be overpriced considering you can get much of the same plus net metering from a properly installed and configured E-Gauge system without the monthly charges. It looks like the data from AlsoEnergy and the utility bill port into a service called VistaWatt that repackages this readily available data and regurgitates it in a slick format. This service is over $2,000 per year. >From what I can see, the Elkor data in the system we are working on at some point became exactly 50% if what it is supposed to be. There might have been a failure of a CT or something else. No one notified us of the failure. None of this reporting does any good unless someone is looking at it. I see the PowerTrack has alarms you can set up but I am not sure how to set up an alarm that says, “your production is low!” for a given period. Insolation varies, so unless you can tie electrical production to solar irradiation, this quality control check needs to be a manual task. To make sure we don’t miss any problems that crop up, I am going to suggest we train the facilities manager to open a production graph in the chosen online interface once per week and give it a quick visual inspection showing trends are consistent. I am thinking one could avoid the recurring fees with a home-brew approach and get comparable results. This would consist of an E-Gauge for solar production and a Control by Web data acquisition system to monitor meteorological data. We are already using Control by Web to drive the tracker so that is an easy transition. Couple the above with a weekly quick inspection of solar production and a quarterly review of the entire system, I think we can assure our client that they are getting the most out of their investment. Am I covering all of the necessities here? Thanks again, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Thomas Hall *Sent:* Saturday, April 10, 2021 10:59 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Monitoring large PV systems AlsoEnergy bought a company called Locus Energy, Locus NOC, and bought a company called Deck Monitoring. All good platforms. I have worked with both of those and they work well for commercial revenue grade monitoring and weather reporting equipment integration. Also Energy also bought Draker Labs. What device are you going to work with, or planning to work with William ? I have info on LGate products. Thomas Hall Solar Specialty Group Www.solarspecialtygroup.com Thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com 808-854-9539 NABCEP PV Installation Professional On Apr 10, 2021, at 7:02 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:  Wrenches Yes, fat spaniel was an early adaptor with lots of hardware Jerry On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 7:42 PM Mark Frye wrote: I do remember Fat Spaniel. I remember the day they came to our office to show us their product. It was an enclosure full of power strips, wall warts and wires going everywhere. Origins. On 4/10/2021 2:52 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches I have used many of the monitoring platforms, many of which are either out or bought out and consolidated. Anybody remember "Fat Spaniel" they were one of the first. We had sites with full motion cameras to string level monitoring. Now if its up to me I go simple with eguage, they have whats needed and have a better chance of being around in a few years. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 1:38 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: We are starting to work on larger grid-tied systems (500kW) and I am trying to school myself on some of the aspects. Monitoring is the subject at hand. One such system uses AlsoEnergy hardware on the PowerTrack online platform. There is also a VistaWatt service that is involved that looks like it is simply an analytics service. Have I correctly categorized the above entities? Does anyone have experience with any of the above that might offer some insight as to the pros and cons of these services? Anyone have any documentation on the hardware? Thanks in advance! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 16:58:44 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:58:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a Genasun 36 volt charger on my golf cart boosting from a Kyosera 245 panel (26.9vm 29 voc) on the roof of the cart. Works perfectly. I'm starting year 12 running this rig with solar only. I originally had 3 85 watt Sunwize panels on it and about 3 years ago I decided I didn't like the water dripping between the panels when it rained and had an orphan 245 so order the Genesun which lives under the seat next to the batteries. John Blittersdorf . On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 1:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. > Vmp is 40.14V. > > It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity > as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it > takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. > > It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC > solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to > accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly > thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms > of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - > I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring > might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter > be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 19:24:20 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:24:20 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging Message-ID: Hey wrenches, Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an EV, PV direct without batteries? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Apr 12 19:51:26 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:51:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011e01d72ff6$c1a07e20$44e17a60$@solarwork.com> SolarEdge Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging Hey wrenches, Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an EV, PV direct without batteries? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 19:55:39 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:55:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging In-Reply-To: <011e01d72ff6$c1a07e20$44e17a60$@solarwork.com> References: <011e01d72ff6$c1a07e20$44e17a60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I should have clarified, I am interested in EV charging with no grid available. I think that Solaredge requires a grid On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 5:51 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > SolarEdge > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging > > > > Hey wrenches, > > > > Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an EV, PV direct > without batteries? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Apr 12 20:01:59 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:01:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging In-Reply-To: References: <011e01d72ff6$c1a07e20$44e17a60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <012f01d72ff8$3a659650$af30c2f0$@solarwork.com> I just kind of ran into this issue a client wanted to charge a Tesla at night but the Tesla battery is 3.5 times larger what the than the house needed. The cost of nighttime charging shut the project down. You can operate a car charger off a 240 volt inverter at either 120 or 240 volt. The 120 volt takes a lot longer. Depends on your needs. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:56 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging Sorry, I should have clarified, I am interested in EV charging with no grid available. I think that Solaredge requires a grid On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 5:51 PM Dana Orzel > wrote: SolarEdge Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging Hey wrenches, Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an EV, PV direct without batteries? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at getpimby.com Mon Apr 12 20:05:22 2021 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 20:05:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging In-Reply-To: References: <011e01d72ff6$c1a07e20$44e17a60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Mac, Our car gobbles 11,500W when it's plugged in to the grid. Even if we reduced the charge rate it would still be a heck of a draw - the chargers in the EVs are greedy. I'll be curious to hear if anyone has a solution, but my bet is that you need to give the EV a deep well to pull from (probably deeper than a battery bank or PV array can directly and consistently satisfy). -Matt On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 7:55 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Sorry, I should have clarified, I am interested in EV charging with no > grid available. I think that Solaredge requires a grid > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 5:51 PM Dana Orzel wrote: > >> SolarEdge >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> >> *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >> * >> >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com >> >> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * >> >> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Mac Lewis >> *Sent:* Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging >> >> >> >> Hey wrenches, >> >> >> >> Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an EV, PV >> direct without batteries? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Mon Apr 12 21:38:12 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:38:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0383D635-C6C4-48AD-93EB-4682A54203C8@me.com> Jason, Mack, Maverick, Kent and John, Looks like the Genasun absorb set points are 57.6 right? Were you still needing this for a LiFePO4 battery option Jason? Maybe they offer a different voltage setpoint option I’m not seeing? I’ve needed something like this for a couple applications as well. Even if something like this existed to boost output voltage before going into a larger controller like an FM60 or Midnite option. At least with today’s newer 60 cell modules we can put a couple in series and Vmpp will still be high enough to hit absorb set points for lithium options even after heating up. A luxury we didn’t have in the past with FLA and periodic requirements for EQ’ing. I know two 60 cell modules is much more footprint than a single but at least we have that. Enjoy your night, Nick > On Apr 12, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. Vmp is 40.14V. > > It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. > > It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Apr 12 22:27:00 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:27:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: <0383D635-C6C4-48AD-93EB-4682A54203C8@me.com> References: <0383D635-C6C4-48AD-93EB-4682A54203C8@me.com> Message-ID: That's what I was thinking. Not a MPPT controller... Just a "dumb" booster that put the voltage high enough for any off the shelf MPPT controller. But it can't really work like that. The MPPT function need to be at the lower voltage side of the device I think. On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:38 PM Nick A Lucchese wrote: > Jason, Mack, Maverick, Kent and John, > > Looks like the Genasun absorb set points are 57.6 right? Were you still > needing this for a LiFePO4 battery option Jason? Maybe they offer a > different voltage setpoint option I’m not seeing? I’ve needed something > like this for a couple applications as well. Even if something like this > existed to boost output voltage before going into a larger controller like > an FM60 or Midnite option. > > At least with today’s newer 60 cell modules we can put a couple in series > and Vmpp will still be high enough to hit absorb set points for lithium > options even after heating up. A luxury we didn’t have in the past with FLA > and periodic requirements for EQ’ing. I know two 60 cell modules is much > more footprint than a single but at least we have that. > > Enjoy your night, Nick > > On Apr 12, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. > Vmp is 40.14V. > > It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity > as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it > takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. > > It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC > solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to > accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly > thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms > of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - > I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring > might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter > be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. > > Thanks in advance, > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Mon Apr 12 23:46:40 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent Osterberg) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 20:46:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: <0383D635-C6C4-48AD-93EB-4682A54203C8@me.com> Message-ID: Genasun is a very interesting option and it looks like they also have a charge controller set for 54.2 volts which is probably the right charge voltage, but it is only rated for a PV max power point current of 8 amps (maybe 9). Ten amps from a 420 W solar panel might be pushing it too hard, certainly beyond its specs. Most "dumb" voltage converters operate around 85% efficiency. If taking that much loss, it would be better to use a lower power, higher voltage PV module with a common MPPT controller. That is one less part to fail too. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 4/12/2021 7:27 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > That's what I was thinking. Not a MPPT controller... Just a "dumb" > booster that put the voltage high enough for any off the shelf MPPT > controller. But it can't really work like that. The MPPT function need > to be at the lower voltage side of the device I think. > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:38 PM Nick A Lucchese > wrote: > > Jason, Mack, Maverick, Kent and John, > > Looks like the Genasun absorb set points are 57.6 right? Were you > still needing this for a LiFePO4 battery option Jason? Maybe they > offer a different voltage setpoint option I’m not seeing? I’ve > needed something like this for a couple applications as well. Even > if something like this existed to boost output voltage before > going into a larger controller like an FM60 or Midnite option. > > At least with today’s newer 60 cell modules we can put a couple in > series and Vmpp will still be high enough to hit absorb set points > for lithium options even after heating up. A luxury we didn’t have > in the past with FLA and periodic requirements for EQ’ing. I know > two 60 cell modules is much more footprint than a single but at > least we have that. > > Enjoy your night, Nick > >> On Apr 12, 2021, at 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell >> module. Vmp is 40.14V. >> >> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery >> capacity as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't >> matter how long it takes to charge it back up. And I have space >> for exactly one 72-cell module. >> >> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a >> DC-DC solution for this charging scenario or if there is another >> way to accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was >> half-heartedly thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but >> that has drawbacks in terms of efficiency I think. Maybe that's >> not any worse than DC-DC conversion - I'm not sure. AC Coupling >> would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring might be >> difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the >> inverter be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation >> either. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 01:11:45 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:11:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Here is just a thought, each module is either 2, 3 or some with 4 strings within a single module, so you open the junction box remove the diodes and cut the buss jumpers, reconfigure the box to a single longer string to multiply the voltage and equally divide the amperage. you will need to keep the new VOC and VMP within the usable range of the charge controller. Of course this will void any warranty of the module, also be aware of higher voltage when exposed to sunlight. In the past I was involved in military grade manufacturing of foldable modules designed specifically for systems with no charge controller but this is a down and dirty solution. Just a thought I On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 1:52 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I considered a 96-cell panel, but the highest watt panels don't compare to > new 72-cell panels coming out in the 400+ watt range. It's a good fallback > position because I might be losing more in the conversion than I am gaining > in the higher power output. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:23 PM Kent Osterberg > wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> Would a 96 cell Panasonic module fit in the space you have available? It >> would give you sufficient voltage to charge this battery. >> >> Kent Osterberg >> Blue Mountain Solar >> >> On 4/12/2021 10:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> >> I want to charge a 51.2V LiPO battery with a single 420W 72-cell module. >> Vmp is 40.14V. >> >> It's one of those situations where I just need a lot of battery capacity >> as a backup for a specified time period, but it doesn't matter how long it >> takes to charge it back up. And I have space for exactly one 72-cell module. >> >> It's going to be a Victron inverter. I'm not sure if they make a DC-DC >> solution for this charging scenario or if there is another way to >> accomplish it without too much cost and complexity. I was half-heartedly >> thinking about an AC coupled microinverter, but that has drawbacks in terms >> of efficiency I think. Maybe that's not any worse than DC-DC conversion - >> I'm not sure. AC Coupling would probably be cheaper and easier. Monitoring >> might be difficult/limited. And AC coupling would require that the inverter >> be on (inverting) which isn't ideal for this situation either. >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at sunforgellc.com Tue Apr 13 13:13:11 2021 From: alex at sunforgellc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 10:13:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: <0383D635-C6C4-48AD-93EB-4682A54203C8@me.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, et al., Applications in our size range don't come up too often on this list, so I've been mostly an appreciative lurker, but I'd like to introduce myself as the contact for Genasun and Blue Sky Energy, (and the engineer behind the GVB-8 controller in question). To address a few of the questions that have been asked, the GVB-8 can be programmed at the factory with any custom charge profile desired if none of the off-the-shelf options are a good match. Efficiency at ~48V nominal is >98% over most of the power range, and the controllers employ true MPPT, so no configuration is necessary for different panels. As mentioned, 10A Imp input is on the high side for the GVB. Most Genasun controllers were designed when PV was expensive and panels were smaller. Although they do have current limits and thermal rollback for self-protection, running continuously at the standard current limit would be hard on the electronics. Panels have grown, and there is more interest in PV-heavy installations. As we redesign and re-qualify our controllers, we have developed a few workarounds. The GVB-8 can be ordered with the LOWCURLIM (low current limit) firmware option, which limits the input current to about the rated 8A, allowing use with oversize panels, such as the 420W panel in question. Separately, thank you all for the expertise you share on this list. I've learned a lot about installation and code issues for small (and large) solar, and it's given me a great appreciation for the challenges you face trying to integrate all the various pieces of equipment to give your customers a good experience. Regards, Alex MeVay Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Apr 13 14:46:15 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:46:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging 48V Battery with One Module In-Reply-To: References: <0383D635-C6C4-48AD-93EB-4682A54203C8@me.com> Message-ID: <54E8A5F9-5EB8-4D07-9080-EA51B95FEA84@starlightsolar.com> We have used a few of the Genasun up converters on 48V golf carts. They have worked flawlessly. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 13, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Alex MeVay wrote: Hi Jason, et al., Applications in our size range don't come up too often on this list, so I've been mostly an appreciative lurker, but I'd like to introduce myself as the contact for Genasun and Blue Sky Energy, (and the engineer behind the GVB-8 controller in question). To address a few of the questions that have been asked, the GVB-8 can be programmed at the factory with any custom charge profile desired if none of the off-the-shelf options are a good match. Efficiency at ~48V nominal is >98% over most of the power range, and the controllers employ true MPPT, so no configuration is necessary for different panels. As mentioned, 10A Imp input is on the high side for the GVB. Most Genasun controllers were designed when PV was expensive and panels were smaller. Although they do have current limits and thermal rollback for self-protection, running continuously at the standard current limit would be hard on the electronics. Panels have grown, and there is more interest in PV-heavy installations. As we redesign and re-qualify our controllers, we have developed a few workarounds. The GVB-8 can be ordered with the LOWCURLIM (low current limit) firmware option, which limits the input current to about the rated 8A, allowing use with oversize panels, such as the 420W panel in question. Separately, thank you all for the expertise you share on this list. I've learned a lot about installation and code issues for small (and large) solar, and it's given me a great appreciation for the challenges you face trying to integrate all the various pieces of equipment to give your customers a good experience. Regards, Alex MeVay Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Tue Apr 13 16:29:35 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 13:29:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging In-Reply-To: References: <011e01d72ff6$c1a07e20$44e17a60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Mac, You can charge with DC directly from a PV solar array without an inverter or regulator. The current is self limiting by the amount of PV solar power you are making at any moment. The magic is knowing know how to trigger the charge port communications so your EV controller knows that there is a safe connection to a DC power source. Perhaps the will get you started: https://www.evcreate.nl/chademo-fast-charging-in-diy/ Be safe when working with 500Vdc. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Apr 12, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Matt Sherald wrote: Mac, Our car gobbles 11,500W when it's plugged in to the grid. Even if we reduced the charge rate it would still be a heck of a draw - the chargers in the EVs are greedy. I'll be curious to hear if anyone has a solution, but my bet is that you need to give the EV a deep well to pull from (probably deeper than a battery bank or PV array can directly and consistently satisfy). -Matt On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 7:55 PM Mac Lewis > wrote: Sorry, I should have clarified, I am interested in EV charging with no grid available. I think that Solaredge requires a grid On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 5:51 PM Dana Orzel > wrote: SolarEdge Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging Hey wrenches, Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an EV, PV direct without batteries? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 13 16:43:17 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:43:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging In-Reply-To: References: <011e01d72ff6$c1a07e20$44e17a60$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <782a6931-525f-ed69-bfbe-9c1af145e924@solarray.com> We've done some off grid EV charging, and one thing that makes life much easier, is to go to the lower power chargers.  So far, we've just done PV to battery inverter to AC charger to car.  less efficient, but less trouble.  We've also setup dedicated charging outlets/ circuits on relays to prioritize the house battery. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/13/21 4:29 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > Mac, > > You can charge with DC directly from a PV solar array without an > inverter or regulator. The current is self limiting by the amount of > PV solar power you are making at any moment. > > The magic is knowing know how to trigger the charge port > communications so your EV controller knows that there is a safe > connection to a DC power source. Perhaps the will get you started: > https://www.evcreate.nl/chademo-fast-charging-in-diy/ > > > Be safe when working with 500Vdc. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Apr 12, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Matt Sherald > wrote: > > Mac, > > Our car gobbles 11,500W when it's plugged in to the grid.  Even if we > reduced the charge rate it would still be a heck of a draw - the > chargers in the EVs are greedy.  I'll be curious to hear if anyone has > a solution, but my bet is that you need to give the EV a deep well to > pull from (probably deeper than a battery bank or PV array can > directly and consistently satisfy). > > -Matt > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 7:55 PM Mac Lewis > wrote: > > Sorry, I should have clarified, I am interested in EV charging > with no grid available.  I think that Solaredge requires a grid > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 5:51 PM Dana Orzel > wrote: > > SolarEdge > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf > Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging > > Hey wrenches, > > Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an > EV,  PV direct without batteries? > > Thanks in advance > > > -- > > Mac Lewis** > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates*** > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Matt Sherald > PIMBY Energy, LLC > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > 304-704-5943 > > www.getpimby.blogspot.com > www.getpimby.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Tue Apr 13 16:59:31 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:59:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging In-Reply-To: <782a6931-525f-ed69-bfbe-9c1af145e924@solarray.com> References: <782a6931-525f-ed69-bfbe-9c1af145e924@solarray.com> Message-ID: There’s this company. I don’t have any experience with their products but the concept is promising. http://cyboenergy.com/ rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Apr 13, 2021, at 4:44 PM, Ray wrote: > >  > We've done some off grid EV charging, and one thing that makes life much easier, is to go to the lower power chargers. So far, we've just done PV to battery inverter to AC charger to car. less efficient, but less trouble. We've also setup dedicated charging outlets/ circuits on relays to prioritize the house battery. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 4/13/21 4:29 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: >> Mac, >> >> You can charge with DC directly from a PV solar array without an inverter or regulator. The current is self limiting by the amount of PV solar power you are making at any moment. >> >> The magic is knowing know how to trigger the charge port communications so your EV controller knows that there is a safe connection to a DC power source. Perhaps the will get you started: >> https://www.evcreate.nl/chademo-fast-charging-in-diy/ >> >> Be safe when working with 500Vdc. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 12, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Matt Sherald wrote: >> >> Mac, >> >> Our car gobbles 11,500W when it's plugged in to the grid. Even if we reduced the charge rate it would still be a heck of a draw - the chargers in the EVs are greedy. I'll be curious to hear if anyone has a solution, but my bet is that you need to give the EV a deep well to pull from (probably deeper than a battery bank or PV array can directly and consistently satisfy). >> >> -Matt >> >> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 7:55 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >>> Sorry, I should have clarified, I am interested in EV charging with no grid available. I think that Solaredge requires a grid >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 5:51 PM Dana Orzel wrote: >>>> SolarEdge >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> >>>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>>> >>>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>>> >>>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com >>>> >>>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>>> >>>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis >>>> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hey wrenches, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an EV, PV direct without batteries? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mac Lewis >>>> >>>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Matt Sherald >> PIMBY Energy, LLC >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >> 304-704-5943 >> >> www.getpimby.blogspot.com >> www.getpimby.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at mountainpowersolutions.com Wed Apr 14 07:23:19 2021 From: steve at mountainpowersolutions.com (Steve Romo) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 05:23:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, I have a customer with a very old (1995) Xantrex SW4024. He is trying to connect the two wire start to his generator. This unit has two sets of terminal blocks instead of the relay spade connectors I'm used to. Does anyone know or have an old manual that shows which ones to use? I know if I was on site I could just use my meter and figure it out, but it's a 3 hour drive. Thanks in advance for your help -- Steve Romo Mountain Power Solutions LLC NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 Kohler Certified Generator Technician Generac Certified Generator Technician 970-433-6316 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Apr 14 08:45:21 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:45:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E211D44-74DA-4A6F-B3AF-BCE86BA7BDE2@swnl.net> If the terminal blocks have #s then he would use block #7 and use the com. & NO contacts. 3 terminals; com, NO & NC > On Apr 14, 2021, at 7:23 AM, Steve Romo wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > I have a customer with a very old (1995) Xantrex SW4024. He is trying to connect the two wire start to his generator. This unit has two sets of terminal blocks instead of the relay spade connectors I'm used to. Does anyone know or have an old manual that shows which ones to use? I know if I was on site I could just use my meter and figure it out, but it's a 3 hour drive. > > Thanks in advance for your help > > -- > Steve Romo > Mountain Power Solutions LLC > NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 > Kohler Certified Generator Technician > Generac Certified Generator Technician > > 970-433-6316 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Apr 14 08:50:39 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 12:50:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, I think this is what you’re looking for. Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Steve Romo Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 7:23 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 Hello Wrenches, I have a customer with a very old (1995) Xantrex SW4024. He is trying to connect the two wire start to his generator. This unit has two sets of terminal blocks instead of the relay spade connectors I'm used to. Does anyone know or have an old manual that shows which ones to use? I know if I was on site I could just use my meter and figure it out, but it's a 3 hour drive. Thanks in advance for your help -- Steve Romo Mountain Power Solutions LLC NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 Kohler Certified Generator Technician Generac Certified Generator Technician 970-433-6316 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SW4024 connections.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 363930 bytes Desc: SW4024 connections.pdf URL: From steve at mountainpowersolutions.com Wed Apr 14 09:30:45 2021 From: steve at mountainpowersolutions.com (Steve Romo) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 07:30:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Lloyd, that is exactly what I needed On Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 6:50 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter < lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > Steve, > > > > I think this is what you’re looking for. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > > Sunstruck Consulting > > > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Steve Romo > *Sent: *Wednesday, April 14, 2021 7:23 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] SW4024 > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > I have a customer with a very old (1995) Xantrex SW4024. He is trying to > connect the two wire start to his generator. This unit has two sets of > terminal blocks instead of the relay spade connectors I'm used to. Does > anyone know or have an old manual that shows which ones to use? I know if I > was on site I could just use my meter and figure it out, but it's a 3 hour > drive. > > > > Thanks in advance for your help > > > > -- > > Steve Romo > > Mountain Power Solutions LLC > NABCEP certified PV Installer #110112-124 > Kohler Certified Generator Technician > Generac Certified Generator Technician > > 970-433-6316 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Apr 14 13:02:32 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 10:02:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging In-Reply-To: References: <782a6931-525f-ed69-bfbe-9c1af145e924@solarray.com> Message-ID: <287D9AB8-845C-484C-BB7C-40D3CEE9A14F@me.com> I have two of the inverters from Cyboenergy that I purchased about 6 years back. The off grid N model works fairly well with medium to large loads but will not run to operate things like Makita battery chargers or other small electronics unless another base load like a fan is added. It definitely never operated in the manner by running it’s own battery charger that they sold and marketed. I believe the newer unit accepts higher PV voltage now as well as the ability to operate with 48v nominal battery banks while initially it was only 36v. Overall I concluded the only application for it was to run something simple like a large AC fan. The hot water heater model never worked for me either and all I ever got from them was excuses. It’s possible these products have evolved and improved but at the time it seemed like the founder was over burdened since he was also the one providing tech support. At $1100 each it was an expensive experiment much like the Heart Transverter I purchased in that same time frame. Both were hard lessons on trying to support the little guy. Seems like the Phocos Anygrid would be a better option if going down that road. I’ve been wanting to purchase one for awhile now but have no experience with it yet although I’ve been impressed with Phocos products in the past. Nick > On Apr 13, 2021, at 1:59 PM, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: > > There’s this company. I don’t have any experience with their products but the concept is promising. > > http://cyboenergy.com/ > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > >> On Apr 13, 2021, at 4:44 PM, Ray wrote: >> >>  >> We've done some off grid EV charging, and one thing that makes life much easier, is to go to the lower power chargers. So far, we've just done PV to battery inverter to AC charger to car. less efficient, but less trouble. We've also setup dedicated charging outlets/ circuits on relays to prioritize the house battery. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> On 4/13/21 4:29 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: >>> Mac, >>> >>> You can charge with DC directly from a PV solar array without an inverter or regulator. The current is self limiting by the amount of PV solar power you are making at any moment. >>> >>> The magic is knowing know how to trigger the charge port communications so your EV controller knows that there is a safe connection to a DC power source. Perhaps the will get you started: >>> https://www.evcreate.nl/chademo-fast-charging-in-diy/ >>> >>> Be safe when working with 500Vdc. >>> >>> Larry Crutcher >>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 12, 2021, at 5:05 PM, Matt Sherald > wrote: >>> >>> Mac, >>> >>> Our car gobbles 11,500W when it's plugged in to the grid. Even if we reduced the charge rate it would still be a heck of a draw - the chargers in the EVs are greedy. I'll be curious to hear if anyone has a solution, but my bet is that you need to give the EV a deep well to pull from (probably deeper than a battery bank or PV array can directly and consistently satisfy). >>> >>> -Matt >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 7:55 PM Mac Lewis > wrote: >>> Sorry, I should have clarified, I am interested in EV charging with no grid available. I think that Solaredge requires a grid >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 5:51 PM Dana Orzel > wrote: >>> SolarEdge >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> >>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >>> >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>> >>> P Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Mac Lewis >>> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 5:24 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches > >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV direct EV charging >>> >>> >>> Hey wrenches, >>> >>> >>> Are there any purpose built inverters designed to charge an EV, PV direct without batteries? >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Matt Sherald >>> PIMBY Energy, LLC >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >>> 304-704-5943 >>> >>> www.getpimby.blogspot.com >>> www.getpimby.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Apr 16 11:13:20 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:13:20 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation Message-ID: Hello all, I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand.  If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Fri Apr 16 12:10:59 2021 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 16:10:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They used to advocate 7.9kW AC/DC per Powerwall. That number may have gone down recently. Coupling an inverter on the line side of the backup gateway will resolve your issue of meeting homeowner demand. Tesla will want you to add a CT to that inverter to ensure it does not mess up their monitoring system, though that may already be incorrectly configured and not monitoring the whole home if the system is backup only. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 859-312-7456 (Office) 877-312-7456 (General) matt at sesre.com Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com [cid:image006.png at 01D732B9.8EFAAB10] [cid:image007.png at 01D732B9.8EFAAB10] [cid:image008.png at 01D732B9.8EFAAB10] [cid:image009.png at 01D732B9.8EFAAB10] [cid:image010.png at 01D732B9.8EFAAB10] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 11:13 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation Hello all, I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand. If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 4219 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 3646 bytes Desc: image007.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 5367 bytes Desc: image008.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.png Type: image/png Size: 3137 bytes Desc: image009.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 3114 bytes Desc: image010.png URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Apr 16 16:28:25 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 16:28:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging multiple battery banks from one array Message-ID: Hi All, I am adding solar to a boat, which is new for me. There are three batteries: one for each of two engines (both of which can also power DC loads), and a house battery connected to an inverter for AC loads on the boat. All three batteries are able to get charged from the two engine alternators through a Sure Power Multi Battery Isolator. We are going to have 4 320w panels and two FM60 charge controllers. It is a 12V system. I would like to be able to use the solar to charge all three batteries. Is it reasonable to use something like another one of those Multi Battery Isolators to allow all the solar to independently charge each battery? Is there another product out there that people would recommend for this? Thanks for the help! Cheers, Dave -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at sunforgellc.com Fri Apr 16 16:51:47 2021 From: alex at sunforgellc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:51:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging multiple battery banks from one array In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've had good luck personally with the Blue Sea ACR. It's automatic and solenoid-based, so while there's some parasitic draw, there's essentially no voltage drop. (The "Sure Power Multi Battery Isolator" seems to be diode based.) They are also bidirectional. If you'd like, it sounds like you could ditch the isolator, connect the solar to the house bank, use one ACR between each start battery and house battery, and have everything be able to charge everything. This also avoids the potential issues of either trying to make a solar charge controller run through diodes to the battery (though some of ours will, I don't think it's the preferred situation for any MFG), or dealing with differing charge voltages due to isolator diode voltage drops. I believe Blue Sea also makes a newer version with an emergency parallel function, which is regrettably absent on mine. I'm a fan of Blue Sea...my one beef is that, since many of their products are rebranded from other manufacturers, there is no consistency to stud sizes or even nut dimensions, necessitating a way bigger pile of sockets and terminals, and more planning than might otherwise be necessary to get a job done. Alex MeVay Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com Alex MeVay Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 1:28 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > I am adding solar to a boat, which is new for me. There are three batteries: one for each of two engines (both of which can also power DC loads), and a house battery connected to an inverter for AC loads on the boat. All three batteries are able to get charged from the two engine alternators through a Sure Power Multi Battery Isolator. We are going to have 4 320w panels and two FM60 charge controllers. It is a 12V system. > > I would like to be able to use the solar to charge all three batteries. Is it reasonable to use something like another one of those Multi Battery Isolators to allow all the solar to independently charge each battery? Is there another product out there that people would recommend for this? > > Thanks for the help! > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > Dave Tedeyan, PE > > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 20:00:57 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 18:00:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lightning arrestor Message-ID: <89C87758-A46A-41C0-90D3-E0BAE4202C6E@gmail.com> What do folks recommend for 1000vdc 2 circuit 12 amp lightning arrestors? I would like it to fit onto DIN rail inside a Fronius 10kw. Thanks Jay Peltz Power From vincentj at cobaltpower.com Fri Apr 16 23:54:05 2021 From: vincentj at cobaltpower.com (Vincent Jolissaint) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 20:54:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirk, the maximum actual charge rate is 5kW per Powerwall. When you exceed that, or start getting full batteries, the Gateway tells the Powerwalls to frequency shift to 62-66 Hz. This takes the UL 1741 listed inverters out of the sweet spot, and they stop or curtail production. However, predictably other sensitive electronics don't love being at 66 Hz. The newer inverters with more advanced grid profiles are able to partially curtail production based on slight variations in frequency. Older SMA are unlikely to be compliant, so behavior of those will be PV production on or off. This can especially be a problem when cold starting batteries, older inverters may overload the ability of a morning cold battery to even take a charge. In those situations you will get absolutely no PV production until the batteries are warm enough to take the full charge. It can be devastating for a winter day where you may get only 3 hours of good production. If you add PV to the backup side, it will need to run through a new or existing CT dedicated to PV production. If you put the new PV in the service panel you should put a new PV production CT around it, but you wouldn't have to depending on the current CT configuration. It would not produce during a grid outage. If you don't add the PV Production CT, the Powerwalls cannot use that PV to charge or see it in the app. If you have to land the new PV breaker on the non-backup side, but still in a location metered by the whole home consumption CTs, you will need PV production CTs. Also if there is a discrete "generation" and "essential loads" panel, the generation panel can have a maximum of 200A of generation pass through the gateway, as it is a 200A device. *With Regard,* *Vince Jolissaint* *Cobalt Power Systems Inc. |* *Director of CAD Services*2557 Wyandotte St. | Mountain View CA 94043 Office: 650.938.9574 | E-Mail Vincentj at cobaltpower.com > Hello all, > I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new > to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it > presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it > through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm > wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can > regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. > What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce > the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand.? > If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to > the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid > goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. > > > Kirk Herander /?kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 16 21:46:22 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 21:46:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the limit is now stated as 7.6kw if memory serves me right. Jason On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:11 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: > They used to advocate 7.9kW AC/DC per Powerwall. That number may have > gone down recently. Coupling an inverter on the line side of the backup > gateway will resolve your issue of meeting homeowner demand. Tesla will > want you to add a CT to that inverter to ensure it does not mess up their > monitoring system, though that may already be incorrectly configured and > not monitoring the whole home if the system is backup only. > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > Matt Partymiller > > General Manager > > Solar Energy Solutions, LLC > > Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | > Indianapolis > > 859-312-7456 (Office) > > 877-312-7456 (General) > matt at sesre.com > > > > Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com > > > > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander, VSE > *Sent:* Friday, April 16, 2021 11:13 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation > > > > Hello all, > > I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new > to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it > presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it > through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm > wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can > regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. > What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce > the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand. > > If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to > the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid > goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. > > > > *Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 4219 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat Apr 17 14:13:01 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 11:13:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Zero tilr Single axis tracking Message-ID: <3a1f6e5f191596cdd1641de02b96433b@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have been repairing the tracking control for a medium-scale industrial PV system. I think I have my head around the correlation between the sun path year-round and the mechanics required to track this, but I’d like to find someone to bounce my ideas off of. Please reply to me off-list if you have experience with this subject and you don’t mind sharing your experience. Thanks in advance… William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Apr 17 19:56:27 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 19:56:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007f01d733e5$496f3070$dc4d9150$@glbcc.com> The manuals I have say 7.6kW(AC) per PW2 Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 9:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation I think the limit is now stated as 7.6kw if memory serves me right. Jason On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:11 PM Matt Partymiller > wrote: They used to advocate 7.9kW AC/DC per Powerwall. That number may have gone down recently. Coupling an inverter on the line side of the backup gateway will resolve your issue of meeting homeowner demand. Tesla will want you to add a CT to that inverter to ensure it does not mess up their monitoring system, though that may already be incorrectly configured and not monitoring the whole home if the system is backup only. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 859-312-7456 (Office) 877-312-7456 (General) matt at sesre.com Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 11:13 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation Hello all, I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand. If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 17 20:48:44 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 19:48:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I hope this helps. I have very little PW experience, the one i was involved in had a 1741 transfer switch with grid monitoring on the mains. When the grid failed the switch would disconnect from the Grid and connect the PW to the panel or sub-panel. The PW charges from the AC source when it is fully charged it stops acting like a load, maybe the maximum load it acts like is 7.5 kW when charging but the minimum is 0. I would think three could charge at 3x 7.5 kW or 22.5 kW down to 0 when fully charged. However, the game changes when it comes to discharging. The PWs all have to be authorized to follow the direction of the 1741 monitoring and all have to be coordinated combining to serve the load.. I don't know how this works in practice. There are people with several PWs working in parallel. (maybe these are later models) On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 10:38 AM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > Hello all, > I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new > to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it > presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it > through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm > wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can > regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. > What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce > the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand. > If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to > the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid > goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 13:14:42 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 10:14:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches This customer with an orphan PW, not to compromise the factory warranty on the batteries, it would be safest to just grid tie any additional PV and not touch the existing system from the gateway down. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 8:38 AM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > Hello all, > I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new > to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it > presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it > through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm > wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can > regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. > What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce > the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand. > If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to > the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid > goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bchurchill at energy-1.net Sat Apr 17 23:03:41 2021 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 03:03:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can just land the new PV to the same "generation" panel that already hosts the 3 Powerwalls and existing PV inverter output breakers. There should be no loads on this panel. The Powerwall AC coupled solar limit is 7.5 KW AC per Powerwall, note AC not DC. The DC rating is irrelevant here. If the combined PV AC inverter output is less than 22.5 kW the system will work fine. Tesla does have a list of approved PV inverters but unless you're looking to connect something over 3 years old it should be fine. [cid:f7580fd8-6285-4e79-9ad8-512cb4416200]Barton Churchill Director, Power Division 2042 Stadium Drive Suite 2 • Bozeman, MT 59715 • (O) 406-587-2917 • (D) 406-589-4493 235 E. Broadway • Jackson, WY 83001 • (O) 307-200-2210 bchurchill at energy-1.net | www.energy-1.net ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 9:13 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation Hello all, I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand. If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-fj0ah4gy.png Type: image/png Size: 7692 bytes Desc: Outlook-fj0ah4gy.png URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 14:53:26 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:53:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keep in mind that 7.5kW is max charge/discharge for 10 sec...it is NOT the continuous rate. This comes into play in the following scenario: Let’s say a single Powerwall 2 is at 50% SOC and there is a utility outage on a sunny day. The inverter is outputting 7kW AC and loads in the house are below 2kW. The Powerwall will force the PV inverter to turn off via frequency shift and the inverter sit in a holding pattern, trying to reconnect every 5 minutes. If PV continues to be above 5 kW, then it will be turned off until the battery shuts off at its designated cut off %. Not an ideal scenario. This is why I like to use 5kW of PV per Powerwall as a general rule, to avoid this worst case scenario. Best, Chris On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 1:53 PM Barton Churchill wrote: > You can just land the new PV to the same "generation" panel that already > hosts the 3 Powerwalls and existing PV inverter output breakers. There > should be no loads on this panel. The Powerwall AC coupled solar limit is > 7.5 KW AC per Powerwall, note AC not DC. The DC rating is irrelevant here. > If the combined PV AC inverter output is less than 22.5 kW the system will > work fine. Tesla does have a list of approved PV inverters but unless > you're looking to connect something over 3 years old it should be fine. > > *Barton Churchill* > *Director, Power Division* > 2042 Stadium Drive Suite 2 • Bozeman, MT 59715 > > • (O) 406-587-2917 • (D) 406-589-4493 > 235 E. Broadway • Jackson, WY 83001 • (O) 307-200-2210 > bchurchill at energy-1.net | www.energy-1.net > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Kirk Herander, VSE > *Sent:* Friday, April 16, 2021 9:13 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation > > Hello all, > I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all new > to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it > presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it > through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm > wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can > regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. > What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce > the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand. > If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to > the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid > goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Outlook-fj0ah4gy.png Type: image/png Size: 7692 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 19:15:03 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:15:03 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Regarding 3 Power Walls PWs, more solar modules, and inverters. I hope this is helpful, I am always going to first principles. You did not mention what the customer expectations are. I see three common possibilities, 1) For backup power, in which case you need generation control, such as the AC Diversion control that Magnum solar used to make, or the frequency shift of the master PW shutting down the inverters. I have no idea how the PWs synchronize. Depending upon the model and age of the inverters they will back down until they shut off by frequency shift. >From full power to shutoff is about 0.6 Hz. If the inverters do not have frequency shift power correction the inverters will shut down. Then stay down for 5 min until time to restart. 2) TOU or TOD (time of day energy pricing) with and without full net metering. The grid is connected the solar inverter can export when the battery is full. When the solar is insufficient the gateway programming directs the PWs to carry enough of the load to prevent power import. excessive charges. If you have two different pricing a study by Egauge or similar should be done to full fill the highest cost energy needs. This study should reveal the lowest price period and the amount of off-peak energy to buy. If you have data from the SMA or Egauge as to the past records you can modify your program using the probability of sun. 3) No export, this is similar to backup power except the grid provides synchronization and the inverters must have non-frequency power limitation. This is very tricky. . not sufficient power is On Sat, Apr 17, 2021 at 2:26 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I think the limit is now stated as 7.6kw if memory serves me right. > > Jason > > On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 12:11 PM Matt Partymiller wrote: > >> They used to advocate 7.9kW AC/DC per Powerwall. That number may have >> gone down recently. Coupling an inverter on the line side of the backup >> gateway will resolve your issue of meeting homeowner demand. Tesla will >> want you to add a CT to that inverter to ensure it does not mess up their >> monitoring system, though that may already be incorrectly configured and >> not monitoring the whole home if the system is backup only. >> >> >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Matt Partymiller >> >> General Manager >> >> Solar Energy Solutions, LLC >> >> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | >> Indianapolis >> >> 859-312-7456 (Office) >> >> 877-312-7456 (General) >> matt at sesre.com >> >> >> >> Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches *On >> Behalf Of *Kirk Herander, VSE >> *Sent:* Friday, April 16, 2021 11:13 AM >> *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Powerwall 2 AC PV regulation >> >> >> >> Hello all, >> >> I am adding more PV to an orphaned Powerwall 2 AC system (which is all >> new to me), -3- PW's stacked to total about 40kwh of usable storage. it >> presently has about 13kw of PV, though -2- SMA inverters, feeding into it >> through a common subpanel between the PW gateway and the main panel. I'm >> wondering if there is a limit to the amount of PV the powerwall can >> regulate/backoff (or use for battery charging) during a utility outage. >> What is the max PW charge rate? I need to add about 10 kw of PV to produce >> the owners goal of 100% coverage of electrical demand. >> >> If necessary for safety, i assume the extra pv inverter can be routed to >> the main panel, and then won't participate in battery charging if the grid >> goes down. Am I correct? Thanks. The PW manuals are of little use here. >> >> >> >> *Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* >> >> *www.vermont.solar* >> >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Mon Apr 19 14:28:45 2021 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:28:45 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FXR3048A and Pentair SuperFlo Variable Speed pool pump Message-ID: Hello All, I have a client with a off-grid 48V dual FXR3048As (120/240) system that wishes to run a Pentair SuperFlo Variable speed pool pump (Model number 342001). There is plenty of PV and battery to run the pump. The pool had a Hayward single speed pump that reached end-of-life. I am just curious if anyone has had odd issues running this Pentair with the FXRs. You never know. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue Apr 20 16:52:46 2021 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 14:52:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24VDC Fans Message-ID: <00a601d73627$1edf8af0$5c9ea0d0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: I have a fellow who needs to replace his 24V greenhouse ventilation fan; he’s got the solar and the batteries, just needs the (16” diameter) fan. If you have any ideas, please feel free to contact me off list. I’ve looked at Grainger and some of the other lowball opportunities (Northern Tool, etc.), to no avail. Thanks! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gpgridtie at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 17:38:19 2021 From: gpgridtie at gmail.com (Bob Maynard) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 14:38:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24VDC Fans In-Reply-To: <00a601d73627$1edf8af0$5c9ea0d0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00a601d73627$1edf8af0$5c9ea0d0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Backwoods solar shows them. On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 2:22 PM wrote: > Hi folks: > > > > I have a fellow who needs to replace his 24V greenhouse ventilation fan; > he’s got the solar and the batteries, just needs the (16” diameter) fan. If > you have any ideas, please feel free to contact me off list. I’ve > looked at Grainger and some of the other lowball opportunities (Northern > Tool, etc.), to no avail. Thanks! > > > > > > Chris Daum > > Oasis Montana Inc. > > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > > 406-777-4309 fax > > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 17:39:51 2021 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 14:39:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24VDC Fans In-Reply-To: References: <00a601d73627$1edf8af0$5c9ea0d0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Look up "snap fan". Mike On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 2:39 PM Bob Maynard wrote: > Backwoods solar shows them. > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 2:22 PM wrote: > >> Hi folks: >> >> >> >> I have a fellow who needs to replace his 24V greenhouse ventilation fan; >> he’s got the solar and the batteries, just needs the (16” diameter) fan. >> If you have any ideas, please feel free to contact me off list. I’ve >> looked at Grainger and some of the other lowball opportunities (Northern >> Tool, etc.), to no avail. Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> >> Chris Daum >> >> Oasis Montana Inc. >> >> 406-777-4309 or 4321 >> >> 406-777-4309 fax >> >> www.oasismontana.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mark at hurshtown.com Tue Apr 20 17:52:41 2021 From: mark at hurshtown.com (mark at hurshtown.com) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 14:52:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24VDC Fans Message-ID: <20210420145241.42d1196bae6553eb9b5e527e5e65c85c.13ae091488.wbe@email16.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Apr 20 18:15:04 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 18:15:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences Message-ID: G'day All, I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, that would be extremely helpful. Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 20:45:16 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 19:45:16 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all, When I have done a small 3-phase I have used Outback GVFX 3548 up to 32 kW (120/208) my largest was about 45 kW it worked for 12 years, then was replaced when the owner wanted to go larger. I made a 3-phase design using Solark but SolArk did not understand 3-phase and could not answer in English my questions. (So I did not submit) However, they assumed their equipment could go to about 50 kW when combined into 9 units. On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'day All, > > I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter > manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you > know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, > that would be extremely helpful. > > Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Tue Apr 20 22:38:38 2021 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 19:38:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've done 3phase with 6 Schneider Conext XW. It worked well but when you convert to 3-phase you lose surge capacity because you are turning the inverters into 120V inverters from 240. *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 at 17:45, Darryl Thayer wrote: > Hello all, When I have done a small 3-phase I have used Outback GVFX > 3548 up to 32 kW (120/208) my largest was about 45 kW it worked for 12 > years, then was replaced when the owner wanted to go larger. I made a > 3-phase design using Solark but SolArk did not understand 3-phase and could > not answer in English my questions. (So I did not submit) However, they > assumed their equipment could go to about 50 kW when combined into 9 > units. > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> G'day All, >> >> I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter >> manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you >> know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, >> that would be extremely helpful. >> >> Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 08:26:33 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:26:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> Hi Christopher I’m not sure what power your looking for. Try https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter There are others too None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 Jay > On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > >  > G'day All, > > I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, that would be extremely helpful. > > Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, > Christopher- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 21 10:32:00 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:32:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> References: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I know Schneider has a way for that Jay. I just took XWpro webinar yesterday. Maybe a transformer was used for 480v but clusters up to around 40 KW. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:26:33 -0600, Jay wrote: Hi Christopher I'm not sure what power your looking for. Try https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter [3] There are others too None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 Jay On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day All, I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, that would be extremely helpful. Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's [4] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [5] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [6]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter [4] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [5] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [6] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Apr 21 10:40:06 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:40:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? Message-ID: I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably dry attachments? Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 11:09:57 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:09:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <569B578C-6E5B-42BB-BEB7-3CF55A758F16@gmail.com> Here is another from CPS https://www.chintpowersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/CPS-ESS-30-60kW-65-130kWh-Datasheet-September-19-2019.pdf Jay > On Apr 21, 2021, at 8:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > I know Schneider has a way for that Jay. I just took XWpro webinar yesterday. Maybe a transformer was used for 480v but clusters up to around 40 KW. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:26:33 -0600, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi Christopher >> >> I'm not sure what power your looking for. >> >> Try >> >> https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter >> >> There are others too >> >> None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 >> >> Jay >> >>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: >>> >>> G'day All, >>> >>> I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, that would be extremely helpful. >>> >>> Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, >>> Christopher- >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> >>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Apr 21 12:25:55 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:25:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bcbbc27-3465-045e-5552-53f9d52e07f6@psln.com> OK, I'll stick my neck out.  We've done very few flashings on comp for the last 18 years or so, using (first) the highest quality polyurethane caulk we could find.  However, for the last 10 years we've been using Geocell 4500 which states on the tube that it is compatible with asphalt/comp shingles.  For a variety of reasons not related to leaks, we've had to pull some of these L-feet to which we saw there was a bond/seal to the shingle like it had been welded to it.  The Geocell was still extremely flexible.             Whenever (infrequently) there's a chance we look for stains on roof decking and rafters if we're in the attic of an old install.  Of course there is the need to think about what you're doing when your applying the bead with regard to location and quantity of caulking and be conscious of torque applied to the lag bolt, being sure you get some caulking squeezed out the side of the L-foot, covering the head of the lag bolt with caulk also. Its a bit of an art we take seriously.  So far as we know, no leaks with thousands of L-feet.             Oh, and flashings are good too, but are not perfect. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 4/21/2021 7:40 AM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the > racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp > roofs?  We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success.  I > especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and > do not rely on sealant.  I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm > gasket flashing.  There are a number of these raised cone flashings in > the marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the > test of time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say > about this. > > I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a > sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met > with a lot of opposition from the roofing industry.  Just interested > to hear what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs > for reliably dry attachments? > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 21 11:56:35 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:56:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We use Quick Mount PV L-Mount but we're switching to IronRidge FlashVue soon. I've seen too many non-flashed solar pool heating mounts work their way loose to trust a mount without a flashing. While PV mounts are different and arguably better, I still prefer a fully flashed method. That said, I trust the EPDM and Butyl tape gaskets used on some metal roof mounting products, mainly because the surface is different. It doesn't compress the same way a shingle does and it's a clean flat surface. On my own shingle roof I have installed several QuickBolts to secure some steel cables that hold up courtyard lighting. I'm doing it as a bit of a test because of the lateral stresses imposed on the bolt. Only time will tell how it holds up. For now, I don't trust it enough to install it for a paying client. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 10:40 AM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the > racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp > roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I > especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not > rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket > flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the > marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of > time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. > > I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a > sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with > a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear > what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably > dry attachments? > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 11:30:44 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:30:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24VDC Fans In-Reply-To: <00a601d73627$1edf8af0$5c9ea0d0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <00a601d73627$1edf8af0$5c9ea0d0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: <4309011C-1D71-450A-8D31-C6B9965A7669@gmail.com> Hi Chris, Does he need parts or a whole new fan? Jay > On Apr 20, 2021, at 3:22 PM, chris at oasismontana.com wrote: > >  > Hi folks: > > I have a fellow who needs to replace his 24V greenhouse ventilation fan; he’s got the solar and the batteries, just needs the (16” diameter) fan. If you have any ideas, please feel free to contact me off list. I’ve looked at Grainger and some of the other lowball opportunities (Northern Tool, etc.), to no avail. Thanks! > > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 21 12:52:00 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:52:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: <9bcbbc27-3465-045e-5552-53f9d52e07f6@psln.com> References: <9bcbbc27-3465-045e-5552-53f9d52e07f6@psln.com> Message-ID: This was brought up in a previous thread possibly years ago, but we can't use Geocel 4500 in at least one jurisdiction here because it lacks ASTM testing to some required standards that the AHJ is looking for. I can't remember if that was D4586 or C920. I confirmed with Geocel at the time that the lack of testing was accurate. That's too bad, because it does exceptionally well. Geocel 2300, 3300, and 4300 have the ASTM testing behind those products. We have moved on to Chemlink M-1 which I have been impressed with. Of note is that IronRidge does not require (nor prohibit) the use of any sealants with FlashVue. I plan to use sealants with FlashVue due to the prevalence of wind driven rain around here. Jason On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 12:23 PM frenergy wrote: > OK, I'll stick my neck out. We've done very few flashings on comp for the > last 18 years or so, using (first) the highest quality polyurethane caulk > we could find. However, for the last 10 years we've been using Geocell > 4500 which states on the tube that it is compatible with asphalt/comp > shingles. For a variety of reasons not related to leaks, we've had to pull > some of these L-feet to which we saw there was a bond/seal to the shingle > like it had been welded to it. The Geocell was still extremely flexible. > > Whenever (infrequently) there's a chance we look for stains on > roof decking and rafters if we're in the attic of an old install. Of > course there is the need to think about what you're doing when your > applying the bead with regard to location and quantity of caulking and be > conscious of torque applied to the lag bolt, being sure you get some > caulking squeezed out the side of the L-foot, covering the head of the lag > bolt with caulk also. Its a bit of an art we take seriously. So far as we > know, no leaks with thousands of L-feet. > > Oh, and flashings are good too, but are not perfect. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 4/21/2021 7:40 AM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the > racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp > roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I > especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not > rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket > flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the > marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of > time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. > > I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a > sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with > a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear > what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably > dry attachments? > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Apr 21 14:54:24 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 18:54:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: <569B578C-6E5B-42BB-BEB7-3CF55A758F16@gmail.com> References: , <569B578C-6E5B-42BB-BEB7-3CF55A758F16@gmail.com> Message-ID: A couple of other sources – Ideal, Delta and Princeton Power all have larger battery based (typ. 480 VAC) inverters. Some info on Ideal 30 kW https://www.idealpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/30kW-battery-converter-RevD-16Feb2016.pdf Best regards, Lloyd Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Jay Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 11:30 AM To: offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences Here is another from CPS https://www.chintpowersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/CPS-ESS-30-60kW-65-130kWh-Datasheet-September-19-2019.pdf Jay On Apr 21, 2021, at 8:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:  I know Schneider has a way for that Jay. I just took XWpro webinar yesterday. Maybe a transformer was used for 480v but clusters up to around 40 KW. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:26:33 -0600, Jay wrote: Hi Christopher I'm not sure what power your looking for. Try https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter There are others too None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 Jay On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day All, I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, that would be extremely helpful. Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's [http://www.solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Solar-Wind-FX-Logo.png] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [http://solarandwindfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/certs.jpg] Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Wed Apr 21 15:47:56 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:47:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: References: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> Message-ID: All good ideas, but what I'm trying to avoid is putting 3 inverters together in order to achieve 3 phase. I did take a look at the Delta unit suggested by Jay and intend to contact them for more details. So if you know of a single inverter setup that provides 3 phase in a BBU and Microgrid configuration please do share. Thanks, Christopher On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 10:32 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I know Schneider has a way for that Jay. I just took XWpro webinar > yesterday. Maybe a transformer was used for 480v but clusters up to around > 40 KW. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:26:33 -0600, Jay wrote: > > Hi Christopher > > I'm not sure what power your looking for. > > Try > > https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter > > There are others too > > None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 > > Jay > > On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > > G'day All, > > I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter > manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you > know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, > that would be extremely helpful. > > Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer's > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Apr 21 15:58:40 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:58:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: References: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Another company that may be worth looking at is ELM. http://www.elmmicrogrid.com/ It looks like they have some 480V commercial packages. Cheers Dave On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 3:48 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > All good ideas, but what I'm trying to avoid is putting 3 inverters > together in order to achieve 3 phase. I did take a look at the Delta unit > suggested by Jay and intend to contact them for more details. So if you > know of a single inverter setup that provides 3 phase in a BBU and > Microgrid configuration please do share. > > Thanks, > Christopher > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 10:32 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> I know Schneider has a way for that Jay. I just took XWpro webinar >> yesterday. Maybe a transformer was used for 480v but clusters up to around >> 40 KW. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:26:33 -0600, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi Christopher >> >> I'm not sure what power your looking for. >> >> Try >> >> https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter >> >> There are others too >> >> None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 >> >> Jay >> >> On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >> G'day All, >> >> I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter >> manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you >> know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, >> that would be extremely helpful. >> >> Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hathasolar at yahoo.com Wed Apr 21 15:10:20 2021 From: hathasolar at yahoo.com (wes kennedy) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 19:10:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: References: <569B578C-6E5B-42BB-BEB7-3CF55A758F16@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1607358263.2625663.1619032220873@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Guys, Ideal and Princeton have both exited this space. Delta is solid, there is also Dynapower with a 125KW class and larger.  -Wes Kennedy 303-653-3073 On Wednesday, April 21, 2021, 12:54:32 PM MDT, Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: A couple of other sources – Ideal, Delta and Princeton Power all have larger battery based (typ. 480 VAC) inverters. Some info on Ideal 30 kW https://www.idealpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/30kW-battery-converter-RevD-16Feb2016.pdf   Best regards,   Lloyd Sunstruck Consulting   Sent from Mail for Windows 10   From: Jay Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 11:30 AM To: offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences   Here is another from CPS   https://www.chintpowersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/CPS-ESS-30-60kW-65-130kWh-Datasheet-September-19-2019.pdf   Jay On Apr 21, 2021, at 8:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:  I know Schneider has a way for that Jay. I just took XWpro webinar yesterday. Maybe a transformer was used for 480v but clusters up to around 40 KW.  Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:26:33 -0600, Jay wrote: Hi Christopher   I'm not sure what power your looking for.    Try   https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter   There are others too    None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208   Jay On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day All,   I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, that would be extremely helpful.   Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870  5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail:chris at solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org   _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 11:04:29 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 08:04:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> References: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Outback FXR inverters has a three phase option, Solark can also do this. Delta has 125 k 480 vac unit also On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:12 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Christopher > > I’m not sure what power your looking for. > > Try > > https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter > > There are others too > > None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 > > Jay > > On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >  > G'day All, > > I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter > manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you > know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, > that would be extremely helpful. > > Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 11:10:51 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 09:10:51 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: References: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would look closely at Growatt. One thing easy to overlook, with 48V batteries especially, is how difficult it is to have BOS components that are UL listed on the DC side. This is an advantage of the cluster topology as opposed to a central inverter topology. There are some good custom options for current >1000A but it depends on the AHJ. Let us know where you end up in this. Thanks On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 9:04 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Outback FXR inverters has a three phase option, Solark can also do this. > Delta has 125 k 480 vac unit also > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:12 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi Christopher >> >> I’m not sure what power your looking for. >> >> Try >> >> https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter >> >> There are others too >> >> None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 >> >> Jay >> >> On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >>  >> G'day All, >> >> I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter >> manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you >> know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, >> that would be extremely helpful. >> >> Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Apr 22 12:26:09 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 09:26:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] seeking 3ph battery based/backed inverters and experiences In-Reply-To: <> References: <089F0D8E-98C4-48C7-AEAB-3BB85E00333B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1a25550b2813ae3d69f4461d86083129@127.0.0.1> I missed the size of the power system required here. Below is a diagram from Schneider that can be scaled up. All components UL listed! I assume one can do the same with Radians. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 09:10:51 -0600, Mac Lewis wrote: I would look closely at Growatt. One thing easy to overlook, with 48V batteries especially, is how difficult it is to have BOS components that are UL listed on the DC side. This is an advantage of the cluster topology as opposed to a central inverter topology. There are some good custom options for current >1000A but it depends on the AHJ. Let us know where you end up in this. Thanks On Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 9:04 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Outback FXR inverters has a three phase option, Solark can also do this. Delta has 125 k 480 vac unit also On Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 7:12 AM Jay wrote: Hi Christopher I'm not sure what power your looking for. Try https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter [5] There are others too None of the normal ( OB, Schneider etc) will do 208-480. Only 120-208 Jay On Apr 20, 2021, at 4:15 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day All, I'm not familiar with any 3 ph 208 to 480vac battery backup inverter manufacturers. So if you could point me in the right direction on who you know and better yet who you've had experience with, good, bad or otherwise, that would be extremely helpful. Happy 420 to all my fellow Solar Bozo's, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [8] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [9]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [10] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [13] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [15] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [17] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [22] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [23] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [24] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [25] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [27] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [28] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [29] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [30] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [4] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [5] https://www.princetonelec.com/dela-inverter [6] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [7] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [8] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [9] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [10] http://re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [16] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [17] http://re-wrenches.org [18] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [23] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [24] http://re-wrenches.org [25] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [28] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [29] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [30] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a wye wye 2.PNG Type: image/png Size: 1075462 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 22 14:57:02 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 11:57:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <441e6eb1c7d62c170f4e9b653a15ae98@mail.gmail.com> Jeremy: Good question. I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof rain-proofing relies on gravity. This is the concept invented by the first roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed. When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing shingles? This problem alone is a deal killer. I am sure lesser installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk. Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not nearly as reliable as gravity. Even the best caulk degrades with time, temperature and UV. Roofing materials crack and become brittle and powdery. Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and crazy on roofs a year or more old. We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon *Sent:* Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably dry attachments? Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu Apr 22 18:47:40 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:47:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: <441e6eb1c7d62c170f4e9b653a15ae98@mail.gmail.com> References: <441e6eb1c7d62c170f4e9b653a15ae98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> William you and I think a lot alike. I had a job today where “the owner was told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making my roof leak”. This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles. We used flashings and added flashing stock anywhere that was close to a shingle seam (just like always). So instead of fighting the battle we scheduled to show up at the same time as the roofer (one of the top 2 roofers in town and the same company that laid the roof 11yrs ago). Did the leak checks, ID’d the location, lifted panels and let them go to town. Turns out that the leak was 3’ away from any of our penetrations and the leak was at a shingle nail. The cause according to the roofers (lead guy and manager) was water running sideways from the adjacent gap between shingles. Their comment-“we see this all the time on these 3D shingles on roofs that don’t have solar panels”. Apparently, “if leaves build up or ice dams up then water shoots sideways and after a while the nail holes leak”. Their warranty -2 years! So, there ya go. Crisis averted, solar not the culprit. But can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT used flashings? We will not be using unflashed attachments. Besides, what happens when the new guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter spacing changes (we see that a LOT)? Sealed L feet are a huge step backwards IMO. The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack old style) are no longer available. It seems that all the new ones rely on a cone with EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing. Hence the initial reason for this post- what are you guys using? Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Jeremy: > > Good question. I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof rain-proofing relies on gravity. This is the concept invented by the first roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed. > > When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing shingles? This problem alone is a deal killer. I am sure lesser installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk. > > Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not nearly as reliable as gravity. Even the best caulk degrades with time, temperature and UV. Roofing materials crack and become brittle and powdery. Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and crazy on roofs a year or more old. > > We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? > > I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. > > I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably dry attachments? > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Apr 22 21:27:02 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:27:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Message-ID: I found this gem today while tracking down an AFCI fault. This was one of three strings connected to a Sunny Boy 9000TL. I was surprised at how rare and intermittent the AFCI fault was. The THWN pulled out effortlessly. I was surprised because usually I spend many hours tracking down AFCI problems only to find out it's a bad inverter. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20210422_123715-resized-1024.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 189827 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Apr 22 23:12:43 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:12:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <441e6eb1c7d62c170f4e9b653a15ae98@mail.gmail.com> <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <0fbe33aa-4338-6784-b18f-dcf4d64de626@psln.com> It would be interesting to know if there is some collaboration between the rack manufacturers offering these new EPDM or peel and stick legs/ cones/attachment points and roof shingle manufacturers, and what that conversation is like. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 4/22/2021 3:47 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > William you and I think a lot alike.  I had a job today where “the > owner was told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making > my roof leak”.  This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles. >  We used flashings and added flashing stock anywhere that was close to > a shingle seam (just like always).  So instead of fighting the battle > we scheduled to show up at the same time as the roofer (one of the top > 2 roofers in town and the same company that laid the roof 11yrs ago). >  Did the leak checks, ID’d the location, lifted panels and let them go > to town.  Turns out that the leak was 3’ away from any of our > penetrations and the leak was at a shingle nail.  The cause according > to the roofers (lead guy and manager) was water running sideways from > the adjacent gap between shingles.  Their comment-“we see this all the > time on these 3D shingles on roofs that don’t have solar panels”. >  Apparently, “if leaves build up or ice dams up then water shoots > sideways and after a while the nail holes leak”.  Their warranty -2 > years!  So, there ya go.  Crisis averted, solar not the culprit.  But > can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT used > flashings? > > We will not be using unflashed attachments.  Besides, what happens > when the new guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter > spacing changes (we see that a LOT)?  Sealed L feet are a huge step > backwards IMO. > > The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack > old style) are no longer available.  It seems that all the new ones > rely on a cone with EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing.  Hence > the initial reason for this post- what are you guys using? > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller >> wrote: >> >>  >> >> Jeremy: >> >> Good question.  I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof >> rain-proofing relies on gravity.  This is the concept invented by the >> first roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology >> progressed. >> >> When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What >> happens when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the >> roofing shingles? This problem alone is a deal killer.  I am sure >> lesser installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk. >> >> Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are >> not nearly as reliable as gravity. Even the best caulk degrades with >> time, temperature and UV.  Roofing materials crack and become brittle >> and powdery.  Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp >> roof and crazy on roofs a year or more old. >> >> We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org >> ] *On Behalf Of >> *Jeremy Coxon >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? >> >> I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the >> racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for >> asphalt/comp roofs?  We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much >> success.  I especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully >> flashed and do not rely on sealant.  I am NOT a fan of their new >> raised cone/epdm gasket flashing.  There are a number of these raised >> cone flashings in the marketplace and it’s my experience that they >> don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder what the roofing >> manufacturers have to say about this. >> >> I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a >> sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met >> with a lot of opposition from the roofing industry.  Just interested >> to hear what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs >> for reliably dry attachments? >> >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> MWBE Certified >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 22:32:02 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:32:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes they are. Their rating is based on wire size, number of strands, material, insulation thickness. Insulation material isn’t specified. Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 22, 2021, at 7:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I found this gem today while tracking down an AFCI fault. This was one of three strings connected to a Sunny Boy 9000TL. I was surprised at how rare and intermittent the AFCI fault was. The THWN pulled out effortlessly. > > I was surprised because usually I spend many hours tracking down AFCI problems only to find out it's a bad inverter. > > Jason > > > > <20210422_123715-resized-1024.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Thu Apr 22 23:33:12 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:33:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <441e6eb1c7d62c170f4e9b653a15ae98@mail.gmail.com> <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <77f270a65da220ca94c5c89b0ef54076@mail.gmail.com> Jeremy: It is amazing how we all exist in parallel universes. We have had IDENTICAL experiences with leak claims and handled them EXACTLY as you did: We meet with the roofer of choice and dissect the patient as a team. Our policy is: If we caused the leak, we pay for everything. If we did not cause the leak, we pay for nothing. In almost 40 years of solar contracting we have caused exactly one leak. I intend to keep it to that number. We have to take roofing issues seriously and not let the manufacturer’s bean counters dictate how we do what we know how to do. The new hardware is crap, in my opinion. Rant off… You bring up three important points: 1. Flashings are essential. 2. Valleys need to have a gap between shingles or tiles and kept clear of debris. 3. Rain water can and will travel sideways. Thank you so much for bringing up this scenario. It is a huge reality check for those of us that poke holes in roofs for a living. Our liability exposure is huge. What will we be using? I don’t know. Snap-N-Rack has been marginalizing their product line for a while now, so I guess I am shopping for a new direction. It’s a shame because I have a big inventory of SNR parts and pieces. I am as keen as you are to learn where to turn for racking. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon *Sent:* Thursday, April 22, 2021 3:48 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? William you and I think a lot alike. I had a job today where “the owner was told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making my roof leak”. This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles. We used flashings and added flashing stock anywhere that was close to a shingle seam (just like always). So instead of fighting the battle we scheduled to show up at the same time as the roofer (one of the top 2 roofers in town and the same company that laid the roof 11yrs ago). Did the leak checks, ID’d the location, lifted panels and let them go to town. Turns out that the leak was 3’ away from any of our penetrations and the leak was at a shingle nail. The cause according to the roofers (lead guy and manager) was water running sideways from the adjacent gap between shingles. Their comment-“we see this all the time on these 3D shingles on roofs that don’t have solar panels”. Apparently, “if leaves build up or ice dams up then water shoots sideways and after a while the nail holes leak”. Their warranty -2 years! So, there ya go. Crisis averted, solar not the culprit. But can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT used flashings? We will not be using unflashed attachments. Besides, what happens when the new guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter spacing changes (we see that a LOT)? Sealed L feet are a huge step backwards IMO. The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack old style) are no longer available. It seems that all the new ones rely on a cone with EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing. Hence the initial reason for this post- what are you guys using? Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller wrote:  Jeremy: Good question. I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof rain-proofing relies on gravity. This is the concept invented by the first roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed. When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing shingles? This problem alone is a deal killer. I am sure lesser installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk. Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not nearly as reliable as gravity. Even the best caulk degrades with time, temperature and UV. Roofing materials crack and become brittle and powdery. Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and crazy on roofs a year or more old. We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon *Sent:* Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably dry attachments? Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Apr 23 08:48:00 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:48:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: <77f270a65da220ca94c5c89b0ef54076@mail.gmail.com> References: <441e6eb1c7d62c170f4e9b653a15ae98@mail.gmail.com> <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> <77f270a65da220ca94c5c89b0ef54076@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Jeremy, I have been using Quickmount QMSE-Lag flashings for years. They have the raised seal that does not rely on an EPDM bushing. It's more expensive than most other flashings, but I figure this small added cost is definitely worth the peace of mind. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 1:11 AM William Miller wrote: > Jeremy: > > > > It is amazing how we all exist in parallel universes. We have had > IDENTICAL experiences with leak claims and handled them EXACTLY as you > did: We meet with the roofer of choice and dissect the patient as a team. > Our policy is: If we caused the leak, we pay for everything. If we did > not cause the leak, we pay for nothing. > > > > In almost 40 years of solar contracting we have caused exactly one leak. > I intend to keep it to that number. We have to take roofing issues > seriously and not let the manufacturer’s bean counters dictate how we do > what we know how to do. The new hardware is crap, in my opinion. > > > > Rant off… > > > > You bring up three important points: > > > > 1. Flashings are essential. > > 2. Valleys need to have a gap between shingles or tiles and kept clear > of debris. > > 3. Rain water can and will travel sideways. > > > > Thank you so much for bringing up this scenario. It is a huge reality > check for those of us that poke holes in roofs for a living. Our liability > exposure is huge. > > > > What will we be using? I don’t know. Snap-N-Rack has been marginalizing > their product line for a while now, so I guess I am shopping for a new > direction. It’s a shame because I have a big inventory of SNR parts and > pieces. I am as keen as you are to learn where to turn for racking. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon > *Sent:* Thursday, April 22, 2021 3:48 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? > > > > William you and I think a lot alike. I had a job today where “the owner > was told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making my roof > leak”. This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles. We used > flashings and added flashing stock anywhere that was close to a shingle > seam (just like always). So instead of fighting the battle we scheduled to > show up at the same time as the roofer (one of the top 2 roofers in town > and the same company that laid the roof 11yrs ago). Did the leak checks, > ID’d the location, lifted panels and let them go to town. Turns out that > the leak was 3’ away from any of our penetrations and the leak was at a > shingle nail. The cause according to the roofers (lead guy and manager) > was water running sideways from the adjacent gap between shingles. Their > comment-“we see this all the time on these 3D shingles on roofs that don’t > have solar panels”. Apparently, “if leaves build up or ice dams up then > water shoots sideways and after a while the nail holes leak”. Their > warranty -2 years! So, there ya go. Crisis averted, solar not the > culprit. But can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT > used flashings? > > > > We will not be using unflashed attachments. Besides, what happens when > the new guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter spacing > changes (we see that a LOT)? Sealed L feet are a huge step backwards IMO. > > > > The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack old > style) are no longer available. It seems that all the new ones rely on a > cone with EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing. Hence the initial > reason for this post- what are you guys using? > > > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > > Certified MWBE > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller > wrote: > >  > > Jeremy: > > > > Good question. I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof > rain-proofing relies on gravity. This is the concept invented by the first > roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed. > > > > When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens > when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing > shingles? This problem alone is a deal killer. I am sure lesser > installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk. > > > > Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not > nearly as reliable as gravity. Even the best caulk degrades with time, > temperature and UV. Roofing materials crack and become brittle and > powdery. Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and > crazy on roofs a year or more old. > > > > We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? > > > > I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the > racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp > roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I > especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not > rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket > flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the > marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of > time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. > > > > I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a > sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with > a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear > what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably > dry attachments? > > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Apr 23 11:23:36 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:23:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <441e6eb1c7d62c170f4e9b653a15ae98@mail.gmail.com> <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <181CB7F2-D1B5-4980-A7C7-862A4821F651@swnl.net> I have lost many a jobs due to the difference of flashing costs….THANK the solar gods. How can one install something w/ a “25 year” life cycle w/o doing their best. I looked at the Unirac Flashkit Pro flashings and they look like they will replace the PV Quick mount (my first choice) that my supplier no longer carries. > On Apr 22, 2021, at 6:47 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > William you and I think a lot alike. I had a job today where “the owner was told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making my roof leak”. This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles. We used flashings and added flashing stock anywhere that was close to a shingle seam (just like always). So instead of fighting the battle we scheduled to show up at the same time as the roofer (one of the top 2 roofers in town and the same company that laid the roof 11yrs ago). Did the leak checks, ID’d the location, lifted panels and let them go to town. Turns out that the leak was 3’ away from any of our penetrations and the leak was at a shingle nail. The cause according to the roofers (lead guy and manager) was water running sideways from the adjacent gap between shingles. Their comment-“we see this all the time on these 3D shingles on roofs that don’t have solar panels”. Apparently, “if leaves build up or ice dams up then water shoots sideways and after a while the nail holes leak”. Their warranty -2 years! So, there ya go. Crisis averted, solar not the culprit. But can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT used flashings? > > We will not be using unflashed attachments. Besides, what happens when the new guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter spacing changes (we see that a LOT)? Sealed L feet are a huge step backwards IMO. > > The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack old style) are no longer available. It seems that all the new ones rely on a cone with EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing. Hence the initial reason for this post- what are you guys using? > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller > wrote: >> >>  >> Jeremy: >> >> Good question. I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof rain-proofing relies on gravity. This is the concept invented by the first roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed. >> >> When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing shingles? This problem alone is a deal killer. I am sure lesser installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk. >> >> Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not nearly as reliable as gravity. Even the best caulk degrades with time, temperature and UV. Roofing materials crack and become brittle and powdery. Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and crazy on roofs a year or more old. >> >> We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs. >> >> William >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon >> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? >> >> I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. >> >> I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably dry attachments? >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> MWBE Certified >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 11:30:07 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:30:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also have to appreciate the 8 screws holding that 6x6”. On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 12:13 AM Jay wrote: > Yes they are. > > Their rating is based on wire size, number of strands, material, > insulation thickness. > > Insulation material isn’t specified. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Apr 22, 2021, at 7:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > >  > > I found this gem today while tracking down an AFCI fault. This was one > of three strings connected to a Sunny Boy 9000TL. I was surprised at how > rare and intermittent the AFCI fault was. The THWN pulled out effortlessly. > > > > I was surprised because usually I spend many hours tracking down AFCI > problems only to find out it's a bad inverter. > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > <20210422_123715-resized-1024.jpg> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Fri Apr 23 11:45:00 2021 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:45:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <033301d73857$9fab68c0$df023a40$@pv-cables.com> Here are the specs for MC4’s being used with wire other than PV wire: PV_SOL-LVDC_(en).pdf Bryan Norkunas bryan at pv-cables.com PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 8:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Also have to appreciate the 8 screws holding that 6x6”. On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 12:13 AM Jay wrote: Yes they are. Their rating is based on wire size, number of strands, material, insulation thickness. Insulation material isn’t specified. Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 22, 2021, at 7:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I found this gem today while tracking down an AFCI fault. This was one of three strings connected to a Sunny Boy 9000TL. I was surprised at how rare and intermittent the AFCI fault was. The THWN pulled out effortlessly. > > I was surprised because usually I spend many hours tracking down AFCI problems only to find out it's a bad inverter. > > Jason > > > > <20210422_123715-resized-1024.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Apr 23 12:50:11 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 12:50:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? In-Reply-To: <181CB7F2-D1B5-4980-A7C7-862A4821F651@swnl.net> References: <441e6eb1c7d62c170f4e9b653a15ae98@mail.gmail.com> <54A31AC9-DC08-46C2-B0B6-6989A3E88918@sunwindpowerinc.com> <181CB7F2-D1B5-4980-A7C7-862A4821F651@swnl.net> Message-ID: I'd strongly recommend everyone look into the IronRidge FlashVue. At risk of causing supply shortages, maybe the price will come down at scale. But they are not prohibitively expensive now. The big hole that allows you to find the pilot hole is a really nice feature. I'm saying goodbye the the QMPV L-Mount, but they're the same company now anyway - no harm done. Jason On Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:23 AM Tump wrote: > I have lost many a jobs due to the difference of flashing costs….THANK the > solar gods. How can one install something w/ a “25 year” life cycle w/o > doing their best. I looked at the Unirac *Flashkit Pro* flashings and > they look like they will replace the PV Quick mount (my first choice) that > my supplier no longer carries. > > On Apr 22, 2021, at 6:47 PM, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > > William you and I think a lot alike. I had a job today where “the owner > was told by a roofing company that those solar panels are making my roof > leak”. This was on an 11 yr old install over new shingles. We used > flashings and added flashing stock anywhere that was close to a shingle > seam (just like always). So instead of fighting the battle we scheduled to > show up at the same time as the roofer (one of the top 2 roofers in town > and the same company that laid the roof 11yrs ago). Did the leak checks, > ID’d the location, lifted panels and let them go to town. Turns out that > the leak was 3’ away from any of our penetrations and the leak was at a > shingle nail. The cause according to the roofers (lead guy and manager) > was water running sideways from the adjacent gap between shingles. Their > comment-“we see this all the time on these 3D shingles on roofs that don’t > have solar panels”. Apparently, “if leaves build up or ice dams up then > water shoots sideways and after a while the nail holes leak”. Their > warranty -2 years! So, there ya go. Crisis averted, solar not the > culprit. But can you imagine how that would have turned out if we had NOT > used flashings? > > We will not be using unflashed attachments. Besides, what happens when > the new guy misses the rafter or what happens when the rafter spacing > changes (we see that a LOT)? Sealed L feet are a huge step backwards IMO. > > The problem now though is the flashings that I know work (SnapNRack old > style) are no longer available. It seems that all the new ones rely on a > cone with EPDM seal and washered lags for sealing. Hence the initial > reason for this post- what are you guys using? > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:57 PM, William Miller > wrote: > >  > Jeremy: > > > Good question. I am with you in that I prefer that my pitched-roof > rain-proofing relies on gravity. This is the concept invented by the first > roof thatcher and followed ever since as roofing technology progressed. > > > When I spotted this regressive trend my first question was: What happens > when the rafter connection you need falls under a seam in the roofing > shingles? This problem alone is a deal killer. I am sure lesser > installers will attempt to fill the seam with caulk. > > > Adding to my discomfort is the reality that chemical solutions are not > nearly as reliable as gravity. Even the best caulk degrades with time, > temperature and UV. Roofing materials crack and become brittle and > powdery. Applying the new technology is iffy with a new comp roof and > crazy on roofs a year or more old. > > > We will not be using the new flashingless attachments on comp roofs. > > > William > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jeremy Coxon > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 21, 2021 7:40 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Trend away from roof flashings??? > > > I’m interested in what the group has to say about the trend, by the > racking manufacturers, away from the use of flashings for asphalt/comp > roofs? We have long used SnapNRack flashings with much success. I > especially like the fact that the penetrations are fully flashed and do not > rely on sealant. I am NOT a fan of their new raised cone/epdm gasket > flashing. There are a number of these raised cone flashings in the > marketplace and it’s my experience that they don’t hold up to the test of > time and I wonder what the roofing manufacturers have to say about this. > > > I see that Unirac, SnapNRack and others are now offering basically a > sealed L-Foot which is essentially where we were 15-16yrs ago and met with > a lot of opposition from the roofing industry. Just interested to hear > what you guys are using these days on asphalt shingle roofs for reliably > dry attachments? > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump at swnl.net* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Mon Apr 26 11:55:06 2021 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 08:55:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00cc01d73ab4$87627560$96276020$@pv-cables.com> Trying this again since my first link didn’t work, here is the link to the MFG specs for NON PV , low DC applications: https://ec.staubli.com/AcroFiles/Technical%20Info/PV_SOL-LVDC_(en).pdf For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of thermoplastic PVC insulation cables. Bryan Norkunas From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 8:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Also have to appreciate the 8 screws holding that 6x6”. On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 12:13 AM Jay wrote: Yes they are. Their rating is based on wire size, number of strands, material, insulation thickness. Insulation material isn’t specified. Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 22, 2021, at 7:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I found this gem today while tracking down an AFCI fault. This was one of three strings connected to a Sunny Boy 9000TL. I was surprised at how rare and intermittent the AFCI fault was. The THWN pulled out effortlessly. > > I was surprised because usually I spend many hours tracking down AFCI problems only to find out it's a bad inverter. > > Jason > > > > <20210422_123715-resized-1024.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Mon Apr 26 12:23:37 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:23:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: <00cc01d73ab4$87627560$96276020$@pv-cables.com> References: <00cc01d73ab4$87627560$96276020$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: Bryan, Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you referenced. Here's the complete text: For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables made > from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material of the > connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables > usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations > sometimes 80 °C. THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under the category of a "PVC cable." So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree rating?! Can you help un-confuse me? Thank you! Blake On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Bryan Norkunas wrote: > Trying this again since my first link didn’t work, here is the link to the > MFG specs for NON PV , low DC applications: > > > > https://ec.staubli.com/AcroFiles/Technical%20Info/PV_SOL-LVDC_(en).pdf > > > > > > For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of thermoplastic PVC > insulation cables. > > > > > > > > > > Bryan Norkunas > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Sparadeo > *Sent:* Friday, April 23, 2021 8:30 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? > > > > Also have to appreciate the 8 screws holding that 6x6”. > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 12:13 AM Jay wrote: > > Yes they are. > > Their rating is based on wire size, number of strands, material, > insulation thickness. > > Insulation material isn’t specified. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Apr 22, 2021, at 7:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > >  > > I found this gem today while tracking down an AFCI fault. This was one > of three strings connected to a Sunny Boy 9000TL. I was surprised at how > rare and intermittent the AFCI fault was. The THWN pulled out effortlessly. > > > > I was surprised because usually I spend many hours tracking down AFCI > problems only to find out it's a bad inverter. > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > <20210422_123715-resized-1024.jpg> > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > Chris Sparadeo > > > > > > C_802-369-4458 > > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Mon Apr 26 12:28:54 2021 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:28:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: <00cc01d73ab4$87627560$96276020$@pv-cables.com> Message-ID: <012401d73ab9$401a1190$c04e34b0$@pv-cables.com> The MC4-Evo 2 isn’t the typical MC4 connector we are used to in the United States, these are commonly found in Europe, designed to meet European standards. Standard MC4 on the left, EVO-2 on the right pictured below: MC4 and MC4-Evo 2 portfolio first with new IEC certification The MC4 pictured by Jason is not an EVo-2 connector and there for not approved for PVC cable. Bryan Norkunas From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Blake Gleason Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 9:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Bryan, Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you referenced. Here's the complete text: For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations sometimes 80 °C. THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under the category of a "PVC cable." So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree rating?! Can you help un-confuse me? Thank you! Blake On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 8:55 AM Bryan Norkunas wrote: Trying this again since my first link didn’t work, here is the link to the MFG specs for NON PV , low DC applications: https://ec.staubli.com/AcroFiles/Technical%20Info/PV_SOL-LVDC_(en).pdf For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of thermoplastic PVC insulation cables. Bryan Norkunas From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 8:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Also have to appreciate the 8 screws holding that 6x6”. On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 12:13 AM Jay wrote: Yes they are. Their rating is based on wire size, number of strands, material, insulation thickness. Insulation material isn’t specified. Jay Peltz power. > On Apr 22, 2021, at 7:35 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I found this gem today while tracking down an AFCI fault. This was one of three strings connected to a Sunny Boy 9000TL. I was surprised at how rare and intermittent the AFCI fault was. The THWN pulled out effortlessly. > > I was surprised because usually I spend many hours tracking down AFCI problems only to find out it's a bad inverter. > > Jason > > > > <20210422_123715-resized-1024.jpg> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 Image removed by sender. 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 Image removed by sender. Image removed by sender. Image removed by sender. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20249 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 594 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 20:19:26 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 19:19:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Blake, In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 > connectors.* There are several reasons for this: > 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, which > only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not > covered by our certification > 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or validation > of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We therefore > cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV connectors. > The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is clearly > stated in the assembly instructions. > 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, which > behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most > widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily > deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited > cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications > where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, > THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are > absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other > PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by > UL6703. These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli North America. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: > > Bryan, > > Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you > referenced. Here's the complete text: > > For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables made >> from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material of the >> connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >> sometimes 80 °C. > > > THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under > the category of a "PVC cable." > > So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. But > then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the > third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire > type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree > rating?! > > Can you help un-confuse me? > > Thank you! > Blake > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Mon Apr 26 20:41:04 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 17:41:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Corey, Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be solid vs stranded). All - What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 inside a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why is this so hard for me?? Best, Blake Thanks On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Blake, > > In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information > directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: > > The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 >> connectors.* There are several reasons for this: >> 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, >> which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not >> covered by our certification >> 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or validation >> of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We therefore >> cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV connectors. >> The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is clearly >> stated in the assembly instructions. >> 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, which >> behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most >> widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily >> deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited >> cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications >> where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, >> THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are >> absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other >> PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by >> UL6703. > > > These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli > North America. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: > >> >> Bryan, >> >> Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you >> referenced. Here's the complete text: >> >> For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables made >>> from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material of the >>> connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >>> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >>> sometimes 80 °C. >> >> >> THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under >> the category of a "PVC cable." >> >> So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. >> But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the >> third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire >> type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree >> rating?! >> >> Can you help un-confuse me? >> >> Thank you! >> Blake >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 21:44:54 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:44:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Where did the thought come from about THHN and MC4, insulation is much thicker, releaf is the MC4 matches for USE/PV #10 wire is larger so you would have a poor or no seal. Also THHN is not weather/sunlight resistant. I had an inspector in Hawaii insist on MC4's connecting PV wire to THHN in junction box, he said it has to be done that way, l politely asked if they were approved for that use and there it was "Deer in the headlights" needless to say we kept the barrel crimps and insulators. The industry is going kinda mad, 15 years ago we had to sister up rafters for the lags, now some guys just screw into the plywood with sealant. If you do it right you will do it once, if you cut corners, it will come back to haunt you, or someone else. l know most of you have seen it all too, its our responsibility to help the newer guys on how to do it right. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Blake, > > In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information > directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: > > The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 >> connectors.* There are several reasons for this: >> 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, >> which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not >> covered by our certification >> 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or validation >> of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We therefore >> cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV connectors. >> The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is clearly >> stated in the assembly instructions. >> 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, which >> behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most >> widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily >> deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited >> cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications >> where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, >> THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are >> absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other >> PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by >> UL6703. > > > These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli > North America. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: > >> >> Bryan, >> >> Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you >> referenced. Here's the complete text: >> >> For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables made >>> from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material of the >>> connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >>> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >>> sometimes 80 °C. >> >> >> THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under >> the category of a "PVC cable." >> >> So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. >> But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the >> third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire >> type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree >> rating?! >> >> Can you help un-confuse me? >> >> Thank you! >> Blake >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Apr 26 23:16:32 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 20:16:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Blake,             Its great to get definitive clarification on this MC4/THHN issue, we've been using 4-14 Polaris connectors with good results.  Being inside a Nema3 can and having silicone grease in the Polaris makes for a solid, durable connection.  Inspecting some of these that are now 17 years in the field shows very good condition for the wire landing in the Polaris and the condition of THWN-2 wire insulation.  We haven't had the best of luck with Buchanans. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 4/26/2021 5:41 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: > Corey, > > Thank you!  Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less > confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to > be solid vs stranded). > > All - > What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 > inside a junction box?  We used to use split bolts, which make an > awesome electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily > serviceable.  Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt > reliable for that purpose.  Same for WAGO levers.  I hear about people > using Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of > crimping problems for another.  And of course, the only problem with > using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression gland may not be as > watertight as it is with PVWire, and the Buchanans certainly are not > watertight.  Terminal blocks generally aren't listed, definitely > aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows.  Why is this so > hard for me?? > > Best, > Blake > Thanks > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ray at solarray.com Tue Apr 27 10:07:12 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:07:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd 2nd using the Polaris and similar insulated block connectors.  Easy to make a good connection, easy to test voltage without disturbing the connection, easy to double check connection torque, and easy to reverse.  They are direct burial rated, although I've never actually felt that confident. I've actually seen a couple of fires started with split bolts, so I feel those need to go the way of the dinosaurs.  That's probably a hundred year old connector, are very difficult to check after being taped, can't check voltage, and the sharp edges can short through the tape, if not really done well. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/26/21 11:16 PM, frenergy wrote: > Blake, > >             Its great to get definitive clarification on this MC4/THHN > issue, we've been using 4-14 Polaris connectors with good results.  > Being inside a Nema3 can and having silicone grease in the Polaris > makes for a solid, durable connection.  Inspecting some of these that > are now 17 years in the field shows very good condition for the wire > landing in the Polaris and the condition of THWN-2 wire insulation.  > We haven't had the best of luck with Buchanans. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 4/26/2021 5:41 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: >> Corey, >> >> Thank you!  Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less >> confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to >> be solid vs stranded). >> >> All - >> What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 >> inside a junction box?  We used to use split bolts, which make an >> awesome electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily >> serviceable.  Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt >> reliable for that purpose. Same for WAGO levers.  I hear about people >> using Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of >> crimping problems for another.  And of course, the only problem with >> using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression gland may not be as >> watertight as it is with PVWire, and the Buchanans certainly are not >> watertight.  Terminal blocks generally aren't listed, definitely >> aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows.  Why is this so >> hard for me?? >> >> Best, >> Blake >> Thanks >> > From august at luminalt.com Tue Apr 27 10:13:51 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:13:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Blake - Greetings from across the Bay! We've been using the Buchanan/Ideal splice caps for approximately the last 5 years - they are awesome. As you mention, there is a lot of grey area in exactly what is appropriate in an outdoor box and rated for the various combos of wires we use in solar. That said, the splice cap crimp is solid, easy to visually inspect, and generally the most foolproof connection mechanism I've seen, especially compared to wire nuts and MC4 connectors. We still use MC4 connectors in our J-boxes if we have a system rated over 600 volts, but in that case we're not using THWN-2 anyway because we need wire with a higher voltage rating. For larger wires or applications where we're combining more wires, we're using the insulated multitap connectors such as those made by Polaris. August Luminalt On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:40 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > Corey, > > Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less > confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be > solid vs stranded). > > All - > What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 inside > a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome > electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. > Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that > purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice > caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. > And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the > compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the > Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't > listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why > is this so hard for me?? > > Best, > Blake > Thanks > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> Blake, >> >> In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information >> directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: >> >> The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 >>> connectors.* There are several reasons for this: >>> 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, >>> which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not >>> covered by our certification >>> 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or validation >>> of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We therefore >>> cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV connectors. >>> The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is clearly >>> stated in the assembly instructions. >>> 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, which >>> behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most >>> widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily >>> deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited >>> cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications >>> where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, >>> THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are >>> absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other >>> PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by >>> UL6703. >> >> >> These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli >> North America. >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: >> >>> >>> Bryan, >>> >>> Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you >>> referenced. Here's the complete text: >>> >>> For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables >>>> made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material >>>> of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >>>> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >>>> sometimes 80 °C. >>> >>> >>> THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under >>> the category of a "PVC cable." >>> >>> So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. >>> But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the >>> third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire >>> type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree >>> rating?! >>> >>> Can you help un-confuse me? >>> >>> Thank you! >>> Blake >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner > Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence > O: 510-845-2997 x128 > C: 510-867-5878 > > 1035 Folger Ave. > Berkeley, CA 94710 > www.sunlightandpower.com > License #326203 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue Apr 27 10:41:02 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:41:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s voltage off In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c67f45f-4872-72a1-67aa-b9966573261b@psln.com> We're setting up charge points for a new pack of SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries.  Needed to use the voltage  "offset" function in the FM80's a bit to jive with the 2, Fluke 87 meters we got testing the actual voltage at the battery bus bars.  However. the Mate3s is reading .6 volts high and can't find an offset function in the Mate's menus.  Anybody familiar with the path to get there, if its there?  Assuming the Mate uses the voltage readings its showing on the display, this could have a significant impact on battery health.  Do I need to calibrate both my Flukes?...or buy a new Fluke that's not 22 years old? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 11:00:15 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:00:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s voltage off In-Reply-To: <5c67f45f-4872-72a1-67aa-b9966573261b@psln.com> References: <5c67f45f-4872-72a1-67aa-b9966573261b@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill; The Mate 3s has calibration offset screens for both the inverter(s) and charge controller(s). Main menu -> Settings -> Inverter -> Calibrate (#13) Main menu -> Settings -> Charge Controller -> Calibrate (#8) Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 8:39 AM frenergy wrote: > We're setting up charge points for a new pack of SimpliPhi 3.8 > batteries. Needed to use the voltage "offset" function in the FM80's a > bit to jive with the 2, Fluke 87 meters we got testing the actual > voltage at the battery bus bars. However. the Mate3s is reading .6 > volts high and can't find an offset function in the Mate's menus. > Anybody familiar with the path to get there, if its there? Assuming the > Mate uses the voltage readings its showing on the display, this could > have a significant impact on battery health. Do I need to calibrate > both my Flukes?...or buy a new Fluke that's not 22 years old? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 11:37:43 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:37:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s voltage off In-Reply-To: References: <5c67f45f-4872-72a1-67aa-b9966573261b@psln.com> Message-ID: Do you have a flexnet DC? I believe that is the master voltage indicator that's displayed on the mate. There is an adjustment potentiometer for that in the flexnet. Search for flexnet DC calibration and you will see a document from outback for that. This can make a huge difference for accurate soc calcs for lithium. On Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:00 AM Dan Fink wrote: > Bill; The Mate 3s has calibration offset screens for both the inverter(s) > and charge controller(s). > > Main menu -> Settings -> Inverter -> Calibrate (#13) > Main menu -> Settings -> Charge Controller -> Calibrate (#8) > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 8:39 AM frenergy wrote: > >> We're setting up charge points for a new pack of SimpliPhi 3.8 >> batteries. Needed to use the voltage "offset" function in the FM80's a >> bit to jive with the 2, Fluke 87 meters we got testing the actual >> voltage at the battery bus bars. However. the Mate3s is reading .6 >> volts high and can't find an offset function in the Mate's menus. >> Anybody familiar with the path to get there, if its there? Assuming the >> Mate uses the voltage readings its showing on the display, this could >> have a significant impact on battery health. Do I need to calibrate >> both my Flukes?...or buy a new Fluke that's not 22 years old? >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 11:49:54 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:49:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mate 3s voltage off In-Reply-To: References: <5c67f45f-4872-72a1-67aa-b9966573261b@psln.com> Message-ID: https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 11:38 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Do you have a flexnet DC? I believe that is the master voltage indicator > that's displayed on the mate. There is an adjustment potentiometer for that > in the flexnet. Search for flexnet DC calibration and you will see a > document from outback for that. > > This can make a huge difference for accurate soc calcs for lithium. > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:00 AM Dan Fink wrote: > >> Bill; The Mate 3s has calibration offset screens for both the inverter(s) >> and charge controller(s). >> >> Main menu -> Settings -> Inverter -> Calibrate (#13) >> Main menu -> Settings -> Charge Controller -> Calibrate (#8) >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 8:39 AM frenergy wrote: >> >>> We're setting up charge points for a new pack of SimpliPhi 3.8 >>> batteries. Needed to use the voltage "offset" function in the FM80's a >>> bit to jive with the 2, Fluke 87 meters we got testing the actual >>> voltage at the battery bus bars. However. the Mate3s is reading .6 >>> volts high and can't find an offset function in the Mate's menus. >>> Anybody familiar with the path to get there, if its there? Assuming the >>> Mate uses the voltage readings its showing on the display, this could >>> have a significant impact on battery health. Do I need to calibrate >>> both my Flukes?...or buy a new Fluke that's not 22 years old? >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lyons at zapotecenergy.com Tue Apr 27 13:13:39 2021 From: lyons at zapotecenergy.com (Paul Lyons) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:13:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My Kingdom for an ET Solar ET-P660230 230Wp module Message-ID: Dear RE-Wrenches - King Richard the Third had an otherwise good life because he did not have to track down a very specific PV module - just a new horse. Do any of you know where I can find an ET Solar ET-P660230 230Wp module? Thank you, Paul xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Paul Lyons, P.E. Zapotec Energy Inc. 26 Glenwood Ave Cambridge, MA 02139-4708 Tel: 617-547-5900 Fax: 617-547-5901 Mobile: 617-285-0634 Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Apr 26 21:06:15 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 18:06:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: The information from the manufacturer seems entirely untrustworthy for these reasons: 1. The representative is mis-informed about the prevalence of stranding of THHN. 2. It is my understanding the all THHN on the market is now THWN so this designation should be used (I am ready to be corrected on this point as my information is anecdotal). 3. The representative focuses on the sealing of the gland portion of the cable on the THWN insulation which ignores the existence of bulkhead mount MC connectors (I think the nomenclature in the manufacturer’s brochure is “receptacle”). If you are using a bulkhead connector the gland does not exist and any discussion of said gland is therefore irrelevant. When I observe the conductor in a 10 AWG building wire and the conductor in a 10 AWG PV wire I detect absolutely no difference. I firmly believe that you can wire-nut PV wire to building wire in a weatherproof junction box. Gland connectors (by Heyco and others) are readily available so one can run PV wire in a box, strip and connect. Keep in mind weatherproof boxes are hard to hermetically seal so a weep hole in a low point keeps them from filling with rain water or condensate. Weep holes are specifically allowed in the NEC. I detect no difference when observing an MC pin crimped on both PV wire or THWN. See this link for an example of how we recommend transitioning from PV cable to building wire. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Blake Gleason *Sent:* Monday, April 26, 2021 5:41 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Corey, Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be solid vs stranded). All - What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 inside a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why is this so hard for me?? Best, Blake Thanks On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: Blake, In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 connectors.* There are several reasons for this: 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not covered by our certification 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or validation of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We therefore cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV connectors. The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is clearly stated in the assembly instructions. 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, which behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by UL6703. These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli North America. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: Bryan, Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you referenced. Here's the complete text: For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations sometimes 80 °C. THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under the category of a "PVC cable." So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree rating?! Can you help un-confuse me? Thank you! Blake _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner*Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Apr 27 01:23:58 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 01:23:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Wago 221-6XX series connectors, specifically for THWN to Enphase IQ/DG/TC conductor transitions or just THWN splices. On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > Corey, > > Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less > confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be > solid vs stranded). > > All - > What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 inside > a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome > electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. > Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that > purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice > caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. > And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the > compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the > Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't > listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why > is this so hard for me?? > > Best, > Blake > Thanks > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> Blake, >> >> In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information >> directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: >> >> The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 >>> connectors.* There are several reasons for this: >>> 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, >>> which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not >>> covered by our certification >>> 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or validation >>> of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We therefore >>> cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV connectors. >>> The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is clearly >>> stated in the assembly instructions. >>> 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, which >>> behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most >>> widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily >>> deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited >>> cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications >>> where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, >>> THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are >>> absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other >>> PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by >>> UL6703. >> >> >> These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli >> North America. >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: >> >>> >>> Bryan, >>> >>> Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you >>> referenced. Here's the complete text: >>> >>> For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables >>>> made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material >>>> of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >>>> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >>>> sometimes 80 °C. >>> >>> >>> THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under >>> the category of a "PVC cable." >>> >>> So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. >>> But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the >>> third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire >>> type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree >>> rating?! >>> >>> Can you help un-confuse me? >>> >>> Thank you! >>> Blake >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner > Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence > O: 510-845-2997 x128 > C: 510-867-5878 > > 1035 Folger Ave. > Berkeley, CA 94710 > www.sunlightandpower.com > License #326203 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Apr 27 08:22:44 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:22:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On a practical note, MC-4 functions fine with THHN inside a weather proof enclosure. It will not seal, due to the smaller overall diameter of the cable. THHN is rated for 90C. It is not sunlight resistant, and should never be used exposed. --- On 2021-04-26 23:16, frenergy wrote: > Blake, > >             Its great to get definitive clarification on this MC4/THHN > issue, we've been using 4-14 Polaris connectors with good results.  > Being inside a Nema3 can and having silicone grease in the Polaris > makes for a solid, durable connection.  Inspecting some of these that > are now 17 years in the field shows very good condition for the wire > landing in the Polaris and the condition of THWN-2 wire insulation.  > We haven't had the best of luck with Buchanans. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 4/26/2021 5:41 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: >> Corey, >> >> Thank you!  Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less >> confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to >> be solid vs stranded). >> >> All - >> What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 >> inside a junction box?  We used to use split bolts, which make an >> awesome electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily >> serviceable.  Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt >> reliable for that purpose.  Same for WAGO levers.  I hear about people >> using Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of >> crimping problems for another.  And of course, the only problem with >> using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression gland may not be as >> watertight as it is with PVWire, and the Buchanans certainly are not >> watertight.  Terminal blocks generally aren't listed, definitely >> aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows.  Why is this so >> hard for me?? >> >> Best, >> Blake >> Thanks >> > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Apr 27 14:01:07 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:01:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Message-ID: <6sac8shnlasrlvmf5d73uk0q.1619546423653@email.lge.com> However if it is not listed as compatible with it, why use it?-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.orgDate: Tue, Apr 27, 2021 1:42 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right?On a practical note, MC-4 functions fine with THHN inside a weather proof enclosure. It will not seal, due to the smaller overall diameter of the cable. THHN is rated for 90C. It is not sunlight resistant, and should never be used exposed. --- On 2021-04-26 23:16, frenergy wrote: > Blake, > >             Its great to get definitive clarification on this MC4/THHN > issue, we've been using 4-14 Polaris connectors with good results.  > Being inside a Nema3 can and having silicone grease in the Polaris > makes for a solid, durable connection.  Inspecting some of these that > are now 17 years in the field shows very good condition for the wire > landing in the Polaris and the condition of THWN-2 wire insulation.  > We haven't had the best of luck with Buchanans. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 4/26/2021 5:41 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: >> Corey, >> >> Thank you!  Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less >> confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to >> be solid vs stranded). >> >> All - >> What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 >> inside a junction box?  We used to use split bolts, which make an >> awesome electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily >> serviceable.  Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt >> reliable for that purpose.  Same for WAGO levers.  I hear about people >> using Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of >> crimping problems for another.  And of course, the only problem with >> using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression gland may not be as >> watertight as it is with PVWire, and the Buchanans certainly are not >> watertight.  Terminal blocks generally aren't listed, definitely >> aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows.  Why is this so >> hard for me?? >> >> Best, >> Blake >> Thanks >> > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bryan at pv-cables.com Tue Apr 27 14:22:57 2021 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:22:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: <6sac8shnlasrlvmf5d73uk0q.1619546423653@email.lge.com> References: <6sac8shnlasrlvmf5d73uk0q.1619546423653@email.lge.com> Message-ID: <00fb01d73b92$59d75ff0$0d861fd0$@pv-cables.com> Surprised to read no one mentioning the Wiley Pass Thru boxes. That is what I used on my house, though I had a cranky inspector and wanted to avoid any conflicts. Yes, they are expensive, but they are UL and easy. Bryan Norkunas . From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 11:01 AM To: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? However if it is not listed as compatible with it, why use it? -Glenn Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. ------ Original message------ From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Date: Tue, Apr 27, 2021 1:42 PM To: RE-wrenches; Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? On a practical note, MC-4 functions fine with THHN inside a weather proof enclosure. It will not seal, due to the smaller overall diameter of the cable. THHN is rated for 90C. It is not sunlight resistant, and should never be used exposed. --- On 2021-04-26 23 :16, frenergy wrote: > Blake, > > Its great to get definitive clarification on this MC4/THHN > issue, we've been using 4-14 Polaris connectors with good results. > Being inside a Nema3 can and having silicone grease in the Polaris > makes for a solid, durable connection. Inspecting some of these that > are now 17 years in the field shows very good condition for the wire > landing in the Polaris and the condition of THWN-2 wire insulation. > We haven't had the best of luck with Buchanans. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 4/26/2021 5:41 PM, Blake Gleason wrote: >> Corey, >> >> Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less >> confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to >> be solid vs stranded). >> >> All - >> What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 >> inside a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an >> awesome electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily >> serviceable. Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt >> reliable for that purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people >> using Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of >> crimping problems for another. And of course, the only problem with >> using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression gland may not be as >> watertight as it is with PVWire, and the Buchanans certainly are not >> watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't listed, definitely >> aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why is this so >> hard for me?? >> >> Best, >> Blake >> Thanks >> > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Apr 27 14:55:25 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:55:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason - I noticed that Tesla is using the Wago connectors in their Powerwalls. They only go up to #10, but they certainly appear to have some advantages such as easy QC inspection, compactness, and price. We are in the process of trying a batch of these out, but I hadn't considered using them in exterior J-boxes. https://www.wago.com/global/electrical-interconnections/discover-installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/221 August On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Wago 221-6XX series connectors, > specifically for THWN to Enphase IQ/DG/TC conductor transitions or just > THWN splices. > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason > wrote: > >> Corey, >> >> Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less >> confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be >> solid vs stranded). >> >> All - >> What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 inside >> a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome >> electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. >> Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that >> purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice >> caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. >> And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the >> compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the >> Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't >> listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why >> is this so hard for me?? >> >> Best, >> Blake >> Thanks >> >> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski >> wrote: >> >>> Blake, >>> >>> In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information >>> directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: >>> >>> The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 >>>> connectors.* There are several reasons for this: >>>> 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, >>>> which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not >>>> covered by our certification >>>> 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or >>>> validation of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We >>>> therefore cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV >>>> connectors. The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is >>>> clearly stated in the assembly instructions. >>>> 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, >>>> which behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most >>>> widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily >>>> deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited >>>> cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications >>>> where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, >>>> THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are >>>> absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other >>>> PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by >>>> UL6703. >>> >>> >>> These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli >>> North America. >>> >>> -- >>> Corey Shalanski >>> Jah Light Solar >>> Portland, Jamaica >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Bryan, >>>> >>>> Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you >>>> referenced. Here's the complete text: >>>> >>>> For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables >>>>> made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material >>>>> of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >>>>> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >>>>> sometimes 80 °C. >>>> >>>> >>>> THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls >>>> under the category of a "PVC cable." >>>> >>>> So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. >>>> But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the >>>> third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire >>>> type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree >>>> rating?! >>>> >>>> Can you help un-confuse me? >>>> >>>> Thank you! >>>> Blake >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner >> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence >> O: 510-845-2997 x128 >> C: 510-867-5878 >> >> 1035 Folger Ave. >> Berkeley, CA 94710 >> www.sunlightandpower.com >> License #326203 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Apr 27 21:10:16 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:10:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: August, Thank you for this suggestion. I went to the site, and under "Two Sizes for All Conductor Types" on that page it appears that there's a model that'll work with 2-10AWG conductors: "With the 6 mm2 (10 AWG) variant, you can connect all conductor types – with cross sections from 0.5 to 6 mm2 (2−10 AWG)". This would contradict what you wrote below, so I'm just checking whether I missed something. Thanks, Allan On 4/27/2021 12:55 PM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Jason - I noticed that Tesla is using the Wago connectors in their > Powerwalls. They only go up to #10, but they certainly appear to have > some advantages such as easy QC inspection, compactness, and price. We > are in the process of trying a batch of these out, but I hadn't > considered using them in exterior J-boxes. > https://www.wago.com/global/electrical-interconnections/discover-installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/221 > > August > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Wago 221-6XX series > connectors, specifically for THWN to Enphase IQ/DG/TC conductor > transitions or just THWN splices. > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason > > > wrote: > > Corey, > Thank you!  Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is > much less confusing (with the exception of the statement about > THHN tending to be solid vs stranded). > All - > What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to > THHN/THWN-2 inside a junction box?  We used to use split > bolts, which make an awesome electrical connection, but are > time-consuming and not easily serviceable.  Wire nuts (the > right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that > purpose.  Same for WAGO levers.  I hear about people using > Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of > crimping problems for another.  And of course, the only > problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression > gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the > Buchanans certainly are not watertight.  Terminal blocks > generally aren't listed, definitely aren't watertight, and > raise inspectors' eyebrows.  Why is this so hard for me?? > Best, > Blake > Thanks > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski > > wrote: > > Blake, > In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing > information directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: > > The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use > THHN wires with MC4 connectors.*  There are > several reasons for this: > 1. _Certification_: our MC4 connectors are > certified to UL6703, which only covers UL4703 PV > wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not > covered by our certification > 2. _Internal validation_: we have no internal > testing or validation of how MC4 or Evo2 > connectors perform with THHN cables.  We therefore > cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables > with our PV connectors.  The allowable cables and > applications for our PV connectors is clearly > stated in the assembly instructions. > 3. _Construction_: THHN cables use very rigid PVC > insulators, which behave very differently than > XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most widely > used on PV wires.  PVC has a very low elastic > range and easily deforms permanently under > load/thermal cycling.  It is not a well-suited > cable for higher temperature or high temperature > fluctuating applications where compression-type > cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used.  Also, > THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core > cables, which are absolutely not allowed with > crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other PV > connector on the market for that matter). They > also are not allowed by UL6703. > > These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who > works for Stäubli North America. > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM > > wrote: > > > Bryan, > Thank you for the link.  I am confused by the "PVC" > section you referenced.  Here's the complete text: > >   For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of > PVC cables. Cables made from PVC can be connected > to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material of the > connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected > to PVC. PVC cables usually have an upper limiting > temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations > sometimes 80 °C. > > THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume > that it falls under the category of a "PVC cable." > So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not > allowed by Staubli.  But then the second sentence > seems to say that is IS allowed.  And then the third > sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most > common PVC wire type of all (in the US), which is > THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree rating?! > Can you help un-confuse me? > Thank you! > Blake > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauraconchelos at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 22:43:19 2021 From: lauraconchelos at gmail.com (Laura Conchelos) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 20:43:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW shutting down at the same time every night Message-ID: I have two Schneider XW 6848s in an off-grid system. I've had some issues I think we've gotten figured out in relation to the configuration of the inverters as master/slave. Now it seems the inverters shut down for ten seconds or so in the evening at 7:59. It doesn't seem to have done it last night. Though every other night since I reconfigured them it's done this. The reconfiguring might be a red herring, who knows. Anyone else run into something like this? Laura -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 23:31:57 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 21:31:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW shutting down at the same time every night In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Laura, Yes, we encountered something similar but not the same. It was a single XW+5548. It would, very briefly, lose power occasionally, nothing at a specific time, but consistently, a few times per week. I fixed it by reinstalling the latest firmware. Its been fine for about a year now so it must have had a bit of corrupted code. Good luck! On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 8:43 PM Laura Conchelos wrote: > I have two Schneider XW 6848s in an off-grid system. I've had some issues > I think we've gotten figured out in relation to the configuration of the > inverters as master/slave. > > Now it seems the inverters shut down for ten seconds or so in the evening > at 7:59. It doesn't seem to have done it last night. Though every other > night since I reconfigured them it's done this. The reconfiguring might be > a red herring, who knows. > > Anyone else run into something like this? > > Laura > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Apr 28 09:59:53 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 06:59:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Allan - Good question, I noticed that too. I think it is a typo, and they mean 20 AWG through 10 AWG. See attached datasheet. 6 mm^2 is close to #9-#10 AWG. There are other variants available as well with smaller conductor sizes for data cables and more ports for connecting in parallel. August On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 6:10 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > August, > > Thank you for this suggestion. I went to the site, and under "Two Sizes > for All Conductor Types" on that page it appears that there's a model > that'll work with 2-10AWG conductors: > > "With the 6 mm2 (10 AWG) variant, you can connect all conductor types – > with cross sections from 0.5 to 6 mm2 (2−10 AWG)". > > This would contradict what you wrote below, so I'm just checking whether I > missed something. > > Thanks, Allan > On 4/27/2021 12:55 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Jason - I noticed that Tesla is using the Wago connectors in their > Powerwalls. They only go up to #10, but they certainly appear to have some > advantages such as easy QC inspection, compactness, and price. We are in > the process of trying a batch of these out, but I hadn't considered using > them in exterior J-boxes. > > https://www.wago.com/global/electrical-interconnections/discover-installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/221 > August > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Wago 221-6XX series connectors, >> specifically for THWN to Enphase IQ/DG/TC conductor transitions or just >> THWN splices. >> >> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason >> wrote: >> >>> Corey, >>> Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less >>> confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be >>> solid vs stranded). >>> All - >>> What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 >>> inside a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome >>> electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. >>> Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that >>> purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice >>> caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. >>> And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the >>> compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the >>> Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't >>> listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why >>> is this so hard for me?? >>> Best, >>> Blake >>> Thanks >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Blake, >>>> In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information >>>> directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: >>>> >>>> The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 >>>>> connectors.* There are several reasons for this: >>>>> 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, >>>>> which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not >>>>> covered by our certification >>>>> 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or >>>>> validation of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We >>>>> therefore cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV >>>>> connectors. The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is >>>>> clearly stated in the assembly instructions. >>>>> 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, >>>>> which behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most >>>>> widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily >>>>> deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited >>>>> cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications >>>>> where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, >>>>> THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are >>>>> absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other >>>>> PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by >>>>> UL6703. >>>>> >>>> These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli >>>> North America. >>>> -- >>>> Corey Shalanski >>>> Jah Light Solar >>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bryan, >>>>> Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you >>>>> referenced. Here's the complete text: >>>>> >>>>>> For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables >>>>>> made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material >>>>>> of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >>>>>> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >>>>>> sometimes 80 °C. >>>>>> >>>>> THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls >>>>> under the category of a "PVC cable." >>>>> So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. >>>>> But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the >>>>> third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire >>>>> type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree >>>>> rating?! >>>>> Can you help un-confuse me? >>>>> Thank you! >>>>> Blake >>>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Data_Sheet221-612_28.04.2021.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 934819 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 10:37:53 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:37:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keep in mind that Wagos, Polaris lugs, Multi-tap Burndy lugs are rated for 600V. I can see this being a possible use for MC4 connectors in a higher voltage splice scenario, because of their 1000V/1500V ratings. On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:00 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Allan - Good question, I noticed that too. I think it is a typo, and > they mean 20 AWG through 10 AWG. See attached datasheet. 6 mm^2 is close > to #9-#10 AWG. There are other variants available as well with smaller > conductor sizes for data cables and more ports for connecting in parallel. > > August > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 6:10 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > >> August, >> >> Thank you for this suggestion. I went to the site, and under "Two Sizes >> for All Conductor Types" on that page it appears that there's a model >> that'll work with 2-10AWG conductors: >> >> "With the 6 mm2 (10 AWG) variant, you can connect all conductor types – >> with cross sections from 0.5 to 6 mm2 (2−10 AWG)". >> >> This would contradict what you wrote below, so I'm just checking whether >> I missed something. >> >> Thanks, Allan >> On 4/27/2021 12:55 PM, August Goers wrote: >> >> Hi Jason - I noticed that Tesla is using the Wago connectors in their >> Powerwalls. They only go up to #10, but they certainly appear to have some >> advantages such as easy QC inspection, compactness, and price. We are in >> the process of trying a batch of these out, but I hadn't considered using >> them in exterior J-boxes. >> >> https://www.wago.com/global/electrical-interconnections/discover-installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/221 >> August >> >> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Wago 221-6XX series connectors, >>> specifically for THWN to Enphase IQ/DG/TC conductor transitions or just >>> THWN splices. >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Corey, >>>> Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less >>>> confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be >>>> solid vs stranded). >>>> All - >>>> What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 >>>> inside a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome >>>> electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. >>>> Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that >>>> purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice >>>> caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. >>>> And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the >>>> compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the >>>> Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't >>>> listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why >>>> is this so hard for me?? >>>> Best, >>>> Blake >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Blake, >>>>> In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information >>>>> directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: >>>>> >>>>> The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 >>>>>> connectors.* There are several reasons for this: >>>>>> 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, >>>>>> which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not >>>>>> covered by our certification >>>>>> 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or >>>>>> validation of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We >>>>>> therefore cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV >>>>>> connectors. The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is >>>>>> clearly stated in the assembly instructions. >>>>>> 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, >>>>>> which behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most >>>>>> widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily >>>>>> deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited >>>>>> cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications >>>>>> where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, >>>>>> THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are >>>>>> absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other >>>>>> PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by >>>>>> UL6703. >>>>>> >>>>> These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for >>>>> Stäubli North America. >>>>> -- >>>>> Corey Shalanski >>>>> Jah Light Solar >>>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bryan, >>>>>> Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you >>>>>> referenced. Here's the complete text: >>>>>> >>>>>>> For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables >>>>>>> made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material >>>>>>> of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >>>>>>> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >>>>>>> sometimes 80 °C. >>>>>>> >>>>>> THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls >>>>>> under the category of a "PVC cable." >>>>>> So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by >>>>>> Staubli. But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. >>>>>> And then the third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most >>>>>> common PVC wire type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a >>>>>> 90 degree rating?! >>>>>> Can you help un-confuse me? >>>>>> Thank you! >>>>>> Blake >>>>>> >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Apr 28 10:50:43 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 07:50:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider XW shutting down at the same time every night In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0203a01a23e9cc2a798349d70c0b021b@127.0.0.1> For this to happen, XW should be logging warnings or faults. Have you checked? This problem is probably related to the master / slave config. If this is XW+, there was firmware for that back in the day for fault 55 an EPROM failure that messed up timing. It was very repeatable at a certain time of day. If this is XW Pro disregard. You really need to differentiate the two different models as they are quite different in some regards. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 20:43:19 -0600, Laura Conchelos wrote: I have two Schneider XW 6848s in an off-grid system. I've had some issues I think we've gotten figured out in relation to the configuration of the inverters as master/slave. Now it seems the inverters shut down for ten seconds or so in the evening at 7:59. It doesn't seem to have done it last night. Though every other night since I reconfigured them it's done this. The reconfiguring might be a red herring, who knows. Anyone else run into something like this? Laura Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 11:27:49 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 10:27:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Message-ID: Chris's reminder is a good one—the 600V rating of most insulated "multi-tap" connectors pretty much limits their use to residential systems. I would also keep in mind that those connectors generally have a torque spec. I've definitely seen examples of meltdowns caused by poor terminations - either the compression screw isn't torqued properly or the conductor isn't fully inserted. To help eliminate the latter case, we used to favor the Burndy models (e.g., BIT4 ) because they had a transparent case; I see that Polaris also now offers transparent models (e.g., IT-4C ). -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:38 AM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Keep in mind that Wagos, Polaris lugs, Multi-tap Burndy lugs are rated for > 600V. I can see this being a possible use for MC4 connectors in a higher > voltage splice scenario, because of their 1000V/1500V ratings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Apr 28 12:00:43 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:00:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the biggest issue with poor connections on the Polaris type blocks is not stripping enough insulation off the wire. They need much more stripped off than other types of connectors.  With too much insulation remaining, the screw tightens on the insulation, and the electrical connection is just some loose copper tickling the inside of the barrel.  You wouldn't notice it at first with testing, but it would definitely start to over heat over time.  Might catch it with a FLIR though. What other connectors are 1000 v rated?  This seems like more an issue of having the manufacturer's retest to 1000v.  I can't imagine those blocks not being able to handle 1000v, but..... Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/28/21 11:27 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > Chris's reminder is a good one—the 600V rating of most insulated > "multi-tap" connectors pretty much limits their use to residential > systems. I would also keep in mind that those connectors generally > have a torque spec. I've definitely seen examples of meltdowns caused > by poor terminations - either the compression screw isn't torqued > properly or the conductor isn't fully inserted. To help eliminate the > latter case, we used to favor the Burndy models (e.g., BIT4 > ) > because they had a transparent case; I see that Polaris also now > offers transparent models (e.g., IT-4C > ). > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:38 AM Chris Sparadeo > > wrote: > > Keep in mind that Wagos, Polaris lugs, Multi-tap Burndy lugs are > rated for 600V. I can see this being a possible use for MC4 > connectors in a higher voltage splice scenario, because of their > 1000V/1500V ratings. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Apr 28 12:54:12 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:54:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009a01d73c4f$1fb445f0$5f1cd1d0$@glbcc.com> I also have not been able to confirm that the Wagos are listed for use with DC. We have been using them on AC circuits for almost a year now. Also not listed for moist or wet environments… -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Chris Sparadeo Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2021 10:38 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Keep in mind that Wagos, Polaris lugs, Multi-tap Burndy lugs are rated for 600V. I can see this being a possible use for MC4 connectors in a higher voltage splice scenario, because of their 1000V/1500V ratings. On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:00 AM August Goers > wrote: Hi Allan - Good question, I noticed that too. I think it is a typo, and they mean 20 AWG through 10 AWG. See attached datasheet. 6 mm^2 is close to #9-#10 AWG. There are other variants available as well with smaller conductor sizes for data cables and more ports for connecting in parallel. August On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 6:10 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: August, Thank you for this suggestion. I went to the site, and under "Two Sizes for All Conductor Types" on that page it appears that there's a model that'll work with 2-10AWG conductors: "With the 6 mm2 (10 AWG) variant, you can connect all conductor types – with cross sections from 0.5 to 6 mm2 (2−10 AWG)". This would contradict what you wrote below, so I'm just checking whether I missed something. Thanks, Allan On 4/27/2021 12:55 PM, August Goers wrote: Hi Jason - I noticed that Tesla is using the Wago connectors in their Powerwalls. They only go up to #10, but they certainly appear to have some advantages such as easy QC inspection, compactness, and price. We are in the process of trying a batch of these out, but I hadn't considered using them in exterior J-boxes. https://www.wago.com/global/electrical-interconnections/discover-installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/221 August On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Wago 221-6XX series connectors, specifically for THWN to Enphase IQ/DG/TC conductor transitions or just THWN splices. On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason > wrote: Corey, Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be solid vs stranded). All - What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 inside a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why is this so hard for me?? Best, Blake Thanks On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski > wrote: Blake, In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: The answer is categorically no: you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 connectors. There are several reasons for this: 1. Certification: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not covered by our certification 2. Internal validation: we have no internal testing or validation of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We therefore cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV connectors. The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is clearly stated in the assembly instructions. 3. Construction: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, which behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by UL6703. These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli North America. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM > wrote: Bryan, Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you referenced. Here's the complete text: For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations sometimes 80 °C. THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls under the category of a "PVC cable." So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree rating?! Can you help un-confuse me? Thank you! Blake List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Apr 28 03:07:54 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 03:07:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 0.5 to 6 mm2 is #20-#10 AWG On Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:10 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > August, > > Thank you for this suggestion. I went to the site, and under "Two Sizes > for All Conductor Types" on that page it appears that there's a model > that'll work with 2-10AWG conductors: > > "With the 6 mm2 (10 AWG) variant, you can connect all conductor types – > with cross sections from 0.5 to 6 mm2 (2−10 AWG)". > > This would contradict what you wrote below, so I'm just checking whether I > missed something. > > Thanks, Allan > On 4/27/2021 12:55 PM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Jason - I noticed that Tesla is using the Wago connectors in their > Powerwalls. They only go up to #10, but they certainly appear to have some > advantages such as easy QC inspection, compactness, and price. We are in > the process of trying a batch of these out, but I hadn't considered using > them in exterior J-boxes. > > https://www.wago.com/global/electrical-interconnections/discover-installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/221 > August > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 10:42 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I'd be interested to hear thoughts on Wago 221-6XX series connectors, >> specifically for THWN to Enphase IQ/DG/TC conductor transitions or just >> THWN splices. >> >> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason >> wrote: >> >>> Corey, >>> Thank you! Agreed, the message from Staubli's Eng dept is much less >>> confusing (with the exception of the statement about THHN tending to be >>> solid vs stranded). >>> All - >>> What are you folks using to transition from PV Wire to THHN/THWN-2 >>> inside a junction box? We used to use split bolts, which make an awesome >>> electrical connection, but are time-consuming and not easily serviceable. >>> Wire nuts (the right ones) are Listed, but never felt reliable for that >>> purpose. Same for WAGO levers. I hear about people using Buchanan splice >>> caps, but I wonder about trading one set of crimping problems for another. >>> And of course, the only problem with using THHN in an MC4 is that the >>> compression gland may not be as watertight as it is with PVWire, and the >>> Buchanans certainly are not watertight. Terminal blocks generally aren't >>> listed, definitely aren't watertight, and raise inspectors' eyebrows. Why >>> is this so hard for me?? >>> Best, >>> Blake >>> Thanks >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:19 PM Corey Shalanski >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Blake, >>>> In addition to Bryan's notes, here is some unconfusing information >>>> directly from Stäubli's engineering dept: >>>> >>>> The answer is categorically no: *you cannot use THHN wires with MC4 >>>>> connectors.* There are several reasons for this: >>>>> 1. *Certification*: our MC4 connectors are certified to UL6703, >>>>> which only covers UL4703 PV wire or USE2 cable. Any other wire type is not >>>>> covered by our certification >>>>> 2. *Internal validation*: we have no internal testing or >>>>> validation of how MC4 or Evo2 connectors perform with THHN cables. We >>>>> therefore cannot warranty / accept the use of THHN cables with our PV >>>>> connectors. The allowable cables and applications for our PV connectors is >>>>> clearly stated in the assembly instructions. >>>>> 3. *Construction*: THHN cables use very rigid PVC insulators, >>>>> which behave very differently than XPLE or TPE insulators that are the most >>>>> widely used on PV wires. PVC has a very low elastic range and easily >>>>> deforms permanently under load/thermal cycling. It is not a well-suited >>>>> cable for higher temperature or high temperature fluctuating applications >>>>> where compression-type cable seals (i.e. cable glands) are used. Also, >>>>> THHN cables tend to be single-conductor solid core cables, which are >>>>> absolutely not allowed with crimp terminations like the MC4 (or any other >>>>> PV connector on the market for that matter). They also are not allowed by >>>>> UL6703. >>>>> >>>> These comments were forwarded to me by Jeff Wang, who works for Stäubli >>>> North America. >>>> -- >>>> Corey Shalanski >>>> Jah Light Solar >>>> Portland, Jamaica >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 9:23 AM wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bryan, >>>>> Thank you for the link. I am confused by the "PVC" section you >>>>> referenced. Here's the complete text: >>>>> >>>>>> For safety reasons Stäubli prohibits the use of PVC cables. Cables >>>>>> made from PVC can be connected to MC4-Evo 2 since the insulation material >>>>>> of the connector (Polyamide) is suitable to be connected to PVC. PVC cables >>>>>> usually have an upper limiting temperature of 70 °C, in fixed installations >>>>>> sometimes 80 °C. >>>>>> >>>>> THHN/THWN-2 is made with PVC insulation, so I assume that it falls >>>>> under the category of a "PVC cable." >>>>> So, the first sentence seems to say that it's not allowed by Staubli. >>>>> But then the second sentence seems to say that is IS allowed. And then the >>>>> third sentence doesn't seem to be contemplating the most common PVC wire >>>>> type of all (in the US), which is THHN/THWN-2, which has a 90 degree >>>>> rating?! >>>>> Can you help un-confuse me? >>>>> Thank you! >>>>> Blake >>>>> >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Apr 28 18:13:51 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 15:13:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great discussion, all. Thank you. For 1000V (where we also tend to favor MC-style connectors), we are connecting PVWire to 1000V-rated XHHW-2 (which is not PVC), and always inside a 3R box. Blake On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 9:00 AM Ray wrote: > I think the biggest issue with poor connections on the Polaris type blocks > is not stripping enough insulation off the wire. They need much more > stripped off than other types of connectors. With too much insulation > remaining, the screw tightens on the insulation, and the electrical > connection is just some loose copper tickling the inside of the barrel. > You wouldn't notice it at first with testing, but it would definitely start > to over heat over time. Might catch it with a FLIR though. > > What other connectors are 1000 v rated? This seems like more an issue of > having the manufacturer's retest to 1000v. I can't imagine those blocks > not being able to handle 1000v, but..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/28/21 11:27 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Chris's reminder is a good one—the 600V rating of most insulated > "multi-tap" connectors pretty much limits their use to residential systems. > I would also keep in mind that those connectors generally have a torque > spec. I've definitely seen examples of meltdowns caused by poor > terminations - either the compression screw isn't torqued properly or the > conductor isn't fully inserted. To help eliminate the latter case, we used > to favor the Burndy models (e.g., BIT4 > ) > because they had a transparent case; I see that Polaris also now offers > transparent models (e.g., IT-4C > > ). > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:38 AM Chris Sparadeo > wrote: > >> Keep in mind that Wagos, Polaris lugs, Multi-tap Burndy lugs are rated >> for 600V. I can see this being a possible use for MC4 connectors in a >> higher voltage splice scenario, because of their 1000V/1500V ratings. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericstev at vermontel.net Wed Apr 28 21:19:59 2021 From: ericstev at vermontel.net (ericstev at vermontel.net) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:19:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c22bba2a7355941c01dd4e571e2fa38@vermontel.net> Wrenches, I am normally a lurker on the List, but I would like to add a fact observation and a personal preference to the topics raised by this discussion. First, THWN does have PVC as its primary insulation, but it is sheathed in Nylon which is a polyamide plastic. Therefore the compatibility with MC4 connectors should be polyamide being squeezed by the restraining bushing in the MC4, not PVC. I prefer Buchanan copper crimp connectors when splicing PV wire to THWN-2 in a roof junction box. The bared wires should be lightly doped with NO-OX-ID A-Special grease https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html before sleeving and crimping with the crimp sleeve to repel entry of moisture and corrosive gasses into the wire joint. I consider the crimped joint to be superior to any screw-clamped joint that would be made in a Polaris style connector. I also drill weepage holes in the bottom corner of the junction box to mitigate any collection of water. Eric Stevens, Vermont Made Energy On 2021-04-28 18:16, re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: > I think the biggest issue with poor connections on the Polaris type blocks > is not stripping enough insulation off the wire. They need much more > stripped off than other types of connectors. With too much insulation > remaining, the screw tightens on the insulation, and the electrical > connection is just some loose copper tickling the inside of the barrel. > You wouldn't notice it at first with testing, but it would definitely start > to over heat over time. Might catch it with a FLIR though. > > What other connectors are 1000 v rated? This seems like more an issue of > having the manufacturer's retest to 1000v. I can't imagine those blocks > not being able to handle 1000v, but..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/28/21 11:27 AM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > > Chris's reminder is a good one?the 600V rating of most insulated > "multi-tap" connectors pretty much limits their use to residential systems. > I would also keep in mind that those connectors generally have a torque > spec. I've definitely seen examples of meltdowns caused by poor > terminations - either the compression screw isn't torqued properly or the > conductor isn't fully inserted. To help eliminate the latter case, we used > to favor the Burndy models (e.g., BIT4 > ) > because they had a transparent case; I see that Polaris also now offers > transparent models (e.g., IT-4C > > ). > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:38 AM Chris Sparadeo Keep in mind that Wagos, Polaris lugs, Multi-tap Burndy lugs are rated > for 600V. I can see this being a possible use for MC4 connectors in a > higher voltage splice scenario, because of their 1000V/1500V ratings. > > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: MC4s are listed for THWN, right? (Blake Gleason) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 15:13:51 -0700 > From: Blake Gleason > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Great discussion, all. Thank you. > > For 1000V (where we also tend to favor MC-style connectors), we are > connecting PVWire to 1000V-rated XHHW-2 (which is not PVC), and always > inside a 3R box. > > Blake > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 9:00 AM Ray wrote: ***************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Apr 29 09:43:29 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 06:43:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: <3c22bba2a7355941c01dd4e571e2fa38@vermontel.net> References: <3c22bba2a7355941c01dd4e571e2fa38@vermontel.net> Message-ID: <4fd8b9e9-8379-8c2c-2e4e-03e59a9eb12d@psln.com> Eric,             I like your idea of drilling the weepage holes as long as they are not big enough to allow critters like wasps to make a home inside the J-box.  We will use aluminum tape on unused mounting holes in the back of the box for the same reason. Lurkers welcome. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 4/28/2021 6:19 PM, ericstev at vermontel.net wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I am normally a lurker on the List, but I would like to add a fact > observation and a personal preference to the topics raised by this > discussion. > > First, THWN does have PVC as its primary insulation, but it is > sheathed in Nylon which is a polyamide plastic.  Therefore the > compatibility with MC4 connectors should be polyamide being squeezed > by the restraining bushing in the MC4, not PVC. > > I prefer Buchanan copper crimp connectors when splicing PV wire to > THWN-2 in a roof junction box.  The bared wires should be lightly > doped with NO-OX-ID A-Special grease > https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html > before > sleeving and crimping with the crimp sleeve to repel entry of moisture > and corrosive gasses into the wire joint.  I consider the crimped > joint to be superior to any screw-clamped joint that would be made in > a Polaris style connector.  I also drill weepage holes in the bottom > corner of the junction box to mitigate any collection of water. > > Eric Stevens, Vermont Made Energy > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 29 11:41:02 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 11:41:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: <4fd8b9e9-8379-8c2c-2e4e-03e59a9eb12d@psln.com> References: <3c22bba2a7355941c01dd4e571e2fa38@vermontel.net> <4fd8b9e9-8379-8c2c-2e4e-03e59a9eb12d@psln.com> Message-ID: <72ea69ee-a3f1-5625-9df1-932b7811bc3e@solarray.com> I have been busted by inspectors for "modifying a UL device in a way that is not permitted in its listing", or something like that.  While weep holes make all the sense in the world, and I have commonly seen 1/4" holes drilled in LBs for ground wires, etc; one out of ten AHJs might not like it. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/29/21 9:43 AM, frenergy wrote: > Eric, > >             I like your idea of drilling the weepage holes as long as > they are not big enough to allow critters like wasps to make a home > inside the J-box.  We will use aluminum tape on unused mounting holes > in the back of the box for the same reason. Lurkers welcome. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 4/28/2021 6:19 PM, ericstev at vermontel.net wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I am normally a lurker on the List, but I would like to add a fact >> observation and a personal preference to the topics raised by this >> discussion. >> >> First, THWN does have PVC as its primary insulation, but it is >> sheathed in Nylon which is a polyamide plastic.  Therefore the >> compatibility with MC4 connectors should be polyamide being squeezed >> by the restraining bushing in the MC4, not PVC. >> >> I prefer Buchanan copper crimp connectors when splicing PV wire to >> THWN-2 in a roof junction box.  The bared wires should be lightly >> doped with NO-OX-ID A-Special grease >> https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html >> before >> sleeving and crimping with the crimp sleeve to repel entry of >> moisture and corrosive gasses into the wire joint.  I consider the >> crimped joint to be superior to any screw-clamped joint that would be >> made in a Polaris style connector.  I also drill weepage holes in the >> bottom corner of the junction box to mitigate any collection of water. >> >> Eric Stevens, Vermont Made Energy >> >> > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Thu Apr 29 11:41:01 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 11:41:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: <4fd8b9e9-8379-8c2c-2e4e-03e59a9eb12d@psln.com> References: <3c22bba2a7355941c01dd4e571e2fa38@vermontel.net> <4fd8b9e9-8379-8c2c-2e4e-03e59a9eb12d@psln.com> Message-ID: <006901d73d0e$0fae8110$2f0b8330$@glbcc.com> NEC 314.15 discusses drainage openings that can be made in enclosures. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 9:43 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? Eric, I like your idea of drilling the weepage holes as long as they are not big enough to allow critters like wasps to make a home inside the J-box. We will use aluminum tape on unused mounting holes in the back of the box for the same reason. Lurkers welcome. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 4/28/2021 6:19 PM, ericstev at vermontel.net wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I am normally a lurker on the List, but I would like to add a fact > observation and a personal preference to the topics raised by this > discussion. > > First, THWN does have PVC as its primary insulation, but it is > sheathed in Nylon which is a polyamide plastic. Therefore the > compatibility with MC4 connectors should be polyamide being squeezed > by the restraining bushing in the MC4, not PVC. > > I prefer Buchanan copper crimp connectors when splicing PV wire to > THWN-2 in a roof junction box. The bared wires should be lightly > doped with NO-OX-ID A-Special grease > https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html > before > sleeving and crimping with the crimp sleeve to repel entry of moisture > and corrosive gasses into the wire joint. I consider the crimped > joint to be superior to any screw-clamped joint that would be made in > a Polaris style connector. I also drill weepage holes in the bottom > corner of the junction box to mitigate any collection of water. > > Eric Stevens, Vermont Made Energy > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Thu Apr 29 11:45:51 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 11:45:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: <006901d73d0e$0fae8110$2f0b8330$@glbcc.com> References: <3c22bba2a7355941c01dd4e571e2fa38@vermontel.net> <4fd8b9e9-8379-8c2c-2e4e-03e59a9eb12d@psln.com> <006901d73d0e$0fae8110$2f0b8330$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <83c662f8-7b0e-d7c4-eee4-b28fc3e5fdee@solarray.com> Hi Glenn; Ahh that's new from NEC 2014.  Thanks for pointing that out, and scratch my previous comment based on experiences in 2008. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 4/29/21 11:41 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > NEC 314.15 discusses drainage openings that can be made in enclosures. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 9:43 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? > > Eric, > > I like your idea of drilling the weepage holes as long as they are not big enough to allow critters like wasps to make a home inside the J-box. We will use aluminum tape on unused mounting holes in the back of the box for the same reason. Lurkers welcome. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 4/28/2021 6:19 PM, ericstev at vermontel.net wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> I am normally a lurker on the List, but I would like to add a fact >> observation and a personal preference to the topics raised by this >> discussion. >> >> First, THWN does have PVC as its primary insulation, but it is >> sheathed in Nylon which is a polyamide plastic. Therefore the >> compatibility with MC4 connectors should be polyamide being squeezed >> by the restraining bushing in the MC4, not PVC. >> >> I prefer Buchanan copper crimp connectors when splicing PV wire to >> THWN-2 in a roof junction box. The bared wires should be lightly >> doped with NO-OX-ID A-Special grease >> https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html >> before >> sleeving and crimping with the crimp sleeve to repel entry of moisture >> and corrosive gasses into the wire joint. I consider the crimped >> joint to be superior to any screw-clamped joint that would be made in >> a Polaris style connector. I also drill weepage holes in the bottom >> corner of the junction box to mitigate any collection of water. >> >> Eric Stevens, Vermont Made Energy >> >> > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Apr 29 15:10:23 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 15:10:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? In-Reply-To: <83c662f8-7b0e-d7c4-eee4-b28fc3e5fdee@solarray.com> References: <3c22bba2a7355941c01dd4e571e2fa38@vermontel.net> <4fd8b9e9-8379-8c2c-2e4e-03e59a9eb12d@psln.com> <006901d73d0e$0fae8110$2f0b8330$@glbcc.com> <83c662f8-7b0e-d7c4-eee4-b28fc3e5fdee@solarray.com> Message-ID: Some junction boxes have specific instructions for weep holes. For scepter PVC junction boxes you can drill a 3/16 inch hole in the bottom to make a nema 4 enclosure nema 3R. The instructions are etched into the bottom of the box. Jason On Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:46 AM Ray wrote: > Hi Glenn; > > Ahh that's new from NEC 2014. Thanks for pointing that out, and scratch > my previous comment based on experiences in 2008. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 4/29/21 11:41 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: > > NEC 314.15 discusses drainage openings that can be made in enclosures. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of frenergy > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 9:43 AM > > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] MC4s are listed for THWN, right? > > > > Eric, > > > > I like your idea of drilling the weepage holes as long as > they are not big enough to allow critters like wasps to make a home inside > the J-box. We will use aluminum tape on unused mounting holes in the back > of the box for the same reason. Lurkers welcome. > > > > Bill > > > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > > > On 4/28/2021 6:19 PM, ericstev at vermontel.net wrote: > >> Wrenches, > >> > >> I am normally a lurker on the List, but I would like to add a fact > >> observation and a personal preference to the topics raised by this > >> discussion. > >> > >> First, THWN does have PVC as its primary insulation, but it is > >> sheathed in Nylon which is a polyamide plastic. Therefore the > >> compatibility with MC4 connectors should be polyamide being squeezed > >> by the restraining bushing in the MC4, not PVC. > >> > >> I prefer Buchanan copper crimp connectors when splicing PV wire to > >> THWN-2 in a roof junction box. The bared wires should be lightly > >> doped with NO-OX-ID A-Special grease > >> https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html > >> before > >> sleeving and crimping with the crimp sleeve to repel entry of moisture > >> and corrosive gasses into the wire joint. I consider the crimped > >> joint to be superior to any screw-clamped joint that would be made in > >> a Polaris style connector. I also drill weepage holes in the bottom > >> corner of the junction box to mitigate any collection of water. > >> > >> Eric Stevens, Vermont Made Energy > >> > >> > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat May 1 15:46:37 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 12:46:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question Message-ID: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> Friends: After years of not quite understanding the intricacies of the newer, more complicated utility rate schedules I have spent the last 72 hours diving deeply into the rabbit hole. I have one question I need answered. Maybe someone has the answer. If you are on a tiered electric utility rate I know you pay more for energy after you exceed certain daily amounts—the baseline. I am clear that if you avoid paying the higher rates, the value of the energy you generate is equal to the money you save. However if you ratchet your daily usage below zero and are net-exporting for part of a day, at what value are you credited in an NEM contract? Is it: You get the baseline rate no matter how much energy you export. Or is it: After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting credited at the over-baseline rate. Or is it something different altogether. If anyone knows the answer to this arcane question I would be very grateful to learn it. It may vary from utility to utility or plan to plan. PG&E E-6 is the tiered rate I most commonly encounter. If any of you are particularly masochistic you can review some work I have published on the subject here: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html This is an intricate subject and I believe anyone working in grid-tied solar should have at least a passing familiarity with the topic. It affects the realized benefits of investing in grid-tied solar. Thanks again for being the great group of friends that you are. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat May 1 18:16:18 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 15:16:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question In-Reply-To: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Currently with PG&E , you buy and sell at what ever rate you are on, Peak = peak, off peak =off peak, On Sat, May 1, 2021, 3:02 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > After years of not quite understanding the intricacies of the newer, more > complicated utility rate schedules I have spent the last 72 hours diving > deeply into the rabbit hole. I have one question I need answered. Maybe > someone has the answer. > > > > If you are on a tiered electric utility rate I know you pay more for > energy after you exceed certain daily amounts—the baseline. I am clear > that if you avoid paying the higher rates, the value of the energy you > generate is equal to the money you save. However if you ratchet your daily > usage below zero and are net-exporting for part of a day, at what value are > you credited in an NEM contract? > > > > Is it: You get the baseline rate no matter how much energy you export. > > > > Or is it: After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting > credited at the over-baseline rate. > > > > Or is it something different altogether. > > > > If anyone knows the answer to this arcane question I would be very > grateful to learn it. It may vary from utility to utility or plan to > plan. PG&E E-6 is the tiered rate I most commonly encounter. > > > > If any of you are particularly masochistic you can review some work I have > published on the subject here: > > > https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html > > > > This is an intricate subject and I believe anyone working in grid-tied > solar should have at least a passing familiarity with the topic. It > affects the realized benefits of investing in grid-tied solar. > > > > Thanks again for being the great group of friends that you are. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sun May 2 10:15:55 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 07:15:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question In-Reply-To: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3cd57a83-5133-4738-cffd-1a8b24e74f96@psln.com> Jerry,             That's the easy answer but this all gets really deep into weeds as unless you're a PG&E smart meter (and we /really/ trust them), you don't know when that E-6 baseline is crossed to know when you're getting or paying the higher rate.  There's 2 things going on, baseline and time-of-use.  Customer usage, cloudy days plus other variables make a precise calculation impossible. A customer might enter the higher-than-baseline rate halfway into the month and then low consumption and sunny days pulls the customer back below baseline, paying the lower rate.             So many headaches, William, I've tried to figure all this out on paper but have relied more on raw experience of what works to zero-out one's bill which with E6 can easily happen with less KWhrs produced than consumed.             I would love to talk to wrenches who can help me with decent rates for AG pumping and the AG-solar destroyer: demand charges. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/1/2021 3:16 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Currently with PG&E , you buy and sell at what ever rate you are on, Peak = peak, off peak =off peak, On Sat, May 1, 2021, 3:02 PM William Miller > wrote: Friends: After years of not quite understanding the intricacies of the newer, more complicated utility rate schedules I have spent the last 72 hours diving deeply into the rabbit hole.  I have one question I need answered.  Maybe someone has the answer. If you are on a tiered electric utility rate I know you pay more for energy after you exceed certain daily amounts—the baseline. I am clear that if you avoid paying the higher rates, the value of the energy you generate is equal to the money you save. However if you ratchet your daily usage below zero and are net-exporting for part of a day, at what value are you credited in an NEM contract? Is it:  You get the baseline rate no matter how much energy you export. Or is it:  After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting credited at the over-baseline rate. Or is it something different altogether. If anyone knows the answer to this arcane question I would be very grateful to learn it.  It may vary from utility to utility or plan to plan.  PG&E E-6 is the tiered rate I most commonly encounter. If any of you are particularly masochistic you can review some work I have published on the subject here: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html This is an intricate subject and I believe anyone working in grid-tied solar should have at least a passing familiarity with the topic.  It affects the realized benefits of investing in grid-tied solar. Thanks again for being the great group of friends that you are. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 On 5/1/2021 12:46 PM, William Miller wrote: -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 2 12:53:58 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 02 May 2021 09:53:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question In-Reply-To: <3cd57a83-5133-4738-cffd-1a8b24e74f96@psln.com> References: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> <3cd57a83-5133-4738-cffd-1a8b24e74f96@psln.com> Message-ID: You guy's all know that utility is not going to get easier to understand. It is going the other way and has been! Some of the AG solar guy's below me in the greatest growing region in the world are probably the best. I can dig up some of their names from the AG shows on radio KMJ in Fresno. The 5 am AG show has alot of solar on it and you can stream it. I am away for a few days but will post something when I get back. Here is a link to KMJ and to the AG solar company. https://www.kmjnow.com/on-air-schedule/ https://pickettsolar.com/industries/agribusiness/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 2 May 2021 07:15:55 -0700, frenergy wrote: Jerry, That's the easy answer but this all gets really deep into weeds as unless you're a PG&E smart meter (and we _really_ trust them), you don't know when that E-6 baseline is crossed to know when you're getting or paying the higher rate. There's 2 things going on, baseline and time-of-use. Customer usage, cloudy days plus other variables make a precise calculation impossible. A customer might enter the higher-than-baseline rate halfway into the month and then low consumption and sunny days pulls the customer back below baseline, paying the lower rate. So many headaches, William, I've tried to figure all this out on paper but have relied more on raw experience of what works to zero-out one's bill which with E6 can easily happen with less KWhrs produced than consumed. I would love to talk to wrenches who can help me with decent rates for AG pumping and the AG-solar destroyer: demand charges. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [3] On 5/1/2021 3:16 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Currently with PG">Friends: After years of not quite understanding the intricacies of the newer, more complicated utility rate schedules I have spent the last 72 hours diving deeply into the rabbit hole. I have one question I need answered. Maybe someone has the answer. If you are on a tiered electric utility rate I know you pay more for energy after you exceed certain daily amounts--the baseline. I am clear that if you avoid paying the higher rates, the value of the energy you generate is equal to the money you save. However if you ratchet your daily usage below zero and are net-exporting for part of a day, at what value are you credited in an NEM contract? Is it: You get the baseline rate no matter how much energy you export. Or is it: After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting credited at the over-baseline rate. Or is it something different altogether. If anyone knows the answer to this arcane question I would be very grateful to learn it. It may vary from utility to utility or plan to plan. PG"> If any of you are particularly masochistic you can review some work I have published on the subject here: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html [5] This is an intricate subject and I believe anyone working in grid-tied solar should have at least a passing familiarity with the topic. It affects the realized benefits of investing in grid-tied solar. Thanks again for being the great group of friends that you are. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [6] CA Lic. 773985 On 5/1/2021 12:46 PM, William Miller wrote: [7] Virus-free. www.avast.com [8] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.frenergy.net [4] mailto:william at millersolar.com [5] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html [6] http://www.millersolar.com/ [7] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [8] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atersol at gmail.com Sun May 2 20:20:49 2021 From: atersol at gmail.com (Antony Tersol) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 17:20:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question Message-ID: PGE: After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting credited at the over-baseline rate. When there were multiple tiers, you got credited for whatever tier the production was in. i.e. baseline rate for the kWh's up to baseline amount, tier 1 rate for next kWh's up to tier 1 limit, etc. At one time there were 5 tiers, then 4, then 3, now 2. Antony Tersol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atersol at gmail.com Sun May 2 20:52:00 2021 From: atersol at gmail.com (Antony Tersol) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 17:52:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The combination of tiers and TOU rates isn't as complicated as it could be, because the rate bumps from being in a higher tier or between off-peak, part-peak and peak are independent. The increase between tiers is the same for all the time periods, and the increase between periods is the same for all tiers. Using E6 as an example: 0.49602 - 0.42018 = 0.07584 summer peak tier difference 0.37758 - 0.30174 = 0.07584 summer part-peak tier difference etc. 0.49602 - 0.37758 = 0.11844 peak to part-peak difference at high tier 0.42018 - 0.30174 = 0.11844 peak to part-peak difference at base tier etc. This actually keeps the calculations simple. One passes into the higher tier when the total (no matter the time period) surpasses baseline, and one gets the TOU increases based on period no matter what tier. Since the utility calculates based on monthly totals, they just need to have the net total to calculate the tier contributions, and the net total in each time period to calculate the TOU components. Antony Tersol On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 5:20 PM Antony Tersol wrote: > PGE: After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting > credited at the over-baseline rate. > > When there were multiple tiers, you got credited for whatever tier the > production was in. > i.e. baseline rate for the kWh's up to baseline amount, tier 1 rate for > next kWh's up to tier 1 limit, etc. > > At one time there were 5 tiers, then 4, then 3, now 2. > > > Antony Tersol > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Mon May 3 10:01:33 2021 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 07:01:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question In-Reply-To: References: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> <3cd57a83-5133-4738-cffd-1a8b24e74f96@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Thanks for posting the links to your studies. With CA NEM. 2.0 customers forced into TOU rate schedule, I have been wondering if you have done an analysis on whether TOU-C (peak 4-9 everyday) or TOU-D (peak 5-8 weekdays) is a better pair with solar? https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-rates-work/Residential-Rates-Plan-Pricing.pdf I am leaning towards TOU-D but haven't done an in-depth analysis. Clearly there isn't going to be much solar generation during peak hours regardless. Thanks! Rebekah Tel: 336.266.8800 On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:54 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > You guy's all know that utility is not going to get easier to understand. > It is going the other way and has been! Some of the AG solar guy's below me > in the greatest growing region in the world are probably the best. I can > dig up some of their names from the AG shows on radio KMJ in Fresno. The 5 > am AG show has alot of solar on it and you can stream it. > > I am away for a few days but will post something when I get back. Here is > a link to KMJ and to the AG solar company. > > https://www.kmjnow.com/on-air-schedule/ > > https://pickettsolar.com/industries/agribusiness/ > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 2 May 2021 07:15:55 -0700, frenergy wrote: > > Jerry, > > That's the easy answer but this all gets really deep into > weeds as unless you're a PG&E smart meter (and we *really* trust them), > you don't know when that E-6 baseline is crossed to know when you're > getting or paying the higher rate. There's 2 things going on, baseline and > time-of-use. Customer usage, cloudy days plus other variables make a > precise calculation impossible. A customer might enter the > higher-than-baseline rate halfway into the month and then low consumption > and sunny days pulls the customer back below baseline, paying the lower > rate. > > So many headaches, William, I've tried to figure all this out > on paper but have relied more on raw experience of what works to zero-out > one's bill which with E6 can easily happen with less KWhrs produced than > consumed. > > I would love to talk to wrenches who can help me with decent > rates for AG pumping and the AG-solar destroyer: demand charges. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > On 5/1/2021 3:16 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Currently with PG&E , you buy and sell at what ever rate you are on, Peak > = peak, off peak =off peak, > > On Sat, May 1, 2021, 3:02 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > After years of not quite understanding the intricacies of the newer, more > complicated utility rate schedules I have spent the last 72 hours diving > deeply into the rabbit hole. I have one question I need answered. Maybe > someone has the answer. > > > > If you are on a tiered electric utility rate I know you pay more for > energy after you exceed certain daily amounts—the baseline. I am clear > that if you avoid paying the higher rates, the value of the energy you > generate is equal to the money you save. However if you ratchet your daily > usage below zero and are net-exporting for part of a day, at what value are > you credited in an NEM contract? > > > > Is it: You get the baseline rate no matter how much energy you export. > > > > Or is it: After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting > credited at the over-baseline rate. > > > > Or is it something different altogether. > > > > If anyone knows the answer to this arcane question I would be very > grateful to learn it. It may vary from utility to utility or plan to > plan. PG&E E-6 is the tiered rate I most commonly encounter. > > > > If any of you are particularly masochistic you can review some work I have > published on the subject here: > > > https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html > > > > This is an intricate subject and I believe anyone working in grid-tied > solar should have at least a passing familiarity with the topic. It > affects the realized benefits of investing in grid-tied solar. > > > > Thanks again for being the great group of friends that you are. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > On 5/1/2021 12:46 PM, William Miller wrote: > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon May 3 10:26:40 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 10:26:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark Message-ID: Hi All, I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. Cheers, Dave -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Mon May 3 22:19:05 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 22:19:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02c701d7408b$dd13c090$973b41b0$@glbcc.com> We have a couple of off-grid systems (not SolArk) where we put a Dwyer current sensing relay on the output from the generator, energizing a Gigavac, DC relay that opens the combined PV output circuit and it works well. Not exactly what you are looking for, but the principal would be the same. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Monday, May 03, 2021 10:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark Hi All, I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan, PE 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon May 3 21:23:14 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 18:23:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question In-Reply-To: References: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> <3cd57a83-5133-4738-cffd-1a8b24e74f96@psln.com> Message-ID: Rebekah: Well I spent way too much time thinking about and trying to model these PG&E rates in Excel. Here is what I came up with: The higher the value, the better the rate plan for selling energy. As you can see, there is not much difference between all of these options. About a week ago I wrote all of my clients and warned them not to let the big, bad PG&E force them into new rates, based on a cursory look at the tariffs. Now I feel obligated to write all of them again to clarify that, as far as I can tell, it doesn’t make all that much difference. It’s a little embarrassing. This chart does not take into account the effects of consumption. Unless you have an energy monitor, you have no way of factoring in consumption. I happen to have an energy monitor and when I looked at the data it provide, it showed that the E-1 rate I have did offset my consumption efficiently. PG&E has an online rate comparison tool and it too indicated that E-1 is best for our home. Of course you can’t use E-1 unless you are grandfathered and opted out of the rate change. The table above is based on my best efforts to build a spreadsheet for each of these rate structures that models them accurately. I can’t promise I got it all correct, but I surely tried. Modeling these rate plans is a bit of a mind-bender due to the number of variables each of these rates incorporates and then trying to keep them all straight in my head. For my limited resources this was some heavy mental gymnastics. I want to thank Antony Tersol for the illumination he provided on how to plug the baseline rates into the TOU modeling. I will collate the info I have on this subject and put it on the Case Studies section of our web site later tonight if anyone is curious. I will include the spreadsheets. Any feedback is welcome. Thanks everyone for the interest and input. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren *Sent:* Monday, May 3, 2021 7:02 AM *To:* offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question Hi William, Thanks for posting the links to your studies. With CA NEM. 2.0 customers forced into TOU rate schedule, I have been wondering if you have done an analysis on whether TOU-C (peak 4-9 everyday) or TOU-D (peak 5-8 weekdays) is a better pair with solar? https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-rates-work/Residential-Rates-Plan-Pricing.pdf I am leaning towards TOU-D but haven't done an in-depth analysis. Clearly there isn't going to be much solar generation during peak hours regardless. Thanks! Rebekah Tel: 336.266.8800 On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:54 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: You guy's all know that utility is not going to get easier to understand. It is going the other way and has been! Some of the AG solar guy's below me in the greatest growing region in the world are probably the best. I can dig up some of their names from the AG shows on radio KMJ in Fresno. The 5 am AG show has alot of solar on it and you can stream it. I am away for a few days but will post something when I get back. Here is a link to KMJ and to the AG solar company. https://www.kmjnow.com/on-air-schedule/ https://pickettsolar.com/industries/agribusiness/ *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* *"we go where powerlines don't"* *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * *text 209 813 0060* On Sun, 2 May 2021 07:15:55 -0700, frenergy wrote: Jerry, That's the easy answer but this all gets really deep into weeds as unless you're a PG&E smart meter (and we *really* trust them), you don't know when that E-6 baseline is crossed to know when you're getting or paying the higher rate. There's 2 things going on, baseline and time-of-use. Customer usage, cloudy days plus other variables make a precise calculation impossible. A customer might enter the higher-than-baseline rate halfway into the month and then low consumption and sunny days pulls the customer back below baseline, paying the lower rate. So many headaches, William, I've tried to figure all this out on paper but have relied more on raw experience of what works to zero-out one's bill which with E6 can easily happen with less KWhrs produced than consumed. I would love to talk to wrenches who can help me with decent rates for AG pumping and the AG-solar destroyer: demand charges. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 5/1/2021 3:16 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Currently with PG&E , you buy and sell at what ever rate you are on, Peak = peak, off peak =off peak, On Sat, May 1, 2021, 3:02 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: After years of not quite understanding the intricacies of the newer, more complicated utility rate schedules I have spent the last 72 hours diving deeply into the rabbit hole. I have one question I need answered. Maybe someone has the answer. If you are on a tiered electric utility rate I know you pay more for energy after you exceed certain daily amounts—the baseline. I am clear that if you avoid paying the higher rates, the value of the energy you generate is equal to the money you save. However if you ratchet your daily usage below zero and are net-exporting for part of a day, at what value are you credited in an NEM contract? Is it: You get the baseline rate no matter how much energy you export. Or is it: After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting credited at the over-baseline rate. Or is it something different altogether. If anyone knows the answer to this arcane question I would be very grateful to learn it. It may vary from utility to utility or plan to plan. PG&E E-6 is the tiered rate I most commonly encounter. If any of you are particularly masochistic you can review some work I have published on the subject here: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html This is an intricate subject and I believe anyone working in grid-tied solar should have at least a passing familiarity with the topic. It affects the realized benefits of investing in grid-tied solar. Thanks again for being the great group of friends that you are. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 On 5/1/2021 12:46 PM, William Miller wrote: Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 30573 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From philboutelle at gmail.com Tue May 4 00:15:00 2021 From: philboutelle at gmail.com (Philip Boutelle) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 21:15:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question In-Reply-To: References: <56ceda18e8c338c2d66afc98b8d3bb8b@mail.gmail.com> <3cd57a83-5133-4738-cffd-1a8b24e74f96@psln.com> Message-ID: NREL’s free SAM tool can model tiered & TOU rates with PV generation: https://sam.nrel.gov/ It’s a little clunky to use on every project, but everything can be exported to spreadsheets to dial it in further/work outside of the tool. Consumption data can also be input into the tool. -- *Phil Boutelle,* *PE, CEM, NABCEP Emeritus* | Energy Engineer philboutelle at gmail.com | M (831) 359-5268 On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 7:42 PM William Miller wrote: > Rebekah: > > > > Well I spent way too much time thinking about and trying to model these > PG&E rates in Excel. Here is what I came up with: > > > > > > The higher the value, the better the rate plan for selling energy. As you > can see, there is not much difference between all of these options. About > a week ago I wrote all of my clients and warned them not to let the big, > bad PG&E force them into new rates, based on a cursory look at the > tariffs. Now I feel obligated to write all of them again to clarify that, > as far as I can tell, it doesn’t make all that much difference. It’s a > little embarrassing. > > > > This chart does not take into account the effects of consumption. Unless > you have an energy monitor, you have no way of factoring in consumption. I > happen to have an energy monitor and > when I looked at the data it provide, it showed that the E-1 rate I have > did offset my consumption efficiently. PG&E has an online rate comparison > tool and it too indicated that E-1 is best for our home. Of course you > can’t use E-1 unless you are grandfathered and opted out of the rate change. > > > > The table above is based on my best efforts to build a spreadsheet for > each of these rate structures that models them accurately. I can’t promise > I got it all correct, but I surely tried. Modeling these rate plans is a > bit of a mind-bender due to the number of variables each of these rates > incorporates and then trying to keep them all straight in my head. For my > limited resources this was some heavy mental gymnastics. > > > > I want to thank Antony Tersol for the illumination he provided on how to > plug the baseline rates into the TOU modeling. > > > > I will collate the info I have on this subject and put it on the Case > Studies section of our web site later tonight if anyone is curious. I will > include the spreadsheets. Any feedback is welcome. > > > > Thanks everyone for the interest and input. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren > *Sent:* Monday, May 3, 2021 7:02 AM > *To:* offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Utitlity Rate question > > > > Hi William, > > Thanks for posting the links to your studies. With CA NEM. 2.0 customers > forced into TOU rate schedule, I have been wondering if you have done an > analysis on whether TOU-C (peak 4-9 everyday) or TOU-D (peak 5-8 weekdays) > is a better pair with solar? > > > > > https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-rates-work/Residential-Rates-Plan-Pricing.pdf > > > > I am leaning towards TOU-D but haven't done an in-depth analysis. Clearly > there isn't going to be much solar generation during peak hours regardless. > > > > Thanks! > > Rebekah > > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > > > > > On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:54 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > > You guy's all know that utility is not going to get easier to understand. > It is going the other way and has been! Some of the AG solar guy's below me > in the greatest growing region in the world are probably the best. I can > dig up some of their names from the AG shows on radio KMJ in Fresno. The 5 > am AG show has alot of solar on it and you can stream it. > > I am away for a few days but will post something when I get back. Here is > a link to KMJ and to the AG solar company. > > https://www.kmjnow.com/on-air-schedule/ > > https://pickettsolar.com/industries/agribusiness/ > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* > > *"we go where powerlines don't"* > > *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * > > *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * > > *text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 2 May 2021 07:15:55 -0700, frenergy wrote: > > Jerry, > > That's the easy answer but this all gets really deep into > weeds as unless you're a PG&E smart meter (and we *really* trust them), > you don't know when that E-6 baseline is crossed to know when you're > getting or paying the higher rate. There's 2 things going on, baseline and > time-of-use. Customer usage, cloudy days plus other variables make a > precise calculation impossible. A customer might enter the > higher-than-baseline rate halfway into the month and then low consumption > and sunny days pulls the customer back below baseline, paying the lower > rate. > > So many headaches, William, I've tried to figure all this out > on paper but have relied more on raw experience of what works to zero-out > one's bill which with E6 can easily happen with less KWhrs produced than > consumed. > > I would love to talk to wrenches who can help me with decent > rates for AG pumping and the AG-solar destroyer: demand charges. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > On 5/1/2021 3:16 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > > Currently with PG&E , you buy and sell at what ever rate you are on, Peak > = peak, off peak =off peak, > > > > On Sat, May 1, 2021, 3:02 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > After years of not quite understanding the intricacies of the newer, more > complicated utility rate schedules I have spent the last 72 hours diving > deeply into the rabbit hole. I have one question I need answered. Maybe > someone has the answer. > > > > If you are on a tiered electric utility rate I know you pay more for > energy after you exceed certain daily amounts—the baseline. I am clear > that if you avoid paying the higher rates, the value of the energy you > generate is equal to the money you save. However if you ratchet your daily > usage below zero and are net-exporting for part of a day, at what value are > you credited in an NEM contract? > > > > Is it: You get the baseline rate no matter how much energy you export. > > > > Or is it: After you export more than the baseline rate, you start getting > credited at the over-baseline rate. > > > > Or is it something different altogether. > > > > If anyone knows the answer to this arcane question I would be very > grateful to learn it. It may vary from utility to utility or plan to > plan. PG&E E-6 is the tiered rate I most commonly encounter. > > > > If any of you are particularly masochistic you can review some work I have > published on the subject here: > > > https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html > > > > This is an intricate subject and I believe anyone working in grid-tied > solar should have at least a passing familiarity with the topic. It > affects the realized benefits of investing in grid-tied solar. > > > > Thanks again for being the great group of friends that you are. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > On 5/1/2021 12:46 PM, William Miller wrote: > > > > > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 30573 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue May 4 10:02:41 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 04 May 2021 10:02:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. --- On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. > > I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. > > Cheers, > Dave > -- > > Dave Tedeyan, PE > > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com [1] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue May 4 11:04:25 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 11:04:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Dave, My initial background comes from the Industrial Controls world w/ a strong military influence. Given that the generator probably has some kind of transfer switch, chances are that the transfer switch has a dry contact in which can be used to power a relay. I normally use ASCO transfer switches in this manner along with an Allen-Bradley contactor, P/N 400DP50ND3. This has a 120vac coil, 4 poles with a rating of 50 amps. Hope this helps. Christopher On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:44 AM wrote: > Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the > 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the > contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters > through the contacts from common to N/C. > > --- > > > > On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery > backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC > coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark > about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule > to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the > issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. > > I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the > solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, > although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This > seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is > needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Tue May 4 12:19:52 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 09:19:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <895958d0-3f15-cc26-22f9-e9a3aa38940f@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Dave ~ Well this might not be the answer you are looking for but I'd take a serious look at the relative hassle of rewiring the array to DC. Sol-Ark's shine in DC coupled mode - highly efficient - and then you have the generator port open (now not used for AC coupling) available for the generator.   Depending on how accessible the MC4s are on the array and how easy to run DC wire it might not be that much work - with a much superior result. Best, Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Dave Tedeyan > May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM > Hi All, > > I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery > backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC > coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to > Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of > use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we > don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. > > I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out > the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's > GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for > just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to > run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, > winter day. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Sungineer Solar* > * > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue May 4 13:47:45 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 13:47:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <895958d0-3f15-cc26-22f9-e9a3aa38940f@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <895958d0-3f15-cc26-22f9-e9a3aa38940f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <009d01d7410d$9795dbc0$c6c19340$@glbcc.com> This may not be a good idea if you want to retain rapid shutdown compliance… -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 12:20 PM To: RE-wrenches ; Dave Tedeyan Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark Hi Dave ~ Well this might not be the answer you are looking for but I'd take a serious look at the relative hassle of rewiring the array to DC. Sol-Ark's shine in DC coupled mode - highly efficient - and then you have the generator port open (now not used for AC coupling) available for the generator. Depending on how accessible the MC4s are on the array and how easy to run DC wire it might not be that much work - with a much superior result. Best, Jeff -- ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Tedeyan May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM Hi All, I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan, PE 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue May 4 15:08:02 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (Drake) Date: Tue, 04 May 2021 15:08:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to >the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator >comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled >Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. > >--- > > > >On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>Hi All, >> >>I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding >>battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it >>will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I >>talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator >>on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day >>so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >> >>I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut >>out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's >>GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated >>for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the >>generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a >>gloomy, snowy, winter day. >> >>Cheers, >>Dave >> >>-- >>Dave Tedeyan, PE >>Sungineer Solar >> >>1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>Cell: 607-288-2898 >>www.sungineersolar.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >>Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >>List Address: >>RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >>Change listserver email address & settings: >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>try the other: >>https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >>List rules & etiquette: >>http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >>Check out or update participant bios: >>http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >_______________________________________________ >List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > >Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > >List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > >Change listserver email address & settings: >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >try the other: >https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > >List rules & etiquette: >http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > >Check out or update participant bios: >http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78c218.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue May 4 16:03:13 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 16:03:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution. Jason On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake wrote: > P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback > literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no > complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V > contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly > expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. > > At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: > > Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the > 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the > contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters > through the contacts from common to N/C. > > --- > > > > On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery > backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC > coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark > about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule > to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the > issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. > > I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the > solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, > although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This > seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is > needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78c218.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78c218.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue May 4 16:41:19 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 16:41:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Jason, A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. Christopher On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that > is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a > failsafe solution. > > Jason > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake > wrote: > >> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback >> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no >> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V >> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly >> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. >> >> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >> >> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the >> 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the >> contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters >> through the contacts from common to N/C. >> >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery >> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC >> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark >> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule >> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the >> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >> >> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the >> solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, >> although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This >> seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is >> needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar] >> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Cell: 607-288-2898 >> www.sungineersolar.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue May 4 19:24:13 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. OR B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the generator and breaks it. For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I would think option B would be worse. Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? Cheers, Dave On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > Jason, > > A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if > there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. > > Christopher > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that >> is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a >> failsafe solution. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake >> wrote: >> >>> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback >>> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no >>> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V >>> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly >>> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. >>> >>> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >>> >>> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the >>> 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the >>> contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters >>> through the contacts from common to N/C. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery >>> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC >>> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark >>> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule >>> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the >>> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >>> >>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out >>> the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's >>> GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just >>> over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any >>> time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar] >>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> Cell: 607-288-2898 >>> www.sungineersolar.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue May 4 21:32:09 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 04 May 2021 21:32:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: You can even buy a kit. https://www.solar-electric.com/outback-power-gs-ac-gen-kit-generator-back-up-kit.html This provides an enclosure for the contactor. --- On 2021-05-04 16:03, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution. > > Jason > > On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake wrote: > P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. > > At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: > Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. > > --- > > On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. > > I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > Dave Tedeyan, PE > > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com [1] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [2] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [3] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [6] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [7] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [2] > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [3] > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [4] > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [5] > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [8] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ [2] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [3] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [4] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [6] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [7] http://re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 78c218.