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Bruce Bosworth
San Diego Solar Install 619-600-8087.Your Friends in solar energy
 www.sandiegosolarinstall.com
(C-46 Solar Contractor)

On Sep 13, 2020, at 8:06 AM, Jason Szumlanski <jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

If the home is built for that purpose, for sure it is possible. Most retrofit situations don't work out so well. And SW Florida is a different animal compared to Miami, Central, and North Florida. We don't get a breeze this time of year, and humidity is ridiculous. It's a real challenge. I have seen a 12 kbtu unit on a well-insulated outbuilding unable to keep up. A new off-grid design I am working on now with six 400 sq ft cottages has an 18 kbtu unit spec'd for each cottage. On the other hand, those mini-splits are good for dehumidification only if the cottage is unoccupied. That's why they are doing a separate compressor and air handler pair for each cottage.

My 3,000 sq ft home is old with two aging AC units (3.5 and 2 ton). They are barely able to keep up this time of year in the afternoons. I have a 10kW PV system and my utility bill goes from slightly negative in April to 2,500 kWh in August. That's all air conditioning essentially. I have calculated that I could save about 1,000 kWh with AC upgrades and other efficiency measures, but the numbers don't make financial sense to do so. Here's a pretty representative day in September:

<image.png>

(Side note: don't you wish you could have this data before designing a system for an off-grid home?)

Almost every single day I hear, "but Tesla's website says I can run my whole house with air conditioning and electric water heating on two Powerwalls." Consumers put way too much trust in those online calculators. Most people we run into have AC compressors with LRA of 80-105, so you need four Powerwalls by the specs just to start it up. I know... add a soft start capacitor... but then you end up with not enough capacity to get through a cloudy afternoon and night, and usually not enough PV the next day to replenish this time of year.

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <offgridsolar at sti.net<mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>> wrote:

Hi Ray,

They run at night set at 77f. We use a 1 ton, 12,000 btu and a 2nd spare for day use. The spare is rarely needed. These are near 30 SEER, the most expensive model in each make. LG, Mitsu, Fujitsu.  Just after dawn when the array is lit, we drop the program temp to 74 or so.

Most HVAC will tell you this won't work. I have been doing this since 2007 when they started coming out in the US. They sip power at night like a small child :) The HVAC people have the mentality that you need to cool a hot house down in 30 minutes and that is how they size. Offgrid, we never let it get that hot, as we live there and can leave it on. There is no power bill except the big one at the beginning!

There are a few other strategies I use also.  Right now it is full smoke here from the wildfires, the whole 1800 sqft house is using 400 watts and it is 74 in and 86 outside. We often have 100 degree weather and it does use more. In smoke like this, the split pressurizes the home and aids in keeping smoke outside also. That is a very nice thing. Some of the folks in the area just got PG &E back after the PSPS. Not fun for them! Take a peek at my picture link on the webpage below.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
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On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:51:39 -0600, Ray <ray at solarray.com<mailto:ray at solarray.com>> wrote:

What size Air Conditioners? Those seem like really small battery banks for that.  I suppose they just run in the day mostly when the sun is shinning?

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/12/20 3:25 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

I have 5 clients in Florida running mini-split heat pumps offgrid. The smallest is a 13 kwh useable and the rest running L16 2v cells @ 48v nominal.  Not trying to be a contrarian but with a 2,000 square foot house with great insulation and SEER numbers around 30, it is not that hard. Need alot of solar, and virtual tracking for the afternoon thunderstorms in the south also.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/614ed1667820110fd29c4e659b5ec6c0d10e1115?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.sti.net%2Foffgridsolar%2F&userId=1613865&signature=20af73b64f2a9193>
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On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 12:54:39 -0400, Jason Szumlanski <jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com><mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this time of year, sometimes substantially more.

Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for mission-critical grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge Powerwalls with a generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads straight off the generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for the whole home. It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental charging at least with a small portable unit.

There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no cost-effective solution.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers <august at luminalt.com<mailto:august at luminalt.com>> wrote:
Hi Bill -

I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications. Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just won't cut it for those critical applications.

But, yes, good point.

August

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy <frenergy at psln.com<mailto:frenergy at psln.com>> wrote:

August,

            Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a very bad thing not to have Gen input.  The current situation here in Plumas county  (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example.  It is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for almost a month with only occasional breaks.  There are also CC failures, FET board craps out, other excrement occurs.

            We all know there are many critical needs for power especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood, bad weather) medical needs, etc.  In the winter there are at least a few times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be a spendy array and battery.  Certainly, the idea of going that route works for some scenarios but not off-grid.  Generators are still a much needed necessary evil.  Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an inverter??  Sounds like bean counting.

My $.02 worth

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
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On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote:
In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage. Even Generac might be going that route.

August

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski <jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com<mailto:jason at floridasolardesigngroup.com>> wrote:
We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange label? Crazy.

No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator manufacturer.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer <chris at solarandwindfx.com<mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com>> wrote:
Jeremy,
Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck.

Christopher

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez <allsolarjeremy at msn.com<mailto:allsolarjeremy at msn.com>> wrote:
If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY support group, please contact me off list.
Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters rebuilt/repaired let me know.

Jeremy Rodriguez
Solar Installation / Design Expert
All Solar, Inc.
1463 M St
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
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