[RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng

Thu Nov 19 08:48:01 EST 2020

All good info.

I plan to take my FLIR One out next time. I can paint it white in both
cases I suppose.

As for the temps, the high ambient here is 93ºF per ASHRAE. Inside attics,
we can see temps exceeding 140ºF here. We don't derate conductors for that.
I'm not sure where 114ºF comes from, but I get the point. The interior of
the enclosure can certainly get blazing hot. This definitely seems to be a
heat-related issue whether the NEC intent has been met or not. Upping the
tap conductors to #4 or larger would not be difficult or expensive to
accomplish. I will likely make that our new standard for 50A and 60A
calculated circuits for supply-side interconnections made outdoors.

Jason

On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 8:13 PM Ray <ray at solarray.com> wrote:

> What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the
> terminals?  I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the
> fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle.  Have you
> looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its
> hot on one end of the fuse?
>
> Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the
> enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6
> conductor.  Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is
> rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets
> you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just
> calculated for continuous duty.
>
> What color is the disconnect painted?  any chance of painting it white?
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>
> Jason,
> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun?
> 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also
> baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over
> the edge? Just a thought.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason
>>
>> Any chance for some photos?
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase
>> IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We
>> reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side
>> interconnection using Polaris taps).
>>
>> Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue
>> yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located
>> on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ
>> Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined
>> inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with
>> #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors
>> on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper
>> is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current
>> around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days.
>>
>> I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the
>> blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals.
>>
>> For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to
>> replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A
>> disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a
>> better test. I might also switch brands.
>>
>> Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time
>> Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to
>> this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan
>> of fuse reducers, however.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No
>>> weather-related correlation.
>>>
>>> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but
>>> previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jason
>>>>
>>>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR
>>>> tool.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher
>>>> air temp is causing it to fail.
>>>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed
>>>> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool
>>>> during peak heat would be  a good test.
>>>>
>>>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s
>>>> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over
>>>> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker
>>>> ( CBI  vs CH etc) would have worked?
>>>>
>>>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun?  Is there any Correlation between
>>>>  high ambient temperatures and tripping?
>>>>
>>>> It sure would keep me up at night too
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was
>>>> wrong.
>>>>
>>>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We
>>>> had a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run
>>>> another branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So
>>>> the issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why.
>>>>
>>>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now.
>>>> In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect.
>>>> The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We
>>>> can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There
>>>> are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is
>>>> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the
>>>> individual branch circuit breakers.
>>>>
>>>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because
>>>> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one
>>>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit
>>>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable
>>>> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options.
>>>>
>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's
>>>>> one of my early diagnostic steps for something like this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis <maclewis1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Jason,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed
>>>>>> somewhere, meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2?
>>>>>> That could explain two different breakers tripping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check
>>>>>>> after the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors,
>>>>>>> even when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very
>>>>>>> long and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in
>>>>>>> small j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no
>>>>>>> evidence of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not
>>>>>>> correlated to rain events.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we
>>>>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the
>>>>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between
>>>>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is
>>>>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters
>>>>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to
>>>>>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how
>>>>>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post <
>>>>>>> integrityenergy101 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit
>>>>>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main
>>>>>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I
>>>>>>>> showed up onsite.  The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall
>>>>>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner
>>>>>>>> panel.  Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off
>>>>>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there.  I went on the roof and
>>>>>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination
>>>>>>>> caps.  1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the
>>>>>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof.  The
>>>>>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the
>>>>>>>> rail…
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <IE LOGO 150x78.jpg>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>        Amos Post
>>>>>>>>    Integrity Energy
>>>>>>>>   W 802.763.7023
>>>>>>>>    C 802.291.2188
>>>>>>>>     ienergyVT.com
>>>>>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3d62f76a530747b19a4154eb2e2b0d2548eee0a0?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ienergyvt.com&userId=1613865&signature=6df658aa959a645e>
>>>>>>>>         Facebook
>>>>>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/d6455a016d2384afbd80a78dab5594aee31be9f3?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fintegrityenergyllp%3Fref%3Dhl&userId=1613865&signature=8d22e279508a21c8>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The breaker in the main panel IS tripping simultaneously with one
>>>>>>>> of the branch circuit breakers each time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 12:43 PM Jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A question that keeps nagging me is why do these breakers trip and
>>>>>>>>> not the breaker in the main panel?
>>>>>>>>> Presuming there is a 40 amp in the main
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would have thought that given all the times the breakers have