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed May 5 07:07:25 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 07:07:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <90FEBFA4-AEA3-49C0-9ACD-189E221083A7@swnl.net> Set the Gen’s frequency above or below the 3 +/- of the acceptance window of your micro inverters. > On May 4, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? > A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. > OR > B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the generator and breaks it. > > For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I would think option B would be worse. > > Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > Jason, > > A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. > > Christopher > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution. > > Jason > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake > wrote: > P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. > > At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. >> >> --- >> >> >> >> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >>> >>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave Tedeyan, PE >>> >>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> Cell: 607-288-2898 >>> www.sungineersolar.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed May 5 15:45:30 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 12:45:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] upGRADING raDIAN 4048a Message-ID: <7a738d80ccfb6e529fe2a5ef3dec401f@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: I have a system with 2 4048A Radians and I’d like to upgrade both of them to 8 kW. I was told during the training this could be done but was not supported. Has anyone tried this? I thought for sure this would have been covered in the archives but I could not find it there. Hopefully we can answer this and put it in the archives. Thanks in advance! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed May 5 08:47:37 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 06:47:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <90FEBFA4-AEA3-49C0-9ACD-189E221083A7@swnl.net> References: <90FEBFA4-AEA3-49C0-9ACD-189E221083A7@swnl.net> Message-ID: <27DB708E-4ABB-47BB-BF00-98EE81F6ACBF@gmail.com> I’ve used two SPDT relays, one for each phase. This gives double redundancy Jay Peltz power. > On May 5, 2021, at 5:07 AM, Tump wrote: > > Set the Gen’s frequency above or below the 3 +/- of the acceptance window of your micro inverters. >>> On May 4, 2021, at 7:24 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> >>> I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? >>> A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. >>> OR >>> B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the generator and breaks it. >>> >>> For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I would think option B would be worse. >>> >>> Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: >>>> Jason, >>>> >>>> A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. >>>> >>>> Christopher >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>>> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake wrote: >>>>>> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. >>>>>> >>>>>> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >>>>>>> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, PE >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>>>>> Cell: 607-288-2898 >>>>>>>> www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Chris Schaefer’s >>>> >>>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Wed May 5 16:19:44 2021 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 10:19:44 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] upGRADING raDIAN 4048a In-Reply-To: <7a738d80ccfb6e529fe2a5ef3dec401f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a738d80ccfb6e529fe2a5ef3dec401f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, We have done this by simply adding an additional Power module, the control stack is the same as an 8048a. However, as you mentioned Outback does not support this, and I don't be liee they would be supported under warranty after making this change. Mahalo, Roland Shackelford NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #091209-162 President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. | www.renewablenergy.com | Mobile: 808-938-9239 | Office: 808-775-7410 | Fax: 808-775-7756 *Privileged And Confidential Communication. This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are protected by the Electronic Privacy Act (18 USC ?? 2510-2521), (b) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited. On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 10:09 AM William Miller wrote: > Wrenches: > > > > I have a system with 2 4048A Radians and I’d like to upgrade both of them > to 8 kW. I was told during the training this could be done but was not > supported. Has anyone tried this? > > > > I thought for sure this would have been covered in the archives but I > could not find it there. Hopefully we can answer this and put it in the > archives. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu May 6 10:33:16 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 07:33:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. OR B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the generator and breaks it. For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I would think option B would be worse. Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? Cheers, Dave On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: Jason, A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. Christopher On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution. Jason On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake wrote: P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. --- On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan, PE 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com [6] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [7] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [14] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [21] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [27] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [28] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [29] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [30] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [31] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [32] List rules color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [36] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [37]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [38] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [39] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [40] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [41] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [42] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [43] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [44] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [4] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [5] mailto:drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [6] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ [7] http://re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] http://re-wrenches.org/ [15] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [21] http://re-wrenches.org [22] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [28] http://re-wrenches.org [29] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [32] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [34] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [35] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [36] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [37] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com [38] http://re-wrenches.org [39] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [40] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [41] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [42] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [43] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [44] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu May 6 11:20:58 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 11:20:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <35b95f28-f583-3d64-1077-aa475b2f690e@solarray.com> I second that. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/6/21 10:33 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the > rule of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > >> I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? >> A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. >> OR >> B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the >> generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the >> generator and breaks it. >> For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I >> would think option B would be worse. >> Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer > > wrote: >> >> Jason, >> A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open >> so if there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski >> > > wrote: >> >> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC >> contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage >> from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution. >> Jason >> >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake >> > > wrote: >> >> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in >> the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It >> is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will >> not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors >> with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly >> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit >> provides the signal. >> >> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >>> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil >>> wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, >>> so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run >>> the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters >>> through the contacts from common to N/C. >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for >>>> adding battery backup to an existing system. It is >>>> Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is >>>> a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about >>>> it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of >>>> use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day >>>> so that we don't run into the issue of the solar >>>> backfeeding the generator. >>>> >>>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a >>>> contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns >>>> on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in >>>> this case I will need something rated for just over >>>> 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the >>>> generator to run at any time it is needed, especially >>>> if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE >>>> * Sungineer Solar >>>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> Cell: 607-288-2898 >>>> www.sungineersolar.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>> doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one >> doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >> //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >> //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ >> E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com / >> >> / >> / >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once >> said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from >> those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu May 6 11:38:52 2021 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 11:38:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack inverter repair Message-ID: <007001d7428d$eb5c5dc0$c2151940$@gmail.com> I am needing a recommendation for businesses that repair OutBack inverters. Also, businesses that sell refurbished OutBack inverters. Thanks, Dave Palumbo Independent Power Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu May 6 12:06:05 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 09:06:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack inverter repair In-Reply-To: <007001d7428d$eb5c5dc0$c2151940$@gmail.com> References: <007001d7428d$eb5c5dc0$c2151940$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Zonna Energy. They’re great folks. Also, Kris Stone at stkrizzi at yahoo.com. He repaired a few of my boards for legacy inverters recently and was recommended by others on the list. Nick > On May 6, 2021, at 8:38 AM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: > > I am needing a recommendation for businesses that repair OutBack inverters. > > Also, businesses that sell refurbished OutBack inverters. > > Thanks, > > Dave Palumbo > Independent Power > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 5 21:01:52 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 05 May 2021 21:01:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wrench Membership Dues Message-ID: Hello Wrench Associates, While he's made it optional, I want to encourage you to respond to Michael's request for financial support for the Wrench List. Michael Welch founded the list in October of 1999, and has been the administrator of it ever since. He is now working strictly as a volunteer. He deserves our support. He has suggested a minimum of a $50 donation. Some installers, like me, find the list much more valuable than that, and have upped the ante accordingly. His email from a couple weeks ago lays out his request. It is pasted below. The following link can be used to pay your dues. It can also be found in the footer of every list email. http://re-wrenches.org The List is valuable in many ways. • It often provides a preview of what to expect when trying new equipment. • Many Wrenches give technical support that is superior to manufacturer’s tech support. • The list can get the attention of knowledgeable technical support people from manufacturers when the agents who answer the phone can't help. Let’s keep this valuable resource going. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Help Ensure Wrench List Continuance As you are probably aware, the Wrench List has been under the personal direction of myself via a small, local nonprofit I work with, after Home Power magazine ended sponsorship of the list. When we announced the sponsorship change back then, I promised that we would start asking for funds from members. At the time I was willing to keep going as a volunteer, which I'm still doing. I spend 8-20 hours a week on this list and I'm committed to continuing to do so. But we need to start bringing in funds to help cover list costs, including my time. It's been over 2 years since the final Home Power financial crises killed its two magazines, ending all our jobs (mine included) and financial support for this listserve. There is no outside funding for this project. Lacking the likelihood of any big corporate sponsors, it's finally time to implement paid Wrench List membership! Toward that end, we're beginning an annual dues/membership program. But don't worry—nobody will be excluded for lack of contributing. Paid membership is not mandatory, but would be greatly appreciated and will go a long way to ensure The Wrench List's life into the future. We are suggesting that each individual member contribute an amount commensurate with the value of the list for that member, starting at $50 per year. If you find the Wrench list particularly helpful, and/or your business is doing well, maybe $100 – $300 would be appropriate—it's up to you. Major manufacturers on the list might consider thousands, if they recognize the value the list has to the RE industry. So, if you find this listserve of value please consider membership at the level that works for you. We've already had a few Wrenches send checks voluntarily—thank you! We look forward to a robust membership as more and more of you join. Membership dues are a legitimate business expense with full business tax benefits, but can also be treated as a tax-exempt donation for individuals who do not have a business. As always, if you have feedback, questions, or concerns about this, please contact me off-list. Here's how you can submit your member dues: By PayPal or Credit Card By mailed check (make payable to Redwood Alliance): Redwood Alliance RE-Wrenches PO Box 293 Arcata, CA 95518 Thanks for all you do, and looking forward to hearing from you. View this email in your browser -- From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu May 6 13:22:42 2021 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 10:22:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wrench Membership Dues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1620321802794.582acfa01751dd46@re-wrenches.org> Drake, your kind words move me. If anyone has any questions about this, please pop me an email off-list. drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote at 06:01 PM 5/5/2021: >Hello Wrench Associates, While he's made it optional, I want to encourage you to respond to Michael's request for financial support for the Wrench List. From ray at solarray.com Thu May 6 13:56:03 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 13:56:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wrench Membership Dues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <304bd6cb-caa6-5f67-fdd5-6838d011f959@solarray.com> As a user of this list for almost 20 years, it has saved me from costly mistakes dozens of times.  Donating just 1% of what this invaluable resource has saved me over the years is way beyond the suggested donation, but yet is still incredibly cheap.  In that same time period, I spent over $30k on my cell service. Think about what this biz would be like without this form, and then support it accordingly.  Biz has been good, don't be a chump! Rant off,  Thanks Michael. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/5/21 9:01 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrench Associates, > > While he's made it optional, I want to encourage you to respond to > Michael's request for financial support for the Wrench List. Michael > Welch founded the list in October of 1999, and has been the > administrator of it ever since. He is now working strictly as a > volunteer. He deserves our support. > > He has suggested a minimum of a $50 donation. Some installers, like > me, find the list much more valuable than that, and have upped the > ante accordingly. > > His email from a couple weeks ago lays out his request. It is pasted > below. The following link can be used to pay your dues. It can also be > found in the footer of every list email. > > http://re-wrenches.org > > The List is valuable in many ways. > •    It often provides a preview of what to expect when trying new > equipment. > •    Many Wrenches give technical support that is superior to > manufacturer’s tech support. > •    The list can get the attention of knowledgeable technical support > people from     manufacturers when the agents who answer the phone > can't help. > > Let’s keep this valuable resource going. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > Help Ensure Wrench List Continuance > > As you are probably aware, the Wrench List has been under the personal > direction of myself via a small, local nonprofit I work with, after > Home Power magazine ended sponsorship of the list. > > When we announced the sponsorship change back then, I promised that we > would start asking for funds from members. At the time I was willing > to keep going as a volunteer, which I'm still doing. I spend 8-20 > hours a week on this list and I'm committed to continuing to do so. > But we need to start bringing in funds to help cover list costs, > including my time. > > It's been over 2 years since the final Home Power financial crises > killed its two magazines, ending all our jobs (mine included) and > financial support for this listserve. There is no outside funding for > this project. Lacking the likelihood of any big corporate sponsors, > it's finally time to implement paid Wrench List membership! > > Toward that end, we're beginning an annual dues/membership program. > But don't worry—nobody will be excluded for lack of contributing. Paid > membership is not mandatory, but would be greatly appreciated and will > go a long way to ensure The Wrench List's life into the future. > > We are suggesting that each individual member contribute an amount > commensurate with the value of the list for that member, starting at > $50 per year. If you find the Wrench list particularly helpful, and/or > your business is doing well, maybe $100 – $300 would be > appropriate—it's up to you. Major manufacturers on the list might > consider thousands, if they recognize the value the list has to the RE > industry. So, if you find this listserve of value please consider > membership at the level that works for you. > > We've already had a few Wrenches send checks voluntarily—thank you! We > look forward to a robust membership as more and more of you join. > Membership dues are a legitimate business expense with full business > tax benefits, but can also be treated as a tax-exempt donation for > individuals who do not have a business. > > As always, if you have feedback, questions, or concerns about this, > please contact me off-list. > > Here's how you can submit your member dues: > > By PayPal or Credit Card > > > By mailed check (make payable to Redwood Alliance): > Redwood Alliance > RE-Wrenches > PO Box 293 > Arcata, CA 95518 > > Thanks for all you do, and looking forward to hearing from you. > > View this email in your browser > > > > > > > > > > From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu May 6 13:29:58 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 10:29:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wrench Membership Dues In-Reply-To: <1620321802794.582acfa01751dd46@re-wrenches.org> References: <1620321802794.582acfa01751dd46@re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: Wrenches We all must understand that there are very few things in life that is free, The Wrenches list is not one of them. Some post questions, some solutions, the List makes all this happen. I agree we all need to contribute what ever we can to make sure this valuable resource remains in place. Jerry Shafer NABCEP PV Inspector On Thu, May 6, 2021, 10:24 AM Michael Welch wrote: > Drake, your kind words move me. > > If anyone has any questions about this, please pop me an email off-list. > > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote at 06:01 PM 5/5/2021: > > >Hello Wrench Associates, While he's made it optional, I want to encourage > you to respond to Michael's request for financial support for the Wrench > List. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri May 7 04:11:46 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 01:11:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wrench Membership Dues In-Reply-To: <304bd6cb-caa6-5f67-fdd5-6838d011f959@solarray.com> References: <304bd6cb-caa6-5f67-fdd5-6838d011f959@solarray.com> Message-ID: Dear Wrench Colleagues, Also as a user of this list for over 20 years now - it has been invaluable - not only for technical knowledge - but for the historical legacy of decades of off-grid experience and community not supported in any other forum. I also contributed and may contribute more - I encourage all to donate if you've benefited from the experience and knowledge on the List. And thanks for your years of patient service Michael! Best, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design > Ray > May 6, 2021 at 10:56 AM > As a user of this list for almost 20 years, it has saved me from > costly mistakes dozens of times.  Donating just 1% of what this > invaluable resource has saved me over the years is way beyond the > suggested donation, but yet is still incredibly cheap.  In that same > time period, I spent over $30k on my cell service. Think about what > this biz would be like without this form, and then support it > accordingly.  Biz has been good, don't be a chump! > > Rant off,  Thanks Michael. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > > May 5, 2021 at 6:01 PM > Hello Wrench Associates, > > While he's made it optional, I want to encourage you to respond to > Michael's request for financial support for the Wrench List. Michael > Welch founded the list in October of 1999, and has been the > administrator of it ever since. He is now working strictly as a > volunteer. He deserves our support. > > He has suggested a minimum of a $50 donation. Some installers, like > me, find the list much more valuable than that, and have upped the > ante accordingly. > > His email from a couple weeks ago lays out his request. It is pasted > below. The following link can be used to pay your dues. It can also be > found in the footer of every list email. > > http://re-wrenches.org > > The List is valuable in many ways. > •    It often provides a preview of what to expect when trying new > equipment. > •    Many Wrenches give technical support that is superior to > manufacturer’s tech support. > •    The list can get the attention of knowledgeable technical support > people from     manufacturers when the agents who answer the phone > can't help. > > Let’s keep this valuable resource going. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > Help Ensure Wrench List Continuance > > As you are probably aware, the Wrench List has been under the personal > direction of myself via a small, local nonprofit I work with, after > Home Power magazine ended sponsorship of the list. > > When we announced the sponsorship change back then, I promised that we > would start asking for funds from members. At the time I was willing > to keep going as a volunteer, which I'm still doing. I spend 8-20 > hours a week on this list and I'm committed to continuing to do so. > But we need to start bringing in funds to help cover list costs, > including my time. > > It's been over 2 years since the final Home Power financial crises > killed its two magazines, ending all our jobs (mine included) and > financial support for this listserve. There is no outside funding for > this project. Lacking the likelihood of any big corporate sponsors, > it's finally time to implement paid Wrench List membership! > > Toward that end, we're beginning an annual dues/membership program. > But don't worry—nobody will be excluded for lack of contributing. Paid > membership is not mandatory, but would be greatly appreciated and will > go a long way to ensure The Wrench List's life into the future. > > We are suggesting that each individual member contribute an amount > commensurate with the value of the list for that member, starting at > $50 per year. If you find the Wrench list particularly helpful, and/or > your business is doing well, maybe $100 – $300 would be > appropriate—it's up to you. Major manufacturers on the list might > consider thousands, if they recognize the value the list has to the RE > industry. So, if you find this listserve of value please consider > membership at the level that works for you. > > We've already had a few Wrenches send checks voluntarily—thank you! We > look forward to a robust membership as more and more of you join. > Membership dues are a legitimate business expense with full business > tax benefits, but can also be treated as a tax-exempt donation for > individuals who do not have a business. > > As always, if you have feedback, questions, or concerns about this, > please contact me off-list. > > Here's how you can submit your member dues: > > By PayPal or Credit Card > > > By mailed check (make payable to Redwood Alliance): > Redwood Alliance > RE-Wrenches > PO Box 293 > Arcata, CA 95518 > > Thanks for all you do, and looking forward to hearing from you. > > View this email in your browser > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 7 11:10:08 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 08:10:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say that. KISS is better Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Thu, May 6, 2021, 7:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule > of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? > A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. > OR > B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the > generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the > generator and breaks it. > > For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I > would think option B would be worse. > > Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if >> there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. >> >> Christopher >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that >>> is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a >>> failsafe solution. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake >>> wrote: >>> >>>> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback >>>> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no >>>> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V >>>> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly >>>> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. >>>> >>>> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the >>>> 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the >>>> contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters >>>> through the contacts from common to N/C. >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery >>>> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC >>>> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark >>>> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule >>>> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the >>>> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >>>> >>>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out >>>> the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's >>>> GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just >>>> over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any >>>> time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar] >>>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> Cell: 607-288-2898 >>>> www.sungineersolar.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri May 7 11:41:15 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 11:41:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is not the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a grid-tied system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a whole house generator set up. Cheers, Dave On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 11:10 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not > good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump > enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will > work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC > coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say > that. KISS is better > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector > > On Thu, May 6, 2021, 7:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule >> of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >> I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? >> A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. >> OR >> B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the >> generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the >> generator and breaks it. >> >> For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I >> would think option B would be worse. >> >> Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer >> wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if >>> there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor >>>> that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's >>>> not a failsafe solution. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake < >>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback >>>>> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no >>>>> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V >>>>> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly >>>>> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. >>>>> >>>>> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to >>>>> the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, >>>>> the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters >>>>> through the contacts from common to N/C. >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery >>>>> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC >>>>> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark >>>>> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule >>>>> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the >>>>> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >>>>> >>>>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out >>>>> the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's >>>>> GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just >>>>> over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any >>>>> time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar] >>>>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>> Cell: 607-288-2898 >>>>> www.sungineersolar.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer's >>> >>> >>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> * >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri May 7 12:21:14 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid systems when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the worst case scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so some WSW-facing AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load and go into darkness with full batteries. If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can simultaneously do AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the MPPTs and use the GRID input for the generator. Jason On Fri, May 7, 2021, 11:41 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is not > the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a grid-tied > system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a whole house > generator set up. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 11:10 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not >> good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump >> enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will >> work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC >> coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say >> that. KISS is better >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV Inspector >> >> On Thu, May 6, 2021, 7:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < >> offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: >> >>> I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule >>> of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060* >>> >>> On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan >>> wrote: >>> >>> I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? >>> A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. >>> OR >>> B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the >>> generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the >>> generator and breaks it. >>> >>> For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I >>> would think option B would be worse. >>> >>> Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jason, >>>> >>>> A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if >>>> there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. >>>> >>>> Christopher >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor >>>>> that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's >>>>> not a failsafe solution. >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake < >>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback >>>>>> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no >>>>>> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V >>>>>> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly >>>>>> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. >>>>>> >>>>>> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to >>>>>> the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, >>>>>> the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters >>>>>> through the contacts from common to N/C. >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding >>>>>> battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be >>>>>> AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark >>>>>> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule >>>>>> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the >>>>>> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out >>>>>> the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's >>>>>> GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just >>>>>> over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any >>>>>> time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar] >>>>>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>>> Cell: 607-288-2898 >>>>>> www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Chris Schaefer's >>>> >>>> >>>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >>>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >>>> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >>>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >>>> willing to work and give to those who would not." >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri May 7 17:11:27 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 17:11:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) Message-ID: In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 7 18:25:06 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 07 May 2021 15:25:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <0efcaafb18792c8ea243c046c21737a5@127.0.0.1> I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple with a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs. For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or genset that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large microgrid with many houses and a skilled person on site, it could be used as a second best method to DC coupling everything. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid systems when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the worst case scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so some WSW-facing AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load and go into darkness with full batteries. If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can simultaneously do AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the MPPTs and use the GRID input for the generator. Jason On Fri, May 7, 2021, 11:41 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is not the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a grid-tied system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a whole house generator set up. Cheers, Dave On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 11:10 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say that. KISS is better Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Thu, May 6, 2021, 7:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [6] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [7] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. OR B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the generator and breaks it. For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I would think option B would be worse. Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? Cheers, Dave On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: Jason, A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. Christopher On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution. Jason On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake wrote: P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. --- On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan, PE 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com [12] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [20] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [27] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [28] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [29] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [30] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [32] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [33] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [34] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [35] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [36] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [37] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [38] List rules color: #1f497d;">Chris Schaefer's [41] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [42] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [43]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [44] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [45] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [46] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [47] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [48] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [49] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [50] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [51] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [52] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [53] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [54] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [55] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [56] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [57] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [58] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [59] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [60] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [61] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [62] List rules " dir="ltr">DAVE TEDEYAN, PE 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com [65] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [66] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [67] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [68] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Fri May 7 19:00:41 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 17:00:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are relatively rare. So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC. How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a > question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came > up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL > listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable > to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? > > I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. > Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. > > While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and > bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 > AWG inside junction boxes. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri May 7 20:48:59 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 17:48:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: <72d2b9d9-f55e-3591-9652-99371c3e131b@villagelab.net> References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> <0efcaafb18792c8ea243c046c21737a5@127.0.0.1> <72d2b9d9-f55e-3591-9652-99371c3e131b@villagelab.net> Message-ID: Dave A. - Sol-Arks'"GEN" breaker can be used for 1 of 3 operations only - Generator, AC Coupling OR Smart Load (Load Shedding)  So when you are grid-interactive (which takes up your GRID breaker) and you have PV and a Generator - the way to go is to have no AC Coupling - put the Grid and Gen where they belong and enjoy the high efficiency and smart control of DC Coupling, Time of Use control (for  the Genny,the Grid and the Batteries) - all in the mid to high 90's efficiency that the Sol-Ark provides. I know Dave T that you already have an installed Enphase system that probably needs to be Rapid Shutdown compliant as well AND that you have a whole house genny - however - I still would take a strong look at the economic tradeoffs of rewiring the array to DC - (could install Tigo RS) - and splitting the whole house Gen output to the Sol-Ark and probably existing Transfer switch.  We are just saying - now you are utilizing your equipment to the max!  May not be economically feasible labor and additional hardware wise in this situation.  But I surely would do the math and look at that tradeoff seriously  - perhaps give that option to your customer to make the economic decision - would result in long term happy customer and most energy utilized with least fuel costs. I'll let that case rest!  Gees!  all you asked for was some relay advice!  See what you get with this List!?  too much expertise! :) Have fun, Jeff C. Village Power Design > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > May 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM > > I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple > with a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs. > > For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or > genset that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large > microgrid with many houses and a skilled person on site,  it could be > used as a second best method to DC coupling everything. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jason Szumlanski > May 7, 2021 at 9:21 AM > I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid > systems when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the > worst case scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so > some WSW-facing AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load > and go into darkness with full batteries. > > If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can > simultaneously do AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the > MPPTs and use the GRID input for the generator. > > Jason > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan > May 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM > I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is > not the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a > grid-tied system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a > whole house generator set up. > Cheers, > Dave > > > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Sungineer Solar* > * > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jerry Shafer > May 7, 2021 at 8:10 AM > I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are > not good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a > redesign, dump enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a > gen set back up will work. Your spending more time and effort going in > a bad direction. AC coupling for resi is not a great solution to start > with and Solark even say that. KISS is better > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > May 6, 2021 at 7:33 AM > > I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the > rule of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan > May 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM > I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? > A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. > OR > B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the > generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the > generator and breaks it. > > For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I > would think option B would be worse. > > Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Chris Schaefer > May 4, 2021 at 1:41 PM > Jason, > > A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if > there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. > > Christopher > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > /Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > //5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > //www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: > chris at solarandwindfx.com / > > / > / > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jason Szumlanski > May 4, 2021 at 1:03 PM > What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor > that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. > It's not a failsafe solution. > > Jason > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Drake > May 4, 2021 at 12:08 PM > P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback > literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and > requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid > shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily > available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the > generator circuit provides the signal. > > At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > > May 4, 2021 at 7:02 AM > Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to > the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes > on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase > inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. > --- > > > On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan > May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM > Hi All, > > I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery > backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC > coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to > Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of > use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we > don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. > > I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out > the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's > GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for > just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to > run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, > winter day. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > Sungineer Solar* > * > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 7 21:06:05 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 07 May 2021 18:06:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> <0efcaafb18792c8ea243c046c21737a5@127.0.0.1> <72d2b9d9-f55e-3591-9652-99371c3e131b@villagelab.net> Message-ID: Thanks! I thought this was for Offgrid and that was my mistake. Will it run a 15A table saw without losing power, or was that just too much expertise? I will wait 3 years on anything that is suppose to replace what I already use. I have a low opinion of the all in one for Offgrid anyways. Especially a non low frequency design. Maybe time will change my opinion. Thanks for the info! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 7 May 2021 17:48:59 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Dave A. - Sol-Arks' "GEN" breaker can be used for 1 of 3 operations only - Generator, AC Coupling OR Smart Load (Load Shedding) So when you are grid-interactive (which takes up your GRID breaker) and you have PV and a Generator - the way to go is to have no AC Coupling - put the Grid and Gen where they belong and enjoy the high efficiency and smart control of DC Coupling, Time of Use control (for the Genny,the Grid and the Batteries) - all in the mid to high 90's efficiency that the Sol-Ark provides. I know Dave T that you already have an installed Enphase system that probably needs to be Rapid Shutdown compliant as well AND that you have a whole house genny - however - I still would take a strong look at the economic tradeoffs of rewiring the array to DC - (could install Tigo RS) - and splitting the whole house Gen output to the Sol-Ark and probably existing Transfer switch. We are just saying - now you are utilizing your equipment to the max! May not be economically feasible labor and additional hardware wise in this situation. But I surely would do the math and look at that tradeoff seriously - perhaps give that option to your customer to make the economic decision - would result in long term happy customer and most energy utilized with least fuel costs. I'll let that case rest! Gees! all you asked for was some relay advice! See what you get with this List!? too much expertise! :) Have fun, Jeff C. Village Power Design Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar [3] May 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple with a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs. For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or genset that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large microgrid with many houses and a skilled person on site, it could be used as a second best method to DC coupling everything. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [5] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski [6] wrote: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [7] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules "> Jason Szumlanski [14] May 7, 2021 at 9:21 AM I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid systems when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the worst case scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so some WSW-facing AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load and go into darkness with full batteries. If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can simultaneously do AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the MPPTs and use the GRID input for the generator. Jason _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [15] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List rules "> Dave Tedeyan [22] May 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is not the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a grid-tied system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a whole house generator set up. Cheers, Dave -- DAVE TEDEYAN, PE 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com [23] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [24] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [25] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [27] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [28] List rules "> Jerry Shafer [31] May 7, 2021 at 8:10 AM I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say that. KISS is better Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [32] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [33] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [34] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [35] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [36] List rules "> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar [39] May 6, 2021 at 7:33 AM I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [40] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [41] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan [42] wrote: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [43] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [44] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [45] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [46] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [47] List rules "> Dave Tedeyan [50] May 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. OR B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the generator and breaks it. For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I would think option B would be worse. Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? Cheers, Dave _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [51] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [52] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [53] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [54] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [55] List rules "> Chris Schaefer [58] May 4, 2021 at 1:41 PM Jason, A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. Christopher -- Chris Schaefer's Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [60] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [61]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [62] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [63] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [64] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [65] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [66] List rules "> Jason Szumlanski [69] May 4, 2021 at 1:03 PM What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution. Jason _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [70] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [71] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [72] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [73] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [74] List rules "> Drake [77] May 4, 2021 at 12:08 PM P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [78] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [79] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [80] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [81] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [82] List rules "> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org [85] May 4, 2021 at 7:02 AM Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. --- On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [86] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [87] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [88] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [89] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [90] List rules "> Dave Tedeyan [93] May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM Hi All, I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. Cheers, Dave -- DAVE TEDEYAN, PE 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com [94] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [95] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [96] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [97] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri May 7 20:47:44 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 17:47:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago connector. It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A receptacle. This connection relies on a spring that is subject to reduction in force when it gets hot. We have seen many of the back-wire receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat increases, creating more heat, etc. We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries that the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate object between one conductor and the other. I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor. It is also necessary to have control over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why there are listed torque specs. Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter. This unit uses the Wago terminal. There was no way I could get a meter probe into the Wago to measure line voltage. I had to take the cover off the electronics sections and measure voltage at the circuit board. I much prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto it. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dan Fink *Sent:* Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are relatively rare. So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC. How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 7 21:48:49 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 07 May 2021 18:48:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> References: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <73c451b49b23f19f02aec1f84c3c4763@127.0.0.1> I am with you William ! I also know that alot of rookies apply torque quickly. Torque needs to be slowly applied up to the rating. This allows the wire to take shape and not loosen up the connection later. Probably one of the biggest sources of connection failures is a loose connection that was not done right to begin with. Take your time on this one, or at least go back in a month or so and check it! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 7 May 2021 17:47:44 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago connector. It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A receptacle. This connection relies on a spring that is subject to reduction in force when it gets hot. We have seen many of the back-wire receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat increases, creating more heat, etc. We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries that the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate object between one conductor and the other. I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor. It is also necessary to have control over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why there are listed torque specs. Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter. This unit uses the Wago terminal. There was no way I could get a meter probe into the Wago to measure line voltage. I had to take the cover off the electronics sections and measure voltage at the circuit board. I much prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto it. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [3] CA Lic. 773985 FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]] ON BEHALF OF Dan Fink SENT: Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are relatively rare. So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC. How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector d [5]anbob88 at gmail.com [6] 970-672-4342 On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ [4] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [6] mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com [7] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 7 21:59:29 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 18:59:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> References: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wrenches, William Agree the push in connectors leave alot to be desired, however l have had no issue testing voltage at the connector in SMA. The industry is making installation of solar and for that matter most construction to easy and screw in lugs require more time and skill. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Fri, May 7, 2021, 6:25 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago > connector. It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A > receptacle. This connection relies on a spring that is subject to > reduction in force when it gets hot. We have seen many of the back-wire > receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat increases, creating more > heat, etc. > > > > We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries > that the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate > object between one conductor and the other. > > > > I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to > be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and > reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor. It is also necessary to > have control over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why > there are listed torque specs. > > > > Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter. > This unit uses the Wago terminal. There was no way I could get a meter > probe into the Wago to measure line voltage. I had to take the cover off > the electronics sections and measure voltage at the circuit board. I much > prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto > it. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan Fink > *Sent:* Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) > > > > Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, > Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just > specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, > because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, > and DC test platforms are relatively rare. > > > > So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks > compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under > UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a > 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to > 424.33 VDC. > > > > How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know! > > > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a > question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came > up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL > listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable > to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? > > > > I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. > Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. > > > > While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and > bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 > AWG inside junction boxes. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat May 8 11:04:58 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sat, 08 May 2021 11:04:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC transfer switch Message-ID: Hello, Any recommendations for sourcing a 600 vDC bypass / transfer switch? I know Morningstar used to make a manual stand-alone, but now it appears to be offered only as part of their HV charge controller. Thanks. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat May 8 13:12:46 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sat, 08 May 2021 13:12:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Breakers weakening? Message-ID: I have a system where the SE10000 inverter fried internally. The 60A AC output breaker tripped several times, as a result of the homeowner resetting over and over until he called me. I replaced the inverter under warranty and all is fine, except on sunny days the breaker will trip at about 40A, close to the max output of the inverter. Reset it outside of peak inverter output and its good. I assume the breaker has weakened from stress of some sort, so I replaced it and time will tell. Anyone ever seen a breaker have it's trip point reduced like this? Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat May 8 14:31:24 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 14:31:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> References: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64efe9d1-035b-4510-e9c1-17d8bc7ae56d@solarray.com> This whole high voltage connection discussion got me searching, and I found Phoenix Contact makes a DIN rail mount terminal block that is 1000 v rated.  That would seem to make way more sense than using MC 4 connects in a J box, and would provide the access for voltage readings and torque check that William mentioned.  Has anybody tried them? https://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?1dmy&urile=wcm%3apath%3a/usen/web/main/products/subcategory_pages/Modular_terminal_blocks_for_photovoltaics_P-15-09/eb8c193d-6a2d-4349-8f89-2d523fd5b04f Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/7/21 8:47 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago > connector.  It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A > receptacle.  This connection relies on a spring that is subject to > reduction in force when it gets hot.  We have seen many of the > back-wire receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat > increases, creating more heat, etc. > > We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or > batteries that the best connection does not have any washer or any > intermediate object between one conductor and the other. > > I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors > to be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can > determine and reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor.  It is > also necessary to have control over the pressure applied to the > connection, which is why there are listed torque specs. > > Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 > inverter.  This unit uses the Wago terminal.  There was no way I could > get a meter probe into the Wago to measure line voltage.  I had to > take the cover off the electronics sections and measure voltage at the > circuit board.  I much prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque > and get a meter probe onto it. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Dan > Fink > *Sent:* Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) > > Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, > 30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage > is just specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies > tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp > up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are relatively rare. > > So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks > compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector > under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math > backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would > be equivalent to 424.33 VDC. > > How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know! > > Dan Fink > > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > > 970-672-4342 > > > On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There > was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't > think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the > connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine > whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? > > I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very > effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits > up to 600 volts. > > While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for > grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices > for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat May 8 17:27:28 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 08 May 2021 14:27:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62c806f86b55e43d61742b909edf8859@127.0.0.1> One of the Wrenches reminded me about the Schneider Square D model below. It is huge and not inexpensive. I thought I had found a smaller one from Siemens but it only had a 250 vdc rating. Let us know if you find a smaller version with 600vdc. https://www.gordonelectricsupply.com/p/Square-D-Dtu361-Switch-Not-Fusible-Double-Throw-600Vac30A-3P-Nema1/974281?gclid=CjwKCAjw7diEBhB-EiwAskVi12i8KJ4-yoduJvpHiFKaFY_daSM9nCNrq9I14S-nolJDfigbgfQfvRoCB_MQAvD_BwE This is what you want to search for DOUBLE THROW 30 AMP 600-VOLT 3-POLE INDOOR NON-FUSIBLE SAFETY SWITCH Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 08 May 2021 11:04:58 -0400, "Kirk Herander, VSE" wrote: Hello, Any recommendations for sourcing a 600 vDC bypass / transfer switch? I know Morningstar used to make a manual stand-alone, but now it appears to be offered only as part of their HV charge controller. Thanks. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2021!!_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [3] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat May 8 18:55:14 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 08 May 2021 15:55:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC transfer switch In-Reply-To: <62c806f86b55e43d61742b909edf8859@127.0.0.1> References: <62c806f86b55e43d61742b909edf8859@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <54c1eecc7d85695379233fff61f0cf86@127.0.0.1> I think I gave you the wrong schneider P/N back tomorrow. Sorry! You want an off in the middle and switch the 600vdc to A up or B down I think. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 08 May 2021 14:27:28 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: One of the Wrenches reminded me about the Schneider Square D model below. It is huge and not inexpensive. I thought I had found a smaller one from Siemens but it only had a 250 vdc rating. Let us know if you find a smaller version with 600vdc. https://www.gordonelectricsupply.com/p/Square-D-Dtu361-Switch-Not-Fusible-Double-Throw-600Vac30A-3P-Nema1/974281?gclid=CjwKCAjw7diEBhB-EiwAskVi12i8KJ4-yoduJvpHiFKaFY_daSM9nCNrq9I14S-nolJDfigbgfQfvRoCB_MQAvD_BwE This is what you want to search for DOUBLE THROW 30 AMP 600-VOLT 3-POLE INDOOR NON-FUSIBLE SAFETY SWITCH Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 08 May 2021 11:04:58 -0400, "Kirk Herander, VSE" wrote: Hello, Any recommendations for sourcing a 600 vDC bypass / transfer switch? I know Morningstar used to make a manual stand-alone, but now it appears to be offered only as part of their HV charge controller. Thanks. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2021!!_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [5] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat May 8 19:26:59 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 19:26:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, Have you tried IMO (https://www.imoautomation.com/). I haven't seen any ATS units advertised, but they have a pretty extensive and reasonably priced listing of DC control equipment. Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 11:13 AM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > Hello, > Any recommendations for sourcing a 600 vDC bypass / transfer switch? I > know Morningstar used to make a manual stand-alone, but now it appears to > be offered only as part of their HV charge controller. Thanks. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Sat May 8 19:30:50 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 19:30:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, You did get the Square D part right. See the Schneider website, which shows that it is 600V DC and does have an off in the middle. https://www.se.com/us/en/product/DTU361/safety-switch%2C-double-throw%2C-non-fusible%2C-30a%2C-600-vac-vdc%2C-3-poles%2C-30-hp%2C-nema-1/ Cheers, Dave On Sat, May 8, 2021, 7:27 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Kirk, > Have you tried IMO (https://www.imoautomation.com/). I haven't seen any > ATS units advertised, but they have a pretty extensive and reasonably > priced listing of DC control equipment. > Howie > > *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* > > *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* > > *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* > > > On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 11:13 AM Kirk Herander, VSE > wrote: > >> Hello, >> Any recommendations for sourcing a 600 vDC bypass / transfer switch? I >> know Morningstar used to make a manual stand-alone, but now it appears to >> be offered only as part of their HV charge controller. Thanks. >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* >> >> *www.vermont.solar* >> >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Sat May 8 19:32:31 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 19:32:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Breakers weakening? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirk, Could there be a loose wire connection to the breaker? That could cause it to heat up an trip sooner than it otherwise would. Cheers, Dave On Sat, May 8, 2021, 2:13 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > I have a system where the SE10000 inverter fried internally. The 60A AC > output breaker tripped several times, as a result of the homeowner > resetting over and over until he called me. > I replaced the inverter under warranty and all is fine, except on sunny > days the breaker will trip at about 40A, close to the max output of the > inverter. Reset it outside of peak inverter output and its good. I assume > the breaker has weakened from stress of some sort, so I replaced it and > time will tell. > Anyone ever seen a breaker have it's trip point reduced like this? > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun May 9 08:56:05 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 08:56:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Breakers weakening? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm presuming this is a breaker in a load center. Breakers fail, that's not unusual. Breakers for inverters undergo constant load so they will run hot all the time and will be prone to failure. It may have always been out of tolerance, most applications never push the breaker close to the limit. I would just swap it and move on. On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:13 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > I have a system where the SE10000 inverter fried internally. The 60A AC > output breaker tripped several times, as a result of the homeowner > resetting over and over until he called me. > I replaced the inverter under warranty and all is fine, except on sunny > days the breaker will trip at about 40A, close to the max output of the > inverter. Reset it outside of peak inverter output and its good. I assume > the breaker has weakened from stress of some sort, so I replaced it and > time will tell. > Anyone ever seen a breaker have it's trip point reduced like this? > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun May 9 08:52:35 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 08:52:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Breakers weakening? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's what I expected to find, i.e. evidence of a heat event / loose connection at the breaker terminals (discolored and / or melted wire insulation, etc.), no visual evidence or smell. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/8/2021 7:32:53 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Kirk, Could there be a loose wire connection to the breaker? That could cause it to heat up an trip sooner than it otherwise would. Cheers, Dave On Sat, May 8, 2021, 2:13 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: I have a system where the SE10000 inverter fried internally. The 60A AC output breaker tripped several times, as a result of the homeowner resetting over and over until he called me. I replaced the inverter under warranty and all is fine, except on sunny days the breaker will trip at about 40A, close to the max output of the inverter. Reset it outside of peak inverter output and its good. I assume the breaker has weakened from stress of some sort, so I replaced it and time will tell. Anyone ever seen a breaker have it's trip point reduced like this? Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun May 9 09:14:10 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 09:14:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Breakers weakening? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The breaker is actually in a "connectder", a meter collar add-on which plugs into the meter socket, and the house meter plugs into it. It creates a point of interconnect outside of the house panel. Unfortunately the breaker itself cannot be removed and replaced. The entire collar must be. That's $365 to fix a $20 breaker. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/9/2021 8:56:27 AM, Chris Mason wrote: I'm presuming this is a breaker in a load center. Breakers fail, that's not unusual. Breakers for inverters undergo constant load so they will run hot all the time and will be prone to failure. It may have always been out of tolerance, most applications never push the breaker close to the limit. I would just swap it and move on. On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:13 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: I have a system where the SE10000 inverter fried internally. The 60A AC output breaker tripped several times, as a result of the homeowner resetting over and over until he called me. I replaced the inverter under warranty and all is fine, except on sunny days the breaker will trip at about 40A, close to the max output of the inverter. Reset it outside of peak inverter output and its good. I assume the breaker has weakened from stress of some sort, so I replaced it and time will tell. Anyone ever seen a breaker have it's trip point reduced like this? Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com [http://www.cometenergysystems.com/] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun May 9 09:26:37 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 09:26:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yep, I've used them before as high voltage array discos. But no double-throw models exist unfortunately. The IMO assembly looks identical to the ones used in all Solaredge on-board disconnects. Available in the US from www.industrialcontroldirect.com [www.industrialcontroldirect.com]. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/8/2021 7:27:24 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Kirk, Have you tried IMO (https://www.imoautomation.com/ [https://www.imoautomation.com/]).  I haven't seen any ATS units advertised, but they have a pretty extensive and reasonably priced listing of DC control equipment. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 11:13 AM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: Hello, Any recommendations for sourcing a 600 vDC bypass / transfer switch? I know Morningstar used to make a manual stand-alone, but now it appears to be offered only as part of their HV charge controller. Thanks. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sun May 9 10:09:38 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 07:09:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Breakers weakening? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yikes. Didn’t realize that about the ConnectDER. Repeated tripping due to a fault can certainly damage internal parts and contacts, leading to resistance and operation and lower than the rated current. Brian > On May 9, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > >  > The breaker is actually in a "connectder", a meter collar add-on which plugs into the meter socket, and the house meter plugs into it. It creates a point of interconnect outside of the house panel. Unfortunately the breaker itself cannot be removed and replaced. The entire collar must be. That's $365 to fix a $20 breaker. > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! > www.vermont.solar > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 >> On 5/9/2021 8:56:27 AM, Chris Mason wrote: >> >> I'm presuming this is a breaker in a load center. >> Breakers fail, that's not unusual. Breakers for inverters undergo constant load so they will run hot all the time and will be prone to failure. >> It may have always been out of tolerance, most applications never push the breaker close to the limit. >> I would just swap it and move on. >> >> On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:13 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: >>> I have a system where the SE10000 inverter fried internally. The 60A AC output breaker tripped several times, as a result of the homeowner resetting over and over until he called me. >>> I replaced the inverter under warranty and all is fine, except on sunny days the breaker will trip at about 40A, close to the max output of the inverter. Reset it outside of peak inverter output and its good. I assume the breaker has weakened from stress of some sort, so I replaced it and time will tell. >>> Anyone ever seen a breaker have it's trip point reduced like this? >>> >>> Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar >>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >>> Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! >>> www.vermont.solar >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> 802.863.1202 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Mason >> Solar systems designer >> Generac Generators Industrial technician >> >> Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar >> Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 >> WhatsApp 264.235.5670 >> Skype: netconcepts >> www.cometsolar.com >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sun May 9 10:14:29 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 07:14:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC transfer switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe the 30-200 A versions of Eaton/C-H’s line of heavy duty DPDT safety switches are 600 VDC. Brian > On May 9, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > >  > Yep, I've used them before as high voltage array discos. But no double-throw models exist unfortunately. The IMO assembly looks identical to the ones used in all Solaredge on-board disconnects. Available in the US from www.industrialcontroldirect.com. > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! > www.vermont.solar > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 >> On 5/8/2021 7:27:24 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: >> >> Kirk, >> Have you tried IMO (https://www.imoautomation.com/). I haven't seen any ATS units advertised, but they have a pretty extensive and reasonably priced listing of DC control equipment. >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> >> Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> >> >> On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 11:13 AM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Any recommendations for sourcing a 600 vDC bypass / transfer switch? I know Morningstar used to make a manual stand-alone, but now it appears to be offered only as part of their HV charge controller. Thanks. >>> >>> Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar >>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >>> Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! >>> www.vermont.solar >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> 802.863.1202 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 9 10:34:16 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 07:34:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Breakers_weakening=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2624a1185b00ddcba8f2ef7add759622@127.0.0.1> Not sure what specific design type of CB this is. You guys/gals do know that most CB's are designed to Failsafe. They will trip before the rating if there is anything internal that has been damaged or changed. Designed in for protection. It is extremely rare that a CB from a quality manufacturer will not trip. It could happen but I have not seen one. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 8 May 2021 19:32:31 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Kirk, Could there be a loose wire connection to the breaker? That could cause it to heat up an trip sooner than it otherwise would. Cheers, Dave On Sat, May 8, 2021, 2:13 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: I have a system where the SE10000 inverter fried internally. The 60A AC output breaker tripped several times, as a result of the homeowner resetting over and over until he called me. I replaced the inverter under warranty and all is fine, except on sunny days the breaker will trip at about 40A, close to the max output of the inverter. Reset it outside of peak inverter output and its good. I assume the breaker has weakened from stress of some sort, so I replaced it and time will tell. Anyone ever seen a breaker have it's trip point reduced like this? KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2021!!_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [3] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 [4] http://re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun May 9 11:39:19 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 11:39:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Breakers weakening? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3cbbaca429b3f3b4275bbccdf042e9ec@redwoodalliance.org> I've replaced breakers with those symptoms and solved the problem. --- On 2021-05-09 08:52, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > That's what I expected to find, i.e. evidence of a heat event / loose connection at the breaker terminals (discolored and / or melted wire insulation, etc.), no visual evidence or smell. > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > _Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!_ > > www.vermont.solar [1] > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > On 5/8/2021 7:32:53 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Kirk, > Could there be a loose wire connection to the breaker? That could cause it to heat up an trip sooner than it otherwise would. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Sat, May 8, 2021, 2:13 PM Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > I have a system where the SE10000 inverter fried internally. The 60A AC output breaker tripped several times, as a result of the homeowner resetting over and over until he called me. > I replaced the inverter under warranty and all is fine, except on sunny days the breaker will trip at about 40A, close to the max output of the inverter. Reset it outside of peak inverter output and its good. I assume the breaker has weakened from stress of some sort, so I replaced it and time will tell. > Anyone ever seen a breaker have it's trip point reduced like this? > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > _Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!_ > > www.vermont.solar [1] > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun May 9 20:19:01 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 20:19:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: <64efe9d1-035b-4510-e9c1-17d8bc7ae56d@solarray.com> References: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> <64efe9d1-035b-4510-e9c1-17d8bc7ae56d@solarray.com> Message-ID: <023b01d74532$17952290$46bf67b0$@glbcc.com> Soladeck has been offering their product with DIN rail mounted terminal blocks (I forget the manufacturer, Wiedmueller or Phoenix Contact maybe) for years now, and listed for 600VDC use. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2021 2:31 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) This whole high voltage connection discussion got me searching, and I found Phoenix Contact makes a DIN rail mount terminal block that is 1000 v rated. That would seem to make way more sense than using MC 4 connects in a J box, and would provide the access for voltage readings and torque check that William mentioned. Has anybody tried them? https://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?1dmy &urile=wcm%3apath%3a/usen/web/main/products/subcategory_pages/Modular_terminal_blocks_for_photovoltaics_P-15-09/eb8c193d-6a2d-4349-8f89-2d523fd5b04f Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/7/21 8:47 PM, William Miller wrote: Friends: Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago connector. It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A receptacle. This connection relies on a spring that is subject to reduction in force when it gets hot. We have seen many of the back-wire receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat increases, creating more heat, etc. We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries that the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate object between one conductor and the other. I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor. It is also necessary to have control over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why there are listed torque specs. Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter. This unit uses the Wago terminal. There was no way I could get a meter probe into the Wago to measure line voltage. I had to take the cover off the electronics sections and measure voltage at the circuit board. I much prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto it. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are relatively rare. So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC. How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun May 9 20:23:06 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 20:23:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> References: <21d21f58fb3c0220e750e712b5eabd96@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <024701d74532$a71bfe70$f553fb50$@glbcc.com> This technology has been in use for a dozen years in European equipment and has been used in many inverters that we install. It creates a gas-tight connection and is fully vetted through many manufacturers. I don’t think we need to be concerned about its ability to create a reliable connection when properly used – just as screw terminals and compression connections require proper preparation and installation, so do these. The metallurgy used in the springs is not that of a simple malleable material, but is specifically formulated to retain its tension throughout its lifetime. Of course heat will affect any connection, however it is not more of a concern with this type of connector than any other one in my opinion and experience. And they are not really like those terminals in the back of a duplex outlet, except in functionality… We can’t fight progress and technology continues to move ahead. These terminals have been reliable and less expensive, as well as less prone to user error that most other options available currently. IEC testing and millions of deployed parts show a history of reliability. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 8:48 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) Friends: Call me old fashioned, but I cannot get any confidence on the Wago connector. It seems somewhat akin to the back-wire mechanism on a 15A receptacle. This connection relies on a spring that is subject to reduction in force when it gets hot. We have seen many of the back-wire receptacles heat up and get more resistive as heat increases, creating more heat, etc. We have learned when connecting battery cables to inverters or batteries that the best connection does not have any washer or any intermediate object between one conductor and the other. I know wire nuts are not ideal (pun intended) but I like my conductors to be in direct contact, or under a screw terminal where I can determine and reconfirm the pressure placed on the conductor. It is also necessary to have control over the pressure applied to the connection, which is why there are listed torque specs. Yesterday I was measuring the line voltage on an SB Series 22 inverter. This unit uses the Wago terminal. There was no way I could get a meter probe into the Wago to measure line voltage. I had to take the cover off the electronics sections and measure voltage at the circuit board. I much prefer a screw terminal I can adjust the torque and get a meter probe onto it. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org ] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, May 7, 2021 4:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are relatively rare. So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC. How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun May 9 20:26:42 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 20:26:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <025101d74533$275e0240$761a06c0$@glbcc.com> I made the comment that they were not listed for use on DC circuits after I had reviewed the UL testing criteria, and the specifications from the manufacturer – It was not a lighthearted comment… -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 5:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sun May 9 20:26:42 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 20:26:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <025601d74533$287d2de0$797789a0$@glbcc.com> So like I said, although logic may dictate that it will operate at a high voltage DC level, having not been tested explicitly for that, it does not have UL listing – we will not use them on the DC side of our installations for that reason. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Friday, May 07, 2021 7:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) Jason; From the Wago 221 data sheet, it's listed to UL 486C, 600V, 30A, Use Group C (industrial) . I have a copy of UL486C, and voltage is just specified for dielectric testing. That standard specifies tests with AC, because it is easier (and cheaper) to generate and ramp up compared to DC, and DC test platforms are relatively rare. So my interpretation of UL486C is that because of AC voltage peaks compared to RMS (Vpeak = Vrms x 1,414), a 1000VAC rated connector under UL486C would need to be tested to 1414VDC. Working that math backwards, a 600VAC rating would mean the DC dielectric rating would be equivalent to 424.33 VDC. How that would apply to AHJs asking you questions, I do not know! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon May 10 14:55:50 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 12:55:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire Connectors) applies to *both* AC and DC voltages unless the product is specifically listed for *only *AC or DC. They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire that is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC? *Yes,* we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC? Can we use them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time for both AC and DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It doesn't need to be.* Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. But wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting device under UL486C. I hope this clears up any confusion. Best regards; Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a > question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came > up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL > listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable > to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? > > I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. > Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. > > While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and > bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 > AWG inside junction boxes. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon May 10 15:21:30 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 15:21:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Dan, that has also been my understanding of all listed equipment.  Certain switches etc will say on them "AC only", or give different DC ratings.  Otherwise the voltage listing is AC/DC. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/10/21 2:55 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today > regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing > products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire > Connectors) applies to */both/* AC and DC voltages unless the product > is specifically listed for /*only */AC or DC. > > They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire > that is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels > specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC? > *Yes,* we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC? > Can we use them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time > for both AC and DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It > doesn't need to be.* > > Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load > must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. > But wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting > device under UL486C. > > I hope this clears up any confusion. > > Best regards; > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There > was a question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't > think we came up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the > connectors are UL listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine > whether that is applicable to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? > > I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very > effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits > up to 600 volts. > > While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for > grounding and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices > for conductors up to #10 AWG inside junction boxes. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 10 15:23:36 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 15:23:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree and I just got written confirmation from Wago that said (regarding the 221-4XX series): WAGO's U.L. Recognition for Series 221 does Not differentiate between AC or DC Just Not to exceed 20A 600V Building Wire or 1000V Luminaires or Signs No Special designation is required. On Mon, May 10, 2021, 2:56 PM Dan Fink wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today > regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing > products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire > Connectors) applies to *both* AC and DC voltages unless the product is > specifically listed for *only *AC or DC. > > They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire that > is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels > specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC? *Yes,* > we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC? Can we use > them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time for both AC and > DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It doesn't need to be.* > > Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load > must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. But > wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting device under > UL486C. > > I hope this clears up any confusion. > > Best regards; > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a >> question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came >> up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL >> listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable >> to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? >> >> I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. >> Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. >> >> While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and >> bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 >> AWG inside junction boxes. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon May 10 16:06:32 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 16:06:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kudos to Dan Fink. Nice job. Just another reason to send a donation to Michael Welch. Christopher On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:29 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I agree and I just got written confirmation from Wago that said (regarding > the 221-4XX series): > > WAGO's U.L. Recognition for Series 221 does Not differentiate between AC > or DC Just Not to exceed 20A > > 600V Building Wire or 1000V Luminaires or Signs > > No Special designation is required. > > On Mon, May 10, 2021, 2:56 PM Dan Fink wrote: > >> Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today >> regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing >> products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire >> Connectors) applies to *both* AC and DC voltages unless the product is >> specifically listed for *only *AC or DC. >> >> They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire that >> is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels >> specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC? >> *Yes,* we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC? >> Can we use them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time for >> both AC and DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It doesn't need >> to be.* >> >> Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load >> must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. But >> wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting device under >> UL486C. >> >> I hope this clears up any confusion. >> >> Best regards; >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d anbob88 at gmail.com >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a >>> question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came >>> up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL >>> listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable >>> to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? >>> >>> I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very effective. >>> Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to 600 volts. >>> >>> While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding and >>> bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to #10 >>> AWG inside junction boxes. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 10 18:16:17 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 18:16:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Data Manager M Message-ID: Has anyone ever seen the local interface logo just spin and never get to the local interface page? I can see the Data Manager from the Sunny Portal side and it appears to be responsive, but the local interface does not work. It never did since it was installed. SMA Tech support suggested a factory reset and if that didn't work that the unit is faulty and would need to be replaced. Something doesn't sound right to me with that explanation since everything else seems to work. I tried with Chrome on Mac, Safari, and Android browsers and the same thing happens on all devices and browers after bypassing the https security alert. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 10 18:20:30 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 18:20:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wago Connectors (221 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is one more thing to consider that just hit me while looking at a Wago. I don't think the insulation of a #10 PV wire is going to fit into the 221-6XX connector. I need to check on that. On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 4:06 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > Kudos to Dan Fink. Nice job. Just another reason to send a donation to > Michael Welch. > > Christopher > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:29 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I agree and I just got written confirmation from Wago that said >> (regarding the 221-4XX series): >> >> WAGO's U.L. Recognition for Series 221 does Not differentiate between AC >> or DC Just Not to exceed 20A >> >> 600V Building Wire or 1000V Luminaires or Signs >> >> No Special designation is required. >> >> On Mon, May 10, 2021, 2:56 PM Dan Fink wrote: >> >>> Esteemed Wrenches; I spoke with engineers at both Wago and 3M today >>> regarding the AC vs. DC ratings of Wago 221 and other wire splicing >>> products. Both engineers stated that standard UL486C (Splicing Wire >>> Connectors) applies to *both* AC and DC voltages unless the product is >>> specifically listed for *only *AC or DC. >>> >>> They both gave the example that the same applies to the actual wire that >>> is being spliced: Is the THWN-2 wire we use inside DC OCPD panels >>> specifically UL rated for DC? *No (UL83)*. Is it acceptable for DC? >>> *Yes,* we use it all the time for DC circuits. How about USE-2 and MC? >>> Can we use them for both AC and DC? *Yes, *we use them all the time for >>> both AC and DC. Is it specifically UL rated for DC? *No. It doesn't >>> need to be.* >>> >>> Of course any wiring device that *disconnects *any circuit under load >>> must be rated for either AC, DC or both depending on the application. But >>> wire splicing connectors are not intended as a disconnecting device under >>> UL486C. >>> >>> I hope this clears up any confusion. >>> >>> Best regards; >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> d anbob88 at gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 3:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> In another thread these connectors were discussed recently. There was a >>>> question regarding the suitability for DC circuits. I don't think we came >>>> up with any answers or consensus on that. I see the connectors are UL >>>> listed to the 486C standard. I can't determine whether that is applicable >>>> to AC and DC circuits. Does anyone know? >>>> >>>> I have only used these on AC circuits and they have been very >>>> effective. Now I'm curious whether they can be used on DC circuits up to >>>> 600 volts. >>>> >>>> While on the subject, I noticed they are UL 467 listed for grounding >>>> and bonding. That's helpful where you have EGC splices for conductors up to >>>> #10 AWG inside junction boxes. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> > > -- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon May 10 21:56:21 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 18:56:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall Message-ID: <47762277d69cb28a3cc7f7d505c3a4ca@127.0.0.1> Wrenches, I testted the RESU 10 48V here for Schneider back in 2017. LG never really wanted to know the root cause of the failure and cancelled the use of XW with their battery. One of my Austrailian friends sent me this about the recall. In December last year, LG Energy Solution triggered a voluntary recall in the USA [1] after receiving five reports of fires resulting in minor property damage. These incidents were associated with LG Chem RESU 10H residential energy storage systems with specific serial numbers sold from January 2017 through March 2019. The recall involved around 1,800 battery systems. On Friday, a recall notice was posted on the Product Safety Australia web site for the following models with cells manufactured between March 2017 and September 2018 from certain production lots. * RESU7H_Type R * RESU10 * RESU10H Type-C * RESU10H_Type R * EM048063P3S4 * EM048126P3S7 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [3] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2020/lg-energy-solution-michigan-recalls-home-energy-storage-batteries-due-to-fire-hazard [2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Mon May 10 22:22:58 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 16:22:58 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall In-Reply-To: <47762277d69cb28a3cc7f7d505c3a4ca@127.0.0.1> References: <47762277d69cb28a3cc7f7d505c3a4ca@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Whoa...amazing that almost 1/2 year after the recall that I'm now just hearing about this. How has LGC been as far as responsive and easy to work with on this recall? marco On Monday, May 10, 2021, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > > I testted the RESU 10 48V here for Schneider back in 2017. LG never really > wanted to know the root cause of the failure and cancelled the use of XW > with their battery. One of my Austrailian friends sent me this about the > recall. > > > > In December last year, LG Energy Solution triggered a voluntary recall in > the USA > after > receiving five reports of fires resulting in minor property damage. These > incidents were associated with LG Chem RESU 10H residential energy storage > systems with specific serial numbers sold from January 2017 through March > 2019. The recall involved around 1,800 battery systems. > > On Friday, a recall notice was posted on the Product Safety Australia web > site for the following models with cells manufactured between March 2017 > and September 2018 from certain production lots. > > - RESU7H_Type R > - RESU10 > - RESU10H Type-C > - RESU10H_Type R > - EM048063P3S4 > - EM048126P3S7 > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Tue May 11 07:50:39 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 06:50:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall In-Reply-To: References: <47762277d69cb28a3cc7f7d505c3a4ca@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <017601d7465b$dda49cc0$98edd640$@solarcentex.com> I suspect that if you didn’t hear about it, you might not have any effected batteries. The recall has been disorganized. We had about 7 batteries under recall. LGC had some 3rd party outfit that was going to go to customer homes and do the swap-out and we said, “oh, no…we’ll replace the batteries for our customers thank you.” I still have three batteries with unconfirmed replacement. The shortage of old style Resu10 batteries means they must, in their own words, buy these batteries off the open market place to provide back to us and end consumers under recall. Crazy. Now I am a big fan of the LG Prime 16 so far. Nice looking package and just the right amount of storage. But the LG oversight of the recall could have been done better especially comms with installers that didn’t have recalls so they could allay fears of homeowners that might have read a headline and wondered if their battery was a safety hazard. Scot Arey Solar CenTex From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 9:23 PM To: offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall Whoa...amazing that almost 1/2 year after the recall that I'm now just hearing about this. How has LGC been as far as responsive and easy to work with on this recall? marco On Monday, May 10, 2021, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: Wrenches, I testted the RESU 10 48V here for Schneider back in 2017. LG never really wanted to know the root cause of the failure and cancelled the use of XW with their battery. One of my Austrailian friends sent me this about the recall. In December last year, LG Energy Solution triggered a voluntary recall in the USA after receiving five reports of fires resulting in minor property damage. These incidents were associated with LG Chem RESU 10H residential energy storage systems with specific serial numbers sold from January 2017 through March 2019. The recall involved around 1,800 battery systems. On Friday, a recall notice was posted on the Product Safety Australia web site for the following models with cells manufactured between March 2017 and September 2018 from certain production lots. * RESU7H_Type R * RESU10 * RESU10H Type-C * RESU10H_Type R * EM048063P3S4 * EM048126P3S7 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue May 11 14:24:54 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:24:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> <0efcaafb18792c8ea243c046c21737a5@127.0.0.1> <72d2b9d9-f55e-3591-9652-99371c3e131b@villagelab.net> Message-ID: Hi All, I talked to Sol-Ark again yesterday and thought this was certainly worth sharing: For this particular design, there is a whole house generator. For generators over 10kw (this one is 13kw), they recommend keeping the generator in its existing ATS, and feeding it in through the grid connection. So when grid is up, grid power will be available, and when the grid is down, then the inverter can start the generator for generator power if need be. This then frees up the generator input for the AC coupled solar. With only the AC coupled solar on the GEN input, there is better tracking of the solar on the monitoring platform, because there is a designated input for it. Plus, with a firmware update that they just released, the inverter can now open the GEN input when it calls for the generator. So essentially, the inverter is now responsible for cutting off the solar input when the generator is on. Cheers, Dave On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 9:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Thanks! I thought this was for Offgrid and that was my mistake. > > Will it run a 15A table saw without losing power, or was that just too > much expertise? I will wait 3 years on anything that is suppose to replace > what I already use. I have a low opinion of the all in one for Offgrid > anyways. Especially a non low frequency design. Maybe time will change my > opinion. Thanks for the info! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 7 May 2021 17:48:59 -0700, Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > > Dave A. - Sol-Arks' "GEN" breaker can be used for 1 of 3 operations only > - Generator, AC Coupling OR Smart Load (Load Shedding) So when you are > grid-interactive (which takes up your GRID breaker) and you have PV and a > Generator - the way to go is to have no AC Coupling - put the Grid and Gen > where they belong and enjoy the high efficiency and smart control of DC > Coupling, Time of Use control (for the Genny,the Grid and the Batteries) > - all in the mid to high 90's efficiency that the Sol-Ark provides. > > I know Dave T that you already have an installed Enphase system that > probably needs to be Rapid Shutdown compliant as well AND that you have a > whole house genny - however - I still would take a strong look at the > economic tradeoffs of rewiring the array to DC - (could install Tigo RS) - > and splitting the whole house Gen output to the Sol-Ark and probably > existing Transfer switch. We are just saying - now you are utilizing your > equipment to the max! May not be economically feasible labor and > additional hardware wise in this situation. But I surely would do the math > and look at that tradeoff seriously - perhaps give that option to your > customer to make the economic decision - would result in long term happy > customer and most energy utilized with least fuel costs. > > I'll let that case rest! Gees! all you asked for was some relay advice! > See what you get with this List!? too much expertise! :) > > Have fun, > > Jeff C. > Village Power Design > > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > May 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM > > I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple with > a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs. > > For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or genset > that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large microgrid with > many houses and a skilled person on site, it could be used as a second > best method to DC coupling everything. > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines > don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski > > wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jason Szumlanski > May 7, 2021 at 9:21 AM > I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid systems > when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the worst case > scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so some WSW-facing > AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load and go into darkness > with full batteries. > > If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can simultaneously do > AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the MPPTs and use the GRID > input for the generator. > > Jason > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan > May 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM > I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is not > the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a grid-tied > system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a whole house > generator set up. > Cheers, > Dave > > > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jerry Shafer > May 7, 2021 at 8:10 AM > I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not > good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump > enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will > work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC > coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say > that. KISS is better > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspector > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > May 6, 2021 at 7:33 AM > > I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule > of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. > > > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines > don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan > May 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM > I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? > A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. > OR > B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the > generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the > generator and breaks it. > > For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I > would think option B would be worse. > > Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? > > Cheers, > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Chris Schaefer > May 4, 2021 at 1:41 PM > Jason, > > A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if > there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. > > Christopher > > > > -- > > Chris Schaefer's > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jason Szumlanski > May 4, 2021 at 1:03 PM > What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that > is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a > failsafe solution. > > Jason > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Drake > May 4, 2021 at 12:08 PM > P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback > literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no > complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V > contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly > expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. > > At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > May 4, 2021 at 7:02 AM > Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the > 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the > contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters > through the contacts from common to N/C. > > --- > > > > > On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Tedeyan > May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM > Hi All, > > I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery > backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC > coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark > about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule > to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the > issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. > > I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the > solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, > although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This > seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is > needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Tue May 11 15:35:06 2021 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 12:35:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark In-Reply-To: References: <0bafd3ffbac9738647f12d398cc1ab94@redwoodalliance.org> <1620155289356.03092b243e6ee869@redwoodalliance.org> <0efcaafb18792c8ea243c046c21737a5@127.0.0.1> <72d2b9d9-f55e-3591-9652-99371c3e131b@villagelab.net> Message-ID: Just remember to turn off the AC coupled solar when manually starting the generator! *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Tue, 11 May 2021 at 11:25, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > I talked to Sol-Ark again yesterday and thought this was certainly worth > sharing: > For this particular design, there is a whole house generator. For > generators over 10kw (this one is 13kw), they recommend keeping the > generator in its existing ATS, and feeding it in through the grid > connection. So when grid is up, grid power will be available, and when the > grid is down, then the inverter can start the generator for generator power > if need be. > > This then frees up the generator input for the AC coupled solar. With only > the AC coupled solar on the GEN input, there is better tracking of the > solar on the monitoring platform, because there is a designated input for > it. Plus, with a firmware update that they just released, the inverter can > now open the GEN input when it calls for the generator. So essentially, the > inverter is now responsible for cutting off the solar input when the > generator is on. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Fri, May 7, 2021 at 9:06 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Thanks! I thought this was for Offgrid and that was my mistake. >> >> Will it run a 15A table saw without losing power, or was that just too >> much expertise? I will wait 3 years on anything that is suppose to replace >> what I already use. I have a low opinion of the all in one for Offgrid >> anyways. Especially a non low frequency design. Maybe time will change my >> opinion. Thanks for the info! >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Fri, 7 May 2021 17:48:59 -0700, Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >> >> Dave A. - Sol-Arks' "GEN" breaker can be used for 1 of 3 operations only >> - Generator, AC Coupling OR Smart Load (Load Shedding) So when you are >> grid-interactive (which takes up your GRID breaker) and you have PV and a >> Generator - the way to go is to have no AC Coupling - put the Grid and Gen >> where they belong and enjoy the high efficiency and smart control of DC >> Coupling, Time of Use control (for the Genny,the Grid and the Batteries) >> - all in the mid to high 90's efficiency that the Sol-Ark provides. >> >> I know Dave T that you already have an installed Enphase system that >> probably needs to be Rapid Shutdown compliant as well AND that you have a >> whole house genny - however - I still would take a strong look at the >> economic tradeoffs of rewiring the array to DC - (could install Tigo RS) - >> and splitting the whole house Gen output to the Sol-Ark and probably >> existing Transfer switch. We are just saying - now you are utilizing your >> equipment to the max! May not be economically feasible labor and >> additional hardware wise in this situation. But I surely would do the math >> and look at that tradeoff seriously - perhaps give that option to your >> customer to make the economic decision - would result in long term happy >> customer and most energy utilized with least fuel costs. >> >> I'll let that case rest! Gees! all you asked for was some relay >> advice! See what you get with this List!? too much expertise! :) >> >> Have fun, >> >> Jeff C. >> Village Power Design >> >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> May 7, 2021 at 3:25 PM >> >> I do not know much about Sol-Arc, but one can AC couple and DC couple >> with a Radian or XW. The genset is on the genset input where it belongs. >> >> For Offgrid AC coupling is just another way to damage a battery or genset >> that does not need to be there. I suppose in a really large microgrid with >> many houses and a skilled person on site, it could be used as a second >> best method to DC coupling everything. >> >> >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines >> don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Fri, 7 May 2021 12:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski >> >> wrote: >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> May 7, 2021 at 9:21 AM >> I like the idea of some small amount of AC Coupled PV for off-grid >> systems when there is a known consistent daytime load. Around here the >> worst case scenario involves afternoon air conditioning in summer, so some >> WSW-facing AC coupled PV is an efficient way to cover that load and go into >> darkness with full batteries. >> >> If I understand things correctly, with a Sol-Ark you can simultaneously >> do AC coupling on the GEN input and DC coupling on the MPPTs and use the >> GRID input for the generator. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> May 7, 2021 at 8:41 AM >> I would certainly agree with you all that AC coupled for off-grid is not >> the best design choice. But just for clarification, this is a grid-tied >> system where there is already an Enphase M215 system and a whole house >> generator set up. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> >> -- >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> [image: Sungineer Solar] >> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Cell: 607-288-2898 >> www.sungineersolar.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Jerry Shafer >> May 7, 2021 at 8:10 AM >> I have to agree with Dave on this, complex and off grid generally are not >> good together, l sugest backing up and you might consider a redesign, dump >> enphase, go directly in to the inverter DC side, now a gen set back up will >> work. Your spending more time and effort going in a bad direction. AC >> coupling for resi is not a great solution to start with and Solark even say >> that. KISS is better >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV Inspector >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> May 6, 2021 at 7:33 AM >> >> I would not do any of this for an offgrid client. It is against the rule >> of less is more. The whole design is flawed in my opinion. >> >> >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar"we go where powerlines >> don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 4 May 2021 19:24:13 -0400, Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> May 4, 2021 at 4:24 PM >> I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode? >> A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it. >> OR >> B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the >> generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the >> generator and breaks it. >> >> For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I >> would think option B would be worse. >> >> Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Chris Schaefer >> May 4, 2021 at 1:41 PM >> Jason, >> >> A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if >> there is a failure it would transition closed or not open. >> >> Christopher >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Chris Schaefer's >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> May 4, 2021 at 1:03 PM >> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that >> is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a >> failsafe solution. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Drake >> May 4, 2021 at 12:08 PM >> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback >> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no >> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V >> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly >> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. >> >> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote: >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >> May 4, 2021 at 7:02 AM >> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the >> 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the >> contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters >> through the contacts from common to N/C. >> >> --- >> >> >> >> >> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Dave Tedeyan >> May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM >> Hi All, >> >> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery >> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC >> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark >> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule >> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the >> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. >> >> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the >> solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, >> although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This >> seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is >> needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> [image: Sungineer Solar] >> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Cell: 607-288-2898 >> www.sungineersolar.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Tue May 11 18:14:52 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 18:14:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall Message-ID: <1F64DDEC-0B81-4413-8620-2685917BF1E1@sunwindpowerinc.com> I just read about this in our local electric coop (propaganda) newsletter. I haven’t been impressed with LG’s post sale support on any of their products. We had a system with bad solder joints causing arc fault issues (replacement of the entire array was the only thing that stopped the issue) and could not get any response from them. Their warranty is basically useless IMO, so we have steered clear. Here’s the clipping on the batteries: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 557012 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- From william at millersolar.com Tue May 11 18:50:12 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:50:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall In-Reply-To: <017601d7465b$dda49cc0$98edd640$@solarcentex.com> References: <47762277d69cb28a3cc7f7d505c3a4ca@127.0.0.1> <017601d7465b$dda49cc0$98edd640$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <348a4a0bd5fc67436da8327bbf0584ba@mail.gmail.com> Friends: A while back we went to a presentation put on at our local Greentech dealer. Speaking was a rep from LG Chem and from SolarEdge. I asked the LG rep if there had been any production problems with the LG production line. He said with a straight face there were no problems and we should order now before they ran out. I pulled up a trade article on my phone about a shut down in the production line at LG Chem and we passed it around in the back of the room and sniggered. I am not saying all LG Chem reps are liars but this one sure was. I hope this behavior is not encouraged by LG Chem. Hearing a poor report on the recall is further evidence that LG Chem may not be a good company to buy product from. What is the overall sataisfaction level amongst this forum members with LG CHem? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *scot.arey at solarcentex.com *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 4:51 AM *To:* 'RE-wrenches'; offgridsolar at sti.net *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall I suspect that if you didn’t hear about it, you might not have any effected batteries. The recall has been disorganized. We had about 7 batteries under recall. LGC had some 3rd party outfit that was going to go to customer homes and do the swap-out and we said, “oh, no…we’ll replace the batteries for our customers thank you.” I still have three batteries with unconfirmed replacement. The shortage of old style Resu10 batteries means they must, in their own words, buy these batteries off the open market place to provide back to us and end consumers under recall. Crazy. Now I am a big fan of the LG Prime 16 so far. Nice looking package and just the right amount of storage. But the LG oversight of the recall could have been done better especially comms with installers that didn’t have recalls so they could allay fears of homeowners that might have read a headline and wondered if their battery was a safety hazard. Scot Arey Solar CenTex *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf *Sent:* Monday, May 10, 2021 9:23 PM *To:* offgridsolar at sti.net; RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall Whoa...amazing that almost 1/2 year after the recall that I'm now just hearing about this. How has LGC been as far as responsive and easy to work with on this recall? marco On Monday, May 10, 2021, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Wrenches, I testted the RESU 10 48V here for Schneider back in 2017. LG never really wanted to know the root cause of the failure and cancelled the use of XW with their battery. One of my Austrailian friends sent me this about the recall. In December last year, LG Energy Solution triggered a voluntary recall in the USA after receiving five reports of fires resulting in minor property damage. These incidents were associated with LG Chem RESU 10H residential energy storage systems with specific serial numbers sold from January 2017 through March 2019. The recall involved around 1,800 battery systems. On Friday, a recall notice was posted on the Product Safety Australia web site for the following models with cells manufactured between March 2017 and September 2018 from certain production lots. - RESU7H_Type R - RESU10 - RESU10H Type-C - RESU10H_Type R - EM048063P3S4 - EM048126P3S7 *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar* *"we go where powerlines don't"* *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ * *e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net * *text 209 813 0060* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed May 12 10:17:49 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 10:17:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Distributor Message-ID: <5cd4226c54db712d5e2abc6f179d7f62@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrench Colleagues, Can anyone recommend a distributor for Onan or Kohler generator that accepts new dealer applications? These seem to be the top two units for backup systems, but I'm open to other suggestions. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed May 12 10:48:15 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 07:48:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall In-Reply-To: <348a4a0bd5fc67436da8327bbf0584ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <47762277d69cb28a3cc7f7d505c3a4ca@127.0.0.1> <017601d7465b$dda49cc0$98edd640$@solarcentex.com> <348a4a0bd5fc67436da8327bbf0584ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <28ee4eade34ddeddf005a0d3cefd21c2@127.0.0.1> LG was one of the first players in 2016 for resdential storage. They are a huge manufacturer of NMC type lithium batteries. We all know now that is type of battery NMC is not as safe as type LFP, all other things being equal. The cell type we used is still the upgrade option in the Tesla Roadster BTW. I thought it was unreasonable that they did not want to find the root cause of the failure here with Schneider XW. It is their company and I got over it. Schneider was great and they also learned alot. Discover AES was in the loop with the failure here and learned also. Many of the folks at AES are from Schneider. AES engineered out all of the bad design choices that LG made and hit a homerun. The failure symtom was a blown 200A fuse with little load at 85% Soc. Replacing the fuse, the battery came on and showed 98% Sol or battery health. A new fuse was installed and the battery BMS powered up and blew the 200A fuse in a couple seconds. We tried a few DC 48V rated small loads to rule out the inrush of an XW. We tried a different XW and also tried a CSW. Lot's of blown fuses...My guess was a cell breaking down under load. Still trying to recycle this bad battery responsibly. I know what is done currently in my area and it is not pretty. Anyone with advice? LG was of no help here also. The other LG RESU 10 here is fine but we limit it to a CSW and 1/2 of the rated charge current. It is on my list to send a check to the Wrench boss here this week! Cheers ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 11 May 2021 15:50:12 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: A while back we went to a presentation put on at our local Greentech dealer. Speaking was a rep from LG Chem and from SolarEdge. I asked the LG rep if there had been any production problems with the LG production line. He said with a straight face there were no problems and we should order now before they ran out. I pulled up a trade article on my phone about a shut down in the production line at LG Chem and we passed it around in the back of the room and sniggered. I am not saying all LG Chem reps are liars but this one sure was. I hope this behavior is not encouraged by LG Chem. Hearing a poor report on the recall is further evidence that LG Chem may not be a good company to buy product from. What is the overall sataisfaction level amongst this forum members with LG CHem? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [3] CA Lic. 773985 FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [4]] ON BEHALF OF scot.arey at solarcentex.com [5] SENT: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 4:51 AM TO: 'RE-wrenches'; offgridsolar at sti.net [6] SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall I suspect that if you didn't hear about it, you might not have any effected batteries. The recall has been disorganized. We had about 7 batteries under recall. LGC had some 3rd party outfit that was going to go to customer homes and do the swap-out and we said, "oh, no...we'll replace the batteries for our customers thank you." I still have three batteries with unconfirmed replacement. The shortage of old style Resu10 batteries means they must, in their own words, buy these batteries off the open market place to provide back to us and end consumers under recall. Crazy. Now I am a big fan of the LG Prime 16 so far. Nice looking package and just the right amount of storage. But the LG oversight of the recall could have been done better especially comms with installers that didn't have recalls so they could allay fears of homeowners that might have read a headline and wondered if their battery was a safety hazard. Scot Arey Solar CenTex FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Marco Mangelsdorf SENT: Monday, May 10, 2021 9:23 PM TO: offgridsolar at sti.net [8]; RE-wrenches SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] LG Energy Solution Battery Recall Whoa...amazing that almost 1/2 year after the recall that I'm now just hearing about this. How has LGC been as far as responsive and easy to work with on this recall? marco On Monday, May 10, 2021, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Wrenches, I testted the RESU 10 48V here for Schneider back in 2017. LG never really wanted to know the root cause of the failure and cancelled the use of XW with their battery. One of my Austrailian friends sent me this about the recall. In December last year, LG Energy Solution triggered a voluntary recall in the USA [11] after receiving five reports of fires resulting in minor property damage. These incidents were associated with LG Chem RESU 10H residential energy storage systems with specific serial numbers sold from January 2017 through March 2019. The recall involved around 1,800 battery systems. On Friday, a recall notice was posted on the Product Safety Australia web site for the following models with cells manufactured between March 2017 and September 2018 from certain production lots. * RESU7H_Type R * RESU10 * RESU10H Type-C * RESU10H_Type R * EM048063P3S4 * EM048126P3S7 DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR "WE GO WHERE POWERLINES DON'T" E-MAIL TEXT 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ [4] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:scot.arey at solarcentex.com [6] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [7] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [9] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [11] https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2020/lg-energy-solution-michigan-recalls-home-energy-storage-batteries-due-to-fire-hazard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Fri May 14 03:04:04 2021 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 21:04:04 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name That Roof Top Racking! Message-ID: Aloha All, Would anybody happen to know what kind of ballasted racking this is below? I would guess that this system is close to 10 years old? [image: image.png] Any help would be greatly appreciated. Mahalo, James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1354963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 14 10:06:05 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 07:06:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Name That Roof Top Racking! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sun link, based in Marin County Ca.. aluminum and stainless steel, theycan be tilted to vertical to get under modules, was one of the first big array little to no penitrations Jerry On Fri, May 14, 2021, 6:27 AM James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha All, > Would anybody happen to know what kind of ballasted racking this is below? > I would guess that this system is close to 10 years old? > > [image: image.png] > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Mahalo, > > > > > James B. Rudolph > > Independent Energy C-36080 > > ES #10816 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 > > C. 808.313.9701 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1354963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri May 14 10:13:22 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 10:13:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Distributor In-Reply-To: <5cd4226c54db712d5e2abc6f179d7f62@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5cd4226c54db712d5e2abc6f179d7f62@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: My search for dealership options for Onan/Cummings and Kohler does not seem to be turning up any good options. Generac, on the other hand is eager to have me. Unfortunately, having an inverter control their generator will void the warranty at present. The rep told me they have a new option that will allow this, coming out at the end of the year. They have a system with a battery and inverter that can be used for energy storage. Generac is pushing that hard. It is not useful for my present needs. Does anyone know of a good place to buy an appropriate backup generator for a photovoltaic system? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-05-12 10:17, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hello Wrench Colleagues, > > Can anyone recommend a distributor for Onan or Kohler generator that > accepts new dealer applications? > > These seem to be the top two units for backup systems, but I'm open to > other suggestions. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 14 10:29:54 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 07:29:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Distributor In-Reply-To: <5cd4226c54db712d5e2abc6f179d7f62@redwoodalliance.org> References: <5cd4226c54db712d5e2abc6f179d7f62@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Cummins west, San leandro Ca. On Wed, May 12, 2021, 7:18 AM wrote: > Hello Wrench Colleagues, > > Can anyone recommend a distributor for Onan or Kohler generator that > accepts new dealer applications? > > These seem to be the top two units for backup systems, but I'm open to > other suggestions. > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri May 14 10:39:28 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 08:39:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Distributor In-Reply-To: References: <5cd4226c54db712d5e2abc6f179d7f62@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Super tough to get generators right now. We sell quite a few Kohler for off-grid purposes and we just can't get them. We have had 18 of them on order for a ~a year and we have been a small dealer for years. The supply lines were devastated by the pandemic and the demand is through the roof. This is the case for both Kohler & Generac at least, not sure about Cummins. Good Luck to you and let us know if you do find somewhere that has them. On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 8:30 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Cummins west, San leandro Ca. > > On Wed, May 12, 2021, 7:18 AM > wrote: > >> Hello Wrench Colleagues, >> >> Can anyone recommend a distributor for Onan or Kohler generator that >> accepts new dealer applications? >> >> These seem to be the top two units for backup systems, but I'm open to >> other suggestions. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Fri May 14 12:02:01 2021 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland - RES) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 06:02:01 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Distributor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70D34151-FC18-44F9-B9A0-4FB8B49A36DB@renewablenergy.com> Generac's Ecogen model is warranted for off grid use. But they too are backed up on orders. > Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. > Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 www.renewablenergy.com > On May 14, 2021, at 4:13 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > My search for dealership options for Onan/Cummings and Kohler does not seem to be turning up any good options. Generac, on the other hand is eager to have me. Unfortunately, having an inverter control their generator will void the warranty at present. The rep told me they have a new option that will allow this, coming out at the end of the year. > > They have a system with a battery and inverter that can be used for energy storage. Generac is pushing that hard. It is not useful for my present needs. > > Does anyone know of a good place to buy an appropriate backup generator for a photovoltaic system? > > Thank you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > --- > > >> On 2021-05-12 10:17, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> Hello Wrench Colleagues, >> Can anyone recommend a distributor for Onan or Kohler generator that >> accepts new dealer applications? >> These seem to be the top two units for backup systems, but I'm open to >> other suggestions. >> Thank you, >> Drake >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 14 14:14:42 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 11:14:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator Distributor In-Reply-To: <70D34151-FC18-44F9-B9A0-4FB8B49A36DB@renewablenergy.com> References: <70D34151-FC18-44F9-B9A0-4FB8B49A36DB@renewablenergy.com> Message-ID: I had to wait a few weeks on Honda for an Alaska client. They may need a propane conversion. They also just keep running forever with decent maintenance. https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu7000is Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 14 May 2021 06:02:01 -1000, Roland - RES wrote: Generac's Ecogen model is warranted for off grid use. But they too are backed up on orders. Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. Roland Shackelford NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. Mobile: 808-938-9239 [3] www.renewablenergy.com [4] On May 14, 2021, at 4:13 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: My search for dealership options for Onan/Cummings and Kohler does not seem to be turning up any good options. Generac, on the other hand is eager to have me. Unfortunately, having an inverter control their generator will void the warranty at present. The rep told me they have a new option that will allow this, coming out at the end of the year. They have a system with a battery and inverter that can be used for energy storage. Generac is pushing that hard. It is not useful for my present needs. Does anyone know of a good place to buy an appropriate backup generator for a photovoltaic system? Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-05-12 10:17, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: Hello Wrench Colleagues, Can anyone recommend a distributor for Onan or Kohler generator that accepts new dealer applications? These seem to be the top two units for backup systems, but I'm open to other suggestions. Thank you, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://808-938-9239/ [4] http://www.renewablenergy.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri May 14 23:24:12 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 23:24:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU7000is remote starting. Message-ID: I have a customer with a Honda EU7000is generator that has the propane conversion and wireless remote starting setup with on/off and start button. I want to set it up to start with an Outback Mate3s and aux relay in a VFXR3648. (2 wire start). Has anyone found a way to do this other than a third party auto start module? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri May 14 23:37:53 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 20:37:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU7000is remote starting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Atkinson GSCM converter control 3 wire On Fri, May 14, 2021, 8:24 PM John Blittersdorf wrote: > I have a customer with a Honda EU7000is generator that has the propane > conversion and wireless remote starting setup with on/off and start > button. I want to set it up to start with an Outback Mate3s and aux relay > in a VFXR3648. (2 wire start). Has anyone found a way to do this other than > a third party auto start module? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat May 15 12:15:20 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 09:15:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU7000is remote starting. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA28B48-AD11-41C2-AC9B-D78F08126355@gmail.com> https://generator-line.com/wireless-remotes/ So much better than Atkinson. Simple, no power drain on the battery, doesn’t need to be reset like the Atkins if the generator fails to start, and not glitchy. Just two relays to mimic manual starting procedure and factory connectors. 2-wire start only > On May 14, 2021, at 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Wrenches > Atkinson GSCM converter control 3 wire > > On Fri, May 14, 2021, 8:24 PM John Blittersdorf > wrote: > I have a customer with a Honda EU7000is generator that has the propane conversion and wireless remote starting setup with on/off and start button. I want to set it up to start with an Outback Mate3s and aux relay in a VFXR3648. (2 wire start). Has anyone found a way to do this other than a third party auto start module? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat May 15 19:00:36 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 17:00:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU7000is remote starting. In-Reply-To: <4BA28B48-AD11-41C2-AC9B-D78F08126355@gmail.com> References: <4BA28B48-AD11-41C2-AC9B-D78F08126355@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03149ACF-7B09-4FFA-9AAF-516D58304A5F@gmail.com> I have used this product and I agree that its easy and works well. However, on the 3 propane honda 7kEU units i’ve installed them on, they all have the same issue, they don’t work when its cold, say 30-45F. The generator won’t start on the first and only try that the unit below will do. And the OB only does 1 attempt. I’ve had to install some added timers so that it will do 2 start attempts, with it usually starting on the second attempt. Maybe others have found some other technique how to get them to start on the first try. Jay Peltz Power > On May 15, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > > https://generator-line.com/wireless-remotes/ > > So much better than Atkinson. Simple, no power drain on the battery, doesn’t need to be reset like the Atkins if the generator fails to start, and not glitchy. Just two relays to mimic manual starting procedure and factory connectors. 2-wire start only > > >> On May 14, 2021, at 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: >> >> Wrenches >> Atkinson GSCM converter control 3 wire >> >> On Fri, May 14, 2021, 8:24 PM John Blittersdorf > wrote: >> I have a customer with a Honda EU7000is generator that has the propane conversion and wireless remote starting setup with on/off and start button. I want to set it up to start with an Outback Mate3s and aux relay in a VFXR3648. (2 wire start). Has anyone found a way to do this other than a third party auto start module? >> >> John Blittersdorf >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sat May 15 22:07:49 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 19:07:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Display for Xantrex 250kw inverters Message-ID: <748CBCEB-5DA6-4D58-A076-39B2DAC7E9DD@millersolar.com> Friends: I am working on two Xantrex 250 kW inverters. They are about 15 years old. Both have failed displays. Anyone have any laying around or know where I can source two of them? Thanks in advance. William Miller www.millersolar.com From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun May 16 10:15:30 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 07:15:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU7000is remote starting. In-Reply-To: <03149ACF-7B09-4FFA-9AAF-516D58304A5F@gmail.com> References: <4BA28B48-AD11-41C2-AC9B-D78F08126355@gmail.com> <03149ACF-7B09-4FFA-9AAF-516D58304A5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3e1ae9f497ef94f2881ddb72b4372e8f@127.0.0.1> I do not use AGS and if my clients want it, they have to sign a waiver on my help for insurance. They are timebombs and I do get why people want them. The stock honda remote start works fine down until it hits freezing or if the altitude gets about 4,000 feet. No techniques Jay. Honda does know about the cold start issue and has said so publicly. My cold weather folks way up north keep the genset in a shed or room off the garage that keeps the batteries and genset warm 40+F. When they leave in winter for long periods is when the teardrops can fall if they are not careful. Awesome machine that eu7000i. Hate to say it but when it really is cold, you have to move from propane to diesil. The EU kit for conversion I have used is either Central Maine Diesil or these folks in the screenshot. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 15 May 2021 17:00:36 -0600, jay wrote: I have used this product and I agree that its easy and works well. However, on the 3 propane honda 7kEU units i've installed them on, they all have the same issue, they don't work when its cold, say 30-45F. The generator won't start on the first and only try that the unit below will do. And the OB only does 1 attempt. I've had to install some added timers so that it will do 2 start attempts, with it usually starting on the second attempt. Maybe others have found some other technique how to get them to start on the first try. Jay Peltz Power On May 15, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Michael Morningstar wrote: https://generator-line.com/wireless-remotes/ [4] So much better than Atkinson. Simple, no power drain on the battery, doesn't need to be reset like the Atkins if the generator fails to start, and not glitchy. Just two relays to mimic manual starting procedure and factory connectors. 2-wire start only On May 14, 2021, at 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Atkinson GSCM converter control 3 wire On Fri, May 14, 2021, 8:24 PM John Blittersdorf wrote: I have a customer with a Honda EU7000is generator that has the propane conversion and wireless remote starting setup with on/off and start button. I want to set it up to start with an Outback Mate3s and aux relay in a VFXR3648. (2 wire start). Has anyone found a way to do this other than a third party auto start module? John Blittersdorf _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [7] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [14] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"> MICHAEL MORNINGSTAR _MORNINGSTAR ELECTRIC_ PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [18] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [19] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:mjmorningstar at gmail.com [4] https://generator-line.com/wireless-remotes/ [5] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [6] mailto:john.blittersdorf at gmail.com [7] http://re-wrenches.org/ [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [14] http://re-wrenches.org/ [15] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [18] http://re-wrenches.org [19] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: eu7000i propane conversion kit.PNG Type: image/png Size: 285786 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Sun May 16 18:15:31 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 15:15:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU7000is remote starting. In-Reply-To: <3e1ae9f497ef94f2881ddb72b4372e8f@127.0.0.1> References: <4BA28B48-AD11-41C2-AC9B-D78F08126355@gmail.com> <03149ACF-7B09-4FFA-9AAF-516D58304A5F@gmail.com> <3e1ae9f497ef94f2881ddb72b4372e8f@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <088A78E7-77B3-4D25-AF2D-D248C13A526A@me.com> I always tried to avoid doing the conversions myself with the Atkinsons products but have had great success with the kits from Genconnex.direct.net for awhile now. I never get involved with generator sales but pretty sure they just went up by about $600 from the time my customer purchased one just a few months ago. They come completely converted to propane and auto start with the GSCM mini and extremely easy to integrate with most of the inverters we all use. Recently had issues with the EU7000 unit not quite starting after a few cranks since the Mini version waited too long in between cycles then after being unsuccessful a few times we’d have to reset the Mini by pulling the controller’s power fuse and then it would typically start on the second round of start signals. Apparently an issue with the internal solenoid that’s installed by Genconnex due to safety reasons for site’s lacking the proper shutoffs. Atkinsons was great to work with and replaced it with the NEGC version that just goes with a 10 second delay in between attempts versus 40. Wasn’t aware of the Generator Line of products. Thanks for that Michael! Nick > On May 16, 2021, at 7:15 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I do not use AGS and if my clients want it, they have to sign a waiver on my help for insurance. They are timebombs and I do get why people want them. The stock honda remote start works fine down until it hits freezing or if the altitude gets about 4,000 feet. > > No techniques Jay. Honda does know about the cold start issue and has said so publicly. My cold weather folks way up north keep the genset in a shed or room off the garage that keeps the batteries and genset warm 40+F. When they leave in winter for long periods is when the teardrops can fall if they are not careful. > > Awesome machine that eu7000i. Hate to say it but when it really is cold, you have to move from propane to diesil. The EU kit for conversion I have used is either Central Maine Diesil or these folks in the screenshot. > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Sat, 15 May 2021 17:00:36 -0600, jay wrote: > >> I have used this product and I agree that its easy and works well. >> >> However, on the 3 propane honda 7kEU units i've installed them on, they all have the same issue, they don't work when its cold, say 30-45F. The generator won't start on the first and only try that the unit below will do. And the OB only does 1 attempt. I've had to install some added timers so that it will do 2 start attempts, with it usually starting on the second attempt. >> >> Maybe others have found some other technique how to get them to start on the first try. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> >>> On May 15, 2021, at 10:15 AM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: >>> >>> https://generator-line.com/wireless-remotes/ >>> >>> So much better than Atkinson. Simple, no power drain on the battery, doesn't need to be reset like the Atkins if the generator fails to start, and not glitchy. Just two relays to mimic manual starting procedure and factory connectors. 2-wire start only >>> >>> >>>> On May 14, 2021, at 8:37 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: >>>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> Atkinson GSCM converter control 3 wire >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 14, 2021, 8:24 PM John Blittersdorf > wrote: >>>> I have a customer with a Honda EU7000is generator that has the propane conversion and wireless remote starting setup with on/off and start button. I want to set it up to start with an Outback Mate3s and aux relay in a VFXR3648. (2 wire start). Has anyone found a way to do this other than a third party auto start module? >>>> >>>> John Blittersdorf >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> Morningstar Electric >>> PO Box 1494 >>> Mount Shasta, California 96067 >>> 530-921-0560 >>> CSLB 949635 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Mon May 17 08:59:41 2021 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 08:59:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack Inverters Message-ID: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> I am considering swapping in new OutBack inverters into one of my neighborhoods 24V off grid systems. It now has two FX2524's. The demands on the system have grown, now a two family home with a 240Vac mini-split for air conditioning and a 240Vac Grundfos SQ 1/2hp sub pump to be added this summer to the system. Drilling a well for a back-up to the gravity fed spring water which has been getting too low during the past few summers. I'm assuming that I should go with two VFXR3524's. Will this be a direct swap in as far as having the same wiring setup into an OutBack Flexware system? And will it work with an older Mate? Anything else I should know about these OutBack "R" inverters? Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 17 10:24:39 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 08:24:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack Inverters In-Reply-To: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> References: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi dave You’ll need a new hub and mate 3S. And check to make sure the main breakers are 250 amp. Jay Peltz power. > On May 17, 2021, at 8:21 AM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: > >  > I am considering swapping in new OutBack inverters into one of my neighborhoods 24V off grid systems. It now has two FX2524’s. The demands on the system have grown, now a two family home with a 240Vac mini-split for air conditioning and a 240Vac Grundfos SQ 1/2hp sub pump to be added this summer to the system. Drilling a well for a back-up to the gravity fed spring water which has been getting too low during the past few summers. > I’m assuming that I should go with two VFXR3524’s. > Will this be a direct swap in as far as having the same wiring setup into an OutBack Flexware system? And will it work with an older Mate? > Anything else I should know about these OutBack “R” inverters? > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Mon May 17 10:31:18 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 09:31:18 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack Inverters In-Reply-To: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> References: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <35F321FD-17D1-4F12-A3ED-21CFC7A2A380@mavericksolar.com> Now is a good chance to see if switching to 48V is feasible. Can the battery bank be easily rewired for 48V and does the existing VOC support 60V or so. Switching to 48V gives the charge controllers immediately more headroom for future additional panels that will be needed with the added loads. I also recommend getting the new mate3s and connecting to OpticsRE. It’s a great way to see what going with the system over time. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On May 17, 2021, at 9:21 AM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: > >  > I am considering swapping in new OutBack inverters into one of my neighborhoods 24V off grid systems. It now has two FX2524’s. The demands on the system have grown, now a two family home with a 240Vac mini-split for air conditioning and a 240Vac Grundfos SQ 1/2hp sub pump to be added this summer to the system. Drilling a well for a back-up to the gravity fed spring water which has been getting too low during the past few summers. > I’m assuming that I should go with two VFXR3524’s. > Will this be a direct swap in as far as having the same wiring setup into an OutBack Flexware system? And will it work with an older Mate? > Anything else I should know about these OutBack “R” inverters? > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon May 17 14:12:11 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 14:12:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack Inverters In-Reply-To: <35F321FD-17D1-4F12-A3ED-21CFC7A2A380@mavericksolar.com> References: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> <35F321FD-17D1-4F12-A3ED-21CFC7A2A380@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: The VOC for a 48 VBB is to low for most batteries. IF there is a combiner box and there is a even # of OCD then I have rewired the DC input ( remove the + from 1 OCD and connect it to module #2’s negative wire) to increase the DC input. OR there are a # of higher voltages of charge controllers that make it easy to reconfigure array input voltages to the CC. Batteries IF there are 8, 16 six volt batteries then sure. > On May 17, 2021, at 10:31 AM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > Now is a good chance to see if switching to 48V is feasible. Can the battery bank be easily rewired for 48V and does the existing VOC support 60V or so. Switching to 48V gives the charge controllers immediately more headroom for future additional panels that will be needed with the added loads. > > I also recommend getting the new mate3s and connecting to OpticsRE. It’s a great way to see what going with the system over time. > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > >> On May 17, 2021, at 9:21 AM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: >> >>  >> I am considering swapping in new OutBack inverters into one of my neighborhoods 24V off grid systems. It now has two FX2524’s. The demands on the system have grown, now a two family home with a 240Vac mini-split for air conditioning and a 240Vac Grundfos SQ 1/2hp sub pump to be added this summer to the system. Drilling a well for a back-up to the gravity fed spring water which has been getting too low during the past few summers. >> I’m assuming that I should go with two VFXR3524’s. >> Will this be a direct swap in as far as having the same wiring setup into an OutBack Flexware system? And will it work with an older Mate? >> Anything else I should know about these OutBack “R” inverters? >> >> Dave Palumbo >> Hyde Park, VT >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump at swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon May 17 14:43:50 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 12:43:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U Message-ID: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> Does anyone know if you can convert a SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? Without using a boost transformer. Thx Jay Peltz power. From william at millersolar.com Mon May 17 15:28:00 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 12:28:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> References: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> Jay: Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U Does anyone know if you can convert a SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? Without using a boost transformer. Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From coresolar at gmail.com Mon May 17 16:35:10 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 15:35:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Message-ID: Wrenches, I see that this topic was discussed back in 2015 and there were some excellent resources shared on how to electrically integrate PV arrays with existing lightning protection systems (LPS). I am curious if anyone has any advice about how to physically/mechanically integrate a commercial rooftop array with an LPS—particularly wondering what to do when we encounter a network or web of LPS cabling laid out across the roof. I am assuming we should not simply move the cabling without first consulting with the LPS contractor... Can a ballasted racking system viably be placed over top of the cabling? Can ballast bases be placed directly on top of the cabling? or be made to somehow span over or be elevated above the cabling? Or is this just a case where we need to limit the PV array to whatever areas of the roof offer the least interference/convergence with LPS cabling? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon May 17 23:41:08 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 21:41:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack Inverters In-Reply-To: References: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The "R" inverters have had a persistent issue that the list discussed recently. You get an error "inverter firmware mismatch". This results in losing a phase and then can be cleared by power cycling the Mate 3s and will work ok for a while and then repeat. The latest firmware for the Mate3s attempts to solve this but we will see... This has been an ongoing and frustrating issue with the fxr inverters. In my experience, this doesn't happen with fx inverters, or Radian inverters at all. Outback tech support had been all over the place on this but I think, with this latest firmwate release, acknowledge the issue. Good luck On Mon, May 17, 2021, 4:43 PM Jay wrote: > Hi dave > > You’ll need a new hub and mate 3S. > > > And check to make sure the main breakers are 250 amp. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > > > > On May 17, 2021, at 8:21 AM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: > >  > > I am considering swapping in new OutBack inverters into one of my > neighborhoods 24V off grid systems. It now has two FX2524’s. The demands on > the system have grown, now a two family home with a 240Vac mini-split for > air conditioning and a 240Vac Grundfos SQ 1/2hp sub pump to be added this > summer to the system. Drilling a well for a back-up to the gravity fed > spring water which has been getting too low during the past few summers. > > I’m assuming that I should go with two VFXR3524’s. > > Will this be a direct swap in as far as having the same wiring setup into > an OutBack Flexware system? And will it work with an older Mate? > > Anything else I should know about these OutBack “R” inverters? > > > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue May 18 06:42:06 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 06:42:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. If its a new installation, a savvy utility  / AHJ will catch this. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U Does anyone know if you can convert a SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? Without using a boost transformer. Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue May 18 10:53:49 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 10:53:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OutBack Inverters In-Reply-To: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> References: <003801d74b1c$80c105a0$824310e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave, An Alternate solution might be to find two good used VFX3524's. All circuit boards are available from Zonna if they need repair. I have one if you could find another somewhere. Contact me off list if interested. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ CV Wind Service (and solar) 200 West Road N Chittenden, VT 05763 802-770-8625 www.offgridvermont.com On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 4:18 PM wrote: > I am considering swapping in new OutBack inverters into one of my > neighborhoods 24V off grid systems. It now has two FX2524’s. The demands on > the system have grown, now a two family home with a 240Vac mini-split for > air conditioning and a 240Vac Grundfos SQ 1/2hp sub pump to be added this > summer to the system. Drilling a well for a back-up to the gravity fed > spring water which has been getting too low during the past few summers. > > I’m assuming that I should go with two VFXR3524’s. > > Will this be a direct swap in as far as having the same wiring setup into > an OutBack Flexware system? And will it work with an older Mate? > > Anything else I should know about these OutBack “R” inverters? > > > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue May 18 14:07:08 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 14:07:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: References: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <022d01d74c10$a068cf10$e13a6d30$@glbcc.com> Hi Kirk, Can you elaborate on which UL standards the older SB units don’t comply with? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:42 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. If its a new installation, a savvy utility / AHJ will catch this. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: Jay: Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U Does anyone know if you can convert a SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? Without using a boost transformer. Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue May 18 14:22:08 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 14:22:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <024301d74c12$b7484c90$25d8e5b0$@glbcc.com> I would think the existing LPS, if as extensive as you suggest, would need to have its interconnections removed, and the LPS installer contracted to re-evaluate and re-install an LPS that also integrates the new array into its protection scheme. I am assuming this is a commercial rooftop installation, not a residential, pitched roof one. -Glenn From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Corey Shalanski Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 4:35 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Integrating with Lightning Protection Wrenches, I see that this topic was discussed back in 2015 and there were some excellent resources shared on how to electrically integrate PV arrays with existing lightning protection systems (LPS). I am curious if anyone has any advice about how to physically/mechanically integrate a commercial rooftop array with an LPS—particularly wondering what to do when we encounter a network or web of LPS cabling laid out across the roof. I am assuming we should not simply move the cabling without first consulting with the LPS contractor... Can a ballasted racking system viably be placed over top of the cabling? Can ballast bases be placed directly on top of the cabling? or be made to somehow span over or be elevated above the cabling? Or is this just a case where we need to limit the PV array to whatever areas of the roof offer the least interference/convergence with LPS cabling? -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 18 15:15:51 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 12:15:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: <022d01d74c10$a068cf10$e13a6d30$@glbcc.com> References: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> <022d01d74c10$a068cf10$e13a6d30$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <5b889687635eff305c0de0430ae8f96e@127.0.0.1> Probably if it is old it does not have these recent Certifications and UL requirements. Just gave these to my local AHJ. IEEE 1547, UL 1741-SA, Rule 21, Rule 14H, PREPA, and CSA 107.1 Product Certification History Project Date Description 80049402 2020-09-18 Update to report 70194014 to meet grid support function according to CA Rule 21 for 120Vac output configuration. 80036281 2020-03-15 Update report 70194014 to include UL1741 CRD SA17/18 UL 1741(California Rule 21 Phase 3 Function 2 and Function 3) for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 80020062 2019-10-30 Update report 70194014 to include firmware upgrade for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70220117 2019-03-27 Update Report 70194014 to include minor firmware update for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70212688 2019-03-04 Update Report 70194014 to Include Volt-Watt and revised Freq-Watt grid tie requirements as per UL1741 Supplement SA for Model XW Pro 6848 NA (FGA 865-6848-21). Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 18 May 2021 14:07:08 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: Hi Kirk, Can you elaborate on which UL standards the older SB units don't comply with? -Glenn FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Kirk Herander, VSE SENT: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:42 AM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. If its a new installation, a savvy utility / AHJ will catch this. KIRK HERANDER / OWNER|PRINCIPAL, VT SOLAR, LLC _CELEBRATING OUR 30TH ANNIVERSARY 1991-2021!!_ WWW.VERMONT.SOLAR [3] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [5] CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6]] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U Does anyone know if you can convert a SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? Without using a boost transformer. Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [7] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [14] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 [4] mailto:william at millersolar.com [5] http://www.millersolar.com [6] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] http://re-wrenches.org [15] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 18 17:24:41 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 14:24:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules crimps Message-ID: <69b844288bad804180f0714a363e485d@mail.gmail.com> Friends: Do any of you have a preferred make, model and supplier of ferrule crimps and crimp tool you would recommend? Thanks in advance, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Tue May 18 18:03:14 2021 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 16:03:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules crimps In-Reply-To: <69b844288bad804180f0714a363e485d@mail.gmail.com> References: <69b844288bad804180f0714a363e485d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7BAED248-8626-4045-AF38-A6FD29169109@gmail.com> William, I have used various brands of both ferrules and crimp tools. Most of the ferrules I have used are German-made by the Weidmuller brand, these seem to be private labeled by Greenlee and others. Highly recommended. I’ve also had good luck with less expensive ferrules sold through various silly nonsense-brands on Amazon. I recently upgraded to a Rennsteig automatic crimping tool and it’s very smooth and nicely made. It adjusts automatically up to #6AWG, though one has to fiddle with the tension lever a little bit to keep from crimping too deeply on smaller ferrules. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO 81144 sgsrenewables at gmail.com 719.588.3044 > On May 18, 2021, at 15:41, William Miller wrote: > >  > Friends: > > Do any of you have a preferred make, model and supplier of ferrule crimps and crimp tool you would recommend? > > Thanks in advance, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue May 18 18:14:24 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 18:14:24 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules crimps Message-ID: I have used Panduit insulated ferrules for over 30 years, long before I got to be a solar bozo!-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: William MillerDate: Tue, May 18, 2021 5:41 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Ferrules crimpsFriends: Do any of you have a preferred make, model and supplier of ferrule crimps and crimp tool you would recommend? Thanks in advance, William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue May 18 18:29:38 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 15:29:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ferrules crimps In-Reply-To: <69b844288bad804180f0714a363e485d@mail.gmail.com> References: <69b844288bad804180f0714a363e485d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William, Years ago we were buying ferrules and ferrule crimpers to deal with the extra fine stranded conductors coming with microinverter trunk cabling at the time. I think it was PowerOne / ABB. Anyway, if that's the type of ferrules you need, we got them from ferrulesdirect.com. Ferrule crimper FD2810HX - hexagonal profile crimping tool 28 to 10 AWG N60012 - 10AWG ferrules N40012 - 12AWG ferrules This is not to be confused with the Ideal / Buchanan splice caps and insulators being discussed on this list recently: https://www.amazon.com/Ideal-145669-C24-Crimp-Tool/dp/B000HEKRWA/ref=asc_df_B000HEKRWA/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198090983914&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9042077521548131149&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031951&hvtargid=pla-349901866765&psc=1 August On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 2:41 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > Do any of you have a preferred make, model and supplier of ferrule crimps > and crimp tool you would recommend? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at solarcowboyz.com Tue May 18 20:24:28 2021 From: louis at solarcowboyz.com (louis at solarcowboyz.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 17:24:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U Message-ID: <20210518172428.9cbc0dcf5f80a0dc982e07761d51a7ae.6c9d87bb5b.wbe@email05.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue May 18 19:03:49 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 19:03:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: <022d01d74c10$a068cf10$e13a6d30$@glbcc.com> References: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> <022d01d74c10$a068cf10$e13a6d30$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: "IEEE 1547-1" certification is required at least in the New England ISO document which our utilities abide by. IEEE 1547 does not qualify. My local utility denied my approval for installation last year of a old SMA2500U inverter for this reason.  Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/18/2021 2:07:28 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: Hi Kirk,   Can you elaborate on which UL standards the older SB units don’t comply with?   -Glenn   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:42 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U   These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. If its a new installation, a savvy utility  / AHJ will catch this.   Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller wrote: Jay: Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [http://www.millersolar.com] CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org]] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U Does anyone know if you can convert a SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? Without using a boost transformer. Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [http://re-wrenches.org] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue May 18 21:22:59 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 18:22:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: <5b889687635eff305c0de0430ae8f96e@127.0.0.1> References: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> <022d01d74c10$a068cf10$e13a6d30$@glbcc.com> <5b889687635eff305c0de0430ae8f96e@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Wrenches I would also be surprised if the old 2500 would last very long. Better off with a SB5.0-41 and if you need RSD then add that in also. On Tue, May 18, 2021, 12:15 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Probably if it is old it does not have these recent Certifications and UL > requirements. Just gave these to my local AHJ. > > IEEE 1547, UL 1741-SA, Rule 21, Rule 14H, PREPA, and CSA 107.1 > > Product Certification History Project Date Description 80049402 2020-09-18 > Update to report 70194014 to meet grid support function according to CA > Rule 21 for 120Vac output configuration. 80036281 2020-03-15 Update report > 70194014 to include UL1741 CRD SA17/18 UL 1741(California Rule 21 Phase 3 > Function 2 and Function 3) for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 80020062 2019-10-30 > Update report 70194014 to include firmware upgrade for Model XW Pro 6848 > NA. 70220117 2019-03-27 Update Report 70194014 to include minor firmware > update for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70212688 2019-03-04 Update Report 70194014 > to Include Volt-Watt and revised Freq-Watt grid tie requirements as per > UL1741 Supplement SA for Model XW Pro 6848 NA (FGA 865-6848-21). > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 18 May 2021 14:07:08 -0400, "Glenn Burt" > wrote: > > Hi Kirk, > > > > Can you elaborate on which UL standards the older SB units don't comply > with? > > > > -Glenn > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Kirk Herander, VSE > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:42 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U > > > > These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. > If its a new installation, a savvy utility / AHJ will catch this. > > > > *Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned > out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the > inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the > arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] On > Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U > > Does anyone know if you can convert a > SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? > > Without using a boost transformer. > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 18 21:54:11 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 19:54:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1397ADF8-D04F-48E9-BF9D-3C7985592689@gmail.com> Dear wrenches I did not include the back story as it is not relevant to my inquiry. However given the comments I decided to include it in that it will hopefully clear up any confusion. Where I used to live, the local community radio station ( poorly funded) has a old PV system with you guessed it a SMA SB2500U that was installed brand new a long time ago. It failed and a replacement was located for $150. But it was 208 and not 240vac, which someone didn’t catch when ordering it. A buck/boost transformer allows it to work but adds tare losses that we were trying to remove. It is my understanding that a like for like component swap is covered under code rules. Regardless, no inspection or calls to the county permit office were made or will be made. One of the great joys of living very rurally. Back to my original post about how to or if it’s possible to convert a 208 to 240vac SMA SB2500U, which appears to be no, thanks to all who contacted me. Jay Peltz Power. > On May 18, 2021, at 7:23 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Wrenches > I would also be surprised if the old 2500 would last very long. > Better off with a SB5.0-41 and if you need RSD then add that in also. > >> On Tue, May 18, 2021, 12:15 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> Probably if it is old it does not have these recent Certifications and UL requirements. Just gave these to my local AHJ. >> >> IEEE 1547, UL 1741-SA, Rule 21, Rule 14H, PREPA, and CSA 107.1 >> >> Product Certification History Project Date Description 80049402 2020-09-18 Update to report 70194014 to meet grid support function according to CA Rule 21 for 120Vac output configuration. 80036281 2020-03-15 Update report 70194014 to include UL1741 CRD SA17/18 UL 1741(California Rule 21 Phase 3 Function 2 and Function 3) for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 80020062 2019-10-30 Update report 70194014 to include firmware upgrade for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70220117 2019-03-27 Update Report 70194014 to include minor firmware update for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70212688 2019-03-04 Update Report 70194014 to Include Volt-Watt and revised Freq-Watt grid tie requirements as per UL1741 Supplement SA for Model XW Pro 6848 NA (FGA 865-6848-21). >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >>> On Tue, 18 May 2021 14:07:08 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: >>> >>> Hi Kirk, >>> >>> >>> >>> Can you elaborate on which UL standards the older SB units don't comply with? >>> >>> >>> >>> -Glenn >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:42 AM >>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U >>> >>> >>> >>> These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. If its a new installation, a savvy utility / AHJ will catch this. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar >>> >>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >>> >>> Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! >>> >>> www.vermont.solar >>> >>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>> >>> 802.863.1202 >>> >>> On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >>> >>> Jay: >>> >>> Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned >>> out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the >>> inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the >>> arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> 805-438-5600 >>> www.millersolar.com >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>> Behalf Of Jay >>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U >>> >>> Does anyone know if you can convert a >>> SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? >>> >>> Without using a boost transformer. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>> other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue May 18 23:06:57 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 20:06:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: <1397ADF8-D04F-48E9-BF9D-3C7985592689@gmail.com> References: <1397ADF8-D04F-48E9-BF9D-3C7985592689@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6B3F7057-975F-44D7-8E20-37913079298A@millersolar.com> Jay: The back story is sometimes useful. Thank you for filling in the details. I have a soft spot for community radio. I also have some used, working SB 2500U inverters on the shelf. I’d be happy to send you one. Contact me off list. The used inverter offered came from an art-house theater. These were the units I ordered for 208 by mistake and had to send back to be made 240. They were replaced by TL-21 inverters. See this link if you are curious. https://www.thepalmtheatre.com/about-us I agree that in most cases we need to comply with updated standards. I have on occasion bent the rules to apply an in-stock inverter that does not meet the latest and greatest requirements to replace an older unit. For example I am pretty lenient with clients that want to remove an antiquated AES1000 or other inverter and put in something newer without stirring the hornets-nest of utility or building department approval. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On May 18, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Jay wrote: > >  > Dear wrenches > > I did not include the back story as it is not relevant to my inquiry. However given the comments I decided to include it in that it will hopefully clear up any confusion. > > Where I used to live, the local community radio station ( poorly funded) has a old PV system with you guessed it a SMA SB2500U that was installed brand new a long time ago. > It failed and a replacement was located for $150. But it was 208 and not 240vac, which someone didn’t catch when ordering it. > A buck/boost transformer allows it to work but adds tare losses that we were trying to remove. > > It is my understanding that a like for like component swap is covered under code rules. Regardless, no inspection or calls to the county permit office were made or will be made. One of the great joys of living very rurally. > > Back to my original post about how to or if it’s possible to convert a 208 to 240vac SMA SB2500U, which appears to be no, thanks to all who contacted me. > > Jay > > Peltz Power. > >>> On May 18, 2021, at 7:23 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>  >> Wrenches >> I would also be surprised if the old 2500 would last very long. >> Better off with a SB5.0-41 and if you need RSD then add that in also. >> >>> On Tue, May 18, 2021, 12:15 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >>> Probably if it is old it does not have these recent Certifications and UL requirements. Just gave these to my local AHJ. >>> >>> IEEE 1547, UL 1741-SA, Rule 21, Rule 14H, PREPA, and CSA 107.1 >>> >>> Product Certification History Project Date Description 80049402 2020-09-18 Update to report 70194014 to meet grid support function according to CA Rule 21 for 120Vac output configuration. 80036281 2020-03-15 Update report 70194014 to include UL1741 CRD SA17/18 UL 1741(California Rule 21 Phase 3 Function 2 and Function 3) for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 80020062 2019-10-30 Update report 70194014 to include firmware upgrade for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70220117 2019-03-27 Update Report 70194014 to include minor firmware update for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70212688 2019-03-04 Update Report 70194014 to Include Volt-Watt and revised Freq-Watt grid tie requirements as per UL1741 Supplement SA for Model XW Pro 6848 NA (FGA 865-6848-21). >>> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >>> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >>> text 209 813 0060 >>>> On Tue, 18 May 2021 14:07:08 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Kirk, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Can you elaborate on which UL standards the older SB units don't comply with? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Glenn >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:42 AM >>>> To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. If its a new installation, a savvy utility / AHJ will catch this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar >>>> >>>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC >>>> >>>> Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! >>>> >>>> www.vermont.solar >>>> >>>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >>>> >>>> 802.863.1202 >>>> >>>> On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller wrote: >>>> >>>> Jay: >>>> >>>> Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned >>>> out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the >>>> inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the >>>> arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. >>>> >>>> William Miller >>>> >>>> Miller Solar >>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>>> 805-438-5600 >>>> www.millersolar.com >>>> CA Lic. 773985 >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Jay >>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U >>>> >>>> Does anyone know if you can convert a >>>> SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? >>>> >>>> Without using a boost transformer. >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >>>> other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Wed May 19 12:14:54 2021 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 12:14:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SHW? Message-ID: Anyone on here still doing solar hot water? We have an orphaned system in Rutland County, Vermont that needs service. Referrals appreciated. -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Wed May 19 13:11:52 2021 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 17:11:52 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SHW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wish I could help you Nik. I'm doing everything I can to keep the hot water flowing in San Diego for all the legacy Jimmy Carter systems out there (in addition to the wonderful new ones). SHW IS ALIVE! and please to all my renewable brother's and sister's out there don't forget it's value.. Thermal is worth your time for so many reasons.. Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nik Ponzio, Building Energy Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 9:14:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SHW? Anyone on here still doing solar hot water? We have an orphaned system in Rutland County, Vermont that needs service. Referrals appreciated. -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com Wed May 19 16:03:08 2021 From: solarenergysolutions at yahoo.com (Solar Energy Solutions) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 13:03:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SHW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63B1B574-7031-4A67-A1E1-3F50AC93F629@yahoo.com> If you could explain the system or attach some photos we can probably talk you through anything. Feel free to call but you’ll have to double ring us because we don’t pick up out-of-state calls. Smiles, Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. The BRIGHT CHOICE Since 1987, helping you and your Portland neighbors move towards an environmentally sustainable future. 503-238-4502 www.SolarEnergyOregon.com > On May 19, 2021, at 10:12 AM, MiJo Nels wrote: > >  > I wish I could help you Nik. I'm doing everything I can to keep the hot water flowing in San Diego for all the legacy Jimmy Carter systems out there (in addition to the wonderful new ones). SHW IS ALIVE! and please to all my renewable brother's and sister's out there don't forget it's value.. Thermal is worth your time for so many reasons.. > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Nik Ponzio, Building Energy > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2021 9:14:54 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SHW? > > Anyone on here still doing solar hot water? We have an orphaned system in Rutland County, Vermont that needs service. Referrals appreciated. > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james at abundantsolar.com Thu May 20 12:52:06 2021 From: james at abundantsolar.com (James Reismiller) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 16:52:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid overvoltage and undervoltage issues on SMA install Message-ID: Hi Folks, I'm wondering if anybody has ideas on what could be causing grid over/undervoltage errors on an install we did about a year ago that now has these issues. The site is a 24 kW DC ground mount array with (3) SMA SB7.0-1SP-US-40 inverters. I've checked and done the following: 1. Measured voltage min/max at inverter terminals and AC combiner. Min - 228VAC (with no inverter output) Max - 269 VAC (when inverter trying to connect)! 2. Had utility check service and transformer with load meter (with no PV running). No issues found and utility engineer stated he thinks it's on our side. 3. Checked all AC connections including neutral (seemed like neutral issue) from inverters back to supply-side tap (fused disco). 4. Changed SMA upper voltage window in grid guard settings to 272V max and 264V reconnection. This helped for a while but now is faulting again. Have any of you ran into this issue and how did you solve it? Or what's the next thing to check? Thanks in advance! Be Well, James Reismiller He/Him/His NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(r) Abundant Solar 541-231-8072 xt. 3 CCB#175919 [cid:image002.png at 01D74D5D.CA065970] www.abundantsolar.com "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 5025 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From solarworks at gmail.com Thu May 20 12:57:44 2021 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 09:57:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid overvoltage and undervoltage issues on SMA install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey James, Line 1 and Line 2 switched in the inverter combiner panel from any of the inverters? ( line 1 connected to line 2 of inverter 2 or 3 or vice versa)? Good luck! Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa Oregon LRT#25 Oregon Solarworks LLC www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-299-0402 On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:52 AM James Reismiller wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I’m wondering if anybody has ideas on what could be causing grid > over/undervoltage errors on an install we did about a year ago that now has > these issues. The site is a 24 kW DC ground mount array with (3) SMA > SB7.0-1SP-US-40 inverters. I’ve checked and done the following: > > 1. Measured voltage min/max at inverter terminals and AC combiner. Min > – 228VAC (with no inverter output) Max - 269 VAC (when inverter trying to > connect)! > 2. Had utility check service and transformer with load meter (with no > PV running). No issues found and utility engineer stated he thinks it’s on > our side. > 3. Checked all AC connections including neutral (seemed like neutral > issue) from inverters back to supply-side tap (fused disco). > 4. Changed SMA upper voltage window in grid guard settings to 272V max > and 264V reconnection. This helped for a while but now is faulting again. > > > > Have any of you ran into this issue and how did you solve it? Or what’s > the next thing to check? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Be Well, > > James Reismiller > > He/Him/His > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > > Abundant Solar > > 541-231-8072 xt. 3 > > CCB#175919 > > www.abundantsolar.com > > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > > > ~William McDonough > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 5025 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Thu May 20 12:26:03 2021 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:26:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB VFX3524M vs regular VFX Message-ID: <003201d74d94$d462eaf0$7d28c0d0$@gmail.com> I'm going to be upgrading on old dual inverter OutBack FX 2524 system to dual VFX3524 inverters and would prefer to not use the new R series as I have heard about problems with them. I have located only one reconditioned VFX3524 so far but I see that there are VFX3524M Marine version's available. I have no experience with the Marine version. Can the Marine model work in an off grid home? I see in the spec sheet that the VFX3524M has a listed AC Input Current Max of 30A while the regular VFX3524 is listed at 60A. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu May 20 12:34:30 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:34:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SHW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We install pv and SHW. It is now about 75% 25% respectively. Actually just commissioned a two collector DB system. After 20 years, it was my first DB.  It is working great as of this late morning. I'd like to look into online monitoring of these.  We have too many customers that are not here enough and overheating the glycol. They swore that they would be here year round and we did not put in a thermal dump. Now we do on almost every system. There is good product quality out there.  Chris On 5/19/2021 1:11 PM, MiJo Nels wrote: > I wish I could help you Nik. I'm doing everything I can to keep the > hot water flowing in San Diego for all the legacy Jimmy Carter systems > out there (in addition to the wonderful new ones). SHW IS ALIVE! and > please to all my renewable brother's and sister's out there don't > forget it's value.. Thermal is worth your time for so many reasons.. > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Nik Ponzio, Building Energy > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 19, 2021 9:14:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SHW? > Anyone on here still doing solar hot water? We have an orphaned system > in Rutland County, Vermont that needs service. Referrals appreciated. > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bchurchill at energy-1.net Thu May 20 12:57:44 2021 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 16:57:44 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid overvoltage and undervoltage issues on SMA install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You’ll need to either measure or calculate impedance from the inverters up to and ideally including the utility transformer. The most likely culprit are one or both are undersized. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of James Reismiller Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2021 10:52:06 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid overvoltage and undervoltage issues on SMA install Hi Folks, I’m wondering if anybody has ideas on what could be causing grid over/undervoltage errors on an install we did about a year ago that now has these issues. The site is a 24 kW DC ground mount array with (3) SMA SB7.0-1SP-US-40 inverters. I’ve checked and done the following: 1. Measured voltage min/max at inverter terminals and AC combiner. Min – 228VAC (with no inverter output) Max - 269 VAC (when inverter trying to connect)! 2. Had utility check service and transformer with load meter (with no PV running). No issues found and utility engineer stated he thinks it’s on our side. 3. Checked all AC connections including neutral (seemed like neutral issue) from inverters back to supply-side tap (fused disco). 4. Changed SMA upper voltage window in grid guard settings to 272V max and 264V reconnection. This helped for a while but now is faulting again. Have any of you ran into this issue and how did you solve it? Or what’s the next thing to check? Thanks in advance! Be Well, James Reismiller He/Him/His NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® Abundant Solar 541-231-8072 xt. 3 CCB#175919 [cid:image002.png at 01D74D5D.CA065970] www.abundantsolar.com "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" ~William McDonough -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 5025 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu May 20 13:19:21 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 13:19:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB VFX3524M vs regular VFX In-Reply-To: <003201d74d94$d462eaf0$7d28c0d0$@gmail.com> References: <003201d74d94$d462eaf0$7d28c0d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b3acc90-91c1-766c-566e-fda5ceeb841e@solarray.com> Honestly we see pretty steady failures of the old VFX series too.  5 to 10 years, then rebuilds. The rebuild boards do not seem to be as robust either, we just had one fail after a little over a year.  The failure rate definitely seems to correspond to grid tie systems with either large arrays or large loads in the backup. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/20/21 12:26 PM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: > > I’m going to be upgrading on old dual inverter OutBack FX 2524 system > to dual VFX3524 inverters and would prefer to not use the new R series > as I have heard about problems with them. > > I have located only one reconditioned VFX3524 so far but I see that > there are VFX3524M Marine version’s available. I have no experience > with the Marine version. Can the Marine model work in an off grid home? > > I see in the spec sheet that the VFX3524M has a listed AC Input > Current Max of 30A while the regular VFX3524 is listed at 60A. > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu May 20 13:25:30 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 10:25:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid overvoltage and undervoltage issues on SMA install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Looks like the i verter is doing what it should 269 is out of range, what is the at meter voltage, libe loss or very high output voltage, 41 volts increase looks like resistance issues. More info would help, distance, wire size etc. Jerry Jerry On Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:52 AM James Reismiller wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I’m wondering if anybody has ideas on what could be causing grid > over/undervoltage errors on an install we did about a year ago that now has > these issues. The site is a 24 kW DC ground mount array with (3) SMA > SB7.0-1SP-US-40 inverters. I’ve checked and done the following: > > 1. Measured voltage min/max at inverter terminals and AC combiner. Min > – 228VAC (with no inverter output) Max - 269 VAC (when inverter trying to > connect)! > 2. Had utility check service and transformer with load meter (with no > PV running). No issues found and utility engineer stated he thinks it’s on > our side. > 3. Checked all AC connections including neutral (seemed like neutral > issue) from inverters back to supply-side tap (fused disco). > 4. Changed SMA upper voltage window in grid guard settings to 272V max > and 264V reconnection. This helped for a while but now is faulting again. > > > > Have any of you ran into this issue and how did you solve it? Or what’s > the next thing to check? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Be Well, > > James Reismiller > > He/Him/His > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® > > Abundant Solar > > 541-231-8072 xt. 3 > > CCB#175919 > > www.abundantsolar.com > > > > > "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion > to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor > safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could > ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" > > > > ~William McDonough > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 5025 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 5025 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu May 20 15:23:16 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 12:23:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid overvoltage and undervoltage issues on SMA install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James - Is there a long run between the inverters and the point of interconnection? As others have pointed out, it appears that the symptoms you describe are voltage drop related. If the wire size is too small it will result in voltage at the inverters going up when current starts to flow. The inverters match the voltage at the utility point of connection. If, for example, the voltage at the main service panel is 240 volts and you have a 10% voltage drop due to undersized wires, you'd see 240 x 1.10 = 264 v at the inverters. Sometimes this issue is compounded if the utility voltage is a little on the high side, which can happen at the end of the distribution lines. There could be other explanations as well. Best, August On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:25 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Looks like the i verter is doing what it should 269 is out of range, what > is the at meter voltage, libe loss or very high output voltage, 41 volts > increase looks like resistance issues. More info would help, distance, wire > size etc. > Jerry > Jerry > > > On Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:52 AM James Reismiller > wrote: > >> Hi Folks, >> >> I’m wondering if anybody has ideas on what could be causing grid >> over/undervoltage errors on an install we did about a year ago that now has >> these issues. The site is a 24 kW DC ground mount array with (3) SMA >> SB7.0-1SP-US-40 inverters. I’ve checked and done the following: >> >> 1. Measured voltage min/max at inverter terminals and AC combiner. >> Min – 228VAC (with no inverter output) Max - 269 VAC (when inverter trying >> to connect)! >> 2. Had utility check service and transformer with load meter (with no >> PV running). No issues found and utility engineer stated he thinks it’s on >> our side. >> 3. Checked all AC connections including neutral (seemed like neutral >> issue) from inverters back to supply-side tap (fused disco). >> 4. Changed SMA upper voltage window in grid guard settings to 272V >> max and 264V reconnection. This helped for a while but now is faulting >> again. >> >> >> >> Have any of you ran into this issue and how did you solve it? Or what’s >> the next thing to check? >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> >> >> Be Well, >> >> James Reismiller >> >> He/Him/His >> >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >> >> Abundant Solar >> >> 541-231-8072 xt. 3 >> >> CCB#175919 >> >> www.abundantsolar.com >> >> >> >> >> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer >> fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion >> reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we >> could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" >> >> >> >> ~William McDonough >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Fri May 21 09:32:55 2021 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 09:32:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SHW? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, I just saw Heliodyne just came out with a new controller that includes remote monitoring. I don't know anything about it but you may want to check it out. Thanks, Will On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:12 PM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > We install pv and SHW. It is now about 75% 25% respectively. Actually just > commissioned a two collector DB system. After 20 years, it was my first > DB. It is working great as of this late morning. I'd like to look into > online monitoring of these. We have too many customers that are not here > enough and overheating the glycol. They swore that they would be here year > round and we did not put in a thermal dump. Now we do on almost every > system. There is good product quality out there. Chris > On 5/19/2021 1:11 PM, MiJo Nels wrote: > > I wish I could help you Nik. I'm doing everything I can to keep the hot > water flowing in San Diego for all the legacy Jimmy Carter systems out > there (in addition to the wonderful new ones). SHW IS ALIVE! and please to > all my renewable brother's and sister's out there don't forget it's value.. > Thermal is worth your time for so many reasons.. > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Nik Ponzio, > Building Energy > > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 19, 2021 9:14:54 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SHW? > > Anyone on here still doing solar hot water? We have an orphaned system in > Rutland County, Vermont that needs service. Referrals appreciated. > > > -- > Nik Ponzio > Building Energy > http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Will White* Curriculum Developer e: will at solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From markf at berkeleysolar.com Fri May 21 11:44:04 2021 From: markf at berkeleysolar.com (Mark Frye) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 08:44:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage Message-ID: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> Folks, If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage. But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze and be damaged anyway? Thanks, Mark Frye From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 21 12:07:01 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 09:07:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: I doubt you will do any good with trickle charging at cold temps. LFP is too efficient and there is litlle self heating, so this will not work. Probably need to use LA or roll the dice. An expensive mistake if you lose. Even heating pads need a fossile fuel source in cold country with LFP powering a home. A duct from a heated home will also work but you need to keep that home warm and power the duct fan. Not fun if you have to leave the home for an emergency. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 21 May 2021 08:44:04 -0700, Mark Frye wrote: > Folks, > > If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I can > get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage. > > But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle > charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? > > Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze and > be damaged anyway? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 21 12:12:39 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (Larry) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 09:12:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery that does not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may damage it quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution. There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries above freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the charger if the battery is unsafe to charge. Larry Crutcher > On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye wrote: > > Folks, > > If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage. > > But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? > > Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze and be damaged anyway? > > Thanks, > > Mark Frye > > > _______________________________________ From ray at solarray.com Fri May 21 12:24:11 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 12:24:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> Message-ID: <91e9860c-4e74-efae-cf2a-9cbeec626198@solarray.com> This is the only company I know of that has dealt with the low temperature charging issue.  Its a great product, and the blue tooth monitoring is an excellent feature too.  This is what the other Li+ batteries should be doing.  The big down side is they are currently limited to 12v.  Wish they made a 48v pack. https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/21/21 12:12 PM, Larry wrote: > My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery that does not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. > > Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may damage it quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution. > > There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries above freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the charger if the battery is unsafe to charge. > > Larry Crutcher > > >> On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage. >> >> But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? >> >> Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze and be damaged anyway? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark Frye >> >> >> _______________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Fri May 21 12:41:48 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 12:41:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: References: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> <022d01d74c10$a068cf10$e13a6d30$@glbcc.com> Message-ID: <024901d74e60$3286a1f0$9793e5d0$@glbcc.com> IEEE standards are not UL standards, and some of the mentioned improvements in functionality are NEC requirements, not UL. Just trying to clarify. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 7:04 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U "IEEE 1547-1" certification is required at least in the New England ISO document which our utilities abide by. IEEE 1547 does not qualify. My local utility denied my approval for installation last year of a old SMA2500U inverter for this reason. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/18/2021 2:07:28 PM, Glenn Burt > wrote: Hi Kirk, Can you elaborate on which UL standards the older SB units don’t comply with? -Glenn From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:42 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. If its a new installation, a savvy utility / AHJ will catch this. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller > wrote: Jay: Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U Does anyone know if you can convert a SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? Without using a boost transformer. Thx Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Fri May 21 15:29:44 2021 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 14:29:44 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG chem resu10h gen2 Message-ID: I have installed a number of battery ready systems using StorEdge inverters without the battery. I now am left hanging with no gen 2 batteries available and no compatibility between gen 3 prime batteries and the StorEdge. Not happy. Anyone have a LG gen 2 on the shelf (a very strong shelf). Contact me off list if so. Thanks, Kris 7156534295 solman at legacysolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri May 21 15:33:16 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 12:33:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: <<91e9860c-4e74-efae-cf2a-9cbeec626198@solarray.com>> References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> <91e9860c-4e74-efae-cf2a-9cbeec626198@solarray.com> Message-ID: I can think of a few other things for the wish list! l Closed loop charging with multiple sources. Robust BMS design to not be a new source of power failures Offgrid. Spare BMS for sale with product that is servicable. Gets Soc and temp into Insight and Optics A company that will be there when I need them. Too many players in the battery game right now that I do not know of! Only a few that do most all of these for me. Friday ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:24:11 -0400, Ray wrote: > This is the only company I know of that has dealt with the low > temperature charging issue.  Its a great product, and the blue tooth > monitoring is an excellent feature too.  This is what the other Li+ > batteries should be doing.  The big down side is they are currently > limited to 12v.  Wish they made a 48v pack. > > https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/21/21 12:12 PM, Larry wrote: >> My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery that >> does not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. >> >> Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may >> damage it quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution. >> >> There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries >> above freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the >> charger if the battery is unsafe to charge. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> >> >>> On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> >>> If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I >>> can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage. >>> >>> But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle >>> charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? >>> >>> Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze >>> and be damaged anyway? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat May 22 10:14:05 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 10:14:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U In-Reply-To: References: <25B9FDB9-3B7B-47AF-A646-0F5342AB539A@gmail.com> <31dc21892b472f2d1bd6b5d004c60b5a@mail.gmail.com> <022d01d74c10$a068cf10$e13a6d30$@glbcc.com> <5b889687635eff305c0de0430ae8f96e@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <48607a51ef3e6852c7d18edc252f6a3b@redwoodalliance.org> Make sure the old modules are resistant to Potential Induced Degradation (PID). The new transformerless inverters can induce PID on non PID resistant modules. This issue surfaced with the installation of inverters that did not solidly ground either conductor. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-05-18 21:22, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > I would also be surprised if the old 2500 would last very long. > Better off with a SB5.0-41 and if you need RSD then add that in also. > > On Tue, May 18, 2021, 12:15 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Probably if it is old it does not have these recent Certifications and UL requirements. Just gave these to my local AHJ. > > IEEE 1547, UL 1741-SA, Rule 21, Rule 14H, PREPA, and CSA 107.1 > > Product Certification History Project Date Description 80049402 2020-09-18 Update to report 70194014 to meet grid support function according to CA Rule 21 for 120Vac output configuration. 80036281 2020-03-15 Update report 70194014 to include UL1741 CRD SA17/18 UL 1741(California Rule 21 Phase 3 Function 2 and Function 3) for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 80020062 2019-10-30 Update report 70194014 to include firmware upgrade for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70220117 2019-03-27 Update Report 70194014 to include minor firmware update for Model XW Pro 6848 NA. 70212688 2019-03-04 Update Report 70194014 to Include Volt-Watt and revised Freq-Watt grid tie requirements as per UL1741 Supplement SA for Model XW Pro 6848 NA (FGA 865-6848-21). > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 18 May 2021 14:07:08 -0400, "Glenn Burt" wrote: > > Hi Kirk, > > Can you elaborate on which UL standards the older SB units don't comply with? > > -Glenn > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 6:42 AM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U > > These older Sunnyboys do not comply with latest UL standards regardless. If its a new installation, a savvy utility / AHJ will catch this. > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > > _Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!_ > > www.vermont.solar [1] > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > On 5/17/2021 3:53:26 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Jay: > > Some years ago I mis-ordered 5 SB2500s for 208 three phase and it turned > out the system was 240 VAC three phase (open delta). I had to return the > inverters to the factory to be converted and I had to rewire all of the > arrays. So no, I don't think this can be done in the field. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com [2] > CA Lic. 773985 > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:44 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB 2500U > > Does anyone know if you can convert a > SMA SB2500U ( old red inverter) from 208 to 240vac? > > Without using a boost transformer. > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz power. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0 [2] http://www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat May 22 09:28:14 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 09:28:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Astropower AP-120 Message-ID: Looking for for one of these. Please contact off list if you've got one available. Thanks. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lyons at zapotecenergy.com Mon May 24 09:19:37 2021 From: lyons at zapotecenergy.com (Paul Lyons) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 13:19:37 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] My Kingdom for an ET Solar ET-P660230 230Wp module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear RE-Wrenches - King Richard the Third had an otherwise good life because he did not have to track down a very specific PV module – just a new horse. Do any of you know where I can find an ET Solar ET-P660230 230Wp module? Thank you, Paul xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Paul Lyons, P.E. Zapotec Energy Inc. 26 Glenwood Ave Cambridge, MA 02139-4708 Tel: 617-547-5900 Fax: 617-547-5901 Mobile: 617-285-0634 Email: Lyons at ZapotecEnergy.com Web: www.ZapotecEnergy.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Mon May 24 16:25:04 2021 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 10:25:04 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG chem resu10h gen2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check with CED Green tech, they had a large quantity last I checked. Mahalo, Roland Shackelford NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #091209-162 President Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. | www.renewablenergy.com | Mobile: 808-938-9239 | Office: 808-775-7410 | Fax: 808-775-7756 *Privileged And Confidential Communication. This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are protected by the Electronic Privacy Act (18 USC ?? 2510-2521), (b) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited. On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 9:30 AM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > I have installed a number of battery ready systems using StorEdge > inverters without the battery. I now am left hanging with no gen 2 > batteries available and no compatibility between gen 3 prime batteries and > the StorEdge. Not happy. > > Anyone have a LG gen 2 on the shelf (a very strong shelf). Contact me off > list if so. > > Thanks, > Kris > 7156534295 > solman at legacysolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon May 24 18:40:32 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 18:40:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark Inverter 120/240V Message-ID: In practice, what are people using to combine Sol-Ark 12Ks on the AC input and output side in a multiple inverter parallel configuration? I'm trying to find a solution that is physically small and ideally low cost. Also, Sol-Ark recommends a transfer switch in a dual inverter setup. Given the long lead times on transfer switches these days and added cost of load management features and generator start features, can anyone recommend a no frills automatic xfer switch that is readily available? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue May 25 06:32:33 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 06:32:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators Message-ID: Has anyone tried to AC couple these microinverters with a generator output to reduce fuel consumption? They claim it can be done with their "volt-watt" mode. I'm skeptical but interested nonetheless. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP PVIP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 25 10:02:15 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 07:02:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ded2c94a432152045d6d3a7e55ccbd@127.0.0.1> Explain more please. We try to never use generators out this way, but with fire season I am always interested for some of my clients. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 25 May 2021 06:32:33 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Has anyone tried to AC couple these microinverters with a generator output to reduce fuel consumption? They claim it can be done with their "volt-watt" mode. I'm skeptical but interested nonetheless. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP PVIP Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue May 25 10:59:59 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:59:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: <51ded2c94a432152045d6d3a7e55ccbd@127.0.0.1> References: <51ded2c94a432152045d6d3a7e55ccbd@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Go to https://www.chiliconpower.com/support-materials And check out the AC Coupling guide. They say clearly that you can do this with their product. That took me by surprise. Jason On Tue, May 25, 2021, 10:02 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Explain more please. We try to never use generators out this way, but with > fire season I am always interested for some of my clients. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 25 May 2021 06:32:33 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > Has anyone tried to AC couple these microinverters with a generator output > to reduce fuel consumption? They claim it can be done with their > "volt-watt" mode. I'm skeptical but interested nonetheless. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP PVIP > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue May 25 11:22:51 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 08:22:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can smell smoke from here On Tue, May 25, 2021, 6:48 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Has anyone tried to AC couple these microinverters with a generator output > to reduce fuel consumption? They claim it can be done with their > "volt-watt" mode. I'm skeptical but interested nonetheless. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > NABCEP PVIP > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 25 11:33:20 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 08:33:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53db12a7f253cd39bd6f76ca80e0972f@127.0.0.1> In case you are near me and not kidding Jerry, I see smoke alot of it! For others during fire season this is the tool I use for finding the fire source. Much faster than anything else I have tried. The upper right of the display shows a red area that is the fire. https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=37.62021,-119.98856&z=10&b=mbt">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 25 May 2021 08:22:51 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: I can smell smoke from here On Tue, May 25, 2021, 6:48 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: Has anyone tried to AC couple these microinverters with a generator output to reduce fuel consumption? They claim it can be done with their "volt-watt" mode. I'm skeptical but interested nonetheless. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP PVIP _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [4] http://re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Tue May 25 11:50:24 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 08:50:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wellpump VS Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I need some actual off-grid experience some of you wrenches may have had with with a (or 2) Radian(s) starting and running a 3HP, 230Volt, single phase, 3-wire submersible well pump.  It would be starting against a 50-100 foot static level in the well and a pressure in the pressure tank of 35psi.             Yesterday I clamped a 2 HP well pump and during start up got an inrush current on a Fluke of 38 amps (both legs), which was against 200 feet of water column and 40psi in the tank. Unfortunately, I need a 3HP pump for this install.  I've read specs on all sorts of data sheets, running amps, max amps,locked rotor amps, but I need  real world knowledge.  What do we know? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From william at millersolar.com Tue May 25 11:36:01 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 08:36:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex GT250 repair Message-ID: <2DBDBE6B-A820-407E-AD45-E1B8C63ABD4A@millersolar.com> Friends: I am working on a Xantrex GT250 negative ground that is in need of repair. I have been having some difficulty navigating the Schnieder corporate system. Do any of you have experience with this inverter that you might be willing to share with me? We could chat or correspond outside of this forum. I would be most grateful. William Miller www.millersolar.com From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue May 25 12:28:54 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 09:28:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: <53db12a7f253cd39bd6f76ca80e0972f@127.0.0.1> References: <53db12a7f253cd39bd6f76ca80e0972f@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Not kidding, but not in reference of wildfires either. Installing inverters directly connected to the gennys is in the past lead to smoke. Jerry On Tue, May 25, 2021, 8:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > In case you are near me and not kidding Jerry, I see smoke alot of it! > For others during fire season this is the tool I use for finding the fire > source. Much faster than anything else I have tried. The upper right of the > display shows a red area that is the fire. > > https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=37.62021,-119.98856&z=10&b=mbt&a=modis_vp%2Cgoesfire > > Sorry Jason! I will look at your link. > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 25 May 2021 08:22:51 -0700, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > I can smell smoke from here > > > On Tue, May 25, 2021, 6:48 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> >> Has anyone tried to AC couple these microinverters with a generator >> output to reduce fuel consumption? They claim it can be done with their >> "volt-watt" mode. I'm skeptical but interested nonetheless. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP PVIP >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Tue May 25 12:12:48 2021 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:12:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wellpump VS Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c901d75180$ced7ec80$6c87c580$@OasisMontana.com> Well, here at the Oasis we have a battery-based grid-tie system. My entire home/office runs through the inverter, it's a single Radian, older 8048 that was installed around 2014. In 2016 I had to have a new well drilled (our water table's dropping here in the valley), and had to go from 186 ft. to 289 ft. deep. I now have a 3 HP Goulds, with soft-start, in place and it has worked flawlessly. It's got a Franklin motor, Goulds pump end and Aquavar Solo controller (Part nos. S09970, 18GS30, and 3AS30 respectively). I run that pump about 3 days a week in the summer, as we have over 3500 ft. of drip and a big garden. And plenty of sun. It keeps my pressure tank constantly between 58 and 61PSI (I believe that's adjustable). I love the Goulds product line; my first 1.5HP 240VAC pump lasted 25 years; we have a little sand in our good water here so the ability to handle abrasives is important. There's my 2 cents worth. Good luck! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 9:50 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wellpump VS Radian I need some actual off-grid experience some of you wrenches may have had with with a (or 2) Radian(s) starting and running a 3HP, 230Volt, single phase, 3-wire submersible well pump. It would be starting against a 50-100 foot static level in the well and a pressure in the pressure tank of 35psi. Yesterday I clamped a 2 HP well pump and during start up got an inrush current on a Fluke of 38 amps (both legs), which was against 200 feet of water column and 40psi in the tank. Unfortunately, I need a 3HP pump for this install. I've read specs on all sorts of data sheets, running amps, max amps,locked rotor amps, but I need real world knowledge. What do we know? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 25 13:24:07 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:24:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex GT250 repair In-Reply-To: <2DBDBE6B-A820-407E-AD45-E1B8C63ABD4A@millersolar.com> References: <2DBDBE6B-A820-407E-AD45-E1B8C63ABD4A@millersolar.com> Message-ID: These were discontinued at least 5 years back. The links may help you! To find this you would go to the Schneider solar website, go to support, selct discontinued products. STAY AWAY FROM THE CORPORATE WEBSITE!!! It will not help you. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/netsuite/ Below is my search for the GT250 https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA304008/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 25 May 2021 08:36:01 -0700, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I am working on a Xantrex GT250 negative ground that is in need of repair. > I have been having some difficulty navigating the Schnieder corporate > system. Do any of you have experience with this inverter that you might be > willing to share with me? We could chat or correspond outside of this > forum. I would be most grateful. > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue May 25 13:31:36 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:31:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Wellpump VS Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e825d2b6ff071bcad985cded7576f76@127.0.0.1> My real world input is I use the XW for anything hard to start. XW is a single 6.8KW low frequency design that can supply 12KW for a minute. Radian is (2) 4KW inverters and I have found that XW is the best for this. Stacking often is not the answer for difficult loads. My experience only with deep wells offgrid! I use Radian also but not for something like this! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 25 May 2021 08:50:24 -0700, frenergy wrote: > I need some actual off-grid experience some of you wrenches may have had > with with a (or 2) Radian(s) starting and running a 3HP, 230Volt, single > phase, 3-wire submersible well pump.  It would be starting against a > 50-100 foot static level in the well and a pressure in the pressure tank > of 35psi. > >             Yesterday I clamped a 2 HP well pump and during start up > got an inrush current on a Fluke of 38 amps (both legs), which was > against 200 feet of water column and 40psi in the tank. Unfortunately, I > need a 3HP pump for this install.  I've read specs on all sorts of data > sheets, running amps, max amps,locked rotor amps, but I need  real world > knowledge.  What do we know? > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue May 25 19:16:40 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 16:16:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Installing PV/inverters to a generator is a common practice. One must make sure you don’t ever have more PV/inverter than load to prevent either generator damage or shut down. I worked on a big project that did actually shut the generator down, it tried to run backwards as the PV power exceeded the load. Didn’t damage the generator, 125kw. The main reason is to reduce fuel burn, but how how it is reduced has a number of variables: age, fuel type, size, where in the power band it’s operating , and if a larger newer diesel ( they have a very different fuel burn curve than older ones are which works very well with solar). SMA and others have full packages that communicate with the generator for really large systems like mines etc. Not knowing the size/type of the PV/generator and the variables, hard to say if there would be much fuel savings. Jay > On May 25, 2021, at 9:29 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Not kidding, but not in reference of wildfires either. Installing inverters directly connected to the gennys is in the past lead to smoke. > Jerry > >> On Tue, May 25, 2021, 8:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: >> In case you are near me and not kidding Jerry, I see smoke alot of it! For others during fire season this is the tool I use for finding the fire source. Much faster than anything else I have tried. The upper right of the display shows a red area that is the fire. >> >> https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=37.62021,-119.98856&z=10&b=mbt&a=modis_vp%2Cgoesfire >> >> Sorry Jason! I will look at your link. >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >>> On Tue, 25 May 2021 08:22:51 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>> I can smell smoke from here >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, May 25, 2021, 6:48 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> >>>> Has anyone tried to AC couple these microinverters with a generator output to reduce fuel consumption? They claim it can be done with their "volt-watt" mode. I'm skeptical but interested nonetheless. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP PVIP >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed May 26 08:58:55 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 12:58:55 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pressure pump and Magnum 4448 causing washer shutdown Message-ID: Looking for recommendations on a solution for the following. Customer is doing laundry and when his new pressure pump comes on, it causes the normal power flicker, thus the washing machine shuts down. He runs a small generator to power the washing machine with no problems. The new pump is pulling from a cistern and is a 115V unit. Not sure of the pressure tank size or pump hp rating. •ME 4448 PAE with one string of ~500 AH battery cap. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed May 26 10:19:41 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 09:19:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dual Sol-Ark Inverter 120/240V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I’ve stacked multiple Radians and I usually use Square D Homeline panels like a HOM1224L125PGCVP. You can easily stack three inverters on the left side bus and local loads on the right side bus. It’s nice to power outlets from all three panels (grid, inverter, generator). If you are super tight on space, the HOM612L100RB can work. Just no main breaker. SQD makes a QO version that has 8/16 and you could incorporate a main/back feed and have room for a couple local loads. I’m currently designing my first SolArk that happens to be a double stack. I’m using the homeline panels here as well. The inverters and electrical panel mount on a wall above an 8” gutter. The downside is that this method can consume a lot of wall space. Another method that I have used is to buy a Schnieder Xantrex PDP and use it as the load center. It is expensive! But saves a lot of space when using a Radian with Charge Controllers, etc. (and of course XW stuff). But, I think it is redundant for Sol-Ark. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On May 24, 2021, at 6:08 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > In practice, what are people using to combine Sol-Ark 12Ks on the AC input and output side in a multiple inverter parallel configuration? I'm trying to find a solution that is physically small and ideally low cost. > > Also, Sol-Ark recommends a transfer switch in a dual inverter setup. Given the long lead times on transfer switches these days and added cost of load management features and generator start features, can anyone recommend a no frills automatic xfer switch that is readily available? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu May 27 11:26:48 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 08:26:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pacific Power utility/ Oregon Message-ID: <96BA7DA3-6F89-4386-8615-9A9FDFEF2681@gmail.com> I’m trying to help a friend of a friend understand his electric bill. He’s got a intertie and is in pacific power utility but it’s in far north California. If anyone has any info pls contact me offsite Thx Jay From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu May 27 18:22:43 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 18:22:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX3648 Message-ID: <90b7e52441d64b9ac2f537afb6c011d9@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know where an Outback VFX 3648 inverter might be purchased? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From rick at solshineenergy.com Thu May 27 19:38:34 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 19:38:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX3648 In-Reply-To: <90b7e52441d64b9ac2f537afb6c011d9@redwoodalliance.org> References: <90b7e52441d64b9ac2f537afb6c011d9@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, Check on eBay. They have a bunch. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On May 27, 2021, at 6:23 PM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Outback VFX 3648 From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu May 27 18:24:53 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 12:24:53 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX3648 In-Reply-To: <90b7e52441d64b9ac2f537afb6c011d9@redwoodalliance.org> References: <90b7e52441d64b9ac2f537afb6c011d9@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <016501d75347$1f025930$5d070b90$@com> A number listed on eBay. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2021 12:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX3648 Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know where an Outback VFX 3648 inverter might be purchased? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From Bryan at pv-cables.com Thu May 27 20:24:42 2021 From: Bryan at pv-cables.com (Bryan Norkunas) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 17:24:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX3648 In-Reply-To: <016501d75347$1f025930$5d070b90$@com> References: <90b7e52441d64b9ac2f537afb6c011d9@redwoodalliance.org> <016501d75347$1f025930$5d070b90$@com> Message-ID: <02a601d75357$db15d420$91417c60$@pv-cables.com> Could check with Zonna Energy, they might have stock. Bryan Norkunas PV-Cables Inc. 989 Milton Ave Ste 1D Ferndale CA 95536 (707) 923-3000 office www.pv-cables.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2021 3:25 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VFX3648 A number listed on eBay. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2021 12:23 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] VFX3648 Hello Wrenches, Does anyone know where an Outback VFX 3648 inverter might be purchased? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri May 28 12:03:00 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 09:03:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pressure pump and Magnum 4448 causing washer shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E520115-793A-47C4-A08B-F641EC9C4E6F@starlightsolar.com> Hello Jeremy, For more than a decade we have been aware of this issue wit Magnum Energy inverters. This primarily happened with the washer brand Splendide but other motors run by electronic controllers have caused the issue as well. When the washer is powered by Magnum inverters, the AC waveform becomes very distorted. You can view this on a scope as in the attached image. When you try to power other complex loads at the same time, the inverter can’t sufficiently emulate a sine wave. We found a simple solution. Install a high frequency inverter for the washer only. A 600W GoPower (made by Cotek) inverter has worked for us. They are cheap but well made with great support. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems Magnum inverter running Splendide washer, Voltage(top) and current. On May 26, 2021, at 5:58 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Looking for recommendations on a solution for the following. Customer is doing laundry and when his new pressure pump comes on, it causes the normal power flicker, thus the washing machine shuts down. He runs a small generator to power the washing machine with no problems. The new pump is pulling from a cistern and is a 115V unit. Not sure of the pressure tank size or pump hp rating. •ME 4448 PAE with one string of ~500 AH battery cap. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-05-28 at 8.55.36 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 620539 bytes Desc: not available URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Sat May 29 12:50:39 2021 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 12:50:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Rolls distributors Message-ID: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> Our old Surrette Rolls distributor, RAE Storage Battery, has been sold to another battery manufacturer and they no longer sell Surrette Rolls. I am in need of finding a new Surrette Rolls distributor here in the northeast. I will be replacing this 24V 1,300AH battery bank made up of twelve individual 2v Surrette single wall cells. The box is 11" deep x 84" long x 39" high. If I can't find direct replacement for these single wall 2v cells I may have to enlarge the battery box. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1227127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Sat May 29 13:36:16 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 13:36:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Rolls distributors In-Reply-To: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> References: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave reply to me off list. Ill need the dimensions of individual cells just to confirm and the exact flag terminal layouts. tump > On May 29, 2021, at 12:50 PM, wrote: > > Our old Surrette Rolls distributor, RAE Storage Battery, has been sold to another battery manufacturer and they no longer sell Surrette Rolls. > I am in need of finding a new Surrette Rolls distributor here in the northeast. > I will be replacing this 24V 1,300AH battery bank made up of twelve individual 2v Surrette single wall cells. The box is 11” deep x 84” long x 39” high. > If I can’t find direct replacement for these single wall 2v cells I may have to enlarge the battery box. > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sat May 29 14:01:12 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 14:01:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Rolls distributors In-Reply-To: References: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dave, I've been using Hartford Forklift Ron Ramsey, out of Maine. So far, happy with him. (207) 212-4769 rramsey at hartfordsforklift.com Stock is limited, but he can get most of what I want usually. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Sat, May 29, 2021, 1:36 PM Tump wrote: > Dave reply to me off list. Ill need the dimensions of individual cells > just to confirm and the exact flag terminal layouts. tump > > On May 29, 2021, at 12:50 PM, < > palumbo131m at gmail.com> wrote: > > Our old Surrette Rolls distributor, RAE Storage Battery, has been sold to > another battery manufacturer and they no longer sell Surrette Rolls. > I am in need of finding a new Surrette Rolls distributor here in the > northeast. > I will be replacing this 24V 1,300AH battery bank made up of twelve > individual 2v Surrette single wall cells. The box is 11” deep x 84” long x > 39” high. > If I can’t find direct replacement for these single wall 2v cells I may > have to enlarge the battery box. > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump3391 at gmail.com <3391 at gmail.com>* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat May 29 14:12:09 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 11:12:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Rolls distributors In-Reply-To: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> References: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <27ec7f5e28f6ae7f411bf464ce4585c9@127.0.0.1> The pix shows model KS25. How long did they last please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 29 May 2021 12:50:39 -0400, wrote: Our old Surrette Rolls distributor, RAE Storage Battery, has been sold to another battery manufacturer and they no longer sell Surrette Rolls. I am in need of finding a new Surrette Rolls distributor here in the northeast. I will be replacing this 24V 1,300AH battery bank made up of twelve individual 2v Surrette single wall cells. The box is 11" deep x 84" long x 39" high. If I can't find direct replacement for these single wall 2v cells I may have to enlarge the battery box. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1227127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat May 29 15:05:18 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 12:05:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Rolls distributors In-Reply-To: <27ec7f5e28f6ae7f411bf464ce4585c9@127.0.0.1> References: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> <27ec7f5e28f6ae7f411bf464ce4585c9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hey everyone, lead times on Series 5000 and 2v L16s are 6 to 10 weeks thru warehousing distribution...longer thru the smaller non stocking distribution partners. The 6v L16s and smaller batteries are in very high demand due to COVID demand spikes. If you go here. https://www.rollsbattery.com/distributors/ Key in your postal code, look for a warehouse distribution partner and generally they will be your best bet at getting them quickly. Hope this helps! On Sat, May 29, 2021, 11:12 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > The pix shows model KS25. How long did they last please? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sat, 29 May 2021 12:50:39 -0400, wrote: > > Our old Surrette Rolls distributor, RAE Storage Battery, has been sold to > another battery manufacturer and they no longer sell Surrette Rolls. > > I am in need of finding a new Surrette Rolls distributor here in the > northeast. > > I will be replacing this 24V 1,300AH battery bank made up of twelve > individual 2v Surrette single wall cells. The box is 11” deep x 84” long x > 39” high. > > If I can’t find direct replacement for these single wall 2v cells I may > have to enlarge the battery box. > > > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > [image: A picture containing indoor Description automatically generated] > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat May 29 16:24:42 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 16:24:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Rolls distributors In-Reply-To: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> References: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0006a8da-9249-9cab-93b1-1950c721fd8c@solarray.com> HUPs can be wired end to end to fit pretty close to that space. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/29/21 12:50 PM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: > > Our old Surrette Rolls distributor, RAE Storage Battery, has been sold=20 > to another battery manufacturer and they no longer sell Surrette Rolls. > > I am in need of finding a new Surrette Rolls distributor here in the=20 > northeast. > > I will be replacing this 24V 1,300AH battery bank made up of twelve=20 > individual 2v Surrette single wall cells. The box is 11=E2=80=9D deep x 8= 4=E2=80=9D=20 > long x 39=E2=80=9D high. > > If I can=E2=80=99t find direct replacement for these single wall 2v cells= I=20 > may have to enlarge the battery box. > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Sat May 29 16:04:25 2021 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 16:04:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Rolls distributors In-Reply-To: <27ec7f5e28f6ae7f411bf464ce4585c9@127.0.0.1> References: <005e01d754aa$c1aa5ca0$44ff15e0$@gmail.com> <27ec7f5e28f6ae7f411bf464ce4585c9@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <00f101d754c5$d320ed80$7962c880$@gmail.com> Dave Angelini, They are 4 years in heavy service and show two weak cells which I am equalizing now after having changed their position in the string. Hopefully they are not at the end of their service life quite yet. I am preparing for their demise though and am willing to bring in a new set and have it on a float charge with a monthly exercise load and bulk charge. This is for my own house, which is two family at this point, and I want to have the next battery set on hand when needed. Dave Palumbo From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2021 2:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette Rolls distributors The pix shows model KS25. How long did they last please? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 29 May 2021 12:50:39 -0400, > wrote: Our old Surrette Rolls distributor, RAE Storage Battery, has been sold to another battery manufacturer and they no longer sell Surrette Rolls. I am in need of finding a new Surrette Rolls distributor here in the northeast. I will be replacing this 24V 1,300AH battery bank made up of twelve individual 2v Surrette single wall cells. The box is 11” deep x 84” long x 39” high. If I can’t find direct replacement for these single wall 2v cells I may have to enlarge the battery box. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1227127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jun 1 06:51:33 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2021 06:51:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm wondering why this isn't more common and better documented. We are getting a lot of requests for solar to reduce generator fuel usage with PV in smaller residential settings. I just came across this solution from Fronius: https://www.fronius.com/en/solar-energy/installers-partners/products-solutions/offgrid-backup/pv-genset-saving-fuels-with-photovoltaics. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 8:24 PM Jay wrote: > Installing PV/inverters to a generator is a common practice. > One must make sure you don’t ever have more PV/inverter than load to > prevent either generator damage or shut down. > > I worked on a big project that did actually shut the generator down, it > tried to run backwards as the PV power exceeded the load. Didn’t damage the > generator, 125kw. > > The main reason is to reduce fuel burn, but how how it is reduced has a > number of variables: age, fuel type, size, where in the power band it’s > operating , and if a larger newer diesel ( they have a very different fuel > burn curve than older ones are which works very well with solar). > > SMA and others have full packages that communicate with the generator for > really large systems like mines etc. > > Not knowing the size/type of the PV/generator and the variables, hard to > say if there would be much fuel savings. > > Jay > > > > On May 25, 2021, at 9:29 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  > Not kidding, but not in reference of wildfires either. Installing > inverters directly connected to the gennys is in the past lead to smoke. > Jerry > > On Tue, May 25, 2021, 8:33 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> In case you are near me and not kidding Jerry, I see smoke alot of it! >> For others during fire season this is the tool I use for finding the fire >> source. Much faster than anything else I have tried. The upper right of the >> display shows a red area that is the fire. >> >> https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=37.62021,-119.98856&z=10&b=mbt&a=modis_vp%2Cgoesfire >> >> Sorry Jason! I will look at your link. >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 25 May 2021 08:22:51 -0700, Jerry Shafer < >> jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I can smell smoke from here >> >> >> On Tue, May 25, 2021, 6:48 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> Has anyone tried to AC couple these microinverters with a generator >>> output to reduce fuel consumption? They claim it can be done with their >>> "volt-watt" mode. I'm skeptical but interested nonetheless. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> NABCEP PVIP >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Jun 2 15:52:12 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 12:52:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As Jay says SMA has the Fuel Save Controller for large PV to Diesel hybrid systems - with or without batteries. https://www.sma.de/en/industrial-systems/fuel-save-solution-for-hybrid-systems.html So no reason it can't be done on a smaller scale. Best, Jeff Village Power Design > Jason Szumlanski > June 1, 2021 at 3:51 AM > I'm wondering why this isn't more common and better documented. We are > getting a lot of requests for solar to reduce generator fuel usage > with PV in smaller residential settings. > > I just came across this solution from Fronius: > https://www.fronius.com/en/solar-energy/installers-partners/products-solutions/offgrid-backup/pv-genset-saving-fuels-with-photovoltaics. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > * > > > * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay > May 25, 2021 at 4:16 PM > Installing PV/inverters to a generator is a common practice. > One must make sure you don’t ever have more PV/inverter than load to > prevent either generator damage or shut down. > > I worked on a big project that did actually shut the generator down, > it tried to run backwards as the PV power exceeded the load. Didn’t > damage the generator, 125kw. > > The main reason is to reduce fuel burn, but how how it is reduced has > a number of variables:  age, fuel type, size, where in the power band > it’s operating , and if a larger newer diesel ( they have a very > different fuel burn curve than older ones are which works very well > with solar). > > SMA and others have full packages that communicate with the generator > for really large systems like mines etc. > > Not knowing the size/type of the PV/generator and the variables, hard > to say if there would be much fuel savings. > > Jay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jerry Shafer > May 25, 2021 at 9:28 AM > Not kidding, but not in reference of wildfires either. Installing > inverters directly connected to the gennys is in the past lead to smoke. > Jerry > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 2 16:58:00 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 16:58:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe it's time for a change of thinking in the resi market. People who consider PV and can't have it used for backup get disenfranchised quickly. On Wed, Jun 2, 2021, 3:52 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: > As Jay says SMA has the Fuel Save Controller for large PV to Diesel hybrid > systems - with or without batteries. > > > https://www.sma.de/en/industrial-systems/fuel-save-solution-for-hybrid-systems.html > > So no reason it can't be done on a smaller scale. > > Best, > > Jeff > Village Power Design > > Jason Szumlanski > June 1, 2021 at 3:51 AM > I'm wondering why this isn't more common and better documented. We are > getting a lot of requests for solar to reduce generator fuel usage with PV > in smaller residential settings. > > I just came across this solution from Fronius: > https://www.fronius.com/en/solar-energy/installers-partners/products-solutions/offgrid-backup/pv-genset-saving-fuels-with-photovoltaics. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay > May 25, 2021 at 4:16 PM > Installing PV/inverters to a generator is a common practice. > One must make sure you don’t ever have more PV/inverter than load to > prevent either generator damage or shut down. > > I worked on a big project that did actually shut the generator down, it > tried to run backwards as the PV power exceeded the load. Didn’t damage the > generator, 125kw. > > The main reason is to reduce fuel burn, but how how it is reduced has a > number of variables: age, fuel type, size, where in the power band it’s > operating , and if a larger newer diesel ( they have a very different fuel > burn curve than older ones are which works very well with solar). > > SMA and others have full packages that communicate with the generator for > really large systems like mines etc. > > Not knowing the size/type of the PV/generator and the variables, hard to > say if there would be much fuel savings. > > Jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jerry Shafer > May 25, 2021 at 9:28 AM > Not kidding, but not in reference of wildfires either. Installing > inverters directly connected to the gennys is in the past lead to smoke. > Jerry > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 2 18:09:29 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2021 15:09:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You may have to educate these people about what happens once the sun goes down. It does sound like a good way damage electronics (loads) if not done perfectly! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 16:58:00 -0400, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Maybe it's time for a change of thinking in the resi market. People who consider PV and can't have it used for backup get disenfranchised quickly. On Wed, Jun 2, 2021, 3:52 PM Jeff Clearwater wrote: As Jay says SMA has the Fuel Save Controller for large PV to Diesel hybrid systems - with or without batteries. https://www.sma.de/en/industrial-systems/fuel-save-solution-for-hybrid-systems.html So no reason it can't be done on a smaller scale. Best, Jeff Village Power Design Jason Szumlanski [4] June 1, 2021 at 3:51 AM I'm wondering why this isn't more common and better documented. We are getting a lot of requests for solar to reduce generator fuel usage with PV in smaller residential settings. I just came across this solution from Fronius: https://www.fronius.com/en/solar-energy/installers-partners/products-solutions/offgrid-backup/pv-genset-saving-fuels-with-photovoltaics. [5] Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [6] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules "> Jay [13] May 25, 2021 at 4:16 PM Installing PV/inverters to a generator is a common practice. One must make sure you don't ever have more PV/inverter than load to prevent either generator damage or shut down. I worked on a big project that did actually shut the generator down, it tried to run backwards as the PV power exceeded the load. Didn't damage the generator, 125kw. The main reason is to reduce fuel burn, but how how it is reduced has a number of variables: age, fuel type, size, where in the power band it's operating , and if a larger newer diesel ( they have a very different fuel burn curve than older ones are which works very well with solar). SMA and others have full packages that communicate with the generator for really large systems like mines etc. Not knowing the size/type of the PV/generator and the variables, hard to say if there would be much fuel savings. Jay _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [14] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List rules "> Jerry Shafer [21] May 25, 2021 at 9:28 AM Not kidding, but not in reference of wildfires either. Installing inverters directly connected to the gennys is in the past lead to smoke. Jerry _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [22] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [28] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [29] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Wed Jun 2 18:21:32 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2021 15:21:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How much opportunity is there really for fuel savings in a residential, back-up power application anyway? Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > You may have to educate these people about what happens once the sun goes > down. It does sound like a good way damage electronics (loads) if not done > perfectly! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 16:58:00 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Maybe it's time for a change of thinking in the resi market. People who > consider PV and can't have it used for backup get disenfranchised quickly. > > On Wed, Jun 2, 2021, 3:52 PM Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > >> As Jay says SMA has the Fuel Save Controller for large PV to Diesel >> hybrid systems - with or without batteries. >> >> >> https://www.sma.de/en/industrial-systems/fuel-save-solution-for-hybrid-systems.html >> >> So no reason it can't be done on a smaller scale. >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> Village Power Design >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> June 1, 2021 at 3:51 AM >> I'm wondering why this isn't more common and better documented. We are >> getting a lot of requests for solar to reduce generator fuel usage with PV >> in smaller residential settings. >> >> I just came across this solution from Fronius: >> https://www.fronius.com/en/solar-energy/installers-partners/products-solutions/offgrid-backup/pv-genset-saving-fuels-with-photovoltaics. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Jay >> May 25, 2021 at 4:16 PM >> Installing PV/inverters to a generator is a common practice. >> One must make sure you don't ever have more PV/inverter than load to >> prevent either generator damage or shut down. >> >> I worked on a big project that did actually shut the generator down, it >> tried to run backwards as the PV power exceeded the load. Didn't damage the >> generator, 125kw. >> >> The main reason is to reduce fuel burn, but how how it is reduced has a >> number of variables: age, fuel type, size, where in the power band it's >> operating , and if a larger newer diesel ( they have a very different fuel >> burn curve than older ones are which works very well with solar). >> >> SMA and others have full packages that communicate with the generator for >> really large systems like mines etc. >> >> Not knowing the size/type of the PV/generator and the variables, hard to >> say if there would be much fuel savings. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Jerry Shafer >> May 25, 2021 at 9:28 AM >> Not kidding, but not in reference of wildfires either. Installing >> inverters directly connected to the gennys is in the past lead to smoke. >> Jerry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 3 11:06:38 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 11:06:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Chilicon Microinverters AC Coupled with Generators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree that the fuel savings would likely be minimal, but it's all about customer perception and maximizing limited fuel stores after a storm. Some people just can't wrap their head around losing solar power during a utility outage. On Wed, Jun 2, 2021, 6:21 PM Brian Mehalic wrote: > How much opportunity is there really for fuel savings in a residential, > back-up power application anyway? > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> You may have to educate these people about what happens once the sun goes >> down. It does sound like a good way damage electronics (loads) if not done >> perfectly! >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 16:58:00 -0400, Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >> Maybe it's time for a change of thinking in the resi market. People who >> consider PV and can't have it used for backup get disenfranchised quickly. >> >> On Wed, Jun 2, 2021, 3:52 PM Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >> >>> As Jay says SMA has the Fuel Save Controller for large PV to Diesel >>> hybrid systems - with or without batteries. >>> >>> >>> https://www.sma.de/en/industrial-systems/fuel-save-solution-for-hybrid-systems.html >>> >>> So no reason it can't be done on a smaller scale. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> Village Power Design >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> June 1, 2021 at 3:51 AM >>> I'm wondering why this isn't more common and better documented. We are >>> getting a lot of requests for solar to reduce generator fuel usage with PV >>> in smaller residential settings. >>> >>> I just came across this solution from Fronius: >>> https://www.fronius.com/en/solar-energy/installers-partners/products-solutions/offgrid-backup/pv-genset-saving-fuels-with-photovoltaics. >>> >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lou at spreesolarsystems.com Fri Jun 4 02:16:55 2021 From: lou at spreesolarsystems.com (Lou Russo) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2021 20:16:55 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Tri-Metric TM-2030-A and LFPs Message-ID: Aloha All, Does anyone have experience with the TM-2030's SOC accuracy when used with LFP batteries that they are willing to share? I would think the TM-2030 would be accurate but I just want some confirmation. Thanks. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 4 10:26:24 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2021 07:26:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Tri-Metric TM-2030-A and LFPs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4221c8205b8e10ccc2fec701c3ab16ea@127.0.0.1> You probably need guidance from the battery manufacturers BMS on how to configure the battery monitor. With some trial and error you can find decent settings. This is the main reason I only use closed loop power sytems with LFP. Just too easy and spot on accurate. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 3 Jun 2021 20:16:55 -1000, Lou Russo wrote: Aloha All, Does anyone have experience with the TM-2030's SOC accuracy when used with LFP batteries that they are willing to share? I would think the TM-2030 would be accurate but I just want some confirmation. Thanks. Aloha, Lou Russo lou at spreesolarsystems.com [3] 808 345 6762 Spree Solar Systems LLC CT-34322 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:lou at spreesolarsystems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 12:50:08 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 12:50:08 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid overvoltage and undervoltage issues on SMA install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with voltage drop, I had two sb4000’s with this issue. Power company said it was on Our side but I was sure it was the long run from the utility transformer. They finally agreed and ran a heavier line. Problem solved. One observation that was puzzling was that only one inverter would be off when I arrived and it wasn’t always the same one. When one shut off due to over voltage, the voltage would drop and the second one would stay on. Both had the exact same upper voltage limit. John B On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 3:23 PM August Goers wrote: > Hi James - > > Is there a long run between the inverters and the point of > interconnection? As others have pointed out, it appears that the symptoms > you describe are voltage drop related. If the wire size is too small it > will result in voltage at the inverters going up when current starts to > flow. The inverters match the voltage at the utility point of connection. > If, for example, the voltage at the main service panel is 240 volts and you > have a 10% voltage drop due to undersized wires, you'd see 240 x 1.10 = 264 > v at the inverters. Sometimes this issue is compounded if the utility > voltage is a little on the high side, which can happen at the end of the > distribution lines. > > There could be other explanations as well. > > Best, August > > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:25 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> Looks like the i verter is doing what it should 269 is out of range, what >> is the at meter voltage, libe loss or very high output voltage, 41 volts >> increase looks like resistance issues. More info would help, distance, wire >> size etc. >> Jerry >> Jerry >> >> >> On Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:52 AM James Reismiller >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I’m wondering if anybody has ideas on what could be causing grid >>> over/undervoltage errors on an install we did about a year ago that now has >>> these issues. The site is a 24 kW DC ground mount array with (3) SMA >>> SB7.0-1SP-US-40 inverters. I’ve checked and done the following: >>> >>> 1. Measured voltage min/max at inverter terminals and AC combiner. >>> Min – 228VAC (with no inverter output) Max - 269 VAC (when inverter trying >>> to connect)! >>> 2. Had utility check service and transformer with load meter (with >>> no PV running). No issues found and utility engineer stated he thinks it’s >>> on our side. >>> 3. Checked all AC connections including neutral (seemed like neutral >>> issue) from inverters back to supply-side tap (fused disco). >>> 4. Changed SMA upper voltage window in grid guard settings to 272V >>> max and 264V reconnection. This helped for a while but now is faulting >>> again. >>> >>> >>> >>> Have any of you ran into this issue and how did you solve it? Or what’s >>> the next thing to check? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> >>> >>> Be Well, >>> >>> James Reismiller >>> >>> He/Him/His >>> >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® >>> >>> Abundant Solar >>> >>> 541-231-8072 xt. 3 >>> >>> CCB#175919 >>> >>> www.abundantsolar.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer >>> fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion >>> reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we >>> could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!" >>> >>> >>> >>> ~William McDonough >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Jun 4 13:13:15 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 11:13:15 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Tri-Metric TM-2030-A and LFPs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a935d7a-882b-9946-9751-d44bbd4fc179@sindelarsolar.com> Lou, I spoke this morning with Kedar, who purchased Bogart Engineering several years ago, about an out-of-warranty repair on a TM-2030 (Stupid human trick - after installing maybe 100 TriMetrics over 30 years I wired a new one backwards). Remembering your post I asked him about settings for lithium batteries in general. I have done this successfully with several Blue Ion LFP battery replacement installations. His recommendations: - set voltage to the BMS voltage regulation setpoint (55.2 for Blue Ion) - set amps either Off or to a high (5-10%) to disable this parameter - Set CEF to 98-99% - set battery AH capacity to actual rated capacity @100% DoD I checked records for a couple of my own 2018 installations (Both of these had existing TM-2020s rather than TM-2030s, which shouldn't make any difference in their settings and operation.): - I set voltage a bit lower - 54.0 and 54.5 - I set amps off in one case and 8A in the other - I set a large (24 kWhr) CEF to 98% and a smaller (8 kWhr) set to 95% And both have continued to supply accurate and usable info to the client. By the way, I was initially disappointed to learn that Ralph Hiesey had sold his business and retired. I have recently, however, received excellent customer support from Kedar, the owner of Bogart Engineering, and wanted to pass that good review along. Allan On 6/4/2021 12:16 AM, Lou Russo wrote: > Aloha All, > Does anyone have experience with the TM-2030's SOC accuracy when used > with LFP batteries that they are willing to share? > I would think the TM-2030 would be accurate but I just want some > confirmation. > Thanks. > Lou Russo -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Jun 4 14:19:35 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2021 14:19:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Tri-Metric TM-2030-A and LFPs In-Reply-To: <3a935d7a-882b-9946-9751-d44bbd4fc179@sindelarsolar.com> References: <3a935d7a-882b-9946-9751-d44bbd4fc179@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: Another shout out for  the Trimetric folks.  They revised the manuals recently as well, nice job. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/4/21 1:13 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > Lou, > I spoke this morning with Kedar, who purchased Bogart Engineering > several years ago, about an out-of-warranty repair on a TM-2030 > (Stupid human trick - after installing maybe 100 TriMetrics over 30 > years I wired a new one backwards). Remembering your post I asked him > about settings for lithium batteries in general. I have done this > successfully with several Blue Ion LFP battery replacement installations. > His recommendations: > - set voltage to the BMS voltage regulation setpoint (55.2 for Blue Ion) > - set amps either Off or to a high (5-10%) to disable this parameter > - Set CEF to 98-99% > - set battery AH capacity to actual rated capacity @100% DoD > > I checked records for a couple of my own 2018 installations (Both of > these had existing TM-2020s rather than TM-2030s, which shouldn't make > any difference in their settings and operation.): > - I set voltage a bit lower - 54.0 and 54.5 > - I set amps off in one case and 8A in the other > - I set a large (24 kWhr) CEF to 98% and a smaller (8 kWhr) set to 95% > And both have continued to supply accurate and usable info to the client. > > By the way, I was initially disappointed to learn that Ralph Hiesey > had sold his business and retired. I have recently, however, received > excellent customer support from Kedar, the owner of Bogart > Engineering, and wanted to pass that good review along. > Allan > > On 6/4/2021 12:16 AM, Lou Russo wrote: >> Aloha All, >> Does anyone have experience with the TM-2030's SOC accuracy when used >> with LFP batteries that they are willing to share? >> I would think the TM-2030 would be accurate but I just want some >> confirmation. >> Thanks. >> Lou Russo > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Thu Jun 3 10:10:03 2021 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2021 07:10:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin note Message-ID: <1622731539975.1cbc6e0020e0e005@re-wrenches.org> Wrenches. I'm going to be out in the wilderness for about a week. (Yes, your member contributions have helped allow me a vacation.) One of the things I do is keep an eye on the spam & off-topic traps to make sure Wrenches' messages that are caught can be pushed through. I don't anticipate any, but if it happens I won't be around to approve until back into civilization. Anyway, keep the messages flowing and I'll see your good stuff when I get home. From kirkh at vermont.solar Sat Jun 5 13:41:53 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2021 13:41:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2000v DLO/RHW-2 : in conduit required? Message-ID: Hello All, I've now done several Blue Ion, both 48vdc and HV storage systems. Those with experience know that the 2.0 cabinet DC cabling comes out the back of the unit. In my 48v off-grid installs I've used DLO/RHW-2 into a wireway, making a DC bus with power distribution blocks, then to inverter, etc. I loop and support the cable from the back of the battery cabinet, allowing extra should I ever need to move it(it's on casters) to access the back for servicing. The current BI 48v system I am building is commercial grid-tie and requires AHJ inspection. Is having RHW-2 cable in free air from the cabinet to a wireway NEC-legal (i.e. without conduit)? Obviously if conduit is needed, it eliminates looping and an easy roll of the cabinets away from a wall for service. Thanks. I await the opinion of of the BI gurus of this forum. Found references on Mike Holt's forum to DLO/RHW-2 and conduit requirement, but no consensus one way or the other. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Jun 5 16:43:11 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 16:43:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2000v DLO/RHW-2 : in conduit required? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9238dc8f-72d7-0dc7-f0ac-d86c4bc50c78@solarray.com> I brought this very question up a couple of years ago here. IMHO, it needs to be in conduit.  I have not found NEC exemptions for DC battery cable.  We modded the cabinet, so that we could put a 2" KO on the side, and ran conduit straight to it.  Everything is accessible from the top and front, so I don't see the need to having it roll away from the wall. We ended up also relocating the buss block inside, because it was really hard to get to, to torque the connections.  I can share our mods, if you're interested. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/5/21 1:41 PM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > Hello All, > I've now done several Blue Ion, both 48vdc and HV storage systems. > Those with experience know that the 2.0 cabinet DC cabling comes out > the back of the unit. In my 48v off-grid installs I've used DLO/RHW-2 > into a wireway, making a DC bus with power distribution blocks, then > to inverter, etc. I loop and support the cable from the back of the > battery cabinet, allowing extra should I ever need to move it(it's on > casters) to access the back for servicing. > > The current BI 48v system I am building is commercial grid-tie and > requires AHJ inspection. Is having RHW-2 cable in free air from the > cabinet to a wireway NEC-legal (i.e. without conduit)? Obviously if > conduit is needed, it eliminates looping and an easy roll of the > cabinets away from a wall for service. > > Thanks. I await the opinion of of the BI gurus of this forum. Found > references on Mike Holt's forum to DLO/RHW-2 and conduit requirement, > but no consensus one way or the other. > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > */Celebrating our 30^th  Anniversary 1991-2021!!/* > > *www.vermont.solar* > ** > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: akalfolpjolgfckl.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 163485 bytes Desc: not available URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sat Jun 5 19:05:40 2021 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:05:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Configuration Tool password needed Message-ID: <64c86b71-4417-f1b1-e74c-c872ce7161db@remotepowerinc.com> Esteemed Wrenches,  Working on a system with 4 XW+ inverters.  Using a conext config tool I used a few years ago. I am trying to set the AC output voltages on the inverters so they were within .5 VAC per the manual.  When you try to configure the AC output It gives you a warning and requires a password.  I have tried the password that worked with the Gateway and guessed at many others but no luck.  I did a word search for "password" in all the schneider O & M manuals that had anything remotely to do with inverters, config tool, multi inverter systems etc. Anyone know the secret handshake?  If I made one years ago and no longer have it does anyone know how I can reset it? Also wondering if anyone is using the new combox successfully with XW+ inverters?  Looks like Schneider discontinued the XW+ line as well as the original combox.  I've heard good things about the combox and would like to try out the new version if it's compatible. Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. Fairbanks, AK From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jun 5 19:44:29 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2021 16:44:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Configuration Tool password needed In-Reply-To: <64c86b71-4417-f1b1-e74c-c872ce7161db@remotepowerinc.com> References: <64c86b71-4417-f1b1-e74c-c872ce7161db@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <5fefba8356897da0e4977c2a7d18ed6e@127.0.0.1> Hey Greg, The PW should be in here at the link. It is in the XWP NA link at the website under user manuals. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Conext-XW-Pro-NA-Addendum_Multi-Unit-AC-Output-Voltage-Configuration-and-Calibration-990-91314.pdf If it is not, let us know! I will see if it is in a file here or can check on monday! Getting close 5 pm here and that is a priority The monitor system and remote config system is called Insight Local. It can go out to Insight cloud for remote control like Optics. It works very well with old legacy grey box XW's and also with XW+ and XW pro. They knocked this system out of the park as it is all I need for my 300+ clients using XW. Alot of them do not want anything but the SCP. I make them buy a conext Home or Facility anyway for my own ease. Conext Facility was called the Gateway. They are the same and work really well. Combox is discontinued and no longer for sale! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:05:40 -0800, greg egan wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches, Working on a system with 4 XW+ inverters. Using a > conext config tool I used a few years ago. I am trying to set the AC > output voltages on the inverters so they were within .5 VAC per the > manual. When you try to configure the AC output It gives you a warning > and requires a password. I have tried the password that worked with the > Gateway and guessed at many others but no luck. I did a word search for > "password" in all the schneider O & M manuals that had anything remotely > to do with inverters, config tool, multi inverter systems etc. > > Anyone know the secret handshake? If I made one years ago and no longer > have it does anyone know how I can reset it? > > Also wondering if anyone is using the new combox successfully with XW+ > inverters? Looks like Schneider discontinued the XW+ line as well as > the original combox. I've heard good things about the combox and would > like to try out the new version if it's compatible. > > Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > Fairbanks, AK > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Sat Jun 5 19:52:02 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 16:52:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> <91e9860c-4e74-efae-cf2a-9cbeec626198@solarray.com> Message-ID: <00a401d75a65$c93046e0$5b90d4a0$@solarwindworks.com> Check out Battle Born Batteries out of Reno, they have heater kits available for their LiFePO4 100 ah batteries. Just came out with a 280 ah 8D size, don't see a heater kit for it yet. Will check back in with them soon to see if it's on the shelf. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 12:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage I can think of a few other things for the wish list! l Closed loop charging with multiple sources. Robust BMS design to not be a new source of power failures Offgrid. Spare BMS for sale with product that is servicable. Gets Soc and temp into Insight and Optics A company that will be there when I need them. Too many players in the battery game right now that I do not know of! Only a few that do most all of these for me. Friday ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:24:11 -0400, Ray wrote: > This is the only company I know of that has dealt with the low > temperature charging issue. Its a great product, and the blue tooth > monitoring is an excellent feature too. This is what the other Li+ > batteries should be doing. The big down side is they are currently > limited to 12v. Wish they made a 48v pack. > > https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/21/21 12:12 PM, Larry wrote: >> My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery >> that does not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. >> >> Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may >> damage it quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution. >> >> There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries >> above freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the >> charger if the battery is unsafe to charge. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> >> >>> On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> >>> If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I >>> can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage. >>> >>> But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a >>> trickle charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? >>> >>> Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze >>> and be damaged anyway? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 21:45:18 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 18:45:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: <00a401d75a65$c93046e0$5b90d4a0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> <91e9860c-4e74-efae-cf2a-9cbeec626198@solarray.com> <00a401d75a65$c93046e0$5b90d4a0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: Discover Lithium Pro. Available in a few weeks. Game changer > On Jun 5, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: > > Check out Battle Born Batteries out of Reno, they have heater kits available for their LiFePO4 100 ah batteries. Just came out with a 280 ah 8D size, don't see a heater kit for it yet. Will check back in with them soon to see if it's on the shelf. > > Chris Worcester > Solar Wind Works > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > Cell 530-448-9692 > www.solarwindworks.com > chris at solarwindworks.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 12:33 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage > > I can think of a few other things for the wish list! l Closed loop charging with multiple sources. > Robust BMS design to not be a new source of power failures Offgrid. > Spare BMS for sale with product that is servicable. > Gets Soc and temp into Insight and Optics A company that will be there when I need them. Too many players in the battery game right now that I do not know of! Only a few that do most all of these for me. > > Friday ! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:24:11 -0400, Ray wrote: >> This is the only company I know of that has dealt with the low >> temperature charging issue. Its a great product, and the blue tooth >> monitoring is an excellent feature too. This is what the other Li+ >> batteries should be doing. The big down side is they are currently >> limited to 12v. Wish they made a 48v pack. >> >> > https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 5/21/21 12:12 PM, Larry wrote: >>> My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery >>> that does not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. >>> >>> Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may >>> damage it quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution. >>> >>> There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries >>> above freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the >>> charger if the battery is unsafe to charge. >>> >>> Larry Crutcher >>> >>> >>>> On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I >>>> can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging > voltage. >>>> >>>> But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a >>>> trickle charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? >>>> >>>> Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze >>>> and be damaged anyway? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Mark Frye >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tump at swnl.net Sun Jun 6 09:28:55 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 09:28:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Configuration Tool password needed In-Reply-To: <5fefba8356897da0e4977c2a7d18ed6e@127.0.0.1> References: <64c86b71-4417-f1b1-e74c-c872ce7161db@remotepowerinc.com> <5fefba8356897da0e4977c2a7d18ed6e@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I think it is Xantrex > On Jun 5, 2021, at 7:44 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Hey Greg, > > The PW should be in here at the link. It is in the XWP NA link at the website under user manuals. > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Conext-XW-Pro-NA-Addendum_Multi-Unit-AC-Output-Voltage-Configuration-and-Calibration-990-91314.pdf > > If it is not, let us know! I will see if it is in a file here or can check on monday! Getting close 5 pm here and that is a priority > > > > The monitor system and remote config system is called Insight Local. It can go out to Insight cloud for remote control like Optics. It works very well with old legacy grey box XW's and also with XW+ and XW pro. They knocked this system out of the park as it is all I need for my 300+ clients using XW. Alot of them do not want anything but the SCP. I make them buy a conext Home or Facility anyway for my own ease. Conext Facility was called the Gateway. They are the same and work really well. Combox is discontinued and no longer for sale! > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:05:40 -0800, greg egan > wrote: > > Esteemed Wrenches, Working on a system with 4 XW+ inverters. Using a > > conext config tool I used a few years ago. I am trying to set the AC > > output voltages on the inverters so they were within .5 VAC per the > > manual. When you try to configure the AC output It gives you a warning > > and requires a password. I have tried the password that worked with the > > Gateway and guessed at many others but no luck. I did a word search for > > "password" in all the schneider O & M manuals that had anything remotely > > to do with inverters, config tool, multi inverter systems etc. > > > > Anyone know the secret handshake? If I made one years ago and no longer > > have it does anyone know how I can reset it? > > > > Also wondering if anyone is using the new combox successfully with XW+ > > inverters? Looks like Schneider discontinued the XW+ line as well as > > the original combox. I've heard good things about the combox and would > > like to try out the new version if it's compatible. > > > > Thanks in advance, I appreciate it! > > > > Greg Egan > > Remote Power Inc. > > Fairbanks, AK > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > > other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sun Jun 6 09:30:07 2021 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 05:30:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Configuration Tool password needed In-Reply-To: <5fefba8356897da0e4977c2a7d18ed6e@127.0.0.1> References: <5fefba8356897da0e4977c2a7d18ed6e@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Wrenches, The password for the Schneider Configuration tool is "xantrex" all lower case.  This information was provided by Pieter Hubner of Off-Grid Enterprises.  I tried it and it works! All the best, Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 6 10:00:44 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2021 07:00:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext Configuration Tool password needed In-Reply-To: References: <5fefba8356897da0e4977c2a7d18ed6e@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <23cae7fc5a10d2e8a04e5c2b29173ba8@127.0.0.1> Cool Tump ! I never did find it.... I know it is somewhere. Remember after you enter it to hit accept and not enter. Xantrex use to have a user forum and when XW came out, the project engiener Jeff Fieldhouse, who won the DoD grant for developement was asked what XW means. He said wel,l it means xantrex wins. Over 15 years now it is still the only inverter I have seen with an 80 pound toroid and a cooling channel that cools the electronics, without blowing dust on them. Dust can get conductive and that was what DoD wanted for long life. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 05:30:07 -0800, greg egan wrote: > Wrenches, The password for the Schneider Configuration tool is "xantrex" > all lower case.  This information was provided by Pieter Hubner of > Off-Grid Enterprises.  I tried it and it works! > > All the best, > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From pgiroux at mindspring.com Sun Jun 6 10:38:38 2021 From: pgiroux at mindspring.com (pgiroux at mindspring.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 10:38:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help Message-ID: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208's and two transformers, one on the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. Thank you Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 6 11:14:33 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2021 08:14:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Trace was sold to xantrex in about 1998 I recall. There are places that will repair these from scrap units. They are seriously in the replacement category if you have to be the "support" My opinion. Wow 85 watt BP solar take me back to the late 90's. PITA to wire 264 small panels but they are there and if working??? might be worth the time. Might Not be! If you have 2 inverters and 2 transformers and 208v, I am guessing that the transformers are how you are getting 208? Usually there are 3 inverters for 208v. My advice is that I would start fresh if my name was on it! Hope this helps! Hopefully the group will be more positive than I am. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 10:38:38 -0400, wrote: Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208's and two transformers, one on the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. Thank you Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Sun Jun 6 12:07:53 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 09:07:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: All of the "PV" Series inverters we installed from Trace/Xantrex required external isolation transformers. That is, most smaller string inverters of that era had built-in iso transformers, but the PV series did not. Remember that the DC negative is grounded. I suppose it's also possible that the gas station service is 480V, in which case the iso transformer would also (in addition to isolation) serve the purpose of converting from 208 to 480V. It's possible everything was still working, but probably won't be for long! Blake Gleason, PE Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence Sun Light & Power On Sun, Jun 6, 2021, 7:38 AM wrote: > Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that > have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday > that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth > of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208’s and two transformers, one on > the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large > renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. > We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my > dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the > system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. > > > > Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I > need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter > and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if > needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole > canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters > ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, > any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. > > > > Thank you > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc > > Roswell Ga > > 678 525 0468 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Jun 6 12:38:40 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 06:38:40 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Those dinosaur Trace PV series inverters REQUIRE that isolation transformer between it and the AC tie-in. As in, it cannot be removed. So a big question is whether the two inverters are in good working order, right? I’ve got inverters of that vintage still operating in the field. One of the common failure modes is the cooling fan failing. Which is an easy enough repair. By contrast, a board failure is bigger bad news because I’ve found it impossible to get any replacement parts from Schneider. marco On Sunday, June 6, 2021, wrote: > Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that > have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday > that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth > of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208’s and two transformers, one on > the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large > renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. > We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my > dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the > system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. > > > > Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I > need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter > and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if > needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole > canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters > ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, > any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. > > > > Thank you > > Peter Giroux > > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc > > Roswell Ga > > 678 525 0468 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 6 12:58:52 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2021 09:58:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Why would you expect Schneider to support Trace? Trace was bought by Xantrex who were bought by Schneider. That seems rediculous to expect parts back 23+ years. One of the reason any company stops buiding a product is the components are no longer available. The other reason is onboard memory to support a network. Trace never had networked devices. Not sure if these units are in a sell mode or what mode they were used for Peter? You sure about 208v? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 06:38:40 -1000, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: Those dinosaur Trace PV series inverters REQUIRE that isolation transformer between it and the AC tie-in. As in, it cannot be removed. So a big question is whether the two inverters are in good working order, right? I've got inverters of that vintage still operating in the field. One of the common failure modes is the cooling fan failing. Which is an easy enough repair. By contrast, a board failure is bigger bad news because I've found it impossible to get any replacement parts from Schneider. marco On Sunday, June 6, 2021, wrote: Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208's and two transformers, one on the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. Thank you Peter Giroux American Solar "> Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:pgiroux at mindspring.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 6 13:01:12 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2021 10:01:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <1a608bda69c9be34aea999b622402947@127.0.0.1> Apologies! I missed the PV-10208 model for Trace.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 09:07:53 -0700, Blake Gleason wrote: All of the "PV" Series inverters we installed from Trace/Xantrex required external isolation transformers. That is, most smaller string inverters of that era had built-in iso transformers, but the PV series did not. Remember that the DC negative is grounded. I suppose it's also possible that the gas station service is 480V, in which case the iso transformer would also (in addition to isolation) serve the purpose of converting from 208 to 480V. It's possible everything was still working, but probably won't be for long! Blake Gleason, PE Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence Sun Light border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;"> Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208's and two transformers, one on the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. Thank you Peter Giroux American Solar "> Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:pgiroux at mindspring.com [4] http://re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Jun 6 13:15:38 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 07:15:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Like you said Dave, Xantrex purchased Trace and the Xantrex line was purchased by Schneider. Back in the day, if you got lucky in calling Schneider solar tech support, you could find someone who possessed legacy knowledge of Trace/Xantrex products and could assist with trouble-shooting and repairs. But I guess those days are long gone. On Sunday, June 6, 2021, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > Why would you expect Schneider to support Trace? Trace was bought by > Xantrex who were bought by Schneider. That seems rediculous to expect parts > back 23+ years. One of the reason any company stops buiding a product is > the components are no longer available. The other reason is onboard memory > to support a network. Trace never had networked devices. > > Not sure if these units are in a sell mode or what mode they were used for > Peter? You sure about 208v? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 06:38:40 -1000, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > Those dinosaur Trace PV series inverters REQUIRE that isolation > transformer between it and the AC tie-in. As in, it cannot be removed. > > So a big question is whether the two inverters are in good working order, > right? I've got inverters of that vintage still operating in the field. One > of the common failure modes is the cooling fan failing. Which is an easy > enough repair. By contrast, a board failure is bigger bad news because > I've found it impossible to get any replacement parts from Schneider. > > marco > > On Sunday, June 6, 2021, wrote: > >> Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that >> have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday >> that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth >> of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208's and two transformers, one on >> the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large >> renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. >> We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my >> dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the >> system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. >> >> >> >> Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I >> need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter >> and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if >> needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole >> canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters >> ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, >> any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thank you >> >> Peter Giroux >> >> American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc >> >> Roswell Ga >> >> 678 525 0468 >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Sun Jun 6 13:31:20 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 10:31:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: <00a401d75a65$c93046e0$5b90d4a0$@solarwindworks.com> References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> <91e9860c-4e74-efae-cf2a-9cbeec626198@solarray.com> <00a401d75a65$c93046e0$5b90d4a0$@solarwindworks.com> Message-ID: <28E7A096-A54C-4588-A1B8-861E42C48A15@starlightsolar.com> The problem with Battle born heated battery is that it was an after thought. It uses power from the battery to heat itself and may fully discharge the battery. LiFeBlue battery does not use any energy from the battery for heating. It also has an advanced BMS-heater controller that can pass low current, up to 0.07C, directly to the cells so early morning PV solar power is fully utilized until enough charge current is available to turn on the internal heater. In addition to all batteries having Bluetooth SoC monitoring built in, the Version 3 batteries have dual modbus ports for developing communications and control. https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/300ah-d-lt-lithium-battery.html Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (Disclosure: I have a financial interest in LiFeBlue Battery) On Jun 5, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: Check out Battle Born Batteries out of Reno, they have heater kits available for their LiFePO4 100 ah batteries. Just came out with a 280 ah 8D size, don't see a heater kit for it yet. Will check back in with them soon to see if it's on the shelf. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 12:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage I can think of a few other things for the wish list! l Closed loop charging with multiple sources. Robust BMS design to not be a new source of power failures Offgrid. Spare BMS for sale with product that is servicable. Gets Soc and temp into Insight and Optics A company that will be there when I need them. Too many players in the battery game right now that I do not know of! Only a few that do most all of these for me. Friday ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:24:11 -0400, Ray wrote: > This is the only company I know of that has dealt with the low > temperature charging issue. Its a great product, and the blue tooth > monitoring is an excellent feature too. This is what the other Li+ > batteries should be doing. The big down side is they are currently > limited to 12v. Wish they made a 48v pack. > > https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 5/21/21 12:12 PM, Larry wrote: >> My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery >> that does not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. >> >> Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may >> damage it quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution. >> >> There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries >> above freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the >> charger if the battery is unsafe to charge. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> >> >>> On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye wrote: >>> >>> Folks, >>> >>> If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I >>> can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage. >>> >>> But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a >>> trickle charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? >>> >>> Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze >>> and be damaged anyway? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mark Frye >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 6 13:32:44 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2021 10:32:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <60b3a7e75c2b162b308b11858166fbcf@127.0.0.1> In case you do not have the manual Peter, here is a link. https://www.abcsolar.com/pdf/PV-10208.pdf Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 10:38:38 -0400, wrote: Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208's and two transformers, one on the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. Thank you Peter Giroux American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sun Jun 6 13:49:44 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 13:49:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: <28E7A096-A54C-4588-A1B8-861E42C48A15@starlightsolar.com> References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> <91e9860c-4e74-efae-cf2a-9cbeec626198@solarray.com> <00a401d75a65$c93046e0$5b90d4a0$@solarwindworks.com> <28E7A096-A54C-4588-A1B8-861E42C48A15@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <15154c31-6023-3e02-8137-779687f01f1a@solarray.com> This is the way any battery designed for off grid use should be set up. Life Blue may be a small supplier, but they are technically way ahead of the Li+ pack on monitoring, BMS, and cold weather operation. SOC: No complicated comm, just blue tooth on a phone, don't even need cell service. It works, even before you unpack the battery. BMS: can mostly accept default lead acid controller and inverter settings, so no weird compatibility issues. Just swap batteries. Heating:  just optimizes the PV to do the job, no external fuss. In the end, as fancy as these are on the inside, they literally are just a drop-in replacement for an equivalent 12 v lead acid battery, even the same form factor.  Their only problem is they don't come in 24 and 48 v offerings. Full Disclosure:  I am not affiliated in any way with LiFe Blue, I just appreciate good practical engineering.  Other manus seem to have almost zero desire to listen to wrenches and improve their designs. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/6/21 1:31 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > The problem with Battle born heated battery is that it was an after > thought. It uses power from the battery to heat itself and may fully > discharge the battery. > > LiFeBlue battery does not use any energy from the battery for heating. > It also has an advanced BMS-heater controller that can pass low > current, up to 0.07C, directly to the cells so early morning PV solar > power is fully utilized until enough charge current is available to > turn on the internal heater. In addition to all batteries having > Bluetooth SoC monitoring built in, the Version 3 batteries have dual > modbus ports for developing communications and control. > https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/300ah-d-lt-lithium-battery.html > > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > (Disclosure: I have a financial interest in LiFeBlue Battery) > > > > > On Jun 5, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Chris Worcester > wrote: > > Check out Battle Born Batteries out of Reno, they have heater kits > available for their LiFePO4 100 ah batteries. Just came out with a 280 > ah 8D size, don't see a heater kit for it yet. Will check back in with > them soon to see if it's on the shelf. > > Chris Worcester > Solar Wind Works > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > Cell 530-448-9692 > www.solarwindworks.com > chris at solarwindworks.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On > Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 12:33 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage > > I can think of a few other things for the wish list! l Closed loop > charging with multiple sources. > Robust BMS design to not be a new source of power failures Offgrid. > Spare BMS for sale with product that is servicable. > Gets Soc and temp into Insight and Optics A company that will be there > when I need them. Too many players in the battery game right now that > I do not know of! Only a few that do most all of these for me. > > Friday ! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > > On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:24:11 -0400, Ray wrote: >> This is the only company I know of that has dealt with the low >> temperature charging issue.  Its a great product, and the blue tooth >> monitoring is an excellent feature too.  This is what the other Li+ >> batteries should be doing.  The big down side is they are currently >> limited to 12v.  Wish they made a 48v pack. >> >> > https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 5/21/21 12:12 PM, Larry wrote: >>> My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery >>> that does not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. >>> >>> Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may >>> damage it quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution. >>> >>> There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries >>> above freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the >>> charger if the battery is unsafe to charge. >>> >>> Larry Crutcher >>> >>> >>>> On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye > wrote: >>>> >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I >>>> can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging > voltage. >>>> >>>> But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a >>>> trickle charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and >>>> damage? >>>> >>>> Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze >>>> and be damaged anyway? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Mark Frye >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 6 13:59:59 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2021 10:59:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage In-Reply-To: <15154c31-6023-3e02-8137-779687f01f1a@solarray.com> References: <085a1d39-e95e-0889-11f6-004679ea0a16@berkeleysolar.com> <91e9860c-4e74-efae-cf2a-9cbeec626198@solarray.com> <00a401d75a65$c93046e0$5b90d4a0$@solarwindworks.com> <28E7A096-A54C-4588-A1B8-861E42C48A15@starlightsolar.com> <15154c31-6023-3e02-8137-779687f01f1a@solarray.com> Message-ID: Discover and Fortress are all I use for LFP. Closed loop charging with XW based on Soc and UL9540 for my clients in California. Game changer for me. So the low temp problem for offgrid is going to be solved. We just keep them from freezing for now in an offgrid home. Disagree that Life Blue is the only one and they do not close loop charge with XW! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 13:49:44 -0400, Ray wrote: This is the way any battery designed for off grid use should be set up. Life Blue may be a small supplier, but they are technically way ahead of the Li+ pack on monitoring, BMS, and cold weather operation. SOC: No complicated comm, just blue tooth on a phone, don't even need cell service. It works, even before you unpack the battery. BMS: can mostly accept default lead acid controller and inverter settings, so no weird compatibility issues. Just swap batteries. Heating: just optimizes the PV to do the job, no external fuss. In the end, as fancy as these are on the inside, they literally are just a drop-in replacement for an equivalent 12 v lead acid battery, even the same form factor. Their only problem is they don't come in 24 and 48 v offerings. Full Disclosure: I am not affiliated in any way with LiFe Blue, I just appreciate good practical engineering. Other manus seem to have almost zero desire to listen to wrenches and improve their designs. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/6/21 1:31 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com [3] wrote: The problem with Battle born heated battery is that it was an after thought. It uses power from the battery to heat itself and may fully discharge the battery. LiFeBlue battery does not use any energy from the battery for heating. It also has an advanced BMS-heater controller that can pass low current, up to 0.07C, directly to the cells so early morning PV solar power is fully utilized until enough charge current is available to turn on the internal heater. In addition to all batteries having Bluetooth SoC monitoring built in, the Version 3 batteries have dual modbus ports for developing communications and control. https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/300ah-d-lt-lithium-battery.html [4] Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (Disclosure: I have a financial interest in LiFeBlue Battery) On Jun 5, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Chris Worcester wrote: Check out Battle Born Batteries out of Reno, they have heater kits available for their LiFePO4 100 ah batteries. Just came out with a 280 ah 8D size, don't see a heater kit for it yet. Will check back in with them soon to see if it's on the shelf. Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com [6] chris at solarwindworks.com [7] -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [8] On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 12:33 PM To: RE-wrenches [9] Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 Low Temp Charging Damage I can think of a few other things for the wish list! l Closed loop charging with multiple sources. Robust BMS design to not be a new source of power failures Offgrid. Spare BMS for sale with product that is servicable. Gets Soc and temp into Insight and Optics A company that will be there when I need them. Too many players in the battery game right now that I do not know of! Only a few that do most all of these for me. Friday ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [10] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [11] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:24:11 -0400, Ray [12] wrote: This is the only company I know of that has dealt with the low temperature charging issue. Its a great product, and the blue tooth monitoring is an excellent feature too. This is what the other Li+ batteries should be doing. The big down side is they are currently limited to 12v. Wish they made a 48v pack. https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html [13] Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 5/21/21 12:12 PM, Larry wrote: My personal opinion is that you should not buy any lithium battery that does not provide adequate protection for all modes of operation. Freezing does not damage the battery; charging a frozen battery may damage it quickly. Trickle charging the battery is not the solution. There are two solutions: provide a heat source to keep the batteries above freezing or incorporate a temperature controller to disable the charger if the battery is unsafe to charge. Larry Crutcher On May 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Mark Frye [14] wrote: Folks, If I have a charger that does not have low battery charge cut-off, I can get in trouble if I have a frozen pack and apply a charging voltage. But, if I start with a pack that is above freezing and keep a trickle charge on it, can I keep that pack safe from freezing and damage? Or at some point, as ambient temperature drops, the pack will freeze and be damaged anyway? Thanks, Mark Frye _______________________________________ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [15] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [46] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [47] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [48] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [49] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:larry at starlightsolar.com [4] https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/300ah-d-lt-lithium-battery.html [5] mailto:chris at solarwindworks.com [6] http://www.solarwindworks.com [7] mailto:chris at solarwindworks.com [8] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [11] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [12] mailto:ray at solarray.com [13] https://www.lifebluebattery.com/rv-boat-low-temperature-lithium-ion-batteries/index.html [14] mailto:markf at berkeleysolar.com [15] http://re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] http://re-wrenches.org [23] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [26] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [28] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [29] http://re-wrenches.org [30] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [31] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [32] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [33] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [34] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [35] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [36] http://re-wrenches.org [37] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [38] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [39] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [40] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [41] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [42] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [43] http://re-wrenches.org [44] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [45] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [46] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [47] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [48] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [49] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Mon Jun 7 12:21:45 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 12:21:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <8584A3C7-40F8-4A76-BD7F-CBD8C6DBDDB0@swnl.net> If you have the old BP 585 watt modules I would strongly suggest that you scrap the whole system. Take advantages of better performance modules & inverters and IF the client may have tax liabilities then they can discuss the additional tax benefits of a new system with their accountant. those old BP 585 were around in the late 90s. > On Jun 6, 2021, at 10:38 AM, wrote: > > Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208’s and two transformers, one on the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. > > Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. > > Thank you > Peter Giroux > American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc > Roswell Ga > 678 525 0468 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 7 12:40:20 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2021 09:40:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: <8584A3C7-40F8-4A76-BD7F-CBD8C6DBDDB0@swnl.net> References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> <8584A3C7-40F8-4A76-BD7F-CBD8C6DBDDB0@swnl.net> Message-ID: <8377dcf9a805ad408adc45eef375328a@127.0.0.1> For sure Tump! BP had huge recalls of many different models for intermittent operation in a settlement after they got out of solar. There are alot of bad things in life. Intermittent electricals in solar, is a PITA. Still try to never buy anything from BP after the time I put in on that junk! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 12:21:45 -0400, Tump wrote: If you have the old BP 585 watt modules I would strongly suggest that you scrap the whole system. Take advantages of better performance modules border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> On Jun 6, 2021, at 10:38 AM, wrote: Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you that have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site yesterday that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that has 20 KW worth of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208's and two transformers, one on the output of each inverter. The system was shut down during a large renovation, wires cut and sort of lost under the pavement during the work. We have a good idea where we can dig to locate the conduit for AC but my dilemma is the equipment on the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the system is and if it was actually working prior to the reno. Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy part, I need to understand why there is a transformer along with the Trace inverter and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years and based on layout if needed can I replace inverter with current tech without rewiring the whole canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, wired to combiner box then out to inverters ). Power supply at gas station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, any and all help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. Thank you Peter Giroux American Solar font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Roswell Ga 678 525 0468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [5] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;">Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] WWW.SWNL.NET [12] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial;"> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:pgiroux at mindspring.com [4] mailto:pgiroux at mindspring.com [5] http://re-wrenches.org/ [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ [12] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Mon Jun 7 13:03:12 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 11:03:12 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Need some help In-Reply-To: <8377dcf9a805ad408adc45eef375328a@127.0.0.1> References: <000001d75ae1$a3a3c740$eaeb55c0$@mindspring.com> <8584A3C7-40F8-4A76-BD7F-CBD8C6DBDDB0@swnl.net> <8377dcf9a805ad408adc45eef375328a@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: For the record, though, the recalls came later, mostly with polycrystalline 72-cell modules, 160s and such. The 75s, 85s and 90s proved to have few failures. I'm still running my home off of 18 BP90s (one's an 85) and that 1,595 watt (original rating) from 1997, and it still runs around 1,300-1,400 watts IRL. I'm not defending BP - they went down in flames and for good reason - just making a distinction between early and mid-2000s. Allan On 6/7/2021 10:40 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > For sure Tump!   BP had huge recalls of many different models for > intermittent operation in a settlement after they got out of solar. > There are alot of bad things in life. Intermittent electricals in > solar, is a PITA. Still try to never buy anything from BP after the > time I put in on that junk! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 12:21:45 -0400, Tump wrote: > >> If you have the old BP 585 watt modules I would strongly suggest that >> you scrap the whole system.  Take advantages of better performance >> modules & inverters and IF the client may have tax liabilities then >> they can discuss the additional tax benefits of a new system with >> their accountant. those old BP 585 were around in the late 90s. >>> On Jun 6, 2021, at 10:38 AM, >> > >> > wrote: >>> >>>      Good morning fellow wrenchers, need some help from those of you >>> that have a bit more tenure than I do. Was called to look at a site >>> yesterday that is down due to renovations. It is a gas station that >>> has 20 KW worth of solar on the canopy, two Trace PV-10208's and two >>> transformers, one on the output of each inverter. The system was >>> shut down during a large renovation, wires cut and sort of lost >>> under the pavement during the work. We have a good idea where we can >>> dig to locate the conduit for AC but my dilemma is the equipment on >>> the canopy. The owner has no idea how old the system is and if it >>> was actually working prior to the reno. >>>      Getting AC back up and running to the canopy may be the easy >>> part, I need to understand why there is a transformer along with the >>> Trace inverter and how have these inverters held up for 20 + years >>> and based on layout if needed can I replace inverter with current >>> tech without rewiring the whole canopy ( 264 BP 85 watt panels, >>> wired to combiner box then out to inverters ). Power supply at gas >>> station is 208. So, please and thank you in advance, any and all >>> help, guidance and ideas greatly appreciated. >>> Thank you >>> Peter Giroux >>> American Solar & Alternative Energy Solutions inc >>> Roswell Ga >>> 678 525 0468 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>> try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >>> *Tump >>> 3391 at gmail.com >>> * *www.SWNL.net* >>> >>> >>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>> */     Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>> /**/                   207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>> >>> */           ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>> /**/ >>>               ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamie.greenwired at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 19:40:49 2021 From: jamie.greenwired at gmail.com (Jamie Rennie) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:40:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Eco 10 battery system Message-ID: We installed a Sonnen Eco 10 unit with whole house consumption kit (required for whole house backup). System is functional but the monitoring is all over the place. Will show consumption then show nothing and same with production from the PV. Been back and forth with Sonnen tech support trying to get this resolved to no avail. Weird thing is when we switch the system over to off-grid mode we get solid numbers on the monitoring. Wondering if anyone else has experienced these issues installing Sonnen systems? -- Respectfully, Jamie Rennie Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 C: 707-273-7387 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 www.greenwired.com [image: Description: signature] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8628 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 22:07:10 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 22:07:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sonnen Eco 10 battery system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jamie, Sounds like it could potentially be a wiring issue with the consumption meter inside the unit. I have run into this before with a factory mis-wired meter that was throwing off values. Best, Chris On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 7:41 PM Jamie Rennie wrote: > We installed a Sonnen Eco 10 unit with whole house consumption kit > (required for whole house backup). System is functional but the monitoring > is all over the place. Will show consumption then show nothing and same > with production from the PV. Been back and forth with Sonnen tech support > trying to get this resolved to no avail. Weird thing is when we switch the > system over to off-grid mode we get solid numbers on the monitoring. > Wondering if anyone else has experienced these issues installing Sonnen > systems? > > -- > > Respectfully, > > > Jamie Rennie > > Greenwired > > P: 707-923-2001 > C: 707-273-7387 > > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > > Redway, CA 95560 > > www.greenwired.com > > [image: Description: signature] > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 09:01:00 2021 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 09:01:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? Message-ID: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rich at solartechvt.com Tue Jun 8 09:05:32 2021 From: rich at solartechvt.com (Rich Nicol) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2021 09:05:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? In-Reply-To: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> References: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave Call John Hassle at Be Green Solar in Benton NH He is an authorized Magnum repair facility and stocks parts at least for PAE etc. it sure about 1524 AE though. Close by - just outside of Woodsville NH. 603-787-2317 Thanks Rich Sent from my iPad > On Jun 8, 2021, at 9:01 AM, palumbo131m at gmail.com wrote: > >  > Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? > It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Jun 9 12:13:03 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 09:13:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? In-Reply-To: <728bbaed-ecba-8c6b-4b72-9ce6dd51f463@villagelab.net> References: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> <728bbaed-ecba-8c6b-4b72-9ce6dd51f463@villagelab.net> Message-ID: <4fdb89df-b258-b9b0-97b6-fea22e7579f5@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Dave and Wrenches, This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on many systems. Best, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design > palumbo131m at gmail.com > June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM > > Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? > > It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small > spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied > by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Jun 9 13:09:47 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 10:09:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4fdb89df-b258-b9b0-97b6-fea22e7579f5@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> <728bbaed-ecba-8c6b-4b72-9ce6dd51f463@villagelab.net> <4fdb89df-b258-b9b0-97b6-fea22e7579f5@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: FWIW, we installed Magnum Energy inverters with Li battery systems for 8 years. Magnum inverters create a very high inrush current when connecting to any battery. A Li battery reaction time is much faster than LA so I think higher current for shorter duration is the problem. However, we have never damaged any inverter just by connecting it. A few years back I was working with Magnum to develop a solution for one of our Li-ion battery brands. They tested a 2kW inverter and Li battery and found that it produced more than 600A inrush, the limit of their test equipment. They could not say how high the current was and could not offer any solution. The BMS in LiFeBlue Battery was consequently redesigned to include a bypass loop to specifically handle high inrush. That cured the issue of the battery going into Short Circuit Protection mode which happens at 800A for 500us. Prior to the fix, we used 2.7V, 10F super capacitors in series connected to the battery terminals (photo attached). It was a bandaid cure but worked. The caps responded much faster than the BMS so they would provided the energy needed before the short circuit protection kicked in. You can solder 6 of them to a PC board (12V battery). Use 200C PTFE #10 or larger wire as short circuit can produce many hundreds of amps. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 9, 2021, at 9:13 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Dave and Wrenches, This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS. A momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and battery BMS. I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW. Many LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on many systems. Best, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design > palumbo131m at gmail.com June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM > Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? > It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. > > Dave Palumbo > Hyde Park, VT > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-06-09 at 9.52.58 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 431312 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jun 11 15:27:09 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 15:27:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? In-Reply-To: <4fdb89df-b258-b9b0-97b6-fea22e7579f5@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> <728bbaed-ecba-8c6b-4b72-9ce6dd51f463@villagelab.net> <4fdb89df-b258-b9b0-97b6-fea22e7579f5@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <6bda0449fbf9a0030bc827a0b91a578c@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Jeff, That sounds really useful. How do you wire this? Where do you get the momentary switch? Thanks, Drake --- On 2021-06-09 12:13, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > Hey Dave and Wrenches, > > This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS. A momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and battery BMS. I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW. Many LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on many systems. > > Best, > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > palumbo131m at gmail.com > June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM >> Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? >> >> It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. >> >> Dave Palumbo >> >> Hyde Park, VT >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sat Jun 12 14:32:24 2021 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 10:32:24 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem Message-ID: <0465a500-f592-753b-45a3-174e701469da@remotepowerinc.com> Wrenches, I'm getting ready to go outside the building and shoot myself.  AC Coupling is turned off.  The XW+ inverters are selling to each other.  XW+'s are disconnected from the load and from generator input.  System is off grid.  When I switch the ATS the inverters are supposed to pick up the load.  ~ 12 kW, maybe 18 worst case.  They are selling to each other and when I make the switch the lights flicker and the inverters go off, then they try to go on, and go off, etc. Sync cables are hooked up.  4 XW+ and 1 SCP on one xanbus network. No gateway hooked up at this time.  PV will be on it's own Xbus network.  Not planning on using the Gateway if I can help it. Thanks for any light you can shed on this.  Not sure why Schneider would ever want their inverters to sell to each other especially with AC Coupling OFF.  Arrgh. Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jun 12 15:22:31 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:22:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol-ark Message-ID: HI All, I have an application that I think is perfect for the sol-ark but wanted to check to see if it will actually do exactly what the customer wants. I”m pretty sure it can but just wanted to make sure. Hes on grid, but cannot sell solar back to the grid, and no not hawaii. System would be: DC coupled battery based grid connected for buying as needed but not selling He wants to do: 1. self consumption of main panel 2. charge batteries for battery back up of some loads: ie sub panel 3. generator backup Thanks in advance, jay Peltz Power From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Jun 12 15:49:56 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 15:49:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol-ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just reread that manual today to design a new system and I believe it will do exactly what you want. There is a grid-no sell mode. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 3:22 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I have an application that I think is perfect for the sol-ark but wanted > to check to see if it will actually do exactly what the customer wants. I”m > pretty sure it can but just wanted to make sure. > > Hes on grid, but cannot sell solar back to the grid, and no not hawaii. > > System would be: > DC coupled > battery based > grid connected for buying as needed but not selling > > > He wants to do: > > 1. self consumption of main panel > 2. charge batteries for battery back up of some loads: ie sub panel > 3. generator backup > > Thanks in advance, > > jay > > Peltz Power > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Jun 12 16:30:13 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:30:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem In-Reply-To: <0465a500-f592-753b-45a3-174e701469da@remotepowerinc.com> References: <0465a500-f592-753b-45a3-174e701469da@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <03332e63e95983efcc841f3a8a579ed4@127.0.0.1> Shooting is only for Targets and hunting season. You can't shoot during Tourist season. If they are selling you need to verify that grid support is off!. There are so many settings that interact. By default it was. I will ask, these are old units right? Did they ever work right? Is the firmware the same on all and do they have different ID numbers for the network? You may try going back to defaults. There really is not enough info in your post to go further. XW+ are out of support for US split phase and replaced with XWP about a year back. How old are they? If it were me, I would make sure that 2 of the units work correctly first. Take all other xw's off xanbus/Sync and test. Good Luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 10:32:24 -0800, greg egan wrote: > Wrenches, I'm getting ready to go outside the building and shoot > myself. AC Coupling is turned off. The XW+ inverters are selling to > each other. XW+'s are disconnected from the load and from generator > input. System is off grid. When I switch the ATS the inverters are > supposed to pick up the load. ~ 12 kW, maybe 18 worst case. They are > selling to each other and when I make the switch the lights flicker and > the inverters go off, then they try to go on, and go off, etc. > > Sync cables are hooked up. 4 XW+ and 1 SCP on one xanbus network. No > gateway hooked up at this time. PV will be on it's own Xbus network. > Not planning on using the Gateway if I can help it. > > Thanks for any light you can shed on this. Not sure why Schneider would > ever want their inverters to sell to each other especially with AC > Coupling OFF. Arrgh. > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sat Jun 12 16:46:36 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 15:46:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem In-Reply-To: <0465a500-f592-753b-45a3-174e701469da@remotepowerinc.com> References: <0465a500-f592-753b-45a3-174e701469da@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <604448C0-3EE2-461F-B5EE-D7382E229FDA@mavericksolar.com> It’s a good idea to make sure only one set as Master the others are slave. Start by adding one slave at a time. Turn off Search, Charger and Grid Support until you know they are playing happy. I prefer using the XW Config and walking through the wizard, but you can use Multi Unit setup, which will put everything in standby. I have several 8-12 unit XW sites 3-4 Inverters, SCP, AGS and Combox/ Gateway, etc. It can be done. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jun 12, 2021, at 1:32 PM, greg egan wrote: > > Wrenches, I'm getting ready to go outside the building and shoot myself. AC Coupling is turned off. The XW+ inverters are selling to each other. XW+'s are disconnected from the load and from generator input. System is off grid. When I switch the ATS the inverters are supposed to pick up the load. ~ 12 kW, maybe 18 worst case. They are selling to each other and when I make the switch the lights flicker and the inverters go off, then they try to go on, and go off, etc. > > Sync cables are hooked up. 4 XW+ and 1 SCP on one xanbus network. No gateway hooked up at this time. PV will be on it's own Xbus network. Not planning on using the Gateway if I can help it. > > Thanks for any light you can shed on this. Not sure why Schneider would ever want their inverters to sell to each other especially with AC Coupling OFF. Arrgh. > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at remotepowerinc.com Sun Jun 13 01:52:09 2021 From: greg at remotepowerinc.com (greg egan) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 21:52:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a8b4c1d-f13f-1b76-d8fc-1fb791710c4d@remotepowerinc.com> Dave and Maverick, Thanks for the info.  Dave, - Grid support is off.  Was never on. - inverters were purchased in Sep 2019.  Installed and turned off in Sep 2020.  Finishing installation now. - they worked a few days ago.  sometimes they sell to each other, sometimes they don't.  Last I looked they were behaving. - all named differently - are they really no longer supported?  if so it begs the question, how long will anything SE sells be supported? Maverick, - only one master - I may go adding them one at a time if they start selling to each other again.  It MAY be that when I lay the SCP down sometimes I'm laying it too close to the Batt cables and maybe there's some noise generated on the line?  who knows. Since you like the config tool, do you know how to set the voltages so they're all the same?  It seems like you're supposed to make the inverter you want to adjust the output voltage on,  you're supposed to make that inverter the master.  When I try (even with all the other inverters off) the inverter gives me a fault and shuts off.  I forget the F- number but it's like a naming conflict fault of some sort. I'm thinking of trying to - kill power to all the inverters. - erase anything in the SCP if I can figure out how. - disconnect all CAT 5 cables from the inverters except the cable to the SCP and the end plug for the one I'm working on. I'm hoping that MAYBE that will allow me to get the voltages within .5 of each other per the manual.  I don't understand why that should matter since they all are connected with AC SYNC cables but it might be the problem.  Who knows? I've run into another problem fwiw.  We're trying to charge a NiFe battery bank at 66 VDC.  The SCP and the inverters show a hi batt voltage warning sometimes and even go in to fault sometimes.  That's supposed to happen at 68VDC.  I've never seen that on my Fluke 187 or on the SCP.  It's tough enough to get it to 66v.  I may have seen it @ 66.5 but never 68.  Does anyone know what the real programmed HBCO is for these inverters because it's definitely not 68.  Just wondering if anyone else has found a solution.  Inverters shutting on HBCO is not a really cool feature. On the 80/600 Charge controllers I've gotten a weird error, something like HiFastOCErr.  It's supposed to be when the CC is putting out over 140 amps DC for more than 5 seconds.  It stops the CC from charging which is also not a cool feature.  No way of course it's putting out 140 amps or even close.  Anyone know what this really means?  I'm guessing that it means the CC is putting out more than 4800 watts.  I set the Percent Charge to 90% just to see if that helps.  72 amps X 66 VDC is just under 4800 so we'll see if it works. I'll try to make a post of all the errors and ommisions I find on the XW+ and Connext gear I'm working on, especially if I figure out how the gear actually works and what the error/fault/warnings really mean. Thanks very much for writing, I really appreciate it.  Sorry for the slow response to comments today - comm issues. Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. > From: greg egan > To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem > > The XW+ inverters are selling to > each other.? XW+'s are disconnected from the load and from generator > input.? System is off grid.? When I switch the ATS the inverters are > supposed to pick up the load.? ~ 12 kW, maybe 18 worst case.? They are > selling to each other and when I make the switch the lights flicker and > the inverters go off, then they try to go on, and go off, etc. > > Sync cables are hooked up.? 4 XW+ and 1 SCP on one xanbus network. No > gateway hooked up at this time.? PV will be on it's own Xbus network.? > Not planning on using the Gateway if I can help it. > > Thanks for any light you can shed on this.? Not sure why Schneider would > ever want their inverters to sell to each other > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:30:13 -0700 > From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > To: "RE-wrenches" > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem > Message-ID: <03332e63e95983efcc841f3a8a579ed4 at 127.0.0.1> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > If they are selling you need to verify that grid support > is off!. There are so many settings that interact. By default it was. > > I > will ask, these are old units right? Did they ever work right? Is the > firmware the same on all and do they have different ID numbers for the > network? You may try going back to defaults. There really is not enough > info in your post to go further. > > XW+ are out of support for US split phase > and replaced with XWP about a year back. How old are they? > > If it were me, > I would make sure that 2 of the units work correctly first. Take all other > xw's off xanbus/Sync and test. > Good Luck ! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid > Solar > "we go where powerlines > don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail > offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > ------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 15:46:36 -0500 > From: Maverick Brown > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem > Message-ID: <604448C0-3EE2-461F-B5EE-D7382E229FDA at mavericksolar.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > It?s a good idea to make sure only one set as Master the others are slave. Start by adding one slave at a time. Turn off Search, Charger and Grid Support until you know they are playing happy. > > I prefer using the XW Config and walking through the wizard, but you can use Multi Unit setup, which will put everything in standby. I have several 8-12 unit XW sites 3-4 Inverters, SCP, AGS and Combox/ Gateway, etc. > > It can be done. > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > ? Solar Commander Remote Power > ? SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 09:45:19 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 09:45:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] J Box adhesive failure. Message-ID: I have a customer with two TOP racks of 8 Astropower 140’s and one panel has a j box that separated from the backing sheet but the wires are still connected. I’ve tried several adhesives but they eventually give up. The house was just sold and an inspector is coming To check out the house. Owner is sure that this loose box will be found by the inspector and jinx the sale. Anybody know of a super adhesive that will hold up? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 09:53:18 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 07:53:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] J Box adhesive failure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82BDB0A8-6906-41C7-9D72-528B84D6998E@gmail.com> Hi John RTV sealant or VHB tape. Jay Peltz power. > On Jun 13, 2021, at 7:45 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > I have a customer with two TOP racks of 8 Astropower 140’s and one panel has a j box that separated from the backing sheet but the wires are still connected. I’ve tried several adhesives but they eventually give up. The house was just sold and an inspector is coming To check out the house. Owner is sure that this loose box will be found by the inspector and jinx the sale. Anybody know of a super adhesive that will hold up? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From danbob88 at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 09:56:00 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 07:56:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] J Box adhesive failure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John; Have you tried a UV-setting cyanoacrylate? There are some available that cure into a pliable but very strong (and thick) clear layer. If you just have one J-box to do, a tube of "UV Wader Repair" from your local flyfishing shop might do the trick. It cures quickly in direct sunlight, or with a small UV flashlight. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 7:45 AM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > I have a customer with two TOP racks of 8 Astropower 140’s and one panel > has a j box that separated from the backing sheet but the wires are still > connected. I’ve tried several adhesives but they eventually give up. The > house was just sold and an inspector is coming To check out the house. > Owner is sure that this loose box will be found by the inspector and jinx > the sale. Anybody know of a super adhesive that will hold up? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jun 13 10:10:50 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 07:10:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem In-Reply-To: <1a8b4c1d-f13f-1b76-d8fc-1fb791710c4d@remotepowerinc.com> References: <1a8b4c1d-f13f-1b76-d8fc-1fb791710c4d@remotepowerinc.com> Message-ID: <000ddad2581bf4b3f8c381288ee9a23e@127.0.0.1> Hi Greg, XW+ is supported until warranty runs out. After that Schneider will still be of help on it if you are a registered installer. XW+ is still sold new in the 230vac version outside NA. There is one memory board in XW+ that was improved for XW pro for grid apps. It will not be hard to find someone who works on them in the secondary market. That said, in my opinion XW just keeps working once installed correctly and does not need the secondary market for repair like Outback does. The config tool is great as I do not need a network at some clients homes, and it is excel based for logging. I would measure each inverters AC. If it is more than 2 volts different, for offgid app, I would say that is not your problem. You never stated if the firmware was up to date and the same on each inverter? I stopped reading your post after that because that could be the problem. Network, AC power, DC power need to be installed in raceways as per the manual. MPPT's have had firmware updated for a few things. Good Luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 21:52:09 -0800, greg egan wrote: > Dave and Maverick, > > Thanks for the info.  Dave, > > - Grid support is off.  Was never on. > - inverters were purchased in Sep 2019.  Installed and turned off in Sep > 2020.  Finishing installation now. > - they worked a few days ago.  sometimes they sell to each other, > sometimes they don't.  Last I looked they were behaving. > - all named differently > - are they really no longer supported?  if so it begs the question, how > long will anything SE sells be supported? > > Maverick, > > - only one master > - I may go adding them one at a time if they start selling to each other > again.  It MAY be that when I lay the SCP down sometimes I'm laying it > too close to the Batt cables and maybe there's some noise generated on > the line?  who knows. > > Since you like the config tool, do you know how to set the voltages so > they're all the same?  It seems like you're supposed to make the > inverter you want to adjust the output voltage on,  you're supposed to > make that inverter the master.  When I try (even with all the other > inverters off) the inverter gives me a fault and shuts off.  I forget > the F- number but it's like a naming conflict fault of some sort. > > I'm thinking of trying to > - kill power to all the inverters. > - erase anything in the SCP if I can figure out how. > - disconnect all CAT 5 cables from the inverters except the cable to the > SCP and the end plug for the one I'm working on. > I'm hoping that MAYBE that will allow me to get the voltages within .5 > of each other per the manual.  I don't understand why that should matter > since they all are connected with AC SYNC cables but it might be the > problem.  Who knows? > > I've run into another problem fwiw.  We're trying to charge a NiFe > battery bank at 66 VDC.  The SCP and the inverters show a hi batt > voltage warning sometimes and even go in to fault sometimes.  That's > supposed to happen at 68VDC.  I've never seen that on my Fluke 187 or on > the SCP.  It's tough enough to get it to 66v.  I may have seen it @ 66.5 > but never 68.  Does anyone know what the real programmed HBCO is for > these inverters because it's definitely not 68.  Just wondering if > anyone else has found a solution.  Inverters shutting on HBCO is not a > really cool feature. > > On the 80/600 Charge controllers I've gotten a weird error, something > like HiFastOCErr.  It's supposed to be when the CC is putting out over > 140 amps DC for more than 5 seconds.  It stops the CC from charging > which is also not a cool feature.  No way of course it's putting out 140 > amps or even close.  Anyone know what this really means?  I'm guessing > that it means the CC is putting out more than 4800 watts.  I set the > Percent Charge to 90% just to see if that helps.  72 amps X 66 VDC is > just under 4800 so we'll see if it works. > > I'll try to make a post of all the errors and ommisions I find on the > XW+ and Connext gear I'm working on, especially if I figure out how the > gear actually works and what the error/fault/warnings really mean. > > Thanks very much for writing, I really appreciate it.  Sorry for the > slow response to comments today - comm issues. > > Greg Egan > Remote Power Inc. >> From: greg egan >> To: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem >> >> The XW+ inverters are selling to >> each other.? XW+'s are disconnected from the load and from generator >> input.? System is off grid.? When I switch the ATS the inverters are >> supposed to pick up the load.? ~ 12 kW, maybe 18 worst case.? They are >> selling to each other and when I make the switch the lights flicker and >> the inverters go off, then they try to go on, and go off, etc. >> >> Sync cables are hooked up.? 4 XW+ and 1 SCP on one xanbus network. No >> gateway hooked up at this time.? PV will be on it's own Xbus network.? >> Not planning on using the Gateway if I can help it. >> >> Thanks for any light you can shed on this.? Not sure why Schneider would >> ever want their inverters to sell to each other >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:30:13 -0700 >> From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> To: "RE-wrenches" >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem >> Message-ID: <03332e63e95983efcc841f3a8a579ed4 at 127.0.0.1> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >> If they are selling you need to verify that grid support >> is off!. There are so many settings that interact. By default it was. >> >> I >> will ask, these are old units right? Did they ever work right? Is the >> firmware the same on all and do they have different ID numbers for the >> network? You may try going back to defaults. There really is not enough >> info in your post to go further. >> >> XW+ are out of support for US split phase >> and replaced with XWP about a year back. How old are they? >> >> If it were me, >> I would make sure that 2 of the units work correctly first. Take all >> other >> xw's off xanbus/Sync and test. >> Good Luck ! >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid >> Solar >> "we go where powerlines >> don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail >> offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> >> ------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2021 15:46:36 -0500 >> From: Maverick Brown >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 4 XW+ 6848 with AC Coupling problem >> Message-ID: <604448C0-3EE2-461F-B5EE-D7382E229FDA at mavericksolar.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> It?s a good idea to make sure only one set as Master the others are >> slave. Start by adding one slave at a time. Turn off Search, Charger and >> Grid Support until you know they are playing happy. >> >> I prefer using the XW Config and walking through the wizard, but you can >> use Multi Unit setup, which will put everything in standby. I have >> several 8-12 unit XW sites 3-4 Inverters, SCP, AGS and Combox/ Gateway, >> etc. >> >> It can be done. >> >> Maverick Brown >> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 >> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. >> ? Solar Commander Remote Power >> ? SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection >> maverick at mavericksolar.com >> 512-460-9825 >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Sun Jun 13 11:28:37 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 08:28:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol-ark In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E8EF11A-CCB2-40C6-B87A-2BD5019056FF@villagepowerdesign.com> Yes indeed Jay. You’ll find the Sol -Ark is easily programmable and flexible to do all you describe. There is No-sell select that Is achieved with CTs sensing current at the grid interface. There are also a “ Limit sell to Home” and “Limit sell to Load” modes (that can be concurrent with the no sell toggle). so you can control power flow no matter whether you wire the output to whole house panel or to critical loads sub panel. Hope that helps! Best Jeff C. Village Power Design Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 12, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I just reread that manual today to design a new system and I believe it will do exactly what you want. There is a grid-no sell mode. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > >> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 3:22 PM jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I have an application that I think is perfect for the sol-ark but wanted to check to see if it will actually do exactly what the customer wants. I”m pretty sure it can but just wanted to make sure. >> >> Hes on grid, but cannot sell solar back to the grid, and no not hawaii. >> >> System would be: >> DC coupled >> battery based >> grid connected for buying as needed but not selling >> >> >> He wants to do: >> >> 1. self consumption of main panel >> 2. charge batteries for battery back up of some loads: ie sub panel >> 3. generator backup >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> jay >> >> Peltz Power >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Sun Jun 13 11:31:43 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 10:31:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol-ark In-Reply-To: <0E8EF11A-CCB2-40C6-B87A-2BD5019056FF@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <0E8EF11A-CCB2-40C6-B87A-2BD5019056FF@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <20244435-04CF-475F-B84C-9236A15B5808@mavericksolar.com> And…. The CTs are included with the inverter. You’ll need to extend the leads to reach the main panel or sub panel. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jun 13, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Yes indeed Jay. You’ll find the Sol -Ark is easily programmable and flexible to do all you describe. There is No-sell select that Is achieved with CTs sensing current at the grid interface. There are also a “ Limit sell to Home” and “Limit sell to Load” modes (that can be concurrent with the no sell toggle). so you can control power flow no matter whether you wire the output to whole house panel or to critical loads sub panel. > > Hope that helps! > > Best > > Jeff C. > Village Power Design > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Jun 12, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>  >> I just reread that manual today to design a new system and I believe it will do exactly what you want. There is a grid-no sell mode. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >>> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 3:22 PM jay wrote: >>> HI All, >>> >>> I have an application that I think is perfect for the sol-ark but wanted to check to see if it will actually do exactly what the customer wants. I”m pretty sure it can but just wanted to make sure. >>> >>> Hes on grid, but cannot sell solar back to the grid, and no not hawaii. >>> >>> System would be: >>> DC coupled >>> battery based >>> grid connected for buying as needed but not selling >>> >>> >>> He wants to do: >>> >>> 1. self consumption of main panel >>> 2. charge batteries for battery back up of some loads: ie sub panel >>> 3. generator backup >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> jay >>> >>> Peltz Power >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sun Jun 13 11:40:40 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 11:40:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dial torque wrench for S-5 Clamps Message-ID: Does anyone have a good recommendation for an easy to use model on the roof? My cheap one finally broke and it was hard to read anyway. Or should I bite the bullet and get a calibrated impact driver? Or both? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Sun Jun 13 20:51:34 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 17:51:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dial torque wrench for S-5 Clamps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1A512A6A-B7B1-4B2D-B7FB-51638188F313@me.com> I’ve been liking the Proto torque wrench I purchased from Zoro a couple years back. I often wrap the head in masking tape to protect the roofing finish when torquing S-5 clamps due to the limited distance you end up with to the finish roof material especially if the standing seam is tilted at an acute angle on set screw side. I use the same wrench for the Ironridge clamps. Also, surely you’re specific to which clamp you’re selecting but there’s definitely a few clamps that are more universal than others and when the roof profile allows I always select the S-5-N over some of the others. That little return profile hook is key to a successful bite without trying to walk up as it tightens. I see it has also been improved again with an angled set screw to eliminate the tilted seam headache I spoke about above. Bonus! Nick > On Jun 13, 2021, at 8:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Does anyone have a good recommendation for an easy to use model on the roof? My cheap one finally broke and it was hard to read anyway. > > Or should I bite the bullet and get a calibrated impact driver? > > Or both? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 20:53:14 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 19:53:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dial torque wrench for S-5 Clamps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, If you're looking to bite any bullets, a contractor recently alerted me to Makita torque control nut runners . I know they ain't cheap, but they're very handy for consistent repetitive torquing tasks (e.g., commercial flat roof racking assembly). I never imagined I would see a hand tool with an onboard USB port and application software! -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:40 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Does anyone have a good recommendation for an easy to use model on the > roof? My cheap one finally broke and it was hard to read anyway. > > Or should I bite the bullet and get a calibrated impact driver? > > Or both? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Jun 14 09:22:35 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 09:22:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dial torque wrench for S-5 Clamps In-Reply-To: <1A512A6A-B7B1-4B2D-B7FB-51638188F313@me.com> References: <1A512A6A-B7B1-4B2D-B7FB-51638188F313@me.com> Message-ID: Yes, the angled set screw is a huge help. We use a lot of S-5-S and S-5-U here, but S-5-N is becoming more popular. It boils down to a combination of the "right" clamp and which one has load test results. Some seams accommodate multiple clamp types. On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 8:51 PM Nick A Lucchese wrote: > I’ve been liking the Proto torque wrench > I > purchased from Zoro a couple years back. I often wrap the head in masking > tape to protect the roofing finish when torquing S-5 clamps due to the > limited distance you end up with to the finish roof material especially if > the standing seam is tilted at an acute angle on set screw side. I use the > same wrench for the Ironridge clamps. Also, surely you’re specific to which > clamp you’re selecting but there’s definitely a few clamps that are more > universal than others and when the roof profile allows I always select the > S-5-N over some of the others. That little return profile hook is key to a > successful bite without trying to walk up as it tightens. I see it has also > been improved again with an angled set screw to eliminate the tilted seam > headache I spoke about above. Bonus! > > Nick > > > > On Jun 13, 2021, at 8:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Does anyone have a good recommendation for an easy to use model on the > roof? My cheap one finally broke and it was hard to read anyway. > > Or should I bite the bullet and get a calibrated impact driver? > > Or both? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex at sunforgellc.com Mon Jun 14 10:08:57 2021 From: alex at sunforgellc.com (Alex MeVay) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 10:08:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] J Box adhesive failure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John, I like polyurethanes for this sort of thing. They are substantially stronger than RTV, and if you need to re-do it, you won't be left with that oily texture that nothing else will stick to. "3M Marine Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4000 UV" might be a good choice, and Sikaflex also makes some really good options. One downside is that even the "fast cure" polyurethanes cure rather slowly. If you go with RTV, look for a "neutral cure" type. Others typically off-gas acetic acid when they cure, which can corrode wiring. Good luck, Alex MeVay Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 14 10:42:19 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 07:42:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] J Box adhesive failure. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8735e28760e9e2919c3e51ed64cd25d2@127.0.0.1> Agree with All that Alex wrote! I will add that most of my clients are extreme rural and remote. I have been using a sealent that they can get in small town hardware store for 5 years now. It is by Lock-tite and is polyurethane. It takes a day to skin over. It is water tight as soon as it goes on for a JB. It is made for roof and flashing and holds up in the sun. Not expensive and is pretty amazing at the many other uses. It can repair just about any plastic/rubber that is cracked. It needs to be sealed with a 5" bolt to preserve the tube after it is open. It will not last more than a week or so without it. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 10:08:57 -0400, Alex MeVay wrote: > Hi John, > > I like polyurethanes for this sort of thing. They are substantially > stronger than RTV, and if you need to re-do it, you won't be left with > that oily texture that nothing else will stick to. "3M Marine > Adhesive Sealant Fast Cure 4000 UV" might be a good choice, and > Sikaflex also makes some really good options. One downside is that > even the "fast cure" polyurethanes cure rather slowly. > > If you go with RTV, look for a "neutral cure" type. Others typically > off-gas acetic acid when they cure, which can corrode wiring. > > Good luck, > > Alex MeVay > > Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jun 14 11:53:06 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 08:53:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? In-Reply-To: <6bda0449fbf9a0030bc827a0b91a578c@redwoodalliance.org> References: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> <728bbaed-ecba-8c6b-4b72-9ce6dd51f463@villagelab.net> <4fdb89df-b258-b9b0-97b6-fea22e7579f5@villagepowerdesign.com> <6bda0449fbf9a0030bc827a0b91a578c@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <73c2a47d-59dd-7ce3-dbe4-5b3ce3f25a9f@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Drake, So it's simply a momentary bypass circuit from the Load side to the Line side of your Main Inverter Breaker.  So from battery side of inverter to momentary on-off switch to resistor to inverter side of breaker. I used a 25 Ohm 50 watt resistor.this one and this nice metal screw-terminal momentary on-off switch this one With a Magnum MS4024 PAE on a 10 KWH LiFePO4 pack - when I push the switch initially about 2 amps flows - I've found I need to hold it for about 8 seconds for the current to drop off to about .4 amps - then when I flip the 175 AMP main DC inverter breaker - there is little additional current that flows into the inverter caps - no sparks and my BMS doesn't shut down due to overcurrent fault. Hope that helps! Best, Jeff > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > > June 11, 2021 at 12:27 PM > > > Hello Jeff, > > That sounds really useful. How do you wire this? Where do you get the > momentary switch? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > --- > > > On 2021-06-09 12:13, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > >>> Hey Dave and Wrenches, >>> >>> This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's >>> and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A >>> momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of >>> parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps >>> and battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many >>> LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a >>> must on many systems. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> >>> >>> palumbo131m at gmail.com >>> June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM >>> >> Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? >> >> It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical >> small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was >> accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. >> >> Dave Palumbo >> >> Hyde Park, VT >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > Jeff Clearwater > June 9, 2021 at 9:13 AM > Hey Dave and Wrenches, > > This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and > other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A > momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of > parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and > battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many LiFePO4 > BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on > many systems. > > Best, > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jeff Clearwater > June 9, 2021 at 9:12 AM > Hey Dave and Wrenches, > > This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and > other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A > momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of > parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and > battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many LiFePO4 > BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on > many systems. > > Best, > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > > palumbo131m at gmail.com > June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM > > Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? > > It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small > spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied > by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Mon Jun 14 12:01:08 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 09:01:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? In-Reply-To: <73c2a47d-59dd-7ce3-dbe4-5b3ce3f25a9f@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> <728bbaed-ecba-8c6b-4b72-9ce6dd51f463@villagelab.net> <4fdb89df-b258-b9b0-97b6-fea22e7579f5@villagepowerdesign.com> <6bda0449fbf9a0030bc827a0b91a578c@redwoodalliance.org> <73c2a47d-59dd-7ce3-dbe4-5b3ce3f25a9f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: oh and of course I put an inline fuse in the circuit. The current that flows of course will be dependent on battery voltage and resistor ohms.  So with a 48 VDC pack you could go up in resistance - just figure per ohm - volt - amp formulas/calculator here. With less than 5 amps - you'll get a nice ramp up fill of your caps on most inverters we use in the industry. Hope that helps! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design > Jeff Clearwater > June 14, 2021 at 8:53 AM > Hi Drake, > > So it's simply a momentary bypass circuit from the Load side to the > Line side of your Main Inverter Breaker.  So from battery side of > inverter to momentary on-off switch to resistor to inverter side of > breaker. > > I used a 25 Ohm 50 watt resistor.this one > > > and this nice metal screw-terminal momentary on-off switch this one > > > With a Magnum MS4024 PAE on a 10 KWH LiFePO4 pack - when I push the > switch initially about 2 amps flows - I've found I need to hold it for > about 8 seconds for the current to drop off to about .4 amps - then > when I flip the 175 AMP main DC inverter breaker - there is little > additional current that flows into the inverter caps - no sparks and > my BMS doesn't shut down due to overcurrent fault. > > Hope that helps! > > Best, > > Jeff > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org > > June 11, 2021 at 12:27 PM > > > Hello Jeff, > > That sounds really useful. How do you wire this? Where do you get the > momentary switch? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > --- > > > On 2021-06-09 12:13, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > >>> Hey Dave and Wrenches, >>> >>> This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's >>> and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A >>> momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of >>> parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps >>> and battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many >>> LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a >>> must on many systems. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater >>> Village Power Design >>> >>> >>> palumbo131m at gmail.com >>> June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM >>> >> Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? >> >> It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical >> small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was >> accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. >> >> Dave Palumbo >> >> Hyde Park, VT >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > Jeff Clearwater > June 9, 2021 at 9:13 AM > Hey Dave and Wrenches, > > This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and > other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A > momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of > parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and > battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many LiFePO4 > BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on > many systems. > > Best, > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jeff Clearwater > June 9, 2021 at 9:12 AM > Hey Dave and Wrenches, > > This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and > other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS.  A > momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of > parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and > battery BMS.  I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW.  Many LiFePO4 > BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on > many systems. > > Best, > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > > > > palumbo131m at gmail.com > June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM > > Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? > > It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small > spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied > by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. > > Dave Palumbo > > Hyde Park, VT > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Mon Jun 14 12:19:13 2021 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 10:19:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hail damage Message-ID: <007c01d76139$049a7320$0dcf5960$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: Does anyone have a pair of the Sharp ND-240 QCJ modules; how about six of the Kyocera 175GTs? If so, please feel free to contact me off list. Best, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 17:15:54 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:15:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex question Message-ID: Does anyone have or know where I can get the pump curves with voltages? I’m trying to limit flow by lowering the voltage, which I know works, but I can’t find the output vs voltage charts. And does anyone know if Lorentz is still active in the USA? The last time i checked their controller had the ability for flow/speed adjustment. Thanks jay peltz power From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jun 15 18:16:24 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:16:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been using this one for too many years. You need more than this Jay? https://www.pumpsok.com/sites/pumpsok/uploads/documents/water_systems/flexnew.pdf My dealer stopped selling Lornetz and not sure why? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:15:54 -0600, jay wrote: > Does anyone have or know where I can get the pump curves with voltages? > > I’m trying to limit flow by lowering the voltage, which I know works, but > I can’t find the output vs voltage charts. > > And does anyone know if Lorentz is still active in the USA? > The last time i checked their controller had the ability for flow/speed > adjustment. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 20:04:10 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 17:04:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Grundfus used to have flow vs voltage charts per pump On Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 3:34 PM jay wrote: > Does anyone have or know where I can get the pump curves with voltages? > > I’m trying to limit flow by lowering the voltage, which I know works, but > I can’t find the output vs voltage charts. > > And does anyone know if Lorentz is still active in the USA? > The last time i checked their controller had the ability for flow/speed > adjustment. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Tue Jun 15 22:54:47 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:54:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <487dcf7b-c422-dc96-8b24-dc6899eb1fe9@coveoregon.com> Jay, Running a Grundfos pump on low voltage also means running it on limited input power (the current can't/won't exceed a certain amount). It is easy to end up with a pump that won't operate all of the time, or only for a limited amount of hours every day. A pump that has a speed control is a better choice; it will operate more reliably and for more hours every day. Lorentz pumps are still available in the U.S.  The new controller doesn't have the speed adjustment built in, but there is an option to order a speed adjustment for the controller. The speed can also be adjusted with a smart phone app. I believe that your distributor for Lorentz Pumps is GenPro Energy Solutions. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 6/15/2021 2:15 PM, jay wrote: > Does anyone have or know where I can get the pump curves with voltages? > > I’m trying to limit flow by lowering the voltage, which I know works, but I can’t find the output vs voltage charts. > > And does anyone know if Lorentz is still active in the USA? > The last time i checked their controller had the ability for flow/speed adjustment. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Jun 15 23:12:27 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 20:12:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18C7E520-A206-4A30-9FDF-F9726F520FDA@me.com> This one? > On Jun 15, 2021, at 2:15 PM, jay wrote: > > Does anyone have or know where I can get the pump curves with voltages? > > I’m trying to limit flow by lowering the voltage, which I know works, but I can’t find the output vs voltage charts. > > And does anyone know if Lorentz is still active in the USA? > The last time i checked their controller had the ability for flow/speed adjustment. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Grundfos SQFlex efficiency vs voltage.png Type: image/png Size: 54851 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 23:14:34 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 21:14:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery Message-ID: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> A fellow installer sent me this just now. The battery wasn’t working, 5v. He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. Fortunately no one was injured. Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding Jay Peltz power. > >  > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0911.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 190327 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jun 16 00:39:27 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 21:39:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> References: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <417dd5e5-661c-51cc-5e36-04fdd846341a@psln.com> Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up"  I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing.  Temperature? charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........             You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: > A fellow installer sent me this just now. > The battery wasn’t working, 5v. > He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. > Fortunately no one was injured. > > Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? > > And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding > > Jay > Peltz power. >>  >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Jun 16 02:00:22 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 23:00:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: <417dd5e5-661c-51cc-5e36-04fdd846341a@psln.com> References: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> <417dd5e5-661c-51cc-5e36-04fdd846341a@psln.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. As for recycling - first is health safety!  I'd suggest he contact the manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess.  Will Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit.  You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know better for that specific model. Hope that helps! Jeff C. Village Power Design > frenergy > June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM > > Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up"  I would even > know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its > something a manufacturer should be doing.  Temperature? charge rate? > recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a > conductor?........ > >             You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just > right. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay > June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM > A fellow installer sent me this just now. > The battery wasn’t working, 5v. > He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. > Fortunately no one was injured. > > Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? > > And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 06:51:18 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 06:51:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jay, Lorentz still has two people in texas. I can’t find an active dealer but they do provide excellent tech support 24/7. I have to buy from a dealer but the ones that I have called only get one if specified on a new well they are drilling. They didn’t know much about them. John B On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 5:34 PM jay wrote: > Does anyone have or know where I can get the pump curves with voltages? > > I’m trying to limit flow by lowering the voltage, which I know works, but > I can’t find the output vs voltage charts. > > And does anyone know if Lorentz is still active in the USA? > The last time i checked their controller had the ability for flow/speed > adjustment. > > Thanks > > jay > > peltz power > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 08:57:57 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 06:57:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery Message-ID: <98038CEC-5CA8-4A27-8D08-2B6A2A7F9D34@gmail.com>  Hi Bill I guess the photo I included didn’t work. I’ll try again as it shows the battery model etc. this is a 300 amp hr 48v Relion that has fasteners to remove the top. The volts were 5vdc, and had been working that day. It’s inside, in a relatively cool, sub 85f condition, dry space. Age is pretty new but no specs on that. As to over under charge voltage, rate the BMS is supposed to take care of that. No contacts or cables were touched or disconnected prior to top removal. And in the photo is clear that it’s designed such that top install removal won’t touch any conductors or batteries. I’m under no illusions that everything we do or work with is safe. My comment is based in that I continue to hear that LFP can’t fail and explode. Something in there did. And I’m pretty sure electronics such as a Bms doesn’t have anything in it that could explode like This. I’ll try again to send the photo. > On Jun 15, 2021, at 10:37 PM, frenergy wrote: >  > Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ > > You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: >> A fellow installer sent me this just now. >> The battery wasn’t working, 5v. >> He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. >> Fortunately no one was injured. >> >> Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? >> >> And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dddcf698-d060-4d8e-8e05-162c88d4c896.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 190327 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 09:01:31 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 07:01:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] grundfos SQFlex question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0129DFD5-B464-4C12-A105-47DE242DD566@gmail.com> It’s too bad that Lorentz has come and gone a few times. I do like the architecture with the electronics all at the surface. And that the old ones had a easy manual speed control. The property has a sqflex in another well so I’ll just work on some options to get the flow as close as I can for The customer. Thanks everyone for all the advice and info Jay > On Jun 16, 2021, at 4:51 AM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > >  > Jay, > Lorentz still has two people in texas. I can’t find an active dealer but they do provide excellent tech support 24/7. I have to buy from a dealer but the ones that I have called only get one if specified on a new well they are drilling. They didn’t know much about them. > > John B > >> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 5:34 PM jay wrote: >> Does anyone have or know where I can get the pump curves with voltages? >> >> I’m trying to limit flow by lowering the voltage, which I know works, but I can’t find the output vs voltage charts. >> >> And does anyone know if Lorentz is still active in the USA? >> The last time i checked their controller had the ability for flow/speed adjustment. >> >> Thanks >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 10:33:17 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 07:33:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> References: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: What battery is it? On Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 8:14 PM Jay wrote: > A fellow installer sent me this just now. > The battery wasn’t working, 5v. > He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. > Fortunately no one was injured. > > Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? > > And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > >  > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 10:39:29 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:39:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For some reason the photo isn’t showing up Pls email me and I will email you photos Jay.peltz at gmail.com Jay > On Jun 16, 2021, at 8:33 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > What battery is it? > > >> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 8:14 PM Jay wrote: >> A fellow installer sent me this just now. >> The battery wasn’t working, 5v. >> He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. >> Fortunately no one was injured. >> >> Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? >> >> And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> > >> >  >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 16 11:01:13 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:01:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> References: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I sill have a few blown 200A fuses from the LG RESU10 48 v test here. They look nasty BTW. Not just open but blown open! How were the rest of the batteries Jay? Curious how they were charged as that is usually the killer. Too much solar or a big charger over 100 ADC? When we recycle, LFP still goes to the Waste Management commercial site. Guard gates and looks like a prison from the highway near Kettleman City. A real in the middle of nowhere town. I would like any info on recycling. I do not think there is much that is reliable or responsible. It was bad before C19 and I do not see much going on in California. EPA is useless for this in my experience. These folks below will only take 300+ pounds of lithium ion. Anybody used them? https://www.globaltechenvironmental.com/pricing-sheet/?gclid=CjwKCAjwwqaGBhBKEiwAMk-FtHSAOf3YhL2mOheiPOI1YP8ueU2FjyLRdBHFLSXge8PmbQ73IpEIjxoCtf0QAvD_BwE Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 21:14:34 -0600, Jay wrote: > A fellow installer sent me this just now. > The battery wasn't working, 5v. > He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. > Fortunately no one was injured. > > Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? > > And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding > > Jay > Peltz power. >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 16 11:01:38 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:01:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32d6ca11a7ad7bc007d79c2b304b805d@127.0.0.1> I saw both of them! --- Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:39:29 -0600, Jay wrote: For some reason the photo isn't showing up Pls email me and I will email you photos Jay.peltz at gmail.com Jay On Jun 16, 2021, at 8:33 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: What battery is it? On Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 8:14 PM Jay wrote: A fellow installer sent me this just now. The battery wasn't working, 5v. He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. Fortunately no one was injured. Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding Jay Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [9] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [10] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [4] http://re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Jun 16 14:07:41 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 11:07:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> <417dd5e5-661c-51cc-5e36-04fdd846341a@psln.com> Message-ID: <74EE199D-5392-4C19-BA77-994DCDC2022C@starlightsolar.com> Damaged Li battery safety, For information only. Our procedure to decommission any suspect failed LFP cell is to apply small load (<0.05C) until all electrochemical energy is removed. This should preferably be done in a safe area outside. After full discharge, physically damage the cell terminals so it can not find it’s way back into service. No stored energy the battery means you just have a container with various elements like Aluminum, copper, lithium, graphite and so forth. See MSDS your battery. Unfortunately, carriers still consider this a Li battery and apply UN hazmat shipping rules. For now, we are storing cells until recycling is cost effective for us. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 15, 2021, at 11:00 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jay, So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. As for recycling - first is health safety! I'd suggest he contact the manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess. Will Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit. You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know better for that specific model. Hope that helps! Jeff C. Village Power Design > frenergy June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM > Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ > > You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: > -- > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM > A fellow installer sent me this just now. > The battery wasn’t working, 5v. > He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. > Fortunately no one was injured. > > Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? > > And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 15:22:04 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 13:22:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: <02464120-FF10-415A-917E-699D4C6EA8FC@gmail.com> <417dd5e5-661c-51cc-5e36-04fdd846341a@psln.com> Message-ID: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> Hi Jeff, I don’t know if you saw the photo. No cutting involved. The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. jay > On Jun 16, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. > > As for recycling - first is health safety! I'd suggest he contact the manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess. Will Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit. You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know better for that specific model. > > Hope that helps! > > Jeff C. > Village Power Design > >> frenergy June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM >> Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ >> >> You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: >> -- >> >> >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Jay June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM >> A fellow installer sent me this just now. >> The battery wasn’t working, 5v. >> He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. >> Fortunately no one was injured. >> >> Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? >> >> And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Jun 16 16:11:14 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 13:11:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> Message-ID: https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus these folks are seriously getting into recycling lithium batteries, setting up house out by the Tesla giga factory out east of Reno. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: jay Date: 6/16/21 12:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Jeff Clearwater , Jeff Clearwater , RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery Hi Jeff,I don’t know if you saw the photo.  No cutting involved.The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners.  No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover.jayOn Jun 16, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:Hey Jay,So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads.As for recycling - first is health safety!  I'd suggest he contact the manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess.  Will Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit.  You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know better for that specific model.Hope that helps!Jeff C.Village Power Designfrenergy June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PMVery few details...What does it mean "he opened it up"  I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing.  Temperature?  charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........            You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right.BillFeather River Solar Electric  Bill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.netOn 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote:-- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com_______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.orgJay June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PMA fellow installer sent me this just now. The battery wasn’t working, 5v. He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. Fortunately no one was injured. Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling?And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries explodingJayPeltz power. _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org_______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Thu Jun 17 07:20:18 2021 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:20:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vehicle to Grid Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Have any of you looked into Vehicle to Grid systems and how they will play with existing solar installation. I have residential customers asking questions about how we ensure that our installation is compatible with these systems. I've seen announcements from Ford, Nissan, and Mitsubishi on their planned releases. With Kind Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (mobile) 513.766.6025 (office) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 07:23:07 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> References: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: This just proves the weak link is the BMS. I had the honor of replacing the BMS in that exact model in a stack of 3 batteries. Luckily it was on the bottom shelf so I could pull the monster out onto the floor to get access to the lid. The lid is sealed shut but with persistence it opened. I was working with their tech support and following their instructions. I disconnected it from the other two that were in a parallel configuration before opening. Battery voltage was zero at the terminals. I did voltage checks at various checkpoints to confirm it was the BMS at fault. Relion sent a new BMS which I carefully installed and it has worked fine since. Had I seen this photo first, I may have not been so eager to see the inside of that battery. John Blittersdorf On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:13 PM Chris Worcester wrote: > https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus > these folks are seriously getting into recycling lithium batteries, > setting up house out by the Tesla giga factory out east of Reno. > > > > Chris Worcester > chris at solarwindworks.com > 530-448-9692 > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: jay > Date: 6/16/21 12:49 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: Jeff Clearwater , Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com>, RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery > > Hi Jeff, > > I don’t know if you saw the photo. No cutting involved. > The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. > No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. > > jay > > On Jun 16, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > > Hey Jay, > > So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely > that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. > > As for recycling - first is health safety! I'd suggest he contact the > manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess. Will > Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the > manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit. > You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know > better for that specific model. > > Hope that helps! > > Jeff C. > Village Power Design > > frenergy > > June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM > > Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know > how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a > manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage > history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ > > You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just > right. > > Bill > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: > -- > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jay > > June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM > A fellow installer sent me this just now. > The battery wasn’t working, 5v. > He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. > Fortunately no one was injured. > > Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? > > And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Thu Jun 17 09:41:36 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 09:41:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch Message-ID: Wrenches, I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V to the transfer switch? Thank you, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jun 17 09:47:53 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 09:47:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rick, I have a similar situation with a GE transfer switch, but am curious to hear what others have to say. My assumption was that the switch transfers based on loss of 240V from the grid. But I believe (at least with the GE generator) that the transfer switch sends a two wire start signal to the inverter when the transfer switch loses the 240V signal. My plan was to rewire that start signal to the Sol-Ark inverter, but keep the transfer switch as the main service point to prevent any kind of backfeeding to the grid. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com < rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer > switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) > capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. > Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V > to the transfer switch? > > Thank you, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Dave Tedeyan, PE* [image: Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 09:49:07 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 06:49:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Venerac does have a two wire start programming option on their 22 k, may be in there, On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 6:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com < rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer > switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) > capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. > Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V > to the transfer switch? > > Thank you, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 17 09:50:08 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 06:50:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vehicle to Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95ef2dc22594b6f6b07177f143f5bb88@127.0.0.1> If you are talking about chargers for electric vehicles, we even do that offgrid and it is just basic system design. If you are talking about using the electric vehicle to power the house, you would run into safety of the battery, Insurance for the house, and the building code for each area. Many in California want to see UL9540 for home battery installation. Also many/most car batteries a type NMC lithium and not the typical LFP that are stationary and probably safer for a home. UL 9540 safety standard for Energy Storage Systems UL 9540 simplifies the design and installation approval process Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:20:18 -0400, Carl Adams wrote: Hello Wrenches, Have any of you looked into Vehicle to Grid systems and how they will play with existing solar installation. I have residential customers asking questions about how we ensure that our installation is compatible with these systems. I've seen announcements from Ford, Nissan, and Mitsubishi on their planned releases. With Kind Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (mobile) 513.766.6025 (office) Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 17 10:01:34 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:01:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> Message-ID: <47c7ebe90793a690cdff141a8dfbdc71@127.0.0.1> My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters were not set right or charge limits for the battery were too high. The other way to kill LFP is large loads exceeding the battery max discharge current. Closing the loop eliminates just about all of those issues. It brings the battery into the safety area of LA batteries that are still hard to beat offgrid. I am not saying you can't blow the top off a LA battery either Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400, John Blittersdorf wrote: This just proves the weak link is the BMS. I had the honor of replacing the BMS in that exact model in a stack of 3 batteries. Luckily it was on the bottom shelf so I could pull the monster out onto the floor to get access to the lid. The lid is sealed shut but with persistence it opened. I was working with their tech support and following their instructions. I disconnected it from the other two that were in a parallel configuration before opening. Battery voltage was zero at the terminals. I did voltage checks at various checkpoints to confirm it was the BMS at fault. Relion sent a new BMS which I carefully installed and it has worked fine since. Had I seen this photo first, I may have not been so eager to see the inside of that battery. John Blittersdorf On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:13 PM Chris Worcester wrote: https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus [4] these folks are seriously getting into recycling lithium batteries, setting up house out by the Tesla giga factory out east of Reno. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com [5] 530-448-9692 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message -------- From: jay Date: 6/16/21 12:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Jeff Clearwater , Jeff Clearwater , RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery Hi Jeff, I don't know if you saw the photo. No cutting involved. The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. jay On Jun 16, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jay, So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. As for recycling - first is health safety! I'd suggest he contact the manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess. Will Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit. You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know better for that specific model. Hope that helps! Jeff C. Village Power Design frenergy [11] June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. [12] Taylorsville, CA 95983 [13] 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [14] On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: -- ------------------------- [15] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com [16] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [17] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [18] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [20] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] List rules "> Jay [24] June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM A fellow installer sent me this just now. The battery wasn't working, 5v. He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. Fortunately no one was injured. Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [25] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [26] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 10:07:25 2021 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:07:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <809B2EFF-1045-4EFC-B647-6504352203F9@gmail.com> Rick, On most of their home standby models, Generac defeats the two wire start capability in programming and ships them set up to auto-start on a loss of utility power only. On most of these models with the Evolution or Nexus controller there is a way to re-program them for two-wire start capability. This involves entering a password on the generator controller and selecting the two-wire start option. One also has to install the start trigger wires into the controller plug, so Generac sells a kit with the wires and programming instructions for two-wire start. It’s hard to find but out there. Note that Generac standby generators are set up so that the generator controller senses the utility loss and a trigger signal is then sent to the transfer switch, whereas most other brands have the controls and utility loss sensing hardware in the transfer switch and the generator is triggered by a simple two-wire start signal from the transfer switch board. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant. NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 > On Jun 17, 2021, at 7:41 AM, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V to the transfer switch? > > Thank you, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jun 17 10:24:18 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:24:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vehicle to Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Carl - V2G (Vehicle to Grid) is one of the most exciting areas of technology coming down the pipes. It's easy to imagine a day where you can tap into ~100 kWh or more of storage sitting in your EV and benefit from bi-directional charging with PV. I'm trying to get my head wrapped around the standards and how the technology will likely roll out. Here is an article that explains some of the basics: https://blog.wallbox.com/why-bidirectional-charging-is-the-next-big-thing-for-ev-owners/ I think we're at the mercy of the manufacturers to come out with products that we can then work with. Ford apparently is teaming up with SunRun to install what must be a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) and inverter for the F150 Lightning. Other manufacturers will likely follow suit. I know there's a lot of work going into the standards such as the CCS plug which has J1772 and Quick charge. The Chademo standard came out with V2G built into the standard, but apparently is falling out of favor. I'm a little out of the loop on all of this, but am trying to learn. The big question coming to mind that we should all be thinking about is whether permanently installed Energy Storage Systems (ESS) vs V2G makes more sense for our grid tied clients. Clearly there's not a whole lot we can do until products are available on the market. But in the next 5 years? There will be a lot of change. Tesla seems to be sticking with the permanently installed ESS route with their Powerwall system. Ford really let the cat out of the bag with their F150 Lightning announcement. Exciting time ahead! August Luminalt On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:20 AM Carl Adams wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > Have any of you looked into Vehicle to Grid systems and how they will play > with existing solar installation. I have residential customers asking > questions about how we ensure that our installation is compatible with > these systems. I've seen announcements from Ford, Nissan, and Mitsubishi > on their planned releases. > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Thu Jun 17 11:01:08 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:01:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: <47c7ebe90793a690cdff141a8dfbdc71@127.0.0.1> References: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <47c7ebe90793a690cdff141a8dfbdc71@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I have to agree... the gasses that come out of these cells can still be flammable... My guess is the settings were too high, or a cell or two were already in thermal runaway, causing internal gassing. When the cover was pulled off that gas found an Ignition source and ignited. Inverter and charge controllers all have relays in them and every time they switch you can ignite flammable gasses if the concentration is enough. This is why it's always very important to make sure the room that any battery is installed in is properly ventilated, especially when you are working in said room. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 7:01 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters were > not set right or charge limits for the battery were too high. The other way > to kill LFP is large loads exceeding the battery max discharge current. > > Closing the loop eliminates just about all of those issues. It brings the > battery into the safety area of LA batteries that are still hard to beat > offgrid. I am not saying you can't blow the top off a LA battery either[image: > Wink] > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400, John Blittersdorf < > john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > > This just proves the weak link is the BMS. > I had the honor of replacing the BMS in that exact model in a stack of 3 > batteries. Luckily it was on the bottom shelf so I could pull the monster > out onto the floor to get access to the lid. The lid is sealed shut but > with persistence it opened. I was working with their tech support and > following their instructions. I disconnected it from the other two that > were in a parallel configuration before opening. Battery voltage was zero > at the terminals. I did voltage checks at various checkpoints to confirm it > was the BMS at fault. Relion sent a new BMS which I carefully installed and > it has worked fine since. Had I seen this photo first, I may have not been > so eager to see the inside of that battery. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:13 PM Chris Worcester > wrote: > >> https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus >> these folks are seriously getting into recycling lithium batteries, >> setting up house out by the Tesla giga factory out east of Reno. >> >> >> >> Chris Worcester >> chris at solarwindworks.com >> 530-448-9692 >> >> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: jay >> Date: 6/16/21 12:49 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: Jeff Clearwater , Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com>, RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> I don't know if you saw the photo. No cutting involved. >> The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. >> No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. >> >> jay >> >> On Jun 16, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Jeff Clearwater < >> jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: >> >> Hey Jay, >> >> So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely >> that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. >> >> As for recycling - first is health safety! I'd suggest he contact the >> manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess. Will >> Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the >> manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit. >> You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know >> better for that specific model. >> >> Hope that helps! >> >> Jeff C. >> Village Power Design >> >> frenergy >> >> June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM >> >> Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know >> how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a >> manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage >> history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ >> >> You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just >> right. >> >> Bill >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: >> -- >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> [image: Avast logo] >> >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> Jay >> >> June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM >> A fellow installer sent me this just now. >> The battery wasn't working, 5v. >> He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. >> Fortunately no one was injured. >> >> Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? >> >> And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 11:05:55 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:05:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vehicle to Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Would you use the gas in your car to run your genny till empty, much the same, l remember talking about this years ago and I do not recommend doing this, I dont know of any utilities that would alo that. I work in Hawaii and California when we have a PSPS the last thing you want to do is not be able to leave if you have to because you kept the refer cold, its smokey and you have no recharge-ability. Jerry On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:24 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Carl - > > V2G (Vehicle to Grid) is one of the most exciting areas of technology > coming down the pipes. It's easy to imagine a day where you can tap into > ~100 kWh or more of storage sitting in your EV and benefit from > bi-directional charging with PV. I'm trying to get my head wrapped around > the standards and how the technology will likely roll out. Here is an > article that explains some of the basics: > > > https://blog.wallbox.com/why-bidirectional-charging-is-the-next-big-thing-for-ev-owners/ > > I think we're at the mercy of the manufacturers to come out with products > that we can then work with. Ford apparently is teaming up with SunRun to > install what must be a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) and inverter for > the F150 Lightning. Other manufacturers will likely follow suit. I know > there's a lot of work going into the standards such as the CCS plug which > has J1772 and Quick charge. The Chademo standard came out with V2G built > into the standard, but apparently is falling out of favor. I'm a little out > of the loop on all of this, but am trying to learn. > > The big question coming to mind that we should all be thinking about is > whether permanently installed Energy Storage Systems (ESS) vs V2G makes > more sense for our grid tied clients. Clearly there's not a whole lot we > can do until products are available on the market. But in the next 5 years? > There will be a lot of change. Tesla seems to be sticking with the > permanently installed ESS route with their Powerwall system. Ford really > let the cat out of the bag with their F150 Lightning announcement. Exciting > time ahead! > > August > Luminalt > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:20 AM Carl Adams > wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> Have any of you looked into Vehicle to Grid systems and how they will >> play with existing solar installation. I have residential customers >> asking questions about how we ensure that our installation is compatible >> with these systems. I've seen announcements from Ford, Nissan, and >> Mitsubishi on their planned releases. >> >> With Kind Regards >> Carl Adams, President >> SunRock Solar, LLC >> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >> 513.766.6025 (office) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 17 11:06:10 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:06:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have the same question. I assumed an ATS would transfer upon utility loss, but I'm learning that some do not transfer until the generator starts up. I'm wondering how this works with Sol-Arks given their schematics that use ATS in multi-inverter setups for whole home backup (with no generator involved). Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 9:48 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi Rick, > I have a similar situation with a GE transfer switch, but am curious to > hear what others have to say. My assumption was that the switch transfers > based on loss of 240V from the grid. But I believe (at least with the GE > generator) that the transfer switch sends a two wire start signal to the > inverter when the transfer switch loses the 240V signal. My plan was to > rewire that start signal to the Sol-Ark inverter, but keep the transfer > switch as the main service point to prevent any kind of backfeeding to the > grid. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com < > rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer >> switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) >> capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. >> Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V >> to the transfer switch? >> >> Thank you, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> Office: 540.235.3095 >> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Dave Tedeyan, PE* > [image: Sungineer Solar] > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Jun 17 11:34:00 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:34:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vehicle to Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry - there are some key difference between V2G with PV and fuel based vehicles and generators. Mainly, the V2G would allow the home to stay on when the grid goes down and thus keep the PV system running. The PV system could then power the home and charge the vehicle. All of this can be controlled and setup in a way that allows plenty of reserve capacity in the vehicle for getting out of dodge. It's not ready for primetime yet, but it is coming. August On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 8:06 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Would you use the gas in your car to run your genny till empty, much the > same, l remember talking about this years ago and I do not recommend doing > this, I dont know of any utilities that would alo that. I work in Hawaii > and California when we have a PSPS the last thing you want to do is not be > able to leave if you have to because you kept the refer cold, its smokey > and you have no recharge-ability. > Jerry > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:24 AM August Goers wrote: > >> Hi Carl - >> >> V2G (Vehicle to Grid) is one of the most exciting areas of technology >> coming down the pipes. It's easy to imagine a day where you can tap into >> ~100 kWh or more of storage sitting in your EV and benefit from >> bi-directional charging with PV. I'm trying to get my head wrapped around >> the standards and how the technology will likely roll out. Here is an >> article that explains some of the basics: >> >> >> https://blog.wallbox.com/why-bidirectional-charging-is-the-next-big-thing-for-ev-owners/ >> >> I think we're at the mercy of the manufacturers to come out with products >> that we can then work with. Ford apparently is teaming up with SunRun to >> install what must be a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) and inverter for >> the F150 Lightning. Other manufacturers will likely follow suit. I know >> there's a lot of work going into the standards such as the CCS plug which >> has J1772 and Quick charge. The Chademo standard came out with V2G built >> into the standard, but apparently is falling out of favor. I'm a little out >> of the loop on all of this, but am trying to learn. >> >> The big question coming to mind that we should all be thinking about is >> whether permanently installed Energy Storage Systems (ESS) vs V2G makes >> more sense for our grid tied clients. Clearly there's not a whole lot we >> can do until products are available on the market. But in the next 5 years? >> There will be a lot of change. Tesla seems to be sticking with the >> permanently installed ESS route with their Powerwall system. Ford really >> let the cat out of the bag with their F150 Lightning announcement. Exciting >> time ahead! >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:20 AM Carl Adams >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> Have any of you looked into Vehicle to Grid systems and how they will >>> play with existing solar installation. I have residential customers >>> asking questions about how we ensure that our installation is compatible >>> with these systems. I've seen announcements from Ford, Nissan, and >>> Mitsubishi on their planned releases. >>> >>> With Kind Regards >>> Carl Adams, President >>> SunRock Solar, LLC >>> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >>> 513.766.6025 (office) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 11:35:06 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 09:35:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, you need to have a transfer switch with its own brain that doesn't need the generator controller to decide which source to latch to. A good example of this is the Kohler line of transfer switches: The RXT line of transfer switches needs the RDC2 controller (in the generator) to actually switch to the secondary source and back (this can be hacked of course). The RDT line of switches can be independent and work well for these applications. Most transfer switches will switch to the neutral position upon loss of utility but need an energized secondary source to latch into the secondary position. You do pay more for the transfer switches with the independent brain but it's worth not needing to provide added control signalling. On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I have the same question. I assumed an ATS would transfer upon utility > loss, but I'm learning that some do not transfer until the generator starts > up. I'm wondering how this works with Sol-Arks given their schematics that > use ATS in multi-inverter setups for whole home backup (with no generator > involved). > > Jason Szumlanski > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 9:48 AM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > >> Hi Rick, >> I have a similar situation with a GE transfer switch, but am curious to >> hear what others have to say. My assumption was that the switch transfers >> based on loss of 240V from the grid. But I believe (at least with the GE >> generator) that the transfer switch sends a two wire start signal to the >> inverter when the transfer switch loses the 240V signal. My plan was to >> rewire that start signal to the Sol-Ark inverter, but keep the transfer >> switch as the main service point to prevent any kind of backfeeding to the >> grid. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com < >> rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer >>> switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) >>> capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. >>> Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V >>> to the transfer switch? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >> [image: Sungineer Solar] >> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Cell: 607-288-2898 >> www.sungineersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 17 11:49:53 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:49:53 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wish Sol-Ark would better document this and/or have a list of suitable options. Details are minimal. Short of getting these things in your hands it's hard to tell from documentation alone how it will all play nice together. Better yet - how about a 12k inverter with 200A pass through/xfer capability! On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 11:35 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Yes, you need to have a transfer switch with its own brain that doesn't > need the generator controller to decide which source to latch to. > > A good example of this is the Kohler line of transfer switches: > > The RXT line of transfer switches needs the RDC2 controller (in the > generator) to actually switch to the secondary source and back (this can be > hacked of course). > The RDT line of switches can be independent and work well for these > applications. > > Most transfer switches will switch to the neutral position upon loss of > utility but need an energized secondary source to latch into the secondary > position. > > You do pay more for the transfer switches with the independent brain but > it's worth not needing to provide added control signalling. > > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:06 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I have the same question. I assumed an ATS would transfer upon utility >> loss, but I'm learning that some do not transfer until the generator starts >> up. I'm wondering how this works with Sol-Arks given their schematics that >> use ATS in multi-inverter setups for whole home backup (with no generator >> involved). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 9:48 AM Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Rick, >>> I have a similar situation with a GE transfer switch, but am curious to >>> hear what others have to say. My assumption was that the switch transfers >>> based on loss of 240V from the grid. But I believe (at least with the GE >>> generator) that the transfer switch sends a two wire start signal to the >>> inverter when the transfer switch loses the 240V signal. My plan was to >>> rewire that start signal to the Sol-Ark inverter, but keep the transfer >>> switch as the main service point to prevent any kind of backfeeding to the >>> grid. >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com < >>> rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer >>>> switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) >>>> capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. >>>> Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V >>>> to the transfer switch? >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> Office: 540.235.3095 >>>> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE* >>> [image: Sungineer Solar] >>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> Cell: 607-288-2898 >>> www.sungineersolar.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 17 12:11:30 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 09:11:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Friends: I dislike jury-rigging a generator loss-of-grid start signal to a two-wire start. If the inverters need to be shut down for service or happen to shut down on their own, the generator will start. Not a good design. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Jun 17, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >  > Hi Rick, > I have a similar situation with a GE transfer switch, but am curious to hear what others have to say. My assumption was that the switch transfers based on loss of 240V from the grid. But I believe (at least with the GE generator) that the transfer switch sends a two wire start signal to the inverter when the transfer switch loses the 240V signal. My plan was to rewire that start signal to the Sol-Ark inverter, but keep the transfer switch as the main service point to prevent any kind of backfeeding to the grid. > Cheers, > Dave > >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V to the transfer switch? >> >> Thank you, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> Office: 540.235.3095 >> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Dave Tedeyan, PE > > 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 > Cell: 607-288-2898 > www.sungineersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 13:55:35 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:55:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <47c7ebe90793a690cdff141a8dfbdc71@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: HI All, The cover never got all the way off before it was blown off, it was just started to be opened, so no way there was an external ignition source. If it was an explosion it was all from internal components except for possibly some O2 coming from the outside. My other question still hasn’t been answered. If the BMS isn’t taking care of over/under voltage and over current what is it doing to prevent damage to the battery? ( this system was within the input PV or output inverter watts/amps of the battery specifications) And I just found out that on the day of failure, no one has been living there for months and only a grundfos SQFlex and a few lights were on, no big loads. Now maybe I’ve been under the false understanding that this is the primary job of the BMS? Yes I know that there is also cell balancing, % monitoring, blue tooth, wifi etc that can be included in the BMS but to me thats all secondary. Hopefully someone can clear this up for me. jay > On Jun 17, 2021, at 9:01 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > > I have to agree... the gasses that come out of these cells can still be flammable... My guess is the settings were too high, or a cell or two were already in thermal runaway, causing internal gassing. When the cover was pulled off that gas found an Ignition source and ignited. > > Inverter and charge controllers all have relays in them and every time they switch you can ignite flammable gasses if the concentration is enough. > > This is why it's always very important to make sure the room that any battery is installed in is properly ventilated, especially when you are working in said room. > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <> <> <> <> > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 7:01 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > wrote: > My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters were not set right or charge limits for the battery were too high. The other way to kill LFP is large loads exceeding the battery max discharge current. > > Closing the loop eliminates just about all of those issues. It brings the battery into the safety area of LA batteries that are still hard to beat offgrid. I am not saying you can't blow the top off a LA battery either > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400, John Blittersdorf > wrote: > >> This just proves the weak link is the BMS. >> I had the honor of replacing the BMS in that exact model in a stack of 3 batteries. Luckily it was on the bottom shelf so I could pull the monster out onto the floor to get access to the lid. The lid is sealed shut but with persistence it opened. I was working with their tech support and following their instructions. I disconnected it from the other two that were in a parallel configuration before opening. Battery voltage was zero at the terminals. I did voltage checks at various checkpoints to confirm it was the BMS at fault. Relion sent a new BMS which I carefully installed and it has worked fine since. Had I seen this photo first, I may have not been so eager to see the inside of that battery. >> >> John Blittersdorf >> >> On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:13 PM Chris Worcester > wrote: >> https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus >> these folks are seriously getting into recycling lithium batteries, setting up house out by the Tesla giga factory out east of Reno. >> >> >> >> Chris Worcester >> chris at solarwindworks.com >> 530-448-9692 >> >> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: jay > >> Date: 6/16/21 12:49 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: Jeff Clearwater >, Jeff Clearwater >, RE-wrenches > >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> I don't know if you saw the photo. No cutting involved. >> The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. >> No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. >> >> jay >> >>> On Jun 16, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: >>> >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. >>> >>> As for recycling - first is health safety! I'd suggest he contact the manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess. Will Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit. You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know better for that specific model. >>> >>> Hope that helps! >>> >>> Jeff C. >>> Village Power Design >>> >>> frenergy June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM >>> Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ >>> >>> You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> www.avast.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Jay June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM >>> A fellow installer sent me this just now. >>> The battery wasn't working, 5v. >>> He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. >>> Fortunately no one was injured. >>> >>> Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? >>> >>> And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 17 14:11:06 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:11:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <47c7ebe90793a690cdff141a8dfbdc71@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <6e0bb6b98b879d07b1a8223128f82d21@127.0.0.1> Maybe the BMS was never tested by Relion for all of the possible failure modes? Maybe it was tested and it got thru QC. I know very little about this company. Do they meet the standards like, manufacturing facilities are fully certified to ISO 9001/14001 and OSHA 18001 standards. Meets UL 9540 CERTIFICATION STANDARDS * IEC 62133 * UL 1973 * UL 2271 * CE * UN 38.3 Not trying to be a pain either Jay. You know the LFP I use! Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:55:35 -0600, jay wrote: HI All, The cover never got all the way off before it was blown off, it was just started to be opened, so no way there was an external ignition source. If it was an explosion it was all from internal components except for possibly some O2 coming from the outside. My other question still hasn't been answered. If the BMS isn't taking care of over/under voltage and over current what is it doing to prevent damage to the battery? ( this system was within the input PV or output inverter watts/amps of the battery specifications) And I just found out that on the day of failure, no one has been living there for months and only a grundfos SQFlex and a few lights were on, no big loads. Now maybe I've been under the false understanding that this is the primary job of the BMS? Yes I know that there is also cell balancing, % monitoring, blue tooth, wifi etc that can be included in the BMS but to me thats all secondary. Hopefully someone can clear this up for me. jay On Jun 17, 2021, at 9:01 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: I have to agree... the gasses that come out of these cells can still be flammable... My guess is the settings were too high, or a cell or two were already in thermal runaway, causing internal gassing. When the cover was pulled off that gas found an Ignition source and ignited. Inverter and charge controllers all have relays in them and every time they switch you can ignite flammable gasses if the concentration is enough. This is why it's always very important to make sure the room that any battery is installed in is properly ventilated, especially when you are working in said room. [4] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] ------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------- On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 7:01 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters were not set right or charge limits for the battery were too high. The other way to kill LFP is large loads exceeding the battery max discharge current. Closing the loop eliminates just about all of those issues. It brings the battery into the safety area of LA batteries that are still hard to beat offgrid. I am not saying you can't blow the top off a LA battery either Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [12] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [13] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400, John Blittersdorf wrote: This just proves the weak link is the BMS. I had the honor of replacing the BMS in that exact model in a stack of 3 batteries. Luckily it was on the bottom shelf so I could pull the monster out onto the floor to get access to the lid. The lid is sealed shut but with persistence it opened. I was working with their tech support and following their instructions. I disconnected it from the other two that were in a parallel configuration before opening. Battery voltage was zero at the terminals. I did voltage checks at various checkpoints to confirm it was the BMS at fault. Relion sent a new BMS which I carefully installed and it has worked fine since. Had I seen this photo first, I may have not been so eager to see the inside of that battery. John Blittersdorf On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:13 PM Chris Worcester wrote: https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus [16] these folks are seriously getting into recycling lithium batteries, setting up house out by the Tesla giga factory out east of Reno. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com [17] 530-448-9692 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message -------- From: jay Date: 6/16/21 12:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Jeff Clearwater , Jeff Clearwater , RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery Hi Jeff, I don't know if you saw the photo. No cutting involved. The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. jay On Jun 16, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jay, So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. As for recycling - first is health safety! I'd suggest he contact the manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess. Will Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit. You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know better for that specific model. Hope that helps! Jeff C. Village Power Design frenergy [23] June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. [24] Taylorsville, CA 95983 [25] 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [26] On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: -- ------------------------- [27] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com [28] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [29] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [32] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] List rules "> Jay [36] June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM A fellow installer sent me this just now. The battery wasn't working, 5v. He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. Fortunately no one was injured. Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [37] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [38] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [39] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From nathanjstumpff at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 15:37:13 2021 From: nathanjstumpff at gmail.com (Nathan J. Stumpff) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 12:37:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Substitute for Bussman PVS-R-200 fuse? Message-ID: Wrenches, I’ve checked every cross-manufacturer table I could find and have found no exact equivalent for this fuse, which presently has an extremely long lead time from manufacturer. Any chance anyone has had the same issue and found something that works? Or some existing stock you’d be willing to sell? The fuse is needed for an old school Solectria SGI central inverter. Thanks, -Nathan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 15:54:14 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:54:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a Generac dealer, I would say the right answer is "No". As in, don't use a Powerpact generator as a two wire start generator. The Powerpact are a glorified portable in a box. The Powerpact has to have constant power to maintain the battery and electronics. The generator powers the load center transfer mechanism. You can use a Guardian as a two wire start unit if you provide a 120V T1 for battery charging, but the Evolution controller has to be configured as two wire start. I do not believe the Powerpact has that feature as it does not have a configurable controller. Also, it invalidates the warranty. And, if you rig a relay and someone gets electrocuted, it's on you. Sometimes the best answer is no, you need to trade up to a better generator. On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com < rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer > switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) > capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. > Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V > to the transfer switch? > > Thank you, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 15:58:34 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:58:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And just like that, I found the instructions for two wire start of a Powerpact generator. https://rexel-cdn.com/Products/Generac/7109.pdf?i=3DE90BD8-3F92-4C63-A833-FEDC1C27B8F7 On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com < rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > Wrenches, > > I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer > switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) > capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. > Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V > to the transfer switch? > > Thank you, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Jun 17 19:03:56 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:03:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bricked Mate Message-ID: Friends: A client somehow managed to brick her Mate3. Anyone know how to resuscitate one of these? William Miller www.millersolar.com From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jun 17 20:01:23 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 17:01:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <47c7ebe90793a690cdff141a8dfbdc71@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <84eff0c0269d28f1b0a925443136ca16@127.0.0.1> I thought of a few more ways this could have happened. The installer over torqued the battery terminals. There was not SPD protection in the system and it got zapped and escalated. Working on SPD's now for a guy. He does not see the value and knows everything! Pretty hot out here in the West! 5PM ! Take care! Cheers! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe the BMS was never tested by Relion for all of the possible failure modes? Maybe it was tested and it got thru QC. I know very little about this company. Do they meet the standards like, manufacturing facilities are fully certified to ISO 9001/14001 and OSHA 18001 standards. Meets UL 9540 CERTIFICATION STANDARDS * IEC 62133 * UL 1973 * UL 2271 * CE * UN 38.3 Not trying to be a pain either Jay. You know the LFP I use! Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:55:35 -0600, jay wrote: HI All, The cover never got all the way off before it was blown off, it was just started to be opened, so no way there was an external ignition source. If it was an explosion it was all from internal components except for possibly some O2 coming from the outside. My other question still hasn't been answered. If the BMS isn't taking care of over/under voltage and over current what is it doing to prevent damage to the battery? ( this system was within the input PV or output inverter watts/amps of the battery specifications) And I just found out that on the day of failure, no one has been living there for months and only a grundfos SQFlex and a few lights were on, no big loads. Now maybe I've been under the false understanding that this is the primary job of the BMS? Yes I know that there is also cell balancing, % monitoring, blue tooth, wifi etc that can be included in the BMS but to me thats all secondary. Hopefully someone can clear this up for me. jay On Jun 17, 2021, at 9:01 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: I have to agree... the gasses that come out of these cells can still be flammable... My guess is the settings were too high, or a cell or two were already in thermal runaway, causing internal gassing. When the cover was pulled off that gas found an Ignition source and ignited. Inverter and charge controllers all have relays in them and every time they switch you can ignite flammable gasses if the concentration is enough. This is why it's always very important to make sure the room that any battery is installed in is properly ventilated, especially when you are working in said room. [4] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] ------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------- On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 7:01 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters were not set right or charge limits for the battery were too high. The other way to kill LFP is large loads exceeding the battery max discharge current. Closing the loop eliminates just about all of those issues. It brings the battery into the safety area of LA batteries that are still hard to beat offgrid. I am not saying you can't blow the top off a LA battery either Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [12] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [13] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400, John Blittersdorf wrote: This just proves the weak link is the BMS. I had the honor of replacing the BMS in that exact model in a stack of 3 batteries. Luckily it was on the bottom shelf so I could pull the monster out onto the floor to get access to the lid. The lid is sealed shut but with persistence it opened. I was working with their tech support and following their instructions. I disconnected it from the other two that were in a parallel configuration before opening. Battery voltage was zero at the terminals. I did voltage checks at various checkpoints to confirm it was the BMS at fault. Relion sent a new BMS which I carefully installed and it has worked fine since. Had I seen this photo first, I may have not been so eager to see the inside of that battery. John Blittersdorf On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:13 PM Chris Worcester wrote: https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/recyclewithus [16] these folks are seriously getting into recycling lithium batteries, setting up house out by the Tesla giga factory out east of Reno. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com [17] 530-448-9692 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message -------- From: jay Date: 6/16/21 12:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Jeff Clearwater , Jeff Clearwater , RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery Hi Jeff, I don't know if you saw the photo. No cutting involved. The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. jay On Jun 16, 2021, at 12:00 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jay, So I don't believe ReLion batteries are openable - so it's most likely that when he decided to open it he cut into it and shorted the leads. As for recycling - first is health safety! I'd suggest he contact the manufacturer and get specific instructions for safing the mess. Will Prowess of DIY Solar Youtube channel had some leaky cells and the manufacturer sent specific instructions to contain and ship back the unit. You could contact him and he might know but the manufacturer might know better for that specific model. Hope that helps! Jeff C. Village Power Design frenergy [23] June 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM Very few details...What does it mean "he opened it up" I would even know how to do that with the L-ions I've been around, seems like its something a manufacturer should be doing. Temperature? charge rate? recent usage history? Age? Was it disconnected? Did contacts touch a conductor?........ You can probably get water to explode if you abuse it just right. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. [24] Taylorsville, CA 95983 [25] 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [26] On 6/15/2021 8:14 PM, Jay wrote: -- ------------------------- [27] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com [28] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [29] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [30] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [31] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [32] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [33] List rules "> Jay [36] June 15, 2021 at 8:14 PM A fellow installer sent me this just now. The battery wasn't working, 5v. He opened it up and it exploded when he opened it. The lid hit the roof. Fortunately no one was injured. Anyone know what to do with this? IE recycling? And just another example of non explosive lithium batteries exploding Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [37] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [38] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [39] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 20:38:36 2021 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 00:38:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: We have started doing away with the ATS all together. Generac recently released a FW code you can enter to indicate to the generator you want it to Start/Stop with 2-wire configuration. A generator that size I would feed directly into the SolArk and let the SolArk Start/Stop function. This will increase the "Up Time" of the inverter as it will always have a secondary power source it can call on when there's a low SOC. Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 9:11:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch Friends: I dislike jury-rigging a generator loss-of-grid start signal to a two-wire start. If the inverters need to be shut down for service or happen to shut down on their own, the generator will start. Not a good design. William Miller www.millersolar.com On Jun 17, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote:  Hi Rick, I have a similar situation with a GE transfer switch, but am curious to hear what others have to say. My assumption was that the switch transfers based on loss of 240V from the grid. But I believe (at least with the GE generator) that the transfer switch sends a two wire start signal to the inverter when the transfer switch loses the 240V signal. My plan was to rewire that start signal to the Sol-Ark inverter, but keep the transfer switch as the main service point to prevent any kind of backfeeding to the grid. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com > wrote: Wrenches, I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V to the transfer switch? Thank you, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Tedeyan, PE [Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 20:40:27 2021 From: spaceshipnelson1 at gmail.com (MiJo Nels) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 00:40:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hey Rick, are your loads in this scenario not all behind the SolArk (and already capable of all no-back feed scenarios including zero export?) Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: MiJo Nels Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 5:38:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch We have started doing away with the ATS all together. Generac recently released a FW code you can enter to indicate to the generator you want it to Start/Stop with 2-wire configuration. A generator that size I would feed directly into the SolArk and let the SolArk Start/Stop function. This will increase the "Up Time" of the inverter as it will always have a secondary power source it can call on when there's a low SOC. Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 9:11:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch Friends: I dislike jury-rigging a generator loss-of-grid start signal to a two-wire start. If the inverters need to be shut down for service or happen to shut down on their own, the generator will start. Not a good design. William Miller www.millersolar.com On Jun 17, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote:  Hi Rick, I have a similar situation with a GE transfer switch, but am curious to hear what others have to say. My assumption was that the switch transfers based on loss of 240V from the grid. But I believe (at least with the GE generator) that the transfer switch sends a two wire start signal to the inverter when the transfer switch loses the 240V signal. My plan was to rewire that start signal to the Sol-Ark inverter, but keep the transfer switch as the main service point to prevent any kind of backfeeding to the grid. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com > wrote: Wrenches, I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V to the transfer switch? Thank you, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dave Tedeyan, PE [Sungineer Solar] 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 Cell: 607-288-2898 www.sungineersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 21:51:45 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 18:51:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vehicle to Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: August have seen it work, sure but l have had customer loose power after three days of smoke filled sky, no regen and l have the same customers with EV's then what no escape if the killed the car too. I understand all of it, we did testing in Hawaii and here in California, in a hail Mary, use what you got but as a NOP no, Ford is going to try it out, we will see how bad RTE really is. You might think to just use the battery for peak shaving, now you need to understand cycle life in your ROI when its getting several more cycles in a given week vs possible reduction in travel distance on a full charge over time vs cost to replace said battery due to excessive cycling. Like l said yes it can be done but we have very good stationary battery tech so why. But hey that just my opinion Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 8:34 AM August Goers wrote: > Jerry - there are some key difference between V2G with PV and fuel based > vehicles and generators. Mainly, the V2G would allow the home to stay on > when the grid goes down and thus keep the PV system running. The PV system > could then power the home and charge the vehicle. All of this can be > controlled and setup in a way that allows plenty of reserve capacity in the > vehicle for getting out of dodge. It's not ready for primetime yet, but it > is coming. > > August > > > > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 8:06 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Wrenches >> Would you use the gas in your car to run your genny till empty, much the >> same, l remember talking about this years ago and I do not recommend doing >> this, I dont know of any utilities that would alo that. I work in Hawaii >> and California when we have a PSPS the last thing you want to do is not be >> able to leave if you have to because you kept the refer cold, its smokey >> and you have no recharge-ability. >> Jerry >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:24 AM August Goers wrote: >> >>> Hi Carl - >>> >>> V2G (Vehicle to Grid) is one of the most exciting areas of technology >>> coming down the pipes. It's easy to imagine a day where you can tap into >>> ~100 kWh or more of storage sitting in your EV and benefit from >>> bi-directional charging with PV. I'm trying to get my head wrapped around >>> the standards and how the technology will likely roll out. Here is an >>> article that explains some of the basics: >>> >>> >>> https://blog.wallbox.com/why-bidirectional-charging-is-the-next-big-thing-for-ev-owners/ >>> >>> I think we're at the mercy of the manufacturers to come out with >>> products that we can then work with. Ford apparently is teaming up with >>> SunRun to install what must be a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) and >>> inverter for the F150 Lightning. Other manufacturers will likely follow >>> suit. I know there's a lot of work going into the standards such as the CCS >>> plug which has J1772 and Quick charge. The Chademo standard came out with >>> V2G built into the standard, but apparently is falling out of favor. I'm a >>> little out of the loop on all of this, but am trying to learn. >>> >>> The big question coming to mind that we should all be thinking about is >>> whether permanently installed Energy Storage Systems (ESS) vs V2G makes >>> more sense for our grid tied clients. Clearly there's not a whole lot we >>> can do until products are available on the market. But in the next 5 years? >>> There will be a lot of change. Tesla seems to be sticking with the >>> permanently installed ESS route with their Powerwall system. Ford really >>> let the cat out of the bag with their F150 Lightning announcement. Exciting >>> time ahead! >>> >>> August >>> Luminalt >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:20 AM Carl Adams >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>> Have any of you looked into Vehicle to Grid systems and how they will >>>> play with existing solar installation. I have residential customers >>>> asking questions about how we ensure that our installation is compatible >>>> with these systems. I've seen announcements from Ford, Nissan, and >>>> Mitsubishi on their planned releases. >>>> >>>> With Kind Regards >>>> Carl Adams, President >>>> SunRock Solar, LLC >>>> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >>>> 513.766.6025 (office) >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Fri Jun 18 10:10:42 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 10:10:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43f41fef27e6473e429dff9dc0f8ea7e@redwoodalliance.org> I've controlled Generac Guardians, using the transfer switch and adding relays so the inverter decides when it should start. These were out of warranty units. Checking with Generac about a proposed new generator, I was told that it would void the warranty to do that. I was told that a new Generac is supposed to come our around the end of the year that can be controlled by an inverter. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional athens-electric.com [2] --- On 2021-06-17 09:41, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: > Wrenches, > > I'm looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V to the transfer switch? > > Thank you, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com [1] > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.SolShineEnergy.com [2] http://athens-electric.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Jun 18 10:20:17 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 07:20:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vehicle to Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jerry, You have good points, and I'm not pushing back on those. Dealing with long term outages during natural (or unnatural) disasters is a big challenge with tradeoffs on any route you go. Battery technology is improving rapidly and coming down in cost. If you have a 150 kWh battery in your EV in your driveway already connected to your home for charging purposes, wouldn't you want the flexibility of V2G to keep your home running during an outage? Heck, add a fossil fuel genny or stationary battery if you want. V2G isn't here yet, but it is coming and the possibilities are awesome. Getting back to Carl's initial question - how do we respond to potential clients who are trying to buy products now? Well, we offer the best choices on the market right now. Hopefully AC-coupling will allow EVs of the future to connect to PV systems through V2G. It's the classic question of whether someone should buy what is available now or wait for new technology. Grid tied PV is mature and works well. Now is a great time to go solar. ESS? Well, we're still in the early adopter phase for the newer gen lithium tech such as what Tesla, SolarEdge, Enphase, SunPower, Generac, etc are offering. Adoption rates for our customers are exceeding 50% pairing ESS with new PV systems. So far these systems are beating my expectations although they are challenging to design and build. But if the grid goes down for multiple days? It will be a mixed bag of some great success stories versus others running out of juice while the grid is still down. Nonetheless, it's a really exciting time to be in the PV and ESS business! August On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 6:52 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > August have seen it work, sure but l have had customer loose power after > three days of smoke filled sky, no regen and l have the same customers with > EV's then what no escape if the killed the car too. I understand all of it, > we did testing in Hawaii and here in California, in a hail Mary, use what > you got but as a NOP no, Ford is going to try it out, we will see how bad > RTE really is. You might think to just use the battery for peak shaving, > now you need to understand cycle life in your ROI when its getting several > more cycles in a given week vs possible reduction in travel distance on a > full charge over time vs cost to replace said battery due to excessive > cycling. Like l said yes it can be done but we have very good stationary > battery tech so why. But hey that just my opinion > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 8:34 AM August Goers wrote: > >> Jerry - there are some key difference between V2G with PV and fuel based >> vehicles and generators. Mainly, the V2G would allow the home to stay on >> when the grid goes down and thus keep the PV system running. The PV system >> could then power the home and charge the vehicle. All of this can be >> controlled and setup in a way that allows plenty of reserve capacity in the >> vehicle for getting out of dodge. It's not ready for primetime yet, but it >> is coming. >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 8:06 AM Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>> Wrenches >>> Would you use the gas in your car to run your genny till empty, much the >>> same, l remember talking about this years ago and I do not recommend doing >>> this, I dont know of any utilities that would alo that. I work in Hawaii >>> and California when we have a PSPS the last thing you want to do is not be >>> able to leave if you have to because you kept the refer cold, its smokey >>> and you have no recharge-ability. >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:24 AM August Goers wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Carl - >>>> >>>> V2G (Vehicle to Grid) is one of the most exciting areas of technology >>>> coming down the pipes. It's easy to imagine a day where you can tap into >>>> ~100 kWh or more of storage sitting in your EV and benefit from >>>> bi-directional charging with PV. I'm trying to get my head wrapped around >>>> the standards and how the technology will likely roll out. Here is an >>>> article that explains some of the basics: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://blog.wallbox.com/why-bidirectional-charging-is-the-next-big-thing-for-ev-owners/ >>>> >>>> I think we're at the mercy of the manufacturers to come out with >>>> products that we can then work with. Ford apparently is teaming up with >>>> SunRun to install what must be a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) and >>>> inverter for the F150 Lightning. Other manufacturers will likely follow >>>> suit. I know there's a lot of work going into the standards such as the CCS >>>> plug which has J1772 and Quick charge. The Chademo standard came out with >>>> V2G built into the standard, but apparently is falling out of favor. I'm a >>>> little out of the loop on all of this, but am trying to learn. >>>> >>>> The big question coming to mind that we should all be thinking about is >>>> whether permanently installed Energy Storage Systems (ESS) vs V2G makes >>>> more sense for our grid tied clients. Clearly there's not a whole lot we >>>> can do until products are available on the market. But in the next 5 years? >>>> There will be a lot of change. Tesla seems to be sticking with the >>>> permanently installed ESS route with their Powerwall system. Ford really >>>> let the cat out of the bag with their F150 Lightning announcement. Exciting >>>> time ahead! >>>> >>>> August >>>> Luminalt >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:20 AM Carl Adams >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>> Have any of you looked into Vehicle to Grid systems and how they will >>>>> play with existing solar installation. I have residential customers >>>>> asking questions about how we ensure that our installation is compatible >>>>> with these systems. I've seen announcements from Ford, Nissan, and >>>>> Mitsubishi on their planned releases. >>>>> >>>>> With Kind Regards >>>>> Carl Adams, President >>>>> SunRock Solar, LLC >>>>> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >>>>> 513.766.6025 (office) >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Fri Jun 18 11:05:23 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:05:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWWP - Whisper 200 Message-ID: <68270E31-E623-49AA-BF23-40669424E1B9@sunwindpowerinc.com> Anyone have a need for an unused Southwest Windpower Whisper 200 turbine head? There are no blades, nose cone, or controller. Contact me directly for more details and pics. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Fri Jun 18 11:21:11 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:21:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: <43f41fef27e6473e429dff9dc0f8ea7e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <43f41fef27e6473e429dff9dc0f8ea7e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I think you are confusing the transfer switch that can me controlled by the PWRcell inverter. All Guardians can be started by two wire control. It does not violate your warranty. When you start using relays in the transfer switch, that invalidates your warranty. On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 10:16 AM wrote: > I've controlled Generac Guardians, using the transfer switch and adding > relays so the inverter decides when it should start. These were out of > warranty units. Checking with Generac about a proposed new generator, I was > told that it would void the warranty to do that. I was told that a new > Generac is supposed to come our around the end of the year that can be > controlled by an inverter. > > Drake > > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > athens-electric.com > > > --- > > > > On 2021-06-17 09:41, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I'm looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer > switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) > capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. > Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V > to the transfer switch? > > Thank you, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > Office: 540.235.3095 > Mobile: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.tiff Type: image/tiff Size: 15860 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nponzio at buildingenergyus.com Fri Jun 18 11:41:02 2021 From: nponzio at buildingenergyus.com (Nik Ponzio, Building Energy) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:41:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] in search of 31" wide solar panel Message-ID: We need a single panel to replace a damaged unit in a very visible location. The original panel is a Panasonic HIT225 (circa 2013) with dimensions 62.2 x 31.4 x 1.8 in. The critical dimension is the width. I have about 4 inches to work with on the mounting rails, but can't go all the way up to a 40" wide panel. Ideally black-on-white, but this is less critical than dimensions. Any suggestions? Please respond off-list. -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 direct: 802-318-7003 nponzio at buildingenergyus.com http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Jun 18 11:55:48 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 08:55:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] in search of 31" wide solar panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Nik, I believe I have 1 new VBHN235SA06 (HIT 235S) in stock. I’ll contact our warehouse and have them do a hands on verification. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Jun 18, 2021, at 8:41 AM, Nik Ponzio, Building Energy wrote: We need a single panel to replace a damaged unit in a very visible location. The original panel is a Panasonic HIT225 (circa 2013) with dimensions 62.2 x 31.4 x 1.8 in. The critical dimension is the width. I have about 4 inches to work with on the mounting rails, but can't go all the way up to a 40" wide panel. Ideally black-on-white, but this is less critical than dimensions. Any suggestions? Please respond off-list. -- Nik Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 direct: 802-318-7003 nponzio at buildingenergyus.com http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com "Building Solutions for a Sustainable Future" From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jun 18 12:29:04 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 09:29:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: <84eff0c0269d28f1b0a925443136ca16@127.0.0.1> References: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <47c7ebe90793a690cdff141a8dfbdc71@127.0.0.1> <84eff0c0269d28f1b0a925443136ca16@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Hey Jay, So at the 4:35 mark of this quick review of available LFP batteries on the market at the time (2019) - Will Prowess states that "they (Relion) are the only battery that has a built-in battery heater (I think he was implying as standard equipment and not an option). Is it possible the battery heater circuit stuck on? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqQp2Xjr6U&t=372s Just a thought - not sure how you would go back and check that out though! Best, Jeff C. Village Power Design > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > June 17, 2021 at 5:01 PM > > I thought of a few more ways this could have happened. The installer > over torqued the battery terminals. There was not SPD protection in > the system and it got zapped and escalated. Working on SPD's now for a > guy. He does not see the value and knows everything!  Pretty hot out > here in the West!  5PM !  Take care! Cheers! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe the BMS was never tested by Relion for all of the possible failure > modes? Maybe it was tested and it got thru QC. > I know very little about > this company. Do they meet the standards like, > > manufacturing facilities > are fully certified to ISO 9001/14001 and OSHA 18001 standards. > > Meets UL > 9540 > > CERTIFICATION STANDARDS > > * IEC 62133 > * UL 1973 > * UL 2271 > * > CE > * UN 38.3 > > Not trying to be a pain either Jay. You know the LFP I use! > Good Luck! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:55:35 -0600, jay wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > jay > June 17, 2021 at 10:55 AM > HI All, > > The cover never got all the way off before it was blown off, it was > just started to be opened, so no way there was an external ignition > source.  If it was an explosion it was all from internal components > except for possibly some O2 coming from the outside. > > My other question still hasn’t been answered. > If the BMS isn’t taking care of over/under voltage and over current > what is it doing to prevent damage to the battery? > ( this system was within the input PV or output inverter watts/amps of > the battery specifications) And I just found out that on the day of > failure, no one has been living there for months and only a grundfos > SQFlex and a few lights were on, no big loads. > > Now maybe I’ve been under the false understanding that this is the > primary job of the BMS? > Yes I know that there is also cell balancing, % monitoring, blue > tooth, wifi etc that can be included in the BMS but to me thats all > secondary. > > Hopefully someone can clear this up for me. > > jay > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > June 17, 2021 at 7:01 AM > > My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters > were not set right or charge limits for the battery were too high. The > other way to kill LFP is large loads exceeding the battery max > discharge current. > > Closing the loop eliminates just about all of those issues. It brings > the battery into the safety area of LA batteries that are still hard > to beat offgrid. I am not saying you can't blow the top off a LA > battery eitherWink > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400, John Blittersdorf > wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > John Blittersdorf > June 17, 2021 at 4:23 AM > This just proves the weak link is the BMS. > I had the honor of replacing the BMS in that exact model in a stack of > 3 batteries.  Luckily it was on the bottom shelf so I could pull the > monster out onto the floor to get access to the lid.  The lid is > sealed shut but with persistence it opened.  I was working with their > tech support and following their instructions.  I disconnected it from > the other two that were in a parallel configuration before opening. > Battery voltage was zero at the terminals. I did voltage checks at > various checkpoints to confirm it was the BMS at fault. Relion sent a > new BMS which I carefully installed and it has worked fine since.  Had > I seen this photo first, I may have not been so eager to see the > inside of that battery. > > John Blittersdorf > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > jay > June 16, 2021 at 12:22 PM > Hi Jeff, > > I don’t know if you saw the photo.  No cutting involved. > The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. > No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. > > jay > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 635 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Jun 18 12:34:50 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 09:34:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding LFP battery In-Reply-To: References: <443CB0E1-01BE-43F6-8FBE-56BC80C72EFC@gmail.com> <20210616221257.83E4110880E@pdx1-mailman03.dreamhost.com> <47c7ebe90793a690cdff141a8dfbdc71@127.0.0.1> <84eff0c0269d28f1b0a925443136ca16@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <87e0a3f2-bd79-4c26-2262-09d09b99a70f@villagepowerdesign.com> Actually thinking of my last post - pretty unlikely the heater being on would coincide exactly with opening a battery that had gone to 5 V. But It strikes me that Relion would really want to get to the bottom of this - especially if they thought this story might spread and hurt their reputation - not to mention just ethical followup on a safety hazard! So If it were me I'd call Relion and let them know we (the Wrenches List) really wants to know what happened and their reputation is in question.  The fact they manufactured it - they are the ones to do the forensics on what happened - by analyzing the cells and conductors in a safe lab environment they can probably trace back where the short/overcurrent occured. Best, Jeff C. > Hey Jay, > > So at the 4:35 mark of this quick review of available LFP batteries on > the market at the time (2019) - Will Prowess states that "they > (Relion) are the only battery that has a built-in battery heater (I > think he was implying as standard equipment and not an option). > > Is it possible the battery heater circuit stuck on? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqQp2Xjr6U&t=372s > > Just a thought - not sure how you would go back and check that out though! > > Best, > > Jeff C. > Village Power Design > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > June 17, 2021 at 5:01 PM > > I thought of a few more ways this could have happened. The installer > over torqued the battery terminals. There was not SPD protection in > the system and it got zapped and escalated. Working on SPD's now for a > guy. He does not see the value and knows everything!  Pretty hot out > here in the West!  5PM !  Take care! Cheers! > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe the BMS was never tested by Relion for all of the possible failure > modes? Maybe it was tested and it got thru QC. > I know very little about > this company. Do they meet the standards like, > > manufacturing facilities > are fully certified to ISO 9001/14001 and OSHA 18001 standards. > > Meets UL > 9540 > > CERTIFICATION STANDARDS > > * IEC 62133 > * UL 1973 > * UL 2271 > * > CE > * UN 38.3 > > Not trying to be a pain either Jay. You know the LFP I use! > Good Luck! > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 11:55:35 -0600, jay wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > jay > June 17, 2021 at 10:55 AM > HI All, > > The cover never got all the way off before it was blown off, it was > just started to be opened, so no way there was an external ignition > source.  If it was an explosion it was all from internal components > except for possibly some O2 coming from the outside. > > My other question still hasn’t been answered. > If the BMS isn’t taking care of over/under voltage and over current > what is it doing to prevent damage to the battery? > ( this system was within the input PV or output inverter watts/amps of > the battery specifications) And I just found out that on the day of > failure, no one has been living there for months and only a grundfos > SQFlex and a few lights were on, no big loads. > > Now maybe I’ve been under the false understanding that this is the > primary job of the BMS? > Yes I know that there is also cell balancing, % monitoring, blue > tooth, wifi etc that can be included in the BMS but to me thats all > secondary. > > Hopefully someone can clear this up for me. > > jay > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > June 17, 2021 at 7:01 AM > > My .02 on this, and just a guess, the open loop charging parameters > were not set right or charge limits for the battery were too high. The > other way to kill LFP is large loads exceeding the battery max > discharge current. > > Closing the loop eliminates just about all of those issues. It brings > the battery into the safety area of LA batteries that are still hard > to beat offgrid. I am not saying you can't blow the top off a LA > battery eitherWink > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 07:23:07 -0400, John Blittersdorf > wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > John Blittersdorf > June 17, 2021 at 4:23 AM > This just proves the weak link is the BMS. > I had the honor of replacing the BMS in that exact model in a stack of > 3 batteries.  Luckily it was on the bottom shelf so I could pull the > monster out onto the floor to get access to the lid.  The lid is > sealed shut but with persistence it opened.  I was working with their > tech support and following their instructions.  I disconnected it from > the other two that were in a parallel configuration before opening. > Battery voltage was zero at the terminals. I did voltage checks at > various checkpoints to confirm it was the BMS at fault. Relion sent a > new BMS which I carefully installed and it has worked fine since.  Had > I seen this photo first, I may have not been so eager to see the > inside of that battery. > > John Blittersdorf > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > jay > June 16, 2021 at 12:22 PM > Hi Jeff, > > I don’t know if you saw the photo.  No cutting involved. > The top is removed with roughly 14 fasteners. > No tools or prying was involved in the removal of the top cover. > > jay > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 635 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Fri Jun 18 15:05:32 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:05:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EB2838C-6E3F-44BE-9A49-33E8B1A6D265@solshineenergy.com> MiJo, I’m feeding the transfer switch/backup panel via the Sol-Ark’s load output. This is a net metering application with select loads backed up. Chris Mason was able to help resolve my issue. Generac offers a kit to convert my customer’s particular generator to a 2 wire start. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jun 17, 2021, at 8:41 PM, MiJo Nels wrote: >  > Hey Rick, are your loads in this scenario not all behind the SolArk (and already capable of all no-back feed scenarios including zero export?) > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > > From: MiJo Nels > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 5:38:36 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch > > We have started doing away with the ATS all together. Generac recently released a FW code you can enter to indicate to the generator you want it to Start/Stop with 2-wire configuration. A generator that size I would feed directly into the SolArk and let the SolArk Start/Stop function. This will increase the "Up Time" of the inverter as it will always have a secondary power source it can call on when there's a low SOC. > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S21 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone > Get Outlook for Android > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of William Miller > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 9:11:30 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 12k w/ Generac Transfer Switch > > Friends: > > I dislike jury-rigging a generator loss-of-grid start signal to a two-wire start. If the inverters need to be shut down for service or happen to shut down on their own, the generator will start. Not a good design. > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > >> On Jun 17, 2021, at 6:48 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>  >> Hi Rick, >> I have a similar situation with a GE transfer switch, but am curious to hear what others have to say. My assumption was that the switch transfers based on loss of 240V from the grid. But I believe (at least with the GE generator) that the transfer switch sends a two wire start signal to the inverter when the transfer switch loses the 240V signal. My plan was to rewire that start signal to the Sol-Ark inverter, but keep the transfer switch as the main service point to prevent any kind of backfeeding to the grid. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 9:41 AM rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: >> Wrenches, >> >> I’m looking to tie in a Generac Powerpact 7.5kW generator with transfer switch to a Sol-Ark 12kW. The Sol-Ark has a two wire start (NO or NC) capability, however, the Generac transfer switch operates on loss of 240V. Is my only option to use a relay driven by the two wire start to drop 240V to the transfer switch? >> >> Thank you, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> Office: 540.235.3095 >> Mobile: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Dave Tedeyan, PE >> >> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 >> Cell: 607-288-2898 >> www.sungineersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Fri Jun 18 17:27:39 2021 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 14:27:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWWP - Whisper 200 In-Reply-To: <68270E31-E623-49AA-BF23-40669424E1B9@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <68270E31-E623-49AA-BF23-40669424E1B9@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: If anyone is looking for blades for that Whisper 200 I have a set, new in box. Ron earthRight Solar Solareagle.com > On Jun 18, 2021, at 8:05 AM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > Anyone have a need for an unused Southwest Windpower Whisper 200 turbine head? There are no blades, nose cone, or controller. Contact me directly for more details and pics. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jun 18 23:45:43 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 20:45:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Vehicle to Grid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well l have not seen in production 150 kwhr batteries yet and just because you can charge your car with the grid up you would still need a transfer switch to lock out the grid in an outage. I did research on this not 5 years ago and used junkyard batteries and programmed SMA inverters, RTE was less then 80% and closer to 70% most of the time, so if its load shift it does not pencil out. I'm sure it will happen and for better or worse. Just not to my customers Jerry On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 7:20 AM August Goers wrote: > Hi Jerry, > > You have good points, and I'm not pushing back on those. Dealing with long > term outages during natural (or unnatural) disasters is a big challenge > with tradeoffs on any route you go. Battery technology is improving rapidly > and coming down in cost. If you have a 150 kWh battery in your EV in your > driveway already connected to your home for charging purposes, wouldn't you > want the flexibility of V2G to keep your home running during an outage? > Heck, add a fossil fuel genny or stationary battery if you want. V2G isn't > here yet, but it is coming and the possibilities are awesome. > > Getting back to Carl's initial question - how do we respond to potential > clients who are trying to buy products now? Well, we offer the best choices > on the market right now. Hopefully AC-coupling will allow EVs of the future > to connect to PV systems through V2G. It's the classic question of whether > someone should buy what is available now or wait for new technology. Grid > tied PV is mature and works well. Now is a great time to go solar. ESS? > Well, we're still in the early adopter phase for the newer gen lithium tech > such as what Tesla, SolarEdge, Enphase, SunPower, Generac, etc are > offering. Adoption rates for our customers are exceeding 50% pairing ESS > with new PV systems. So far these systems are beating my expectations > although they are challenging to design and build. But if the grid goes > down for multiple days? It will be a mixed bag of some great success > stories versus others running out of juice while the grid is still down. > Nonetheless, it's a really exciting time to be in the PV and ESS business! > > August > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 6:52 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> August have seen it work, sure but l have had customer loose power after >> three days of smoke filled sky, no regen and l have the same customers with >> EV's then what no escape if the killed the car too. I understand all of it, >> we did testing in Hawaii and here in California, in a hail Mary, use what >> you got but as a NOP no, Ford is going to try it out, we will see how bad >> RTE really is. You might think to just use the battery for peak shaving, >> now you need to understand cycle life in your ROI when its getting several >> more cycles in a given week vs possible reduction in travel distance on a >> full charge over time vs cost to replace said battery due to excessive >> cycling. Like l said yes it can be done but we have very good stationary >> battery tech so why. But hey that just my opinion >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV inspector >> >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 8:34 AM August Goers wrote: >> >>> Jerry - there are some key difference between V2G with PV and fuel based >>> vehicles and generators. Mainly, the V2G would allow the home to stay on >>> when the grid goes down and thus keep the PV system running. The PV system >>> could then power the home and charge the vehicle. All of this can be >>> controlled and setup in a way that allows plenty of reserve capacity in the >>> vehicle for getting out of dodge. It's not ready for primetime yet, but it >>> is coming. >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 8:06 AM Jerry Shafer >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Wrenches >>>> Would you use the gas in your car to run your genny till empty, much >>>> the same, l remember talking about this years ago and I do not recommend >>>> doing this, I dont know of any utilities that would alo that. I work in >>>> Hawaii and California when we have a PSPS the last thing you want to do is >>>> not be able to leave if you have to because you kept the refer cold, its >>>> smokey and you have no recharge-ability. >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, 7:24 AM August Goers wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Carl - >>>>> >>>>> V2G (Vehicle to Grid) is one of the most exciting areas of technology >>>>> coming down the pipes. It's easy to imagine a day where you can tap into >>>>> ~100 kWh or more of storage sitting in your EV and benefit from >>>>> bi-directional charging with PV. I'm trying to get my head wrapped around >>>>> the standards and how the technology will likely roll out. Here is an >>>>> article that explains some of the basics: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://blog.wallbox.com/why-bidirectional-charging-is-the-next-big-thing-for-ev-owners/ >>>>> >>>>> I think we're at the mercy of the manufacturers to come out with >>>>> products that we can then work with. Ford apparently is teaming up with >>>>> SunRun to install what must be a Microgrid Interconnect Device (MID) and >>>>> inverter for the F150 Lightning. Other manufacturers will likely follow >>>>> suit. I know there's a lot of work going into the standards such as the CCS >>>>> plug which has J1772 and Quick charge. The Chademo standard came out with >>>>> V2G built into the standard, but apparently is falling out of favor. I'm a >>>>> little out of the loop on all of this, but am trying to learn. >>>>> >>>>> The big question coming to mind that we should all be thinking about >>>>> is whether permanently installed Energy Storage Systems (ESS) vs V2G makes >>>>> more sense for our grid tied clients. Clearly there's not a whole lot we >>>>> can do until products are available on the market. But in the next 5 years? >>>>> There will be a lot of change. Tesla seems to be sticking with the >>>>> permanently installed ESS route with their Powerwall system. Ford really >>>>> let the cat out of the bag with their F150 Lightning announcement. Exciting >>>>> time ahead! >>>>> >>>>> August >>>>> Luminalt >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 4:20 AM Carl Adams >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello Wrenches, >>>>>> Have any of you looked into Vehicle to Grid systems and how they will >>>>>> play with existing solar installation. I have residential customers >>>>>> asking questions about how we ensure that our installation is compatible >>>>>> with these systems. I've seen announcements from Ford, Nissan, and >>>>>> Mitsubishi on their planned releases. >>>>>> >>>>>> With Kind Regards >>>>>> Carl Adams, President >>>>>> SunRock Solar, LLC >>>>>> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >>>>>> 513.766.6025 (office) >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Jun 21 11:42:36 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:42:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help Message-ID: Wrenches, I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. Modules are REC Alpha 360s. This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each when in the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct voltage - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy comes on line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct voltage - ~315V - on the other string. The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual check what else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Mon Jun 21 11:55:01 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:55:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rick, I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of rick at solshineenergy.com Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help Wrenches, I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. Modules are REC Alpha 360s. This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each when in the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct voltage - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy comes on line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct voltage - ~315V - on the other string. The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual check what else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Mon Jun 21 12:14:01 2021 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 12:14:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rick, I was recently troubleshooting a similar problem. Open circuit voltage on all strings was as expected but under load one string was showing almost no power. Tracked this down to a failed APSmart device which had clear signs of thermal damage. Pictures 1.1 and 1.2. . A second failed unit some months later had a thermal failure and this one toasted the module. Picture 2.1. These devices can make it difficult to do any meaningful string level testing. The devices output a nominal 0.7 volts in open circuit conditions. That documentation says this voltage reading is *+* 25%, so in theory you could have a number of devices which were not working and your string voltage would not indicate that. APSmart does make a test device which can help you verify the functionality. The device is called RSD-EYE+ Detector. You can contact YI Kang , *APPLICATION & TECHNICAL SUPPORT MANAGER,* *MLRSD *at APSmart for additional information. 737.218.8486 [image: FailedAPSmart1.2.jpg] [image: FailedAPSmart2.1.jpg] [image: FailedAPSmart1.1.jpg] With Kind Regards Carl Adams, President SunRock Solar, LLC 513.290.9072 (mobile) 513.766.6025 (office) On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter < lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > Rick, > I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. > > Best regards, > Lloyd > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > Get Outlook for iOS > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of rick at solshineenergy.com > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help > > Wrenches, > > I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with > rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD > devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. > Modules are REC Alpha 360s. > > This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went awry. > Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the display > while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each when in > the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct voltage > - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy comes on > line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct voltage - > ~315V - on the other string. > > The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC voltage > from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual check what > else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? > > And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. > > Thanks, > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FailedAPSmart1.2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 456652 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FailedAPSmart2.1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 399000 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FailedAPSmart1.1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 588764 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Jun 21 12:43:15 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 12:43:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C637398-50A3-4770-97C4-BAD34CACC498@solshineenergy.com> Carl, That’s very helpful. We’ll check each module and report back. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > >  > Rick, > I was recently troubleshooting a similar problem. Open circuit voltage on all strings was as expected but under load one string was showing almost no power. Tracked this down to a failed APSmart device which had clear signs of thermal damage. Pictures 1.1 and 1.2. . > A second failed unit some months later had a thermal failure and this one toasted the module. Picture 2.1. > > These devices can make it difficult to do any meaningful string level testing. The devices output a nominal 0.7 volts in open circuit conditions. That documentation says this voltage reading is + 25%, so in theory you could have a number of devices which were not working and your string voltage would not indicate that. > > APSmart does make a test device which can help you verify the functionality. The device is called RSD-EYE+ Detector. You can contact YI Kang , APPLICATION & TECHNICAL SUPPORT MANAGER, > MLRSD at APSmart for additional information. 737.218.8486 > > > > > > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > > > On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: >> Rick, >> I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. >> >> Best regards, >> Lloyd >> >> Lloyd Hoffstatter >> Sunstruck Consulting >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> From: RE-wrenches on behalf of rick at solshineenergy.com >> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. Modules are REC Alpha 360s. >> >> This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each when in the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct voltage - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy comes on line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct voltage - ~315V - on the other string. >> >> The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual check what else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? >> >> And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. >> >> Thanks, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> O: 540.235.3095 >> M: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Mon Jun 21 17:41:44 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:41:44 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: <0C637398-50A3-4770-97C4-BAD34CACC498@solshineenergy.com> References: <0C637398-50A3-4770-97C4-BAD34CACC498@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: <66C4C05B-4BEC-4D87-B22E-55BB7EB11D58@sunwindpowerinc.com> We are going through a similar scenario right now with APSmart RSD’s and a SMA 7.0 that will start up and run, then the next day no start up at dawn. Perform a hard reset on inverter and array starts up, runs all day, then the next morning we’re back to doing a hard reset to get array to start up. Very simple system 2 strings of 12, voltages at inverter around 8V (12x0.7=8.4V) - short run with oversized conductors means very small voltage drop thankfully. SMA says we need to be on site to troubleshoot, but without the little APS RSD Eye, I’m thinking they’re just going to say it’s not their problem. APS’s troubleshooting guide basically says lift each panel to find the problem. Not a happy camper! Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:43 PM, "rick at solshineenergy.com" wrote: > > Carl, > That’s very helpful. We’ll check each module and report back. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > >>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Carl Adams wrote: >>> >>  >> Rick, >> I was recently troubleshooting a similar problem. Open circuit voltage on all strings was as expected but under load one string was showing almost no power. Tracked this down to a failed APSmart device which had clear signs of thermal damage. Pictures 1.1 and 1.2. . >> A second failed unit some months later had a thermal failure and this one toasted the module. Picture 2.1. >> >> These devices can make it difficult to do any meaningful string level testing. The devices output a nominal 0.7 volts in open circuit conditions. That documentation says this voltage reading is + 25%, so in theory you could have a number of devices which were not working and your string voltage would not indicate that. >> >> APSmart does make a test device which can help you verify the functionality. The device is called RSD-EYE+ Detector. You can contact YI Kang , APPLICATION & TECHNICAL SUPPORT MANAGER, >> MLRSD at APSmart for additional information. 737.218.8486 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> With Kind Regards >> Carl Adams, President >> SunRock Solar, LLC >> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >> 513.766.6025 (office) >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: >>> Rick, >>> I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Lloyd >>> >>> Lloyd Hoffstatter >>> Sunstruck Consulting >>> >>> Get Outlook for iOS >>> From: RE-wrenches on behalf of rick at solshineenergy.com >>> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. Modules are REC Alpha 360s. >>> >>> This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each when in the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct voltage - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy comes on line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct voltage - ~315V - on the other string. >>> >>> The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual check what else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? >>> >>> And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> O: 540.235.3095 >>> M: 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Jun 21 17:44:49 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:44:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: <66C4C05B-4BEC-4D87-B22E-55BB7EB11D58@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <66C4C05B-4BEC-4D87-B22E-55BB7EB11D58@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <0AE23555-77CC-4660-9131-EA7B103B6D80@solshineenergy.com> I’m going to try the thermal camera trick before resorting to lifting modules. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:42 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > We are going through a similar scenario right now with APSmart RSD’s and a SMA 7.0 that will start up and run, then the next day no start up at dawn. Perform a hard reset on inverter and array starts up, runs all day, then the next morning we’re back to doing a hard reset to get array to start up. > > Very simple system 2 strings of 12, voltages at inverter around 8V (12x0.7=8.4V) - short run with oversized conductors means very small voltage drop thankfully. SMA says we need to be on site to troubleshoot, but without the little APS RSD Eye, I’m thinking they’re just going to say it’s not their problem. APS’s troubleshooting guide basically says lift each panel to find the problem. Not a happy camper! > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:43 PM, "rick at solshineenergy.com" wrote: >>> >> Carl, >> That’s very helpful. We’ll check each module and report back. >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> O: 540.235.3095 >> M: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> >> >> >> >>>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Carl Adams wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> Rick, >>> I was recently troubleshooting a similar problem. Open circuit voltage on all strings was as expected but under load one string was showing almost no power. Tracked this down to a failed APSmart device which had clear signs of thermal damage. Pictures 1.1 and 1.2. . >>> A second failed unit some months later had a thermal failure and this one toasted the module. Picture 2.1. >>> >>> These devices can make it difficult to do any meaningful string level testing. The devices output a nominal 0.7 volts in open circuit conditions. That documentation says this voltage reading is + 25%, so in theory you could have a number of devices which were not working and your string voltage would not indicate that. >>> >>> APSmart does make a test device which can help you verify the functionality. The device is called RSD-EYE+ Detector. You can contact YI Kang , APPLICATION & TECHNICAL SUPPORT MANAGER, >>> MLRSD at APSmart for additional information. 737.218.8486 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> With Kind Regards >>> Carl Adams, President >>> SunRock Solar, LLC >>> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >>> 513.766.6025 (office) >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: >>>> Rick, >>>> I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Lloyd >>>> >>>> Lloyd Hoffstatter >>>> Sunstruck Consulting >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for iOS >>>> From: RE-wrenches on behalf of rick at solshineenergy.com >>>> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help >>>> >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. Modules are REC Alpha 360s. >>>> >>>> This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each when in the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct voltage - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy comes on line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct voltage - ~315V - on the other string. >>>> >>>> The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual check what else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? >>>> >>>> And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> O: 540.235.3095 >>>> M: 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Jun 21 17:54:47 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:54:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: <0AE23555-77CC-4660-9131-EA7B103B6D80@solshineenergy.com> References: <66C4C05B-4BEC-4D87-B22E-55BB7EB11D58@sunwindpowerinc.com> <0AE23555-77CC-4660-9131-EA7B103B6D80@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: <23f05948-d96f-bc76-2320-faead2eea303@psln.com> Rick,             Its possible you won't find it that way because its already fried and in an open circuited or bypass mode.  But keep us updated, we're very interested. Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 6/21/2021 2:44 PM, rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: > I’m going to try the thermal camera trick before resorting to lifting > modules. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > >> On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:42 PM, Jeremy Coxon >> wrote: >> >> We are going through a similar scenario right now with APSmart RSD’s >> and a SMA 7.0 that will start up and run, then the next day no start >> up at dawn.  Perform a hard reset on inverter and array starts up, >> runs all day, then the next morning we’re back to doing a hard reset >> to get array to start up. >> >> Very simple system 2 strings of 12, voltages at inverter around 8V >> (12x0.7=8.4V) - short run with oversized conductors means very small >> voltage drop thankfully.  SMA says we need to be on site to >> troubleshoot, but without the little APS RSD Eye, I’m thinking >> they’re just going to say it’s not their problem.  APS’s >> troubleshooting guide basically says lift each panel to find the >> problem.  Not a happy camper! >> >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP >> Certified MWBE >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:43 PM, "rick at solshineenergy.com" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Carl, >>> That’s very helpful. We’ll check each module and report back. >>> >>> rick brown >>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>> O: 540.235.3095 >>> M: 540.808.9502 >>> >>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Carl Adams >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> Rick, >>>> I was recently troubleshooting a similar problem.  Open circuit >>>> voltage on all strings was as expected but under load one string >>>> was showing almost no power. Tracked this down to a failed APSmart >>>> device which had clear signs of thermal damage. Pictures 1.1 and >>>> 1.2.  . >>>> A second failed unit some months later had a thermal failure and >>>> this one toasted the module.  Picture 2.1. >>>> >>>> These devices can make it difficult to do any meaningful string >>>> level testing. The devices output a nominal 0.7 volts in open >>>> circuit conditions.  That documentation says this voltage reading >>>> is _+_ 25%, so in theory you could have a number of devices which >>>> were not working and your string voltage would not indicate that. >>>> >>>> APSmart does make a test device which can help you verify the >>>> functionality. The device is called  RSD-EYE+ Detector. You can >>>> contact YI Kang , *APPLICATION & TECHNICAL SUPPORT MANAGER,* >>>> *MLRSD *at APSmart for additional information. 737.218.8486 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> With Kind Regards >>>> Carl Adams, President >>>> SunRock Solar, LLC >>>> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >>>> 513.766.6025 (office) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Rick, >>>> I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Lloyd >>>> >>>> Lloyd Hoffstatter >>>> Sunstruck Consulting >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for iOS >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches >>> > on behalf >>>> of rick at solshineenergy.com >>>> > >>>> *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches >>> > >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help >>>> Wrenches, >>>> >>>> I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed >>>> system with rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 >>>> SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB >>>> is configured with two strings of 9. Modules are REC Alpha 360s. >>>> >>>> This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things >>>> went awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings >>>> read 0V 0A on the display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The >>>> RSD devices output ~700mV each when in the off mode (a nice >>>> verification feature). I’m reading the correct voltage - 6.75V >>>> - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy comes on >>>> line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the >>>> correct voltage - ~315V - on the other string. >>>> >>>> The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient >>>> DC voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and >>>> doing a visual check what else can I look at? How do you >>>> isolate a faulty RSD device? >>>> >>>> And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> O: 540.235.3095 >>>> M: 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>> work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 17:55:26 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:55:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: <0AE23555-77CC-4660-9131-EA7B103B6D80@solshineenergy.com> References: <66C4C05B-4BEC-4D87-B22E-55BB7EB11D58@sunwindpowerinc.com> <0AE23555-77CC-4660-9131-EA7B103B6D80@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: Wrenches Can you slit the array in half more or less as a process of elimination, I've used fire raptor and we had a glitch unit and it was pretty easy once we split up the array. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 2:45 PM rick at solshineenergy.com < rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > I’m going to try the thermal camera trick before resorting to lifting > modules. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:42 PM, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > > We are going through a similar scenario right now with APSmart RSD’s and > a SMA 7.0 that will start up and run, then the next day no start up at > dawn. Perform a hard reset on inverter and array starts up, runs all day, > then the next morning we’re back to doing a hard reset to get array to > start up. > > Very simple system 2 strings of 12, voltages at inverter around 8V > (12x0.7=8.4V) - short run with oversized conductors means very small > voltage drop thankfully. SMA says we need to be on site to troubleshoot, > but without the little APS RSD Eye, I’m thinking they’re just going to say > it’s not their problem. APS’s troubleshooting guide basically says lift > each panel to find the problem. Not a happy camper! > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:43 PM, "rick at solshineenergy.com" < > rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > > Carl, > That’s very helpful. We’ll check each module and report back. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > >  > Rick, > I was recently troubleshooting a similar problem. Open circuit voltage on > all strings was as expected but under load one string was showing almost no > power. Tracked this down to a failed APSmart device which had clear signs > of thermal damage. Pictures 1.1 and 1.2. . > A second failed unit some months later had a thermal failure and this one > toasted the module. Picture 2.1. > > These devices can make it difficult to do any meaningful string level > testing. The devices output a nominal 0.7 volts in open circuit > conditions. That documentation says this voltage reading is *+* 25%, so > in theory you could have a number of devices which were not working and > your string voltage would not indicate that. > > APSmart does make a test device which can help you verify the > functionality. The device is called RSD-EYE+ Detector. You can contact > YI Kang , *APPLICATION & TECHNICAL SUPPORT MANAGER,* > *MLRSD *at APSmart for additional information. 737.218.8486 > > > > > > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > > > On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter < > lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > >> Rick, >> I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. >> >> Best regards, >> Lloyd >> >> Lloyd Hoffstatter >> Sunstruck Consulting >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of rick at solshineenergy.com >> *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with >> rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD >> devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. >> Modules are REC Alpha 360s. >> >> This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went >> awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the >> display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each >> when in the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct >> voltage - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy >> comes on line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct >> voltage - ~315V - on the other string. >> >> The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC >> voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual >> check what else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? >> >> And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. >> >> Thanks, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> O: 540.235.3095 >> M: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Mon Jun 21 18:28:06 2021 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:28:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: <0AE23555-77CC-4660-9131-EA7B103B6D80@solshineenergy.com> References: <66C4C05B-4BEC-4D87-B22E-55BB7EB11D58@sunwindpowerinc.com> <0AE23555-77CC-4660-9131-EA7B103B6D80@solshineenergy.com> Message-ID: APSmart also suggested the thermal camera but that assumes that the array/string is up and running. If you had a single device that was out and causing the problem that might help pinpoint it but in our case the entire string was offline because the failed RSD was the last module in the string. With Kind Regards Carl Adams SunRock Solar 513.290.9072 On Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:45 PM rick at solshineenergy.com < rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > I’m going to try the thermal camera trick before resorting to lifting > modules. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:42 PM, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > > We are going through a similar scenario right now with APSmart RSD’s and > a SMA 7.0 that will start up and run, then the next day no start up at > dawn. Perform a hard reset on inverter and array starts up, runs all day, > then the next morning we’re back to doing a hard reset to get array to > start up. > > Very simple system 2 strings of 12, voltages at inverter around 8V > (12x0.7=8.4V) - short run with oversized conductors means very small > voltage drop thankfully. SMA says we need to be on site to troubleshoot, > but without the little APS RSD Eye, I’m thinking they’re just going to say > it’s not their problem. APS’s troubleshooting guide basically says lift > each panel to find the problem. Not a happy camper! > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:43 PM, "rick at solshineenergy.com" < > rick at solshineenergy.com> wrote: > > Carl, > That’s very helpful. We’ll check each module and report back. > > rick brown > SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC > Electrical & Solar Contracting Services > www.SolShineEnergy.com > Check, Virginia 24072 > O: 540.235.3095 > M: 540.808.9502 > > VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 > VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 > VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > >  > Rick, > I was recently troubleshooting a similar problem. Open circuit voltage on > all strings was as expected but under load one string was showing almost no > power. Tracked this down to a failed APSmart device which had clear signs > of thermal damage. Pictures 1.1 and 1.2. . > A second failed unit some months later had a thermal failure and this one > toasted the module. Picture 2.1. > > These devices can make it difficult to do any meaningful string level > testing. The devices output a nominal 0.7 volts in open circuit > conditions. That documentation says this voltage reading is *+* 25%, so > in theory you could have a number of devices which were not working and > your string voltage would not indicate that. > > APSmart does make a test device which can help you verify the > functionality. The device is called RSD-EYE+ Detector. You can contact > YI Kang , *APPLICATION & TECHNICAL SUPPORT MANAGER,* > *MLRSD *at APSmart for additional information. 737.218.8486 > > > > > > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams, President > SunRock Solar, LLC > 513.290.9072 (mobile) > 513.766.6025 (office) > > > > On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter < > lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > >> Rick, >> I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. >> >> Best regards, >> Lloyd >> >> Lloyd Hoffstatter >> Sunstruck Consulting >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* RE-wrenches on >> behalf of rick at solshineenergy.com >> *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with >> rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD >> devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. >> Modules are REC Alpha 360s. >> >> This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went >> awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the >> display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each >> when in the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct >> voltage - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy >> comes on line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct >> voltage - ~315V - on the other string. >> >> The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC >> voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual >> check what else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? >> >> And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. >> >> Thanks, >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> O: 540.235.3095 >> M: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Mon Jun 21 19:39:11 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 19:39:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60F05CDD-029D-4F1C-961E-EF2D8EA346D3@solshineenergy.com> It’s intermittent so I’m hopeful. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Jun 21, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Carl Adams wrote: > >  > APSmart also suggested the thermal camera but that assumes that the array/string is up and running. If you had a single device that was out and causing the problem that might help pinpoint it but in our case the entire string was offline because the failed RSD was the last module in the string. > > With Kind Regards > Carl Adams > SunRock Solar > 513.290.9072 > >> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:45 PM rick at solshineenergy.com wrote: >> I’m going to try the thermal camera trick before resorting to lifting modules. >> >> rick brown >> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >> www.SolShineEnergy.com >> Check, Virginia 24072 >> O: 540.235.3095 >> M: 540.808.9502 >> >> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >> >> >> >> >> >>>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 5:42 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: >>>> >>> We are going through a similar scenario right now with APSmart RSD’s and a SMA 7.0 that will start up and run, then the next day no start up at dawn. Perform a hard reset on inverter and array starts up, runs all day, then the next morning we’re back to doing a hard reset to get array to start up. >>> >>> Very simple system 2 strings of 12, voltages at inverter around 8V (12x0.7=8.4V) - short run with oversized conductors means very small voltage drop thankfully. SMA says we need to be on site to troubleshoot, but without the little APS RSD Eye, I’m thinking they’re just going to say it’s not their problem. APS’s troubleshooting guide basically says lift each panel to find the problem. Not a happy camper! >>> >>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP >>> Certified MWBE >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:43 PM, "rick at solshineenergy.com" wrote: >>>>> >>>> Carl, >>>> That’s very helpful. We’ll check each module and report back. >>>> >>>> rick brown >>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>> O: 540.235.3095 >>>> M: 540.808.9502 >>>> >>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 12:15 PM, Carl Adams wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Rick, >>>>> I was recently troubleshooting a similar problem. Open circuit voltage on all strings was as expected but under load one string was showing almost no power. Tracked this down to a failed APSmart device which had clear signs of thermal damage. Pictures 1.1 and 1.2. . >>>>> A second failed unit some months later had a thermal failure and this one toasted the module. Picture 2.1. >>>>> >>>>> These devices can make it difficult to do any meaningful string level testing. The devices output a nominal 0.7 volts in open circuit conditions. That documentation says this voltage reading is + 25%, so in theory you could have a number of devices which were not working and your string voltage would not indicate that. >>>>> >>>>> APSmart does make a test device which can help you verify the functionality. The device is called RSD-EYE+ Detector. You can contact YI Kang , APPLICATION & TECHNICAL SUPPORT MANAGER, >>>>> MLRSD at APSmart for additional information. 737.218.8486 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> With Kind Regards >>>>> Carl Adams, President >>>>> SunRock Solar, LLC >>>>> 513.290.9072 (mobile) >>>>> 513.766.6025 (office) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: >>>>>> Rick, >>>>>> I would check with SMA to make sure you have the latest firmware. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Lloyd >>>>>> >>>>>> Lloyd Hoffstatter >>>>>> Sunstruck Consulting >>>>>> >>>>>> Get Outlook for iOS >>>>>> From: RE-wrenches on behalf of rick at solshineenergy.com >>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021 11:42:36 AM >>>>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] RSD Troubleshooting Help >>>>>> >>>>>> Wrenches, >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m in need of some troubleshooting help on a newly installed system with rapid shutdown. System consists 2 SMA SB5.0-1 SP-US-41 (RSD version), RSD devices are APS RSD-S-PLC. Each SB is configured with two strings of 9. Modules are REC Alpha 360s. >>>>>> >>>>>> This system was fully functional for about 1 week before things went awry. Initial symptoms were that one of the two strings read 0V 0A on the display while the other read ~315V, 5A. The RSD devices output ~700mV each when in the off mode (a nice verification feature). I’m reading the correct voltage - 6.75V - on both strings when in off mode. Once the Sunny Boy comes on line I’m reading around 10V on the faulty string and the correct voltage - ~315V - on the other string. >>>>>> >>>>>> The above seems to indicate that each RSD is getting sufficient DC voltage from the module. Short of pulling each module and doing a visual check what else can I look at? How do you isolate a faulty RSD device? >>>>>> >>>>>> And as luck would have it, everything is functional at the moment. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> rick brown >>>>>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC >>>>>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services >>>>>> www.SolShineEnergy.com >>>>>> Check, Virginia 24072 >>>>>> O: 540.235.3095 >>>>>> M: 540.808.9502 >>>>>> >>>>>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 >>>>>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 >>>>>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer >>>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Jun 23 12:30:28 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:30:28 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air Conditioning energy usage Message-ID: <2e5e0584ee6e47606af9820e45aebc5d@mail.gmail.com> Friends: In the old days when a client suggested they might want to run air conditioning equipment on an off-grid system we would just laugh. Now I find I get that request more frequently and clients are willing to pay to acquire enough system capacity to run AC equipment. This means I need to size off-grid installations appropriately for the loads. I have a job pending with a 5 ton AC unit. I cannot find real-life energy specs. I do have a new, fairly efficient 3 ton unit at my grid-connected home and I do have energy monitoring. On a real hot day recently we used a little less than 11kWh in this unit. The max power draw was about 2.5 kW. Here are my questions: 1. Can I linearly extrapolate my usage to a 5 ton unit? 2. Do any of you have real-life, measured energy data on modern AC condenser units that you would be willing to share? Thanks in advance! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Jun 23 14:59:15 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 14:59:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air Conditioning energy usage In-Reply-To: <2e5e0584ee6e47606af9820e45aebc5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e5e0584ee6e47606af9820e45aebc5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That's a tough call without monitoring, and the difference will be huge depending on SEER rating, insulation, usage habits, and location. You really have to consider worst case, not averages. For example, at home I have an older 5-ton, 13 SEER in SW Florida, one of the most challenging areas in the country (high humidity and heat). My annual average is 22kWh per day. We keep the air on 75F generally. However, my average is 40kWh per day in August! When running it draws just under 3kW. A new multi speed scroll compressor unit with high SEER would probably cut my usage by 40% based on anecdotal information I've gathered over the years. It would also drastically reduce startup surge. My home is also older with poor windows and doors, so a newer home would have much different performance. I have a client with a similarly sized house to mine that was built with efficiency in mind and they consume about half of my electricity consumption. It's a tough design question for sure without data. I don't like these situations. In my opinion you really need to overshoot, especially on the battery capacity if it will be hard to add later. Obviously that gets expensive. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:16 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > In the old days when a client suggested they might want to run air > conditioning equipment on an off-grid system we would just laugh. Now I > find I get that request more frequently and clients are willing to pay to > acquire enough system capacity to run AC equipment. > > > > This means I need to size off-grid installations appropriately for the > loads. I have a job pending with a 5 ton AC unit. I cannot find real-life > energy specs. > > > > I do have a new, fairly efficient 3 ton unit at my grid-connected home and > I do have energy monitoring. On a real hot day recently we used a little > less than 11kWh in this unit. The max power draw was about 2.5 kW. > > > > Here are my questions: > > > > 1. Can I linearly extrapolate my usage to a 5 ton unit? > > 2. Do any of you have real-life, measured energy data on modern AC > condenser units that you would be willing to share? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 23 15:12:25 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 12:12:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air Conditioning energy usage In-Reply-To: <2e5e0584ee6e47606af9820e45aebc5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e5e0584ee6e47606af9820e45aebc5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No laughing here about AC! We only use the best SEER mini-splits for offgrid. Even large homes can be done this way with separate split units. I never use a multizone split as they are down the list energy wise from single 1 ton/12000 btu. Look for 30 SEER. Only the best models from LG, Fugitsu, Mitsu and a few others. Stay away from the cheaper models from any of these makes. Most grid people in NA think that you need to cool down a home in 15 minutes or so. Hence 5 ton. Offgrid, in many places, we just cool from 7am to 7pm this time of year off the sun. We never let the house get hot. Because there are no ducts, we gain 30% with a split. Doing this since 2007 when Sanyo hired me to test for offgrid. Game changer! Reliving this again during recent wildfire seasons and smoke. I have done this in the tropics also. Even Florida.....You need a big array of 6KW or more or virtual/active track to keep off the battery. Even up here last week when it was 100f/80f, we ran 75 F and 78 at night 24/7 on a 200AH LFP battery, in a 1800 square foot house. You just have to scale it for larger houses. People just do not believe this. If you had a Schneider gateway you could watch it here. We can make 50+ KWH here if we need to but seldom do. That power use to be for winter and not needing a genset, but the last 5 years, it is needed during wildfire smoke cutting into available cooling power. I would say about 100 of my clients do this. Less is much more offgrid! The thought of building a power system to support a 5 ton ducted really is a off the mark these days, I think. Good Luck William. Take a drive up the park and see us! Fully vaccinated here! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 09:30:28 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: In the old days when a client suggested they might want to run air conditioning equipment on an off-grid system we would just laugh. Now I find I get that request more frequently and clients are willing to pay to acquire enough system capacity to run AC equipment. This means I need to size off-grid installations appropriately for the loads. I have a job pending with a 5 ton AC unit. I cannot find real-life energy specs. I do have a new, fairly efficient 3 ton unit at my grid-connected home and I do have energy monitoring. On a real hot day recently we used a little less than 11kWh in this unit. The max power draw was about 2.5 kW. Here are my questions: 1. Can I linearly extrapolate my usage to a 5 ton unit? 2. Do any of you have real-life, measured energy data on modern AC condenser units that you would be willing to share? Thanks in advance! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [3] CA Lic. 773985 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Jun 23 14:57:07 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 11:57:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air Conditioning energy usage In-Reply-To: <2e5e0584ee6e47606af9820e45aebc5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e5e0584ee6e47606af9820e45aebc5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <734109EC-4AC3-4618-833E-1E557F627C1D@starlightsolar.com> William, The LRA of an A/C system is the peak current demand. The inverter must be sized for that and all other potential loads if using a single inverter. For that reason, we have almost always used a dedicated inverter for an A/C systems and leave the primary inverter for all other loads. That way the A/C will start no matter what other loads are on the primary inverter. Install a hard start capacitor unit (sometimes now called soft start) if it is not factory equipped with one. Using Li-ion batteries is also recommended due to voltage sag using LA. Otherwise, you may want to size a LA bank larger for the additional current demand while starting. We have been doing separate inverters for 120V RV A/C’s and 240V mini splits this way for years and it has been trouble free. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 23, 2021, at 9:30 AM, William Miller wrote: Friends: In the old days when a client suggested they might want to run air conditioning equipment on an off-grid system we would just laugh. Now I find I get that request more frequently and clients are willing to pay to acquire enough system capacity to run AC equipment. This means I need to size off-grid installations appropriately for the loads. I have a job pending with a 5 ton AC unit. I cannot find real-life energy specs. I do have a new, fairly efficient 3 ton unit at my grid-connected home and I do have energy monitoring. On a real hot day recently we used a little less than 11kWh in this unit. The max power draw was about 2.5 kW. Here are my questions: 1. Can I linearly extrapolate my usage to a 5 ton unit? 2. Do any of you have real-life, measured energy data on modern AC condenser units that you would be willing to share? Thanks in advance! William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Wed Jun 23 17:02:54 2021 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 14:02:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar panel impact Message-ID: Seeking the wisdom of the wrenches. I had a stack of 20 330 watt HIDM panels leaning against a shelf in my store window. An out of control vehicle slammed into the front of the store and all 20 of the panels were knocked to the ground. They kind of fell as a unit and the top of the first panel landed on a cardboard box which supported the weight of the entire lot about 2’ off the floor. All the panels appear undamaged and I’m sure they are fine but having read a little about micro cracks that can degrade the performance I thought I’d ask for opinions. Ron earthRight Solar Solareagle.com From glenn.burt at glbcc.com Wed Jun 23 17:28:28 2021 From: glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 17:28:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar panel impact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008401d76876$c7304ce0$5590e6a0$@glbcc.com> Hard to tell what the future may hold, but an I-V curve test would let you see performance now and across the board. -Glenn -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar panel impact Seeking the wisdom of the wrenches. I had a stack of 20 330 watt HIDM panels leaning against a shelf in my store window. An out of control vehicle slammed into the front of the store and all 20 of the panels were knocked to the ground. They kind of fell as a unit and the top of the first panel landed on a cardboard box which supported the weight of the entire lot about 2’ off the floor. All the panels appear undamaged and I’m sure they are fine but having read a little about micro cracks that can degrade the performance I thought I’d ask for opinions. Ron earthRight Solar Solareagle.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From august at luminalt.com Wed Jun 23 18:06:35 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 15:06:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Air Conditioning energy usage In-Reply-To: <734109EC-4AC3-4618-833E-1E557F627C1D@starlightsolar.com> References: <2e5e0584ee6e47606af9820e45aebc5d@mail.gmail.com> <734109EC-4AC3-4618-833E-1E557F627C1D@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: William - As others have pointed out, there are all sorts of factors that would increase or decrease energy consumption for an AC unit. I like to refer to the Energy Star guide to get an idea of average annual energy consumption: https://www.energystar.gov/products/most_efficient/central_air_conditioners_and_air_source_heat_pumps At least these numbers can be used as a reference point, and you could for example divide the total annual energy use by the number of months you'll be running the system to get a rough kWh/month starting estimate. Then adjust as necessary based on your site specific situation such as a really hot climate, home size, poor insulation, etc. August PS: I think you assume 12,000 Btu/hr for each ton of AC capacity, so a 5 ton AC unit would be 5 x 12,000 = 60,000 Btu/hr On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 12:19 PM larry at starlightsolar.com < larry at starlightsolar.com> wrote: > William, > > The LRA of an A/C system is the peak current demand. The inverter must be > sized for that and all other potential loads if using a single inverter. > For that reason, we have almost always used a dedicated inverter for an A/C > systems and leave the primary inverter for all other loads. That way the > A/C will start no matter what other loads are on the primary inverter. > > Install a hard start capacitor unit (sometimes now called soft start) if > it is not factory equipped with one. Using Li-ion batteries is also > recommended due to voltage sag using LA. Otherwise, you may want to size a > LA bank larger for the additional current demand while starting. > > We have been doing separate inverters for 120V RV A/C’s and 240V mini > splits this way for years and it has been trouble free. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2021, at 9:30 AM, William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > In the old days when a client suggested they might want to run air > conditioning equipment on an off-grid system we would just laugh. Now I > find I get that request more frequently and clients are willing to pay to > acquire enough system capacity to run AC equipment. > > > This means I need to size off-grid installations appropriately for the > loads. I have a job pending with a 5 ton AC unit. I cannot find real-life > energy specs. > > > I do have a new, fairly efficient 3 ton unit at my grid-connected home and > I do have energy monitoring. On a real hot day recently we used a little > less than 11kWh in this unit. The max power draw was about 2.5 kW. > > > Here are my questions: > > > 1. Can I linearly extrapolate my usage to a 5 ton unit? > 2. Do any of you have real-life, measured energy data on modern AC > condenser units that you would be willing to share? > > > Thanks in advance! > > > William Miller > > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at mcfeeters.net Wed Jun 23 18:39:55 2021 From: ben at mcfeeters.net (Ben's Solar and Battery) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:39:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, We typically use SunModo ground mounts with ground screws which we can put just about anywhere as our screw guy has a rock drill. We have one customer who is dead set on a top of pole mount array and will not settle for a typical ground mount with multiple posts. There is shallow ledge all over her property and we feel that digging multiple large holes to find one spot where we might be able to get deep enough would be a waste of time and resources. We have called an underground locator who uses ground penetrating radar and he scanned a few spots, but was unable to give us a good location based on soil types. What are you guys doing in this situation? Are there any alternatives, such as a pole mount with large base and ground screws? I hate saying it can't be done! Thanks! Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 23 19:01:31 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 16:01:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30654e97f0a5ced84691fa4e744c750a@127.0.0.1> A pole mount can be part of a virtually tracked array system. Gives long hours of power, if that is the reason she wants this. It can be angled for SW 9 months and go south for the winter. It needs another array or combo of arrays for SE and S. If it is some other weird reason she wants this, I would just do it and bill in advance. Tell her only death and taxes are guaranteed! Somebody else will have info on a pole mount with ballast. That would be interesting! There is no danger to your screw guy right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:39:55 -0400, "Ben's Solar and Battery" wrote: Hi Wrenches, We typically use SunModo ground mounts with ground screws which we can put just about anywhere as our screw guy has a rock drill. We have one customer who is dead set on a top of pole mount array and will not settle for a typical ground mount with multiple posts. There is shallow ledge all over her property and we feel that digging multiple large holes to find one spot where we might be able to get deep enough would be a waste of time and resources. We have called an underground locator who uses ground penetrating radar and he scanned a few spots, but was unable to give us a good location based on soil types. What are you guys doing in this situation? Are there any alternatives, such as a pole mount with large base and ground screws? I hate saying it can't be done! Thanks! Ben Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jun 23 19:38:37 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 19:38:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge In-Reply-To: <30654e97f0a5ced84691fa4e744c750a@127.0.0.1> References: <30654e97f0a5ced84691fa4e744c750a@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3060a44e-39ff-0054-753a-7453a9923f1c@solarray.com> If you can get anchor bolts in, you can weld on a 1" think plate with gussets to the bottom of the pole. We've had to do this a couple of times in rock.  We'll pour enough concrete to get a level base, but the bolts are epoxied into holes in the rock.  A good epoxy anchor is stronger than the bolt itself.  We've also done combinations, where we can only get 18" of concrete over the rock, then we epoxy in rebar to tie the concrete to the rock, and J bolts set in the concrete to bolt the base plate to. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/23/21 7:01 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > A pole mount can be part of a virtually tracked array system. Gives > long hours of power, if that is the reason she wants this. It can be > angled for SW 9 months and go south for the winter. It needs another > array or combo of arrays for SE and S. If it is some other weird > reason she wants this, I would just do it and bill in advance. Tell > her only death and taxes are guaranteed! > > Somebody else will have info on a pole mount with ballast. That would > be interesting! > > There is no danger to your screw guy right? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:39:55 -0400, "Ben's Solar and Battery" > wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We typically use SunModo ground mounts with ground screws which we >> can put just about anywhere as our screw guy has a rock drill. >> We have one customer who is dead set on a top of pole mount array and >> will not settle for a typical ground mount with multiple posts. >> There is shallow ledge all over her property and we feel that digging >> multiple large holes to find one spot where we might be able to get >> deep enough would be a waste of time and resources.  We have called >> an underground locator who uses ground penetrating radar and he >> scanned a few spots, but was unable to give us a good location based >> on soil types. >> What are you guys doing in this situation? Are there any >> alternatives, such as a pole mount with large base and ground screws? >> I hate saying it can't be done! >> Thanks! >> Ben > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Jun 23 20:51:40 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:51:40 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge In-Reply-To: <3060a44e-39ff-0054-753a-7453a9923f1c@solarray.com> References: <30654e97f0a5ced84691fa4e744c750a@127.0.0.1> <3060a44e-39ff-0054-753a-7453a9923f1c@solarray.com> Message-ID: <004201d76893$194a9b40$4bdfd1c0$@solarwork.com> We have hit rock at 24-30” on several installs over the years and drilled in, hammered in set rebar with concrete epoxy & in the case of a tracker got an engineered base designed with it pinned to the rock. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 5:39 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge If you can get anchor bolts in, you can weld on a 1" think plate with gussets to the bottom of the pole. We've had to do this a couple of times in rock. We'll pour enough concrete to get a level base, but the bolts are epoxied into holes in the rock. A good epoxy anchor is stronger than the bolt itself. We've also done combinations, where we can only get 18" of concrete over the rock, then we epoxy in rebar to tie the concrete to the rock, and J bolts set in the concrete to bolt the base plate to. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/23/21 7:01 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: A pole mount can be part of a virtually tracked array system. Gives long hours of power, if that is the reason she wants this. It can be angled for SW 9 months and go south for the winter. It needs another array or combo of arrays for SE and S. If it is some other weird reason she wants this, I would just do it and bill in advance. Tell her only death and taxes are guaranteed! Somebody else will have info on a pole mount with ballast. That would be interesting! There is no danger to your screw guy right? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:39:55 -0400, "Ben's Solar and Battery" wrote: Hi Wrenches, We typically use SunModo ground mounts with ground screws which we can put just about anywhere as our screw guy has a rock drill. We have one customer who is dead set on a top of pole mount array and will not settle for a typical ground mount with multiple posts. There is shallow ledge all over her property and we feel that digging multiple large holes to find one spot where we might be able to get deep enough would be a waste of time and resources. We have called an underground locator who uses ground penetrating radar and he scanned a few spots, but was unable to give us a good location based on soil types. What are you guys doing in this situation? Are there any alternatives, such as a pole mount with large base and ground screws? I hate saying it can't be done! Thanks! Ben _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palumbo131m at gmail.com Wed Jun 23 23:32:52 2021 From: palumbo131m at gmail.com (palumbo131m at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 23:32:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ben, There is a way if the ledge is solid and true. Twice I have done the following with ledge at 18” to 24” below grade. Excavate down to ledge, drill down into the ledge and you will determine the suitability of the following method. Drill for a pattern of many rebar penetrations in to the ledge. Drill to a reasonable depth (as deep into the ledge as you are able) in my case it was based on our drilling tool and bit length capabilities. We used a large sono tube. 42” as a recall, both of these jobs were over 12 years ago and my recall on the exact size may be off. Determine the best adhesive product to use in your drilled holes for the rebar, again my memory fails as to what we used based on recommendation from a local civil engineer. The sono tube height above grade was determined to be 2’ for one TPM12 and 3.5’ above grade for a TPM16. Depth down to the ledge determines how high above grade you need the concrete footing/base. Use rebar lengths that will end a few inches below the finished surface. For grounding you can coil up ground wire and lay it on the surface of the ledge before your concrete pour. I ran the ground wire through a short length of 1/2” or 3/4” PVC conduit, to protect the copper ground wire where it comes out of the concrete. Place the conduit coming out of the concrete with the ground wire just to the side of where the mounting plate base for the TPM will be and fill the PVC conduit with a good caulk sealer to keep air and water out of this hole as a nexus of concrete, and air will corrode the copper. The TPM’s for those two jobs were made of 8” SCHD 80 steel, we had a large plate welded to the bottom with 4 vertical side supports on the pipe up about a foot. Place the appropriate sized anchor bolts in the concrete pour to match your TPM base. Both of these TPM’s have worked out well over the years. Local conditions will determine the suitability of this method. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 23, 2021, at 6:39 PM, Ben's Solar and Battery wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > We typically use SunModo ground mounts with ground screws which we can put just about anywhere as our screw guy has a rock drill. > We have one customer who is dead set on a top of pole mount array and will not settle for a typical ground mount with multiple posts. > There is shallow ledge all over her property and we feel that digging multiple large holes to find one spot where we might be able to get deep enough would be a waste of time and resources. We have called an underground locator who uses ground penetrating radar and he scanned a few spots, but was unable to give us a good location based on soil types. > What are you guys doing in this situation? Are there any alternatives, such as a pole mount with large base and ground screws? > I hate saying it can't be done! > > Thanks! > Ben > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From dana at solarwork.com Thu Jun 24 08:16:46 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 06:16:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer Message-ID: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> For all of our free standing arrays we now use a Ufer clamp to the rebar either cage or just anti spin rebar that is welded to the pole in the concrete, with #4 braided copper up to the pole combiner box, inverter, etc. for our ground. With a pole mount & a concrete base it is way easier & less expensive than a ground rod, & the inspector seems happier with this approach. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge Ben, There is a way if the ledge is solid and true. Twice I have done the following with ledge at 18” to 24” below grade. Excavate down to ledge, drill down into the ledge and you will determine the suitability of the following method. Drill for a pattern of many rebar penetrations in to the ledge. Drill to a reasonable depth (as deep into the ledge as you are able) in my case it was based on our drilling tool and bit length capabilities. We used a large sono tube. 42” as a recall, both of these jobs were over 12 years ago and my recall on the exact size may be off. Determine the best adhesive product to use in your drilled holes for the rebar, again my memory fails as to what we used based on recommendation from a local civil engineer. The sono tube height above grade was determined to be 2’ for one TPM12 and 3.5’ above grade for a TPM16. Depth down to the ledge determines how high above grade you need the concrete footing/base. Use rebar lengths that will end a few inches below the finished surface. For grounding you can coil up ground wire and lay it on the surface of the ledge before your concrete pour. I ran the ground wire through a short length of 1/2” or 3/4” PVC conduit, to protect the copper ground wire where it comes out of the concrete. Place the conduit coming out of the concrete with the ground wire just to the side of where the mounting plate base for the TPM will be and fill the PVC conduit with a good caulk sealer to keep air and water out of this hole as a nexus of concrete, and air will corrode the copper. The TPM’s for those two jobs were made of 8” SCHD 80 steel, we had a large plate welded to the bottom with 4 vertical side supports on the pipe up about a foot. Place the appropriate sized anchor bolts in the concrete pour to match your TPM base. Both of these TPM’s have worked out well over the years. Local conditions will determine the suitability of this method. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 23, 2021, at 6:39 PM, Ben's Solar and Battery wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > We typically use SunModo ground mounts with ground screws which we can put just about anywhere as our screw guy has a rock drill. > We have one customer who is dead set on a top of pole mount array and will not settle for a typical ground mount with multiple posts. > There is shallow ledge all over her property and we feel that digging multiple large holes to find one spot where we might be able to get deep enough would be a waste of time and resources. We have called an underground locator who uses ground penetrating radar and he scanned a few spots, but was unable to give us a good location based on soil types. > What are you guys doing in this situation? Are there any alternatives, such as a pole mount with large base and ground screws? > I hate saying it can't be done! > > Thanks! > Ben > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Jun 24 10:19:10 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:19:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Meter Wizard Mandatory as of July 15 Message-ID: I just received this email, as I'm sure many of you have. I would encourage you to reach out to your Enphase rep and push back on this insane decision. The installer toolkit has enough quirks, bugs, delays, and issues already. Adding more delay by enforcing the meter wizard is not installer friendly for those of us who actually know what we are doing. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 24 10:31:07 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:31:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer In-Reply-To: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> References: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <98c92f2a-bbde-2080-331d-1d5bee388135@solarray.com> Usually a steel pole in concrete has enough surface area to qualify as a plate electrode under 250.52(A)(7).  It needs to be at least 2 sq ft and 1/4" thick, and have an electrically conductive surface.  So we just drill and tap our ground connection into the pole, near the combiner box. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/24/21 8:16 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > For all of our free standing arrays we now use a Ufer clamp to the rebar either cage or just anti spin rebar that is welded to the pole in the concrete, with #4 braided copper up to the pole combiner box, inverter, etc. for our ground. > With a pole mount & a concrete base it is way easier & less expensive than a ground rod, & the inspector seems happier with this approach. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:33 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge > > Ben, > There is a way if the ledge is solid and true. Twice I have done the following with ledge at 18” to 24” below grade. Excavate down to ledge, drill down into the ledge and you will determine the suitability of the following method. Drill for a pattern of many rebar penetrations in to the ledge. Drill to a reasonable depth (as deep into the ledge as you are able) in my case it was based on our drilling tool and bit length capabilities. We used a large sono tube. 42” as a recall, both of these jobs were over 12 years ago and my recall on the exact size may be off. > Determine the best adhesive product to use in your drilled holes for the rebar, again my memory fails as to what we used based on recommendation from a local civil engineer. The sono tube height above grade was determined to be 2’ for one TPM12 and 3.5’ above grade for a TPM16. Depth down to the ledge determines how high above grade you need the concrete footing/base. Use rebar lengths that will end a few inches below the finished surface. For grounding you can coil up ground wire and lay it on the surface of the ledge before your concrete pour. I ran the ground wire through a short length of 1/2” or 3/4” PVC conduit, to protect the copper ground wire where it comes out of the concrete. Place the conduit coming out of the concrete with the ground wire just to the side of where the mounting plate base for the TPM will be and fill the PVC conduit with a good caulk sealer to keep air and water out of this hole as a nexus of concrete, and air will corrode the copper. The TPM’s for those two jobs were made of 8” SCHD 80 steel, we had a large plate welded to the bottom with 4 vertical side supports on the pipe up about a foot. Place the appropriate sized anchor bolts in the concrete pour to match your TPM base. Both of these TPM’s have worked out well over the years. Local conditions will determine the suitability of this method. > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 23, 2021, at 6:39 PM, Ben's Solar and Battery wrote: >> >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> We typically use SunModo ground mounts with ground screws which we can put just about anywhere as our screw guy has a rock drill. >> We have one customer who is dead set on a top of pole mount array and will not settle for a typical ground mount with multiple posts. >> There is shallow ledge all over her property and we feel that digging multiple large holes to find one spot where we might be able to get deep enough would be a waste of time and resources. We have called an underground locator who uses ground penetrating radar and he scanned a few spots, but was unable to give us a good location based on soil types. >> What are you guys doing in this situation? Are there any alternatives, such as a pole mount with large base and ground screws? >> I hate saying it can't be done! >> >> Thanks! >> Ben >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From frenergy at psln.com Thu Jun 24 18:49:04 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 15:49:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer In-Reply-To: <98c92f2a-bbde-2080-331d-1d5bee388135@solarray.com> References: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> <98c92f2a-bbde-2080-331d-1d5bee388135@solarray.com> Message-ID: <0b8eee55-bb7e-cff3-5911-e14587b19f46@psln.com> Ray,             I couldn't agree more, its been my experience over the years that using 20 feet of #4 rebar in a building's footing was kosher and accepted NEC 250.52(3).  There's a heck of a lot more surface area in 8" pipe 5-6 feet into the earth than rebar in a foundation footing.  The ground at the bottom of the pole footing is also more likely to be damper.  Our AHJ has always accepted the steel pole as a ground rod....common sense prevails sometimes. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/24/2021 7:31 AM, Ray wrote: > Usually a steel pole in concrete has enough surface area to qualify as > a plate electrode under 250.52(A)(7).  It needs to be at least 2 sq ft > and 1/4" thick, and have an electrically conductive surface. So we > just drill and tap our ground connection into the pole, near the > combiner box. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/24/21 8:16 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: >> For all of our free standing arrays we now use a Ufer clamp to the >> rebar either cage or just anti spin rebar that is welded to the pole >> in the concrete, with #4 braided copper up to the pole combiner box, >> inverter, etc. for our ground. >> With a pole mount & a concrete base it is way easier & less expensive >> than a ground rod, & the inspector seems happier with this approach. >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On >> Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com >> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:33 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge >> >> Ben, >> There is a way if the ledge is solid and true. Twice I have done the >> following with ledge at 18” to 24” below grade. Excavate down to >> ledge, drill down into the ledge and you will determine the >> suitability of the following method. Drill for a pattern of many >> rebar penetrations in to the ledge. Drill to a reasonable depth (as >> deep into the ledge as you are able) in my case it was based on our >> drilling tool and bit length capabilities. We used a large sono tube. >> 42” as a recall, both of these jobs were over 12 years ago and my >> recall on the exact size may be off. >> Determine the best adhesive product to use in your drilled holes for >> the rebar, again my memory fails as to what we used based on >> recommendation from a local civil engineer. The sono tube height >> above grade was determined to be 2’ for one TPM12 and 3.5’ above >> grade for a TPM16. Depth down to the ledge determines how high above >> grade you need the concrete footing/base. Use rebar lengths that will >> end a few inches below the finished surface. For grounding you can >> coil up ground wire and lay it on the surface of the ledge before >> your concrete pour. I ran the ground wire through a short length of >> 1/2” or 3/4” PVC conduit, to protect the copper ground wire where it >> comes out of the concrete. Place the conduit coming out of the >> concrete with the ground wire just to the side of where the mounting >> plate base for the TPM will be and fill the PVC conduit with a good >> caulk sealer to keep air and water out of this hole as a nexus of >> concrete, and air will corrode the copper. The TPM’s for those two >> jobs were made of 8” SCHD 80 steel, we had a large plate welded to >> the bottom with 4 vertical side supports on the pipe up about a foot. >> Place the appropriate sized anchor bolts in the concrete pour to >> match your TPM base. Both of these TPM’s have worked out well over >> the years. Local conditions will determine the suitability of this >> method. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ray at solarray.com Thu Jun 24 18:51:21 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:51:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer In-Reply-To: <0b8eee55-bb7e-cff3-5911-e14587b19f46@psln.com> References: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> <98c92f2a-bbde-2080-331d-1d5bee388135@solarray.com> <0b8eee55-bb7e-cff3-5911-e14587b19f46@psln.com> Message-ID: We always put our assumption in our plan notes, based on our interpretation of 250.52(A)(7).  AHJs have never questioned it, and we also tie the pole to any rebar, so its all one big happy grounding electrode. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/24/21 6:49 PM, frenergy wrote: > Ray, > >             I couldn't agree more, its been my experience over the > years that using 20 feet of #4 rebar in a building's footing was > kosher and accepted NEC 250.52(3).  There's a heck of a lot more > surface area in 8" pipe 5-6 feet into the earth than rebar in a > foundation footing.  The ground at the bottom of the pole footing is > also more likely to be damper.  Our AHJ has always accepted the steel > pole as a ground rod....common sense prevails sometimes. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 6/24/2021 7:31 AM, Ray wrote: >> Usually a steel pole in concrete has enough surface area to qualify >> as a plate electrode under 250.52(A)(7).  It needs to be at least 2 >> sq ft and 1/4" thick, and have an electrically conductive surface. So >> we just drill and tap our ground connection into the pole, near the >> combiner box. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/24/21 8:16 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: >>> For all of our free standing arrays we now use a Ufer clamp to the >>> rebar either cage or just anti spin rebar that is welded to the pole >>> in the concrete, with #4 braided copper up to the pole combiner box, >>> inverter, etc. for our ground. >>> With a pole mount & a concrete base it is way easier & less >>> expensive than a ground rod, & the inspector seems happier with this >>> approach. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com >>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765         Idaho PV # 028374 >>> NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com >>> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches On >>> Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:33 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge >>> >>> Ben, >>> There is a way if the ledge is solid and true. Twice I have done the >>> following with ledge at 18” to 24” below grade. Excavate down to >>> ledge, drill down into the ledge and you will determine the >>> suitability of the following method. Drill for a pattern of many >>> rebar penetrations in to the ledge. Drill to a reasonable depth (as >>> deep into the ledge as you are able) in my case it was based on our >>> drilling tool and bit length capabilities. We used a large sono >>> tube. 42” as a recall, both of these jobs were over 12 years ago and >>> my recall on the exact size may be off. >>> Determine the best adhesive product to use in your drilled holes for >>> the rebar, again my memory fails as to what we used based on >>> recommendation from a local civil engineer. The sono tube height >>> above grade was determined to be 2’ for one TPM12 and 3.5’ above >>> grade for a TPM16. Depth down to the ledge determines how high above >>> grade you need the concrete footing/base. Use rebar lengths that >>> will end a few inches below the finished surface. For grounding you >>> can coil up ground wire and lay it on the surface of the ledge >>> before your concrete pour. I ran the ground wire through a short >>> length of 1/2” or 3/4” PVC conduit, to protect the copper ground >>> wire where it comes out of the concrete. Place the conduit coming >>> out of the concrete with the ground wire just to the side of where >>> the mounting plate base for the TPM will be and fill the PVC conduit >>> with a good caulk sealer to keep air and water out of this hole as a >>> nexus of concrete, and air will corrode the copper. The TPM’s for >>> those two jobs were made of 8” SCHD 80 steel, we had a large plate >>> welded to the bottom with 4 vertical side supports on the pipe up >>> about a foot. Place the appropriate sized anchor bolts in the >>> concrete pour to match your TPM base. Both of these TPM’s have >>> worked out well over the years. Local conditions will determine the >>> suitability of this method. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone > > From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Jun 24 20:40:47 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 20:40:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc surge/lightning arrestors Message-ID: Hello, Can anyone recommend a 1000 v arrestor for a 850 v array? Had a storm event this week which requires research. Thanks. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Jun 24 21:03:09 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 18:03:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc surge/lightning arrestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dehn has options as well as lots of good resources. https://www.dehn-usa.com/en-us/dehn-spd-configurator Brian > On Jun 24, 2021, at 5:41 PM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > >  > Hello, > Can anyone recommend a 1000 v arrestor for a 850 v array? Had a storm event this week which requires research. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! > www.vermont.solar > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Thu Jun 24 22:27:24 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:27:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc surge/lightning arrestors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <179A4640-CD7E-4D2A-80AD-2B95A557C315@solarenergy.org> Dehn. Good info on their site. https://www.dehn-usa.com/en-us/dehn-spd-configurator Brian > On Jun 24, 2021, at 5:41 PM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote: > >  > Hello, > Can anyone recommend a 1000 v arrestor for a 850 v array? Had a storm event this week which requires research. Thanks. > > Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar > Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC > Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! > www.vermont.solar > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Jun 25 10:35:21 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 08:35:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer In-Reply-To: References: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> <98c92f2a-bbde-2080-331d-1d5bee388135@solarray.com> <0b8eee55-bb7e-cff3-5911-e14587b19f46@psln.com> Message-ID: <001f01d769cf$54e130f0$fea392d0$@solarwork.com> That’s why we use the Ufer, our AHJ assumes that once a layer of rust develops this is not valid........... Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2021 4:51 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer We always put our assumption in our plan notes, based on our interpretation of 250.52(A)(7). AHJs have never questioned it, and we also tie the pole to any rebar, so its all one big happy grounding electrode. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/24/21 6:49 PM, frenergy wrote: > Ray, > > I couldn't agree more, its been my experience over the > years that using 20 feet of #4 rebar in a building's footing was > kosher and accepted NEC 250.52(3). There's a heck of a lot more > surface area in 8" pipe 5-6 feet into the earth than rebar in a > foundation footing. The ground at the bottom of the pole footing is > also more likely to be damper. Our AHJ has always accepted the steel > pole as a ground rod....common sense prevails sometimes. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > On 6/24/2021 7:31 AM, Ray wrote: >> Usually a steel pole in concrete has enough surface area to qualify >> as a plate electrode under 250.52(A)(7). It needs to be at least 2 >> sq ft and 1/4" thick, and have an electrically conductive surface. So >> we just drill and tap our ground connection into the pole, near the >> combiner box. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/24/21 8:16 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: >>> For all of our free standing arrays we now use a Ufer clamp to the >>> rebar either cage or just anti spin rebar that is welded to the pole >>> in the concrete, with #4 braided copper up to the pole combiner box, >>> inverter, etc. for our ground. >>> With a pole mount & a concrete base it is way easier & less >>> expensive than a ground rod, & the inspector seems happier with this >>> approach. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho >>> Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 >>> www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible >>> People since 1988" >>>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RE-wrenches On >>> Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:33 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge >>> >>> Ben, >>> There is a way if the ledge is solid and true. Twice I have done the >>> following with ledge at 18” to 24” below grade. Excavate down to >>> ledge, drill down into the ledge and you will determine the >>> suitability of the following method. Drill for a pattern of many >>> rebar penetrations in to the ledge. Drill to a reasonable depth (as >>> deep into the ledge as you are able) in my case it was based on our >>> drilling tool and bit length capabilities. We used a large sono >>> tube. 42” as a recall, both of these jobs were over 12 years ago and >>> my recall on the exact size may be off. >>> Determine the best adhesive product to use in your drilled holes for >>> the rebar, again my memory fails as to what we used based on >>> recommendation from a local civil engineer. The sono tube height >>> above grade was determined to be 2’ for one TPM12 and 3.5’ above >>> grade for a TPM16. Depth down to the ledge determines how high above >>> grade you need the concrete footing/base. Use rebar lengths that >>> will end a few inches below the finished surface. For grounding you >>> can coil up ground wire and lay it on the surface of the ledge >>> before your concrete pour. I ran the ground wire through a short >>> length of 1/2” or 3/4” PVC conduit, to protect the copper ground >>> wire where it comes out of the concrete. Place the conduit coming >>> out of the concrete with the ground wire just to the side of where >>> the mounting plate base for the TPM will be and fill the PVC conduit >>> with a good caulk sealer to keep air and water out of this hole as a >>> nexus of concrete, and air will corrode the copper. The TPM’s for >>> those two jobs were made of 8” SCHD 80 steel, we had a large plate >>> welded to the bottom with 4 vertical side supports on the pipe up >>> about a foot. Place the appropriate sized anchor bolts in the >>> concrete pour to match your TPM base. Both of these TPM’s have >>> worked out well over the years. Local conditions will determine the >>> suitability of this method. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From ray at solarray.com Fri Jun 25 12:16:18 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:16:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer In-Reply-To: <001f01d769cf$54e130f0$fea392d0$@solarwork.com> References: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> <98c92f2a-bbde-2080-331d-1d5bee388135@solarray.com> <0b8eee55-bb7e-cff3-5911-e14587b19f46@psln.com> <001f01d769cf$54e130f0$fea392d0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <2ed9b18e-b13b-0e82-30ba-9c0c52843242@solarray.com> Copper can get a pretty good oxide layer on it as well, but I'm not versed in the science enough to know how any of that effects the conductivity. Instead, I assume that the NEC has investigated corrosion, and so we just follow the code. For plate electrodes (250.52(A)(7)), it just specifies dimensions and thickness, and specifically mentions bare iron or steel. 250.52(A)(3)(/1/) for Concrete encased electrodes (UFER) also allows bare steel reinforcing rod, while section (/2/) allows your #4 copper UFER. Lacking further information, I just go with the code, and my own ground impedance measurements over the years.  My small sampling of measurements has found steel rebar grounds and large steel pipe (4"D and larger) to be under 25 ohms, while I have measured copper coated rods as high as 700 ohms in dry soil.  I haven't measure copper UFER or compared it to steel, so again, I don't know. It might be better than steel, but all are allowed by code. Ultimately it might come down to soil and weather conditions for different areas? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/25/21 10:35 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > That’s why we use the Ufer, our AHJ assumes that once a layer of rust develops this is not valid........... > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >  Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2021 4:51 PM > To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer > > We always put our assumption in our plan notes, based on our interpretation of 250.52(A)(7). AHJs have never questioned it, and we also tie the pole to any rebar, so its all one big happy grounding electrode. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 6/24/21 6:49 PM, frenergy wrote: >> Ray, >> >> I couldn't agree more, its been my experience over the >> years that using 20 feet of #4 rebar in a building's footing was >> kosher and accepted NEC 250.52(3). There's a heck of a lot more >> surface area in 8" pipe 5-6 feet into the earth than rebar in a >> foundation footing. The ground at the bottom of the pole footing is >> also more likely to be damper. Our AHJ has always accepted the steel >> pole as a ground rod....common sense prevails sometimes. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> On 6/24/2021 7:31 AM, Ray wrote: >>> Usually a steel pole in concrete has enough surface area to qualify >>> as a plate electrode under 250.52(A)(7). It needs to be at least 2 >>> sq ft and 1/4" thick, and have an electrically conductive surface. So >>> we just drill and tap our ground connection into the pole, near the >>> combiner box. >>> >>> Ray Walters >>> Remote Solar >>> 303 505-8760 >>> >>> On 6/24/21 8:16 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: >>>> For all of our free standing arrays we now use a Ufer clamp to the >>>> rebar either cage or just anti spin rebar that is welded to the pole >>>> in the concrete, with #4 braided copper up to the pole combiner box, >>>> inverter, etc. for our ground. >>>> With a pole mount & a concrete base it is way easier & less >>>> expensive than a ground rod, & the inspector seems happier with this >>>> approach. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >>>> C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho >>>> Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 >>>> www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible >>>> People since 1988" >>>>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RE-wrenches On >>>> Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:33 PM >>>> To: RE-wrenches >>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge >>>> >>>> Ben, >>>> There is a way if the ledge is solid and true. Twice I have done the >>>> following with ledge at 18” to 24” below grade. Excavate down to >>>> ledge, drill down into the ledge and you will determine the >>>> suitability of the following method. Drill for a pattern of many >>>> rebar penetrations in to the ledge. Drill to a reasonable depth (as >>>> deep into the ledge as you are able) in my case it was based on our >>>> drilling tool and bit length capabilities. We used a large sono >>>> tube. 42” as a recall, both of these jobs were over 12 years ago and >>>> my recall on the exact size may be off. >>>> Determine the best adhesive product to use in your drilled holes for >>>> the rebar, again my memory fails as to what we used based on >>>> recommendation from a local civil engineer. The sono tube height >>>> above grade was determined to be 2’ for one TPM12 and 3.5’ above >>>> grade for a TPM16. Depth down to the ledge determines how high above >>>> grade you need the concrete footing/base. Use rebar lengths that >>>> will end a few inches below the finished surface. For grounding you >>>> can coil up ground wire and lay it on the surface of the ledge >>>> before your concrete pour. I ran the ground wire through a short >>>> length of 1/2” or 3/4” PVC conduit, to protect the copper ground >>>> wire where it comes out of the concrete. Place the conduit coming >>>> out of the concrete with the ground wire just to the side of where >>>> the mounting plate base for the TPM will be and fill the PVC conduit >>>> with a good caulk sealer to keep air and water out of this hole as a >>>> nexus of concrete, and air will corrode the copper. The TPM’s for >>>> those two jobs were made of 8” SCHD 80 steel, we had a large plate >>>> welded to the bottom with 4 vertical side supports on the pipe up >>>> about a foot. Place the appropriate sized anchor bolts in the >>>> concrete pour to match your TPM base. Both of these TPM’s have >>>> worked out well over the years. Local conditions will determine the >>>> suitability of this method. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Jun 25 12:41:36 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 09:41:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer In-Reply-To: <2ed9b18e-b13b-0e82-30ba-9c0c52843242@solarray.com> References: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> <98c92f2a-bbde-2080-331d-1d5bee388135@solarray.com> <0b8eee55-bb7e-cff3-5911-e14587b19f46@psln.com> <001f01d769cf$54e130f0$fea392d0$@solarwork.com> <2ed9b18e-b13b-0e82-30ba-9c0c52843242@solarray.com> Message-ID: <3bed9804cebbc481ffc322f563ffed12@127.0.0.1> Words of wisdom Ray! One has to occasionally measure the impedance especially if you are in lightning country! I wish the midnite spd's had another blue led that told you impedance was in a good range. Probably not easy, but a nice dream! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 12:16:18 -0400, Ray wrote: Copper can get a pretty good oxide layer on it as well, but I'm not versed in the science enough to know how any of that effects the conductivity. Instead, I assume that the NEC has investigated corrosion, and so we just follow the code. For plate electrodes (250.52(A)(7)), it just specifies dimensions and thickness, and specifically mentions bare iron or steel. 250.52(A)(3)(_1_) for Concrete encased electrodes (UFER) also allows bare steel reinforcing rod, while section (_2_) allows your #4 copper UFER. Lacking further information, I just go with the code, and my own ground impedance measurements over the years. My small sampling of measurements has found steel rebar grounds and large steel pipe (4"D and larger) to be under 25 ohms, while I have measured copper coated rods as high as 700 ohms in dry soil. I haven't measure copper UFER or compared it to steel, so again, I don't know. It might be better than steel, but all are allowed by code. Ultimately it might come down to soil and weather conditions for different areas? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/25/21 10:35 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: That's why we use the Ufer, our AHJ assumes that once a layer of rust develops this is not valid........... Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com [3] Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com [4] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [5] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2021 4:51 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer We always put our assumption in our plan notes, based on our interpretation of 250.52(A)(7). AHJs have never questioned it, and we also tie the pole to any rebar, so its all one big happy grounding electrode. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/24/21 6:49 PM, frenergy wrote: Ray, I couldn't agree more, its been my experience over the years that using 20 feet of #4 rebar in a building's footing was kosher and accepted NEC 250.52(3). There's a heck of a lot more surface area in 8" pipe 5-6 feet into the earth than rebar in a foundation footing. The ground at the bottom of the pole footing is also more likely to be damper. Our AHJ has always accepted the steel pole as a ground rod....common sense prevails sometimes. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [7] On 6/24/2021 7:31 AM, Ray wrote: Usually a steel pole in concrete has enough surface area to qualify as a plate electrode under 250.52(A)(7). It needs to be at least 2 sq ft and 1/4" thick, and have an electrically conductive surface. So we just drill and tap our ground connection into the pole, near the combiner box. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 6/24/21 8:16 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: For all of our free standing arrays we now use a Ufer clamp to the rebar either cage or just anti spin rebar that is welded to the pole in the concrete, with #4 braided copper up to the pole combiner box, inverter, etc. for our ground. With a pole mount & a concrete base it is way easier & less expensive than a ground rod, & the inspector seems happier with this approach. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com [8] Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com [9] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [10] On Behalf Of palumbo131m at gmail.com [11] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2021 9:33 PM To: RE-wrenches [12] Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Top of Pole Mount Array on Ledge Ben, There is a way if the ledge is solid and true. Twice I have done the following with ledge at 18" to 24" below grade. Excavate down to ledge, drill down into the ledge and you will determine the suitability of the following method. Drill for a pattern of many rebar penetrations in to the ledge. Drill to a reasonable depth (as deep into the ledge as you are able) in my case it was based on our drilling tool and bit length capabilities. We used a large sono tube. 42" as a recall, both of these jobs were over 12 years ago and my recall on the exact size may be off. Determine the best adhesive product to use in your drilled holes for the rebar, again my memory fails as to what we used based on recommendation from a local civil engineer. The sono tube height above grade was determined to be 2' for one TPM12 and 3.5' above grade for a TPM16. Depth down to the ledge determines how high above grade you need the concrete footing/base. Use rebar lengths that will end a few inches below the finished surface. For grounding you can coil up ground wire and lay it on the surface of the ledge before your concrete pour. I ran the ground wire through a short length of 1/2" or 3/4" PVC conduit, to protect the copper ground wire where it comes out of the concrete. Place the conduit coming out of the concrete with the ground wire just to the side of where the mounting plate base for the TPM will be and fill the PVC conduit with a good caulk sealer to keep air and water out of this hole as a nexus of concrete, and air will corrode the copper. The TPM's for those two jobs were made of 8" SCHD 80 steel, we had a large plate welded to the bottom with 4 vertical side supports on the pipe up about a foot. Place the appropriate sized anchor bolts in the concrete pour to match your TPM base. Both of these TPM's have worked out well over the years. Local conditions will determine the suitability of this method. Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [13] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [19] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [20] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:dana at solarwork.com [4] http://www.greatsolarworks.com [5] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://www.frenergy.net [8] mailto:dana at solarwork.com [9] http://www.greatsolarworks.com [10] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [11] mailto:palumbo131m at gmail.com [12] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] http://re-wrenches.org [14] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] http://re-wrenches.org [21] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [26] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jun 26 00:36:11 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 21:36:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer In-Reply-To: <2ed9b18e-b13b-0e82-30ba-9c0c52843242@solarray.com> References: <005f01d768f2$ce0c83e0$6a258ba0$@solarwork.com> <98c92f2a-bbde-2080-331d-1d5bee388135@solarray.com> <0b8eee55-bb7e-cff3-5911-e14587b19f46@psln.com> <001f01d769cf$54e130f0$fea392d0$@solarwork.com> <2ed9b18e-b13b-0e82-30ba-9c0c52843242@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5a6d0528-281f-4846-192a-98faf6b9fc9b@psln.com> I wasn't clear or accurate in my comment " a lot more surface area in 8" pipe 5-6 feet into the earth" which we have never done.  should have said "....5-6 feet into 1.5 yards of concrete embedded in the ground"  Having seen many instances of steel in concrete from demo jobs, little or no rust is found where steel is encased in concrete, at least in these parts of the northern Sierra.             That 2 sq ft X 1/4" thick bare steel plate or other accepted electrodes "shall be embedded below permanent moisture level" (that's pretty fuzzy) has been in the code for a long time, it must be there because it works. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 6/25/2021 9:16 AM, Ray wrote: > > Copper can get a pretty good oxide layer on it as well, but I'm not > versed in the science enough to know how any of that effects the > conductivity. Instead, I assume that the NEC has investigated > corrosion, and so we just follow the code. For plate electrodes > (250.52(A)(7)), it just specifies dimensions and thickness, and > specifically mentions bare iron or steel. 250.52(A)(3)(/1/) for > Concrete encased electrodes (UFER) also allows bare steel reinforcing > rod, while section (/2/) allows your #4 copper UFER. > > Lacking further information, I just go with the code, and my own > ground impedance measurements over the years.  My small sampling of > measurements has found steel rebar grounds and large steel pipe (4"D > and larger) to be under 25 ohms, while I have measured copper coated > rods as high as 700 ohms in dry soil.  I haven't measure copper UFER > or compared it to steel, so again, I don't know. It might be better > than steel, but all are allowed by code. > > Ultimately it might come down to soil and weather conditions for > different areas? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > On 6/25/21 10:35 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: >> That’s why we use the Ufer, our AHJ assumes that once a layer of rust develops this is not valid........... >> >> >> >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. >> C - 208.721.7003dana at solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 >> NABCEP # 051112-136www.greatsolarworks.com >> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" >>  Please consider the environment before printing this email. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray >> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2021 4:51 PM >> To:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grounding Top of Pole Mount Array with a Ufer >> >> We always put our assumption in our plan notes, based on our interpretation of 250.52(A)(7). AHJs have never questioned it, and we also tie the pole to any rebar, so its all one big happy grounding electrode. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> 303 505-8760 >> >> On 6/24/21 6:49 PM, frenergy wrote: >>> Ray, >>> >>> I couldn't agree more, its been my experience over the >>> years that using 20 feet of #4 rebar in a building's footing was >>> kosher and accepted NEC 250.52(3). There's a heck of a lot more >>> surface area in 8" pipe 5-6 feet into the earth than rebar in a >>> foundation footing. The ground at the bottom of the pole footing is >>> also more likely to be damper. Our AHJ has always accepted the steel >>> pole as a ground rod....common sense prevails sometimes. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> On 6/24/2021 7:31 AM, Ray wrote: >>>> Usually a steel pole in concrete has enough surface area to qualify >>>> as a plate electrode under 250.52(A)(7). It needs to be at least 2 >>>> sq ft and 1/4" thick, and have an electrically conductive surface. So >>>> we just drill and tap our ground connection into the pole, near the >>>> combiner box. >>>> >>>> Ray Walters >>>> Remote Solar >>>> 303 505-8760 >>>> >>>> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Jun 27 12:21:35 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 12:21:35 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000vdc surge/lightning arrestors re: Citel SPDs Message-ID: Anyone have experience with Citel SPD's? They make PV specific models. CITEL, PV surge protectors for industrial and public building [https://citel.us/en/citel-pv-surge-protectors-for-industrial-and-public-building] Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 6/24/2021 10:27:37 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Dehn. Good info on their site.  https://www.dehn-usa.com/en-us/dehn-spd-configurator [https://www.dehn-usa.com/en-us/dehn-spd-configurator] Brian On Jun 24, 2021, at 5:41 PM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote:  Hello, Can anyone recommend a 1000 v arrestor for a 850 v array? Had a storm event this week which requires research. Thanks. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sun Jun 27 16:50:51 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2021 16:50:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 240V wind turbine Message-ID: Does anyone still make a 240V single phase small residential wind turbine? I have a client with a Sonos battery system that wants to add some wind. We can't charge the battery at 48V but the Sonos is AC Coupled so the turbine should be able to feed his residential electrical system and the Sonos absorb the excess. -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Jun 28 16:48:36 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:48:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running Message-ID: G'day All, I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along wiith a Schneider AGS module. Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users out there. Sincerely, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Jun 28 17:13:06 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 14:13:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23353410817ad01d1a373e23ff81a26b@mail.gmail.com> Chris: I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an Outback system that might be relevant: When the Outback Radian inverters would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several generator utilization settings) the charging circuits would inject large amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit. This would cause breaker tripping and other problems. To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer. Here is a link to a write-up I did. Hope this helps. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer *Sent:* Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running G'day All, I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along wiith a Schneider AGS module. Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users out there. Sincerely, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericstev at vermontel.net Mon Jun 28 18:24:22 2021 From: ericstev at vermontel.net (ericstev at vermontel.net) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 18:24:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, I strongly suspect that William is correct. It is a power quality issue caused by the charger section of the inverter/charger. I encountered a similar situation with a customer's OutBack VFX inverter several years ago. He purchased a new electronically controlled propane range and a couple of UPS units to back-up his computer. Both worked fine with just the generator or just the inverter, but if the charger started up to charge his batteries then all would go off-line. No amount of tweaking the charge rate down would eliminate the drop-out. A low-pass power-line filter for each appliance might cure the problem. My customer just learned to live with the issue. Eric Stevens Vermont Made Energy > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:48:36 -0400 > From: Chris Schaefer > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > G'day All, > > I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a > Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently > off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The > intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various > reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the > genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer > don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine. > The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny > company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along > wiith a Schneider AGS module. > > Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've > reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see > no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things > out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. > > I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 > days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users > out there. > > Sincerely, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer?s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com [1] > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 14:13:06 -0700 > From: William Miller > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running > Message-ID: <23353410817ad01d1a373e23ff81a26b at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Chris: > > I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an > Outback system that might be relevant: When the Outback Radian inverters > would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several > generator utilization settings) the charging circuits would inject large > amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit. This would cause breaker > tripping and other problems. > > To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer. Here is > a link > > to a write-up I did. > > Hope this helps. > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [2] > > CA Lic. 773985 Links: ------ [1] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [2] http://www.millersolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Jun 28 19:35:56 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:35:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29fccaf4ff0593a33f160dfd8b574d32@127.0.0.1> See attachment Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:48:36 -0400, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day All, I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along wiith a Schneider AGS module. Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users out there. Sincerely, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's [3] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aaaaaa.PNG Type: image/png Size: 132121 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jun 28 19:58:23 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 17:58:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: <23353410817ad01d1a373e23ff81a26b@mail.gmail.com> References: <23353410817ad01d1a373e23ff81a26b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, I recommend enabling Gen support mode and lowering the gen support level until the generator sounds good. I suspect that the generator can't handle full battery charging and loads simultaneously. You may also want to turn down the AC2 In breaker size for the Gen Input, this will determine how much the XW allows to be pulled through the Input terminals. Also, be sure they are using AC2 right now for the generator input, otherwise, you may need to adjust the AC1 parameters instead (or swap terminals). There is also a Gen Amps setting that can be lowered, and you can lower the max charge rate as well. I believe that Schneider treats the AC input as either a grid (can be backfed on AC1 terminals) or a generator (cannot be backfed on AC2 terminals), so I'm not sure if there is equivalent to the Outback Input modes. There are some advanced grid interconnection settings but I don't think that applies here. Let us know what you find out. On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:36 PM William Miller wrote: > Chris: > > > > I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an > Outback system that might be relevant: When the Outback Radian inverters > would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several > generator utilization settings) the charging circuits would inject large > amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit. This would cause breaker > tripping and other problems. > > > > To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer. Here > is a link > > to a write-up I did. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer > *Sent:* Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running > > > > G'day All, > > > > I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with > a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is > currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, > lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for > various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until > the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric > dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs > fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny > company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along > wiith a Schneider AGS module. > > > > Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've > reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see > no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things > out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. > > > > I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 > days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users > out there. > > > > Sincerely, > > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Jun 29 08:51:23 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 08:51:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: <23353410817ad01d1a373e23ff81a26b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: After doing some additional reading of the manual and with everyone's great insight I'm leaning towards the AC2 breaker sizing setting within the SCP. Given that default is 60 amps and that there are two inverters that would tell me that both charging and loads could draw as much as 120 amps. Given that the main output breaker on the 20kw gen is 80 amps I believe this might be part of the issue. Additionally, I'll be purchasing the Insight tool so that I can upgrade the firmware as the client will, once the grid is present need this to select the correct grid code to match the area's utility. In reading the firmware attachment that I believe Dave sent, what caught my eye at the end under Fixes: it states "fixes AC2 generator qualification issues". I'll be sure and update you on my findings. Sincere Thanks, Christopher On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 7:58 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I recommend enabling Gen support mode and lowering the gen support level > until the generator sounds good. I suspect that the generator can't handle > full battery charging and loads simultaneously. You may also want to turn > down the AC2 In breaker size for the Gen Input, this will determine how > much the XW allows to be pulled through the Input terminals. Also, be sure > they are using AC2 right now for the generator input, otherwise, you may > need to adjust the AC1 parameters instead (or swap terminals). There is > also a Gen Amps setting that can be lowered, and you can lower the max > charge rate as well. > > I believe that Schneider treats the AC input as either a grid (can be > backfed on AC1 terminals) or a generator (cannot be backfed on AC2 > terminals), so I'm not sure if there is equivalent to the Outback Input > modes. There are some advanced grid interconnection settings but I don't > think that applies here. > > Let us know what you find out. > > > > > On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:36 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Chris: >> >> >> >> I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an >> Outback system that might be relevant: When the Outback Radian inverters >> would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several >> generator utilization settings) the charging circuits would inject large >> amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit. This would cause breaker >> tripping and other problems. >> >> >> >> To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer. Here >> is a link >> >> to a write-up I did. >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer >> *Sent:* Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running >> >> >> >> G'day All, >> >> >> >> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with >> a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is >> currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, >> lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for >> various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until >> the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric >> dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs >> fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny >> company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along >> wiith a Schneider AGS module. >> >> >> >> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've >> reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see >> no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things >> out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. >> >> >> >> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 >> days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users >> out there. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: **chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jun 29 11:39:47 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:39:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <353DF6FC-E07E-4A07-B720-9167CD918C96@mavericksolar.com> Just a couple add-on comments I’d lower the AC2 breaker size setting to around 40A each inverter. Double check the generator actually goes to AC2 terminals. But, the better setting would be to change the charge percent on the Charger setting for both inverters, maybe dedicate up to 5kW to battery charging?? So, 2.5kW per inverter, about 35% each inverter. (2500W / 50V / 140A Charger). The charger is power factor corrected and generally does a great job not messing up the waveform. Also, keep in mind generator ratings are Marketing values. I would suggest 20kW x 0.80 or 16kW as a working number for the generator. You can measure the voltage and frequency of the generator under high load to get an idea how it likes being loaded down. Next, see if a timer can be installed on the hot water heater to move that load to a non-dryer time of day. That can help with overall generator loading. One customer chose 1AM and that works for them. Another chose 3PM and that works as well, especially with a larger solar array. When you get the gateway and go to do the software upgrade, the inverters will go into standby, so manually start the generator, switch to bypass mode (if necessary) so if you need power to complete the upgrade, you will have it. Good luck and enjoy! Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jun 29, 2021, at 7:51 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > >  > After doing some additional reading of the manual and with everyone's great insight I'm leaning towards the AC2 breaker sizing setting within the SCP. Given that default is 60 amps and that there are two inverters that would tell me that both charging and loads could draw as much as 120 amps. Given that the main output breaker on the 20kw gen is 80 amps I believe this might be part of the issue. Additionally, I'll be purchasing the Insight tool so that I can upgrade the firmware as the client will, once the grid is present need this to select the correct grid code to match the area's utility. In reading the firmware attachment that I believe Dave sent, what caught my eye at the end under Fixes: it states "fixes AC2 generator qualification issues". I'll be sure and update you on my findings. > > Sincere Thanks, > Christopher > >> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 7:58 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Chris, >> >> I recommend enabling Gen support mode and lowering the gen support level until the generator sounds good. I suspect that the generator can't handle full battery charging and loads simultaneously. You may also want to turn down the AC2 In breaker size for the Gen Input, this will determine how much the XW allows to be pulled through the Input terminals. Also, be sure they are using AC2 right now for the generator input, otherwise, you may need to adjust the AC1 parameters instead (or swap terminals). There is also a Gen Amps setting that can be lowered, and you can lower the max charge rate as well. >> >> I believe that Schneider treats the AC input as either a grid (can be backfed on AC1 terminals) or a generator (cannot be backfed on AC2 terminals), so I'm not sure if there is equivalent to the Outback Input modes. There are some advanced grid interconnection settings but I don't think that applies here. >> >> Let us know what you find out. >> >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:36 PM William Miller wrote: >>> Chris: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an Outback system that might be relevant: When the Outback Radian inverters would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several generator utilization settings) the charging circuits would inject large amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit. This would cause breaker tripping and other problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer. Here is a link to a write-up I did. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer >>> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running >>> >>> >>> >>> G'day All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along wiith a Schneider AGS module. >>> >>> >>> >>> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users out there. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Christopher- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jun 29 11:39:47 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:39:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <353DF6FC-E07E-4A07-B720-9167CD918C96@mavericksolar.com> Just a couple add-on comments I’d lower the AC2 breaker size setting to around 40A each inverter. Double check the generator actually goes to AC2 terminals. But, the better setting would be to change the charge percent on the Charger setting for both inverters, maybe dedicate up to 5kW to battery charging?? So, 2.5kW per inverter, about 35% each inverter. (2500W / 50V / 140A Charger). The charger is power factor corrected and generally does a great job not messing up the waveform. Also, keep in mind generator ratings are Marketing values. I would suggest 20kW x 0.80 or 16kW as a working number for the generator. You can measure the voltage and frequency of the generator under high load to get an idea how it likes being loaded down. Next, see if a timer can be installed on the hot water heater to move that load to a non-dryer time of day. That can help with overall generator loading. One customer chose 1AM and that works for them. Another chose 3PM and that works as well, especially with a larger solar array. When you get the gateway and go to do the software upgrade, the inverters will go into standby, so manually start the generator, switch to bypass mode (if necessary) so if you need power to complete the upgrade, you will have it. Good luck and enjoy! Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jun 29, 2021, at 7:51 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > >  > After doing some additional reading of the manual and with everyone's great insight I'm leaning towards the AC2 breaker sizing setting within the SCP. Given that default is 60 amps and that there are two inverters that would tell me that both charging and loads could draw as much as 120 amps. Given that the main output breaker on the 20kw gen is 80 amps I believe this might be part of the issue. Additionally, I'll be purchasing the Insight tool so that I can upgrade the firmware as the client will, once the grid is present need this to select the correct grid code to match the area's utility. In reading the firmware attachment that I believe Dave sent, what caught my eye at the end under Fixes: it states "fixes AC2 generator qualification issues". I'll be sure and update you on my findings. > > Sincere Thanks, > Christopher > >> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 7:58 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Chris, >> >> I recommend enabling Gen support mode and lowering the gen support level until the generator sounds good. I suspect that the generator can't handle full battery charging and loads simultaneously. You may also want to turn down the AC2 In breaker size for the Gen Input, this will determine how much the XW allows to be pulled through the Input terminals. Also, be sure they are using AC2 right now for the generator input, otherwise, you may need to adjust the AC1 parameters instead (or swap terminals). There is also a Gen Amps setting that can be lowered, and you can lower the max charge rate as well. >> >> I believe that Schneider treats the AC input as either a grid (can be backfed on AC1 terminals) or a generator (cannot be backfed on AC2 terminals), so I'm not sure if there is equivalent to the Outback Input modes. There are some advanced grid interconnection settings but I don't think that applies here. >> >> Let us know what you find out. >> >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:36 PM William Miller wrote: >>> Chris: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an Outback system that might be relevant: When the Outback Radian inverters would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several generator utilization settings) the charging circuits would inject large amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit. This would cause breaker tripping and other problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer. Here is a link to a write-up I did. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer >>> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running >>> >>> >>> >>> G'day All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along wiith a Schneider AGS module. >>> >>> >>> >>> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users out there. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Christopher- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jun 29 11:39:47 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:39:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <353DF6FC-E07E-4A07-B720-9167CD918C96@mavericksolar.com> Just a couple add-on comments I’d lower the AC2 breaker size setting to around 40A each inverter. Double check the generator actually goes to AC2 terminals. But, the better setting would be to change the charge percent on the Charger setting for both inverters, maybe dedicate up to 5kW to battery charging?? So, 2.5kW per inverter, about 35% each inverter. (2500W / 50V / 140A Charger). The charger is power factor corrected and generally does a great job not messing up the waveform. Also, keep in mind generator ratings are Marketing values. I would suggest 20kW x 0.80 or 16kW as a working number for the generator. You can measure the voltage and frequency of the generator under high load to get an idea how it likes being loaded down. Next, see if a timer can be installed on the hot water heater to move that load to a non-dryer time of day. That can help with overall generator loading. One customer chose 1AM and that works for them. Another chose 3PM and that works as well, especially with a larger solar array. When you get the gateway and go to do the software upgrade, the inverters will go into standby, so manually start the generator, switch to bypass mode (if necessary) so if you need power to complete the upgrade, you will have it. Good luck and enjoy! Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jun 29, 2021, at 7:51 AM, Chris Schaefer wrote: > >  > After doing some additional reading of the manual and with everyone's great insight I'm leaning towards the AC2 breaker sizing setting within the SCP. Given that default is 60 amps and that there are two inverters that would tell me that both charging and loads could draw as much as 120 amps. Given that the main output breaker on the 20kw gen is 80 amps I believe this might be part of the issue. Additionally, I'll be purchasing the Insight tool so that I can upgrade the firmware as the client will, once the grid is present need this to select the correct grid code to match the area's utility. In reading the firmware attachment that I believe Dave sent, what caught my eye at the end under Fixes: it states "fixes AC2 generator qualification issues". I'll be sure and update you on my findings. > > Sincere Thanks, > Christopher > >> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 7:58 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >> Hi Chris, >> >> I recommend enabling Gen support mode and lowering the gen support level until the generator sounds good. I suspect that the generator can't handle full battery charging and loads simultaneously. You may also want to turn down the AC2 In breaker size for the Gen Input, this will determine how much the XW allows to be pulled through the Input terminals. Also, be sure they are using AC2 right now for the generator input, otherwise, you may need to adjust the AC1 parameters instead (or swap terminals). There is also a Gen Amps setting that can be lowered, and you can lower the max charge rate as well. >> >> I believe that Schneider treats the AC input as either a grid (can be backfed on AC1 terminals) or a generator (cannot be backfed on AC2 terminals), so I'm not sure if there is equivalent to the Outback Input modes. There are some advanced grid interconnection settings but I don't think that applies here. >> >> Let us know what you find out. >> >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 3:36 PM William Miller wrote: >>> Chris: >>> >>> >>> >>> I have little Schneider experience but I will describe a problem with an Outback system that might be relevant: When the Outback Radian inverters would charge from the generator, in certain modes (there are a several generator utilization settings) the charging circuits would inject large amounts of THD onto the inverter output circuit. This would cause breaker tripping and other problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> To track this down we had to rent a pricey power quality analyzer. Here is a link to a write-up I did. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer >>> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2021 1:49 PM >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running >>> >>> >>> >>> G'day All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along wiith a Schneider AGS module. >>> >>> >>> >>> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users out there. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Christopher- >>> >>> Chris Schaefer’s >>> >>> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 >>> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 >>> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > Chris Schaefer’s > > Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 > 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 > www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 14:17:37 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 14:17:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, Had your client tried running the problematic appliances using generator direct, that is avoiding the xw entirely. That will at least tell you if it is something to do with the generator output or with the interaction of the generator with the xw that is causing the problem. Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 4:48 PM Chris Schaefer wrote: > G'day All, > > I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with > a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is > currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, > lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for > various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until > the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric > dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs > fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny > company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along > wiith a Schneider AGS module. > > Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've > reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see > no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things > out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. > > I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 > days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users > out there. > > Sincerely, > Christopher- > > Chris Schaefer’s > > > *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * > *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com > ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com > * > > > Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, > "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are > willing to work and give to those who would not." > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 15:39:59 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:39:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW PRO/AC Hydro Message-ID: Will this work? A friend has an off-grid property that is served by a Canyon Industries AC turbine w/ T&H controller. Output is around 2kw. Of course, no surge capacity there. He has recently moved there full time and is Vrbo’ing one of the cabins so power needs have increased. What I have done previously in these situations with low Kw AC turbines is install a battery based system and Iota chargers that are powered from the turbine. That’s always worked well, BUT now that we are disciples of the Discover AES/XW pairing I thought I would try this: 1) Connect the turbine’s output to AC2 and use Gen Support to enable loads above 2kw or surges. That’s placing a lot of faith in Gen Support, and if it were to not respond quick enough, well …trouble. The site is six hours away. Then my friend tells me that he would like to throttle the turbine down during the summer to conserve water, reducing output to .5-1kw. So, I got to thinking: 2) One inverter for charging only. One inverter for power output only. Charging inverter communicates with AES through Xanbus and is connected to a Gateway/Insight so that I can remotely adjust AC2 input current to scale with seasonal turbine fluctuations. Neither inverter is Synced or knows of the other’s existence. Output inverter gets a SCP for basic control and monitoring. Battery bank is connected to a Discover SOC monitor. I guess my questions are: Do you see any problems with this arrangement? Would having what amounts to an external load (the output generator) trip things up since it’s not communicating w/ the batteries? Could/Should I include the output inverter in the Xanbus loop? And/Or can I connect the output inverter to the Gateway device since it has two inputs, Xanbus 1 and 2. I’ve tried to reach Schneider to speak about this to no avail. Great product, not so great support. Thanks in Advance, Michael Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Tue Jun 29 15:50:03 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 15:50:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] schneider xw-Pro issue with genny running In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great idea Howie. This client is very hands off and the original installer did nothing in the way of educating them to the do's and don'ts. I've only been there once and when I was there the SCP basically had all of the default values. Oddly, I'm actually looking forward to returning. Christopher On Tue, Jun 29, 2021 at 2:17 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Chris, > Had your client tried running the problematic appliances using generator > direct, that is avoiding the xw entirely. That will at least tell you if it > is something to do with the generator output or with the interaction of the > generator with the xw that is causing the problem. > > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > > On Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 4:48 PM Chris Schaefer > wrote: > >> G'day All, >> >> I recently got pulled into someone else's mess on a twin xw-pro 6848 with >> a Generac 20kw air cooled genny. A little back story. The client is >> currently off grid with basically an all electric house. I know, I know, >> lol. The intent is to bring the grid in but that has been slowed for >> various reasons. On to the issue. So the electric appliances do well until >> the genny is running/charging and then certain items like the electric >> dryer don't like to operate at this time. Turn the genny off and it runs >> fine. The genny only has 900 hours on it and is serviced by a local genny >> company. The client has no internet or InsightHome, only the SCP along >> wiith a Schneider AGS module. >> >> Admittedly I'm not overly familiar with the Schneider product line. I've >> reviewed every screen on the SCP looking for further genny settings but see >> no detailed adjustment that might be able to be made, to "smooth" things >> out so that the genny will play nice with the XW Pro and the dryer. >> >> I have reached out to Schneider directly but still no response after 5 >> days. Looking for any insight (no pun intended) from the Schneider users >> out there. >> >> Sincerely, >> Christopher- >> >> Chris Schaefer’s >> >> >> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * >> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com >> ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com >> * >> >> >> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, >> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are >> willing to work and give to those who would not." >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jun 29 17:30:49 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 14:30:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW PRO/AC Hydro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Michael, You can do this with Gateway as each xanbus is isolated and you will not get the fault of (2) split phase masters on one network. I do this all of the time as it was my request to Schneider a long ways back. Others also have been asking. In a way what you want to do is the best way as the charger is not influenced by the load. It gives you a spare xw and alot of other things that make life nice. Gateway is now called Insight facility. You do not want insight home as it only has one xanbus. So when you call support (which I have zero problems with) you really need to be requesting engineering support. Support is really just for issues with warranty. They really are not there to train people as it is not their function. Not saying you need training either. There is so much of XW equipment out there that people buy a used xw and think support will help them set it up. Thanks also for your support last year also. Did you ever figure a way to get power down into that river canyon with solar up top on the ridge? We did similar here in Mariposa but did not have your constraints. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 29 Jun 2021 12:39:59 -0700, Michael Morningstar wrote: Will this work? A friend has an off-grid property that is served by a Canyon Industries AC turbine w/ T"> and monitoring. Battery bank is connected to a Discover SOC monitor. I guess my questions are: Do you see any problems with this arrangement? Would having what amounts to an external load (the output generator) trip things up since it's not communicating w/ the batteries? Could/Should I include the output inverter in the Xanbus loop? And/Or can I connect the output inverter to the Gateway device since it has two inputs, Xanbus 1 and 2. I've tried to reach Schneider to speak about this to no avail. Great product, not so great support. Thanks in Advance, Michael MICHAEL MORNINGSTAR _MORNINGSTAR ELECTRIC_ PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 19:40:04 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 16:40:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW PRO/AC Hydro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bet if you thought a little harder, you could get it even more complicated. If the hydro has both freq and voltage control then look at a dumb charger. Keeping it all independent will be safest. On the other hand l used an outback and connected a wind turbine to the AC in and the inverter just used it first. I set the max input amps and it worked and the inverter picked up the rest, l did have a water heater as a dump and it would pop the t&p sometimes. I dont know how well if at all the voltage is regulated on your controller and It can get complicated. Jerry On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 12:49 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: > Will this work? > > A friend has an off-grid property that is served by a Canyon Industries > AC turbine w/ T&H controller. Output is around 2kw. Of course, no surge > capacity there. He has recently moved there full time and is Vrbo’ing one > of the cabins so power needs have increased. > > What I have done previously in these situations with low Kw AC turbines > is install a battery based system and Iota chargers that are powered from > the turbine. That’s always worked well, BUT now that we are disciples of > the Discover AES/XW pairing I thought I would try this: > > 1) Connect the turbine’s output to AC2 and use Gen Support to enable loads > above 2kw or surges. That’s placing a lot of faith in Gen Support, and if > it were to not respond quick enough, well …trouble. The site is six hours > away. > > Then my friend tells me that he would like to throttle the turbine down > during the summer to conserve water, reducing output to .5-1kw. So, I got > to thinking: > > 2) One inverter for charging only. One inverter for power output only. > Charging inverter communicates with AES through Xanbus and is connected to > a Gateway/Insight so that I can remotely adjust AC2 input current to scale > with seasonal turbine fluctuations. Neither inverter is Synced or knows of > the other’s existence. Output inverter gets a SCP for basic control and > monitoring. Battery bank is connected to a Discover SOC monitor. > > I guess my questions are: Do you see any problems with this arrangement? > Would having what amounts to an external load (the output generator) trip > things up since it’s not communicating w/ the batteries? Could/Should I > include the output inverter in the Xanbus loop? And/Or can I connect the > output inverter to the Gateway device since it has two inputs, > Xanbus 1 and 2. > > I’ve tried to reach Schneider to speak about this to no avail. Great > product, not so great support. > > Thanks in Advance, > Michael > > > > > > *Michael **Morningstar* > > * Morningstar Electric* > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 20:57:22 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 17:57:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW PRO/AC Hydro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DF94845-4323-4EB9-B3E0-AF5F0B788591@gmail.com> > I bet if you thought a little harder, you could get it even more complicated. Ha, Ha Jerry :) Thanks Dave. Yes, the solution is a 15KV transmission line. Should have done it last year as that $150K run of copper is pushing 400K. > On Jun 29, 2021, at 4:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I bet if you thought a little harder, you could get it even more complicated. If the hydro has both freq and voltage control then look at a dumb charger. Keeping it all independent will be safest. On the other hand l used an outback and connected a wind turbine to the AC in and the inverter just used it first. I set the max input amps and it worked and the inverter picked up the rest, l did have a water heater as a dump and it would pop the t&p sometimes. I dont know how well if at all the voltage is regulated on your controller and It can get complicated. > Jerry > > On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 12:49 PM Michael Morningstar > wrote: > Will this work? > > A friend has an off-grid property that is served by a Canyon Industries AC turbine w/ T&H controller. Output is around 2kw. Of course, no surge capacity there. He has recently moved there full time and is Vrbo’ing one of the cabins so power needs have increased. > > What I have done previously in these situations with low Kw AC turbines is install a battery based system and Iota chargers that are powered from the turbine. That’s always worked well, BUT now that we are disciples of the Discover AES/XW pairing I thought I would try this: > > 1) Connect the turbine’s output to AC2 and use Gen Support to enable loads above 2kw or surges. That’s placing a lot of faith in Gen Support, and if it were to not respond quick enough, well …trouble. The site is six hours away. > > Then my friend tells me that he would like to throttle the turbine down during the summer to conserve water, reducing output to .5-1kw. So, I got to thinking: > > 2) One inverter for charging only. One inverter for power output only. Charging inverter communicates with AES through Xanbus and is connected to a Gateway/Insight so that I can remotely adjust AC2 input current to scale with seasonal turbine fluctuations. Neither inverter is Synced or knows of the other’s existence. Output inverter gets a SCP for basic control and monitoring. Battery bank is connected to a Discover SOC monitor. > > I guess my questions are: Do you see any problems with this arrangement? Would having what amounts to an external load (the output generator) trip things up since it’s not communicating w/ the batteries? Could/Should I include the output inverter in the Xanbus loop? And/Or can I connect the output inverter to the Gateway device since it has two inputs, > Xanbus 1 and 2. > > I’ve tried to reach Schneider to speak about this to no avail. Great product, not so great support. > > Thanks in Advance, > Michael > > > > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jun 30 08:50:46 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 06:50:46 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] XW PRO/AC Hydro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57EFF0D7-2888-49FB-8C78-1F21931CDD69@gmail.com> HI All I”ve worked with many high voltage AC hydros and a few AC direct. Having a 2kw one is really small, and I can see why there were issues. I recommend doing it this way,. 1. install a XW 600v controller. 2. take the output of the hydro after all safety/regulation controls and rectify it and feed it into the CC. 3. set the CC max charge rate to a bit below the output of the hydro. That way the hydro regulation will work normally. As the hydro output lowers due to lower water flows, you will have to adjust the CC output. With an AC direct hydro there is usually a failsafe device which interrupts the water flow ( flow diverter) if the HZ get too low, so you really don’t want that to happen. My concern with going through the inverter as the charger is much lower efficiency and its not as fine adjustment as the CC leading to lower outputs and more potential issues. 4. The xanbus /battery will comm with the CC for regulation, as it turns down the CC, the hydro regulation will reduce output with its dump loads, all normal. 5. and it leaves both inverters for normal use. jay peltz power > On Jun 29, 2021, at 5:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > I bet if you thought a little harder, you could get it even more complicated. If the hydro has both freq and voltage control then look at a dumb charger. Keeping it all independent will be safest. On the other hand l used an outback and connected a wind turbine to the AC in and the inverter just used it first. I set the max input amps and it worked and the inverter picked up the rest, l did have a water heater as a dump and it would pop the t&p sometimes. I dont know how well if at all the voltage is regulated on your controller and It can get complicated. > Jerry > > On Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 12:49 PM Michael Morningstar > wrote: > Will this work? > > A friend has an off-grid property that is served by a Canyon Industries AC turbine w/ T&H controller. Output is around 2kw. Of course, no surge capacity there. He has recently moved there full time and is Vrbo’ing one of the cabins so power needs have increased. > > What I have done previously in these situations with low Kw AC turbines is install a battery based system and Iota chargers that are powered from the turbine. That’s always worked well, BUT now that we are disciples of the Discover AES/XW pairing I thought I would try this: > > 1) Connect the turbine’s output to AC2 and use Gen Support to enable loads above 2kw or surges. That’s placing a lot of faith in Gen Support, and if it were to not respond quick enough, well …trouble. The site is six hours away. > > Then my friend tells me that he would like to throttle the turbine down during the summer to conserve water, reducing output to .5-1kw. So, I got to thinking: > > 2) One inverter for charging only. One inverter for power output only. Charging inverter communicates with AES through Xanbus and is connected to a Gateway/Insight so that I can remotely adjust AC2 input current to scale with seasonal turbine fluctuations. Neither inverter is Synced or knows of the other’s existence. Output inverter gets a SCP for basic control and monitoring. Battery bank is connected to a Discover SOC monitor. > > I guess my questions are: Do you see any problems with this arrangement? Would having what amounts to an external load (the output generator) trip things up since it’s not communicating w/ the batteries? Could/Should I include the output inverter in the Xanbus loop? And/Or can I connect the output inverter to the Gateway device since it has two inputs, > Xanbus 1 and 2. > > I’ve tried to reach Schneider to speak about this to no avail. Great product, not so great support. > > Thanks in Advance, > Michael > > > > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Jun 30 15:50:15 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:50:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank Message-ID: Hi All, I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be the only choice. A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Elco EP-70 datasheet.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 158251 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Jun 30 16:13:06 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 10:13:06 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] commercial BESS possibilities Message-ID: Aloha all, I need to get better educated and see what's currently out there as far as battery storage in the 120/208 and 277/480 variety in the 100 kWh to one MWh range. Any suggestions and recommendations would be appreciated. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Jun 30 17:20:03 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 21:20:03 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, this forum discussion should be helpful https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/differences-in-marine-and-rv-inverters-chargers-38195.html Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting 945-657-8132 Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2021 3:50:15 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank Hi All, I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be the only choice. A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Jun 30 17:30:34 2021 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:30:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can't find a single compatible charger, what also works it to use 2 (two) separate MPPT charge controllers each with a separate PV array inputs and connect each CC's battery to half of the battery bank.  This has worked fine for both OB and MNS controllers in past years and should with others as well I would imagine.  Set each for slightly higher voltage than 48V of course. One thing you may not be able to do might be connecting the chassis grounds together depending on how those grounds are tied to the battery negative and positive lines internally. Sometimes the internal SPD MOVs can get in the way if their voltage isn't high enough to handle the two PV voltages that are seen as in series from the MOV's standpoint.  But those MOVs are usually sized voltage wise to handle much higher voltage than, say, 300V which would he the maximum voltage both CC's would see for 150V max input controllers. You also cannot use the same remote controllers if they are not isolated from battery minus except for the controller that is on the bottom side of the battery bank. I have seen this method used many times now for 120V battery banks and also for higher voltage electric boats.   There is quite a bit of this kind of wiring out there as I remember. There are some other standards for marine inverters like,  UL 458 marine supplement and ABYC ratings. This includes neutral ground switching like in mobile apps too IIRC. Of course, just adding the word "marine" has to increase the price not matter what the product is. 😁 boB On 6/30/2021 12:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely > electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V > batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that > can run on 120V or 240V. But has anyone seen a charger that can take > solar power and directly charge a battery bank of 108V? The > alternative that I see here is to have two separate battery banks, one > for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar > charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to charge the 108V > battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be the only choice. > > A separate but related question: what is special about a marine > inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need > a large inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure > if there are "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns > about getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on > a boat? > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jun 30 17:40:44 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 14:40:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86c25ed3a2800fd0d230c26a86cbd7e0@127.0.0.1> If the boat is insured or is going to leave US waters and hopes to be insured, better CYA it and check this out. NMEA may be of help also. https://www.nmea.org/content/STANDARDS/nmea_2000_certified_products We did Marine electronics on the side and cruised our sailboat for a decade. It was great until we lost insurance and then learned to live with it. It got good again. Same thing now with offgrid and wildfires. Whatever I get into ends up with loss of insurance. Good Luck ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:50:15 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be the only choice. A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? Cheers, Dave -- [3] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com [4] c: (607) 288-2898 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://www.sungineersolar.com/ [4] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jun 30 18:21:24 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2021 15:21:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] commercial BESS possibilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Blue planet got a 277/480 solution On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 1:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all, > > I need to get better educated and see what's currently out there as far as > battery storage in the 120/208 and 277/480 variety in the 100 kWh to one > MWh range. > > Any suggestions and recommendations would be appreciated. > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jul 1 11:21:51 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 11:21:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bob, This is a very interesting idea to have two separate battery banks in series. I find it odd though that this particular motor's datasheet calls for 9 12V batteries. I suppose that I could have one charge controller set for 48V and the other set for 60V. Although this will also pose the problem of trying to run the house loads - if I have two 48V inverters that still leaves one battery that will get loaded less than all the others. And it seems that everyone else is pointing to the fact that it seems important to keep the neutral and ground internally separated in the inverter in a boat, so I'll stick to marine inverters for this one. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 5:30 PM bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > If you can't find a single compatible charger, what also works it to use 2 > (two) separate > > MPPT charge controllers each with a separate PV array inputs and connect > each CC's > battery to half of the battery bank. This has worked fine for both OB and > MNS controllers > in past years and should with others as well I would imagine. Set each > for slightly higher > voltage than 48V of course. > > One thing you may not be able to do might be connecting the chassis > grounds together > depending on how those grounds are tied to the battery negative and > positive lines internally. > > Sometimes the internal SPD MOVs can get in the way if their voltage isn't > high enough to handle > the two PV voltages that are seen as in series from the MOV's standpoint. > But those MOVs are > usually sized voltage wise to handle much higher voltage than, say, 300V > which would he the maximum > voltage both CC's would see for 150V max input controllers. > > You also cannot use the same remote controllers if they are not isolated > from battery minus except for > the controller that is on the bottom side of the battery bank. > > I have seen this method used many times now for 120V battery banks and > also for higher voltage > electric boats. There is quite a bit of this kind of wiring out there as > I remember. > > There are some other standards for marine inverters like, UL 458 marine > supplement and ABYC ratings. > > This includes neutral ground switching like in mobile apps too IIRC. > > Of course, just adding the word "marine" has to increase the price not > matter what the product is. > 😁 > > boB > > > > On 6/30/2021 12:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a > boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. > The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. > But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge > a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two > separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we > would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to > charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be > the only choice. > > A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? > If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large > inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are > "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting > wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Jul 1 11:52:03 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2021 08:52:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8934b002b1500de7dcde16e24c9fbcbb@127.0.0.1> Less is more offgrid. On a boat, if it is oceangoing, it is a life or death kind of world. A fire at sea probably will happen at night in bad seas. Not sure if this is your clients scenario for their use. An all electric boat sounds a bit scary. How will they get ashore? I use to give the owner a schematic that showed the location on the boat of electrical devices, wiring, and disco's. Hopefully this is for a lake sailor. Although one of the round the world guys I know tells me that he was never as scared as he was on a lake one day...Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 11:21:51 -0400, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Bob, This is a very interesting idea to have two separate battery banks in series. I find it odd though that this particular motor's datasheet calls for 9 12V batteries. I suppose that I could have one charge controller set for 48V and the other set for 60V. Although this will also pose the problem of trying to run the house loads - if I have two 48V inverters that still leaves one battery that will get loaded less than all the others. And it seems that everyone else is pointing to the fact that it seems important to keep the neutral and ground internally separated in the inverter in a boat, so I'll stick to marine inverters for this one. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 5:30 PM bob at midnitesolar.com [3] wrote: If you can't find a single compatible charger, what also works it to use 2 (two) separate MPPT charge controllers each with a separate PV array inputs and connect each CC's battery to half of the battery bank. This has worked fine for both OB and MNS controllers in past years and should with others as well I would imagine. Set each for slightly higher voltage than 48V of course. One thing you may not be able to do might be connecting the chassis grounds together depending on how those grounds are tied to the battery negative and positive lines internally. Sometimes the internal SPD MOVs can get in the way if their voltage isn't high enough to handle the two PV voltages that are seen as in series from the MOV's standpoint. But those MOVs are usually sized voltage wise to handle much higher voltage than, say, 300V which would he the maximum voltage both CC's would see for 150V max input controllers. You also cannot use the same remote controllers if they are not isolated from battery minus except for the controller that is on the bottom side of the battery bank. I have seen this method used many times now for 120V battery banks and also for higher voltage electric boats. There is quite a bit of this kind of wiring out there as I remember. There are some other standards for marine inverters like, UL 458 marine supplement and ABYC ratings. This includes neutral ground switching like in mobile apps too IIRC. Of course, just adding the word "marine" has to increase the price not matter what the product is. 😁 boB On 6/30/2021 12:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be the only choice. A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? Cheers, Dave -- [5] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com [6] c: (607) 288-2898 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [7] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules vertical-align: middle; width: 105px; height: auto;" src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/program/blocked.gif" alt="Logo" width="105" border="0" /> [14] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com [15] c: (607) 288-2898 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:bob at midnitesolar.com [4] mailto:bob at midnitesolar.com [5] https://www.sungineersolar.com/ [6] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ [7] http://re-wrenches.org [8] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] https://www.sungineersolar.com/ [15] http://www.sungineersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Jul 1 12:00:25 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 12:00:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: <8934b002b1500de7dcde16e24c9fbcbb@127.0.0.1> References: <8934b002b1500de7dcde16e24c9fbcbb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Dave, This is for a boat that will stay mostly on the finger lakes and in the Erie Canal system in upstate NY. Definitely not an ocean boat. But the plan is to convert it to a full time residence, potentially in the winter as well. Cheers, Dave On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 11:52 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Less is more offgrid. On a boat, if it is oceangoing, it is a life or > death kind of world. A fire at sea probably will happen at night in bad > seas. Not sure if this is your clients scenario for their use. An all > electric boat sounds a bit scary. How will they get ashore? I use to give > the owner a schematic that showed the location on the boat of electrical > devices, wiring, and disco's. > > Hopefully this is for a lake sailor. Although one of the round the world > guys I know tells me that he was never as scared as he was on a lake one > day...Good Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 11:21:51 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Bob, > This is a very interesting idea to have two separate battery banks in > series. I find it odd though that this particular motor's datasheet calls > for 9 12V batteries. I suppose that I could have one charge controller set > for 48V and the other set for 60V. Although this will also pose the problem > of trying to run the house loads - if I have two 48V inverters that still > leaves one battery that will get loaded less than all the others. > > And it seems that everyone else is pointing to the fact that it seems > important to keep the neutral and ground internally separated in the > inverter in a boat, so I'll stick to marine inverters for this one. > Cheers, > Dave > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 5:30 PM bob at midnitesolar.com > wrote: > >> >> If you can't find a single compatible charger, what also works it to use >> 2 (two) separate >> >> MPPT charge controllers each with a separate PV array inputs and connect >> each CC's >> battery to half of the battery bank. This has worked fine for both OB >> and MNS controllers >> in past years and should with others as well I would imagine. Set each >> for slightly higher >> voltage than 48V of course. >> >> One thing you may not be able to do might be connecting the chassis >> grounds together >> depending on how those grounds are tied to the battery negative and >> positive lines internally. >> >> Sometimes the internal SPD MOVs can get in the way if their voltage isn't >> high enough to handle >> the two PV voltages that are seen as in series from the MOV's >> standpoint. But those MOVs are >> usually sized voltage wise to handle much higher voltage than, say, 300V >> which would he the maximum >> voltage both CC's would see for 150V max input controllers. >> >> You also cannot use the same remote controllers if they are not isolated >> from battery minus except for >> the controller that is on the bottom side of the battery bank. >> >> I have seen this method used many times now for 120V battery banks and >> also for higher voltage >> electric boats. There is quite a bit of this kind of wiring out there >> as I remember. >> >> There are some other standards for marine inverters like, UL 458 marine >> supplement and ABYC ratings. >> >> This includes neutral ground switching like in mobile apps too IIRC. >> >> Of course, just adding the word "marine" has to increase the price not >> matter what the product is. >> 😁 >> >> boB >> >> >> >> On 6/30/2021 12:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a >> boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. >> The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. >> But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge >> a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two >> separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we >> would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to >> charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be >> the only choice. >> >> A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? >> If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large >> inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are >> "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting >> wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 288-2898 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Thu Jul 1 16:54:31 2021 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 13:54:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <8934b002b1500de7dcde16e24c9fbcbb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <781767f2-2853-ad3d-188f-4717690807a5@midnitesolar.com> Normally you definitely do not want to tap a high voltage battery for use at  say, 12 or in this case, maybe 48V when the top end is 108V nominal. But with a separate charger for the house inverter, (48V ?),  and the 60V side, it would work a lot better than just using a single 108V charger and tapping down at 48V.  As long as there is enough charging power for both battery sides the two halves should stay balanced. boB On 7/1/2021 9:00 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Dave, > This is for a boat that will stay mostly on the finger lakes and in > the Erie Canal system in upstate NY. Definitely not an ocean boat. But > the plan is to convert it to a full time residence, potentially in the > winter as well. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 11:52 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > > wrote: > > Less is more offgrid. On a boat, if it is oceangoing, it is a life > or death kind of world. A fire at sea probably will happen at > night in bad seas. Not sure if this is your clients scenario for > their use. An all electric boat sounds a bit scary. How will they > get ashore? I use to give the owner a schematic that showed the > location on the boat of electrical devices, wiring, and disco's. > > Hopefully this is for a lake sailor. Although one of the round the > world guys I know tells me that he was never as scared as he was > on a lake one day...Good Luck! > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 11:21:51 -0400, Dave Tedeyan > > wrote: > >> Bob, >> This is a very interesting idea to have two separate battery >> banks in series. I find it odd though that this particular >> motor's datasheet calls for 9 12V batteries. I suppose that I >> could have one charge controller set for 48V and the other set >> for 60V. Although this will also pose the problem of trying to >> run the house loads - if I have two 48V inverters that still >> leaves one battery that will get loaded less than all the others. >> And it seems that everyone else is pointing to the fact that it >> seems important to keep the neutral and ground internally >> separated in the inverter in a boat, so I'll stick to marine >> inverters for this one. >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Jun 30, 2021 at 5:30 PM bob at midnitesolar.com >> > > wrote: >> >> >> If you can't find a single compatible charger, what also >> works it to use 2 (two) separate >> >> MPPT charge controllers each with a separate PV array inputs >> and connect each CC's >> battery to half of the battery bank.  This has worked fine >> for both OB and MNS controllers >> in past years and should with others as well I would >> imagine.  Set each for slightly higher >> voltage than 48V of course. >> >> One thing you may not be able to do might be connecting the >> chassis grounds together >> depending on how those grounds are tied to the battery >> negative and positive lines internally. >> >> Sometimes the internal SPD MOVs can get in the way if their >> voltage isn't high enough to handle >> the two PV voltages that are seen as in series from the MOV's >> standpoint.  But those MOVs are >> usually sized voltage wise to handle much higher voltage >> than, say, 300V which would he the maximum >> voltage both CC's would see for 150V max input controllers. >> >> You also cannot use the same remote controllers if they are >> not isolated from battery minus except for >> the controller that is on the bottom side of the battery bank. >> >> I have seen this method used many times now for 120V battery >> banks and also for higher voltage >> electric boats.   There is quite a bit of this kind of wiring >> out there as I remember. >> >> There are some other standards for marine inverters like,  UL >> 458 marine supplement and ABYC ratings. >> >> This includes neutral ground switching like in mobile apps >> too IIRC. >> >> Of course, just adding the word "marine" has to increase the >> price not matter what the product is. >> 😁 >> >> boB >> >> >> >> On 6/30/2021 12:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> I am going to be working with someone who plans to >>> completely electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to >>> run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer >>> recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. But has >>> anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly >>> charge a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see >>> here is to have two separate battery banks, one for the >>> motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar >>> charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to >>> charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although >>> that may be the only choice. >>> A separate but related question: what is special about a >>> marine inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery >>> bank, we will need a large inverter to handle this plus >>> other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are "marine" >>> inverters this large. And so other than concerns about >>> getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark >>> on a boat? >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> -- >>> Logo >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> -- >> Logo >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 288-2898 >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jul 1 17:18:06 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:18:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23057700-31AB-4D90-8FC7-E576727CC6F6@starlightsolar.com> Just thought I would throw out that with an Elite Power Solutions Li-ion battery system you can connect a PV solar source directly to the battery, no PV controller needed. The EMS will monitor each cell and open the charge relay when the battery is full. The dual solenoid controller will allow loads to operate uninterrupted. Use a DC down converter to share power to the 48V battery or loads. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 30, 2021, at 1:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Hi All, I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be the only choice. A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wapalco at rockisland.com Thu Jul 1 17:48:54 2021 From: wapalco at rockisland.com (Rockisland) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 14:48:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: <23057700-31AB-4D90-8FC7-E576727CC6F6@starlightsolar.com> References: <23057700-31AB-4D90-8FC7-E576727CC6F6@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry, So no MPPT in that situation and how much extra Vmp on the PV’s is recommended above operating battery Voltage? Thanks, Jason RemoteEnergy.org > On Jul 1, 2021, at 2:18 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > Just thought I would throw out that with an Elite Power Solutions Li-ion battery system you can connect a PV solar source directly to the battery, no PV controller needed. The EMS will monitor each cell and open the charge relay when the battery is full. The dual solenoid controller will allow loads to operate uninterrupted. > > Use a DC down converter to share power to the 48V battery or loads. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jun 30, 2021, at 1:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be the only choice. > > A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Thu Jul 1 19:20:08 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 17:20:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging a 108V battery bank In-Reply-To: References: <23057700-31AB-4D90-8FC7-E576727CC6F6@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, Considering temperature affect on voltage, you would choose something just above the Vmp. As the array becomes illuminated, voltage will rise but the battery is always a full load to the PV array. Voltage will never go higher than battery OV protection while connected or the open circuit voltage when disconnected. If the Vmp is close to the battery max voltage, MPPT does not matter as the gains are small. The battery can be charged at 3C so current is not an issue either. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 1, 2021, at 3:48 PM, Rockisland wrote: Hi Larry, So no MPPT in that situation and how much extra Vmp on the PV’s is recommended above operating battery Voltage? Thanks, Jason RemoteEnergy.org > On Jul 1, 2021, at 2:18 PM, larry at starlightsolar.com wrote: > > Just thought I would throw out that with an Elite Power Solutions Li-ion battery system you can connect a PV solar source directly to the battery, no PV controller needed. The EMS will monitor each cell and open the charge relay when the battery is full. The dual solenoid controller will allow loads to operate uninterrupted. > > Use a DC down converter to share power to the 48V battery or loads. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > On Jun 30, 2021, at 1:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am going to be working with someone who plans to completely electrify a boat. The electric motor is meant to run on nine 12V batteries, or 108V. The motor manufacturer recommends a charger that can run on 120V or 240V. But has anyone seen a charger that can take solar power and directly charge a battery bank of 108V? The alternative that I see here is to have two separate battery banks, one for the motor, and one for house loads. Then we would have the solar charge a 48V battery bank, and then use an inverter to charge the 108V battery bank. It seems inefficient, although that may be the only choice. > > A separate but related question: what is special about a marine inverter? If there is a 5kw charger for the battery bank, we will need a large inverter to handle this plus other AC loads, and I am not sure if there are "marine" inverters this large. And so other than concerns about getting wet, is there harm to putting a Radian, or a Sol-Ark on a boat? > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Tue Jul 6 07:59:19 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 11:59:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Drain Back Solar Thermal Message-ID: Wrenches Anyone with experience in design of evac tube systems with atmospheric tanks, can you please contact me off list? I need some advice / schematics for heat dissipation strategies. Regards, Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Jul 6 13:57:29 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 13:57:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Battery Storage System Opinion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have designed our first Enphase approved battery system, but I don't recall any discussion on them here. I'd like to hear from installers that have installed the technology.  Could anyone with experience let me know their opinion of the package?  Thank you, Chris --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 17:11:03 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 14:11:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Battery Storage System Opinion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From what l hear, They just raised the price, lead time is next year, the only 25 year warranty is on the inverters, Jerry On Tue, Jul 6, 2021, 10:57 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > We have designed our first Enphase approved battery system, but I don't > recall any discussion on them here. I'd like to hear from installers that > have installed the technology. Could anyone with experience let me know > their opinion of the package? Thank you, Chris > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Wed Jul 7 19:54:33 2021 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2021 16:54:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext 80 600v MPPT fan replacement Message-ID: <17a83650567.f4a4a494120238.259200470621054436@greenwired.com> Anyone have any experience changing out the fans on a Conext 80 600v MPPT charge controller? I have a supplier where I can get the internal fans for the Conext XW inverters but I dont know if they are the same or not. Thanks, Andrew Perkins Greenwired P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd Redway, CA 95560 http://www.greenwired.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1596050015677007_1701277005.png Type: image/png Size: 16298 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Wed Jul 7 22:39:10 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 21:39:10 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext 80 600v MPPT fan replacement In-Reply-To: <17a83650567.f4a4a494120238.259200470621054436@greenwired.com> References: <17a83650567.f4a4a494120238.259200470621054436@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <06C6491D-A5A8-4090-B935-42E6C27B9B0C@mavericksolar.com> Andrew The charge controller and inverter use different fans. The CC I’ve opened up uses a 4” fan usually model AD0812FB-71(N). I have ordered several brands that are cross compatible. Recently ordered Delta FFB0812VH-T500 from Mouser.com. It is fine to leave the charge controller in place (powered down), remove the four philips head screws holding the fan bracket in place on the top of the charge controller. Cut the wires from the fans (keep the pairs together), mount the new fans to the bracket and splice the new fans to the "fan harness" using telco crimps (UY K1 Connectors [Amazon]). If you want to be extra careful, you can take the CC off the wall and open it up. The fan wires go down a hole onto the PCB and have press in connectors that receive the wire directly from the fan (assuming the wire is long enough). The Inverter fan is 6” and I have those details on another computer… let me know if you need that as well. Also, since you are at the customer site, there is a filter element covering that inverter fan which is located directly on the bottom of the inverter and I am sure it might need to be cleaned while you are there. Hopefully it got installed. ;-) Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jul 7, 2021, at 6:54 PM, Andrew Perkins wrote: > >  > Anyone have any experience changing out the fans on a Conext 80 600v MPPT charge controller? I have a supplier where I can get the internal fans for the Conext XW inverters but I dont know if they are the same or not. > > Thanks, > > Andrew Perkins > Greenwired > P: 707-923-2001 ext. 100 > 1150 #1 Evergreen Rd > Redway, CA 95560 > www.greenwired.com > <1596050015677007_1701277005.png> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solman at legacysolar.com Mon Jul 12 19:39:13 2021 From: solman at legacysolar.com (Kristopher Schmid) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 18:39:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000 v combiners Message-ID: Hi All, Just wondering what you commercial installers are using for 1,000 volt combiners. I don't work in this realm often. I am looking at Solar BOS. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks, Kris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 20:31:05 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 18:31:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000 v combiners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kris Midnite now sells 1000v combiners They don’t show 1000v combiner/disconnects. For that you Might have to use solar BOS I think. Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 12, 2021, at 5:39 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote: > >  > Hi All, > > Just wondering what you commercial installers are using for 1,000 volt combiners. I don't work in this realm often. I am looking at Solar BOS. Any recommendations would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Kris > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From agjahp at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 22:58:45 2021 From: agjahp at gmail.com (Alex Jahp) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 20:58:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000 v combiners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, Also - what about 1000VDC rated terminal blocks (from a NRTL)? What can be used to transition wire outside of a 1000VDC rated combiner? Take care! On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 7:39 PM Jay wrote: > Hi Kris > > Midnite now sells 1000v combiners > > They don’t show 1000v combiner/disconnects. For that you Might have to use > solar BOS I think. > > Jay > Peltz power. > > > On Jul 12, 2021, at 5:39 PM, Kristopher Schmid > wrote: > > > >  > > Hi All, > > > > Just wondering what you commercial installers are using for 1,000 volt > combiners. I don't work in this realm often. I am looking at Solar BOS. > Any recommendations would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Kris > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Jul 14 13:16:31 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:16:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells Message-ID: <8a57cd30-d0b8-2857-50f4-dd77fa2c9335@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Good Folks, I've got a 2300 AH AGM pack of 2 Volt cells that is showing signs of premature aging (only 600 cycles) and I need to test the AH capacity of each cell to help the customer make decisions going forward of whether to replace individual lagging cells or the whole pack. What equipment have folks used to do AHour tests on 2 Volt 2300 AH cells?  I've done plenty of load testing on 6, 12, 24 and 48 volt packs as a whole but am not sure what's my best approach is for 2 volt individual tests. I know I could put a  resistance load and then use an AHour integrator unit - but does anyone know of what unit and what resistive load I'd use at 2 volts?  That would be a large device at that voltage to get any appreciative wattage! - I'd like to do a 10 hour test at most. I see 2 V test units on the web but they only appear to be hooked up for a small amount of time - so they can't be testing full to empty discharge AHours. Thanks! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design www.villagepowerdesign.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 14 13:32:23 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:32:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <8a57cd30-d0b8-2857-50f4-dd77fa2c9335@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <8a57cd30-d0b8-2857-50f4-dd77fa2c9335@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <1a85fbbda4f29fcbda2c1fac440b2d22@127.0.0.1> I can ask my battery guy! He is the best with AGM and a dealer for full river and concord. He does this alot! Saves a bunch. He always says that most of the warranty is just a full/corrective charge and 80% are good. Undercharging is the problem. Very very few are overcharged. His words! I just replace the bank, no time to play with this stuff. However, I just do the same thing I do with any bank of individual batteries. I put a large load on the bank with the inverter and look at each cells voltage. You may have done this... The hard part is, depending on the make, is pulling the cell and doing a full charge and EQ if it is the make that allows it. The other hard part is just getting batteries these days. I just heard Trojan is 8+ months out. You know what Steve from RollsSurrette has said. 8 weeks I think. The easy part, what make is your cell? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:16:31 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Good Folks, I've got a 2300 AH AGM pack of 2 Volt cells that is showing signs of premature aging (only 600 cycles) and I need to test the AH capacity of each cell to help the customer make decisions going forward of whether to replace individual lagging cells or the whole pack. What equipment have folks used to do AHour tests on 2 Volt 2300 AH cells? I've done plenty of load testing on 6, 12, 24 and 48 volt packs as a whole but am not sure what's my best approach is for 2 volt individual tests. I know I could put a resistance load and then use an AHour integrator unit - but does anyone know of what unit and what resistive load I'd use at 2 volts? That would be a large device at that voltage to get any appreciative wattage! - I'd like to do a 10 hour test at most. I see 2 V test units on the web but they only appear to be hooked up for a small amount of time - so they can't be testing full to empty discharge AHours. Thanks! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design www.villagepowerdesign.com [3] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jul 14 14:00:18 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:00:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <1a85fbbda4f29fcbda2c1fac440b2d22@127.0.0.1> References: <8a57cd30-d0b8-2857-50f4-dd77fa2c9335@villagepowerdesign.com> <1a85fbbda4f29fcbda2c1fac440b2d22@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: The easiest way to do so is to connect it to a 12, 24, or 48-volt system, charge them to full, and run a field load test at the C10 or C5 rate. If the battery is 2300 ah, the C10 rate of discharge is going to be around 200 amps or so... depending on the manufacturer. You would charge the bank to what you think is full When current going into a 2300 ah bank is less than 2% for 60 mins the batteries aren't really accepting a charge. You then put the load current on the batteries by simply running uploads, you will need to measure the current and adjust loads throughout the test to stay as close to that 200 amps or so range. Note the start time so you can calc capacity at the end. While you are running loads you monitor voltages of each cell while under load every 30-60 mins. I check every 30 mins just in case there is a premature dropout or you know you have a very weak cell. When the cell voltage drops to 1.80 vpc you stop the clock and shut off all loads. The cell voltages should recover over the next 15-30 mins back to approx 2vpc. If you got 4 to 5 hours of time before hitting the 1.80vpc then the bank is full capacity. and you are good to go... If you only had about 2-3 hours of time, then the battery bank or dropping cells are failing and either cell replacement or total replacement should be considered. If you saw a cell or multiple cells collapse or the cell's voltages weren't within .2 to .3 volts you've got issues with those cells. Sometimes cycling 30-40% followed by full charges will help rectify this... Another way to do this is to buy a high rate linear load tester, the issue with these is cost and size, the smallest I've seen is the size of a mini-fridge, and they start out at about 25K and go up from there... Please do not use a starting battery load tester... It won't really give you very accurate results. Lead times are a whole other story... so much so that we've even made a web page on our website... https://rollsbattery.com/orders/ We update this every two weeks. The worst lead time is the most common battery we sell is the Series 4000, and 4500 Monoblock, starting about 18th months ago sales of these batteries have gone thru the roof due to extremely high demand. Now, these are for orders direct thru Surrette Battery, if you are ordering thru a distributor, they should have batteries in their Pipeline, this means lead times are based on their ordering/stocking levels. Hope this helps. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 10:32 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > I can ask my battery guy! He is the best with AGM and a dealer for full > river and concord. He does this alot! Saves a bunch. He always says that > most of the warranty is just a full/corrective charge and 80% are good. > Undercharging is the problem. Very very few are overcharged. His words! I > just replace the bank, no time to play with this stuff. > > However, I just do the same thing I do with any bank of individual > batteries. I put a large load on the bank with the inverter and look at > each cells voltage. You may have done this... > > The hard part is, depending on the make, is pulling the cell and doing a > full charge and EQ if it is the make that allows it. > > The other hard part is just getting batteries these days. I just heard > Trojan is 8+ months out. You know what Steve from RollsSurrette has said. 8 > weeks I think. > > The easy part, what make is your cell? > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:16:31 -0700, Jeff Clearwater < > jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com> wrote: > > Hey Good Folks, > > I've got a 2300 AH AGM pack of 2 Volt cells that is showing signs of > premature aging (only 600 cycles) and I need to test the AH capacity of > each cell to help the customer make decisions going forward of whether to > replace individual lagging cells or the whole pack. > > What equipment have folks used to do AHour tests on 2 Volt 2300 AH cells? > I've done plenty of load testing on 6, 12, 24 and 48 volt packs as a whole > but am not sure what's my best approach is for 2 volt individual tests. > > I know I could put a resistance load and then use an AHour integrator > unit - but does anyone know of what unit and what resistive load I'd use at > 2 volts? That would be a large device at that voltage to get any > appreciative wattage! - I'd like to do a 10 hour test at most. > > I see 2 V test units on the web but they only appear to be hooked up for a > small amount of time - so they can't be testing full to empty discharge > AHours. > > Thanks! > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Jul 14 14:32:54 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 11:32:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <1a85fbbda4f29fcbda2c1fac440b2d22@127.0.0.1> References: <8a57cd30-d0b8-2857-50f4-dd77fa2c9335@villagepowerdesign.com> <1a85fbbda4f29fcbda2c1fac440b2d22@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <2d31acd6-c915-a632-fcb5-4296c23b4c13@villagepowerdesign.com> Thanks Dave - yes I've done whole pack load testing.  The deal with this pack though is that it is so remote and the expense of "just replace the pack" in terms of shipping and labor is extreme - (tiny Bahaman island with only regular small boat access} And if it was toward the end of the pack's life anyway I'd not mess around - but with only 600 well documented cylces on a $25K pack - and with probably half that again in shipping and labor to replace - I'm needing to carefully document the lagging cells for either a warranty claim or at least to make good decisions going forward. It's easy to access the cells as this is an EnergyCell AGM stack with easily accessible terminals and removable terminal bars. If we replace we'd go LFP - on the order of 100 KWHrs.  So no small decision for the customer - so worth the testing. Thanks! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design www.villagepowerdesign.com > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > July 14, 2021 at 10:32 AM > > I can ask my battery guy! He is the best with AGM and a dealer for > full river and concord. He does this alot! Saves a bunch. He always > says that most of the warranty is just a full/corrective charge and > 80% are good. Undercharging is the problem. Very very few are > overcharged. His words! I just replace the bank, no time to play with > this stuff. > > However, I just do the same thing I do with any bank of individual > batteries. I put a large load on the bank with the inverter and look > at each cells voltage. You may have done this... > > The hard part is, depending on the make, is pulling the cell and doing > a full charge and EQ if it is the make that allows it. > > The other hard part is just getting batteries these days. I just heard > Trojan is 8+ months out. You know what Steve from RollsSurrette has > said. 8 weeks I think. > > The easy part, what make is your cell? > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:16:31 -0700, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Jeff Clearwater > July 14, 2021 at 10:16 AM > Hey Good Folks, > > I've got a 2300 AH AGM pack of 2 Volt cells that is showing signs of > premature aging (only 600 cycles) and I need to test the AH capacity > of each cell to help the customer make decisions going forward of > whether to replace individual lagging cells or the whole pack. > > What equipment have folks used to do AHour tests on 2 Volt 2300 AH > cells?  I've done plenty of load testing on 6, 12, 24 and 48 volt > packs as a whole but am not sure what's my best approach is for 2 volt > individual tests. > > I know I could put a  resistance load and then use an AHour integrator > unit - but does anyone know of what unit and what resistive load I'd > use at 2 volts?  That would be a large device at that voltage to get > any appreciative wattage! - I'd like to do a 10 hour test at most. > > I see 2 V test units on the web but they only appear to be hooked up > for a small amount of time - so they can't be testing full to empty > discharge AHours. > > Thanks! > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 16:15:58 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:15:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <2d31acd6-c915-a632-fcb5-4296c23b4c13@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <2d31acd6-c915-a632-fcb5-4296c23b4c13@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Hi Jeff If it’s the energy cell xlc from Outback then it shows an eq requirement. If not that battery, most industrial quality VRLA I’ve seen have a eq requirement, conditioning charge or something similar. And the lowering of capacity is common from experience. Question What equipment/brand is charging it? Jay Peltz power > On Jul 14, 2021, at 1:49 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: > >  Thanks Dave - yes I've done whole pack load testing. The deal with this pack though is that it is so remote and the expense of "just replace the pack" in terms of shipping and labor is extreme - (tiny Bahaman island with only regular small boat access} > > And if it was toward the end of the pack's life anyway I'd not mess around - but with only 600 well documented cylces on a $25K pack - and with probably half that again in shipping and labor to replace - I'm needing to carefully document the lagging cells for either a warranty claim or at least to make good decisions going forward. > > It's easy to access the cells as this is an EnergyCell AGM stack with easily accessible terminals and removable terminal bars. > > If we replace we'd go LFP - on the order of 100 KWHrs. So no small decision for the customer - so worth the testing. > > Thanks! > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > > >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar July 14, 2021 at 10:32 AM >> I can ask my battery guy! He is the best with AGM and a dealer for full river and concord. He does this alot! Saves a bunch. He always says that most of the warranty is just a full/corrective charge and 80% are good. Undercharging is the problem. Very very few are overcharged. His words! I just replace the bank, no time to play with this stuff. >> >> However, I just do the same thing I do with any bank of individual batteries. I put a large load on the bank with the inverter and look at each cells voltage. You may have done this... >> >> The hard part is, depending on the make, is pulling the cell and doing a full charge and EQ if it is the make that allows it. >> >> The other hard part is just getting batteries these days. I just heard Trojan is 8+ months out. You know what Steve from RollsSurrette has said. 8 weeks I think. >> >> The easy part, what make is your cell? >> >> >> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060 >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:16:31 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> >> Jeff Clearwater July 14, 2021 at 10:16 AM >> Hey Good Folks, >> >> I've got a 2300 AH AGM pack of 2 Volt cells that is showing signs of premature aging (only 600 cycles) and I need to test the AH capacity of each cell to help the customer make decisions going forward of whether to replace individual lagging cells or the whole pack. >> >> What equipment have folks used to do AHour tests on 2 Volt 2300 AH cells? I've done plenty of load testing on 6, 12, 24 and 48 volt packs as a whole but am not sure what's my best approach is for 2 volt individual tests. >> >> I know I could put a resistance load and then use an AHour integrator unit - but does anyone know of what unit and what resistive load I'd use at 2 volts? That would be a large device at that voltage to get any appreciative wattage! - I'd like to do a 10 hour test at most. >> >> I see 2 V test units on the web but they only appear to be hooked up for a small amount of time - so they can't be testing full to empty discharge AHours. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> www.villagepowerdesign.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Jul 14 16:42:23 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:42:23 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: References: <2d31acd6-c915-a632-fcb5-4296c23b4c13@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <64de3bd8-a4f0-9e86-b435-7d58197b3498@villagepowerdesign.com> Hey Jay, Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles.  When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated.  But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have.  So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc.  I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours)  but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. Thoughts? Best, Jeff > Jay > July 14, 2021 at 1:15 PM > Hi Jeff > > If it’s the energy cell xlc from Outback then it shows an eq requirement. > > If not that battery, most industrial quality VRLA  I’ve seen have a eq > requirement, conditioning charge or something similar. > And the lowering of capacity is common from experience. > > Question > What equipment/brand  is charging it? > > Jay > > Peltz power > > Jeff Clearwater > July 14, 2021 at 11:32 AM > Thanks Dave - yes I've done whole pack load testing.  The deal with > this pack though is that it is so remote and the expense of "just > replace the pack" in terms of shipping and labor is extreme - (tiny > Bahaman island with only regular small boat access} > > And if it was toward the end of the pack's life anyway I'd not mess > around - but with only 600 well documented cylces on a $25K pack - and > with probably half that again in shipping and labor to replace - I'm > needing to carefully document the lagging cells for either a warranty > claim or at least to make good decisions going forward. > > It's easy to access the cells as this is an EnergyCell AGM stack with > easily accessible terminals and removable terminal bars. > > If we replace we'd go LFP - on the order of 100 KWHrs.  So no small > decision for the customer - so worth the testing. > > Thanks! > > Jeff Clearwater > Village Power Design > www.villagepowerdesign.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Wed Jul 14 17:14:55 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:14:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <64de3bd8-a4f0-9e86-b435-7d58197b3498@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Has an infra-red thermometer been used on every battery's terminals to check for resistance? I recall, although this might be my own thoughts, that internal resistance of each cell can be measured with an ohm meter...Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: Jeff Clearwater Date: 7/14/21 1:42 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells Hey Jay, Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles.  When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque.   So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated.  But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have.  So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc.  I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours)  but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. Thoughts? Best, Jeff Jay July 14, 2021 at 1:15 PM Hi JeffIf it’s the energy cell xlc from Outback then it shows an eq requirement. If not that battery, most industrial quality VRLA  I’ve seen have a eq requirement, conditioning charge or something similar. And the lowering of capacity is common from experience. QuestionWhat equipment/brand  is charging it?JayPeltz power Jeff Clearwater July 14, 2021 at 11:32 AM Thanks Dave - yes I've done whole pack load testing.  The deal with this pack though is that it is so remote and the expense of "just replace the pack" in terms of shipping and labor is extreme - (tiny Bahaman island with only regular small boat access} And if it was toward the end of the pack's life anyway I'd not mess around - but with only 600 well documented cylces on a $25K pack - and with probably half that again in shipping and labor to replace - I'm needing to carefully document the lagging cells for either a warranty claim or at least to make good decisions going forward. It's easy to access the cells as this is an EnergyCell AGM stack with easily accessible terminals and removable terminal bars. If we replace we'd go LFP - on the order of 100 KWHrs.  So no small decision for the customer - so worth the testing. Thanks! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design www.villagepowerdesign.com _______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 14 17:41:42 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:41:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <64de3bd8-a4f0-9e86-b435-7d58197b3498@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <2d31acd6-c915-a632-fcb5-4296c23b4c13@villagepowerdesign.com> <64de3bd8-a4f0-9e86-b435-7d58197b3498@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <8ad4bb8d76ecb4361d4924c699c18955@127.0.0.1> Not sure about SMA but XW and Radian would definatley change the absorb time. Having the lower AH number would be a longer absorb time on an XW. That would be a good thing as it would get the full programmed absorb instead of 2% of the programmed AH. It is a whichever comes first algorithm. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:42:23 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Jay, Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles. When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated. But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have. So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc. I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours) but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. Thoughts? Best, Jeff Jay [3] July 14, 2021 at 1:15 PM Hi Jeff If it's the energy cell xlc from Outback then it shows an eq requirement. If not that battery, most industrial quality VRLA I've seen have a eq requirement, conditioning charge or something similar. And the lowering of capacity is common from experience. Question What equipment/brand is charging it? Jay Peltz power Jeff Clearwater [4] July 14, 2021 at 11:32 AM Thanks Dave - yes I've done whole pack load testing. The deal with this pack though is that it is so remote and the expense of "just replace the pack" in terms of shipping and labor is extreme - (tiny Bahaman island with only regular small boat access} And if it was toward the end of the pack's life anyway I'd not mess around - but with only 600 well documented cylces on a $25K pack - and with probably half that again in shipping and labor to replace - I'm needing to carefully document the lagging cells for either a warranty claim or at least to make good decisions going forward. It's easy to access the cells as this is an EnergyCell AGM stack with easily accessible terminals and removable terminal bars. If we replace we'd go LFP - on the order of 100 KWHrs. So no small decision for the customer - so worth the testing. Thanks! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design www.villagepowerdesign.com [5] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [6] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [4] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [5] http://www.villagepowerdesign.com [6] http://re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Jul 14 17:43:20 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:43:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7788bc17-2c2d-821c-7945-ceab1c672c3b@villagepowerdesign.com> Yes good thought Chris -I doubt if there is an IR tester anywhere on the island - but when I go I will for sure look at that - thanks for that. How would one measure battery resistance with voltage present? I guess with a known voltage applied and current held constant one could calculate?  but then how do you know you are measuring resistance vs storing energy?   I don't think that's possible - others? jc > Chris Worcester > July 14, 2021 at 2:14 PM > Has an infra-red thermometer been used on every battery's terminals to > check for resistance? I recall, although this might be my own > thoughts, that internal resistance of each cell can be measured with > an ohm meter... > > > > Chris Worcester > chris at solarwindworks.com > 530-448-9692 > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jeff Clearwater > Date: 7/14/21 1:42 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells > > Hey Jay, > > Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system > has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as > appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. > > We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- > maintained cycles.  When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage > drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops > faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all > busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. > > So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of > collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been > treated.  But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better > than they have.  So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through > charge settings with SMA etc.  I did have the AHrs programmed slightly > below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or > 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - > the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me > 10 hours)  but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I > have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to > 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they > are claiming that could have contributed. > > Thoughts? > > Best, > > Jeff > > > > > Jeff Clearwater > July 14, 2021 at 1:42 PM > Hey Jay, > > Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system > has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as > appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. > > We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- > maintained cycles.  When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage > drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops > faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all > busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. > > So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of > collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been > treated.  But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better > than they have.  So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through > charge settings with SMA etc.  I did have the AHrs programmed slightly > below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or > 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - > the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me > 10 hours)  but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I > have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to > 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they > are claiming that could have contributed. > > Thoughts? > > Best, > > Jeff > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jul 14 17:49:48 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 17:49:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <7788bc17-2c2d-821c-7945-ceab1c672c3b@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <7788bc17-2c2d-821c-7945-ceab1c672c3b@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <9DD5D5E7-ADBD-4379-9259-F83D8BFDA4FB@swnl.net> I do have a Megatron battery tester that does test internal resistance whit voltage present. The battery Manu usually has that information. When I get my Unigy II battery banks they supply the sheet w/ those #. Did you say what the battery charge settings were? Not much use at this point as it is tough to clean up AGM cells. > On Jul 14, 2021, at 5:43 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: > > Yes good thought Chris -I doubt if there is an IR tester anywhere on the island - but when I go I will for sure look at that - thanks for that. > > How would one measure battery resistance with voltage present? I guess with a known voltage applied and current held constant one could calculate? but then how do you know you are measuring resistance vs storing energy? I don't think that's possible - others? > > jc > >> Chris Worcester July 14, 2021 at 2:14 PM >> Has an infra-red thermometer been used on every battery's terminals to check for resistance? I recall, although this might be my own thoughts, that internal resistance of each cell can be measured with an ohm meter... >> >> >> >> Chris Worcester >> chris at solarwindworks.com >> 530-448-9692 >> >> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Jeff Clearwater >> Date: 7/14/21 1:42 PM (GMT-08:00) >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells >> >> Hey Jay, >> >> Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. >> >> We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles. When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. >> >> So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated. But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have. So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc. I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours) but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> Jeff Clearwater July 14, 2021 at 1:42 PM >> Hey Jay, >> >> Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. >> >> We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles. When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. >> >> So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated. But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have. So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc. I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours) but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Best, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 14 17:49:59 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:49:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <7788bc17-2c2d-821c-7945-ceab1c672c3b@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <7788bc17-2c2d-821c-7945-ceab1c672c3b@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Use a shunt in a lab with a white coat on! Not possible for me to do as I do not like shunts and connecting/disconnecting cells. I would just do the load test like Steve wrote and look for temp differences also. Since there are more than a few cells, it is time to get them ready for check writing. Remote places have to have very good bank accounts offgrid! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 14:43:20 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Yes good thought Chris -I doubt if there is an IR tester anywhere on the island - but when I go I will for sure look at that - thanks for that. How would one measure battery resistance with voltage present? I guess with a known voltage applied and current held constant one could calculate? but then how do you know you are measuring resistance vs storing energy? I don't think that's possible - others? jc Chris Worcester [3] July 14, 2021 at 2:14 PM Has an infra-red thermometer been used on every battery's terminals to check for resistance? I recall, although this might be my own thoughts, that internal resistance of each cell can be measured with an ohm meter... Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com [4] 530-448-9692 Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message -------- From: Jeff Clearwater [5] Date: 7/14/21 1:42 PM (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches [6] Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells Hey Jay, Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles. When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated. But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have. So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc. I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours) but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. Thoughts? Best, Jeff Jeff Clearwater [7] July 14, 2021 at 1:42 PM Hey Jay, Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles. When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated. But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have. So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc. I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours) but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. Thoughts? Best, Jeff _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [8] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:chris at solarwindworks.com [4] mailto:chris at solarwindworks.com [5] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [6] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com [8] http://re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Wed Jul 14 18:17:58 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2021 18:17:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <9DD5D5E7-ADBD-4379-9259-F83D8BFDA4FB@swnl.net> References: <7788bc17-2c2d-821c-7945-ceab1c672c3b@villagepowerdesign.com> <9DD5D5E7-ADBD-4379-9259-F83D8BFDA4FB@swnl.net> Message-ID: <088D4551-E7D8-46EE-9877-B3EB69AB0472@swnl.net> IT is actually a MIDTRONICS, designed to test the Siemens & record. Fluke 500 Series Battery Analyzer is another one. I would call Bert Rohas @ 972-456-4626 TRS rentco. 730 central time. I have found this company great to deal with. I often use there power analyzers for problem clients & utilities. > On Jul 14, 2021, at 5:49 PM, Tump wrote:at > > I do have a Megatron battery tester that does test internal resistance whit voltage present. The battery Manu usually has that information. When I get my Unigy II battery banks they supply the sheet w/ those #. Did you say what the battery charge settings were? Not much use at this point as it is tough to clean up AGM cells. >> On Jul 14, 2021, at 5:43 PM, Jeff Clearwater > wrote: >> >> Yes good thought Chris -I doubt if there is an IR tester anywhere on the island - but when I go I will for sure look at that - thanks for that. >> >> How would one measure battery resistance with voltage present? I guess with a known voltage applied and current held constant one could calculate? but then how do you know you are measuring resistance vs storing energy? I don't think that's possible - others? >> >> jc >> >>> Chris Worcester July 14, 2021 at 2:14 PM >>> Has an infra-red thermometer been used on every battery's terminals to check for resistance? I recall, although this might be my own thoughts, that internal resistance of each cell can be measured with an ohm meter... >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Worcester >>> chris at solarwindworks.com >>> 530-448-9692 >>> >>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Jeff Clearwater >>> Date: 7/14/21 1:42 PM (GMT-08:00) >>> To: RE-wrenches >>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells >>> >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. >>> >>> We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles. When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. >>> >>> So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated. But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have. So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc. I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours) but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff Clearwater July 14, 2021 at 1:42 PM >>> Hey Jay, >>> >>> Yes the Sunny island Master of this Quad SI AC-coupled off-grid system has been giving automatic Eq and Full charge charges perodically as appropriate to this 48 V EnergyCell RE2700 pack. >>> >>> We are getting whole pack volt drops way before we should at 600 well- maintained cycles. When we do whole pack testing - when the voltage drops off there are 5 of the 24 cells lagging - their voltage drops faster than the rest - but they operate well between 50%-100% - all busbars have been triple checked for corrosion and tourque. >>> >>> So it looks like they just aged prematurely - so I'm in the process of collating data from EnnexOS to get exact numbers on how they've been treated. But even with a few hard cycles they should held up better than they have. So perhaps a warranty claim - I've gone through charge settings with SMA etc. I did have the AHrs programmed slightly below rated AHrs due to confusion of whether the SI uses the 20 hr or 10 hr rate (in Europe they use 10 but apparently - unbeknowst to me - the US SI uses the 20 Hr - I swear SMA tech support years ago told me 10 hours) but now they are claiming that might be the culprit - I have a hard time believing that setting the Ahour rating in the SI to 2100 instead of 2288 as rated would lead to pack failure - but they are claiming that could have contributed. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > >> Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California >> 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 >> Blair "TUMP" May >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" >> >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >> > > > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 22:02:11 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 21:02:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1,000 v combiners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Kris, A few options for 1000 Vdc combiners: - Bentek - ConnectPV - SolarBOS If the above options are not available for some reason, you could always look bigger—all of the above manufacturers offer 1500 Vdc combiners, and it looks like Shoals does as well. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 6:39 PM Kristopher Schmid wrote: > > Hi All, > > Just wondering what you commercial installers are using for 1,000 volt > combiners. I don't work in this realm often. I am looking at Solar BOS. > Any recommendations would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Kris > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Fri Jul 16 11:34:58 2021 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:34:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ISO: Outback ProHarvest 208V AC Connection Cable (e.g. trunk cable). Any length. Qty two Message-ID: Dear Wrenches, I am in need of quantity two Outback ProHarvest 208V AC trunk cables. Preferably in the shorter 5' length but will take whatever length you might have available. Happy to pay a fair price plus shipping via Paypal, Venmo, credit card, or check. Sincerely, Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager (406) 551-6135 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pro-cbl-208a-05.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10559 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 18:10:27 2021 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 18:10:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] How Best to Load Test 2 V Cells In-Reply-To: <1a85fbbda4f29fcbda2c1fac440b2d22@127.0.0.1> References: <8a57cd30-d0b8-2857-50f4-dd77fa2c9335@villagepowerdesign.com> <1a85fbbda4f29fcbda2c1fac440b2d22@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <787E39F8-D062-4E5B-BF01-3DC41BD0C4DE@gmail.com> That’s the way it’s always been if you’re off grid with Solar it’s hard to convince people to buy enough solar to actually charge the batteries correctly between the loads that are running most of the time and the often on nature of sun It’s easier now, it was even more difficult when Solar was $10 or watt Bob > On Jul 14, 2021, at 1:32 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > I can ask my battery guy! He is the best with AGM and a dealer for full river and concord. He does this alot! Saves a bunch. He always says that most of the warranty is just a full/corrective charge and 80% are good. Undercharging is the problem. Very very few are overcharged. His words! I just replace the bank, no time to play with this stuff. > > However, I just do the same thing I do with any bank of individual batteries. I put a large load on the bank with the inverter and look at each cells voltage. You may have done this... > > The hard part is, depending on the make, is pulling the cell and doing a full charge and EQ if it is the make that allows it. > > The other hard part is just getting batteries these days. I just heard Trojan is 8+ months out. You know what Steve from RollsSurrette has said. 8 weeks I think. > > The easy part, what make is your cell? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 10:16:31 -0700, Jeff Clearwater wrote: >> >> Hey Good Folks, >> >> I've got a 2300 AH AGM pack of 2 Volt cells that is showing signs of premature aging (only 600 cycles) and I need to test the AH capacity of each cell to help the customer make decisions going forward of whether to replace individual lagging cells or the whole pack. >> >> What equipment have folks used to do AHour tests on 2 Volt 2300 AH cells? I've done plenty of load testing on 6, 12, 24 and 48 volt packs as a whole but am not sure what's my best approach is for 2 volt individual tests. >> >> I know I could put a resistance load and then use an AHour integrator unit - but does anyone know of what unit and what resistive load I'd use at 2 volts? That would be a large device at that voltage to get any appreciative wattage! - I'd like to do a 10 hour test at most. >> >> I see 2 V test units on the web but they only appear to be hooked up for a small amount of time - so they can't be testing full to empty discharge AHours. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Jeff Clearwater >> Village Power Design >> www.villagepowerdesign.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 19:28:07 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 19:28:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 32V battery options Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a client that lives on a remote island on Lake Champlain with a 32V off-grid system. 8 Trojan 8V T875 batteries configured in 2 strings of 4…. 32V Outback VFX 3232M inverter. They have an ancient well pump from the 40’s that is 32VDC, hence the strange system voltage. The client is looking to upgrade the battery bank, ideally to LFP. I can’t think of any 32V or 8V battery options. A 2V or 8V AGM is the closest thing I can imagine. Does anyone out there have knowledge of a possible LFP solution to fit the bill? Kindly, Chris Sparadeo -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 19:40:11 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:40:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 32V battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about a 36 volt CC are around 3, 12,s even in Li Jerry On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 4:28 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have a client that lives on a remote island on Lake Champlain with a 32V > off-grid system. 8 Trojan 8V T875 batteries configured in 2 strings of 4…. > 32V Outback VFX 3232M inverter. They have an ancient well pump from the > 40’s that is 32VDC, hence the strange system voltage. > > The client is looking to upgrade the battery bank, ideally to LFP. I can’t > think of any 32V or 8V battery options. A 2V or 8V AGM is the closest thing > I can imagine. > > Does anyone out there have knowledge of a possible LFP solution to fit the > bill? > > Kindly, > > Chris Sparadeo > > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 21:07:23 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 19:07:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 32V battery options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79FCC859-BA5C-4459-827D-40B1952DE471@gmail.com> Hi Chris You might have to make your own Or contact Larry at starlight solar that build really nice ones. I bet they can reconfigure their Bms for 32v Jay Peltz Power > On Jul 16, 2021, at 5:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > What about a 36 volt CC are around 3, 12,s even in Li > Jerry > >> On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 4:28 PM Chris Sparadeo wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I have a client that lives on a remote island on Lake Champlain with a 32V off-grid system. 8 Trojan 8V T875 batteries configured in 2 strings of 4…. 32V Outback VFX 3232M inverter. They have an ancient well pump from the 40’s that is 32VDC, hence the strange system voltage. >> >> The client is looking to upgrade the battery bank, ideally to LFP. I can’t think of any 32V or 8V battery options. A 2V or 8V AGM is the closest thing I can imagine. >> >> Does anyone out there have knowledge of a possible LFP solution to fit the bill? >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> -- >> Chris Sparadeo >> >> >> C_802-369-4458 >> H_802-728-3059 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 19:49:41 2021 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 19:49:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 32v battery options Message-ID: This is some lateral thinking, but is that 1940s pump one of those basement piston pumps with a motor and belt drive? If you run into issues getting a 32v LI pack, maybe consider replacing the pump motor. With the right rpm and hp those old piston pumps work fine. You’d have to also boom the VFX 3232, but it would modernize the system. Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From kent at coveoregon.com Sat Jul 17 22:58:22 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 19:58:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TS4-R-F failures Message-ID: <53a996fc-4505-95d6-a693-b4d4a0682ac2@coveoregon.com> Fellow wrenches, has anyone else had failures of the SMA TS4-R-F rapid shut down devices this summer? We did the factory recall replacement for 24 of these for a customer last summer, this summer several have failed. Not sure what to think of this. Maybe they are getting too hot ... Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 23:11:03 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 20:11:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA TS4-R-F failures In-Reply-To: <53a996fc-4505-95d6-a693-b4d4a0682ac2@coveoregon.com> References: <53a996fc-4505-95d6-a693-b4d4a0682ac2@coveoregon.com> Message-ID: Yes, we had out of the box and fresh install failures Jerry On Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 7:58 PM Kent wrote: > Fellow wrenches, has anyone else had failures of the SMA TS4-R-F rapid > shut down devices this summer? We did the factory recall replacement for > 24 of these for a customer last summer, this summer several have failed. > Not sure what to think of this. Maybe they are getting too hot ... > > Kent Osterberg > > Blue Mountain Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 15:17:09 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:17:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help Message-ID: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> HI All, I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. Radian 4048 flexmax 80 3500 watts PV fndc it is on opticsRE The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. 2. There is a programing issue. 3. There is a hardware issue. If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great and if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. thanks in advance, jay peltz power From lucchesesolar at me.com Sun Jul 18 16:31:36 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:31:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> References: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B770EE5-3D50-41F9-AE94-419A27733287@me.com> Greetings Jay, How much does the house consume as a base load? I imagine if you remotely instruct your customer to open all the breakers on the standby load panel you’ll lose connectivity with Opticsre? When you go back and look at the history over the last four months does the behavior seem consistent? Three 60 cells in series or what’s your PV configuration? Do you have intimate knowledge of the site’s electrical infrastructure or was it someone else’s job? Nick > On Jul 18, 2021, at 12:17 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. > > 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. > > Radian 4048 > flexmax 80 > 3500 watts PV > fndc > it is on opticsRE > > The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. > > Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. > > I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. > > I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. > > 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. > > 2. There is a programing issue. > > 3. There is a hardware issue. > > > If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. > Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great > and > if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated > So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Jul 18 17:47:36 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 14:47:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: <1B770EE5-3D50-41F9-AE94-419A27733287@me.com> References: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> <1B770EE5-3D50-41F9-AE94-419A27733287@me.com> Message-ID: <5d81630b84db637fa6d7e7aa211fcbff@127.0.0.1> Hi Jay, I would not mind looking at it but there is not much PV ! I would put money on the people living there are using it all. Or clouds on the day you looked. One of the things I really like about Insight is it give me the site weather. I have not looked at optics in a few years and that means probably 5 years....Does it show weather now? If you and Outback do not see any thing obvious a trip there may be a good idea. As Nick asked what did they use on the bad days? That should give you an idea. Could be a string opening and since it is probably on a roof, I do not envy you! Southwest monsoon moisture up here today. Dry strikes are not needed! Cheers ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 13:31:36 -0700, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > Greetings Jay, > > How much does the house consume as a base load? I imagine if you remotely > instruct your customer to open all the breakers on the standby load panel > you’ll lose connectivity with Opticsre? > > When you go back and look at the history over the last four months does > the behavior seem consistent? > > Three 60 cells in series or what’s your PV configuration? > > Do you have intimate knowledge of the site’s electrical infrastructure or > was it someone else’s job? > > Nick > >> On Jul 18, 2021, at 12:17 PM, jay wrote: >> >> HI All, >> >> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. >> >> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. >> >> Radian 4048 >> flexmax 80 >> 3500 watts PV >> fndc >> it is on opticsRE >> >> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is >> about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the >> FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. >> >> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid >> voltage is very constant at around 246vac. >> >> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made >> adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again >> today 0 production, CC is at float. >> >> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. >> But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. >> >> 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what >> I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with >> 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the >> array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP >> voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its >> been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its >> always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. >> >> 2. There is a programing issue. >> >> 3. There is a hardware issue. >> >> >> If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log >> in. >> Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would >> be great >> and >> if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much >> appreciated >> So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had >> some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. >> >> thanks in advance, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aac.PNG Type: image/png Size: 52661 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Jul 18 17:36:00 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 14:36:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> References: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Damaged batteries consuming power? William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Jul 18, 2021, at 12:26 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. > > 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. > > Radian 4048 > flexmax 80 > 3500 watts PV > fndc > it is on opticsRE > > The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. > > Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. > > I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. > > I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. > > 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. > > 2. There is a programing issue. > > 3. There is a hardware issue. > > > If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. > Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great > and > if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated > So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 20:17:58 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 18:17:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <358D56B8-68D0-4F73-9C1C-5B735D6CC57E@gmail.com> Hi William No that’s definitely not it. Production of a 3.5 kWh array is at max 1 kw, with about .8kw going to the grid Jay > On Jul 18, 2021, at 5:44 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Damaged batteries consuming power? > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > >> On Jul 18, 2021, at 12:26 PM, jay wrote: >> >> HI All, >> >> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. >> >> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. >> >> Radian 4048 >> flexmax 80 >> 3500 watts PV >> fndc >> it is on opticsRE >> >> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. >> >> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. >> >> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. >> >> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. >> >> 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. >> >> 2. There is a programing issue. >> >> 3. There is a hardware issue. >> >> >> If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. >> Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great >> and >> if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated >> So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. >> >> thanks in advance, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From solarworks at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 21:46:10 2021 From: solarworks at gmail.com (Kirpal) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 18:46:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> References: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay. We had a similar situation arise once after we updated the firmware of a 4048 radian. The inverter was a circa 2015 unit. After updating it would only sell about 1/4 of the normal array output to the grid. We talked to Chris at tech support and he had us go into the installer menu and look up the max sell current and somehow the inverter firmware update had changed a setting deep in the installer menu to limit sell amps. It was a menu which we had never been in. Adjusting to the normal 16a of sell current up from the 4A immediately corrected the issue. Your problem sounds exactly like the one we experienced. Did you update firmware recently? I believe you have to be on site to access the installer menu.... Chris is typically on the job at 6am pacific time and easy to get ahold of early....I recommend trying to get ahold of him to walk you thru the steps. Best of luck. Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 12:26 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. > > 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. > > Radian 4048 > flexmax 80 > 3500 watts PV > fndc > it is on opticsRE > > The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is > about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC > and after that it did seem to work better. > > Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid > voltage is very constant at around 246vac. > > I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made > adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today > 0 production, CC is at float. > > I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. > But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. > > 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what > I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with > 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the > array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP > voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its > been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always > around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. > > 2. There is a programing issue. > > 3. There is a hardware issue. > > > If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log > in. > Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be > great > and > if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much > appreciated > So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some > recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 23:34:00 2021 From: jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com (Jon Siegenthaler) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 22:34:00 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian 8048 Main AC Breaker Trip with Generator Message-ID: Hey folks, I went to investigate 3 Radian 8048A's that had the master inverter slowly die from salty air. The newest slave that was added to the existing system of 2 radians was programmed to be the master and the AGS was set to the new master as well. The corroded ex-master was replaced with a new radian (now a slave) and the system runs fine. Except when the generator runs for about 20 minutes. After 20 minutes the main AC breaker trips and the power goes out on the system. It's clear that the AC output must be seeing more than or equal to 50A and that's causing the trip but I cannot figure out why this only happens with the generator running. Also when the generator is running an error of overcurrent will occur and show an imbalance of 34A to 108A from phase A to B. Eventually the current will come closer together and the error will disappear. However during the imbalance I will check the actual generator output conductors with my amprobe and see around 43A to 48A phase A to B. Has anyone experienced this or know what the best solution would be to resolve this issue? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 22:26:03 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 20:26:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: References: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Kirpal, This sure seems like a real possibility. I don’t know that there have been any firmware updates. I know its one REV behind, but tech support didn’t think that was an issue. As to the installer menu, does anyone know where I can find a map/menu of all the options? thx jay > On Jul 18, 2021, at 7:46 PM, Kirpal wrote: > > Hi Jay. We had a similar situation arise once after we updated the firmware of a 4048 radian. The inverter was a circa 2015 unit. After updating it would only sell about 1/4 of the normal array output to the grid. > We talked to Chris at tech support and he had us go into the installer menu and look up the max sell current and somehow the inverter firmware update had changed a setting deep in the installer menu to limit sell amps. It was a menu which we had never been in. Adjusting to the normal 16a of sell current up from the 4A immediately corrected the issue. > Your problem sounds exactly like the one we experienced. > Did you update firmware recently? > I believe you have to be on site to access the installer menu.... > Chris is typically on the job at 6am pacific time and easy to get ahold of early....I recommend trying to get ahold of him to walk you thru the steps. > Best of luck. > Kirpal > Oregon Solarworks > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 12:26 PM jay > wrote: > HI All, > > I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. > > 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. > > Radian 4048 > flexmax 80 > 3500 watts PV > fndc > it is on opticsRE > > The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. > > Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. > > I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. > > I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. > > 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. > > 2. There is a programing issue. > > 3. There is a hardware issue. > > > If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. > Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great > and > if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated > So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jul 19 07:22:17 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 06:22:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: References: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <025001d77c90$564ab370$02e01a50$@solarcentex.com> 100% agree with Kirpal. Had the same issue on a multi-stacked 8048 setup. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2021 9:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help HI Kirpal, This sure seems like a real possibility. I don’t know that there have been any firmware updates. I know its one REV behind, but tech support didn’t think that was an issue. As to the installer menu, does anyone know where I can find a map/menu of all the options? thx jay On Jul 18, 2021, at 7:46 PM, Kirpal > wrote: Hi Jay. We had a similar situation arise once after we updated the firmware of a 4048 radian. The inverter was a circa 2015 unit. After updating it would only sell about 1/4 of the normal array output to the grid. We talked to Chris at tech support and he had us go into the installer menu and look up the max sell current and somehow the inverter firmware update had changed a setting deep in the installer menu to limit sell amps. It was a menu which we had never been in. Adjusting to the normal 16a of sell current up from the 4A immediately corrected the issue. Your problem sounds exactly like the one we experienced. Did you update firmware recently? I believe you have to be on site to access the installer menu.... Chris is typically on the job at 6am pacific time and easy to get ahold of early....I recommend trying to get ahold of him to walk you thru the steps. Best of luck. Kirpal Oregon Solarworks On Sun, Jul 18, 2021, 12:26 PM jay > wrote: HI All, I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. Radian 4048 flexmax 80 3500 watts PV fndc it is on opticsRE The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. 2. There is a programing issue. 3. There is a hardware issue. If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great and if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. thanks in advance, jay peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 18:11:27 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 15:11:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> References: <5952542B-B052-43DD-95C3-5ADAFE1DBF8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay In Optics RE Mate 3S verify that the firmware is 1.4.6 under global charge are all switches "disabled" in the GS AC Input "Grid", Charger "Off", "Grid Tie" set Offset enable "Yes" sell is up to you and battery manufacture Jerry On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:44 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. > > 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. > > Radian 4048 > flexmax 80 > 3500 watts PV > fndc > it is on opticsRE > > The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is > about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC > and after that it did seem to work better. > > Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid > voltage is very constant at around 246vac. > > I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made > adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today > 0 production, CC is at float. > > I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. > But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. > > 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what > I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with > 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the > array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP > voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its > been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always > around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. > > 2. There is a programing issue. > > 3. There is a hardware issue. > > > If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log > in. > Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be > great > and > if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much > appreciated > So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some > recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. > > thanks in advance, > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 18:29:19 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:29:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A0049DE-5AE9-4512-8D1A-BCE03F643F65@gmail.com> I’ve had someone from application engineering at Outback check the settings. All appear normal and correct. I’m going to be checking the deep setting on grid sell which is most likely the culprit. Thanks for all the advice and I’ll let you all know what find. Jay > On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > Jay > In Optics RE > Mate 3S verify that the firmware is 1.4.6 > under global charge are all switches "disabled" > in the GS AC Input "Grid", > Charger "Off", > "Grid Tie" set > Offset enable "Yes" > sell is up to you and battery manufacture > Jerry > >> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:44 PM jay wrote: >> HI All, >> >> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. >> >> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. >> >> Radian 4048 >> flexmax 80 >> 3500 watts PV >> fndc >> it is on opticsRE >> >> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. >> >> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. >> >> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. >> >> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. >> >> 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. >> >> 2. There is a programing issue. >> >> 3. There is a hardware issue. >> >> >> If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. >> Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great >> and >> if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated >> So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. >> >> thanks in advance, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 22:00:48 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 21:00:48 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: <9A0049DE-5AE9-4512-8D1A-BCE03F643F65@gmail.com> References: <9A0049DE-5AE9-4512-8D1A-BCE03F643F65@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, here are my guesses: 1) Customer is using all the power (3.5 is not a large array) 2) Per William Miller, the batteries are shot. 3) combination of 1 &2 4) Bulk voltage is too high, daily trying to go to bulk voltage drives the batteries to the grave. Float voltage is too high, acting as a low charge, holding off sell. The return amps never drop to an acceptable level. 5) What is the sell voltage? Is it too high? I feel insecure in telling you my settings as I look to you as one of the top people in the field. On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:25 PM Jay wrote: > I’ve had someone from application engineering at Outback check the > settings. > > All appear normal and correct. > > I’m going to be checking the deep setting on grid sell which is most > likely the culprit. > > Thanks for all the advice and I’ll let you all know what find. > > Jay > > On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  > Jay > In Optics RE > Mate 3S verify that the firmware is 1.4.6 > under global charge are all switches "disabled" > in the GS AC Input "Grid", > Charger "Off", > "Grid Tie" set > Offset enable "Yes" > sell is up to you and battery manufacture > Jerry > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:44 PM jay wrote: > >> HI All, >> >> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. >> >> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. >> >> Radian 4048 >> flexmax 80 >> 3500 watts PV >> fndc >> it is on opticsRE >> >> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is >> about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC >> and after that it did seem to work better. >> >> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid >> voltage is very constant at around 246vac. >> >> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made >> adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today >> 0 production, CC is at float. >> >> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. >> But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. >> >> 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what >> I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with >> 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the >> array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP >> voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its >> been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always >> around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. >> >> 2. There is a programing issue. >> >> 3. There is a hardware issue. >> >> >> If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log >> in. >> Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be >> great >> and >> if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much >> appreciated >> So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some >> recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. >> >> thanks in advance, >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 22:42:09 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:42:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: References: <9A0049DE-5AE9-4512-8D1A-BCE03F643F65@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I suspect the grid-tie sell function isn't quite working in the charge controllers (if all strings are working correctly). To test this, you can try to force a bulk charge with the charge controllers. The inverter should try to maintain the sell voltage and you should see the wattage of the array increase (if you do it during peak sun time). You can do the same test by putting the float voltage in the charge controllers a few volts above the sell voltage. You can also test the selling function; you could also lower the sell voltage below the current battery bank voltage. This should cause the sell current to increase up to the max sell current parameter until the battery bank voltage lowers to the offset voltage. Of course firmware could be the issue. One thing that has really helped us to make the Outback products work well is to calibrate all battery voltages across devices. That includes the flexnet DC, which is a process described here: https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf This calibration is especially important with Lithium drop in batteries. Let us know what you find out On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 8:01 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: > Hi Jay, here are my guesses: > 1) Customer is using all the power (3.5 is not a large array) > 2) Per William Miller, the batteries are shot. > 3) combination of 1 &2 > 4) Bulk voltage is too high, daily trying to go to bulk voltage drives the > batteries to the grave. Float voltage is too high, acting as a low charge, > holding off sell. The return amps never drop to an acceptable level. > 5) What is the sell voltage? Is it too high? > I feel insecure in telling you my settings as I look to you as one of the > top people in the field. > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:25 PM Jay wrote: > >> I’ve had someone from application engineering at Outback check the >> settings. >> >> All appear normal and correct. >> >> I’m going to be checking the deep setting on grid sell which is most >> likely the culprit. >> >> Thanks for all the advice and I’ll let you all know what find. >> >> Jay >> >> On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer >> wrote: >> >>  >> Jay >> In Optics RE >> Mate 3S verify that the firmware is 1.4.6 >> under global charge are all switches "disabled" >> in the GS AC Input "Grid", >> Charger "Off", >> "Grid Tie" set >> Offset enable "Yes" >> sell is up to you and battery manufacture >> Jerry >> >> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:44 PM jay wrote: >> >>> HI All, >>> >>> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. >>> >>> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. >>> >>> Radian 4048 >>> flexmax 80 >>> 3500 watts PV >>> fndc >>> it is on opticsRE >>> >>> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is >>> about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC >>> and after that it did seem to work better. >>> >>> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid >>> voltage is very constant at around 246vac. >>> >>> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made >>> adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today >>> 0 production, CC is at float. >>> >>> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by >>> optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible >>> issues. >>> >>> 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what >>> I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with >>> 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the >>> array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP >>> voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its >>> been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always >>> around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. >>> >>> 2. There is a programing issue. >>> >>> 3. There is a hardware issue. >>> >>> >>> If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log >>> in. >>> Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would >>> be great >>> and >>> if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much >>> appreciated >>> So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had >>> some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. >>> >>> thanks in advance, >>> >>> jay >>> >>> peltz power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 22:55:08 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:55:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <532B9AF2-4B39-4BFB-8E88-2234F8141E80@gmail.com> Hi Max, Ive thought about this, and have done forced bulk a few times with no change in output. One thing I haven’t done is to drain the batteries and see if the PV watts increase to fill them. Nobody has suggested the cc is somehow limiting due to a weird failure snd the settings are correct. I’ve never seen this off grid except if it’s overheating, which seems hard to believe at 1000 watts. And given that a few have had similar experiences that turned out to be grid sell amps being to low, it’s the logical next step. I should have an answer within not to long. Thx Jay > On Jul 19, 2021, at 8:42 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > Hi Jay, > > I suspect the grid-tie sell function isn't quite working in the charge controllers (if all strings are working correctly). To test this, you can try to force a bulk charge with the charge controllers. The inverter should try to maintain the sell voltage and you should see the wattage of the array increase (if you do it during peak sun time). You can do the same test by putting the float voltage in the charge controllers a few volts above the sell voltage. > > You can also test the selling function; you could also lower the sell voltage below the current battery bank voltage. This should cause the sell current to increase up to the max sell current parameter until the battery bank voltage lowers to the offset voltage. > > Of course firmware could be the issue. > > One thing that has really helped us to make the Outback products work well is to calibrate all battery voltages across devices. That includes the flexnet DC, which is a process described here: https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf > > This calibration is especially important with Lithium drop in batteries. > > Let us know what you find out > > > >> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 8:01 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: >> Hi Jay, here are my guesses: >> 1) Customer is using all the power (3.5 is not a large array) >> 2) Per William Miller, the batteries are shot. >> 3) combination of 1 &2 >> 4) Bulk voltage is too high, daily trying to go to bulk voltage drives the batteries to the grave. Float voltage is too high, acting as a low charge, holding off sell. The return amps never drop to an acceptable level. >> 5) What is the sell voltage? Is it too high? >> I feel insecure in telling you my settings as I look to you as one of the top people in the field. >> >>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:25 PM Jay wrote: >>> I’ve had someone from application engineering at Outback check the settings. >>> >>> All appear normal and correct. >>> >>> I’m going to be checking the deep setting on grid sell which is most likely the culprit. >>> >>> Thanks for all the advice and I’ll let you all know what find. >>> >>> Jay >>> >>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>> >>>>  >>>> Jay >>>> In Optics RE >>>> Mate 3S verify that the firmware is 1.4.6 >>>> under global charge are all switches "disabled" >>>> in the GS AC Input "Grid", >>>> Charger "Off", >>>> "Grid Tie" set >>>> Offset enable "Yes" >>>> sell is up to you and battery manufacture >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:44 PM jay wrote: >>>>> HI All, >>>>> >>>>> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. >>>>> >>>>> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. >>>>> >>>>> Radian 4048 >>>>> flexmax 80 >>>>> 3500 watts PV >>>>> fndc >>>>> it is on opticsRE >>>>> >>>>> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. >>>>> >>>>> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. >>>>> >>>>> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. >>>>> >>>>> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. >>>>> >>>>> 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. >>>>> >>>>> 2. There is a programing issue. >>>>> >>>>> 3. There is a hardware issue. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. >>>>> Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great >>>>> and >>>>> if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated >>>>> So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. >>>>> >>>>> thanks in advance, >>>>> >>>>> jay >>>>> >>>>> peltz power >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jul 20 07:21:34 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 06:21:34 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help In-Reply-To: <532B9AF2-4B39-4BFB-8E88-2234F8141E80@gmail.com> References: <532B9AF2-4B39-4BFB-8E88-2234F8141E80@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay Even if you that sell limit setting is low, I’d drop the grid and load up the inverter a bit, and force bulk just to be sure the CC and PV are functioning correctly. You could even amp clamp the PV strings to make sure each string is correct. Good luck! Maverick Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jul 20, 2021, at 1:55 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > Hi Max, > > Ive thought about this, and have done forced bulk a few times with no change in output. > > One thing I haven’t done is to drain the batteries and see if the PV watts increase to fill them. > > Nobody has suggested the cc is somehow limiting due to a weird failure snd the settings are correct. I’ve never seen this off grid except if it’s overheating, which seems hard to believe at 1000 watts. > > And given that a few have had similar experiences that turned out to be grid sell amps being to low, it’s the logical next step. > > I should have an answer within not to long. > > Thx > Jay > >>> On Jul 19, 2021, at 8:42 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> >>  >> Hi Jay, >> >> I suspect the grid-tie sell function isn't quite working in the charge controllers (if all strings are working correctly). To test this, you can try to force a bulk charge with the charge controllers. The inverter should try to maintain the sell voltage and you should see the wattage of the array increase (if you do it during peak sun time). You can do the same test by putting the float voltage in the charge controllers a few volts above the sell voltage. >> >> You can also test the selling function; you could also lower the sell voltage below the current battery bank voltage. This should cause the sell current to increase up to the max sell current parameter until the battery bank voltage lowers to the offset voltage. >> >> Of course firmware could be the issue. >> >> One thing that has really helped us to make the Outback products work well is to calibrate all battery voltages across devices. That includes the flexnet DC, which is a process described here: https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf >> >> This calibration is especially important with Lithium drop in batteries. >> >> Let us know what you find out >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 8:01 PM Darryl Thayer wrote: >>> Hi Jay, here are my guesses: >>> 1) Customer is using all the power (3.5 is not a large array) >>> 2) Per William Miller, the batteries are shot. >>> 3) combination of 1 &2 >>> 4) Bulk voltage is too high, daily trying to go to bulk voltage drives the batteries to the grave. Float voltage is too high, acting as a low charge, holding off sell. The return amps never drop to an acceptable level. >>> 5) What is the sell voltage? Is it too high? >>> I feel insecure in telling you my settings as I look to you as one of the top people in the field. >>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:25 PM Jay wrote: >>>> I’ve had someone from application engineering at Outback check the settings. >>>> >>>> All appear normal and correct. >>>> >>>> I’m going to be checking the deep setting on grid sell which is most likely the culprit. >>>> >>>> Thanks for all the advice and I’ll let you all know what find. >>>> >>>> Jay >>>> >>>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Jay >>>>> In Optics RE >>>>> Mate 3S verify that the firmware is 1.4.6 >>>>> under global charge are all switches "disabled" >>>>> in the GS AC Input "Grid", >>>>> Charger "Off", >>>>> "Grid Tie" set >>>>> Offset enable "Yes" >>>>> sell is up to you and battery manufacture >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:44 PM jay wrote: >>>>>> HI All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install. >>>>>> >>>>>> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up. >>>>>> >>>>>> Radian 4048 >>>>>> flexmax 80 >>>>>> 3500 watts PV >>>>>> fndc >>>>>> it is on opticsRE >>>>>> >>>>>> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all. Mostly when it is about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling. I have disconnected the FNDC and after that it did seem to work better. >>>>>> >>>>>> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on. Grid voltage is very constant at around 246vac. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again today 0 production, CC is at float. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. But I’m going to have to go. I think there are 3 possible issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. the customer has always thought the production is low. And from what I’ve seen that is true. This is in a very sunny place, no shade so with 3.5kw, 1kw is very low which I think they may have a few strings of the array are not connected. However why that bothers me is that the VOC/VMP voltages are too close in looking at the CC. Which leads me to think its been told to back off to the 1.0kw, by some setting, see #2. And its always around .8 selling and around 1kw output from the array. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. There is a programing issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. There is a hardware issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If someone wants to look at the site, I have the info and they can log in. >>>>>> Or if they want to provide settings for me to triple check, that would be great >>>>>> and >>>>>> if they have any ideas as to why its acting like it is, very much appreciated >>>>>> So far even though tech support has viewed in on Optics and have had some recommendations as to settings, its not fixed the issue. >>>>>> >>>>>> thanks in advance, >>>>>> >>>>>> jay >>>>>> >>>>>> peltz power >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Jul 20 08:06:07 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 07:06:07 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian 8048 Main AC Breaker Trip with Generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89FCA5C5-A477-4FC0-988B-19B4DE200AE3@mavericksolar.com> I would double check the new inverter’s wiring. Those extra neutral wiring points can be a trickster. From the Mate3 main status, press the Inverter Status soft key (3rd button from the left). The upper left status will indicate Selling, charging, etc. Press the Port button to cycle around the inverters. Make sure none of the inverters have Errors. Especially ones that don’t necessarily report as an Event. I had a similar issue and it turned out I also needed a née Hub. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Jul 18, 2021, at 10:34 PM, Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > >  > Hey folks, > I went to investigate 3 Radian 8048A's that had the master inverter slowly die from salty air. The newest slave that was added to the existing system of 2 radians was programmed to be the master and the AGS was set to the new master as well. The corroded ex-master was replaced with a new radian (now a slave) and the system runs fine. > > Except when the generator runs for about 20 minutes. After 20 minutes the main AC breaker trips and the power goes out on the system. It's clear that the AC output must be seeing more than or equal to 50A and that's causing the trip but I cannot figure out why this only happens with the generator running. > > Also when the generator is running an error of overcurrent will occur and show an imbalance of 34A to 108A from phase A to B. Eventually the current will come closer together and the error will disappear. However during the imbalance I will check the actual generator output conductors with my amprobe and see around 43A to 48A phase A to B. > > Has anyone experienced this or know what the best solution would be to resolve this issue? > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Tue Jul 20 13:22:43 2021 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified? Message-ID: Wrenches, We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi batteries stating: *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the project.* Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. Thanks in advance for your help. -- [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative] Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist Board Member & Worker Owner loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop Office: (530) 274-3671 Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 [image: NABCEP] -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 20 14:05:30 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:05:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?Is_Solark_UL_9540_Certified=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like California Loren? I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs. Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: Wrenches, We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi batteries stating: _"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). THE SOL-ARK SYSTEM IS NOT LISTED AND TESTED PER UL 9540 BUT IS ONLY LISTED PER UL 1741. THE COMPLETE SYSTEM (IE. BATTERIES, INVERTER, AND ANY OTHER COMPONENTS ASSOCIATED WITH THE ENERGY STORAGE SYSTEM) MUST BE LISTED PER UL 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the project._ _ _ Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. Thanks in advance for your help. -- Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist Board Member font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap;">loren at cal-solar.com [4] | www.cal-solar.coop [5] Office: (530) 274-3671 Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 [6] [7] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] https://californiasolarco.com/ [4] mailto:loren at cal-solar.com [5] http://www.cal-solar.coop/ [6] https://www.nabcep.org/ [7] https://californiasolarco.com/quote/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Tue Jul 20 15:17:12 2021 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:17:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yessir, good old California... On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:05 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Sounds like California Loren? > > I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs. > > Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally. > > > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/ > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi > batteries stating: > *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC > 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The > Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per > UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other > components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL > 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a > Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk > inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. > If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk > inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different > system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the > project.* > > Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the > wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the > batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any > documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and > Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > -- > [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative] > > > > Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist > > Board Member & Worker Owner > > loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop > > Office: (530) 274-3671 > > Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 > > Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 > [image: NABCEP] > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative] Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist Board Member & Worker Owner loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop Office: (530) 274-3671 Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 [image: NABCEP] -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Tue Jul 20 15:21:22 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:21:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2EB32B75-45D3-493E-A1DC-9BB646E60BDD@solarenergy.org> Simpliphi has at least two combinations of specific batteries + SolArk that it says are 9540 listed as a combination. See spec sheets/fully integrated systems on their site You may have to dig further to find the actual certificates or whatever the AHJ is asking for. Or maybe these aren’t the combinations you’re looking for. Brian > On Jul 20, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > >  > Sounds like California Loren? > > I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs. > > Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally. > > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/ > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi batteries stating: >> "Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the project. >> >> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. >> >> Thanks in advance for your help. >> >> -- >> >> >> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist >> Board Member & Worker Owner >> loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop >> Office: (530) 274-3671 >> Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 >> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 15:33:27 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:33:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, NEC is vague on this but we have seen this as well. I think you may need a *Simpliphi Access* cabinet like this to get the listing: https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-phi-sol-ark/ This is UL listed to 9540 even though its probably very similar to what you have designed. Unfortunately, this takes away quite a bit of the design freedom that is necessary for robust designs for all of the different needs our clients have. On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 12:05 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Sounds like California Loren? > > I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs. > > Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally. > > > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/ > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi > batteries stating: > *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC > 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The > Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per > UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other > components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL > 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a > Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk > inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. > If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk > inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different > system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the > project.* > > Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the > wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the > batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any > documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and > Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > -- > [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative] > > > > Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist > > Board Member & Worker Owner > > loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop > > Office: (530) 274-3671 > > Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 > > Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 > [image: NABCEP] > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Tue Jul 20 15:36:47 2021 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:36:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sol-Ark says it has UL9540 with Simpli-Phi https://www.sol-ark.com/battery-partners/ You should ask for documentation. NFPA 855 and the new electrical code rules are going to change the off-grid market drastically. Not only do you need the inverter and battery certified to work together per UL9540, the charge controller has to be part of the system too - mixing MidNite, Morningstar, Outback, Magnum, Schneider, Victron, etc. components will likely be verboten. To make it more confusing, only one manufacturer - either the inverter/PCU manufacturer or the battery manufacturer gets the UL9540 listing for the combination. Also, there are apparently no NRTL agencies that are equipped or prepared to certify lead acid batteries right now. The size/threshold limitations in NFPA 855 may pose some problems as well, since exceeding them either requires UL 9540A cell level certifications, which few if any battery manufacturers have yet, or I've been told they can be exceeded if a fire propagation study is conducted on site. But I have no idea who would be qualified to do that or how much it would cost. So, it looks like 1 and 2 family dwellings will be limited to 80 kWh of energy storage if located in attached or detached garages and 40 kWh if in utility closets, storage spaces, etc. So, ~800 Ah at ~50V appears to be the limit. And using lead acid batteries seems to be in limbo. We are struggling with understanding the implications in Canada as well. As North America harmonizes standards, UL9540 and UL1973 are actually ANSI/CAN/UL standards and thus apply in both countries. In a nutshell: the inverter/charge controller is listed to UL1741, the battery to UL1973, and the combination to UL9540. Outback systems are UL9540 with SimpiPhi. Schneider Conext systems are UL9540 with Discover Magnum doesn't appear to have any UL9540 battery partners Sol-Ark has a long list on their website. *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 11:05, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > Sounds like California Loren? > > I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs. > > Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally. > > > https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/ > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi > batteries stating: > *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC > 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The > Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per > UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other > components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL > 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a > Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk > inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. > If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk > inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different > system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the > project.* > > Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the > wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the > batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any > documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and > Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > -- > [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative] > > > > Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist > > Board Member & Worker Owner > > loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop > > Office: (530) 274-3671 > > Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 > > Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 > [image: NABCEP] > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill at berkssolar.com Tue Jul 20 15:37:43 2021 From: bill at berkssolar.com (Bill Hennessy) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 19:37:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1024518321.907246.1626809863059@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Lorenzo--Simpliphi's website has a a blurb about their batteries being 9540 listed with Sol-Ark. Here's the link: SimpliPhi AccESS Sol-Ark integrated energy storage & management | | | | | | | | | | | SimpliPhi AccESS Sol-Ark integrated energy storage & management SimpliPhi your power with AccESS to a fully integrated energy storage & management solution with Sol-Ark Power e... | | | Maybe the paperwork is in the mail. As a side note, we did two Sol-Arks with Simpliphi last year and it works fine. Sol-Ark has recently added a generator test start function to its firmware. The system 15kW generator starts and runs for 20 minutes every Monday morning. The system remains grid-tied, so the genny is getting no load exercise. regards, bill Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com Bill Hennessy Berks Solar, LLC 371 Centennial Rd Mertztown, PA 19539 o 610 682 4300 c 484 560 4666 NABCEP certified installer PA contractor #44411 www.berkssolar.com On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, 1:23:26 PM EDT, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote: Wrenches, We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi batteries stating:"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the project. Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. Thanks in advance for your help. --         Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist Board Member & Worker Owner loren at cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop Office: (530) 274-3671   Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624 Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945        _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:05:47 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 15:05:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, my experiance, is a Lead Acid battery is acceptable under 480 Storage Batteries. 480 is the older article and Lead Acid has been used with great success particularly under 48 volts with no outside disconnect required. 480.7(A&B) On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:37 PM Eric Smiley wrote: > Sol-Ark says it has UL9540 with Simpli-Phi > https://www.sol-ark.com/battery-partners/ > > You should ask for documentation. > > NFPA 855 and the new electrical code rules are going to change the > off-grid market drastically. > Not only do you need the inverter and battery certified to work together > per UL9540, the charge controller has to be part of the system too - > mixing MidNite, Morningstar, Outback, Magnum, Schneider, Victron, etc. > components will likely be verboten. > To make it more confusing, only one manufacturer - either the inverter/PCU > manufacturer or the battery manufacturer gets the UL9540 listing for the > combination. > > Also, there are apparently no NRTL agencies that are equipped or prepared > to certify lead acid batteries right now. > > The size/threshold limitations in NFPA 855 may pose some problems as well, > since exceeding them either requires UL 9540A cell level certifications, > which few if any battery manufacturers have yet, or I've been told they can > be exceeded if a fire propagation study is conducted on site. But I have no > idea who would be qualified to do that or how much it would cost. > So, it looks like 1 and 2 family dwellings will be limited to 80 kWh of > energy storage if located in attached or detached garages and 40 kWh if in > utility closets, storage spaces, etc. So, ~800 Ah at ~50V appears to be the > limit. And using lead acid batteries seems to be in limbo. > > We are struggling with understanding the implications in Canada as well. > As North America harmonizes standards, UL9540 and UL1973 are actually > ANSI/CAN/UL standards and thus apply in both countries. > > In a nutshell: the inverter/charge controller is listed to UL1741, the > battery to UL1973, and the combination to UL9540. > > Outback systems are UL9540 with SimpiPhi. > Schneider Conext systems are UL9540 with Discover > Magnum doesn't appear to have any UL9540 battery partners > Sol-Ark has a long list on their website. > > > *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager > eric at vecoop.ca > T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> > T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> > *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * > > * * > > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 11:05, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Sounds like California Loren? >> >> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs. >> >> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally. >> >> >> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/ >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi >> batteries stating: >> *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC >> 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The >> Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per >> UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other >> components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL >> 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a >> Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk >> inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. >> If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk >> inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different >> system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the >> project.* >> >> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the >> wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the >> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any >> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and >> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. >> >> Thanks in advance for your help. >> >> -- >> [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative] >> >> >> >> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist >> >> Board Member & Worker Owner >> >> loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop >> >> Office: (530) 274-3671 >> >> Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 >> >> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >> [image: NABCEP] >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 20 16:41:38 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:41:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This all seems to greatly advantage "ac battery" systems like the Powerwall and AC Coupling of PV when it comes to codes and standards. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:37 PM Eric Smiley wrote: > Sol-Ark says it has UL9540 with Simpli-Phi > https://www.sol-ark.com/battery-partners/ > > You should ask for documentation. > > NFPA 855 and the new electrical code rules are going to change the > off-grid market drastically. > Not only do you need the inverter and battery certified to work together > per UL9540, the charge controller has to be part of the system too - > mixing MidNite, Morningstar, Outback, Magnum, Schneider, Victron, etc. > components will likely be verboten. > To make it more confusing, only one manufacturer - either the inverter/PCU > manufacturer or the battery manufacturer gets the UL9540 listing for the > combination. > > Also, there are apparently no NRTL agencies that are equipped or prepared > to certify lead acid batteries right now. > > The size/threshold limitations in NFPA 855 may pose some problems as well, > since exceeding them either requires UL 9540A cell level certifications, > which few if any battery manufacturers have yet, or I've been told they can > be exceeded if a fire propagation study is conducted on site. But I have no > idea who would be qualified to do that or how much it would cost. > So, it looks like 1 and 2 family dwellings will be limited to 80 kWh of > energy storage if located in attached or detached garages and 40 kWh if in > utility closets, storage spaces, etc. So, ~800 Ah at ~50V appears to be the > limit. And using lead acid batteries seems to be in limbo. > > We are struggling with understanding the implications in Canada as well. > As North America harmonizes standards, UL9540 and UL1973 are actually > ANSI/CAN/UL standards and thus apply in both countries. > > In a nutshell: the inverter/charge controller is listed to UL1741, the > battery to UL1973, and the combination to UL9540. > > Outback systems are UL9540 with SimpiPhi. > Schneider Conext systems are UL9540 with Discover > Magnum doesn't appear to have any UL9540 battery partners > Sol-Ark has a long list on their website. > > > *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager > eric at vecoop.ca > T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> > T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> > *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * > > * * > > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 11:05, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < > offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > >> Sounds like California Loren? >> >> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs. >> >> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally. >> >> >> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/ >> >> >> >> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >> "we go where powerlines don't" >> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ >> e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net >> text 209 813 0060* >> >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi >> batteries stating: >> *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC >> 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The >> Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per >> UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other >> components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL >> 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a >> Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk >> inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. >> If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk >> inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different >> system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the >> project.* >> >> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the >> wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the >> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any >> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and >> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this. >> >> Thanks in advance for your help. >> >> -- >> [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative] >> >> >> >> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist >> >> Board Member & Worker Owner >> >> loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop >> >> Office: (530) 274-3671 >> >> Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 >> >> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 >> [image: NABCEP] >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Jul 20 16:47:00 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:47:00 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls Message-ID: Aloha all, For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up switch”? Thanks, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:58:10 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths Message-ID: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> Hi all I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the same length? How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than battery 6 Thanks Jay Peltz power. From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 20 16:50:21 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:50:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification Message-ID: Friends: I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker: *Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC 690.43(B).* Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K panels. Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this request? I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a week or more to respond. