[RE-wrenches] Outback FM100

Tue May 19 17:48:10 EDT 2020

Yeah, I was going to say, I don't think a coms failure of any kind could take down an Outback charge controller. Coms failures can certainly impact Outback inverters that are stacked...

I always insist on using a Mate3s on Outback jobs where it's a large enough system that it doesn't impact the total cost too much, but on tiny systems, it can be cost-prohibitive. I'm not an Outback only guy, but over the last 9 years of being in the off-grid business, I've used more Outback than all other brands combined. The main reason I always try to use a Mate3s is that from an installer's perspective, a system will be more trouble-free if the customer can understand what's going on (how much they're using, how much solar they're getting, and how full the batteries are), and the Mate3 is the most userfriendly interface I have seen anywhere. Victron has an interface that might be second best, but it makes the Mate3s look cheap. Secondly, a system will be more trouble-free when you can troubleshoot the system over the phone. 3/4 of the service calls I get where the customer has an Outback system can be fixed by the customer over the phone because they all have the Mate 3 or Mate3s, so they can read me the event logged in the events screen, and I can tell them which buttons to push, etc.

I can think of all the times where a customer's aging generator doesn't put out as much power as it once did, and the AC Input Amps needs to be reduced, or the generator doesn't run as well when it's super cold out, so it needs to be reduced, or the customer overloaded the inverter and didn't realize it, now they know why it shut off without a service call... and the list goes on. The Mate 3 was a point of failure that caused a few service calls on its own, none of which shut down a system, but it saved me so many trips and service calls that overall, I'm certain that it has saved me hundreds of miles over the last 9 years. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, this means that it makes the system more reliable. Now, I realize that in this group, I'm still kind of green, only having been working off-grid for 9 years, and I realize that almost none of what I've said would apply to the old mate... that thing was so terribly non-user friendly that I've never met an off-gridder in Utah who actually knew how to use his old Mate, though early on, most had one.

-Kienan

Maxfield Solar
maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldsolar at hotmail.com>
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
________________________________
From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-bounces at lists.re-wrenches.org> on behalf of Ray <ray at solarray.com>
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 10:45 AM
To: re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org <re-wrenches at lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100

I've had them shut inverters down for both the brands you mentioned.  The comm failures that took out controllers were the Midnite "Follow Me" setup.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/17/20 9:46 PM, Jay wrote:
Hi Ray

In my experience I’ve had plenty of hub and component/comm failures but I’ve never had it shut down the fndc or charge controllers with OB or Schneider equipment.

I’m wondering if you have?

Thx

Jay

Peltz power.

On May 17, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Ray <ray at solarray.com><mailto:ray at solarray.com> wrote:

I don't connect to the HUB or Mate if I don't have to; both to avoid issues with the customers changing programming, but also to save the customer money.  However, the #1 reason is that when all the equipment is interconnected, it is all dependent.  A failure in a comm cable or single piece of equipment can cause all the controllers to shut down.  I just don't think the benefits of com connection out weigh the loss of redundancy.  I have many systems with multiple charge controllers, and I have seen everything from a bad temp sensor to a single failed controller take the other controllers off line too.  Without the interconnection, a failed controller will just drop the system to half power, not to zero production.

This isn't just with Outback, I follow this reasoning with Midnite and Magnum as well.  I often mix equipment (Magnum inverter, Outback Controller) so comm connection isn't a possibility anyway.  We might be missing some bells and whistles, but our systems stay operational in more situations.   Basically I'm not happy enough with any single manufacturer to give them a monopoly with my designs.  I've always built our systems with the best equipment we can get for that particular situation.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 5/17/20 7:38 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:
Hi Ray,

I'm curious, do you avoid have the FM100 on the Hub to avoid clients changing the programming or have you seen some other issues?  I have some of them out there and they seem to be solid, all Hub 10.3 connected.

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:48 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <offgridsolar at sti.net<mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>> wrote:

I have little experience with arc fault detection because I do not use them offgrid. Could it save one from starting a wildfire? My experience is I have never had a ground mount start a wildfire and even a bad panel is pretty contained in a failure.

I just know that I make a small fortune replacing grid tie inverter AFD's that failsafe in the no solar mode. Definitely do not want another way to lose power offgrid. There are plenty already:)

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridsolar at sti.net<mailto:offgridsolar at sti.net>
text 209 813 0060

On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:03:11 -0700, Jay <jay.peltz at gmail.com<mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi William,

that warning isn't on the AFCI one,

Jay

Peltz power.

On May 15, 2020, at 10:41 AM, William Miller <william at millersolar.com<mailto:william at millersolar.com>> wrote:

Jay:

On the FM100 landing page<http://outbackpower.com/products/charge-controllers/flexmax-100>.  The warning is pasted below.

Due to the different voltage ratings, OutBack Power does not recommend mixing the FM100-300VDC with the FM60 or FM80-150VDC controllers on the same battery bank.

Interestingly the warning is not seen on the FM100 AFCI landing page<http://outbackpower.com/products/charge-controllers/flexmax-100-afci>.

I thought I saw this also in one of the Owner's manuals but I looked today and can't find it there.  Interesting...

I have a client that wants to add a fourth PV array to a system with three FM80s.  This will require a fourth charge controller.  Being able to run smaller wire in the existing conduits is an attractive proposition, making the FM100 a desirable approach.  I now have to figure out if I can add the FM100-AFCI (which is apparently the only version available) to a system with three FM80s, and if I do, what do I do with the existing GFDI breaker and how do I arrange the DC bond?  There is a lot to consider here.

BTW, I was told by a tech support person for an on-line sales firm that the original FM100 did not have the AFCI but those units have been discontinued.  Now all FM100s have the AFCI capability.  I am weighing if I want AFCI if it is not required.  My territory includes central California wild lands so I suppose I should take advantage of any fire safety means at my disposal...

William

From: Jay [mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com<mailto:jay.peltz at gmail.com>]
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 7:34 AM
To: william at millersolar.com<mailto:william at millersolar.com>; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM100

Hi William

Yes downsizing breaker to meet load is no problem. And getting wire that big into it with 1" KO is a pain.

I'm pretty sure any hub will work, needs 3S mate

Where in the manual did you find the "don't mix with other 60/80 controllers?

Jay

Peltz power

On May 15, 2020, at 12:46 AM, William Miller <william at millersolar.com<mailto:william at millersolar.com>> wrote:

Friends:

I have occasion to try the FM100 charge controller.  I am wondering of anyone had found any quirks with implementing this device.  I have a few specific questions:

1.       I want to avoid AFCI unless mandated.  Will this be defeated if I don't run the leads through the sense coil? (There is an AFCI and non-AFCI version but I can't seem to find the non-AFCI version anywhere.)

2.       I noticed the manual indicates you are not supposed to mix the FM100 with the FM80 or 60 in the same battery system.  This negates it for one project I had in mind.  I am curious as to why this is.  Anyone know?

3.       Will the FM100 work with a standard hub?

4.       I suppose this unit requires a 125 amp breaker.  If the PV array cannot support that full 100 amps I might down-size the OCPD accordingly.  Anyone contemplate this question?

Thanks in advance.

William

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Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

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