>>>>>>>>> tripped at some point that one would have tripped and I can’t understand
>>>>>>>>> why not?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jay
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarage01 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Wrenches
>>>>>>>>> Looking g at the bigger breaker tripping at the same time is very
>>>>>>>>> likely do to response time of the breaker nothing more. As l suggested in a
>>>>>>>>> previous message. Use a non bridged breaker to see if it is one or both
>>>>>>>>> legs that trip. Also an eguage will help to see what if anything leads up
>>>>>>>>> to the failure and when.
>>>>>>>>> Jerry
>>>>>>>>> Jerry
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 7:58 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder about that. Of course, it could be the "inverter output
>>>>>>>>>> circuit" having a fault in the wiring still (an intermittent issue
>>>>>>>>>> somewhere within the IQ cable or home run wiring). But internal to the
>>>>>>>>>> microinverter, is it possible that a fault could still occur at night? I
>>>>>>>>>> had a suggestion from another wrench that there are film capacitors on the
>>>>>>>>>> AC output side, but are these isolated when there is no DC input? It seems
>>>>>>>>>> unlikely that this would be an issue, but I have seen microinverters
>>>>>>>>>> reporting a couple of watts at night (in Enlighten). I'm not sure how real
>>>>>>>>>> that is.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The overriding question I have is what kind of fault would cause
>>>>>>>>>> BOTH a branch circuit and the main solar breaker to trip simultaneously?
>>>>>>>>>> That seems odd to me. If any normal load branch circuit has a fault, you
>>>>>>>>>> don't often see premises main breakers tripping, or even feeder circuit
>>>>>>>>>> breakers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking that maybe there is some kind of issue between
>>>>>>>>>> the BR220 and CH240 breakers not playing nicely together. But I would think
>>>>>>>>>> this would be a well-known issue because I'm sure there are tons of CH
>>>>>>>>>> feeder breakers in the wild with BR branch circuits downstream.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 9:25 AM <
>>>>>>>>>> drake.chamberlin at redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If it trips at night, we know it is not the output from the
>>>>>>>>>>> inverters causing the tripping. The current must be coming from the grid.
>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2020-06-01 12:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's not weather. It's at all times of the day and night, and I
>>>>>>>>>>> confirmed that there is no correlation to rain or high winds. That was my
>>>>>>>>>>> first suspicion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 10:27 AM Ray <ray at solarray.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is it at all weather related?  Rain, or high humidity?  High
>>>>>>>>>>> temperatures?  Do you have any indication what time of day it trips off at?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters
>>>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar
>>>>>>>>>>> 303 505-8760
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/1/20 10:23 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that didn't resolve it. The main breaker and a branch
>>>>>>>>>>> circuit breaker tripped again a few days ago. It was the same branch this
>>>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As my next diagnostic step I swapped two circuits (on which
>>>>>>>>>>> breaker they are landed). If history is a guide, it will work for about two
>>>>>>>>>>> weeks and then trip again.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm dumbfounded. I really don't want to have to tear this whole
>>>>>>>>>>> system apart. At this point, if I have to remove all the modules, I feel
>>>>>>>>>>> that I need to replace all of the trunk cable which is an expensive
>>>>>>>>>>> proposition. I really don't know what else to do at this point.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 25, 2020, 10:43 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>>>>>>>>>> jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I strongly suspect the CH240 combined breaker was compromised
>>>>>>>>>>> (we will see). Since it happened that two different strings tripped, I
>>>>>>>>>>> doubt I have two microinverters with internal faults. It has to be the
>>>>>>>>>>> combined breaker. I was just surprised that branch circuit breakers were
>>>>>>>>>>> tripping simultaneously with the combined output breaker.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Of all the supply side connected systems I have installed, I
>>>>>>>>>>> have never seen a combined output fusible disconnect fuse blow, but I have
>>>>>>>>>>> seen many combined output breakers tripped. I was worried early on that I
>>>>>>>>>>> would be replacing fuses constantly, but that has not been an issue
>>>>>>>>>>> whatsoever.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:15 AM <scot.arey at solarcentex.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, we had a IQ7 string loaded up to its max panel size
>>>>>>>>>>> and max string length and in the spring on cool, clear day, it tripped the
>>>>>>>>>>> string's associated breaker in the Enphase combiner.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We reset but of course that breaker was impaired and it tripped
>>>>>>>>>>> again. We replaced and never had an issue going forward. We suspect the
>>>>>>>>>>> breaker was less than perfect from the start as we've add equally nice days
>>>>>>>>>>> since.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This almost reminds me of loading up Outback FM80. It says 4,000
>>>>>>>>>>> watts but in reality, 3,600 is the max when amps spike. I will be extra
>>>>>>>>>>> careful going forward on IQ7 string length when going to the max
>>>>>>>>>>> published...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My story.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scot
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> *On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 21, 2020 8:57 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm trying to resolve an intermittent frustrating problem with
>>>>>>>>>>> and Enphase IQ system. There are three AC Branch circuits of 9
>>>>>>>>>>> microinverters each coming into an Enphase AC combiner.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What has been happening is one of the BR220 branch circuit
>>>>>>>>>>> breakers and the combine CH240 breaker in the main backfed load center have
>>>>>>>>>>> been tripping simultaneously. It has happened about four times in the last
>>>>>>>>>>> 6 months. It was always the same branch circuit breaker, so we kept
>>>>>>>>>>> investigating that string, checking the junction box, trunk cable, and cap,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc. Finally we swapped out the BR220 breaker.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fast forward 4 weeks, and we got another call. This time a
>>>>>>>>>>> different branch circuit breaker and the main breaker tripped
>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously. We checked that branch circuit and could not find any
>>>>>>>>>>> fault. It seems unlikely that two branch circuit breakers would be faulty,
>>>>>>>>>>> so we have now switched out the CH240 main breaker in hopes that it is the
>>>>>>>>>>> culprit.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not totally confident in this resolution and I have my
>>>>>>>>>>> fingers crossed. If that doesn't work, does anyone have any suggestions on
>>>>>>>>>>> another diagnostic step? These intermittent problems are a major hassle.
>>>>>>>>>>> One thought I had was to switch to a supply side interconnection with a
>>>>>>>>>>> fusible disconnect. Maybe the intermittent fault would blow one of the two
>>>>>>>>>>> line fuses so at least I could narrow it down to which line the fault is on
>>>>>>>>>>> if there is in fact a fault.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have experienced two other tripping breaker issues with
>>>>>>>>>>> Enphase systems in the past. Neither of them were systems I installed. One
>>>>>>>>>>> turned out to be branch circuits that were not properly paired up and
>>>>>>>>>>> landed on different breakers. Another time we had an inverter with an
>>>>>>>>>>> internal fault which eventually"blew up" with a loud popping noise and
>>>>>>>>>>> smoke billowing out of it. That happened after resetting a trip breaker
>>>>>>>>>>> multiple times. This case seems to be unrelated to those issues. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> perplexed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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