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Jul 20 17:36:08 2021 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 15:36:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with Type 1 and Type 2 modules. https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf *SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for a Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with the standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.* The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703. https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the different module "types" that are tested. https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/ *The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and size of module.* Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager | o. (406) 551-6135 On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker: > > > > *Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system > documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The > UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack > to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond > the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC > 690.43(B).* > > > > Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of > module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K > panels. Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this > request? > > > > I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a > week or more to respond. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Jul 20 18:02:20 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 15:02:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close. Why would you not do this Jay? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from > furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from > 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. > > What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the > same length? > > How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no > worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than > battery 6 > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From bchurchill at energy-1.net Tue Jul 20 18:04:20 2021 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 22:04:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com>, <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: If each lithium battery has an internal BMU and your wires are sized properly for their output it does not matter. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:02:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close. Why would you not do this Jay? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=sti.net&u=aHR0cDovL21lbWJlcnMuc3RpLm5ldC9vZmZncmlkc29sYXIv&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZURpZGJ5TUxIbHJ6RnlSV1R6dVh6R2ZzMXM1dktRb2kxakRuQzRYa1hwMD0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from > furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from > 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. > > What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the > same length? > > How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no > worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than > battery 6 > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL3JlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZw==&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZzJIYlNiOVpTSk1sdVJlYWs3Tk1hSWhlMC9yRjMyQjN1LzZEOE9Pa3drZz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL2xpc3RzLnJlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZy9vcHRpb25zLmNnaS9yZS13cmVuY2hlcy1yZS13cmVuY2hlcy5vcmc=&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=NVlGNklPMUN2VEVKcE9jTmhpWUp0TlE4Z25QeU00OEZTRjdVVWdKTlJ4dz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 > > There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 18:37:51 2021 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 15:37:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William Groan, I don't see that precise model in the series 100 installation manual on pg 74 which is the bonding evaluation list of modules I hope for your sake Snapnrack will send an email the AHJ will accept that includes that module. I wish there was a reasonable workaround for AHJs here, like onsite resistance measurements. Good luck, Rebekah Tel: 336.266.8800 On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:36 PM Sam Haraldson wrote: > The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with > Type 1 and Type 2 modules. > > > https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf > > *SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for a > Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with the > standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.* > > > The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703. > > > https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf > > > For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the > different module "types" that are tested. > > https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/ > > *The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be > required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that > are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and > size of module.* > > > > > > > Sam Haraldson > Installation & Service Manager > > > | o. (406) 551-6135 > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> >> >> I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker: >> >> >> >> *Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system >> documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The >> UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack >> to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond >> the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC >> 690.43(B).* >> >> >> >> Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of >> module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K >> panels. Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this >> request? >> >> >> >> I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a >> week or more to respond. >> >> >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> >> >> William Miller >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 18:10:59 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:10:59 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: HI Dave, Not my design, but I”m checking for him jay > On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:02 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close. Why would you not > do this Jay? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from >> furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go > from >> 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. >> >> What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all > the >> same length? >> >> How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no >> worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than >> battery 6 >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 18:13:41 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:13:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: HI Barton, OK so please explain how the BMU/BMS is controlling watt hrs between the batteries as I’ve not heard that this is possible. The batteries are Blue planet jay > On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Barton Churchill wrote: > > If each lithium battery has an internal BMU and your wires are sized properly for their output it does not matter. > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:02:20 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths > > Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close. Why would you not > do this Jay? > > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=sti.net&u=aHR0cDovL21lbWJlcnMuc3RpLm5ldC9vZmZncmlkc29sYXIv&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZURpZGJ5TUxIbHJ6RnlSV1R6dVh6R2ZzMXM1dktRb2kxakRuQzRYa1hwMD0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > > > I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from > > furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go > from > > 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. > > > > What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all > the > > same length? > > > > How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no > > worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than > > battery 6 > > > > Thanks > > > > Jay > > > > Peltz power. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL3JlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZw==&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZzJIYlNiOVpTSk1sdVJlYWs3Tk1hSWhlMC9yRjMyQjN1LzZEOE9Pa3drZz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL2xpc3RzLnJlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZy9vcHRpb25zLmNnaS9yZS13cmVuY2hlcy1yZS13cmVuY2hlcy5vcmc=&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=NVlGNklPMUN2VEVKcE9jTmhpWUp0TlE4Z25QeU00OEZTRjdVVWdKTlJ4dz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 > > > > There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bchurchill at energy-1.net Tue Jul 20 18:53:43 2021 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 22:53:43 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> , Message-ID: I think you’ll find it stated in the Blue Planet installation manual. I’ve installed dozens of their systems over three years and never paid attention to cable length. One solar self consumption system I let run over the winter without ever reaching a full charge and the cabinets didn’t drift more than 10% SOC from each other. Blue planet does recommend a full charge at least once per month for balancing though. Matched cable length, again assuming properly sized, really doesn’t matter anymore. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:13:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths HI Barton, OK so please explain how the BMU/BMS is controlling watt hrs between the batteries as I’ve not heard that this is possible. The batteries are Blue planet jay On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Barton Churchill < bchurchill at energy-1.net> wrote: If each lithium battery has an internal BMU and your wires are sized properly for their output it does not matter. ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:02:20 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close. Why would you not do this Jay? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=sti.net&u=aHR0cDovL21lbWJlcnMuc3RpLm5ldC9vZmZncmlkc29sYXIv&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZURpZGJ5TUxIbHJ6RnlSV1R6dVh6R2ZzMXM1dktRb2kxakRuQzRYa1hwMD0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay > wrote: > Hi all > > I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from > furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from > 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. > > What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the > same length? > > How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no > worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than > battery 6 > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL3JlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZw==&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZzJIYlNiOVpTSk1sdVJlYWs3Tk1hSWhlMC9yRjMyQjN1LzZEOE9Pa3drZz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL2xpc3RzLnJlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZy9vcHRpb25zLmNnaS9yZS13cmVuY2hlcy1yZS13cmVuY2hlcy5vcmc=&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=NVlGNklPMUN2VEVKcE9jTmhpWUp0TlE4Z25QeU00OEZTRjdVVWdKTlJ4dz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 > > There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue Jul 20 20:05:44 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:05:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marco, After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago. We have taken zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either. We check in with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip shortage, etc). We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's extremely frustrating. Predictable, but still frustrating. Best, Blake On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha all, > > For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m curious > as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with Powerwalls > and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up switch”? > > Thanks, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Jul 20 20:13:04 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:13:04 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you. I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp production. Thanks for responding. marco On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason wrote: > Hi Marco, > > After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our supply > from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago. We have taken zero > deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of > customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not > getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either. We check in > with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next > quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip > shortage, etc). We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's > extremely frustrating. Predictable, but still frustrating. > > Best, > Blake > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Aloha all, >> >> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m >> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with >> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up >> switch”? >> >> Thanks, >> marco >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner > Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence > O: 510-845-2997 x128 > C: 510-867-5878 > > 1035 Folger Ave. > > Berkeley, CA 94710 > > www.sunlightandpower.com > License #326203 > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Jul 20 20:55:06 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 20:55:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Didn't Tesla explicitly cut off it's dealer network and essentially tell the world that they are only selling Powerwalls direct with purchase of PV from Tesla? I thought Powerwall was essentially dead to smaller independent dealers. Jason On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you. > > I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp > production. > > Thanks for responding. > > marco > > On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason > wrote: > >> Hi Marco, >> >> After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our >> supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago. We have taken >> zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of >> customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not >> getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either. We check in >> with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next >> quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip >> shortage, etc). We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's >> extremely frustrating. Predictable, but still frustrating. >> >> Best, >> Blake >> >> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> Aloha all, >>> >>> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m >>> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with >>> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up >>> switch”? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> marco >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner >> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence >> O: 510-845-2997 x128 >> C: 510-867-5878 >> >> 1035 Folger Ave. >> >> Berkeley, CA 94710 >> >> www.sunlightandpower.com >> License #326203 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 21:19:53 2021 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 19:19:53 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Minor update, I got word from Snapnrack that: "The new protocol established with UL eliminates the need to include the wattage ranges for each module type" Still a pain and the manufacturer/model should be on the rack manufacturer list - but not down to the precise wattage - so slightly less of a pain. Rebekah Tel: 336.266.8800 On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:37 PM Rebekah Hren wrote: > Hi William > > Groan, I don't see that precise model in the series 100 installation > manual > on > pg 74 which is the bonding evaluation list of modules > I hope for your sake Snapnrack will send an email the AHJ will accept that > includes that module. > I wish there was a reasonable workaround for AHJs here, like onsite > resistance measurements. > > Good luck, > Rebekah > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:36 PM Sam Haraldson > wrote: > >> The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with >> Type 1 and Type 2 modules. >> >> >> https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf >> >> *SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for >> a Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with >> the standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.* >> >> >> The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703. >> >> >> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf >> >> >> For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the >> different module "types" that are tested. >> >> https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/ >> >> *The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be >> required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that >> are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and >> size of module.* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sam Haraldson >> Installation & Service Manager >> >> >> | o. (406) 551-6135 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller >> wrote: >> >>> Friends: >>> >>> >>> >>> I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker: >>> >>> >>> >>> *Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system >>> documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The >>> UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack >>> to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond >>> the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC >>> 690.43(B).* >>> >>> >>> >>> Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of >>> module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K >>> panels. Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this >>> request? >>> >>> >>> >>> I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a >>> week or more to respond. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> >>> >>> William Miller >>> >>> >>> >>> Miller Solar >>> >>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >>> >>> 805-438-5600 >>> >>> www.millersolar.com >>> >>> CA Lic. 773985 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 18:59:11 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:59:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: HI Barton, Thanks for the explanation, and it confirms that battery one is doing more work than #6. jay > On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Barton Churchill wrote: > > I think you’ll find it stated in the Blue Planet installation manual. I’ve installed dozens of their systems over three years and never paid attention to cable length. One solar self consumption system I let run over the winter without ever reaching a full charge and the cabinets didn’t drift more than 10% SOC from each other. Blue planet does recommend a full charge at least once per month for balancing though. Matched cable length, again assuming properly sized, really doesn’t matter anymore. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 19:06:16 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:06:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie low selling update Message-ID: <0BDB8259-9B9E-410C-9A02-7F056805D98F@gmail.com> The update is that indeed the inverter was set at 3.7 instead of the 18 amps that it should have been. jay peltz power From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 20:04:23 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 18:04:23 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B7C85B0-6D02-4711-B632-E8E3FA068F64@gmail.com> Can WEEBS be used instead? jay peltz power > On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:37 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote: > > Hi William > > Groan, I don't see that precise model in the series 100 installation manual on pg 74 which is the bonding evaluation list of modules > I hope for your sake Snapnrack will send an email the AHJ will accept that includes that module. > I wish there was a reasonable workaround for AHJs here, like onsite resistance measurements. > > Good luck, > Rebekah > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:36 PM Sam Haraldson > wrote: > The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with Type 1 and Type 2 modules. > https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf > SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for a Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with the standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012. > > The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703. > https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf > > For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the different module "types" that are tested. > https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/ > The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and size of module. > > > > > > Sam Haraldson > Installation & Service Manager > > | o. (406) 551-6135 > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller > wrote: > Friends: > > > I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker: > > > Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC 690.43(B). > > > > Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K panels. Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this request? > > > I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a week or more to respond. > > > Thanks in advance. > > > William Miller > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bchurchill at energy-1.net Tue Jul 20 21:32:27 2021 From: bchurchill at energy-1.net (Barton Churchill) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:32:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <91A0CE3D-1C3C-4E1D-9FC8-43C520DEF261@energy-1.net> Glad you found it, Jay. You also don’t need to match the length of AC conductors on paralleled inverters. [cidb2f78c46-71ed-4265-93ae-19555889454e]Barton Churchill Director, Power Division 2042 Stadium Drive Suite 2 • Bozeman, MT 59715 • (O) 406-587-2917 • (D) 406-589-4493 235 E. Broadway • Jackson, WY 83001 • (O) 307-200-2210 bchurchill at energy-1.net | www.energy-1.net From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay Reply-To: RE-wrenches Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 7:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths HI Barton, Thanks for the explanation, and it confirms that battery one is doing more work than #6. jay On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Barton Churchill > wrote: I think you’ll find it stated in the Blue Planet installation manual. I’ve installed dozens of their systems over three years and never paid attention to cable length. One solar self consumption system I let run over the winter without ever reaching a full charge and the cabinets didn’t drift more than 10% SOC from each other. Blue planet does recommend a full charge at least once per month for balancing though. Matched cable length, again assuming properly sized, really doesn’t matter anymore. ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 7693 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Jul 20 21:24:53 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 18:24:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rebekah: Thanks for your help with this. Because I snapped up all of the 100 series rack I could (pun intended), I am past the recertification with newer modules. My argument is that although the rail was discontinued, the clips remain. What I did is extracted a page from the UR series manual showing testing with the Mission panels and inserted it into the permit set. I hope this sleight of hand passes plan check. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren *Sent:* Tuesday, July 20, 2021 6:20 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification Minor update, I got word from Snapnrack that: "The new protocol established with UL eliminates the need to include the wattage ranges for each module type" Still a pain and the manufacturer/model should be on the rack manufacturer list - but not down to the precise wattage - so slightly less of a pain. Rebekah Tel: 336.266.8800 On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:37 PM Rebekah Hren wrote: Hi William Groan, I don't see that precise model in the series 100 installation manual on pg 74 which is the bonding evaluation list of modules I hope for your sake Snapnrack will send an email the AHJ will accept that includes that module. I wish there was a reasonable workaround for AHJs here, like onsite resistance measurements. Good luck, Rebekah Tel: 336.266.8800 On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:36 PM Sam Haraldson wrote: The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with Type 1 and Type 2 modules. https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf *SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for a Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with the standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.* The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703. https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the different module "types" that are tested. https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/ *The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and size of module.* *Sam Haraldson * Installation & Service Manager | o. (406) 551-6135 On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker: *Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC 690.43(B).* Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K panels. Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this request? I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a week or more to respond. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Tue Jul 20 23:24:07 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:24:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tesla continues to maintain their Certified Installer network. Tesla Direct sells direct to the consumer/homeowner in a number of geographic territories. marco On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Didn't Tesla explicitly cut off it's dealer network and essentially tell > the world that they are only selling Powerwalls direct with purchase of PV > from Tesla? I thought Powerwall was essentially dead to smaller independent > dealers. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you. >> >> I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp >> production. >> >> Thanks for responding. >> >> marco >> >> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Marco, >>> >>> After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our >>> supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago. We have taken >>> zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of >>> customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not >>> getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either. We check in >>> with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next >>> quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip >>> shortage, etc). We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's >>> extremely frustrating. Predictable, but still frustrating. >>> >>> Best, >>> Blake >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Aloha all, >>>> >>>> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m >>>> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with >>>> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up >>>> switch”? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> marco >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner >>> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence >>> O: 510-845-2997 x128 >>> C: 510-867-5878 >>> >>> 1035 Folger Ave. >>> >>> Berkeley, CA 94710 >>> >>> www.sunlightandpower.com >>> License #326203 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Tue Jul 20 23:40:19 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 20:40:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, They announced that Tesla Direct would stop offering standalone Powerwall installs, and would only take orders for PV+Powerwall. That announcement has confused just about everyone because Tesla marketing is very LOUD and generally ignores the existence of non-Tesla certified installers like us. Again, frustrating, but not surprising... Blake Gleason, PE Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence Sun Light & Power On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:55 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Didn't Tesla explicitly cut off it's dealer network and essentially tell > the world that they are only selling Powerwalls direct with purchase of PV > from Tesla? I thought Powerwall was essentially dead to smaller independent > dealers. > > Jason > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you. >> >> I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp >> production. >> >> Thanks for responding. >> >> marco >> >> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Marco, >>> >>> After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our >>> supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago. We have taken >>> zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of >>> customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not >>> getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either. We check in >>> with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next >>> quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip >>> shortage, etc). We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's >>> extremely frustrating. Predictable, but still frustrating. >>> >>> Best, >>> Blake >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Aloha all, >>>> >>>> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m >>>> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with >>>> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up >>>> switch”? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> marco >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner >>> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence >>> O: 510-845-2997 x128 >>> C: 510-867-5878 >>> >>> 1035 Folger Ave. >>> >>> Berkeley, CA 94710 >>> >>> www.sunlightandpower.com >>> License #326203 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Wed Jul 21 00:14:57 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:14:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops, I meant "non-Tesla-Direct certified installers like us" (ie, independent Tesla dealers, versus Tesla's internal installation group) in the message below. (Thanks Marco!) Blake Gleason, PE Director of Innovation & Technical Excellence Sun Light & Power On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > Jason, > > They announced that Tesla Direct would stop offering standalone Powerwall > installs, and would only take orders for PV+Powerwall. > > That announcement has confused just about everyone because Tesla marketing > is very LOUD and generally ignores the existence of non-Tesla certified > installers like us. > > Again, frustrating, but not surprising... > > Blake Gleason, PE > Director of Innovation > & Technical Excellence > Sun Light & Power > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:55 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Didn't Tesla explicitly cut off it's dealer network and essentially tell >> the world that they are only selling Powerwalls direct with purchase of PV >> from Tesla? I thought Powerwall was essentially dead to smaller independent >> dealers. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf >> wrote: >> >>> Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you. >>> >>> I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp >>> production. >>> >>> Thanks for responding. >>> >>> marco >>> >>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Marco, >>>> >>>> After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our >>>> supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago. We have taken >>>> zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of >>>> customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not >>>> getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either. We check in >>>> with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next >>>> quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip >>>> shortage, etc). We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's >>>> extremely frustrating. Predictable, but still frustrating. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Blake >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Aloha all, >>>>> >>>>> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m >>>>> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with >>>>> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up >>>>> switch”? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> marco >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner >>>> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence >>>> O: 510-845-2997 x128 >>>> C: 510-867-5878 >>>> >>>> 1035 Folger Ave. >>>> >>>> Berkeley, CA 94710 >>>> >>>> www.sunlightandpower.com >>>> License #326203 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Jul 21 04:27:22 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 01:27:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CF7A557-16E6-4B74-97F8-CE90610C879F@me.com> Good evening Barton and Jay, Is this recent that Blue Planet’s tech support says not to worry about parallel cable lengths? They’ve said for years to try and match them and it is even noted that “All parallel battery connections to be of equal length” on the three line diagram on page 31 of the rev 071219 B manual that they’ve been including with the 2.0 cabinet for the last couple years. The other few competing LiFePO4 manufacturers currently on the market mention it in their manuals as well. Seems like an odd departure all of a sudden if you heard otherwise? I don’t see it in the HI manual so maybe they determined it’s not important anymore? Certainly would save a lot of copper on my BI installations if they no longer are concerned about it. I’ve been meticulously matching lengths for years! Nick > On Jul 20, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. > > What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the same length? > > How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than battery 6 > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From kirkh at vermont.solar Wed Jul 21 07:16:04 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:16:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> <85b7f2878f48b3686103e2f3ac3edbdb@127.0.0.1> <,> Message-ID: yes, each 2kw battery module has on-board electronics which the BMU regulates, trying to maintain equal charge/discharge. This is viewable real-time in the BI HV Ageto controller display (per BMU cabinet). My particular HV install has a 50' DC bus w/ inputs and outputs attached at various points. No consideration to cable lengths required.  Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 7/20/2021 6:54:00 PM, Barton Churchill wrote: I think you’ll find it stated in the Blue Planet installation manual. I’ve installed dozens of their systems over three years and never paid attention to cable length. One solar self consumption system I let run over the winter without ever reaching a full charge and the cabinets didn’t drift more than 10% SOC from each other. Blue planet does recommend a full charge at least once per month for balancing though. Matched cable length, again assuming properly sized, really doesn’t matter anymore.  From: RE-wrenches on behalf of jay Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:13:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths   HI Barton, OK so please explain how the BMU/BMS is controlling watt hrs between the batteries as I’ve not heard that this is possible. The batteries are Blue planet jay On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Barton Churchill < bchurchill at energy-1.net [mailto:bchurchill at energy-1.net]> wrote: If each lithium battery has an internal BMU and your wires are sized properly for their output it does not matter. From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:02:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths   Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close.  Why would you not do this Jay? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=sti.net&u=aHR0cDovL21lbWJlcnMuc3RpLm5ldC9vZmZncmlkc29sYXIv&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZURpZGJ5TUxIbHJ6RnlSV1R6dVh6R2ZzMXM1dktRb2kxakRuQzRYa1hwMD0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 [https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com/?d=sti.net&u=aHR0cDovL21lbWJlcnMuc3RpLm5ldC9vZmZncmlkc29sYXIv&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZURpZGJ5TUxIbHJ6RnlSV1R6dVh6R2ZzMXM1dktRb2kxakRuQzRYa1hwMD0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from > furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from > 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. > > What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the > same length?  > > How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no > worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than > battery 6 > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL3JlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZw==&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZzJIYlNiOVpTSk1sdVJlYWs3Tk1hSWhlMC9yRjMyQjN1LzZEOE9Pa3drZz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 [https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com/?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL3JlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZw==&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZzJIYlNiOVpTSk1sdVJlYWs3Tk1hSWhlMC9yRjMyQjN1LzZEOE9Pa3drZz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1] > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL2xpc3RzLnJlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZy9vcHRpb25zLmNnaS9yZS13cmVuY2hlcy1yZS13cmVuY2hlcy5vcmc=&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=NVlGNklPMUN2VEVKcE9jTmhpWUp0TlE4Z25QeU00OEZTRjdVVWdKTlJ4dz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1 [https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com/?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL2xpc3RzLnJlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZy9vcHRpb25zLmNnaS9yZS13cmVuY2hlcy1yZS13cmVuY2hlcy5vcmc=&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=NVlGNklPMUN2VEVKcE9jTmhpWUp0TlE4Z25QeU00OEZTRjdVVWdKTlJ4dz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1] > > There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Jul 21 09:22:41 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 13:22:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG Message-ID: What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. It’s shutting down with LBCO error. I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. What else can be checked , battery wise? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Jul 21 09:58:09 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:58:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24af6cae-b5e1-b780-8ae4-7aa03822196d@psln.com> Jeremy,             My response is welcome to the world of FLA batteries.  I see variations like this all the time.  Are you using a refractometer or hydrometer, are all the cells same manufacture date, are some cells warmer than others, terminal connections all clean?  I've tried "correcting" this from happening many times to no avail or marginal help despite longer absorb times or EQ-ing.  Some of the packs I maintain have different manufacture dates within the pack which I've assumed may have an affect. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 On 7/21/2021 6:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the > batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. > The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. > It’s shutting down with LBCO error. > I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. > What else can be checked , battery wise? > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Wed Jul 21 09:58:54 2021 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:58:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Same situation here. Supply completely dried up and we got the same, tired excuses. Lot's of unhappy customers who point the finger at us. We have finally started getting some shipments but nothing close to the promises we received over a year ago. On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 5:04 PM Blake Gleason wrote: > Hi Marco, > > After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our supply > from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago. We have taken zero > deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of > customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not > getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either. We check in > with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next > quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip > shortage, etc). We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's > extremely frustrating. Predictable, but still frustrating. > > Best, > Blake > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > >> Aloha all, >> >> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m >> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with >> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up >> switch”? >> >> Thanks, >> marco >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner > Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence > O: 510-845-2997 x128 > C: 510-867-5878 > > 1035 Folger Ave. > Berkeley, CA 94710 > www.sunlightandpower.com > License #326203 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative] Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist Board Member & Worker Owner loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop Office: (530) 274-3671 Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 [image: NABCEP] -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 21 10:21:30 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:21:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: <24af6cae-b5e1-b780-8ae4-7aa03822196d@psln.com> References: <24af6cae-b5e1-b780-8ae4-7aa03822196d@psln.com> Message-ID: <6b7fe00aa87dea3d66edffc9db158462@127.0.0.1> Adding to Bill, You need to find out what caused the LBCO? A battery summary screen will "show" when this happened in the 24 hour day? It may have nothing to do with the battery and may be load related? Since they are 7 years old, they may have good SG but very little capacity left! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:58:09 -0700, frenergy wrote: Jeremy, My response is welcome to the world of FLA batteries. I see variations like this all the time. Are you using a refractometer or hydrometer, are all the cells same manufacture date, are some cells warmer than others, terminal connections all clean? I've tried "correcting" this from happening many times to no avail or marginal help despite longer absorb times or EQ-ing. Some of the packs I maintain have different manufacture dates within the pack which I've assumed may have an affect. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 On 7/21/2021 6:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: What's going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. It's shutting down with LBCO error. I need to go check the site, but I'd expect a dead or weak cell here. What else can be checked , battery wise? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [3] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [4] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [5] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 10:02:08 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:02:08 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> Hi Jeremy I would like to know brand and model of battery first. Jay Peltz power > On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > >  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. > The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. > It’s shutting down with LBCO error. > I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. > What else can be checked , battery wise? > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 10:20:09 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:20:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: And what color is the electrolyte? > On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > Hi Jeremy > > I would like to know brand and model of battery first. > > Jay > Peltz power > >>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> >>  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. >> The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. >> It’s shutting down with LBCO error. >> I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. >> What else can be checked , battery wise? >> >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Jul 21 10:43:38 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 14:43:38 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Deka 8L16 Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:24 AM, Jay wrote:  And what color is the electrolyte? On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay wrote:  Hi Jeremy I would like to know brand and model of battery first. Jay Peltz power On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. It’s shutting down with LBCO error. I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. What else can be checked , battery wise? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jul 21 10:44:31 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:44:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. Open Cell and Shorted. Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank sags. This is the most common type of failure. Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to pass on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of the cells in the string become "overcharged". Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the plates. To figure this out what you need to do is... 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as they discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage before the rest you have weak or dying cells. My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason for the LBCO... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay wrote: > And what color is the electrolyte? > > On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > Hi Jeremy > > I would like to know brand and model of battery first. > > Jay > Peltz power > > On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > >  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the > batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. > The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. > It’s shutting down with LBCO error. > I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. > What else can be checked , battery wise? > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Jul 21 10:51:22 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:51:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy; Based on the age, and brand, I'd say its time for new batteries. Steve's comments, as always, are great information.  From my experience, L16s are fairly unpredictable, and you could start seeing cell failures this next cold season. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/21/21 10:43 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Deka 8L16 > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > >> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:24 AM, Jay wrote: >> >>  >> And what color is the electrolyte? >> >>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Jeremy >>> >>> I would like to know brand and model of battery first. >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power >>> >>>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all >>>> the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. >>>> The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time >>>> residence. >>>> It’s shutting down with LBCO error. >>>> I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. >>>> What else can be checked , battery wise? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>> 1453 M St >>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>> >>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Jul 21 10:54:35 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 14:54:35 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Okay Is there a quick way to run on just one string? Or should I say determine which batteries would make a good string. I’d normally say, find the best batteries based on specific gravity and use them, but in this case all specific gravity‘s seem good. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Steve Higgins wrote:  FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. Open Cell and Shorted. Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank sags. This is the most common type of failure. Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to pass on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of the cells in the string become "overcharged". Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the plates. To figure this out what you need to do is... 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as they discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage before the rest you have weak or dying cells. My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason for the LBCO... [https://imgur.com/hENEoQQ.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] [https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay > wrote: And what color is the electrolyte? On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay > wrote:  Hi Jeremy I would like to know brand and model of battery first. Jay Peltz power On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote:  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. It’s shutting down with LBCO error. I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. What else can be checked , battery wise? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.membe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jul 21 10:58:58 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:58:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jeremy... A single string of 6v L16 @ 48 volts you will want to run about 30-40 amps of discharge current... This with losses is about 1500 to 1800 watts. Make sure the battery is charged, Run the loads Measure the Batteries... my bet is since you are getting a LBCO drop out the battery in question will fall off quickly Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Okay > Is there a quick way to run on just one string? Or should I say determine > which batteries would make a good string. > I’d normally say, find the best batteries based on specific gravity and > use them, but in this case all specific gravity‘s seem good. > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > >  > FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. > > Open Cell and Shorted. > > Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies > voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank > sags. This is the most common type of failure. > > Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to pass > on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge > condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of > the cells in the string become "overcharged". > > Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will > see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. > > Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too > high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this > causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and > will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank > dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. > > Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher > acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like > sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the > higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the > plates. > > To figure this out what you need to do is... > > 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. > 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) > 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. > You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. > 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. > > individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as they > discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage before > the rest you have weak or dying cells. > My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason > for the LBCO... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <#m_-602769012660050662_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay wrote: > >> And what color is the electrolyte? >> >> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay wrote: >> >>  >> Hi Jeremy >> >> I would like to know brand and model of battery first. >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez >> wrote: >> >>  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the >> batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. >> The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. >> It’s shutting down with LBCO error. >> I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. >> What else can be checked , battery wise? >> >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.membe > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Jul 21 11:45:32 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:45:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Steve, Do you measure voltage of each battery with them disconnected or as is. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Steve Higgins wrote:  Jeremy... A single string of 6v L16 @ 48 volts you will want to run about 30-40 amps of discharge current... This with losses is about 1500 to 1800 watts. Make sure the battery is charged, Run the loads Measure the Batteries... my bet is since you are getting a LBCO drop out the battery in question will fall off quickly [https://imgur.com/hENEoQQ.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] [https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Okay Is there a quick way to run on just one string? Or should I say determine which batteries would make a good string. I’d normally say, find the best batteries based on specific gravity and use them, but in this case all specific gravity‘s seem good. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Steve Higgins > wrote:  FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. Open Cell and Shorted. Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank sags. This is the most common type of failure. Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to pass on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of the cells in the string become "overcharged". Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the plates. To figure this out what you need to do is... 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as they discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage before the rest you have weak or dying cells. My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason for the LBCO... [https://imgur.com/hENEoQQ.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] [https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay > wrote: And what color is the electrolyte? On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay > wrote:  Hi Jeremy I would like to know brand and model of battery first. Jay Peltz power On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote:  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. It’s shutting down with LBCO error. I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. What else can be checked , battery wise? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.membe _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Jul 21 11:48:24 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:48:24 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: You measure each battery with a voltmeter while under load. You do not have to measure them out of the circuit. Give me a call at 902-597-4020 and I talk you through it. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 8:45 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Steve, > Do you measure voltage of each battery with them disconnected or as is. > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > >  > Jeremy... > > A single string of 6v L16 @ 48 volts you will want to run about 30-40 amps > of discharge current... This with losses is about 1500 to 1800 watts. > > Make sure the battery is charged, > > Run the loads > > Measure the Batteries... my bet is since you are getting a LBCO drop out > the battery in question will fall off quickly > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <#m_-4333739815912317227_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > >> Okay >> Is there a quick way to run on just one string? Or should I say determine >> which batteries would make a good string. >> I’d normally say, find the best batteries based on specific gravity and >> use them, but in this case all specific gravity‘s seem good. >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> >> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: >> >>  >> FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. >> >> Open Cell and Shorted. >> >> Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies >> voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank >> sags. This is the most common type of failure. >> >> Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to >> pass on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge >> condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of >> the cells in the string become "overcharged". >> >> Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will >> see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. >> >> Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too >> high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this >> causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and >> will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank >> dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. >> >> Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher >> acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like >> sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the >> higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the >> plates. >> >> To figure this out what you need to do is... >> >> 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. >> 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) >> 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. >> You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. >> 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. >> >> individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as >> they discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage >> before the rest you have weak or dying cells. >> My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason >> for the LBCO... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >> >> <#m_-4333739815912317227_m_-602769012660050662_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged >> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the >> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If >> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or >> destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> And what color is the electrolyte? >>> >>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Jeremy >>> >>> I would like to know brand and model of battery first. >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power >>> >>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>> wrote: >>> >>>  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the >>> batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. >>> The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. >>> It’s shutting down with LBCO error. >>> I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. >>> What else can be checked , battery wise? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1453 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.membe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 15:06:43 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 12:06:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, wrenches Does not sound like fortress or blue planet, are these 12's or 24 volt packs, no interconnecting BMS so resistance is not in check, voltage and SOC neither. If you interlace the packs AKA 1,3,5,7,6,4 rather then 1,2,3 can you reduce or even balance the cables. Jerry On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 4:19 PM Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from > furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from > 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. > > What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the > same length? > > How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no > worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than > battery 6 > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 18:19:35 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:19:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: <4CF7A557-16E6-4B74-97F8-CE90610C879F@me.com> References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> <4CF7A557-16E6-4B74-97F8-CE90610C879F@me.com> Message-ID: <129480B7-1083-410F-AF33-F1B3A96CA099@gmail.com> HI Nick, Yes my friend called them directly, he was working with them on this project and they said no problem with unequal cable lenghts. jay > On Jul 21, 2021, at 2:27 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > > Good evening Barton and Jay, > > Is this recent that Blue Planet’s tech support says not to worry about parallel cable lengths? They’ve said for years to try and match them and it is even noted that “All parallel battery connections to be of equal length” on the three line diagram on page 31 of the rev 071219 B manual that they’ve been including with the 2.0 cabinet for the last couple years. The other few competing LiFePO4 manufacturers currently on the market mention it in their manuals as well. Seems like an odd departure all of a sudden if you heard otherwise? I don’t see it in the HI manual so maybe they determined it’s not important anymore? Certainly would save a lot of copper on my BI installations if they no longer are concerned about it. I’ve been meticulously matching lengths for years! > > Nick > >> On Jul 20, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi all >> >> I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. >> >> What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the same length? >> >> How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than battery 6 >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Jul 21 21:13:22 2021 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:13:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths In-Reply-To: <129480B7-1083-410F-AF33-F1B3A96CA099@gmail.com> References: <5B9AADB7-883C-4D28-9303-3BAD90292C4F@gmail.com> <4CF7A557-16E6-4B74-97F8-CE90610C879F@me.com> <129480B7-1083-410F-AF33-F1B3A96CA099@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d06f5f4-705f-2323-5eda-f1ef69c782f3@midnitesolar.com> Remember that cable resistance isn't the only thing to think about for battery cables from inverter to batteries... Cable inductance can matter too which is made better by keeping positive and negative cables close together and also keeping them short as possible. boB On 7/21/2021 3:19 PM, jay wrote: > HI Nick, > > Yes my friend called them directly, he was working with them on this project and they said no problem with unequal cable lenghts. > > jay > > > >> On Jul 21, 2021, at 2:27 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: >> >> Good evening Barton and Jay, >> >> Is this recent that Blue Planet’s tech support says not to worry about parallel cable lengths? They’ve said for years to try and match them and it is even noted that “All parallel battery connections to be of equal length” on the three line diagram on page 31 of the rev 071219 B manual that they’ve been including with the 2.0 cabinet for the last couple years. The other few competing LiFePO4 manufacturers currently on the market mention it in their manuals as well. Seems like an odd departure all of a sudden if you heard otherwise? I don’t see it in the HI manual so maybe they determined it’s not important anymore? Certainly would save a lot of copper on my BI installations if they no longer are concerned about it. I’ve been meticulously matching lengths for years! >> >> Nick >> >>> On Jul 20, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Jay wrote: >>> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. >>> >>> What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the same length? >>> >>> How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than battery 6 >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From william at millersolar.com Thu Jul 22 17:31:29 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:31:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian generator disconnect message Message-ID: <7ED244D2-592C-47E8-B2BF-0BBE94AC9908@millersolar.com> Friends: On the generator disconnect sub-menu it says “VAC INSTANT HIGH Y’”. On long hold with tech support. Anyone know what this means? William Miller www.millersolar.com From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 21:01:06 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 19:01:06 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost effective 4 pole HV disconnect Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, What's the most cost effective way to disconnect 4 poles of 600Vdc? Need to do 2 strings, both + & -. Preferably fusible. This comes up a lot in our designs Thanks in advance for your thoughts -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sat Jul 24 09:12:41 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 13:12:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> , Message-ID: I Isolated the two strings and load tested. I ran about 1500 watts for 10-12 min while monitoring the voltages. I saw them drop from 6v to 5.5, 5.3 the lowest, over that time. I didn’t have a lot of time to test, but none dropped drastically. Checked both strings. The electrolyte was clear when I checked cells. 1.265- 1.275 No residue on the caps I did note that all the positive Posts have “grown” and cause the case to start cracking slightly around the post. I’ve seen this a lot with Deka. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Steve Higgins wrote:  Jeremy... A single string of 6v L16 @ 48 volts you will want to run about 30-40 amps of discharge current... This with losses is about 1500 to 1800 watts. Make sure the battery is charged, Run the loads Measure the Batteries... my bet is since you are getting a LBCO drop out the battery in question will fall off quickly [https://imgur.com/hENEoQQ.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] [https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Okay Is there a quick way to run on just one string? Or should I say determine which batteries would make a good string. I’d normally say, find the best batteries based on specific gravity and use them, but in this case all specific gravity‘s seem good. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Steve Higgins > wrote:  FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. Open Cell and Shorted. Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank sags. This is the most common type of failure. Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to pass on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of the cells in the string become "overcharged". Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the plates. To figure this out what you need to do is... 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as they discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage before the rest you have weak or dying cells. My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason for the LBCO... [https://imgur.com/hENEoQQ.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] [https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay > wrote: And what color is the electrolyte? On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay > wrote:  Hi Jeremy I would like to know brand and model of battery first. Jay Peltz power On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote:  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. It’s shutting down with LBCO error. I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. What else can be checked , battery wise? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.membe _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Sat Jul 24 09:17:30 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 13:17:30 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Deka 8L16 In-Reply-To: References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Steve I Isolated the two strings and load tested. I ran about 1500 watts for 10-12 min while monitoring the voltages. I saw them drop from 6v to 5.5, 5.3 the lowest, over that time. I didn’t have a lot of time to test, but none dropped drastically. Checked both strings. The electrolyte was clear when I checked cells. 1.265- 1.275 No residue on the caps I did note that all the positive Posts have “grown” and cause the case to start cracking slightly around the post. I’ve seen this a lot with Deka. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 9:48 AM, Steve Higgins wrote:  You measure each battery with a voltmeter while under load. You do not have to measure them out of the circuit. Give me a call at 902-597-4020 and I talk you through it. [https://imgur.com/hENEoQQ.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] [https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 8:45 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Steve, Do you measure voltage of each battery with them disconnected or as is. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Steve Higgins > wrote:  Jeremy... A single string of 6v L16 @ 48 volts you will want to run about 30-40 amps of discharge current... This with losses is about 1500 to 1800 watts. Make sure the battery is charged, Run the loads Measure the Batteries... my bet is since you are getting a LBCO drop out the battery in question will fall off quickly [https://imgur.com/hENEoQQ.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] [https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Okay Is there a quick way to run on just one string? Or should I say determine which batteries would make a good string. I’d normally say, find the best batteries based on specific gravity and use them, but in this case all specific gravity‘s seem good. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Steve Higgins > wrote:  FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. Open Cell and Shorted. Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank sags. This is the most common type of failure. Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to pass on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of the cells in the string become "overcharged". Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the plates. To figure this out what you need to do is... 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as they discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage before the rest you have weak or dying cells. My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason for the LBCO... [https://imgur.com/hENEoQQ.png] Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/facebook_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/twitter_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/youtube_square_gray-24.png] [http://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/linkedin_square_gray-24.png] [https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/free-social-icons/67/instagram_square-24.png] ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ________________________________ On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay > wrote: And what color is the electrolyte? On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay > wrote:  Hi Jeremy I would like to know brand and model of battery first. Jay Peltz power On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote:  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. It’s shutting down with LBCO error. I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. What else can be checked , battery wise? Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.membe _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Sat Jul 24 10:41:21 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 07:41:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost effective 4 pole HV disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3f4cc08b-a4fc-5e8e-65f0-f79026623259@psln.com> Mac,             How many amps? Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 7/22/2021 6:01 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > What's the most cost effective way to disconnect 4 poles of 600Vdc?  > Need to do 2 strings, both + & -. Preferably fusible.  This comes up a > lot in our designs > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Jul 24 10:49:05 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 10:49:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost effective 4 pole HV disconnect Message-ID: How about two IMO switches?-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac LewisDate: Thu, Jul 22, 2021 9:01 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Cost effective 4 pole HV disconnectHi Wrenches, What's the most cost effective way to disconnect 4 poles of 600Vdc?  Need to do 2 strings, both + & -.  Preferably fusible.  This comes up a lot in our designsThanks in advance for your thoughts-- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 09:32:50 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 07:32:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68B103F4-B678-4B04-BFB3-1AAC6ECB47AC@gmail.com> Hi Jeremy, In looking at the Deka site, most all the L16’s have about 1000 cycles to 50%. To get 7 years from them is really good. To me the fact that they are all so close in SG and voltage readings means they were really well made and have just worn out as a uniform bank. Time for new batteries. If you are looking to replace them with flooded, I’d recommend the Rolls L16 EX model. 3400 cycles to 50%, for just a bit more $ than the Dekas snd include water miser caps. And the carbon provides really good PSOC operation. Jay Peltz power. > On Jul 24, 2021, at 7:12 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > >  I Isolated the two strings and load tested. I ran about 1500 watts for 10-12 min while monitoring the voltages. > I saw them drop from 6v to 5.5, 5.3 the lowest, over that time. I didn’t have a lot of time to test, but none dropped drastically. Checked both strings. > The electrolyte was clear when I checked cells. 1.265- 1.275 > No residue on the caps > I did note that all the positive Posts have “grown” and cause the case to start cracking slightly around the post. > I’ve seen this a lot with Deka. > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > >>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: >>> >>  >> Jeremy... >> >> A single string of 6v L16 @ 48 volts you will want to run about 30-40 amps of discharge current... This with losses is about 1500 to 1800 watts. >> >> Make sure the battery is charged, >> >> Run the loads >> >> Measure the Batteries... my bet is since you are getting a LBCO drop out the battery in question will fall off quickly >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >> >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >> >> >>> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>> Okay >>> Is there a quick way to run on just one string? Or should I say determine which batteries would make a good string. >>> I’d normally say, find the best batteries based on specific gravity and use them, but in this case all specific gravity‘s seem good. >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1453 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> >>>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: >>>> >>>>  >>>> FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. >>>> >>>> Open Cell and Shorted. >>>> >>>> Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank sags. This is the most common type of failure. >>>> >>>> Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to pass on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of the cells in the string become "overcharged". >>>> >>>> Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. >>>> >>>> Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. >>>> >>>> Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the plates. >>>> >>>> To figure this out what you need to do is... >>>> >>>> 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. >>>> 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) >>>> 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. >>>> 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. >>>> >>>> individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as they discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage before the rest you have weak or dying cells. >>>> My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason for the LBCO... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >>>> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >>>> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >>>> >>>> >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay wrote: >>>>> And what color is the electrolyte? >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Hi Jeremy >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to know brand and model of battery first. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jay >>>>>> Peltz power >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. >>>>>>> The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. >>>>>>> It’s shutting down with LBCO error. >>>>>>> I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. >>>>>>> What else can be checked , battery wise? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>>>>>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>>>>>> All Solar, Inc. >>>>>>> 1453 M St >>>>>>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.membe >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Sat Jul 24 11:46:47 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:46:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] High to normal SG In-Reply-To: References: <3B7F6DED-2F33-4803-BE8D-32CAD468FBE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jeremy, If they dropped and the voltage stayed within .2 to .4 of each other over this time, they are at or very close to the end of life, they need to be replaced. The fact that they dropped so fast indicates the end of life for those batteries. Positive post-growth is caused by two things. High temperatures, and over current while charging. Most FLA's don't like to be charged at over 20% of the C/20 rate. So assuming a 400 ah battery @ C/20 charging currents over 80 amps will increase temperatures so much that you will see the positive post rising out of the battery. It can happen to both, but it's more prevalent with the positive posts. Sorry Jeremy, but this battery bank has seen its best days... I don't think the customer has much time with these left, they definitely won't make it thru another fall/winter with these. If you are going to stick with FLA I would get the replacements in before fall as you want a couple of months of decent sun/cycling to fully form the next bank before winter. Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 6:12 AM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > I Isolated the two strings and load tested. I ran about 1500 watts for > 10-12 min while monitoring the voltages. > I saw them drop from 6v to 5.5, 5.3 the lowest, over that time. I didn’t > have a lot of time to test, but none dropped drastically. Checked both > strings. > The electrolyte was clear when I checked cells. 1.265- 1.275 > No residue on the caps > I did note that all the positive Posts have “grown” and cause the case to > start cracking slightly around the post. > I’ve seen this a lot with Deka. > > > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > >  > Jeremy... > > A single string of 6v L16 @ 48 volts you will want to run about 30-40 amps > of discharge current... This with losses is about 1500 to 1800 watts. > > Make sure the battery is charged, > > Run the loads > > Measure the Batteries... my bet is since you are getting a LBCO drop out > the battery in question will fall off quickly > > > > > > > > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > <#m_-7174697394681466163_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for > the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged > material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the > taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If > you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or > destroy this message and all copies. > ------------------------------ > > > On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > >> Okay >> Is there a quick way to run on just one string? Or should I say determine >> which batteries would make a good string. >> I’d normally say, find the best batteries based on specific gravity and >> use them, but in this case all specific gravity‘s seem good. >> >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> >> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:44 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: >> >>  >> FLA batteries cells fail generally in two manners. >> >> Open Cell and Shorted. >> >> Open Cells are more resistive and "Eat up" charging voltage which denies >> voltage and charging potential to the rest of the bank so the entire bank >> sags. This is the most common type of failure. >> >> Shorted Cells are less resistive so they allow voltage and current to >> pass on to the rest of the cells in the string. This causes an overcharge >> condition because the dead cell isn't dropping any voltage and the rest of >> the cells in the string become "overcharged". >> >> Sometimes SG's will look good, but when the bank is under load you will >> see the voltage drop off quickly. This is often the shorted cell. >> >> Battery SG's are like Goldilocks and the three bears.. There is too >> high... Too low and Just right... Too low and you lose capacity and this >> causes sulfation, which will cause overheating, excessive water use, and >> will lead to failure. This is the most common way an FLA battery bank >> dies is low SG's are not corrected soon enough and the bank sulfates. >> >> Too high, and you'll get great capacity, for a while, but that higher >> acidity will cause corrosion on the plates which will act a lot like >> sulfation. On these, you will often see a darker electrolyte as the >> higher acidity/corrosion is eating away at the active material of the >> plates. >> >> To figure this out what you need to do is... >> >> 1. Charge the bank to what you think is full or close to it.. >> 2. Find the 10 Hour Discharge Rate of the bank. (C/10 Discharge Current) >> 3 Apply load as close as you can get it by running loads in the house. >> You will be running this test for 2-5 hours depending on test results. >> 4. Monitor battery voltages during this test every 30-60 mins. >> >> individual battery voltages should stay pretty close to each other as >> they discharge, If you start to see one or two batteries sag in voltage >> before the rest you have weak or dying cells. >> My bet is you have 1 or two cells that have failed and this is the reason >> for the LBCO... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager >> t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 >> f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com >> >> <#m_-7174697394681466163_m_-602769012660050662_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for >> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged >> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the >> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If >> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or >> destroy this message and all copies. >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 7:24 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> And what color is the electrolyte? >>> >>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 8:02 AM, Jay wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Jeremy >>> >>> I would like to know brand and model of battery first. >>> >>> Jay >>> Peltz power >>> >>> On Jul 21, 2021, at 7:22 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez >>> wrote: >>> >>>  What’s going on with a battery bank that reads 1.275 SG on all the >>> batteries but one, which has cell readings slightly higher. >>> The bank is probably 7 years old and this is not a full time residence. >>> It’s shutting down with LBCO error. >>> I need to go check the site, but I’d expect a dead or weak cell here. >>> What else can be checked , battery wise? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeremy Rodriguez >>> Solar Installation / Design Expert >>> All Solar, Inc. >>> 1453 M St >>> Penrose Colorado 81240 >>> >>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.membe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 12:26:09 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:26:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cost effective 4 pole HV disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These are single strings of modules, so the typical string amps is 10-12, fusing at 15-20A or so. On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 7:49 AM Glenn Burt wrote: > How about two IMO switches? > > -Glenn > Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors. > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Mac Lewis > *Date: *Thu, Jul 22, 2021 9:01 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches; > *Cc: * > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Cost effective 4 pole HV disconnect > > Hi Wrenches, > > What's the most cost effective way to disconnect 4 poles of 600Vdc? Need > to do 2 strings, both + & -. Preferably fusible. This comes up a lot in > our designs > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 13:03:39 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 11:03:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion troubleshooting Message-ID: Hey wrenches, Does anyone have any advice for troubleshooting Aquion batteries? This particular stack is an Aspen 48M-25.9. They are losing power on a nightly basis. I'm not seeing much technical literature out there and I'm not familiar with these batteries. Are there any common failures? How do you safely open the container to check parallel strings. It may not be worth digging too deep but I'd be interested in other opinions and experiences out there. Glad I didn't sell them to him! Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 13:09:11 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 10:09:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Personnelly l would replace the stack, rather than them loosing a charge there might just not be any charge to begin with. Once the batteries settle they just are dead. You can isolate and load test if that makes the customer feel better. Jerry On Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 10:03 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hey wrenches, > > Does anyone have any advice for troubleshooting Aquion batteries? This > particular stack is an Aspen 48M-25.9. They are losing power on a nightly > basis. I'm not seeing much technical literature out there and I'm not > familiar with these batteries. > > Are there any common failures? How do you safely open the container to > check parallel strings. It may not be worth digging too deep but I'd be > interested in other opinions and experiences out there. Glad I didn't sell > them to him! > > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Sat Jul 24 13:48:00 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 13:48:00 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion troubleshooting Message-ID: We had a system mysteriously begin to fail a couple of years ago, threw a boatload of labor time at it to troubleshoot, and finally split the cost of replacing it with the customer.I recommend replacement before making too much troubleshooting.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Mac LewisDate: Sat, Jul 24, 2021 1:03 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Aquion troubleshootingHey wrenches,Does anyone have any advice for troubleshooting Aquion batteries? This particular stack is an Aspen 48M-25.9. They are losing power on a nightly basis. I'm not seeing much technical literature out there and I'm not familiar with these batteries. Are there any common failures? How do you safely open the container to check parallel strings. It may not be worth digging too deep but I'd be interested in other opinions and experiences out there. Glad I didn't sell them to him!Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From don at energysolarnow.com Sat Jul 24 16:21:43 2021 From: don at energysolarnow.com (don at energysolarnow.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 13:21:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aquion troubleshooting Message-ID: <20210724132143.8b71096d7d88573c67c7101a41a0e3ba.fff8d6080f.wbe@email14.godaddy.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Mon Jul 26 11:02:36 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 10:02:36 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The legal and financial fallout from LG ESS inability to communicate RMA replacement timelines Message-ID: <00a401d7822f$45b48050$d11d80f0$@solarcentex.com> I wanted to let my professional peers know the disappointment I am having with LG ESS. The inability of LG to communicate warranty replacement timeline has resulted in legal action against me the installer. Maybe my alert here might save some of you similar angst. As much as I'd like to push back on the lawsuit from the customer, the potential damages outweigh the costs of providing the customer the full cost back of the SMA SBS and LG setup. It's all a math problem weighing expected outcomes. The main portion of my communication just now to LG: "I desire to process this battery for financial reimbursement under the warranty now as legal actions have been initiated against my company for failure to repair this defective battery. So, to minimize damages to my company, I will remove this entire system, reimburse the customer all money paid from him to me. I want to express my disappointment for not getting timely information on this system, despite repeated attempts by me to get a path forward from LG. I expect not to receive any LG ESS pushback on getting financial reimbursement for this battery under the warranty terms. As an aside, we still have not received a dime of reimbursement for the defective batteries we removed and returned to LG as my company's sole expense, but that is another discussion for follow up later. I understand that supply issues have delayed materiel delivery. But the inability to provide updates when sought by me multiple times so I could keep a customer informed have been neglected by LG ESS. Now my company will suffer the financial as well as reputational damage. This is hugely disappointing, especially since my company has installed so many LG Resu 10 and now the Prime 16. I will remove this "Wilson" battery this week from the home. I will package it for delivery back to SMA and will supply any distributor "proof of purchase" documentation. If there is further paper work you need for me to provide let me know. I cannot and will not provide any further on-site troubleshooting because of the legal situation." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 18:53:04 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:53:04 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote AC well pump Message-ID: Hi all, I have done no remote well pump system design. I have a potential client looking for help driving a remote AC deep well pump with PV. My first reaction is too say in order to do that, they will need an inverter and batteries as well as PV and charge controller. But it occurred to me to ask if there are simpler ways to accomplish this. I don't know any more about the situation, but wanted to see if anyone has idea how to potentially accomplish this without so much infrastructure before I had any more conversations with them. Thanks, Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Mon Jul 26 19:15:04 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:15:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lighter tubing? Message-ID: <006f01d78274$124ad3f0$36e07bd0$@solarwork.com> Hey all! I am proposing a [20] module, 35˚ tilt up array mounted on a flat roof in snow country - Central Idaho. Its in town, trees behind & off to the side a ways. The SnapnRack design calls for [21] Pieces of 1 ½” x 21’ sched 40 pipe +/-. I am trying to understand the need for sched 40 pipe on the vertical components of this array. Though if the horizontal members could be switched over to tube too that would be a big savings on weight. I hope to eliminate the sched 40 for steel tube [stronger metal thinner wall]. Without reinventing the wheel, has anyone approached this issue & how did you address it? Suggestions on beefy array systems that are lighter? Spec. [20] - Q-cell 340 watt modules. 5 columns of 4 modules. Snow-Load - 100 PSF. Tilt - 35˚ - The back & sides will be shrouded up to module on vertical members to prevent wind uplift. Wind - 90 MPH/3 sec microburst [though IF, this ever happened there would be trees & garbage cans flying.] Sched 40 -1 ½” pipe is 2.72#/ft. 1 7/8” steel tube is 1.25#/ft. Maybe we all use schedule 40 pipe because that’s what we have always done & locally available. Isn’t that’s what called recycled ignorance? Looking for options. In todays world marketplace I am questioning this approach. Thanks in advance. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 26 20:34:59 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 20:34:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lighter tubing? In-Reply-To: <006f01d78274$124ad3f0$36e07bd0$@solarwork.com> References: <006f01d78274$124ad3f0$36e07bd0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: We did a setup with the Snap N Rack rack on a roof once.  We just used the recommended galvanized SCH 40.  Its basically a readily available product.  I would be careful with other types of steel tubing: make sure it will fit the fittings.  We actually retrofitted a Snap N Rack to some existing pipe ground mount racking, and it turned out to be a slightly different diameter. Big pain.  2nd, make sure its galvanized, which can also slightly change the fit. 3rd,  if the snow load is 100 lb/ sq ft, your total array loading might be over 30,000 lbs.  Is saving a few pounds on the steel really worth considering?  Seems like your post bases on the roof are going to take quite a bit of engineering to support the snow load. Also, final note, the Snap N Rack setup doesn't do very good with uplift wind loading.  It just attaches with pinch bolts, so we had our one roof rack get sucked off the roof in a hurricane. We drilled holes and through bolted on the replacement array, but I'm sure we violated the Snap N Rack 10 commandments by doing that. I would consider other racks that might get the tilt with separate rows, and be overall lower to the roof?  Possibly a ballasted system? Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/26/21 7:15 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > > Hey all! > > I am proposing a [20] module, 35˚ tilt up array mounted on a flat roof > in snow country - Central Idaho. Its in town, trees behind & off to > the side a ways. > > The SnapnRack design calls for [21] Pieces of 1 ½” x 21’ sched 40 pipe > +/-. I am trying to understand the need for sched 40 pipe on the > vertical components of this array. Though if the horizontal members > could be switched over to tube too that would be a big savings on > weight. I hope to eliminate the sched 40 for steel tube [stronger > metal thinner wall]. > > Without reinventing the wheel, has anyone approached this issue & how > did you address it? > > Suggestions on beefy array systems that are lighter? > > Spec. > > [20] – Q-cell 340 watt modules.  5 columns of 4 modules. > > Snow-Load - 100 PSF. > > Tilt - 35˚ – The back & sides will be shrouded up to module on > vertical members to prevent wind uplift. > > Wind - 90 MPH/3 sec microburst [though IF, this ever happened there > would be trees & garbage cans flying.] > > Sched 40 -1 ½” pipe is 2.72#/ft. > > 1 7/8” steel tube is 1.25#/ft. > > Maybe we all use schedule 40 pipe because that’s what we have always > done & locally available. Isn’t that’s what called recycled ignorance? > Looking for options. In todays world marketplace I am questioning this > approach. > > Thanks in advance. > > Dana Orzel                              Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003                       dana at solarwork.com* > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > > _"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ > > *P*Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 21:14:39 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:14:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote AC well pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DC Directgrunfus sq flex they have depth, gmp and voltage options Jerry On Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 3:53 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: > Hi all, > I have done no remote well pump system design. I have a potential client > looking for help driving a remote AC deep well pump with PV. My first > reaction is too say in order to do that, they will need an inverter and > batteries as well as PV and charge controller. But it occurred to me to ask > if there are simpler ways to accomplish this. I don't know any more about > the situation, but wanted to see if anyone has idea how to potentially > accomplish this without so much infrastructure before I had any more > conversations with them. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 22:02:52 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 19:02:52 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote AC well pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie, There are many options for this equipment now. If the well pump motor is already installed, it may limit your options. If it hasn't, then there are a lot of good solar pumps available. Grundfos SQ Flex is solid from our experience. There are also drives that can take high voltage solar DC and drive a pump. These drives are kind of like an inverter and a high voltage MPPT device. They optimize the PV and try to drive the pump at the highest rate possible with the available wattage by varying the motor frequency (no battery necessary). Despite all of these features, they aren't very expensive. ABB makes them as do many others but you need to have someone solid helping you verify that the pump you want to drive is compatible and what you want to do makes sense. https://new.abb.com/drives/low-voltage-ac/machinery/ABB-solar-pump-drives I'd call ABB and try to get to a smart sperson to help with this if you go this route. These are more set up for 3 phase motors than single or split phase. However, its been a while since I went through the literature. Good luck with this On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 6:14 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > DC Directgrunfus sq flex they have depth, gmp and voltage options > Jerry > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 3:53 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I have done no remote well pump system design. I have a potential client >> looking for help driving a remote AC deep well pump with PV. My first >> reaction is too say in order to do that, they will need an inverter and >> batteries as well as PV and charge controller. But it occurred to me to ask >> if there are simpler ways to accomplish this. I don't know any more about >> the situation, but wanted to see if anyone has idea how to potentially >> accomplish this without so much infrastructure before I had any more >> conversations with them. >> Thanks, >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Jul 26 22:43:19 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:43:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote AC well pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <119f3340-5fd5-557c-12ff-86a81ef22b5a@solarray.com> It all comes down to how deep the well is, and how much water you need to pump.  For lower head, lower flow rates, just go with the SQF line.  If you need more water, then start looking into the other options. Just as with off grid homes, you need to carefully define the parameters:  depth to water, depth to bottom of well, well diamater at top and down hole,  the actual tested flow rate of the well, flow rate of the proposed pump, gal per day required summer, GPD winter. This is also one of the rare cases where array tracking might make sense.  In the summer you can start pumping much earlier and get much more water over the day.  Its also easier on a low flow well to pump a little bit through out the day, than have a big pump hit it hard a few times a day. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 7/26/21 10:02 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Howie, > > There are many options for this equipment now.  If the well pump motor > is already installed, it may limit your options. If it hasn't, then > there are a lot of good solar pumps available.  Grundfos SQ Flex is > solid from our experience. > > There are also drives that can take high voltage solar DC and drive a > pump.  These drives are kind of like an inverter and a high voltage > MPPT device.  They optimize the PV and try to drive the pump at the > highest rate possible with the available wattage by varying the motor > frequency (no battery necessary).  Despite all of these features, they > aren't very expensive.  ABB makes them as do many others but you need > to have someone solid helping you verify that the pump you want to > drive is compatible and what you want to do makes sense. > > https://new.abb.com/drives/low-voltage-ac/machinery/ABB-solar-pump-drives > > > I'd call ABB and try to get to a smart sperson to help with this if > you go this route.  These are more set up for 3 phase motors than > single or split phase.  However, its been a while since I went through > the literature. > > Good luck with this > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 6:14 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > DC Directgrunfus sq flex they have depth, gmp and voltage options > Jerry > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 3:53 PM Howie Michaelson > > > wrote: > > Hi all, > I have done no remote well pump system design. I have a > potential client looking for help driving a remote AC deep > well pump with PV. My first reaction is too say in order to do > that, they will need an inverter and batteries as well as PV > and charge controller. But it occurred to me to ask if there > are simpler ways to accomplish this. I don't know any more > about the situation, but wanted to see if anyone has idea how > to potentially accomplish this without so much infrastructure > before I had any more conversations with them. > Thanks, > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 22:45:12 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:45:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote AC well pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Jerry, that is what I would certainly suggest first, but I was just curious if there is a way to drive an AC pump with just PV before I suggest pulling the pump. Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 9:15 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > DC Directgrunfus sq flex they have depth, gmp and voltage options > Jerry > > On Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 3:53 PM Howie Michaelson > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I have done no remote well pump system design. I have a potential client >> looking for help driving a remote AC deep well pump with PV. My first >> reaction is too say in order to do that, they will need an inverter and >> batteries as well as PV and charge controller. But it occurred to me to ask >> if there are simpler ways to accomplish this. I don't know any more about >> the situation, but wanted to see if anyone has idea how to potentially >> accomplish this without so much infrastructure before I had any more >> conversations with them. >> Thanks, >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 21:49:05 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 19:49:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote AC well pump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Howie Yes ac PV direct is off the shelf these days. But typically with 3phase pumps. Tons of variables, how about some specifics as to depth, gpd required, gpm requested, well production, pumped height, location for starters. Jay Peltz power > On Jul 26, 2021, at 7:14 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > DC Directgrunfus sq flex they have depth, gmp and voltage options > Jerry > >> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021, 3:53 PM Howie Michaelson wrote: >> Hi all, >> I have done no remote well pump system design. I have a potential client looking for help driving a remote AC deep well pump with PV. My first reaction is too say in order to do that, they will need an inverter and batteries as well as PV and charge controller. But it occurred to me to ask if there are simpler ways to accomplish this. I don't know any more about the situation, but wanted to see if anyone has idea how to potentially accomplish this without so much infrastructure before I had any more conversations with them. >> Thanks, >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Tue Jul 27 09:49:29 2021 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:49:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar CS6P - 280 needed Message-ID: All, I am in need of a replacement module. Details are as follows Canadian Solar CS6P-280 60 cell silver frame poly anything in the 270-290W range would be OK dimensions 64.5 x 38.7 x 1.57 ( I can go up or down in physical a size a bit) Vmp=28.9 Imp=7.16 Voc=35.7 Isc=7.68 Contact me off list if you have something that might work. With Kind Regards Carl Adams SunRock Solar 513.290.9072 (mobile) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Jul 28 16:06:17 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 16:06:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Closed Loop comm LiFePO/inverter options Message-ID: <8AF143C2-C218-449B-AA3C-4EA616FC7DA7@sunwindpowerinc.com> Wrenches, We have a couple of resi clients that want us to provide whole house transfer (200A) PV systems with zero export to grid (utility doesn’t offer net metering so it makes no sense to sell to grid), LiFePO batt's, and 10kVA+ gensets. We did this a couple of years ago with a Schneider XW+ system with LA batt’s and a Brigg’s/Symphony X-fer (that had to be field reconfigured for AGS due to lack of 2 wire start), but it was not exactly a straightforward install and the system owner has never really mastered the operation of the system. I would really like to have closed loop comm’s between LiFePO batt’s and the inverter/charger. I’ve seen a number of references to SolArk on here, but I’ve also seen references to those inverters not being able to run motor loads (which seems REALLY ODD is this true?). These homes both have 1 or 2 - 5 Ton heat pumps, Fridge’s and Freezers plus all other regular house loads that they do not want to leave off in the event of a grid failure (somewhat frequent). My preference would be to use LA batt’s, but these customers are asking strongly for LiFePO. So, I’m reaching out to you guys to find out if you’ve come up against this use case to see what equipment you’re using? And before anyone suggests critical loads panels - these people do not want that. I know... Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 28 17:42:09 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:42:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Closed Loop comm LiFePO/inverter options In-Reply-To: <8AF143C2-C218-449B-AA3C-4EA616FC7DA7@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <8AF143C2-C218-449B-AA3C-4EA616FC7DA7@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <150882ce8d0d1312b56121c75ae553e2@127.0.0.1> There is an announcement next week of another battery that will close the loop with XW pro. It really is a matter of entering time and date and you are done. You do have to install the equipment still.... Meets UL 9540 also. Will start any motor that a home would have. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/ Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 16:06:17 -0400, Jeremy Coxon wrote: Wrenches, We have a couple of resi clients that want us to provide whole house transfer (200A) PV systems with zero export to grid (utility doesn't offer net metering so it makes no sense to sell to grid), LiFePO batt's, and 10kVA+ gensets. We did this a couple of years ago with a Schneider XW+ system with LA batt's and a Brigg's/Symphony X-fer (that had to be field reconfigured for AGS due to lack of 2 wire start), but it was not exactly a straightforward install and the system owner has never really mastered the operation of the system. I would really like to have closed loop comm's between LiFePO batt's and the inverter/charger. I've seen a number of references to SolArk on here, but I've also seen references to those inverters not being able to run motor loads (which seems REALLY ODD is this true?). These homes both have 1 or 2 - 5 Ton heat pumps, Fridge's and Freezers plus all other regular house loads that they do not want to leave off in the event of a grid failure (somewhat frequent). My preference would be to use LA batt's, but these customers are asking strongly for LiFePO. So, I'm reaching out to you guys to find out if you've come up against this use case to see what equipment you're using? And before anyone suggests critical loads panels - these people do not want that. I know... Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Jul 28 18:51:08 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:51:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] The legal and financial fallout from LG ESS inability to communicate RMA replacement timelines In-Reply-To: <00a401d7822f$45b48050$d11d80f0$@solarcentex.com> References: <00a401d7822f$45b48050$d11d80f0$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: Sorry to read of this Scott ! It is my belief that LG thinks it has a good product and that is where LG ESS stops caring. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 26 Jul 2021 10:02:36 -0500, wrote: I wanted to let my professional peers know the disappointment I am having with LG ESS. The inability of LG to communicate warranty replacement timeline has resulted in legal action against me the installer. Maybe my alert here might save some of you similar angst. As much as I'd like to push back on the lawsuit from the customer, the potential damages outweigh the costs of providing the customer the full cost back of the SMA SBS and LG setup. It's all a math problem weighing expected outcomes… The main portion of my communication just now to LG: "I DESIRE TO PROCESS THIS BATTERY FOR FINANCIAL REIMBURSEMENT UNDER THE WARRANTY NOW AS LEGAL ACTIONS HAVE BEEN INITIATED AGAINST MY COMPANY FOR FAILURE TO REPAIR THIS DEFECTIVE BATTERY. So, to minimize damages to my company, I will remove this entire system, reimburse the customer all money paid from him to me. I WANT TO EXPRESS MY DISAPPOINTMENT FOR NOT GETTING TIMELY INFORMATION ON THIS SYSTEM, DESPITE REPEATED ATTEMPTS BY ME TO GET A PATH FORWARD FROM LG. I expect not to receive any LG ESS pushback on getting financial reimbursement for this battery under the warranty terms. As an aside, we still have not received a dime of reimbursement for the defective batteries we removed and returned to LG as my company's sole expense, but that is another discussion for follow up later. I understand that supply issues have delayed materiel delivery. But the inability to provide updates when sought by me multiple times so I could keep a customer informed have been neglected by LG ESS. Now my company will suffer the financial as well as reputational damage. This is hugely disappointing, especially since my company has installed so many LG Resu 10 and now the Prime 16. I will remove this "Wilson" battery this week from the home. I will package it for delivery back to SMA and will supply any distributor "proof of purchase" documentation. If there is further paper work you need for me to provide let me know. I cannot and will not provide any further on-site troubleshooting because of the legal situation." Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 15:16:56 2021 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 12:16:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Autoformer and long AC run Message-ID: The system currently has a 600 foot run of 2-2-4 aluminum from the service to the house loads. The load is often only 120VAC which gives a large voltage drop using only the #2 and #4 conductors. My thought was to install an autotransformer at the load end so that the current runs through the #2 conductors at 240VAC for much less voltage drop. Are there any issues I should be looking at doing this? I’m thinking that to balance the legs a 4kVA autoformer would be adequate. The circuit is protected by 30A breakers both ends. Second question is if I could reduce the voltage drop even more by taking the #4 and paralleling it to one of the #2 conductors. This would eliminate the neutral on the long run. I’m thinking that the autoformer could generate a new neutral for the load circuits. This is an older install so the neutral is already grounded to earth at both ends, there is no ground wire between the two such as would be required by code now. I know that code does not allow paralleling conductors smaller than 1/0 but I will disregard that in this case since it’s my own system. If anyone has one of the old AEE toroid autoformers you’d like to sell, or if you want one yourself we can do a bulk buy. Let me know off list. Thanks, Brad Bassett AEE Solar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 3 10:13:41 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 10:13:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Autoformer and long AC run In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77828d46ac27403cef6f90c42c887ff3@redwoodalliance.org> Hi Brad, The auto transformer should work just fine. You should get 4X the efficiency with 1/2 the current and twice the Watts / Volt. I don't know how much benefit is available from paralleling wires of different sizes; it is not recommended practice of course. If you find a source for those old auto transformers, I'd sure like to know. Best, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-08-02 15:16, Bradley Bassett wrote: > The system currently has a 600 foot run of 2-2-4 aluminum from the service to the house loads. The load is often only 120VAC which gives a large voltage drop using only the #2 and #4 conductors. My thought was to install an autotransformer at the load end so that the current runs through the #2 conductors at 240VAC for much less voltage drop. Are there any issues I should be looking at doing this? I'm thinking that to balance the legs a 4kVA autoformer would be adequate. The circuit is protected by 30A breakers both ends. > > Second question is if I could reduce the voltage drop even more by taking the #4 and paralleling it to one of the #2 conductors. This would eliminate the neutral on the long run. I'm thinking that the autoformer could generate a new neutral for the load circuits. This is an older install so the neutral is already grounded to earth at both ends, there is no ground wire between the two such as would be required by code now. I know that code does not allow paralleling conductors smaller than 1/0 but I will disregard that in this case since it's my own system. > > If anyone has one of the old AEE toroid autoformers you'd like to sell, or if you want one yourself we can do a bulk buy. Let me know off list. > > Thanks, > > Brad Bassett > > AEE Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 3 10:15:50 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 10:15:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Autoformer and long AC run In-Reply-To: <77828d46ac27403cef6f90c42c887ff3@redwoodalliance.org> References: <77828d46ac27403cef6f90c42c887ff3@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I mean twice the Watts / Amp. --- On 2021-08-03 10:13, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > Hi Brad, > > The auto transformer should work just fine. You should get 4X the efficiency with 1/2 the current and twice the Watts / Volt. I don't know how much benefit is available from paralleling wires of different sizes; it is not recommended practice of course. > > If you find a source for those old auto transformers, I'd sure like to know. > > Best, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician's License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > --- > > On 2021-08-02 15:16, Bradley Bassett wrote: > >> The system currently has a 600 foot run of 2-2-4 aluminum from the service to the house loads. The load is often only 120VAC which gives a large voltage drop using only the #2 and #4 conductors. My thought was to install an autotransformer at the load end so that the current runs through the #2 conductors at 240VAC for much less voltage drop. Are there any issues I should be looking at doing this? I'm thinking that to balance the legs a 4kVA autoformer would be adequate. The circuit is protected by 30A breakers both ends. >> >> Second question is if I could reduce the voltage drop even more by taking the #4 and paralleling it to one of the #2 conductors. This would eliminate the neutral on the long run. I'm thinking that the autoformer could generate a new neutral for the load circuits. This is an older install so the neutral is already grounded to earth at both ends, there is no ground wire between the two such as would be required by code now. I know that code does not allow paralleling conductors smaller than 1/0 but I will disregard that in this case since it's my own system. >> >> If anyone has one of the old AEE toroid autoformers you'd like to sell, or if you want one yourself we can do a bulk buy. Let me know off list. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Brad Bassett >> >> AEE Solar >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Aug 4 15:59:08 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 12:59:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Schneider Support Message-ID: Longer support hours from Schneider Solar division. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/netsuite/?mc_cid=9f83a953de">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aaas.PNG Type: image/png Size: 27619 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 5 11:13:50 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 11:13:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Original Envoy Message-ID: <34db7395f06650c1630c4d972b88689c@redwoodalliance.org> Hello Wrenches, I'm looking for an original Envoy. I've looked on E Bay and searched the web, but so far no luck. Does anyone have one or know where one might be available? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 5 12:32:30 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:32:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Original Envoy In-Reply-To: <34db7395f06650c1630c4d972b88689c@redwoodalliance.org> References: <34db7395f06650c1630c4d972b88689c@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I have had no luck. Enphase sells the upgraded Envoy-S with plug and cord connection on their online store, at least last I checked. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 11:13 AM wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm looking for an original Envoy. I've looked on E Bay and searched the > web, but so far no luck. Does anyone have one or know where one might be > available? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Thu Aug 5 13:23:33 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 13:23:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Original Envoy In-Reply-To: <34db7395f06650c1630c4d972b88689c@redwoodalliance.org> References: <34db7395f06650c1630c4d972b88689c@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Drake, If you’re not in a hurry, when I upgrade my legacy system you can have mine. Contact me offline if interested. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Aug 5, 2021, at 11:14 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm looking for an original Envoy. I've looked on E Bay and searched the web, but so far no luck. Does anyone have one or know where one might be available? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Aug 5 15:45:03 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 15:45:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Original Envoy In-Reply-To: References: <34db7395f06650c1630c4d972b88689c@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Thanks Jason. The Envoy-S tends to be pricey, but we will likely need to bite the bullet! --- On 2021-08-05 12:32, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > I have had no luck. Enphase sells the upgraded Envoy-S with plug and cord connection on their online store, at least last I checked. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 11:13 AM wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I'm looking for an original Envoy. I've looked on E Bay and searched the >> web, but so far no luck. Does anyone have one or know where one might be >> available? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician's License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Aug 5 15:48:28 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 15:48:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Original Envoy In-Reply-To: References: <34db7395f06650c1630c4d972b88689c@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: I don't know that it was any more than the Envoy-R when they were offering it direct. It was pretty close if I recall correctly. The -S has so many advantages with the Installer Toolkit functionality. On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 3:45 PM wrote: > Thanks Jason. The Envoy-S tends to be pricey, but we will likely need to > bite the bullet! > --- > > > > On 2021-08-05 12:32, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > I have had no luck. Enphase sells the upgraded Envoy-S with plug and cord > connection on their online store, at least last I checked. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 11:13 AM > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > I'm looking for an original Envoy. I've looked on E Bay and searched the > web, but so far no luck. Does anyone have one or know where one might be > available? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 > CO Master Electrician's License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Thu Aug 5 20:07:41 2021 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 17:07:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Message-ID: <3DAA26F2-CFDA-4054-97A6-BC7DEF667877@solareagle.com> Magnum has been my go to inverter for off-grid systems for years, always found them to be solid and reliable. This year (at least in Canada) we are waiting literally months to fill orders on 4024’s, 4448 and other components. I know that in general there are supply line issues on everything due to Covid fallout of various kinds. But are US dealers/installers having the same problem with Magnum supply or is this a Canadian issue? Any comments on the new Midnite DIY inverters? Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at greenwired.com Thu Aug 5 20:12:57 2021 From: andrew at greenwired.com (Andrew Perkins) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 17:12:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?b?wqAgTWFnbnVt?= In-Reply-To: <3DAA26F2-CFDA-4054-97A6-BC7DEF667877@solareagle.com> References: <3DAA26F2-CFDA-4054-97A6-BC7DEF667877@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <17b18ce4928.b13a83999723.2371303839812063242@greenwired.com> Hey Ron,       It's not just you it's hard for us down here in the states. I had an RMA that took months to get a new inverter only to have FedEx abuse it so bad that I needed another RMA for an inverter I can't get so I'm looking at another month. They are starting to show back up though. Andrew PerkinsGreenwired ---- On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 17:07:41 -0700 solareagle at solareagle.com wrote ----Magnum has been my go to inverter for off-grid systems for years, always found them to be solid and reliable. This year (at least in Canada) we are waiting literally months to fill orders on 4024’s, 4448 and other components. I know that in general there are supply line issues on everything due to Covid fallout of various kinds. But are US dealers/installers having the same problem with Magnum supply or is this a Canadian issue?Any comments on the new Midnite DIY inverters?Ron YoungearthRight Products - Solareagle.com_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 04:44:51 2021 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 04:44:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?b?wqAgTWFnbnVt?= In-Reply-To: <17b18ce4928.b13a83999723.2371303839812063242@greenwired.com> References: <3DAA26F2-CFDA-4054-97A6-BC7DEF667877@solareagle.com> <17b18ce4928.b13a83999723.2371303839812063242@greenwired.com> Message-ID: <0E6205F9-C823-4864-A683-ED7126048146@gmail.com> Magnum has been my off grid inverter basically since they first come out I actually had serial number one of one of them and it would take a lot of research to figure out how many over the years but I used to buy direct from Magnum (I was simply in the right place at the right time talking to the right individual)! I understand that they have shipped production overseas and as you might expect apparently it’s not working out well. I have two that I would like to get some boards for to get them up and working instead of having them just laying around and I can’t stand to throw out what would be a good inverter with a simple board change ! But I’m not in a critical position so I will just wait just more dust to knock off them that’s all ! I hope they get it straightened around, Bob Ellison > On Aug 5, 2021, at 8:12 PM, Andrew Perkins wrote: > > > Hey Ron, > It's not just you it's hard for us down here in the states. I had an RMA that took months to get a new inverter only to have FedEx abuse it so bad that I needed another RMA for an inverter I can't get so I'm looking at another month. They are starting to show back up though. > > > Andrew Perkins > Greenwired > > > ---- On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 17:07:41 -0700 solareagle at solareagle.com wrote ---- > > Magnum has been my go to inverter for off-grid systems for years, always found them to be solid and reliable. This year (at least in Canada) we are waiting literally months to fill orders on 4024’s, 4448 and other components. I know that in general there are supply line issues on everything due to Covid fallout of various kinds. But are US dealers/installers having the same problem with Magnum supply or is this a Canadian issue? > > Any comments on the new Midnite DIY inverters? > > Ron Young > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 09:06:33 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 07:06:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?b?wqAgTWFnbnVt?= In-Reply-To: <0E6205F9-C823-4864-A683-ED7126048146@gmail.com> References: <0E6205F9-C823-4864-A683-ED7126048146@gmail.com> Message-ID: <76C1FE19-8A96-4969-96D2-2D4C0E86F142@gmail.com> Speaking of magnum Does anyone have a arc-50 lying around needing a home. ( could be used)A customer has an inverter and really needs the control. Thx Jay > On Aug 6, 2021, at 3:04 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > >  > Magnum has been my off grid inverter basically since they first come out > I actually had serial number one of one of them and it would take a lot of research to figure out how many over the years but I used to buy direct from Magnum (I was simply in the right place at the right time talking to the right individual)! > > I understand that they have shipped production overseas and as you might expect apparently it’s not working out well. > > I have two that I would like to get some boards for to get them up and working instead of having them just laying around and I can’t stand to throw out what would be a good inverter with a simple board change ! But I’m not in a critical position so I will just wait just more dust to knock off them that’s all ! > > I hope they get it straightened around, > > Bob Ellison > >> On Aug 5, 2021, at 8:12 PM, Andrew Perkins wrote: >> >> >> Hey Ron, >> It's not just you it's hard for us down here in the states. I had an RMA that took months to get a new inverter only to have FedEx abuse it so bad that I needed another RMA for an inverter I can't get so I'm looking at another month. They are starting to show back up though. >> >> >> Andrew Perkins >> Greenwired >> >> >> ---- On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 17:07:41 -0700 solareagle at solareagle.com wrote ---- >> >> Magnum has been my go to inverter for off-grid systems for years, always found them to be solid and reliable. This year (at least in Canada) we are waiting literally months to fill orders on 4024’s, 4448 and other components. I know that in general there are supply line issues on everything due to Covid fallout of various kinds. But are US dealers/installers having the same problem with Magnum supply or is this a Canadian issue? >> >> Any comments on the new Midnite DIY inverters? >> >> Ron Young >> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Fri Aug 6 10:54:57 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larry at starlightsolar.com) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 08:54:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?b?wqAgTWFnbnVt?= In-Reply-To: <76C1FE19-8A96-4969-96D2-2D4C0E86F142@gmail.com> References: <0E6205F9-C823-4864-A683-ED7126048146@gmail.com> <76C1FE19-8A96-4969-96D2-2D4C0E86F142@gmail.com> Message-ID: <145DE0B7-401E-4854-B2A3-02BD9DBF9BF7@starlightsolar.com> Jay, Is version 3.0 OK? I have a few of those. Larry On Aug 6, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Jay wrote: Speaking of magnum Does anyone have a arc-50 lying around needing a home. ( could be used)A customer has an inverter and really needs the control. Thx Jay > On Aug 6, 2021, at 3:04 AM, RE Ellison wrote: > >  > Magnum has been my off grid inverter basically since they first come out > I actually had serial number one of one of them and it would take a lot of research to figure out how many over the years but I used to buy direct from Magnum (I was simply in the right place at the right time talking to the right individual)! > > I understand that they have shipped production overseas and as you might expect apparently it’s not working out well. > > I have two that I would like to get some boards for to get them up and working instead of having them just laying around and I can’t stand to throw out what would be a good inverter with a simple board change ! But I’m not in a critical position so I will just wait just more dust to knock off them that’s all ! > > I hope they get it straightened around, > > Bob Ellison > > On Aug 5, 2021, at 8:12 PM, Andrew Perkins > wrote: > >> >> Hey Ron, >> It's not just you it's hard for us down here in the states. I had an RMA that took months to get a new inverter only to have FedEx abuse it so bad that I needed another RMA for an inverter I can't get so I'm looking at another month. They are starting to show back up though. >> >> >> Andrew Perkins >> Greenwired >> >> >> ---- On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 17:07:41 -0700 solareagle at solareagle.com wrote ---- >> >> Magnum has been my go to inverter for off-grid systems for years, always found them to be solid and reliable. This year (at least in Canada) we are waiting literally months to fill orders on 4024’s, 4448 and other components. I know that in general there are supply line issues on everything due to Covid fallout of various kinds. But are US dealers/installers having the same problem with Magnum supply or is this a Canadian issue? >> >> Any comments on the new Midnite DIY inverters? >> >> Ron Young >> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Aug 6 14:43:43 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 08:43:43 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] custom DC disconnect sought Message-ID: <009a01d78af2$fbeab260$f3c01720$@com> Aloha Wrenches and aloha happy Friday. I'm on the hunt for a U.L./ETL-affiliated shop that does custom disconnects. In this case a 12-circuit switching both poles in a NEMA3 or 4 non-metallic enclosure. Any suggestions (other than SolarBOS whom I've already left a message for) where to go for such a bugger? mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 15:17:37 2021 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 15:17:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] custom DC disconnect sought In-Reply-To: <009a01d78af2$fbeab260$f3c01720$@com> References: <009a01d78af2$fbeab260$f3c01720$@com> Message-ID: DC Sunvolt doesn’t show anything like that on their website but years ago we used to by stuff from them and I think I remember that they can make discos to your specs ? https://shop.dcsunvolt.com/Small-DC-Disconnects_c4.htm?page=2 On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 2:43 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha Wrenches and aloha happy Friday. > > > > I’m on the hunt for a U.L./ETL-affiliated shop that does custom > disconnects. In this case a 12-circuit switching both poles in a NEMA3 or > 4 non-metallic enclosure. > > > > Any suggestions (other than SolarBOS whom I’ve already left a message for) > where to go for such a bugger? > > > > mahalo, > > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Sat Aug 7 19:12:19 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 16:12:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? In-Reply-To: References: <029d01d75c66$54d20ab0$fe762010$@gmail.com> <728bbaed-ecba-8c6b-4b72-9ce6dd51f463@villagelab.net> <4fdb89df-b258-b9b0-97b6-fea22e7579f5@villagepowerdesign.com> <6bda0449fbf9a0030bc827a0b91a578c@redwoodalliance.org> <73c2a47d-59dd-7ce3-dbe4-5b3ce3f25a9f@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <00c801d78be1$ac349a70$049dcf50$@solarwindworks.com> I have had success with putting together either (3, for 24 v systems) or (6, for 48 v systems) 9 V Duracell batteries to jump start off grid OutBack systems when their battery banks have been unattended for too long, last one sat for a year & a half due to the covid before the owners got back into their remote cabin. The 24 v battery bank measured ~ 4 volts. I was able to re-awaken the OB MX60 and FX2524 long enough to have the solar kick in and start charging the system, keeping the inverter on long enough to get a gen set to engage recharging. What is the thought on using 9 v batteries to bring up the caps on the Magnum’s during initial startup? Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP PV Installation Professional Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Clearwater Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 9:01 AM To: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MM1524AE rebuild? oh and of course I put an inline fuse in the circuit. The current that flows of course will be dependent on battery voltage and resistor ohms. So with a 48 VDC pack you could go up in resistance - just figure per ohm - volt - amp formulas/calculator here. With less than 5 amps - you'll get a nice ramp up fill of your caps on most inverters we use in the industry. Hope that helps! Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Jeff Clearwater June 14, 2021 at 8:53 AM Hi Drake, So it's simply a momentary bypass circuit from the Load side to the Line side of your Main Inverter Breaker. So from battery side of inverter to momentary on-off switch to resistor to inverter side of breaker. I used a 25 Ohm 50 watt resistor. this one and this nice metal screw-terminal momentary on-off switch this one With a Magnum MS4024 PAE on a 10 KWH LiFePO4 pack - when I push the switch initially about 2 amps flows - I've found I need to hold it for about 8 seconds for the current to drop off to about .4 amps - then when I flip the 175 AMP main DC inverter breaker - there is little additional current that flows into the inverter caps - no sparks and my BMS doesn't shut down due to overcurrent fault. Hope that helps! Best, Jeff _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org June 11, 2021 at 12:27 PM Hello Jeff, That sounds really useful. How do you wire this? Where do you get the momentary switch? Thanks, Drake --- On 2021-06-09 12:13, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Hey Dave and Wrenches, This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS. A momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and battery BMS. I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW. Many LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on many systems. Best, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design palumbo131m at gmail.com June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Jeff Clearwater June 9, 2021 at 9:13 AM Hey Dave and Wrenches, This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS. A momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and battery BMS. I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW. Many LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on many systems. Best, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Jeff Clearwater June 9, 2021 at 9:12 AM Hey Dave and Wrenches, This is why now I always install a pre-charge circuit for Magnum's and other inverters - especially on a Lithium pack with a BMS. A momentary on-off switch and 50 watt 20 ohm resistor - $20 worth of parts = a lifetime of less stress on main breaker - inverter caps and battery BMS. I recommend it for any inverter over 2 KW. Many LiFePO4 BMS's will shut down when sensing that much inrush so it's a must on many systems. Best, Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design palumbo131m at gmail.com June 8, 2021 at 6:01 AM Is a Magnum MM1524AE inverter/charger repairable and if so by whom? It failed after being reconnected to a battery bank, the typical small spark at the battery terminal when being reconnected was accompanied by a popping sound in the Magnum. Killed the Magnum. Dave Palumbo Hyde Park, VT _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 23:16:56 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2021 23:16:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600 vDC Breakers Message-ID: Hi all, I have not used the XW 100Amp 600vDC Charge Controller before, but have an occasion to use it now. Any feedback on it? Also, what are folks using for Overcurrent Devices? The only 600vDC breakers I've found are the Modnite's and only 16 or 20 amps (looks like I need either a 30 or 40 Amp - preferably - breaker as it will be in a Conext PDP). Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Aug 10 08:35:06 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 08:35:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600 vDC Breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The 600 V is the input side of things so the old stand by Square D H361B is what we use for the input the CC’s output OCDs are 125Vdc > On Aug 9, 2021, at 11:16 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: > > Hi all, > I have not used the XW 100Amp 600vDC Charge Controller before, but have an occasion to use it now. Any feedback on it? Also, what are folks using for Overcurrent Devices? The only 600vDC breakers I've found are the Modnite's and only 16 or 20 amps (looks like I need either a 30 or 40 Amp - preferably - breaker as it will be in a Conext PDP). > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > > Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Aug 10 10:08:41 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2021 07:08:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 600 vDC Breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59c5fdc2d86d10da75c21b267bd01670@127.0.0.1> I use the 125 adc breaker from Schneider. It will fit in mini pdp or full size pdp. Just use the disco that Tump uses. 8kw of panels and good to go. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 08:35:06 -0400, Tump wrote: The 600 V is the input side of things so the old stand by Square D H361B is what we use for the input the CC's output OCDs are 125Vdc On Aug 9, 2021, at 11:16 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote: Hi all, I have not used the XW 100Amp 600vDC Charge Controller before, but have an occasion to use it now. Any feedback on it? Also, what are folks using for Overcurrent Devices? The only 600vDC breakers I've found are the Modnite's and only 16 or 20 amps (looks like I need either a 30 or 40 Amp - preferably - breaker as it will be in a Conext PDP). Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson SUN CATCHER NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) Solar Electric Systems Sales ">802-272-0004 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [4] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [5] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [6] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"> WWW.SWNL.NET [7] Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial;"> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com [4] http://re-wrenches.org [5] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] http://webmail.sti.net/blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 14:54:41 2021 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:54:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes Message-ID: Wrenchers, Some point back we transitioned from polaris lugs to buchanan crimps/caps (doping our wires in noalox) for our jbox splices. I know there have been a few conversations on here about this. Seems like a much more robust connection than anything we have used prior. But now we have an inspector who isn't in support of using them for outdoor/damp locations. To be fair (although it seems like a far superior connection) Ideal doesn't have documentation to support outdoor use. I know a lot of folks on here have had solid/long lasting results though. In any event, we may have to transition away from buchanan crimps and wondering what you all recommend as your second (or first) choice? Or if anyone has experience with supporting this application when dealing with inspectors? Do we go back to polaris lugs? I know there was a conversation a while back about failures with those... Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com Mon Aug 16 15:03:15 2021 From: David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com (Isaac Opalinsky) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 19:03:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXT] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adam, I assume it’s a NYSERDA inspector that’s pushing back, correct? We’ve dealt with this issue a number of times, and while I will argue until I’m blue in the face that the code does not consider the inside of a properly installed NEMA 3R enclosure a damp/wet location, NYSERDA has not accepted that argument. To be clear, the Buchanan splice caps and insulators are only rated for dry locations. I’ve heard that NYSERDA has allowed them to be used with dielectric gel applied to the interior of a splice cap insulator, but have not been able to confirm. Best Regards, Isaac Opalinsky | Director, Applications & Technical Support mobile 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com [sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of AE Solar Sent: Monday, August 16, 2021 2:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [EXT] [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes External Email - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. ________________________________ Wrenchers, Some point back we transitioned from polaris lugs to buchanan crimps/caps (doping our wires in noalox) for our jbox splices. I know there have been a few conversations on here about this. Seems like a much more robust connection than anything we have used prior. But now we have an inspector who isn't in support of using them for outdoor/damp locations. To be fair (although it seems like a far superior connection) Ideal doesn't have documentation to support outdoor use. I know a lot of folks on here have had solid/long lasting results though. In any event, we may have to transition away from buchanan crimps and wondering what you all recommend as your second (or first) choice? Or if anyone has experience with supporting this application when dealing with inspectors? Do we go back to polaris lugs? I know there was a conversation a while back about failures with those... Thanks for any thoughts. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 5843 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Aug 16 15:19:49 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 13:19:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <441122f4-c97c-44a0-14a6-d47e0de1a33d@solarray.com> We've used both, and I've been less than satisfied with the Buchanan crimp.  I rate it better than wire nuts, but not near as good as Polaris.  Polaris type connectors have a separate connector for each wire, so each wire's connection is independent, like a buss bar. The wires can easily be removed, reinstalled, retorqued, and its easier to check voltage without disturbing the connections. IF you look at an outdoor rated wire nut (or the Polaris), its filled with goo, and has an extra fitting to keep the goo in, and moisture out.  The Buchanan does not, so it really looks like an indoor rated connection only to me. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/16/21 12:54 PM, AE Solar wrote: > Wrenchers, > Some point back we transitioned from polaris lugs to buchanan > crimps/caps (doping our wires in noalox) for our jbox splices. I know > there have been a few conversations on here about this. Seems like a > much more robust connection than anything we have used prior. But now > we have an inspector who isn't in support of using them for > outdoor/damp locations. To be fair (although it seems like a far > superior connection) Ideal doesn't have documentation to support > outdoor use. I know a lot of folks on here have had solid/long lasting > results though. In any event, we may have to transition away from > buchanan crimps and wondering what you all recommend as your second > (or first) choice? Or if anyone has experience with supporting this > application when dealing with inspectors? Do we go back to polaris > lugs? I know there was a conversation a while back about failures with > those... > Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Aug 16 15:21:59 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 12:21:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] [EXT] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the inside of a 3R enclosure isn't considered dry enough for a buchanan crimp/cap, then there's millions of 3R panels with breakers and busbars in them that would have the same problem. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 12:03 PM Isaac Opalinsky < David.Opalinsky at sunpower.com> wrote: > Adam, > > > > I assume it’s a NYSERDA inspector that’s pushing back, correct? We’ve > dealt with this issue a number of times, and while I will argue until I’m > blue in the face that the code does not consider the inside of a properly > installed NEMA 3R enclosure a damp/wet location, NYSERDA has not accepted > that argument. > > > > To be clear, the Buchanan splice caps and insulators are only rated for > dry locations. > > > > I’ve heard that NYSERDA has allowed them to be used with dielectric gel > applied to the interior of a splice cap insulator, but have not been able > to confirm. > > > > Best Regards, > > *Isaac Opalinsky* | Director, Applications & Technical Support > > mobile 443-277-6286 | isaac.opalinsky at sunpower.com > > [image: sp_2014_logo_black_orange_CMYK-01] > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *AE Solar > *Sent:* Monday, August 16, 2021 2:55 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [EXT] [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes > > > > *External Email - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments. > ------------------------------ > > Wrenchers, > > Some point back we transitioned from polaris lugs to buchanan crimps/caps > (doping our wires in noalox) for our jbox splices. I know there have been a > few conversations on here about this. Seems like a much more robust > connection than anything we have used prior. But now we have an inspector > who isn't in support of using them for outdoor/damp locations. To be fair > (although it seems like a far superior connection) Ideal doesn't have > documentation to support outdoor use. I know a lot of folks on here have > had solid/long lasting results though. In any event, we may have to > transition away from buchanan crimps and wondering what you all recommend > as your second (or first) choice? Or if anyone has experience with > supporting this application when dealing with inspectors? Do we go back to > polaris lugs? I know there was a conversation a while back about failures > with those... > > Thanks for any thoughts. > > Adam > > > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > > (518) 567-1468 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 5843 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 18:05:34 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 16:05:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100 amp GFDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <763EC88B-A95A-4724-83D1-25A5304ABE57@gmail.com> HI All, I’ve got a system with an outback FM-80 that is running at full power 48v. Its connected to a outback 80 twin pole GFDI breaker. The breaker is tripping due to running at 80 amps. Is the midnite MNDC-GFP100RT-2P the only option? thanks jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericstev at vermontel.net Mon Aug 16 21:11:59 2021 From: ericstev at vermontel.net (ericstev at vermontel.net) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 21:11:59 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4464661357628b16d1fb458964723cf5@vermontel.net> Wrenches, I will add an opinion to this discussion. There is no cure for an unreasonable inspector. However, if you are connecting non-aluminum conductors, try using NO-OX-ID A-SPECIAL electrical grade grease. https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html This does an excellent job of excluding corrosive liquids and gases from the contact surfaces. I will continue to use Buchanan crimps and insulators where I dope the wires prior to crimping with the above grease. The crimp zone under the (4) indentors of the C-24 tool swage the wire strands into excellent contact and the grease keeps the joint sealed. If I expect the joint to be submersed, then a western-union wire-wrap splice for mechanical strength followed by soldering and encapsulation in adhesive-lined heat shrink tubing would be my choice. My two cents. Eric Stevens Vermont Made Energy > Today's Topics: > > 1. Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes (AE Solar) > 2. Re: [EXT] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes (Isaac Opalinsky) > 3. Re: Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes (Ray) > 4. Re: [EXT] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes (Brian Mehalic) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:54:41 -0400 > From: AE Solar > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buchanan Crimps in Outdoor Boxes > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Wrenchers, > Some point back we transitioned from polaris lugs to buchanan crimps/caps > (doping our wires in noalox) for our jbox splices. I know there have been a > few conversations on here about this. Seems like a much more robust > connection than anything we have used prior. But now we have an inspector > who isn't in support of using them for outdoor/damp locations. To be fair > (although it seems like a far superior connection) Ideal doesn't have > documentation to support outdoor use. I know a lot of folks on here have > had solid/long lasting results though. In any event, we may have to > transition away from buchanan crimps and wondering what you all recommend > as your second (or first) choice? Or if anyone has experience with > supporting this application when dealing with inspectors? Do we go back to > polaris lugs? I know there was a conversation a while back about failures > with those... > Thanks for any thoughts. > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com [1] > (518) 567-1468 > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ Links: ------ [1] http://www.autonomousenergies.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roland at renewablenergy.com Tue Aug 17 15:29:07 2021 From: roland at renewablenergy.com (Roland Shackelford) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 09:29:07 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100 amp GFDI In-Reply-To: <763EC88B-A95A-4724-83D1-25A5304ABE57@gmail.com> References: <763EC88B-A95A-4724-83D1-25A5304ABE57@gmail.com> Message-ID: You can lower the output power of the charge controllers from 80 to 70-75 amps. You'll get clipping during full sun, but typically still works ok. Mahalo, Roland Shackelford President / Owner Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. | www.renewablenergy.com | Mobile: 808-938-9239 | Office: 808-775-7410 | Fax: 808-775-7756 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #091209-162 *Privileged And Confidential Communication. This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are protected by the Electronic Privacy Act (18 USC ?? 2510-2521), (b) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited. On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 2:03 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I’ve got a system with an outback FM-80 that is running at full power 48v. > > Its connected to a outback 80 twin pole GFDI breaker. > > The breaker is tripping due to running at 80 amps. > > Is the midnite MNDC-GFP100RT-2P the only option? > > thanks > > jay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Aug 17 16:00:27 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 13:00:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 100 amp GFDI In-Reply-To: References: <763EC88B-A95A-4724-83D1-25A5304ABE57@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8549f8cd2517e3a8af76644c2126eb9c@mail.gmail.com> Jay: The GFDI breaker can be installed upstream of the charge controller. At that position in the circuit the amperage may be less than in the CC output circuit, assuming the MPPT voltage is higher than 48 VDC. An 80 amp GFDI (or smaller) may be adequate in that position. The output of the FM80 could be routed through a more commonly available panel-mount 100 amp breaker. William Miller On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 2:03 PM jay wrote: HI All, I’ve got a system with an outback FM-80 that is running at full power 48v. Its connected to a outback 80 twin pole GFDI breaker. The breaker is tripping due to running at 80 amps. Is the midnite *MNDC-GFP100RT-2P the only option?* thanks jay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Aug 18 11:20:47 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 11:20:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identifaction request Message-ID: <989CDA39-8873-4735-AA10-D7AD44152546@sunwindpowerinc.com> Strange request here. I’m trying to identify the type of racking shown in the attached picture. I have an application for an aluminum rail that is slotted on all 4 sides. Basically need to have a rail that allows a bolt head to slide on any of the 4 sides so that I can make a box/table structure. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1 copy.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 234510 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Wed Aug 18 11:36:12 2021 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:36:12 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identifaction request In-Reply-To: <989CDA39-8873-4735-AA10-D7AD44152546@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <989CDA39-8873-4735-AA10-D7AD44152546@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Something like the T-slot railing? https://www.mcmaster.com/t-slot-rails/ Michael Mahon Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy website Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English and Spanish [cid:image001.jpg at 01D79414.78E9BD40] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D79414.78E9BD40] [cid:image004.jpg at 01D79414.78E9BD40] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 9:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identifaction request Strange request here. I’m trying to identify the type of racking shown in the attached picture. I have an application for an aluminum rail that is slotted on all 4 sides. Basically need to have a rail that allows a bolt head to slide on any of the 4 sides so that I can make a box/table structure. [cid:image007.jpg at 01D79414.78F6B590] Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified [cid:image006.jpg at 01D79414.78E9BD40] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42205 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 12:12:39 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 10:12:39 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tile roofs Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Im looking for recommendations on the best way to mount solar on tile roofs. We don't have too many tile roofs in our area and admittedly we are afraid of them. I know some of you are probably doing this all of the time. What is your favorite way to approach a tile roof? Hooks or tile replacement or other? Any advantages to specific brands? Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Aug 18 12:34:59 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 09:34:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tile roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F929E82-678D-47AA-BE53-CBCFEC71D1B3@millersolar.com> Mac: Tile roofs rely on the underpayment or sub-roof for water-tight integrity. The tile is just UV and fire protection and aesthetic. In California , after a few years the sub-roof, which is usually roofing felt, becomes brittle and powdery. Any pitched roof needs down-slope overlapping, especially if caulk won’t stick on powdery surfaces. If you try to seal fasteners by sliding new paper under old it tears. Plus battens interfere. If you try to caulk it does not stick. I have verified this condition with many qualified roofers and solar contractors. We remove tile, battens and sub-roof from entire roof plane. We set round stanchions on a 3’x3’ square of high quality new paper. We provide an Oatey flashing to work in with the paper. The roofer works in new paper, battens and then top flashes the tile. Wide base galvanized top flashings are used for flat tile and aluminum malleable top flashings for barrel tile. Once the roof is rebuilt we set the rail and remaining equipment. This sounds like a lot of work but consider the cost of a leak. We have never had a tile roof leak and we won’t ever. I retired from all roof installs this year. We’ve got two jobs in the pipeline and that’s it. In 35 + years we’ve had one roof leak. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Aug 18, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > Hello Wrenches, > > Im looking for recommendations on the best way to mount solar on tile roofs. We don't have too many tile roofs in our area and admittedly we are afraid of them. I know some of you are probably doing this all of the time. What is your favorite way to approach a tile roof? Hooks or tile replacement or other? Any advantages to specific brands? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Aug 18 14:17:09 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:17:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tile roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Quickmount Tile Replacement Mount all the way. But we deal with high winds. I don't like how the hooks flex in high winds. They can break tiles. Contact me privately if you need some tips. Tile roofs are constructed differently in different places. For example, we don't have battens here. Just peel and stick underlayment on newer homes with one or two screws per tile. If you want to learn I could always use some good help, especially if it's free! Haha. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 12:13 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Im looking for recommendations on the best way to mount solar on tile > roofs. We don't have too many tile roofs in our area and admittedly we are > afraid of them. I know some of you are probably doing this all of the > time. What is your favorite way to approach a tile roof? Hooks or tile > replacement or other? Any advantages to specific brands? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 16:34:04 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:34:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tile roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <252836C1-8D3A-4D06-8A34-4D66FA7C782F@gmail.com> HI mac, One issue is if the roof is rated for added weight of the solar in addition to the tile. If its not, then one technique is to remove the tiles, install some other roofing material such as composition shingles and then install the solar over that. Often you can reinsert the tiles at the edges so it looks normal. Oh and if they are low fired clay tile, they can break just walking on them. Lots of good mounting brackets out there jay peltz power > On Aug 18, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Im looking for recommendations on the best way to mount solar on tile roofs. We don't have too many tile roofs in our area and admittedly we are afraid of them. I know some of you are probably doing this all of the time. What is your favorite way to approach a tile roof? Hooks or tile replacement or other? Any advantages to specific brands? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Aug 18 17:38:50 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:38:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tile roofs In-Reply-To: <252836C1-8D3A-4D06-8A34-4D66FA7C782F@gmail.com> References: <252836C1-8D3A-4D06-8A34-4D66FA7C782F@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi All - William makes some really good points - the underlayment can be a big problem on tile roofs. We have a (nearly) squeaky clean track record with roof leaks, but have had one nightmare of a problem on an old tile roof where the felt underlayment was failing and leaking essentially all over the place, especially around existing skylights. Just having our crews up on the roof walking on the tiles appeared to have disturbed the felt enough to trigger leaks. It is definitely safest to involve a roofer to take everything off and start fresh on a tile roof. Waterproofing with a roofer can be done by either adding comp shingle under the arrays (especially good choice for large rectangular arrays) or they can waterproof the tiles with a flashing system and standard cylindrical solar posts. Don't work on tile roofs over 10 years old without involving a roofer to at least check the condition. If the roof is relatively new, we have found that the tile replacement mounts are the best bet. Pegasus is another brand besides Iron Ridge (formerly Quickmount) that makes tile replacement mounts. Definitely don't get involved in natural clay tile or slate roofing without a roofer! I frequently talk with installers who work in parts of California with newer housing stock where concrete tiles are very common and they install some sort of J-hook product. I fear that they have lots of leaks in their future, only time will tell. August Luminalt On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 2:00 PM jay wrote: > HI mac, > > One issue is if the roof is rated for added weight of the solar in > addition to the tile. > > If its not, then one technique is to remove the tiles, install some other > roofing material such as composition shingles and then install the solar > over that. > Often you can reinsert the tiles at the edges so it looks normal. > > Oh and if they are low fired clay tile, they can break just walking on > them. > > Lots of good mounting brackets out there > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > On Aug 18, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Im looking for recommendations on the best way to mount solar on tile > roofs. We don't have too many tile roofs in our area and admittedly we are > afraid of them. I know some of you are probably doing this all of the > time. What is your favorite way to approach a tile roof? Hooks or tile > replacement or other? Any advantages to specific brands? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Aug 18 18:04:29 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:04:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tile roofs In-Reply-To: References: <252836C1-8D3A-4D06-8A34-4D66FA7C782F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bbeee24aa6567057f5cf1b1796ea585@127.0.0.1> Never had a ground mount leak! Fire season and the people who fight them are big fans of not using a roof! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 18 Aug 2021 14:38:50 -0700, August Goers wrote: Hi All - William makes some really good points - the underlayment can be a big problem on tile roofs. We have a (nearly) squeaky clean track record with roof leaks, but have had one nightmare of a problem on an old tile roof where the felt underlayment was failing and leaking essentially all over the place, especially around existing skylights. Just having our crews up on the roof walking on the tiles appeared to have disturbed the felt enough to trigger leaks. It is definitely safest to involve a roofer to take everything off and start fresh on a tile roof. Waterproofing with a roofer can be done by either adding comp shingle under the arrays (especially good choice for large rectangular arrays) or they can waterproof the tiles with a flashing system and standard cylindrical solar posts. Don't work on tile roofs over 10 years old without involving a roofer to at least check the condition. If the roof is relatively new, we have found that the tile replacement mounts are the best bet. Pegasus is another brand besides Iron Ridge (formerly Quickmount) that makes tile replacement mounts. Definitely don't get involved in natural clay tile or slate roofing without a roofer! I frequently talk with installers who work in parts of California with newer housing stock where concrete tiles are very common and they install some sort of J-hook product. I fear that they have lots of leaks in their future, only time will tell. August Luminalt On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 2:00 PM jay wrote: HI mac, One issue is if the roof is rated for added weight of the solar in addition to the tile. If its not, then one technique is to remove the tiles, install some other roofing material such as composition shingles and then install the solar over that. Often you can reinsert the tiles at the edges so it looks normal. Oh and if they are low fired clay tile, they can break just walking on them. Lots of good mounting brackets out there jay peltz power On Aug 18, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: Hello Wrenches, Im looking for recommendations on the best way to mount solar on tile roofs. We don't have too many tile roofs in our area and admittedly we are afraid of them. I know some of you are probably doing this all of the time. What is your favorite way to approach a tile roof? Hooks or tile replacement or other? Any advantages to specific brands? Thanks! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [5] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] There are two list archives for searching. 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 18:25:45 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:25:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tile roofs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches it does depend on your customer, if you never want to have to go out in the rain and fix cracked tiles under the array, Tile will fail under an array dry out and crack, freeze and crack, they all crack, I always quote to strip the roof, comp it and install your array, it will look better cut the weight and never leak, then if space allows put tile back down around the array, top and sides never on the bottom. Once done you will have an array that is lower in profile with better ventilation, looks much better, you now have spare tiles that the homeowner will need anyway. Now if you don't like your customers, sure go with tile and that also goes for shake and slate too. I have seen many tile failures over the years under the array and none is warrantable so leaky roof and the customer pays, that's great for PR.But hey that's just me, many years doing this and seeing failures that should not have ever happened. On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 9:12 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Im looking for recommendations on the best way to mount solar on tile > roofs. We don't have too many tile roofs in our area and admittedly we are > afraid of them. I know some of you are probably doing this all of the > time. What is your favorite way to approach a tile roof? Hooks or tile > replacement or other? Any advantages to specific brands? > > Thanks! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nickjkirk at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 22:22:44 2021 From: nickjkirk at gmail.com (Nick Kirk) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 20:22:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identifaction request (Nick Kirk) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jeremy, That looks very similar to 80/20 aluminum rail: https://8020.net/shop. On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 9:21 AM wrote: > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Racking identifaction request (Jeremy Coxon) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 11:20:47 -0400 > From: Jeremy Coxon > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identifaction request > Message-ID: <989CDA39-8873-4735-AA10-D7AD44152546 at sunwindpowerinc.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Strange request here. I?m trying to identify the type of racking shown in > the attached picture. I have an application for an aluminum rail that is > slotted on all 4 sides. Basically need to have a rail that allows a bolt > head to slide on any of the 4 sides so that I can make a box/table > structure. > > > > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210818/d098ff3b/attachment.html > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: PastedGraphic-1 copy.jpeg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 234510 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210818/d098ff3b/attachment.jpeg > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: img.jpeg > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 13108 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20210818/d098ff3b/attachment-0001.jpeg > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 14, Issue 254 > ******************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blake at sunlightandpower.com Thu Aug 19 00:50:10 2021 From: blake at sunlightandpower.com (Blake Gleason) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 21:50:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identifaction request In-Reply-To: <989CDA39-8873-4735-AA10-D7AD44152546@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <989CDA39-8873-4735-AA10-D7AD44152546@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Looks like good old 80/20. https://8020.net/ Blake On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 8:21 AM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > Strange request here. I’m trying to identify the type of racking shown in > the attached picture. I have an application for an aluminum rail that is > slotted on all 4 sides. Basically need to have a rail that allows a bolt > head to slide on any of the 4 sides so that I can make a box/table > structure. > > > > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence O: 510-845-2997 x128 C: 510-867-5878 1035 Folger Ave. Berkeley, CA 94710 www.sunlightandpower.com License #326203 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1 copy.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 234510 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: img.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 13:18:27 2021 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 07:18:27 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck Message-ID: Aloha Wrences, I am trying to help some folks out here power up their 400w refrigerator that is in their stationary food truck on the North Shore of Oahu. I have a couple systems in mind ,but I am having a difficult time trying to find someone to ship a kit out here. The suppliers on this island have not been able to help with a small system that my client needs. Does anyone have any experience shipping small off grid kits outside the 48 states , or have a contact/supplier that I can speak to? Mahalo in advance. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Thu Aug 19 13:31:19 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 17:31:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: James, You may want to talk to SunWize. Historically they have packaged and shipped small systems all over. Best Regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows From: James Rudolph Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 1:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck Aloha Wrences, I am trying to help some folks out here power up their 400w refrigerator that is in their stationary food truck on the North Shore of Oahu. I have a couple systems in mind ,but I am having a difficult time trying to find someone to ship a kit out here. The suppliers on this island have not been able to help with a small system that my client needs. Does anyone have any experience shipping small off grid kits outside the 48 states , or have a contact/supplier that I can speak to? Mahalo in advance. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1epSX66lZx4hdpGIh0mKHasN-i0LVxd85&revid=0B_lycoVrDLvaZE1weVZDQkxvM2x0NS9hamZ0SEJwSHUreC9VPQ] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Aug 19 13:41:47 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 11:41:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> Check out the line of 12/24 vdc -120 vac NOVACOOL RV refers Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of James Rudolph Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 11:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck Aloha Wrences, I am trying to help some folks out here power up their 400w refrigerator that is in their stationary food truck on the North Shore of Oahu. I have a couple systems in mind ,but I am having a difficult time trying to find someone to ship a kit out here. The suppliers on this island have not been able to help with a small system that my client needs. Does anyone have any experience shipping small off grid kits outside the 48 states , or have a contact/supplier that I can speak to? Mahalo in advance. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com Thu Aug 19 15:06:19 2021 From: thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com (Thomas Hall) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 19:06:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck In-Reply-To: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> References: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Aloha James. I agree with Dana. Check with Sunwize. We have had quite a few small systems shipped to Oahu for small off grid from SunWize. Thomas Hall Solar Specialty Group Www.solarspecialtygroup.com Thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com 808-854-9539 NABCEP PV Installation Professional On Aug 19, 2021, at 7:42 AM, Dana Orzel wrote:  Check out the line of 12/24 vdc -120 vac NOVACOOL RV refers Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of James Rudolph Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 11:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck Aloha Wrences, I am trying to help some folks out here power up their 400w refrigerator that is in their stationary food truck on the North Shore of Oahu. I have a couple systems in mind ,but I am having a difficult time trying to find someone to ship a kit out here. The suppliers on this island have not been able to help with a small system that my client needs. Does anyone have any experience shipping small off grid kits outside the 48 states , or have a contact/supplier that I can speak to? Mahalo in advance. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1epSX66lZx4hdpGIh0mKHasN-i0LVxd85&revid=0B_lycoVrDLvaZE1weVZDQkxvM2x0NS9hamZ0SEJwSHUreC9VPQ] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com Thu Aug 19 15:08:36 2021 From: thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com (Thomas Hall) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 19:08:36 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck In-Reply-To: References: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <9AE5E067-944C-4823-9958-1CB118C9F96D@solarspecialtygroup.com> My apologies… I meant to say I agree with ‘Lloyd’ about using SunWize. Thomas Hall Solar Specialty Group Www.solarspecialtygroup.com Thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com 808-854-9539 NABCEP PV Installation Professional Sent from my iPhone On Aug 19, 2021, at 9:06 AM, Thomas Hall wrote:  Aloha James. I agree with Dana. Check with Sunwize. We have had quite a few small systems shipped to Oahu for small off grid from SunWize. Thomas Hall Solar Specialty Group Www.solarspecialtygroup.com Thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com 808-854-9539 NABCEP PV Installation Professional On Aug 19, 2021, at 7:42 AM, Dana Orzel wrote:  Check out the line of 12/24 vdc -120 vac NOVACOOL RV refers Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of James Rudolph Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 11:18 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck Aloha Wrences, I am trying to help some folks out here power up their 400w refrigerator that is in their stationary food truck on the North Shore of Oahu. I have a couple systems in mind ,but I am having a difficult time trying to find someone to ship a kit out here. The suppliers on this island have not been able to help with a small system that my client needs. Does anyone have any experience shipping small off grid kits outside the 48 states , or have a contact/supplier that I can speak to? Mahalo in advance. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 [https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1epSX66lZx4hdpGIh0mKHasN-i0LVxd85&revid=0B_lycoVrDLvaZE1weVZDQkxvM2x0NS9hamZ0SEJwSHUreC9VPQ] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 15:27:26 2021 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:27:26 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck In-Reply-To: <9AE5E067-944C-4823-9958-1CB118C9F96D@solarspecialtygroup.com> References: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> <9AE5E067-944C-4823-9958-1CB118C9F96D@solarspecialtygroup.com> Message-ID: Thanks All! Good stuff. On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 9:08 AM Thomas Hall < thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com> wrote: > My apologies… I meant to say I agree with ‘Lloyd’ about using SunWize. > > Thomas Hall > Solar Specialty Group > Www.solarspecialtygroup.com > Thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com > 808-854-9539 > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 19, 2021, at 9:06 AM, Thomas Hall < > thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com> wrote: > >  Aloha James. > > I agree with Dana. > Check with Sunwize. We have had quite a few small systems shipped to Oahu > for small off grid from SunWize. > > > Thomas Hall > Solar Specialty Group > Www.solarspecialtygroup.com > Thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com > 808-854-9539 > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > > > On Aug 19, 2021, at 7:42 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > >  > > Check out the line of 12/24 vdc -120 vac NOVACOOL RV refers > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *James Rudolph > *Sent:* Thursday, August 19, 2021 11:18 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck > > > > Aloha Wrences, > > I am trying to help some folks out here power up their 400w refrigerator > that is in their stationary food truck on the North Shore of Oahu. > > I have a couple systems in mind ,but I am having a difficult time trying > to find someone to ship a kit out here. The suppliers on this island have > not been able to help with a small system that my client needs. > > Does anyone have any experience shipping small off grid kits outside the > 48 states , or have a contact/supplier that I can speak to? > > > > Mahalo in advance. > > > > > > James B. Rudolph > > Independent Energy C-36080 > > ES #10816 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 > > C. 808.313.9701 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 16:28:51 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 13:28:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Food Truck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you talked to inter island or R$R, never had an issue getting any off grid parts from 12 to 48 vdc. Jerry On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, 10:18 AM James Rudolph wrote: > Aloha Wrences, > I am trying to help some folks out here power up their 400w refrigerator > that is in their stationary food truck on the North Shore of Oahu. > I have a couple systems in mind ,but I am having a difficult time trying > to find someone to ship a kit out here. The suppliers on this island have > not been able to help with a small system that my client needs. > Does anyone have any experience shipping small off grid kits outside the > 48 states , or have a contact/supplier that I can speak to? > > Mahalo in advance. > > > James B. Rudolph > > Independent Energy C-36080 > > ES #10816 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 > > C. 808.313.9701 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 24 11:22:23 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 11:22:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo Rapid Shutdown equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <875b7007-2559-4b28-8ded-2ade7a91d458@entech-engineering.com> WRENCHES, We are meeting our customer demand for more multimode systems. All are grid interconnected. I wanted to use micro inverters to ac couple, but I have to look at the better economics of dc coupling.  I have never used a dc module level Rapid Shutdown device. In the past we have had ground mounted or used Outback's huge dc array disconnect. My question, and please feel free to contact off list, are Tigo's TS-4 and similar devices reliable.  I know that they were not considered as reliable as an Enphase inverter for example at one time.  Thank you for any previous experience you can relay. Chris --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atersol at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 15:06:57 2021 From: atersol at gmail.com (Antony Tersol) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 12:06:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Minimizing inductive coupling of lightning Message-ID: I'm pondering stringing options for an array using 144-cell modules mounted landscape and ways to minimize susceptibility to lightning. Strings are 15, 16 or 17 modules. Configuration is similar to a ballasted array, with rows of single modules, separated by about 18", but mounted on floats, in a small reservoir. Project is in coastal California area, so lightning is relatively rare. PV arrays can be susceptible to inductive coupling from nearby lightning pulses which can cause a current because of the rapid change in the electro-magnetic field flux through a wire loop created by an individual string. The current is proportional to the area of the surface surrounded by the loop. One can minimize the area, and thus the coupling by, for example, wiring a string in a single line, starting the positive at one end and returning the wire from the negative end along the panels. One could maximize the area, and the possible bad effects, by putting the modules around the perimeter of as large a square as possible, so obviously a bad thing to do. My questions: 1. In this project, we are wiring in string pairs: i.e. Array strings are paired with adjacent strings in the array field and combined using MC4 branch connectors for home run wiring. There are 12 strings per inverter which are combined into 6 home runs, matching the 6 MPPT inputs for each SMA Core1 inverter. There are no junction boxes. By wiring these pairs so that their circulations are opposite (i.e. one string goes plus to minus around it's wiring loop clockwise, and its pair goes plus to minus counter-clockwise, the induced voltages should cancel, since the changes in flux will be opposite, and the loops are connected at the branch connectors. Q: Am I correct, or would the bypass diodes interfere in some way? 2. In addition to the induction attributable to the string geometry, there is some induction due to the internal wiring of each module. Q: Does the half-cell configuration with its twin half-modules reduce induction? 3. Q: Does rotating half the modules (so half have + at top, and half at bottom in landscape), reduce the induction. We have other reasons to rotate approximately half the modules for wiring purposes. Thanks for your insights. Antony Tersol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Aug 24 17:17:28 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 17:17:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler 12RES at 120vac full power Message-ID: Hey All, I have a customer who just replaced their old standby Kohler 8.5 RMY (20 years old) with 12RES. The 8.5 was stator-lead wired for 120vac @ full power. for the sake of the inverters input. Remember those days?  I'm looking at the RES service manual, and there is no description of having this option(the old manual had a wiring diagram of stator and breaker config for 120v). The digital controller can be programmed for 120vac, but obviously the stator leads need to be reconnected from the factory setup of 120/240. This was a simple thing on the older models via terminal strip. Is this field rewiring still a OK thing to do from a warranty perspective? AND I have not looked inside at the access of the wiring on a terminal strip yet. Some genny person installed it without knowing the old genny's wiring at 120v. Thanks fellow old timers. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Aug 24 17:55:04 2021 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 21:55:04 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler 12RES at 120vac full power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D98090F-30F2-46D2-BCBE-069559D9E0CC@foxfire-energy.com> The last one I set up like that, Tech Support said with the RES and RESA, you don’t need to physically change wires, just reprogram the controller and wire to leg one.. but that was a few moons back.. good luck db Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2021, at 5:18 PM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote:  Hey All, I have a customer who just replaced their old standby Kohler 8.5 RMY (20 years old) with 12RES. The 8.5 was stator-lead wired for 120vac @ full power. for the sake of the inverters input. Remember those days? I'm looking at the RES service manual, and there is no description of having this option(the old manual had a wiring diagram of stator and breaker config for 120v). The digital controller can be programmed for 120vac, but obviously the stator leads need to be reconnected from the factory setup of 120/240. This was a simple thing on the older models via terminal strip. Is this field rewiring still a OK thing to do from a warranty perspective? AND I have not looked inside at the access of the wiring on a terminal strip yet. Some genny person installed it without knowing the old genny's wiring at 120v. Thanks fellow old timers. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Aug 24 19:49:03 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 19:49:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kohler 12RES at 120vac full power In-Reply-To: <2D98090F-30F2-46D2-BCBE-069559D9E0CC@foxfire-energy.com> References: <2D98090F-30F2-46D2-BCBE-069559D9E0CC@foxfire-energy.com> Message-ID: Now I remember you can jumper L1 & L2 together at the generators breaker(that parallels the stators), then just have a L1 / N/ G to the house. Should be good after programming the gennys controller to 120vac output. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 On 8/24/2021 5:55:23 PM, Foxfire Energy wrote: The last one I set up like that, Tech Support said with the RES and RESA, you don’t need to physically change wires, just reprogram the controller and wire to leg one.. but that was a few moons back.. good luck  db  Sent from my iPhone On Aug 24, 2021, at 5:18 PM, Kirk Herander, VSE wrote:  Hey All, I have a customer who just replaced their old standby Kohler 8.5 RMY (20 years old) with 12RES. The 8.5 was stator-lead wired for 120vac @ full power. for the sake of the inverters input. Remember those days?  I'm looking at the RES service manual, and there is no description of having this option(the old manual had a wiring diagram of stator and breaker config for 120v). The digital controller can be programmed for 120vac, but obviously the stator leads need to be reconnected from the factory setup of 120/240. This was a simple thing on the older models via terminal strip. Is this field rewiring still a OK thing to do from a warranty perspective? AND I have not looked inside at the access of the wiring on a terminal strip yet. Some genny person installed it without knowing the old genny's wiring at 120v. Thanks fellow old timers. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Aug 25 09:02:39 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 09:02:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo Rapid Shutdown equipment In-Reply-To: <875b7007-2559-4b28-8ded-2ade7a91d458@entech-engineering.com> References: <875b7007-2559-4b28-8ded-2ade7a91d458@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, I also am curious of others experiences. I've got one system with SMA and the TS4-R-F. No problems, but it's only 6 months old. I hear that SMA now recommends the ones made by JMS, but it looks like essentially the same thing. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Aug 24, 2021, 11:22 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > WRENCHES, > > We are meeting our customer demand for more multimode systems. All are > grid interconnected. I wanted to use micro inverters to ac couple, but I > have to look at the better economics of dc coupling. I have never used a > dc module level Rapid Shutdown device. In the past we have had ground > mounted or used Outback's huge dc array disconnect. > > My question, and please feel free to contact off list, are Tigo's TS-4 and > similar devices reliable. I know that they were not considered as reliable > as an Enphase inverter for example at one time. Thank you for any previous > experience you can relay. > > > Chris > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com Wed Aug 25 13:25:06 2021 From: thomashall at SolarSpecialtyGroup.com (Thomas Hall) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 17:25:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo Rapid Shutdown equipment In-Reply-To: References: <875b7007-2559-4b28-8ded-2ade7a91d458@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Aloha Chris. We have been working with Tigo on repairs of a 10 or 11 year old system consisting of 352 original Tigo MMES075V units on a commercial rooftop. Original installer went belly up. The 100 kW Satcon inverter needed repairs. (got it repaired !) The Tigo monitoring system was OFF-line for many years. We put in a new communication access point, and found 3 units off-line. Since that time Tigo warranted the damaged units with swappable Tigo's TS-4, helped with commissioning the new units, reprograming ALL existing units with new updates, and has been very communicative and helpful. In my opinion, still a solid product, and still working strong. Not going to work for your thought on AC coupling, but in my opinion, a good company to work with if you decide on DC. Thomas Hall Solar Specialty Group INC C-33998 dba Specialty Group Electric 808-854-9539 thomashall at solarspecialtygroup.com www.solarspecialtygroup.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ® 031310-92 Certified Thermographer From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Dave Tedeyan Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 3:03 AM To: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com , RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo Rapid Shutdown equipment Hi Chris, I also am curious of others experiences. I've got one system with SMA and the TS4-R-F. No problems, but it's only 6 months old. I hear that SMA now recommends the ones made by JMS, but it looks like essentially the same thing. Cheers, Dave On Tue, Aug 24, 2021, 11:22 AM Christopher Warfel > wrote: WRENCHES, We are meeting our customer demand for more multimode systems. All are grid interconnected. I wanted to use micro inverters to ac couple, but I have to look at the better economics of dc coupling. I have never used a dc module level Rapid Shutdown device. In the past we have had ground mounted or used Outback's huge dc array disconnect. My question, and please feel free to contact off list, are Tigo's TS-4 and similar devices reliable. I know that they were not considered as reliable as an Enphase inverter for example at one time. Thank you for any previous experience you can relay. Chris -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:part1.422A14A7.9E5754F4 at entech-engineering.com] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Wed Aug 25 21:43:30 2021 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 18:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aluminum Transferred to Surface of Message-ID: <1666802073.352383.1629942210650@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu Aug 26 11:39:58 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 11:39:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD unit Message-ID: <84D26383-3A9D-4A6B-B91E-F39480F0110C@sunwindpowerinc.com> Has anyone else had an APsmart RSD unit explode in the first few weeks of service? See attached pictures (hopefully you’ll be able to see them). This was a newly installed array with SMA 7.6. System started up fine, then the next morning would not operate unless inverter was power cycled. It would then start up and run fine until the next morning when the same thing would happen. We went over the array with fine tooth comb and verified 'turn on' signal at each unit using RSD Eye tool - no signs of anything wrong. Spent ~4 hrs on tech support with SMA who then sent replacement inverter. Upon install of new inverter same result. Then AP said we needed to install their 'outdoor unit' (external signal injector) which took weeks to arrive, further inflaming the customer. Upon installation of the outdoor unit the problem persisted. Then things got really weird - inverter would attempt to start up and went into “unstable operation mode” and then it finally threw an arc fault code (turned out to be a real one for a change). Went back up on roof and found charcoal on roof deck under a panel. Luckily this was on a brand new metal roof and not an asphalt shingle roof with leaves or squirrel nests under it! We spent a LOT of time on this problem, got both manufacturers on an email thread to help us diagnose and inform them etc, before finding the actual cause and received zero compensation from AP for our time, instead just lots of excuses and finger pointing. We also lost the potential of a LOT of referral business due to total loss of confidence in our industry by this architect client. I have waited a few weeks before sending this note to let my blood stop boiling. A piece of SAFETY equipment intended for fire fighter safety should NOT be an ignition source. I have contacted Bill Brooks with this info in hopes that he can inform the Code making panel and that someone will end this madness. Module level RSD via external components that are essentially undiagnosable black boxes that double the number of connections in an array results in the opposite outcome of the problem that they are intended to solve - IMO. We will be opposing any AHJ who requires us to use these devices going forward. I welcome your comments and am interested to know if anyone else has had any similar experiences? Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.png Type: image/png Size: 342748 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-2.png Type: image/png Size: 477800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Aug 26 12:02:50 2021 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 09:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Aluminum Transferred to Surface of In-Reply-To: <1666802073.352383.1629942210650@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <1666802073.352383.1629942210650@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1790711440.380137.1629993770964@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cadams at sunrocksolar.com Thu Aug 26 12:37:56 2021 From: cadams at sunrocksolar.com (Carl Adams) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 12:37:56 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD unit In-Reply-To: <84D26383-3A9D-4A6B-B91E-F39480F0110C@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <84D26383-3A9D-4A6B-B91E-F39480F0110C@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Jeremy, We have seen this with the APSmart devices. One melted and did not cause damage to the panel. The other destroyed the panel. With Kind Regards SunRock Solar Carl Adams On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 11:40 AM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > Has anyone else had an APsmart RSD unit explode in the first few weeks of > service? See attached pictures (hopefully you’ll be able to see them). > > This was a newly installed array with SMA 7.6. System started up fine, > then the next morning would not operate unless inverter was power cycled. > It would then start up and run fine until the next morning when the same > thing would happen. We went over the array with fine tooth comb and > verified 'turn on' signal at each unit using RSD Eye tool - no signs of > anything wrong. Spent ~4 hrs on tech support with SMA who then sent > replacement inverter. Upon install of new inverter same result. Then AP > said we needed to install their 'outdoor unit' (external signal injector) > which took weeks to arrive, further inflaming the customer. Upon > installation of the outdoor unit the problem persisted. Then things got > really weird - inverter would attempt to start up and went into “unstable > operation mode” and then it finally threw an arc fault code (turned out to > be a real one for a change). Went back up on roof and found charcoal on > roof deck under a panel. Luckily this was on a brand new metal roof and > not an asphalt shingle roof with leaves or squirrel nests under it! We > spent a LOT of time on this problem, got both manufacturers on an email > thread to help us diagnose and inform them etc, before finding the actual > cause and received zero compensation from AP for our time, instead just > lots of excuses and finger pointing. > > We also lost the potential of a LOT of referral business due to total loss > of confidence in our industry by this architect client. I have waited a > few weeks before sending this note to let my blood stop boiling. A piece > of SAFETY equipment intended for fire fighter safety should NOT be an > ignition source. I have contacted Bill Brooks with this info in hopes that > he can inform the Code making panel and that someone will end this > madness. Module level RSD via external components that are essentially > undiagnosable black boxes that double the number of connections in an array > results in the opposite outcome of the problem that they are intended to > solve - IMO. We will be opposing any AHJ who requires us to use these > devices going forward. I welcome your comments and am interested to know > if anyone else has had any similar experiences? > > > > > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.png Type: image/png Size: 342748 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-2.png Type: image/png Size: 477800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeff.irish at suncommon.com Thu Aug 26 13:36:54 2021 From: jeff.irish at suncommon.com (Jeff Irish) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:36:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD unit In-Reply-To: References: <84D26383-3A9D-4A6B-B91E-F39480F0110C@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: What modules were you using? Any chance their current or voltage exceeded the device rating? On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:38 PM Carl Adams wrote: > Jeremy, > We have seen this with the APSmart devices. One melted and did not cause > damage to the panel. The other destroyed the panel. > > With Kind Regards > SunRock Solar > Carl Adams > > > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 11:40 AM Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > >> Has anyone else had an APsmart RSD unit explode in the first few weeks of >> service? See attached pictures (hopefully you’ll be able to see them). >> >> This was a newly installed array with SMA 7.6. System started up fine, >> then the next morning would not operate unless inverter was power cycled. >> It would then start up and run fine until the next morning when the same >> thing would happen. We went over the array with fine tooth comb and >> verified 'turn on' signal at each unit using RSD Eye tool - no signs of >> anything wrong. Spent ~4 hrs on tech support with SMA who then sent >> replacement inverter. Upon install of new inverter same result. Then AP >> said we needed to install their 'outdoor unit' (external signal injector) >> which took weeks to arrive, further inflaming the customer. Upon >> installation of the outdoor unit the problem persisted. Then things got >> really weird - inverter would attempt to start up and went into “unstable >> operation mode” and then it finally threw an arc fault code (turned out to >> be a real one for a change). Went back up on roof and found charcoal on >> roof deck under a panel. Luckily this was on a brand new metal roof and >> not an asphalt shingle roof with leaves or squirrel nests under it! We >> spent a LOT of time on this problem, got both manufacturers on an email >> thread to help us diagnose and inform them etc, before finding the actual >> cause and received zero compensation from AP for our time, instead just >> lots of excuses and finger pointing. >> >> We also lost the potential of a LOT of referral business due to total >> loss of confidence in our industry by this architect client. I have waited >> a few weeks before sending this note to let my blood stop boiling. A piece >> of SAFETY equipment intended for fire fighter safety should NOT be an >> ignition source. I have contacted Bill Brooks with this info in hopes that >> he can inform the Code making panel and that someone will end this >> madness. Module level RSD via external components that are essentially >> undiagnosable black boxes that double the number of connections in an array >> results in the opposite outcome of the problem that they are intended to >> solve - IMO. We will be opposing any AHJ who requires us to use these >> devices going forward. I welcome your comments and am interested to know >> if anyone else has had any similar experiences? >> >> >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> MWBE Certified >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Jeff Irish* | PE, Vice President SunCommon.com | *Main: *845-876-3767 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-1.png Type: image/png Size: 342748 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PastedGraphic-2.png Type: image/png Size: 477800 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu Aug 26 13:45:45 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 13:45:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016C5C6B-C020-4C21-82A8-227667466F68@sunwindpowerinc.com> Panels were: Silfab 330 BL @STC Isc = 9.83A, VOC = 42.24 RSD-S-PLC Input volt range = 8-80V Max cont input current =15A So, panels are well within the operating range of the RSD’s. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Thu Aug 26 14:09:42 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 14:09:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit Message-ID: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> Carl, Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item. I really don’t think they GET IT. We’ve been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that run. I cannot imagine we’re alone here. I was told by AP that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn’t really solve the problem of extra connections though. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matt at sesre.com Thu Aug 26 14:31:51 2021 From: matt at sesre.com (Matt Partymiller) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 18:31:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <016C5C6B-C020-4C21-82A8-227667466F68@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <016C5C6B-C020-4C21-82A8-227667466F68@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: How many in series? Were you paralleling any strings off the roof? I have seen this with too many MLPEs. I share your concerns about the rapid adoption of these failure points. I would assume they would be engineered such that, even in a significant string overvoltage incident, they didn’t produce catastrophic failure. Matt Matt Partymiller General Manager Solar Energy Solutions, LLC Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis 859-312-7456 (Office) 877-312-7456 (General) matt at sesre.com Check out our amazing new website and social media updates: www.sesre.com [cid:image002.png at 01D79A87.1AAEE150][cid:image004.png at 01D79A87.1AAEE150][cid:image006.png at 01D79A87.1AAEE150] [cid:image008.png at 01D79A87.1AAEE150] [cid:image010.png at 01D79A87.1AAEE150] From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 1:46 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit Panels were: Silfab 330 BL @STC Isc = 9.83A, VOC = 42.24 RSD-S-PLC Input volt range = 8-80V Max cont input current =15A So, panels are well within the operating range of the RSD’s. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image010.png Type: image/png Size: 3114 bytes Desc: image010.png URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Aug 27 09:02:29 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:02:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the writing of the code but with what we are buying OR not buying. If the devices we are required to install to make things “more safe & reliable”, at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don’t sell it they won’t have a job or a market. > On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > Carl, > > Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? > > I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item. I really don’t think they GET IT. We’ve been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that run. > > I cannot imagine we’re alone here. I was told by AP that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn’t really solve the problem of extra connections though. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Thu Aug 26 22:26:03 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 22:26:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Long span commercial solar racking Message-ID: Hi All, I am looking for recommendations for a solar racking system that can be put on a flat commercial roof where the point loads can span 12-13" east/west. I am imagining a system built up almost like a ground mount. Does anyone have manufacturer suggestions? Thanks! -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Aug 27 10:10:13 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:10:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Long span commercial solar racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005401d79b4d$41f87cf0$c5e976d0$@solarwork.com> You might check with Tamarack Solar, shades of earlier Snap n Rack – 7072226240 support at tamaracksolar.com Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Long span commercial solar racking Hi All, I am looking for recommendations for a solar racking system that can be put on a flat commercial roof where the point loads can span 12-13" east/west. I am imagining a system built up almost like a ground mount. Does anyone have manufacturer suggestions? Thanks! -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jj at aprsworld.com Fri Aug 27 11:48:34 2021 From: jj at aprsworld.com (James Jarvis) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:48:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> Message-ID: So who has a good reliable off grid RSD? It all looks like failure prone garbage to me. Thank you, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 05:02 Tump wrote: > I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the > writing of the code but with what we are *buying* OR *not buying.* > If the devices we are required to install to make things “more safe & > reliable”, at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to > make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require > installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. > WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying > or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is > rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single > level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. > Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier & > folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech > support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get > the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don’t sell it they won’t > have a job or a market. > > On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > > Carl, > > Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? > > I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but > the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution > channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation > was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls > for such a low cost item. I really don’t think they GET IT. We’ve been in > business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that > run. > > I cannot imagine we’re alone here. I was told by AP that their failure > rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in > petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be > catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could > cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks > to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure > rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire > initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. > That still doesn’t really solve the problem of extra connections though. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *Tump3391 at gmail.com <3391 at gmail.com>* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarwindworks.com Fri Aug 27 13:55:07 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 10:55:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identifaction request In-Reply-To: <989CDA39-8873-4735-AA10-D7AD44152546@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <989CDA39-8873-4735-AA10-D7AD44152546@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: <004b01d79b6c$ac8109b0$05831d10$@solarwindworks.com> Hi Jeremy, Have you seen Zilla racking components? They have some good rails for 4 sided mounting @ zillarac.com Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works Cell 530-448-9692 www.solarwindworks.com chris at solarwindworks.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Coxon Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 8:21 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Racking identifaction request Strange request here. I’m trying to identify the type of racking shown in the attached picture. I have an application for an aluminum rail that is slotted on all 4 sides. Basically need to have a rail that allows a bolt head to slide on any of the 4 sides so that I can make a box/table structure. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 234510 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Fri Aug 27 14:17:28 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 18:17:28 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> Message-ID: James, You may want to take a look at this SunSpec RSD / Optimizer just making it to market. https://enteligent.com/solarup-rsd It has self diagnostics and thermal shutdown, comes in 1 or 2 module configurations. Best regards, Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows From: James Jarvis Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 11:48 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit So who has a good reliable off grid RSD? It all looks like failure prone garbage to me. Thank you, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 05:02 Tump > wrote: I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the writing of the code but with what we are buying OR not buying. If the devices we are required to install to make things “more safe & reliable”, at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don’t sell it they won’t have a job or a market. On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: Carl, Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item. I really don’t think they GET IT. We’ve been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that run. I cannot imagine we’re alone here. I was told by AP that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn’t really solve the problem of extra connections though. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Tump3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net Solarwinds Northernlights Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 Blair "TUMP" May ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lorenzo at cal-solar.com Fri Aug 27 14:33:35 2021 From: lorenzo at cal-solar.com (Lorenzo Ortiz) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 11:33:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Long span commercial solar racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check out Brooklyn Solar . They have a system that sounds sort of like what you're describing. On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 6:34 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I am looking for recommendations for a solar racking system that can be > put on a flat commercial roof where the point loads can span 12-13" > east/west. I am imagining a system built up almost like a ground mount. > Does anyone have manufacturer suggestions? > > Thanks! > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist Board Member & Worker Owner loren at cal-solar.com | www.cal-solar.coop Office: (530) 274-3671 Fax: (530) 477-7571 CSLB #779624 Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 [image: NABCEP] -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 20:55:05 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:55:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tigo Rapid Shutdown equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave et al., Please note that SMA no longer offers the TS4-R-F devices—according to our distributor, they ceased offering them toward the end of last year. SMA maintains a list of compatible rapid shutdown receivers here . You will see the JMS-F device listed, along with the APsmart device that Jeremy recently wrote about . The TS4-R-F device is also listed, but, again, I believe it is no longer being manufactured/distributed. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 9:02 AM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi Chris, > I also am curious of others experiences. I've got one system with SMA and > the TS4-R-F. No problems, but it's only 6 months old. I hear that SMA now > recommends the ones made by JMS, but it looks like essentially the same > thing. > Cheers, > Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Aug 28 10:06:55 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:06:55 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> Message-ID: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown. https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than safe than an arc fault protective device with a standard string configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD devices, it seems likely that this is true. Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote: > I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the writing of the code but with what we are _buying_ OR _not buying._ > If the devices we are required to install to make things "more safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. > WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. > Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a market. > >> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: >> >> Carl, >> >> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? >> >> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that run. >> >> I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn't really solve the problem of extra connections though. >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Sat Aug 28 11:09:14 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:09:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it’s just a forum to complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the NEC® via the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there are a few flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call to action to fix module level shutdown by…having module level shutdown in the junction box? Most of the complaints seem to come down to connector standardization (which obviously was not the issue with the APS meltdown that started this thread). Brian > On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown. > > https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd > > FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than safe than an arc fault protective device with a standard string configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD devices, it seems likely that this is true. > > Drake > > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > --- > > > >> On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote: >> >> I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the writing of the code but with what we are buying OR not buying. >> If the devices we are required to install to make things "more safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. >> WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. >> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a market. >>> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: >>> >>> Carl, >>> >>> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? >>> >>> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that run. >>> >>> I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn't really solve the problem of extra connections though. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sat Aug 28 11:46:48 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:46:48 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> Message-ID: <6a7c61f2bd2360351b669805351b40db@127.0.0.1> The Schneider RSD is decent. At least it is useable as a 600vdc disco. The few offgrid homes that were required to use this had the Tigo units on the array panels and wireless comm to the RSD. As soon as the inspector was done, those went to Ebay. I never use a roof but have used a barn for panels. AFCI, GFCI, and now RSD are just more things to fail when you need them the most, like during a wildfire or hurricane. I know you folks have to do what you need to do to stay in business. For me, electronics are IN a covered building. Always! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:48:34 -0800, James Jarvis wrote: So who has a good reliable off grid RSD? It all looks like failure prone garbage to me. Thank you, -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 05:02 Tump wrote: I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the writing of the code but with what we are _buying_ OR _not buying._ If the devices we are required to install to make things "more safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin-left:5px; width:100%"> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: Carl, Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that run. I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn't really solve the problem of extra connections though. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [5] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules "> TUMP WWW.SWNL.NET Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ _ SERVING MID COAST MAINE font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial;"> _ 207-832-7574 CL. 610-517-8401 _ _ __BLAIR "TUMP" MAY_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ __ NABCEP "CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER"_ ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** _ TRACE XANTREX "CERTIFIED" DEALER / INSTALLER"_ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [12] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:tump at swnl.net [4] mailto:jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com [5] http://re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] http://re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Aug 28 12:20:11 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:20:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <6a7c61f2bd2360351b669805351b40db@127.0.0.1> References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> <6a7c61f2bd2360351b669805351b40db@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: All of these new code required safety features have a detrimental effect on reliability.  That's not a huge deal with GT, but off grid, this can become a serious safety issue in itself, as the homeowner loses communications, water, heat, and frozen food. There are opponents of solar energy that are laughing at us now, for being scared of our own shadow, when we as an industry have had an overall excellent safety record that goes back 40 years. We need to take a serious look at which safety issues are real, and which are not.  Standardizing PV connections is very important. Module level RSD is not. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/28/21 9:46 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > The Schneider RSD is decent. At least it is useable as a 600vdc disco. > Wink The few offgrid homes that were required to use this had the Tigo > units on the array panels and wireless comm to the RSD. As soon as the > inspector was done, those went to Ebay. I never use a roof but have > used a barn for panels. > > AFCI, GFCI, and now RSD are just more things to fail when you need > them the most, like during a wildfire or hurricane. > > I know you folks have to do what you need to do to stay in business. > For me, electronics are *in* a covered building. > > Always! > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:48:34 -0800, James Jarvis wrote: > >> So who has a good reliable off grid RSD? It all looks like failure >> prone garbage to me. >> >> Thank you, >> >> -James Jefferson Jarvis >> APRS World, LLC >> +1-507-454-2727 >> >> (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) >> >> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 05:02 Tump > > wrote: >> >> I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not >> only the writing of the code but with what we are /buying/ OR >> /not buying./ >> If the devices we are required to install to make things "more >> safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, >> we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and >> those who require installation of questionably safe & reliable >> crap aware of these problems. >> WE can thru either going to the code development  meetings AND >> NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge >> amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in >> the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing this >> stuff on, short season & man lift required. >> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let  your >> supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable >> products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get >> in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt >> replacement.  IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a market. >>> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Carl, >>> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? >>> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be >>> helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and >>> their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response >>> to a request for compensation was that they would not be >>> profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low >>> cost item.  I really don't think they GET IT. We've been in >>> business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have >>> ended that run. >>> I cannot imagine we're alone here.  I was told by AP that their >>> failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability >>> engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a >>> 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 >>> out of every 1000 pills made could cause death?  We engineered >>> secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain >>> catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure >>> rates higher than acceptable values.  A simple solution to this >>> fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of >>> plastic casing.  That still doesn't really solve the problem of >>> extra connections though. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >>> *Tump3391 at gmail.com * *www.SWNL.net* >>> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >>> */     Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >>> /**/ 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >>> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >>> >>> */             ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**//**/NABCEP    "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >>> /**/ >>>               ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >>> /**/Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >> try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Sun Aug 29 08:28:40 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 08:28:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: Brian, I think you serve on a CMP.  (if not, anyone with knowledge on the process would be helpful.) What is the process for receiving and acknowledging input from non CMP members?  Every time I submitted comment, I received no response (as far as I can remember). Thank you, Chris On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it’s just a forum to > complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the NEC® via > the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there are a few > flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call to action to fix > module level shutdown by…having module level shutdown in the junction > box? Most of the complaints seem to come down to connector > standardization (which obviously was not the issue with the APS > meltdown that started this thread). > > Brian > >> On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >>  >> >> There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown. >> >> https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd >> >> >> FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than safe >> than an arc fault protective device with a standard string >> configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD devices, it seems >> likely that this is true. >> >> Drake >> >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> Athens Electric LLC >> >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> >> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote: >> >>> I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not >>> only the writing of the code but with what we are /buying/ OR /not >>> buying./ >>> If the devices we are required to install to make things "more safe >>> & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all >>> need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who >>> require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of >>> these problems. >>> WE can thru either going to the code development  meetings AND NOT >>> buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of >>> solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know >>> its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short >>> season & man lift required. >>> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let  your >>> supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable >>> products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get in >>> a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. >>>  IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a market. >>>> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Carl, >>>> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? >>>> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be >>>> helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their >>>> distribution channels are less than ideal.  Their response to a >>>> request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if >>>> they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item.  I really >>>> don't think they GET IT.  We've been in business for over 16yrs and >>>> this one failure could easily have ended that run. >>>> I cannot imagine we're alone here.  I was told by AP that their >>>> failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering >>>> background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate >>>> would be catastrophic.  Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 >>>> pills made could cause death?  We engineered secondary systems and >>>> multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for >>>> components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable >>>> values.  A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a >>>> metal enclosure instead of plastic casing.  That still doesn't >>>> really solve the problem of extra connections though. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Aug 29 09:18:37 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 09:18:37 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> <6a7c61f2bd2360351b669805351b40db@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: Fronius is also involved in the effort to remove the MLSD requirement. https://solarbuildermag.com/featured/safety-concerns-for-solar-pv-module-level-shutdown-solutions/ In order to remove MLSD, it would require financial backing to get someone on a committee, pay, house and feed them throughout the process. Maybe Fronius or other large inverter manufacturers could afford to do this. -Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-08-28 12:20, Ray wrote: > All of these new code required safety features have a detrimental effect on reliability. That's not a huge deal with GT, but off grid, this can become a serious safety issue in itself, as the homeowner loses communications, water, heat, and frozen food. > > There are opponents of solar energy that are laughing at us now, for being scared of our own shadow, when we as an industry have had an overall excellent safety record that goes back 40 years. We need to take a serious look at which safety issues are real, and which are not. Standardizing PV connections is very important. Module level RSD is not. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 8/28/21 9:46 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: > > The Schneider RSD is decent. At least it is useable as a 600vdc disco. The few offgrid homes that were required to use this had the Tigo units on the array panels and wireless comm to the RSD. As soon as the inspector was done, those went to Ebay. I never use a roof but have used a barn for panels. > > AFCI, GFCI, and now RSD are just more things to fail when you need them the most, like during a wildfire or hurricane. > > I know you folks have to do what you need to do to stay in business. For me, electronics are in a covered building. > > Always! > > Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060 > > On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:48:34 -0800, James Jarvis wrote: > So who has a good reliable off grid RSD? It all looks like failure prone garbage to me. > > Thank you, > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 05:02 Tump wrote: > I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the writing of the code but with what we are _buying_ OR _not buying._ > If the devices we are required to install to make things "more safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. > WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. > Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a market. > > On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > Carl, > > Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? > > I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that run. > > I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn't really solve the problem of extra connections though. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump [1]3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net [1] > > Solarwinds Northernlights _ _ > _ Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California_ > _ 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 _ > _ __Blair "TUMP" May_ > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > _ __ NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"_ > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > _ Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"_ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://webmail.redwoodalliance.org/./#NOP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-wink.gif Type: image/gif Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 09:25:10 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 07:25:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <8C9D967F-59A4-40CE-9452-7EAA989FC774@gmail.com> There is another agency here that needs to be looked at, and that is UL. UL is probably the agency that has done the testing design etc to make sure that this product won’t do what it just did. Its possible the testing design is quite good and the issue was due to poor manufacturing, or due to a faulty part or due to faulty testing at the factory before shipping. The argument that we will be getting rid of RSD is 2+ code cycles away at the soonest, were it to even happen which I highly doubt. So in the mean time, we need to make sure that whoever is in charge of the testing/safety certification gets their shit together. jay peltz power From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Sun Aug 29 20:28:49 2021 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 20:28:49 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <8C9D967F-59A4-40CE-9452-7EAA989FC774@gmail.com> References: <8C9D967F-59A4-40CE-9452-7EAA989FC774@gmail.com> Message-ID: It’s good to see everyone waking up to the dangers of RSD. This last code cycle has been a complete disaster for solar, between RSD and these obscene set back requirements for solar panels on the roof, it really looks like residential solar is under attack by hostile forces, driving up costs and making our installers less safe and the solar systems less reliable. Sky Sims EcologicalSystems.biz > On Aug 29, 2021, at 10:39 AM, jay wrote: > > There is another agency here that needs to be looked at, and that is UL. > > UL is probably the agency that has done the testing design etc to make sure that this product won’t do what it just did. > > Its possible the testing design is quite good and the issue was due to poor manufacturing, or due to a faulty part or due to faulty testing at the factory before shipping. > > The argument that we will be getting rid of RSD is 2+ code cycles away at the soonest, were it to even happen which I highly doubt. > > So in the mean time, we need to make sure that whoever is in charge of the testing/safety certification gets their shit together. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From lucchesesolar at me.com Sun Aug 29 21:20:27 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:20:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IMO's Fire Raptor In-Reply-To: <8C9D967F-59A4-40CE-9452-7EAA989FC774@gmail.com> References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> <8C9D967F-59A4-40CE-9452-7EAA989FC774@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BDADE74-7C6A-4684-9D13-17F60F100ED1@me.com> Have many of you had success with the Fire Raptor products approved for Outback? MLSD is a hassle for sure and I’m no fonder of it than the rest of you but meanwhile a few of my near term off grid installations will be needing a solution. I’ve been dragging my feet submitting a permit package for an upcoming off grid project and at the moment it still seems like the Fire Raptor is the best option from what I can tell. Brad Bassett from AEE had confirmed my suspicion of simplicity and sent me a diagram a bit ago with a 48 to 24vdc converter and relay in place of the traditional AC keep alive converter. Product reliability and future surprises aside, it seems like a fairly basic product to integrate. The client is seriously considering a large carport in place of the house for the PV structure so I’m hoping I can dodge yet another MLSD project but I doubt I’m going to get that lucky. From what I know about IMO’s history in industrial controls it seems like the best option to pair with Outback’s offerings to meet compliance these days. Thanks for the collective wisdom as always, Nick A Lucchese now back to the exploding RSD unit thread…... From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Sun Aug 29 21:31:19 2021 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 21:31:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] IMO's Fire Raptor In-Reply-To: <0BDADE74-7C6A-4684-9D13-17F60F100ED1@me.com> References: <0BDADE74-7C6A-4684-9D13-17F60F100ED1@me.com> Message-ID: We’ve put in a few hundred fire raptors so far and have no failures on any of their units yet. But we’ve only been using them for a year and what compensation do they offer 10years from now if the unit fails and doubles the customers out of pocket on the system installation? Sky Sims EcologicalSystems.biz > On Aug 29, 2021, at 9:20 PM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > > Have many of you had success with the Fire Raptor products approved for Outback? MLSD is a hassle for sure and I’m no fonder of it than the rest of you but meanwhile a few of my near term off grid installations will be needing a solution. I’ve been dragging my feet submitting a permit package for an upcoming off grid project and at the moment it still seems like the Fire Raptor is the best option from what I can tell. Brad Bassett from AEE had confirmed my suspicion of simplicity and sent me a diagram a bit ago with a 48 to 24vdc converter and relay in place of the traditional AC keep alive converter. Product reliability and future surprises aside, it seems like a fairly basic product to integrate. The client is seriously considering a large carport in place of the house for the PV structure so I’m hoping I can dodge yet another MLSD project but I doubt I’m going to get that lucky. From what I know about IMO’s history in industrial controls it seems like the best option to pair with Outback’s offerings to meet compliance these days. > > Thanks for the collective wisdom as always, Nick A Lucchese > > > now back to the exploding RSD unit thread…... > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Aug 30 10:16:30 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 10:16:30 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <7dd65c9f-c690-d735-949b-4f47531eb1d6@entech-engineering.com> Brian, can you respond to the email regarding CMP and this issue?  Provide some guidance?  Chris On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it’s just a forum to > complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the NEC® via > the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there are a few > flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call to action to fix > module level shutdown by…having module level shutdown in the junction > box? Most of the complaints seem to come down to connector > standardization (which obviously was not the issue with the APS > meltdown that started this thread). > > Brian > >> On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: >> >>  >> >> There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown. >> >> https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd >> >> >> FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than safe >> than an arc fault protective device with a standard string >> configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD devices, it seems >> likely that this is true. >> >> Drake >> >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> >> Athens Electric LLC >> >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> >> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> >> --- >> >> >> On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote: >> >>> I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not >>> only the writing of the code but with what we are /buying/ OR /not >>> buying./ >>> If the devices we are required to install to make things "more safe >>> & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all >>> need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who >>> require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of >>> these problems. >>> WE can thru either going to the code development  meetings AND NOT >>> buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of >>> solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know >>> its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short >>> season & man lift required. >>> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let  your >>> supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable >>> products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get in >>> a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. >>>  IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a market. >>>> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Carl, >>>> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? >>>> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be >>>> helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their >>>> distribution channels are less than ideal.  Their response to a >>>> request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if >>>> they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item.  I really >>>> don't think they GET IT.  We've been in business for over 16yrs and >>>> this one failure could easily have ended that run. >>>> I cannot imagine we're alone here.  I was told by AP that their >>>> failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering >>>> background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate >>>> would be catastrophic.  Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 >>>> pills made could cause death?  We engineered secondary systems and >>>> multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for >>>> components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable >>>> values.  A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a >>>> metal enclosure instead of plastic casing.  That still doesn't >>>> really solve the problem of extra connections though. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, >>>> try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Aug 30 10:21:20 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 07:21:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <8C9D967F-59A4-40CE-9452-7EAA989FC774@gmail.com> Message-ID: I tell my grid friends to buy a Genset. If they can afford a roof mounted solar power system and all of the RSD bloatware, they can easily afford a good genset. A recent project, the county would not approve the offgrid home unless it had power. I was too busy (it was too hot) to get involved so I had my client specify a genset for the home. Sailed right thru the building department. This fall when it is cool again, we shall do a proper ground mounted system. The RSD will be a 600vdc Square D disco. Very Retro! Many counties do not care about offgrid as long as all the fees and school taxes are paid 😉 If they do care later, it is easy to pay the fee to correct what they want with a ground mount. Feed them alot of paper also is helpful! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 29 Aug 2021 20:28:49 -0400, Sky Sims wrote: > It's good to see everyone waking up to the dangers of RSD. This last code > cycle has been a complete disaster for solar, between RSD and these obscene > set back requirements for solar panels on the roof, it really looks like > residential solar is under attack by hostile forces, driving up costs and > making our installers less safe and the solar systems less reliable. > > Sky Sims > EcologicalSystems.biz > >> On Aug 29, 2021, at 10:39 AM, jay wrote: >> >> There is another agency here that needs to be looked at, and that is >> UL. >> >> UL is probably the agency that has done the testing design etc to make >> sure that this product won't do what it just did. >> >> Its possible the testing design is quite good and the issue was due to >> poor manufacturing, or due to a faulty part or due to faulty testing at >> the factory before shipping. >> >> The argument that we will be getting rid of RSD is 2+ code cycles away >> at the soonest, were it to even happen which I highly doubt. >> >> So in the mean time, we need to make sure that whoever is in charge of >> the testing/safety certification gets their shit together. >> >> jay >> >> peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at solarenergy.org Mon Aug 30 14:40:51 2021 From: brian at solarenergy.org (Brian Mehalic) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 11:40:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: The process is very regimented. Here's a link with the details: https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works A few things to note: All submitted public inputs (PIs) are addressed by the relevant Code Making Panel (CMP); the NFPA has transitioned so that all this documentation is online (there used to be a PDF) - it can be viewed on the "Next Edition" tab of NFPA 70 here: https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition The first draft of 2023, based on all the PIs submitted, came out on 6/28/21; comments on that document were due about 12 days ago, and the second draft meeting is scheduled for late October. The product of that meeting, which will post in March 2022, will be, for the most part, the 2023 NEC. Sooo, it is going to be tough to "repeal" or get rid of RS based on the current state of things. There is the NITMAM process (ugh, so many acronyms), which you can read about here https://www.nfpa.org/techsession and which I'm not very familiar with. Please keep in mind that CMP-4 (which I am a voting-alternate on, and which has jurisdiction over 690, 705, 710, and a few other Articles) is composed of a wide range of folks, from the enforcement (AHJ) community, the IBEW, various manufacturing trade organizations, utility organizations, the fire fighting/first responder community, and solar-specific organizations. Folks have widely varying degrees of interest in – and experience with – PV, but they all bring technical expertise from across the electrical industry. You may be surprised to hear it, but requirements in regards to RS could have been a lot more stringent, a lot more quickly, without key representation from the panel members that are most dedicated to the solar industry. Furthermore this is a consensus process, and is often the case rarely does anyone get exactly what they want. Many of these same folks have been very active participants in the PV Industry Forum, sponsored by SEIA, and comprised of something like 60-80 industry stakeholders that work together to craft and submit consensus Public Inputs for the first draft. In this latest cycle we submitted dozens of PIs, and the vast majority of them were accepted and became part of the first draft. This process is key to jump-starting the new Code cycle - without a Public Input to address, the code-making panel cannot "touch" a section of the code. And of course there are plenty of PIs from individuals and other organizations that are addressed by the panel. Cheers, Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member (520) 204-6639 Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org SEI Professional Services http://www.seisolarpros.com On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:28 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Brian, I think you serve on a CMP. (if not, anyone with knowledge on the > process would be helpful.) What is the process for receiving and > acknowledging input from non CMP members? Every time I submitted comment, > I received no response (as far as I can remember). Thank you, Chris > On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > > Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it’s just a forum to complain as > I see no activity that could actually impact the NEC® via the clearly > defined and delineated process. Also there are a few flat-out false claims > on the site, along with a call to action to fix module level shutdown > by…having module level shutdown in the junction box? Most of the complaints > seem to come down to connector standardization (which obviously was not the > issue with the APS meltdown that started this thread). > > Brian > > On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > > There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown. > > > https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd > > FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than safe than an > arc fault protective device with a standard string configuration. Given the > many problems with MLSD devices, it seems likely that this is true. > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > --- > > > > On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote: > > I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the > writing of the code but with what we are *buying* OR *not buying.* > If the devices we are required to install to make things "more safe & > reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to > make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require > installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. > WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying > or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is > rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single > level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. > Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier & > folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech > support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get > the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don't sell it they won't > have a job or a market. > > On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > > Carl, > > Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? > > I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but > the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution > channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation > was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls > for such a low cost item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been in > business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that > run. > > I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP that their failure > rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in > petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be > catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could > cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks > to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure > rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire > initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. > That still doesn't really solve the problem of extra connections though. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 31 08:03:09 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 08:03:09 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> Message-ID: <55a10bb2-35ff-d438-18c2-41368b54c43f@entech-engineering.com> I would like to suggest that interested WRENCHES form their own "subcommittee" so that we can have an somewhat organized approach to this issue.  I do know Fronius has been working on this, and we should seek them out.  I will volunteer to help organize the subcommittee.  I have done similar work on other issues.  I think this will have to be done by email so I will set up a process if there is interest.  Chris On 8/30/2021 2:40 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > The process is very regimented. Here's a link with the details: > https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works > > > > A few things to note: > > All submitted public inputs (PIs) are addressed by the relevant Code > Making Panel (CMP); the NFPA has transitioned so that all this > documentation is online (there used to be a PDF) - it can be viewed on > the "Next Edition" tab of NFPA 70 here: > https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition > > > The first draft of 2023, based on all the PIs submitted, came out on > 6/28/21; comments on that document were due about 12 days ago, and the > second draft meeting is scheduled for late October. The product of > that meeting, which will post in March 2022, will be, for the most > part, the 2023 NEC. > > Sooo, it is going to be tough to "repeal" or get rid of RS based on > the current state of things. There is the NITMAM process (ugh, so many > acronyms), which you can read about here > https://www.nfpa.org/techsession >  and which I'm not very familiar with. > > Please keep in mind that CMP-4 (which I am a voting-alternate on, and > which has jurisdiction over 690, 705, 710, and a few other Articles) > is composed of a wide range of folks, from the enforcement (AHJ) > community, the IBEW, various manufacturing trade organizations, > utility organizations, the fire fighting/first responder community, > and solar-specific organizations. Folks have widely varying degrees of > interest in – and experience with – PV, but they all bring technical > expertise from across the electrical industry. You may be surprised to > hear it, but requirements in regards to RS could have been a lot more > stringent, a lot more quickly, without key representation from the > panel members that are most dedicated to the solar industry. > Furthermore this is a consensus process, and is often the case rarely > does anyone get exactly what they want. > > Many of these same folks have been very active participants in the PV > Industry Forum, sponsored by SEIA, and comprised of something like > 60-80 industry stakeholders that work together to craft and submit > consensus Public Inputs for the first draft. In this latest cycle we > submitted dozens of PIs, and the vast majority of them were accepted > and became part of the first draft. This process is key to > jump-starting the new Code cycle - without a Public Input to address, > the code-making panel cannot "touch" a section of the code. And of > course there are plenty of PIs from individuals and other > organizations that are addressed by the panel. > > Cheers, > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 > National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com > > > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:28 AM Christopher Warfel > > wrote: > > Brian, I think you serve on a CMP.  (if not, anyone with knowledge > on the process would be helpful.) What is the process for > receiving and acknowledging input from non CMP members?  Every > time I submitted comment, I received no response (as far as I can > remember). Thank you, Chris > > On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >> Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it’s just a forum to >> complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the NEC® >> via the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there are a >> few flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call to >> action to fix module level shutdown by…having module level >> shutdown in the junction box? Most of the complaints seem to come >> down to connector standardization (which obviously was not the >> issue with the APS meltdown that started this thread). >> >> Brian >> >>> On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM, >>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>> wrote: >>> >>>  >>> >>> There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown. >>> >>> https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd >>> >>> >>> FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than >>> safe than an arc fault protective device with a standard string >>> configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD devices, it >>> seems likely that this is true. >>> >>> Drake >>> >>> >>> Drake Chamberlin >>> >>> Athens Electric LLC >>> >>> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >>> >>> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >>> >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> >>> >>> --- >>> >>> >>> On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote: >>> >>>> I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence >>>> not only the writing of the code but with what we are /buying/ >>>> OR /not buying./ >>>> If the devices we are required to install to make things "more >>>> safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, >>>> we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap >>>> and those who require installation of questionably safe & >>>> reliable crap aware of these problems. >>>> WE can thru either going to the code development  meetings AND >>>> NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge >>>> amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers >>>> in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing >>>> this stuff on, short season & man lift required. >>>> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let  your >>>> supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable >>>> products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can >>>> get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt >>>> replacement.  IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a >>>> market. >>>>> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Carl, >>>>> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? >>>>> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be >>>>> helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and >>>>> their distribution channels are less than ideal.  Their >>>>> response to a request for compensation was that they would not >>>>> be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a >>>>> low cost item.  I really don't think they GET IT. We've been >>>>> in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily >>>>> have ended that run. >>>>> I cannot imagine we're alone here.  I was told by AP that >>>>> their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability >>>>> engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a >>>>> 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic.  Can you imagine that >>>>> 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death?  We >>>>> engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to >>>>> contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know >>>>> failure rates higher than acceptable values.  A simple >>>>> solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal >>>>> enclosure instead of plastic casing.  That still doesn't >>>>> really solve the problem of extra connections though. >>>>> >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>>> work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- >                         Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Tue Aug 31 09:27:27 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander, VSE) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 09:27:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] hybrid inverter recommendation? Message-ID: Hi Folks, Looking for a 24vdc inverter with both grid and generator inputs @ 120/240 vac for hybrid grid-tie and backup.This is for an old customer, going on grid, and for existing DC load purposes trying to avoid reconfig of batteries to 48v. Thanks. Kirk Herander / kirkh at vermont.solar [mailto:kirkh at vermont.solar] Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!! www.vermont.solar [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0] dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Tue Aug 31 10:08:28 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 10:08:28 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: <55a10bb2-35ff-d438-18c2-41368b54c43f@entech-engineering.com> References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> <55a10bb2-35ff-d438-18c2-41368b54c43f@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: That is a great offer. For the sake of our industry I hope it succeeds. What is the next step? Please keep us in the loop. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- > I would like to suggest that interested WRENCHES form their own "subcommittee" so that we can have an somewhat organized approach to this issue. I do know Fronius has been working on this, and we should seek them out. I will volunteer to help organize the subcommittee. I have done similar work on other issues. I think this will have to be done by email so I will set up a process if there is interest. Chris > > On 8/30/2021 2:40 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: > The process is very regimented. Here's a link with the details: https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works > > A few things to note: > > All submitted public inputs (PIs) are addressed by the relevant Code Making Panel (CMP); the NFPA has transitioned so that all this documentation is online (there used to be a PDF) - it can be viewed on the "Next Edition" tab of NFPA 70 here: https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition > > The first draft of 2023, based on all the PIs submitted, came out on 6/28/21; comments on that document were due about 12 days ago, and the second draft meeting is scheduled for late October. The product of that meeting, which will post in March 2022, will be, for the most part, the 2023 NEC. > > Sooo, it is going to be tough to "repeal" or get rid of RS based on the current state of things. There is the NITMAM process (ugh, so many acronyms), which you can read about here https://www.nfpa.org/techsession and which I'm not very familiar with. > > Please keep in mind that CMP-4 (which I am a voting-alternate on, and which has jurisdiction over 690, 705, 710, and a few other Articles) is composed of a wide range of folks, from the enforcement (AHJ) community, the IBEW, various manufacturing trade organizations, utility organizations, the fire fighting/first responder community, and solar-specific organizations. Folks have widely varying degrees of interest in - and experience with - PV, but they all bring technical expertise from across the electrical industry. You may be surprised to hear it, but requirements in regards to RS could have been a lot more stringent, a lot more quickly, without key representation from the panel members that are most dedicated to the solar industry. Furthermore this is a consensus process, and is often the case rarely does anyone get exactly what they want. > > Many of these same folks have been very active participants in the PV Industry Forum, sponsored by SEIA, and comprised of something like 60-80 industry stakeholders that work together to craft and submit consensus Public Inputs for the first draft. In this latest cycle we submitted dozens of PIs, and the vast majority of them were accepted and became part of the first draft. This process is key to jump-starting the new Code cycle - without a Public Input to address, the code-making panel cannot "touch" a section of the code. And of course there are plenty of PIs from individuals and other organizations that are addressed by the panel. > > Cheers, > > Brian Mehalic > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 > National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member > (520) 204-6639 > > Solar Energy International > http://www.solarenergy.org > > SEI Professional Services > http://www.seisolarpros.com [1] > > On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:28 AM Christopher Warfel wrote: > > Brian, I think you serve on a CMP. (if not, anyone with knowledge on the process would be helpful.) What is the process for receiving and acknowledging input from non CMP members? Every time I submitted comment, I received no response (as far as I can remember). Thank you, Chris > > On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it's just a forum to complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the NEC(R) via the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there are a few flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call to action to fix module level shutdown by...having module level shutdown in the junction box? Most of the complaints seem to come down to connector standardization (which obviously was not the issue with the APS meltdown that started this thread). > > Brian > > On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown. > > https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd > > FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than safe than an arc fault protective device with a standard string configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD devices, it seems likely that this is true. > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician's License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > --- > > On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote: > > I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the writing of the code but with what we are _buying_ OR _not buying._ > If the devices we are required to install to make things "more safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. > WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. > Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don't sell it they won't have a job or a market. > > On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon wrote: > > Carl, > > Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? > > I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost item. I really don't think they GET IT. We've been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that run. > > I cannot imagine we're alone here. I was told by AP that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. That still doesn't really solve the problem of extra connections though. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [2] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] http://www.seisolarpros.com [2] http://entech-engineering.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Aug 31 11:53:10 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 11:53:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <62d206d446ee8b8899ccac5c993af3c3@redwoodalliance.org> <8E714275-43D1-4E78-9FF2-F4D045702096@solarenergy.org> <55a10bb2-35ff-d438-18c2-41368b54c43f@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: People need to contact me off list, and I will set up a process. I am going to follow Brian's information as it is a great road map for this to be effective.  I would like to budget one week from today for interested parties to contact me so we can get this going.  Chris On 8/31/2021 10:08 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > That is a great offer. For the sake of our industry I hope it > succeeds. What is the next step? Please keep us in the loop. > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > > --- >> >> I would like to suggest that interested WRENCHES form their own >> "subcommittee" so that we can have an somewhat organized approach to >> this issue.  I do know Fronius has been working on this, and we >> should seek them out.  I will volunteer to help organize the >> subcommittee.  I have done similar work on other issues.  I think >> this will have to be done by email so I will set up a process if >> there is interest.  Chris >> >> On 8/30/2021 2:40 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >>> The process is very regimented. Here's a link with the details: >>> https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/Standards-Development/How-the-process-works >>> >>> >>> A few things to note: >>> All submitted public inputs (PIs) are addressed by the relevant Code >>> Making Panel (CMP); the NFPA has transitioned so that all this >>> documentation is online (there used to be a PDF) - it can be viewed >>> on the "Next Edition" tab of NFPA 70 here: >>> https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition >>> >>> The first draft of 2023, based on all the PIs submitted, came out on >>> 6/28/21; comments on that document were due about 12 days ago, and >>> the second draft meeting is scheduled for late October. The product >>> of that meeting, which will post in March 2022, will be, for the >>> most part, the 2023 NEC. >>> Sooo, it is going to be tough to "repeal" or get rid of RS based on >>> the current state of things. There is the NITMAM process (ugh, so >>> many acronyms), which you can read about here >>> https://www.nfpa.org/techsession >>>  and which I'm not very familiar with. >>> Please keep in mind that CMP-4 (which I am a voting-alternate on, >>> and which has jurisdiction over 690, 705, 710, and a few other >>> Articles) is composed of a wide range of folks, from the enforcement >>> (AHJ) community, the IBEW, various manufacturing trade >>> organizations, utility organizations, the fire fighting/first >>> responder community, and solar-specific organizations. Folks have >>> widely varying degrees of interest in – and experience with – PV, >>> but they all bring technical expertise from across the electrical >>> industry. You may be surprised to hear it, but requirements in >>> regards to RS could have been a lot more stringent, a lot more >>> quickly, without key representation from the panel members that are >>> most dedicated to the solar industry. Furthermore this is a >>> consensus process, and is often the case rarely does anyone get >>> exactly what they want. >>> Many of these same folks have been very active participants in the >>> PV Industry Forum, sponsored by SEIA, and comprised of something >>> like 60-80 industry stakeholders that work together to craft and >>> submit consensus Public Inputs for the first draft. In this latest >>> cycle we submitted dozens of PIs, and the vast majority of them were >>> accepted and became part of the first draft. This process is key to >>> jump-starting the new Code cycle - without a Public Input to >>> address, the code-making panel cannot "touch" a section of the code. >>> And of course there are plenty of PIs from individuals and other >>> organizations that are addressed by the panel. >>> Cheers, >>> Brian Mehalic >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 >>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member >>> (520) 204-6639 >>> Solar Energy International >>> http://www.solarenergy.org >>> SEI Professional Services >>> http://www.seisolarpros.com >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 5:28 AM Christopher Warfel >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Brian, I think you serve on a CMP.  (if not, anyone with >>> knowledge on the process would be helpful.) What is the process >>> for receiving and acknowledging input from non CMP members?  >>> Every time I submitted comment, I received no response (as far >>> as I can remember). Thank you, Chris >>> >>> On 8/28/2021 11:09 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote: >>>> Movement? Maybe, but as far as I can tell it's just a forum to >>>> complain as I see no activity that could actually impact the >>>> NEC® via the clearly defined and delineated process. Also there >>>> are a few flat-out false claims on the site, along with a call >>>> to action to fix module level shutdown by...having module level >>>> shutdown in the junction box? Most of the complaints seem to >>>> come down to connector standardization (which obviously was not >>>> the issue with the APS meltdown that started this thread). >>>> Brian >>>> >>>>> On Aug 28, 2021, at 7:07 AM, >>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There is a movement to do away with module level shutdown. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.fixmlsd.com/?utm_campaign=solarbuilder_comment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=fixmlsd >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> FixMLSD has convincing arguments that MLSD is less safe than >>>>> safe than an arc fault protective device with a standard >>>>> string configuration. Given the many problems with MLSD >>>>> devices, it seems likely that this is true. >>>>> >>>>> Drake >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Drake Chamberlin >>>>> >>>>> Athens Electric LLC >>>>> >>>>> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >>>>> >>>>> CO Master Electrician's License 4526 >>>>> >>>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2021-08-27 09:02, Tump wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I would once again say that; we as an industry can >>>>> influence not only the writing of the code but with what >>>>> we are /buying/ OR /not buying./ >>>>> If the devices we are required to install to make things >>>>> "more safe & reliable", at the cost of our livelihoods & >>>>> reputations, we all need to make the folks that are >>>>> building the RSD crap and those who require installation >>>>> of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. >>>>> WE can thru either going to the code development  meetings >>>>> AND NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when >>>>> a huge amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the >>>>> installers in the NE know its not a single level ranch >>>>> were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift >>>>> required. >>>>> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let >>>>>  your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has >>>>> good reliable products AND tech support that we can >>>>> understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get >>>>> the satisfaction of a prompt replacement.  IF we don't >>>>> sell it they won't have a job or a market. >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Carl, >>>>> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that >>>>> failure? >>>>> I will say that their tech support guy did at least >>>>> try to be helpful, but the language barrier was really >>>>> really steep and their distribution channels are less >>>>> than ideal.  Their response to a request for >>>>> compensation was that they would not be profitable if >>>>> they had to pay for truck rolls for such a low cost >>>>> item.  I really don't think they GET IT.  We've been >>>>> in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could >>>>> easily have ended that run. >>>>> I cannot imagine we're alone here.  I was told by AP >>>>> that their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a >>>>> reliability engineering background in petro chemical/ >>>>> big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be >>>>> catastrophic.  Can you imagine that 2 out of every >>>>> 1000 pills made could cause death?  We engineered >>>>> secondary systems and multiple quality checks to >>>>> contain catastrophic consequences for components that >>>>> had know failure rates higher than acceptable values.  >>>>> A simple solution to this fire initiation issue would >>>>> be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing.  That >>>>> still doesn't really solve the problem of extra >>>>> connections though. >>>>> >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one >>>>> doesn't work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>>>> work, try the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> -- >>>                     Christopher Warfel >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>>     401-466-8978 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >>> work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> -- >>                                 Christopher Warfel >>                  ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>             401-466-8978 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 17:15:51 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 14:15:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> Message-ID: With outback fire raptor has been successful, it has a power supply and if you shut the inverter or use the button either will shut off the RSD. This is all it is no optimizer, no data, no bypass for shade just RSD. Jerry On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:48 AM James Jarvis wrote: > So who has a good reliable off grid RSD? It all looks like failure prone > garbage to me. > > Thank you, > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 05:02 Tump wrote: > >> I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence not only the >> writing of the code but with what we are *buying* OR *not buying.* >> If the devices we are required to install to make things “more safe & >> reliable”, at the cost of our livelihoods & reputations, we all need to >> make the folks that are building the RSD crap and those who require >> installation of questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. >> WE can thru either going to the code development meetings AND NOT buying >> or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge amount of solar is >> rooftop installs. As many of the installers in the NE know its not a single >> level ranch were installing this stuff on, short season & man lift required. >> Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let your supplier >> & folks on the list what manufacture has good reliable products AND tech >> support that we can understand, who we can get in a timely fashion, and get >> the satisfaction of a prompt replacement. IF we don’t sell it they won’t >> have a job or a market. >> >> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon >> wrote: >> >> Carl, >> >> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? >> >> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be helpful, >> but the language barrier was really really steep and their distribution >> channels are less than ideal. Their response to a request for compensation >> was that they would not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls >> for such a low cost item. I really don’t think they GET IT. We’ve been in >> business for over 16yrs and this one failure could easily have ended that >> run. >> >> I cannot imagine we’re alone here. I was told by AP that their failure >> rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability engineering background in >> petro chemical/ big pharma where a 0.2% failure rate would be >> catastrophic. Can you imagine that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could >> cause death? We engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks >> to contain catastrophic consequences for components that had know failure >> rates higher than acceptable values. A simple solution to this fire >> initiation issue would be a metal enclosure instead of plastic casing. >> That still doesn’t really solve the problem of extra connections though. >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> *Tump3391 at gmail.com <3391 at gmail.com>* *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights >> * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* >> * 207-832-7574 Cl. >> 610-517-8401 * >> *Blair "TUMP" May* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * >> NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* >> >> >> * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** >> Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Sep 1 08:01:15 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 08:01:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: <74DE5573-4476-4A60-8477-DF5B2304D10A@sunwindpowerinc.com> <9FE7A78E-881C-4B2E-9B2A-CE86BE9A0655@swnl.net> Message-ID: <9eb1564e-6402-ac64-bdc8-369c3951f7bf@entech-engineering.com> Is this the same concept as Tigo?  (and others) On 8/31/2021 5:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > With outback fire raptor has been successful, it has a power supply > and if you shut the inverter or use the button either will shut off > the RSD. This is all it is no optimizer, no data, no bypass for shade > just RSD. > Jerry > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:48 AM James Jarvis > wrote: > > So who has a good reliable off grid RSD? It all looks like failure > prone garbage to me. > > Thank you, > > -James Jefferson Jarvis > APRS World, LLC > +1-507-454-2727 > > (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.) > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 05:02 Tump > wrote: > > I would once again say that; we as an industry can influence > not only the writing of the code but with what we are /buying/ > OR /not buying./ > If the devices we are required to install to make things “more > safe & reliable”, at the cost of our livelihoods & > reputations, we all need to make the folks that are building > the RSD crap and those who require installation of > questionably safe & reliable crap aware of these problems. > WE can thru either going to the code development  meetings AND > NOT buying or installing this stuff. Not too easy when a huge > amount of solar is rooftop installs. As many of the installers > in the NE know its not a single level ranch were installing > this stuff on, short season & man lift required. > Tell your supplier why you are not buying that brand, let >  your supplier & folks on the list what manufacture has good > reliable products AND tech support that we can understand, who > we can get in a timely fashion, and get the satisfaction of a > prompt replacement.  IF we don’t sell it they won’t have a job > or a market. >> On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Jeremy Coxon >> > > wrote: >> >> Carl, >> >> Did you get any kind of joy out of APSmart on that failure? >> >> I will say that their tech support guy did at least try to be >> helpful, but the language barrier was really really steep and >> their distribution channels are less than ideal.  Their >> response to a request for compensation was that they would >> not be profitable if they had to pay for truck rolls for such >> a low cost item.  I really don’t think they GET IT.  We’ve >> been in business for over 16yrs and this one failure could >> easily have ended that run. >> >> I cannot imagine we’re alone here.  I was told by AP that >> their failure rate was 0.2%. Now, I come from a reliability >> engineering background in petro chemical/ big pharma where a >> 0.2% failure rate would be catastrophic.  Can you imagine >> that 2 out of every 1000 pills made could cause death?  We >> engineered secondary systems and multiple quality checks to >> contain catastrophic consequences for components that had >> know failure rates higher than acceptable values.  A simple >> solution to this fire initiation issue would be a metal >> enclosure instead of plastic casing.  That still doesn’t >> really solve the problem of extra connections though. >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > >> *Tump3391 at gmail.com * *www.SWNL.net* >> Solarwinds Northernlights *//* >> */     Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California/**/ >> /**/ 207-832-7574   Cl. 610-517-8401 /* >> *//**/Blair "TUMP" May/* >> >> */               ********  MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**//**/NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"/**/ >> /**/ >> ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** >> /**/        Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"/* >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Sep 1 18:33:03 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:33:03 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christopher, I can’t be certain, but I suspect that the APSmart units have the same circuitry as the Tigo RSD units. I say that because of the press release below. I suspect that the only difference is the enclosure, but that is merely speculation. Interestingly, I worked for Tigo nearly a decade ago. Way back then they had just developed the “PV Safe” button, which if I recall was essentially just a software feature. I remember giving a seminar with Brooks in audience - he was very intrigued and said that this side feature was probably more important than any of the other whiz bang stuff that we were trying to promote. I think this was right around the time when RSD was first being discussed. The irony is stinging me now that I was, and I must admit still am, a proponent of finding some way to safely de-energize panels/arrays (just not with a piece of plastic junk). I like what Einstein said ”Information is not knowledge. The only source of knowledge is experience. You need experience to gain wisdom.” APsystems Withdraws IPR Cases With Patent Office Against Tigo Energy and Signs License Agreement April 28, 2021 01:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--APsystems has announced that the company has withdrawn its IPR cases with the patent office against Tigo Energy following the joint settlement reached by both APsystems and Tigo Energy in the IP dispute. While APsystems denies any kind of infringement and complies with Sunspec RSD requirements, to avoid the expenses and inconvenience of litigation, APsystems has agreed on the settlement with Tigo under which APsystems obtains a license to use Tigo’s rapid shutdown technology. The licensed technology is the same as the 6 patents that Tigo disclosed to Sunspec in 2017. APsystems will continue to deliver leading edge RSD solutions to its customers. Terms of the license agreement are not disclosed and include APsystems legal entities in the US as well as in China. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified 1. Re: Exploding RSD Unit (Christopher Warfel) Is this the same concept as Tigo? (and others) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hiltondier at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 00:19:01 2021 From: hiltondier at gmail.com (Hilton Dier) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 00:19:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Message-ID: This may be a bit out of the usual path for this kind of complaint, but… The NEC isn’t law in itself. It is written by a private entity (NFPA) and adopted by municipalities and states. They can adopt whatever version they prefer. It’s within the rights of any jurisdiction to adapt or amend the NEC as they see fit. Rather than grind through the NEC process, maybe you could go to a friendly legislator or city council member and say “The RSDs are a bigger threat than what they are supposed to guard against. Delete that part.” No idea whether this would be harder or not. It might also have the salutary effect of influencing the NFPA to speed up the process of correcting mistakes. I do get the impression sometimes that the process is “Here’s an experimental piece of hardware made by only one manufacturer that solves a problem that will happen less often than this hardware failing. Let’s mandate that.” Hilton Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Missisquoi River Hydro LLC From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Sep 2 07:21:06 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 07:21:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2481e531-f83c-c664-f27b-c3deeb7a9fc3@entech-engineering.com> This appears to need a national approach and not just a local solution. I personally think that going through the process of CMP as outlined by Brian has a better chance than me trying to influence a legislator. What's in it for them?  They would have no affinity for the problem. To go to the RI State people would be a spider's web that I just would not approach.  Chris On 9/2/2021 12:19 AM, Hilton Dier wrote: > This may be a bit out of the usual path for this kind of complaint, but… > > The NEC isn’t law in itself. It is written by a private entity (NFPA) and adopted by municipalities and states. They can adopt whatever version they prefer. It’s within the rights of any jurisdiction to adapt or amend the NEC as they see fit. > > Rather than grind through the NEC process, maybe you could go to a friendly legislator or city council member and say “The RSDs are a bigger threat than what they are supposed to guard against. Delete that part.” No idea whether this would be harder or not. > > It might also have the salutary effect of influencing the NFPA to speed up the process of correcting mistakes. > > I do get the impression sometimes that the process is “Here’s an experimental piece of hardware made by only one manufacturer that solves a problem that will happen less often than this hardware failing. Let’s mandate that.” > > Hilton > > Hilton Dier III > Renewable Energy Design > Missisquoi River Hydro LLC > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 2 12:02:33 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:02:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42ecc1b26cee49b2df6a4af219f7bc3d@127.0.0.1> Can someone please send me a link or the original pix of the damage. I can't find it. Thank-you ! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 18:33:03 -0400, Jeremy Coxon wrote: Christopher, I can't be certain, but I suspect that the APSmart units have the same circuitry as the Tigo RSD units. I say that because of the press release below. I suspect that the only difference is the enclosure, but that is merely speculation. Interestingly, I worked for Tigo nearly a decade ago. Way back then they had just developed the "PV Safe" button, which if I recall was essentially just a software feature. I remember giving a seminar with Brooks in audience - he was very intrigued and said that this side feature was probably more important than any of the other whiz bang stuff that we were trying to promote. I think this was right around the time when RSD was first being discussed. The irony is stinging me now that I was, and I must admit still am, a proponent of finding some way to safely de-energize panels/arrays (just not with a piece of plastic junk). I like what Einstein said "Information is not knowledge. The only source of knowledge is experience. You need experience to gain wisdom." APsystems Withdraws IPR Cases With Patent Office Against Tigo Energy and Signs License Agreement April 28, 2021 01:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--APsystems has announced that the company has withdrawn its IPR cases with the patent office against Tigo Energy following the joint settlement reached by both APsystems and Tigo Energy in the IP dispute. While APsystems denies any kind of infringement and complies with Sunspec RSD requirements, to avoid the expenses and inconvenience of litigation, APsystems has agreed on the settlement with Tigo under which APsystems obtains a license to use Tigo's rapid shutdown technology. The licensed technology is the same as the 6 patents that Tigo disclosed to Sunspec in 2017. APsystems will continue to deliver leading edge RSD solutions to its customers. Terms of the license agreement are not disclosed and include APsystems legal entities in the US as well as in China. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified 1. Re: Exploding RSD Unit (Christopher Warfel) Is this the same concept as Tigo? (and others) Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Thu Sep 2 23:08:09 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:09 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall off-grid Message-ID: <012701d7a070$ed944ee0$c8bceca0$@com> Aloha, To my fellow Tesla Certified Installers.have you had any experience designing and installing PV plus Powerwall(s) with a back-up generator in a 100 percent off-grid application? Powerwalls are grid forming absent a grid and allow for the PV to provide power to loads and charge the Powerwall(s) and it's unclear to me whether it's possible, practical and successful to integrate another power generating source such as a fuel-driven generator. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 03:06:17 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 02:06:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? Message-ID: Wrenches, (This question actually does refer to the proper use of 'wrenches'...) While inspecting some recent work from one of our contractors, we noted that the PV module clamps had been torqued to ~150% of the racking manufacturer's specified value. My question is whether that might have any detrimental effect on the modules (frame, glass, cells, seal, etc) and whether it would be worth loosening the clamps and re-torquing them to the proper spec? For reference, 224 modules are installed. We were made aware that the contractor used an impact driver on the clamps, which accounts for the excessive torque applied. I definitely understand the temptation to use an impact driver for just about any hardware that needs turning—but my understanding is also that impact drivers are generally incompatible with machine screws. So my other question to the group is whether anyone has had success in dissuading subcontractors from using impact drivers so liberally on project sites? Any advice is appreciated. -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 3 09:35:58 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 06:35:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Corey - For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac Solarmount and tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8 years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self grounding clamps with teeth to bite into the module frame. We continued to use impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to have module glass failures with our SunPower commercial systems and these Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to torque wrenches for tightening the clamps. However, the failures continued. My guess is that the poor design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction with thinner “weaker” module frames exasperated the issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily install SunPower, and their residential module frames have a lip so all the pressure from the clamp doesn’t go to the glass. Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they are aluminum, there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be worried that the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause more damage than good if there aren’t any problems that have occurred to date. It’s a good question. August Luminalt On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 12:06 AM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > (This question actually does refer to the proper use of 'wrenches'...) > > While inspecting some recent work from one of our contractors, we noted > that the PV module clamps had been torqued to ~150% of the racking > manufacturer's specified value. My question is whether that might have any > detrimental effect on the modules (frame, glass, cells, seal, etc) and > whether it would be worth loosening the clamps and re-torquing them to the > proper spec? For reference, 224 modules are installed. > > We were made aware that the contractor used an impact driver on the > clamps, which accounts for the excessive torque applied. I definitely > understand the temptation to use an impact driver for just about > any hardware that needs turning—but my understanding is also that impact > drivers are generally incompatible with machine screws. So my other > question to the group is whether anyone has had success in dissuading > subcontractors from using impact drivers so liberally on project sites? Any > advice is appreciated. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- August Goers Luminalt o: 415.792.6666 m: 415.559.1525 august at luminalt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 11:00:39 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 08:00:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall off-grid In-Reply-To: <012701d7a070$ed944ee0$c8bceca0$@com> References: <012701d7a070$ed944ee0$c8bceca0$@com> Message-ID: Tesla now says they can but with so many better options we see no reason to there. JHA's are now not allowing PW's in garages, they must be on the exterior. Jerry On Thu, Sep 2, 2021, 8:45 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha, > > > > To my fellow Tesla Certified Installers…have you had any experience > designing and installing PV plus Powerwall(s) with a back-up generator in a > 100 percent off-grid application? > > > > Powerwalls are grid forming absent a grid and allow for the PV to provide > power to loads and charge the Powerwall(s) and it’s unclear to me whether > it’s possible, practical and successful to integrate another power > generating source such as a fuel-driven generator. > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 10:40:42 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:40:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda 3000i low ac output Message-ID: I have a Honda 3000i for my off grid system that shows 84 vac output. I suspect that the inverter is failing. Just checking to see if any of you have seen this failure mode? John Blittersdorf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 14:08:33 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 11:08:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches its not the tool its the user so when I hear about impacts got to know the feel. Jerry On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 12:06 AM Corey Shalanski wrote: > Wrenches, > > (This question actually does refer to the proper use of 'wrenches'...) > > While inspecting some recent work from one of our contractors, we noted > that the PV module clamps had been torqued to ~150% of the racking > manufacturer's specified value. My question is whether that might have any > detrimental effect on the modules (frame, glass, cells, seal, etc) and > whether it would be worth loosening the clamps and re-torquing them to the > proper spec? For reference, 224 modules are installed. > > We were made aware that the contractor used an impact driver on the > clamps, which accounts for the excessive torque applied. I definitely > understand the temptation to use an impact driver for just about > any hardware that needs turning—but my understanding is also that impact > drivers are generally incompatible with machine screws. So my other > question to the group is whether anyone has had success in dissuading > subcontractors from using impact drivers so liberally on project sites? Any > advice is appreciated. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Sat Sep 4 14:18:18 2021 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:18:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I definitely agree with Jerry’s comment… I’ll add some more to this in a bit I just want to say that right away. Benn On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 12:08 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > its not the tool its the user so when I hear about impacts got to know the > feel. > Jerry > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 12:06 AM Corey Shalanski > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> (This question actually does refer to the proper use of 'wrenches'...) >> >> While inspecting some recent work from one of our contractors, we noted >> that the PV module clamps had been torqued to ~150% of the racking >> manufacturer's specified value. My question is whether that might have any >> detrimental effect on the modules (frame, glass, cells, seal, etc) and >> whether it would be worth loosening the clamps and re-torquing them to the >> proper spec? For reference, 224 modules are installed. >> >> We were made aware that the contractor used an impact driver on the >> clamps, which accounts for the excessive torque applied. I definitely >> understand the temptation to use an impact driver for just about >> any hardware that needs turning—but my understanding is also that impact >> drivers are generally incompatible with machine screws. So my other >> question to the group is whether anyone has had success in dissuading >> subcontractors from using impact drivers so liberally on project sites? Any >> advice is appreciated. >> >> -- >> Corey Shalanski >> Jah Light Solar >> Portland, Jamaica >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Benn Kilburn CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc Employee Owner 14515 - 121A Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T5L 2T2 Direct: 780-784-1706 | Office: 780-474-8992 *www.skyfireenergy.com * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 14:39:38 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:39:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda 3000i low ac output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John; I have dealt with similar issues off-grid with the Honda 3000i "cubes," one client is in northern BC Canada and the 2 sites are only accessible by helicopter and float plane. So taking them to a local Honda PE shop is an expensive proposition! Before replacing the (super expensive) inverter, try these steps: - Unplug all the (numerous) white Molex wire connectors inside one at a time, clean the contacts with a wire brush, treat with anti-ox and replug. - Check all those wire harnesses for chafing and worn-through insulation. - Open the inverter, and check the wiring inside the aluminum case for chafing against the case. I believe this is a common failure area. - If those don't help, get the 3000i shop manual, it has a very thorough troubleshooting section, and: - There's an internal 6-pin plug under the throttle control where you can read the stator voltage, rotor voltage, etc. Hopefully it's something simple! The one Honda 3000i problem I was never able to solve was Magnum MMS inverters not accepting the AC input from the 3000i. We had similar systems at 2 camps, and tried both inverters with both generators (had to swap via heli of course) and it ended up as Magnum saying it's Honda's problem, and Honda saying it's Magnum's problem. Good luck! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 8:41 AM John Blittersdorf < john.blittersdorf at gmail.com> wrote: > I have a Honda 3000i for my off grid system that shows 84 vac output. I > suspect that the inverter is failing. Just checking to see if any of you > have seen this failure mode? > > John Blittersdorf > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Sat Sep 4 14:40:49 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 12:40:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d1d8689-8e7a-c34a-bbcd-323e08c12d85@solarray.com> I don't think impact drivers should be used at all, unless they have a way to adjust torque.  Instead, use a drill/ driver with torque setting set fairly low, and do a final tightening with a torque wrench.  Also, you need to be really careful what speed you use;  even with low torque, the screws can start binding from over heating, if driven too fast. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 9/4/21 12:08 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > its not the tool its the user so when I hear about impacts got to know > the feel. > Jerry > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 12:06 AM Corey Shalanski > wrote: > > Wrenches, > > (This question actually does refer to the proper use of 'wrenches'...) > > While inspecting some recent work from one of our contractors, we > noted that the PV module clamps had been torqued to ~150% of the > racking manufacturer's specified value. My question is whether > that might have any detrimental effect on the modules (frame, > glass, cells, seal, etc) and whether it would be worth loosening > the clamps and re-torquing them to the proper spec? For reference, > 224 modules are installed. > > We were made aware that the contractor used an impact driver on > the clamps, which accounts for the excessive torque applied. I > definitely understand the temptation to use an impact driver > for just about any hardware that needs turning—but my > understanding is also that impact drivers are generally > incompatible with machine screws. So my other question to the > group is whether anyone has had success in dissuading > subcontractors from using impact drivers so liberally on project > sites? Any advice is appreciated. > > -- > Corey Shalanski > Jah Light Solar > Portland, Jamaica > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coresolar at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:55:41 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 22:55:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: August, Thanks for your feedback.The racking model is EcoFoot2+ by Ecolibrium Solar (now part of Unirac). These module clamps are also self-grounding with teeth to bite into the module frame. I reached out to the manufacturer, who confirmed that the clamp material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware is stainless steel. The modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very much time has elapsed to be able to observe potential resultant damage. We haven't seen any problems so far. -- Corey On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August Goers wrote: > > Hi Corey - > > For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac Solarmount and > tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8 > years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self grounding > clamps with teeth to bite into the module frame. We continued to use > impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to > have module glass failures with our SunPower commercial systems and these > Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to torque wrenches for tightening > the clamps. However, the failures continued. My guess is that the poor > design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction with thinner “weaker” module > frames exasperated the issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps > and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily install SunPower, and > their residential module frames have a lip so all the pressure from the > clamp doesn’t go to the glass. > > Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they > are aluminum, there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be > worried that the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause > more damage than good if there aren’t any problems that have occurred to > date. It’s a good question. > > August > Luminalt > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 01:33:56 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 22:33:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 1/4" x 20 is no more the 10 ftlbs (120 inlbs) and a good 1/4" impact should be able to get you over 30 ftlb. When you overtorq bolts and nuts you put undue and irreversible stretching and or tearing of the material not to mention warping or bending of the plates, and rails, loosening and retorqing is a wait as if damage is done its done, the best solution is to replace all the stressed hardware. I have seen unirac "T" bolts crack the the rails with a bad result, so the question is how far do you want to dig and risk to take. Regarding cracked glass, I have only seen this with incorrect use of the clamps but over torqing will also crush the frames. I have inspected arrays after high wind events that resulted in destruction of the array and the manufacture in all cases used over torq as thier out so warranty are only as good as the installers. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 8:56 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > August, > > Thanks for your feedback.The racking model is EcoFoot2+ > by Ecolibrium Solar (now part > of Unirac). These module clamps are also self-grounding with teeth to bite > into the module frame. I reached out to the manufacturer, who confirmed > that the clamp material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware is stainless > steel. > > The modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very much time has > elapsed to be able to observe potential resultant damage. We haven't seen > any problems so far. > > -- > Corey > > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August Goers wrote: > >> >> Hi Corey - >> >> For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac Solarmount and >> tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8 >> years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self grounding >> clamps with teeth to bite into the module frame. We continued to use >> impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to >> have module glass failures with our SunPower commercial systems and these >> Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to torque wrenches for tightening >> the clamps. However, the failures continued. My guess is that the poor >> design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction with thinner “weaker” module >> frames exasperated the issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps >> and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily install SunPower, and >> their residential module frames have a lip so all the pressure from the >> clamp doesn’t go to the glass. >> >> Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they >> are aluminum, there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be >> worried that the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause >> more damage than good if there aren’t any problems that have occurred to >> date. It’s a good question. >> >> August >> Luminalt >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Mon Sep 6 19:15:15 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 19:15:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? Message-ID: <4395B7C9-8EED-498B-9FCF-FBA8EBB83538@sunwindpowerinc.com> That particular racking system is not very forgiving of over torquing because the SS studs are embedded in aluminum. I have seen where the stufs for both the mod clamps and the wind deflectors just spin in the aluminum. We use socket wrenches and torque wrenches to avoid that failure mode, especially on Ecolibrium. It takes FOREVER to try to remove a nut from a galded SS stud that you can’t grip. So the extra time of going manual is made up of just one or two nuts get stuck or a stud spins. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE From will at solarenergy.org Tue Sep 7 07:29:40 2021 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 07:29:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jerry, I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a reliable way to check for over torque. Thanks, Will On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:34 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > 1/4" x 20 is no more the 10 ftlbs (120 inlbs) and a good 1/4" impact > should be able to get you over 30 ftlb. When you overtorq bolts and nuts > you put undue and irreversible stretching and or tearing of the material > not to mention warping or bending of the plates, and rails, loosening and > retorqing is a wait as if damage is done its done, the best solution is to > replace all the stressed hardware. I have seen unirac "T" bolts crack the > the rails with a bad result, so the question is how far do you want to dig > and risk to take. Regarding cracked glass, I have only seen this with > incorrect use of the clamps but over torqing will also crush the frames. I > have inspected arrays after high wind events that resulted in destruction > of the array and the manufacture in all cases used over torq as thier out > so warranty are only as good as the installers. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 8:56 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: > >> August, >> >> Thanks for your feedback.The racking model is EcoFoot2+ >> by Ecolibrium Solar (now >> part of Unirac). These module clamps are also self-grounding with teeth to >> bite into the module frame. I reached out to the manufacturer, who >> confirmed that the clamp material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware is >> stainless steel. >> >> The modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very much time has >> elapsed to be able to observe potential resultant damage. We haven't seen >> any problems so far. >> >> -- >> Corey >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August Goers wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Corey - >>> >>> For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac Solarmount and >>> tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8 >>> years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self grounding >>> clamps with teeth to bite into the module frame. We continued to use >>> impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to >>> have module glass failures with our SunPower commercial systems and these >>> Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to torque wrenches for tightening >>> the clamps. However, the failures continued. My guess is that the poor >>> design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction with thinner “weaker” module >>> frames exasperated the issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps >>> and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily install SunPower, and >>> their residential module frames have a lip so all the pressure from the >>> clamp doesn’t go to the glass. >>> >>> Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they >>> are aluminum, there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be >>> worried that the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause >>> more damage than good if there aren’t any problems that have occurred to >>> date. It’s a good question. >>> >>> August >>> Luminalt >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reellison at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 08:18:23 2021 From: reellison at gmail.com (RE Ellison) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 08:18:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Honda 3000i low ac output In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3158E8FA-8D9F-4F26-8D39-65A623232F19@gmail.com> I use the HarborFreight inverter generators and have had no problem at all with any of the magnums charging from them Can’t say about the Honda but there’s something strange there obviously Bob > On Sep 4, 2021, at 2:39 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > > John; I have dealt with similar issues off-grid with the Honda 3000i "cubes," one client is in northern BC Canada and the 2 sites are only accessible by helicopter and float plane. So taking them to a local Honda PE shop is an expensive proposition! > > Before replacing the (super expensive) inverter, try these steps: > Unplug all the (numerous) white Molex wire connectors inside one at a time, clean the contacts with a wire brush, treat with anti-ox and replug. > Check all those wire harnesses for chafing and worn-through insulation. > Open the inverter, and check the wiring inside the aluminum case for chafing against the case. I believe this is a common failure area. > If those don't help, get the 3000i shop manual, it has a very thorough troubleshooting section, and: > There's an internal 6-pin plug under the throttle control where you can read the stator voltage, rotor voltage, etc. > Hopefully it's something simple! > > The one Honda 3000i problem I was never able to solve was Magnum MMS inverters not accepting the AC input from the 3000i. We had similar systems at 2 camps, and tried both inverters with both generators (had to swap via heli of course) and it ended up as Magnum saying it's Honda's problem, and Honda saying it's Magnum's problem. > > Good luck! > > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > >> On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 8:41 AM John Blittersdorf wrote: >> I have a Honda 3000i for my off grid system that shows 84 vac output. I suspect that the inverter is failing. Just checking to see if any of you have seen this failure mode? >> >> John Blittersdorf >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 12:36:37 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wrenches Per request from Unirac I cut sections off and sent it back to unirac and they say that modules that did not come loose we over tightened, they do something like magaflux on iron, they could see fractures in the rails, aluminum cracks when bent where steel is bending. Jerry On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 4:30 AM Will White wrote: > Jerry, > > I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's > easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a > reliable way to check for over torque. > > Thanks, > Will > > On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:34 AM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> 1/4" x 20 is no more the 10 ftlbs (120 inlbs) and a good 1/4" impact >> should be able to get you over 30 ftlb. When you overtorq bolts and nuts >> you put undue and irreversible stretching and or tearing of the material >> not to mention warping or bending of the plates, and rails, loosening and >> retorqing is a wait as if damage is done its done, the best solution is to >> replace all the stressed hardware. I have seen unirac "T" bolts crack the >> the rails with a bad result, so the question is how far do you want to dig >> and risk to take. Regarding cracked glass, I have only seen this with >> incorrect use of the clamps but over torqing will also crush the frames. I >> have inspected arrays after high wind events that resulted in destruction >> of the array and the manufacture in all cases used over torq as thier out >> so warranty are only as good as the installers. >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV inspector >> >> On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 8:56 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: >> >>> August, >>> >>> Thanks for your feedback.The racking model is EcoFoot2+ >>> by Ecolibrium Solar (now >>> part of Unirac). These module clamps are also self-grounding with teeth to >>> bite into the module frame. I reached out to the manufacturer, who >>> confirmed that the clamp material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware is >>> stainless steel. >>> >>> The modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very much time has >>> elapsed to be able to observe potential resultant damage. We haven't seen >>> any problems so far. >>> >>> -- >>> Corey >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August Goers wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Corey - >>>> >>>> For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac Solarmount and >>>> tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8 >>>> years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self grounding >>>> clamps with teeth to bite into the module frame. We continued to use >>>> impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to >>>> have module glass failures with our SunPower commercial systems and these >>>> Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to torque wrenches for tightening >>>> the clamps. However, the failures continued. My guess is that the poor >>>> design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction with thinner “weaker” module >>>> frames exasperated the issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps >>>> and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily install SunPower, and >>>> their residential module frames have a lip so all the pressure from the >>>> clamp doesn’t go to the glass. >>>> >>>> Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they >>>> are aluminum, there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be >>>> worried that the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause >>>> more damage than good if there aren’t any problems that have occurred to >>>> date. It’s a good question. >>>> >>>> August >>>> Luminalt >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 7 14:52:51 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 11:52:51 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?_Over-torquing_Module_Clamps=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A few other ways to test, mainly for SS. Cracks in components, especially cracks that are orientated transverse to the load are a sign of impending failure. Cracks can be found using visual inspection (using a 50 x magnifier), or by dye penetrant testing. X-ray testing, eddy current testing, ultrasonic testing and other professional methods can also be used. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:37 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: Wrenches Per request from Unirac I cut sections off and sent it back to unirac and they say that modules that did not come loose we over tightened, they do something like magaflux on iron, they could see fractures in the rails, aluminum cracks when bent where steel is bending. Jerry On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 4:30 AM Will White wrote: Jerry, I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a reliable way to check for over torque. Thanks, Will On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:34 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: 1/4" x 20 is no more the 10 ftlbs (120 inlbs) and a good 1/4" impact should be able to get you over 30 ftlb. When you overtorq bolts and nuts you put undue and irreversible stretching and or tearing of the material not to mention warping or bending of the plates, and rails, loosening and retorqing is a wait as if damage is done its done, the best solution is to replace all the stressed hardware. I have seen unirac "T" bolts crack the the rails with a bad result, so the question is how far do you want to dig and risk to take. Regarding cracked glass, I have only seen this with incorrect use of the clamps but over torqing will also crush the frames. I have inspected arrays after high wind events that resulted in destruction of the array and the manufacture in all cases used over torq as thier out so warranty are only as good as the installers. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 8:56 PM Corey Shalanski wrote: August, Thanks for your feedback.The racking model is EcoFoot2+ [6] by Ecolibrium Solar (now part of Unirac). These module clamps are also self-grounding with teeth to bite into the module frame. I reached out to the manufacturer, who confirmed that the clamp material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware is stainless steel. The modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very much time has elapsed to be able to observe potential resultant damage. We haven't seen any problems so far. -- Corey On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August Goers wrote: Hi Corey - For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac Solarmount and tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8 years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self grounding clamps with teeth to bite into the module frame. We continued to use impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to have module glass failures with our SunPower commercial systems and these Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to torque wrenches for tightening the clamps. However, the failures continued. My guess is that the poor design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction with thinner "weaker" module frames exasperated the issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily install SunPower, and their residential module frames have a lip so all the pressure from the clamp doesn't go to the glass. Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they are aluminum, there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be worried that the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause more damage than good if there aren't any problems that have occurred to date. It's a good question. August Luminalt _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [8] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [11] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [12] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [14] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [15] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [16] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [18] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [19] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [20] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [21] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [22] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [23] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [25] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [26] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [27] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [28] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:will at solarenergy.org [4] mailto:jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com [5] mailto:coresolar at gmail.com [6] https://ecolibriumsolar.com/ecofoot2plus/ [7] mailto:august at luminalt.com [8] http://re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [12] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [13] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [14] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [15] http://re-wrenches.org [16] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [19] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [20] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [21] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [22] http://re-wrenches.org [23] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [24] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [25] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [26] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [27] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [28] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dahlsolar at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 15:01:43 2021 From: dahlsolar at gmail.com (Jesse Dahl) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:01:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLEXmax 100 Message-ID: <12661AB4-12C2-4422-ACB8-F89E95C72471@gmail.com> Hi. We have a 24V bi-modal outback system that run the residential wiring labs for the electrical program I teach. Long story short, the FM60 we are currently using had an operator error and we need to get a new charge controller. Can the FM100 Work “seamlessly” with an older outback systems? Wire sizes and array sizes all work out according to the data sheets and documents I’ve read. Is there any unforeseen issues with the MATE3 or optics RE that would come up if we upgrade to the 100? The Higher array VOC for the 100 will make the labs easier to set up, that’s why I’d like to get the 100. Thanks, Jesse Sent from my iPhone From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 15:54:31 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:54:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLEXmax 100 In-Reply-To: <12661AB4-12C2-4422-ACB8-F89E95C72471@gmail.com> References: <12661AB4-12C2-4422-ACB8-F89E95C72471@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jesse, The FM100 is not compatible with the original Mate or discontinued Mate3. The controller must be the Mate3s. Sounds like you have this covered, you should be good to go. If this is an older system the AFCI might give you some trouble. Technically you can disable, but that’s your call. -Chris On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 3:40 PM Jesse Dahl wrote: > Hi. > > We have a 24V bi-modal outback system that run the residential wiring labs > for the electrical program I teach. Long story short, the FM60 we are > currently using had an operator error and we need to get a new charge > controller. Can the FM100 Work “seamlessly” with an older outback systems? > Wire sizes and array sizes all work out according to the data sheets and > documents I’ve read. Is there any unforeseen issues with the MATE3 or > optics RE that would come up if we upgrade to the 100? The Higher array VOC > for the 100 will make the labs easier to set up, that’s why I’d like to get > the 100. > > Thanks, > > Jesse > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Tue Sep 7 16:49:20 2021 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 13:49:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Wrench Subcommittee In-Reply-To: <2481e531-f83c-c664-f27b-c3deeb7a9fc3@entech-engineering.co m> References: <2481e531-f83c-c664-f27b-c3deeb7a9fc3@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <1631047777031.5f1d093576f237df@re-wrenches.org> Hi Wrenches. Please contact me OFF List if interested, and I will add you to the listserver I have repurposed for this project: It appears that there are many WRENCHES members who believe the NEC language regarding Rapid Shutdown should be significantly changed, and/or the Rapid Shutdown requirements should be eliminated. A WRENCHES member has volunteered to help develop language to achieve this that will be submitted to the NEC's channels required for such consideration. The member is setting a deadline of expressed interest by September 14. After that time, the process will begin. It is planned that this process will be undertaken by emails, and somewhat regimented in order to develop language in a time effective manner. From lones.tuss at enersys.com Tue Sep 7 16:36:25 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:36:25 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLEXmax 100 In-Reply-To: <12661AB4-12C2-4422-ACB8-F89E95C72471@gmail.com> References: <12661AB4-12C2-4422-ACB8-F89E95C72471@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Sir The FM100AFCI will need to paired up with a Mate3S. The FM100 has on board ground Fault Detection so the GFDI used with the FM60/80 is not required Please see page 13 in the manual below. https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/charge_controllers/flexmax_100_afci/fm100_afci_manual.pdf There are 300 vdc rated breakers available due to the higher dc voltages possible on the array. The breaker part numbers are listed on page 15 in the above manual. I hope this helps. Take Care and Stay Safe -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jesse Dahl Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2021 12:02 PM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLEXmax 100 CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Hi. We have a 24V bi-modal outback system that run the residential wiring labs for the electrical program I teach. Long story short, the FM60 we are currently using had an operator error and we need to get a new charge controller. Can the FM100 Work “seamlessly” with an older outback systems? Wire sizes and array sizes all work out according to the data sheets and documents I’ve read. Is there any unforeseen issues with the MATE3 or optics RE that would come up if we upgrade to the 100? The Higher array VOC for the 100 will make the labs easier to set up, that’s why I’d like to get the 100. Thanks, Jesse Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=342a0c9f-6bb13449-34290514-86ae1f962b30-439262079b22cd5c&q=1&e=6969e4fc-681b-4a2e-a8f4-1a337b4f9a50&u=http%3A%2F%2Fre-wrenches.org%2F List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=4f57ff66-10ccc7b0-4f54f6ed-86ae1f962b30-5667499a2be9e892&q=1&e=6969e4fc-681b-4a2e-a8f4-1a337b4f9a50&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=fbb57e29-a42e46ff-fbb677a2-86ae1f962b30-eae306de7fc53f7e&q=1&e=6969e4fc-681b-4a2e-a8f4-1a337b4f9a50&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=cc2da448-93b69c9e-cc2eadc3-86ae1f962b30-8ffc6f3bfd79e1c5&q=1&e=6969e4fc-681b-4a2e-a8f4-1a337b4f9a50&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=cc59b181-93c28957-cc5ab80a-86ae1f962b30-a3fea6b17cdd3aa3&q=1&e=6969e4fc-681b-4a2e-a8f4-1a337b4f9a50&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. From coresolar at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 00:41:49 2021 From: coresolar at gmail.com (Corey Shalanski) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 23:41:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Will, I'm not sure if this is what you were asking (I see that your message was directed to Jerry), but we 'discovered' the over torquing by setting our torque wrench on the spec value and confirming that the wrench 'clicked,' and then progressively increased the setting higher and continued checking until the wrench did not click and nudged the nut a bit. -- Corey On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 7:29 AM Will White wrote: > Jerry, > > I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's > easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a > reliable way to check for over torque. > > Thanks, > Will > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 8 01:32:22 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 22:32:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That phenomenon could be just the result of the fasteners resting exposed to the elements. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Sep 7, 2021, at 9:42 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote: > >  > Hi Will, > > I'm not sure if this is what you were asking (I see that your message was directed to Jerry), but we 'discovered' the over torquing by setting our torque wrench on the spec value and confirming that the wrench 'clicked,' and then progressively increased the setting higher and continued checking until the wrench did not click and nudged the nut a bit. > > -- > Corey > > >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 7:29 AM Will White wrote: >> Jerry, >> >> I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a reliable way to check for over torque. >> >> Thanks, >> Will > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarguy2004 at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 11:52:29 2021 From: solarguy2004 at gmail.com (Jim Duncan) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:52:29 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would have figured that everyone in the PV industry would know about anti-seize compound by now. SS to SS or SS to Al is prone to seizing even when not over-tightened. Dis-similar metals everywhere can be vulnerable to seizing. Jim Duncan, retired North Texas Renewable Energy Inc 817.917.0527 solarguy2004 at gmail.com https://www.grainger.com/product/2VFF3 ***************************************** On 9/7/2021 11:36 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Wrenches > Per request from Unirac I cut sections off and sent it back to unirac > and they say that modules that did not come loose we over tightened, > they do something like magaflux on iron, they could see fractures in > the rails, aluminum cracks when bent where steel is bending. > Jerry > > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 4:30 AM Will White > wrote: > > Jerry, > > I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing > inspections it's easy to find connectors that are under torqued > but I haven't heard of a reliable way to check for over torque. > > Thanks, > Will > > On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:34 AM Jerry Shafer > > wrote: > > 1/4" x 20 is no more the 10 ftlbs (120 inlbs) and a good 1/4" > impact should be able to get you over 30 ftlb. When you > overtorq bolts and nuts you put undue and irreversible > stretching and or tearing of the material not to mention > warping or bending of the plates, and rails, loosening and > retorqing is a wait as if damage is done its done, the best > solution is to replace all the stressed hardware. I have seen > unirac "T" bolts crack the the rails with a bad result, so the > question is how far do you want to dig and risk to take. > Regarding cracked glass, I have only seen this with incorrect > use of the clamps but over torqing will also crush the frames. > I have inspected arrays after high wind events that resulted > in destruction of the array and the manufacture in all cases > used over torq as thier out so warranty are only as good as > the installers. > Jerry > NABCEP PV inspector > > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 8:56 PM Corey Shalanski > > wrote: > > August, > > Thanks for your feedback.The racking model is EcoFoot2+ > by Ecolibrium > Solar (now part of Unirac). These module clamps are also > self-grounding with teeth to bite into the module frame. I > reached out to the manufacturer, who confirmed that > the clamp material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware > is stainless steel. > > The modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very > much time has elapsed to be able to observe potential > resultant damage. We haven't seen any problems so far. > > -- > Corey > > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August Goers > > wrote: > > > Hi Corey - > > For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac > Solarmount and tightened the clamps with impact > drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8 years ago, > Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self > grounding clamps with teeth to bite into the module > frame. We continued to use impacts with no issue. > Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to have > module glass failures with our SunPower commercial > systems and these Unirac clamps. We immediately > switched to torque wrenches for tightening the clamps. > However, the failures continued. My guess is that the > poor design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction > with thinner “weaker” module frames exasperated the > issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps and > continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily > install SunPower, and their residential module frames > have a lip so all the pressure from the clamp doesn’t > go to the glass. > > Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps > do you have? If they are aluminum, there may be less > risk than the stainless clamps. I would be worried > that the process of loosening and then re-tightening > might cause more damage than good if there aren’t any > problems that have occurred to date. It’s a good question. > > August > Luminalt > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one > doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 8 14:28:07 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 11:28:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Battery failure September 2021 Message-ID: <0a7c71bcee371e42841dd6c6eb7d9541@127.0.0.1> * A 300 MW/1,200 MWh storage system at Vistra Corp's Moss Landing Energy Storage Facility in Monterey Bay, Calif., remains offline [1] after an overheating issue over the weekend. * According to a Vistra statement, "a limited number of battery modules" at the storage facility overheated on Saturday night, resulting in the facility going offline. The company said that the overheating was contained and controlled without outside assistance, although the North County Fire Protection District of Monterey County was called to respond. * The 300 MW unit will remain offline for an undetermined length pending an investigation by Vistra, engineering contractor Fluence and battery manufacturer LG Energy Solution. The California Public Utilities Commission said in a statement that it is also investigating the incident. There were no injuries and Vistra said its "risk mitigation and safety systems worked as designed." Sprinkler systems targeted the affected modules and stopped thermal runaway. Fire crews responding to the incident told local news station KION [2] that battery racks had been "scorched" and some wires were "melted." Vistra has not announced details on a root cause of the incident. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] https://investor.vistracorp.com/news?item=197 [2] https://kion546.com/news/local-news/top-stories/2021/09/06/battery-modules-overheat-at-vistras-moss-landing-energy-storage-facility/ [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Sep 8 17:45:57 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 14:45:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Message-ID: Friends: I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. I am working on a utility scale system built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the moment is: Repair or replace? Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on these inverters but none has followed through. Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage with DC-DC converters. Here are the options I see: Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here is a paper on the subject. If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any wisdom. Here is a link to a web-page I built for this project. Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Sep 8 19:43:53 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:43:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - You raise a great question - can you install 600 VDC modules on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system? Of course the DC optimizer output circuit would need to be rewired with 1000 VDC wiring and connectors, but I think the answer is "yes." According to this article , "In a SolarEdge system, the PV modules are isolated from the DC output circuit by the power optimizer." To me, it sounds like there is no risk of going over the max optimizer input voltage. I would want to verify this with SolarEdge prior to designing any systems, but it seems like a good idea to explore! I was recently on another group chat, and someone mentioned being in a similar predicament to you. They want to upgrade an old central inverter. Anyway, they had found that the SMA CORE1 33 kW unit at least can be strung up to work with 600 VDC modules and wiring: https://files.sma.de/downloads/STPCORE1-DS-en-28.pdf?_ga=2.30799225.717469396.1631144387-1894865662.1631144383 I'm sure you'd have to redo a lot of the conduit and wire to accommodate several smaller inverters, but this might be worth exploring as well. August Luminalt On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:13 PM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing > inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the > high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has > become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are > all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are > no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. > > > > I am working on a utility scale system > > built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two > 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the > moment is: Repair or replace? > > > > Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the > future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet > to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. > There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on > these inverters but none has followed through. > > > > Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC > max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, > or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt > inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be > possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage > with DC-DC converters. > > > > Here are the options I see: > > > > Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a > 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The > inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the > optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a > catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? > > > > Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by > Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here > > is a paper on the subject. > > > > If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any > wisdom. > > > > Here is a link > > to a web-page I built for this project. > > > > Thanks, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 19:39:11 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 17:39:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7473F227-6BE5-4B64-9F52-5FA0DE8407D8@gmail.com> Hi william Here is possibly another option The sma 50 and 62 kw tripower core 1 have operating Mppt voltages down around 125-150vdc. I don’t know how the system is wired: combiners and sub combiners? What about installing the inverters in place of the combiners, then AC runs to the main AC buss via hanging wire trays. This eliminates the combiners, uses newer technologies, is probably a cheaper option buying time Until a full repower with new modules/ inverters can happen. Those 50 kw units are $4500 each. Which is of course the other option in my mind, full rebuild. The repair + parts kit puts you close to $200k in the hole with ancient inverters and 10+ year old panels. I don’t know if they can push more KW, but that array could probably be upgraded to double what it is now. With 125 kw string inverters, no combiners could be an option. There are going to be a lot of these issues in the future Let us know what option you figure out. Jay > On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:14 PM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Friends: > > I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. > > I am working on a utility scale system built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the moment is: Repair or replace? > > Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on these inverters but none has followed through. > > Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage with DC-DC converters. > > Here are the options I see: > > Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? > > Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here is a paper on the subject. > > If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any wisdom. > > Here is a link to a web-page I built for this project. > > Thanks, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 9 01:20:19 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 22:20:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88d42b187c6eb51726ce39333d939795@mail.gmail.com> August: Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have come to know I can count on you for that. The article you site is interesting, but I do not think it applies. The article is about current in strings, not voltages. This interpretation of considering string currents was first introduced to me by John Berdner (remember him?) in this article . The John Berdner white paper is essentially the same information as in the Solar Edge article you cited and is essential information. What is most interesting to me in John’s article is 690.9(A) FPN. It points out that one cannot ignore the possibility of backfeed from inverters. I have on occasion, when using this 690.9(A) exception to avoid combiner fuses, been required by plan checkers to provide documentation from an inverter manufacturer that the inverter proposed was UL certified to not be capable of providing backfeed current. This is in spite of any intuition that one might solidly hold that inverters can’t backfeed DC current. It’s not true just because it seems impossible, or even if the manufacturer says so, it’s only true if a listing agency says it is true. The question I am asking applies to voltage isolation: If I have 850 volts on the output of an optimizer and the optimizer fries, is there any possibility that fused components could connect the 850 volts to the input of the combiner? Most importantly, does a listing agency say it is not possible? If it is not certified, then using optimizers is not a design option. Three persons from Solar Edge have told me the isolation is infallible. I’m not trying to be difficult, but I really think this assertion has to confirmed by a listing agency. I have not seen that yet. Solar Edge has been quick to reply to my voicemails and has expressed a real interest in this project, much to their credit. I will press this point to them and I will post to this forum what I learn. By the way, I am sure you have not forgotten a recent flurry of posts on this site recently about rapid shut down device(s) frying in use. Optimizers are similar devices in the same demanding environment and exposed to high voltages as well. Equipment failure is always a possibility. Thanks again to those many participants who have replied to my question. I am much smarter because of my wrench forum friends. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 4:44 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Hi William - You raise a great question - can you install 600 VDC modules on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system? Of course the DC optimizer output circuit would need to be rewired with 1000 VDC wiring and connectors, but I think the answer is "yes." According to this article , "In a SolarEdge system, the PV modules are isolated from the DC output circuit by the power optimizer." To me, it sounds like there is no risk of going over the max optimizer input voltage. I would want to verify this with SolarEdge prior to designing any systems, but it seems like a good idea to explore! I was recently on another group chat, and someone mentioned being in a similar predicament to you. They want to upgrade an old central inverter. Anyway, they had found that the SMA CORE1 33 kW unit at least can be strung up to work with 600 VDC modules and wiring: https://files.sma.de/downloads/STPCORE1-DS-en-28.pdf?_ga=2.30799225.717469396.1631144387-1894865662.1631144383 I'm sure you'd have to redo a lot of the conduit and wire to accommodate several smaller inverters, but this might be worth exploring as well. August Luminalt On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:13 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. I am working on a utility scale system built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the moment is: Repair or replace? Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on these inverters but none has followed through. Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage with DC-DC converters. Here are the options I see: Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here is a paper on the subject. If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any wisdom. Here is a link to a web-page I built for this project. Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 9 01:57:36 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 22:57:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d9ba67eac279898c3d69e608d59c9ba@mail.gmail.com> August: I realized I made a poor choice of words in one place below. When I wrote “fused components” I met melted together in a heat failure, not protected by an overcurrent fuse. Wm August: Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have come to know I can count on you for that. The article you site is interesting, but I do not think it applies. The article is about current in strings, not voltages. This interpretation of considering string currents was first introduced to me by John Berdner (remember him?) in this article . The John Berdner white paper is essentially the same information as in the Solar Edge article you cited and is essential information. What is most interesting to me in John’s article is 690.9(A) FPN. It points out that one cannot ignore the possibility of backfeed from inverters. I have on occasion, when using this 690.9(A) exception to avoid combiner fuses, been required by plan checkers to provide documentation from an inverter manufacturer that the inverter proposed was UL certified to not be capable of providing backfeed current. This is in spite of any intuition that one might solidly hold that inverters can’t backfeed DC current. It’s not true just because it seems impossible, or even if the manufacturer says so, it’s only true if a listing agency says it is true. The question I am asking applies to voltage isolation: If I have 850 volts on the output of an optimizer and the optimizer fries, is there any possibility that fused components could connect the 850 volts to the input of the combiner? Most importantly, does a listing agency say it is not possible? If it is not certified, then using optimizers is not a design option. Three persons from Solar Edge have told me the isolation is infallible. I’m not trying to be difficult, but I really think this assertion has to confirmed by a listing agency. I have not seen that yet. Solar Edge has been quick to reply to my voicemails and has expressed a real interest in this project, much to their credit. I will press this point to them and I will post to this forum what I learn. By the way, I am sure you have not forgotten a recent flurry of posts on this site recently about rapid shut down device(s) frying in use. Optimizers are similar devices in the same demanding environment and exposed to high voltages as well. Equipment failure is always a possibility. Thanks again to those many participants who have replied to my question. I am much smarter because of my wrench forum friends. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 4:44 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Hi William - You raise a great question - can you install 600 VDC modules on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system? Of course the DC optimizer output circuit would need to be rewired with 1000 VDC wiring and connectors, but I think the answer is "yes." According to this article , "In a SolarEdge system, the PV modules are isolated from the DC output circuit by the power optimizer." To me, it sounds like there is no risk of going over the max optimizer input voltage. I would want to verify this with SolarEdge prior to designing any systems, but it seems like a good idea to explore! I was recently on another group chat, and someone mentioned being in a similar predicament to you. They want to upgrade an old central inverter. Anyway, they had found that the SMA CORE1 33 kW unit at least can be strung up to work with 600 VDC modules and wiring: https://files.sma.de/downloads/STPCORE1-DS-en-28.pdf?_ga=2.30799225.717469396.1631144387-1894865662.1631144383 I'm sure you'd have to redo a lot of the conduit and wire to accommodate several smaller inverters, but this might be worth exploring as well. August Luminalt On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:13 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. I am working on a utility scale system built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the moment is: Repair or replace? Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on these inverters but none has followed through. Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage with DC-DC converters. Here are the options I see: Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here is a paper on the subject. If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any wisdom. Here is a link to a web-page I built for this project. Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Sep 9 12:34:16 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:34:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: <2d9ba67eac279898c3d69e608d59c9ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <2d9ba67eac279898c3d69e608d59c9ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi William - I think I'm picking up on a couple of separate issues here. First, the question is whether you can install a module rated for 600 VDC max on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system. I realize that the article I linked to was talking about string combiners and currents, but the isolation between the module side and output side of the optimizer was the point. The max input voltage on the optimizers is less than 100 VDC, so it would seem safe to connect a module rated at 600 VDC. Keep in mind that this is just the maximum system voltage, not the Voc, Vmp, etc. Still, I would want to verify this with SolarEdge prior to proceeding with system design. Your second issue related to whether the inverter will backfeed in a fault condition is addressed in that article. I haven't done my homework to know whether the inverter listings test for this particular fault situation. I know that most string inverters (or maybe all?) that we've designed with over the last 15 years say that they don't contribute reverse fault current, so we don't count that current in our calculations for fusing. So getting back to your question - what happens if the optimizers fail, will modules be destroyed too? I'm sure SolarEdge's design team hopes the answer is no. Depending on how they fail, who knows? Let's hope they are designed and manufactured to the highest standards. August On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:11 PM William Miller wrote: > August: > > > > I realized I made a poor choice of words in one place below. When I wrote > “fused components” I met melted together in a heat failure, not protected > by an overcurrent fuse. > > > > Wm > > > > > > August: > > > > Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have come to know I can count on > you for that. > > > > The article you site is interesting, but I do not think it applies. The > article is about current in strings, not voltages. > > > > This interpretation of considering string currents was first introduced to > me by John Berdner (remember him?) in this article > . The John > Berdner white paper is essentially the same information as in the Solar > Edge article you cited and is essential information. > > > > What is most interesting to me in John’s article is 690.9(A) FPN. It > points out that one cannot ignore the possibility of backfeed from > inverters. > > > > I have on occasion, when using this 690.9(A) exception to avoid combiner > fuses, been required by plan checkers to provide documentation from an > inverter manufacturer that the inverter proposed was UL certified to not be > capable of providing backfeed current. This is in spite of any intuition > that one might solidly hold that inverters can’t backfeed DC current. It’s > not true just because it seems impossible, or even if the manufacturer says > so, it’s only true if a listing agency says it is true. > > > > The question I am asking applies to voltage isolation: If I have 850 > volts on the output of an optimizer and the optimizer fries, is there any > possibility that fused components could connect the 850 volts to the input > of the combiner? Most importantly, does a listing agency say it is not > possible? If it is not certified, then using optimizers is not a design > option. > > > > Three persons from Solar Edge have told me the isolation is infallible. > I’m not trying to be difficult, but I really think this assertion has to > confirmed by a listing agency. I have not seen that yet. > > > > Solar Edge has been quick to reply to my voicemails and has expressed a > real interest in this project, much to their credit. I will press this > point to them and I will post to this forum what I learn. > > > > By the way, I am sure you have not forgotten a recent flurry of posts on > this site recently about rapid shut down device(s) frying in use. > Optimizers are similar devices in the same demanding environment and > exposed to high voltages as well. Equipment failure is always a > possibility. > > > > Thanks again to those many participants who have replied to my question. > I am much smarter because of my wrench forum friends. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 4:44 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems > > > > Hi William - You raise a great question - can you install 600 VDC modules > on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system? Of course the DC optimizer output circuit > would need to be rewired with 1000 VDC wiring and connectors, but I think > the answer is "yes." According to this article > , > "In a SolarEdge system, the PV modules are isolated from the DC output > circuit by the power optimizer." To me, it sounds like there is no risk of > going over the max optimizer input voltage. I would want to verify this > with SolarEdge prior to designing any systems, but it seems like a good > idea to explore! > > > > I was recently on another group chat, and someone mentioned being in a > similar predicament to you. They want to upgrade an old central inverter. > Anyway, they had found that the SMA CORE1 33 kW unit at least can be strung > up to work with 600 VDC modules and wiring: > https://files.sma.de/downloads/STPCORE1-DS-en-28.pdf?_ga=2.30799225.717469396.1631144387-1894865662.1631144383 > > I'm sure you'd have to redo a lot of the conduit and wire to accommodate > several smaller inverters, but this might be worth exploring as well. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:13 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing > inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the > high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has > become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are > all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are > no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. > > > > I am working on a utility scale system > > built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two > 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the > moment is: Repair or replace? > > > > Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the > future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet > to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. > There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on > these inverters but none has followed through. > > > > Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC > max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, > or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt > inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be > possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage > with DC-DC converters. > > > > Here are the options I see: > > > > Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a > 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The > inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the > optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a > catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? > > > > Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by > Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here > > is a paper on the subject. > > > > If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any > wisdom. > > > > Here is a link > > to a web-page I built for this project. > > > > Thanks, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 9 13:04:55 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:04:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: References: <2d9ba67eac279898c3d69e608d59c9ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: August: I am not worried about the inverter backfeeding. I only brought that up because there was a precedent set that in order to rule out an electronic assembly backfeeding, it had to be listed as such. Here is what I am worried about: I am worried about the high voltage on the output of an optimizer crossing over the optimizer in a failure condition and energizing the input circuit of the optimizer. If I understand the design process correctly, manufacturing to high standards is not enough—a listing with a recognized agency to that effect is also required. Thanks again for thinking and writing about this. Your experience and expertise is valued. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:34 AM *To:* William Miller *Cc:* RE-wrenches; Greg Notley; jonathan.smith at solaredge.com; ryan.s at solaredge.com; Garrett Duffy *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Hi William - I think I'm picking up on a couple of separate issues here. First, the question is whether you can install a module rated for 600 VDC max on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system. I realize that the article I linked to was talking about string combiners and currents, but the isolation between the module side and output side of the optimizer was the point. The max input voltage on the optimizers is less than 100 VDC, so it would seem safe to connect a module rated at 600 VDC. Keep in mind that this is just the maximum system voltage, not the Voc, Vmp, etc. Still, I would want to verify this with SolarEdge prior to proceeding with system design. Your second issue related to whether the inverter will backfeed in a fault condition is addressed in that article. I haven't done my homework to know whether the inverter listings test for this particular fault situation. I know that most string inverters (or maybe all?) that we've designed with over the last 15 years say that they don't contribute reverse fault current, so we don't count that current in our calculations for fusing. So getting back to your question - what happens if the optimizers fail, will modules be destroyed too? I'm sure SolarEdge's design team hopes the answer is no. Depending on how they fail, who knows? Let's hope they are designed and manufactured to the highest standards. August On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:11 PM William Miller wrote: August: I realized I made a poor choice of words in one place below. When I wrote “fused components” I met melted together in a heat failure, not protected by an overcurrent fuse. Wm August: Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have come to know I can count on you for that. The article you site is interesting, but I do not think it applies. The article is about current in strings, not voltages. This interpretation of considering string currents was first introduced to me by John Berdner (remember him?) in this article . The John Berdner white paper is essentially the same information as in the Solar Edge article you cited and is essential information. What is most interesting to me in John’s article is 690.9(A) FPN. It points out that one cannot ignore the possibility of backfeed from inverters. I have on occasion, when using this 690.9(A) exception to avoid combiner fuses, been required by plan checkers to provide documentation from an inverter manufacturer that the inverter proposed was UL certified to not be capable of providing backfeed current. This is in spite of any intuition that one might solidly hold that inverters can’t backfeed DC current. It’s not true just because it seems impossible, or even if the manufacturer says so, it’s only true if a listing agency says it is true. The question I am asking applies to voltage isolation: If I have 850 volts on the output of an optimizer and the optimizer fries, is there any possibility that fused components could connect the 850 volts to the input of the combiner? Most importantly, does a listing agency say it is not possible? If it is not certified, then using optimizers is not a design option. Three persons from Solar Edge have told me the isolation is infallible. I’m not trying to be difficult, but I really think this assertion has to confirmed by a listing agency. I have not seen that yet. Solar Edge has been quick to reply to my voicemails and has expressed a real interest in this project, much to their credit. I will press this point to them and I will post to this forum what I learn. By the way, I am sure you have not forgotten a recent flurry of posts on this site recently about rapid shut down device(s) frying in use. Optimizers are similar devices in the same demanding environment and exposed to high voltages as well. Equipment failure is always a possibility. Thanks again to those many participants who have replied to my question. I am much smarter because of my wrench forum friends. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 4:44 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Hi William - You raise a great question - can you install 600 VDC modules on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system? Of course the DC optimizer output circuit would need to be rewired with 1000 VDC wiring and connectors, but I think the answer is "yes." According to this article , "In a SolarEdge system, the PV modules are isolated from the DC output circuit by the power optimizer." To me, it sounds like there is no risk of going over the max optimizer input voltage. I would want to verify this with SolarEdge prior to designing any systems, but it seems like a good idea to explore! I was recently on another group chat, and someone mentioned being in a similar predicament to you. They want to upgrade an old central inverter. Anyway, they had found that the SMA CORE1 33 kW unit at least can be strung up to work with 600 VDC modules and wiring: https://files.sma.de/downloads/STPCORE1-DS-en-28.pdf?_ga=2.30799225.717469396.1631144387-1894865662.1631144383 I'm sure you'd have to redo a lot of the conduit and wire to accommodate several smaller inverters, but this might be worth exploring as well. August Luminalt On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:13 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. I am working on a utility scale system built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the moment is: Repair or replace? Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on these inverters but none has followed through. Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage with DC-DC converters. Here are the options I see: Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here is a paper on the subject. If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any wisdom. Here is a link to a web-page I built for this project. Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Sep 9 13:28:43 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:28:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: References: <2d9ba67eac279898c3d69e608d59c9ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: William, Yes, I think we both agree - the SolarEdge system should be designed *and listed* to work with 600 VDC modules, even if the optimizer-output side is running at 850 VDC. Has SolarEdge given you any indication about whether this is a supported setup? August On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 10:11 AM William Miller wrote: > August: > > > > I am not worried about the inverter backfeeding. I only brought that up > because there was a precedent set that in order to rule out an electronic > assembly backfeeding, it had to be listed as such. > > > > Here is what I am worried about: I am worried about the high voltage on > the output of an optimizer crossing over the optimizer in a failure > condition and energizing the input circuit of the optimizer. > > > > If I understand the design process correctly, manufacturing to high > standards is not enough—a listing with a recognized agency to that effect > is also required. > > > > Thanks again for thinking and writing about this. Your experience and > expertise is valued. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:34 AM > *To:* William Miller > *Cc:* RE-wrenches; Greg Notley; jonathan.smith at solaredge.com; > ryan.s at solaredge.com; Garrett Duffy > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems > > > > Hi William - I think I'm picking up on a couple of separate issues here. > First, the question is whether you can install a module rated for 600 VDC > max on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system. I realize that the article I linked to > was talking about string combiners and currents, but the isolation between > the module side and output side of the optimizer was the point. The max > input voltage on the optimizers is less than 100 VDC, so it would seem safe > to connect a module rated at 600 VDC. Keep in mind that this is just the > maximum system voltage, not the Voc, Vmp, etc. Still, I would want to > verify this with SolarEdge prior to proceeding with system design. > > > > Your second issue related to whether the inverter will backfeed in a fault > condition is addressed in that article. I haven't done my homework to know > whether the inverter listings test for this particular fault situation. I > know that most string inverters (or maybe all?) that we've designed with > over the last 15 years say that they don't contribute reverse fault > current, so we don't count that current in our calculations for fusing. So > getting back to your question - what happens if the optimizers fail, will > modules be destroyed too? I'm sure SolarEdge's design team hopes the answer > is no. Depending on how they fail, who knows? Let's hope they are designed > and manufactured to the highest standards. > > > > August > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:11 PM William Miller > wrote: > > August: > > > > I realized I made a poor choice of words in one place below. When I wrote > “fused components” I met melted together in a heat failure, not protected > by an overcurrent fuse. > > > > Wm > > > > > > August: > > > > Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have come to know I can count on > you for that. > > > > The article you site is interesting, but I do not think it applies. The > article is about current in strings, not voltages. > > > > This interpretation of considering string currents was first introduced to > me by John Berdner (remember him?) in this article > . The John > Berdner white paper is essentially the same information as in the Solar > Edge article you cited and is essential information. > > > > What is most interesting to me in John’s article is 690.9(A) FPN. It > points out that one cannot ignore the possibility of backfeed from > inverters. > > > > I have on occasion, when using this 690.9(A) exception to avoid combiner > fuses, been required by plan checkers to provide documentation from an > inverter manufacturer that the inverter proposed was UL certified to not be > capable of providing backfeed current. This is in spite of any intuition > that one might solidly hold that inverters can’t backfeed DC current. It’s > not true just because it seems impossible, or even if the manufacturer says > so, it’s only true if a listing agency says it is true. > > > > The question I am asking applies to voltage isolation: If I have 850 > volts on the output of an optimizer and the optimizer fries, is there any > possibility that fused components could connect the 850 volts to the input > of the combiner? Most importantly, does a listing agency say it is not > possible? If it is not certified, then using optimizers is not a design > option. > > > > Three persons from Solar Edge have told me the isolation is infallible. > I’m not trying to be difficult, but I really think this assertion has to > confirmed by a listing agency. I have not seen that yet. > > > > Solar Edge has been quick to reply to my voicemails and has expressed a > real interest in this project, much to their credit. I will press this > point to them and I will post to this forum what I learn. > > > > By the way, I am sure you have not forgotten a recent flurry of posts on > this site recently about rapid shut down device(s) frying in use. > Optimizers are similar devices in the same demanding environment and > exposed to high voltages as well. Equipment failure is always a > possibility. > > > > Thanks again to those many participants who have replied to my question. > I am much smarter because of my wrench forum friends. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 4:44 PM > *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems > > > > Hi William - You raise a great question - can you install 600 VDC modules > on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system? Of course the DC optimizer output circuit > would need to be rewired with 1000 VDC wiring and connectors, but I think > the answer is "yes." According to this article > , > "In a SolarEdge system, the PV modules are isolated from the DC output > circuit by the power optimizer." To me, it sounds like there is no risk of > going over the max optimizer input voltage. I would want to verify this > with SolarEdge prior to designing any systems, but it seems like a good > idea to explore! > > > > I was recently on another group chat, and someone mentioned being in a > similar predicament to you. They want to upgrade an old central inverter. > Anyway, they had found that the SMA CORE1 33 kW unit at least can be strung > up to work with 600 VDC modules and wiring: > https://files.sma.de/downloads/STPCORE1-DS-en-28.pdf?_ga=2.30799225.717469396.1631144387-1894865662.1631144383 > > I'm sure you'd have to redo a lot of the conduit and wire to accommodate > several smaller inverters, but this might be worth exploring as well. > > > > August > > Luminalt > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:13 PM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > > > I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing > inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the > high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has > become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are > all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are > no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. > > > > I am working on a utility scale system > > built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two > 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the > moment is: Repair or replace? > > > > Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the > future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet > to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. > There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on > these inverters but none has followed through. > > > > Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC > max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, > or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt > inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be > possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage > with DC-DC converters. > > > > Here are the options I see: > > > > Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a > 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The > inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the > optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a > catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? > > > > Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by > Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here > > is a paper on the subject. > > > > If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any > wisdom. > > > > Here is a link > > to a web-page I built for this project. > > > > Thanks, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 10 10:57:31 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:57:31 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service disconnect Message-ID: Does anyone know if you can use the Smart Switch as a simple service disconnect if not installing solar and batteries now and have it work out of the box without any commissioning? I have a client building a new house and they are going to add solar and batteries after the certificate of occupancy is issued. I want to get the Smart switch installed as a service disconnect so I don't have to pull the meter later. I assume I can trust use the load side lugs to feed the main distribution panel in the home. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rebekah.hren at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 12:50:16 2021 From: rebekah.hren at gmail.com (Rebekah Hren) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:50:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't see why not, I have one I'm experimenting with in my garage now and it passes power through the bus prior to commissioning. I would make sure to add the Eaton BR main breaker in the Enpower at whatever amperage required for a more trustworthy discontent than the relay manual switch. It doesn't come with any breakers. You could also commission it as a single device, perhaps? The app lets you add devices later. Let us know if you try it! Rebekah On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 7:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Does anyone know if you can use the Smart Switch as a simple service > disconnect if not installing solar and batteries now and have it work out > of the box without any commissioning? > > I have a client building a new house and they are going to add solar and > batteries after the certificate of occupancy is issued. I want to get the > Smart switch installed as a service disconnect so I don't have to pull the > meter later. I assume I can trust use the load side lugs to feed the main > distribution panel in the home. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 10 13:51:22 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:51:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I plan to install both a main breaker and a load breaker because both will be necessary in my ultimate design. I don't plan on installing an Envoy at this time. So I can't do any of the commissioning tasks. I will let you know how it goes. On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 12:50 PM Rebekah Hren wrote: > I don't see why not, I have one I'm experimenting with in my garage now > and it passes power through the bus prior to commissioning. I would make > sure to add the Eaton BR main breaker in the Enpower at whatever amperage > required for a more trustworthy discontent than the relay manual switch. It > doesn't come with any breakers. > > You could also commission it as a single device, perhaps? The app lets you > add devices later. > Let us know if you try it! > Rebekah > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 7:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Does anyone know if you can use the Smart Switch as a simple service >> disconnect if not installing solar and batteries now and have it work out >> of the box without any commissioning? >> >> I have a client building a new house and they are going to add solar and >> batteries after the certificate of occupancy is issued. I want to get the >> Smart switch installed as a service disconnect so I don't have to pull the >> meter later. I assume I can trust use the load side lugs to feed the main >> distribution panel in the home. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at vecoop.ca Fri Sep 10 14:01:30 2021 From: eric at vecoop.ca (Eric Smiley) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:01:30 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The spec sheet indicates it is rated as Service Equipment in the US but not in Canada. :-( *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * * * On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 10:51, Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Yes, I plan to install both a main breaker and a load breaker because both > will be necessary in my ultimate design. I don't plan on installing an > Envoy at this time. So I can't do any of the commissioning tasks. > > I will let you know how it goes. > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 12:50 PM Rebekah Hren > wrote: > >> I don't see why not, I have one I'm experimenting with in my garage now >> and it passes power through the bus prior to commissioning. I would make >> sure to add the Eaton BR main breaker in the Enpower at whatever amperage >> required for a more trustworthy discontent than the relay manual switch. It >> doesn't come with any breakers. >> >> You could also commission it as a single device, perhaps? The app lets >> you add devices later. >> Let us know if you try it! >> Rebekah >> >> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 7:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know if you can use the Smart Switch as a simple service >>> disconnect if not installing solar and batteries now and have it work out >>> of the box without any commissioning? >>> >>> I have a client building a new house and they are going to add solar and >>> batteries after the certificate of occupancy is issued. I want to get the >>> Smart switch installed as a service disconnect so I don't have to pull the >>> meter later. I assume I can trust use the load side lugs to feed the main >>> distribution panel in the home. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 10 14:27:23 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:27:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, I know it's service rated here, but I wanted to make sure it would work functionally. I guess it's no different than a service rated generator ATS in that you can install the ATS without the generator and just have it there for future use. Thanks all for the feedback. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 2:01 PM Eric Smiley wrote: > The spec sheet indicates it is rated as Service Equipment in the US but > not in Canada. :-( > > > *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager > eric at vecoop.ca > T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> > T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> > *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * > > * * > > > On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 10:51, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Yes, I plan to install both a main breaker and a load breaker because >> both will be necessary in my ultimate design. I don't plan on installing an >> Envoy at this time. So I can't do any of the commissioning tasks. >> >> I will let you know how it goes. >> >> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 12:50 PM Rebekah Hren >> wrote: >> >>> I don't see why not, I have one I'm experimenting with in my garage now >>> and it passes power through the bus prior to commissioning. I would make >>> sure to add the Eaton BR main breaker in the Enpower at whatever amperage >>> required for a more trustworthy discontent than the relay manual switch. It >>> doesn't come with any breakers. >>> >>> You could also commission it as a single device, perhaps? The app lets >>> you add devices later. >>> Let us know if you try it! >>> Rebekah >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 7:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone know if you can use the Smart Switch as a simple service >>>> disconnect if not installing solar and batteries now and have it work out >>>> of the box without any commissioning? >>>> >>>> I have a client building a new house and they are going to add solar >>>> and batteries after the certificate of occupancy is issued. I want to get >>>> the Smart switch installed as a service disconnect so I don't have to pull >>>> the meter later. I assume I can trust use the load side lugs to feed the >>>> main distribution panel in the home. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Sep 10 14:32:11 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:32:11 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Ensemble with four Encharge 10 Message-ID: When installing a system with more than two Encharge 10 batteries, a separate load center needs to be used to combine AC battery output. It would just require two 2-pole breakers in a MLO panel. But I believe both of those breakers would need to be fastened down. If anyone is doing this, are you aware of a small four-space panel where you can put a hold down kit in both 2-pole breakers? Model number would be greatly appreciated. My Eaton rep claims that their breaker hold down kit only works in panels 150A and greater and only one space is provided for a hold down kit. Other than that, you would have to go to a panelboard with bolt on breakers. That doesn't sound right to me. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Fri Sep 10 22:33:25 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:33:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: References: <2d9ba67eac279898c3d69e608d59c9ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0c56956c4cf2d5383e29c5b599600b75@mail.gmail.com> Wrenches: Here is our answer. The logic is not what I anticipated but it works for me. Interesting that there is still a need to list inverters to provide zero backfeed current. This is necessary if you want to avoid fuses on two string installations. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jeff Laughy [mailto:Jeff.Laughy at solaredge.com] *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 1:35 PM *To:* Ryan Suchsland; Garrett Duffy; Jonathan Smith; william at millersolar.com *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Hello William, As part of the UL-1741 listing process, SolarEdge inverters are verified to provide zero back feed current to the input source circuits SolarEdge inverters are non-isolated, transformer-less, so the PV array needs to operate in an ungrounded floating state. The fixed DC string voltage for our 480 volt 3 phase inverters is 850 Vdc. Since the array is ungrounded, the highest voltage to ground measured anywhere on the string at the optimizer input connectors would be 425 Vdc. For this reason it is safe to use PV modules rated at 600 volts. Best Regards Jeff Laughy Principal Engineer M +1-209-607-2402 jeff.laughy at solaredge.com [image: cid:image001.gif at 01D495F8.2A2123F0] * *[image: Diagram Description automatically generated with low confidence] *From:* Ryan Suchsland *Sent:* Thursday, September 9, 2021 4:50 PM *To:* Garrett Duffy ; Jonathan Smith < Jonathan.Smith at solaredge.com> *Cc:* Jeff Laughy *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Hi all, I had a conversation with the customer earlier basically just to address his question, so I think it would be helpful to pull in Jeff here to help answer the questions. *Ryan Suchsland* Inside Sales Account Executive O: 510-897-8000 ext. 2180 M: 602-694-9570 Customer service & tech support 510-498-3200 ryan.suchsland at solaredge.com *From:* Garrett Duffy *Sent:* Thursday, September 9, 2021 12:49 PM *To:* Ryan Suchsland ; Jonathan Smith < Jonathan.Smith at solaredge.com> *Cc:* Jeff Laughy *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Removing customer. Ryan / John – do we need to pull in Jeff to review this? What is the status so we aren’t all working on this? Thank you, Garrett Duffy Channel Sales Manager – Central/Midwest Garrett.Duffy at solaredge.com T: +1-510-552-7326 [image: id:image001.gif at 01D495F3.28951F00] *From:* William Miller *Sent:* Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:05 AM *To:* August Goers *Cc:* RE-wrenches ; Greg Notley < greg at powercomengineering.com>; Jonathan Smith ; Ryan Suchsland ; Garrett Duffy < Garrett.Duffy at solaredge.com> *Subject:* RE: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems August: I am not worried about the inverter backfeeding. I only brought that up because there was a precedent set that in order to rule out an electronic assembly backfeeding, it had to be listed as such. Here is what I am worried about: I am worried about the high voltage on the output of an optimizer crossing over the optimizer in a failure condition and energizing the input circuit of the optimizer. If I understand the design process correctly, manufacturing to high standards is not enough—a listing with a recognized agency to that effect is also required. Thanks again for thinking and writing about this. Your experience and expertise is valued. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:34 AM *To:* William Miller *Cc:* RE-wrenches; Greg Notley; jonathan.smith at solaredge.com; ryan.s at solaredge.com; Garrett Duffy *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Hi William - I think I'm picking up on a couple of separate issues here. First, the question is whether you can install a module rated for 600 VDC max on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system. I realize that the article I linked to was talking about string combiners and currents, but the isolation between the module side and output side of the optimizer was the point. The max input voltage on the optimizers is less than 100 VDC, so it would seem safe to connect a module rated at 600 VDC. Keep in mind that this is just the maximum system voltage, not the Voc, Vmp, etc. Still, I would want to verify this with SolarEdge prior to proceeding with system design. Your second issue related to whether the inverter will backfeed in a fault condition is addressed in that article. I haven't done my homework to know whether the inverter listings test for this particular fault situation. I know that most string inverters (or maybe all?) that we've designed with over the last 15 years say that they don't contribute reverse fault current, so we don't count that current in our calculations for fusing. So getting back to your question - what happens if the optimizers fail, will modules be destroyed too? I'm sure SolarEdge's design team hopes the answer is no. Depending on how they fail, who knows? Let's hope they are designed and manufactured to the highest standards. August On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:11 PM William Miller wrote: August: I realized I made a poor choice of words in one place below. When I wrote “fused components” I met melted together in a heat failure, not protected by an overcurrent fuse. Wm August: Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I have come to know I can count on you for that. The article you site is interesting, but I do not think it applies. The article is about current in strings, not voltages. This interpretation of considering string currents was first introduced to me by John Berdner (remember him?) in this article . The John Berdner white paper is essentially the same information as in the Solar Edge article you cited and is essential information. What is most interesting to me in John’s article is 690.9(A) FPN. It points out that one cannot ignore the possibility of backfeed from inverters. I have on occasion, when using this 690.9(A) exception to avoid combiner fuses, been required by plan checkers to provide documentation from an inverter manufacturer that the inverter proposed was UL certified to not be capable of providing backfeed current. This is in spite of any intuition that one might solidly hold that inverters can’t backfeed DC current. It’s not true just because it seems impossible, or even if the manufacturer says so, it’s only true if a listing agency says it is true. The question I am asking applies to voltage isolation: If I have 850 volts on the output of an optimizer and the optimizer fries, is there any possibility that fused components could connect the 850 volts to the input of the combiner? Most importantly, does a listing agency say it is not possible? If it is not certified, then using optimizers is not a design option. Three persons from Solar Edge have told me the isolation is infallible. I’m not trying to be difficult, but I really think this assertion has to confirmed by a listing agency. I have not seen that yet. Solar Edge has been quick to reply to my voicemails and has expressed a real interest in this project, much to their credit. I will press this point to them and I will post to this forum what I learn. By the way, I am sure you have not forgotten a recent flurry of posts on this site recently about rapid shut down device(s) frying in use. Optimizers are similar devices in the same demanding environment and exposed to high voltages as well. Equipment failure is always a possibility. Thanks again to those many participants who have replied to my question. I am much smarter because of my wrench forum friends. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* August Goers [mailto:august at luminalt.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 4:44 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems Hi William - You raise a great question - can you install 600 VDC modules on a 1000 VDC SolarEdge system? Of course the DC optimizer output circuit would need to be rewired with 1000 VDC wiring and connectors, but I think the answer is "yes." According to this article , "In a SolarEdge system, the PV modules are isolated from the DC output circuit by the power optimizer." To me, it sounds like there is no risk of going over the max optimizer input voltage. I would want to verify this with SolarEdge prior to designing any systems, but it seems like a good idea to explore! I was recently on another group chat, and someone mentioned being in a similar predicament to you. They want to upgrade an old central inverter. Anyway, they had found that the SMA CORE1 33 kW unit at least can be strung up to work with 600 VDC modules and wiring: https://files.sma.de/downloads/STPCORE1-DS-en-28.pdf?_ga=2.30799225.717469396.1631144387-1894865662.1631144383 I'm sure you'd have to redo a lot of the conduit and wire to accommodate several smaller inverters, but this might be worth exploring as well. August Luminalt On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:13 PM William Miller wrote: Friends: I learned a new buzzword recently: “Re-powering.” It means replacing inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. I am working on a utility scale system built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the moment is: Repair or replace? Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on these inverters but none has followed through. Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage with DC-DC converters. Here are the options I see: Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here is a paper on the subject. If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any wisdom. Here is a link to a web-page I built for this project. Thanks, William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Click here to report this email as spam. This message has been scanned for malware by Websense. www.websense.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12268 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1807 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1449 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1809 bytes Desc: not available URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Sep 11 10:59:33 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:59:33 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] "Re-powering" Aging Utilty Scale PV systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been following this string with interest. The maintenance of decade old systems is important, as the modules are warrantied for 25 years. This duration is often considered in payback expectations. What actually fails in the utility scale inverters? Is the failure catastrophic, or do relays or some boards fail? How much of the inverter is compromised? Is there any hope that at least some of these could be put back into service by experienced electronic technicians? Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-09-08 17:45, William Miller wrote: >> > Friends: > > I learned a new buzzword recently: "Re-powering." It means replacing inverters on an existing PV system of ten or more years old. Due to the high number of systems of this vintage it appears that re-powering has become somewhat of a sub-industry. The big problem is these systems are all 600 Volt limited PV panels, combiners and re-combiners and there are no 600 volt utility grade inverters being manufactured. > > I am working on a utility scale system [1] built about 14 years ago that fits the description above. There are two 250KVA Xantrex GT250 inverters and one has failed. The question of the moment is: Repair or replace? > > Repair: If we fix these inverters, can we count on support in the future? We can negotiate a service contract with Schneider at a cost yet to be revealed. This requires we buy a spare parts kit for about $100K. There are a few other companies that claim to offer repair services on these inverters but none has followed through. > > Replace: The PV plant is built with panels and BOS all limited to 600 VDC max. There are no more 600 volt input utility scale inverters being built, or at least none that I have found. If we install a 1000 or 1500 volt inverter we may have to replace the entire PV array and BOS. It may be possible to convert the output of the existing panels to a higher voltage with DC-DC converters. > > Here are the options I see: > > Optimizers: One purveyor of optimizers is Solar Edge. Solar Edge offers a 100 KVA inverter. This inverter requires DC input of 850 volts. The inverter requires optimizers to obtain this voltage. The question: Do the optimizers isolate the PV from the higher string voltages in the case of a catastrophic failure of one or more of the optimizers? > > Repower with outboard DC-DC voltage converters, such as provided by Alencon Systems. Solectria has successfully done this. Here [2] is a paper on the subject. > > If anyone has dealt with this issue before I would sure appreciate any wisdom. > > Here is a link [3] to a web-page I built for this project. > > Thanks, > > William Miller > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com [4] > > CA Lic. 773985 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Links: ------ [1] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Commercial/CommercialTracker/CommercialTracker.html [2] https://alenconsystems.com/learning/pv-retrofits-with-transformerless-inverters/ [3] https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/30-Re-Powering/re-powering.html [4] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Mon Sep 13 22:06:49 2021 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 02:06:49 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Jason, Yes, you can install the Enpower prior to the storage system. You will just need to leave the Enpower in Manual Bypass mode. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 11:27 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service disconnect EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Yeah, I know it's service rated here, but I wanted to make sure it would work functionally. I guess it's no different than a service rated generator ATS in that you can install the ATS without the generator and just have it there for future use. Thanks all for the feedback. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 2:01 PM Eric Smiley > wrote: The spec sheet indicates it is rated as Service Equipment in the US but not in Canada. :-( [https://viridianenergy.ca/sites/all/themes/viridian/emails/signature-line.png] Eric Smiley, Project Manager eric at vecoop.ca T: 250.703.6004 T: 888.386.0116 VIRIDIANENERGY.CA [https://viridianenergy.ca/sites/all/themes/viridian/emails/signature-footer.png] On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 10:51, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Yes, I plan to install both a main breaker and a load breaker because both will be necessary in my ultimate design. I don't plan on installing an Envoy at this time. So I can't do any of the commissioning tasks. I will let you know how it goes. On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 12:50 PM Rebekah Hren > wrote: I don't see why not, I have one I'm experimenting with in my garage now and it passes power through the bus prior to commissioning. I would make sure to add the Eaton BR main breaker in the Enpower at whatever amperage required for a more trustworthy discontent than the relay manual switch. It doesn't come with any breakers. You could also commission it as a single device, perhaps? The app lets you add devices later. Let us know if you try it! Rebekah On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 7:57 AM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Does anyone know if you can use the Smart Switch as a simple service disconnect if not installing solar and batteries now and have it work out of the box without any commissioning? I have a client building a new house and they are going to add solar and batteries after the certificate of occupancy is issued. I want to get the Smart switch installed as a service disconnect so I don't have to pull the meter later. I assume I can trust use the load side lugs to feed the main distribution panel in the home. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 14 01:45:26 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 01:45:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service disconnect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Nick. That's the information I was looking for. For others interested in doing this I found the instructions here: https://support.enphase.com/s/article/Manual-override-mode-for-Enphase-Storage Jason On Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 10:07 PM Nick Soleil wrote: > Hey Jason, > > Yes, you can install the Enpower prior to the storage system. You will > just need to leave the Enpower in Manual Bypass mode. > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Jason Szumlanski > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 11:27 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Enpower Smart Switch as service > disconnect > > *EXTERNAL EMAIL* - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments.* > > > > > Yeah, I know it's service rated here, but I wanted to make sure it would > work functionally. I guess it's no different than a service rated generator > ATS in that you can install the ATS without the generator and just have it > there for future use. > > Thanks all for the feedback. > > Jason Szumlanski > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 2:01 PM Eric Smiley wrote: > > The spec sheet indicates it is rated as Service Equipment in the US but > not in Canada. :-( > > > *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager > eric at vecoop.ca > T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004> > T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116> > *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA * > > > > On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 10:51, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Yes, I plan to install both a main breaker and a load breaker because both > will be necessary in my ultimate design. I don't plan on installing an > Envoy at this time. So I can't do any of the commissioning tasks. > > I will let you know how it goes. > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 12:50 PM Rebekah Hren > wrote: > > I don't see why not, I have one I'm experimenting with in my garage now > and it passes power through the bus prior to commissioning. I would make > sure to add the Eaton BR main breaker in the Enpower at whatever amperage > required for a more trustworthy discontent than the relay manual switch. It > doesn't come with any breakers. > > You could also commission it as a single device, perhaps? The app lets you > add devices later. > Let us know if you try it! > Rebekah > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 7:57 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Does anyone know if you can use the Smart Switch as a simple service > disconnect if not installing solar and batteries now and have it work out > of the box without any commissioning? > > I have a client building a new house and they are going to add solar and > batteries after the certificate of occupancy is issued. I want to get the > Smart switch installed as a service disconnect so I don't have to pull the > meter later. I assume I can trust use the load side lugs to feed the main > distribution panel in the home. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 13:54:41 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:54:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay Message-ID: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> Wrenches, I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? Which board do I order and what is the best source? Many thanks, Michael Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Tue Sep 14 14:10:39 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:10:39 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Michael It sound like you are using the 12 volt aux out on the radian to activate a separate relay. If so disconnect the relay then check and see if the 12 aux attempts to go high (12v dc). If it does it may be a relay issue. The Radian does have an on board relay you could use that instead of a discrete relay. In AGS on the Mate3(s) just select Relay. I hope this helps sir. Take Care From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 10:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Wrenches, I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? Which board do I order and what is the best source? Many thanks, Michael Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 [cid:image001.gif at 01D7A959.241728C0] This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 14:15:49 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:15:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8149D237-1C54-416F-A62D-779772FBB9B9@gmail.com> Actually I’m using the 12V relay to activate a battery vent fan. For generator starting, I’m using the dry contact relay for two-wire start. I have the circuit protected by a 2amp fast acting fuse. Fuse is good. > On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Tuss, Lones wrote: > > Hi Michael > It sound like you are using the 12 volt aux out on the radian to activate a separate relay. > If so disconnect the relay then check and see if the 12 aux attempts to go high (12v dc). > If it does it may be a relay issue. > The Radian does have an on board relay you could use that instead of a discrete relay. > In AGS on the Mate3(s) just select Relay. > I hope this helps sir. > Take Care > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 10:55 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > > Wrenches, > > I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. > > Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? > > Which board do I order and what is the best source? > > Many thanks, > Michael > > > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > > > This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Sep 14 14:31:25 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:31:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: <8149D237-1C54-416F-A62D-779772FBB9B9@gmail.com> References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> <8149D237-1C54-416F-A62D-779772FBB9B9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Any way you can just use the relay in the Flexnet or maybe there isn’t one installed on that system? Nick > On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:15 AM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > > Actually I’m using the 12V relay to activate a battery vent fan. For generator starting, I’m using the dry contact relay for two-wire start. I have the circuit protected by a 2amp fast acting fuse. Fuse is good. > > >> On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Tuss, Lones > wrote: >> >> Hi Michael >> It sound like you are using the 12 volt aux out on the radian to activate a separate relay. >> If so disconnect the relay then check and see if the 12 aux attempts to go high (12v dc). >> If it does it may be a relay issue. >> The Radian does have an on board relay you could use that instead of a discrete relay. >> In AGS on the Mate3(s) just select Relay. >> I hope this helps sir. >> Take Care >> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar >> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 10:55 AM >> To: RE-wrenches > >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay >> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >> >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. >> >> Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? >> >> Which board do I order and what is the best source? >> >> Many thanks, >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> >> Morningstar Electric >> PO Box 1494 >> Mount Shasta, California 96067 >> 530-921-0560 >> CSLB 949635 >> >> >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Tue Sep 14 14:38:26 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:38:26 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Michael Nicks suggestion on the FNDC is smart. For parts on a 8048 try Zonna Energy. https://www.zonnaenergy.com/ From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 10:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Wrenches, I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? Which board do I order and what is the best source? Many thanks, Michael Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 [cid:image001.gif at 01D7A95D.06318400] This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 15:14:29 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:14:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank You Both. I appreciate it. > On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Tuss, Lones wrote: > > Hi Michael > Nicks suggestion on the FNDC is smart. > For parts on a 8048 try Zonna Energy. > https://www.zonnaenergy.com/ > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 10:55 AM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > > Wrenches, > > I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. > > Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? > > Which board do I order and what is the best source? > > Many thanks, > Michael > > > > > > Michael Morningstar > > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > > > This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Tue Sep 14 15:14:49 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:14:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion and closed loop charging Message-ID: <08ed656cc52afa2ae813782337002ef2@127.0.0.1> This question is for installers of Blue Ion. Have any of you used Schneider to close loop charge? I have a client who really wants to do this. I am really happy with Discover AES but might need to do this. Schneider says they support it but I want to know if this gets Soc and battery data out to the Web portal Insight Cloud. See pix Thx! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Blu2.PNG Type: image/png Size: 101749 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 14:15:33 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:15:33 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Larger battery inverters Message-ID: I had someone contact me and they need a 125-150 kw single phase 60hz UL listed battery inverter that can also sell to the grid. With preferably a high voltage battery input. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks Jay From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 14:10:29 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:10:29 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4958E961-7EDE-4CC8-883D-67187D0A0C23@gmail.com> There are two relays on that board, one dry one 12v. Aux output And Aux relay Do both not work? Jay > On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:55 AM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > > Wrenches, > > I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. > > Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? > > Which board do I order and what is the best source? > > Many thanks, > Michael > > > > > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 17:00:56 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:00:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: <4958E961-7EDE-4CC8-883D-67187D0A0C23@gmail.com> References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> <4958E961-7EDE-4CC8-883D-67187D0A0C23@gmail.com> Message-ID: I did not check whether or not the 12v relay was functional. I think I see where you are going. If the 12V relay isn’t working also, then the issue is elsewhere? Is that correct? I did look into using the FNDC relay, however it appears that it’s control is through the FNDC menu. Things are so simple when all my client has to do to control the generator is push the GEN button and choose a mode. Searching for the FNDC menu adds a layer of complexity. However, What I’m seeing is that the board that the relay is on is part of a stack boards that costs 2K. So, it sounds like my options are to check to see if the 12v relay functions and then use that to drive a relay, or use the FNDC relay, or spend 2k for the board stack. Michael > On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Jay wrote: > > There are two relays on that board, one dry one 12v. > > Aux output > And > Aux relay > > Do both not work? > > Jay > >> On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:55 AM, Michael Morningstar wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> >> I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. >> >> Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? >> >> Which board do I order and what is the best source? >> >> Many thanks, >> Michael >> >> >> >> >> >> Michael Morningstar >> >> Morningstar Electric >> PO Box 1494 >> Mount Shasta, California 96067 >> 530-921-0560 >> CSLB 949635 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Tue Sep 14 17:47:42 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 21:47:42 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> <4958E961-7EDE-4CC8-883D-67187D0A0C23@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Michael This is where a direct conversation is good I tried to call but could not connect. I thought you were using the AGS program on the Mate3S. If you are in the set up in the AGS you can point it at the Radian relay Or the Radian 12 volt aux If you want you can also point it to the port containing the FNDC Of course you will have to wire it to the proper source When your customer want to start the gen Press the Gen button on the Mate3S select ON The FNDC rely will close and the gen should start Select Off The relay will open Gen should stop Select Auto And the preset run conditions in the AGS will be valid. I hope this helps. Take Care From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Michael Morningstar Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 2:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I did not check whether or not the 12v relay was functional. I think I see where you are going. If the 12V relay isn’t working also, then the issue is elsewhere? Is that correct? I did look into using the FNDC relay, however it appears that it’s control is through the FNDC menu. Things are so simple when all my client has to do to control the generator is push the GEN button and choose a mode. Searching for the FNDC menu adds a layer of complexity. However, What I’m seeing is that the board that the relay is on is part of a stack boards that costs 2K. So, it sounds like my options are to check to see if the 12v relay functions and then use that to drive a relay, or use the FNDC relay, or spend 2k for the board stack. Michael On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Jay > wrote: There are two relays on that board, one dry one 12v. Aux output And Aux relay Do both not work? Jay On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:55 AM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: Wrenches, I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? Which board do I order and what is the best source? Many thanks, Michael Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 [cid:image001.gif at 01D7A976.A4D92BD0] This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: image001.gif URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 18:59:23 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 18:59:23 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> Message-ID: You may have alteady checked this but make sure AGS is enabled. I had that problem just this morning and after checking continuity of the wires again noticed that AGS was disabled. John Blittersdorf On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 1:55 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: > Wrenches, > > I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay > responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and > updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, > the relay does not close. > > Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? > > Which board do I order and what is the best source? > > Many thanks, > Michael > > > > > > *Michael **Morningstar* > > * Morningstar Electric* > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 22:39:58 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:39:58 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73739110-861B-4F5F-A011-E081914E4E06@gmail.com> All good tips. I will make sure AGS is enabled. Otherwise turn over generator starting to the FNDC. Thanks Everyone! > On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:59 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote: > > You may have alteady checked this but make sure AGS is enabled. I had that problem just this morning and after checking continuity of the wires again noticed that AGS was disabled. > > John Blittersdorf > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 1:55 PM Michael Morningstar > wrote: > Wrenches, > > I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. > > Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? > > Which board do I order and what is the best source? > > Many thanks, > Michael > > > > > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 14 20:56:54 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:56:54 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: <8149D237-1C54-416F-A62D-779772FBB9B9@gmail.com> References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> <8149D237-1C54-416F-A62D-779772FBB9B9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Friends: A couple of years ago we installed an all sealed Outback FX system. All of the FX inverters were equipped with Turbo fans which connect to the relay in the inverters so those were not available for generator starting. A senior Outback tech support person (one who has been with Outback for a long time) told me the relay in the FNDC was not reliable. Instead it was suggested that I use the relay in an Outback Extreme charge controller that was part of the system. I never tried the relay in the FNDC so I don’t have first-hand knowledge if the relay is reliable or not. Can anyone confirm or debunk this assertion? Remember the Extreme ? It was the precursor to the FlexMax 100. It is discontinued. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Morningstar *Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2021 11:16 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay Actually I’m using the 12V relay to activate a battery vent fan. For generator starting, I’m using the dry contact relay for two-wire start. I have the circuit protected by a 2amp fast acting fuse. Fuse is good. On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Tuss, Lones wrote: Hi Michael It sound like you are using the 12 volt aux out on the radian to activate a separate relay. If so disconnect the relay then check and see if the 12 aux attempts to go high (12v dc). If it does it may be a relay issue. The Radian does have an on board relay you could use that instead of a discrete relay. In AGS on the Mate3(s) just select Relay. I hope this helps sir. Take Care *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *Michael Morningstar *Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2021 10:55 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Wrenches, I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? Which board do I order and what is the best source? Many thanks, Michael *Michael Morningstar* *Morningstar Electric* PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org *Michael Morningstar* *Morningstar Electric* PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 17:23:37 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:23:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> <4958E961-7EDE-4CC8-883D-67187D0A0C23@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Michael, It was for 2 reasons. If both relays are bad then yes the board needs replacing. But also its easy to work in the radian to add a 12v relay cube to give you the dry contact you need. Vs going into the back of the FNDC. And I don’t know what anyone else has heard but OB tech support told me years ago not to use the FNDC relay for AGS. I had been using it for AGS and was having some intermittent issues. Changed it to the inverter and didn’t have any more issues. Here is the relay that you need to make it dry contact. https://www.allelectronics.com/item/rly-351/12vdc-spdt-40a-automotive-relay/1.html the wiring socket is on the same page. I prefer using this method as this relay is really cheap and easy to replace and very reliable. jay > On Sep 14, 2021, at 3:00 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote: > > I did not check whether or not the 12v relay was functional. > I think I see where you are going. If the 12V relay isn’t working also, then the issue is elsewhere? Is that correct? > > I did look into using the FNDC relay, however it appears that it’s control is through the FNDC menu. Things are so simple when all my client has to do to control the generator is push the GEN button and choose a mode. Searching for the FNDC menu adds a layer of complexity. > However, > What I’m seeing is that the board that the relay is on is part of a stack boards that costs 2K. So, it sounds like my options are to check to see if the 12v relay functions and then use that to drive a relay, or use the FNDC relay, or spend 2k for the board stack. > > Michael > >> On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Jay > wrote: >> >> There are two relays on that board, one dry one 12v. >> >> Aux output >> And >> Aux relay >> >> Do both not work? >> >> Jay >> >>> On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:55 AM, Michael Morningstar > wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate 3S, the relay does not close. >>> >>> Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? >>> >>> Which board do I order and what is the best source? >>> >>> Many thanks, >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael Morningstar >>> >>> Morningstar Electric >>> PO Box 1494 >>> Mount Shasta, California 96067 >>> 530-921-0560 >>> CSLB 949635 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > > > Michael Morningstar > > Morningstar Electric > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Wed Sep 15 01:51:37 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 22:51:37 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay In-Reply-To: References: <3C8F27E2-7BD3-4A0E-B783-15572B1A7814@gmail.com> <8149D237-1C54-416F-A62D-779772FBB9B9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <311a01a5-e744-ac20-7431-ab3dbd5dc4ba@coveoregon.com> William, Years ago we tried using the relay in the FNDC with a system of sealed Outback FX inverters.  After a few times call backs about the generator being left running long after it should have stopped, I discovered that the problem was indeed caused by the relay in the FNDC. That relay is a latching type and Outback sends the signal for it to change state only once; they don't check to see if it actually changed state (apparently the hardware wasn't set up to allow that); and they don't send a second signal to improve the chance of a successful operation. You know the screen in the Mate where they keep a tally of communication errors, not sure that is comm errors at unfortunate times are the cause or not, but I suspect it is. Maybe the relay in this FNDC was sluggish because in the garage temperatures could occasionally got lower than 0°C - the lower limit of the FNDC. Whatever the cause, we decided that the FNDC relay was not suitable for starting and stopping a generator. I ended up re-purposing the FX's external vent fan to control the generator (and fan) and never had any more trouble. The fan is rarely needed except while charging batteries with the generator, and the inverter has the ability to reduce its output if it is too hot. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 9/14/2021 5:56 PM, William Miller wrote: > > Friends: > > A couple of years ago we installed an all sealed Outback FX system.  > All of the FX inverters were equipped with Turbo fans which connect to > the relay in the inverters so those were not available for generator > starting.  A senior Outback tech support person (one who has been with > Outback for a long time) told me the relay in the FNDC was not > reliable. Instead it was suggested that I use the relay in an Outback > Extreme charge controller that was part of the system.  I never tried > the relay in the FNDC so I don’t have first-hand knowledge if the > relay is reliable or not.  Can anyone confirm or debunk this assertion? > > Remember the Extreme > ?  > It was the precursor to the FlexMax 100.  It is discontinued. > > William > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *Michael Morningstar > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2021 11:16 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay > > Actually I’m using the 12V relay to activate a battery vent fan. For > generator starting, I’m using the dry contact relay for two-wire > start. I have the circuit protected by a 2amp fast acting fuse. Fuse > is good. > > > > On Sep 14, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Tuss, Lones > wrote: > > Hi Michael > > It sound like you are using the 12 volt aux out on the radian to > activate a separate relay. > > If so disconnect the relay then check and see if the 12 aux attempts > to go high (12v dc). > > If it does it may be a relay issue. > > The Radian does have an on board relay you could use that instead of a > discrete relay. > > In AGS on the Mate3(s) just select Relay. > > I hope this helps sir. > > Take Care > > *From:*RE-wrenches >*On Behalf > Of*Michael Morningstar > *Sent:*Tuesday, September 14, 2021 10:55 AM > *To:*RE-wrenches > > *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Radian Generator Relay > > > > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and > know the content is safe. > > Wrenches, > > I’ve got a Radian 8048/Mate 3S that no longer is activating the relay > responsible for generator starting. I’ve power cycled everything and > updated firmware. When I attempt to start the generator via the Mate > 3S, the relay does not close. > > Any suggestions before I look into replacing the relay/board? > > Which board do I order and what is the best source? > > Many thanks, > > Michael > > *Michael Morningstar* > > ** > > /Morningstar Electric/ > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 949635 > >    > > > > This email and any attachments may contain confidential information > that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this > email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your > system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those > of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or > its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct > transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally > binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully > signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any > attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss > or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended > recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in > the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the > environment before printing. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > *Michael Morningstar* > > **/Morningstar Electric/ > > PO Box 1494 > > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > > 530-921-0560 > > CSLB 949635 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Sep 16 11:47:49 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:47:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transformerless inverter conversion Message-ID: Friends: Thanks to all of you for your valuable input on the repowering project I am researching. I am learning a lot in the process and generating more questions as I proceed. Here is are questions that came up, and if any of you have insight, I would love to hear it: 1. Array OCPD/disconnecting. The existing array has fuses in the positive leads only. If we were to upgrade to transformerless inverters, will we be required to install OCPD in the negative leads as well? (In researching this I came upon this entry in 2017 NEC 690.9: *Informational Note: Due to improved ground-fault protection required in PV systems by 690.41(B), a single overcurrent protective device in either the positive or negative conductors of a PV system in combination with this ground-fault protection provides adequate overcurrent protection.*) *2. *In the 2014 NEC when installing Ungrounded PV systems, the following requirement appeared in 690.35: *Conductors listed and identified as PV wire installed as exposed, single conductors…* What happened to 690.35, and can I now use USE-2 on transformerless inverter installations? Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Sep 16 14:58:07 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:58:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transformerless inverter conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi William - I think this article by Bill Brooks directly answers both of your questions: https://www.southportland.org/files/8814/8156/0204/NEC_2017_Updates_for_PV_Systems___SolarPro_Magazine.pdf -August On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 9:19 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > > > Thanks to all of you for your valuable input on the repowering project I > am researching. I am learning a lot in the process and generating more > questions as I proceed. Here is are questions that came up, and if any of > you have insight, I would love to hear it: > > > > 1. Array OCPD/disconnecting. The existing array has fuses in the > positive leads only. If we were to upgrade to transformerless inverters, > will we be required to install OCPD in the negative leads as well? (In > researching this I came upon this entry in 2017 NEC 690.9: *Informational > Note: Due to improved ground-fault protection required in PV systems by > 690.41(B), a single overcurrent protective device in either the positive or > negative conductors of a PV system in combination with this ground-fault > protection provides adequate overcurrent protection.*) > > *2. *In the 2014 NEC when installing Ungrounded PV systems, the > following requirement appeared in 690.35: *Conductors listed and > identified as PV wire installed as exposed, single conductors…* What > happened to 690.35, and can I now use USE-2 on transformerless inverter > installations? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Sep 16 15:49:01 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 12:49:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV scum from Dixie Fire In-Reply-To: References: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> <9AE5E067-944C-4823-9958-1CB118C9F96D@solarspecialtygroup.com> Message-ID: Dearest wrenches,             Trying to get back in the saddle here in the Plumas Natl. Forest...We are just coming out of 7-8 weeks of threat of fire from the Dixie fire in NE CA....has been life changing, three of our communities were lost or severely impacted.             But many of my customers did the old "sprinkler on the roof" trick and left for evacuation so much ash and (well)water on panels for weeks at a time.  Depending on a variety of factors some folks have not been able to see the PVs clean up with a simple water spray and I've been very hesitant to recommend anything like soap, soft brushing etc.  Will the eventual several inches of rain remove ash and minerals left from well water?, its pretty backed on.             I'm looking for proven suggestions and/or experiences.  No structure loss here but fire took part of our trees/property.  Of course some of the system arrays are easy access and some are on two story roofs. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Taylorsville, CA -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:08:07 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:08:07 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV scum from Dixie Fire In-Reply-To: References: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> <9AE5E067-944C-4823-9958-1CB118C9F96D@solarspecialtygroup.com> Message-ID: Bill; Similar situation in my area (CO) from the big fire that went through here last fall. Some had enough water onsite for the sprinkler trick, but the biggest issue was thick coats of pink fire retardant from the slurry bombers. The only thing I could find that worked on both the ash/mineral scum and the pink slurry was.....dish soap and soft scrub brush. And LOTS of brushing, 3-4 times over all my PV arrays. I was hesitant to try anything stronger, like Simple Green, and tried to get info on that and other chemicals from a couple PV module manufacturers, with no success. Good luck! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 1:49 PM Bill Battagin wrote: > Dearest wrenches, > > Trying to get back in the saddle here in the Plumas Natl. > Forest...We are just coming out of 7-8 weeks of threat of fire from the > Dixie fire in NE CA....has been life changing, three of our communities > were lost or severely impacted. > > But many of my customers did the old "sprinkler on the > roof" trick and left for evacuation so much ash and (well)water on > panels for weeks at a time. Depending on a variety of factors some > folks have not been able to see the PVs clean up with a simple water > spray and I've been very hesitant to recommend anything like soap, soft > brushing etc. Will the eventual several inches of rain remove ash and > minerals left from well water?, its pretty backed on. > > I'm looking for proven suggestions and/or experiences. No > structure loss here but fire took part of our trees/property. Of course > some of the system arrays are easy access and some are on two story roofs. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Taylorsville, CA > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Sep 16 16:20:09 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:20:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV scum from Dixie Fire In-Reply-To: References: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> <9AE5E067-944C-4823-9958-1CB118C9F96D@solarspecialtygroup.com> Message-ID: <39f2b643-050a-adfb-8004-a1737509e119@psln.com> Dan,             I remember reading some REC material regarding cleaning panels and they we very hesitant about anything brush or sponge-like to clean their PVs, though I too, for my own arrays have used a car-washing brush (very fine and soft) to carefully remove scum.  It seems it may be the only method for getting off hard-core crud. Bill On 9/16/2021 1:08 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Bill; Similar situation in my area (CO) from the big fire that went > through here last fall. Some had enough water onsite for the sprinkler > trick, but the biggest issue was thick coats of pink fire retardant > from the slurry bombers. > The only thing I could find that worked on both the ash/mineral scum > and the pink slurry was.....dish soap and soft scrub brush. And LOTS > of brushing, 3-4 times over all my PV arrays. I was hesitant to try > anything stronger, like Simple Green, and tried to get info on that > and other chemicals from a couple PV module manufacturers, with no > success. > Good luck! > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > d anbob88 at gmail.com > > 970-672-4342 > > > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 1:49 PM Bill Battagin > wrote: > > Dearest wrenches, > >              Trying to get back in the saddle here in the Plumas > Natl. > Forest...We are just coming out of 7-8 weeks of threat of fire > from the > Dixie fire in NE CA....has been life changing, three of our > communities > were lost or severely impacted. > >              But many of my customers did the old "sprinkler on the > roof" trick and left for evacuation so much ash and (well)water on > panels for weeks at a time.  Depending on a variety of factors some > folks have not been able to see the PVs clean up with a simple water > spray and I've been very hesitant to recommend anything like soap, > soft > brushing etc.  Will the eventual several inches of rain remove ash > and > minerals left from well water?, its pretty backed on. > >              I'm looking for proven suggestions and/or > experiences.  No > structure loss here but fire took part of our trees/property.  Of > course > some of the system arrays are easy access and some are on two > story roofs. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Taylorsville, CA > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Sep 16 18:04:00 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 15:04:00 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV scum from Dixie Fire In-Reply-To: <39f2b643-050a-adfb-8004-a1737509e119@psln.com> References: <001401d79521$7cc40700$764c1500$@solarwork.com> <9AE5E067-944C-4823-9958-1CB118C9F96D@solarspecialtygroup.com> <39f2b643-050a-adfb-8004-a1737509e119@psln.com> Message-ID: Never had any problem with soap and water in the 3 fires that went over us. Obviously you want to not do anything in the sun. It is just tempered glass so as long as the cleaner is compatible, I would not be worried about something stronger if soap did not work. Still alot of fire season left. Two weeks after the last rain is the new guide for fire season. Good Luck! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 13:20:09 -0700, Bill Battagin wrote: Dan, I remember reading some REC material regarding cleaning panels and they we very hesitant about anything brush or sponge-like to clean their PVs, though I too, for my own arrays have used a car-washing brush (very fine and soft) to carefully remove scum. It seems it may be the only method for getting off hard-core crud. Bill On 9/16/2021 1:08 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Bill; Similar situation in my area (CO) from the big fire that went through here last fall. Some had enough water onsite for the sprinkler trick, but the biggest issue was thick coats of pink fire retardant from the slurry bombers. The only thing I could find that worked on both the ash/mineral scum and the pink slurry was.....dish soap and soft scrub brush. And LOTS of brushing, 3-4 times over all my PV arrays. I was hesitant to try anything stronger, like Simple Green, and tried to get info on that and other chemicals from a couple PV module manufacturers, with no success. Good luck! Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d [3]anbob88 at gmail.com [4] 970-672-4342 On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 1:49 PM Bill Battagin wrote: Dearest wrenches, Trying to get back in the saddle here in the Plumas Natl. Forest...We are just coming out of 7-8 weeks of threat of fire from the Dixie fire in NE CA....has been life changing, three of our communities were lost or severely impacted. But many of my customers did the old "sprinkler on the roof" trick and left for evacuation so much ash and (well)water on panels for weeks at a time. Depending on a variety of factors some folks have not been able to see the PVs clean up with a simple water spray and I've been very hesitant to recommend anything like soap, soft brushing etc. Will the eventual several inches of rain remove ash and minerals left from well water?, its pretty backed on. I'm looking for proven suggestions and/or experiences. No structure loss here but fire took part of our trees/property. Of course some of the system arrays are easy access and some are on two story roofs. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Taylorsville, CA _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [6] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] List rules height: 29px;" src="https://webmail.sti.net/tuxedo/?_task=mail&_action=display-attachment&_file=rcmfile11631829514011576100" alt="" width="46" height="29" /> [13] Virus-free. www.avast.com [14] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:dan.fink at greendustrialtraining.com [4] mailto:anbob88 at gmail.com [5] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [6] http://re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [14] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 10:19:30 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:19:30 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules Message-ID: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> Hi all I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing array of 327 sunpower modules. 2 questions. Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful And 2 what makes a good substitute? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 17 11:14:34 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:14:34 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> References: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> Message-ID: The secondary market was flooded with the SP 327's are few years back. They are incredible with their output in hot climates, small footprint, and 25 year product and power warranty. A equal sized and same warranties is the the Panasonic HIT 330W Solar Panel 96 Cell VBHN330SA17 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:19:30 -0600, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing > array of 327 sunpower modules. > > 2 questions. > > Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful > > And 2 what makes a good substitute? > > Thanks > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 17 12:17:01 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:17:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> References: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> Message-ID: SunPower still sells 327s to authorized dealers. August On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing > array of 327 sunpower modules. > > 2 questions. > > Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful > > And 2 what makes a good substitute? > > Thanks > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 12:19:01 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:19:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: References: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> Message-ID: That may be true but no one is making inverters that work with sunpower anymore and that is a big problem Jerry On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:17 AM August Goers wrote: > SunPower still sells 327s to authorized dealers. > > August > > > > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jay wrote: > >> Hi all >> >> I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing >> array of 327 sunpower modules. >> >> 2 questions. >> >> Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful >> >> And 2 what makes a good substitute? >> >> Thanks >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 17 12:24:03 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:24:03 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: References: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> Message-ID: Why is that Jerry? Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:19:01 -0700, Jerry Shafer wrote: That may be true but no one is making inverters that work with sunpower anymore and that is a big problem Jerry On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:17 AM August Goers wrote: SunPower still sells 327s to authorized dealers. August On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jay wrote: Hi all I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing array of 327 sunpower modules. 2 questions. Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful And 2 what makes a good substitute? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [5] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [6] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [7] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [8] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [10] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [11] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [12] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] mailto:august at luminalt.com [4] mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com [5] http://re-wrenches.org [6] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [8] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [9] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [10] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [11] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [12] http://re-wrenches.org [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [15] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [16] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [17] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Fri Sep 17 12:43:19 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 06:43:19 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> References: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, I’d suggest the SPR 345, if you can find three of ‘em, as a reasonable substitute. marco On Friday, September 17, 2021, Jay wrote: > Hi all > > I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing > array of 327 sunpower modules. > > 2 questions. > > Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful > > And 2 what makes a good substitute? > > Thanks > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 12:25:43 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:25:43 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: <9D14B9F6-6E7D-4062-8254-8E963BD6B406@gmail.com> References: <9D14B9F6-6E7D-4062-8254-8E963BD6B406@gmail.com> Message-ID: Let me try it this way. Sunpower isn’t helping, The local Dealer won’t even sell the customer modules, says go to eBay If there is a sunpower dealer who will sell/ship 3 to my client please contact me off site. Thanks Jay > On Sep 17, 2021, at 10:21 AM, Jay wrote: > >  > Hi Jerry > > I’m adding to an existing sunpower system > > Jay > >>> On Sep 17, 2021, at 10:19 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> >>  >> That may be true but no one is making inverters that work with sunpower anymore and that is a big problem >> Jerry >> >>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:17 AM August Goers wrote: >>> SunPower still sells 327s to authorized dealers. >>> >>> August >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jay wrote: >>>> Hi all >>>> >>>> I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing array of 327 sunpower modules. >>>> >>>> 2 questions. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful >>>> >>>> And 2 what makes a good substitute? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Peltz power. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 12:21:57 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:21:57 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D14B9F6-6E7D-4062-8254-8E963BD6B406@gmail.com> Hi Jerry I’m adding to an existing sunpower system Jay > On Sep 17, 2021, at 10:19 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > >  > That may be true but no one is making inverters that work with sunpower anymore and that is a big problem > Jerry > >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:17 AM August Goers wrote: >> SunPower still sells 327s to authorized dealers. >> >> August >> >> >> >> >>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jay wrote: >>> Hi all >>> >>> I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing array of 327 sunpower modules. >>> >>> 2 questions. >>> >>> Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful >>> >>> And 2 what makes a good substitute? >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Fri Sep 17 13:02:07 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:02:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: References: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jerry - I'm guessing you're talking about SunPower's legacy modules that require positive grounding. 327s and 345s (as Marco recommended) shouldn't have any positive grounding requirements, so you should be able to use whatever inverter you'd like as long as the voltage tracking aspects are within spec. Here's a little snip out of SunPower publicly available safety installation manual: [image: image.png] https://us.sunpower.com/sites/default/files/sunpower-solar-panels-safety-installation-guide.pdf Best, August On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 9:19 AM Jerry Shafer wrote: > That may be true but no one is making inverters that work with sunpower > anymore and that is a big problem > Jerry > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:17 AM August Goers wrote: > >> SunPower still sells 327s to authorized dealers. >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his >>> existing array of 327 sunpower modules. >>> >>> 2 questions. >>> >>> Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful >>> >>> And 2 what makes a good substitute? >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 46027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Fri Sep 17 16:01:31 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:01:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: References: <8D50C932-824E-43EB-84B4-31B1ED995091@gmail.com> Message-ID: Been a long time since I saw positive ground 327's. Really long! Thanks August! Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:02:07 -0700, August Goers wrote: Hi Jerry - I'm guessing you're talking about SunPower's legacy modules that require positive grounding. 327s and 345s (as Marco recommended) shouldn't have any positive grounding requirements, so you should be able to use whatever inverter you'd like as long as the voltage tracking aspects are within spec. Here's a little snip out of SunPower publicly available safety installation manual: That may be true but no one is making inverters that work with sunpower anymore and that is a big problem Jerry On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:17 AM August Goers wrote: SunPower still sells 327s to authorized dealers. August On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jay wrote: Hi all I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his existing array of 327 sunpower modules. 2 questions. Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful And 2 what makes a good substitute? Thanks Jay Peltz power. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [7] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [9] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [10] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [11] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [12] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [13] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [14] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [15] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [17] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [18] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [19] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [20] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [21] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [22] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [23] There are two list archives for searching. 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Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 46027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 16:17:35 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:17:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sun power 327 modules In-Reply-To: <9D14B9F6-6E7D-4062-8254-8E963BD6B406@gmail.com> References: <9D14B9F6-6E7D-4062-8254-8E963BD6B406@gmail.com> Message-ID: Understand, its getting harder to find inverters that will work with the modules upon the inverter demize On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 10:01 AM Jay wrote: > Hi Jerry > > I’m adding to an existing sunpower system > > Jay > > On Sep 17, 2021, at 10:19 AM, Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >  > That may be true but no one is making inverters that work with sunpower > anymore and that is a big problem > Jerry > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 9:17 AM August Goers wrote: > >> SunPower still sells 327s to authorized dealers. >> >> August >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 7:54 AM Jay wrote: >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I have a customer wanting to add 3 x 327 sunpower modules to his >>> existing array of 327 sunpower modules. >>> >>> 2 questions. >>> >>> Does anyone know where I could find 3, yeah doubtful >>> >>> And 2 what makes a good substitute? >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evolvedsolar at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 09:50:46 2021 From: evolvedsolar at gmail.com (Al Frishman) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 09:50:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Central Hudson Meter Pans? Message-ID: <18819556-E07D-410F-9856-8C3D616EC868@gmail.com> Hey Wrenchers, I have a client that is installing a new electric service for a new house and they would like to be ready to add Solar down the road. Anyone know of a Meter Pan rated 200A, 120/240V single phase that has (2) sets of lugs on the load side of the meter approved by Central Hudson? My thought is that the Solar can be tapped onto the extra set of load side lugs in the meter that will make for an easy grid connection. The site plan is to have a Ground mount North of the house where the service meter and main disconnect to the house will be located. Appreciate thoughts and ideas. Al Frishman EvolvedSolar (917) 699-6641 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 12:51:36 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 09:51:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Central Hudson Meter Pans? In-Reply-To: <18819556-E07D-410F-9856-8C3D616EC868@gmail.com> References: <18819556-E07D-410F-9856-8C3D616EC868@gmail.com> Message-ID: Buying new you have options and the ability to build in a line side tap with its own breaker or fusible disco or get a solar ready panel, this has a 225 amp main bus so you push back something like 60 plus amps right there. On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 7:00 AM Al Frishman wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > I have a client that is installing a new electric service for a new house > and they would like to be ready to add Solar down the road. Anyone know > of a Meter Pan rated 200A, 120/240V single phase that has (2) sets of lugs > on the load side of the meter approved by Central Hudson? My thought is > that the Solar can be tapped onto the extra set of load side lugs in the > meter that will make for an easy grid connection. The site plan is to > have a Ground mount North of the house where the service meter and main > disconnect to the house will be located. > > Appreciate thoughts and ideas. > > > > *Al Frishman* > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Mon Sep 20 08:02:02 2021 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 08:02:02 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Central Hudson Meter Pans? In-Reply-To: <18819556-E07D-410F-9856-8C3D616EC868@gmail.com> References: <18819556-E07D-410F-9856-8C3D616EC868@gmail.com> Message-ID: Milbank makes a kit that will add a second set of lugs to their meter sockets. Not sure if it's approved by your utility, you should check with them and see what they allow. On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 9:50 AM Al Frishman wrote: > Hey Wrenchers, > I have a client that is installing a new electric service for a new house > and they would like to be ready to add Solar down the road. Anyone know > of a Meter Pan rated 200A, 120/240V single phase that has (2) sets of lugs > on the load side of the meter approved by Central Hudson? My thought is > that the Solar can be tapped onto the extra set of load side lugs in the > meter that will make for an easy grid connection. The site plan is to > have a Ground mount North of the house where the service meter and main > disconnect to the house will be located. > > Appreciate thoughts and ideas. > > > > *Al Frishman* > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Mon Sep 20 09:33:13 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 09:33:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Central Hudson Meter Pans? In-Reply-To: References: <18819556-E07D-410F-9856-8C3D616EC868@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52630c16-a420-a63e-c85f-277b4c837632@entech-engineering.com> Milbank is what what we've used.  There is no reason for CH to not have them on their approved list, but as said, confirm.  Chris On 9/20/2021 8:02 AM, Will White wrote: > Milbank makes a kit that will add a second set of lugs to their meter > sockets. Not sure if it's approved by your utility, you should check > with them and see what they allow. > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 9:50 AM Al Frishman > wrote: > > Hey Wrenchers, > I have a client that is installing a new electric service for a > new house and they would like to be ready to add Solar down the > road.     Anyone know of a Meter Pan rated 200A, 120/240V single > phase that has (2) sets of lugs on the load side of the meter > approved by Central Hudson?   My thought is that the Solar can be > tapped onto the extra set of load side lugs in the meter that will > make for an easy grid connection.    The site plan is to have a > Ground mount North of the house where the service meter and main > disconnect to the house will be located. > > Appreciate thoughts and ideas. > > > > /Al Frishman/ > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vincentj at cobaltpower.com Mon Sep 20 14:39:40 2021 From: vincentj at cobaltpower.com (Vincent Jolissaint) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:39:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=8BCentral_Hudson_Meter_Pans=3F_=28?= =?utf-8?q?Al_Frishman=29?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Al, One good CSED is the Square D SC3042M200PS. It has a factory line side tap location available. *With Regard,* *Vince Jolissaint* *Cobalt Power Systems Inc. |* *Director of CAD Services*2557 Wyandotte St. | Mountain View CA 94043 Office: 650.938.9574 | E-Mail Vincentj at cobaltpower.com On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 2:38 PM wrote: > Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to > re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > re-wrenches-request at lists.re-wrenches.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > re-wrenches-owner at lists.re-wrenches.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." > > > When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the > Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines > from the quoted message. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Central Hudson Meter Pans? (Al Frishman) > 2. Re: Central Hudson Meter Pans? (Jerry Shafer) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 09:50:46 -0400 > From: Al Frishman > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Central Hudson Meter Pans? > Message-ID: <18819556-E07D-410F-9856-8C3D616EC868 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hey Wrenchers, > I have a client that is installing a new electric service for a new house > and they would like to be ready to add Solar down the road. Anyone know > of a Meter Pan rated 200A, 120/240V single phase that has (2) sets of lugs > on the load side of the meter approved by Central Hudson? My thought is > that the Solar can be tapped onto the extra set of load side lugs in the > meter that will make for an easy grid connection. The site plan is to > have a Ground mount North of the house where the service meter and main > disconnect to the house will be located. > > Appreciate thoughts and ideas. > > > > Al Frishman > EvolvedSolar > (917) 699-6641 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 21 08:19:48 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 08:19:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy CR2032 battery Message-ID: Does anyone know the purpose of this battery on the circuit board. I have never had to change on or inquire what it does. I'm just curious. Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From benn at skyfireenergy.com Tue Sep 21 17:06:18 2021 From: benn at skyfireenergy.com (Benn Kilburn) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:06:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy CR2032 battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SolarEdge uses the same battery in their inverters, and same, they’ve never been an issue. I’d assume it saves the date and perhaps other settings if/when there is no energy source connected to it. On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 6:20 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Does anyone know the purpose of this battery on the circuit board. I have > never had to change on or inquire what it does. I'm just curious. > > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Benn Kilburn SkyFire Energy 780-906-7807 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Tue Sep 21 17:10:18 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 14:10:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy CR2032 battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Usually, they are what keep the CMOS powered up... They are supposed to have only a 5-year life but tend to last longer than that. They are not generally fun to change, I've broken my share on the outback mates... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 2:06 PM Benn Kilburn wrote: > SolarEdge uses the same battery in their inverters, and same, they’ve > never been an issue. > I’d assume it saves the date and perhaps other settings if/when there is > no energy source connected to it. > > On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 6:20 AM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Does anyone know the purpose of this battery on the circuit board. I have >> never had to change on or inquire what it does. I'm just curious. >> >> Jason >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- > Benn Kilburn > SkyFire Energy > 780-906-7807 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Tue Sep 21 17:14:19 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:14:19 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy CR2032 battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many batteries on circuit boards are for the Real-Time Clock (RTC) in the event that the main power source is absent. I believe that’s the case for the Envoy. rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Check, Virginia 24072 O: 540.235.3095 M: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 > On Sep 21, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > >  > Usually, they are what keep the CMOS powered up... They are supposed to have only a 5-year life but tend to last longer than that. They are not generally fun to change, I've broken my share on the outback mates... > > > > Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager > t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 > f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com > > > CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. > > >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 2:06 PM Benn Kilburn wrote: >> SolarEdge uses the same battery in their inverters, and same, they’ve never been an issue. >> I’d assume it saves the date and perhaps other settings if/when there is no energy source connected to it. >> >>> On Tue, Sep 21, 2021 at 6:20 AM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> Does anyone know the purpose of this battery on the circuit board. I have never had to change on or inquire what it does. I'm just curious. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> -- >> Benn Kilburn >> SkyFire Energy >> 780-906-7807 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Mon Sep 20 16:05:44 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larrycrutcher) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:05:44 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing Sq-D breakers Message-ID: Having great difficulty sourcing 2 pole quad Square-D breakers, specifically a HOMT230230. Does anyone know a supplier that may have these? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Sep 21 18:04:38 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:04:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing Sq-D breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Homeline breakers are in far shorter supply than QO around here. I have actually bought several of both from Amazon of all places, but a quad tandem could be tough. I had a recent experience with Gordon Electric Supply that was exceptional. You might try them. Jason On Tue, Sep 21, 2021, 5:49 PM larrycrutcher wrote: > Having great difficulty sourcing 2 pole quad Square-D breakers, > specifically a HOMT230230. Does anyone know a supplier that may have these? > > Thank you, > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 18:21:19 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:21:19 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sourcing Sq-D breakers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F3913A5-5A21-480F-B597-32824BA3C5E9@gmail.com> I’ve had good luck with Gordon supply I don’t know if they have this part. https://www.gordonelectricsupply.com/p/Square-D-Homt230230-Miniature-Ckt-Brkr/6574005?gclid=CjwKCAjwhaaKBhBcEiwA8acsHH88h_-DQg6uL7N2TTZixZFnM3g8E4LQ3M8xmCqUDXv4HYBF_05JlBoCV5QQAvD_BwE Jay Peltz power > On Sep 21, 2021, at 3:49 PM, larrycrutcher wrote: > > HOMT230230 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Sep 21 20:55:01 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:55:01 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with XW system Message-ID: <323c0efc0d058d8fe1a5708a0b92f269@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I have installed only a few Xantrex XW systems in my career and it has been a long time since the last one. I’ve got one with a problem and I need help, please! I installed a replacement set of Deka flooded, 2 volt, steel jacketed batteries about a year ago. The batteries are not performing well. The customer reports low voltage alarms and generator run time when with the previous batteries this would not happen. Coincidentally I installed an identical set of batteries on an Outback system in the same area at about the same time. After a few hiccups (two premature cell failures and some adjustments in charging parameters) the batteries in the Outback system are performing well. The charge parameters for the two systems are identical. The main difference is the XW system is set to terminate charge based on charge taper and the Outback, without an FNDC, terminates charge based on elapsed time. According to the manual, one is supposed to be able to set the battery AH capacity to zero to allow the absorption cycle to terminate based on max charge time. We would like to experiment with this. However our system will allow only a minimum setting of 50 AH. The firmware version is 1.00. Also, I find it odd that the XW system will allow equalization for only one hour, with no option to change this duration. Am I understanding this correctly? Has anyone experienced any of the occurrences I have cited above? Do I need to upgrade the firmware? The last time I upgraded firmware it took me all day due to how lame the process is. I have the original dongle. Is that sufficient? Any words of advice on the process? Thanks in advance. I hope I am not asking for more help on this forum than is appropriate… William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Wed Sep 22 10:46:06 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:46:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Problems with XW system In-Reply-To: <323c0efc0d058d8fe1a5708a0b92f269@mail.gmail.com> References: <323c0efc0d058d8fe1a5708a0b92f269@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Easy problems to solve! Glad to help! below... On Tue, 21 Sep 2021 17:55:01 -0700, William Miller wrote: Friends: I have installed only a few Xantrex XW systems in my career and it has been a long time since the last one. I've got one with a problem and I need help, please! I installed a replacement set of Deka flooded, 2 volt, steel jacketed batteries about a year ago. The batteries are not performing well. The customer reports low voltage alarms and generator run time when with the previous batteries this would not happen. Coincidentally I installed an identical set of batteries on an Outback system in the same area at about the same time. After a few hiccups (two premature cell failures and some adjustments in charging parameters) the batteries in the Outback system are performing well. The charge parameters for the two systems are identical. The main difference is the XW system is set to terminate charge based on charge taper and the Outback, without an FNDC, terminates charge based on elapsed time. All the way back to Trace, Xantrex and Schneider terminate at 2% of programmed battery capacity. The programming of capacity is the tool to adjust for longer absorb, if needed. According to the manual, one is supposed to be able to set the battery AH capacity to zero to allow the absorption cycle to terminate based on max charge time. We would like to experiment with this. However our system will allow only a minimum setting of 50 AH. The firmware version is 1.00. 50 will be fine set it there and you will get the full absorb time you program. If this is a grey box XW6048, it had it's last firmware at end of support 10+ years back and was 1.07 Firmware is at https://solar.schneider-electric.com/products/discontinued-products/ Also, I find it odd that the XW system will allow equalization for only one hour, with no option to change this duration. Am I understanding this correctly? This issue, I was told was from a lawsuit battery fire. The workaround if you want longer absorb time is program float for the EQ voltage and remember to set it back when you are through! Most people only do a 1 hour EQ or they do more of them. Either way it works fine. The advantage to programming float to EQ is all mppts will run the EQ. Has anyone experienced any of the occurrences I have cited above? Do I need to upgrade the firmware? The last time I upgraded firmware it took me all day due to how lame the process is. I have the original dongle. Is that sufficient? Any words of advice on the process? I do not think it is lame, you should practice it if you never do this (make sure drivers are good for your laptop) before you go to the site. There are 3 ways to do firmware and each is pretty easy, to me. Combox, Gateway, and configuration tool. Good Luck! Thanks in advance. I hope I am not asking for more help on this forum than is appropriate... William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com [1] CA Lic. 773985 Links: ------ [1] http://www.millersolar.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.welch at re-wrenches.org Mon Sep 27 18:00:17 2021 From: michael.welch at re-wrenches.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:00:17 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Admin Post, do not respond on list Message-ID: <1632780125046.5d143b276cf55b63@re-wrenches.org> Hi there Wrenches. Please do not respond to this on the list. Email me directly, off-list, if you have something to add. It's been a few days since I've received any Wrench list emails. It worries me when that happens, so I'm taking a moment to send this "test" message, which also contains info on what we consider "off topic." Thanks for all, and be safe out there. - - - - - - - - Just a reminder to not post off topic items. 1. Don't post jokes, thanks, apologies, agreements, news items, chit-chat, events, politics, marketing, virus info, leads, jobs, items for sale, or anything else that is off-topic. 2. Don't respond on-list to others' off topic posts. 3. Don't post items that are available for sale, either from you or from others. 3a. From time to time people post items that they need but are having problems locating (like an older model PV module to replace a broken one), but these requests should be responded to off-list. And these requests should state within them, something like: "if you have one, please contact me off list." 4. If you have a message that is intended for individuals who are on the list, like "thanks" or "yes, I have one of those things you are looking for," don't send it to the whole list -- just send it to the individuals. 5. Do not post administrative inquiries, but rather send them to me off-list. 6. And finally, a reminder to never post leads or job openings of any kind on the list. Thank-you. [The RE-Wrenches listserver and other associated lists are managed by Michael Welch, through Redwood Alliance, a nonprofit energy-related environmental organization.] From dana at solarwork.com Tue Sep 28 10:52:03 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:52:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Soliciting for workers? Message-ID: <001a01d7b478$6781e440$3685acc0$@solarwork.com> Hey Michael - May I inquire as to possible installers on this conversation? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Sun Oct 3 16:11:07 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:11:07 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] issue on master/slave XW Pro 6848 Message-ID: G'day All, Apparently a new client that I picked up on an abandoned system attempted to EQ his batteries and he believes he accidentally put the master inverter into standby. This of course shut down his power to his home. The slave produced an F66 fault which is explained on page 39 of the operation manual. Now his issue is when he turns on both master and slave after about a minute or so all power goes off. He did try shutting off both 250A dc breakers as a type of reset but to no avail. The master will work fine as long as the slave is off. I'm thinking this is something stupid easy. I'm looking for some ideas on what to look for or try. Thanks, in advance, Christopher- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Sun Oct 3 17:27:20 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2021 14:27:20 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] issue on master/slave XW Pro 6848 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The easy one is that the slave somehow reverted back to the default as master. Look under events to see what happened. Events will have all faults and warnings. Also check the firmware as XWpro had major fixes for master/slave operation. Also the latest firmware has real time cloud readings on Insight as well as BMS controls for closed loop operation on 7 different LFP battery makes. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 3 Oct 2021 16:11:07 -0400, Chris Schaefer wrote: G'day All, Apparently a new client that I picked up on an abandoned system attempted to EQ his batteries and he believes he accidentally put the master inverter into standby. This of course shut down his power to his home. The slave produced an F66 fault which is explained on page 39 of the operation manual. Now his issue is when he turns on both master and slave after about a minute or so all power goes off. He did try shutting off both 250A dc breakers as a type of reset but to no avail. The master will work fine as long as the slave is off. I'm thinking this is something stupid easy. I'm looking for some ideas on what to look for or try. Thanks, in advance, Christopher- Chris Schaefer's [3] Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 _www.solarandwindfx.com [4] ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com [5]_ Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://webmail.sti.net/http:www.solarandwindfx.com [4] http://www.solarandwindfx.com [5] mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 6 07:08:45 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 07:08:45 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Eaton BR2xxB Message-ID: Enphase Encharge requires bolt down breakers for backfed battery circuits in the Engage Smart Switch. All ampacities below 60A require the model number with 'B' at the end to get the required fastener hole in the middle of the 2-pole breaker. 60-80A BR breakers all have the hole already without the 'B' designation. These seem to be hopelessly backordered under 60A. Does anyone have a source? I noticed that Enphase has their own part numbers for these. Maybe they have a stockpile of them somewhere. Any ideas? Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louis at woofenden.net Wed Oct 6 11:07:53 2021 From: louis at woofenden.net (Louis Woofenden) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 08:07:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Eaton BR2xxB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98241a10-613c-4d62-fead-d9e08385e570@woofenden.net> Hi Jason, I haven't tried ordered through Enphase's store recently, but in the past they have had those breakers available here: https://store.enphase.com/storefront/en-us/enpower-breakers. They are showing them in stock right now, but not sure if that's reality. A workaround I've tried is using BRH220 breakers (which are 22KAIC). At least some of them have a fastener hole for the hold-down kit. I don't think they are listed as allowable model numbers in the Enpower manual, however, depending on how particular your inspectors are. Best, Louis Woofenden Net Zero Solar Tucson, AZ Jason Szumlanski wrote on 10/6/21 4:08 AM: > Enphase Encharge requires bolt down breakers for backfed battery > circuits in the Engage Smart Switch. All ampacities below 60A require > the model number with 'B' at the end to get the required fastener hole > in the middle of the 2-pole breaker. 60-80A BR breakers all have the > hole already without the 'B' designation. > > These seem to be hopelessly backordered under 60A. Does anyone have a > source? I noticed that Enphase has their own part numbers for these. > Maybe they have a stockpile of them somewhere. Any ideas? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 6 13:07:36 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2021 13:07:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Eaton BR2xxB In-Reply-To: <98241a10-613c-4d62-fead-d9e08385e570@woofenden.net> References: <98241a10-613c-4d62-fead-d9e08385e570@woofenden.net> Message-ID: They do, indeed, list them. I just placed an order and will let you know if it is actually in stock. Thanks! On Wed, Oct 6, 2021, 11:08 AM Louis Woofenden wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > I haven't tried ordered through Enphase's store recently, but in the past > they have had those breakers available here: > https://store.enphase.com/storefront/en-us/enpower-breakers. They are > showing them in stock right now, but not sure if that's reality. > > A workaround I've tried is using BRH220 breakers (which are 22KAIC). At > least some of them have a fastener hole for the hold-down kit. I don't > think they are listed as allowable model numbers in the Enpower manual, > however, depending on how particular your inspectors are. > > Best, > > Louis Woofenden > > Net Zero Solar > Tucson, AZ > > Jason Szumlanski wrote on 10/6/21 4:08 AM: > > Enphase Encharge requires bolt down breakers for backfed battery circuits > in the Engage Smart Switch. All ampacities below 60A require the model > number with 'B' at the end to get the required fastener hole in the middle > of the 2-pole breaker. 60-80A BR breakers all have the hole already without > the 'B' designation. > > These seem to be hopelessly backordered under 60A. Does anyone have a > source? I noticed that Enphase has their own part numbers for these. Maybe > they have a stockpile of them somewhere. Any ideas? > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Tue Oct 12 16:06:50 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:06:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWWP Whisper200 Grid Tie inverter Message-ID: <61F385E5-D58C-488C-BE94-933E205D4914@sunwindpowerinc.com> I have a customer that would like to convert an off grid system with batteries to straight grid tie w/o storage (grid power just became available). So I’m hoping someone on this list might know of an option to convert a SWWP Whisper 200 (with controller) to grid tie operation? I found a company in Africa that says they have a unit, but haven’t had any response. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SWPS 16yr Logo copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14371 bytes Desc: not available URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 16:31:03 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:31:03 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWWP Whisper200 Grid Tie inverter In-Reply-To: <61F385E5-D58C-488C-BE94-933E205D4914@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <61F385E5-D58C-488C-BE94-933E205D4914@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Jeremy; As far as I know, SMA, ABB and Ginlong have all ceased production of their direct grid-tie wind inverters. You might talk to the folks at Voltsys (https://www.voltsys.com/), I believe they make units into which you can program the turbine's power curve, that produce a DC output compatible with most solar inverters. I have not used them, but it's worth a try. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 2:15 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > I have a customer that would like to convert an off grid system with > batteries to straight grid tie w/o storage (grid power just became > available). So I’m hoping someone on this list might know of an option to > convert a SWWP Whisper 200 (with controller) to grid tie operation? I > found a company in Africa that says they have a unit, but haven’t had any > response. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SWPS 16yr Logo copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14371 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sky at ecologicalsystems.biz Tue Oct 12 17:02:42 2021 From: sky at ecologicalsystems.biz (Sky Sims) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:02:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SWWP Whisper200 Grid Tie inverter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SMA used to make a sunny wind, you could check and see if those are still available in the US Sky Sims Https://EcologicalSystems.biz > On Oct 12, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > >  > Jeremy; As far as I know, SMA, ABB and Ginlong have all ceased production of their direct grid-tie wind inverters. You might talk to the folks at Voltsys (https://www.voltsys.com/), I believe they make units into which you can program the turbine's power curve, that produce a DC output compatible with most solar inverters. I have not used them, but it's worth a try. > Dan Fink > Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC > IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation > NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector > NABCEP PV Associate > danbob88 at gmail.com > 970-672-4342 > > > > >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 2:15 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: >> I have a customer that would like to convert an off grid system with batteries to straight grid tie w/o storage (grid power just became available). So I’m hoping someone on this list might know of an option to convert a SWWP Whisper 200 (with controller) to grid tie operation? I found a company in Africa that says they have a unit, but haven’t had any response. >> >> Best Regards, >> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 >> MWBE Certified >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SWPS 16yr Logo copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14371 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 18:12:11 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 16:12:11 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol-ark idle load Message-ID: <0473487C-9DBB-4D14-ABC7-44A78FAE6B7D@gmail.com> HI All, I”m wondering if anyone has measured the tare loss of a Sol Ark inverter? They say 60 watts for both the 5kw and 12kw. Im just wondering if that is accurate. thanks jay peltz power From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 22:14:15 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:14:15 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] sol-ark idle load In-Reply-To: <0473487C-9DBB-4D14-ABC7-44A78FAE6B7D@gmail.com> References: <0473487C-9DBB-4D14-ABC7-44A78FAE6B7D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, I have measured tear losses ranging from 40 watts up to 75 watts with the 12kW inverter. When charging/discharging rapidly the fans contribute to the higher consumption. My understanding is that the Wifi dongle uses single digit wattage to function. Definitely important to factor in the tear losses of this specific unit, somewhere around 1.4kWh/day Best, Chris On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 7:38 PM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I”m wondering if anyone has measured the tare loss of a Sol Ark inverter? > > They say 60 watts for both the 5kw and 12kw. > > Im just wondering if that is accurate. > > thanks > > jay > > peltz power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Oct 13 18:30:58 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 12:30:58 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for multiple 100 kW inverters Message-ID: Aloha Wrenches, I'm looking for as many as six 100 kW @ 480VAC inverters to replace as many Xantrex GT100s. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also (now please don't laugh), does anyone know of any electro wizard or wizardess who's repairing GT boards? Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Oct 13 18:40:33 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 15:40:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for multiple 100 kW inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marco: Ha ha. That is funny. What is your Vmpp? William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Oct 13, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > > I'm looking for as many as six 100 kW @ 480VAC inverters to replace as many Xantrex GT100s. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also (now please don't laugh), does anyone know of any electro wizard or wizardess who's repairing GT boards? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Oct 13 19:10:38 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 13:10:38 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for multiple 100 kW inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 430 Vmp...less actually since these mods have been broiling under the Hawaiian sun for 12 years. marco On Wednesday, October 13, 2021, William Miller wrote: > Marco: > > Ha ha. That is funny. > > What is your Vmpp? > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > > > Aloha Wrenches, > > > > I'm looking for as many as six 100 kW @ 480VAC inverters to replace as > many Xantrex GT100s. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also (now please don't laugh), > does anyone know of any electro wizard or wizardess who's repairing GT > boards? > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Wed Oct 13 20:34:19 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:34:19 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for multiple 100 kW inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marco, Craig Wilburn at Phantom Power Services may be able to help with the boards. 425-501-7280 Best of luck, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows From: Marco Mangelsdorf Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 6:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for multiple 100 kW inverters Aloha Wrenches, I'm looking for as many as six 100 kW @ 480VAC inverters to replace as many Xantrex GT100s. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also (now please don't laugh), does anyone know of any electro wizard or wizardess who's repairing GT boards? Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:40:45 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:40:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for multiple 100 kW inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SMA cores not as big but works well we have used them for 1/4 megs and larger, they are 480 vac Jerry On Wed, Oct 13, 2021, 3:31 PM Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > Aloha Wrenches, > > I'm looking for as many as six 100 kW @ 480VAC inverters to replace as > many Xantrex GT100s. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also (now please don't laugh), does > anyone know of any electro wizard or wizardess who's repairing GT boards? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:44:04 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 18:44:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for multiple 100 kW inverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9AB03A09-7FEE-4D0E-9CC7-E123E136B902@gmail.com> Hi Marco What is your panel max voltage 600 or 1000? Jay Peltz power > On Oct 13, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > > Aloha Wrenches, > > I'm looking for as many as six 100 kW @ 480VAC inverters to replace as many Xantrex GT100s. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also (now please don't laugh), does anyone know of any electro wizard or wizardess who's repairing GT boards? > > Mahalo, > marco > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From marco at pvthawaii.com Wed Oct 13 22:40:56 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:40:56 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for multiple 100 kW inverters In-Reply-To: <9AB03A09-7FEE-4D0E-9CC7-E123E136B902@gmail.com> References: <9AB03A09-7FEE-4D0E-9CC7-E123E136B902@gmail.com> Message-ID: 600VDC. On Wednesday, October 13, 2021, Jay wrote: > Hi Marco > > What is your panel max voltage > 600 or 1000? > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > > On Oct 13, 2021, at 4:31 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf > wrote: > > > > Aloha Wrenches, > > > > I'm looking for as many as six 100 kW @ 480VAC inverters to replace as > many Xantrex GT100s. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Also (now please don't laugh), > does anyone know of any electro wizard or wizardess who's repairing GT > boards? > > > > Mahalo, > > marco > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Oct 15 18:37:04 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:37:04 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request Message-ID: Wrenches, Generators have become a moving target, especially for off grid applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm assuming that many may simply be unavailable, given that half of most everything else is on back-order with no expected delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend a generator these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting recommendations from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback VFX3524 system which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP battery bank; 4kW array with upgrade infrastructure in place to later add 2kW more if needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and 2-wire start (for remote control). Pretty much any well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 VAC rating range could work. Thank you for your suggestions! Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 18:42:12 2021 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MD Electric & Solar) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 15:42:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check out Wildcat Generators, hand built in Kansas. I just placed my first order for one. 10KW LPG 1800RPM liquid cooled, built to run 24/7. They even make a DC (battery direct) generator. You can purchase through a master dealer in the Reno Nevada area, Freds Mountain Electric: https://fredsmountain.com/ https://wildcatpowergen.com/ On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 3:37 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > Wrenches, > Generators have become a moving target, especially for off grid > applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm assuming that many > may simply be unavailable, given that half of most everything else is on > back-order with no expected delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend > a generator these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting recommendations > from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. > > I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback VFX3524 system > which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP > battery bank; 4kW array with upgrade infrastructure in place to later add > 2kW more if needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little > generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and 2-wire start (for > remote control). Pretty much any well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 > VAC rating range could work. > > Thank you for your suggestions! > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 21:29:09 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 19:29:09 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Allan, I suggest finding a local long-standing generator technician and see if they can help provide the generator. We see so many generators bought online with no way to get service because there are no local and qualified service technicians to service that brand. If you buy from a local technician, or at least ask for their advise, it may allow you to get service in the future (maybe). We have had good success with Kohler 14 RESA or RCA machines, they do have off grid warranties, but good luck getting them now. Let us know what you decide. Thanks On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 4:42 PM MD Electric & Solar wrote: > Check out Wildcat Generators, hand built in Kansas. > I just placed my first order for one. 10KW LPG 1800RPM liquid cooled, > built to run 24/7. They even make a DC (battery direct) generator. > You can purchase through a master dealer in the Reno Nevada area, Freds > Mountain Electric: > > https://fredsmountain.com/ > > https://wildcatpowergen.com/ > > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 3:37 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> Generators have become a moving target, especially for off grid >> applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm assuming that many >> may simply be unavailable, given that half of most everything else is on >> back-order with no expected delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend >> a generator these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting recommendations >> from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. >> >> I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback VFX3524 system >> which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP >> battery bank; 4kW array with upgrade infrastructure in place to later add >> 2kW more if needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little >> generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and 2-wire start (for >> remote control). Pretty much any well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 >> VAC rating range could work. >> >> Thank you for your suggestions! >> Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar Inc. > Office: 707-884-1862 > Cell: 707-684-0064 > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Sat Oct 16 22:32:35 2021 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:32:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> Mac, I appreciate your suggestion, thank you. Indeed, I called a longtime regional independent generator dealer about this before posting here. I was surprised that he has Kohler 12s and 14s in stock and available. I’ll go that route if I don’t hear better from our fellow Wrenches. Allan > On Oct 16, 2021, at 7:29 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >  > Hi Allan, > I suggest finding a local long-standing generator technician and see if they can help provide the generator. We see so many generators bought online with no way to get service because there are no local and qualified service technicians to service that brand. If you buy from a local technician, or at least ask for their advise, it may allow you to get service in the future (maybe). > > We have had good success with Kohler 14 RESA or RCA machines, they do have off grid warranties, but good luck getting them now. > > Let us know what you decide. > Thanks > >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 4:42 PM MD Electric & Solar wrote: >> Check out Wildcat Generators, hand built in Kansas. >> I just placed my first order for one. 10KW LPG 1800RPM liquid cooled, built to run 24/7. They even make a DC (battery direct) generator. >> You can purchase through a master dealer in the Reno Nevada area, Freds Mountain Electric: >> https://fredsmountain.com/ >> https://wildcatpowergen.com/ >> >>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 3:37 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: >>> Wrenches, >>> Generators have become a moving target, especially for off grid applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm assuming that many may simply be unavailable, given that half of most everything else is on back-order with no expected delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend a generator these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting recommendations from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. >>> >>> I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback VFX3524 system which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP battery bank; 4kW array with upgrade infrastructure in place to later add 2kW more if needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and 2-wire start (for remote control). Pretty much any well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 VAC rating range could work. >>> >>> Thank you for your suggestions! >>> Allan >>> -- >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-884-1862 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 09:57:25 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:57:25 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Webbox latest firmware Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, Does anyone know where to get the latest firmware for the Sunny Webbox? The product is long gone but we are trying to enable Modbus for communication with the Namaka box (blue Ion). Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gary at icarussolarservices.com Sun Oct 17 10:58:22 2021 From: gary at icarussolarservices.com (Gary F Willett PE) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 10:58:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> Allan: DISCLAIMER: I have no business or financial relationship with any Generac dealer. I have owned two Generac EcoGens in the past 10 years and am pleased with their performance. The EgoGen is configurable using an option setting to use either LP or NG fuel. It is warranteed for the off-grid environment, with a 500 hour recommended interval for routine maintenance. Even though I live in an urban area, I setup my PV system in the grid-tie battery backup configuration. I have always used LP for fuel instead of natural gas because of some issues we've had with natural gas reliability here in north Texas under extreme winter weather conditions (last one here was in mid-February). I use my EcoGen only as a battery charger in a grid-down situation, it does not serve house loads directly. I'll admit that most of the hours on my generator are the bi-weekly exercise runs! I started with the 6kW 240V AC EcoGen as a field trial participant in Generac's beta testing of the EcoGen in an off-grid environment in 2010. Later I upgraded to the 15kW kW 240V AC model. I very pleased with this model too. So, consider Generac as an option too. Regards, Gary On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:32:35 -0600, Allan Sindelar wrote:   Mac, I appreciate your suggestion, thank you. Indeed, I called a longtime regional independent generator dealer about this before posting here. I was surprised that he has Kohler 12s and 14s in stock and available. I’ll go that route if I don’t hear better from our fellow Wrenches.  Allan   On Oct 16, 2021, at 7:29 PM, Mac Lewis wrote:  Hi Allan, I suggest finding a local long-standing generator technician and see if they can help provide the generator.  We see so many generators bought online with no way to get service because there are no local and qualified service technicians to service that brand.  If you buy from a local technician, or at least ask for their advise, it may allow you to get service in the future (maybe).    We have had good success with Kohler 14 RESA or RCA machines, they do have off grid warranties, but good luck getting them now.    Let us know what you decide. Thanks   On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 4:42 PM MD Electric & Solar wrote: Check out Wildcat Generators, hand built in Kansas. I just placed my first order for one. 10KW LPG 1800RPM liquid cooled, built to run 24/7. They even make a DC (battery direct) generator. You can purchase through a master dealer in the Reno Nevada area, Freds Mountain Electric: https://fredsmountain.com/ https://wildcatpowergen.com/   On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 3:37 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: Wrenches, Generators have become a moving target, especially for off grid applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm assuming that many may simply be unavailable, given that half of most everything else is on back-order with no expected delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend a generator these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting recommendations from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback VFX3524 system which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP battery bank; 4kW array with upgrade infrastructure in place to later add 2kW more if needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and 2-wire start (for remote control). Pretty much any well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 VAC rating range could work. Thank you for your suggestions! Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Oct 18 00:11:04 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 21:11:04 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out In-Reply-To: <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> Message-ID: Hey Folks,             I haven't seen this one until yesterday.  Customer with a 20 year old Trace SW4024 called.  I've been servicing this reliable system for the last 8 years.  He said after a delay the power shuts off when a moderate load comes on after 5-15 seconds, then back on, then off.....  Light loads no problem, the power stays on.  The inverter stays on the entire time (yellow light and that famous audio buzz) but I hear a relay? inside the left side of the wiring section with each change of on-off, off-on state. I assume its a repair to a service shop.  Ideas? Recommendations for repair shops?  I haven't been getting a response from the Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From chris at solarwindworks.com Mon Oct 18 02:16:31 2021 From: chris at solarwindworks.com (Chris Worcester) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 23:16:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I saw this once on a system I was called out to diagnose. a loose battery cable bolt was the culprit. It worked under a low draw of current, then cut out as the current rose, melted the battery lug severely by the time I saw it. Chris Worcester chris at solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9. -------- Original message --------From: frenergy Date: 10/17/21 9:08 PM (GMT-08:00) To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out Hey Folks,             I haven't seen this one until yesterday.  Customer with a 20 year old Trace SW4024 called.  I've been servicing this reliable system for the last 8 years.  He said after a delay the power shuts off when a moderate load comes on after 5-15 seconds, then back on, then off.....  Light loads no problem, the power stays on.  The inverter stays on the entire time (yellow light and that famous audio buzz) but I hear a relay? inside the left side of the wiring section with each change of on-off, off-on state. I assume its a repair to a service shop.  Ideas? Recommendations for repair shops?  I haven't been getting a response from the Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley.Thanks,BillFeather River Solar ElectricBill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic 874049solar powered since 1982-- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus_______________________________________________List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Mon Oct 18 08:43:05 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 12:43:05 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out In-Reply-To: References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> Message-ID: Bill, Craig Wilburn at Phantom Power Service, 425-501-7280, rebuilt a couple of SW4024 boards for me about 2 years ago, reasonable price and very helpful instructions and photos. Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting 845-657-8132 Sent from Mail for Windows From: frenergy Sent: Monday, October 18, 2021 12:07 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out Hey Folks, I haven't seen this one until yesterday. Customer with a 20 year old Trace SW4024 called. I've been servicing this reliable system for the last 8 years. He said after a delay the power shuts off when a moderate load comes on after 5-15 seconds, then back on, then off..... Light loads no problem, the power stays on. The inverter stays on the entire time (yellow light and that famous audio buzz) but I hear a relay? inside the left side of the wiring section with each change of on-off, off-on state. I assume its a repair to a service shop. Ideas? Recommendations for repair shops? I haven't been getting a response from the Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 10:14:36 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 07:14:36 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out In-Reply-To: References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> Message-ID: Look at the batteries, use a meter right at the bolts going in to the inverter, sounds like low voltage cut out. On Sun, Oct 17, 2021, 9:07 PM frenergy wrote: > Hey Folks, > > I haven't seen this one until yesterday. Customer with a > 20 year old Trace SW4024 called. I've been servicing this reliable > system for the last 8 years. He said after a delay the power shuts off > when a moderate load comes on after 5-15 seconds, then back on, then > off..... Light loads no problem, the power stays on. The inverter > stays on the entire time (yellow light and that famous audio buzz) but I > hear a relay? inside the left side of the wiring section with each > change of on-off, off-on state. I assume its a repair to a service > shop. Ideas? Recommendations for repair shops? I haven't been getting > a response from the Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 18 10:37:55 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 07:37:55 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out In-Reply-To: References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> Message-ID: <87f91f3051c2b84d57304840c9e1552e@127.0.0.1> Hi Bill, Sounds like an intermittent field effect transistor in the power bridge. I use the Schneider XW guy up in Oregon but I do not know if he works on the old Trace gear. If you strike out, drop me an email and I will find it as I never need him. They do not last forever and there are a ton of them with various issues on ebay so beware. I just went thru a few with a die-hard old client that would not modernize and bought old spares. He ended up paying me alot of hours for me to say I told you so. It was a really nice drive 4 times.... Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 21:11:04 -0700, frenergy wrote: > Hey Folks, > >             I haven't seen this one until yesterday.  Customer with a > 20 year old Trace SW4024 called.  I've been servicing this reliable > system for the last 8 years.  He said after a delay the power shuts off > when a moderate load comes on after 5-15 seconds, then back on, then > off.....  Light loads no problem, the power stays on.  The inverter > stays on the entire time (yellow light and that famous audio buzz) but I > hear a relay? inside the left side of the wiring section with each > change of on-off, off-on state. I assume its a repair to a service > shop.  Ideas? Recommendations for repair shops?  I haven't been getting > a response from the Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > solar powered since 1982 From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 10:49:45 2021 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:49:45 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1EA2A88E-FB25-4C16-AB53-F80B70A37EF6@gmail.com> Allan, I would not hesitate to use either the Kohler 12RES or the 14RES. I have many of the 14RES units out in the field and to this date they have been the most consistently reliable generators out of the various brands I’ve used over the years (Generac, Cummins-Onan and others). Several customers with 14RES units have over 2000 hrs, and one 14RES in a very particular situation that demand high runtime has just clocked 5,000 hours with no major repairs. For a genset powered by a 3600 rpm engine I find that amazing. Anyway, just my two cents. I don’t think you’ll go too far wrong with Kohler. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant. NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 > On Oct 15, 2021, at 4:37 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > > Wrenches, > Generators have become a moving target, especially for off grid applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm assuming that many may simply be unavailable, given that half of most everything else is on back-order with no expected delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend a generator these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting recommendations from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. > > I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback VFX3524 system which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP battery bank; 4kW array with upgrade infrastructure in place to later add 2kW more if needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and 2-wire start (for remote control). Pretty much any well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 VAC rating range could work. > > Thank you for your suggestions! > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Oct 18 11:11:33 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:11:33 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out In-Reply-To: References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> Message-ID: <2d518aee-53d9-e41f-8507-aa40ec69237f@psln.com> Chris and Jerry,             Sorry, I forgot to mention I did exactly that, had the Fluke clipped to the + and (-) of the pack and watched it as load was applied.  Yes, voltage fell but never got below ~24.4V when the inverter output stopped.  Checked tightness of all battery connections, terminal to terminal cables, virtually no corrosion anywhere.  Also, inverter stayed ON, just the output cut-out, then back on then off, then...... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 10/18/2021 7:14 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Look at the batteries, use a meter right at the bolts going in to the > inverter, sounds like low voltage cut out. > > On Sun, Oct 17, 2021, 9:07 PM frenergy wrote: > > Hey Folks, > >              I haven't seen this one until yesterday. Customer with a > 20 year old Trace SW4024 called.  I've been servicing this reliable > system for the last 8 years.  He said after a delay the power > shuts off > when a moderate load comes on after 5-15 seconds, then back on, then > off.....  Light loads no problem, the power stays on.  The inverter > stays on the entire time (yellow light and that famous audio buzz) > but I > hear a relay? inside the left side of the wiring section with each > change of on-off, off-on state. I assume its a repair to a service > shop.  Ideas? Recommendations for repair shops?  I haven't been > getting > a response from the Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > solar powered since 1982 > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 18 11:21:44 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:21:44 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out In-Reply-To: <2d518aee-53d9-e41f-8507-aa40ec69237f@psln.com> References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> <2d518aee-53d9-e41f-8507-aa40ec69237f@psln.com> Message-ID: <260ae8056f50a71bd06a7711cee35a71@127.0.0.1> Load test it! It may be the last time. It also might be bad contacts on the transfer switch. A good tech can switch AC1 and AC2 or may have the relay. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:11:33 -0700, frenergy wrote: Chris and Jerry, Sorry, I forgot to mention I did exactly that, had the Fluke clipped to the + and (-) of the pack and watched it as load was applied. Yes, voltage fell but never got below ~24.4V when the inverter output stopped. Checked tightness of all battery connections, terminal to terminal cables, virtually no corrosion anywhere. Also, inverter stayed ON, just the output cut-out, then back on then off, then...... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [3] On 10/18/2021 7:14 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Look at the batteries, use a meter right at the bolts going in to the inverter, sounds like low voltage cut out. On Sun, Oct 17, 2021, 9:07 PM frenergy wrote: Hey Folks, I haven't seen this one until yesterday. Customer with a 20 year old Trace SW4024 called. I've been servicing this reliable system for the last 8 years. He said after a delay the power shuts off when a moderate load comes on after 5-15 seconds, then back on, then off..... Light loads no problem, the power stays on. The inverter stays on the entire time (yellow light and that famous audio buzz) but I hear a relay? inside the left side of the wiring section with each change of on-off, off-on state. I assume its a repair to a service shop. Ideas? Recommendations for repair shops? I haven't been getting a response from the Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 solar powered since 1982 [5] Virus-free. www.avast.com [6] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.frenergy.net [4] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [5] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [6] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Mon Oct 18 11:25:10 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:25:10 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 4024 cutting out In-Reply-To: <260ae8056f50a71bd06a7711cee35a71@127.0.0.1> References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> <2d518aee-53d9-e41f-8507-aa40ec69237f@psln.com> <260ae8056f50a71bd06a7711cee35a71@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I meant to say full load test it with a couple of 1500 watt heaters. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:21:44 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote: Load test it! It may be the last time. It also might be bad contacts on the transfer switch. A good tech can switch AC1 and AC2 or may have the relay. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [3] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [4] text 209 813 0060 On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:11:33 -0700, frenergy wrote: Chris and Jerry, Sorry, I forgot to mention I did exactly that, had the Fluke clipped to the + and (-) of the pack and watched it as load was applied. Yes, voltage fell but never got below ~24.4V when the inverter output stopped. Checked tightness of all battery connections, terminal to terminal cables, virtually no corrosion anywhere. Also, inverter stayed ON, just the output cut-out, then back on then off, then...... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net [5] On 10/18/2021 7:14 AM, Jerry Shafer wrote: Look at the batteries, use a meter right at the bolts going in to the inverter, sounds like low voltage cut out. On Sun, Oct 17, 2021, 9:07 PM frenergy wrote: Hey Folks, I haven't seen this one until yesterday. Customer with a 20 year old Trace SW4024 called. I've been servicing this reliable system for the last 8 years. He said after a delay the power shuts off when a moderate load comes on after 5-15 seconds, then back on, then off..... Light loads no problem, the power stays on. The inverter stays on the entire time (yellow light and that famous audio buzz) but I hear a relay? inside the left side of the wiring section with each change of on-off, off-on state. I assume its a repair to a service shop. Ideas? Recommendations for repair shops? I haven't been getting a response from the Solar Cowboyz in Grass Valley. Thanks, Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 solar powered since 1982 [7] Virus-free. www.avast.com [8] Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [4] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [5] http://www.frenergy.net [6] mailto:frenergy at psln.com [7] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon [8] https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Oct 18 14:47:29 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 11:47:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane frig In-Reply-To: <260ae8056f50a71bd06a7711cee35a71@127.0.0.1> References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> <2d518aee-53d9-e41f-8507-aa40ec69237f@psln.com> <260ae8056f50a71bd06a7711cee35a71@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <1e9a7f40-b318-2aec-7095-b108515b46fb@psln.com> I've got another off-gridder that is telling me the propane frig they want to get pulls 350 watts.  Is this correct?...  Never heard of a glow bar for a frig. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From danbob88 at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 15:07:00 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:07:00 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane frig In-Reply-To: <1e9a7f40-b318-2aec-7095-b108515b46fb@psln.com> References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> <2d518aee-53d9-e41f-8507-aa40ec69237f@psln.com> <260ae8056f50a71bd06a7711cee35a71@127.0.0.1> <1e9a7f40-b318-2aec-7095-b108515b46fb@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill; That sure sounds like a 3-way RV fridge to me -- propane, 120VAC or 12VDC, lever selectable, doesn't use any electricity when run on propane except sometimes a light and temperature display/control. The small 3-ways I've dealt with tended to draw ~140W, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me if a larger model drew 350W on AC or DC, and they make some pretty large ones for the mobile palaces. Terribly inefficient when run electrically, it's just a heating element, but OK for the RV park where the electrical is free and from a pedestal. I've had to break that bad news to a few off-grid wannabees, unfortunately usually after they already bought one. Efficient electric fridges suitable for off-grid solar all use a compressor. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 12:44 PM frenergy wrote: > I've got another off-gridder that is telling me the propane frig they > want to get pulls 350 watts. Is this correct?... Never heard of a glow > bar for a frig. > > Bill > > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > solar powered since 1982 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 15:24:27 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:24:27 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane frig In-Reply-To: <1e9a7f40-b318-2aec-7095-b108515b46fb@psln.com> References: <1e9a7f40-b318-2aec-7095-b108515b46fb@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill Here is one that has a 300 watt ac side. Propane doesn’t use any watts https://uniqueappliances.com/product/10-cu-ft-propane-fridge/ Jay > On Oct 18, 2021, at 12:44 PM, frenergy wrote: > > I've got another off-gridder that is telling me the propane frig they want to get pulls 350 watts. Is this correct?... Never heard of a glow bar for a frig. > > Bill > > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Tue Oct 19 15:13:58 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:13:58 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> Message-ID: <6ce11681-e668-5f58-25f8-ccef78eca61b@sindelarsolar.com> Gary, Interesting that you bring up Generac in response to my request. The customer for whom I made this request for recommendations has a dead Generac EcoGen 15kW at her property now. I don't know what's wrong with it; it had failed before she bought the property. But she had it checked out and was turned down for a service call at her home, told instead that it would have to come into the shop and that basically the cost of repairs was more than replacement cost. So another EcoGen isn't likely at this point. Even on Generac's website, there are a surprising number of 'one-star' reviews for the EcoGen 15 (the EcoGen 6 is discontinued). The one at my own home, an early EcoGen 6 that Generac gave me around 2010 in return for evaluation and review, had a throttle solenoid fail with relatively few hours on it. So I remain cautious about Generac products. Thanks for your reply, though. Allan On 10/17/2021 8:58 AM, Gary F Willett PE wrote: > Allan: > > DISCLAIMER: I have no business or financial relationship with any > Generac dealer. > > I have owned two Generac EcoGens in the past 10 years and am pleased > with their performance. The EgoGen is configurable using an option > setting to use either LP or NG fuel. It is warranteed for the off-grid > environment, with a 500 hour recommended interval for routine maintenance. > > Even though I live in an urban area, I setup my PV system in the > grid-tie battery backup configuration. I have always used LP for fuel > instead of natural gas because of some issues we've had with natural > gas reliability here in north Texas under extreme winter weather > conditions (last one here was in mid-February). > > I use my EcoGen only as a battery charger in a grid-down situation, it > does not serve house loads directly. I'll admit that most of the hours > on my generator are the bi-weekly exercise runs! > > I started with the 6kW 240V AC EcoGen as a field trial participant in > Generac's beta testing of the EcoGen in an off-grid environment in > 2010. Later I upgraded to the 15kW kW 240V AC model. I very pleased > with this model too. > > So, consider Generac as an option too. > > Regards, Gary > > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:32:35 -0600, Allan Sindelar > wrote: > Mac, I appreciate your suggestion, thank you. Indeed, I called a > longtime regional independent generator dealer about this before > posting here. I was surprised that he has Kohler 12s and 14s in stock > and available. I’ll go that route if I don’t hear better from our > fellow Wrenches. > Allan >> On Oct 16, 2021, at 7:29 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>  >> Hi Allan, >> I suggest finding a local long-standing generator technician and see >> if they can help provide the generator.  We see so many generators >> bought online with no way to get service because there are no local >> and qualified service technicians to service that brand.  If you buy >> from a local technician, or at least ask for their advise, it may >> allow you to get service in the future (maybe). >> We have had good success with Kohler 14 RESA or RCA machines, they do >> have off grid warranties, but good luck getting them now. >> Let us know what you decide. >> Thanks >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 4:42 PM MD Electric & Solar >> wrote: >> >> Check out Wildcat Generators, hand built in Kansas. >> I just placed my first order for one. 10KW LPG 1800RPM liquid >> cooled, built to run 24/7. They even make a DC (battery direct) >> generator. >> You can purchase through a master dealer in the Reno Nevada area, >> Freds Mountain Electric: >> https://fredsmountain.com/ >> https://wildcatpowergen.com/ >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 3:37 PM Sindelar Solar >> wrote: >> >> Wrenches, >> Generators have become a moving target, especially for off >> grid applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm >> assuming that many may simply be unavailable, given that half >> of most everything else is on back-order with no expected >> delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend a generator >> these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting recommendations >> from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. >> >> I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback >> VFX3524 system which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to >> work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP battery bank; 4kW array with >> upgrade infrastructure in place to later add 2kW more if >> needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little >> generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and >> 2-wire start (for remote control). Pretty much any >> well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 VAC rating range >> could work. >> >> Thank you for your suggestions! >> Allan >> -- >> >> *Allan Sindelar* >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> *505 780-2738 cell* >> >> -- >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >> Office: 707-884-1862 >> Cell: 707-684-0064 >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Tue Oct 19 15:37:22 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:37:22 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: <6ce11681-e668-5f58-25f8-ccef78eca61b@sindelarsolar.com> References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> <6ce11681-e668-5f58-25f8-ccef78eca61b@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: We've seen such poor reliability with the Ecogens, that we can't recommend them anymore.  We've seen as high as 50% failure rates in full time off grid use as backup.  Charging batteries for hours is a very hard load and does not compare to biweekly exercise mode.  The failures have been fairly catastrophic, resulting in blown motors. The other issue with these types of pad mounted generators, as Allan just mentioned, is that they need to be pulled and taken into the shop for major repairs.  This can quickly add another $500 to $1000 to the cost, to have a tech with a crane pull it, truck it in, and then reinstall it later.  I'm actually just recommending a good quality portable generator for this reason in many cases.  At least the customer can take it in themselves if there's a problem. The alternative is to get into the bigger (>20 kW) units with water cooled motors and 1800 RPM operation.  I was surprised when I compared fuel consumption, the big units can actually use less fuel than an Ecogen when charging with dual inverters.  The wildcat is interesting, but I'm not ready to recommend a manufacturer I've not heard of before. Another option I have not tried in cold weather, is diesels.  I have clients in warmer places with Kubotas that have offered excellent service.  I have clients in Alaska that love their diesels, but I'm not sure what they've done to cold proof them. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/19/2021 1:13 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > Gary, > Interesting that you bring up Generac in response to my request. The > customer for whom I made this request for recommendations has a dead > Generac EcoGen 15kW at her property now. I don't know what's wrong > with it; it had failed before she bought the property. But she had it > checked out and was turned down for a service call at her home, told > instead that it would have to come into the shop and that basically > the cost of repairs was more than replacement cost. So another EcoGen > isn't likely at this point. > > Even on Generac's website, there are a surprising number of 'one-star' > reviews for the EcoGen 15 (the EcoGen 6 is discontinued). The one at > my own home, an early EcoGen 6 that Generac gave me around 2010 in > return for evaluation and review, had a throttle solenoid fail with > relatively few hours on it. So I remain cautious about Generac products. > > Thanks for your reply, though. > Allan > > On 10/17/2021 8:58 AM, Gary F Willett PE wrote: >> Allan: >> >> DISCLAIMER: I have no business or financial relationship with any >> Generac dealer. >> >> I have owned two Generac EcoGens in the past 10 years and am pleased >> with their performance. The EgoGen is configurable using an option >> setting to use either LP or NG fuel. It is warranteed for the >> off-grid environment, with a 500 hour recommended interval for >> routine maintenance. >> >> Even though I live in an urban area, I setup my PV system in the >> grid-tie battery backup configuration. I have always used LP for fuel >> instead of natural gas because of some issues we've had with natural >> gas reliability here in north Texas under extreme winter weather >> conditions (last one here was in mid-February). >> >> I use my EcoGen only as a battery charger in a grid-down situation, >> it does not serve house loads directly. I'll admit that most of the >> hours on my generator are the bi-weekly exercise runs! >> >> I started with the 6kW 240V AC EcoGen as a field trial participant in >> Generac's beta testing of the EcoGen in an off-grid environment in >> 2010. Later I upgraded to the 15kW kW 240V AC model. I very pleased >> with this model too. >> >> So, consider Generac as an option too. >> >> Regards, Gary >> >> >> On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:32:35 -0600, Allan Sindelar >> wrote: >> Mac, I appreciate your suggestion, thank you. Indeed, I called a >> longtime regional independent generator dealer about this before >> posting here. I was surprised that he has Kohler 12s and 14s in stock >> and available. I’ll go that route if I don’t hear better from our >> fellow Wrenches. >> Allan >>> On Oct 16, 2021, at 7:29 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>>  >>> Hi Allan, >>> I suggest finding a local long-standing generator technician and see >>> if they can help provide the generator.  We see so many generators >>> bought online with no way to get service because there are no local >>> and qualified service technicians to service that brand.  If you buy >>> from a local technician, or at least ask for their advise, it may >>> allow you to get service in the future (maybe). >>> We have had good success with Kohler 14 RESA or RCA machines, they >>> do have off grid warranties, but good luck getting them now. >>> Let us know what you decide. >>> Thanks >>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 4:42 PM MD Electric & Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>> Check out Wildcat Generators, hand built in Kansas. >>> I just placed my first order for one. 10KW LPG 1800RPM liquid >>> cooled, built to run 24/7. They even make a DC (battery direct) >>> generator. >>> You can purchase through a master dealer in the Reno Nevada >>> area, Freds Mountain Electric: >>> https://fredsmountain.com/ >>> https://wildcatpowergen.com/ >>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 3:37 PM Sindelar Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>> Wrenches, >>> Generators have become a moving target, especially for off >>> grid applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm >>> assuming that many may simply be unavailable, given that >>> half of most everything else is on back-order with no >>> expected delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend a >>> generator these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting >>> recommendations from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. >>> >>> I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback >>> VFX3524 system which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to >>> work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP battery bank; 4kW array with >>> upgrade infrastructure in place to later add 2kW more if >>> needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little >>> generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and >>> 2-wire start (for remote control). Pretty much any >>> well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 VAC rating range >>> could work. >>> >>> Thank you for your suggestions! >>> Allan >>> -- >>> >>> *Allan Sindelar* >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> *505 780-2738 cell* >>> >>> -- >>> Michael D Nelson >>> MD Electric & Solar Inc. >>> Office: 707-884-1862 >>> Cell: 707-684-0064 >>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>> >>> > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 19 16:04:06 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:04:06 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof Message-ID: Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. None of the glass was broken. I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the attic. There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the modules that would suggest this was the problem. Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if that changes anything. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Tue Oct 19 16:34:41 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:34:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: References: <6DEF8419-97A9-4496-8B6E-589E9F33A147@sindelarsolar.com> <1634482702.8so2soihsg4w08so@webmail.aplus.net> <6ce11681-e668-5f58-25f8-ccef78eca61b@sindelarsolar.com> Message-ID: <007601d7c528$bf057a90$3d106fb0$@solarwork.com> Ray this is {again} what I have experienced over my solar career with Generac, controls that burned, oil leaks, all in all gener-wreak. It is sad to see yet another unit dead & almost every offgrid time, “oh you need to bring it in for servicer” over & over. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:37 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request We've seen such poor reliability with the Ecogens, that we can't recommend them anymore. We've seen as high as 50% failure rates in full time off grid use as backup. Charging batteries for hours is a very hard load and does not compare to biweekly exercise mode. The failures have been fairly catastrophic, resulting in blown motors. The other issue with these types of pad mounted generators, as Allan just mentioned, is that they need to be pulled and taken into the shop for major repairs. This can quickly add another $500 to $1000 to the cost, to have a tech with a crane pull it, truck it in, and then reinstall it later. I'm actually just recommending a good quality portable generator for this reason in many cases. At least the customer can take it in themselves if there's a problem. The alternative is to get into the bigger (>20 kW) units with water cooled motors and 1800 RPM operation. I was surprised when I compared fuel consumption, the big units can actually use less fuel than an Ecogen when charging with dual inverters. The wildcat is interesting, but I'm not ready to recommend a manufacturer I've not heard of before. Another option I have not tried in cold weather, is diesels. I have clients in warmer places with Kubotas that have offered excellent service. I have clients in Alaska that love their diesels, but I'm not sure what they've done to cold proof them. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/19/2021 1:13 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: Gary, Interesting that you bring up Generac in response to my request. The customer for whom I made this request for recommendations has a dead Generac EcoGen 15kW at her property now. I don't know what's wrong with it; it had failed before she bought the property. But she had it checked out and was turned down for a service call at her home, told instead that it would have to come into the shop and that basically the cost of repairs was more than replacement cost. So another EcoGen isn't likely at this point. Even on Generac's website, there are a surprising number of 'one-star' reviews for the EcoGen 15 (the EcoGen 6 is discontinued). The one at my own home, an early EcoGen 6 that Generac gave me around 2010 in return for evaluation and review, had a throttle solenoid fail with relatively few hours on it. So I remain cautious about Generac products. Thanks for your reply, though. Allan On 10/17/2021 8:58 AM, Gary F Willett PE wrote: Allan: DISCLAIMER: I have no business or financial relationship with any Generac dealer. I have owned two Generac EcoGens in the past 10 years and am pleased with their performance. The EgoGen is configurable using an option setting to use either LP or NG fuel. It is warranteed for the off-grid environment, with a 500 hour recommended interval for routine maintenance. Even though I live in an urban area, I setup my PV system in the grid-tie battery backup configuration. I have always used LP for fuel instead of natural gas because of some issues we've had with natural gas reliability here in north Texas under extreme winter weather conditions (last one here was in mid-February). I use my EcoGen only as a battery charger in a grid-down situation, it does not serve house loads directly. I'll admit that most of the hours on my generator are the bi-weekly exercise runs! I started with the 6kW 240V AC EcoGen as a field trial participant in Generac's beta testing of the EcoGen in an off-grid environment in 2010. Later I upgraded to the 15kW kW 240V AC model. I very pleased with this model too. So, consider Generac as an option too. Regards, Gary On Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:32:35 -0600, Allan Sindelar wrote: Mac, I appreciate your suggestion, thank you. Indeed, I called a longtime regional independent generator dealer about this before posting here. I was surprised that he has Kohler 12s and 14s in stock and available. I’ll go that route if I don’t hear better from our fellow Wrenches. Allan On Oct 16, 2021, at 7:29 PM, Mac Lewis wrote:  Hi Allan, I suggest finding a local long-standing generator technician and see if they can help provide the generator. We see so many generators bought online with no way to get service because there are no local and qualified service technicians to service that brand. If you buy from a local technician, or at least ask for their advise, it may allow you to get service in the future (maybe). We have had good success with Kohler 14 RESA or RCA machines, they do have off grid warranties, but good luck getting them now. Let us know what you decide. Thanks On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 4:42 PM MD Electric & Solar < mdelectricsolar at gmail.com> wrote: Check out Wildcat Generators, hand built in Kansas. I just placed my first order for one. 10KW LPG 1800RPM liquid cooled, built to run 24/7. They even make a DC (battery direct) generator. You can purchase through a master dealer in the Reno Nevada area, Freds Mountain Electric: https://fredsmountain.com/ https://wildcatpowergen.com/ On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 3:37 PM Sindelar Solar < Allan at sindelarsolar.com> wrote: Wrenches, Generators have become a moving target, especially for off grid applications. Most are set up for grid backup, and I'm assuming that many may simply be unavailable, given that half of most everything else is on back-order with no expected delivery date... I'm seldom asked to recommend a generator these days, but I am today, so I'm requesting recommendations from other off grid-savvy Wrenches, please. I'm working with an older (2014?) existing dual Outback VFX3524 system which will be upgraded to dual VFXR-3648s to work with a 16kW Blue Ion LiFP battery bank; 4kW array with upgrade infrastructure in place to later add 2kW more if needed. Once the upgrade is done I expect relatively little generator runtime. The customer would prefer LP fuel and 2-wire start (for remote control). Pretty much any well-regarded model in the 8-14 kW @240 VAC rating range could work. Thank you for your suggestions! Allan -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell -- Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar Inc. Office: 707-884-1862 Cell: 707-684-0064 www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar -- Allan Sindelar allan at sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gosolar at cheqnet.net Tue Oct 19 17:51:06 2021 From: gosolar at cheqnet.net (Great Northern Solar) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:51:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7 and IQ Battery 10? Message-ID: Dear Wrenches…. Any one have experience with Enphase IQ7 and IQ Battery 10… Reliable, long lived? Programable Storage for more than backup? Thanks! C. Energetically, Christopher LaForge Great Northern Solar 77480 Evergreen Road, Suite #1 Port Wing, WI 54865 715-774-3374 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Tue Oct 19 18:55:26 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:55:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request Message-ID: <76A13682-212B-483A-B8FF-C97FA229C859@sunwindpowerinc.com> I have had good luck with Koehler 12kWRES and 15kW propane units lasting well over 10yrs in off grid usage. A couple of which I know have only had bare minimum maintenance, i.e. oil changes and filters etc. I have a couple larger (~20kW) off grid systems that have 25kW Diesel Koehler units. One of which runs biodiesel made on site, but we put that unit inside an insulated garage which was a PITA to maneuver into place. The first winter in operation the start battery went bad which meant the main bank wasn’t charged during frigid weather. Luckily I had required the owner to build a subsurface battery room (walk out basement below the power shed), so they didn’t freeze. Bottom line, unless your customer is very mechanically savvy, I would not recommend diesel due to 1) need for block heating and starter charging parasitic losses, 2) need for clean dry fuel. I gotta say I am intrigued by this Wildcat Generator company’s website. They’re using Honda engines for their smaller units which are extremely reliable and well built, but for charging an off grid system I really would prefer a small displacement propane/NG fueled (very clean operation and much easier all weather starting) inline water cooled 4 cyl running at 1800rpm - and if it can be DC coupled that would be awesome. They do have liquid cooled units, but I don’t see what their dB levels are or what their enclosures look like and the heavy metal music on their vid’s gives me pause. The warranty looks interesting though and they seem to be into straight talk so... My customers have not had good experiences with Generac (only sold a few of those for strict standby power w/o PV/battery) or Kohler service or parts departments. They do just enough to maintain a monopoly on their parts/service, so I may in fact give this Made in USA newcomer a shot on my next Offgrid. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 19:32:37 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 17:32:37 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator recommendation request In-Reply-To: <76A13682-212B-483A-B8FF-C97FA229C859@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <76A13682-212B-483A-B8FF-C97FA229C859@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Jeremy - I second your positive opinion of the propane Honda Twin GX-6xx engines for generator use, and I'm also intrigued by the Wildcat product using them for that reason. I have a client with a 10+ year old Coleman (back when they made real generators!) 9.5 kW propane generator with the Honda GX-620 engine that has been almost trouble-free since installation. And just about any Honda dealer will service it, though house calls are still an issue. We did have to pull it and take it in when the homeowner's son cross-threaded a spark plug during a routine service, but it was easy enough to pick up slung beneath a tractor bucket, the engine has 2 decent hoisting eyebolts. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 5:05 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > I have had good luck with Koehler 12kWRES and 15kW propane units lasting > well over 10yrs in off grid usage. A couple of which I know have only had > bare minimum maintenance, i.e. oil changes and filters etc. I have a > couple larger (~20kW) off grid systems that have 25kW Diesel Koehler > units. One of which runs biodiesel made on site, but we put that unit > inside an insulated garage which was a PITA to maneuver into place. The > first winter in operation the start battery went bad which meant the main > bank wasn’t charged during frigid weather. Luckily I had required the > owner to build a subsurface battery room (walk out basement below the power > shed), so they didn’t freeze. Bottom line, unless your customer is very > mechanically savvy, I would not recommend diesel due to 1) need for block > heating and starter charging parasitic losses, 2) need for clean dry fuel. > > I gotta say I am intrigued by this Wildcat Generator company’s website. > They’re using Honda engines for their smaller units which are extremely > reliable and well built, but for charging an off grid system I really would > prefer a small displacement propane/NG fueled (very clean operation and > much easier all weather starting) inline water cooled 4 cyl running at > 1800rpm - and if it can be DC coupled that would be awesome. They do have > liquid cooled units, but I don’t see what their dB levels are or what their > enclosures look like and the heavy metal music on their vid’s gives me > pause. The warranty looks interesting though and they seem to be into > straight talk so... > > My customers have not had good experiences with Generac (only sold a few > of those for strict standby power w/o PV/battery) or Kohler service or > parts departments. They do just enough to maintain a monopoly on their > parts/service, so I may in fact give this Made in USA newcomer a shot on my > next Offgrid. > > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP > Certified MWBE > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 14:33:40 2021 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:33:40 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jason, We had a similar situation with a SnapNRack UR-40 system. Homeowner said everyone once and a while they would hear a sound like "an acorn hitting the roof". It was pretty sporadic, but at least a few times a day. Install happened in late fall when there can be decent temperature changes throughout the day. Also, it was a cathedral ceiling below the install, so it's possible the sound was amplified by that (rather than being dampened by an attic). All racking was installed as per SNR's specifications with gaps in the rail splices for expansion etc. Short edge of the panels were spaced so that they didn't touch each other. Talked with SNR and they didn't have any ideas. The install happened directly after some other work was completed on that roof section (cellulose insulation was blown in, new shingles, some new decking in places, drywall, etc) so couldn't be sure in the end if it was related to us or somehow related to any of the other work that had happened (although they didn't notice it until the panels went up). The engineer said maybe there was just some settling in the house due to all the work. Doesn't sound like it was nearly as extreme as your situation though, and we never figured out exactly what it was. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 4:04 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by > another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started > having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to > day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That > made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten > things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it > was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds > stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has > rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect today. > She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had UFOs. > The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts out of > the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the original > installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. The UFOs > had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. None of the > glass was broken. > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails and > causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in > trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to > rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks > great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof > with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the > attic. > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing on > each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the > modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test > panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if > that changes anything. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Wed Oct 20 15:55:42 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:55:42 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Jason, I installed a 36 module array on a standing seam metal roof in June that I observed “tinging” sounds while working on it over a few days. It also employed the Ironridge UFO system but differs in that mine connected to the standing seams with L-feet paired with S-5! clamps and every single bolt and set screw was hand tightened and torqued to specifications. At first I thought a couple of my metal Acme cable clips holding the PV wire under the frames were popping off or letting down a conductor from it’s grasp but after looking into it repeatedly I determined it was likely just small expansion/contraction events. Temperatures were in the upper 90’s and they’re the black REC 365 modules. The building sits away from the client’s house so if it were still occurring likely know one would notice but I did not notice it the few times I was there working on other details on slightly cooler days. However, if it continued to occur the way I had heard it I could see how it would get the attention of someone if it were a habitable structure. Nick A Lucchese > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. None of the glass was broken. > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the attic. > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if that changes anything. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Oct 20 16:58:21 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 16:58:21 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These were Black framed Axitec panels. The clowns used zip ties (which were all over the roof, brittle and broken). There wasn't a single metallic wire clip on site. This went on for 6 months, with no discernable improvement or worsening according to the client. It was every day and night in every climate. I'm quite baffled. She thought she was being burglarized the first night. Then she hired a pest/vermin company thinking it was racoons. It didn't take long to put two and two together and realize it was coming from the solar array. But the original contractor couldn't figure it out. Pic attached of what's there now. Jaso On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 3:55 PM Nick A Lucchese wrote: > Hello Jason, > > I installed a 36 module array on a standing seam metal roof in June that I > observed “tinging” sounds while working on it over a few days. It also > employed the Ironridge UFO system but differs in that mine connected to the > standing seams with L-feet paired with S-5! clamps and every single bolt > and set screw was hand tightened and torqued to specifications. At first I > thought a couple of my metal Acme cable clips holding the PV wire under the > frames were popping off or letting down a conductor from it’s grasp but > after looking into it repeatedly I determined it was likely just small > expansion/contraction events. Temperatures were in the upper 90’s and > they’re the black REC 365 modules. The building sits away from the client’s > house so if it were still occurring likely know one would notice but I did > not notice it the few times I was there working on other details on > slightly cooler days. However, if it continued to occur the way I had heard > it I could see how it would get the attention of someone if it were a > habitable structure. > > Nick A Lucchese > > > > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by > another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started > having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to > day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That > made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten > things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it > was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds > stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has > rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect > today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had > UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts > out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the > original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. > The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. > None of the glass was broken. > > > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails > and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in > trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to > rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks > great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof > with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the > attic. > > > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing > on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the > modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test > panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if > that changes anything. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20211019_151721-resized-1024.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 529358 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ray at solarray.com Wed Oct 20 20:20:13 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:20:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is this something else we need to put into our contracts? "Not responsible for sounds due to normal thermal expansion and contraction of racking, modules, and roof"..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/20/2021 2:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > These were Black framed Axitec panels. The clowns used zip ties (which > were all over the roof, brittle and broken). There wasn't a single > metallic wire clip on site. > > This went on for 6 months, with no discernable improvement or > worsening according to the client. It was every day and night in every > climate. I'm quite baffled. > > She thought she was being burglarized the first night. Then she hired > a pest/vermin company thinking it was racoons. It didn't take long to > put two and two together and realize it was coming from the solar > array. But the original contractor couldn't figure it out. > > Pic attached of what's there now. > > Jaso > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 3:55 PM Nick A Lucchese > wrote: > > Hello Jason, > > I installed a 36 module array on a standing seam metal roof in > June that I observed “tinging” sounds while working on it over a > few days. It also employed the Ironridge UFO system but differs in > that mine connected to the standing seams with L-feet paired with > S-5! clamps and every single bolt and set screw was hand tightened > and torqued to specifications.  At first I thought a couple of my > metal Acme cable clips holding the PV wire under the frames were > popping off or letting down a conductor from it’s grasp but after > looking into it repeatedly I determined it was likely just small > expansion/contraction events. Temperatures were in the upper 90’s > and they’re the black REC 365 modules. The building sits away from > the client’s house so if it were still occurring likely know one > would notice but I did not notice it the few times I was there > working on other details on slightly cooler days. However, if it > continued to occur the way I had heard it I could see how it would > get the attention of someone if it were a habitable structure. > > Nick A Lucchese > > > > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > > > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two > years ago by another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost > immediately it started having loud popping noises intermittently, > but pretty consistently day to day. The homeowner thought it > sounded like expansion and contraction. That made sense, so the > original contractor came back multiple times to tighten things up. > The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it was > driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds > stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she > now has rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to > inspect today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge > XR100 rails and had UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that > they were tearing the t-bolts out of the top channel of the rail. > I don't know if that was from the original installation or after > they came back to try to resolve the issue. The UFOs had also dug > in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. None of the > glass was broken. > > > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the > rails and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly > installed in trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts > securing the L-feet to rails are all tight and show no evidence of > slippage. The attic looks great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses > (southern pine). It's a Gable roof with about 20 feet eave to > ridge. Again, everything looks great in the attic. > > > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were > rubbing on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the > short sides of the modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a > few test panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs > just to see if that changes anything. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Wed Oct 20 22:03:01 2021 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 02:03:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a similar experience 13 years ago on a house that had an addition built onto it. The array spanned between the original home and the addition, and the structure would creak in the evening as the aluminum racking and modules cooled. The creaking was a result of weaknesses in the structure, but I fixed the issue by splitting the array where the two structures met. It wasn't a very easy fix, but it did resolve the issue. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Walters Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:20 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Is this something else we need to put into our contracts? "Not responsible for sounds due to normal thermal expansion and contraction of racking, modules, and roof"..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/20/2021 2:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: These were Black framed Axitec panels. The clowns used zip ties (which were all over the roof, brittle and broken). There wasn't a single metallic wire clip on site. This went on for 6 months, with no discernable improvement or worsening according to the client. It was every day and night in every climate. I'm quite baffled. She thought she was being burglarized the first night. Then she hired a pest/vermin company thinking it was racoons. It didn't take long to put two and two together and realize it was coming from the solar array. But the original contractor couldn't figure it out. Pic attached of what's there now. Jaso On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 3:55 PM Nick A Lucchese > wrote: Hello Jason, I installed a 36 module array on a standing seam metal roof in June that I observed “tinging” sounds while working on it over a few days. It also employed the Ironridge UFO system but differs in that mine connected to the standing seams with L-feet paired with S-5! clamps and every single bolt and set screw was hand tightened and torqued to specifications. At first I thought a couple of my metal Acme cable clips holding the PV wire under the frames were popping off or letting down a conductor from it’s grasp but after looking into it repeatedly I determined it was likely just small expansion/contraction events. Temperatures were in the upper 90’s and they’re the black REC 365 modules. The building sits away from the client’s house so if it were still occurring likely know one would notice but I did not notice it the few times I was there working on other details on slightly cooler days. However, if it continued to occur the way I had heard it I could see how it would get the attention of someone if it were a habitable structure. Nick A Lucchese > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. None of the glass was broken. > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the attic. > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if that changes anything. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Thu Oct 21 00:56:25 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 21:56:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> We 're looking into pairing a smaller 6-8KW diesel generator back -up to an off-grid Outback system to take advantage of the surplus of bio-diesel here. We're aware of the need to keep it a warmish winter location Suggestions? Experiences? No China knock-offs thank you. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dan at foxfire-energy.com Thu Oct 21 05:58:29 2021 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:58:29 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator In-Reply-To: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> References: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> Message-ID: One of our customers in Northern Maine (a retired Merchant Marine Mechanic), Powers a small compound in the winter with a One Lung Lister Petter Diesel.. He set up the System in the basement of his shop.. the Lister has two huge flywheels, one belted to a 3k Mecc Alte Gen Head and the water jacket plumbed into the heating system for the shop.. When the outdoor temps drop below like 45F, he pops off the Lister and it runs 24/7 @ 740 rpm loaded at around 75%.. He figures he gets 100% of his power and around 85% of the heat for the shop for around a gallon and a half of biodiesel/day. Contact me Off List for more details. db ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of frenergy Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 12:56 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator We 're looking into pairing a smaller 6-8KW diesel generator back -up to an off-grid Outback system to take advantage of the surplus of bio-diesel here. We're aware of the need to keep it a warmish winter location Suggestions? Experiences? No China knock-offs thank you. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 Solar powered since 1982 -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Thu Oct 21 07:53:19 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:53:19 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator In-Reply-To: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> References: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> Message-ID: <42CCEE4F-77C7-48B7-85D2-5A721AE27D74@mavericksolar.com> I highly recommend the Kubota GL7000 or GL11000. They can be made to remote start with Atkinson controller or by remote key/switch assembly. I have the GL7000 personally and made it through the Texas Snowmageddon of ‘21. Purchased from here: https://www.coloradostandby.com/main/kubota-diesel-generators/ Also available from here: https://www.norwall.com/brands/Kubota/?ctm=kubota&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-4SLBhCVARIsACrhWLXrK-_K2hgVgVCT761mzVN910IRz1e4ZkBRiJTm0uZU1yhC9xJW4vMaAjm_EALw_wcB Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:53 PM, frenergy wrote: > > We 're looking into pairing a smaller 6-8KW diesel generator back -up to an off-grid Outback system to take advantage of the surplus of bio-diesel here. We're aware of the need to keep it a warmish winter location Suggestions? Experiences? No China knock-offs thank you. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.irish at suncommon.com Thu Oct 21 09:04:46 2021 From: jeff.irish at suncommon.com (Jeff Irish) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:04:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We've had several of these over the last two decades and they can be annoying and difficult to remedy. I think the underlying home construction is usually the cause. Either the structure has some weaknesses or discontinuities as mentioned above, or sheathing was attached while the rafters were still wet, or the sheathing was damp when the roofing went on, etc. Then all the wood starts to gradually dry out. Our general solution is to go back, hopefully during a dry, mid-temperature mid-humidity day and take off the modules, loosen all the nuts and bolts and re-tighten the rack and install the array. In some cases we have installed locknuts with teflon washers between L-feet and rail to allow a little lateral movement. After doing all this rework, we rarely get further callbacks. On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:03 PM Nick Soleil wrote: > I had a similar experience 13 years ago on a house that had an addition > built onto it. The array spanned between the original home and the > addition, and the structure would creak in the evening as the aluminum > racking and modules cooled. The creaking was a result of weaknesses in the > structure, but I fixed the issue by splitting the array where the two > structures met. It wasn't a very easy fix, but it did resolve the issue. > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Ray Walters > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:20 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof > > *EXTERNAL EMAIL* - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments.* > > > > > > Is this something else we need to put into our contracts? > > "Not responsible for sounds due to normal thermal expansion and > contraction of racking, modules, and roof"..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > On 10/20/2021 2:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > These were Black framed Axitec panels. The clowns used zip ties (which > were all over the roof, brittle and broken). There wasn't a single metallic > wire clip on site. > > This went on for 6 months, with no discernable improvement or worsening > according to the client. It was every day and night in every climate. I'm > quite baffled. > > She thought she was being burglarized the first night. Then she hired a > pest/vermin company thinking it was racoons. It didn't take long to put two > and two together and realize it was coming from the solar array. But the > original contractor couldn't figure it out. > > Pic attached of what's there now. > > Jaso > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 3:55 PM Nick A Lucchese > wrote: > > Hello Jason, > > I installed a 36 module array on a standing seam metal roof in June that I > observed “tinging” sounds while working on it over a few days. It also > employed the Ironridge UFO system but differs in that mine connected to the > standing seams with L-feet paired with S-5! clamps and every single bolt > and set screw was hand tightened and torqued to specifications. At first I > thought a couple of my metal Acme cable clips holding the PV wire under the > frames were popping off or letting down a conductor from it’s grasp but > after looking into it repeatedly I determined it was likely just small > expansion/contraction events. Temperatures were in the upper 90’s and > they’re the black REC 365 modules. The building sits away from the client’s > house so if it were still occurring likely know one would notice but I did > not notice it the few times I was there working on other details on > slightly cooler days. However, if it continued to occur the way I had heard > it I could see how it would get the attention of someone if it were a > habitable structure. > > Nick A Lucchese > > > > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by > another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started > having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to > day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That > made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten > things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it > was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds > stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has > rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect > today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had > UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts > out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the > original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. > The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. > None of the glass was broken. > > > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails > and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in > trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to > rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks > great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof > with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the > attic. > > > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing > on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the > modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test > panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if > that changes anything. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Jeff Irish* | PE, Vice President SunCommon.com | *Main: *845-876-3767 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kent at coveoregon.com Thu Oct 21 09:26:05 2021 From: kent at coveoregon.com (Kent) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:26:05 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator In-Reply-To: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> References: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> Message-ID: <3fb4b3cf-cb36-546a-ca7d-92d1abe888d1@coveoregon.com> Bill, I've had a couple customers have great success with generators from Wrico International in Eugene, OR. Their 7.5 kW generator uses a Perkins diesel engine. An ex-fisherman client claims that the Northern-lights generators are the most reliable. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar On 10/20/2021 9:56 PM, frenergy wrote: > We 're looking into pairing a smaller 6-8KW diesel generator back -up > to an off-grid Outback system to take advantage of the surplus of > bio-diesel here. We're aware of the need to keep it a warmish winter > location Suggestions? Experiences? No China knock-offs thank you. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 09:25:50 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 06:25:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator In-Reply-To: <42CCEE4F-77C7-48B7-85D2-5A721AE27D74@mavericksolar.com> References: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> <42CCEE4F-77C7-48B7-85D2-5A721AE27D74@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <4DDE2BE0-7F6D-4B74-A88F-F892416E9553@gmail.com> Wrico International out of Eugene, Oregon. I’ve installed dozens and dozens of their 7.5kw Kubota powered diesel Gensets. 20K hour plus…. easy. Super simple and you can always talk to the owner or head engineer. They are making propane gensets too. > On Oct 21, 2021, at 4:53 AM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > I highly recommend the Kubota GL7000 or GL11000. > > They can be made to remote start with Atkinson controller or by remote key/switch assembly. > > I have the GL7000 personally and made it through the Texas Snowmageddon of ‘21. > > Purchased from here: > > https://www.coloradostandby.com/main/kubota-diesel-generators/ > > Also available from here: > > https://www.norwall.com/brands/Kubota/?ctm=kubota&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-4SLBhCVARIsACrhWLXrK-_K2hgVgVCT761mzVN910IRz1e4ZkBRiJTm0uZU1yhC9xJW4vMaAjm_EALw_wcB > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > >> On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:53 PM, frenergy wrote: >> >> We 're looking into pairing a smaller 6-8KW diesel generator back -up to an off-grid Outback system to take advantage of the surplus of bio-diesel here. We're aware of the need to keep it a warmish winter location Suggestions? Experiences? No China knock-offs thank you. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Thu Oct 21 09:39:05 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:39:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007001d7c681$04a34a10$0de9de30$@solarwork.com> My house has a Corten standing seam roof & corrugated Corten exterior walls. The roof & walls talk to us as they warm up & cool down. Till snow cover comes & stays for the winter there is always minor sounds, esp. when the sun pokes out from behind a cloud. Keeps us aware that conditions are changing. We definitely find it informative. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeff Irish Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2021 7:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof We've had several of these over the last two decades and they can be annoying and difficult to remedy. I think the underlying home construction is usually the cause. Either the structure has some weaknesses or discontinuities as mentioned above, or sheathing was attached while the rafters were still wet, or the sheathing was damp when the roofing went on, etc. Then all the wood starts to gradually dry out. Our general solution is to go back, hopefully during a dry, mid-temperature mid-humidity day and take off the modules, loosen all the nuts and bolts and re-tighten the rack and install the array. In some cases we have installed locknuts with teflon washers between L-feet and rail to allow a little lateral movement. After doing all this rework, we rarely get further callbacks. On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:03 PM Nick Soleil > wrote: I had a similar experience 13 years ago on a house that had an addition built onto it. The array spanned between the original home and the addition, and the structure would creak in the evening as the aluminum racking and modules cooled. The creaking was a result of weaknesses in the structure, but I fixed the issue by splitting the array where the two structures met. It wasn't a very easy fix, but it did resolve the issue. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 _____ From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Ray Walters > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:20 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Is this something else we need to put into our contracts? "Not responsible for sounds due to normal thermal expansion and contraction of racking, modules, and roof"..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/20/2021 2:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: These were Black framed Axitec panels. The clowns used zip ties (which were all over the roof, brittle and broken). There wasn't a single metallic wire clip on site. This went on for 6 months, with no discernable improvement or worsening according to the client. It was every day and night in every climate. I'm quite baffled. She thought she was being burglarized the first night. Then she hired a pest/vermin company thinking it was racoons. It didn't take long to put two and two together and realize it was coming from the solar array. But the original contractor couldn't figure it out. Pic attached of what's there now. Jaso On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 3:55 PM Nick A Lucchese > wrote: Hello Jason, I installed a 36 module array on a standing seam metal roof in June that I observed “tinging” sounds while working on it over a few days. It also employed the Ironridge UFO system but differs in that mine connected to the standing seams with L-feet paired with S-5! clamps and every single bolt and set screw was hand tightened and torqued to specifications. At first I thought a couple of my metal Acme cable clips holding the PV wire under the frames were popping off or letting down a conductor from it’s grasp but after looking into it repeatedly I determined it was likely just small expansion/contraction events. Temperatures were in the upper 90’s and they’re the black REC 365 modules. The building sits away from the client’s house so if it were still occurring likely know one would notice but I did not notice it the few times I was there working on other details on slightly cooler days. However, if it continued to occur the way I had heard it I could see how it would get the attention of someone if it were a habitable structure. Nick A Lucchese > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. None of the glass was broken. > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the attic. > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if that changes anything. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jeff Irish | PE, Vice President SunCommon.com | Main: 845-876-3767 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Thu Oct 21 09:45:41 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:45:41 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator In-Reply-To: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> References: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> Message-ID: <43F4FED4-408A-4FE1-819D-AA2EAFE3C5E5@swnl.net> One of the issues you have in Ca. is the ARB (air resources board) so sometimes getting a genset from out of state can be a pain. I have used the Kobota 7k works well, the usual time spent wiring in the Ack, 2 wire start mod. I have also used the QD Diesel RV genset from Onan and found that too, while a bit $$$, it works well. > On Oct 21, 2021, at 12:56 AM, frenergy wrote: > > We 're looking into pairing a smaller 6-8KW diesel generator back -up to an off-grid Outback system to take advantage of the surplus of bio-diesel here. We're aware of the need to keep it a warmish winter location Suggestions? Experiences? No China knock-offs thank you. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 10:25:13 2021 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:25:13 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator In-Reply-To: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> References: <5b4bec25-01ec-c652-4a23-0e81f6f21649@psln.com> Message-ID: <2039465E-19CC-4EF2-887D-56670846C811@gmail.com> It’s certainly not for every situation, but I have had some experience with using [used] 6kw diesel light tower generators as backup power. These things are ubiquitous in the construction industry and are almost all powered by super durable Kubota or Mitsubishi 3cyl liquid-cooled diesels. They are definitely on the small end at 6kW, but even at 10,000 ft I have had no problem providing a full 4kW+ of battery charging power. One of my customers is an Iron Planet auction junkie and sourced one of these things for his PV system here in Colorado. It’s a summer-only solution, as the unit currently lives outdoors, but I was impressed with the performance. I have another one at a different site and it has proved to be reliable, quiet and easy to start. Downsides are obviously that they are most affordably sourced used from an auction house, the controls are pretty basic, and there is the whole issue of it coming mounted on a small trailer with lights. But some customers like that sort of thing, and it’s pretty straightforward to set up a generator controller for 2-wire start capability. Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant. NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 > On Oct 20, 2021, at 10:56 PM, frenergy wrote: > > We 're looking into pairing a smaller 6-8KW diesel generator back -up to an off-grid Outback system to take advantage of the surplus of bio-diesel here. We're aware of the need to keep it a warmish winter location Suggestions? Experiences? No China knock-offs thank you. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > Solar powered since 1982 > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 09:32:31 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:32:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small diesel generator In-Reply-To: <42CCEE4F-77C7-48B7-85D2-5A721AE27D74@mavericksolar.com> References: <42CCEE4F-77C7-48B7-85D2-5A721AE27D74@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: I don’t like those smaller kubota 3600rpm screemers, way to loud. But it’s not easy finding good quality 1800 rpm smaller units. If you want the highest quality, shop at marine stores. I found this one, MQ make great stuff https://www.multiquip.com/multiquip/DCA10SPXU4C.htm Jay Peltz power > On Oct 21, 2021, at 5:53 AM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > I highly recommend the Kubota GL7000 or GL11000. > > They can be made to remote start with Atkinson controller or by remote key/switch assembly. > > I have the GL7000 personally and made it through the Texas Snowmageddon of ‘21. > > Purchased from here: > > https://www.coloradostandby.com/main/kubota-diesel-generators/ > > Also available from here: > > https://www.norwall.com/brands/Kubota/?ctm=kubota&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-4SLBhCVARIsACrhWLXrK-_K2hgVgVCT761mzVN910IRz1e4ZkBRiJTm0uZU1yhC9xJW4vMaAjm_EALw_wcB > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > >>> On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:53 PM, frenergy wrote: >>> >> We 're looking into pairing a smaller 6-8KW diesel generator back -up to an off-grid Outback system to take advantage of the surplus of bio-diesel here. We're aware of the need to keep it a warmish winter location Suggestions? Experiences? No China knock-offs thank you. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> Solar powered since 1982 >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From offgridsolar at sti.net Thu Oct 21 11:20:27 2021 From: offgridsolar at sti.net (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 08:20:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: <007001d7c681$04a34a10$0de9de30$@solarwork.com> References: <007001d7c681$04a34a10$0de9de30$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: If you do not hear a SS roof making noises, you better have it checked. Installing solar on one is just a mistake if you live under it, in my opinion. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1] e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net [2] text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:39:05 -0600, "Dana Orzel" wrote: My house has a Corten standing seam roof & corrugated Corten exterior walls. The roof & walls talk to us as they warm up & cool down. Till snow cover comes ">Keeps us aware that conditions are changing. We definitely find it informative. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 DANA at SOLARWORK.COM Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com [3] "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. FROM: RE-wrenches ON BEHALF OF Jeff Irish SENT: Thursday, October 21, 2021 7:05 AM TO: RE-wrenches SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof We've had several of these over the last two decades and they can be annoying and difficult to remedy. I think the underlying home construction is usually the cause. Either the structure has some weaknesses or discontinuities as mentioned above, or sheathing was attached while the rafters were still wet, or the sheathing was damp when the roofing went on, etc. Then all the wood starts to gradually dry out. Our general solution is to go back, hopefully during a dry, mid-temperature mid-humidity day and take off the modules, loosen all the nuts and bolts and re-tighten the rack and install the array. In some cases we have installed locknuts with teflon washers between L-feet and rail to allow a little lateral movement. After doing all this rework, we rarely get further callbacks. On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:03 PM Nick Soleil wrote: I had a similar experience 13 years ago on a house that had an addition built onto it. The array spanned between the original home and the addition, and the structure would creak in the evening as the aluminum racking and modules cooled. The creaking was a result of weaknesses in the structure, but I fixed the issue by splitting the array where the two structures met. It wasn't a very easy fix, but it did resolve the issue. Cordially, Nick Soleil ENPHASE ENERGY Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell POWERING WHAT'S NEXT(tm)_ | _The Enphase Energy Management System [5] NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ------------------------- FROM: RE-wrenches on behalf of Ray Walters SENT: Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:20 PM TO: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [8] SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof EXTERNAL EMAIL - USE CAUTION WHEN RESPONDING, CLICKING, AND/OR DOWNLOADING ATTACHMENTS. Is this something else we need to put into our contracts? "Not responsible for sounds due to normal thermal expansion and contraction of racking, modules, and roof"..... Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/20/2021 2:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: These were Black framed Axitec panels. The clowns used zip ties (which were all over the roof, brittle and broken). There wasn't a single metallic wire clip on site. This went on for 6 months, with no discernable improvement or worsening according to the client. It was every day and night in every climate. I'm quite baffled. She thought she was being burglarized the first night. Then she hired a pest/vermin company thinking it was racoons. It didn't take long to put two and two together and realize it was coming from the solar array. But the original contractor couldn't figure it out. Pic attached of what's there now. Jaso On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 3:55 PM Nick A Lucchese wrote: Hello Jason, I installed a 36 module array on a standing seam metal roof in June that I observed "tinging" sounds while working on it over a few days. It also employed the Ironridge UFO system but differs in that mine connected to the standing seams with L-feet paired with S-5! clamps and every single bolt and set screw was hand tightened and torqued to specifications. At first I thought a couple of my metal Acme cable clips holding the PV wire under the frames were popping off or letting down a conductor from it's grasp but after looking into it repeatedly I determined it was likely just small expansion/contraction events. Temperatures were in the upper 90's and they're the black REC 365 modules. The building sits away from the client's house so if it were still occurring likely know one would notice but I did not notice it the few times I was there working on other details on slightly cooler days. However, if it continued to occur the way I had heard it I could see how it would get the attention of someone if it were a habitable structure. Nick A Lucchese > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. None of the glass was broken. > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the attic. > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if that changes anything. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [12] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [13] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [14] There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [15] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [16] List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [17] Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [18] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org [19] List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [20] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [21] There are two list archives for searching. 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Links: ------ [1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [2] mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net [3] http://www.greatsolarworks.com [4] mailto:nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com [5] https://enphase.com/en-us/products-and-services/envoy [6] mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org [7] mailto:ray at solarray.com [8] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [9] mailto:re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [10] mailto:lucchesesolar at me.com [11] mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com [12] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/re-wrenches.org__;!!J0D89H32QIeNiQ!h1DDe6hACpe4QiTi472fYaJ0eHDMWW2n8X9YDO1-NsA8--q2yDHfciVxee4euZTMtvw$ [13] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [14] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!J0D89H32QIeNiQ!h1DDe6hACpe4QiTi472fYaJ0eHDMWW2n8X9YDO1-NsA8--q2yDHfciVxee4e-kJjoJI$ [15] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/__;!!J0D89H32QIeNiQ!h1DDe6hACpe4QiTi472fYaJ0eHDMWW2n8X9YDO1-NsA8--q2yDHfciVxee4en5f4wJc$ [16] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org__;!!J0D89H32QIeNiQ!h1DDe6hACpe4QiTi472fYaJ0eHDMWW2n8X9YDO1-NsA8--q2yDHfciVxee4eHMCjpj8$ [17] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm__;!!J0D89H32QIeNiQ!h1DDe6hACpe4QiTi472fYaJ0eHDMWW2n8X9YDO1-NsA8--q2yDHfciVxee4eC-EjjRk$ [18] https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.members.re-wrenches.org__;!!J0D89H32QIeNiQ!h1DDe6hACpe4QiTi472fYaJ0eHDMWW2n8X9YDO1-NsA8--q2yDHfciVxee4eH-GV5Zo$ [19] http://re-wrenches.org [20] mailto:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org [21] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [22] https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ [23] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org [24] http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [25] http://www.members.re-wrenches.org [26] https://suncommon.com/ [27] https://suncommon.com/work-at-suncommon/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will at solarenergy.org Thu Oct 21 11:27:10 2021 From: will at solarenergy.org (Will White) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:27:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof In-Reply-To: References: <007001d7c681$04a34a10$0de9de30$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: I've got a PV array attached to my standing seam metal roof directly above my bed about 24" from my head when I'm sleeping and although we do hear some expansion/contraction noises it's not a problem. Every once in a while we'll hear a loud noise but I think that's more from my timber frame shifting/drying than the array on the roof. I'm sure others' experiences will vary. Thanks, Will On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:20 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridsolar at sti.net> wrote: > If you do not hear a SS roof making noises, you better have it checked. > Installing solar on one is just a mistake if you live under it, in my > opinion. > > > > *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > "we go where powerlines don't" > http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ > e-mail offgridsolar at sti.net > text 209 813 0060* > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:39:05 -0600, "Dana Orzel" > wrote: > > My house has a Corten standing seam roof & corrugated Corten exterior > walls. The roof & walls talk to us as they warm up & cool down. Till snow > cover comes & stays for the winter there is always minor sounds, esp. when > the sun pokes out from behind a cloud. > > Keeps us aware that conditions are changing. We definitely find it > informative. > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jeff Irish > *Sent:* Thursday, October 21, 2021 7:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof > > > > We've had several of these over the last two decades and they can be > annoying and difficult to remedy. I think the underlying home construction > is usually the cause. Either the structure has some weaknesses or > discontinuities as mentioned above, or sheathing was attached while the > rafters were still wet, or the sheathing was damp when the roofing went > on, etc. Then all the wood starts to gradually dry out. > > Our general solution is to go back, hopefully during a dry, > mid-temperature mid-humidity day and take off the modules, loosen all the > nuts and bolts and re-tighten the rack and install the array. In > some cases we have installed locknuts with teflon washers between L-feet > and rail to allow a little lateral movement. After doing all this rework, > we rarely get further callbacks. > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:03 PM Nick Soleil > wrote: > > I had a similar experience 13 years ago on a house that had an addition > built onto it. The array spanned between the original home and the > addition, and the structure would creak in the evening as the aluminum > racking and modules cooled. The creaking was a result of weaknesses in the > structure, but I fixed the issue by splitting the array where the two > structures met. It wasn't a very easy fix, but it did resolve the issue. > > > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > *Enphase Energy* Senior Product Manager > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > *Powering What's Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > ------------------------------ > > *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf > of Ray Walters > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 20, 2021 5:20 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Strange noises from the roof > > > > *EXTERNAL EMAIL* - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments.* > > > > > > Is this something else we need to put into our contracts? > > "Not responsible for sounds due to normal thermal expansion and > contraction of racking, modules, and roof"..... > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 10/20/2021 2:58 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > These were Black framed Axitec panels. The clowns used zip ties (which > were all over the roof, brittle and broken). There wasn't a single metallic > wire clip on site. > > > > This went on for 6 months, with no discernable improvement or worsening > according to the client. It was every day and night in every climate. I'm > quite baffled. > > > > She thought she was being burglarized the first night. Then she hired a > pest/vermin company thinking it was racoons. It didn't take long to put two > and two together and realize it was coming from the solar array. But the > original contractor couldn't figure it out. > > > > Pic attached of what's there now. > > > > Jaso > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 3:55 PM Nick A Lucchese > wrote: > > Hello Jason, > > I installed a 36 module array on a standing seam metal roof in June that I > observed "tinging" sounds while working on it over a few days. It also > employed the Ironridge UFO system but differs in that mine connected to the > standing seams with L-feet paired with S-5! clamps and every single bolt > and set screw was hand tightened and torqued to specifications. At first I > thought a couple of my metal Acme cable clips holding the PV wire under the > frames were popping off or letting down a conductor from it's grasp but > after looking into it repeatedly I determined it was likely just small > expansion/contraction events. Temperatures were in the upper 90's and > they're the black REC 365 modules. The building sits away from the client's > house so if it were still occurring likely know one would notice but I did > not notice it the few times I was there working on other details on > slightly cooler days. However, if it continued to occur the way I had heard > it I could see how it would get the attention of someone if it were a > habitable structure. > > Nick A Lucchese > > > > On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > > > Someone reached out to me who had a PV system installed two years ago by > another contractor on her shingle roof. Almost immediately it started > having loud popping noises intermittently, but pretty consistently day to > day. The homeowner thought it sounded like expansion and contraction. That > made sense, so the original contractor came back multiple times to tighten > things up. The problem never went away and lasted about 6 months until it > was driving her crazy and she had the panels only removed. The sounds > stopped. Legal proceedings ensued. Everything was dropped and she now has > rails up, panels in garage, and no clamps. > > > > The panels have been in her garage for 18 months. I went to inspect > today. She has Quickmount LMount flashings, Ironridge XR100 rails and had > UFOs. The UFOs were tightened so much that they were tearing the t-bolts > out of the top channel of the rail. I don't know if that was from the > original installation or after they came back to try to resolve the issue. > The UFOs had also dug in pretty deeply to the top of the module frames. > None of the glass was broken. > > > > I could not find much evidence of module frames slipping on the rails > and causing marks. The flashings and L-feet are all properly installed in > trusses at 48 or 24-in centers. The square bolts securing the L-feet to > rails are all tight and show no evidence of slippage. The attic looks > great. 5/8 ply over manufactured trusses (southern pine). It's a Gable roof > with about 20 feet eave to ridge. Again, everything looks great in the > attic. > > > > There are two rows of panels. I thought maybe the two rows were rubbing > on each other. But I could not find any evidence on the short sides of the > modules that would suggest this was the problem. > > > > Has anyone seen this issue before? I'm thinking about putting a few test > panels back up with standard mid clamps rather than UFOs just to see if > that changes anything. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > > > Change listserver email address & settings: > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > > List rules & etiquette: > > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > > Check out or update participant bios: > > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > -- > > *Jeff Irish* | PE, Vice President > > SunCommon.com | *Main: *845-876-3767 > 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > > > SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment > and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from > the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is > to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for > good. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 12:01:47 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:01:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over current Sqflex Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, Does anyone know if it's possible to over current an grundfos sq flex pump? It looks like it has a current limit of 10A but if more than 10A is available won't it just maximize pump speed? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 12:05:21 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:05:21 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over current Sqflex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20A5B2CC-3599-4C02-BE50-95DC4B63C6B8@gmail.com> HI Mac, Its self limited as to current. Pump speed/gpm is based on voltage. I cant remember exactly but somewhere above 80vdc is where it is running at full rpm/flow. Jay > On Oct 21, 2021, at 10:01 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, > > Does anyone know if it's possible to over current an grundfos sq flex pump? It looks like it has a current limit of 10A but if more than 10A is available won't it just maximize pump speed? > > Thanks > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Oct 21 14:59:56 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:59:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Over current Sqflex In-Reply-To: <20A5B2CC-3599-4C02-BE50-95DC4B63C6B8@gmail.com> References: <20A5B2CC-3599-4C02-BE50-95DC4B63C6B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Here’s that voltage vs efficiency chart you were referring to Jay. Nick > On Oct 21, 2021, at 9:05 AM, jay wrote: > > HI Mac, > > Its self limited as to current. > > Pump speed/gpm is based on voltage. I cant remember exactly but somewhere above 80vdc is where it is running at full rpm/flow. > > Jay > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-10-21 at 11.58.30 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 16096 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 08:13:36 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 06:13:36 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Buck Converter Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Is there a buck converter out there that will take a fluctuating input voltage of ~160V down to about 24V? I need about 200-300W Thanks! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 14:53:26 2021 From: jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com (Jon Siegenthaler) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 12:53:26 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10 Storage Capacity Message-ID: Hey Wrenches, I have a site with an LG Chem 9.8kW battery. This is coupled with the Solaredge Energy Hub. According to the data sheet the battery is listed as a 9.8kWh battery and has a usable capacity of 9.3kWh. On the Solaredge portal for the customer I can download the CSV file for the system production and consumption as well as the battery discharge. When I add up the kWh on average the battery will feed between 6.6-6.8kWh at a DOD of 85-84%. The elevation of the installation is 500ft above sea level, the battery is installed in the laundry room in the house where the highest temperature is 85°F. I had spoken to a Solaredge tech about the remaining 15% of the battery and if the client could use this portion. He had said that 5% was reserved for the inverter to keep operating and 10% was for the battery to stay awake/alive. Even with this added 15% as the "reserve" we're seeing nowhere near the supposed 7.9kWh. We seem to be missing around 1.3kWh of storage. On another site I have already had one battery internally explode back in July that wasn't on the recall list and am supposed to get the replacement in Q1 of 2022. Needless to say I'm less than impressed by LG and their under performance. Is anyone else experiencing anything similar with the storage capacity? Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 16:59:59 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 13:59:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10 Storage Capacity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As the LG battery ages so does its capacity go down, the harder and deeper the cycling the faster the downward trend in capacity Jerry NAPCEP PV Inspector On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 11:53 AM Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > Hey Wrenches, > > I have a site with an LG Chem 9.8kW battery. This is coupled with the > Solaredge Energy Hub. According to the data sheet the battery is listed as > a 9.8kWh battery and has a usable capacity of 9.3kWh. > > On the Solaredge portal for the customer I can download the CSV file for > the system production and consumption as well as the battery discharge. > When I add up the kWh on average the battery will feed between 6.6-6.8kWh > at a DOD of 85-84%. The elevation of the installation is 500ft above sea > level, the battery is installed in the laundry room in the house where the > highest temperature is 85°F. > > I had spoken to a Solaredge tech about the remaining 15% of the battery > and if the client could use this portion. He had said that 5% was reserved > for the inverter to keep operating and 10% was for the battery to stay > awake/alive. Even with this added 15% as the "reserve" we're seeing nowhere > near the supposed 7.9kWh. We seem to be missing around 1.3kWh of storage. > > On another site I have already had one battery internally explode back in > July that wasn't on the recall list and am supposed to get the replacement > in Q1 of 2022. Needless to say I'm less than impressed by LG and their > under performance. Is anyone else experiencing anything similar with the > storage capacity? > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 20:52:28 2021 From: jon.siegenthaler at gmail.com (Jon Siegenthaler) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 18:52:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10 Storage Capacity Message-ID: Thanks Jerry, This system was installed in May of 2021. So with just under 6 months of service I'm still underwhelmed by the performance. The cycling is relatively slow at around 1-.3kWh. Jerry Shafer Sat, 23 Oct 2021 14:00:22 -0700 As the LG battery ages so does its capacity go down, the harder and deeper the cycling the faster the downward trend in capacity Jerry NAPCEP PV Inspector -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Sat Oct 23 23:30:49 2021 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 20:30:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10 Storage Capacity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e710e84-7f10-30c8-c8a1-956991414f76@midnitesolar.com> FWIW, I was just looking at the specs for the RESU10  (48V) and it says the total kW-Hour is 9.8 kW-Hour which is at initial stage of life (note 1) Usable energy says it is good for 8.8 kW-Hour  (note 2) At first I thought that maybe they just don't let you discharge all the way to 0% and/or charge all the way to 100% but I guess that isn't the case ? Compatible Inverter Brands : SMA, SolaX, Ingeteam, Redback, GoodWe, Sungrow, Victron Energy, Selectronic - More brands to be added 1) Total Energy is measured at the initial stage of battery life under the condition as follows : Temperature 77℉ 2) Usable Energy is based on battery cell only boB On 10/23/2021 5:52 PM, Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > > Thanks Jerry, > > This system was installed in May of 2021. So with just under 6 months > of service I'm still underwhelmed by the performance. The cycling is > relatively slow at around 1-.3kWh. > > Jerry Shafer > > Sat, 23 Oct 2021 14:00:22 -0700 > > > > As the LG battery ages so does its capacity go down, the harder and deeper > the cycling the faster the downward trend in capacity > Jerry > NAPCEP PV Inspector > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sun Oct 24 13:45:13 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 10:45:13 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LG Chem RESU10 Storage Capacity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You may want to check if the battery is part of the LG recall On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 5:52 PM Jon Siegenthaler wrote: > Thanks Jerry, > > This system was installed in May of 2021. So with just under 6 months of > service I'm still underwhelmed by the performance. The cycling is > relatively slow at around 1-.3kWh. > > Jerry Shafer > Sat, > 23 Oct 2021 14:00:22 -0700 > > > As the LG battery ages so does its capacity go down, the harder and deeper > the cycling the faster the downward trend in capacity > Jerry > NAPCEP PV Inspector > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Oct 25 20:29:54 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 00:29:54 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Rating of Square D QO? Message-ID: Hello Does anyone have a definitive answer to the DC rating of the QO circuit breakers? I’ve got a potential client with an existing AC load center (>20 yrs) being used for his array combiner. He’s looking to add to the array, with modules that are higher voltage of course. Thanks in advance. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 20:45:39 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 20:45:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Rating of Square D QO? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, According to the QO cut sheet the answer is 48VDC: https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_Doc_Ref=0730CT9801 My guess is that your string voltage would be much greater than that. Not sure your exact application, but for the slight added cost, I would definitely suggest using a reputable NEMA3R combiner/disco with 300VDC breakers and throwing away the ancient load center. On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 8:30 PM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have a definitive answer to the DC rating of the QO circuit > breakers? I’ve got a potential client with an existing AC load center > (>20 yrs) being used for his array combiner. > He’s looking to add to the array, with modules that are higher voltage of > course. > Thanks in advance. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Mon Oct 25 21:55:47 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:55:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Rating of Square D QO? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f12ebf2-1c8c-05af-0c2e-13afc3e2bb80@solarray.com> I've got some old systems running the QO breakers at 48 v nominal, but the Voc of the array could be over 80.  Never an issue, but I agree just swap out that load center, since its that old.  Midnite has good stuff.  If you're just running to a an FM80 or similar with 150 v limit, their regular breakers are 150 vdc rated. I only use the 300 v rated breakers with the new FM 100 that can take 300 vdc. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/25/2021 6:45 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > According to the QO cut sheet the answer is 48VDC: > > https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_Doc_Ref=0730CT9801 > > My guess is that your string voltage would be much greater than that. > Not sure your exact application, but for the slight added cost, I > would definitely suggest using a reputable NEMA3R combiner/disco with > 300VDC breakers and throwing away the ancient load center. > > > > > On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 8:30 PM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > > Hello > Does anyone have a definitive answer to the DC rating of the QO > circuit breakers?   I’ve got a potential client with an existing > AC load center (>20 yrs) being used for his array combiner. > He’s looking to add to the array, with modules that are higher > voltage of course. > Thanks in advance. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Oct 25 22:59:18 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 19:59:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Rating of Square D QO? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeremy If you going to 300 or greater capable CC, simple MNPV6 and fuses and holders will be money saved each time you have to reset a CC due to Arcfault. Alot of these old systems did not use proper wire either so look close. Make it new and prevent a headache. But hey thats just me. Jerry NAPCEP Inspector On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 5:30 PM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have a definitive answer to the DC rating of the QO circuit > breakers? I’ve got a potential client with an existing AC load center > (>20 yrs) being used for his array combiner. > He’s looking to add to the array, with modules that are higher voltage of > course. > Thanks in advance. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Tue Oct 26 01:27:56 2021 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 05:27:56 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Rating of Square D QO? In-Reply-To: <9f12ebf2-1c8c-05af-0c2e-13afc3e2bb80@solarray.com> References: <9f12ebf2-1c8c-05af-0c2e-13afc3e2bb80@solarray.com> Message-ID: <98D071E4-92F9-4864-B817-6CBDCECD0D80@foxfire-energy.com> Contact Square D, they’ll send u a cut sheet.. QO is DC rated Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2021, at 9:56 PM, Ray Walters wrote:  I've got some old systems running the QO breakers at 48 v nominal, but the Voc of the array could be over 80. Never an issue, but I agree just swap out that load center, since its that old. Midnite has good stuff. If you're just running to a an FM80 or similar with 150 v limit, their regular breakers are 150 vdc rated. I only use the 300 v rated breakers with the new FM 100 that can take 300 vdc. Ray Walters Remote Solar On 10/25/2021 6:45 PM, Chris Sparadeo wrote: Hi Jeremy, According to the QO cut sheet the answer is 48VDC: https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_Doc_Ref=0730CT9801 My guess is that your string voltage would be much greater than that. Not sure your exact application, but for the slight added cost, I would definitely suggest using a reputable NEMA3R combiner/disco with 300VDC breakers and throwing away the ancient load center. On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 8:30 PM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: Hello Does anyone have a definitive answer to the DC rating of the QO circuit breakers? I’ve got a potential client with an existing AC load center (>20 yrs) being used for his array combiner. He’s looking to add to the array, with modules that are higher voltage of course. Thanks in advance. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Oct 26 05:43:50 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 05:43:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Rating of Square D QO? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 5 kA 48 V DC Square D has a very good product selector with data sheets for all products. https://www.se.com/us/en/work/support/resources-and-tools/calculators-and-online-tools/ez-selectors/ Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 8:30 PM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have a definitive answer to the DC rating of the QO circuit > breakers? I’ve got a potential client with an existing AC load center > (>20 yrs) being used for his array combiner. > He’s looking to add to the array, with modules that are higher voltage of > course. > Thanks in advance. > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: QO_QO250_document.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 76014 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 09:58:07 2021 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 06:58:07 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Rating of Square D QO? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I remember Ananda got a UL listing with a rating up to 60VDC on their APT power centers using the QOU breakers. I think the SqD rating on those is the same as for the QO breakers at 48VDC. I would not go any higher than that though. Also be aware that the QO does not work well when used at 12VDC for distribution, the snap on part needs 24VDC or higher to make and keep a good connection. I used to have to push the breakers around every now and then to keep the lights from flickering in my old 12VDC cabin. Brad On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 2:44 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > 5 kA 48 V DC > > Square D has a very good product selector with data sheets for all > products. > > > https://www.se.com/us/en/work/support/resources-and-tools/calculators-and-online-tools/ez-selectors/ > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 8:30 PM Jeremy Rodriguez > wrote: > >> Hello >> Does anyone have a definitive answer to the DC rating of the QO circuit >> breakers? I’ve got a potential client with an existing AC load center >> (>20 yrs) being used for his array combiner. >> He’s looking to add to the array, with modules that are higher voltage of >> course. >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Jeremy Rodriguez >> Solar Installation / Design Expert >> All Solar, Inc. >> 1453 M St >> Penrose Colorado 81240 >> >> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Oct 26 03:06:25 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 00:06:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Rating of Square D QO? In-Reply-To: <9f12ebf2-1c8c-05af-0c2e-13afc3e2bb80@solarray.com> References: <9f12ebf2-1c8c-05af-0c2e-13afc3e2bb80@solarray.com> Message-ID: <5c2e71adfa8d83fdb476e2c812af9657@mail.gmail.com> Jeremy: I am curious, how are you going to add panels with different electrical characteristics to an existing system and get the charge controller to MPP track? William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 8:30 PM Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: Hello Does anyone have a definitive answer to the DC rating of the QO circuit breakers? I’ve got a potential client with an existing AC load center (>20 yrs) being used for his array combiner. He’s looking to add to the array, with modules that are higher voltage of course. Thanks in advance. Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Tue Oct 26 17:16:14 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:16:14 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Premanufactured Pergola for PV Message-ID: <089CD55F-0F7A-49C5-9D32-00FF5A5A79C2@sunwindpowerinc.com> Does anyone know of a reputable company that offers premanufactured or standard 'off the shelf' pergolas for PV mods for residential customers? I thought I’d seen a marketing email a while back from a company offering basically a kitted structure that didn’t require any special equipment/skills for assembly, but for the life of me I can’t find the email or their web page. I remember that all that was needed were basic foundations and simple assembly by “unskilled labor”. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Tue Oct 26 17:25:48 2021 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 15:25:48 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Premanufactured Pergola for PV In-Reply-To: <089CD55F-0F7A-49C5-9D32-00FF5A5A79C2@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <089CD55F-0F7A-49C5-9D32-00FF5A5A79C2@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Jeremy, I don't know if they package and ship these or if they only install directly to their client base but Suncommon has what they call their "Solar Canopy" product. https://suncommon.com/solar-canopy/ Cheers, Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager | o. (406) 551-6135 On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 3:16 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > Does anyone know of a reputable company that offers premanufactured or > standard 'off the shelf' pergolas for PV mods for residential customers? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From revans1212 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 17:55:29 2021 From: revans1212 at gmail.com (Robert Evans) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:55:29 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Premanufactured Pergola for PV In-Reply-To: References: <089CD55F-0F7A-49C5-9D32-00FF5A5A79C2@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Jeremy Here's a link to a manufacturer that may be what you are looking for: https://www.blikir.com/ I've never used one but I like the idea. Bob Evans Evans Energy Systems Santa Cruz, CA 831-345-3459 On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 2:26 PM Sam Haraldson wrote: > Jeremy, > > I don't know if they package and ship these or if they only install > directly to their client base but Suncommon has what they call their "Solar > Canopy" product. > > https://suncommon.com/solar-canopy/ > > Cheers, > Sam Haraldson > Installation & Service Manager > > > > | o. (406) 551-6135 > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 3:16 PM Jeremy Coxon > wrote: > >> Does anyone know of a reputable company that offers premanufactured or >> standard 'off the shelf' pergolas for PV mods for residential customers? >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Bob Evans Evans Energy Systems 831-345-3459 revans1212 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 19:57:16 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:57:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Premanufactured Pergola for PV In-Reply-To: <089CD55F-0F7A-49C5-9D32-00FF5A5A79C2@sunwindpowerinc.com> References: <089CD55F-0F7A-49C5-9D32-00FF5A5A79C2@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: Unskilled labor, UL Listing dont generally go together, personally l dont like DYI in renewable, its not allowed in many other trades but solar it is rampant and it gives the entire industry a black eye. On Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 2:16 PM Jeremy Coxon wrote: > Does anyone know of a reputable company that offers premanufactured or > standard 'off the shelf' pergolas for PV mods for residential customers? I > thought I’d seen a marketing email a while back from a company offering > basically a kitted structure that didn’t require any special > equipment/skills for assembly, but for the life of me I can’t find the > email or their web page. I remember that all that was needed were basic > foundations and simple assembly by “unskilled labor”. > > Best Regards, > Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 > MWBE Certified > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Wed Oct 27 07:24:13 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 06:24:13 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Premanufactured Pergola for PV In-Reply-To: References: <089CD55F-0F7A-49C5-9D32-00FF5A5A79C2@sunwindpowerinc.com> Message-ID: My team at Solar CenTex can provide solutions and has provided for others in the past. We’ve been creating these for years and it really is “the most beautiful way to have solar.” We started adding some “standard” sizes to facilitate purchases like yours. Let me know if I can help. We had a full bolt-up version that required no on-site welding. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 6:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Premanufactured Pergola for PV Unskilled labor, UL Listing dont generally go together, personally l dont like DYI in renewable, its not allowed in many other trades but solar it is rampant and it gives the entire industry a black eye. On Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 2:16 PM Jeremy Coxon > wrote: Does anyone know of a reputable company that offers premanufactured or standard 'off the shelf' pergolas for PV mods for residential customers? I thought I’d seen a marketing email a while back from a company offering basically a kitted structure that didn’t require any special equipment/skills for assembly, but for the life of me I can’t find the email or their web page. I remember that all that was needed were basic foundations and simple assembly by “unskilled labor”. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27572 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solar pergola pic for rewrenches.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 67851 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rick at solshineenergy.com Wed Oct 27 08:13:26 2021 From: rick at solshineenergy.com (rick at solshineenergy.com) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 08:13:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Max Distance Message-ID: <9F19578A-7039-41F9-B0AB-4E001A900BBB@solshineenergy.com> Good morning Wreches. What’s the furthest distance anyone has placed Enphase micros from the Envoy? We’ve done ~300’ without any issues related to comms or performance. Thanks, rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergy.com Cave Spring, VA Office: 540.235.3095 Mobile: 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762 VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: solshine-01-18-17 copy.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10151 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Oct 27 08:13:34 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 06:13:34 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] DIY solar Message-ID: <000d01d7cb2c$111a1300$334e3900$@solarwork.com> The name of the company is : PROJECTSOLAR.IO Here in idaho I have no idea how they are going to succeed. I do know of one project that I quoted that has purchased from them, but I have not heard beyond that. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 5:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Premanufactured Pergola for PV Unskilled labor, UL Listing dont generally go together, personally l dont like DYI in renewable, its not allowed in many other trades but solar it is rampant and it gives the entire industry a black eye. On Tue, Oct 26, 2021, 2:16 PM Jeremy Coxon > wrote: Does anyone know of a reputable company that offers premanufactured or standard 'off the shelf' pergolas for PV mods for residential customers? I thought I’d seen a marketing email a while back from a company offering basically a kitted structure that didn’t require any special equipment/skills for assembly, but for the life of me I can’t find the email or their web page. I remember that all that was needed were basic foundations and simple assembly by “unskilled labor”. Best Regards, Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21 MWBE Certified _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com Wed Oct 27 17:50:18 2021 From: jcoxon at sunwindpowerinc.com (Jeremy Coxon) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 17:50:18 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Premanufactured Pergola for PV Message-ID: Jerry, Agree 100%, the “unskilled labor thing” was just something I thought I remembered in their marketing materials. Robert Evans sent the link to the canopy I was trying to find. It’s a fully engineered system, it just doesn’t require a metal worker, welder, or carpenter to put it together. I doubt a homeowner would want to tackle, but its perfect for our case. Finding folks with those higher level skills these days is no simple task in this neck of the woods especially when the jobs that need those skills are infrequent and the contractor market is buzzing. Appreciate the assist! I was going nuts trying to find the link. I’ll check out the other link that you sent too Scott, much appreciated. Jeremy Coxon NABCEP Certified MWBE Sent from my iPhone From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Thu Oct 28 10:16:38 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:16:38 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Monthly Reporting Software Update Remove Site ID in Subject Line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Five months ago, our Enphase monthly reports removed the site name from the Subject line.  After many, many emails and phone calls, today I was told their software engineers were aware of the problem and they were not going to fix it. They were working on "more important things", so too bad, I am sorry.   We had filtered the reports so they went directly to a customer's folder.  This is a step backwards for certain and seems pretty stupid from an installer perspective. I am wondering if anyone else has this issue. All I could find out is that "Steve" at Enphase was in charge of this, but they would not provide contact information because "He does not interact with customers." Chris Warfel --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Thu Oct 28 10:52:15 2021 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:52:15 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Monthly Reporting Software Update Remove Site ID in Subject Line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Chris for sharing your concern. I also noticed this change a couple days ago. I'm working this internally and will let you know what I find out. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Christopher Warfel Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 7:16 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Monthly Reporting Software Update Remove Site ID in Subject Line? EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Five months ago, our Enphase monthly reports removed the site name from the Subject line. After many, many emails and phone calls, today I was told their software engineers were aware of the problem and they were not going to fix it. They were working on "more important things", so too bad, I am sorry. We had filtered the reports so they went directly to a customer's folder. This is a step backwards for certain and seems pretty stupid from an installer perspective. I am wondering if anyone else has this issue. All I could find out is that "Steve" at Enphase was in charge of this, but they would not provide contact information because "He does not interact with customers." Chris Warfel -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:part1.XGy05yut.3oU0BJm0 at entech-engineering.com] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: EEIlogolong.jpg URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Thu Oct 28 10:57:25 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 10:57:25 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Monthly Reporting Software Update Remove Site ID in Subject Line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's probably Steve Kinerk. Really bright guy. I've interacted with him before. I wouldn't want to share his direct contact info, however, as I understand their need to limit direct inquiries to employees. This is such a simple template change that you'd think someone could handle in under an hour. Sadly, a lot of Enphase's emails cause me problems. Every time they send out a consumer marketing email our phone rings off the hook and we have to field tons of irrelevant questions and provide education on why the shiny new thing isn't right for them. And they need to drop that silly "Energy Independence" score. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 10:16 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > Five months ago, our Enphase monthly reports removed the site name from > the Subject line. After many, many emails and phone calls, today I was > told their software engineers were aware of the problem and they were not > going to fix it. They were working on "more important things", so too bad, > I am sorry. We had filtered the reports so they went directly to a > customer's folder. This is a step backwards for certain and seems pretty > stupid from an installer perspective. > > I am wondering if anyone else has this issue. > > All I could find out is that "Steve" at Enphase was in charge of this, but > they would not provide contact information because "He does not interact > with customers." > > > Chris Warfel > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From solar1online at charter.net Thu Oct 28 18:12:20 2021 From: solar1online at charter.net (Bill Loesch) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2021 22:12:20 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] American Solar 270 watt form factor replacement request Message-ID: Is anyone aware what module would fit into this "hole"? SolarEdge system suffered a lightning hit. Thanks in advance, Bill LoeschSaint Louis, MO ----------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rewrench at sw-ei.com Fri Oct 29 11:46:35 2021 From: rewrench at sw-ei.com (Kurt Albershardt) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:46:35 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance Message-ID: Good morning, all. Long time no write. We have a client with an SW4024 that recently suffered a lightning hit. The inverter is actually working fine (those things were truly tough) but the cooling fan now runs continuously. The SW design team long ago scattered to the winds of Outback, Midnight, etc. Schneider is clueless. Anyone have a pointer to someone who might be able to assist with schematics or guidance on an emergency repair? We're planning to replace the unit next spring, when the sun is back in all of its glory. thank you~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Fri Oct 29 11:59:51 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 15:59:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Kurt, Craig Wilburn at Phantom Power Services should be able to help. 425-501-7280 https://phantompowerservices.com/ Best of luck, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows From: Kurt Albershardt Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 11:46 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance Good morning, all. Long time no write. We have a client with an SW4024 that recently suffered a lightning hit. The inverter is actually working fine (those things were truly tough) but the cooling fan now runs continuously. The SW design team long ago scattered to the winds of Outback, Midnight, etc. Schneider is clueless. Anyone have a pointer to someone who might be able to assist with schematics or guidance on an emergency repair? We're planning to replace the unit next spring, when the sun is back in all of its glory. thank you~ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solarjon at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 12:22:53 2021 From: solarjon at gmail.com (Jonathan Hill) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:22:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CCECCF2-DF61-4F58-ABA9-FBB3F075B24C@gmail.com> Try Solar Cowboyz. They are very good at fixing inverters. (530) 477-8506. > On Oct 29, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: > > Hello Kurt, > > Craig Wilburn at Phantom Power Services should be able to help. > 425-501-7280 > https://phantompowerservices.com/ > > Best of luck, > Lloyd > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: Kurt Albershardt > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 11:46 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance > > Good morning, all. > > Long time no write. > > We have a client with an SW4024 that recently suffered a lightning hit. The inverter is actually working fine (those things were truly tough) but the cooling fan now runs continuously. > > The SW design team long ago scattered to the winds of Outback, Midnight, etc. Schneider is clueless. Anyone have a pointer to someone who might be able to assist with schematics or guidance on an emergency repair? > > We're planning to replace the unit next spring, when the sun is back in all of its glory. > > > thank you~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rewrench at sw-ei.com Fri Oct 29 12:29:10 2021 From: rewrench at sw-ei.com (Kurt Albershardt) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:29:10 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance In-Reply-To: <2CCECCF2-DF61-4F58-ABA9-FBB3F075B24C@gmail.com> References: <2CCECCF2-DF61-4F58-ABA9-FBB3F075B24C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks! Appreciate the quick replies. On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 10:23 AM Jonathan Hill wrote: > Try Solar Cowboyz. They are very good at fixing inverters. (530) 477-8506. > > On Oct 29, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Lloyd Hoffstatter < > lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > > Hello Kurt, > > Craig Wilburn at Phantom Power Services should be able to help. > 425-501-7280 > https://phantompowerservices.com/ > > Best of luck, > Lloyd > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows > > *From: *Kurt Albershardt > *Sent: *Friday, October 29, 2021 11:46 AM > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance > > Good morning, all. > > Long time no write. > > We have a client with an SW4024 that recently suffered a lightning hit. > The inverter is actually working fine (those things were truly tough) but > the cooling fan now runs continuously. > > The SW design team long ago scattered to the winds of Outback, Midnight, > etc. Schneider is clueless. Anyone have a pointer to someone who might be > able to assist with schematics or guidance on an emergency repair? > > We're planning to replace the unit next spring, when the sun is back in > all of its glory. > > > thank you~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan at foxfire-energy.com Fri Oct 29 12:53:16 2021 From: dan at foxfire-energy.com (Foxfire Energy) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:53:16 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance In-Reply-To: References: <2CCECCF2-DF61-4F58-ABA9-FBB3F075B24C@gmail.com> Message-ID: try Tekris https://www.tekrispower.com/ [https://www.tekrispower.com/files/131232179.jpg] Alternative Energy Solutions | Inverter Chargers | TekrisPower.com Providing Alternative Energy Solutions for You. LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEED . To match price, must be in stock from an Authorized Retailer. TEKRIS Power Electronics Inc. offers you the best alternative energy solutions on the market. Shop for power inverters, inverter chargers, batteries, and much more. www.tekrispower.com ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kurt Albershardt Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 12:29 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance Thanks! Appreciate the quick replies. On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 10:23 AM Jonathan Hill > wrote: Try Solar Cowboyz. They are very good at fixing inverters. (530) 477-8506. On Oct 29, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Lloyd Hoffstatter > wrote: Hello Kurt, Craig Wilburn at Phantom Power Services should be able to help. 425-501-7280 https://phantompowerservices.com/ Best of luck, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows From: Kurt Albershardt Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 11:46 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance Good morning, all. Long time no write. We have a client with an SW4024 that recently suffered a lightning hit. The inverter is actually working fine (those things were truly tough) but the cooling fan now runs continuously. The SW design team long ago scattered to the winds of Outback, Midnight, etc. Schneider is clueless. Anyone have a pointer to someone who might be able to assist with schematics or guidance on an emergency repair? We're planning to replace the unit next spring, when the sun is back in all of its glory. thank you~ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 18:51:02 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 16:51:02 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95813BAF-BA05-4288-9E10-08B363BA7D30@gmail.com> I recommend opening up the inverter and remove the fan wires. Then hook up some ac muffin fans to the right side so they turn on when the generator runs. Close off all the rest of the openings on right side. I e done this for failed internal fans. Usually they only need the fans during charging. It’s a quick and inexpensive fix vs boards and potential shipping and down time. Jay Peltz power. > On Oct 29, 2021, at 10:53 AM, Foxfire Energy wrote: > >  > try Tekris > > https://www.tekrispower.com/ > > Alternative Energy Solutions | Inverter Chargers | TekrisPower.com > Providing Alternative Energy Solutions for You. LOWEST PRICE GUARANTEED . To match price, must be in stock from an Authorized Retailer. TEKRIS Power Electronics Inc. offers you the best alternative energy solutions on the market. Shop for power inverters, inverter chargers, batteries, and much more. > www.tekrispower.com > > From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Kurt Albershardt > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 12:29 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance > > Thanks! > > Appreciate the quick replies. > > > >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2021 at 10:23 AM Jonathan Hill wrote: >> Try Solar Cowboyz. They are very good at fixing inverters. (530) 477-8506. >> >> On Oct 29, 2021, at 8:59 AM, Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: >> >> Hello Kurt, >> >> Craig Wilburn at Phantom Power Services should be able to help. >> 425-501-7280 >> https://phantompowerservices.com/ >> >> Best of luck, >> Lloyd >> >> Lloyd Hoffstatter >> Sunstruck Consulting >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows >> >> From: Kurt Albershardt >> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 11:46 AM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance >> >> Good morning, all. >> >> Long time no write. >> >> We have a client with an SW4024 that recently suffered a lightning hit. The inverter is actually working fine (those things were truly tough) but the cooling fan now runs continuously. >> >> The SW design team long ago scattered to the winds of Outback, Midnight, etc. Schneider is clueless. Anyone have a pointer to someone who might be able to assist with schematics or guidance on an emergency repair? >> >> We're planning to replace the unit next spring, when the sun is back in all of its glory. >> >> >> thank you~ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Fri Oct 29 19:13:48 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 19:13:48 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pretty easy fix, thermositor probably can be bought from Kris at TEKRIS power or Kris Stone. Probably the hardest thing about this repair is getting it off the wall. Tump > On Oct 29, 2021, at 11:59 AM, Lloyd Hoffstatter wrote: > > Hello Kurt, > > Craig Wilburn at Phantom Power Services should be able to help. > 425-501-7280 > https://phantompowerservices.com/ > > Best of luck, > Lloyd > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > Sunstruck Consulting > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows > > From: Kurt Albershardt > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 11:46 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW repair assistance > > Good morning, all. > > Long time no write. > > We have a client with an SW4024 that recently suffered a lightning hit. The inverter is actually working fine (those things were truly tough) but the cooling fan now runs continuously. > > The SW design team long ago scattered to the winds of Outback, Midnight, etc. Schneider is clueless. Anyone have a pointer to someone who might be able to assist with schematics or guidance on an emergency repair? > > We're planning to replace the unit next spring, when the sun is back in all of its glory. > > > thank you~ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 16:55:14 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 14:55:14 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] max voltage for simpliphi battery Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone know what the BMS shut off high voltage is for a simpliphi battery is? I can’t find it in the spec sheet Thanks jay From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 17:40:46 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 17:40:46 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] max voltage for simpliphi battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Simplifi use standard LiFeP04 3.2V cells, top voltage would be 3.65. I would set my max charge voltage to 3.4v On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 5:05 PM jay wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone know what the BMS shut off high voltage is for a simpliphi > battery is? > > I can’t find it in the spec sheet > > Thanks > jay > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 17:41:54 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 17:41:54 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] max voltage for simpliphi battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So a nominal 51.2V system should be charged to 54V On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 5:40 PM Chris Mason wrote: > Simplifi use standard LiFeP04 3.2V cells, top voltage would be 3.65. > I would set my max charge voltage to 3.4v > > > On Sat, Oct 30, 2021 at 5:05 PM jay wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone know what the BMS shut off high voltage is for a simpliphi >> battery is? >> >> I can’t find it in the spec sheet >> >> Thanks >> jay >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sun Oct 31 12:19:05 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2021 12:19:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Max charge for lithium batteries Message-ID: <8cb9e0aba2d15a52447be9c761c65142@redwoodalliance.org> I have a client that insists it is better not to charge lithium batteries to 100%. Is there any truth to this? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 13:03:27 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 13:03:27 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Max charge for lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <8cb9e0aba2d15a52447be9c761c65142@redwoodalliance.org> References: <8cb9e0aba2d15a52447be9c761c65142@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: There's no benefit to charging to 100%. If the charging parameters are set up correctly, you'll never really get to 100%. If you look at most prismatic cells, the absolutely maximum voltage is 3.65V. My systems are set up to charge to 3.4V or 54.4V. I take that as 100%. On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 12:19 PM wrote: > > I have a client that insists it is better not to charge lithium > batteries to 100%. Is there any truth to this? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Mon Nov 1 14:47:22 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 11:47:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Max charge for lithium batteries In-Reply-To: References: <8cb9e0aba2d15a52447be9c761c65142@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <74f65a63-2381-bcfe-7177-31ae296d761f@psln.com> Hey Folks,             From the SimpliPHI/Outback integration guide download, using an Outback (I assume any brand of) charge controller (EG: FM80, FM60, FM100), their chart shows absorbtion voltage at 56.4 for 51.2 nom PHI batteries with time set at 6 minutes, page 18.  If using the inverter, they show 54.0 volts for 2 hrs, page 13.             I found this at their website: https://simpliphipower.com/product-documentation/ then scroll down.  There may be a longevity advantage to not fully charging L-ion batteries but if you're only charging to 80% and not really supposed to go below 20% SOC then L-ion batteries aren't looking much better than FLA batteries in terms of capacity. Bill Feather River Solar Electric On 11/1/2021 10:03 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > There's no benefit to charging to 100%. If the charging parameters are > set up correctly, you'll never really get to 100%. > If you look at most prismatic cells, the absolutely maximum voltage is > 3.65V. My systems are set up to charge to 3.4V or 54.4V. I take that > as 100%. > > > On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 12:19 PM > wrote: > > > I have a client that insists it is better not to charge lithium > batteries to 100%. Is there any truth to this? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Mon Nov 1 13:53:56 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 10:53:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Disconnecting the negative lead on off-grip PV circuits. Battery disconnnects Message-ID: <208158c1eec41d35f5114cad48347b9a@mail.gmail.com> Friends: I recently studied the implications of replacing a negative grounded grid-interactive inverter with transformerless inverter or inverters. I had noticed language in 690.9(C)Informational note that indicates only the positive PV lead needs to be disconnected. August Goers kindly forwarded to me an article by Bill Brooks that explored this subject and other changes in the 2017 NEC regarding PV systems. Here is a link to that article. Now I want to learn how to apply this information to stand-alone systems. I asked one of the local AHJs about this and they appeared to have no awareness of any change in bonding requirements. I offered my preliminary opinion (see below) and they immediately adopted it as policy! Are those of you installing off-grid now disconnecting positive and negative? Here is my take on the subject: For stand-alone systems: For ground mount systems with not more than two source circuits, ground fault protection is not required (690.41(B) Exception). This means the negative lead can be solidly grounded. In such cases only the positive lead needs to be switched. For all other systems ground-fault protection is required. To provide ground fault protection, the negative cannot be solidly grounded. Therefore the positive and negative leads must be disconnected at the appropriately located disconnecting means (690.9(C) Informational note). Onto the subject of battery disconnects: I am probably behind the times on this one too. Are you providing externally accessible battery system disconnects? Thanks in advance for any input on these questions. William Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cometenergysystems at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 15:49:12 2021 From: cometenergysystems at gmail.com (Chris Mason) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 15:49:12 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Max charge for lithium batteries In-Reply-To: <74f65a63-2381-bcfe-7177-31ae296d761f@psln.com> References: <8cb9e0aba2d15a52447be9c761c65142@redwoodalliance.org> <74f65a63-2381-bcfe-7177-31ae296d761f@psln.com> Message-ID: You can absolutely charge to 100% and you can discharge to 100%. Lithium is in another world compared to Lead Acid. You don't see LA cars driving around. But you shouldn't leave Lithium at 100% for months on end, it can be detrimental. That's not likely to be an issue for solar systems. Your absorption voltages are only for non-485 inverters that don't know about Lithium. The question was whether you can charge to 100% and yes, you absolutely can, because 100% is no 100%, there is a recommended voltage and a do-not-exceed voltage. On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 2:43 PM frenergy wrote: > Hey Folks, > > From the SimpliPHI/Outback integration guide download, using > an Outback (I assume any brand of) charge controller (EG: FM80, FM60, > FM100), their chart shows absorbtion voltage at 56.4 for 51.2 nom PHI > batteries with time set at 6 minutes, page 18. If using the inverter, they > show 54.0 volts for 2 hrs, page 13. > > I found this at their website: > https://simpliphipower.com/product-documentation/ > > then scroll down. There may be a longevity advantage to not fully > charging L-ion batteries but if you're only charging to 80% and not really > supposed to go below 20% SOC then L-ion batteries aren't looking much > better than FLA batteries in terms of capacity. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > On 11/1/2021 10:03 AM, Chris Mason wrote: > > There's no benefit to charging to 100%. If the charging parameters are set > up correctly, you'll never really get to 100%. > If you look at most prismatic cells, the absolutely maximum voltage is > 3.65V. My systems are set up to charge to 3.4V or 54.4V. I take that as > 100%. > > > > On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 12:19 PM > wrote: > >> >> I have a client that insists it is better not to charge lithium >> batteries to 100%. Is there any truth to this? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > Chris Mason > Solar systems designer > Generac Generators Industrial technician > > Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar > Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 > WhatsApp 264.235.5670 > Skype: netconcepts > www.cometsolar.com > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-542264890670700673_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Mason Solar systems designer Generac Generators Industrial technician Comet Systems Ltd DBA Comet Solar Anguilla Cell 264.235.5670 WhatsApp 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts www.cometsolar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Nov 1 16:26:16 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:26:16 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses Message-ID: Hi All, I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, although it appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge SE11400A-US inverter. Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE TG3222R 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals were tight and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is indoors, and not exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. Has anyone seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter itself that occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the settings so that it actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. Cheers, Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com Mon Nov 1 16:45:46 2021 From: lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com (Lloyd Hoffstatter) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:45:46 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, My first thought would be a small nick in wire insulation going to ground, causing the fuse to fail over time. We had a similar situation with a much larger system where the culprit was hard to notice… Best regards, Lloyd Lloyd Hoffstatter Sunstruck Consulting Sent from Mail for Windows From: Dave Tedeyan Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 4:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses Hi All, I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, although it appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge SE11400A-US inverter. Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE TG3222R 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals were tight and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is indoors, and not exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. Has anyone seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter itself that occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the settings so that it actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. Cheers, Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 17:15:31 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 15:15:31 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <167A77DA-4197-44CB-B37D-DF77BD69DAFB@gmail.com> HI Dave, Which exact fuses do they have installed? I’m guessing they are blowing due to not being constant load rated fuses and summer higher temps. jay peltz power > On Nov 1, 2021, at 2:26 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, although it > appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge SE11400A-US inverter. > Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE TG3222R > 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals were tight > and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is indoors, and not > exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. > > But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. Has anyone > seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter itself that > occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the settings so that it > actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 18:05:06 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 15:05:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does this system have monitoring, what time of day is this happening, the monitoring site should show output at time of failure, what leg is tripping both or one side? You may want to look at the fuses they are using, rapid blow, slow blow, rated for the duty these are being used for. You can also use a data logger to get a better idea of what and when Jerry On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 1:45 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > Dave, > > > > My first thought would be a small nick in wire insulation going to ground, > causing the fuse to fail over time. > > We had a similar situation with a much larger system where the culprit was > hard to notice… > > > > Best regards, > > Lloyd > > > > Lloyd Hoffstatter > > Sunstruck Consulting > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows > > > > *From: *Dave Tedeyan > *Sent: *Monday, November 1, 2021 4:26 PM > *To: *RE-wrenches > *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, although > it > > appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge SE11400A-US > inverter. > > Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE > TG3222R > > 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals > were tight > > and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is > indoors, and not > > exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. > > > > But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. Has > anyone > > seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter > itself that > > occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the > settings so that it > > actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > -- > > [image: Logo] > > > *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* > > *p: *he | him | his > * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > *w:* www.sungineersolar.com > *c:* (607) 288-2898 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 1 18:30:52 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 18:30:52 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Enphase IQ7A Failure Issue Message-ID: We have a site with 34 microinverters at two orientations. It's a couple of months old. After about a month a couple of microinverters started acting up and dropping power production for no apparent reason, then finally started throwing Device Produced No Power issues and totally sopped producing but continued communicating. Slowly but surely additional units have dropped off. Now a few weeks later we have 24 of the 34 units with the same issue. Ten random units are completely fine. These are on various branch circuits and both orientations. There is no rhyme or reason to this issue that I can see. I have never seen such a widespread failure on a single site (since the M190) and we are not seeing failures of the IQ7A at higher than usual rates on any other site. It seems almost impossible that we got a bad batch and haven't seen a bunch of failures at at least one more site (it's more than a box full of quantity 18 but less than 36). Enphase Tier 2 tech support was no help at all (many many hours on the phone, on hold, etc, no real answers). It was supposedly escalated to a higher level, but I never heard back. I finally gave up and just demanded that they replace them all. I'm concerned that there is something else wrong here and might be wasting my time replacing 2 dozen units. We replaced two today and for the last half of the day they seemed to work flawlessly, but for how long they will continue to work is anyone's guess. Needless to say, the client is quite concerned. If you have had any similar experiences I would love to hear the resolution. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Nov 1 18:50:36 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 18:50:36 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The fuses are Ferraz Shawmut Trionic TR60R. 60A, 250V. I looked them up to find that they are time delay, RK5 type. I would imagine that there is monitoring, but not being my installation, I don't have access to it. That's a good idea though to get access to see when this is happening. I am also waiting to hear back as to whether it is both legs, or only one. I've been to the site only once so far, to initially diagnose the bad fuse. At the time, I was hoping that it was just a bad fuse since everything else looked okay. Lloyd, thanks for the insulation tip. Next time I head out there, I should pull out the wires and take a closer look. Unfortunately it's a line side tap, so I'm not excited about removing the tap, but may be worth it if I can't find anything else. Although come to think of it, I did find a ground fault in the wires for another system at the same site, so the original installers' wire pulling technique is certainly suspect. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:05 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Does this system have monitoring, what time of day is this happening, the > monitoring site should show output at time of failure, what leg is tripping > both or one side? You may want to look at the fuses they are using, rapid > blow, slow blow, rated for the duty these are being used for. You can also > use a data logger to get a better idea of what and when > > Jerry > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 1:45 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < > lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: > >> Dave, >> >> >> >> My first thought would be a small nick in wire insulation going to >> ground, causing the fuse to fail over time. >> >> We had a similar situation with a much larger system where the culprit >> was hard to notice… >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Lloyd >> >> >> >> Lloyd Hoffstatter >> >> Sunstruck Consulting >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for >> Windows >> >> >> >> *From: *Dave Tedeyan >> *Sent: *Monday, November 1, 2021 4:26 PM >> *To: *RE-wrenches >> *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses >> >> >> >> Hi All, >> >> >> >> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, although >> it >> >> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >> SE11400A-US inverter. >> >> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >> TG3222R >> >> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals >> were tight >> >> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >> indoors, and not >> >> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >> >> >> >> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. Has >> anyone >> >> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >> itself that >> >> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >> settings so that it >> >> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> -- >> >> [image: Logo] >> >> >> *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* >> >> *p: *he | him | his >> * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> *w:* www.sungineersolar.com >> *c:* (607) 288-2898 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 18:43:38 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:43:38 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Enphase IQ7A Failure Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: HI Jason, I had a neighbor replace his old units under the exchange program. less than 1 month later 1 appeared to die. Tech support said without hesitation it was the panel that died. I got called in and the unit was producing power but comm’s were out. These were the 190’s. More haggling later ( on my neighbors part) and they got sent a new inverter. Photo with clamp on meter wasn’t good enough, he had to switch a number around to somehow convince enphase. Fortunately they are a tilted on a flat roof, so it was kinda easy, but a total waste of time. I don’t blame the tech support person, I blame the higher ups who tell them what to say, and how to trouble shoot. Muppets Please let us know which versions and I presume that you tested them for output? Jay peltz power > On Nov 1, 2021, at 4:30 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > We have a site with 34 microinverters at two orientations. It's a couple of months old. After about a month a couple of microinverters started acting up and dropping power production for no apparent reason, then finally started throwing Device Produced No Power issues and totally sopped producing but continued communicating. Slowly but surely additional units have dropped off. Now a few weeks later we have 24 of the 34 units with the same issue. Ten random units are completely fine. These are on various branch circuits and both orientations. There is no rhyme or reason to this issue that I can see. > > I have never seen such a widespread failure on a single site (since the M190) and we are not seeing failures of the IQ7A at higher than usual rates on any other site. It seems almost impossible that we got a bad batch and haven't seen a bunch of failures at at least one more site (it's more than a box full of quantity 18 but less than 36). > > Enphase Tier 2 tech support was no help at all (many many hours on the phone, on hold, etc, no real answers). It was supposedly escalated to a higher level, but I never heard back. I finally gave up and just demanded that they replace them all. I'm concerned that there is something else wrong here and might be wasting my time replacing 2 dozen units. We replaced two today and for the last half of the day they seemed to work flawlessly, but for how long they will continue to work is anyone's guess. > > Needless to say, the client is quite concerned. > > If you have had any similar experiences I would love to hear the resolution. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Mon Nov 1 18:56:01 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 18:56:01 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Enphase IQ7A Failure Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, I recently did a microinverter swap of the old D380's to 54 of the IQ7 190's. Once it was commissioned I started seeing random MI's drop out, but not always the same ones. I am pretty sure that this was due to overvoltage. I measured the line voltage at 255v with the system turned off. Not being my original install, I am not sure if this was an issue before. I wonder if somehow the IQ series could be more sensitive to overvoltage? But anyway, try checking voltage... Cheers, Dave On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:31 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > We have a site with 34 microinverters at two orientations. It's a couple > of months old. After about a month a couple of microinverters started > acting up and dropping power production for no apparent reason, then > finally started throwing Device Produced No Power issues and totally sopped > producing but continued communicating. Slowly but surely additional units > have dropped off. Now a few weeks later we have 24 of the 34 units with the > same issue. Ten random units are completely fine. These are on various > branch circuits and both orientations. There is no rhyme or reason to this > issue that I can see. > > I have never seen such a widespread failure on a single site (since the > M190) and we are not seeing failures of the IQ7A at higher than usual rates > on any other site. It seems almost impossible that we got a bad batch and > haven't seen a bunch of failures at at least one more site (it's more than > a box full of quantity 18 but less than 36). > > Enphase Tier 2 tech support was no help at all (many many hours on the > phone, on hold, etc, no real answers). It was supposedly escalated to a > higher level, but I never heard back. I finally gave up and just demanded > that they replace them all. I'm concerned that there is something else > wrong here and might be wasting my time replacing 2 dozen units. We > replaced two today and for the last half of the day they seemed to work > flawlessly, but for how long they will continue to work is anyone's guess. > > Needless to say, the client is quite concerned. > > If you have had any similar experiences I would love to hear the > resolution. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Mon Nov 1 18:56:46 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 15:56:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would definitely check the insulation on the AC-side wiring as Lloyd mentioned. Sometimes small faults don't show up until there is moisture in the air (or conduit) or until max current conditions. As long as you have time delay fuses property sized, it would be rare for them to blow more than once or twice over a period of many years. You could try checking the insulation with a megger, but pulling it out and replacing it might be a more sure fire bet. If it still faults after that, at least you know the wire is good. August On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 3:50 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > The fuses are Ferraz Shawmut Trionic TR60R. 60A, 250V. I looked them up to > find that they are time delay, RK5 type. > > I would imagine that there is monitoring, but not being my installation, I > don't have access to it. That's a good idea though to get access to see > when this is happening. > > I am also waiting to hear back as to whether it is both legs, or only one. > I've been to the site only once so far, to initially diagnose the bad fuse. > At the time, I was hoping that it was just a bad fuse since everything else > looked okay. > > Lloyd, thanks for the insulation tip. Next time I head out there, I should > pull out the wires and take a closer look. Unfortunately it's a line side > tap, so I'm not excited about removing the tap, but may be worth it if I > can't find anything else. Although come to think of it, I did find a ground > fault in the wires for another system at the same site, so the original > installers' wire pulling technique is certainly suspect. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:05 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Does this system have monitoring, what time of day is this happening, the >> monitoring site should show output at time of failure, what leg is tripping >> both or one side? You may want to look at the fuses they are using, rapid >> blow, slow blow, rated for the duty these are being used for. You can also >> use a data logger to get a better idea of what and when >> >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 1:45 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < >> lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: >> >>> Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> My first thought would be a small nick in wire insulation going to >>> ground, causing the fuse to fail over time. >>> >>> We had a similar situation with a much larger system where the culprit >>> was hard to notice… >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Lloyd >>> >>> >>> >>> Lloyd Hoffstatter >>> >>> Sunstruck Consulting >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Mail for >>> Windows >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Dave Tedeyan >>> *Sent: *Monday, November 1, 2021 4:26 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches >>> *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>> although it >>> >>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>> >>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>> TG3222R >>> >>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals >>> were tight >>> >>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>> indoors, and not >>> >>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>> >>> >>> >>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>> Has anyone >>> >>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>> itself that >>> >>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>> settings so that it >>> >>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* >>> >>> *p: *he | him | his >>> * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> *w:* www.sungineersolar.com >>> *c:* (607) 288-2898 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 19:02:39 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:02:39 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would think that if there is an internet connection that a call to tech support would make things quicker, since they have access to internal error codes which usually give a pretty good indication of what the problem is, or at least usually help direct where your troubleshooting efforts are best directed... Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:50 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > The fuses are Ferraz Shawmut Trionic TR60R. 60A, 250V. I looked them up to > find that they are time delay, RK5 type. > > I would imagine that there is monitoring, but not being my installation, I > don't have access to it. That's a good idea though to get access to see > when this is happening. > > I am also waiting to hear back as to whether it is both legs, or only one. > I've been to the site only once so far, to initially diagnose the bad fuse. > At the time, I was hoping that it was just a bad fuse since everything else > looked okay. > > Lloyd, thanks for the insulation tip. Next time I head out there, I should > pull out the wires and take a closer look. Unfortunately it's a line side > tap, so I'm not excited about removing the tap, but may be worth it if I > can't find anything else. Although come to think of it, I did find a ground > fault in the wires for another system at the same site, so the original > installers' wire pulling technique is certainly suspect. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:05 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Does this system have monitoring, what time of day is this happening, the >> monitoring site should show output at time of failure, what leg is tripping >> both or one side? You may want to look at the fuses they are using, rapid >> blow, slow blow, rated for the duty these are being used for. You can also >> use a data logger to get a better idea of what and when >> >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 1:45 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < >> lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: >> >>> Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> My first thought would be a small nick in wire insulation going to >>> ground, causing the fuse to fail over time. >>> >>> We had a similar situation with a much larger system where the culprit >>> was hard to notice… >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Lloyd >>> >>> >>> >>> Lloyd Hoffstatter >>> >>> Sunstruck Consulting >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Mail for >>> Windows >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Dave Tedeyan >>> *Sent: *Monday, November 1, 2021 4:26 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches >>> *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>> although it >>> >>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>> >>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>> TG3222R >>> >>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals >>> were tight >>> >>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>> indoors, and not >>> >>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>> >>> >>> >>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>> Has anyone >>> >>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>> itself that >>> >>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>> settings so that it >>> >>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* >>> >>> *p: *he | him | his >>> * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> *w:* www.sungineersolar.com >>> *c:* (607) 288-2898 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 19:04:21 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:04:21 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Enphase IQ7A Failure Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It may be the modules not the inverters, in the past with good comms but little to no production l had blown diode bridges, actually melted the plastic box and exposed the straps that were connected to the jboxes. What modules did you use? Can you view them up close Jerry On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 3:31 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > We have a site with 34 microinverters at two orientations. It's a couple > of months old. After about a month a couple of microinverters started > acting up and dropping power production for no apparent reason, then > finally started throwing Device Produced No Power issues and totally sopped > producing but continued communicating. Slowly but surely additional units > have dropped off. Now a few weeks later we have 24 of the 34 units with the > same issue. Ten random units are completely fine. These are on various > branch circuits and both orientations. There is no rhyme or reason to this > issue that I can see. > > I have never seen such a widespread failure on a single site (since the > M190) and we are not seeing failures of the IQ7A at higher than usual rates > on any other site. It seems almost impossible that we got a bad batch and > haven't seen a bunch of failures at at least one more site (it's more than > a box full of quantity 18 but less than 36). > > Enphase Tier 2 tech support was no help at all (many many hours on the > phone, on hold, etc, no real answers). It was supposedly escalated to a > higher level, but I never heard back. I finally gave up and just demanded > that they replace them all. I'm concerned that there is something else > wrong here and might be wasting my time replacing 2 dozen units. We > replaced two today and for the last half of the day they seemed to work > flawlessly, but for how long they will continue to work is anyone's guess. > > Needless to say, the client is quite concerned. > > If you have had any similar experiences I would love to hear the > resolution. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 1 19:11:57 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:11:57 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Enphase IQ7A Failure Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's not the modules. Mission Solar 420s. I have swapped panels between working and non-working micros to eliminate this possibility. On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 7:04 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > It may be the modules not the inverters, in the past with good comms but > little to no production l had blown diode bridges, actually melted the > plastic box and exposed the straps that were connected to the jboxes. What > modules did you use? Can you view them up close > Jerry > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 3:31 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> We have a site with 34 microinverters at two orientations. It's a couple >> of months old. After about a month a couple of microinverters started >> acting up and dropping power production for no apparent reason, then >> finally started throwing Device Produced No Power issues and totally sopped >> producing but continued communicating. Slowly but surely additional units >> have dropped off. Now a few weeks later we have 24 of the 34 units with the >> same issue. Ten random units are completely fine. These are on various >> branch circuits and both orientations. There is no rhyme or reason to this >> issue that I can see. >> >> I have never seen such a widespread failure on a single site (since the >> M190) and we are not seeing failures of the IQ7A at higher than usual rates >> on any other site. It seems almost impossible that we got a bad batch and >> haven't seen a bunch of failures at at least one more site (it's more than >> a box full of quantity 18 but less than 36). >> >> Enphase Tier 2 tech support was no help at all (many many hours on the >> phone, on hold, etc, no real answers). It was supposedly escalated to a >> higher level, but I never heard back. I finally gave up and just demanded >> that they replace them all. I'm concerned that there is something else >> wrong here and might be wasting my time replacing 2 dozen units. We >> replaced two today and for the last half of the day they seemed to work >> flawlessly, but for how long they will continue to work is anyone's guess. >> >> Needless to say, the client is quite concerned. >> >> If you have had any similar experiences I would love to hear the >> resolution. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 1 19:14:43 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:14:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Enphase IQ7A Failure Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I considered the AC voltage but it's a stable 245V or so. Enphase couldn't see anything wrong with AC voltage on their end. I suggested a grid profile change, but they didn't see that as a necessary diagnostic step. On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:56 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi Jason, > I recently did a microinverter swap of the old D380's to 54 of the IQ7 > 190's. Once it was commissioned I started seeing random MI's drop out, but > not always the same ones. I am pretty sure that this was due to > overvoltage. I measured the line voltage at 255v with the system turned > off. > > Not being my original install, I am not sure if this was an issue before. > I wonder if somehow the IQ series could be more sensitive to overvoltage? > But anyway, try checking voltage... > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:31 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> We have a site with 34 microinverters at two orientations. It's a couple >> of months old. After about a month a couple of microinverters started >> acting up and dropping power production for no apparent reason, then >> finally started throwing Device Produced No Power issues and totally sopped >> producing but continued communicating. Slowly but surely additional units >> have dropped off. Now a few weeks later we have 24 of the 34 units with the >> same issue. Ten random units are completely fine. These are on various >> branch circuits and both orientations. There is no rhyme or reason to this >> issue that I can see. >> >> I have never seen such a widespread failure on a single site (since the >> M190) and we are not seeing failures of the IQ7A at higher than usual rates >> on any other site. It seems almost impossible that we got a bad batch and >> haven't seen a bunch of failures at at least one more site (it's more than >> a box full of quantity 18 but less than 36). >> >> Enphase Tier 2 tech support was no help at all (many many hours on the >> phone, on hold, etc, no real answers). It was supposedly escalated to a >> higher level, but I never heard back. I finally gave up and just demanded >> that they replace them all. I'm concerned that there is something else >> wrong here and might be wasting my time replacing 2 dozen units. We >> replaced two today and for the last half of the day they seemed to work >> flawlessly, but for how long they will continue to work is anyone's guess. >> >> Needless to say, the client is quite concerned. >> >> If you have had any similar experiences I would love to hear the >> resolution. >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 1 19:19:51 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 19:19:51 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Strange Enphase IQ7A Failure Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, tech support's dreaded "blaming it on the comms." Enphase sent me down that rabbit hole for a few hours of wasted time. Yes, this site has terrible interference issues, but that doesn't stop the micros from eventually getting good comms and reporting data regularly, if not slightly delayed. It doesn't explain power production dropping off. I was able to prove definitely that it wasn't a comms issue because the production CT reading and sum of the microinverter measurements were the same. Jason On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:53 PM jay wrote: > HI Jason, > > I had a neighbor replace his old units under the exchange program. less > than 1 month later 1 appeared to die. Tech support said without hesitation > it was the panel that died. I got called in and the unit was producing > power but comm’s were out. These were the 190’s. > > More haggling later ( on my neighbors part) and they got sent a new > inverter. > Photo with clamp on meter wasn’t good enough, he had to switch a number > around to somehow convince enphase. Fortunately they are a tilted on a > flat roof, so it was kinda easy, but a total waste of time. I don’t blame > the tech support person, I blame the higher ups who tell them what to say, > and how to trouble shoot. Muppets > > Please let us know which versions and I presume that you tested them for > output? > > Jay > > peltz power > > > > On Nov 1, 2021, at 4:30 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > We have a site with 34 microinverters at two orientations. It's a couple > of months old. After about a month a couple of microinverters started > acting up and dropping power production for no apparent reason, then > finally started throwing Device Produced No Power issues and totally sopped > producing but continued communicating. Slowly but surely additional units > have dropped off. Now a few weeks later we have 24 of the 34 units with the > same issue. Ten random units are completely fine. These are on various > branch circuits and both orientations. There is no rhyme or reason to this > issue that I can see. > > I have never seen such a widespread failure on a single site (since the > M190) and we are not seeing failures of the IQ7A at higher than usual rates > on any other site. It seems almost impossible that we got a bad batch and > haven't seen a bunch of failures at at least one more site (it's more than > a box full of quantity 18 but less than 36). > > Enphase Tier 2 tech support was no help at all (many many hours on the > phone, on hold, etc, no real answers). It was supposedly escalated to a > higher level, but I never heard back. I finally gave up and just demanded > that they replace them all. I'm concerned that there is something else > wrong here and might be wasting my time replacing 2 dozen units. We > replaced two today and for the last half of the day they seemed to work > flawlessly, but for how long they will continue to work is anyone's guess. > > Needless to say, the client is quite concerned. > > If you have had any similar experiences I would love to hear the > resolution. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 19:22:14 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 16:22:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had wire issues also but to take a month l would be surprised. If it does it in the early Am the inverter is acting up. GF or ArcFault should only be on the DC side On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 3:50 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > The fuses are Ferraz Shawmut Trionic TR60R. 60A, 250V. I looked them up to > find that they are time delay, RK5 type. > > I would imagine that there is monitoring, but not being my installation, I > don't have access to it. That's a good idea though to get access to see > when this is happening. > > I am also waiting to hear back as to whether it is both legs, or only one. > I've been to the site only once so far, to initially diagnose the bad fuse. > At the time, I was hoping that it was just a bad fuse since everything else > looked okay. > > Lloyd, thanks for the insulation tip. Next time I head out there, I should > pull out the wires and take a closer look. Unfortunately it's a line side > tap, so I'm not excited about removing the tap, but may be worth it if I > can't find anything else. Although come to think of it, I did find a ground > fault in the wires for another system at the same site, so the original > installers' wire pulling technique is certainly suspect. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 6:05 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Does this system have monitoring, what time of day is this happening, the >> monitoring site should show output at time of failure, what leg is tripping >> both or one side? You may want to look at the fuses they are using, rapid >> blow, slow blow, rated for the duty these are being used for. You can also >> use a data logger to get a better idea of what and when >> >> Jerry >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 1:45 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter < >> lloyd at sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote: >> >>> Dave, >>> >>> >>> >>> My first thought would be a small nick in wire insulation going to >>> ground, causing the fuse to fail over time. >>> >>> We had a similar situation with a much larger system where the culprit >>> was hard to notice… >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Lloyd >>> >>> >>> >>> Lloyd Hoffstatter >>> >>> Sunstruck Consulting >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Mail for >>> Windows >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Dave Tedeyan >>> *Sent: *Monday, November 1, 2021 4:26 PM >>> *To: *RE-wrenches >>> *Subject: *[RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>> although it >>> >>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>> >>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>> TG3222R >>> >>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals >>> were tight >>> >>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>> indoors, and not >>> >>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>> >>> >>> >>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>> Has anyone >>> >>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>> itself that >>> >>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>> settings so that it >>> >>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> [image: Logo] >>> >>> >>> *Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar* >>> >>> *p: *he | him | his >>> * a: *1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> *w:* www.sungineersolar.com >>> *c:* (607) 288-2898 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 1 20:24:17 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:24:17 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's the disconnect. We had dozens of this subpar disconnect design fail on Enphase systems. The 2 Pole has the same issue. GE gave us some nonsense answer that it's General Duty and not designed for continuous high power. Even 40A combined Enphase systems will blow a 60A fuse. What you will find is the fuse will blow on one side and then replacements will blow at decreasing intervals until it blows daily. Our experience is the left side (of the 2-pole) is far more problematic for some odd reason. It's not the fuse brand either. I believe the design fault is how the blades only hit a single contact on one side when they close. The Square D alternative has the blade slipping between two contacts. Sadly we have had to replace so many of these and most are supply side interconnections, which make it tricky and expensive. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 4:26 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi All, > > I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, although > it > appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge SE11400A-US > inverter. > Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE > TG3222R > 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals > were tight > and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is > indoors, and not > exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. > > But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. Has > anyone > seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter > itself that > occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the > settings so that it > actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. > > Cheers, > Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 1 20:30:05 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:30:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should also mention that it has nothing to do with ambient heat. This has occured in all seasons and with disconnects in direct sunlight on a south wall and disconnects in air conditioned garages. It's just a garbage product. We switched to Square D for 60A D222NRB fusible disconnects and are also using their 100A circuit breaker enclosures which are cost effective. The D223NRB is also a good fusible disconnect, but pricey. Jason On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > It's the disconnect. We had dozens of this subpar disconnect design fail > on Enphase systems. The 2 Pole has the same issue. > > GE gave us some nonsense answer that it's General Duty and not designed > for continuous high power. Even 40A combined Enphase systems will blow a > 60A fuse. > > What you will find is the fuse will blow on one side and then replacements > will blow at decreasing intervals until it blows daily. Our experience is > the left side (of the 2-pole) is far more problematic for some odd reason. > It's not the fuse brand either. > > I believe the design fault is how the blades only hit a single contact on > one side when they close. The Square D alternative has the blade slipping > between two contacts. > > Sadly we have had to replace so many of these and most are supply side > interconnections, which make it tricky and expensive. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 4:26 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, although >> it >> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >> SE11400A-US inverter. >> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >> TG3222R >> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals >> were tight >> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >> indoors, and not >> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >> >> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. Has >> anyone >> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >> itself that >> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >> settings so that it >> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 288-2898 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Nov 1 20:43:50 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 20:43:50 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See attached image. Notice the discoloration on the top of the left fuse. It's always the same thing, same place. Jason On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:30 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I should also mention that it has nothing to do with ambient heat. This > has occured in all seasons and with disconnects in direct sunlight on a > south wall and disconnects in air conditioned garages. > > It's just a garbage product. We switched to Square D for 60A D222NRB > fusible disconnects and are also using their 100A circuit breaker > enclosures which are cost effective. The D223NRB is also a good fusible > disconnect, but pricey. > > Jason > > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> It's the disconnect. We had dozens of this subpar disconnect design fail >> on Enphase systems. The 2 Pole has the same issue. >> >> GE gave us some nonsense answer that it's General Duty and not designed >> for continuous high power. Even 40A combined Enphase systems will blow a >> 60A fuse. >> >> What you will find is the fuse will blow on one side and then >> replacements will blow at decreasing intervals until it blows daily. Our >> experience is the left side (of the 2-pole) is far more problematic for >> some odd reason. It's not the fuse brand either. >> >> I believe the design fault is how the blades only hit a single contact on >> one side when they close. The Square D alternative has the blade slipping >> between two contacts. >> >> Sadly we have had to replace so many of these and most are supply side >> interconnections, which make it tricky and expensive. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 4:26 PM Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>> although it >>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>> TG3222R >>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals >>> were tight >>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>> indoors, and not >>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>> >>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>> Has anyone >>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>> itself that >>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>> settings so that it >>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> -- >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20210602_134215-resized-1024.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 321000 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 21:12:50 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2021 18:12:50 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bad switch On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 5:44 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > See attached image. Notice the discoloration on the top of the left fuse. > It's always the same thing, same place. > > Jason > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:30 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I should also mention that it has nothing to do with ambient heat. This >> has occured in all seasons and with disconnects in direct sunlight on a >> south wall and disconnects in air conditioned garages. >> >> It's just a garbage product. We switched to Square D for 60A D222NRB >> fusible disconnects and are also using their 100A circuit breaker >> enclosures which are cost effective. The D223NRB is also a good fusible >> disconnect, but pricey. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> It's the disconnect. We had dozens of this subpar disconnect design fail >>> on Enphase systems. The 2 Pole has the same issue. >>> >>> GE gave us some nonsense answer that it's General Duty and not designed >>> for continuous high power. Even 40A combined Enphase systems will blow a >>> 60A fuse. >>> >>> What you will find is the fuse will blow on one side and then >>> replacements will blow at decreasing intervals until it blows daily. Our >>> experience is the left side (of the 2-pole) is far more problematic for >>> some odd reason. It's not the fuse brand either. >>> >>> I believe the design fault is how the blades only hit a single contact >>> on one side when they close. The Square D alternative has the blade >>> slipping between two contacts. >>> >>> Sadly we have had to replace so many of these and most are supply side >>> interconnections, which make it tricky and expensive. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 4:26 PM Dave Tedeyan >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>>> although it >>>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>>> TG3222R >>>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals >>>> were tight >>>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>>> indoors, and not >>>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>>> >>>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>>> Has anyone >>>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>>> itself that >>>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>>> settings so that it >>>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> [image: Logo] >>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>> p: he | him | his >>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Nov 2 12:28:22 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:28:22 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is always the left fuse! Thanks all for the pointers. I'll double check the monitoring, but am thinking that I will be replacing the switch with a SQD, and replacing the taps and AC wires as well while I'm at it. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 9:13 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Bad switch > > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 5:44 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> See attached image. Notice the discoloration on the top of the left fuse. >> It's always the same thing, same place. >> >> Jason >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:30 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I should also mention that it has nothing to do with ambient heat. This >>> has occured in all seasons and with disconnects in direct sunlight on a >>> south wall and disconnects in air conditioned garages. >>> >>> It's just a garbage product. We switched to Square D for 60A D222NRB >>> fusible disconnects and are also using their 100A circuit breaker >>> enclosures which are cost effective. The D223NRB is also a good fusible >>> disconnect, but pricey. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> It's the disconnect. We had dozens of this subpar disconnect design >>>> fail on Enphase systems. The 2 Pole has the same issue. >>>> >>>> GE gave us some nonsense answer that it's General Duty and not designed >>>> for continuous high power. Even 40A combined Enphase systems will blow a >>>> 60A fuse. >>>> >>>> What you will find is the fuse will blow on one side and then >>>> replacements will blow at decreasing intervals until it blows daily. Our >>>> experience is the left side (of the 2-pole) is far more problematic for >>>> some odd reason. It's not the fuse brand either. >>>> >>>> I believe the design fault is how the blades only hit a single contact >>>> on one side when they close. The Square D alternative has the blade >>>> slipping between two contacts. >>>> >>>> Sadly we have had to replace so many of these and most are supply side >>>> interconnections, which make it tricky and expensive. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 4:26 PM Dave Tedeyan >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>>>> although it >>>>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>>>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>>>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>>>> TG3222R >>>>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The >>>>> terminals were tight >>>>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>>>> indoors, and not >>>>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>>>> >>>>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>>>> Has anyone >>>>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>>>> itself that >>>>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>>>> settings so that it >>>>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 2 12:53:13 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 12:53:13 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Trust me when I tell you that all of the line side conductors and taps are likely fine. It is unequivocally the switch contacts that are the issue. That said, I usually replace the conductors when there is any indication of overheating near the terminals. I have seen discolored copper, but it never gets bad enough to melt insulation. Jason On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, 12:28 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > It is always the left fuse! Thanks all for the pointers. I'll double check > the monitoring, but am thinking that I will be replacing the switch with a > SQD, and replacing the taps and AC wires as well while I'm at it. > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 9:13 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Bad switch >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 5:44 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> See attached image. Notice the discoloration on the top of the left >>> fuse. It's always the same thing, same place. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:30 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I should also mention that it has nothing to do with ambient heat. This >>>> has occured in all seasons and with disconnects in direct sunlight on a >>>> south wall and disconnects in air conditioned garages. >>>> >>>> It's just a garbage product. We switched to Square D for 60A D222NRB >>>> fusible disconnects and are also using their 100A circuit breaker >>>> enclosures which are cost effective. The D223NRB is also a good fusible >>>> disconnect, but pricey. >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's the disconnect. We had dozens of this subpar disconnect design >>>>> fail on Enphase systems. The 2 Pole has the same issue. >>>>> >>>>> GE gave us some nonsense answer that it's General Duty and not >>>>> designed for continuous high power. Even 40A combined Enphase systems will >>>>> blow a 60A fuse. >>>>> >>>>> What you will find is the fuse will blow on one side and then >>>>> replacements will blow at decreasing intervals until it blows daily. Our >>>>> experience is the left side (of the 2-pole) is far more problematic for >>>>> some odd reason. It's not the fuse brand either. >>>>> >>>>> I believe the design fault is how the blades only hit a single contact >>>>> on one side when they close. The Square D alternative has the blade >>>>> slipping between two contacts. >>>>> >>>>> Sadly we have had to replace so many of these and most are supply side >>>>> interconnections, which make it tricky and expensive. >>>>> >>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 4:26 PM Dave Tedeyan >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>>>>> although it >>>>>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>>>>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>>>>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>>>>> TG3222R >>>>>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The >>>>>> terminals were tight >>>>>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>>>>> indoors, and not >>>>>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>>>>> >>>>>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>>>>> Has anyone >>>>>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>>>>> itself that >>>>>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>>>>> settings so that it >>>>>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>>> the other: >>>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 2 15:09:05 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 15:09:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop Message-ID: I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the generator using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It worked flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the generator shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started shutting down his loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would start back up automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the inverters shut down and need to be restarted manually. He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. Any ideas given the sequence of events? Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 2 16:38:26 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:38:26 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ugh - no joke - we just found another one this morning with a blown fuse. Pic attached. It's really a nightmare. Check out how discolored the top of the left fuse is (again). Always the same fault... Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 8:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > See attached image. Notice the discoloration on the top of the left fuse. > It's always the same thing, same place. > > Jason > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:30 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I should also mention that it has nothing to do with ambient heat. This >> has occured in all seasons and with disconnects in direct sunlight on a >> south wall and disconnects in air conditioned garages. >> >> It's just a garbage product. We switched to Square D for 60A D222NRB >> fusible disconnects and are also using their 100A circuit breaker >> enclosures which are cost effective. The D223NRB is also a good fusible >> disconnect, but pricey. >> >> Jason >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> It's the disconnect. We had dozens of this subpar disconnect design fail >>> on Enphase systems. The 2 Pole has the same issue. >>> >>> GE gave us some nonsense answer that it's General Duty and not designed >>> for continuous high power. Even 40A combined Enphase systems will blow a >>> 60A fuse. >>> >>> What you will find is the fuse will blow on one side and then >>> replacements will blow at decreasing intervals until it blows daily. Our >>> experience is the left side (of the 2-pole) is far more problematic for >>> some odd reason. It's not the fuse brand either. >>> >>> I believe the design fault is how the blades only hit a single contact >>> on one side when they close. The Square D alternative has the blade >>> slipping between two contacts. >>> >>> Sadly we have had to replace so many of these and most are supply side >>> interconnections, which make it tricky and expensive. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 4:26 PM Dave Tedeyan >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>>> although it >>>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>>> TG3222R >>>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The terminals >>>> were tight >>>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>>> indoors, and not >>>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>>> >>>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>>> Has anyone >>>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>>> itself that >>>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>>> settings so that it >>>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> [image: Logo] >>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>> p: he | him | his >>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GE Switch.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 181016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 2 16:46:32 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 16:46:32 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whoa! I just got access to his OpticsRE. It says battery voltage reached as high as 66V!!! (48V Nominal). I don't know if that's true yet or a acrtually voltage metering issue. But it appears that when the generator stops the invert mode kicks in and immediately shuts down due to high battery voltage. I guess the inverters were coming back alive when the voltage settled to the normal range. But the homeowner reports that when he manually restarts the system the battery is around 54V. I'm not sure how long after the shutdown this occurs. So at this point I told him he needs to be very careful and make sure he's not cooking the batteries by testing with a volt meter during charging to see what's really going on. I'm concerned because the FNDC, both GS8048s and both FM100s all report abnormally high battery voltage. That suggest that the voltage is actually that high. But the charger setpoints are clearly set to defaults for absorb and float. I don't know why the voltage would blow past the setpoints. I misspoke in my initial email. He has AGS voltage start and SOC start set up. On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the generator > using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It worked > flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the generator > shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started shutting down his > loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would start back up > automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the inverters shut down > and need to be restarted manually. > > He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. > > Any ideas given the sequence of events? > > Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online > wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician > consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. > I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 16:50:32 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 13:50:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge inverter blowing fuses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: looks like one more failure, once they start there is no going back as the fuse retainer loses its spring On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 1:38 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Ugh - no joke - we just found another one this morning with a blown fuse. > Pic attached. It's really a nightmare. > > Check out how discolored the top of the left fuse is (again). Always the > same fault... > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 8:43 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> See attached image. Notice the discoloration on the top of the left fuse. >> It's always the same thing, same place. >> >> Jason >> >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:30 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I should also mention that it has nothing to do with ambient heat. This >>> has occured in all seasons and with disconnects in direct sunlight on a >>> south wall and disconnects in air conditioned garages. >>> >>> It's just a garbage product. We switched to Square D for 60A D222NRB >>> fusible disconnects and are also using their 100A circuit breaker >>> enclosures which are cost effective. The D223NRB is also a good fusible >>> disconnect, but pricey. >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 8:24 PM Jason Szumlanski < >>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >>> >>>> It's the disconnect. We had dozens of this subpar disconnect design >>>> fail on Enphase systems. The 2 Pole has the same issue. >>>> >>>> GE gave us some nonsense answer that it's General Duty and not designed >>>> for continuous high power. Even 40A combined Enphase systems will blow a >>>> 60A fuse. >>>> >>>> What you will find is the fuse will blow on one side and then >>>> replacements will blow at decreasing intervals until it blows daily. Our >>>> experience is the left side (of the 2-pole) is far more problematic for >>>> some odd reason. It's not the fuse brand either. >>>> >>>> I believe the design fault is how the blades only hit a single contact >>>> on one side when they close. The Square D alternative has the blade >>>> slipping between two contacts. >>>> >>>> Sadly we have had to replace so many of these and most are supply side >>>> interconnections, which make it tricky and expensive. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 1, 2021, 4:26 PM Dave Tedeyan >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> I am servicing a system that keeps blowing fuses on the AC side, >>>>> although it >>>>> appears that everything is sized correctly. It is a SolarEdge >>>>> SE11400A-US inverter. >>>>> Max continuous output current is 47.5A x 1.25 = 59.4A. There is a GE >>>>> TG3222R >>>>> 60A AC disconnect, and it is wired up with #6 THHN wire. The >>>>> terminals were tight >>>>> and there was no evidence of arcing or burning in the past. This is >>>>> indoors, and not >>>>> exposed to sunlight. No extra conductors are in the conduit. >>>>> >>>>> But they say that they need to replace a fuse roughly once per month. >>>>> Has anyone >>>>> seen this before? Could there be some kind of fault in the inverter >>>>> itself that >>>>> occasionally induces extra current? Is there any way to tweak the >>>>> settings so that it >>>>> actually produces a bit more than 11.4kw? I appreciate your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Dave >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> [image: Logo] >>>>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>>>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>>>> p: he | him | his >>>>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>>>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>>>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>> >>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Tue Nov 2 17:11:24 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 21:11:24 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Jason I sent on off line email to you I would like to assist if you do not mind. Lones From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, November 2, 2021 1:47 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Whoa! I just got access to his OpticsRE. It says battery voltage reached as high as 66V!!! (48V Nominal). I don't know if that's true yet or a acrtually voltage metering issue. But it appears that when the generator stops the invert mode kicks in and immediately shuts down due to high battery voltage. I guess the inverters were coming back alive when the voltage settled to the normal range. But the homeowner reports that when he manually restarts the system the battery is around 54V. I'm not sure how long after the shutdown this occurs. So at this point I told him he needs to be very careful and make sure he's not cooking the batteries by testing with a volt meter during charging to see what's really going on. I'm concerned because the FNDC, both GS8048s and both FM100s all report abnormally high battery voltage. That suggest that the voltage is actually that high. But the charger setpoints are clearly set to defaults for absorb and float. I don't know why the voltage would blow past the setpoints. I misspoke in my initial email. He has AGS voltage start and SOC start set up. On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the generator using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It worked flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the generator shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started shutting down his loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would start back up automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the inverters shut down and need to be restarted manually. He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. Any ideas given the sequence of events? Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Nov 2 17:44:42 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:44:42 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <599BD9BD-5665-44A0-9345-3BE63B0F7869@swnl.net> I would check at what voltage the Generator AC input set points are at. If the generator AC disconnect voltage is set to low say 100V then the inverters stay connected to that voltage then unlatch. Perhaps you are seeing a voltage spike at that time. Meters will show spikes not averages. > On Nov 2, 2021, at 4:46 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Whoa! I just got access to his OpticsRE. It says battery voltage reached as high as 66V!!! (48V Nominal). I don't know if that's true yet or a acrtually voltage metering issue. But it appears that when the generator stops the invert mode kicks in and immediately shuts down due to high battery voltage. I guess the inverters were coming back alive when the voltage settled to the normal range. But the homeowner reports that when he manually restarts the system the battery is around 54V. I'm not sure how long after the shutdown this occurs. > > So at this point I told him he needs to be very careful and make sure he's not cooking the batteries by testing with a volt meter during charging to see what's really going on. > > I'm concerned because the FNDC, both GS8048s and both FM100s all report abnormally high battery voltage. That suggest that the voltage is actually that high. But the charger setpoints are clearly set to defaults for absorb and float. I don't know why the voltage would blow past the setpoints. > > I misspoke in my initial email. He has AGS voltage start and SOC start set up. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the generator using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It worked flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the generator shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started shutting down his loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would start back up automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the inverters shut down and need to be restarted manually. > > He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. > > Any ideas given the sequence of events? > > Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Tue Nov 2 18:41:37 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 17:41:37 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <417F1C8E-9077-4E41-A0AC-829C0CEDE91C@mavericksolar.com> Sounds like the generator is connected to AC Out terminals (AC coupling). This will ‘work’ to charge batteries. It will function but the Radian has no way to regulate battery voltage. One would typically install an AUX controlled AC relay on a grid tie inverter set up for AC coupling. In your case, make sure the generator is landed on the generator terminals, AC2. Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Nov 2, 2021, at 3:46 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > Whoa! I just got access to his OpticsRE. It says battery voltage reached as high as 66V!!! (48V Nominal). I don't know if that's true yet or a acrtually voltage metering issue. But it appears that when the generator stops the invert mode kicks in and immediately shuts down due to high battery voltage. I guess the inverters were coming back alive when the voltage settled to the normal range. But the homeowner reports that when he manually restarts the system the battery is around 54V. I'm not sure how long after the shutdown this occurs. > > So at this point I told him he needs to be very careful and make sure he's not cooking the batteries by testing with a volt meter during charging to see what's really going on. > > I'm concerned because the FNDC, both GS8048s and both FM100s all report abnormally high battery voltage. That suggest that the voltage is actually that high. But the charger setpoints are clearly set to defaults for absorb and float. I don't know why the voltage would blow past the setpoints. > > I misspoke in my initial email. He has AGS voltage start and SOC start set up. > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the generator using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It worked flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the generator shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started shutting down his loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would start back up automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the inverters shut down and need to be restarted manually. >> >> He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. >> >> Any ideas given the sequence of events? >> >> Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 2 19:49:29 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 19:49:29 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop In-Reply-To: <417F1C8E-9077-4E41-A0AC-829C0CEDE91C@mavericksolar.com> References: <417F1C8E-9077-4E41-A0AC-829C0CEDE91C@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: It's been a long time, but I'm quite certain it was landed on the Gen (AC2) input bus. It worked fine for many months, so I can't imagine this is the issue, but it's worth double checking. This was a prewired dual Radian system from Wholesale Solar (or whatever they're called now). Jason On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, 6:41 PM Maverick Brown wrote: > Sounds like the generator is connected to AC Out terminals (AC coupling). > This will ‘work’ to charge batteries. It will function but the Radian has > no way to regulate battery voltage. One would typically install an AUX > controlled AC relay on a grid tie inverter set up for AC coupling. In your > case, make sure the generator is landed on the generator terminals, AC2. > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > *Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.* > * • Solar Commander Remote Power* > > * • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection *maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > > On Nov 2, 2021, at 3:46 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >  > Whoa! I just got access to his OpticsRE. It says battery voltage reached > as high as 66V!!! (48V Nominal). I don't know if that's true yet or a > acrtually voltage metering issue. But it appears that when the generator > stops the invert mode kicks in and immediately shuts down due to high > battery voltage. I guess the inverters were coming back alive when the > voltage settled to the normal range. But the homeowner reports that when he > manually restarts the system the battery is around 54V. I'm not sure how > long after the shutdown this occurs. > > So at this point I told him he needs to be very careful and make sure he's > not cooking the batteries by testing with a volt meter during charging to > see what's really going on. > > I'm concerned because the FNDC, both GS8048s and both FM100s all report > abnormally high battery voltage. That suggest that the voltage is actually > that high. But the charger setpoints are clearly set to defaults for absorb > and float. I don't know why the voltage would blow past the setpoints. > > I misspoke in my initial email. He has AGS voltage start and SOC start set > up. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the >> generator using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It >> worked flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the >> generator shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started >> shutting down his loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would >> start back up automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the >> inverters shut down and need to be restarted manually. >> >> He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. >> >> Any ideas given the sequence of events? >> >> Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online >> wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician >> consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. >> I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Tue Nov 2 20:53:41 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:53:41 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason Any chance of getting the optics site name? I would like to view it. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Tuesday, November 2, 2021 12:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the generator using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It worked flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the generator shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started shutting down his loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would start back up automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the inverters shut down and need to be restarted manually. He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. Any ideas given the sequence of events? Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 16:49:47 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2021 14:49:47 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9C185BD0-27F6-443F-B0C3-B47C46816497@gmail.com> You can find the temperature compensation voltage in the battery hot button. It might be a bad temp sensor jay peltz power > On Nov 2, 2021, at 2:46 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > > Whoa! I just got access to his OpticsRE. It says battery voltage reached as high as 66V!!! (48V Nominal). I don't know if that's true yet or a acrtually voltage metering issue. But it appears that when the generator stops the invert mode kicks in and immediately shuts down due to high battery voltage. I guess the inverters were coming back alive when the voltage settled to the normal range. But the homeowner reports that when he manually restarts the system the battery is around 54V. I'm not sure how long after the shutdown this occurs. > > So at this point I told him he needs to be very careful and make sure he's not cooking the batteries by testing with a volt meter during charging to see what's really going on. > > I'm concerned because the FNDC, both GS8048s and both FM100s all report abnormally high battery voltage. That suggest that the voltage is actually that high. But the charger setpoints are clearly set to defaults for absorb and float. I don't know why the voltage would blow past the setpoints. > > I misspoke in my initial email. He has AGS voltage start and SOC start set up. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the generator using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It worked flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the generator shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started shutting down his loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would start back up automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the inverters shut down and need to be restarted manually. > > He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. > > Any ideas given the sequence of events? > > Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 08:16:10 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 08:16:10 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian 8048's shutting down on generator stop In-Reply-To: <9C185BD0-27F6-443F-B0C3-B47C46816497@gmail.com> References: <9C185BD0-27F6-443F-B0C3-B47C46816497@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure if this thread is still going but sounds like a sticking input relay. That would explain why it would shut down but then work again. Momentarily generator would still be connected to the output when the inverter was supposed to go back to inverting. Should be an input relay error though. John B On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 9:41 PM jay wrote: > You can find the temperature compensation voltage in the battery hot > button. > It might be a bad temp sensor > > jay > > peltz power > > On Nov 2, 2021, at 2:46 PM, Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > Whoa! I just got access to his OpticsRE. It says battery voltage reached > as high as 66V!!! (48V Nominal). I don't know if that's true yet or a > acrtually voltage metering issue. But it appears that when the generator > stops the invert mode kicks in and immediately shuts down due to high > battery voltage. I guess the inverters were coming back alive when the > voltage settled to the normal range. But the homeowner reports that when he > manually restarts the system the battery is around 54V. I'm not sure how > long after the shutdown this occurs. > > So at this point I told him he needs to be very careful and make sure he's > not cooking the batteries by testing with a volt meter during charging to > see what's really going on. > > I'm concerned because the FNDC, both GS8048s and both FM100s all report > abnormally high battery voltage. That suggest that the voltage is actually > that high. But the charger setpoints are clearly set to defaults for absorb > and float. I don't know why the voltage would blow past the setpoints. > > I misspoke in my initial email. He has AGS voltage start and SOC start set > up. > > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 3:09 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I have a client (DIY) who has dual 8048's and he is starting the >> generator using both high load and low voltage settings with the AGS. It >> worked flawlessly for 9 months. Then for a couple of months when the >> generator shut down the lights would flicker. Eventually it started >> shutting down his loads completely for a couple of minutes and it would >> start back up automatically. Now when the generator shuts down the >> inverters shut down and need to be restarted manually. >> >> He said there is an error code but he never wrote it down. >> >> Any ideas given the sequence of events? >> >> Lead acid batteries. 20kW generator. Despite it being DIY from an online >> wholesaler, he did hire a licensed electrician and that electrician >> consulted with me a bit prior to installation, so it's a pretty good job. >> I'm thinking it's an internal Radian setting or fault causing this. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 15:41:34 2021 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:41:34 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets Message-ID: Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other products folks like? Thanks. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 3 16:15:58 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 16:15:58 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: E-Curbs here. Some roofing manufacturers require that you use their sealant pockets and sealant to maintain their warranty, and some require that you use their certified roofing contractors. Firestone is one of them for TPO roofs, and their TPO accessories are very expensive (even more than Chemlink). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 3:41 PM AE Solar wrote: > Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a > larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid > insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof > as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the > past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other > products folks like? > Thanks. > Adam > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.irish at suncommon.com Wed Nov 3 16:33:05 2021 From: jeff.irish at suncommon.com (Jeff Irish) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 16:33:05 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have a look at U2400s from Anchor Products. You can order them to match the type of roof you are dealing with. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:16 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > E-Curbs here. > > Some roofing manufacturers require that you use their sealant pockets and > sealant to maintain their warranty, and some require that you use their > certified roofing contractors. Firestone is one of them for TPO roofs, and > their TPO accessories are very expensive (even more than Chemlink). > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 3:41 PM AE Solar > wrote: > >> Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a >> larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid >> insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof >> as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the >> past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other >> products folks like? >> Thanks. >> Adam >> >> Adam Katzman >> Autonomous Energies >> PO Box 1245 >> Kingston, NY 12402 >> www.autonomousenergies.com >> (518) 567-1468 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Jeff Irish* | PE, Vice President SunCommon.com | *Main: *845-876-3767 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 3 16:47:47 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 16:47:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We have had mixed results with this. I like the product. Some roof manufacturers and roofing contractors have resisted despite Anchor's ability to use the exact same manufacturer's patches. Again, Firestone has been one of them, insisting on their own accessories. It does provide a very low profile option and they have a variety of base plates. They aren't cheap either, but can be lower price than a separate mount and portable sealer pocket. You can also order them with at least two sizes of threaded stud if you intend to use a post with internal threads. Jason On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:33 PM Jeff Irish wrote: > Have a look at U2400s from Anchor Products. You can order them to match > the type of roof you are dealing with. > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:16 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> E-Curbs here. >> >> Some roofing manufacturers require that you use their sealant pockets and >> sealant to maintain their warranty, and some require that you use their >> certified roofing contractors. Firestone is one of them for TPO roofs, and >> their TPO accessories are very expensive (even more than Chemlink). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 3:41 PM AE Solar >> wrote: >> >>> Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a >>> larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid >>> insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof >>> as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the >>> past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other >>> products folks like? >>> Thanks. >>> Adam >>> >>> Adam Katzman >>> Autonomous Energies >>> PO Box 1245 >>> Kingston, NY 12402 >>> www.autonomousenergies.com >>> >>> (518) 567-1468 >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Nov 3 17:04:15 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:04:15 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adam - This is a good topic. We are finding more and more flat roofs with rigid insulation installed over the wood decking to provide cricketing (for drainage) and insulation for the home. Installing standard stanchions is difficult because it is hard to find the rafters and also we need to use a hole saw to cut through the rigid insulation so the base of the stanchion has a solid deck to attach to. Very difficult all around! Nonetheless, we still mainly use Chemlink E-Curbs or work with a roofer to flash and seal. We have tried a few projects with the Unirac Flashloc RM product: https://unirac.com/flashloc-rm/ All in all, our crews like them although they are expensive. The tricky part is getting the engineering to work out since this type of product can be used to attach solely to the decking. We're also trying out the Anchor Products U2400 that Jeff mentioned. And, we're using the OMG Powergrip product on a commercial project: https://omgroofing.com/products/solar-mounts/powergrip-plus August Luminalt On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:33 PM Jeff Irish wrote: > Have a look at U2400s from Anchor Products. You can order them to match > the type of roof you are dealing with. > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:16 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> E-Curbs here. >> >> Some roofing manufacturers require that you use their sealant pockets and >> sealant to maintain their warranty, and some require that you use their >> certified roofing contractors. Firestone is one of them for TPO roofs, and >> their TPO accessories are very expensive (even more than Chemlink). >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 3:41 PM AE Solar >> wrote: >> >>> Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a >>> larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid >>> insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof >>> as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the >>> past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other >>> products folks like? >>> Thanks. >>> Adam >>> >>> Adam Katzman >>> Autonomous Energies >>> PO Box 1245 >>> Kingston, NY 12402 >>> www.autonomousenergies.com >>> (518) 567-1468 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > *Jeff Irish* | PE, Vice President > SunCommon.com | *Main: *845-876-3767 > 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > > SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment > and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from > the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is > to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for > good. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Nov 3 17:10:18 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 15:10:18 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004c01d7d0f7$3513f980$9f3bec80$@solarwork.com> We are not dealing with many flat roofs in snow country [thank goodness] but are very impressed with the Chemlink product hot or cold it appears to be very stable. Just spendy. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 3:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets Adam - This is a good topic. We are finding more and more flat roofs with rigid insulation installed over the wood decking to provide cricketing (for drainage) and insulation for the home. Installing standard stanchions is difficult because it is hard to find the rafters and also we need to use a hole saw to cut through the rigid insulation so the base of the stanchion has a solid deck to attach to. Very difficult all around! Nonetheless, we still mainly use Chemlink E-Curbs or work with a roofer to flash and seal. We have tried a few projects with the Unirac Flashloc RM product: https://unirac.com/flashloc-rm/ All in all, our crews like them although they are expensive. The tricky part is getting the engineering to work out since this type of product can be used to attach solely to the decking. We're also trying out the Anchor Products U2400 that Jeff mentioned. And, we're using the OMG Powergrip product on a commercial project: https://omgroofing.com/products/solar-mounts/powergrip-plus August Luminalt On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:33 PM Jeff Irish > wrote: Have a look at U2400s from Anchor Products. You can order them to match the type of roof you are dealing with. On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:16 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: E-Curbs here. Some roofing manufacturers require that you use their sealant pockets and sealant to maintain their warranty, and some require that you use their certified roofing contractors. Firestone is one of them for TPO roofs, and their TPO accessories are very expensive (even more than Chemlink). Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 3:41 PM AE Solar > wrote: Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other products folks like? Thanks. Adam Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jeff Irish | PE, Vice President SunCommon.com | Main: 845-876-3767 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Wed Nov 3 17:16:47 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 17:16:47 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point about the tapered insulation, August. However, sometimes you can use a larger base with a decking-only attachment without crushing the insulation. The IronRidge Flat Roof Attachment (FRA) is a large diameter base with a LOT of fastener holes. They also do angled fasteners and you can get really good uplift capability with a decking-only attachment. Jason On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 5:04 PM August Goers wrote: > Adam - > > This is a good topic. We are finding more and more flat roofs with rigid > insulation installed over the wood decking to provide cricketing (for > drainage) and insulation for the home. Installing standard stanchions is > difficult because it is hard to find the rafters and also we need to use a > hole saw to cut through the rigid insulation so the base of the stanchion > has a solid deck to attach to. Very difficult all around! Nonetheless, we > still mainly use Chemlink E-Curbs or work with a roofer to flash and seal. > > We have tried a few projects with the Unirac Flashloc RM product: > https://unirac.com/flashloc-rm/ > > All in all, our crews like them although they are expensive. The tricky > part is getting the engineering to work out since this type of product can > be used to attach solely to the decking. > > We're also trying out the Anchor Products U2400 that Jeff mentioned. And, > we're using the OMG Powergrip product on a commercial project: > https://omgroofing.com/products/solar-mounts/powergrip-plus > > > August > Luminalt > > > > On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:33 PM Jeff Irish > wrote: > >> Have a look at U2400s from Anchor Products. You can order them to match >> the type of roof you are dealing with. >> >> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:16 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> E-Curbs here. >>> >>> Some roofing manufacturers require that you use their sealant pockets >>> and sealant to maintain their warranty, and some require that you use their >>> certified roofing contractors. Firestone is one of them for TPO roofs, and >>> their TPO accessories are very expensive (even more than Chemlink). >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 3:41 PM AE Solar >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a >>>> larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid >>>> insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof >>>> as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the >>>> past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other >>>> products folks like? >>>> Thanks. >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Adam Katzman >>>> Autonomous Energies >>>> PO Box 1245 >>>> Kingston, NY 12402 >>>> www.autonomousenergies.com >>>> >>>> (518) 567-1468 >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Nov 3 17:28:40 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2021 14:28:40 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pitch Pockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <647BE33A-62A1-40E5-9A55-A99C56207497@millersolar.com> August: Here is one method for dealing with rigid insulation over decking https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/Technical_Procedures/Rigid_over_decking/_Rigid_over_decking.html The roofer installed “cant strips.” William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Nov 3, 2021, at 2:04 PM, August Goers wrote: > >  > Adam - > > This is a good topic. We are finding more and more flat roofs with rigid insulation installed over the wood decking to provide cricketing (for drainage) and insulation for the home. Installing standard stanchions is difficult because it is hard to find the rafters and also we need to use a hole saw to cut through the rigid insulation so the base of the stanchion has a solid deck to attach to. Very difficult all around! Nonetheless, we still mainly use Chemlink E-Curbs or work with a roofer to flash and seal. > > We have tried a few projects with the Unirac Flashloc RM product: https://unirac.com/flashloc-rm/ All in all, our crews like them although they are expensive. The tricky part is getting the engineering to work out since this type of product can be used to attach solely to the decking. > > We're also trying out the Anchor Products U2400 that Jeff mentioned. And, we're using the OMG Powergrip product on a commercial project: https://omgroofing.com/products/solar-mounts/powergrip-plus > > August > Luminalt > > > >> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 1:33 PM Jeff Irish wrote: >> Have a look at U2400s from Anchor Products. You can order them to match the type of roof you are dealing with. >> >>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 4:16 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> E-Curbs here. >>> >>> Some roofing manufacturers require that you use their sealant pockets and sealant to maintain their warranty, and some require that you use their certified roofing contractors. Firestone is one of them for TPO roofs, and their TPO accessories are very expensive (even more than Chemlink). >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 3:41 PM AE Solar wrote: >>>> Anyone have a favorite pitch pocket they use for flat roofs? We have a larger residential system with an EPDM flat roof (decking, 2" of rigid insulation, then EPDM). We are trying to keep the array as low to the roof as possible. We've used Chemlink E-Curbs to seal around stand-off's in the past, but figured I'd reach out and see if there are any other products folks like? >>>> Thanks. >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> Adam Katzman >>>> Autonomous Energies >>>> PO Box 1245 >>>> Kingston, NY 12402 >>>> www.autonomousenergies.com >>>> (518) 567-1468 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> Jeff Irish | PE, Vice President >> SunCommon.com | Main: 845-876-3767 >> 13 Hook Road, Rhinebeck, NY 12572 >> >> >> SunCommon believes that everyone has the right to a healthy environment >> and brighter future—and renewable energy is where it starts. Energy from >> the sun can power our lives and build vibrant communities. Our mission is >> to tear down barriers to clean energy and use our business as a force for good. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Nov 4 10:33:09 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 09:33:09 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Harris lithium battery as drop-in replacement for Outback RE2200 AGM? Message-ID: <186f01d7d188$e430a670$ac91f350$@solarcentex.com> Does anybody have insight as to the Harris lithium battery and its use as a replacement for a RE2200 AGM that needs replacement? Our setup is dual Radian 8048s for a full off-grid home with 14KW of solar. System has performed fine but the AGMs are not doing well holding charge and customer is ready to move to lithium. For those with background, did you use the multi-battery controller? Was the Mate and its BMS capability sufficient for lithium use? Here is the battery we are planning on and will use two of these : RELi48-31.0 - Harris Battery - Industrial & Commercial Battery Supplier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 13:25:40 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 12:25:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Harris lithium battery as drop-in replacement for Outback RE2200 AGM? In-Reply-To: <186f01d7d188$e430a670$ac91f350$@solarcentex.com> References: <186f01d7d188$e430a670$ac91f350$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: forgive me I am not the brightest bulb. But if you are replacing the Outback 2200 RE with 2100 AH and about 1100 AH usable, or @ 51V then 56 kWh with Lithium, 62 kWh, Do you have the charging capacity to charge at 280 amps? This is to allow full use of the solar array. One of the things I have found with LA batteries at high charge rates causes shortened battery life. Check with Harris for the maximum charge rate. You will be charging two in parallel the battery BMS will have to handle the BMS in each battery. Also, check the top balance current of the batteries to assure the low cells can be balanced in the perhaps 4 hours. The charge controllers will limit on voltage and the batteries will be in top balance current, is this ok with Harris? You will use multiple charge controllers, I try to set the voltages a little lower on two of the charge controllers to create a tapered charge. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 10:50 AM wrote: > Does anybody have insight as to the Harris lithium battery and its use as > a replacement for a RE2200 AGM that needs replacement? > > > > Our setup is dual Radian 8048s for a full off-grid home with 14KW of > solar. System has performed fine but the AGMs are not doing well holding > charge and customer is ready to move to lithium. > > > > For those with background, did you use the multi-battery controller? Was > the Mate and its BMS capability sufficient for lithium use? > > > > Here is the battery we are planning on and will use two of these : RELi48-31.0 > - Harris Battery - Industrial & Commercial Battery Supplier > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From scot.arey at solarcentex.com Thu Nov 4 13:35:33 2021 From: scot.arey at solarcentex.com (scot.arey at solarcentex.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 12:35:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Harris lithium battery as drop-in replacement for Outback RE2200 AGM? In-Reply-To: References: <186f01d7d188$e430a670$ac91f350$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: <427a01d7d1a2$5f0a80f0$1d1f82d0$@solarcentex.com> Thank you. “One of the things I have found with LA batteries at high charge rates causes shortened battery life. Check with Harris for the maximum charge rate. “ I had another opinion very similar to yours and had just reached out to Harris for this info. Will keep you all informed. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Thursday, November 4, 2021 12:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Harris lithium battery as drop-in replacement for Outback RE2200 AGM? forgive me I am not the brightest bulb. But if you are replacing the Outback 2200 RE with 2100 AH and about 1100 AH usable, or @ 51V then 56 kWh with Lithium, 62 kWh, Do you have the charging capacity to charge at 280 amps? This is to allow full use of the solar array. One of the things I have found with LA batteries at high charge rates causes shortened battery life. Check with Harris for the maximum charge rate. You will be charging two in parallel the battery BMS will have to handle the BMS in each battery. Also, check the top balance current of the batteries to assure the low cells can be balanced in the perhaps 4 hours. The charge controllers will limit on voltage and the batteries will be in top balance current, is this ok with Harris? You will use multiple charge controllers, I try to set the voltages a little lower on two of the charge controllers to create a tapered charge. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 10:50 AM > wrote: Does anybody have insight as to the Harris lithium battery and its use as a replacement for a RE2200 AGM that needs replacement? Our setup is dual Radian 8048s for a full off-grid home with 14KW of solar. System has performed fine but the AGMs are not doing well holding charge and customer is ready to move to lithium. For those with background, did you use the multi-battery controller? Was the Mate and its BMS capability sufficient for lithium use? Here is the battery we are planning on and will use two of these : RELi48-31.0 - Harris Battery - Industrial & Commercial Battery Supplier _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 27572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Nov 4 22:04:12 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 19:04:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Harris lithium battery as drop-in replacement for Outback RE2200 AGM? In-Reply-To: <186f01d7d188$e430a670$ac91f350$@solarcentex.com> References: <186f01d7d188$e430a670$ac91f350$@solarcentex.com> Message-ID: The only spec sheet I could find for those Harris batteries are quite weak in necessary details. Have they sent you anything regarding the fine details such as recommended charge and discharge rates as well as the way their warranty works? I looked around their website and couldn’t find anything else regarding their lithium models. Roughly what are they charging per watt hour? When you asked about the mult- battery controller are you referring to one of the Outback Flexmax varieties? Enjoy your evening, Nick > On Nov 4, 2021, at 7:33 AM, scot.arey at solarcentex.com wrote: > > Does anybody have insight as to the Harris lithium battery and its use as a replacement for a RE2200 AGM that needs replacement? > > Our setup is dual Radian 8048s for a full off-grid home with 14KW of solar. System has performed fine but the AGMs are not doing well holding charge and customer is ready to move to lithium. > > For those with background, did you use the multi-battery controller? Was the Mate and its BMS capability sufficient for lithium use? > > Here is the battery we are planning on and will use two of these : RELi48-31.0 - Harris Battery - Industrial & Commercial Battery Supplier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Fri Nov 5 18:49:43 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:49:43 -0400 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors Message-ID: I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached photo for an example. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20211105-184647_Business Suite.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 204726 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Nov 5 19:11:58 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:11:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46AAD488-AA3A-421D-858B-829EF9E21043@mavericksolar.com> Solar modules are crystals and no two crystals are the same. The textured glass helps to homogenize the appearance or maybe it makes it worse? Polycrystalline is worse than monocrystalline in the color variety. Newer BOB modules are far better than the old school blue polys. $0.02 Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Nov 5, 2021, at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > >  > I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached photo for an example. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot_20211105-184647_Business Suite.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 204726 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ryan.harkins at energycraft.com Fri Nov 5 19:32:39 2021 From: ryan.harkins at energycraft.com (Ryan Harkins) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:32:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors In-Reply-To: <46AAD488-AA3A-421D-858B-829EF9E21043@mavericksolar.com> References: <46AAD488-AA3A-421D-858B-829EF9E21043@mavericksolar.com> Message-ID: <22F289B8-F18D-4C30-A022-C20025359A6D@energycraft.com> I think it can best be described as Lots, some manufacturers actually state that if uniform color is desired you need to match lot numbers. That would ensure crystalline cells from the same batch and would be the most uniform in appearance. Beyond that, it’s just hard to know until they are up, and forever annoying if they don’t match well:/ Ryan Harkins Synergy Solar Stoughton, WI > On Nov 5, 2021, at 6:12 PM, Maverick Brown wrote: > > Solar modules are crystals and no two crystals are the same. The textured glass helps to homogenize the appearance or maybe it makes it worse? Polycrystalline is worse than monocrystalline in the color variety. Newer BOB modules are far better than the old school blue polys. > > $0.02 > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > • Solar Commander Remote Power > • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > 512-460-9825 > > >>> On Nov 5, 2021, at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>> >>  >> I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached photo for an example. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 21:26:59 2021 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:26:59 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Like any manufacturing process there are variations, especially solar cells, regardless of type ( poly vs mono). It is getting harder to the difference between poly and mono this days due to coating processes to improve efficiency. Cells can be sorted by output (watts) and or. Color matching. Most module manufacturers make sure the watts are matched otherwise a module will underperform, so generally from an output point of view there are probably little difference in wattage of each cell. Ie not measurable differences noted for color variations. That being said this is all based on flashing at room temps with no heating of the cell. The color variation and reflectivity of the cell surface will impact the cell temperature in real life. Is it enough to make a real performance issue, probably not. IMHO I have to wonder what other shortcuts a module manufacturer is taking if their cells are not color matched. It is not hard to color match and power match cells and it usually does not cost more to do so. The product looks more professional and should operate in the field at peak efficiency. All the module manufacturers I work with sort by color and power output. I am guessing the lower quality guys are not holding their suppliers to the same standard QC. However I have no data to verify that and like I said probably not a serious hit in performance. Bill Hoffer On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 3:50 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be > different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached > photo for an example. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 09:01:50 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 07:01:50 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <186BA259-BC46-405E-B45F-D284C88DCE68@gmail.com> Many OEMS outsource cells, is it possible the cells came from different cell companies? Jay Peltz power. > On Nov 5, 2021, at 7:27 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > >  > Like any manufacturing process there are variations, especially solar cells, regardless of type ( poly vs mono). It is getting harder to the difference between poly and mono this days due to coating processes to improve efficiency. > > Cells can be sorted by output (watts) and or. Color matching. Most module manufacturers make sure the watts are matched otherwise a module will underperform, so generally from an output point of view there are probably little difference in wattage of each cell. Ie not measurable differences noted for color variations. > > That being said this is all based on flashing at room temps with no heating of the cell. The color variation and reflectivity of the cell surface will impact the cell temperature in real life. Is it enough to make a real performance issue, probably not. > > IMHO I have to wonder what other shortcuts a module manufacturer is taking if their cells are not color matched. It is not hard to color match and power match cells and it usually does not cost more to do so. The product looks more professional and should operate in the field at peak efficiency. All the module manufacturers I work with sort by color and power output. I am guessing the lower quality guys are not holding their suppliers to the same standard QC. However I have no data to verify that and like I said probably not a serious hit in performance. > > Bill Hoffer > >> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 3:50 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >> I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached photo for an example. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 11:17:46 2021 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 08:17:46 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors In-Reply-To: <186BA259-BC46-405E-B45F-D284C88DCE68@gmail.com> References: <186BA259-BC46-405E-B45F-D284C88DCE68@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay That is possible. Also the sorted cells are packaged in boxes that do not match the number needed per module (and there is always some breakage during soldering and layup) so it is likely that they are mixing lots at some point or during repairs of strings that get broken. Mixing higher power cells with lower power will reduce the flash testing results and they will have to sell that module for less. Color matching not so much a problem with flash testing but will change the operational temp of cells and maybe not be as good as performers in the field. When I see different shades of cells I just think they are not paying attention to details in their process and I start to question where else they may be slipping up that really matters! Again no data to prove that gut feel is correct! Just think presentation is everything! On Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 7:54 AM Jay wrote: > Many OEMS outsource cells, is it possible the cells came from different > cell companies? > > Jay > Peltz power. > > On Nov 5, 2021, at 7:27 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > >  > Like any manufacturing process there are variations, especially solar > cells, regardless of type ( poly vs mono). It is getting harder to the > difference between poly and mono this days due to coating processes to > improve efficiency. > > Cells can be sorted by output (watts) and or. Color matching. Most > module manufacturers make sure the watts are matched otherwise a module > will underperform, so generally from an output point of view there are > probably little difference in wattage of each cell. Ie not measurable > differences noted for color variations. > > That being said this is all based on flashing at room temps with no > heating of the cell. The color variation and reflectivity of the cell > surface will impact the cell temperature in real life. Is it enough to > make a real performance issue, probably not. > > IMHO I have to wonder what other shortcuts a module manufacturer is taking > if their cells are not color matched. It is not hard to color match and > power match cells and it usually does not cost more to do so. The product > looks more professional and should operate in the field at peak > efficiency. All the module manufacturers I work with sort by color and > power output. I am guessing the lower quality guys are not holding their > suppliers to the same standard QC. However I have no data to verify that > and like I said probably not a serious hit in performance. > > Bill Hoffer > > On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 3:50 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be >> different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached >> photo for an example. >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Florida Solar Design Group >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 12:27:49 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 10:27:49 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <639DB28D-934A-47AE-9E0A-B8051C51C271@gmail.com> Thx bill A side question, i thought most of the color had to do with AR coatings and not the actual poly silicon? Jay > On Nov 6, 2021, at 9:18 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > >  > Jay > > That is possible. Also the sorted cells are packaged in boxes that do not match the number needed per module (and there is always some breakage during soldering and layup) so it is likely that they are mixing lots at some point or during repairs of strings that get broken. Mixing higher power cells with lower power will reduce the flash testing results and they will have to sell that module for less. Color matching not so much a problem with flash testing but will change the operational temp of cells and maybe not be as good as performers in the field. When I see different shades of cells I just think they are not paying attention to details in their process and I start to question where else they may be slipping up that really matters! Again no data to prove that gut feel is correct! Just think presentation is everything! > >> On Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 7:54 AM Jay wrote: >> Many OEMS outsource cells, is it possible the cells came from different cell companies? >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >>>> On Nov 5, 2021, at 7:27 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote: >>>> >>>  >>> Like any manufacturing process there are variations, especially solar cells, regardless of type ( poly vs mono). It is getting harder to the difference between poly and mono this days due to coating processes to improve efficiency. >>> >>> Cells can be sorted by output (watts) and or. Color matching. Most module manufacturers make sure the watts are matched otherwise a module will underperform, so generally from an output point of view there are probably little difference in wattage of each cell. Ie not measurable differences noted for color variations. >>> >>> That being said this is all based on flashing at room temps with no heating of the cell. The color variation and reflectivity of the cell surface will impact the cell temperature in real life. Is it enough to make a real performance issue, probably not. >>> >>> IMHO I have to wonder what other shortcuts a module manufacturer is taking if their cells are not color matched. It is not hard to color match and power match cells and it usually does not cost more to do so. The product looks more professional and should operate in the field at peak efficiency. All the module manufacturers I work with sort by color and power output. I am guessing the lower quality guys are not holding their suppliers to the same standard QC. However I have no data to verify that and like I said probably not a serious hit in performance. >>> >>> Bill Hoffer >>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 3:50 PM Jason Szumlanski wrote: >>>> I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached photo for an example. >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sunengser at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 12:56:27 2021 From: sunengser at gmail.com (Bill Hoffer) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 09:56:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors In-Reply-To: <639DB28D-934A-47AE-9E0A-B8051C51C271@gmail.com> References: <639DB28D-934A-47AE-9E0A-B8051C51C271@gmail.com> Message-ID: True, but that are doing all kinds of secret sauce doping trying to up the efficiencies too! On Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 9:48 AM Jay wrote: > Thx bill > > A side question, i thought most of the color had to do with AR coatings > and not the actual poly silicon? > > Jay > > On Nov 6, 2021, at 9:18 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: > >  > Jay > > That is possible. Also the sorted cells are packaged in boxes that do not > match the number needed per module (and there is always some breakage > during soldering and layup) so it is likely that they are mixing lots at > some point or during repairs of strings that get broken. Mixing higher > power cells with lower power will reduce the flash testing results and they > will have to sell that module for less. Color matching not so much a > problem with flash testing but will change the operational temp of cells > and maybe not be as good as performers in the field. When I see different > shades of cells I just think they are not paying attention to details in > their process and I start to question where else they may be slipping up > that really matters! Again no data to prove that gut feel is correct! > Just think presentation is everything! > > On Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 7:54 AM Jay wrote: > >> Many OEMS outsource cells, is it possible the cells came from different >> cell companies? >> >> Jay >> Peltz power. >> >> On Nov 5, 2021, at 7:27 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote: >> >>  >> Like any manufacturing process there are variations, especially solar >> cells, regardless of type ( poly vs mono). It is getting harder to the >> difference between poly and mono this days due to coating processes to >> improve efficiency. >> >> Cells can be sorted by output (watts) and or. Color matching. Most >> module manufacturers make sure the watts are matched otherwise a module >> will underperform, so generally from an output point of view there are >> probably little difference in wattage of each cell. Ie not measurable >> differences noted for color variations. >> >> That being said this is all based on flashing at room temps with no >> heating of the cell. The color variation and reflectivity of the cell >> surface will impact the cell temperature in real life. Is it enough to >> make a real performance issue, probably not. >> >> IMHO I have to wonder what other shortcuts a module manufacturer is >> taking if their cells are not color matched. It is not hard to color match >> and power match cells and it usually does not cost more to do so. The >> product looks more professional and should operate in the field at peak >> efficiency. All the module manufacturers I work with sort by color and >> power output. I am guessing the lower quality guys are not holding their >> suppliers to the same standard QC. However I have no data to verify that >> and like I said probably not a serious hit in performance. >> >> Bill Hoffer >> >> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 3:50 PM Jason Szumlanski < >> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: >> >>> I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be >>> different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached >>> photo for an example. >>> >>> Jason Szumlanski >>> Florida Solar Design Group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 16:54:05 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 14:54:05 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SER wire inside a house In-Reply-To: References: <639DB28D-934A-47AE-9E0A-B8051C51C271@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI All, I think it is OK to use SER wire inside a house but does anyone have any notations that prove otherwise? Its for a 3/0 3/0 3/0 between main and transfer and sub panel thanks Jay Peltz Power From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 23:31:32 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 20:31:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SER wire inside a house In-Reply-To: References: <639DB28D-934A-47AE-9E0A-B8051C51C271@gmail.com> Message-ID: SER is commonly used for feeders and branch circuits. For example feeder to a sub-panel, or branch circuit to a heat pump. > On Nov 6, 2021, at 1:54 PM, jay wrote: > > HI All, > > I think it is OK to use SER wire inside a house but does anyone have any notations that prove otherwise? > > Its for a 3/0 3/0 3/0 between main and transfer and sub panel > > thanks > > Jay > > Peltz Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Nov 7 12:33:58 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 12:33:58 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox remote power off Message-ID: I just installed one of these in a commercial building. I have a Solaredge inverter AC coupled through it. The AHJ wants me to install a first responder EPO switch outside to shut down the AC output of the inverter(which will totally kill all AC sources along with the normal AC utility/inverter disco). The skybox does not have a simple on/off connection for remote control of the inverter from what I see in the manual. I can use the 12v out aux contact to control a power relay to shut the inverter AC off manually. Any other way I can accomplish this? Thanks. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 14:41:33 2021 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2021 11:41:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback skybox remote power off In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you open terminals 4 and 12 it will turn off the Skybox, both PV input and AC as far as I know. Terminals 5 and 13 then will open on RSD to send a signal to whatever other devices need RSD. Brad On Sun, Nov 7, 2021 at 9:34 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > I just installed one of these in a commercial building. I have a Solaredge > inverter AC coupled through it. The AHJ wants me to install a first > responder EPO switch outside to shut down the AC output of the > inverter(which will totally kill all AC sources along with the normal AC > utility/inverter disco). The skybox does not have a simple on/off > connection for remote control of the inverter from what I see in the > manual. > > I can use the 12v out aux contact to control a power relay to shut the > inverter AC off manually. Any other way I can accomplish this? Thanks. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 12:35:20 2021 From: jamesrudolph99 at gmail.com (James Rudolph) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 07:35:20 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SER wire inside a house In-Reply-To: References: <639DB28D-934A-47AE-9E0A-B8051C51C271@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, It looks like it is approved in Article 338.10 (B)(4) if you comply with all the requirements 334 part II ( Romex/NM/NMC). I have only used it when connecting a exterior meter feeding an interior sub panel. When I was trained, I was also told that SER cable needs to terminate immediately after entering a dwelling ( usually in a panelboard). If it is buried in a finished wall it looks like you are ok. This is how most sub panels are connected in residential houses as well. [image: image.png] I hope this helps. James B. Rudolph Independent Energy C-36080 ES #10816 NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2009 #091209-155 C. 808.313.9701 On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 11:10 AM jay wrote: > HI All, > > I think it is OK to use SER wire inside a house but does anyone have any > notations that prove otherwise? > > Its for a 3/0 3/0 3/0 between main and transfer and sub panel > > thanks > > Jay > > Peltz Power > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 62357 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Tue Nov 9 14:04:57 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 11:04:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian-Mate3s Message-ID: <7B19E0A4-3AD9-489B-B9E9-299F09130B20@millersolar.com> Friends: If I have a Mate3s and no other Outback device, can I connect the Mate3s directly to a Radian without a hub? Thanks in advance. William Miller www.millersolar.com From danbob88 at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 15:00:27 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:00:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian-Mate3s In-Reply-To: <7B19E0A4-3AD9-489B-B9E9-299F09130B20@millersolar.com> References: <7B19E0A4-3AD9-489B-B9E9-299F09130B20@millersolar.com> Message-ID: William - yes you can. It's powered through the LAN cable from any Outback inverter or charge controller. I keep an old Mate3 (non-s) around just for that purpose, ditto with a Magnum RC, for those occasional systems with no monitoring that need settings programmed. Dan Fink On Tue, Nov 9, 2021, 12:26 William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > If I have a Mate3s and no other Outback device, can I connect the Mate3s > directly to a Radian without a hub? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Tue Nov 9 19:09:33 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 16:09:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Affordable 48v chargers, Phocos Anygrid Message-ID: Greetings Wrenches, With the large majority of my installations being full time off grid and LiFePO4 solutions I am more frequently observing that quite a few of my sites can make more use of their generator’s output if there was additional charging resources available. I’m fully aware of the problems of adding load on the generator that the main inverter/chargers cannot detect. For obvious reasons the most elegant solution would be to parallel additional inverters so that all the devices can work and communicate together but with some reasonable strategies and planning I believe I can still come up with some good solutions to charge the batteries up faster and not have to buy an extra Radian or VFX every time I need to do so. At the very least I intend to employ one of these solutions at my neighbor’s so that the amount of noise pollution that hits my head this winter is reduced somewhat. Has anyone else found a go to 48v charger for these scenarios? Seems like the larger high current chargers for industrial batteries lack the programmability I desire and cost similar to inverter/chargers. I’ve had a lot of experience with Iota over the years but would rather have something with higher current output and programmability. Right now it appears that the Phocos Anygrid may be a pretty decent option particularly on a cost/amp charger comparison. The 48v 5KW unit apparently employs up to 80 amps dc of charging. Sites with imbalance concerns would need to add a step down transformer to keep things balanced on the generator so I do realize there is that additional expense as well. This would be the first time I’ve played with this particular inverter which makes it even more ideal if I employ it at my neighbor’s where I can hike over to observe and fine tune. Idle consumption is kinda high so there would definitely be additional order of operation required to initiate charging but I do feel the benefits of greater fuel efficiency outweigh the hassles. This project aside I am quite intrigued by this inverter’s unique offerings in the way that it can be deployed. If anyone else has any feedback regarding the Anygrid I’d love to hear it. Also, I’m not very familiar with Victron’s products nor how they’re priced. Perhaps they’ve got some affordable chargers or inverter/chargers? Midnite DIY series, I’m a little confused as to how their chargers are rated or if the 48v version is even available right now? The price sure is nice. Thanks for the input and wisdom as always, Nick From tump at swnl.net Wed Nov 10 07:47:05 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 07:47:05 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Affordable 48v chargers, Phocos Anygrid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Victron seems to migrated to having their products sold by & supported by others, their customer service has taken a turn for the worse. That being said, they do have a 48VDC charger the Skylla TG48/50 The input range is 185-264 vac @ 45-65 Hz, so balancing your gen isn’t an issue but the 50 A charge might be a bit limiting. I have used these in the past and they do work well. The straight Skylla 24VDC chargers can be paralleled but it does not appear that the 48 TG series can be. Perhaps asantosbuch at victronenergy.com might be able to address this in more detail. > On Nov 9, 2021, at 7:09 PM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > > Greetings Wrenches, > > With the large majority of my installations being full time off grid and LiFePO4 solutions I am more frequently observing that quite a few of my sites can make more use of their generator’s output if there was additional charging resources available. I’m fully aware of the problems of adding load on the generator that the main inverter/chargers cannot detect. For obvious reasons the most elegant solution would be to parallel additional inverters so that all the devices can work and communicate together but with some reasonable strategies and planning I believe I can still come up with some good solutions to charge the batteries up faster and not have to buy an extra Radian or VFX every time I need to do so. At the very least I intend to employ one of these solutions at my neighbor’s so that the amount of noise pollution that hits my head this winter is reduced somewhat. > > Has anyone else found a go to 48v charger for these scenarios? Seems like the larger high current chargers for industrial batteries lack the programmability I desire and cost similar to inverter/chargers. I’ve had a lot of experience with Iota over the years but would rather have something with higher current output and programmability. Right now it appears that the Phocos Anygrid may be a pretty decent option particularly on a cost/amp charger comparison. The 48v 5KW unit apparently employs up to 80 amps dc of charging. Sites with imbalance concerns would need to add a step down transformer to keep things balanced on the generator so I do realize there is that additional expense as well. This would be the first time I’ve played with this particular inverter which makes it even more ideal if I employ it at my neighbor’s where I can hike over to observe and fine tune. Idle consumption is kinda high so there would definitely be additional order of operation required to initiate charging but I do feel the benefits of greater fuel efficiency outweigh the hassles. This project aside I am quite intrigued by this inverter’s unique offerings in the way that it can be deployed. If anyone else has any feedback regarding the Anygrid I’d love to hear it. > > Also, I’m not very familiar with Victron’s products nor how they’re priced. Perhaps they’ve got some affordable chargers or inverter/chargers? Midnite DIY series, I’m a little confused as to how their chargers are rated or if the 48v version is even available right now? The price sure is nice. > > Thanks for the input and wisdom as always, Nick > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Wed Nov 10 16:06:23 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 21:06:23 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian-Mate3s In-Reply-To: <7B19E0A4-3AD9-489B-B9E9-299F09130B20@millersolar.com> References: <7B19E0A4-3AD9-489B-B9E9-299F09130B20@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hi William The Mate 3S can be inserted directly into the left most pcb in the Radian Here is a picture from Page 33 in the manual Below https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/inverter_chargers/radian_8048a_4048a/gs_8048a_4048a_install.pdf [cid:image001.png at 01D7D633.C00CA7D0] -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Tuesday, November 9, 2021 11:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Radian-Mate3s CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Friends: If I have a Mate3s and no other Outback device, can I connect the Mate3s directly to a Radian without a hub? Thanks in advance. William Miller https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=5a25aa60-05be92a6-5a26a3eb-8658c81e29af-9cbc38862c44ba10&q=1&e=48795209-33c2-4e4e-8194-e5f813ba23bd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=4f2d9fec-10b6a72a-4f2e9667-8658c81e29af-cfda7230a6884037&q=1&e=48795209-33c2-4e4e-8194-e5f813ba23bd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fre-wrenches.org%2F List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=51a56f34-0e3e57f2-51a666bf-8658c81e29af-857a802414b765d4&q=1&e=48795209-33c2-4e4e-8194-e5f813ba23bd&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=8f2c2b6b-d0b713ad-8f2f22e0-8658c81e29af-a3df2cd01051c51b&q=1&e=48795209-33c2-4e4e-8194-e5f813ba23bd&u=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=33abcac1-6c30f207-33a8c34a-8658c81e29af-15b943d24bd337ad&q=1&e=48795209-33c2-4e4e-8194-e5f813ba23bd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=eecb04dd-b1503c1b-eec80d56-8658c81e29af-2b364af73262b6c2&q=1&e=48795209-33c2-4e4e-8194-e5f813ba23bd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org%2F This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 443877 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 10:20:14 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:20:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC module labor warranty Message-ID: <26B32ECE-A40B-4152-88F1-0983CA3FDCB4@gmail.com> Hi all Does anyone know how the labor warranty works with REC modules? What does it actually cover, what does it pay, and has anyone actually used it? Thanks Jay Peltz power. From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Nov 11 16:35:53 2021 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:35:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] REC module labor warranty In-Reply-To: <26B32ECE-A40B-4152-88F1-0983CA3FDCB4@gmail.com> References: <26B32ECE-A40B-4152-88F1-0983CA3FDCB4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <354229975.198526.1636666553453@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Nov 11 16:51:47 2021 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 13:51:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Flush Mount Sub-panel In-Reply-To: <2095682830.188674.1636571659984@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <2095682830.188674.1636571659984@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Nov 11 17:19:36 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 14:19:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Flush Mount Sub-panel In-Reply-To: <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: <7A9CD97F-C3F7-4022-9CA0-2D111E5039D2@millersolar.com> Peter: If you’d client does not trust you, quit. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Nov 11, 2021, at 1:51 PM, peter.parrish at calsolareng.com wrote: > >  > I have a long time customer who is looking to add a ground mount PV system ~5,500 Wdc to an existing roof mount system (also ~5,500 Wdc) which is tied into his main panel. > > He wants the new system to tie into a 150A 240/120 sub panel at his barn. He has two RVs and a mobile home used by ranch hands that are serviced by the sub-panel. He has lost the dead front, and I am not not sure the panel is even rated for outdoors. The label on the subpanel says > > Underwriters Laboratory Inc. - Class 075 (?) - 0373 - P-150 > CAT NO. TM1612RH Mod. 4 > For use with TM1612RH OR TM1615RH > Interior 150 AMP MAX > > I have told client that he should scrap the sub-panel and put in a new 200 A sub-panel employing a sub-meter to boot. > > I am getting push back and if these weren't long time customers, I'd walk away from this project. > > If I told him that the subpanel is not NOT RATED for outdoor use and he needed to find another dead front (which may be difficult to do), he may see wisdom of scrapping everything and starting from scratch. > > I do not see a NEMA 3R listing on the label, in fact the word "indoor" is located in the middle right hand side of the label. > > Any thoughts? > > I can provide photos of the sub-panel and the label -- if you provide me with an email address -- if that might help. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Thu Nov 11 18:24:47 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 15:24:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Flush Mount Sub-panel In-Reply-To: <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <2095682830.188674.1636571659984@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter - The cost for new equipment is a drop in the bucket compared to labor and just getting it right so it passes inspection. There's not much you can do if the front cover is missing and it looks like an indoor panel located in an outdoor location. Maybe you don't need an inspection? Even then, typically messing around with old equipment, finding breakers, etc, can easily negate the cost of just starting with new equipment. It may depend on how easy it would be to remove the old panel and install a new one. A decent outdoor panel with likely required main breaker (per NEC 225.31 unless you meet 225.33) is less than $200: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-200-Amp-20-Space-40-Circuit-Outdoor-Main-Breaker-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center-HOM2040M200PRB/204836343 I'm not sure about the sub-meter you're referring to - that's likely to add cost. Is that to meter the potential tenants in the RVs and mobile home? That gets a little complicated when you add solar. August Luminalt On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 1:51 PM petertor at pobox.com < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > I have a long time customer who is looking to add a ground mount PV system > ~5,500 Wdc to an existing roof mount system (also ~5,500 Wdc) which is tied > into his main panel. > > He wants the new system to tie into a 150A 240/120 sub panel at his barn. > He has two RVs and a mobile home used by ranch hands that are serviced by > the sub-panel. He has lost the dead front, and I am not not sure the panel > is even rated for outdoors. The label on the subpanel says > > Underwriters Laboratory Inc. - Class 075 (?) - 0373 - P-150 > CAT NO. TM1612RH Mod. 4 > For use with TM1612RH OR TM1615RH > Interior 150 AMP MAX > > I have told client that he should scrap the sub-panel and put in a new 200 > A sub-panel employing a sub-meter to boot. > > I am getting push back and if these weren't long time customers, I'd walk > away from this project. > > If I told him that the subpanel is not NOT RATED for outdoor use and he > needed to find another dead front (which may be difficult to do), he may > see wisdom of scrapping everything and starting from scratch. > > I do not see a NEMA 3R listing on the label, in fact the word "indoor" is > located in the middle right hand side of the label. > > Any thoughts? > > I can provide photos of the sub-panel and the label -- if you provide me > with an email address -- if that might help. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Nov 11 19:54:15 2021 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 16:54:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Flush Mount Sub-panel In-Reply-To: References: <2095682830.188674.1636571659984@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1114155765.280547.1636678455199@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Thu Nov 11 20:05:30 2021 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:05:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Flush Mount Sub-panel In-Reply-To: <7A9CD97F-C3F7-4022-9CA0-2D111E5039D2@millersolar.com> References: <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <7A9CD97F-C3F7-4022-9CA0-2D111E5039D2@millersolar.com> Message-ID: <1773683862.280848.1636679130627@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solar at 4fast.net Thu Nov 11 23:36:33 2021 From: solar at 4fast.net (Bob-O Schultze) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 20:36:33 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Please change my email Message-ID: To: rekindaguy at yahoo.com Thanks! Bob-O From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 11:55:47 2021 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:55:47 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Whisper 200 replacement options? Message-ID: Wrenches, I’m looking for some advice on current small wind turbine options. I have a long time off-grid PV customer who also has a 20-year-old Whisper 200 turbine on a 75' tower. The turbine has been out of commission for some years due to failed bearings and now my customer wants to replace it. I’m struggling to find an appropriately sized replacement for him that isn’t some no-name piece of import junk— but I’m also not a wind expert and I haven’t kept up with the changes in the field over the last few years. Some web searching seems to reveal that several former big name manufacturers are now out of business and the options are few. Any advice on where to look and what might be good replacement options for this fellow? Thanks in advance! Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant. NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Fri Nov 12 14:16:53 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 12:16:53 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 remote shut down switch Message-ID: <003c01d7d7f9$daa8c0c0$8ffa4240$@solarwork.com> Oh Wise Older Ones! I have a client that wants to be able to turn off his SW4024 remotely, say with a 2 wire single gang switch? I cannot remember & it does not appear in the manual he has as to how this can happen. Any memories or suggestions? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Nov 12 16:36:11 2021 From: allan at sindelarsolar.com (Allan Sindelar) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 14:36:11 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW4024 remote shut down switch In-Reply-To: <003c01d7d7f9$daa8c0c0$8ffa4240$@solarwork.com> References: <003c01d7d7f9$daa8c0c0$8ffa4240$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <5806677C-2967-4C60-948E-6F1E5CDCA1B3@sindelarsolar.com> How remote? I have just picked up a consignment Sw4024 remote with cable. Interested? I don’t think that there’s a remote switch option other than this. Allan > On Nov 12, 2021, at 12:17 PM, Dana Orzel wrote: > >  > Oh Wise Older Ones! > > I have a client that wants to be able to turn off his SW4024 remotely, say with a 2 wire single gang switch? > I cannot remember & it does not appear in the manual he has as to how this can happen. > > Any memories or suggestions? > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marco at pvthawaii.com Sun Nov 14 19:36:23 2021 From: marco at pvthawaii.com (Marco Mangelsdorf) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2021 14:36:23 -1000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for a solar tech in Bend, Oregon Message-ID: Aloha all, I’m looking for a Wrench in Bend, OR. Please contact me offline if you know anyone. Mahalo, marco -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Nov 16 08:09:33 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 08:09:33 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Florida Solar Roof Truss Affidavit - origins and applicability Message-ID: This is mostly for Florida wrenches, but there may be some wider insight and similarities with other jurisdictions. In Florida, many jurisdictions require a solar contractor to sign an affidavit stating that solar panels are installed per certain guidelines, typically that they meet some Florida Solar Energy Center standard and that they are installed in or around trusses and the system weight does not exceed 5 lb per square foot. The affiant signs this document under the penalty of perjury in order to avoid the requirement for a detailed inspection of the structural attachments. I have been on a one-man mission trying to get these documents revised in each jurisdiction where I work. My problem with the document in most jurisdictions is twofold: 1. The affidavit often references an FSEC design guide that is intended for solar pool heating and solar domestic water heating systems. It is not applicable to photovoltaic systems, yet jurisdictions ask you to certify that a PV system was installed per this design guide. 2. There are numerous products on the market and instances where a decking only attachment is appropriately used without attaching to a truss. There is nothing I can find in the International Building Code or Florida Building Code that requires a truss attachment. If the product being used is designed for decking only and if the system is designed by a professional engineer, I don't see any requirement for a truss attachment. Futhermore, a commercial roof may not even have trusses, per se. A concrete screw or anchor may be used, or a ballasted or semi-ballasted mounting system could work. Purlin attachments are common. Base plates with screws in steel decking can work. Perhaps the most common exception to truss attachments here are standing seam clamps. Anyway, I'm trying to figure out the origin of these documents and how they were originally applied to both solar thermal and PV systems. I don't have a problem signing them if they are accurate and what I'm signing is not perjurious. But I'm seeing contractors blindly doing just that every day. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From peter.parrish at calsolareng.com Tue Nov 16 09:02:59 2021 From: peter.parrish at calsolareng.com (petertor@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 06:02:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Flush Mount Sub-panel In-Reply-To: References: <2095682830.188674.1636571659984@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: <72676987.249257.1637071379865@mailbusiness.ionos.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Nov 16 09:16:07 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 06:16:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Flush Mount Sub-panel In-Reply-To: <72676987.249257.1637071379865@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <2095682830.188674.1636571659984@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <72676987.249257.1637071379865@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: Homeowners often get stuck (somewhat unbeknownst to them) continuing with unpermitted work where shortcuts are taken and the whole situation becomes less and less code compliant and less safe. Once that occurs, it gets even harder to bite the bullet and get a permit for work on their property. It’s a slippery slope. On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:03 AM petertor at pobox.com < peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > Hello August, > > I agree with everything you mentioned. And yes the submeter is meant to > capture the tenants' electricity usage. > > I will give my client 'till Thursday 11/18 to advise me of their intent. > > It would be a shame to lose a client of long standing. > > We shall see what we shall see. > > - Peter > > On 11/11/2021 3:24 PM August Goers wrote: > > > Hi Peter - The cost for new equipment is a drop in the bucket compared to > labor and just getting it right so it passes inspection. There's not much > you can do if the front cover is missing and it looks like an indoor panel > located in an outdoor location. Maybe you don't need an inspection? Even > then, typically messing around with old equipment, finding breakers, etc, > can easily negate the cost of just starting with new equipment. It may > depend on how easy it would be to remove the old panel and install a new > one. > > A decent outdoor panel with likely required main breaker (per NEC 225.31 > unless you meet 225.33) is less than $200: > > > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-200-Amp-20-Space-40-Circuit-Outdoor-Main-Breaker-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center-HOM2040M200PRB/204836343 > > I'm not sure about the sub-meter you're referring to - that's likely to > add cost. Is that to meter the potential tenants in the RVs and mobile > home? That gets a little complicated when you add solar. > > August > Luminalt > > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 1:51 PM petertor at pobox.com < > peter.parrish at calsolareng.com> wrote: > > I have a long time customer who is looking to add a ground mount PV system > ~5,500 Wdc to an existing roof mount system (also ~5,500 Wdc) which is tied > into his main panel. > > He wants the new system to tie into a 150A 240/120 sub panel at his barn. > He has two RVs and a mobile home used by ranch hands that are serviced by > the sub-panel. He has lost the dead front, and I am not not sure the panel > is even rated for outdoors. The label on the subpanel says > > Underwriters Laboratory Inc. - Class 075 (?) - 0373 - P-150 > CAT NO. TM1612RH Mod. 4 > For use with TM1612RH OR TM1615RH > Interior 150 AMP MAX > > I have told client that he should scrap the sub-panel and put in a new 200 > A sub-panel employing a sub-meter to boot. > > I am getting push back and if these weren't long time customers, I'd walk > away from this project. > > If I told him that the subpanel is not NOT RATED for outdoor use and he > needed to find another dead front (which may be difficult to do), he may > see wisdom of scrapping everything and starting from scratch. > > I do not see a NEMA 3R listing on the label, in fact the word "indoor" is > located in the middle right hand side of the label. > > Any thoughts? > > I can provide photos of the sub-panel and the label -- if you provide me > with an email address -- if that might help. > > - Peter > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > > President, California Solar Engineering > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood > Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List > Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email > address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List > rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or > update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- August Goers Luminalt o: 415.792.6666 m: 415.559.1525 august at luminalt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Tue Nov 16 09:36:50 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 09:36:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Older Flush Mount Sub-panel In-Reply-To: <72676987.249257.1637071379865@mailbusiness.ionos.com> References: <2095682830.188674.1636571659984@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <1491054654.199322.1636667507698@mailbusiness.ionos.com> <72676987.249257.1637071379865@mailbusiness.ionos.com> Message-ID: It is TOO bad to have your integrity questioned at this point in your relationship. Time verses $$$$$, installing the correct & compliant equipment should be a no brainer for your client. There are times that I indicate to the clients, their homeowners insurance will not cover things if there is a fire and you & your insurance will be liable. Yeah I know you probably have made your client aware of all these things but…..sometimes the best job is the one you walk away from. Just offering some support from someone who has “lost” a few clients in the past…. but it comes with a sigh of relief. My $0.02 T > On Nov 16, 2021, at 9:02 AM, petertor at pobox.com wrote: > > Hello August, > > I agree with everything you mentioned. And yes the submeter is meant to capture the tenants' electricity usage. > > I will give my client 'till Thursday 11/18 to advise me of their intent. > > It would be a shame to lose a client of long standing. > > We shall see what we shall see. > > - Peter >> On 11/11/2021 3:24 PM August Goers wrote: >> >> >> Hi Peter - The cost for new equipment is a drop in the bucket compared to labor and just getting it right so it passes inspection. There's not much you can do if the front cover is missing and it looks like an indoor panel located in an outdoor location. Maybe you don't need an inspection? Even then, typically messing around with old equipment, finding breakers, etc, can easily negate the cost of just starting with new equipment. It may depend on how easy it would be to remove the old panel and install a new one. >> >> A decent outdoor panel with likely required main breaker (per NEC 225.31 unless you meet 225.33) is less than $200: >> >> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-200-Amp-20-Space-40-Circuit-Outdoor-Main-Breaker-Plug-On-Neutral-Load-Center-HOM2040M200PRB/204836343 >> >> I'm not sure about the sub-meter you're referring to - that's likely to add cost. Is that to meter the potential tenants in the RVs and mobile home? That gets a little complicated when you add solar. >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 1:51 PM petertor at pobox.com > wrote: >> I have a long time customer who is looking to add a ground mount PV system ~5,500 Wdc to an existing roof mount system (also ~5,500 Wdc) which is tied into his main panel. >> >> He wants the new system to tie into a 150A 240/120 sub panel at his barn. He has two RVs and a mobile home used by ranch hands that are serviced by the sub-panel. He has lost the dead front, and I am not not sure the panel is even rated for outdoors. The label on the subpanel says >> >> Underwriters Laboratory Inc. - Class 075 (?) - 0373 - P-150 >> CAT NO. TM1612RH Mod. 4 >> For use with TM1612RH OR TM1615RH >> Interior 150 AMP MAX >> >> I have told client that he should scrap the sub-panel and put in a new 200 A sub-panel employing a sub-meter to boot. >> >> I am getting push back and if these weren't long time customers, I'd walk away from this project. >> >> If I told him that the subpanel is not NOT RATED for outdoor use and he needed to find another dead front (which may be difficult to do), he may see wisdom of scrapping everything and starting from scratch. >> >> I do not see a NEMA 3R listing on the label, in fact the word "indoor" is located in the middle right hand side of the label. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> I can provide photos of the sub-panel and the label -- if you provide me with an email address -- if that might help. >> >> - Peter >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, California Solar Engineering >> 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. >> President, SolarGnosis >> 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 >> South Pasadena, CA 91030 >> (323) 839-6108 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D. > President, SolarGnosis > 1107 Fair Oaks Blvd Ste. 351 > South Pasadena, CA 91030 > (323) 839-6108 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 20:16:38 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:16:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2v agm batteries Message-ID: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> I’m wondering what folks recommend for 2v agm in the 1500 +/- amp hr range. The old and pretty impressive absolite batteries finally are dying at close to 25 years. It’s for an 12v system that is functioning well, the owner doesn’t need/want to change to 24/48v. These batteries are installed in the house. From what I’ve read about lithium off gassing, in the rare event of failure release phosphoryl fluoride which is extremely toxic, which makes it not an option. And no moving the batteries outside to some other location is not an option either. Thanks in advance Jay Peltz power From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Fri Nov 19 11:17:49 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:17:49 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Florida Solar Roof Truss Affidavit - origins and applicability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ef805eb-2ccb-b4e9-4162-cef2655d701b@entech-engineering.com> Good luck with that dysfunctionality.  In Rhode Island, it states that a PE has to sign a statement attesting to the structural integrity if non engineered racking system is used.  We used engineered systems as most everyone does. However, we now have a new Building Official that has reported me as I am an ME and not an Structural Engineer even though we are using an engineered system and the  State form says PE only.  We have gone from bad to worse.  I have been doing this work for over 20 years and now because of this new person, who seems to want to mark his territory, I no longer can do this work. Three engineering degrees, one a Masters, a PE and still not good enough for RI. Chris On 11/16/2021 8:09 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote: > This is mostly for Florida wrenches, but there may be some wider > insight and similarities with other jurisdictions. > > In Florida, many jurisdictions require a solar contractor to sign an > affidavit stating that solar panels are installed per certain > guidelines, typically that they meet some Florida Solar Energy Center > standard and that they are installed in or around trusses and the > system weight does not exceed 5 lb per square foot. The affiant signs > this document under the penalty of perjury in order to avoid the > requirement for a detailed inspection of the structural attachments. > > I have been on a one-man mission trying to get these documents revised > in each jurisdiction where I work. My problem with the document in > most jurisdictions is twofold: > > 1. The affidavit often references an FSEC design guide that is > intended for solar pool heating and solar domestic water heating > systems. It is not applicable to photovoltaic systems, yet > jurisdictions ask you to certify that a PV system was installed per > this design guide. > 2. There are numerous products on the market and instances where a > decking only attachment is appropriately used without attaching to a > truss. There is nothing I can find in the International Building Code > or Florida Building Code that requires a truss attachment. If the > product being used is designed for decking only and if the system is > designed by a professional engineer, I don't see any requirement for a > truss attachment. Futhermore, a commercial roof may not even have > trusses, per se. A concrete screw or anchor may be used, or a > ballasted or semi-ballasted mounting system could work. Purlin > attachments are common. Base plates with screws in steel decking can > work. Perhaps the most common exception to truss attachments here are > standing seam clamps. > > > Anyway, I'm trying to figure out the origin of these documents and how > they were originally applied to both solar thermal and PV systems. I > don't have a problem signing them if they are accurate and what I'm > signing is not perjurious. But I'm seeing contractors blindly doing > just that every day. > > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Nov 18 20:50:00 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 17:50:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2v agm batteries In-Reply-To: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2E112C89-2B70-426D-96EA-A2579BC47D73@millersolar.com> Jay: The Fullriver 1150-2 have worked pretty well for me: https://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/dc1150-2/ Solar Biz has given me good pricing: https://www.thesolarbiz.com/ William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Nov 18, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Jay wrote: > > I’m wondering what folks recommend for 2v agm in the 1500 +/- amp hr range. > > The old and pretty impressive absolite batteries finally are dying at close to 25 years. > > It’s for an 12v system that is functioning well, the owner doesn’t need/want to change to 24/48v. > > These batteries are installed in the house. From what I’ve read about lithium off gassing, in the rare event of failure release phosphoryl fluoride which is extremely toxic, which makes it not an option. And no moving the batteries outside to some other location is not an option either. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Nov 21 10:42:43 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 10:42:43 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion "dark start" procedure Message-ID: Hi, Can someone out there briefly describe the dark start steps for a BI 48v 2.0 system? One of my systems went down to 0% SOC due to a generator failure. I assume the BMUs have to be powered down and back up to reboot, but could use some guidance. No info is available in the manual. thanks. Being a Sunday, no tech support either. -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Sun Nov 21 11:16:53 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2021 11:16:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue Ion "dark start" procedure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please disregard my last request. I found the BI dark start procedure online. On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 10:42 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > Hi, > Can someone out there briefly describe the dark start steps for a BI 48v > 2.0 system? One of my systems went down to 0% SOC due to a generator > failure. > I assume the BMUs have to be powered down and back up to reboot, but could > use some guidance. No info is available in the manual. thanks. Being a > Sunday, no tech support either. > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at solarandwindfx.com Mon Nov 22 14:24:27 2021 From: chris at solarandwindfx.com (Chris Schaefer) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 14:24:27 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2v agm batteries In-Reply-To: <2E112C89-2B70-426D-96EA-A2579BC47D73@millersolar.com> References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> <2E112C89-2B70-426D-96EA-A2579BC47D73@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hey Jay, Been testing a set of FireFly 2v 900 Ah that are outdoors here in Western NY. Two years on them thus far with favorable results. Christopher On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 12:14 PM William Miller wrote: > Jay: > > The Fullriver 1150-2 have worked pretty well for me: > > https://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/dc1150-2/ > > Solar Biz has given me good pricing: > > https://www.thesolarbiz.com/ > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > > On Nov 18, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Jay wrote: > > I’m wondering what folks recommend for 2v agm in the 1500 +/- amp hr > range. > > The old and pretty impressive absolite batteries finally are dying at > close to 25 years. > > It’s for an 12v system that is functioning well, the owner doesn’t > need/want to change to 24/48v. > > These batteries are installed in the house. From what I’ve read about > lithium off gassing, in the rare event of failure release phosphoryl > fluoride which is extremely toxic, which makes it not an option. And no > moving the batteries outside to some other location is not an option > either. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Chris Schaefer’s *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 * *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: chris at solarandwindfx.com * Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbassett2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 19:49:00 2021 From: bbassett2 at gmail.com (Bradley Bassett) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:49:00 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2v agm batteries In-Reply-To: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd recommend the best battery that is close to those is the Deka UnigyII. Top notch quality, similar rack. Made in USA. I've been curious about the FireFly batteries, but not much in the way of reviews for solar use. RV use gets mixed reviews, but are mostly for the smaller units. Brad On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 5:35 PM Jay wrote: > I’m wondering what folks recommend for 2v agm in the 1500 +/- amp hr > range. > > The old and pretty impressive absolite batteries finally are dying at > close to 25 years. > > It’s for an 12v system that is functioning well, the owner doesn’t > need/want to change to 24/48v. > > These batteries are installed in the house. From what I’ve read about > lithium off gassing, in the rare event of failure release phosphoryl > fluoride which is extremely toxic, which makes it not an option. And no > moving the batteries outside to some other location is not an option > either. > > Thanks in advance > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Nov 23 10:24:26 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:24:26 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage In-Reply-To: References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c39c56a-f0f8-8c06-d94a-b7e66c2cca75@entech-engineering.com> I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode back up service panel that is in the main building. If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter array so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use the battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage circuits, which would disable its heating system, etc. We just want to disconnect the microinverter circuit in the garage subpanel. Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would imagine a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a microinverter array? Thanks for any help. Chris --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From august at luminalt.com Tue Nov 23 10:39:40 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 07:39:40 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage In-Reply-To: <1c39c56a-f0f8-8c06-d94a-b7e66c2cca75@entech-engineering.com> References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> <1c39c56a-f0f8-8c06-d94a-b7e66c2cca75@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the garage? The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown initiation device) to be on the exterior of the building. Would it work to put the RSID on the garage exterior? You could route your PV circuits to a switch or switches on the exterior of the garage on the way down to the sub it ties into. You could also use a shunt trip breaker(s) for the PV circuit(s). If for some reason you need to have the RSID on the main house, it gets trickier. Might need to trench? August Luminalt On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:24 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed microinverter > system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an Outback Radian multimode > system in the main building that has the garage on the back up service > panel in the main building. > > Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode back up > service panel that is in the main building. > > If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter array so it > does not overcharge the battery system. If we use the battery voltage > relay, we will take out all the garage circuits, which would disable its > heating system, etc. We just want to disconnect the microinverter circuit > in the garage subpanel. > > Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would imagine a > transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a microinverter array? > > > Thanks for any help. Chris > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Glenn.burt at glbcc.com Tue Nov 23 11:46:11 2021 From: Glenn.burt at glbcc.com (Glenn Burt) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 11:46:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage Message-ID: <5i1eipjrngrgr60gson4kehe.1637685822353@email.lge.com> Run a branch circuit from the utility powered main service panel to the garage. Use this to power a contactor that will drop out on loss of grid, controlling one leg of the microinverter input to the AC coupled system.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.------ Original message------From: Christopher WarfelDate: Tue, Nov 23, 2021 10:24 AMTo: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode back up service panel that is in the main building. If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter array so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use the battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage circuits, which would disable its heating system, etc. We just want to disconnect the microinverter circuit in the garage subpanel. Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would imagine a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a microinverter array? Thanks for any help. Chris --                                          Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                                             401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Nov 23 12:40:17 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:40:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage In-Reply-To: References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> <1c39c56a-f0f8-8c06-d94a-b7e66c2cca75@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <5b4ebdd5-3b41-9501-b2a0-bdc7ea3c82d9@entech-engineering.com> It was tough for me to figure out how to write my email and not make it confusing. What I am worried about is the microinverter system operating when the utility goes down and the microinverters continuing to operate and charge the batteries as a load.  I need to disconnect the microinverter circuit only when the batteries are fully charged in grid isolated mode.  All the ways I can think of that would normally work to deenergize the microinverters automatically based upon battery voltage won't work.  I can submit a drawing if that would help. I am trying not to run another conductor circuit from the house to the garage.  I realize that would solve the problem, but it is an expensive solution.  English is my foreign native language. On 11/23/2021 10:39 AM, August Goers wrote: > Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a > detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the garage? > The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown initiation device) to > be on the exterior of the building. Would it work to put the RSID on > the garage exterior? You could route your PV circuits to a switch or > switches on the exterior of the garage on the way down to the sub it > ties into. You could also use a shunt trip breaker(s) for the PV > circuit(s). If for some reason you need to have the RSID on the main > house, it gets trickier. Might need to trench? > > August > Luminalt > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:24 AM Christopher Warfel > wrote: > > I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed > microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an > Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has the > garage on the back up service panel in the main building. > > Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode back > up service panel that is in the main building. > > If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter array > so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use the > battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage circuits, > which would disable its heating system, etc. We just want to > disconnect the microinverter circuit in the garage subpanel. > > Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would imagine > a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a microinverter > array? > > > Thanks for any help. Chris > > > > > -- >                         Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 11:09:51 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 08:09:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98CF0678-C3C6-48DE-AC28-85F654472521@gmail.com> You can use the frequency shift in the radian inverter to shut down the micros. Yes gets to 64hz but probably not going to happen very often? Or you could find a remote controlled relay controlled via the radian aux relay. Jay Peltz power. > On Nov 23, 2021, at 7:39 AM, August Goers wrote: > >  > Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the garage? The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown initiation device) to be on the exterior of the building. Would it work to put the RSID on the garage exterior? You could route your PV circuits to a switch or switches on the exterior of the garage on the way down to the sub it ties into. You could also use a shunt trip breaker(s) for the PV circuit(s). If for some reason you need to have the RSID on the main house, it gets trickier. Might need to trench? > > August > Luminalt > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:24 AM Christopher Warfel wrote: >> I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. >> >> Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode back up service panel that is in the main building. >> >> If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter array so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use the battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage circuits, which would disable its heating system, etc. We just want to disconnect the microinverter circuit in the garage subpanel. >> >> Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would imagine a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a microinverter array? >> >> >> >> Thanks for any help. Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Warfel >> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >> 401-466-8978 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Tue Nov 23 13:05:26 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:05:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage In-Reply-To: <5b4ebdd5-3b41-9501-b2a0-bdc7ea3c82d9@entech-engineering.com> References: <5b4ebdd5-3b41-9501-b2a0-bdc7ea3c82d9@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <788296E5-E481-4C8A-8B84-B61E98C611E0@gmail.com> Hi Christopher If it is a newer radian then it has an ac coupling mode. When the batteries start to reach the charge set point, the inverter starts pushing the hz up snd up. Once it gets to 64, all new GT inverters shut off, including enphase. Voltage drops, hz drops, 5 minute delay, rinse and repeat. It’s a a great feature for infrequent control needs. This only comes into play when the grid is down and the batteries are full. I hope this helps. Jay Peltz power. > On Nov 23, 2021, at 9:42 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > >  > It was tough for me to figure out how to write my email and not make it confusing. > > What I am worried about is the microinverter system operating when the utility goes down and the microinverters continuing to operate and charge the batteries as a load. I need to disconnect the microinverter circuit only when the batteries are fully charged in grid isolated mode. All the ways I can think of that would normally work to deenergize the microinverters automatically based upon battery voltage won't work. I can submit a drawing if that would help. I am trying not to run another conductor circuit from the house to the garage. I realize that would solve the problem, but it is an expensive solution. English is my foreign native language. > > > > On 11/23/2021 10:39 AM, August Goers wrote: >> Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the garage? The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown initiation device) to be on the exterior of the building. Would it work to put the RSID on the garage exterior? You could route your PV circuits to a switch or switches on the exterior of the garage on the way down to the sub it ties into. You could also use a shunt trip breaker(s) for the PV circuit(s). If for some reason you need to have the RSID on the main house, it gets trickier. Might need to trench? >> >> August >> Luminalt >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:24 AM Christopher Warfel wrote: >>> I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. >>> >>> Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode back up service panel that is in the main building. >>> >>> If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter array so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use the battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage circuits, which would disable its heating system, etc. We just want to disconnect the microinverter circuit in the garage subpanel. >>> >>> Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would imagine a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a microinverter array? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for any help. Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Warfel >>> ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >>> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>> 401-466-8978 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Wed Nov 24 12:38:27 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:38:27 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage In-Reply-To: <5b4ebdd5-3b41-9501-b2a0-bdc7ea3c82d9@entech-engineering.com> References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> <1c39c56a-f0f8-8c06-d94a-b7e66c2cca75@entech-engineering.com> <5b4ebdd5-3b41-9501-b2a0-bdc7ea3c82d9@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Hello Chris Sorry for the slow response I foolishly took a couple of days of vacation. I see this system is on Optics. The GS4048A inverter can do AC Coupling with frequency shift. It will need to be upgraded from the current rev of 001.006.063 to 001.007.070 below is a link to that firmware. https://outbackpower.com/resources-mobile/technical-support/firmware-updates/item/radian-series-firmware-updates Once the new firmware is installed will need to change the default Installer password of 1732 to a different 4 digit number after doing so In the inverter you can go to the menu and enable AC Coupling. Below are instructions for changing the default Installer Password. https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/system_management/mate3s/mate3s_programmingguide_web.pdf please see S-16 in the manual above. Below is a link to the AC Coupling App Note https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/ac_coupling_radian.pdf I too speak English as my native foreign language below is a link to Fowlers Modern English Usage It has helped me to spoke more lucidly and communicate more better. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fowlers+modern+english+usage&crid=3AUWAC3TGDBWQ&sprefix=fowlers+%2Caps%2C277&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_2_8 Thanks for using OutBack Chris you have my # if you have questions. Have a good Thanksgiving and Stay Safe. Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 9:40 AM To: August Goers ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. It was tough for me to figure out how to write my email and not make it confusing. What I am worried about is the microinverter system operating when the utility goes down and the microinverters continuing to operate and charge the batteries as a load. I need to disconnect the microinverter circuit only when the batteries are fully charged in grid isolated mode. All the ways I can think of that would normally work to deenergize the microinverters automatically based upon battery voltage won't work. I can submit a drawing if that would help. I am trying not to run another conductor circuit from the house to the garage. I realize that would solve the problem, but it is an expensive solution. English is my foreign native language. On 11/23/2021 10:39 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the garage? The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown initiation device) to be on the exterior of the building. Would it work to put the RSID on the garage exterior? You could route your PV circuits to a switch or switches on the exterior of the garage on the way down to the sub it ties into. You could also use a shunt trip breaker(s) for the PV circuit(s). If for some reason you need to have the RSID on the main house, it gets trickier. Might need to trench? August Luminalt On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:24 AM Christopher Warfel > wrote: I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode back up service panel that is in the main building. If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter array so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use the battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage circuits, which would disable its heating system, etc. We just want to disconnect the microinverter circuit in the garage subpanel. Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would imagine a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a microinverter array? Thanks for any help. Chris -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:image001.jpg at 01D7E113.00276910] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:image001.jpg at 01D7E113.00276910] This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Nov 24 14:39:45 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:39:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage In-Reply-To: References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> <1c39c56a-f0f8-8c06-d94a-b7e66c2cca75@entech-engineering.com> <5b4ebdd5-3b41-9501-b2a0-bdc7ea3c82d9@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <2c4c1a52-6e75-bb0d-752b-a40696d7d392@entech-engineering.com> Thanks to everyone, the setting I had said AC coupling No. I did not realize that a firmware upgrade could enable that.  I think it is best to try frequency shift for this particular case.  Thanks again to everyone.  Chris On 11/24/2021 12:38 PM, Tuss, Lones wrote: > > Hello Chris > > Sorry for the slow response I foolishly took a couple of days of > vacation. > > I see this system is on Optics. The GS4048A inverter can do AC > Coupling with frequency shift. It will need to be upgraded from the > current rev of 001.006.063    to  001.007.070 below is a link to that > firmware. > > https://outbackpower.com/resources-mobile/technical-support/firmware-updates/item/radian-series-firmware-updates > > Once the new firmware is installed  will need to change the default >  Installer password of 1732 to a different 4 digit number after doing > so In the inverter you can go to the menu and enable AC Coupling. > > Below are instructions for changing the default Installer Password. > > https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/system_management/mate3s/mate3s_programmingguide_web.pdf > > please see S-16 in the manual above. > > Below is a link to the AC Coupling App Note > > https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/ac_coupling_radian.pdf > > I too speak English as my native foreign language below is a link to > > Fowlers Modern English Usage > > It has helped me to spoke more lucidly and communicate more better. > > https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fowlers+modern+english+usage&crid=3AUWAC3TGDBWQ&sprefix=fowlers+%2Caps%2C277&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_2_8 > > > Thanks for using OutBack > > Chris you have my #  if you have questions. > > Have a good Thanksgiving  and Stay Safe. > > Take Care All > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of > *Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 23, 2021 9:40 AM > *To:* August Goers ; RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a > Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage > > > > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and > know the content is safe. > > It was tough for me to figure out how to write my email and not make > it confusing. > > What I am worried about is the microinverter system operating when the > utility goes down and the microinverters continuing to operate and > charge the batteries as a load.  I need to disconnect the > microinverter circuit only when the batteries are fully charged in > grid isolated mode.  All the ways I can think of that would normally > work to deenergize the microinverters automatically based upon battery > voltage won't work.  I can submit a drawing if that would help. I am > trying not to run another conductor circuit from the house to the > garage.  I realize that would solve the problem, but it is an > expensive solution.  English is my foreign native language. > > On 11/23/2021 10:39 AM, August Goers wrote: > > Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a > detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the > garage? The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown > initiation device) to be on the exterior of the building. Would it > work to put the RSID on the garage exterior? You could route your > PV circuits to a switch or switches on the exterior of the garage > on the way down to the sub it ties into. You could also use a > shunt trip breaker(s) for the PV circuit(s). If for some reason > you need to have the RSID on the main house, it gets trickier. > Might need to trench? > > August > > Luminalt > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:24 AM Christopher Warfel > wrote: > > I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed > microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an > Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has > the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. > > Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode > back up service panel that is in the main building. > > If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter > array so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use > the battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage > circuits, which would disable its heating system, etc. We just > want to disconnect the microinverter circuit in the garage > subpanel. > > Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would > imagine a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a > microinverter array? > > Thanks for any help. Chris > > -- > > Christopher Warfel >                  ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                     401-466-8978 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't > work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > >                     Christopher Warfel >                  ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >             401-466-8978 > > > > > This email and any attachments may contain confidential information > that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this > email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your > system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those > of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or > its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct > transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally > binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully > signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any > attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss > or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended > recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in > the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the > environment before printing. --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Wed Nov 24 16:25:31 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:25:31 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage In-Reply-To: References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> <1c39c56a-f0f8-8c06-d94a-b7e66c2cca75@entech-engineering.com> <5b4ebdd5-3b41-9501-b2a0-bdc7ea3c82d9@entech-engineering.com> <2c4c1a52-6e75-bb0d-752b-a40696d7d392@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: Sorry my mistake [cid:image001.png at 01D7E136.BF7505C0] From: Christopher Warfel Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2021 11:58 AM To: Tuss, Lones Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Lonus is the update 001.006.007? Just making sure. On 11/24/2021 2:39 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: Thanks to everyone, the setting I had said AC coupling No. I did not realize that a firmware upgrade could enable that. I think it is best to try frequency shift for this particular case. Thanks again to everyone. Chris On 11/24/2021 12:38 PM, Tuss, Lones wrote: Hello Chris Sorry for the slow response I foolishly took a couple of days of vacation. I see this system is on Optics. The GS4048A inverter can do AC Coupling with frequency shift. It will need to be upgraded from the current rev of 001.006.063 to 001.007.070 below is a link to that firmware. https://outbackpower.com/resources-mobile/technical-support/firmware-updates/item/radian-series-firmware-updates Once the new firmware is installed will need to change the default Installer password of 1732 to a different 4 digit number after doing so In the inverter you can go to the menu and enable AC Coupling. Below are instructions for changing the default Installer Password. https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/system_management/mate3s/mate3s_programmingguide_web.pdf please see S-16 in the manual above. Below is a link to the AC Coupling App Note https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/ac_coupling_radian.pdf I too speak English as my native foreign language below is a link to Fowlers Modern English Usage It has helped me to spoke more lucidly and communicate more better. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fowlers+modern+english+usage&crid=3AUWAC3TGDBWQ&sprefix=fowlers+%2Caps%2C277&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_2_8 Thanks for using OutBack Chris you have my # if you have questions. Have a good Thanksgiving and Stay Safe. Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Christopher Warfel Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2021 9:40 AM To: August Goers ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. It was tough for me to figure out how to write my email and not make it confusing. What I am worried about is the microinverter system operating when the utility goes down and the microinverters continuing to operate and charge the batteries as a load. I need to disconnect the microinverter circuit only when the batteries are fully charged in grid isolated mode. All the ways I can think of that would normally work to deenergize the microinverters automatically based upon battery voltage won't work. I can submit a drawing if that would help. I am trying not to run another conductor circuit from the house to the garage. I realize that would solve the problem, but it is an expensive solution. English is my foreign native language. On 11/23/2021 10:39 AM, August Goers wrote: Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the garage? The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown initiation device) to be on the exterior of the building. Would it work to put the RSID on the garage exterior? You could route your PV circuits to a switch or switches on the exterior of the garage on the way down to the sub it ties into. You could also use a shunt trip breaker(s) for the PV circuit(s). If for some reason you need to have the RSID on the main house, it gets trickier. Might need to trench? August Luminalt On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:24 AM Christopher Warfel > wrote: I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode back up service panel that is in the main building. If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter array so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use the battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage circuits, which would disable its heating system, etc. We just want to disconnect the microinverter circuit in the garage subpanel. Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would imagine a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a microinverter array? Thanks for any help. Chris -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:image002.jpg at 01D7E136.BF7505C0] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:image002.jpg at 01D7E136.BF7505C0] This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:image002.jpg at 01D7E136.BF7505C0] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Christopher Warfel ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 401-466-8978 [cid:image002.jpg at 01D7E136.BF7505C0] This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 150538 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Nov 26 22:13:09 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 19:13:09 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E solar rates Message-ID: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> I’m wondering if anyone has or can tell me where to find the new PG&E solar rates for 2022 and or what they are now. It looks like all PG&E residential customers are now on TOU or as of 2022 anyway. Thanks Jay Peltz power From frenergy at psln.com Sun Nov 28 18:30:49 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (Bill Battagin) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 15:30:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E solar rates In-Reply-To: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a3fc4ab-9617-4d33-7e53-2dc8827037e0@psln.com> Jay,             The rates are pretty much the same they have been for a while...horrible.  There is still the E-1 for non-solar customers rates from $.26 to $.41/Kwhr.  Of course if you are a solar customer there is the E-TOU-C and E-TOU-D.  Don't ask me to do the spreadsheet for which is best because, you guessed it, it depends. Their website that might help: https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-options/understanding-rate-plans/understanding-rate-plans.page?WT.mc_id=Vanity_rates There is a pdf that esplains their rates. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 5575 Genesee Rd. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 On 11/26/2021 7:13 PM, Jay wrote: > I’m wondering if anyone has or can tell me where to find the new PG&E solar rates for 2022 and or what they are now. > > It looks like all PG&E residential customers are now on TOU or as of 2022 anyway. > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > > > > > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Sun Nov 28 21:16:25 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 18:16:25 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E solar rates In-Reply-To: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> Jay: https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html Hope this helps. William MIller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 7:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E solar rates I’m wondering if anyone has or can tell me where to find the new PG&E solar rates for 2022 and or what they are now. It looks like all PG&E residential customers are now on TOU or as of 2022 anyway. Thanks Jay Peltz power _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From frenergy at psln.com Tue Nov 30 21:16:39 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 18:16:39 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 In-Reply-To: <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> Yes, the old one, not the FM.  This oldie had an interesting way to set the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) and you would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to 1,2,3 or 4 hours).             I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the "max" time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it stay in absorb?             I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this old fart works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their old relics. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 solar powered since 1982 On 11/28/2021 6:16 PM, William Miller wrote: > Jay: > > https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html > > Hope this helps. > > William MIller > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 805-438-5600 > www.millersolar.com > CA Lic. 773985 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On > Behalf Of Jay > Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 7:13 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E solar rates > > I’m wondering if anyone has or can tell me where to find the new PG&E solar > rates for 2022 and or what they are now. > > It looks like all PG&E residential customers are now on TOU or as of 2022 > anyway. > > Thanks > > Jay > Peltz power > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Dec 1 01:47:39 2021 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:47:39 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 In-Reply-To: <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill.... As I remember, the min is of course... Minimum time in Absorb. Max is maximum time in absorb but depended on how long it took to get from Bulk MPPT to that Absorb voltage. So if it took 3 hours to get to Absorb that morning and you had t set for Max 2 hours,  it would Absorb for 2 hours. If it only took 1 and 1/2 hours to reach Absorb voltage, the MX60 would Absorb for 1 and 1/2 hours. It worked "OK"  but these days I would probably just set it for min of some 2 or 3 hours and then a max could be the same time or longer for FLA batteries. boB On 11/30/2021 7:16 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Yes, the old one, not the FM.  This oldie had an interesting way to > set the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) and > you would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to 1,2,3 or > 4 hours). > >             I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the > "max" time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it stay > in absorb? > >             I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this old > fart works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their old relics. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > solar powered since 1982 > > > On 11/28/2021 6:16 PM, William Miller wrote: >> Jay: >> >> https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/28_UtilityRates/UtilityRates.html >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> William MIller >> >> Miller Solar >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> 805-438-5600 >> www.millersolar.com >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] On >> Behalf Of Jay >> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 7:13 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] PG&E solar rates >> >> I’m wondering if anyone has or can tell me where to find the new PG&E solar >> rates for 2022 and or what they are now. >> >> It looks like all PG&E residential customers are now on TOU or as of 2022 >> anyway. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> Peltz power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > www.frenergy.net > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Wed Dec 1 10:27:06 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 10:27:06 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage - Update In-Reply-To: <2c4c1a52-6e75-bb0d-752b-a40696d7d392@entech-engineering.com> References: <7033DA0B-D03E-481D-89FA-DE4B86A1399E@gmail.com> <1c39c56a-f0f8-8c06-d94a-b7e66c2cca75@entech-engineering.com> <5b4ebdd5-3b41-9501-b2a0-bdc7ea3c82d9@entech-engineering.com> <2c4c1a52-6e75-bb0d-752b-a40696d7d392@entech-engineering.com> Message-ID: <02facb0c-e977-67cb-6f9d-03e6caf808cb@entech-engineering.com> Yesterday, I was able to upload firmware to the Mate 3s, and the GS4048 and program it for AC coupling.  I did not realize a firmware update would shut down the inverter (makes sense that it does), so that was a bit of a surprise, but all in all it went very well.  The Mate3s firmware was out of date by almost a year, and that did not allow the inverter firmware and its AC coupling capability to be set.  Once I update the Mate3s, I was able to specify AC coupling. Thanks for all the suggestions and I know I will be able to use them in other situations.  Chris On 11/24/2021 2:39 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: > > Thanks to everyone, the setting I had said AC coupling No. I did not > realize that a firmware upgrade could enable that.  I think it is best > to try frequency shift for this particular case.  Thanks again to > everyone.  Chris > > On 11/24/2021 12:38 PM, Tuss, Lones wrote: >> >> Hello Chris >> >> Sorry for the slow response I foolishly took a couple of days of >> vacation. >> >> I see this system is on Optics. The GS4048A inverter can do AC >> Coupling with frequency shift. It will need to be upgraded from the >> current rev of 001.006.063    to      001.007.070 below is a link to >> that firmware. >> >> https://outbackpower.com/resources-mobile/technical-support/firmware-updates/item/radian-series-firmware-updates >> >> Once the new firmware is installed  will need to change the default >>  Installer password of 1732 to a different 4 digit number after doing >> so In the inverter you can go to the menu and enable AC Coupling. >> >> Below are instructions for changing the default Installer Password. >> >> https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/system_management/mate3s/mate3s_programmingguide_web.pdf >> >> please see S-16 in the manual above. >> >> Below is a link to the AC Coupling App Note >> >> https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/ac_coupling_radian.pdf >> >> I too speak English as my native foreign language below is a link to >> >> Fowlers Modern English Usage >> >> It has helped me to spoke more lucidly and communicate more better. >> >> https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fowlers+modern+english+usage&crid=3AUWAC3TGDBWQ&sprefix=fowlers+%2Caps%2C277&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_2_8 >> >> >> Thanks for using OutBack >> >> Chris you have my #  if you have questions. >> >> Have a good Thanksgiving  and Stay Safe. >> >> Take Care All >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches >> *On Behalf Of >> *Christopher Warfel >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 23, 2021 9:40 AM >> *To:* August Goers ; RE-wrenches >> >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for >> a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage >> >> >> >> >> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not >> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and >> know the content is safe. >> >> It was tough for me to figure out how to write my email and not make >> it confusing. >> >> What I am worried about is the microinverter system operating when >> the utility goes down and the microinverters continuing to operate >> and charge the batteries as a load.  I need to disconnect the >> microinverter circuit only when the batteries are fully charged in >> grid isolated mode.  All the ways I can think of that would normally >> work to deenergize the microinverters automatically based upon >> battery voltage won't work.  I can submit a drawing if that would >> help. I am trying not to run another conductor circuit from the house >> to the garage.  I realize that would solve the problem, but it is an >> expensive solution.  English is my foreign native language. >> >> On 11/23/2021 10:39 AM, August Goers wrote: >> >> Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a >> detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the >> garage? The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown >> initiation device) to be on the exterior of the building. Would >> it work to put the RSID on the garage exterior? You could route >> your PV circuits to a switch or switches on the exterior of the >> garage on the way down to the sub it ties into. You could also >> use a shunt trip breaker(s) for the PV circuit(s). If for some >> reason you need to have the RSID on the main house, it gets >> trickier. Might need to trench? >> >> August >> >> Luminalt >> >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 7:24 AM Christopher Warfel >> wrote: >> >> I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed >> microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an >> Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has >> the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. >> >> Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the multimode >> back up service panel that is in the main building. >> >> If grid goes down, we need to disconnect the microinverter >> array so it does not overcharge the battery system. If we use >> the battery voltage relay, we will take out all the garage >> circuits, which would disable its heating system, etc. We >> just want to disconnect the microinverter circuit in the >> garage subpanel. >> >> Does anyone know of a product that could do this. I would >> imagine a transmitter, or perhaps something else besides a >> microinverter array? >> >> Thanks for any help. Chris >> >> -- >> >> Christopher Warfel >>                  ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>                     401-466-8978 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't >> work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> -- >> >>                                 Christopher Warfel >>                  ENTECH Engineering, Inc. >> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >>             401-466-8978 >> >> >> >> >> This email and any attachments may contain confidential information >> that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this >> email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your >> system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely >> those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the >> company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an >> agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not >> create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the >> absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should >> check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts >> no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If >> you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar >> email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please >> consider the environment before printing. > -- >                 Christopher Warfel >                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                                 401-466-8978 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Dec 1 11:10:30 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:10:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 In-Reply-To: References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> Message-ID: boB,             Interesting...Sounds like this is not a candidate for L-ion batteries. Bill On 11/30/2021 10:47 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > Hi Bill.... > > As I remember, the min is of course... Minimum time in Absorb. > > Max is maximum time in absorb but depended on how long it took to get > from Bulk MPPT to that Absorb voltage. > > So if it took 3 hours to get to Absorb that morning and you had t set > for Max 2 hours,  it would Absorb for 2 hours. > > If it only took 1 and 1/2 hours to reach Absorb voltage, the MX60 > would Absorb for 1 and 1/2 hours. > > It worked "OK"  but these days I would probably just set it for min of > some 2 or 3 hours and then a max could be the same > time or longer for FLA batteries. > > boB > > > > On 11/30/2021 7:16 PM, frenergy wrote: >> >> Yes, the old one, not the FM.  This oldie had an interesting way to >> set the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) >> and you would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to >> 1,2,3 or 4 hours). >> >>             I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the >> "max" time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it stay >> in absorb? >> >>             I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this old >> fart works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their old relics. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> solar powered since 1982 >> >> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Dec 1 11:38:09 2021 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:38:09 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 In-Reply-To: References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> Message-ID: <1b343142-3782-42cc-4897-6e82b3009dbd@midnitesolar.com> Depends on the requirement for the BMS. Usually, but not 100% always, the requirement is to get the voltage up to "absorb" and then stop charging. Just set the min and max  times very low, like 1 minute and that should satisfy that one. I do not remember if the MX60 had a Re-Bulk  setting but I think it did ? The MX did not have a logic input for turning it on and off of course.  OB had a communications device that converted their communications protocol to Modbus or Ethernet I think it was which may (or may not) be able to make it work. Could always buy something newer and keep the MX60 as a spare. boB On 12/1/2021 9:10 AM, frenergy wrote: > > boB, > >             Interesting...Sounds like this is not a candidate for > L-ion batteries. > > Bill > > On 11/30/2021 10:47 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >> >> Hi Bill.... >> >> As I remember, the min is of course... Minimum time in Absorb. >> >> Max is maximum time in absorb but depended on how long it took to get >> from Bulk MPPT to that Absorb voltage. >> >> So if it took 3 hours to get to Absorb that morning and you had t set >> for Max 2 hours,  it would Absorb for 2 hours. >> >> If it only took 1 and 1/2 hours to reach Absorb voltage, the MX60 >> would Absorb for 1 and 1/2 hours. >> >> It worked "OK"  but these days I would probably just set it for min >> of some 2 or 3 hours and then a max could be the same >> time or longer for FLA batteries. >> >> boB >> >> >> >> On 11/30/2021 7:16 PM, frenergy wrote: >>> >>> Yes, the old one, not the FM.  This oldie had an interesting way to >>> set the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) >>> and you would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to >>> 1,2,3 or 4 hours). >>> >>>             I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the >>> "max" time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it >>> stay in absorb? >>> >>>             I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this >>> old fart works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their >>> old relics. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> solar powered since 1982 >>> >>> > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Dec 1 14:03:08 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larrycrutcher) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:03:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 - Li-ion charging In-Reply-To: <1b343142-3782-42cc-4897-6e82b3009dbd@midnitesolar.com> References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> <1b343142-3782-42cc-4897-6e82b3009dbd@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <3F521F14-AFDE-4FF2-A09E-90AF06B11924@starlightsolar.com> If you stop charging a Li-ion battery when the CV (absorb voltage) is reached, you may reduce or stop the needed cell balancing time. We have had customers develop unbalanced series cells from continuous undercharging. Because of internal cell resistance, one cell will always reach saturation before others in the group. This can happen at less than 1mv difference. The more unbalanced a group of series cells are, the sooner one cells voltage will spike causing over voltage events at a lower terminal voltage. Our Li batteries (Elite Power Solutions-GBS and LiFeBlue) can be held at 3.65Vpc continuously, no problems. We have customers using both MX and FM controllers for 8 years now. Our recommended setting for the Absorb timer is 0.3 hours. This allows for cell balancing and for the capacity meter to recalibrate. Some chargers will stay at CV for several hours. No problems doing this either as long as cell voltage is lower than 3.8V (LFP chem.). Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Dec 1, 2021, at 9:38 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: Depends on the requirement for the BMS. Usually, but not 100% always, the requirement is to get the voltage up to "absorb" and then stop charging. Just set the min and max times very low, like 1 minute and that should satisfy that one. I do not remember if the MX60 had a Re-Bulk setting but I think it did ? The MX did not have a logic input for turning it on and off of course. OB had a communications device that converted their communications protocol to Modbus or Ethernet I think it was which may (or may not) be able to make it work. Could always buy something newer and keep the MX60 as a spare. boB On 12/1/2021 9:10 AM, frenergy wrote: > boB, > > Interesting...Sounds like this is not a candidate for L-ion batteries. > > Bill > > On 11/30/2021 10:47 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >> >> Hi Bill.... >> >> As I remember, the min is of course... Minimum time in Absorb. >> >> Max is maximum time in absorb but depended on how long it took to get from Bulk MPPT to that Absorb voltage. >> >> So if it took 3 hours to get to Absorb that morning and you had t set for Max 2 hours, it would Absorb for 2 hours. >> >> If it only took 1 and 1/2 hours to reach Absorb voltage, the MX60 would Absorb for 1 and 1/2 hours. >> >> It worked "OK" but these days I would probably just set it for min of some 2 or 3 hours and then a max could be the same >> time or longer for FLA batteries. >> >> boB >> >> >> >> On 11/30/2021 7:16 PM, frenergy wrote: >>> Yes, the old one, not the FM. This oldie had an interesting way to set the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) and you would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to 1,2,3 or 4 hours). >>> >>> I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the "max" time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it stay in absorb? >>> >>> I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this old fart works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their old relics. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> solar powered since 1982 >>> >>> > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 1 15:18:11 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:18:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers Message-ID: <924F43C4-9367-43AD-B968-3F94F2B658D5@gmail.com> I got a call from a colleague that is designing a very large roughly 90-100 kWh lithium battery at 48v. He’s looking for large AC chargers to charge this bank. The reason is total elimination of switch over delay from inverter to generator and back. One technique is to use inverters for this, but pretty pricey. Any recommendations as to equipment, brands etc? It would be a 208 3 phase AC side powered by a generator. Thx Jay Peltz power. From bob at midnitesolar.com Wed Dec 1 15:24:38 2021 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 13:24:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 - Li-ion charging In-Reply-To: <3F521F14-AFDE-4FF2-A09E-90AF06B11924@starlightsolar.com> References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> <1b343142-3782-42cc-4897-6e82b3009dbd@midnitesolar.com> <3F521F14-AFDE-4FF2-A09E-90AF06B11924@starlightsolar.com> Message-ID: <0d9d776a-0602-02eb-d59e-78d1ddb28161@midnitesolar.com> Thanks Larry. The information to stop when absorb voltage was reached is like, 10 or more years old and so I don't know if that voltage reach and stop charging algorithm is still used by any BMS's. This is probably why we had to add a logic input to tell the controller to stop charging from the BMS. After the 0.3 hours at Absorb for balancing (which makes perfect sense for a BMS),  does the MX/FM then go to float at 3.65V per cell after that ? Does your systems just restart a new bulk/absorb cycle the next morning or do you also do a Re-Bulk if or when battery voltage falls below a certain point ? Also, listening (reading) chat here on what might be needed that may not have been addressed by Li battery, BMS and/or charge controller manufacturers. Thanks, boB On 12/1/2021 12:03 PM, larrycrutcher wrote: > If you stop charging a Li-ion battery when the CV (absorb voltage) is > reached, you may reduce or stop the needed cell balancing time. We > have had customers develop unbalanced series cells from continuous > undercharging. Because of internal cell resistance, one cell will > always reach saturation before others in the group. This can happen at > less than 1mv difference. The more unbalanced a group of series cells > are, the sooner one cells voltage will spike causing over voltage > events at a lower terminal voltage. > > Our Li batteries (Elite Power Solutions-GBS and LiFeBlue) can be held > at 3.65Vpc continuously, no problems. We have customers using both MX > and FM controllers for 8 years now. Our recommended setting for the > Absorb timer is 0.3 hours. This allows for cell balancing and for the > capacity meter to recalibrate. Some chargers will stay at CV for > several hours. No problems doing this either as long as cell voltage > is lower than 3.8V (LFP chem.). > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Dec 1, 2021, at 9:38 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > > Depends on the requirement for the BMS. > > Usually, but not 100% always, the requirement is to get the voltage up > to "absorb" and then stop charging. > > Just set the min and max  times very low, like 1 minute and that > should satisfy that one. > > I do not remember if the MX60 had a Re-Bulk  setting but I think it did ? > > The MX did not have a logic input for turning it on and off of > course.  OB had a communications > device that converted their communications protocol to Modbus or > Ethernet I think it was which > may (or may not) be able to make it work. > > Could always buy something newer and keep the MX60 as a spare. > > boB > > > > On 12/1/2021 9:10 AM, frenergy wrote: >> >> boB, >> >>             Interesting...Sounds like this is not a candidate for >> L-ion batteries. >> >> Bill >> >> On 11/30/2021 10:47 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bill.... >>> >>> As I remember, the min is of course... Minimum time in Absorb. >>> >>> Max is maximum time in absorb but depended on how long it took to >>> get from Bulk MPPT to that Absorb voltage. >>> >>> So if it took 3 hours to get to Absorb that morning and you had t >>> set for Max 2 hours,  it would Absorb for 2 hours. >>> >>> If it only took 1 and 1/2 hours to reach Absorb voltage, the MX60 >>> would Absorb for 1 and 1/2 hours. >>> >>> It worked "OK"  but these days I would probably just set it for min >>> of some 2 or 3 hours and then a max could be the same >>> time or longer for FLA batteries. >>> >>> boB >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/30/2021 7:16 PM, frenergy wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, the old one, not the FM.  This oldie had an interesting way to >>>> set the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) >>>> and you would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to >>>> 1,2,3 or 4 hours). >>>> >>>>             I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the >>>> "max" time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it >>>> stay in absorb? >>>> >>>>             I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this >>>> old fart works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their >>>> old relics. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>>> 4291 Nelson St. >>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> 530.284.7849 >>>> CA Lic 874049 >>>> solar powered since 1982 >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at surrette.com Wed Dec 1 16:09:35 2021 From: steve at surrette.com (Steve Higgins) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 13:09:35 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 - Li-ion charging In-Reply-To: <0d9d776a-0602-02eb-d59e-78d1ddb28161@midnitesolar.com> References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> <1b343142-3782-42cc-4897-6e82b3009dbd@midnitesolar.com> <3F521F14-AFDE-4FF2-A09E-90AF06B11924@starlightsolar.com> <0d9d776a-0602-02eb-d59e-78d1ddb28161@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: I have found this to be true as well, especially when multiple LFP battery blocks are in parallel . I like to see the charge rate around the C2 to C8 Rate... the lower the charge rate the longer the absorb. On the LFP's we advise around 20-60 mins absorb time again depending on the amount of current availability, and quantity of parallel connections. With the MX60 you can adjust the float voltage to the 3.65vpc, and set the timer for the rest of the solar day to ensure the batteries are getting balanced... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <#m_4615892711811776411_SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> ------------------------------ *Register using 10% discount code **ROLLS22* ------------------------------ CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. ------------------------------ On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 12:24 PM bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > Thanks Larry. > > The information to stop when absorb voltage was reached is like, 10 or > more years old and so I > don't know if that voltage reach and stop charging algorithm is still used > by any BMS's. > > This is probably why we had to add a logic input to tell the controller to > stop charging from the BMS. > > After the 0.3 hours at Absorb for balancing (which makes perfect sense for > a BMS), does the MX/FM then > go to float at 3.65V per cell after that ? > > Does your systems just restart a new bulk/absorb cycle the next morning or > do you also do a Re-Bulk if > or when battery voltage falls below a certain point ? > > Also, listening (reading) chat here on what might be needed that may not > have been addressed by > Li battery, BMS and/or charge controller manufacturers. > > > Thanks, > boB > > > > > > On 12/1/2021 12:03 PM, larrycrutcher wrote: > > If you stop charging a Li-ion battery when the CV (absorb voltage) is > reached, you may reduce or stop the needed cell balancing time. We have had > customers develop unbalanced series cells from continuous undercharging. > Because of internal cell resistance, one cell will always reach saturation > before others in the group. This can happen at less than 1mv difference. > The more unbalanced a group of series cells are, the sooner one cells > voltage will spike causing over voltage events at a lower terminal voltage. > > > Our Li batteries (Elite Power Solutions-GBS and LiFeBlue) can be held at > 3.65Vpc continuously, no problems. We have customers using both MX and FM > controllers for 8 years now. Our recommended setting for the Absorb timer > is 0.3 hours. This allows for cell balancing and for the capacity meter to > recalibrate. Some chargers will stay at CV for several hours. No problems > doing this either as long as cell voltage is lower than 3.8V (LFP chem.). > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Dec 1, 2021, at 9:38 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > > Depends on the requirement for the BMS. > > Usually, but not 100% always, the requirement is to get the voltage up to > "absorb" and then stop charging. > > Just set the min and max times very low, like 1 minute and that should > satisfy that one. > > I do not remember if the MX60 had a Re-Bulk setting but I think it did ? > > The MX did not have a logic input for turning it on and off of course. OB > had a communications > device that converted their communications protocol to Modbus or Ethernet > I think it was which > may (or may not) be able to make it work. > > Could always buy something newer and keep the MX60 as a spare. > > boB > > > > On 12/1/2021 9:10 AM, frenergy wrote: > > boB, > > Interesting...Sounds like this is not a candidate for L-ion > batteries. > > Bill > On 11/30/2021 10:47 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > Hi Bill.... > > As I remember, the min is of course... Minimum time in Absorb. > > Max is maximum time in absorb but depended on how long it took to get from > Bulk MPPT to that Absorb voltage. > > So if it took 3 hours to get to Absorb that morning and you had t set for > Max 2 hours, it would Absorb for 2 hours. > > If it only took 1 and 1/2 hours to reach Absorb voltage, the MX60 would > Absorb for 1 and 1/2 hours. > > It worked "OK" but these days I would probably just set it for min of > some 2 or 3 hours and then a max could be the same > time or longer for FLA batteries. > > boB > > > > On 11/30/2021 7:16 PM, frenergy wrote: > > Yes, the old one, not the FM. This oldie had an interesting way to set > the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) and you > would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to 1,2,3 or 4 hours). > > I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the "max" > time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it stay in absorb? > > I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this old fart > works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their old relics. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > solar powered since 1982 > > > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Dec 1 17:51:08 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larrycrutcher) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 15:51:08 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 - Li-ion charging In-Reply-To: <0d9d776a-0602-02eb-d59e-78d1ddb28161@midnitesolar.com> References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> <1b343142-3782-42cc-4897-6e82b3009dbd@midnitesolar.com> <3F521F14-AFDE-4FF2-A09E-90AF06B11924@starlightsolar.com> <0d9d776a-0602-02eb-d59e-78d1ddb28161@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: boB, Yes, the Absorb timer in the FM and MX determine maximum CV time. From FM manual: While the batteries are held at this voltage, the ChgT counter in the Misc menu counts up from zero toward the user-defined Absorb Time Limit. (See pages 44 and 49.) The charger will exit this stage and enter the Float stage if the ChgT timer reaches the time limit, or if the Absorb End Amps setting is reached. Float V is what ever you programed in Charger Setup. We normally Float at 3.4 to 3.45Vpc, 13.6V to 13.8V for 12V bank. I find that Rebulk is not very important. Float mode can easily replace energy to the battery at the same rate as Bulk/Absorb would without the higher voltage and additional absorb time. It does not take much voltage delta to produce high current. Each sunrise restarts the controller. This is good to produce another Absorb cycle for cell balancing. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Dec 1, 2021, at 1:24 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: Thanks Larry. The information to stop when absorb voltage was reached is like, 10 or more years old and so I don't know if that voltage reach and stop charging algorithm is still used by any BMS's. This is probably why we had to add a logic input to tell the controller to stop charging from the BMS. After the 0.3 hours at Absorb for balancing (which makes perfect sense for a BMS), does the MX/FM then go to float at 3.65V per cell after that ? Does your systems just restart a new bulk/absorb cycle the next morning or do you also do a Re-Bulk if or when battery voltage falls below a certain point ? Also, listening (reading) chat here on what might be needed that may not have been addressed by Li battery, BMS and/or charge controller manufacturers. Thanks, boB On 12/1/2021 12:03 PM, larrycrutcher wrote: > If you stop charging a Li-ion battery when the CV (absorb voltage) is reached, you may reduce or stop the needed cell balancing time. We have had customers develop unbalanced series cells from continuous undercharging. Because of internal cell resistance, one cell will always reach saturation before others in the group. This can happen at less than 1mv difference. The more unbalanced a group of series cells are, the sooner one cells voltage will spike causing over voltage events at a lower terminal voltage. > > Our Li batteries (Elite Power Solutions-GBS and LiFeBlue) can be held at 3.65Vpc continuously, no problems. We have customers using both MX and FM controllers for 8 years now. Our recommended setting for the Absorb timer is 0.3 hours. This allows for cell balancing and for the capacity meter to recalibrate. Some chargers will stay at CV for several hours. No problems doing this either as long as cell voltage is lower than 3.8V (LFP chem.). > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Dec 1, 2021, at 9:38 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > > Depends on the requirement for the BMS. > > Usually, but not 100% always, the requirement is to get the voltage up to "absorb" and then stop charging. > > Just set the min and max times very low, like 1 minute and that should satisfy that one. > > I do not remember if the MX60 had a Re-Bulk setting but I think it did ? > > The MX did not have a logic input for turning it on and off of course. OB had a communications > device that converted their communications protocol to Modbus or Ethernet I think it was which > may (or may not) be able to make it work. > > Could always buy something newer and keep the MX60 as a spare. > > boB > > > > On 12/1/2021 9:10 AM, frenergy wrote: >> boB, >> >> Interesting...Sounds like this is not a candidate for L-ion batteries. >> >> Bill >> >> On 11/30/2021 10:47 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bill.... >>> >>> As I remember, the min is of course... Minimum time in Absorb. >>> >>> Max is maximum time in absorb but depended on how long it took to get from Bulk MPPT to that Absorb voltage. >>> >>> So if it took 3 hours to get to Absorb that morning and you had t set for Max 2 hours, it would Absorb for 2 hours. >>> >>> If it only took 1 and 1/2 hours to reach Absorb voltage, the MX60 would Absorb for 1 and 1/2 hours. >>> >>> It worked "OK" but these days I would probably just set it for min of some 2 or 3 hours and then a max could be the same >>> time or longer for FLA batteries. >>> >>> boB >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/30/2021 7:16 PM, frenergy wrote: >>>> Yes, the old one, not the FM. This oldie had an interesting way to set the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) and you would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to 1,2,3 or 4 hours). >>>> >>>> I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the "max" time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it stay in absorb? >>>> >>>> I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this old fart works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their old relics. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>>> 4291 Nelson St. >>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> 530.284.7849 >>>> CA Lic 874049 >>>> solar powered since 1982 >>>> >>>> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larry at starlightsolar.com Wed Dec 1 18:18:22 2021 From: larry at starlightsolar.com (larrycrutcher) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 16:18:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback MX-60 - Li-ion charging In-Reply-To: References: <20A36638-C052-495A-8258-908EA86956FC@gmail.com> <8f3daad42b0e47ad383e25f24985461e@mail.gmail.com> <93f93bc0-0762-2a3f-4689-9608dc864a62@psln.com> <1b343142-3782-42cc-4897-6e82b3009dbd@midnitesolar.com> <3F521F14-AFDE-4FF2-A09E-90AF06B11924@starlightsolar.com> <0d9d776a-0602-02eb-d59e-78d1ddb28161@midnitesolar.com> Message-ID: <1644AB83-851C-43CF-80F7-93F2F9A6A461@starlightsolar.com> Steve reminded me of something, probably because it is not very common. If you are recharging at 1C or greater rates, the Absorb cycle will need to be longer if you want to return all energy to the battery. Example: For a 300AH battery, 1C would be 300 Amps or over 16kW for a 48V bank. Since it’s not economical to build a PV system that can fully charge from 100% DoD in just 1 hour of full sun, it’s not too likely you will use 1C charge rates. If you are generator charging, this may be true, in fact I recommend charging at 1C (or max the brand will allow) to reduce generator run time. Larry Crutcher On Dec 1, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: I have found this to be true as well, especially when multiple LFP battery blocks are in parallel . I like to see the charge rate around the C2 to C8 Rate... the lower the charge rate the longer the absorb. On the LFP's we advise around 20-60 mins absorb time again depending on the amount of current availability, and quantity of parallel connections. With the MX60 you can adjust the float voltage to the 3.65vpc, and set the timer for the rest of the solar day to ensure the batteries are getting balanced... Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager t +1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e steve at surrette.com <> <> <> <> Register using 10% discount code ROLLS22 CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies. On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 12:24 PM bob at midnitesolar.com > wrote: Thanks Larry. The information to stop when absorb voltage was reached is like, 10 or more years old and so I don't know if that voltage reach and stop charging algorithm is still used by any BMS's. This is probably why we had to add a logic input to tell the controller to stop charging from the BMS. After the 0.3 hours at Absorb for balancing (which makes perfect sense for a BMS), does the MX/FM then go to float at 3.65V per cell after that ? Does your systems just restart a new bulk/absorb cycle the next morning or do you also do a Re-Bulk if or when battery voltage falls below a certain point ? Also, listening (reading) chat here on what might be needed that may not have been addressed by Li battery, BMS and/or charge controller manufacturers. Thanks, boB On 12/1/2021 12:03 PM, larrycrutcher wrote: > If you stop charging a Li-ion battery when the CV (absorb voltage) is reached, you may reduce or stop the needed cell balancing time. We have had customers develop unbalanced series cells from continuous undercharging. Because of internal cell resistance, one cell will always reach saturation before others in the group. This can happen at less than 1mv difference. The more unbalanced a group of series cells are, the sooner one cells voltage will spike causing over voltage events at a lower terminal voltage. > > Our Li batteries (Elite Power Solutions-GBS and LiFeBlue) can be held at 3.65Vpc continuously, no problems. We have customers using both MX and FM controllers for 8 years now. Our recommended setting for the Absorb timer is 0.3 hours. This allows for cell balancing and for the capacity meter to recalibrate. Some chargers will stay at CV for several hours. No problems doing this either as long as cell voltage is lower than 3.8V (LFP chem.). > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > > On Dec 1, 2021, at 9:38 AM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: > > > > Depends on the requirement for the BMS. > > Usually, but not 100% always, the requirement is to get the voltage up to "absorb" and then stop charging. > > Just set the min and max times very low, like 1 minute and that should satisfy that one. > > I do not remember if the MX60 had a Re-Bulk setting but I think it did ? > > The MX did not have a logic input for turning it on and off of course. OB had a communications > device that converted their communications protocol to Modbus or Ethernet I think it was which > may (or may not) be able to make it work. > > Could always buy something newer and keep the MX60 as a spare. > > boB > > > > On 12/1/2021 9:10 AM, frenergy wrote: >> boB, >> >> Interesting...Sounds like this is not a candidate for L-ion batteries. >> >> Bill >> >> On 11/30/2021 10:47 PM, bob at midnitesolar.com wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bill.... >>> >>> As I remember, the min is of course... Minimum time in Absorb. >>> >>> Max is maximum time in absorb but depended on how long it took to get from Bulk MPPT to that Absorb voltage. >>> >>> So if it took 3 hours to get to Absorb that morning and you had t set for Max 2 hours, it would Absorb for 2 hours. >>> >>> If it only took 1 and 1/2 hours to reach Absorb voltage, the MX60 would Absorb for 1 and 1/2 hours. >>> >>> It worked "OK" but these days I would probably just set it for min of some 2 or 3 hours and then a max could be the same >>> time or longer for FLA batteries. >>> >>> boB >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/30/2021 7:16 PM, frenergy wrote: >>>> Yes, the old one, not the FM. This oldie had an interesting way to set the absorption time. You would set the "min" time (in minutes) and you would set the "max" time (in hours, you have to set it to 1,2,3 or 4 hours). >>>> >>>> I need to know if I set the "min" to 10 minutes and the "max" time to one hour or two or three or four, how long will it stay in absorb? >>>> >>>> I called Outback and Megan there didn't know how this old fart works, apparently tech support isn't supporting us their old relics. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> Feather River Solar Electric >>>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>>> 4291 Nelson St. >>>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>>> 530.284.7849 >>>> CA Lic 874049 >>>> solar powered since 1982 >>>> >>>> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com <> > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 08:30:16 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 07:30:16 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: <924F43C4-9367-43AD-B968-3F94F2B658D5@gmail.com> References: <924F43C4-9367-43AD-B968-3F94F2B658D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay I am confused as usual, what are the loads? AC or DC? How are you charging the battery from the generator or how is the battery powering the loads? What is the desired current or the size of the generator? sorry if this I dumb question On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:23 PM Jay wrote: > I got a call from a colleague that is designing a very large roughly > 90-100 kWh lithium battery at 48v. > > He’s looking for large AC chargers to charge this bank. The reason is > total elimination of switch over delay from inverter to generator and back. > > One technique is to use inverters for this, but pretty pricey. > > Any recommendations as to equipment, brands etc? > > It would be a 208 3 phase AC side powered by a generator. > > Thx > Jay > > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 09:27:22 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 07:27:22 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: References: <924F43C4-9367-43AD-B968-3F94F2B658D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jay, Is the plan to feed DC current (from generator and grid) into the batteries and keep the inverters as power source for loads? On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:30 AM Darryl Thayer wrote: > Jay I am confused as usual, what are the loads? AC or DC? How are you > charging the battery from the generator or how is the battery powering the > loads? What is the desired current or the size of the generator? sorry > if this I dumb question > > On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:23 PM Jay wrote: > >> I got a call from a colleague that is designing a very large roughly >> 90-100 kWh lithium battery at 48v. >> >> He’s looking for large AC chargers to charge this bank. The reason is >> total elimination of switch over delay from inverter to generator and back. >> >> One technique is to use inverters for this, but pretty pricey. >> >> Any recommendations as to equipment, brands etc? >> >> It would be a 208 3 phase AC side powered by a generator. >> >> Thx >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdelectricsolar at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 09:56:07 2021 From: mdelectricsolar at gmail.com (MDElectricSolar) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 06:56:07 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> Maybe a DC output generator, the Wildcat Maverick charges a 48v battery bank directly and has it’s own controls, independent from the inverter. https://wildcatpowergen.com/pages/maverick Michael D Nelson MD Electric & Solar, Inc. 707-684-0064 mobile 707-884-1862 office www.mdelectricsolar.com www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > On Dec 2, 2021, at 6:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > Hi Jay, > > Is the plan to feed DC current (from generator and grid) into the batteries and keep the inverters as power source for loads? > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:30 AM Darryl Thayer wrote: >> Jay I am confused as usual, what are the loads? AC or DC? How are you charging the battery from the generator or how is the battery powering the loads? What is the desired current or the size of the generator? sorry if this I dumb question >> >>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:23 PM Jay wrote: >>> I got a call from a colleague that is designing a very large roughly 90-100 kWh lithium battery at 48v. >>> >>> He’s looking for large AC chargers to charge this bank. The reason is total elimination of switch over delay from inverter to generator and back. >>> >>> One technique is to use inverters for this, but pretty pricey. >>> >>> Any recommendations as to equipment, brands etc? >>> >>> It would be a 208 3 phase AC side powered by a generator. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 10:53:19 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 07:53:19 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> Hi all Sorry I guess I didn’t explain the clients wants well enough 1. 90-100kwh+ 48 vdc lithium battery 2. 208 3 phase AC generator powering 48v nominal battery chargers. 208-3phase as that is the house/EE design voltage. 3. AC generator because it’s back up if the inverters fail, so no DC generator. 4. Client doesn’t want any drop outs or have to reset clocks etc during generator/inverter- charging/switchover. 5. Inverter size is not decided yet, probably 40-80kw. 6. Generator size isn’t specified yet, but given the loads 60-125kw probably. Size would be based on battery charging or max ac load which ever is larger. That leads me external chargers. I’m looking for large programmable battery chargers for lithium batteries powered from a 208-3phase ac generator in the 60-125 kw size range. Thanks Jay > On Dec 2, 2021, at 6:56 AM, MDElectricSolar wrote: > > Maybe a DC output generator, the Wildcat Maverick charges a 48v battery bank directly and has it’s own controls, independent from the inverter. > > https://wildcatpowergen.com/pages/maverick > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > >>> On Dec 2, 2021, at 6:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> >>  >> Hi Jay, >> >> Is the plan to feed DC current (from generator and grid) into the batteries and keep the inverters as power source for loads? >> >>> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:30 AM Darryl Thayer wrote: >>> Jay I am confused as usual, what are the loads? AC or DC? How are you charging the battery from the generator or how is the battery powering the loads? What is the desired current or the size of the generator? sorry if this I dumb question >>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:23 PM Jay wrote: >>>> I got a call from a colleague that is designing a very large roughly 90-100 kWh lithium battery at 48v. >>>> >>>> He’s looking for large AC chargers to charge this bank. The reason is total elimination of switch over delay from inverter to generator and back. >>>> >>>> One technique is to use inverters for this, but pretty pricey. >>>> >>>> Any recommendations as to equipment, brands etc? >>>> >>>> It would be a 208 3 phase AC side powered by a generator. >>>> >>>> Thx >>>> Jay >>>> >>>> Peltz power. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjmorningstar at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 15:36:55 2021 From: mjmorningstar at gmail.com (Michael Morningstar) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 12:36:55 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7E2282EE-352B-42D1-968D-7D418CC26986@gmail.com> I’m currently building a similar sized system (a bit larger), so I know what the costs are for such scale. Seems like 6-9 SolArks or XWpros for dedicated closed loop charging only wouldn’t be unreasonable? If an equally sized battery charger exists it would be a monstrosity! > On Dec 2, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > Sorry I guess I didn’t explain the clients wants well enough > > 1. 90-100kwh+ 48 vdc lithium battery > 2. 208 3 phase AC generator powering 48v nominal battery chargers. > 208-3phase as that is the house/EE design voltage. > 3. AC generator because it’s back up if the inverters fail, so no DC generator. > 4. Client doesn’t want any drop outs or have to reset clocks etc during generator/inverter- charging/switchover. > 5. Inverter size is not decided yet, probably 40-80kw. > 6. Generator size isn’t specified yet, but given the loads 60-125kw probably. > Size would be based on battery charging or max ac load which ever is larger. > > That leads me external chargers. > > I’m looking for large programmable battery chargers for lithium batteries powered from a 208-3phase ac generator in the 60-125 kw size range. > > Thanks > > Jay > > > > > > >> On Dec 2, 2021, at 6:56 AM, MDElectricSolar wrote: >> >> Maybe a DC output generator, the Wildcat Maverick charges a 48v battery bank directly and has it’s own controls, independent from the inverter. >> >> https://wildcatpowergen.com/pages/maverick >> >> Michael D Nelson >> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >> 707-684-0064 mobile >> 707-884-1862 office >> www.mdelectricsolar.com >> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >> >> >>> On Dec 2, 2021, at 6:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: >>> >>>  >>> Hi Jay, >>> >>> Is the plan to feed DC current (from generator and grid) into the batteries and keep the inverters as power source for loads? >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:30 AM Darryl Thayer > wrote: >>> Jay I am confused as usual, what are the loads? AC or DC? How are you charging the battery from the generator or how is the battery powering the loads? What is the desired current or the size of the generator? sorry if this I dumb question >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:23 PM Jay > wrote: >>> I got a call from a colleague that is designing a very large roughly 90-100 kWh lithium battery at 48v. >>> >>> He’s looking for large AC chargers to charge this bank. The reason is total elimination of switch over delay from inverter to generator and back. >>> >>> One technique is to use inverters for this, but pretty pricey. >>> >>> Any recommendations as to equipment, brands etc? >>> >>> It would be a 208 3 phase AC side powered by a generator. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > Michael Morningstar Morningstar Electric PO Box 1494 Mount Shasta, California 96067 530-921-0560 CSLB 949635 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 18:01:19 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 16:01:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: <7E2282EE-352B-42D1-968D-7D418CC26986@gmail.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <7E2282EE-352B-42D1-968D-7D418CC26986@gmail.com> Message-ID: What about large stacks of telecom style rectifiers with the output tuned to the desired absorb voltage? Very scalable but I'm not sure how the costs would compare... On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 1:46 PM Michael Morningstar wrote: > I’m currently building a similar sized system (a bit larger), so I know > what the costs are for such scale. Seems like 6-9 SolArks or XWpros for > dedicated closed loop charging only wouldn’t be unreasonable? > > If an equally sized battery charger exists it would be a monstrosity! > > > > On Dec 2, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > Sorry I guess I didn’t explain the clients wants well enough > > 1. 90-100kwh+ 48 vdc lithium battery > 2. 208 3 phase AC generator powering 48v nominal battery chargers. > 208-3phase as that is the house/EE design voltage. > 3. AC generator because it’s back up if the inverters fail, so no DC > generator. > 4. Client doesn’t want any drop outs or have to reset clocks etc during > generator/inverter- charging/switchover. > 5. Inverter size is not decided yet, probably 40-80kw. > 6. Generator size isn’t specified yet, but given the loads 60-125kw > probably. > Size would be based on battery charging or max ac load which ever is > larger. > > That leads me external chargers. > > I’m looking for large programmable battery chargers for lithium batteries > powered from a 208-3phase ac generator in the 60-125 kw size range. > > Thanks > > Jay > > > > > > > On Dec 2, 2021, at 6:56 AM, MDElectricSolar > wrote: > > Maybe a DC output generator, the Wildcat Maverick charges a 48v battery > bank directly and has it’s own controls, independent from the inverter. > > https://wildcatpowergen.com/pages/maverick > > Michael D Nelson > MD Electric & Solar, Inc. > 707-684-0064 mobile > 707-884-1862 office > www.mdelectricsolar.com > www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar > > > On Dec 2, 2021, at 6:27 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > >  > Hi Jay, > > Is the plan to feed DC current (from generator and grid) into the > batteries and keep the inverters as power source for loads? > > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:30 AM Darryl Thayer > wrote: > >> Jay I am confused as usual, what are the loads? AC or DC? How are you >> charging the battery from the generator or how is the battery powering the >> loads? What is the desired current or the size of the generator? sorry >> if this I dumb question >> >> On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:23 PM Jay wrote: >> >>> I got a call from a colleague that is designing a very large roughly >>> 90-100 kWh lithium battery at 48v. >>> >>> He’s looking for large AC chargers to charge this bank. The reason is >>> total elimination of switch over delay from inverter to generator and back. >>> >>> One technique is to use inverters for this, but pretty pricey. >>> >>> Any recommendations as to equipment, brands etc? >>> >>> It would be a 208 3 phase AC side powered by a generator. >>> >>> Thx >>> Jay >>> >>> Peltz power. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > > *Michael **Morningstar* > > * Morningstar Electric* > PO Box 1494 > Mount Shasta, California 96067 > 530-921-0560 > CSLB 949635 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SmallGif.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Fri Dec 3 03:35:49 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 00:35:49 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> Hello Jay, This was my same dilemma I posted about recently although not 208. Have you considered SMA Islands in a Multicluster system? I did one last year and other than tracking down a mis-wire on the CT’s in the Multicluster box it’s been working extremely well. Do you know what brand of batteries yet? Blue Ions are closed loop communications with the Islands now so it works beautifully. There’s some reasonable deals on many of the Sunny Island 6048’s right now from the DC Solar auctions too. One of the last ones just ended yesterday actually. It would likely be easy to find many at 25-33% less than the old distributor’s pricing. Would love to hear what you decide to do with this. Best of luck, Nick > On Dec 2, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Jay wrote: > > Hi all > > Sorry I guess I didn’t explain the clients wants well enough > > 1. 90-100kwh+ 48 vdc lithium battery > 2. 208 3 phase AC generator powering 48v nominal battery chargers. > 208-3phase as that is the house/EE design voltage. > 3. AC generator because it’s back up if the inverters fail, so no DC generator. > 4. Client doesn’t want any drop outs or have to reset clocks etc during generator/inverter- charging/switchover. > 5. Inverter size is not decided yet, probably 40-80kw. > 6. Generator size isn’t specified yet, but given the loads 60-125kw probably. > Size would be based on battery charging or max ac load which ever is larger. > > That leads me external chargers. > > I’m looking for large programmable battery chargers for lithium batteries powered from a 208-3phase ac generator in the 60-125 kw size range. > > Thanks > > Jay > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 10:39:42 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 07:39:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> Message-ID: <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> HI Nick, Thanks for the idea. I didn’t consider theSMA/ SI/MC because at this point its a legacy product and I wouldn't want to have to deal with potential lack of parts, technical support or warranty should something go wrong. Also my understanding is that the MC box for larger systems isn’t UL listed? I think my buddy is probably going with Sol-Ark’s. He’s done a few large ones already and has an understanding of most of the bugs and work arounds. Its why he wants external chargers as he has had some real issues with inverters turning off on generator shut down. Sol-ark is working on some kind of fix, but its a known issue. thank jay > On Dec 3, 2021, at 12:35 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: > > Hello Jay, > > This was my same dilemma I posted about recently although not 208. Have you considered SMA Islands in a Multicluster system? I did one last year and other than tracking down a mis-wire on the CT’s in the Multicluster box it’s been working extremely well. Do you know what brand of batteries yet? Blue Ions are closed loop communications with the Islands now so it works beautifully. There’s some reasonable deals on many of the Sunny Island 6048’s right now from the DC Solar auctions too. One of the last ones just ended yesterday actually. It would likely be easy to find many at 25-33% less than the old distributor’s pricing. > > Would love to hear what you decide to do with this. Best of luck, Nick > > > > >> On Dec 2, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Jay wrote: >> >> Hi all >> >> Sorry I guess I didn’t explain the clients wants well enough >> >> 1. 90-100kwh+ 48 vdc lithium battery >> 2. 208 3 phase AC generator powering 48v nominal battery chargers. >> 208-3phase as that is the house/EE design voltage. >> 3. AC generator because it’s back up if the inverters fail, so no DC generator. >> 4. Client doesn’t want any drop outs or have to reset clocks etc during generator/inverter- charging/switchover. >> 5. Inverter size is not decided yet, probably 40-80kw. >> 6. Generator size isn’t specified yet, but given the loads 60-125kw probably. >> Size would be based on battery charging or max ac load which ever is larger. >> >> That leads me external chargers. >> >> I’m looking for large programmable battery chargers for lithium batteries powered from a 208-3phase ac generator in the 60-125 kw size range. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jay >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > From jay.peltz at gmail.com Fri Dec 3 10:42:46 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 07:42:46 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small lithium chargers, say 20-50 amps In-Reply-To: <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <042ED31B-062A-46E4-85A8-C98023D8CDEA@gmail.com> As larger chargers are seemingly hard to come by, let me ask a different question. What about smaller 20-50 amp 48v nominal chargers that are programable for lithium. Again 208vac input. Jay From kirkh at vermont.solar Fri Dec 3 11:13:01 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 11:13:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] small lithium chargers, say 20-50 amps In-Reply-To: <042ED31B-062A-46E4-85A8-C98023D8CDEA@gmail.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> <042ED31B-062A-46E4-85A8-C98023D8CDEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: At the risk of stating the obvious, If you are talking 208 L - L single phase, use the chargers in multiples of three to balance the load on whatever AC source you're charging from. If the charger has to be fed 240 single phase, 208-240v buck-boost xformers will do the job. The old stand by 240vac to 48vdc chargers of my preference are the Lester models. On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 10:55 AM jay wrote: > As larger chargers are seemingly hard to come by, let me ask a different > question. > > What about smaller 20-50 amp 48v nominal chargers that are programable > for lithium. > Again 208vac input. > > Jay > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucchesesolar at me.com Sat Dec 4 14:14:31 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 11:14:31 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Large lithium chargers In-Reply-To: <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> Good morning Jay, I didn’t know that the MC wasn’t UL listed, didn’t come up for my system last year. It’s quite the enclosure. I too originally thought they were discontinuing it but I don’t believe that’s the case anymore but maybe there’s new information regarding that. I had heard they are sticking with the Islands since it’s proven and robust and they’ve got nothing else until they release a 3 phase 30 KW product at some point soon. Maybe that’s the solution you’re waiting for (speculated solutions woohoo). SMA’s willingness to work on closed loop communications with Blue Planet and others was supposedly proof the Islands were going to be around for awhile. I had to wait many months for the piggyback cards after they said they were discontinued then the tune changed some time later. I don’t see the MCB on my usual distributors sites so perhaps they really are gone. Looks like many of the 6048 Islands went for a bit under $2k at the recent auction so in the end might be about the same price offered by distributors. Enjoy the weekend, Nick > On Dec 3, 2021, at 7:39 AM, jay wrote: > > HI Nick, > > Thanks for the idea. I didn’t consider theSMA/ SI/MC because at this point its a legacy product and I wouldn't want to have to deal with potential lack of parts, technical support or warranty should something go wrong. > > Also my understanding is that the MC box for larger systems isn’t UL listed? > > I think my buddy is probably going with Sol-Ark’s. He’s done a few large ones already and has an understanding of most of the bugs and work arounds. > > Its why he wants external chargers as he has had some real issues with inverters turning off on generator shut down. Sol-ark is working on some kind of fix, but its a known issue. > > thank > > jay > > > >> On Dec 3, 2021, at 12:35 AM, Nick A Lucchese wrote: >> >> Hello Jay, >> >> This was my same dilemma I posted about recently although not 208. Have you considered SMA Islands in a Multicluster system? I did one last year and other than tracking down a mis-wire on the CT’s in the Multicluster box it’s been working extremely well. Do you know what brand of batteries yet? Blue Ions are closed loop communications with the Islands now so it works beautifully. There’s some reasonable deals on many of the Sunny Island 6048’s right now from the DC Solar auctions too. One of the last ones just ended yesterday actually. It would likely be easy to find many at 25-33% less than the old distributor’s pricing. >> >> Would love to hear what you decide to do with this. Best of luck, Nick >> >> >> >> >>> On Dec 2, 2021, at 7:53 AM, Jay wrote: >>> >>> Hi all >>> >>> Sorry I guess I didn’t explain the clients wants well enough >>> >>> 1. 90-100kwh+ 48 vdc lithium battery >>> 2. 208 3 phase AC generator powering 48v nominal battery chargers. >>> 208-3phase as that is the house/EE design voltage. >>> 3. AC generator because it’s back up if the inverters fail, so no DC generator. >>> 4. Client doesn’t want any drop outs or have to reset clocks etc during generator/inverter- charging/switchover. >>> 5. Inverter size is not decided yet, probably 40-80kw. >>> 6. Generator size isn’t specified yet, but given the loads 60-125kw probably. >>> Size would be based on battery charging or max ac load which ever is larger. >>> >>> That leads me external chargers. >>> >>> I’m looking for large programmable battery chargers for lithium batteries powered from a 208-3phase ac generator in the 60-125 kw size range. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Jay >>> >> From frenergy at psln.com Mon Dec 6 23:45:51 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:45:51 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-PVs In-Reply-To: <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> Message-ID: <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> Wrenches,             Not sure if AC panels are being installed yet, am I living under a rock?  We've been really happy with LG NeON 370 watt panels and wondering if anybody has installed any of their AC panels yet: https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg380m1c-a6 or any other AC PVs.  The LGs may still be vaporware. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Dec 7 08:27:39 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 08:27:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-PVs In-Reply-To: <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, I started installing the LG AC modules this year. So far they seem like a great product. I have about 120 of them in the field so far, but I have had 0 issues. I used to install the Sunpower AC modules, but I like these more. There are no DC leads at all. There are just AC cables coming out of the microinverter on the back that connect to the next panel, so there is no AC drop cable. It takes a little getting used to the best ways to wire manage, but I've been finding it pretty straightforward. The commissioning process goes much more smoothly than it ever did with Sunpower. Two minor drawbacks - One is that with the commissioning, the customer needs to log in and approve the system before the monitoring will work. Two, is that the panel and microinverter are entirely one piece, so that if a microinverter were to fail the entire unit needs to get replaced. LG does offer a $450 labor reimbursement, and I have not had any issues yet, but that will be a more involved service than a simple microinverter replacement. Overall, these sell at a good price point and make for a simple installation. I wish that they would still offer AC panels in their NeON R line as well, but supposedly they were not selling very many of those. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 11:42 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Not sure if AC panels are being installed yet, am I living > under a rock? We've been really happy with LG NeON 370 watt panels and > wondering if anybody has installed any of their AC panels yet: > > https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg380m1c-a6 > > or any other AC PVs. The LGs may still be vaporware. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 08:28:35 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 06:28:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-PVs In-Reply-To: <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, My experience with AC panels is minimal but I wasn't too happy with them. I was using a Solaria 355 with a IQ7+ micro. We came away feeling like there was very little advantage with the AC panel except the wire management. What I didn't like is that it forces your rail to be in a very small range to comply with our snow load (at least with this version) because the microinverter position is fixed on the panel and is positioned below the frame. This adds more constraints to your layout. Just don't see much advantage. Thanks On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:42 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Not sure if AC panels are being installed yet, am I living > under a rock? We've been really happy with LG NeON 370 watt panels and > wondering if anybody has installed any of their AC panels yet: > > https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg380m1c-a6 > > or any other AC PVs. The LGs may still be vaporware. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Wed Dec 8 00:08:26 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 21:08:26 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-PVs In-Reply-To: References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> Message-ID: <2e909ce0-58e4-5916-d791-8c16446bc4ee@psln.com> That's a pretty hefty reimbursement for replacing a failed unit, they must of actually been thinking about the installer.  I also like the high efficiency PV they paired it with, 395 watts and its still 60 cell,  inverter 97% CEC .             Sorry about the wrong link, here's the correct one: https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-r/lg-lg395a1c-a6             Should I assume that if the fire department pulls the meter at a house fire, that qualifies as rapid shutdown? Bill On 12/7/2021 5:27 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi Bill, > I started installing the LG AC modules this year. So far they seem > like a great product. I have about 120 of them in the field so far, > but I have had 0 issues. I used to install the Sunpower AC modules, > but I like these more. There are no DC leads at all. There are just AC > cables coming out of the microinverter on the back that connect to the > next panel, so there is no AC drop cable. It takes a little getting > used to the best ways to wire manage, but I've been finding it pretty > straightforward. The commissioning process goes much more smoothly > than it ever did with Sunpower. Two minor drawbacks - One is that with > the commissioning, the customer needs to log in and approve the system > before the monitoring will work. Two, is that the panel and > microinverter are entirely one piece, so that if a microinverter were > to fail the entire unit needs to get replaced. LG does offer a $450 > labor reimbursement, and I have not had any issues yet, but that will > be a more involved service than a simple microinverter replacement. > Overall, these sell at a good price point and make for a simple > installation. I wish that they would still offer AC panels in their > NeON R line as well, but supposedly they were not selling very many of > those. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 11:42 PM frenergy wrote: > > Wrenches, > >              Not sure if AC panels are being installed yet, am I > living > under a rock?  We've been really happy with LG NeON 370 watt > panels and > wondering if anybody has installed any of their AC panels yet: > > https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg380m1c-a6 > > or any other AC PVs.  The LGs may still be vaporware. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > Logo > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Wed Dec 8 15:23:41 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 15:23:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-PVs In-Reply-To: <2e909ce0-58e4-5916-d791-8c16446bc4ee@psln.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> <2e909ce0-58e4-5916-d791-8c16446bc4ee@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, Your assumption is right about the rapid shutdown. Like any microinverter, as soon as you cut grid power, the output goes to 0V. Actually funny you mention the 395w AC panels. I am fairly certain that LG stopped making the AC panels in their NeON R line, which is that second link you sent. I was told they were not moving enough of those AC panels so they stopped making them. You might still be able to find some of them out there from suppliers in their random stock, but they are no longer actively stocked. They are actively producing the AC panels in their NeON 2 line, which is the 380w ones from your first link. My supplier should be getting the 380's by around the new year, as they just switched over from the 375's. Then there are also 370w ones with the black backsheet. ( https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg370m1k-a6). Cheers, Dave On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:04 AM frenergy wrote: > That's a pretty hefty reimbursement for replacing a failed unit, they must > of actually been thinking about the installer. I also like the high > efficiency PV they paired it with, 395 watts and its still 60 cell, > inverter 97% CEC . > > Sorry about the wrong link, here's the correct one: > > https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-r/lg-lg395a1c-a6 > > Should I assume that if the fire department pulls the meter at > a house fire, that qualifies as rapid shutdown? > > Bill > On 12/7/2021 5:27 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: > > Hi Bill, > I started installing the LG AC modules this year. So far they seem like a > great product. I have about 120 of them in the field so far, but I have had > 0 issues. I used to install the Sunpower AC modules, but I like these more. > There are no DC leads at all. There are just AC cables coming out of the > microinverter on the back that connect to the next panel, so there is no AC > drop cable. It takes a little getting used to the best ways to wire manage, > but I've been finding it pretty straightforward. The commissioning process > goes much more smoothly than it ever did with Sunpower. Two minor drawbacks > - One is that with the commissioning, the customer needs to log in and > approve the system before the monitoring will work. Two, is that the panel > and microinverter are entirely one piece, so that if a microinverter were > to fail the entire unit needs to get replaced. LG does offer a $450 labor > reimbursement, and I have not had any issues yet, but that will be a more > involved service than a simple microinverter replacement. Overall, these > sell at a good price point and make for a simple installation. I wish that > they would still offer AC panels in their NeON R line as well, but > supposedly they were not selling very many of those. > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 11:42 PM frenergy wrote: > >> Wrenches, >> >> Not sure if AC panels are being installed yet, am I living >> under a rock? We've been really happy with LG NeON 370 watt panels and >> wondering if anybody has installed any of their AC panels yet: >> >> https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg380m1c-a6 >> >> or any other AC PVs. The LGs may still be vaporware. >> >> Bill >> >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049 >> www.frenergy.net >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_3738637056218207853_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From august at luminalt.com Wed Dec 8 16:37:52 2021 From: august at luminalt.com (August Goers) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 13:37:52 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-PVs In-Reply-To: References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> <2e909ce0-58e4-5916-d791-8c16446bc4ee@psln.com> Message-ID: Just a quick note on rapid shutdown, check out 2017 NEC 690.12(C): [image: image.png] Pulling the utility meter doesn't meet the code requirements, but the service disconnecting means breaker typically would as long as you don't have energy storage on site, which might keep the PV system on even after the main switch is turned off. August On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:23 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi Bill, > Your assumption is right about the rapid shutdown. Like any microinverter, > as soon as you cut grid power, the output goes to 0V. > Actually funny you mention the 395w AC panels. I am fairly certain that LG > stopped making the AC panels in their NeON R line, which is that second > link you sent. I was told they were not moving enough of those AC panels so > they stopped making them. You might still be able to find some of them out > there from suppliers in their random stock, but they are no longer actively > stocked. They are actively producing the AC panels in their NeON 2 line, > which is the 380w ones from your first link. My supplier should be getting > the 380's by around the new year, as they just switched over from the > 375's. Then there are also 370w ones with the black backsheet. ( > https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg370m1k-a6). > > Cheers, > Dave > > On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 12:04 AM frenergy wrote: > >> That's a pretty hefty reimbursement for replacing a failed unit, they >> must of actually been thinking about the installer. I also like the high >> efficiency PV they paired it with, 395 watts and its still 60 cell, >> inverter 97% CEC . >> >> Sorry about the wrong link, here's the correct one: >> >> https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-r/lg-lg395a1c-a6 >> >> Should I assume that if the fire department pulls the meter >> at a house fire, that qualifies as rapid shutdown? >> >> Bill >> On 12/7/2021 5:27 AM, Dave Tedeyan wrote: >> >> Hi Bill, >> I started installing the LG AC modules this year. So far they seem like a >> great product. I have about 120 of them in the field so far, but I have had >> 0 issues. I used to install the Sunpower AC modules, but I like these more. >> There are no DC leads at all. There are just AC cables coming out of the >> microinverter on the back that connect to the next panel, so there is no AC >> drop cable. It takes a little getting used to the best ways to wire manage, >> but I've been finding it pretty straightforward. The commissioning process >> goes much more smoothly than it ever did with Sunpower. Two minor drawbacks >> - One is that with the commissioning, the customer needs to log in and >> approve the system before the monitoring will work. Two, is that the panel >> and microinverter are entirely one piece, so that if a microinverter were >> to fail the entire unit needs to get replaced. LG does offer a $450 labor >> reimbursement, and I have not had any issues yet, but that will be a more >> involved service than a simple microinverter replacement. Overall, these >> sell at a good price point and make for a simple installation. I wish that >> they would still offer AC panels in their NeON R line as well, but >> supposedly they were not selling very many of those. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 11:42 PM frenergy wrote: >> >>> Wrenches, >>> >>> Not sure if AC panels are being installed yet, am I living >>> under a rock? We've been really happy with LG NeON 370 watt panels and >>> wondering if anybody has installed any of their AC panels yet: >>> >>> https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg380m1c-a6 >>> >>> or any other AC PVs. The LGs may still be vaporware. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> Feather River Solar Electric >>> Bill Battagin, Owner >>> 4291 Nelson St. >>> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >>> 530.284.7849 >>> CA Lic 874049 >>> www.frenergy.net >>> >>> >>> -- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 288-2898 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> -- >> Feather River Solar Electric >> Bill Battagin, Owner >> 4291 Nelson St. >> Taylorsville, CA 95983 >> 530.284.7849 >> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net >> >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_5661742227748635935_m_3738637056218207853_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 93616 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Dec 8 23:46:50 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 20:46:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC-PVs In-Reply-To: <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> References: <73E49AE0-1140-427D-A479-D2116DE569F4@gmail.com> <2888C814-FCDB-4426-91C3-B01649F2E5DD@gmail.com> <900009C2-751F-47E1-8B80-422CC0111235@me.com> <0B1D02D2-DC84-4DC5-B717-67741B236CE5@gmail.com> <9946F34B-7F06-493E-86DD-E23269C11196@me.com> <2b6c8008-de4d-bea8-5b59-ede471458e04@psln.com> Message-ID: They have been building and selling inverter wired modules, nothing special, they are a novelty then and now. Good micro inverters or better yet is oprimizers have so far been better then brand X inverters that if in the event there is a failure where do you go. But thats just me. On Mon, Dec 6, 2021, 8:42 PM frenergy wrote: > Wrenches, > > Not sure if AC panels are being installed yet, am I living > under a rock? We've been really happy with LG NeON 370 watt panels and > wondering if anybody has installed any of their AC panels yet: > > https://www.lg.com/us/business/neon-2/lg-lg380m1c-a6 > > or any other AC PVs. The LGs may still be vaporware. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > www.frenergy.net > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Allan at sindelarsolar.com Fri Dec 10 02:38:45 2021 From: Allan at sindelarsolar.com (Sindelar Solar) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:38:45 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component Message-ID: What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace SW Remote display unit with the cable included, please? Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to get a sense of the range among us Wrenches. Thank you, Allan -- *Allan Sindelar* allan at sindelarsolar.com New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 cell* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Fri Dec 10 04:14:50 2021 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 01:14:50 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Bus Bar Message-ID: <588724FC-4C90-4B00-A2D7-ABAABF848E7E@solareagle.com> Hi Wrenches, I am supplying my first lithium batteries, Simpliphi 24v 3.8 kw x 3 units. I’m looking for bus bar options. The Simpliphi version is very pricey -over $700 MSRP in Canada and I’m not sure why. Looking for any suggestions as to what others have used. I can find something like this on Amazon for 1/10th the price for a pair. The cable length would have to be longer to accommodate battery arrangement but that would still be far less expensive. Ron Solareagle.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-12-10 at 1.04.58 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 393422 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Dec 10 06:20:52 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 05:20:52 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Bus Bar In-Reply-To: <588724FC-4C90-4B00-A2D7-ABAABF848E7E@solareagle.com> References: <588724FC-4C90-4B00-A2D7-ABAABF848E7E@solareagle.com> Message-ID: <9163AA3E-190B-4229-99E9-CE19EB462AC1@mavericksolar.com> I found the Victron Energy Lynx Distributor to be an interesting product for this application. Purchase fuses separately. Victron Energy Lynx Distributor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FML8JHG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_GJANVE4VBKSQN6FY8F6D?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 There is 5v mod to make fuse blown led indicators work without other Victron equipment. https://youtu.be/8h-E1lkYCKg Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. • Solar Commander Remote Power • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com 512-460-9825 > On Dec 10, 2021, at 3:15 AM, Ron Young wrote: > > Hi Wrenches, I am supplying my first lithium batteries, Simpliphi 24v 3.8 kw x 3 units. I’m looking for bus bar options. The Simpliphi version is very pricey -over $700 MSRP in Canada and I’m not sure why. Looking for any suggestions as to what others have used. I can find something like this on Amazon for 1/10th the price for a pair. The cable length would have to be longer to accommodate battery arrangement but that would still be far less expensive. > > Ron > Solareagle.com > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screen Shot 2021-12-10 at 1.04.58 AM.png Type: image/png Size: 64825 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Dec 10 11:27:47 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 08:27:47 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ba06e05-fe8a-0b9a-be5f-41e5e3b0fc85@psln.com> Yikes, that's a tough one. Was it an old one on a dusty shelf? was it given to you or pulled off an old system, or Ebay?  I have no idea what they originally cost.  Christmas is coming..... Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 On 12/9/2021 11:38 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: > What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace > SW Remote display unit with the cable included, please? > Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to > get a sense of the range among us Wrenches. > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FRSE%20logo.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 53087 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at OasisMontana.com Fri Dec 10 11:42:57 2021 From: chris at OasisMontana.com (chris at OasisMontana.com) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:42:57 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext MPPT60-150 controller and LFP batteries Message-ID: <008701d7ede4$fd4eb840$f7ec28c0$@OasisMontana.com> Hi folks: We’re helping out a fellow who’s upgrading his battery bank and is seriously considering SimpliPhi’s LFP batteries. His charge controller is the Schneider Conext MPPT60-150; I’m looking at the specs for it and am wondering if it will really accommodate the lithium technology? We had problems with older Schneider products (and poor product support) and have generally shied away from them, so any advice you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Sincerely, Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maverick at mavericksolar.com Fri Dec 10 12:19:54 2021 From: maverick at mavericksolar.com (Maverick Brown) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 11:19:54 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext MPPT60-150 controller and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: <008701d7ede4$fd4eb840$f7ec28c0$@OasisMontana.com> References: <008701d7ede4$fd4eb840$f7ec28c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Chris, It should be fine. I have a few deployments using LFP batteries, including SimpliPhi 3.8s on XW-MPPT60-150, etc. I figured since Fortress and Discover have similar documents, SimpliPhi would as well: https://simpliphipower.com/wp-content/uploads/documentation/phi-series/simpliphi-power-phi-battery-schneider-integration-guide.pdf I recommend upgrading the charge controller to the latest v1.09 software. If you don’t have a COMBOX or setup tool, that may be harder than doable. Good Luck! Maverick Brown Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection maverick at mavericksolar.com Work: 512-919-4493 Cell: 512-460-9825 > On Dec 10, 2021, at 10:42 AM, wrote: > > Hi folks: > > We’re helping out a fellow who’s upgrading his battery bank and is seriously considering SimpliPhi’s LFP batteries. His charge controller is the Schneider Conext MPPT60-150; I’m looking at the specs for it and am wondering if it will really accommodate the lithium technology? We had problems with older Schneider products (and poor product support) and have generally shied away from them, so any advice you can offer would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance! > > Sincerely, > > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From solareagle at solareagle.com Fri Dec 10 15:43:34 2021 From: solareagle at solareagle.com (Ron Young) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 12:43:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component In-Reply-To: <8ba06e05-fe8a-0b9a-be5f-41e5e3b0fc85@psln.com> References: <8ba06e05-fe8a-0b9a-be5f-41e5e3b0fc85@psln.com> Message-ID: Hi Allan, if you haven’t sold it I had a customer looking for one just last week. Ron Solareagle.com > On Dec 10, 2021, at 8:27 AM, frenergy wrote: > > Yikes, that's a tough one. Was it an old one on a dusty shelf? was it given to you or pulled off an old system, or Ebay? I have no idea what they originally cost. Christmas is coming..... > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > Bill Battagin, Owner > 4291 Nelson St. > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > 530.284.7849 > CA Lic 874049 > > > > > > On 12/9/2021 11:38 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote: >> What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace SW Remote display unit with the cable included, please? >> Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to get a sense of the range among us Wrenches. >> Thank you, >> Allan >> -- >> Allan Sindelar >> allan at sindelarsolar.com >> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >> 505 780-2738 cell >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > -- > > Virus-free. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 20:42:11 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:42:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Truely it depends, if someone is looking and needing that part, the sky is the limit, its its just going from one shelf to another will next to Nothing. I have SMA, Trace and bogart monitors all antiques now unless you find that guy that wants and needs it. So 25.00 to 200.00 Jerry On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 11:38 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace SW > Remote display unit with the cable included, please? > Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to get > a sense of the range among us Wrenches. > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ray at solarray.com Fri Dec 10 20:55:43 2021 From: ray at solarray.com (Ray Walters) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:55:43 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All else fails, I just would go back to the Trace retail, give it a 10% for being used, and call it good.   $165?    no one will complain about that.... On 12/10/2021 6:42 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Truely it depends, if someone is looking and needing that part, the > sky is the limit, its its just going from one shelf to another will > next to Nothing. I have SMA, Trace and bogart monitors all antiques > now unless you find that guy that wants and needs it. > So 25.00 to 200.00 > Jerry > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 11:38 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > > What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used > Trace SW Remote display unit with the cable included, please? > Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply > like to get a sense of the range among us Wrenches. > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, > try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From darylsolar1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 10 22:47:28 2021 From: darylsolar1 at gmail.com (Darryl Thayer) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 21:47:28 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Conext MPPT60-150 controller and LFP batteries In-Reply-To: References: <008701d7ede4$fd4eb840$f7ec28c0$@OasisMontana.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, I have used the above configuration with success. Here are some background ideas. I have done some simpliphi installs however I am old and these are five to 7 years ago. The Simpliphi's I installed had a top balance BMS. (When one of the cells reaches full charge voltage, the BMS bypasses the full cell and reduces the charge current to the 'top-balance' current. The Simpliphi's I installed over two years became out of balance because the small amount of 'top-balance' current did not complete the charge on some of the cells. With some cells having a low state of charge the battery shuts down for lack of charge, acting with lower capacity. This was my case, cured by putting the batteries on an on-grid charger for an extended period. The solution is to have the system charge faster such that the CC could hold the batteries in top balance. I have not had enough experience with other Li batteries to comment on their BMS. And maybe the new batteries have a higher top balance current a faster to reach full charge. sorry for the poor explanation. The Simpliphi to be CC agnostic. On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 12:31 PM Maverick Brown wrote: > Chris, > > It should be fine. I have a few deployments using LFP batteries, including > SimpliPhi 3.8s on XW-MPPT60-150, etc. > > I figured since Fortress and Discover have similar documents, SimpliPhi > would as well: > > > https://simpliphipower.com/wp-content/uploads/documentation/phi-series/simpliphi-power-phi-battery-schneider-integration-guide.pdf > > I recommend upgrading the charge controller to the latest v1.09 software. > If you don’t have a COMBOX or setup tool, that may be harder than doable. > > Good Luck! > > > > Maverick Brown > Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006 > Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. > SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection > maverick at mavericksolar.com > Work: 512-919-4493 > Cell: 512-460-9825 > > On Dec 10, 2021, at 10:42 AM, < > chris at OasisMontana.com> wrote: > > Hi folks: > > We’re helping out a fellow who’s upgrading his battery bank and is > seriously considering SimpliPhi’s LFP batteries. His charge controller > is the Schneider Conext MPPT60-150; I’m looking at the specs for it and > am wondering if it will really accommodate the lithium technology? We > had problems with older Schneider products (and poor product support) and > have generally shied away from them, so any advice you can offer would be > appreciated. > > Thanks in advance! > > Sincerely, > Chris Daum > Oasis Montana Inc. > 406-777-4309 or 4321 > 406-777-4309 fax > www.oasismontana.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sat Dec 11 10:36:01 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:36:01 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a8ec0bf6b348edece01ce8e96ce407e@redwoodalliance.org> Another legacy item I would like to find a value for is a 15 year old VFX 3524 off grid inverter. The AC voltage fluctuates a bit, so maybe it could use another control board. The cover plate (valve cover) is missing. Otherwise it works. I did an upgrade on a system and offered to buy the old components, but have little idea what this old Outback is worth. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-12-10 20:55, Ray Walters wrote: > All else fails, I just would go back to the Trace retail, give it a 10% for being used, and call it good. $165? no one will complain about that.... > > On 12/10/2021 6:42 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > Truely it depends, if someone is looking and needing that part, the sky is the limit, its its just going from one shelf to another will next to Nothing. I have SMA, Trace and bogart monitors all antiques now unless you find that guy that wants and needs it. > So 25.00 to 200.00 > Jerry > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 11:38 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: > What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace SW Remote display unit with the cable included, please? > Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to get a sense of the range among us Wrenches. > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > Allan Sindelar > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > 505 780-2738 cell > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Sat Dec 11 11:00:32 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 09:00:32 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component In-Reply-To: <1a8ec0bf6b348edece01ce8e96ce407e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1a8ec0bf6b348edece01ce8e96ce407e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: Hi Drake Just like with Allan’s remote, I couldn’t find any used ones on line to even give an idea of cost comparison. I must be doing my searches wrong. A new inverter is about $1700, a replacement board is $350. So if you got $500 for it, + the $350 puts you at $850 or about 1/2 price for a 15 year old component, which seems too high to me. If you asked $250, then it’s about 1/3 of the cost of new, which sounds ok to me. But damn that’s not much for it. Almost worth keeping as a loaner or spare at that price. Jay Peltz power. > On Dec 11, 2021, at 8:36 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > Another legacy item I would like to find a value for is a 15 year old VFX 3524 off grid inverter. The AC voltage fluctuates a bit, so maybe it could use another control board. The cover plate (valve cover) is missing. Otherwise it works. > > I did an upgrade on a system and offered to buy the old components, but have little idea what this old Outback is worth. > > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > --- > > > >> On 2021-12-10 20:55, Ray Walters wrote: >> >> All else fails, I just would go back to the Trace retail, give it a 10% for being used, and call it good. $165? no one will complain about that.... >> >>> On 12/10/2021 6:42 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> Truely it depends, if someone is looking and needing that part, the sky is the limit, its its just going from one shelf to another will next to Nothing. I have SMA, Trace and bogart monitors all antiques now unless you find that guy that wants and needs it. >>> So 25.00 to 200.00 >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 11:38 PM Sindelar Solar wrote: >>> What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace SW Remote display unit with the cable included, please? >>> Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to get a sense of the range among us Wrenches. >>> Thank you, >>> Allan >>> -- >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tump at swnl.net Sat Dec 11 11:47:39 2021 From: tump at swnl.net (Tump) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:47:39 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component In-Reply-To: <1a8ec0bf6b348edece01ce8e96ce407e@redwoodalliance.org> References: <1a8ec0bf6b348edece01ce8e96ce407e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: <03C3B9B1-4C8B-4B7B-8264-80BC4E7AF4C8@swnl.net> I have a few 3648 VFXs some are 2005 and 4 are 2015 I ask 250.00 for them OR i just bless the DYI folks with all the accumulated BOS stuff i collect. Santa was here……. > On Dec 11, 2021, at 10:36 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > Another legacy item I would like to find a value for is a 15 year old VFX 3524 off grid inverter. The AC voltage fluctuates a bit, so maybe it could use another control board. The cover plate (valve cover) is missing. Otherwise it works. > > I did an upgrade on a system and offered to buy the old components, but have little idea what this old Outback is worth. > > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > --- > > > > On 2021-12-10 20:55, Ray Walters wrote: > >> All else fails, I just would go back to the Trace retail, give it a 10% for being used, and call it good. $165? no one will complain about that.... >> >> On 12/10/2021 6:42 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: >>> Truely it depends, if someone is looking and needing that part, the sky is the limit, its its just going from one shelf to another will next to Nothing. I have SMA, Trace and bogart monitors all antiques now unless you find that guy that wants and needs it. >>> So 25.00 to 200.00 >>> Jerry >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 11:38 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: >>> What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace SW Remote display unit with the cable included, please? >>> Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to get a sense of the range among us Wrenches. >>> Thank you, >>> Allan >>> -- >>> Allan Sindelar >>> allan at sindelarsolar.com >>> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician >>> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. >>> 505 780-2738 cell >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Tump 3391 at gmail.com www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.blittersdorf at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 08:01:20 2021 From: john.blittersdorf at gmail.com (John Blittersdorf) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 08:01:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fair price for an obsolete component In-Reply-To: References: <1a8ec0bf6b348edece01ce8e96ce407e@redwoodalliance.org> Message-ID: If the need is for a second VFX inverter to add to an existing one to double charge rate for a new LiFePO battery, then it is worth 3 Iota chargers ~ $1000. On Saturday, December 11, 2021, Jay wrote: > Hi Drake > > Just like with Allan’s remote, I couldn’t find any used ones on line to > even give an idea of cost comparison. I must be doing my searches wrong. > > A new inverter is about $1700, a replacement board is $350. So if you got > $500 for it, + the $350 puts you at $850 or about 1/2 price for a 15 year > old component, which seems too high to me. If you asked $250, then it’s > about 1/3 of the cost of new, which sounds ok to me. But damn that’s not > much for it. > > Almost worth keeping as a loaner or spare at that price. > > Jay > > Peltz power. > > > On Dec 11, 2021, at 8:36 AM, drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org wrote: > >  > > Another legacy item I would like to find a value for is a 15 year old VFX > 3524 off grid inverter. The AC voltage fluctuates a bit, so maybe it could > use another control board. The cover plate (valve cover) is missing. > Otherwise it works. > > I did an upgrade on a system and offered to buy the old components, but > have little idea what this old Outback is worth. > > > Drake Chamberlin > > Athens Electric LLC > > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > --- > > > > On 2021-12-10 20:55, Ray Walters wrote: > > All else fails, I just would go back to the Trace retail, give it a 10% > for being used, and call it good. $165? no one will complain about > that.... > On 12/10/2021 6:42 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: > > Truely it depends, if someone is looking and needing that part, the sky is > the limit, its its just going from one shelf to another will next to > Nothing. I have SMA, Trace and bogart monitors all antiques now unless you > find that guy that wants and needs it. > So 25.00 to 200.00 > Jerry > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 11:38 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote: > > What would be a fair and equitable price to ask for a good used Trace SW > Remote display unit with the cable included, please? > Obviously there will likely be a range of opinions. I'd simply like to get > a sense of the range among us Wrenches. > Thank you, > Allan > -- > > *Allan Sindelar* > allan at sindelarsolar.com > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. > *505 780-2738 cell* > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Sun Dec 12 22:02:20 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 22:02:20 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Weather sealing between panels Message-ID: Hi all, I've been searching for a reasonable solution to sealing between panels, such as you might do on a carport that uses the panels for water shedding. I typically use Ironridge rails, so the gaps are small. I've stumbled across a gasket system from Sun Modo, but that doesn't look like it would fit with the small gaps that Ironridge provides, and from what I can see it would be quite expensive as well. I've also seen a foil backed butyl type tape that might work functionally well, but seems like it would potentially be rather ugly especially if panels were dark framed. There must be at least several options out there given the number of carports. I have never had a call for this as the carpets and sheds I've done to date have had an integral roof that provided the weather sealing. Any products, leads, creative ideas that anyone has would be most welcome. Thanks, Howie Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Dec 13 08:45:35 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 08:45:35 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Weather sealing between panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howie, I used the Sunmodo gasket along with bottom-clamping each panel with IR camo clamps, That way you can set the gap between panels to whatever distance works, which if I remember was about 5/8" to get a good fit on the gasket. Generally speaking a gasket of any type can't cover a top clamp "cleanly" and be water-tight. Same goes for cutting the gasket in short strips to butt up to either side of the top clamp. PS I could have used the panel frame holes for bottom mounting also, but the rails were already set and couldn't be moved. The camo method added about $20 per panel. On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 10:02 PM Howie Michaelson < Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been searching for a reasonable solution to sealing between panels, > such as you might do on a carport that uses the panels for water shedding. > I typically use Ironridge rails, so the gaps are small. > > I've stumbled across a gasket system from Sun Modo, but that doesn't look > like it would fit with the small gaps that Ironridge provides, and from > what I can see it would be quite expensive as well. I've also seen a foil > backed butyl type tape that might work functionally well, but seems like it > would potentially be rather ugly especially if panels were dark framed. > > There must be at least several options out there given the number of > carports. I have never had a call for this as the carpets and sheds I've > done to date have had an integral roof that provided the weather sealing. > Any products, leads, creative ideas that anyone has would be most welcome. > > Thanks, > Howie > Howie Michaelson > Sun Catcher > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ > Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service > 802-272-0004 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Dec 13 09:21:50 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 09:21:50 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Weather sealing between panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do the CAMOs provide a bonding path, or do you need to UFO to satisfy UL2703 requirements? I like the idea of using all CAMOs on a ground rack and I have one coming up soon. If for nothing else, I believe it would make a more secure physical connection and should be faster to install. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:46 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > Howie, > I used the Sunmodo gasket along with bottom-clamping each panel with IR > camo clamps, That way you can set the gap between panels to > whatever distance works, which if I remember was about 5/8" to get a good > fit on the gasket. Generally speaking a gasket of any type can't cover a > top clamp "cleanly" and be water-tight. Same goes for cutting the gasket in > short strips to butt up to either side of the top clamp. > > PS I could have used the panel frame holes for bottom mounting also, but > the rails were already set and couldn't be moved. The camo method added > about $20 per panel. > > On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 10:02 PM Howie Michaelson < > Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I've been searching for a reasonable solution to sealing between panels, >> such as you might do on a carport that uses the panels for water shedding. >> I typically use Ironridge rails, so the gaps are small. >> >> I've stumbled across a gasket system from Sun Modo, but that doesn't look >> like it would fit with the small gaps that Ironridge provides, and from >> what I can see it would be quite expensive as well. I've also seen a foil >> backed butyl type tape that might work functionally well, but seems like it >> would potentially be rather ugly especially if panels were dark framed. >> >> There must be at least several options out there given the number of >> carports. I have never had a call for this as the carpets and sheds I've >> done to date have had an integral roof that provided the weather sealing. >> Any products, leads, creative ideas that anyone has would be most welcome. >> >> Thanks, >> Howie >> Howie Michaelson >> Sun Catcher >> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >> 802-272-0004 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Mon Dec 13 10:57:40 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:57:40 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Weather sealing between panels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The camos have "pins" on both attachment points (rail channel and module frame) for bonding. [image: image.png] On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 9:22 AM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Do the CAMOs provide a bonding path, or do you need to UFO to satisfy > UL2703 requirements? I like the idea of using all CAMOs on a ground rack > and I have one coming up soon. If for nothing else, I believe it would make > a more secure physical connection and should be faster to install. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 8:46 AM Kirk Herander wrote: > >> Howie, >> I used the Sunmodo gasket along with bottom-clamping each panel with IR >> camo clamps, That way you can set the gap between panels to >> whatever distance works, which if I remember was about 5/8" to get a good >> fit on the gasket. Generally speaking a gasket of any type can't cover a >> top clamp "cleanly" and be water-tight. Same goes for cutting the gasket in >> short strips to butt up to either side of the top clamp. >> >> PS I could have used the panel frame holes for bottom mounting also, but >> the rails were already set and couldn't be moved. The camo method added >> about $20 per panel. >> >> On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 10:02 PM Howie Michaelson < >> Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I've been searching for a reasonable solution to sealing between panels, >>> such as you might do on a carport that uses the panels for water shedding. >>> I typically use Ironridge rails, so the gaps are small. >>> >>> I've stumbled across a gasket system from Sun Modo, but that doesn't >>> look like it would fit with the small gaps that Ironridge provides, and >>> from what I can see it would be quite expensive as well. I've also seen a >>> foil backed butyl type tape that might work functionally well, but seems >>> like it would potentially be rather ugly especially if panels were dark >>> framed. >>> >>> There must be at least several options out there given the number of >>> carports. I have never had a call for this as the carpets and sheds I've >>> done to date have had an integral roof that provided the weather sealing. >>> Any products, leads, creative ideas that anyone has would be most welcome. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Howie >>> Howie Michaelson >>> Sun Catcher >>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ >>> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service >>> 802-272-0004 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * >> >> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* >> >> *Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!* >> >> *www.vermont.solar* >> >> >> dba Vermont Solar Engineering >> >> 802.863.1202 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 57499 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cwarfel at entech-engineering.com Tue Dec 14 10:04:32 2021 From: cwarfel at entech-engineering.com (Christopher Warfel) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 10:04:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Monthly Reporting Software Update Remove Site ID in Subject Line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I emailed Mr. Soleil this am as it looks like Enphase has fixed the issue above.  I received two reports this am with the site id in the Subject Line.  This is really helpful to us as we now can use our filters to put these reports in the proper customer's file automatically. Thank you Nick, and thank you Enphase.  Chris On 10/28/2021 10:52 AM, Nick Soleil wrote: > Thank you Chris for sharing your concern.  I also noticed this change > a couple days ago.  I'm working this internally and will let you know > what I find out. > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase EnergySenior Product Manager > > (707) 763-4784 x7267  // office > > (707) 321-2937  // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™/ | /The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches on > behalf of Christopher Warfel > *Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2021 7:16 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Monthly Reporting Software Update > Remove Site ID in Subject Line? > *EXTERNAL EMAIL* - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments.* > > Five months ago, our Enphase monthly reports removed the site name > from the Subject line.  After many, many emails and phone calls, today > I was told their software engineers were aware of the problem and they > were not going to fix it. They were working on "more important > things", so too bad, I am sorry.   We had filtered the reports so they > went directly to a customer's folder.  This is a step backwards for > certain and seems pretty stupid from an installer perspective. > > I am wondering if anyone else has this issue. > > All I could find out is that "Steve" at Enphase was in charge of this, > but they would not provide contact information because "He does not > interact with customers." > > > Chris Warfel > > > > > > -- >                 Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 >                                     401-466-8978 > > > --             Christopher Warfel                      ENTECH Engineering, Inc. PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807                                 401-466-8978 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Dec 14 10:46:53 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 10:46:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Monthly Reporting Software Update Remove Site ID in Subject Line? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, this change actually broke one of my filters, but I was able to fix that quickly. It appears they listened to the feedback. That is wonderful. On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 10:04 AM Christopher Warfel < cwarfel at entech-engineering.com> wrote: > I emailed Mr. Soleil this am as it looks like Enphase has fixed the issue > above. I received two reports this am with the site id in the Subject > Line. This is really helpful to us as we now can use our filters to put > these reports in the proper customer's file automatically. Thank you Nick, > and thank you Enphase. Chris > > > > On 10/28/2021 10:52 AM, Nick Soleil wrote: > > Thank you Chris for sharing your concern. I also noticed this change a > couple days ago. I'm working this internally and will let you know what I > find out. > > Cordially, > > Nick Soleil > > Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager > > (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office > > (707) 321-2937 // cell > > *Powering What’s Next*™* | *The Enphase Energy Management System > > > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 > > California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 > ------------------------------ > *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Christopher > Warfel > *Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2021 7:16 AM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Monthly Reporting Software Update Remove > Site ID in Subject Line? > > *EXTERNAL EMAIL* - *Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or > downloading attachments.* > > > > > > Five months ago, our Enphase monthly reports removed the site name from > the Subject line. After many, many emails and phone calls, today I was > told their software engineers were aware of the problem and they were not > going to fix it. They were working on "more important things", so too bad, > I am sorry. We had filtered the reports so they went directly to a > customer's folder. This is a step backwards for certain and seems pretty > stupid from an installer perspective. > > I am wondering if anyone else has this issue. > > All I could find out is that "Steve" at Enphase was in charge of this, but > they would not provide contact information because "He does not interact > with customers." > > > Chris Warfel > > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > > -- > Christopher Warfel > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > 401-466-8978 > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EEIlogolong.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17117 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Tue Dec 14 20:57:28 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:57:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Key for SMA rapid shutdown controller Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone have a source to get a replacement key for SMA's rapid shutdown controller. I have someone who lost their key at some point, and then for some reason initiated rapid shutdown. I have a spare to unlock it, but I am wondering if it is possible to get one without getting the whole controller. Thanks! -Dave -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Tue Dec 14 21:01:53 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 21:01:53 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Key for SMA rapid shutdown controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just today I warned someone to make sure never to lose it. I suggested securing it nearby with a cable. I'd like to know as well where to get one if needed. Jason On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 8:57 PM Dave Tedeyan wrote: > Hi all, > Does anyone have a source to get a replacement key for SMA's rapid > shutdown controller. I have someone who lost their key at some point, and > then for some reason initiated rapid shutdown. I have a spare to unlock it, > but I am wondering if it is possible to get one without getting the whole > controller. > Thanks! > -Dave > > -- > [image: Logo] > Dave Tedeyan, P.E. > Owner | Sungineer Solar > p: he | him | his > a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 > w: www.sungineersolar.com > c: (607) 288-2898 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From autonomousenergies at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 22:23:28 2021 From: autonomousenergies at gmail.com (AE Solar) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 22:23:28 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Key for SMA rapid shutdown controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought someone at SMA told me once that it was a generic key made by Eaton(?) and could be picked up from any distributor? Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 9:02 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > Just today I warned someone to make sure never to lose it. I suggested > securing it nearby with a cable. I'd like to know as well where to get one > if needed. > > Jason > > > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 8:57 PM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> Does anyone have a source to get a replacement key for SMA's rapid >> shutdown controller. I have someone who lost their key at some point, and >> then for some reason initiated rapid shutdown. I have a spare to unlock it, >> but I am wondering if it is possible to get one without getting the whole >> controller. >> Thanks! >> -Dave >> >> -- >> [image: Logo] >> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >> Owner | Sungineer Solar >> p: he | him | his >> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >> w: www.sungineersolar.com >> c: (607) 288-2898 >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 14 23:10:35 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 21:10:35 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Key for SMA rapid shutdown controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it's an Eaton Cat. No. M22-ES-MS1 On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 8:23 PM AE Solar wrote: > I thought someone at SMA told me once that it was a generic key made by > Eaton(?) and could be picked up from any distributor? > > Adam Katzman > Autonomous Energies > PO Box 1245 > Kingston, NY 12402 > www.autonomousenergies.com > (518) 567-1468 > > > > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 9:02 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > >> Just today I warned someone to make sure never to lose it. I suggested >> securing it nearby with a cable. I'd like to know as well where to get one >> if needed. >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 8:57 PM Dave Tedeyan >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> Does anyone have a source to get a replacement key for SMA's rapid >>> shutdown controller. I have someone who lost their key at some point, and >>> then for some reason initiated rapid shutdown. I have a spare to unlock it, >>> but I am wondering if it is possible to get one without getting the whole >>> controller. >>> Thanks! >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> [image: Logo] >>> Dave Tedeyan, P.E. >>> Owner | Sungineer Solar >>> p: he | him | his >>> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 >>> w: www.sungineersolar.com >>> c: (607) 288-2898 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Dec 15 09:06:58 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:06:58 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 and FNDC Message-ID: Wrenches, Does anyone have some recommend settings for the OB Battery monitor when using Lithiums We installed a 600 hr pack at 48v the MATE has been lately throwing a LOW SOC event. I have reached out to the battery manufacturer, and used their recommended settings but they suggest to basically ignore the issue since the battery monitor was designed for lead acid batteries. The site will have optics RE, so I don’t really want to just do away with the FNDC. I can’t imagine I’m the only one seeing this issue. Please contact me off list if you have some insight that needs a phone call. Happy holidays Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sgsrenewables at gmail.com Wed Dec 15 10:33:06 2021 From: sgsrenewables at gmail.com (Luke Christy) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 08:33:06 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 and FNDC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, I have a lot of LiFePo4 battery systems out there on the Outback platform and we ran into that issue also. The main issue with the Low SOC alarm is the blinking red light that tends to unsettle clients. The trigger for the Low SOC alert is adjustable though, and it’s pretty easy to change the setting so that the Low SOC trigger is [more] appropriate for the LiFePo4 battery. Look for" Flexnet Advanced Control" in the “MATE3S” Settings menu. You can change both the Low SOC trigger and the Critically Low SOC trigger values. Note that for some reason you cannot access these particular settings remotely through OpticsRE. I really like having the FNDC data available through Optics RE so that I can check up on things remotely, and I’ve found that the energy tracking seems reasonably accurate given that it was designed for lead acid technologies. Feel free to reach out off list if I can be of more assistance. -Luke Christy Renewable energy consultant. NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 SGSRenewables at Gmail.com 719.588.3044 > On Dec 15, 2021, at 7:06 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > > Wrenches, > Does anyone have some recommend settings for the OB Battery monitor when using Lithiums > We installed a 600 hr pack at 48v > the MATE has been lately throwing a LOW SOC event. > I have reached out to the battery manufacturer, and used their recommended settings but they suggest to basically ignore the issue since the battery monitor was designed for lead acid batteries. > The site will have optics RE, so I don’t really want to just do away with the FNDC. > I can’t imagine I’m the only one seeing this issue. Please contact me off list if you have some insight that needs a phone call. Happy holidays > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Wed Dec 15 10:42:22 2021 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 15:42:22 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Key for SMA rapid shutdown controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac is correct with the part number below. Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy website Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English and Spanish [cid:image001.jpg at 01D7F18F.AB82C390] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D7F18F.AB82C390] [cid:image004.jpg at 01D7F18F.AB82C390] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 9:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Key for SMA rapid shutdown controller I think it's an Eaton Cat. No. M22-ES-MS1 On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 8:23 PM AE Solar > wrote: I thought someone at SMA told me once that it was a generic key made by Eaton(?) and could be picked up from any distributor? Adam Katzman Autonomous Energies PO Box 1245 Kingston, NY 12402 www.autonomousenergies.com (518) 567-1468 On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 9:02 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: Just today I warned someone to make sure never to lose it. I suggested securing it nearby with a cable. I'd like to know as well where to get one if needed. Jason On Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 8:57 PM Dave Tedeyan > wrote: Hi all, Does anyone have a source to get a replacement key for SMA's rapid shutdown controller. I have someone who lost their key at some point, and then for some reason initiated rapid shutdown. I have a spare to unlock it, but I am wondering if it is possible to get one without getting the whole controller. Thanks! -Dave -- [Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23174 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From lones.tuss at enersys.com Wed Dec 15 11:41:51 2021 From: lones.tuss at enersys.com (Tuss, Lones) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 16:41:51 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 and FNDC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeremy Luke is correct that setting is adjustable, unfortunately it must be done on the Mate3S not through Optics. Here is the path to get that done. Lock 141-Settings Scroll down to Mate3S select it Scroll down to Flexnet DC Advanced Controls select it Then adjust Low SoC and Critical Soc You did not mention which batteries you were using but it is common with the lithium batteries to set the Low Soc to 20% Critical Soc to 10% Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 6:07 AM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 and FNDC CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Wrenches, Does anyone have some recommend settings for the OB Battery monitor when using Lithiums We installed a 600 hr pack at 48v the MATE has been lately throwing a LOW SOC event. I have reached out to the battery manufacturer, and used their recommended settings but they suggest to basically ignore the issue since the battery monitor was designed for lead acid batteries. The site will have optics RE, so I don’t really want to just do away with the FNDC. I can’t imagine I’m the only one seeing this issue. Please contact me off list if you have some insight that needs a phone call. Happy holidays Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. This email and any attachments may contain confidential information that is intended only for the recipient(s). If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its affiliates. This email does not constitute an agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means and does not create any legally binding contract or enforceable obligation in the absence of a fully signed written contract. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for viruses. The company accepts no liability for any loss or damage caused by software viruses. If you are the intended recipient and you do not wish to receive similar email(s) from us in the future then please notify the sender. Please consider the environment before printing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 15 10:22:12 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 08:22:12 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 and FNDC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64D3D99D-5731-4E0F-8CB6-BE5FBDEBD6C1@gmail.com> Hi Jeremy What lithium’s do you have? And what are your settings on the fndc? Jay > On Dec 15, 2021, at 7:07 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > >  > Wrenches, > Does anyone have some recommend settings for the OB Battery monitor when using Lithiums > We installed a 600 hr pack at 48v > the MATE has been lately throwing a LOW SOC event. > I have reached out to the battery manufacturer, and used their recommended settings but they suggest to basically ignore the issue since the battery monitor was designed for lead acid batteries. > The site will have optics RE, so I don’t really want to just do away with the FNDC. > I can’t imagine I’m the only one seeing this issue. Please contact me off list if you have some insight that needs a phone call. Happy holidays > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Wed Dec 15 23:52:59 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 04:52:59 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] LiFePo4 and FNDC In-Reply-To: <64D3D99D-5731-4E0F-8CB6-BE5FBDEBD6C1@gmail.com> References: <64D3D99D-5731-4E0F-8CB6-BE5FBDEBD6C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Iron Edison RE Volt 10.2 Battery Amp Hours - 600 Charged Voltage - 56 VDC Charge return amps- 30A Time- 6 minutes Charge Factor- 99% Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. On Dec 15, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Jay wrote:  Hi Jeremy What lithium’s do you have? And what are your settings on the fndc? Jay On Dec 15, 2021, at 7:07 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote:  Wrenches, Does anyone have some recommend settings for the OB Battery monitor when using Lithiums We installed a 600 hr pack at 48v the MATE has been lately throwing a LOW SOC event. I have reached out to the battery manufacturer, and used their recommended settings but they suggest to basically ignore the issue since the battery monitor was designed for lead acid batteries. The site will have optics RE, so I don’t really want to just do away with the FNDC. I can’t imagine I’m the only one seeing this issue. Please contact me off list if you have some insight that needs a phone call. Happy holidays Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com Thu Dec 16 18:51:11 2021 From: Howie.Michaelson at gmail.com (Howie Michaelson) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:51:11 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Kilovault Message-ID: Hi all, Anyone have any experience with the Kilovault HLX+ 12 volt batteries? How does the paralleling and series configuration work? Thanks, Howie *Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher* *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™* *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 09:07:27 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 07:07:27 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have spent this last week clearing arc faults on SMA inverters. There never appears to be a true arc event, just the occasional event and then lockout. What is the best approach to fix these tripping inverter issues? Is there a way to decrease the sensitivity? Any procedures that are effective at keeping this from happening? All connections are good and tight and triple checked. Anyway to remotely clear these faults? Thanks -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 15:21:06 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 12:21:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Over the years every SMA arcfault has been real, l am also not saying hazard, well, AC, welding, all creat Arc noise in the system and it can be from a normal contactor arc. I have also seen AM arc faults caused by defective or knock off MC connectors, in adequately stripped wires that result in the screw down connection on the insulator causing arc in the connector. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspestor On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:07 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Wrenches, > > I have spent this last week clearing arc faults on SMA inverters. There > never appears to be a true arc event, just the occasional event and then > lockout. > > What is the best approach to fix these tripping inverter issues? Is there > a way to decrease the sensitivity? Any procedures that are effective at > keeping this from happening? All connections are good and tight and triple > checked. Anyway to remotely clear these faults? > > Thanks > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Sat Dec 18 16:15:32 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 16:15:32 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I haven't seen many, but every one I've seen has been a melted MC4 connector. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 3:21 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Over the years every SMA arcfault has been real, l am also not saying > hazard, well, AC, welding, all creat Arc noise in the system and it can be > from a normal contactor arc. I have also seen AM arc faults caused by > defective or knock off MC connectors, in adequately stripped wires that > result in the screw down connection on the insulator causing arc in the > connector. > Jerry > NABCEP PV Inspestor > > On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:07 AM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I have spent this last week clearing arc faults on SMA inverters. There >> never appears to be a true arc event, just the occasional event and then >> lockout. >> >> What is the best approach to fix these tripping inverter issues? Is >> there a way to decrease the sensitivity? Any procedures that are effective >> at keeping this from happening? All connections are good and tight and >> triple checked. Anyway to remotely clear these faults? >> >> Thanks >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Sat Dec 18 20:27:55 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 20:27:55 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mac, Might I ask what modules these are connected to? There is some history here with Sunpower modules (and possibly other high power, high voltage modules). In these cases the issue is the module. If that's the case I can provide some more detail about it. As for remote resetting, it is actually possible. Although it takes some networking knowhow that I am not savvy enough to tell you the specifics. I believe it is possible to remotely access the inverter through some kind of port forwarding. So you can always reset the inverter by physically being there and doing the right power cycle and taps (depending on the inverter model), but you can also reset the arc fault through the computer (or smart phone) inverter interface. There is also one other thing you can try if there is no shading. At least with the Sunpower module issue, the inverter would always trip when it does an MPPT sweep. With the optitrac global peak that the sma inverters use, they do a full MPPT sweep every 6 to 30 minutes. You can turn this off, and sometimes that will stop the arc faults. But that also means that partial shading can take out a whole string, rather than just a modules worth of voltage. Cheers, Dave On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > I haven't seen many, but every one I've seen has been a melted MC4 > connector. > > Jason Szumlanski > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 3:21 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Over the years every SMA arcfault has been real, l am also not saying >> hazard, well, AC, welding, all creat Arc noise in the system and it can be >> from a normal contactor arc. I have also seen AM arc faults caused by >> defective or knock off MC connectors, in adequately stripped wires that >> result in the screw down connection on the insulator causing arc in the >> connector. >> Jerry >> NABCEP PV Inspestor >> >> On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:07 AM Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> I have spent this last week clearing arc faults on SMA inverters. There >>> never appears to be a true arc event, just the occasional event and then >>> lockout. >>> >>> What is the best approach to fix these tripping inverter issues? Is >>> there a way to decrease the sensitivity? Any procedures that are effective >>> at keeping this from happening? All connections are good and tight and >>> triple checked. Anyway to remotely clear these faults? >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 19:34:49 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:34:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sma wifi set up videos Message-ID: <71F07DE2-AF5E-4970-B14F-CB68B5A942F0@gmail.com> Does anyone have a go to web site/videos for sma 7.7 wifi set up? I didn’t find anything on the sma site but could have missed it. I have a friend trying to set his up and he’s struggling a bit. I figure there is someone who’s got a good set of videos out there Thanks Jay Peltz power. From sam at onsiteenergyinc.com Thu Dec 23 09:41:38 2021 From: sam at onsiteenergyinc.com (Sam Haraldson) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:41:38 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sma wifi set up videos In-Reply-To: <71F07DE2-AF5E-4970-B14F-CB68B5A942F0@gmail.com> References: <71F07DE2-AF5E-4970-B14F-CB68B5A942F0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay, SMA has a lot of good videos on their YouTube channel. Here is what you're looking for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XFqFOnVv3U If this is a new installation then the user/installer passwords will be requested to be set up during this initial commissioning. However, if those passwords are already set and your friend doesn't know what they are they'll have to call the SMA Service Line and request the PUK to use as the password. They'll need to have the Connection Unit serial number handy. Cheers, Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager | o. (406) 551-6135 On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 7:48 PM Jay wrote: > Does anyone have a go to web site/videos for sma 7.7 wifi set up? > I didn’t find anything on the sma site but could have missed it. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Dec 23 10:14:08 2021 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 15:14:08 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sma wifi set up videos In-Reply-To: References: <71F07DE2-AF5E-4970-B14F-CB68B5A942F0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sam - Thanks for the great reply. That video, while showing a non-US product, has all the detail (including the 192.168.12.3 IP address) you should need. Based on FW version, you may no longer have the SMA12345 temporary password for the Sunny Boy self hosted WiFi anymore. The WPA2-PSK code on the Connection Unit label is the final password. As mentioned, you may also be asked to set both the User and Installer group passwords on first login, but continue through commissioning using Installer group. For the Sunny Boy US-41, the commissioning TechTIp is here: https://youtu.be/19uOZ4ls-pc (there is an installation video, and one for accessing the GUI too) SMA's TechTip library has been relocated to the global Solar Academy page. The main page is here: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html, and if you scroll down a ways, you will see all the Tech Tip channels. For the US there is an English and Spanish language channel. English (note the underscore at end): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoiOll7F4i-_Wc4JVN8ga2x2vxc8xews_ Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoiOll7F4i-_5JPpsmdrbcidCX52BkSGF Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Sam Haraldson Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 7:42 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sma wifi set up videos Jay, SMA has a lot of good videos on their YouTube channel. Here is what you're looking for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XFqFOnVv3U If this is a new installation then the user/installer passwords will be requested to be set up during this initial commissioning. However, if those passwords are already set and your friend doesn't know what they are they'll have to call the SMA Service Line and request the PUK to use as the password. They'll need to have the Connection Unit serial number handy. Cheers, Sam Haraldson Installation & Service Manager [https://esr-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/images/21230/108433/default/images/218965d24e62dbfc42.jpeg?override=1564075269] | o. (406) 551-6135 [https://esr-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/images/21230/108433/icons/5d39e8855c857.png] [https://esr-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/images/21230/108433/icons/5d39e8856b4e0.png] [https://esr-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/images/21230/108433/icons/5d39e88595af2.png] [https://esr-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/images/21230/108433/icons/5d39e885a04f2.png] [https://esr-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/images/21230/108433/default/images/218965d38dc2e92d70.jpeg?override=1564075295] On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 7:48 PM Jay > wrote: Does anyone have a go to web site/videos for sma 7.7 wifi set up? I didn't find anything on the sma site but could have missed it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparadeo.chris at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 10:18:52 2021 From: sparadeo.chris at gmail.com (Chris Sparadeo) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:18:52 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storz Power Batteries Message-ID: Hi all, Just wondering if anyone out there has had experience with Storz Power batteries? Specifically in applications with closed loop comms and Sol Ark. Kindly, Chris -- Chris Sparadeo C_802-369-4458 H_802-728-3059 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Wed Dec 22 23:47:30 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 20:47:30 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client data Message-ID: <66CAD6BF-F89A-4C36-AFBB-4AFFFC302AEB@millersolar.com> Friends: I am about to receive my first set of Blue Planet lithium batteries. The manufacturer requested my client’s WiFi credentials for monitoring purposes. I am not comfortable divulging that information. If Blue Planet gets hacked, the client’s name, address and WiFi log in details will be compromised. Do any of you share this concern? How have you dealt with this request? Thanks in advance. William Miller www.millersolar.com From william at millersolar.com Wed Dec 22 23:39:59 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 20:39:59 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sma wifi set up videos In-Reply-To: <71F07DE2-AF5E-4970-B14F-CB68B5A942F0@gmail.com> References: <71F07DE2-AF5E-4970-B14F-CB68B5A942F0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <496BB110-85D1-45A3-B108-E9D55A74941E@millersolar.com> Jay: I often struggle to remember all of the steps required to set up, connect to or configure all of the various equipment I have to deal with, so I am sympathetic. Typically just enough time elapses after a given procedure that I completely forget what I did. What I do is keep notes in my Evernote app and update those notes every time I revisit the procedure. Usually I am navigating the SMA setup in order to configure a replacement inverter to not require a neutral. This is because I am replacing a Sunny Boy installed back when a neutral was not required and we did not run one. The point I am making is I can share my notes on logging into a 41 series SMA and setting the no-neutral configuration. Those notes are below. They may be relevant to what your friend needs to do. For 41 series: Find SMAxxxx WiFi on your device. Use password on back of manual or side of connection box to log in to WiFi. You will be directed to another sign in. Think password for that is also on manual or you will create one. Every time you connect via WiFi you will eventual be directed to interface. It’s slow. Instead easiest access is via 192.168.12.3. Log on as installer. If no neutral: set country standard to: UL1741/2016/240. Must completely power cycle for settings to take. William Miller www.millersolar.com > On Dec 22, 2021, at 6:48 PM, Jay wrote: > > Does anyone have a go to web site/videos for sma 7.7 wifi set up? > I didn’t find anything on the sma site but could have missed it. > > I have a friend trying to set his up and he’s struggling a bit. I figure there is someone who’s got a good set of videos out there > > Thanks > > Jay > > Peltz power. > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 13:23:11 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:23:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client data In-Reply-To: <66CAD6BF-F89A-4C36-AFBB-4AFFFC302AEB@millersolar.com> References: <66CAD6BF-F89A-4C36-AFBB-4AFFFC302AEB@millersolar.com> Message-ID: I use blue planet all the time, can't say l have ever had to to that, something new, what inverter are you using Jerry On Thu, Dec 23, 2021, 9:08 AM William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I am about to receive my first set of Blue Planet lithium batteries. The > manufacturer requested my client’s WiFi credentials for monitoring > purposes. I am not comfortable divulging that information. If Blue Planet > gets hacked, the client’s name, address and WiFi log in details will be > compromised. > > Do any of you share this concern? How have you dealt with this request? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Dec 23 13:54:31 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:54:31 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client data In-Reply-To: References: <66CAD6BF-F89A-4C36-AFBB-4AFFFC302AEB@millersolar.com> Message-ID: I don't ever remember that either. Just tell your salesperson no. That's what I've done in the past when IMO BP is overstepping. On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 1:23 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > I use blue planet all the time, can't say l have ever had to to that, > something new, what inverter are you using > Jerry > > On Thu, Dec 23, 2021, 9:08 AM William Miller > wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> I am about to receive my first set of Blue Planet lithium batteries. The >> manufacturer requested my client’s WiFi credentials for monitoring >> purposes. I am not comfortable divulging that information. If Blue Planet >> gets hacked, the client’s name, address and WiFi log in details will be >> compromised. >> >> Do any of you share this concern? How have you dealt with this request? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From william at millersolar.com Thu Dec 23 13:31:06 2021 From: william at millersolar.com (William Miller) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:31:06 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client data In-Reply-To: References: <66CAD6BF-F89A-4C36-AFBB-4AFFFC302AEB@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Jerry: Radian. Here is what Blue Planet is telling me: We use the internet connection for remote support of your system, and the end user will have some really cool tools for monitoring their system through the online platform. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer *Sent:* Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:23 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client data I use blue planet all the time, can't say l have ever had to to that, something new, what inverter are you using Jerry On Thu, Dec 23, 2021, 9:08 AM William Miller wrote: Friends: I am about to receive my first set of Blue Planet lithium batteries. The manufacturer requested my client’s WiFi credentials for monitoring purposes. I am not comfortable divulging that information. If Blue Planet gets hacked, the client’s name, address and WiFi log in details will be compromised. Do any of you share this concern? How have you dealt with this request? Thanks in advance. William Miller www.millersolar.com _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Dec 23 14:06:34 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 11:06:34 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storz Power Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e8d9dac-c064-1c16-d963-3716144e9461@villagepowerdesign.com> Hi Chris, My only experience thus far is ordering and getting tech support on a biggish system's worth.  3 Sol Arks on 16Storzpower 5.12 KW batteries. In working with Everett and his staff I'm very impressed.  They are the first to get UL 9540 on a server rack battery with the Sol-Ark.  They flash the Sol-Ark to synchronize with their batts.    I really like server rack batteries (StorzPower, Signature Solar, Jakiper, etc.)  The 5 KWH increments are nice - easy to rack. Great price - quality on tear-downs and experience in the field is thus far great. Same pouch cells many of the big names are using  - proven BMSs. The only limitation at this point is comm limitations.  Everett says Sol-Arks are presently limited to reading 7 of those type batteries per inverter.  The batteries have a 4 place dip switch arrangement for ID and thus limited to 16 IDs (14 or 15 in practice depending on the battery as the Inverter uses a channel). I'm solving that on one project I'm doing with Signature Solar EG4s (open loop on Sunny Islands) by simply having a dedicated laptop running the battery BMS software monitoring app on a PC.  That way I can see SOC of every battery (and voltage of every cell and do the setting feedback loop in my brain rather than closed loop - pretty easy to see what's going on that way by tracking both what ennexOS is telling me about the Sunny Islands and the BMS's are saying.  But that's for open loop  in the Bahamas. In CA or anyplace else that cares about UL 9540 (which will soon be everywhere perhaps) the integrated closed loop is the way to go so loving that Storz Power stepped up to offer that. I'll let you know once I get them installed and up and running. Best, Jeff ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Clearwater linkedin www.villagepowerdesign.com cell - 413-559-9763 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Chris Sparadeo > December 23, 2021 at 7:18 AM > Hi all, > > Just wondering if anyone out there has had experience with Storz Power > batteries? Specifically in applications with closed loop comms and Sol > Ark. > > Kindly, > > Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: VPDLogoMaster2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 93349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Dec 23 14:34:53 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 11:34:53 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Storz Power Batteries In-Reply-To: <4e8d9dac-c064-1c16-d963-3716144e9461@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <4e8d9dac-c064-1c16-d963-3716144e9461@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: Oh and I should have mentioned Humless - they have a CEC approved server rack battery that they are now integrating UL 9540 on their own re-branded Inverter.  Cheaper than Storz Power but the inverter is probably a gro-watt equivalent.   So I'm sticking with Storz Power now so I can utilize UL 9540 on Sol-Arks. > Jeff Clearwater > December 23, 2021 at 11:06 AM > Hi Chris, > > My only experience thus far is ordering and getting tech support on a > biggish system's worth.  3 Sol Arks on 16Storzpower 5.12 KW batteries. > > In working with Everett and his staff I'm very impressed.  They are > the first to get UL 9540 on a server rack battery with the Sol-Ark.  > They flash the Sol-Ark to synchronize with their batts.    I really > like server rack batteries (StorzPower, Signature Solar, Jakiper, > etc.)  The 5 KWH increments are nice - easy to rack. Great price - > quality on tear-downs and experience in the field is thus far great. > Same pouch cells many of the big names are using  - proven BMSs. > > The only limitation at this point is comm limitations.  Everett says > Sol-Arks are presently limited to reading 7 of those type batteries > per inverter.  The batteries have a 4 place dip switch arrangement for > ID and thus limited to 16 IDs (14 or 15 in practice depending on the > battery as the Inverter uses a channel). > > I'm solving that on one project I'm doing with Signature Solar EG4s > (open loop on Sunny Islands) by simply having a dedicated laptop > running the battery BMS software monitoring app on a PC.  That way I > can see SOC of every battery (and voltage of every cell and do the > setting feedback loop in my brain rather than closed loop - pretty > easy to see what's going on that way by tracking both what ennexOS is > telling me about the Sunny Islands and the BMS's are saying.  But > that's for open loop  in the Bahamas. > > In CA or anyplace else that cares about UL 9540 (which will soon be > everywhere perhaps) the integrated closed loop is the way to go so > loving that Storz Power stepped up to offer that. > > I'll let you know once I get them installed and up and running. > > Best, > > Jeff > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Chris Sparadeo > December 23, 2021 at 7:18 AM > Hi all, > > Just wondering if anyone out there has had experience with Storz Power > batteries? Specifically in applications with closed loop comms and Sol > Ark. > > Kindly, > > Chris > -- > Chris Sparadeo > > > C_802-369-4458 > H_802-728-3059 > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Thu Dec 23 14:55:02 2021 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 19:55:02 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mac & Wrenches - SMA has endeavored to continuously improve the reliability and accuracy of our AFCI detection, and it is heartening to see the comments in this thread. Recent FW update provides the option of enabling automatic restarting from AFCI in the CORE1 US-41 product. The Sunny Boy US-41 line with most recent FW will have automatic restarts enabled. The source of multiple events should be investigated thoroughly. Registering SMA systems to the ennexOS Sunny Portal allows for remote parameter updates as well as automatic FW updates. In addition, event reports can be configured so those who should know are notified if AFCI events are logged. Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy website Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English and Spanish [cid:image001.jpg at 01D7F7FB.16637DF0] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D7F7FB.16637DF0] [cid:image004.jpg at 01D7F7FB.16637DF0] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 6:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults Hi Mac, Might I ask what modules these are connected to? There is some history here with Sunpower modules (and possibly other high power, high voltage modules). In these cases the issue is the module. If that's the case I can provide some more detail about it. As for remote resetting, it is actually possible. Although it takes some networking knowhow that I am not savvy enough to tell you the specifics. I believe it is possible to remotely access the inverter through some kind of port forwarding. So you can always reset the inverter by physically being there and doing the right power cycle and taps (depending on the inverter model), but you can also reset the arc fault through the computer (or smart phone) inverter interface. There is also one other thing you can try if there is no shading. At least with the Sunpower module issue, the inverter would always trip when it does an MPPT sweep. With the optitrac global peak that the sma inverters use, they do a full MPPT sweep every 6 to 30 minutes. You can turn this off, and sometimes that will stop the arc faults. But that also means that partial shading can take out a whole string, rather than just a modules worth of voltage. Cheers, Dave On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I haven't seen many, but every one I've seen has been a melted MC4 connector. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 3:21 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: Over the years every SMA arcfault has been real, l am also not saying hazard, well, AC, welding, all creat Arc noise in the system and it can be from a normal contactor arc. I have also seen AM arc faults caused by defective or knock off MC connectors, in adequately stripped wires that result in the screw down connection on the insulator causing arc in the connector. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspestor On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 6:07 AM Mac Lewis > wrote: Hi Wrenches, I have spent this last week clearing arc faults on SMA inverters. There never appears to be a true arc event, just the occasional event and then lockout. What is the best approach to fix these tripping inverter issues? Is there a way to decrease the sensitivity? Any procedures that are effective at keeping this from happening? All connections are good and tight and triple checked. Anyway to remotely clear these faults? Thanks -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23174 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From danbob88 at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 15:20:41 2021 From: danbob88 at gmail.com (Dan Fink) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:20:41 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client data In-Reply-To: References: <66CAD6BF-F89A-4C36-AFBB-4AFFFC302AEB@millersolar.com> Message-ID: William: That doesn't make any sense to me either. All they should need to set up remote monitoring is the MAC (Media Access Control) address of the Blue Planet network interface hardware (NIC), which is specific to the exact BP BMU hardware box serial # you have. Then usually just have the NIC (not just Blue Planet, anything--OpticsRE, a wifi printer, Alexa etc.) get its own *local* IP address from your wifi router dynamically with DHCP, though sometimes assigning a static local IP (192.168.x.x) prevents weird traffic conflicts. What exact Client wifi login credentials did BP ask you for? I don't see how those would do them any good for BMU monitoring unless they are parked outside your house. Perhaps their tech support used confusing wording in their request? That would not be a surprise, they speak in an entirely new language and vocabulary to me, in which I am NOT fluent, I only know enough to get by getting devices to communicate online, and maybe ask where the bathroom is.... Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d anbob88 at gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 11:57 AM William Miller wrote: > Jerry: > > > > Radian. > > > > Here is what Blue Planet is telling me: > > > > We use the internet connection for remote support of your system, and the > end user will have some really cool tools for monitoring their system > through the online platform. > > > > William > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kirkh at vermont.solar Thu Dec 23 15:31:14 2021 From: kirkh at vermont.solar (Kirk Herander) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 15:31:14 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client data In-Reply-To: References: <66CAD6BF-F89A-4C36-AFBB-4AFFFC302AEB@millersolar.com> Message-ID: I could be wrong, my understanding is they can log into any site they want without this info. It perhaps makes it more streamlined. I just commissioned a LV HI w/Namaka today with Jody from tech support and was not asked for that info. He suggested I create a static IP address in the customer's router for streamlined access, but I can't do that anyway (its owned by the internet provider). No problem. I don't know what cool things could be missing, but I got on the platform quickly, and it has all the info I need. FYI the system is set up with an Outback Skybox. Unfortunately the Namaka and Skybox cannot sync comms like Namaka and others (scheider, SMA etc). So stuff like SOC will never be in sync between the Stellar (namaka) platform and Optics RE....might be able to do it with an external Mate3s, but the Skybox "mate" is integrated with no provision to do so. On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 1:57 PM William Miller wrote: > Jerry: > > > > Radian. > > > > Here is what Blue Planet is telling me: > > > > We use the internet connection for remote support of your system, and the > end user will have some really cool tools for monitoring their system > through the online platform. > > > > William > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer > *Sent:* Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:23 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client > data > > > > I use blue planet all the time, can't say l have ever had to to that, > something new, what inverter are you using > > Jerry > > > > On Thu, Dec 23, 2021, 9:08 AM William Miller > wrote: > > Friends: > > I am about to receive my first set of Blue Planet lithium batteries. The > manufacturer requested my client’s WiFi credentials for monitoring > purposes. I am not comfortable divulging that information. If Blue Planet > gets hacked, the client’s name, address and WiFi log in details will be > compromised. > > Do any of you share this concern? How have you dealt with this request? > > Thanks in advance. > > William Miller > www.millersolar.com > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* *Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!* *www.vermont.solar* dba Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 16:41:02 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:41:02 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential client data In-Reply-To: References: <66CAD6BF-F89A-4C36-AFBB-4AFFFC302AEB@millersolar.com> Message-ID: Hey guys, I think they are asking for that just so it doesn't need to be configured on site by the solar technician. You can just walk up and apply power and it will find the network for you. You can hardwire the Namaka unit in any case without divulging the Wifi Info. My preference is to allow me to do it onsite, because I'm not organized enough to ask the client that far in advance. Thanks On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 1:31 PM Kirk Herander wrote: > I could be wrong, my understanding is they can log into any site they want > without this info. It perhaps makes it more streamlined. I just > commissioned a LV HI w/Namaka today with Jody from tech support and was not > asked for that info. He suggested I create a static IP address in the > customer's router for streamlined access, but I can't do that anyway (its > owned by the internet provider). No problem. > I don't know what cool things could be missing, but I got on the platform > quickly, and it has all the info I need. > > FYI the system is set up with an Outback Skybox. Unfortunately the Namaka > and Skybox cannot sync comms like Namaka and others (scheider, SMA etc). So > stuff like SOC will never be in sync between the Stellar (namaka) platform > and Optics RE....might be able to do it with an external Mate3s, but the > Skybox "mate" is integrated with no provision to do so. > > On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 1:57 PM William Miller > wrote: > >> Jerry: >> >> >> >> Radian. >> >> >> >> Here is what Blue Planet is telling me: >> >> >> >> We use the internet connection for remote support of your system, and the >> end user will have some really cool tools for monitoring their system >> through the online platform. >> >> >> >> William >> >> >> >> Miller Solar >> >> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 >> >> 805-438-5600 >> >> www.millersolar.com >> >> CA Lic. 773985 >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer >> *Sent:* Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:23 AM >> *To:* RE-wrenches >> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue planet energy wants confidential >> client data >> >> >> >> I use blue planet all the time, can't say l have ever had to to that, >> something new, what inverter are you using >> >> Jerry >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 23, 2021, 9:08 AM William Miller >> wrote: >> >> Friends: >> >> I am about to receive my first set of Blue Planet lithium batteries. The >> manufacturer requested my client’s WiFi credentials for monitoring >> purposes. I am not comfortable divulging that information. If Blue Planet >> gets hacked, the client’s name, address and WiFi log in details will be >> compromised. >> >> Do any of you share this concern? How have you dealt with this request? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> William Miller >> www.millersolar.com >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> > > -- > > *Kirk Herander / **kirkh at vermont.solar * > > *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC* > > *Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!* > > *www.vermont.solar* > > > dba Vermont Solar Engineering > > 802.863.1202 > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frenergy at psln.com Fri Dec 24 00:56:11 2021 From: frenergy at psln.com (frenergy) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:56:11 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a6cefd4-d9a0-b97f-fe2d-449578d0cf69@psln.com> Mike,             If I understand SMA's AFCI detection system right, it detects arc on the AC and DC side of the inverter. If correct, and from my "AFCI reset" experiences, it seems to also trip with some area lighting strikes.  It would certainly be helpful in finding the issue to know at least if it was a DC side or AC side event. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 12/23/2021 11:55 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > Mac & Wrenches - > > SMA has endeavored to continuously improve the reliability and > accuracy of our AFCI detection, and it is heartening to see the > comments in this thread.  Recent FW update provides the option of > enabling automatic restarting from AFCI in the CORE1 US-41 product.  > The Sunny Boy US-41 line with most recent FW will have automatic > restarts enabled. The source of multiple events should be investigated > thoroughly. Registering SMA systems to the ennexOS Sunny Portal allows > for remote parameter updates as well as automatic FW updates. In > addition, event reports can be configured so those who should know are > notified if AFCI events are logged. > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > Michael Mahon > Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > *SMA America* > > 3925 Atherton Rd > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > Mobile:   +1 916 918 9412_ > www.SMA-America.com > _ > > Solar Academy website > > > Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English > > and Spanish > > > > Linkedin Logo > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email > (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you > are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately > and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and > any attachments thereto. Thank you. > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan > *Sent:* Saturday, December 18, 2021 6:28 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults > > Hi Mac, > > Might I ask what modules these are connected to? There is some history > here with Sunpower modules (and possibly other high power, high > voltage modules). In these cases the issue is the module. If that's > the case I can provide some more detail about it. > > As for remote resetting, it is actually possible. Although it takes > some networking knowhow that I am not savvy enough to tell you the > specifics. I believe it is possible to remotely access the inverter > through some kind of port forwarding. So you can always reset the > inverter by physically being there and doing the right power cycle and > taps (depending on the inverter model), but you can also reset the arc > fault through the computer (or smart phone) inverter interface. > > There is also one other thing you can try if there is no shading. At > least with the Sunpower module issue, the inverter would always trip > when it does an MPPT sweep. With the optitrac global peak that the sma > inverters use, they do a full MPPT sweep every 6 to 30 minutes. You > can turn this off, and sometimes that will stop the arc faults. But > that also means that partial shading can take out a whole string, > rather than just a modules worth of voltage. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: > > I haven't seen many, but every one I've seen has been a melted MC4 > connector. > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 3:21 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Over the years every SMA arcfault has been real, l am also not > saying hazard, well, AC, welding, all creat Arc noise in the > system and it can be from a normal contactor arc. I have also > seen AM arc faults caused by defective or knock off MC > connectors, in adequately stripped wires that result in the > screw down connection on the insulator causing arc in the > connector. > > Jerry > > NABCEP PV Inspestor > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23174 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com Fri Dec 24 11:57:32 2021 From: Michael.Mahon at sma-america.com (Harry Mahon) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:57:32 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults In-Reply-To: <1a6cefd4-d9a0-b97f-fe2d-449578d0cf69@psln.com> References: <1a6cefd4-d9a0-b97f-fe2d-449578d0cf69@psln.com> Message-ID: Bill - the AFCI circuitry is only looking at the DC inputs from the array. While certainly possible for external strong EMF source to "impart" a signal on the DC conductors that triggers the AFCI circuitry, hopefully this is a low probability occurrence. Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy website Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English and Spanish [cid:image001.jpg at 01D7F8AC.A82F1440] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D7F8AC.A82F1440] [cid:image004.jpg at 01D7F8AC.A82F1440] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of frenergy Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:56 PM To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults Mike, If I understand SMA's AFCI detection system right, it detects arc on the AC and DC side of the inverter. If correct, and from my "AFCI reset" experiences, it seems to also trip with some area lighting strikes. It would certainly be helpful in finding the issue to know at least if it was a DC side or AC side event. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Bill Battagin, Owner 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 CA Lic 874049 www.frenergy.net On 12/23/2021 11:55 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: Mac & Wrenches - SMA has endeavored to continuously improve the reliability and accuracy of our AFCI detection, and it is heartening to see the comments in this thread. Recent FW update provides the option of enabling automatic restarting from AFCI in the CORE1 US-41 product. The Sunny Boy US-41 line with most recent FW will have automatic restarts enabled. The source of multiple events should be investigated thoroughly. Registering SMA systems to the ennexOS Sunny Portal allows for remote parameter updates as well as automatic FW updates. In addition, event reports can be configured so those who should know are notified if AFCI events are logged. Best regards - Mike Michael Mahon Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy SMA America 3925 Atherton Rd Rocklin, CA 95765 Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 www.SMA-America.com Solar Academy website Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English and Spanish [cid:image001.jpg at 01D7F8AC.A82F1440] [Linkedin Logo] [cid:image003.jpg at 01D7F8AC.A82F1440] [cid:image004.jpg at 01D7F8AC.A82F1440] This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. Thank you. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Dave Tedeyan Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 6:28 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults Hi Mac, Might I ask what modules these are connected to? There is some history here with Sunpower modules (and possibly other high power, high voltage modules). In these cases the issue is the module. If that's the case I can provide some more detail about it. As for remote resetting, it is actually possible. Although it takes some networking knowhow that I am not savvy enough to tell you the specifics. I believe it is possible to remotely access the inverter through some kind of port forwarding. So you can always reset the inverter by physically being there and doing the right power cycle and taps (depending on the inverter model), but you can also reset the arc fault through the computer (or smart phone) inverter interface. There is also one other thing you can try if there is no shading. At least with the Sunpower module issue, the inverter would always trip when it does an MPPT sweep. With the optitrac global peak that the sma inverters use, they do a full MPPT sweep every 6 to 30 minutes. You can turn this off, and sometimes that will stop the arc faults. But that also means that partial shading can take out a whole string, rather than just a modules worth of voltage. Cheers, Dave On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski > wrote: I haven't seen many, but every one I've seen has been a melted MC4 connector. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 3:21 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: Over the years every SMA arcfault has been real, l am also not saying hazard, well, AC, welding, all creat Arc noise in the system and it can be from a normal contactor arc. I have also seen AM arc faults caused by defective or knock off MC connectors, in adequately stripped wires that result in the screw down connection on the insulator causing arc in the connector. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspestor [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free. www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23174 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From dave at sungineersolar.com Fri Dec 24 14:31:45 2021 From: dave at sungineersolar.com (Dave Tedeyan) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:31:45 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults In-Reply-To: References: <1a6cefd4-d9a0-b97f-fe2d-449578d0cf69@psln.com> Message-ID: Mike, So if I understand you correctly, the newer SB inverters no longer need a manual restart when an arc fault is detected? There is one system where I've seen some arc fault messages, but I assumed it was not a real fault, since the inverter does not shut off. Also, this is only piece of data and is from circa 2016, but the one time I have seen an arc fault actually due to the field wiring in a system, it was a loose connector going into one of the AC terminals on a TL-22 inverter. Cheers, Dave On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 11:57 AM Harry Mahon wrote: > Bill – the AFCI circuitry is only looking at the DC inputs from the > array. While certainly possible for external strong EMF source to “impart” > a signal on the DC conductors that triggers the AFCI circuitry, hopefully > this is a low probability occurrence. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > > > Michael Mahon > Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > *SMA America* > > 3925 Atherton Rd > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > * www.SMA-America.com > * > > Solar Academy website > > > Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English > > and Spanish > > > > > [image: Linkedin Logo] > > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *frenergy > *Sent:* Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:56 PM > *To:* re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults > > > > Mike, > > If I understand SMA's AFCI detection system right, it detects > arc on the AC and DC side of the inverter. If correct, and from my "AFCI > reset" experiences, it seems to also trip with some area lighting strikes. > It would certainly be helpful in finding the issue to know at least if it > was a DC side or AC side event. > > Bill > > Feather River Solar Electric > > Bill Battagin, Owner > > 4291 Nelson St. > > Taylorsville, CA 95983 > > 530.284.7849 > > CA Lic 874049 > > www.frenergy.net > > On 12/23/2021 11:55 AM, Harry Mahon wrote: > > Mac & Wrenches - > > SMA has endeavored to continuously improve the reliability and accuracy of > our AFCI detection, and it is heartening to see the comments in this > thread. Recent FW update provides the option of enabling automatic > restarting from AFCI in the CORE1 US-41 product. The Sunny Boy US-41 line > with most recent FW will have automatic restarts enabled. The source of > multiple events should be investigated thoroughly. Registering SMA systems > to the ennexOS Sunny Portal allows for remote parameter updates as well as > automatic FW updates. In addition, event reports can be configured so those > who should know are notified if AFCI events are logged. > > > > Best regards – > > Mike > > > Michael Mahon > Senior Technical Trainer, Solar Academy > *SMA America* > > 3925 Atherton Rd > > Rocklin, CA 95765 > Mobile: +1 916 918 9412 > * www.SMA-America.com > * > > Solar Academy website > > > Upcoming SMA America Solar Academy webinars: English > > and Spanish > > > > > [image: Linkedin Logo] > > > > > > > > This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC > confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or > any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and > permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any > attachments thereto. Thank you. > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan > *Sent:* Saturday, December 18, 2021 6:28 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA arc faults > > > > Hi Mac, > > > > Might I ask what modules these are connected to? There is some history > here with Sunpower modules (and possibly other high power, high voltage > modules). In these cases the issue is the module. If that's the case I can > provide some more detail about it. > > > > As for remote resetting, it is actually possible. Although it takes some > networking knowhow that I am not savvy enough to tell you the specifics. I > believe it is possible to remotely access the inverter through some kind of > port forwarding. So you can always reset the inverter by physically being > there and doing the right power cycle and taps (depending on the inverter > model), but you can also reset the arc fault through the computer (or smart > phone) inverter interface. > > > > There is also one other thing you can try if there is no shading. At least > with the Sunpower module issue, the inverter would always trip when it does > an MPPT sweep. With the optitrac global peak that the sma inverters use, > they do a full MPPT sweep every 6 to 30 minutes. You can turn this off, and > sometimes that will stop the arc faults. But that also means that partial > shading can take out a whole string, rather than just a modules worth of > voltage. > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski < > jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote: > > I haven't seen many, but every one I've seen has been a melted MC4 > connector. > > > > Jason Szumlanski > > Florida Solar Design Group > > > > On Sat, Dec 18, 2021, 3:21 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > > Over the years every SMA arcfault has been real, l am also not saying > hazard, well, AC, welding, all creat Arc noise in the system and it can be > from a normal contactor arc. I have also seen AM arc faults caused by > defective or knock off MC connectors, in adequately stripped wires that > result in the screw down connection on the insulator causing arc in the > connector. > > Jerry > > NABCEP PV Inspestor > > > > > > > > > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- [image: Logo] Dave Tedeyan, P.E. Owner | Sungineer Solar p: he | him | his a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850 w: www.sungineersolar.com c: (607) 288-2898 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 717 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 480 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23174 bytes Desc: not available URL: From allsolarjeremy at msn.com Mon Dec 27 12:55:06 2021 From: allsolarjeremy at msn.com (Jeremy Rodriguez) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 17:55:06 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite HV combiners Message-ID: If anyone has any leftover stock of the midnite MNPV4HV-DISCO3R-DLX-PSB combiner, please contact me off list. Regards, Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com Mon Dec 27 18:13:47 2021 From: jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com (Jason Szumlanski) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 18:13:47 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Incompatible Module with Enphase Microinverters Message-ID: Does anyone know what happens when you put a 72-cell module on an IQ7 that is designed for 60-cell compatibility only? I have "inherited" a site where my initial research appears to indicate they have 300W 72-cell modules on IQ7 microinverters. I might have bad information from what the original installer entered in Enlighten - that remains to be seen. While they have a branch circuit down, the other branch circuit seems to be working completely normally. So I'm thinking they actually have 60-cell panels installed, but I am still curious what would happen if they were, in fact, 72-cell. Would they just fail to produce power when the Vmp exceeds the operating range? Or would they start up at all given that the Voc might be out of range? Curious.... Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com Mon Dec 27 19:57:01 2021 From: nsoleil at enphaseenergy.com (Nick Soleil) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 00:57:01 +0000 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Incompatible Module with Enphase Microinverters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jason, There is a risk of damaging the microinverter if the input voltage goes over the "Max Input Voltage" as listed on the datasheet. The max input voltage is 48Vdc for the IQ 7s and 60Vdc for the IQ 7+ microinverters. You can reference the Enphase Module Compatibility Calculator and see if that specific module is compatible in that specific location. The largest risk of seeing a high voltage at the input terminal will occur on a cold day when the electricity is out or breaker is off. If the utility power is present and in range, then the microinverter will likely be powered up and will pull the DC module voltage down to the Vmp. Cordially, Nick Soleil Enphase Energy Senior Product Manager (707) 763-4784 x7267 // office (707) 321-2937 // cell Powering What’s Next™ | The Enphase Energy Management System NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315 ________________________________ From: RE-wrenches on behalf of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Monday, December 27, 2021 3:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Incompatible Module with Enphase Microinverters EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when responding, clicking, and/or downloading attachments. Does anyone know what happens when you put a 72-cell module on an IQ7 that is designed for 60-cell compatibility only? I have "inherited" a site where my initial research appears to indicate they have 300W 72-cell modules on IQ7 microinverters. I might have bad information from what the original installer entered in Enlighten - that remains to be seen. While they have a branch circuit down, the other branch circuit seems to be working completely normally. So I'm thinking they actually have 60-cell panels installed, but I am still curious what would happen if they were, in fact, 72-cell. Would they just fail to produce power when the Vmp exceeds the operating range? Or would they start up at all given that the Voc might be out of range? Curious.... Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at midnitesolar.com Mon Dec 27 20:40:41 2021 From: bob at midnitesolar.com (bob at midnitesolar.com) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 17:40:41 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Midnite HV combiners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ebe3ff8-9ce9-a119-dc6f-87594ba4ee7e@midnitesolar.com> From higher up... We still make the MNPV4HV-DISCO3R-DLX and we some extra PSB to cover anyone how is short during an installation project.  If Jeremy is ok with new product, we can help him out through his distributor of choice. AND We probably do not advertise it with the PSB because the Birdhouse is now obsolete Happy 2022 ! boB On 12/27/2021 9:55 AM, Jeremy Rodriguez wrote: > If anyone has any leftover stock of the midnite > MNPV4HV-DISCO3R-DLX-PSB  combiner, please contact me off list. > > Regards, > > Jeremy Rodriguez > Solar Installation / Design Expert > All Solar, Inc. > 1453 M St > Penrose Colorado 81240 > > Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address:RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 28 18:31:14 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2021 16:31:14 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale Message-ID: Hello Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Wed Dec 29 09:57:12 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:57:12 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Smell from Radian Message-ID: A 8048 Radian emitted a smell while charging batteries. It smelled like Fritos corn chips. The smell seemed to come out of the exhaust vent on top of the box. Has anyone experienced this? Would you suspect electronic components frying or just some dust? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- From matt at getpimby.com Wed Dec 29 10:50:17 2021 From: matt at getpimby.com (Matt Sherald) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 10:50:17 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optical Sensor for Wattsun Tracker Message-ID: Hi Wrenches, I have a customer in need of an optical sensor for their AZ-225 dual-axis tracker. If you have a spare laying about and want to move it along please contact me off-list. I understand through the customer that sensor replacements from Wattsun are available, but now require the replacement of the old dip-switch controller in addition. This seems a bit pricey so I'm fishing for a less expensive alternative. Many thanks!!! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 29 10:58:49 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:58:49 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001701d7fccc$f8cecf70$ea6c6e50$@solarwork.com> I have used Snapn’Rack’s system with grade beams. It uses a sched 40 - 1½” iron/galv pipe to achieve 90 MPH 3 sec micro burst rating for uplift. Please verify if this is still available from SnR. I am pretty sure that we needed 18# of concrete/sqft of PV module. I would have your structural engineer verify this or whatever your local code calls for. It’s a good system as long as you do not have frost heaving of the ground. I am not sure that I would do this in snow country unless your engineer could guaranty that there is a way to eliminate the frost heave. And if you are going to have to do that much ground prep why not use a pier or footing system? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 4:31 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale Hello Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 29 11:00:18 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:00:18 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optical Sensor for Wattsun Tracker In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101d7fccd$2d9ba7f0$88d2f7d0$@solarwork.com> The new Wattsun controller system is super reliable VS the old system I would do the upgrade….. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Matt Sherald Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 8:50 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Optical Sensor for Wattsun Tracker Hi Wrenches, I have a customer in need of an optical sensor for their AZ-225 dual-axis tracker. If you have a spare laying about and want to move it along please contact me off-list. I understand through the customer that sensor replacements from Wattsun are available, but now require the replacement of the old dip-switch controller in addition. This seems a bit pricey so I'm fishing for a less expensive alternative. Many thanks!!! -- Matt Sherald PIMBY Energy, LLC NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer® 304-704-5943 www.getpimby.blogspot.com www.getpimby.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 29 11:02:25 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:02:25 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Smell from Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002b01d7fccd$791da480$6b58ed80$@solarwork.com> Are your front intake screens clean? Has the owner been gawking in front of the Radian while eating Fritos? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  Please consider the environment before printing this email. -----Original Message----- From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 7:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Smell from Radian A 8048 Radian emitted a smell while charging batteries. It smelled like Fritos corn chips. The smell seemed to come out of the exhaust vent on top of the box. Has anyone experienced this? Would you suspect electronic components frying or just some dust? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 11:05:18 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:05:18 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Smell from Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Drake These inverters are indoor rated so dust cans still get inside and if the humidity is high and there is dirt on the boards they omit an odor now I can not say I have ever smelled corn chips but anything is possible, now to get the important info, how hard was the charge, how long was the charge, what was the ambient temperature, the environment the inverter is residing, condition of the inlet screens, is the room dusty, musty or clean and simi habitable, lastly, can criders get on top of the inverters, On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 6:57 AM wrote: > A 8048 Radian emitted a smell while charging batteries. It smelled like > Fritos corn chips. The smell seemed to come out of the exhaust vent on > top of the box. > > Has anyone experienced this? Would you suspect electronic components > frying or just some dust? > > Thanks, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 11:05:19 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:05:19 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: <001701d7fccc$f8cecf70$ea6c6e50$@solarwork.com> References: <001701d7fccc$f8cecf70$ea6c6e50$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Thanks Dana, Normally I do a piered system for these, but I've got a project with a ground source heat pump loop at unknown depth under the array field. I'm trying to avoid a puncture. Thanks! On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 8:58 AM Dana Orzel wrote: > I have used Snapn’Rack’s system with grade beams. It uses a sched 40 - 1½” > iron/galv pipe to achieve 90 MPH 3 sec micro burst rating for uplift. > Please verify if this is still available from SnR. I am pretty sure that > we needed 18# of concrete/sqft of PV module. I would have your structural > engineer verify this or whatever your local code calls for. > > It’s a good system as long as you do not have frost heaving of the ground. > I am not sure that I would do this in snow country unless your engineer > could guaranty that there is a way to eliminate the frost heave. > > > > And if you are going to have to do that much ground prep why not use a > pier or footing system? > > > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > *C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > * > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" * > > *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Mac Lewis > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 28, 2021 4:31 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on > a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." *-Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- Mac Lewis *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 29 11:08:16 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:08:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Smell from Radian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003601d7fcce$4a9f5ee0$dfde1ca0$@solarwork.com> Another thought – Open up the Radian & do a really thorough compressed air blow out of the cabinet interior? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 9:05 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Smell from Radian Drake These inverters are indoor rated so dust cans still get inside and if the humidity is high and there is dirt on the boards they omit an odor now I can not say I have ever smelled corn chips but anything is possible, now to get the important info, how hard was the charge, how long was the charge, what was the ambient temperature, the environment the inverter is residing, condition of the inlet screens, is the room dusty, musty or clean and simi habitable, lastly, can criders get on top of the inverters, On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 6:57 AM > wrote: A 8048 Radian emitted a smell while charging batteries. It smelled like Fritos corn chips. The smell seemed to come out of the exhaust vent on top of the box. Has anyone experienced this? Would you suspect electronic components frying or just some dust? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 CO Master Electrician’s License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional -- _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 12:26:16 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (jay) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 10:26:16 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: <001701d7fccc$f8cecf70$ea6c6e50$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: Hi Mac, You can check out the unirac GFT which has a engineered ballast in their approved mounting designs. jay peltz power > On Dec 29, 2021, at 9:05 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Thanks Dana, > > Normally I do a piered system for these, but I've got a project with a ground source heat pump loop at unknown depth under the array field. I'm trying to avoid a puncture. > > Thanks! > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 8:58 AM Dana Orzel > wrote: > I have used Snapn’Rack’s system with grade beams. It uses a sched 40 - 1½” iron/galv pipe to achieve 90 MPH 3 sec micro burst rating for uplift. Please verify if this is still available from SnR. I am pretty sure that we needed 18# of concrete/sqft of PV module. I would have your structural engineer verify this or whatever your local code calls for. > > It’s a good system as long as you do not have frost heaving of the ground. I am not sure that I would do this in snow country unless your engineer could guaranty that there is a way to eliminate the frost heave. > > > > And if you are going to have to do that much ground prep why not use a pier or footing system? > > > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Mac Lewis > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 4:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches > > Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale > > > > Hello Wrenches, > > > > Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dana at solarwork.com Wed Dec 29 12:51:56 2021 From: dana at solarwork.com (Dana Orzel) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 10:51:56 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: <001701d7fccc$f8cecf70$ea6c6e50$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <004b01d7fcdc$c5f85570$51e90050$@solarwork.com> Or Pour a solid slab. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 10:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale Hi Mac, You can check out the unirac GFT which has a engineered ballast in their approved mounting designs. jay peltz power On Dec 29, 2021, at 9:05 AM, Mac Lewis > wrote: Thanks Dana, Normally I do a piered system for these, but I've got a project with a ground source heat pump loop at unknown depth under the array field. I'm trying to avoid a puncture. Thanks! On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 8:58 AM Dana Orzel > wrote: I have used Snapn’Rack’s system with grade beams. It uses a sched 40 - 1½” iron/galv pipe to achieve 90 MPH 3 sec micro burst rating for uplift. Please verify if this is still available from SnR. I am pretty sure that we needed 18# of concrete/sqft of PV module. I would have your structural engineer verify this or whatever your local code calls for. It’s a good system as long as you do not have frost heaving of the ground. I am not sure that I would do this in snow country unless your engineer could guaranty that there is a way to eliminate the frost heave. And if you are going to have to do that much ground prep why not use a pier or footing system? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" P Please consider the environment before printing this email. From: RE-wrenches > On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 4:31 PM To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale Hello Wrenches, Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. Thanks in advance! -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.peltz at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 15:27:31 2021 From: jay.peltz at gmail.com (Jay) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 13:27:31 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: <004b01d7fcdc$c5f85570$51e90050$@solarwork.com> References: <004b01d7fcdc$c5f85570$51e90050$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <456D4F6B-A3D0-4F6C-A3B0-99F421C67311@gmail.com> I prefer iron ridge as they have 2” and 3” pipe options which require a lot less bracing than the 1.5” pipe. And they have a 5 panel rail. Jay > On Dec 29, 2021, at 10:52 AM, Dana Orzel wrote: > >  > Or Pour a solid slab. > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of jay > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 10:26 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale > > Hi Mac, > > You can check out the unirac GFT which has a engineered ballast in their approved mounting designs. > > jay > > peltz power > > > On Dec 29, 2021, at 9:05 AM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Thanks Dana, > > Normally I do a piered system for these, but I've got a project with a ground source heat pump loop at unknown depth under the array field. I'm trying to avoid a puncture. > > Thanks! > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 8:58 AM Dana Orzel wrote: > I have used Snapn’Rack’s system with grade beams. It uses a sched 40 - 1½” iron/galv pipe to achieve 90 MPH 3 sec micro burst rating for uplift. Please verify if this is still available from SnR. I am pretty sure that we needed 18# of concrete/sqft of PV module. I would have your structural engineer verify this or whatever your local code calls for. > It’s a good system as long as you do not have frost heaving of the ground. I am not sure that I would do this in snow country unless your engineer could guaranty that there is a way to eliminate the frost heave. > > And if you are going to have to do that much ground prep why not use a pier or footing system? > > > > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Mac Lewis > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 4:31 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale > > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 17:22:36 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:22:36 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Where are you located Jerry On Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 3:31 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on > a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maclewis1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 17:25:26 2021 From: maclewis1 at gmail.com (Mac Lewis) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:25:26 -0700 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jerry, We are located in Western Colorado, Eastern Utah. Thanks On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 3:22 PM Jerry Shafer wrote: > Where are you located > Jerry > > On Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 3:31 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on >> a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com Wed Dec 29 17:28:42 2021 From: jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com (Jerry Shafer) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:28:42 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry a little far, l know of a ground mount sun link system that will be coming down very soon. Jerfy On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:25 PM Mac Lewis wrote: > Hi Jerry, > > We are located in Western Colorado, Eastern Utah. > > Thanks > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 3:22 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote: > >> Where are you located >> Jerry >> >> On Tue, Dec 28, 2021, 3:31 PM Mac Lewis wrote: >> >>> Hello Wrenches, >>> >>> Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered >>> on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Wed Dec 29 23:10:16 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 20:10:16 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b0c9a26-6bae-c9a5-0d13-ae4c1cb00b92@villagepowerdesign.com> Two that I've looked at but never used - I like the use of rock on the second one.  We quoted it for a job at one point and the price was quite reasonable. https://solarmounts.com/ballasted-ground-mount/ https://www.readyracksolar.com/ Hope that helps! Jeff > Mac Lewis > December 28, 2021 at 3:31 PM > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered > on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org Thu Dec 30 10:28:41 2021 From: drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org (drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 10:28:41 -0500 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Smell from Radian In-Reply-To: <003601d7fcce$4a9f5ee0$dfde1ca0$@solarwork.com> References: <003601d7fcce$4a9f5ee0$dfde1ca0$@solarwork.com> Message-ID: <611c0b388735c1a70730349002b18875@redwoodalliance.org> The room is not overly dusty, but a little. The intake screens look clean. The charge was at around 30 ADC and had been going for around an hour. The smell seems to have dissipated, and the unit is still working fine. It must have been due to some particles that had gotten in. Blowing out the interior with compressed air seems like a good suggestion. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 CO Master Electrician's License 4526 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2021-12-29 11:08, Dana Orzel wrote: >> > Another thought - > > Open up the Radian & do a really thorough compressed air blow out of > the cabinet interior? > > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. > > C - 208.721.7003 dana at solarwork.com > > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 > > NABCEP # 051112-136 www.greatsolarworks.com > > "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" > > P Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > From: RE-wrenches On Behalf > Of Jerry Shafer > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 9:05 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Smell from Radian > > Drake > > These inverters are indoor rated so dust cans still get inside and if > the humidity is high and there is dirt on the boards they omit an odor > now I can not say I have ever smelled corn chips but anything is > possible, now to get the important info, how hard was the charge, how > long was the charge, what was the ambient temperature, the environment > the inverter is residing, condition of the inlet screens, is the room > dusty, musty or clean and simi habitable, lastly, can criders get on > top of the inverters, > > On Wed, Dec 29, 2021 at 6:57 AM > wrote: > >> A 8048 Radian emitted a smell while charging batteries. It smelled >> like >> Fritos corn chips. The smell seemed to come out of the exhaust vent on >> top of the box. >> >> Has anyone experienced this? Would you suspect electronic components >> frying or just some dust? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Drake >> >> Drake Chamberlin >> Athens Electric LLC >> Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810 >> CO Master Electrician's License 4526 >> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >> the other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org From lucchesesolar at me.com Thu Dec 30 14:38:08 2021 From: lucchesesolar at me.com (Nick A Lucchese) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 11:38:08 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings Mac, I recently have been investigating the use of Nuance’s Osprey product solution. Doesn’t necessarily fall under the ballasted category and since you’re trying to avoid the heat pump lines it may not fit your strategy either but I really like the option of getting away from pouring concrete. The anchors are set 40-65” deep. For smaller projects it seems like the cost may be somewhat prohibitive due to shipping logistics but appears like they price out affordably once you purchase a bit of specialized equipment and get around the freight costs. That ReadyRack geo-ballast looks quite cool too Jeff, thanks for the link on that. Best of luck, Nick > On Dec 28, 2021, at 3:31 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Thu Dec 30 16:30:57 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 13:30:57 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <938ec4dd-b053-c4e8-7c79-cf82d97fc001@villagepowerdesign.com> Wow cool product Nick!  Anyone have actual experience? I've been thinking that the concrete beam systems (above grade pre-engineered rectangular blocks like solarmounts.com) really could be used for any ground mount rack system (Unirac, IronRidge, SnapNRack, SolarMounts, ReadyRack, etc.)  in other words many ground mount systems could be bolted to an above grade concrete beam - would just need a sign off on uplift by an engineer at the worst or just apply existing engineering models.  Many manufacturers already off that option and probably provide the engineering. This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only offering ballast systems to large system buyers. Which makes me think that If I tried a Nuance system and the soil didn't work out for the cable pull you could then just bolt them down to a concrete beam system as a plan b. Thoughts?  Experience anyone? best, jc > Nick A Lucchese > December 30, 2021 at 11:38 AM > Greetings Mac, > > I recently have been investigating the use of Nuance’s Osprey >  product solution. Doesn’t necessarily fall > under the ballasted category and since you’re trying to avoid the heat > pump lines it may not fit your strategy either but I really like the > option of getting away from pouring concrete. The anchors are set > 40-65” deep. For smaller projects it seems like the cost may be > somewhat prohibitive due to shipping logistics but appears like they > price out affordably once you purchase a bit of specialized equipment > and get around the freight costs. > > That ReadyRack geo-ballast looks quite cool too Jeff, thanks for the > link on that. > > Best of luck, Nick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Mac Lewis > December 28, 2021 at 3:31 PM > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered > on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From habitek83 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 31 07:11:41 2021 From: habitek83 at yahoo.com (Tom) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 06:11:41 -0600 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ground Mount References: <524F68B8-7E82-46AD-9671-345F8966CBAE.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <524F68B8-7E82-46AD-9671-345F8966CBAE@yahoo.com> https://www.gripple.com/solar-solutions/solar-structural-solutions/ Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com Fri Dec 31 12:29:58 2021 From: jeffc at villagepowerdesign.com (Jeff Clearwater) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 09:29:58 -0800 Subject: [RE-wrenches] ballasted ground mounts residential scale In-Reply-To: <938ec4dd-b053-c4e8-7c79-cf82d97fc001@villagepowerdesign.com> References: <938ec4dd-b053-c4e8-7c79-cf82d97fc001@villagepowerdesign.com> Message-ID: <135421ca-df1d-ea91-5e6d-e778c37752f0@villagepowerdesign.com> I mispoke: "This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only offering ballast systems to large system buyers." What I meant to say is utilizing concrete grade beams as foundations for existing residential and small commerical ground mount solutions could expand the options that we installers have for ground mount solutions since most offerings for pre-engineered solutions are intended for the utility scale market. jc > Jeff Clearwater > December 30, 2021 at 1:30 PM > Wow cool product Nick!  Anyone have actual experience? > > I've been thinking that the concrete beam systems (above grade > pre-engineered rectangular blocks like solarmounts.com) really could > be used for any ground mount rack system (Unirac, IronRidge, > SnapNRack, SolarMounts, ReadyRack, etc.)  in other words many ground > mount systems could be bolted to an above grade concrete beam - would > just need a sign off on uplift by an engineer at the worst or just > apply existing engineering models.  Many manufacturers already off > that option and probably provide the engineering. > > This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only > offering ballast systems to large system buyers. > > Which makes me think that If I tried a Nuance system and the soil > didn't work out for the cable pull you could then just bolt them down > to a concrete beam system as a plan b. > > Thoughts?  Experience anyone? > > best, > > jc > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Jeff Clearwater > December 30, 2021 at 1:01 PM > Wow cool product Nick!  Anyone have actual experience? > > I've been thinking that the concrete beam systems (above grade > pre-engineered rectangular blocks like solarmounts.com) really could > be used for any ground mount rack system (Unirac, IronRidge, > SnapNRack, SolarMounts, ReadyRack, etc.)  in other words many ground > mount systems could be bolted to an above grade concrete beam - would > just need a sign off on uplift by an engineer at the worst or just > apply existing engineering models.  Many manufacturers already off > that option and probably provide the engineering. > > This might expand small system options for those manufacturers only > offering ballast systems to large system buyers. > > Which makes me think that If I tried a Nuance system and the soil > didn't work out for the cable pull you could then just bolt them down > to a concrete beam system as a plan b. > > Thoughts?  Experience anyone? > > best, > > jc > > > > > Nick A Lucchese > December 30, 2021 at 11:38 AM > Greetings Mac, > > I recently have been investigating the use of Nuance’s Osprey >  product solution. Doesn’t necessarily fall > under the ballasted category and since you’re trying to avoid the heat > pump lines it may not fit your strategy either but I really like the > option of getting away from pouring concrete. The anchors are set > 40-65” deep. For smaller projects it seems like the cost may be > somewhat prohibitive due to shipping logistics but appears like they > price out affordably once you purchase a bit of specialized equipment > and get around the freight costs. > > That ReadyRack geo-ballast looks quite cool too Jeff, thanks for the > link on that. > > Best of luck, Nick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Mac Lewis > December 28, 2021 at 3:31 PM > Hello Wrenches, > > Can anyone recommend a ballasted ground mount solution that is offered > on a residential scale? Below 10kW typically. > > Thanks in advance! > > -- > > > > Mac Lewis > > * > > "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates > > * > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try > the other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: